[Deck] Affinity

[kicks_422]

Mox Opal and/or Memnite might find their way into the deck, but they're not what the deck needs. Because combat damage doesn't use the stack anymore, away goes a lot of the combat tricks that gave Affinity an edge against other aggro decks. A mana producer and a 1/1 creature will not compensate for that.

[luckme10]

Memnite? Mox Opal? Hello Erayo-Affinity revival!

[Justin]

Mox Opal and/or Memnite might find their way into the deck, but they're not what the deck needs. Because combat damage doesn't use the stack anymore, away goes a lot of the combat tricks that gave Affinity an edge against other aggro decks. A mana producer and a 1/1 creature will not compensate for that.

I agree with this. Both cards help the deck get faster and more explosive, but M10 rules really slowed this deck down a lot. In particular, Arcbound Ravager (traditionally the most important creature in the deck) is less dangerous and won't grow as big. Keep in mind, however, that most of Scars of Mirrodin has yet to be spoiled. Also keep in mind, that two more Mirrodin sets will come out later. Maybe this new Mirrodin set can do for Affinity what Lorwyn did for Merfolk and make it a contender again. In order for this to happen, Affinity will need to get a new creature on Ravager's level, among other things. The nice thing about Memnite and Mox Opal is that they both cost zero and will add to the explosiveness of Affinity. The deck obviously works a lot better when it can vomit its hand on the board during the first two turns. We'll have to keep our eyes on the spoilers and see what happens.

[dar482]

Pretty much, I would wait. Without something big coming out, this deck has a really hard time. You get outclassed by Zoo's creatures all throughout the curve and their removal. If you're playing a Vial deck, Goblins just has more options and card advantage.

[Izor]

Mox Opal seems okay, it could replace one or two of the rainbow lands. But I agree that more than two should not be played.

As for the Memnite I don't think it will be such a big deal for Affinity. Worker has Modular, which is the one and only reason it is played at all, so it will stay in the deck. If memnite is better, so why did no one play Phyrexian Walker before? It's not all about the 0CC obviously.
So I keep hoping the rest of Scars will do something for Affinity

[Avatar of Light]

Mox Opal seems okay, it could replace one or two of the rainbow lands. But I agree that more than two should not be played.

As for the Memnite I don't think it will be such a big deal for Affinity. Worker has Modular, which is the one and only reason it is played at all, so it will stay in the deck. If memnite is better, so why did no one play Phyrexian Walker before? It's not all about the 0CC obviously.
So I keep hoping the rest of Scars will do something for Affinity

Memnite at least warrants testing. Like people have said above, it's friendly with Vial and especially Drum, allowing for 2 mana on T1. Phyrexian Walker isn't played because it doesn't trade with anything; Memnite does.

@Mox: If we play 2 Opals in addition to 4 Drums, would it be right to just cut the rainbow lands altogether?

[Vacrix]

Memnite? Mox Opal? Hello Erayo-Affinity revival!
This was my thought as well. Does anyone have a list?

[kicks_422]

Don't bother. Flipping Erayo is just too much work for an effect that isn't that much "better" than having an Ornithopter with Plating. And having Canonist alongside a flipped Erayo happens too rarely.

EDIT: Also, you wouldn't be applying much pressure if you drop 1/1's, 2/2's and 0/2's. Your opponent has lots of time to circumvent the flipped Erayo.

[Infinitium]

It's still too strong a lock with too many inter-deck synergies (assuming Worker is replaced with Memnite Vial with Mox) to dismiss out of hand, especially as it can reliably drop it on turn 2. Also the deck runs equipment, Ravager, 4/4's for 0 as and the arguably most powerful 3cc lord effect ever printed. Pressure generally ain't a problem.

[Vacrix]

Don't bother. Flipping Erayo is just too much work for an effect that isn't that much "better" than having an Ornithopter with Plating. And having Canonist alongside a flipped Erayo happens too rarely.

EDIT: Also, you wouldn't be applying much pressure if you drop 1/1's, 2/2's and 0/2's. Your opponent has lots of time to circumvent the flipped Erayo.
Not if you back up Erayo with some countermagic. The opponent will have to invest 2 spells just to get rid of it, which means your 1 counterspell becomes that much stronger. Fast Erayo basically locks non-storm combo.dec out of the game. Even turn 2/3 Erayo is pretty strong.

[luckme10]

Today's spoiler:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6874/dzzepmi5v3en.jpg

Think it's worth going back to red splash? Maybe alongside shrapnel blasts for a nice burn effect.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I think Galvanic Blast is worth the red-splash in Affinity. Together with Shrapnel Blast you have not only a nice pack of removal, but also a win-option. Metalcraft is absolutely no problem in Affinity (obviously) so i am really looking forward to this. I think with Mox Opal too, it should be no problem to "re-integrate" red here :)
Also it should be pointed out, that this blast is an Instant - it's just great in my opinion.

[Oiolosse]

Affinity seems to be a tight list as is and this doesn't compare to Shrapnel Blast. Although, it's def. worth a test. We could rely a bit less on creatures and a bit more on direct damage.

I am def. on board with Mox Opal. I think as a 4 of is even okay. I run 4 Shrapnel blasts no matter what anyway.

[Tao]

- Mox Opal is stone cold nuts in Affinity. 90% of the time it is just a 5 color Mox with no drawback. It will push the deck a little bit to becoming competitive again, the correct number is either 3 or 4. I would think 3 because Affinity really doesn't like it to be unable to play a card but 4 might be correct too, especially with Shrapnel Blast.
- Memnite is not good in Affinity. 3-4 Ornithopter are all the free spells you want. If you play more your draws will become inconsistent and Thopter is better than Memnite because Affinity needs the Evasion for Plating or Ravager All-Ins.
- The new Bolt is cute, nothing to get too excited about. It usually still won't kill Goyf, but it gets the War Monk. With blue being 100% in the deck because of Master of tEtherium and Thoughtcast you have to think about the secondary color. I prefer the non-red version of the deck because Disciple of the Vault is insane and a slightly upgraded Bolt is not enough to pull me into Red. But if you play Red you certainly want it play it of course. Not sure if a nonblue version with Disciple and a lot of Burn would work.

[Cenarius]

Guys, what do you think about:

Painsmith
Whenever you cast an artifact spell, you may have target creature get +2/+0 and gain deathtouch until end of turn.
I think this is what the deck needed. A good lord ability (with Deathtouch) that will make u faster and more of a threath. Though, it should have been an artifact itself :(.

Probably the Bolt is good enough too. 4 Damage is insane. To either creature or player. Run it with scrapnel blast and u got a burn range of 8 with 2 different cards.

[Oiolosse]

Do you guys play two or three colors? I run U/r/b. I also use Paradise Mantle for color fixing. Try it before you diss it. The only black I run is Disciple of the Vault (and plating). Red is just Shrapnel Blast. What about you guys?

[Libeck]

Funny thing with Mox Opal besides it's speedy awesomenes is that, in multiples it's a free shock to the dome with Desiple in play =)

[Tao]

Three colors and two colors are both fine options. The deck has only Artifact lands as monocolored Mana, the rest produces either colorless or all 5 colors, so that's no problem. Playing Darksteel Citadel over the third playset of Artifact lands is only a minor advantage that I would easily give up if I felt that 3 colors were significantly stronger.

[Infinitium]

With the recent printing of Mox Opal and several new cards vying for space in the list.. is it time to consider ditching Aether Vial altogether? It seems slow in comparison to lists running a 6+ mana accelerants (which simultaneously fixes color for the non-creature spells), and the curve for it will be even worse if Arcbound Worker is replaced by Memnite. Just saying.

Also, Galvanic Blast is freaking insane and should be an automatic 4-of, possibly backing it up with Shrapnel Blast (albeit with Disciple and Thoughtcast the non-artifact slots are wearing thin).

[Justin]

With the recent printing of Mox Opal and several new cards vying for space in the list.. is it time to consider ditching Aether Vial altogether? It seems slow in comparison to lists running a 6+ mana accelerants (which simultaneously fixes color for the non-creature spells), and the curve for it will be even worse if Arcbound Worker is replaced by Memnite. Just saying.

Also, Galvanic Blast is freaking insane and should be an automatic 4-of, possibly backing it up with Shrapnel Blast (albeit with Disciple and Thoughtcast the non-artifact slots are wearing thin).

I was thinking the same thing about Aether Vial. I do hesitate to cut it because it is a way to cheat in important creatures, while dodging countermagic. Vial can be quite useful in matchups against blue permission decks (and there is no shortage of those in Legacy). The problem with Vial is that it's slow for this deck. Affinity has a better chance to win if it gets explosive starts, which Springleaf Drum and Mox Opal provide better than Vial.

[4eak]

I think Galvanic Blast is cool. Non-permanents almost never deserve space in the deck, thoughtcast being the exception to that rule (and almost exclusively because it translates into putting more permanents into play). I'm not convinced Galvanic Blast is worth playing (even if alongside other interesting burn cards, including Shrapnel Blast, Bolt, or even Fling). I still prefer Green (or even White) to Red as the tertiary color.

Mox Opal is also interesting, but may not even be worth playing. Affinity desperately seeks to make sure its mana sources are not conditional. The conditons of not having a Mox in play as well Metalcraft's condition is 1 too many conditions in my opinion. At best, Legendary status makes this a 2-of; I'd stick with Artifact lands or even Aether Vial/Drum #4 before this card though.

Artifacts of relevance to Legacy may still be printed that are not too powerful for (perhaps for a lack of synergy with the other cards available to) Standard. However, given how beloved Urza and Mirrodin were (*cough), I generally doubt we'll see future cards of a power-level impressive enough to bring this deck back. Goblins are generally better against the metagame (and far more versatile in deck construction) -- in fact, I don't think there is a metagame in which a tailored Affinity deck is actually stronger than a tailored Goblins deck (again, due to the versatility of Goblin construction).



peace,
4eak

[Mystical_Jackass]

Turn1: Play Land. Play Drum, Ornithopter, Memnite, Mox Opal, MoE. 1 card, "go"
Turn2: Play Land, Cranial Plating. Equip, Swing for 17. Prolly wouldn't happen much >.>

I will say, I'm seeing some new potential explosiveness for Affinity... and the set isn't even half way spoiled. It'll be interesting to see what the deck evolves from there.

[4eak]

Turn1: Play Land. Play Drum, Ornithopter, Memnite, Mox Opal, MoE. 1 card, "go"

This doesn't work. I assume you are thinking that Memnite is somehow necessary in this sequence to get MoE into play? Springleaf Drum must be tapped to be activated (assuming Ornithopter is being tapped for Drum, Memnite plays no role here). You cannot drop MoE on turn one as you've described.



peace,
4eak

[Tao]

@4eak: Saying that Mox Opal might not be worth playing is flat out wrong. There is no discussion that any Affinity list will run at least 2-3 Mox Opals, the card is perfect for Affinity and I suggest goldfishing with it.

@Aether Vial: It should be considered to be cut, not sure on it though.

[kicks_422]

You guys keep on saying add this, add that. What would you take out from the current lists? The thought of taking out so much for non-artifact cards (Metalcraft Shock, Metalcraft bear, etc.), a 1/1, and a mana source is kind of hard to grasp without a working list.

Has anyone thought of cutting Disciple/Ravager? I'm just very frustrated with Ravager ever since the combat rules changes.

[Justin]

You guys keep on saying add this, add that. What would you take out from the current lists? The thought of taking out so much for non-artifact cards (Metalcraft Shock, Metalcraft bear, etc.), a 1/1, and a mana source is kind of hard to grasp without a working list.

Has anyone thought of cutting Disciple/Ravager? I'm just very frustrated with Ravager ever since the combat rules changes.

I agree that Ravager is not what he once was (and he will get weaker still if we swap out Workers for Memnites), but there is nothing that can replace him right now. Maybe if a new 2cc artifact creatures is printed during the new Mirrodin block that is superior to Ravager, we could cut him. Until that happens, Ravager is an auto-four of. The Ravager/Disciple combo can still help you win games, and it can help you get around cards that keep your team from attacking (Blazing Archon, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.).

I think this deck should keep its artifact creature count very high. I would not play the Metalcraft bear because it does not have good synergy with Master or Plating. If I wanted to play a 2cc non-artifact creature, I would go with Atog because of its explosiveness and because it plays nicely with Disciple. But I don't think Atog makes the cut anymore.

I'm probably in the minority, but I like splashing green (instead of red) for Berserk. That card can end the game for you very quickly if you target a creature with Plating, a Master, or a creature with a bunch of +1/+1 counters on it. I like the strategy of making Affinity exposive and goldfishing a turn earlier. With Mox Opal and Memnite allowing for more explosive starts, I think Berserk becomes a better option.

[4eak]

@ Tao


@4eak: Saying that Mox Opal might not be worth playing is flat out wrong. There is no discussion that any Affinity list will run at least 2-3 Mox Opals, the card is perfect for Affinity and I suggest goldfishing with it.

Why shouldn't there be a discussion on whether or not the card is worth playing? Your opinion isn't obviously true (no matter how strongly you feel). Of course, the card could possibly end up deserving 4x, but I'm not convinced it actually will.

I did proxy the card up, and I wasn't as deeply impressed as you were. If you want to appeal to experience, let me be even clearer: I'm very experienced using (other) Moxen in this deck, and I do think I'm justified in questioning conditional (drawback-based) mana sources. It is very easy to see where the card can add to the explosive nature of the deck, but I think it isn't as easy for people to see where the card can detract from the explosiveness or consistency of the deck.

For my benefit, give me your list (perhaps I haven't understood the card as well as you have). I will be happy to test it.



peace,
4eak

[Mystical_Jackass]

This doesn't work. I assume you are thinking that Memnite is somehow necessary in this sequence to get MoE into play? Springleaf Drum must be tapped to be activated (assuming Ornithopter is being tapped for Drum, Memnite plays no role here). You cannot drop MoE on turn one as you've described.



peace,
4eak

Ah! You're right, damnit lol. I'm definitely not experienced with Affinity but I've always been a bit of a fan; now that Mirrodin's coming back it's sorta sparked my interest.

I guess I'll ask you then. What does Affinity need to beat decks like Goblins? Does it need to be faster, just win before decks have the chance to setup; or does it need more resilience, or does it need more power in terms of beaters (MoE)?

:confused:

[Shawon]

Has anyone thought of cutting Disciple/Ravager? I'm just very frustrated with Ravager ever since the combat rules changes.

Just chiming in here: What about cutting Frogmite? Memnite doesn't need Affinity to come down turn 1, and it's only +1/+1 more than Memnite. Is Frogmite still better than Memnite? When you're running Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating, I don't really see how the +1/+1 weighs more than the speed you'll gain running Memnite over Frogmite.

[mans0011]

Ravager needs resilience in order to win.

So many cards just wreck it. Most of its strategy involves pushing its position 'all in,' as it were. Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Pernicious Deed, Trygon Predator, and a ton of other cards just spell doom for this deck. It's not fast or resilient enough for what it does.

[luckme10]

What about a chalice build with no 1 mana casting cards? Paradise mantles for Springleaf drums, 3 Mox Opals for rainbow lands, memnites for arcbound workers, and chalice of the void for disciples. This build actually gives me a greater incentive to run Steel Overseer too, with the added protection against burn/removal and faster low casting cost of weenies.

[GreenOne]

@Erayo: I got zero experience with Erayo affinity versions, but with 11 0cc spells, and 8 affinity guys it might indeed be good. People with more erayo's experience should test it.

@Memnite: since M10 rules I've been disappointed with Worker (and somewhat with ravager too). That new guy plays really well with the affinity dudes, with Drum, and with...

@Mox Opal: The legendary thing sucks, and this means that it should be no more than a 2 or 3 of (depending on # of atogs or shrapnels you're playing). I really don't consider it as a piece of acceleration (while it might be), but mostly as a 5c artifact mana source that we did not have previously. Everytime I drew that City of Brass (or Glimmervoid) i was really disappointed that it was not an artifact. That's it, now you got it. Also, with 8 0cc dudes it should be easier to make it work on the first turn.

@Galvanic Blast: Definetly better than Shrapnel, but still doesn't push you into red, cause non-artifact cards are unfortunately quite bad in this deck.

@Aether vial: i was definetly in favor of Vial some months ago. But in that new version of the deck the targets are fewer (no Worker, so only 12 targets in the deck), the acceleration is better as is the colour fixing (springleaf drum and mox). This probably means upping the count to 4 drums, and cutting vial entirely. Let's play more balls to the walls.

Here's the list I'd probably play with the already spoiled cards:

// Lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
2 Mox Opal

// Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Memnite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Springleaf Drum

2 Chromatic Star / Arcbound Worker / Qumulox / Somber Hoverguard / Welding Jar / Needle / Graveyard Hate / lands / Whatever

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Perish

[Oiolosse]

I have never played affinity with Vial. I don't see the point. As others have stated, it's too slow and too reactive. It may be good against blue based control but why would I vial in anything when I can drop my hand T2??

Shrapnel blast has been incredible for me. Esp now that we can replace land/drum with Opal..shit, an even better sac target late game.

25 damage + 20 damage from Galvanic Arc is 45 Damage over eight cards. Someone calculate the probability of seeing more than 2 of these out of say 12 cards. If the probability is realistic then an average of 8-10 damage is pretty hot from just 2 cards and 2-4 mana. We're half way there and our aggro early-mid game hits hard when left unaffected (I know, fat chance. But we do run a hefty creature count and Disciple of the Vault carries its weight more often than not.)

Big concern here is dropping that hand right off the bat then running top-deck for the rest of the game. Sure, Thoughtcast is great but that runs dry that turn or the next. Thoughts here?? Thirst for Knowledge? I'm just not sure. If only SoM had a good draw engine in way of artifacts. Metalcraft draw of some sort..eww that would be cream.

[evanmartyr]

25 damage + 20 damage from Galvanic Arc is 45 Damage over eight cards. Someone calculate the probability of seeing more than 2 of these out of say 12 cards. .

Shrapnel Blast and Galvanic Arc (assuming all conditions/costs are met) are a combined 36 points of damage, not 45. You could reasonably expect to see 1 in your first 8-9 cards. So, if you play with all of the available "artifact centric" burn, probably 1-2 a game.

Vial is played because the mana base blows, and it gives you some consistency when facing any deck that rips two Wastelands in the early game, and it forces powerful spells that you realistically cannot play on turn one (Ravager, Master of Etherium, etc) through counter-magic. You can certainly drop it, and play something like Memnite or whatever, in their place, but I wouldn't suggest it. Speeding up the deck in a vacuum isn't worth being cold to Swords, Path, counterspells, etc.

[Oiolosse]

If I edit my post will you edit yours :) -- thanks for the correction!!

I guess Vial is something that I would have to test. I don't deny its power, just its place.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

For all y'all suggestin' Galvanic Blast, might I suggest that instead of trying to awkwardly shoehorn that card into Vial Affinity, perhaps you should try developing some sort of Sligh/Affinity hybrid where that card would, you know, serve a greater purpose?

