[Archetype Idea] Knight of the Reliquary + Weathered Wayfarer = Profit?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, this is not quite a complete deck idea, but I was thinking about ways to use the card Knight of the Reliquary that's rumored to be in Conflux. Here's the link to an alleged picture of the card: http://cdn1.libsyn.com/themagicsock/KnightoftheReliquaryPreviewTMSJan23.jpg?nvb=20090125113358&nva=20090126114358&t=09724cec39a8f1749c389

So basically, the idea I had is to combine this with Weathered Wayfarer, since they're both pretty inexpensive creatures that let you search your library for any land... Wasteland is obviously the most likely candidate to exploit this tutor effect, maybe even backed up by Ghost Quarter or Rishadan Port for even more mana lockdown. Windswept Heath is also a standout candidate, since it sends itself to the graveyard and fetches Forests or Plains for the Knight. Other creatures that would work well with this strategy are Terravore, (maybe) Gigapede, and *sigh* Tarmogoyf.

This gives us a nice way to tutor for mana denial, and perhaps man-lands, like Treetop Village. I think Armageddon could also be good, since it would simultaneously pump our win conditions and stall the opponent from being able to defend themselves.

Most likely, we're going to want some sort of engine to recur Wasteland with, and the two best ones are Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam. I think Loam is the stronger in this deck shell, since it combines with the cycling lands to make a more effective draw engine than Crucible + Horizon Canopy... although I'm sure there are arguments for Crucible, probably the best of which is that you don't need to pay mana for it turn after turn... Honestly, I'm not sure which of these two engines would be best.

So basically, my idea as it is so far based on these two cards puts us in White/Green, possibly with room to splash a third color. The strengths of Knight of the Reliquary that I think we need to build on are 1.) the ability to tutor lands, and 2.) the ability to get bigger with more lands in the graveyard.

Here's how I think the deck should look:
*BEATERS
*MANA DENIAL
*LAND RECURSION ENGINE
*LOTS OF LANDS TO ABUSE KNIGHT OF THE RELIQUARY/WAYFARER

...........So, does anyone have ideas? Most importantly, does Knight of the Reliquary seem worth it to build a deck around him???????


(Here's a rough sketch of what this could look like:)

4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Armageddon
4 Life from the Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Solitary Confinement

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Plains

[Poron]

in my opinion may be we'll see this card in 2-3x in aggro Loam.

but surely not a card to build an archetype on.

[KillemallCFH]

22 Lands is a bit light if you want to support Mox Diamond. I think a couple or O-Rings can probably stand to be cut. With 4 Knights/4 Wayfayers, I'd also really like to see a couple of tutorable utility lands in there. Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Nantuko Monastery, Kor Haven, Boseju (Uncounterable Geddon FTW?), Nomad Stadium, Horizon Canopy, and Vitu-Ghazi all come to mind.

[SpikeyMikey]

The best argument for the crucible shell is exactly that; you don't need to pay mana every turn. This comes into play post geddon, when you don't have any mana. Granted, if you've got a 'vore down, you probably don't care, but if you're popping geddon earlier, you could conceivably miss a land drop. You also won't likely be activating wayfarer in the late game, since you're not missing drops and your opponent will be.

A couple of thoughts: It's a cute idea, and I like it, it's fun, but it's never going to be competitive. You have no game against combo, you're so slow that gobbos/affinity will run over you, and CB will wreck your face. O-Ring is not going to resolve if it's the only must-counter 3cc spell you've got; geddon can be played around, once they've got CB+top down, they can take all the time in the world.

[Captain Hammer]

Here are some cards that you should consider playing...

Mishra's Factory/Treetop Village
Maze of Ith (as a one of)
Flagstones of Trokair
The other good utility lands in 43 lands
Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale (combos well with your Armageddon + Flagstones)
consider Crucible of Worlds in place of or along side Life from the Loam

[bowvamp]

I actually was thinking about this card as a creature in UGw Threshold. It acts like a mana elf/ fetchland creator/ beater/ utility finder all in one.

[Mordel]

Outpost seems better than shitu-ghazi shitty tree.

Four geddons seems like too many, weathered wayfarers seem like they may be cut eventually. You need to consider what you will be playing this deck against and look at the lack of utility. Waste locks are nice, but I am not sure if they're nice enough to be the main trick in this deck's bag.

I see the knight having a lot of potential in a d&t sort of deck.

You also need more lands for sure. Don't cut the o-rings though because pithing needle seems like it could rape you.

[GreenOne]

Here's what I wrote about knight in the Aggroloam Thread:

I'd love a deck with 3-4 Knight, 4 Terravores, 4 Crusher, 4 Goyfs and 4 Vials
With so many creatures you should always have a couple of drops for vial when it reaches the third counter. And it's not like the deck doesn't use the free mana while Vial is charging :wink:
This way you also have an amazing curve at 1 too, vith vial and some number of STP (if it's needed).