[Nidd]

For all y'all suggestin' Galvanic Blast, might I suggest that instead of trying to awkwardly shoehorn that card into Vial Affinity, perhaps you should try developing some sort of Sligh/Affinity hybrid where that card would, you know, serve a greater purpose?

Something like that?

// Lands
4 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [ALA] Glaze Fiend
4 [5E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
4 [MR] Shrapnel Blast

[Mystical_Jackass]

Could you play like 2-3 Sensei's Divining Top to go with Thoughtcast, with all this new acceleration now?

[1maarten1]

How about some version using the blasts (shrapnel+galvanic) + mox opal + the black things like glaze fiend and the new pain smith guy? That along with the free creatures might result in a very fast maybe a bit glass canon'ish deck. Could that work? I think such list would drop Ravager/vial completely i guess, Im not sure if thats good :P. And it would be 3 colors, but I dont think that is a problem with mox.

[Nidd]

Something like that?

// Lands
4 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [ALA] Glaze Fiend
4 [5E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
4 [MR] Shrapnel Blast


How about some version using the blasts (shrapnel+galvanic) + mox opal + the black things like glaze fiend and the new pain smith guy? That along with the free creatures might result in a very fast maybe a bit glass canon'ish deck. Could that work? I think such list would drop Ravager/vial completely i guess, Im not sure if thats good :P. And it would be 3 colors, but I dont think that is a problem with mox.
See the other post I quoted.

It's very explosive, but Pain Smith < Dark Confidant.
The lifeloss is rarely a problem - if it starts to matter, you already lost.

Galvanic Blast is huge in this deck, but you need a version that can take advantage of the reach it provides and it has to be backed up by Shrapnel Blast.

The list basically builds itself and is very explosive. Dunno whether it's better, though.

[dsg123456789]

I've been testing an RGw affinity. Here's what I'm testing now. Basically, the idea is that I can play better burn and creatures than Zoo, but I'm vulnerable with the artifacts and all.


//Lands
4 Tree of Tales
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Den
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mox Opal

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Carapace Forger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Ornithopter

//Spells
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Lightnning Bolt
3 Shrapnel Blast
2 Chain Lightning
4 AEther Vial
4 Cranial Plating
4 Flex (pyrite spellbomb, chromatic star, sylvan library)


Basically, you can burn out your opponent or their creatures, and you have 8 huge creatures for 1G.

[Vacrix]

Maybe this thread should get renamed now that all the lists being suggested lack Vial.

Goblin Welder is a little bit slow but it does allow you to take advantage of spare Mox Opals or unnecessary Artifact Lands to grab Master of Etherium's or Cranial Platings from the yard.

[griD]

My first post here and it's in Affinity... oh well.
Anyway: Hello, The Source!

In my testings, I learned that this decks needs the Steel Overseer very badly because between him and the Master, you have 8 "lords" in the deck. This pushes the rather sub-par creatures you are running. It greatly synergises with Modular, i.e. Ravager/Worker, and is another must-answer for your opponent. It's located at CMC 2 which is naturally good with Vials as he is at his best with pseudoflash EOT so you will get some value out of him.
To fit him in, I suggest cutting all of the Enforcers, as they are the worst dudes in this deck and they can never be vialed. Also, they are rather terrible in multiples in your opening hand. This build is the more or less traditional UBR(w). Feel free to add some Shrapnel Blasts and/or Galvanic Blasts.

-> Disadvantage: Taking this route drastically lowers your CMCs and opens yourself wide open to Deed and/or EE. You are still fine vs. CounterTop if you hit a Vial.


With the new Memnite, another possible route can be taken: Glimpse of Nature gets huge with a lot of creatures casted for free and refuels your hand while you dump creatures like there's no tomorrow, possibly as early as Round2. You stop extending after you hit either Ravager or Plating (which are presumably lethal) so you still have some gas in hand to prevent blowouts.
You'd want to cut Vials in this build, because it's too slow and not a creature. Springleaf drum is must, though, as is the new Mox Opal I guess (still not a creature but fast - maybe 2 or 3?). This variant is the most explosive and I believe that Erayo can be a very solid SB card for this. This build would be UBG.

-> Disadvantage: Not finding Glimpse in the first 2/3 rounds will leave you with even worse dudes than a normal build - prepare to mulligan.


Hope I didn't make a complete fool of myself with these suggestions...

[jrsthethird]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=87968&type=card

vs.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/dzzepmi5v3_en.jpg

Please stop confusing them.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Wow!! Is this the card Vial's needed? :eek:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110538&d=1284350477

Mox acceleration, Cranial Plating, now this guy!

[Sintheros]

Wow!! Is this the card Vial's needed? :eek:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110538&d=1284350477

Mox acceleration, Cranial Plating, now this guy!

Well he carries plating like a champ, I'll give him that.

Affinity's going to need to take some of these new cards and see which fit. Basically, "Affinity" can be any list at all, as long as it starts like so:

-4 Thoughtcast
-4 Cranial Plating

Everything else is afterthought.

[kinda]

I have to agree that vial affinity lists without vial or affinity creatures seems like progress...

[Sintheros]

So if the day comes that Frogmite, Enforcer, and Thoughtcast (lol@the last one) aren't in the deck, is the deck still called Affinity?

[Nidd]

So if the day comes that Frogmite, Enforcer, and Thoughtcast (lol@the last one) aren't in the deck, is the deck still called Affinity?
Did Trix contain cornflakes?

[CabalTherapy]

What about the new Bird? Cc1 2/2 and bouce an artifact. I think that with the Vial, it could be very nice.
(And carries the Plating^^.)

[Reaver027]

Has anyone thought about adding Ancient Tomb ?
It could solve the tempo problem that will arise once we start dropping Vial and the affinity creatures.

This is a list i am currently thinking about. It have done no testing with it so far but i intend to.

//19 Manasources
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mox Opal

//24 Creatures
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium

//17 Spells
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Shrapnel Blast
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

There are no one mana creatures in this deck so Tomb helps out to get those two and three mana guys on the battlefield early. It still got a problem with all the colored spells since none of them will use double colorless mana.

Tezzeret is there just a a late game option. Not sure how good he can be. But i want to try him.

The deck might be way too slow. But it does not sound that bad. Only testing will tell.

[Gedca]

What about the new Bird? Cc1 2/2 and bouce an artifact. I think that with the Vial, it could be very nice.
(And carries the Plating^^.)

A small, difficult to play (White is generally not one the deck's main colors) creature that is not an artifact is probably not going to be worth playing. I wouldn't even run it if it didn't have the drawback.

[kinda]

The color is the biggest draw back...it pays for itself if you miss a land drop (good), same deal with a mox (good), it's a 2/2 flyer for w with evasion (awesome), with vial it makes up for a missed land drop and can save a land from wasteland or a creature from removal (ok)...so I would say it's definately something to test. It doesn't play nice with frogmite, thoughtcast, master, and plating...but wouldn't it just take mite's spot? That would nullify it's disynergy with frogmite, if you can play mite you only need one more mana for cast (I don't play this deck...this could be relevant), the lack of +1 for plating is definately made up by it's evasion (vs. mite), the evasion again should make up mostly for frogmite's 3/3ness and pump with master. If you're running white you probably aren't running black for disciple.

[Modus Pwnens]

Hey, this is my first post here, i've been lurking around here for a long time, though.
(Btw, sorry for my English, i know its Fucking bad =p, so... have a little patience, please.)

First question:
@4eak and @GreenOne
since you guys seems to know the most about Affinity, i would like to know:
-What do you guys think about running Etched Champion in the maindeck, is it worth it?
-and Mox Opal? (at least as a 2 or 3-of)
-memnite?

Second:
im going to play in a local tourney here, which will be held in october 10th (about 27-30 ppl), and the meta is dominated by agro decks (goblins, merfolk, zoo, etc). there are few control decks, and combo decks are almost non-existant there (maybe 1 or 2 tier2 combo), so... how should i SB against them?
my current list is as follows:
//18 Manasources
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 City of Brass

//27 Creatures
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Master of Etherium
4 Disciple of the vault

//15 Spells
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drums

Current SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of prog

this looks more like a General SB, but how should i be sideboarding against Agro decks? How should I tune my list?

btw, im thinking about going with a build like that when SoM comes out:
//18 Manasources
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mox Opal

//28 Creatures
4 Arcbound Worker (Or Memnite, but Modular + E.Champion really seems to Shine =p)
4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium
4 Disciple of the vault

//14 Spells
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drums

do you think its worth it? or should i stick with my current one?
Oh, btw, if you guys could come up with a better list, i would gladly use it =p

P.S.: that primer is really a 5 stars one, (even though its a bit old) I have to thank you guys for that Awesome work. (yea, i know its from last year, but that doesn't change the fact this primer is awesome =p)

Thank you for your patience.

[Muscari]

i'm just gonna saying, but if you're planning on running a more "mainstream" curve, wouldn't vial be more useful then? i understand not using it in affinity when you have 4 and 7 cmc creatures, but now that you're planning on going with 0-2-3 drops, vial seems a lot more useful, specially when getting past permission.

haven't played affinity in a while, so i might be wrong:tongue:

[4eak]

@ Modus Pwnens

Love the name; I make 2 points in here that aren't directed at you personally (rather the thread as a whole).


-What do you guys think about running Etched Champion in the maindeck, is it worth it?

It is fairly expensive for my taste. If it cost 2 mana, I think it would be more playable. It is obviously a strong card against opposing creatures and removal, and Vial@3 helps. It might belong in an Affinity deck hoping to compete in a metagame like yours, so test it out against your gauntlet.


Mox Opal

It is usually the case that when a cool looking artifact comes out in a new set that tons of people come out to say "that would be awesome in affinity" and "that would be awesome in Stax" -- Historically, they have a terrible, terrible track record. Every set we see a ton of people try to "innovate" stax and affinity, and they fail. For the love of all that is holy, let us be slower to suggest cards automagically belong in Stax or Affinity.

I've already said what I thought about Mox Opal. I think it is a 2-of at best, but I wouldn't be replacing lands with it. Springleaf Drum is what I'd be replacing. Springleaf Drum is conditional in a similar way (although it actually can be used in multiples).

@ Aether Vial Debate: You all have still not learned your lesson about Aether Vial. Good gracious people, play good cards. How many times must I defend this card in Legacy decks? Yes, I realize how few cards the deck actually can Vial into play; those are also the most important creatures in the deck. Also, Vial isn't dead with respect to the cards it won't Vial into play (as another deck might experience), as Frogmite and Myr Enforcer still benefit from the artifact-factor.

When Aether Vial is not worth playing in your eyes, you should be playing either combo or a deck that beats combo.


-memnite?

It obviously wouldn't replace Ornithopter (Flying is far too relevant), and Worker seems the natural choice. Even after M10 nerfs, I think Modular is worth the 1-mana cost (often costs nothing while ramping up Vial).


Second:
im going to play in a local tourney here,

First: I'd suggest a different deck.
Second: Your sideboard has nothing worth bringing in against the majority of aggro decks.



peace,
4eak

[Infinitium]

It is fairly expensive for my taste. If it cost 2 mana, I think it would be more playable. It is obviously a strong card against opposing creatures and removal, and Vial@3 helps. It might belong in an Affinity deck hoping to compete in a metagame like yours, so test it out against your gauntlet.

It's an (almost) unblockable 2/2 for 3 with (almost) troll shroud. It won't see play in this deck, no matter how cool it might look.


It is usually the case that when a cool looking artifact comes out in a new set that tons of people come out to say "that would be awesome in affinity" and "that would be awesome in Stax" -- Historically, they have a terrible, terrible track record. Every set we see a ton of people try to "innovate" stax and affinity, and they fail. For the love of all that is holy, let us be slower to suggest cards automagically belong in Stax or Affinity.

I've already said what I thought about Mox Opal. I think it is a 2-of at best, but I wouldn't be replacing lands with it. Springleaf Drum is what I'd be replacing. Springleaf Drum is conditional in a similar way (although it actually can be used in multiples).

Scepticism is the foundation of a scientific mindset and all, but insinuating this might not see play in affinity is ridiculus. Except for the rather minor Legendary drawback (ravager, disciple, not a 4-of), this is a strictly better Springleaf Drum that might very well accelerate mana turn 1.


@ Aether Vial Debate: You all have still not learned your lesson about Aether Vial. Good gracious people, play good cards. How many times must I defend this card in Legacy decks? Yes, I realize how few cards the deck actually can Vial into play; those are also the most important creatures in the deck. Also, Vial isn't dead with respect to the cards it won't Vial into play (as another deck might experience), as Frogmite and Myr Enforcer still benefit from the artifact-factor.

When Aether Vial is not worth playing in your eyes, you should be playing either combo or a deck that beats combo.

Which explains Vials prevalence in Survival and Zoo? Good decks play good cards when they have good reasons to play them (the reasons in tribal being that they run rather extensive card advantage engines synergizing with it and land based mana denial. And gameplans spanning longer than turn 4)). Vial used to be the best artifact acceleration and color fixer available and Ravager/Disciple the most unanswerable resolved threats in the game. Well, time's they are a changing, especially as the deck as is cannot compete in its current form. Implementing the Mox, Memnite and Blast might not be enough to make it competitive again, but it will add speed and reach whilst maintaining the artifact count courtesy of the all-artifact manabase.

[Oiolosse]

Etched Champion is absolutely playable. It wears cranial plating better than any creature. MoE and Worker boost it up quite a bit as well.

[Bigface]

@Maveric

On Champion: Unless you find people playing Affinity or Eldrazi fatties (or Dreadnought, if they're still around), this guy can pass through hordes of bad guys while avoiding removals. Also acts as an emergency blocker against faster aggro decks like Zoo (they don't like having their Goyfs/Knights/whatever held on by something that can't be touched by Qasali Pridemage nor StP nor any other of their removals).
I really like this card. It allows a more calm and stable approach to the deck. I know, I know, Affinity should be all about speed and beating the crap out of things. But every single time I did so when playing the old Extended version I was pwnd. Who knows, maybe Affinity isn't meant to be an All-In aggro deck. It has been so for years, and never been more than a Tier 2 in Legacy.

On Vial: It isn't a simple accelerator. It avoids CB, Chalice and counterspells. A turn 1 Vial can make all the difference in the world against a control or Stax deck. Your best pieces can at least enter the battlefield undisturbed.
Also, Zoo and Survival are completely different decks. Zoo plays tons of CHEAP fuckers (and still scoops to turn1 Chalice@1 most of the times); Survival goes for recursion (and suffers from GY hate). Affinity is a different deck, less explosive than Zoo and without Survival's recursion ability. Therefore, it needs to land the right creature ASAP AND it must enter the battlefield safely. Vial does both things for 1.

Also, this is perhaps the only decent deck you can build for approx. 100€. Which is fucking good for starters/players with no money to spend on duals and FoWs. Long live TEH AFFINITEE.

[GGoober]

Affinity wins on two pillars:

- Resolved creature carrying a CPlating over the head.
- Lack of massive artifact hate (e.g. Pernicious Deeds, Disk)

I feel that the balls-in-the-wall strategy doesn't work in today's meta. I am interested in picking up the deck again, and focus on the two pillars above rather than the balls-to-the-wall approach. As long as you resolve a creature with plating (Etched champion/ornithopter etc) you can race against most creatures in the format.

Affinity wihout plating seems subpar. I never was a fan of Ravager even though it gave explosive wins. Post M10, ravager builds would have to go all in and risk losing everything to an StP etc. I personally would go with Vials, but I think the best approach in my mind as I'm working out a list is to play a maindeck with Chalice and no Vials (Chalice kills most decks), and play a sideboard of Vials against control or mid-ranged decks to shore up those matchups. I personally think that Chalice >> Vial. Vial would help race against other aggro decks and be great against control/Standstill, however it doesn't solve the main weakness of the deck aka dying to a single removal spell or mass removal. Chalice will slow down a lot of decks (Zoo, and stop stp/brainstorms/combo) allowing you to build up and swing.

I would play with Champion, but in the process add some Ancient Tombs and focus on 1-2 colors instead of 3 colors in old Affinity lists. Null Rod is sad face though if the deck becomes more prominent :(

[Oiolosse]

Affinity wins on two pillars:

- Resolved creature carrying a CPlating over the head.
- Lack of massive artifact hate (e.g. Pernicious Deeds, Disk)

I feel that the balls-in-the-wall strategy doesn't work in today's meta. I am interested in picking up the deck again, and focus on the two pillars above rather than the balls-to-the-wall approach. As long as you resolve a creature with plating (Etched champion/ornithopter etc) you can race against most creatures in the format.

Affinity wihout plating seems subpar. I never was a fan of Ravager even though it gave explosive wins. Post M10, ravager builds would have to go all in and risk losing everything to an StP etc. I personally would go with Vials, but I think the best approach in my mind as I'm working out a list is to play a maindeck with Chalice and no Vials (Chalice kills most decks), and play a sideboard of Vials against control or mid-ranged decks to shore up those matchups. I personally think that Chalice >> Vial. Vial would help race against other aggro decks and be great against control/Standstill, however it doesn't solve the main weakness of the deck aka dying to a single removal spell or mass removal. Chalice will slow down a lot of decks (Zoo, and stop stp/brainstorms/combo) allowing you to build up and swing.

I would play with Champion, but in the process add some Ancient Tombs and focus on 1-2 colors instead of 3 colors in old Affinity lists. Null Rod is sad face though if the deck becomes more prominent :(

So, you're nixing Ravager, Worker, Disciple of the Vault, Vial, Springleaf Drum? Do you have a mock up deck list? Chalice at 1 is always fun but is a slower affinity just a worse mid-range aggro?

Going your route though we could chalice, then splash white for utility. That new angel with metalcraft that shrouds all artifacts we control? Canonist for combo? No Ravager, so maybe Thoptor Foundry? Saccing artifacts in response to removal to make fliers is pretty good with the right equipment. Also MoE makes for some good pumps. Along with the blue lord from SoM that pumps blue creatures. The tap ability isn't too* relevant, but maybe it can power out something bomby?

Sounds neat, but its viability inconlusive even as a thought experiment without testing.

[Sintheros]

Cranial Plating is the most powerful card in the deck, the most common win condition, and the only card that should be a guaranteed 4-of in any Affinity list ever, just in case anyone was skeptical.

[Nidd]

I've been experimenting a lot with Thopter Foundry and I came to the conclusion that if you run Foundry, Steel Overseer is a goddamned must-play.

Also, I figure this opens you up to play 4 Mox Opal, since you can sacrifice them to fuel the Foundry.
Sword of the Meek is unneeded, you are usually confident with spitting out 4 Thopters. With a Master or an Overseer, these pesky beasts take over the game very, very quickly.

Hell, I even started to run Goyf in that build because I figured that losing some parts that made Affinity go all-in pushed it in the wrong direction (Affinity just isn't capable to go all-in against anything that isn't a goldfish!). Maybe removing Disciple/Ravager is the next logical step, playing Etched Champion seems very tempting.

@crz87: If you'd play Chalice, would you rather play Memnite or Worker?

[Avatar of Light]

OH.EMM.GEE

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110714&stc=1&d=1284655670

Stick a Memnite on this sucker and all the artifacts are free except for Etched Champion, AND we get MoE for U...although this opens us up to a 2 for 1.

[Bigface]

Could be interesting. Though Affinity could handle only two good CMC3 drop max, in order not to lose speed by raising its mana curve drastically. Since one of those is MoE, people will either choose this Anvil OR the Champion. I think it'll depend on the deck's strategy.

[Avatar of Light]

Could be interesting. Though Affinity could handle only two good CMC3 drop max, in order not to lose speed by raising its mana curve drastically. Since one of those is MoE, people will either choose this Anvil OR the Champion. I think it'll depend on the deck's strategy.

Agreed. Now that I think about it more, this card would push us back in the "all-in" direction. Free Platings still make me smile though.

[Bigface]

Well, it also works great in Erayo Affinity lists.

This Anvil is kinda intriguing for All-In strategies. It lands turn 2 (Drum+Opal, whooo!) and lets you play Ravagers, Platings and Workers for free, reduces Enforcer's cost and gives you MoE for U, which is great. Having artifacts in hand is something no problem for this deck, and this also gets rid of extra copies of Mox Opal... you just remove them for Anvil and you turned a dead card into savage advantage without discarding more useful pieces. I like it.

[Exospaciac]

OH.EMM.GEE

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110714&stc=1&d=1284655670

Stick a Memnite on this sucker and all the artifacts are free except for Etched Champion, AND we get MoE for U...although this opens us up to a 2 for 1.

If you have the 3 mana to pay for this, you should already be able to cast every other spell in your deck. The goal of Affinity is to have almost your entire hand on the board by turns 3-4. Definitely not worth using.

It seems like AEther Vial is a common card that people want to remove. Why? It's one of the few cards that adds consistency to the deck. I could see a super fast Sligh list without this card, but most "standard" versions of the deck should still run 3-4 Vials.

People are also discussing taking out Frogmite... really? Is Memnite really better than Frogmite? Memnite is completely useless unless you have a T1 Springleaf Drum or it has a Plating attached to it. Frogmite can at least trade with SOME creatures, and its P/T lets it trade with Nacatl once MoE hits play.

Mox Opal is amazing for this deck, yes. I wouldn't run more than 2, running 3 is just asking to get screwed.

Etched Champion I'm still on the fence about. Evasive beaters are really what wins Affinity games (I ran 4 Ornithopter 4 Roterothopter for a while...), but he is pretty expensive... maybe as a two of?

This is what I have in mind:


4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den/Tree of Tales/Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Glimmervoid

3 Aether Vial
2 Mox Opal
2 Springleaf Drum

4 Ornithopter
3 Arcbound Worker
1 Roterothopter
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
2 Etched Champion
2 Myr Enforcer

4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast


I really have no idea where Memnite fits in unless there are more Springleaf Drums. Yes the deck gets quicker if you switch to that strategy, but it also gets less consistent, because you're banking on a really explosive turn 1/turn 2. Of course, I could be completely wrong; maybe this is the direction the deck should take.


On another note, I really kinda like the idea of an artifact-sligh version of the Affinity deck. Nidd's list is definitely a good starting point, but I think it at least needs Thoughtcast somewhere in there.

[Tao]

Anvil is completely unplayable in Affinity. Don't forget that it is -2 cards, that means that you won't have aynthing left in your hand to play, especially after playign acceleration plus free spell on turn 1. Not saying it can't be broken somehow, but not in this deck.

[Mystical_Jackass]

The Anvil turns Grim Monolith into a Mishra's Workshop :P Very very cool card, don't know how effective it would be in a deck like this that'll pretty much play out its hand anyways turn2! Just too much card disadvantage... would take out deck-space in a deck that pretty much wants each card to count; It's a very odd card, sorta like an Artifact that "gives" your other artifacts Affinity. The only way this card would be broken would be in some sorta "Thopter Foundry-Combo" that goes infinite and pretty much wins, but in a creature tempo deck it's sorta opposite of what the deck needs I think.

[Oiolosse]

damn guys, y'all wanna drop your hand so fast then run top deck mode? Bunch stuff hitting the field with no oomph. Gotta have another draw card in here. I hope they print one this set that is compatable with Affinity. Thoughtcast is incredible but topdeck mode'ing into frogmites, Mox Opals, Memnites, etc is bad. Thirst for knowledge needs to be a two of for now. I am back and forth on it but I feel it helps more often than hurts.

[4eak]

@ Infinitium


It's an (almost) unblockable 2/2 for 3 with (almost) troll shroud. It won't see play in this deck, no matter how cool it might look.

Obviously, I'm not claiming it merits widespread play in Affinity. It is conceivable (although unlikely, as I said) that very specific metagames could merit it. This is why I suggested "testing" it against his gauntlet. Note my skepticism even for this card.


Scepticism is the foundation of a scientific mindset and all, but insinuating this might not see play in affinity is ridiculus. Except for the rather minor Legendary drawback (ravager, disciple, not a 4-of), this is a strictly better Springleaf Drum that might very well accelerate mana turn 1.

My scepticism is well-earned; few people know this outdated, tier-4 deck as well as I do. Obviously, that isn't something to be proud of (unless you think Magic history is a scholarly activity) -- it is mere happenstance that I have an opinion about the matter which you shouldn't take lightly. Honestly, I'm only willing to argue about the deck because I enjoy playing and tinkering with it (casually, but still looking for the best build), not because it will ever be good again.

Seriously, we're arguing about how to improve a Tier 4 deck to the point where it might be a Tier 3 deck -- this is an academic exercise.

Mox Opal isn't strictly better than Springleaf Drum. I'll grant that if I only have a single piece (and thus not multiples), either Drum or Mox Opal, I'd usually prefer it was the Mox. This doesn't mean it is strictly better, though, as I can think of exceptions pretty easily.

Take this hand (excluding what you draw): City of Brass, Springleaf Drum, 2x Disciple of the Vault, Ravager, Frogmite, Cranial plating. You'll go Land, Drum; Disciple, Disciple; 2cc Bomb (depending); The 2nd bomb, etc. If Drum was Mox Opal, you have to play Land, Mox, Disciple; Disciple; ... You are waiting for a Land or a 0-1CC artifact. Hopefully you can see that it isn't clear at all that Mox Opal is strictly better than Drum, and depending on what you draw, it can be quite worse.

If you mulled into this hand--City of Brass, Springleaf Drum, Springleaf Drum, Ornithopter, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating. This hand is keepable, whereas if we had substituted Drums for Mox Opals, it isn't keepable at all. Here, the Legendary rule is clearly relevant, as it prevents you playing out your hand. We would actually prefer to have one of each here. That "rather minor" Legendary drawback is part of what keeps the card from being the auto-4x that I've seen people claim.


Which explains Vials prevalence in Survival and Zoo?

Survival (a black sheep of an archetype if I ever saw one) is on the edge of being called a combo deck itself. To be fair, though, 15% of Survival decks on Deckcheck actually do play Aether Vial and, considering the very wide range of configurations of Survival, that is fairly decent.

Zoo's lack of Aether Vial doesn't counter what I said. "When Aether Vial is not worth playing in your eyes," perhaps because Zoo is going to clean your clock (and Zoo has GREAT matchups against the majority of Aether Vial-based decks), you should be playing combo or a deck that beats combo (such as a control deck with a decent game against Zoo and Combo). If there are enough blue-based control decks (built to keep combo and Zoo at bay), then Aether Vial is going to be worth playing. This is where Vial Affinity has the best shot at being competitive, and removing Vial in these metagames is a patent mistake.


Well, time's they are a changing, especially as the deck as is cannot compete in its current form.

I have been claiming that Affinity isn't competitive anymore (and, unless a series of amazing cards come out [SoM isn't amazing], I doubt it ever well be again). It is essential that you understand the severe limitations of Affinity's construction and the unlikely case for its evolution. Modifications to the deck aren't going to make it competitive again -- in fact, the vast majority of suggestions provided make the deck generally worse.


Implementing the Mox, Memnite and Blast might not be enough to make it competitive again, but it will add speed and reach whilst maintaining the artifact count courtesy of the all-artifact manabase.

Rebuilding Sligh/Burn around Raging Goblin, Blazing Shoal, and Myojin of Infinite Rage can certainly improve the fastest possible win speed (turn 1) with the deck. It doesn't add to the AVERAGE kill speed though and, more importantly (and different, but often related), it doesn't improve the average win percentages of the deck. That is the problem I have with the cards being suggested (and many, many get suggested); there are some uniquely strong plays they can make, but often the card will be less useful than what they've replaced. I certainly appreciate the beauty of the new cards that have come out, but they aren't as strong as you seem to think.



peace,
4eak

[Muscari]

i'm wondering, but wouldn't something like silver aggro/artifact aggro/whatever be more appropiate for the deck now? it's seems like people are going to hardly play any affinity cards in the deck, with the adition of scars.

btw, that anvil looks awesome, but no in here

[GreenOne]

Anvil is completely unplayable in Affinity. Don't forget that it is -2 cards, that means that you won't have aynthing left in your hand to play, especially after playign acceleration plus free spell on turn 1. Not saying it can't be broken somehow, but not in this deck.
QFT.

@ Modus Pwnens: You'll find my thoughts and the answer to your questions in this post.

@ Mox Opal
Ok, let's do some math.

Probability of drawing exactly one mox in your starting hand and on turn 4:
Playing 1 - T1:12% - T4: 18%
Playing 2 - T1:21% - T4: 30%
Playing 3 - T1:28% - T4: 38%
Playing 4 - T1:34% - T4: 42%

Probability of drawing exactly one mox in your starting hand and on turn 4:
Playing 1 - 0%
Playing 2 - T1:1% - T4: 3%
Playing 3 - T1:3% - T4: 8%
Playing 4 - T1:6% - T4: 15%

You actually want the mox to show up in your starting hand, but not in multiples, so the obvious choices are playing 2 or 3.
Since the card is not THAT game changing and defining, I don't want to risk like 5% of my games of having an automatic mulligan. Yeah, it's gonna be an automatic mulligan cause having 2 moxes in hand means that you gotta have at least a land and a 0-1 artifact drop, or 2 0cc drops in your remaining 5 cards. And even if you do, you still have an actually useless card in hand. And don't say shit like "you can eat it to Ravager so it's still good!", so does Spellbook, but noone wants to ever draw it.
So, I tested with 2 cause it seemed a nice number

Now, for it to be really good, you want to use it on the first turn.
Here's the chance (in a list with Orni, Memnite,16 artifact lands, 4 drums, 2 other 1cc drops in worker or vial) of having at least:

Mox + 2x0cc artifacts: 4%
Mox + an artifact land and a 0cc or 1cc drop: 15%

So, in the end you get this on your starting hand, playing 2 moxes:
You draw them 21% of the time.
The make you mull (sort of) 1% hands, for double mox.
You will use them on the first turn somewhere between 17% and 18% of your games, so you will have it in your starting hand and not use it on your first turn in 3-4% of the matches.

So, here comes the point.
Why are City of Brass better than Mox, and why cannot we plain substitute them?

Mox is actually better (no lifeloss, acceleration, affinity factor, Plating, Ravager, MoE, blah, blah..) than city of brass 18 out of 21 times you draw it, in 100 starting hands. I see it being quite good with this math in mind, BUT you still have to notice that Mox is counterable, while a land is not, and that City of Brass is wasteable, while Mox is not.

@other cards:
Memnite in the initial testing seems nice, much better than Worker, for it's obvious juicy action with Drum, Mox, Frog and Enforcer.
Etched Champion seems quite good on paper, but is he better than worker, or vial? These are actually the only slots in my list that I feel debatable. The list I'm playing right now is:

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [SOM] Memnite

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
2 [SOM] Mox Opal

// Debatable Slots
2 Aether Vial or Arcbound Worker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 0-2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2-4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

With all the 0cc cards i feel like Drum should be maximized, and this makes up for a faster version of the deck, that doesn't lose much resilence. The thing I cannot come up with is if I should drop Vial entirely (it has only 12 targets to vial in effectively now, and all with different CC) to play a couple Workers (or even test a couple Etched Champions).

[raudo]

Have you tested without Disciple of the Vault? I have run a deck without him and it is more explosive. He might be even a win-more card? If you don't agree, give it a test at least.

[kombatkiwi]

i'm wondering, but wouldn't something like silver aggro/artifact aggro/whatever be more appropiate for the deck now? it's seems like people are going to hardly play any affinity cards in the deck, with the adition of scars.

btw, that anvil looks awesome, but no in here

TBH for a first post this is going to look a bit cynical, and this is not a personal attack on you, but whatever
There are a lot of people posting in this thread, for what seems like every single card that is spoiled in scars, who go OMG OMG OMG we should run *this*

You can tell just by reading these posts that these people have no idea how this deck works

The best cards in the deck (or, alternately, the cards that 'make the deck')
Cranial Plating
Ravager
Disciple
ThoughtCast

These four cards are why the deck plays the terrible-in-a-vacuum-but-amazing-here Ornithopter
Most Aggressive decks don't have a two mana equipment that costs 1 to equip and grants creatures +7+0
Most Aggressive decks can't turn every permanent, even lands, into damage
Most decks can't draw 2 for one mana

Frogmite seems like just a bear, and enforcer seems like just a dork, but
they're artifacts
they're free!

The free part is so relevant because you have all these other really good non-free spells that you need to play as well (disciple, ravager, and so on)

etched champion seems ok at first, but its a 2/2 unblockable for 3 mana. Ornithopter is basically a 0/2 unblockable for zero mana. If you're blocking with etched champion, you're probably dead anyway. It doesnt have vigilance or anything. Just like if you start blocking with ornithopter, you're probably dead.

People are suggesting cards like painsmith, galvanic blast, but the deck's never run lightning bolt. Most versions don't run shrapnel blast. Glaze fiend is basically strictly better than painsmith and nobody runs Glaze Fiend

Theres been (wait... i got this) 1,2,3,4,5.... 6 blocks since mirrodin. 99% of the cards in the deck is from mirrodin. Yes, this is an artifact based set, and yes it is called 'scars of mirrodin', but the only non-mirrodin cards that have been added to the deck in all that time are springleaf drum and master of etherium.

Of COURSE the deck is still going to run affinity cards

I would run mox as a one of
What the deck needs is:
Another thoughtcast type card (ie., actual card advantage) (Even something like U: Sorcery Draw cards equal to the number of artifacts you control divided by three and then rounded, uh, up? Nah it would have to be rounded down)
Something better to use over arcbound worker (a 1 drop, I mean) (Imagine if it was like spinal parasite and was like -2/-2 to start with and came into play with 3 +1/+1 counters. It would be so much better).

This is all we can realistically expect for the deck IMO
PS. Run mox as a one of

Greenone I think you have the right Idea
Memnite I think can be definitely considered

I would go with this

16 // Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Tree of Tales

28// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [SOM] Memnite

12 // Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 Aether Vial

And I would test a balance of frog/mem/worker because these seems to be the most debatable slots in the deck

[Marke]

Mox opal is a must of in any of the new affinity lists.
2 or 3 probably is the right number because drawing 2 indeed sucks AND running too many will cause problems with your lands. You generally run mox instead of a few lands but mox hardly gets online without a artifact land, so a good distribution will probably be 16 artifact lands and 3 mox. 3 seems right because drawing it on your opening turn does give the deck a tremendous boost and with 16 land the chances of doing this are still fine.
Opal being multicolor is great as it tremendously helps the manafixing so you won't need city of brass or glimmervoid anymore, substituting it for them is therefore the obvious choice.

Now i read the post about the'math on opal but it seems to be done in a bit of a weird way.

The proper way to calculate it is to do a conditional probability calculation, ie. what is the chance if i have opal in hand that I can use it as well, in other words what is the chance the other 2 cards include a artifact land and a 0/cc guy or a artifact land and a 1cc artifact.
Given that opal is in your opening 7 you have 6 other cards to have a artifact land (ill assume 16) and a 0 guy or drum.
This leads to:
16/59 * 12/58 * 15 = 84%.
Which is actually about the same as posted below me as 17/21 = ~0,84

Given that opal does the most with a 0cc guy i'd definately go with 4 memnite and 4 ornithopter as it increases the chance of a turn 1 plating or ravager by a ton.

Imo the basis of any affinity deck after SoM will be:
15-16 artifact land
3 mox opal

4 ornithopter
4 memnite
4 springleaf drum
4 frogmite
4 thoughcast

leaving 21-22 cards for other stuff.
One way to go is just the aggro route in which case I'd go with 4 myr enforcer, 4 master of etherium 4 ravager, 4 plating, 4 disciple and 1-2 somber hoverguard. Ravager, plating and disciple are just the solid foundation of affinity and arguably only get better as the manabase is ALL artifact now instead of the few 5color lands affinity was forced to play before. Also the chance of a turn 2 active plating increases by a huge amount because of opal and the combination of 8 0cc guys with drum. Disciple is also easy enough to cast early now with 11 black sources early on. Master also still rocks and enforcer/hoverguard are alot easier to get out early now because of the all artifact mana base and better speed so running them gets alot better.
Other cards like galvanic blast could be used but do dilute the core so you can question how much you need it.

Vial is definately not great anymore in this deck. First of all the decks speeds up so vial will become dead far too fast, any hand with drum or opal will usually let you dump your hand before you even get to use vial. Also memnite is just better then worker so the chance you will use a vial with 1 counter lowers tremendously. Vial isn't a bad card but it lowers the threat density and doesn't actually speed up the deck that much, it simply isn't needed anymore. And to all those that say vial puts stuff into play uncounterable etc etc, against the decks that want to counter you're just better off playing more actual threats. Even if you have a vial out they will still be able to counter stuff like plating and thoughtcast anyways.

edit: some thopter foundries instead of ravagers can actually work quite well. With opal you often dump your hand by turn 2-3 so you get to use all your mana on making thopters. It conveniently puts all spare opals, lands, memnites, springleaf drums etc. to use and doesn't have the disadvantage of anti-synergy with MoE and plating which ravager does have. With this in mind 4x synod, ancient den and vault of whispers + 3-4 darksteel citadel looks good.


Erayo affinity also gets more appealing but is much more different to build. It probably includes a few phyrexian walkers and some more focus on cheap stuff. It does get tremendously easier to activate erayo with opal though so this build might become better (it's naturally a lot sturdier against combo).