So I believe this card is made for AggroLoam. There's almost no reason to build another shell when aggroloam is already a deck to beat. The wayfarer is nice, but other decks are going to play little lands too. It also is a nombo with 'Geddon effects.

What I'm suggesting is take those ideas and bring them in the AggroLoam thread, where GRbw Loam is already played, and try to modify those decks to fit in a toolbox of lands to tutor.

Or try to find an old Terrageddon list and make it your starting point.

[Maveric78f]

I think that this creature is more suited for control loam than for aggro loam, since it's a worse attacker than terravore but a very good control element as well as being a very good blocker and finisher.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think that this creature is more suited for control loam than for aggro loam, since it's a worse attacker than terravore but a very good control element as well as being a very good blocker and finisher.

This is kind of how I see it too. I'm sure people will make versions of RGB Aggro Loam and try to squeeze in Knight of the Reliquary, but I'm not sure whether that deck is tuned to make the best use out of KotR... I'm still brainstorming on whether or not a straight W/G version would be competitive. In my mind the question is whether white and green have enough control game on their own to keep the board clear until we can Armageddon with a decent creature in play FTW.

I see KotR belonging in an aggro-control style deck that uses a lot of tempo control combined with mana denial to keep them behind on their game plan.

I think Weathered Wayfarer will probably end up getting the ax eventually, because he's nowhere near as effective as Knight at tutoring for lands, and playing a 1/1 dork sort of slows down establishing control. If we have one, I think the one-drop creature should be Birds of Paradise.

I think Ghost Quarter would make a good one-of in this deck also, as a way to recursively kill basic lands until they run out of them. There are quite a few lands that would make awesome one-of's for us, like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, etc.

Here's how I imagine the best deck for Knight of the Reliquary would look:

*First and foremost, it would probably be mostly white, because white provides better resources for control than green does, and these are the Knight's two colors. I think it's debatable whether the deck would be better splashing a third color or not.

*The best way to take advantage of the Knight is to feed it enough Plains/Forests, and use it alongside a land recursion package to tutor lands that are either good with Crucible (Wasteland, Horizon Canopy, etc.), threaten the opponent (Mishra's Factory, maybe Treetop Village, etc.), or that are good for control strategies (Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, maybe even Glacial Chasm?...) And then, of course, we should recur the Plainses and Forestses, and rinse and repeat.

*As far as the creature package, I think Knight belongs in a deck with 4 Terravores, done deal. Tarmogoyf looks good because, well... it's Tarmogoyf. I also really like Eternal Witness, because it recurs threats and Armageddons. Sakura Tribe Elder chump blocks and searches for lands to feed to Knight of the Reliquary. The idea is to take a little damage over the first few turns, chump block, and then keep the opponent off their mana as much as possible by knocking them in the ass by recurring Armageddon and Wasteland turn after turn and hitting them with Goyfs or whatever until they stop breathing.

*So, in my mind, what this leaves off is how exactly does this deck make it there quick enough to cast a devastating Armageddon and then create enough of a lock to keep the opponent mana-fucked? The control shell for the early game until we cast Armageddon is what I'm after.

Control Cards to Consider (with a pretty obvious debt of gratitude to Quinn the Eskimo's control package):
*I think Swords to Plowshares is auto include
*Orim's Chant would give us marginal combo hate and keep Armageddon from being countered
*Runed Halo seems like a decent catch-all
*Oblivion Ring is decent, although not quite inexorable
*Abeyance is good backup for Chant, and unless I'm mistaken, you can use it to make someone's fetch-land activation fizzle by responding to their sacrifice... so this even sort of fits the land destruction theme, although just barely

Anyways, I've said a mouthful. Hopefully this wasn't too unstructured to provide some ideas.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Here's my Version 2.0 of what I think this could look like:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Eternal Witness

3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
4 Runed Halo

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
2 Plains

*I don't know how this would play out, to be honest it looks like a bit of a mish-mash of ideas. But I'm just throwing it out there for feedback.

[Glorfindel]

Abeyance is good backup for Chant, and unless I'm mistaken, you can use it to make someone's fetch-land activation fizzle by responding to their sacrifice... so this even sort of fits the land destruction theme, although just barely
Nope, Abeyance doesn't work against fetchlands. At the moment Abeyance resolves, the ability is already played so Abeyance can't 'counter' it anymore.
Otherwise, it would be a White Counterspell/Stifle in one for only 2 mana. And it cantrips :rolleyes:

[Skeggi]

So I believe this card is made for AggroLoam. There's almost no reason to build another shell when aggroloam is already a deck to beat.