[SillyMetalGAT]

I've been having tremendous success running this list:

16 Seat/Vault/Furnace/Citadel
1 Glimmervoid
1 Nexus

4 Ravager
4 Memnite
4 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Thopter
4 Disciple

4 Thoughtcast
3 Mox
4 Springleaf
4 Plating
3 Galvanic Blast

I run the blast since I seem to run into trouble with Goyf and it's nice to have an answer that costs R and doesn't cost an artifact. Mox is just going in no questions asked, the ability to drop a turn 1 plating is now so easy its stupid not to run it, plus if you draw one, float a mana from the first and sac to rav. Etched champion is such a great hatrack for plating it should be obvious why he is in here, Master is too slow. Even if you can drop it 2nd turn what is it really doing? Pumping up your men for what? your still losing them to merfolk and gobs and whatnot. Here you have a creature that WILL swing in unblocked and WONT get stp'ed and if he does, scoop because your losing. Someone mentioned not need disciple and I've thought about it, but what goes in for him? He still just can win you the game out of nowhere, I like him in here. Scars has done great things for this deck people, expect to see its popularity rise again

On a side note: 4eak have you tried not running vial lately? Vial really isn't as stellar as it used to be... waiting until Turn 4 to vial in a master is just silly to me when you could have revolved your strategy around getting plating online as early as Turn 2. I've found Drum to be quite a suitable replacement for Vial even though my highest CC for a creature is 4. Vial is just too clunky and to be honest, fight through the FoW man. Good players will be FoWing your Platings anyways, and vial isn't going to help a plating, springleaf may though.. dropping it as early as possible ensures it hits the board. Just some food for thought and if you have valid points in vials defense please let me know.

[Oiolosse]

...
etched champion seems ok at first, but its a 2/2 unblockable for 3 mana. Ornithopter is basically a 0/2 unblockable for zero mana. If you're blocking with etched champion, you're probably dead anyway. It doesnt have vigilance or anything. Just like if you start blocking with ornithopter, you're probably dead.
...

Yeah, unblockable is nice but Ornithoptor eats it from shock even, not to mention ALL playable removal.

[SillyMetalGAT]

So after my post last night, I got to thinking and I'm going to put Masters back in for further testing. I was using the argument that he was too slow, but in reality you can drop him easily on 2nd turn as a 4/4-6/6. It's kinda like Plating 5-8 in creature form. Plus it's always nice to equip him with a plating too. Master also makes it nice to bait out a FoW for your platings or sideboard cards since a lot of players don't want to see one hit play. I'll come back with a better post when I get a better feel for it here.

[Marke]

It's just wrong not playing myr enforcers in a aggro list with opal and memnite imo.
It just gets too easy to drop him turn 2-3 for free or nearly free. Also 18 lands AND 3 opals is surely too much, 16 and 3 opal will do really. The opal's are just lands that can be played on the same turn as a other land really.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Myr Enforcer is just a vanilla 4/4... even if he is free he's not a potential 1st turn drop like frogmite, and you gotta extend an awful lot to make him drop 2nd turn for free. He has no evasion for plating and he's just not as good as he used to be. Etched Champion certainly trumps over him, even if you have to pay 3 for it when enforcer is free. As far as going to 16 lands.... you may be right, you may be wrong. Haven't tried it so I can't say, but you can't make the argument that mox should count as a land because if you have no ravager, it's going to sit in your hand.

[Justin]

Myr Enforcer is just a vanilla 4/4... even if he is free he's not a potential 1st turn drop like frogmite, and you gotta extend an awful lot to make him drop 2nd turn for free. He has no evasion for plating and he's just not as good as he used to be. Etched Champion certainly trumps over him, even if you have to pay 3 for it when enforcer is free. As far as going to 16 lands.... you may be right, you may be wrong. Haven't tried it so I can't say, but you can't make the argument that mox should count as a land because if you have no ravager, it's going to sit in your hand.

I agree with this. I think Etched Champion will be better than Myr Enforcer in most cases. Enforcer is not so hot in a format that has so many Goyfs running around at easily get up to 4/5 and bigger. Although, Enforcer can be "free," you are usually going to have to pay 3 mana or so if you want him on the board by turn three. Champion can also be vialed in more easily and avoid countermagic.

[Caspid]

Cool story:

Opponent plays Oblivion Ring targeting my Arcbound Worker (idk why). In response, I Vial in a Ravager, then use its ability to sac Arcbound Worker, getting me a +1/+1 counter and Disciple trigger.

Opponent plays StP targeting my Ravager. I sac it in response to trigger Disciple and redistribute the counter.

Opponent ragequits in response.

[kicks_422]

Isn't that how the deck normally works?

[Marke]

Etched champion just sucks. The deck isn't interested in a conditional 2/2 unblockable with troll-shroud. It's just too clunky and is only good in conjunction with plating which stuff like ornithopter etc already is. Not too mention champion + plating isn't even that hot as they kind of sit in eachother's way at the mana curve.. Only with mox or springleaf drum can you actually attack the 3rd turn with a champion with plating on it and then all your masters and ravagers etc still sit in your hand. The card simply sucks.

Myr enforcer only became a lot better in this deck now because of opal and memnite so if going the aggro route it's a very logical card to play. Sure 4/5 goyf trumps any of the 'free' creatures in the deck but enforcer is still gold against anything like merfolk or a controllish matchup.

Also only 2nd moxes sit in your hand if you have no ravager/thopter foundry. With 3 moxes the chance of a 2nd mox is quite small and even then if you do you are most likely manaflooded anyway. Having 4 lands in hand or 2 land and 2 mox really doesn't make that much of a difference as far as mana goes, the 2 mox hand is just tons faster.
There is no reason not to substitute mox for the worst lands in the list (ie. glimmervoid etc.). Mox is easy to get online if you have at least 1 land, if you have none it sucks usually but having only 1 land also sucks usually so it doesn't really matter much.

[Bigface]

Etched champion just sucks. The deck isn't interested in a conditional 2/2 unblockable with troll-shroud. It's just too clunky and is only good in conjunction with plating which stuff like ornithopter etc already is. Not too mention champion + plating isn't even that hot as they kind of sit in eachother's way at the mana curve.. Only with mox or springleaf drum can you actually attack the 3rd turn with a champion with plating on it and then all your masters and ravagers etc still sit in your hand. The card simply sucks.

Myr enforcer only became a lot better in this deck now because of opal and memnite so if going the aggro route it's a very logical card to play. Sure 4/5 goyf trumps any of the 'free' creatures in the deck but enforcer is still gold against anything like merfolk or a controllish matchup.

Gold vs Merfolk? A deck with 8 to 12 lords? They grow bigger than Enforcer in no time. Against Control decks it can be bounced/removed/whatever, IF it comes into play, obv. Not to mention the fact it's smaller than a lot of the most played creatures. Hell, even Goblins can simply cycle Gempalm Incinerator and kill it. Not to mention that with normal hands you still play it on turn 2 or 3 (same as Champion).

Also, I didn't think it was that hard to understand, but: TROLL SHROUD IS NO MINOR FACTOR. In a meta full of Qasali Pridemages, StP, L.Bolts and many, MANY other removals that basically hit everthing Affinity plays, Troll Shroud makes a difference. It's not simply an umblockabe guy. It's hard to kill. Which is something Affinity desperately needs, since everything with a Plating on tends to be killed ASAP (and without Ravager in play, that sucks hard). It's also a definitely better topdeck/defender in desperate cases than Enforcer, since it can stop some big mean motherhubber from tearing you a structurally superflous new behind, while Enforcer dies trying to block pretty much any guy in Legacy.

Affinity has been BEGGING since it cycled out from Standard and saw play in Extended for a guy that simply didn't die to any printed artifact removal AND that was capable of driving through enemy defences. And that guy is Etched Champion. Testing will tell who's right, but I think it is a great substitute for Enforcer.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Can one explain to me what makes Memnite better than Phyrexian Walker?
With or without Plating - i think they are on an even level.
But noone has ever played Walker in Affinity -> so why are all hyping about Memnite?

:)

[Marke]

Gold vs Merfolk? A deck with 8 to 12 lords? They grow bigger than Enforcer in no time. Against Control decks it can be bounced/removed/whatever, IF it comes into play, obv. Not to mention the fact it's smaller than a lot of the most played creatures. Hell, even Goblins can simply cycle Gempalm Incinerator and kill it. Not to mention that with normal hands you still play it on turn 2 or 3 (same as Champion).

Also, I didn't think it was that hard to understand, but: TROLL SHROUD IS NO MINOR FACTOR. In a meta full of Qasali Pridemages, StP, L.Bolts and many, MANY other removals that basically hit everthing Affinity plays, Troll Shroud makes a difference. It's not simply an umblockabe guy. It's hard to kill. Which is something Affinity desperately needs, since everything with a Plating on tends to be killed ASAP (and without Ravager in play, that sucks hard). It's also a definitely better topdeck/defender in desperate cases than Enforcer, since it can stop some big mean motherhubber from tearing you a structurally superflous new behind, while Enforcer dies trying to block pretty much any guy in Legacy.

Affinity has been BEGGING since it cycled out from Standard and saw play in Extended for a guy that simply didn't die to any printed artifact removal AND that was capable of driving through enemy defences. And that guy is Etched Champion. Testing will tell who's right, but I think it is a great substitute for Enforcer.

Merfolk needs 3 lords in play to comfortably bash past myr enforcer, that's usually not happening all too soon and before that it stops them cold. Enforcer is also really easy to get into play through a counterbalance or daze something champion does not.

Champion just completely sucks on it's own unless it is in a 2 card combo with plating. Even then you are unlikely to attack before turn 4 and if you want to do that you usually need to play champion before plating in which case plating just gets countered. The plating is still a easy target for qasali pridemage etc and a etched champion itself can easily be raced, it doesn't even kill many creatures when blocking...
Sure a untargetable, unblockable target for plating would have been nice but not at 3 mana (which is alot for affinity) and with almost no influence the turn it comes into play... If affinity really needed such a guy it would have just played silhana ledgewalker which is just better...

Lots of problems you are mentioning will still haunt affinity and is part of the reason why affinity is nowhere near tier 1/2 in legacy. Etched champion does nothing to help this really. So far the only card that helps affinity alot from SoM is mox opal, memnite will be ok as well but a minor upgrade.

Go ahead and test it and you will find out in a few games what I just told you, etched champion sucks balls.


As for memnite vs phyrexian walker, memnite has 1 power which is a world of difference as it at least gets to bash against all the decks that don't care about creature on creature combat, something walker never did. Memnite isn't fantastic and might not even last in the new affinity but it sure is better then walker.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Memnite on the other hand dies to everything, while walker could survive some stuff :)

[edgewalker]

Merfolk needs 3 lords in play to comfortably bash past myr enforcer, that's usually not happening all too soon and before that it stops them cold. Enforcer is also really easy to get into play through a counterbalance or daze something champion does not.

Champion just completely sucks on it's own unless it is in a 2 card combo with plating. Even then you are unlikely to attack before turn 4 and if you want to do that you usually need to play champion before plating in which case plating just gets countered. The plating is still a easy target for qasali pridemage etc and a etched champion itself can easily be raced, it doesn't even kill many creatures when blocking...
Sure a untargetable, unblockable target for plating would have been nice but not at 3 mana (which is alot for affinity) and with almost no influence the turn it comes into play... If affinity really needed such a guy it would have just played silhana ledgewalker which is just better...

Lots of problems you are mentioning will still haunt affinity and is part of the reason why affinity is nowhere near tier 1/2 in legacy. Etched champion does nothing to help this really. So far the only card that helps affinity alot from SoM is mox opal, memnite will be ok as well but a minor upgrade.

Go ahead and test it and you will find out in a few games what I just told you, etched champion sucks balls.


As for memnite vs phyrexian walker, memnite has 1 power which is a world of difference as it at least gets to bash against all the decks that don't care about creature on creature combat, something walker never did. Memnite isn't fantastic and might not even last in the new affinity but it sure is better then walker.

Don't really play affinity or 1.5 for that matter to much anymore, but a few more questions. You argue that fish needs more lords to swing past enforcer and therefore is a pro for enforcer. The way I see it though, they can never swing past champion once metalcraft is activated. I'll take an untargetable and unblockable 2/2 anyday and in any format. ]

Second, Your claim is that the combo of champion + plating is rather "whack" to paraphrase. It's slow, dies to artifact removal etc etc. The problem I see is that plating will die regardless of what creature it is attatched to. I'd just rather have a creature that doesn't die to the same removal that kills plating. Pridemage nukes both plating and enforcer last time I check, which is a good way to end up in frown town.

[Tao]

Merfolk needs 3 lords in play to comfortably bash past myr enforcer, that's usually not happening all too soon and before that it stops them cold. Enforcer is also really easy to get into play through a counterbalance or daze something champion does not.

Champion just completely sucks on it's own unless it is in a 2 card combo with plating. Even then you are unlikely to attack before turn 4 and if you want to do that you usually need to play champion before plating in which case plating just gets countered. The plating is still a easy target for qasali pridemage etc and a etched champion itself can easily be raced, it doesn't even kill many creatures when blocking...
Sure a untargetable, unblockable target for plating would have been nice but not at 3 mana (which is alot for affinity) and with almost no influence the turn it comes into play... If affinity really needed such a guy it would have just played silhana ledgewalker which is just better.


You forget that it also combos with Ravager. Sacrifice your board except for two permanents that they are most likely not able to kill and just go to his face, unblockable, untargetable. No need to play around Swords, no need to draw Ornithopter for evasion.

Also it is a great blocker. Being the Aggressor in most matchups doesn't mean that blocking is not needed. It is still very useful when you face for example a big Knight of the Reliquary or Goyf that just eats your creatures by lethal attacking every turn while you wait for some way to kill him like Disciple or Plating.

[Mikeleroi]

A question.... Riddlesmith (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110699&d=1284611040), does it worth a slot? Play an artifact, draw a card, discard a land/springleaf/opal sounds good.

[Infinitium]

Don't forget that Etched Champion merely trades with defensive (or offensive) manlands. That includes Mutavault, the popular Mefolk accessory. Also, it being kind of good against spot removal with ravager in play is a pretty moot point since Ravager typically requires multiple sword/edict effects or mass removal to be dealt with anyway as long as you can shuffle the counters around to much any creature.

Riddlesmith spontaneously feels pretty eh overall; it isn't big, it isn't an artifact and the deck has no way of abusing the graveyard and hence use it for anything but card parity.

[Bigface]

@Mikeleroi: Not in an Aggro shell, I'm afraid. Too slow, bad topdeck, too fragile. Also, you already have Thoughtcast as a draw spell.

@Infinitum: True, it can't deal with manlands, but it can deal with pretty much everything else. Expecially against Merfolk's horde of blue fatties. About Ravager: it can be chump-blocked by an Elspeth token or, well, anything else. Even if it dies, it passes its counters to other removable threats. Once those counters land on an Etched Champion, in 90% of the cases you can go for the win undisturbed. This is the biggest difference between putting counters on a random Ornithopter and putting them on a guy with protection from colors. Also, this guy is good by himself both as an attacker (it still passes through most defenses) as well as a defender (Legacy's full of fatties).

[Marke]

I can't STAND to see people are still defending etched champion. I know I'm gonna sound like a complete ass now but it's just too obvious the card stinks. 3 is just alot for affinity and unblockable and untargettable are only important attributes if the creature that has those ability is actually scary in itself....
90% of the time people won't care about the etched champion... Either they are playing a comboish or controllish deck where it's just a overcosted 2/2 dud on it's own and when they do play creatures they can attack into a 2/2 comfortably most of the time..
I didn't even realise the fact that mishra's factory, mutavault, jitte or other colorless cards completely trump it as well.

Also with ravager you can't go for the all-in either as you need to let 2 to 3 artifacts besides himself live to be any sure he isn't just blocked or killed.

You just have to be completely unfamiliar with legacy or this deck to think the card is worth it at all...

Anyway I'll leave it at that. No point in this thread anyways...

[Bigface]

I can't STAND to see people are still defending etched champion. I know I'm gonna sound like a complete ass now but it's just too obvious the card stinks. 3 is just alot for affinity and unblockable and untargettable are only important attributes if the creature that has those ability is actually scary in itself....
90% of the time people won't care about the etched champion... Either they are playing a comboish or controllish deck where it's just a overcosted 2/2 dud on it's own and when they do play creatures they can attack into a 2/2 comfortably most of the time..
I didn't even realise the fact that mishra's factory, mutavault, jitte or other colorless cards completely trump it as well.

Also with ravager you can't go for the all-in either as you need to let 2 to 3 artifacts besides himself live to be any sure he isn't just blocked or killed.

You just have to be completely unfamiliar with legacy or this deck to think the card is worth it at all...

Anyway I'll leave it at that. No point in this thread anyways...

1) I don't see how a vanilla 4/4 could pose a bigger threat. And Enforcer still comes into play at turn 2 (if you're VERY lucky) or 3, just like Champion. Not to mention the fact that it can be chumpblocked into oblivion by everything. People playing Affinity in Extended last years took it off and played Tarmogoyf, just because it was bigger and, well, a better beater. Just sayin'.

2) You don't HAVE to go all-in by saccing everything with Ravager. But even if it "only" has 4 counters on it, Champion becomes a 6/6 unblockable, untargettable guy. Your opponent better have mass removal or manlands, or else it could hurt a lot.

3) There are different ways of explaining your point of view. Just saying a card is bullshit without proving others wrong and then ragequitting (basically telling everyone "defending" Etched Champion an unthinking idiot) is not that effective. It's not an insult, it's just a suggestion to keep discussions in a forum on a civil level. I'm not a saint (doubt anyone is), but still I'd rather talk in a constructive way with someone that think differently than just having the conversation cut off this way. I hope you'll reconsider your decision and discuss about the potential of this card toghether. Also because I love this deck, and can't wait to rebuild it.

[Izor]

1) I don't see how a vanilla 4/4 could pose a bigger threat. And Enforcer still comes into play at turn 2 (if you're VERY lucky) or 3, just like Champion. Not to mention the fact that it can be chumpblocked into oblivion by everything. People playing Affinity in Extended last years took it off and played Tarmogoyf, just because it was bigger and, well, a better beater. Just sayin'.

2) You don't HAVE to go all-in by saccing everything with Ravager. But even if it "only" has 4 counters on it, Champion becomes a 6/6 unblockable, untargettable guy. Your opponent better have mass removal or manlands, or else it could hurt a lot.

3) There are different ways of explaining your point of view. Just saying a card is bullshit without proving others wrong and then ragequitting (basically telling everyone "defending" Etched Champion an unthinking idiot) is not that effective. It's not an insult, it's just a suggestion to keep discussions in a forum on a civil level. I'm not a saint (doubt anyone is), but still I'd rather talk in a constructive way with someone that think differently than just having the conversation cut off this way. I hope you'll reconsider your decision and discuss about the potential of this card toghether. Also because I love this deck, and can't wait to rebuild it.

1) Preboard I don't really consider Champion better than Enforcer. Especially with Memnite and Opal Enforcer will be 4/4 for free while Champion is 2/2 for 3. Champions ability won't help against each deck, especially Combo and Control won't really care about it. So for me Champion is a good sideboard option againsta ggro decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. All of those decks can't really get around a blocking Champion and as soon as you can pump the champion with Plating or Ravager, they can't prevent it from killing them.

2) As I said Control decks with Manlands and Mass removal don't really fear Champion (same for combo decks). Therefore it's better off in the sideboard imo.

3) I agree here. This is not the right way to communicate in a forum. We are debating about the possible merits of Champion for Affinity, so someone who just claims that a card is bad (even though the card hasn't even been released yet) doesn't do it right. Against 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, 5/5 Merfolk Lords (who try to tap your blockers with rejeerey) and those tons of spot removal most Aggro decks pack nowadays, Champion is STRICTLY BETTER than any other Artifact creature in Affinity. I don't claim that it will make each list as a four of but at least for people who try to compete in aggro heavy metas, Champion is the way to go. Period.

[Gedca]

Have you tested without Disciple of the Vault? I have run a deck without him and it is more explosive. He might be even a win-more card? If you don't agree, give it a test at least.

As heretical as it sounds taking Disciple out of Affinity was the best change I ever made to the deck.

[Augustas]

As heretical as it sounds taking Disciple out of Affinity was the best change I ever made to the deck.

how does it look like without disciples? :D

anyway, how do you people like infiltration lens? but eh, blocking isn't too common in legacy though..

[luckme10]

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8133/nweksmvoefen.jpg

Considering how difficult it is to get a Master of Etherium or a Cranial Plating binded, non-flier through, I feel like 'fixed skullclamp' was tailormade for affinity. I definitely am going to try playtesting a pair of these.

[Bigface]

Pro: Generates CA when creature is blocked.

Cons: In many, many cases you can kiss your creature goodbye.

I don't know. I guess it depends on which creature is blocked.

[Nidd]

Pro: Generates CA when creature is blocked.

Cons: In many, many cases you can kiss your creature goodbye.

I don't know. I guess it depends on which creature is blocked.
We could play Goyf. If master or goyf are wearing this thing, opponents will think thrice whether they block or not.

Also, this might be awesome in the more Sligh-esque versions.

[Tao]

A bad card. Neurok Hoversail has not been been played and the only downside that card has is that equipping costs one more. But on the other hand the opponent can't choose to block to survive another turn so I think they are about equally strong.

[kinda]

I'm tempted to try and fit it into 6 lackey goblins...but it's probably not worth it...

[Bigface]

I'm tempted to try and fit it into 6 lackey goblins...but it's probably not worth it...

Wrong Vial thread I guess :)

Anyway, NO GOYF. I know, it's big, it's bad, it's cheap etc. But it hurts my soul to see people playing Tarmogoyf in Affinity. You already have beaters, and they're colorless artifact. Also Goyf forces 4-color builds (URbg), and without fetches and a very fragile manabase that's really, really bad.

[Justin]

If you are having trouble getting your big guys to deal damage because they are chump-blocked, just play Berserk. Winning the game outright is better than drawing two cards.

On another note, the complete spoiler is up for Scars of Mirrodin, and it is a disappointment for Vial Affinity in Legacy. The only cards that might make the deck were spoiled early. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't look like any of the late additions will make the cut. I was hoping that the metalcraft mechanic would produce more playable cards than it did.

Memnite is a slight upgrade from Worker. Mox Opal is good enough to play, but it is debatable as to how many. Cards like Etched Champion and Galvanic Blast could make the cut, but there is no consensus on this. Ultimately, Vial Affinity got slightly better, but no nearly good enough to make it a "deck to watch" in Legacy. In fact, Master of Etherium from Shards of Alara probably helped this deck more than everything from Scars of Mirrodin combined, and Master was not enough to put the deck over the top. We'll have to see if the deck gets some help from the other two sets in 2011 before this deck can challenge Goblins or Zoo as an aggro deck in this format. Based on what I've seen from Scars, I am not optimistic.

[Tao]

Vedalken Certarch U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard Common
Metalcraft - {T}: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

That seems like an excellent creature. Being able to Rishadan Port your opponent's land on your second turn is pretty strong and later he taps away Goyf and his friends. Imo worth testing.

[Justin]

Vedalken Certarch U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard Common
Metalcraft - {T}: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

That seems like an excellent creature. Being able to Rishadan Port your opponent's land on your second turn is pretty strong and later he taps away Goyf and his friends. Imo worth testing.

The card itself is not too bad. Goldmeadow Harrier gets played in Death and Taxes, and it costs a mana to activate its ability and can only tap creatures (although it also only costs 1). The problems with this card in Affinity are that 1) it is not an artifact and 2) it is a card that fits better in mid-range decks. Affinity usually wants to be a very aggressive aggo deck. Disciple is ok as a non-artifact creature because it fits into this theme and can win you the game in a hurry under the right circumstances.

[Nidd]

The card itself is not too bad. Goldmeadow Harrier gets played in Death and Taxes, and it costs a mana to activate its ability and can only tap creatures (although it also only costs 1). The problems with this card in Affinity are that 1) it is not an artifact and 2) it is a card that fits better in mid-range decks. Affinity usually wants to be a very aggressive aggo deck. Disciple is ok as a non-artifact creature because it fits into this theme and can win you the game in a hurry under the right circumstances.
The question, whether we can afford to follow our all-in route, remains.

I am convinced that oldschool Ravager+Affinity doesn't cut it anymore. We need something else, we are worse than Goblins when it comes to CA and explosive draws and we have worse cards than Zoo.
However, we have evasive creatures at our disposal and can run what I'd call mildly broken stuff.

I'm toying around with Thopter Foundry, including Goyf, excluding Goyf, including Disciple, excluding Disciple...
Steel Overseer always seems to break my board in half and gives huge (as in, tumor-driven) headaches to my opponents.

What I like about Overseer is, that even with only 1 activation and 2-3 creatures on the board, the value you gain is massive.
Foundry + Overseer usually seals the deal, 2-4 3/3 evasive creatures are very good at ending the game.
Etched Champion looks really, really busted with Plating, but I'm undecided whether that's needed.

And on top of that, we have that fixed Skullclamp that might actually make the cut.

To be honest, clinging to proven cards in this deck feels like a mistake atm. We received so many new toys and should be open to new stuff and experiment.

[Tao]

And on top of that, we have that fixed Skullclamp that might actually make the cut.


It is NOT anywhere comparable to Skullclamp. It is nearly the same as Neurok Hoversail, 1 Mana less to activate but with a drawback.

[Nidd]

It is NOT anywhere comparable to Skullclamp. It is nearly the same as Neurok Hoversail, 1 Mana less to activate but with a drawback.
Drawing 2 cards can hardly called a drawback.

If they block the creature, you at least trade creature vs 2 fresh cards. That's what Skullclamp did.
If they don't block, you just gave your creature evasion for 1 mana. That's what Hoversail did.

So... we have a (for your opponent) modal Skullclamp/Neurok Hoversail-crossover?

I bet the intention was to design a balanced Skullclamp and considering the original concept for Skullclamp was that you could trade small creatures for cards and Lens does exactly that if your opponent blocks, I think it's safe to call it Skullclamp 2.0.

Anyways, does that matter? It either trades small dudes for cards or it forces through damage. From what I know, Affinity likes both.

[Tao]

Drawing 2 cards can hardly called a drawback.

Yes of course it is a drawback to let your opponent choose. If the card would say "Equipped creature is unblockable" it would be STRICTLY better.
If the attack would hurt your opponent, you won't get evasion, if your opponent is ahead you wont get cards. Comparing it to Skullclamp is pointless, these two cards have nothing in common, neither in power level nor in functionality.


Skullclamp's purpose: Card drawing! Very synergetic with Ravager, Worker, Nexus and Disciple.

New Equipment's purpose: Gives evasion! Has the drawback that your opponent can choose to let you draw cards instead.

[Raimundo]

I just started to play Vial Affinity and i have a short question:
Why nobody plays Ancient Den instead of Tree of Tales so that it is possible to play Ethersworn Canonist.
In my opinion it's a really nice card in an artifact deck...
Thx for your answers ;)

[Izor]

I just started to play Vial Affinity and i have a short question:
Why nobody plays Ancient Den instead of Tree of Tales so that it is possible to play Ethersworn Canonist.
In my opinion it's a really nice card in an artifact deck...
Thx for your answers ;)

Ethersworn Canonist is a good card in Affinity and there are people who play White (Ancient Dens) to play it. But it's usually only a sideboard option against decks like Storm Combo, which rely on casting more than one spell in a turn to win. In the main deck it will too often be only a 2 mana 2/2, which isn't bad, but too weak for Affinity.

[Raimundo]

Ethersworn Canonist is a good card in Affinity and there are people who play White (Ancient Dens) to play it. But it's usually only a sideboard option against decks like Storm Combo, which rely on casting more than one spell in a turn to win. In the main deck it will too often be only a 2 mana 2/2, which isn't bad, but too weak for Affinity.

Okay, i see what you mean. Thx for your reply!

[the Thin White Duke]

After the prerelease I'm very excited about Painsmith. I've cut a couple of Disciples and fit in a set of Painsmiths. I first cringed at the though of taking out disciple, but the smith is really really good.
As for Infiltration Lens, I'm not so sure how to fit it into my deck. Maybe cut Thoughtcast? That's a way that wouldn't impact the aggro-ness of the deck. Maybe?
I don't know, all I can really say is that traditional Vial Affinity may not survive this new set.

p.s. I'm not playing Vial anymore, either. now that's just sacrilegious...

[Gedca]

how does it look like without disciples? :D

More explosive since your early game isn't hobbled by a 1/1 that isn't an artifact.

[Izor]

After the prerelease I'm very excited about Painsmith. I've cut a couple of Disciples and fit in a set of Painsmiths. I first cringed at the though of taking out disciple, but the smith is really really good.
As for Infiltration Lens, I'm not so sure how to fit it into my deck. Maybe cut Thoughtcast? That's a way that wouldn't impact the aggro-ness of the deck. Maybe?
I don't know, all I can really say is that traditional Vial Affinity may not survive this new set.

p.s. I'm not playing Vial anymore, either. now that's just sacrilegious...

I don't think Painsmith (or any other Smith) will make the cut. 2 mana 2/1 non-artifact creature is just so bad for Affinity. The effect can be nice but without evasion creatures like Ornithopter or Blinkmoth Nexus it won't be game breaking (note it can't even target our new unblockable Etched Champion). It will be the initially worst 2 mana spell and the overall worst topdeck in the deck.

As of Infiltration Lens, that card isn't bad for sure. But now imagine this card: 1 mana Equipment. Equip 1: Equipped creature is unblockable. That card is pretty good, but would we play it? I don't think so. Given the fact that that card would be strictly better than Infiltration Lens, I don't think we can play that one either.
Also, I would never ever cut Thoughtcast. would a 2/3 Black Lotus still be broken? Yes, it would. Is a 2/3 Ancestral Recall broken? Guess it is. Now Affinity is the only deck that has access to that 2/3 Recall. Zoo has to play Sylvan Library. What more do we want? It's so good.

And as for the idea of cutting/dropping Disciples: I've never really tried it, maybe I will now that so many people do. But is a one mana card with a damage potential of like 10 too bad, or too slow? Disciple is the first thing most legacy players will Plow. Pernicious Deed cleans our board but what if the Deed player gets like 10 Damage in the process? The incredible synergy with Ravager has been feared since Mirrodin came out. They even banned Disciple in the old Extended ! Especially with Memnite over Worker and with Opal for manafixing, isn't Disciple our best CMC 1 bet? I don't know if I really want to cut it.

[hypaflight]

Disciple is the first thing most legacy players will Plow. Pernicious Deed cleans our board but what if the Deed player gets like 10 Damage in the process?

QFT.

Disciple is just too good a bargain for a one-drop in our deck. It's a lightning rod at the very worst but with a deck that wants to hit fast and hard losing your "measly" 1/1 ain't too bad.

Now, with the addition of memnite, which IMO replaces worker for additional speed, we are going fast. So how does that affect the use of vial. I have always been a big fan of Aether Vial. That being said I have never been for cutting it. But with the speed of the deck and my meta's high adoption for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, a shift toward the adoption of Red might be in line.

I don't really know and I'm on a fence here. The most recent success for affinity here has been running red for Shrapnel Blast and I'm very interested in Galvanic Blast too. But do you cut Vials for it? I don't like the idea.

What are peoples thoughts? Mind you the meta here is heavy on the Merfolk. So Affinity seems potent.

[Izor]

QFT.

Disciple is just too good a bargain for a one-drop in our deck. It's a lightning rod at the very worst but with a deck that wants to hit fast and hard losing your "measly" 1/1 ain't too bad.

Now, with the addition of memnite, which IMO replaces worker for additional speed, we are going fast. So how does that affect the use of vial. I have always been a big fan of Aether Vial. That being said I have never been for cutting it. But with the speed of the deck and my meta's high adoption for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, a shift toward the adoption of Red might be in line.

I don't really know and I'm on a fence here. The most recent success for affinity here has been running red for Shrapnel Blast and I'm very interested in Galvanic Blast too. But do you cut Vials for it? I don't like the idea.

What are peoples thoughts? Mind you the meta here is heavy on the Merfolk. So Affinity seems potent.

For me Vial has become a metagame card at best. If you see a lot of counterTop decks Vial is a great addition. But aside from that Springleaf Drum and Mox Opal just provide a speed no Vial could ever provide. I used to run 4 Drums + 4 Vials for some time but it didn't really accelerate any further, it just made topdecks worse. Additionally in a list with at most 4 CMC 1 creatures (Disciple, with Memnite replacing Worker), 4 CMC 2 creatures (Ravagers) and 4 CMC 3 creatures (Master) it isn't as good as in Goblins or Merfolk. We will have 12-16 creatures which don't need Vial at all, namely Ornithopters, Memnites, Frogmites and Myr Enforcers.

[zmattk]

I agree with Izor, the big change I see with this deck is dropping vial. We already have a good matchup against control and mox + springleaf drum gives us mana fixing. I really do hate what we got in scars. I think the way to take the deck is playing red for galvanic/shrapnel. I think disciple is too good to take out, and if we did, ravager would not be nearly as good as he is. And if memnite replaces worker ravager won't be looking good at all. I don't think etched champion is good enough for the deck either. Pro colors is good, but he is too slow. Yes he CAN be played turn 2 but for the most part will only be a 2/2 unblockable. Just think about this...we are trying to make affinity more competitive. It will never be tier 1 due to the fact that there is so much hate against us that we can do nothing against. And if for some reason everyone thinks etched champion is the card to make the deck...all people have to do is play a 2/2 artifact creature and there goes our strategy. Tempered steel is the same way. Too slow and what would we take out for it. The original mirrodin set had so much synergy with all of the cards that the deck is almost exactly the same as it originally was. There isn't much we can do to change it without ruining some of that synergy. Mox is a good mana fixer, memnite will replace worker in some builds but some people will prefer the modular. And vial will be dropped for red in other builds. But I really don't think much is going to change until we see the next 2 sets. From the looks of it we are going to see a ton of myr crap and infect. Oh and colored cards having metalcraft which really does nothing for us seeing as we want artifacts.

[hypaflight]

Well the pro's and cons of Worker vs. Memnite have yet to defined btw. Maybe someone would care to do the sample opening hands.

As for burn, yes I think it's the only good thing we got from SoM. Which is very VERY sad. I'll probably be cringing in my seat as I playtest some red in my build. I'll try a package of 4 Galvanic Blasts and 2 Shrapnel Blast to augment the reach of the deck and to answer Jace.

Also, I've been having a tough time against combo - which I believe most of us do anyway. But is there any tool in our SB we can use to answer a cheated out Emrakul via doomsday combo or whatnot?

[Tao]

I am convinced now that Vial is no longer the correct choice. At least half of the times it does absolutely nothing because everything is already in play before the needed counter comes on it. I think cutting Disciple was a good suggestion. I've toyed a bit with that and Steel Overseer and found something that I believe is a interesting list. It is explosive thanks to all the low drop and quite consistant. Steel Overseer is an insane 2-drop with the extremely high creature count.

// Mana
4 [HOP] Seat of the Synod
10 [DS] Artifact Land
1 [MR] Multicolorland
3 [SOM] Mox Opal

4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum

// Creatures
3 [10E] Ornithopter
3 [SOM] Memnite
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [HOP] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [FD] Cranial Plating

[Izor]

Well the pro's and cons of Worker vs. Memnite have yet to defined btw. Maybe someone would care to do the sample opening hands.

As for burn, yes I think it's the only good thing we got from SoM. Which is very VERY sad. I'll probably be cringing in my seat as I playtest some red in my build. I'll try a package of 4 Galvanic Blasts and 2 Shrapnel Blast to augment the reach of the deck and to answer Jace.

Also, I've been having a tough time against combo - which I believe most of us do anyway. But is there any tool in our SB we can use to answer a cheated out Emrakul via doomsday combo or whatnot?

Okay, by now I got some first impressions with the new Scars tools:

Memnite vs Worker:
- pro Worker: That 1 modular counter can be the 1 point of damage a ravager would need to kill your opponent. Also it can be the tool to save one more creature if your foe plays Firespout or whatever. Shifted to a flying creature that one counter has some damage potential. Also Worker is 2/2 under Humility, so it can block Mishra's Factories to death.
- pro Memnite: Well, just faster. Sample hands, where Memnite is a lot more useful than Worker:
Memnite, Memnite/Ornithopter, Mox Opal, Springleaf Drum, whatever. Here we can comfortably keep a 0 land hand.
ALand, Memnite, Springleaf Drum, whatever. Memnite has the same insane synergy with Drum on turn 1 that Orni has.
Sometimes we need one more artifact but don't have a mana left to pay Worker.

Mox Opal: So great. 2 are a must have, more can get us into legendary trouble. as a two-of it is just strictly better than Glimmervoid. Those people who played Affinity for Budget reasons won't like it too much. 2 Opals cost as much as the rest of the deck.

Galvanic Blast: For people who played Shrapnel before this is a good addition. For people who didn't play red there is no reason to splash it for Blast now. It's good, but not great.

Etched Champion: Too slow for the main deck, but can be a nice sb option against Aggro.

Combo matchup: Of course our worst matchup. Sideboard options:

Storm Combo: Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap
DD-Emrakul: Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap (both at least slow it down a lot if he has to play around it)
Sneak Attack: Pithing Needle
Painter's Stone: Pithing Needle
Aluren: Ethersworn Canonist, Pithing Needle (not very safe)
Belcher: Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist, Pithing Needle (only Belcher but not ETW)

Partly Combo:
Dredge: Grave Hate (Crypt/Relic)
Reanimator: See Dredge

So in many cases we have Mindbreak vs Ethersworn.
Pro Ethersworn: Mindbreak can be Duressed away or Orim's Chanted/Silenced. It's still an Artifact creature, thus fits your deck concept well.
Pro Mindbreak: No need to splash White, Ethersworn can be too slow against decks that can win on turn 1 or 2.