One of the reasons why Aggro Loam is a DTB is because it's able to play Chalice@1. If you start playing Vials and Wayfarers this becomes far less attractive.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

One of the reasons why Aggro Loam is a DTB is because it's able to play Chalice@1. If you start playing Vials and Wayfarers this becomes far less attractive.

Just for the record, a White/Green Terrageddon-ish build could run Chalice @1 on the first turn just by adding some Ancient Tombs, but I think StoP to own the board and Orim's Chant to force through Armageddon are more worthwhile in the build I'm suggesting... Although it remains to be seen how good the build I'm suggesting would actually be...:rolleyes:

[Maveric78f]

Duke, I think that black is the colour you need, for vindicate. I'm not too much fan of StP in this deck, because you could play chalice in it's place, which would highly improve your combo MU. I also think that terravore does not belong to the deck, and that LftL is a more reliable cheating of armageddon and Knight. I would keep Tarmo though, because it's a control element in itself.

Creatures : 12
4 Tarmo
4 KotR
4 Witness

Control : 16
4 Chalice
4 Vindicate
1 Putrefy
1 Mortify
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Engine : 12
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe

Utility lands : 7
1 Maze
1 Tabernacle
1 Volrath's stronghold
4 Wasteland

Forests/Plains: 13
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Winswept Heath

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Duke, I think that black is the colour you need, for vindicate. I'm not too much fan of StP in this deck, because you could play chalice in it's place, which would highly improve your combo MU. I also think that terravore does not belong to the deck, and that LftL is a more reliable cheating of armageddon and Knight. I would keep Tarmo though, because it's a control element in itself.

Creatures : 12
4 Tarmo
4 KotR
4 Witness

Control : 16
4 Chalice
4 Vindicate
2 Putrefy
2 Mortify
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Engine : 12
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe

Utility lands : 7
1 Maze
1 Tabernacle
1 Volrath's stronghold
4 Wasteland

Forests/Plains: 13
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Winswept Heath

I could actually see black as the third color, it's sort of what I was hinting at when I mentioned possibly adding a third. I think Extirpate is pretty sweet armor to add to the deck's sideboard as well...

The addition of black could actually take this deck into a very interesting direction, sort of like a version of The Rock with a Loam or Crucible engine.

Speaking of LftL, why do you think it's better for abusing KotR than Crucible? And why do you think Terravore doesn't make the cut???

I do like the idea of possibly adding black. The main question to me is though, wouldn't the build you're suggesting get Pwned by most dedicated aggro decks? I can see 4 Vindicates making the cut for the power level, but I think it's a bad policy to have ALL your removal cost three mana or more and only provide you with a one for one trade... Wouldn't Pernicious Deed work better than the 1-1-2 split on Putrefy/Mortify/E.E. since mass destruction is more likely to save your ass??

[Skeggi]

Speaking of LftL, why do you think it's better for abusing KotR than Crucible?
LftL + Cycleland = drawengine. This is pretty awesome in Aggro Loam, alas, you lack the huge synergy with Seismic Assault.

Wouldn't Pernicious Deed work better than the 1-1-2 split on Putrefy/Mortify/E.E. since mass destruction is more likely to save your ass??
Pernicious Deed is a fantastic board sweeper, but keep in mind, it also sweeps your Moxen.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

@ Sasa Batora: I'd actually been thinking a bit about a more creature heavy build as well, but I think your proposed creature base has a few too many two-ofs and three-ofs.

On some of your specific card choices:

Personally, I don't like Nimble Mongoose since this deck is not principally designed to achieve threshold. Similarly, I don't think Mystic Enforcer is main-deck-worthy, because threshold isn't our primary goal, and pro-black isn't so relevant that it makes Enforcer awesome.

I think Veteran Explorer could possibly make a good one-drop for this deck, replacing Mongoose, since he would accelerate us towards Armageddon, and the extra lands the opponent gets would be irrelevant as long as we got the Armageddon off. It's also an added bonus that he makes them search for basics, because then you'll 'Geddon those basics and increase the quality of your own Wastelands and/or Ghost Quarters. Also, I think you should go up to four Loxodon Hierarchs, or better yet, take all the Hierarchs out for Kitchen Finks.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Orim's Chant, at least in principle. Mostly I want it to be able to force through the Armageddon/ Ravages of War against counterspell decks, but it's icing on the cake that it functions as a mini-Timewalk/Holy Day/ hate against combo decks, because this deck looks like a dog against combo to begin with.

I don't think Exalted Angel is right for this deck, because it requires a lot of mana to get online, delaying our Armageddon. I think Eternal Dragon and Gigapede are both good options for late-game creatures, since they're recursive and hard to kill.

Anurid Brushhopper seems less than spectacular.