Or you simply go the Discard route with Duress/Thoughtseize. This is almost guaranteed to work, but the impact won't be as striking.

[Infinitium]

Currently balling this list on MWS. Galvanic blast has been good to me; the mere presence of potential removal/reach forces people to play way more conservatively than they are comfortable with, and playing the best draw and burn currently in the format makes me smile in that smug kind of way we all adore. Color has been somewhat awkward however unless I start off with Opal/Drum, and I can definetly see adding a Glimmervoid/CoB in favor of 1 or 2 Darksteel Citadel. Not having access to all 4 Enforcers kind of makes me cringe, but something has got to give to fit it all in. Maybe the exact ratio of 0 mana dudes/Frogmites/Enforcers can be optimized further, but those are the flexiest spots as far as I can see. No Krosan Grip in the side is a big gamble, but I haven't been punished for it just yet.

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Frogmite
2 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

[Greenpoe]

I've been playing 4x Mox Opal and haven't looked back since. It's just too explosive to go for less. Drawing multiples is hardly a drawback compared to huge boost in speed and color fixing it provides, especially with Ravager and/or Disciple in the list.

[zmattk]

I've been playing 4x Mox Opal and haven't looked back since. It's just too explosive to go for less. Drawing multiples is hardly a drawback compared to huge boost in speed and color fixing it provides, especially with Ravager and/or Disciple in the list.

The drawback happens when you draw multiples in your starting hand. Sure it is explosive, but legendary is much more of a drawback than you think. I think the most we can play is 3. I have been playing my 2 that I got at the prerelease and I have been satisfied with that so far. I could go up to 3 but I don't know what I would take out. Also the deck is very explosive to begin with. I have dropped my hand turn 2 many times just with the aid of springleaf drum. Mox is a great card for the deck but it's not 4 of.

[Infinitium]

I'm starting to think a 3/3 split with Drum is the best here since Mox opal is far more explosive in the opener, and multiple Drums ain't exactly stellar either.

[Pltnmngl]

When SOM started getting spoiled, I stopped coming to this thread to avoid the annoying "would this make affinity better?" posts. Now that the set is fully spoiled, I'm ready to add to the conversation.

Overall, I'm not sold on anything quite yet. Affinity is a very flexible deck. You can tune it to any metagame. Personally, I want to see how the rest of community reacts to the set, which hasn't been much.

By the way, am I allowed to post decklists from SCG premium articles? There have been a couple interesting lists that are worth mentioning here.

[Justin]

I'm starting to think a 3/3 split with Drum is the best here since Mox opal is far more explosive in the opener, and multiple Drums ain't exactly stellar either.

Your are right on that. I was thinking the same thing, but you said it first. The newer lists that I've seen posted have cut the land count from the older Vial Affinity builds. I supose that you can get away with this because you are replacing 1cc spells (Worker, Vial) with 0cc spells (Memnite, Mox). Of course, the first Mox you play replaces a land, but additional ones must replace spells. Do you find that 16 lands (17 if you count a mox) is the right number?

Before SoM I played 6 Drum/Vial. I started with a 3/3 split and evenutally settled on a 4/2 split in favor of Vial. That seemed to be the correct number of mana accelerators. With Mox replacing Vial, you might try a 4/3 Drum/Mox split, considering that the first mox replaces a land.

[the Thin White Duke]

I've toyed a bit with that and Steel Overseer and found something that I believe is a interesting list. It is explosive thanks to all the low drop and quite consistant. Steel Overseer is an insane 2-drop with the extremely high creature count.

I really wanted to like Overseer when I first saw it, but I just don't like it in this deck. It's not fast enough. I'm toying with an AfFOWinity build and have Overseers in that because it's a slower controlling deck. I think I will test it out a little more myself, but I'm glad your happy with it.

I would like to take some time here to apologize to Disciple of the Vault. He's back in my deck and I've cut back drastically on Painsmith. As Izor said, it's the worst top deck possible; and affinity is often living in top-deck mode. I still think it's a good card and I have a couple still in the deck, but it's on the bubble for me.

[hypaflight]

Overseers seems to be a good combination with Thopter Foundry more than anything. But then it doesn't really do much for THIS deck in particular.

Looks like we're waiting for another 3 months for any decent overhaul additions to our archetype.

[Tao]

I have very different results of them. In theory I also thought they weren't exciting but when I tested them they were great, a good addition to the list of gamebreakers (Plating,Ravager,Master). With a pure Artifact+Thoughtcast list it usually distribute 3-6 counters every turn from turn 3 on (from T2 on and every once in a while with Mox) unless they kill it. A solid, but not spectacular draw would be for example T1 Worker, Thopter, T2 Overseer, Frogmit, T3 one more guy and he already gives 5 counters.

[Greenpoe]

Overseers are amazing. They turn terrible hands into good ones (like one with no Master/Plating but with Thopter, Memnite or Frogmite). Plus, Overseer is incredibly helpful when your Master or Plating gets countered/gripped/pridemaged/etc.

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
3 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
2 [HOP] Myr Enforcer

// Spells
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
3 [FNM] Shrapnel Blast

4 Mox Opal has been treating me very well. It gives remarkable speed to the deck that outweighs the possibility of drawing a second, plus it allows me to go down to 3 Springleaf drum. The blasts are for either lategame damage or removing blockers. I generally wait as long as I can before using a blast, since the deck has plenty of mana (4 mox, 3 springleaf and 16 lands). I may go -1 Shrapnel blast, +1 Etched Champion.

[KevinTrudeau]

In testing, Etched Champion, especially in tandem with Cranial Plating, has single-handedly won games against creature-based decks. A sideboard card for sure, if not maindeck material.

[Dark Ritual]

Well the pro's and cons of Worker vs. Memnite have yet to defined btw. Maybe someone would care to do the sample opening hands.

As for burn, yes I think it's the only good thing we got from SoM. Which is very VERY sad. I'll probably be cringing in my seat as I playtest some red in my build. I'll try a package of 4 Galvanic Blasts and 2 Shrapnel Blast to augment the reach of the deck and to answer Jace.

Also, I've been having a tough time against combo - which I believe most of us do anyway. But is there any tool in our SB we can use to answer a cheated out Emrakul via doomsday combo or whatnot?

Unless you want to play karakas, no. The way to win here is to race as fast as you possibly can, hope they go to less than 5 life when they resolve DD, and galvanic blast them in the face or shrapnel blast them in the face or a combination of both.

The problem with steel overseer is he is a bad topdeck. Sure if he gets out turn 1 alongside a thopter or memnite he is a beast but on turn 7 he is absolutely awful to play. Or if you keep a hand chock full of 0 drops and frogmites and they answer the overseer you are SOL. The upside is he can be absolutely bomby in multiples and that if left unanswered a few turns wins you the game.

[Nidd]

The problem with steel overseer is he is a bad topdeck. Sure if he gets out turn 1 alongside a thopter or memnite he is a beast but on turn 7 he is absolutely awful to play. Or if you keep a hand chock full of 0 drops and frogmites and they answer the overseer you are SOL. The upside is he can be absolutely bomby in multiples and that if left unanswered a few turns wins you the game.
Memnite, Arcbound Worker, Frogmite, Springleaf Drum all are awful topdecks. However, what would you rather drop T 7 - Frogmite, Memnite, Worker, Drum or Overseer?

If you care for things that happen Turn 7, then you should play another deck, I guess. You have to win early before they can start to handle your initial onslaught.

[hypaflight]

Uhope they go to less than 5 life when they resolve DD, and galvanic blast them in the face or shrapnel blast them in the face or a combination of both.

That's assuming I run red. Which right now seems sensible but we have other options too which I'll get to later on.


The problem with steel overseer is he is a bad topdeck. Sure if he gets out turn 1 alongside a thopter or memnite he is a beast but on turn 7 he is absolutely awful to play.

True. But we do play with the oppurtinity cost in mind. We run a boatload of bad topdecks.

Also, an idea I've been toying is the inclusion of Quest for the Holy Relic. Like all the funny memnite WW decks people are talking about nowadays. It gives us that slow turn 1 but an explosive set into Cranial to bash in quicker. It also gives us access to W for PTE's and Cannonists of the SB.

Any thoughts?

[Infinitium]

I'm currently kicking around the following list on MWS and god dang it's crazy - it's essentially nothing but a bunch of free spells powering out a bunch of what is probably the most overpowered, undercosted effects in their particular niche in the game - whether that be mana acceleration, burn, card draw, equipment or creatures. "Only" 46 artifacts all in all but without Myr Enforcer four artifacts in play are all I need to reach affinity (and that is by turn 2 at the very latest anyway). The lack of Green for Krosan Grip hasn't been a problem yet as I usually can deal enough damage before damage preventers come into play to finish the opponent off with non-combat damage, and I would rather add Explosives to the sideboard than substitute the Citadels for Tree of Tales as is. This might change once people catch on and start playing sideboard hate but as it is it really isn't needed.

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
2 [MR] Shrapnel Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

[Bigface]

I'd still cut some SB space for 3 Etched Champion. They rape aggro.

Still, nice decklist. I like how you cut mana costs to the max. Still, doesn't CotV hurt you even more this way? Set at 1 it blocks lots of your stuff too.

[Dark Ritual]

I wouldn't play quest for the holy relic. I would rather play stoneforge mystic and that card in affinity is probably not that good because it is slow unless you rip a god draw with tons of mana and ways to dump your hand on turn 2 and turn 3 can play and equip an equipment probably plating since all the swords cost 5 mana to cast and equip, jitte costs 4 to play and equip, while plating costs 3 a much more realistic possibility.

Nidd stalemates do happen in legacy where both sides simply sit there and wait to topdeck cards if their board presence is equal. I'm talking about one of those cases so it can reach turn 7 with both players playing draw go types of games until one topdecks something to swing the game in their favor.

Etched champion probably merits SB space in every list of affinity simply because aggro is the dominant archetype right now. Unless your entire meta consists of lots of affinity I don't see why you wouldn't include him as at least a 3 of if not 4 of. The guy is just so bomby when he lands it isn't even funny what you can do with that guy.

[Infinitium]

It's mainly set to 0 to buy turns versus combo decks (taking out ornithopters). I'm not really all that scared of opposing 1-drops so I usually don't bring it in versus aggro/control, but that said I do have Ravager/Shrapnel Blast shenanigans to reset it if need be. I haven't really tried it, but I'm not convinced about Etched Champion - I already have an awful lot of zero-mana critters to equip with plating, it is rather slow (never ever pull MoE when siding) and at two power it won't win many damage races without plating, which can still be targeted by sideboard hate.

[Bigface]

It's not big, but it chump-blocks Goyfs, Knights and God-knows-what before they can bash your ass. It helps against Zoo and Goblins, which are usually faster and more consistent than you are. Trust me, I tried Champion vs Goblin. They simply can't get through it.

[Nidd]

Nidd stalemates do happen in legacy where both sides simply sit there and wait to topdeck cards if their board presence is equal. I'm talking about one of those cases so it can reach turn 7 with both players playing draw go types of games until one topdecks something to swing the game in their favor.
I know that they can occur, but this deck is going to lose them nearly every time and that problem comes from deckdesign itself, not just the individual cardchoices. Arguing that a card is a bad topdeck isn't really an argument, considering that this deck runs literally only bad topdecks.

[Dark Ritual]

I concede Nidd this deck does have god awful topdecks....when I think "Rip disciple off the top" it is usually just another land/mana card. There's really no way to fix the deck design problem of bad topdecks since we must run the full suite of memnite's + ornithopters to be fast enough to compete along with drums and moxen now. If only we had some more card draw other than thoughtcast to get good card quality oh well maybe in the next two sets we'll get something. And don't argue for riddlesmith's inclusion please that card is awful since it battles with all of our other 2 drops those being ravager and plating, the two best cards in the deck and not being an artifact is dissynergystic with the rest of the deck.

Champion on board against any aggro deck is a house. If he were 2 mana for a 1/1 with his ability he would be broken the only thing holding him back is his 3 mana cost and being just a pro everything 2/2. Goblins could never deal with that guy because he blocks piledriver's like a champion and he walks right past them with either ravager counters or a plating. I think we can establish that the card is incredible against aggro.

For lists with steel overseer what do you usually cut to include him? Just curious. The list is really tight so finding a card to cut to include him might be a bit of a pain.

[Nidd]

That's the list I test atm:

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [HOP] Vault of Whispers
4 [HOP] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [SOM] Memnite
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [HOP] Master of Etherium
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [9E] Ornithopter

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum

Hella unconventional, but it works for me. If you want to include Overseer in the generic Aggro lists, I don't know what to exclude, tbh.

[eq.firemind]

I concede Nidd this deck does have god awful topdecks....when I think "Rip disciple off the top" it is usually just another land/mana card. There's really no way to fix the deck design problem of bad topdecks since we must run the full suite of memnite's + ornithopters to be fast enough to compete along with drums and moxen now. If only we had some more card draw other than thoughtcast to get good card quality oh well maybe in the next two sets we'll get something. And don't argue for riddlesmith's inclusion please that card is awful since it battles with all of our other 2 drops those being ravager and plating, the two best cards in the deck and not being an artifact is dissynergystic with the rest of the deck.
I think Dark Confidant should be tested very seriously now with all :0: mana spells in the deck. Here's the list I run at the moment:
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Mox Opal
2 Springleaf Drum

4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Dark Confidant
4 Master of Etherium

4 Galvanic Blast
2 Shrapnel Blast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
The average mana cost is 1.166, so Bob looks safe. And you can always side him out for Etched Champion against aggro. And IMHO 4 Mox Opal are nice 'cause it enables turn 1 Bob/Plating wich is absolutely nuts.

[brianw712]

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
2 [MR] Shrapnel Blast

I've been testing Infinitum's list and I really like it, although I didn't like the Shrapnel Blasts and replaced them with Steel Overseer. I also didn't find Disciple of the Vault to be necessary, since he is really bad without Ravager. I've been trying Vedalken Certarch instead. Thoughts on this guy? He's essentially Goyf removal, but if you play him on turn one he's also a Rishadan Port. He lets your Frogmites/Memnites swing through even after they're outclassed. Obviously he is a lot worse than Disciple against mass removal, but he's much better in the aggro matchups.

[Infinitium]

It definetly warrants consideration seeing as Disciple is the sole reason we're in black to begin with and lackluster in the damage dealing department without Ravager (albeit alleviating the drawbacks of Shrapnel & Mox Opal are nice), it still has obscene damage potential with ravager and in
conjunction with burn and draw provides reach versus sweepers (which is very relevant indeed since the deck is built to go all in from the get go). Dunno what to put in instead however.. Certarch is certainly a possibility (switching out Vault for Blinkmoth Nexus and possibly a Glimmervoid to preserve some sweeper insurance), but I'm having some trouble with dedicated control as is. White for Stoneforge Mystic (Cranial Plating pretty much solves the bad creature problem by itself, and singleton miser Jitte for the aggro matchups is also tempting) with Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Canonist in the board looks decent as well, but would in all likelihood require more lands.

I wouldn't remove Shrapnel Blast however since again with the all in mindset the drawback is pretty much neglible and Overseer still isn't enough to give us inevitability in drawn out games. Card has been testing great.

[hypaflight]

Here's the list I'm running atm. It's heavy on the burn and I managed to squeez in Thoughtcast. However, I feel like I'm running too many non-creature spells. Or maybe not. Still haven't tested extensively. I will over the weekend.

3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers


3 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum

4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Dark Confidant
3 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite

4 Galvanic Blast
2 Shrapnel Blast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Thoughtcast

[Greenpoe]

I'm liking Confidant. He's such a must-answer threat that tends to win the game if he isn't answered.

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
3 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
SB: 4 [SOM] Etched Champion
SB: 4 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle

[Nidd]

It definetly warrants consideration seeing as Disciple is the sole reason we're in black to begin with and lackluster in the damage dealing department without Ravager (albeit alleviating the drawbacks of Shrapnel & Mox Opal are nice), it still has obscene damage potential with ravager and in
conjunction with burn and draw provides reach versus sweepers (which is very relevant indeed since the deck is built to go all in from the get go). Dunno what to put in instead however.. Certarch is certainly a possibility (switching out Vault for Blinkmoth Nexus and possibly a Glimmervoid to preserve some sweeper insurance), but I'm having some trouble with dedicated control as is. White for Stoneforge Mystic (Cranial Plating pretty much solves the bad creature problem by itself, and singleton miser Jitte for the aggro matchups is also tempting) with Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Canonist in the board looks decent as well, but would in all likelihood require more lands.

I wouldn't remove Shrapnel Blast however since again with the all in mindset the drawback is pretty much neglible and Overseer still isn't enough to give us inevitability in drawn out games. Card has been testing great.
You asked for Thopter Foundry?
Test it. Really. It's great.

[eq.firemind]

It definetly warrants consideration seeing as Disciple is the sole reason we're in black to begin with and lackluster in the damage dealing department without Ravager (albeit alleviating the drawbacks of Shrapnel & Mox Opal are nice), it still has obscene damage potential with ravager and in conjunction with burn and draw provides reach versus sweepers (which is very relevant indeed since the deck is built to go all in from the get go). Dunno what to put in instead however.
That's why I started to play Dark Confidant. Between Ravagers, Disciples, Masters and now Bobs there is a critical mass of must-answer-now cards, so control player will be busy answering your onslaught instead of digging for bombs. And as a side effect Discipe becomes better 'cause with 8 draw effects you'll have decent chances to see Ravager or Blast.
Really, think of it, Balls-to-the-walls aggro with eight synergetic, cheap and powerfull draw effects.

Certarch is certainly a possibility (switching out Vault for Blinkmoth Nexus and possibly a Glimmervoid to preserve some sweeper insurance), but I'm having some trouble with dedicated control as is. White for Stoneforge Mystic (Cranial Plating pretty much solves the bad creature problem by itself, and singleton miser Jitte for the aggro matchups is also tempting) with Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Canonist in the board looks decent as well, but would in all likelihood require more lands.
Certarch is very nice card and I would like to see him paired with Leonin Arbiter, Wasteland and such cards. This will lead to completely different direction, but it seems to have potential. Something like this:
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mox Opal
3 Aether Vial

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Steel Overseer
2 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating


List
Myr Enforcer pushes your curve too high. I guess you should choose between it and Bob. In general, I recommend to reconsider all cards with CMC 4 or more if you want to try Bob. I left only Thoughtcasts 'cause they are the strongest ones. Fox example, here are my reasons to exclude Frogmite: beats for 2 just like Bob and his free manacost becomes less important with Mox Opal's acceleration. Yes, Frog is artifact, but unanswered Bob will draw you more than one artifact.

[Bigface]

The UW List seems nice. I'd put in 3-4 Canonists MD anyway. Limiting your opponent's spells at 1 per turn is always good.

[eq.firemind]

Actually, Vedalken Certarch is friggin awesome. Just does everything this deck wants: keeps early-game state, taps big blockers, carries Plating and doesn't cost lots of mana. I even think it deserves its own list wich will be different from typical affinity. This is what I'm trying right now:
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Rishadan Port
2 Glimmervoid
4 Mox Opal

4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Steel Overseer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Master of Etherium

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top/Executioner's Capsule
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating

3 colors + Ports is greedy and Confidant is MVP in this deck, so bye-bye white. Sideboard should consist Winter Orb for sure 'cause Orb+Certarch is a win vs control. Should I start another thread for this, or keep it here (since things are unsettled right now)?

[nedleeds]

Shouldn't every list have 4x Etched Champion? Unblockable, near untargetable (except by your equipment). He seems like the way to push a win through after your initial surge.

[Bigface]

Too tired to post a full comment, so I'll reserve a post for tomorrow. The sum, anyway, is this: is Affinity becoming less and less Affinity? (Possible turning this into an article, in which case I'll delete this post.)

[Nidd]

Too tired to post a full comment, so I'll reserve a post for tomorrow. The sum, anyway, is this: is Affinity becoming less and less Affinity? (Possible turning this into an article, in which case I'll delete this post.)
Yeah, that's because the spells with Affinity are plain bad compared to spells without Affinity but which can also be played in this deck.

Synergy is the key here, not just building a near-block deck.

[Bigface]

Yeah, that's because the spells with Affinity are plain bad compared to spells without Affinity but which can also be played in this deck.

Synergy is the key here, not just building a near-block deck.

Have I said it is a bad thing? No. It's just that the deck itself is evolving in many different directions and the game plan is changing in a drastic way, from an all-in RUb aggro deck into an UB/UBw with more consistency in exchange for speed.

[Nidd]

Have I said it is a bad thing? No. It's just that the deck itself is evolving in many different directions and the game plan is changing in a drastic way, from an all-in RUb aggro deck into an UB/UBw with more consistency in exchange for speed.
Did I say it's a bad thing? ;)

The deck is certainly evolving into the right direction.

[NetherGamer]

A list I've been testing:


4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Disciple of the Vault

4 Thoughtcast
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Galvanic Blast
3 Mox Opal
2 Shrapnel Blast

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Pithing Needle


I kind of want to take out the Springleaf Drums for something, and the first thing that came to my mind was Tezzeret the Seeker. Think that could be good?

[CabalTherapy]

A list I've been testing:
I kind of want to take out the Springleaf Drums for something, and the first thing that came to my mind was Tezzeret the Seeker. Think that could be good?


Certainly, I won't take out the Drum in a 3coloured (4coloured) build.
I tested the "old affinity" (pre scars version, with 2-3 blasts) and without Drum I was often simply
mana srewed and held a blast or a Thoughtcast without being able to play it.

[Infinitium]

5cc. Not good. On a different note, I've gotten around to testing Steel Overseer in place of Disciple and I'm going to do the 180 and admit it's bonkers insane - sure it'll take a while to catch up to a regular lord damagewise on an empty board (ie against control and combo), but when it sticks it's just downright nasty. Also, it allows me to play Blinkmoth Nexus in the Vault slot which also has excellent synergy with overseer, ravager, master, plating, against deed, against artifact hate, against sweepers and uh, with the rest of the deck. I feel as if I'm starting to approach optimization with the current build, and there are currently no cardchoices that I feel doesn't pull their weight. I might still tweak the free creature ratio to squeeze a Myr Enforcer or two back in in place of Frogmites, but that'll have to wait until I get a better feel for my current build.

Also, Engineered Explosives are back in in place of mindbreak trap as Enchantress and Stax are somehow all over MWS at the moment. Still feel as it might be too slow for the general gameplan and it doesn't boom for 2 as leisurely as it used to, but it isn't as it cannot change back at a later stage.

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [M11] Steel Overseer

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
2 [MR] Shrapnel Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[Nidd]

When you went that for and included Overseer, you should totally test Thopter Foundry. It makes excess Moxen seem less dead (and, indeed, turning them into 1 life + 1/1 flying artifact which will get crazy with Master or Overseer is totally worth it) enables you to outrace other Aggro decks and breaks stalemates.

It certainly is kinda All-In, but in a very different sense than saccing everything you have for a Ravager or dumping your hand T1/2.

[Infinitium]

Saccing stuff to Ravager usually indicates combat trickery however, and is more importantly free. Thopter foundry is way slower, way more mana intensive and way overkill if you already have an active Overseer and a nondescript threat on the table. Steel Overseer I kind of approve of right now in lieu of the 1-drops because it's an artifact creature and allows me to run Blinkmoth Nexus; Thopter Foundry would just put me back into black for little apparent gain.

[NetherGamer]

Why play Blinkmoth Nexus over Mishra's Factory? For the Flying?

[nedleeds]

Frogmite over Etched Champion seems like lunacy. If the goal is to equip, evade and smash then Etched Champion is unbeatable. He can't be blocked and can't be spot removaled.

[Infinitium]

@Nether: For the flying.

@Nedleeds: because it's free. Etched Champion is only ever as good as the support you have for it and is rather horrible against control and combo. If it was a 1/1 for 2 it might see play over Steel Overseer but the fact that it's essentially Phantom Warrior unsupported just doesn't pull its weight at 3 mana.

[Justin]

For those that are considering Etched Champion, you should not be comparing it to Frogmite. Frogmite is a free spell that can more easily hit the board on turn one. Etched Champion is competing with Myr Enforcer for spots.

[affinitypimp]

You obviously havent even tested Ecthed Champion... he is so cheap. even if he is the only creature on the board he gives you board position so long as you have metalcraft. which isn't even hard to achieve since you run so many artifacts. just slap a cranial plating on this guy and he will win games for you accidentally. as a matter of fact, i'm plannign to bump him up to 4 instead of three jyst to make sure i can draw him.... with arcbound ravager in play, i'd just sac all but 4 artifacts just to be safe, and slap all those +1/+1 counters on him and win the game.

i also took out black all together and my deck isnt even running disciple of vault anymore. i can kill fast and have resilience VS removal with my current build.

[Izor]

You obviously havent even tested Ecthed Champion... he is so cheap. even if he is the only creature on the board he gives you board position so long as you have metalcraft. which isn't even hard to achieve since you run so many artifacts. just slap a cranial plating on this guy and he will win games for you accidentally. as a matter of fact, i'm plannign to bump him up to 4 instead of three jyst to make sure i can draw him.... with arcbound ravager in play, i'd just sac all but 4 artifacts just to be safe, and slap all those +1/+1 counters on him and win the game.

i also took out black all together and my deck isnt even running disciple of vault anymore. i can kill fast and have resilience VS removal with my current build.

Have you ever tested Champion yourself? Maybe against any competitive deck except Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo? Then you would know that against anything but Aggro with spot removal it does NOT do anything for Affinity. Combo and Aggro combo is too fast while Lands based decks and Control builds have colorless creatures to block Champion away and mass removal to destroy it. 3 mana 2/2 cannot be compared to 0 mana 2/2, there is absolutely no way an Affinity build can run less than 4 Frogmites. Frogmites are the main accelerators of the deck, and they have been since mirrodin came out (it even gave the deck its name). Aside from that, Champion competes with Master for the CMC 3 slot and we cannot reallly afford to have more than 4 CMC 3 cards. So it is at best a sideboard option against Aggro decks or a 2-of main option for extremely aggro heavy and combo-light metagames.

And I know that some people take out their Disciples nowadays because they want to be 'faster'. They say a non-artifact CMC 1 drop is too slow. Well, Disciple is one of the very best cards of this deck. It finishes as many games as Ravager, Master, Plating and the rest of the deck. It punished your opponent for mass removal like Pernicious deed. It is one of the best topdecks in the deck if you have Ravager on the field. For example, Why do people play Galvanic Blast but find Disciple bad? Really, one should not get too fancy about every single card in Scars of Mirrodin and take out the best cards of the deck. Galvanic Blast does 4 damage while Disciple does way more on average and potentially more than 10. I see that Blast can remove creatures, that's why playing both Disciples and Burn spells should be the best solution. Two disciples and Ravager on the field is pretty much GG.

[Tog]

To those of you who mentioned the Vedalken Certarch, I agree wholeheartedly. The fact that it can tap down creatures in the aggro-based match ups and act as a free Rishadan Port in the control ones really pushes the card over the top. The only problem is squeezing all the cards together in the same deck. Sorry I can't be of any help in that department.

[Puzzle]

Certainly, I won't take out the Drum in a 3coloured (4coloured) build.
I tested the "old affinity" (pre scars version, with 2-3 blasts) and without Drum I was often simply
mana srewed and held a blast or a Thoughtcast without being able to play it.Mox Opal just replaces the Drum. I'm not convinced by the need to keep the latter, at least not as more than 2-of.

By the way, how do you all feel about Ravager now ?
Between Metalcraft, MoE and the disparition of stack damage for combat, it seems much weaker to me and I seriously question its place.

From there, I have personally even dumped black entirely and it for a RU-Factory approach, after tinkering with different kind of RUx-non-Factory ones.
Not saying it's perfect but it feels more stable.
And RUG (Goyf+C.Forger) felt anyway better than Ravager/disciple at being brutal.

[Infinitium]

Ravager can still pump itself to stupid proportions to deal those last bits of damage, largely nullifies spot removal by itself and skewers combat math something fierce. Also, as far as 2cc artifact creatures go it's still about as effective as it gets. It still earns its spot in the deck.

[Izor]

Mox Opal just replaces the Drum. I'm not convinced by the need to keep the latter, at least not as more than 2-of.

Drum shouldn't be replaced but complemented by Opal. I think Affinity should have 6-7 non-land mana fixers. As Mox is legendary I would go 4 Drum/2 Opal, 3 Drum/3 Opal or 4 Drum/3 Opal. The Drum is simply too good with Memnites and Ornithopters on turn 1, which is why I would never run less than 3.


By the way, how do you all feel about Ravager now ?
Between Metalcraft, MoE and the disparition of stack damage for combat, it seems much weaker to me and I seriously question its place.

Well, I don't really understand you. Ravager is the best card in this deck, followed by Cranial Plating and Master. I do not see what the Scars of Mirrodin release should have changed about Ravager's role in the deck... The combat damage changes are annoying but that doesn't mean Ravager is not useful anymore. Don't leave the house without it !


From there, I have personally even dumped black entirely and it for a RU-Factory approach, after tinkering with different kind of RUx-non-Factory ones.
Not saying it's perfect but it feels more stable.
And RUG (Goyf+C.Forger) felt anyway better than Ravager/disciple at being brutal.

I'm getting tired of explaining how fricking good Disciple is in this deck. Look a few pages back to see what I wrote about that topic before.

Really, man. If you want to cut Ravager and Disciple in Affinity, you should just stop playing that deck.

[freakish777]

Master of Etherium + Copy Artifact.

It's actually pretty sick (if you don't draw Master, you can Copy Ravager, Enforcer, or Cranial Plating).

[Justin]

Whether Mox Opal replaces drum or vial depends on the build. In versions that want to play more 2cc and 3cc creatuers (such as Dark Confidant, Etched Champion, and Steel Overseer), you need to keep your vials. If you want to play a more explosive "balls-to-the-wall" version of affinity with more emphasis on free/affinity creatures, you want drums alongside your moxen.

[five]

Has anybody ever tested the build with Riddlesmith and Glimpse of Nature? I heard that this version can go off in combo fashion, simply killing with Ravager + Disciple that turn. Sounds fun to me.

[largebrandon]

In the Starcity Games event in Nashville, there was semi coverage (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20292_Deck_Tech_Searching_for_New_Affinity.html) of an artifact deck that played glimpse and Erayo. They didn't give a decklist but this is what I've come up with from how they've described it:


4 Tree of Tales
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Glimmervoid
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
3 City of Brass
4 Mox Opal

4 Ornithopter
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Memnite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Frogmite

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast

[Infinitium]

Glimpse is interesting, but may ultimately be cute without the net positive mana that elves can generate on their big turn to actually take advantage of the card advantage. Still playing the same list as I posted previously -1 Frogmite +1 Enforcer, which has been kind to me so far (11 free creatures still goes a long way, and the extra beef has been relevant). Shrapnel Blast hasn't come into play much, but when played is usually pretty decisive. nore testing needed before I can blurt anything decisive though.

[Pltnmngl]

Jon Holland replied to the article and said this:



Decklist

Ravanger Affinty-Jon Holland

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Arcbound Ravanger
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
1 Darksteel Citadel

SB:

4 Blood Moon
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mindbreak Trap

I didn't test before and I wish I had ran 1-2 less land. The games when I flooded were the one's that I lost. I highly recommend the deck. There wasn't a bad matchup all day, just flooded a few times. Any constructive comments would be greatly appreciated.

Jonathan Holland

- 16 Lands sounds perfect since we have Mox Opal now. Not convinced to run 4 of them, though...
- Lack of Vial was a good call for the metagame, but I wouldn't drop them against unknown metas.
- Lack of Myr Enforcer makes me a sad panda, but Canonist main with Trap gives me a lot of hope for combo matchups now. Hell, white in general gives us a better combo matchup.
-Chalice rapes this deck, but who runs chalice now? We could drop red to reintroduce green for Krosan Grip.
-Blood Moon? Feels too counterproductive.\

Thoughts?

[Gedca]

Jon Holland replied to the article and said this:



- 16 Lands sounds perfect since we have Mox Opal now. Not convinced to run 4 of them, though...
- Lack of Vial was a good call for the metagame, but I wouldn't drop them against unknown metas.
- Lack of Myr Enforcer makes me a sad panda, but Canonist main with Trap gives me a lot of hope for combo matchups now. Hell, white in general gives us a better combo matchup.
-Chalice rapes this deck, but who runs chalice now? We could drop red to reintroduce green for Krosan Grip.
-Blood Moon? Feels too counterproductive.\

Thoughts?
I used to run Blood Moon in Extended Affinity. It gave Zoo and Dark Depths variants headaches. However, once players, especially Zoo players, realized what I was doing that stopped getting redundant shocklands just got basics. Still won me the odd match.

In legacy it seems fine in a few matchups. Opals and Drums means that getting it turn two is feasible. It has the potential to shut Zoo out of the game. Assuming you have just one Opal or Drum out means it wouldn't significantly hurt you. How often do you use more then one non-red source in a turn?

[median]

Decklist

Ravanger Affinty-Jon Holland

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Arcbound Ravanger
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
1 Darksteel Citadel

SB:

4 Blood Moon
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mindbreak Trap

I didn't test before and I wish I had ran 1-2 less land. The games when I flooded were the one's that I lost. I highly recommend the deck. There wasn't a bad matchup all day, just flooded a few times. Any constructive comments would be greatly appreciated.

Jonathan Holland




Just a random thought, what about serum powder with this list?

[Secretword]

Building on John Holland's deck and the recent suggestions in this thread, a couple of things stand out:

- Dark Confidant and Mox Opal are very, very good. Drawing them both in your opening hand with a land and an Orni/Memnite is just stupid.
- As of now, the deck is incredibly fast. It goldfishes on turn 3 almost half the time.

If I had to play the deck tomorrow, I would definitely use this shell:

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
4 Master of Etherium

4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating

4 ***

4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel (or another colored land if that fits the sideboard better)

The four blank spaces can be one of the following: Vedalken Certarch, Thoughtcast, Ethersworn Canonist or Etched Champion. I really like Canonist myself. It beats down, hinders decks that might be faster than you and immediately comes online (unlike Certarch).

Confidant gives you enough card draw to skip Thoughtcast, Etched Champion and Master of Etherium in the same list make the deck too expensive for my liking, and Vedalken Certarch doesn't really fit the strategy. I mean, you don't really want to be casting it in the early game because you have to deploy threats, and in the late game it takes a full turn to come online, which makes it too slow in my opinion.

I played this deck in Block, Standard and Extended until it got banned or rotated out, so I look forward to playing it in Legacy now that it's finally good enough for this format.

[Justin]

You actually only have a 56 card deck there. You have 4 more flex spots. I'd actually say that Thoughtcast is a staple and should be a 4-of. You are also probably fine with only 3 Mox Opal, leaving you five flex spots.

[Secretword]

You actually only have a 56 card deck there. You have 4 more flex spots. I'd actually say that Thoughtcast is a staple and should be a 4-of. You are also probably fine with only 3 Mox Opal, leaving you five flex spots.

Of course, I forgot Dark Confidant. Edited the decklist.

After playing some more, Berserk also seems a very nice option for those 4 blank spaces. The deck is a balls-to-the-wall aggro deck, so I think it fits the overall strategy a lot better than Thoughtcast.

(and I only draw lands off my Thoughtcasts anyway ;) )

[Pltnmngl]

I used to run Blood Moon in Extended Affinity. It gave Zoo and Dark Depths variants headaches. However, once players, especially Zoo players, realized what I was doing that stopped getting redundant shocklands just got basics. Still won me the odd match.

In legacy it seems fine in a few matchups. Opals and Drums means that getting it turn two is feasible. It has the potential to shut Zoo out of the game. Assuming you have just one Opal or Drum out means it wouldn't significantly hurt you. How often do you use more then one non-red source in a turn?

Apparently, that's what he said, too:


Match-ups
I had blood moons because I was afraid of zoo and I could attempt to mana screw them. However, I did not play a single zoo deck all day, so they were not helpful. The Moxes were always good because I ALWAYS want 2 mana on the first turn. If I drop a first turn canonist (or cranial plating) it really punishes several decks. (Survival, ANT, Belcher, Goblins, etc.) Also, there were a few times were I had a opal in hand, but I just sacrificed it to ravanger to play another one. This would actually net me an extra mana on some turns. I didn't miss Enforcer at all, he's too expensive. As for the board ,I think I would run some thought seize over blood moon in the board instead. This would help solve the chalice issue somewhat.
The match-ups against the typical decks are great. I played Merfolk, ANT, Counter-top, GW Survival, GU Survival, Hybrid Combo, and reanimator. There wasn't a matchup that I felt was tough. You have so many threats: Master, Disciple, Ravanger, Cranial Plating so blue decks can't counter them all. Also, you put so much pressure against combo decks that they try to combo off too early and whiff more often. There were several games were I would swing for 7+ damage on turn 2. I feel the deck is very underrated and will soon be a strong contender in the metagame.

Still not convinced by 4 Mox Opal, though. I'm too worried about getting multiples. A part of me still wants to take off the Citadel and a Mox for 2 Enforcers.

Also, I'm digging the Confidant addition. Our mana-fixing is ridiculous now.

Does Etched Champion help with any matchups? I don't think it does. It doesn't really improve our Zoo matchup.Thoughts?

[Royal Ass.]

I am a Type 1 Player that is just getting into legacy because no one plays Type 1 where I live anymore.... I just made an account today so I could contribute to this thread. I chose to put together an Affinity deck because I think it's a lot of fun to play especially with the new scars cards. Here are a couple thoughts I have after testing this deck.