I don't like the fact that your deck completely lacks acceleration/ non-land sources of mana. I think BoP or Mox Diamond are definitely worth including. In a creature heavy build like yours, I would run BoP, and I would also try adding four Moldervine Cloak. It's good in a deck that uses a lot of cheap creatures, and BoP is good with it because he flies. Also, it has dredge, which is useful both because it's another recursive resource, and because it can dump lands in the graveyard to fuel Terravore/ KotR.

One more note: I think Eternal Witness should be an automatic four-of, since it recurs Armageddon, Terravore, etc, etc. Or at least use three, for Christ's sake.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Put this in y'all's pipes, smoke it, and then give me feedback on it:

Stompy-Geddon:

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Moldervine Cloak
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Forest
2 Plains

[Skeggi]

4 Moldervine Cloak
I'm pretty sure smoking Moldervine is illegal all over the world. Back on topic: there has to be something better than Moldervine Cloak for that slot.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm pretty sure smoking Moldervine is illegal all over the world. Back on topic: there has to be something better than Moldervine Cloak for that slot.

Originally, I had that slot as 4x Orim's Chant to force through Armageddon and give us a little combo/aggro hate. That right there is probably better than Moldervine, but I'm sure there may be a good creature to put in that slot... Or we could always use Jitte.:cool:

Anyhow, I'm sort of at a loss to figure out which form of this deck, if any, would be most viable...

It's not really on-topic, but a couple other decks I could see Knight of the Reliquary going into are U/W Landstill with a green splash, or maybe a white 'Geddon-Stax deck with a tiny green splash... Is anyone that's playing these or other decks excited about trying to use KotR??

[Skeggi]

maybe a white 'Geddon-Stax deck with a tiny green splash...
Well, the latest version of Dutch Stax (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311166&postcount=17) uses a green splash, unfortunately, it's kind of designed to be creatureless. But perhaps you can draw inspiration from the list.

[f|i[p]]

I have proxied up KotR and added him as a 2 of to a terra geddon deck Im planning to play in an upcoming tourney,but I must say, I am not as impressed. I think he may be overated. KotR is quite slow.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

;314175']I have proxied up KotR and added him as a 2 of to a terra geddon deck Im planning to play in an upcoming tourney,but I must say, I am not as impressed. I think he may be overated. KotR is quite slow.

I can see that KotR isn't as fast as, say, Tarmogoyf, but I think the utility he provides is good enough that it has to belong in some deck out there. In a deck that abused Wastelands and Mishra's Factories, for instance, and/or some sort of Loam/Crucible engine, I could see KotR being a solid player, although probably not a four-of card for any deck I could imagine.

Basically, I know that a 3/3 or 4/4 for 1WG isn't as impressive as Goyf, 'Nought, or Tombstalker, but I think the tutor ability could be broken pretty hard in a deck designed to use the card optimally. KotR and Esperzoa are the two cards in Conflux that I'm really trying to crack, but so far not to great avail...

[Maveric78f]

I don't think mishra belongs to this deck because KotR is already a tremendous blocker, and you'll prefer to block or attack with KotR than with mishra.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't think mishra belongs to this deck because KotR is already a tremendous blocker, and you'll prefer to block or attack with KotR than with mishra.

I think that's an excellent point actually, thanks.

The dilemma I'm having with KotR that I need help on the most, I think, is that it's a creature that seems to lend itself to some sort of aggro-control. But it's not quite aggressive enough to be an awesome game-winner (trample really would have helped), and the land-tutor ability is best-suited to using him as a blocker until the path is clear to swing without him being chumped... So on the one hand, this card wants to be played with a fair amount of other creatures, to draw the removal away from KotR. But on the other hand, it wants a pretty heavy control aspect to give it a clear path to swing thru, and to abuse the land tutoring. But most control-heavy decks don't like to run creatures unless they finish the game in a few turns on their own, or else provide guaranteed mana or card advantage...

Does anyone have a sense of the deck archetype that KotR would be most at home in? Some folks have suggested Death and Taxes, it seems like a possible fit I guess... But does anyone have other thoughts?

[rufus]

So on the one hand, this card wants to be played with a fair amount of other creatures, to draw the removal away from KotR. But on the other hand, it wants a pretty heavy control aspect to give it a clear path to swing thru, and to abuse the land tutoring. But most control-heavy decks don't like to run creatures unless they finish the game in a few turns on their own, or else provide guaranteed mana or card advantage...

I'm not sure how far it can get, but there are quite a number of creature cards that could work well with him - Vinelasher Kudzu, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Terravore, Qasali Ambusher, Fallow Wurm...

I wonder about the possibilities that Oath of Lieges provides with him, but there's probably not much there.

Mosswort Bridge, Windbrisk Heights, and Spinerock Knoll can work pretty well with him depending on the other cards in the deck. It's not likely to be fast enough to stymie combo by itself, but Glacial Chasm coming into play at instant speed can't be all bad. Horizon Canopy and Nantuko Monestary also look synergistic.