Seriously consider running 4 mox opals in this deck. If your build is running Ravager and or Shrapnel Blast I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to run this card as a 4 of. You will want to see this card early in every game and running 4 is the best way to do so. With Ravager, the legendary status is hardly a noticeable drawback. I can't imagine running less than 4 of this card.

Also seriously consider Etched Champion. With cranial playing he will win you games. I run him as a 2 of and am going to consider keeping 1 or 2 more in the board as against certain decks he is the bomb. Merfolk has a particularly hard time dealing with him. With 4 mox opal in the deck he is pretty easy to get out on turn 2.

Dark Confidant is also really good. Though Running Confidant and Disciple means you have 8 non-artifact creatures in the deck which is a lot. Between those two creatures I'm not sure yet who is better, or if you should run both. What are others' opinion on Confidant vs. Disciple of the Vault?

[Pltnmngl]

I am a Type 1 Player that is just getting into legacy because no one plays Type 1 where I live anymore.... I just made an account today so I could contribute to this thread. I chose to put together an Affinity deck because I think it's a lot of fun to play especially with the new scars cards. Here are a couple thoughts I have after testing this deck.

Seriously consider running 4 mox opals in this deck. If your build is running Ravager and or Shrapnel Blast I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to run this card as a 4 of. You will want to see this card early in every game and running 4 is the best way to do so. With Ravager, the legendary status is hardly a noticeable drawback. I can't imagine running less than 4 of this card.

Also seriously consider Etched Champion. With cranial playing he will win you games. I run him as a 2 of and am going to consider keeping 1 or 2 more in the board as against certain decks he is the bomb. Merfolk has a particularly hard time dealing with him. With 4 mox opal in the deck he is pretty easy to get out on turn 2.

Dark Confidant is also really good. Though Running Confidant and Disciple means you have 8 non-artifact creatures in the deck which is a lot. Between those two creatures I'm not sure yet who is better, or if you should run both. What are others' opinion on Confidant vs. Disciple of the Vault?

Confidant replaces Thoughtcast, so you shouldn't have to choose.

This list is getting pretty tight right now. I'm don't like the idea of having multiple Moxes with no sac outlet in hand.

[Izor]

Confidant replaces Thoughtcast, so you shouldn't have to choose.

This list is getting pretty tight right now. I'm don't like the idea of having multiple Moxes with no sac outlet in hand.

Nothing replaces Thoughtcast. That card is a 4-of and each list with fewer than 4 is not optimal. drawing two cards for 1 mana is a lot better than confidant, especially as this deck doesn't appreciate non-artifact permanents.

And as for Moxes, I basically agree. That's why I will probably use 3, not 4. But still 4 is possible. It's really hard to decide for a card, which ypou want to see in your opening hand but which you don't want to have more than once per game.

@ Royal Ass: As far as Etched Champion is concerned I would use it only in the sideboard. There are only a couple of decks he's really strong against, namely aggro decks like Bant, Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins. Against other decks he's just too slow with 3 mana 2/2 and his Pro can't make up for that. Also it competes with Master for the CMC 3 slot and I don't think that Affinity can run more than 4-5 CMC 3 cards main (and I'd really not cut Masters fpr Champion).

And Confidant seems good on paper but in parctise it is rather disappointing in Affinity. It is a great draw engine for faster Control decks like CounterTop and for slower Aggro decks like Rock. But for Affinity it is really too slow. Affinity can (and has to) win incredibly fast, which is its biggest selling point. Confidant is a card that would try to imprve the deck's midgame. This is pretty useless because we will be pretty much dead if it comes to the midgame anyway. No Bob will prevent that. Thoughtcast is the only draw spell that is efficient, explosive and reliable enough to fit this deck.

[Infinitium]

In my current build I'm actually torn between Arcbound Worker and Frogmite. Memnite is rather untouchable with Mox Opal in the list, and with Ravager, Overseer and Shrapnel Blast all in it Modular already looking better than a meager +1/+1. The mana cost is pretty inconsequential as I only run 7 1cc spells anyway with Springleaf being mana neutral with a free critter and Galvanic being bombier later on anyway in most to all situations (except maybe goblins on the play). That, and a 2/2 is about as outclassed as a 1/1 in most situations anyway so I might as well go for the overall tricksyness factor to compensate (I've won a few races off chumping off something big with ravager and moving the counters to a flyer). Anyone else has any experience with this?

Also @cutting the 1-mana 2-for-1: no. Confidant is slow, susceptible to removal (which is a concern since it's such a tempo sink early on) and bad versus aggro decks.

[Pltnmngl]

Nothing replaces Thoughtcast. That card is a 4-of and each list with fewer than 4 is not optimal. drawing two cards for 1 mana is a lot better than confidant, especially as this deck doesn't appreciate non-artifact permanents.

And as for Moxes, I basically agree. That's why I will probably use 3, not 4. But still 4 is possible. It's really hard to decide for a card, which ypou want to see in your opening hand but which you don't want to have more than once per game.

@ Royal Ass: As far as Etched Champion is concerned I would use it only in the sideboard. There are only a couple of decks he's really strong against, namely aggro decks like Bant, Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins. Against other decks he's just too slow with 3 mana 2/2 and his Pro can't make up for that. Also it competes with Master for the CMC 3 slot and I don't think that Affinity can run more than 4-5 CMC 3 cards main (and I'd really not cut Masters fpr Champion).

And Confidant seems good on paper but in parctise it is rather disappointing in Affinity. It is a great draw engine for faster Control decks like CounterTop and for slower Aggro decks like Rock. But for Affinity it is really too slow. Affinity can (and has to) win incredibly fast, which is its biggest selling point. Confidant is a card that would try to imprve the deck's midgame. This is pretty useless because we will be pretty much dead if it comes to the midgame anyway. No Bob will prevent that. Thoughtcast is the only draw spell that is efficient, explosive and reliable enough to fit this deck.

While I agree, I think that if someone is going to run Confidant, Thoughtcast has to go. I don't plan on running him, but I can see a meta where he could work.

[adamt]

Bob's give the deck some redundancy... for hands where you drop everything by turn two and id much rather have a bob and thoughtcasts in the deck to know I'm refilling my hand with threats. The list im running had 4 gblasts, 2sblasts also.

if you are running bobs with no lifegain, i wouldn't be putting frogmites in the deck.

[Izor]

if you are running bobs with no lifegain, i wouldn't be putting frogmites in the deck.

Which is another reason not to run Bobs. Thoughtcast, Frogmite and even Myr Enforcer simply belong into this deck and a card that forces us to remove our Affinity cards (what's the deck called again?) can't help it. IF one really wants to build an artifact based Aggro deck with Confidant, that's fine, but without Thoughtcast, Frogmite and Enforcer there is no point in discussing that deck in this thread.

[Nuke-tified]

Dark Confidant has been an absolute house in every single game i've played with him in affinity. I took out Myr Enforcer, blasphemy, I know, and put Confidant in that slot. I kept Thoughtcast and Frogmite, and they are the only cards with CMC>3 i'm playing right now. He's amazing. When he sticks, you win. Otherwise, he makes pretty solid counter-bait and is also a removal magnet. We all knew that already, but he eats removal or counters to let you get your Cranial plating or whatever else to stick. I usually hate to run many spells that cost more than three in a deck with Confidant, but it's off-set by Ornithopter, Memnite, Mox Opal, etc. To address the idea of playing Confidant with no life-gain, I have not had very many games where I felt like "Gee, I sure could use some life gain about now." and it makes sense. You're affinity. If you can't win before Confidant kills you, you weren't winning that game anyway. The last time I played affinity in a tournament, I took first on the back of Confidant. Granted, it was a small local tourney, but I managed to 2-0 a burn deck that played main-deck Ensnaring Bridge, and after sb-ing, four Price of Progress.

[eq.firemind]

Nuke-tified, could you please share your list?
I think additional CA will be great for affinity (and Confidant is one of the best draw engines in existence) and very interested in every opinion on that topic.

As far as it goes, did anyone tried Standstill in Affinity? With the deck's current speed (Mox Opal gives powerfull and consistent acceleration), we can shit lots of dudes and back it up with standstill extremely early, forcing opponent to break it.
Another strong effect we can now abuse is Winter Orb + Vedalken Certarch + nonland mana. This literally locks out opponent's mana while we still can play our cheap/free creatures with Mox Opal/Springleaf Drum.
It's like the old Armageddon White Weenie (and its evolution Angel Stompy) - drop some dudes and cast Armageddon to keep early board advantage. Both Standstill and Winter Orb do the same thing for Affinity. Man, even Artifact land, Mox Opal, Memnite, Standstill is good.
Here's the list I'm going to test soon:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den/Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Opal
2 Springleaf Drum

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
2 Frogmite

2 Dispeller's Capsule/Executioner's Capsule
4 Cranial Plating
3 Winter Orb
3 Standstill
4 Thoughtcast

The main issue is Executioner's Capsule vs Dispeller's Capsule. The first one kills manadorks and everything else you want, but the second one solves the worst problem for both Orb and Still plan: Aether Vial, and also destroys moxes, jittes and other bad things you might see.
Steel Overseer is the star 'cause he works extremely good under both Still and Orb.
Another star is Vedalken Certarch. This guy + Orb is like one-sided Stasis and he can also tap everything on the way of your robots (i.e acts as pseudo-removal).
Another thing to consider is the returning of Aether Vial to the deck to be able to play under Standstill.

[Oiolosse]

@eq.firemind -- I'd drop the capsules for pithing needle. It's super versatile and adds much needed protection to affinity's super exposed list.

[adamt]

Cedric just posted a not so interesting Glimpse list on his SCG premium article..

the gist of his list is (which just seems like its the deck from the SCG Nashville 5k):

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Glint Hawk
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtcast
2 Cranial Plating

4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
2 Glimmervoid

2 cranials? 4 springleaf drum?
most decks in legacy can deal with a flipped erayo somewhat easily other than combo decks.
sure the thing draws a ton of cards, but....

[largebrandon]

After playing the list on MTGO 2 man queues a half dozen times, I'd have to say that this list is insane!! It is very good and very very fast and consistent. You always have a huge army by turn 2, 3 at the latest. Try it out, you'll love it.

[Pltnmngl]

While I see where he's going, I can't say I like the list. It makes the deck too combo-like.

[jandax]

Wait, so Affinity isn't a combo deck?

[keys]

^ lol my thoughts exactly.

I like Cedric's list, and it isn't even tuned. It's so easy to flip Erayo with Opal, Hawk and Memnite.

[Pltnmngl]

Adding more non-synergetic pieces in order to go off efficiently makes it more combo than aggro.

[adamt]

Saito recently published a list on CFB for affinity with FOW's... not sure how much I like it..

* 4 Vedalken Certarch
* 4 Frogmite
* 4 Myr Enforcer
* 3 Somber Hoverguard
* 4 Memnite
* 2 Ornithopter
* 3 Master of Eterium
* 4 Springleaf Drum
* 4 Cranial Plating
* 4 Thoughtcast
* 3 Chromatic Star
* 4 Force of Will
* 4 Mox Opal
* 4 Seat of the Synod
* 4 Great Furnace
* 4 Ancient Den
* 1 Vault of Whispers
* Sideboard
* 4 Leonin Arbiter
* 4 Galvanic Blast
* 3 Nihil Spellbomb
* 4 Swords to Plowshares

like the sideboard, but Hoverguards are not so hot... id rather run brainstorms there and a 4 Master...

[bowvamp]

I agree, 4 Master of Etherium, but for Affownity I can see running 3 hoverguards. For the last Master, I'd probably cut Chromatic Star down to two.

[slothfest00]

Here is the current list I am toying with:

* Creatures
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Etched Champion
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
3 Court Homunculus
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite

* Non-Creature
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Mox Opal
4 Thoughtcast

* Lands
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Tree of Tales
3 Glimmervoid

It's actually working out quite well. The reason for the Homunculus (which is still in testing) was because I wanted a 1-drop artifact creature that was more than a 1/1. It's actually not that bad.

I've had pretty explosive turn 2 attacks. A turn 2 swing with an equipped plating has happened a few times.

A game I just played today went like this:
Turn 1: Land, Drum, Memnite, Thopter, Frogmite. Tap drum/thopter and play Thoughtcast. I drew a Enforcer and another land. (Currently holding Enforcer, Plating, Land)
Turn 2: Land. Tap 2 lands, play Plating. Play a free Enforcer. Tap drum/thopter to equip Plating to Frogmite.

Swing with a 10/2 Frogmite and a 1/1 Memnite. I think I did all that math right... heh.

Granted this was a spectacular hand, but second turn big swings have happened a few times. Turn 2 Master of Etherium is great as well - makes Homunculus a 3/3 for 1cc which is pretty efficient.

Anyway, just was reading through this thread and thought I'd share my current list. Any feedback/comments would be appreciated.

[Greenpoe]

Here's my list. It's trades some of the explosiveness of traditional affinity for added consistency. I wasn't a fan of Ravager because of the bad synergy with Plating and Master of Etherium, so I figured Steel Overseer is much better, putting +1/+1 counters on everything once a turn rather than one big effect. With Ravager, one Swords can ruin your day. Here, I run 16 must-counter spells: Master, Steel Overseer, Dark Confidant and Cranial Plating. Dark Confidant is the best card in the deck since Affinity empties it's hand so easily. The 1x The Abyss is to lock up the game against creature-based decks, and occasionally wins games. Academy Ruins helps vs. control and blue decks. 4x Mox Opal and 3x Springleaf drum is because the deck needs explosiveness and color fixing.

Dark Confidant and Steel Overseer shines vs. Merfolk and the other aggro/control decks. The deck can be a little weak vs. fast aggro, but the slower the deck, the more the consistency of Confidant/Overseer helps. Galvanic Blast is mostly a mid to late game card, to either finish off the opponent or (more often) clear out a blocker.

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
3 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SOM] Galvanic Blast
1 [LG] The Abyss

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
SB: 1 [LG] The Abyss
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [R] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast

The sideboard is just thrown together and still up in the air.

[fallenphoenix]

Instead of Dark Confidant, I would much rather run Riddlesmith. Same body, ~same function, but he's much faster.
Also, since I've seen the card in action, I'd run no less than 3 Etched Champion, probably 4.

[Greenpoe]

Riddlesmith is not card advantage though. With Riddlesmith, you're forced to choose between actually playing your cards or cycling them away. Plus, you have to play a non-land to trigger the cycling anyway. Also, if you play your hand (as Affinity often likes to do), Riddlesmith becomes virtually worthless when you're in topdeck mode, unless you want to wait another turn, then play one of those cards and cycle the other away. With Confidant, he makes the cards that you would be throwing away to Riddlesmith useful. Extra lands=more resilience to wasteland, plus a better ability to play the extra cards you're drawing. Plus, with Confidant, nearly every card you draw gives +1/+1 to Master and +1/+0 to anything with a plating. Since 28 cards have a CMC of zero, Confidant's drawback isn't a big deal.

[Oiolosse]

I don't like Bob in affinity. You drop your hand fast and he just slowly refills it. Often times you just need a quick boost to finish off the last bit of life. Thirst for Knowledge is great here. Redundant lands, Moxen, Memnites can be discarded for reach.

If you are going on explosiveness then don't you think Shrapnel Blast would help? I have found this to be great.

[fallenphoenix]

I'd certainly run Riddlesmith over TfK though. It's debatable for sure, but the smith is cheaper and carries a stick like a boss. Also, the effect is repeatable and will give you a bunch of ressources rapidly, which is kind of what this deck wants anyway.

Bob creates real CA and is better when you're completely out of gas, but it's much slower and can be a bit awkward when you flip a bunch of 3CC and 4CC cards.

@Shrapnel Blast: Galvanic Blast is the new Shrapnel Blast, that card is sick.

[Izor]

What Riddlesmith does is milling ourselves as soon as we're in topdeck mode (which we will usually be by turn 3). It gives you no ressources and that's not really what we want to have.

Bob's nature as a non-artifact creature slows the deck down more than it could ever speed up the late game. Affinity's only chance to prove itself in the current metagame is being the fastest aggro deck around. We want and definitely have to win by turn 3-4 in order to have a chance in the metagame. So both Bob and Smith are very poor choices.
Thirst for Knowledge is also too slow. We have Thoughtcast.

[The Big Ragu]

How are Sen Triplets in this deck? Too slow?

[JimmyC27]

@The Big Ragu: I don't see 5 mana very often whenever I'm playing this deck.


Question of my own: has anyone had any luck with the Erayo version of this deck? I don't see much discussion on it in this forum.

[Melwis]

Nuke-tified, could you please share your list?
I think additional CA will be great for affinity (and Confidant is one of the best draw engines in existence) and very interested in every opinion on that topic.

As far as it goes, did anyone tried Standstill in Affinity? With the deck's current speed (Mox Opal gives powerfull and consistent acceleration), we can shit lots of dudes and back it up with standstill extremely early, forcing opponent to break it.
Another strong effect we can now abuse is Winter Orb + Vedalken Certarch + nonland mana. This literally locks out opponent's mana while we still can play our cheap/free creatures with Mox Opal/Springleaf Drum.
It's like the old Armageddon White Weenie (and its evolution Angel Stompy) - drop some dudes and cast Armageddon to keep early board advantage. Both Standstill and Winter Orb do the same thing for Affinity. Man, even Artifact land, Mox Opal, Memnite, Standstill is good.
Here's the list I'm going to test soon:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den/Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Opal
2 Springleaf Drum

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Steel Overseer
4 Master of Etherium
2 Frogmite

2 Dispeller's Capsule/Executioner's Capsule
4 Cranial Plating
3 Winter Orb
3 Standstill
4 Thoughtcast

The main issue is Executioner's Capsule vs Dispeller's Capsule. The first one kills manadorks and everything else you want, but the second one solves the worst problem for both Orb and Still plan: Aether Vial, and also destroys moxes, jittes and other bad things you might see.
Steel Overseer is the star 'cause he works extremely good under both Still and Orb.
Another star is Vedalken Certarch. This guy + Orb is like one-sided Stasis and he can also tap everything on the way of your robots (i.e acts as pseudo-removal).
Another thing to consider is the returning of Aether Vial to the deck to be able to play under Standstill.

Having almost zero knowledge of Affinity I have read some of the last posts and I got my eyes on your list. What do you think of the list below? I decided to make the deck abuse Standstill to the fullest as you might notice:

// Lands
4 [HOP] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [MPR] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [M11] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Vedalken Certarch
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [HOP] Master of Etherium
2 [MR] Frogmite

// Spells
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
2 [5E] Winter Orb
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
2 [DS] AEther Vial

[The Big Ragu]

I'm surprised Glimmervoid and Indomitable Angel aren't used more often.

[alphastorm]

Can someone update the first post? I am pretty sure we all agree memnite is a good replacement for the worker.

[the Thin White Duke]

I'm surprised Glimmervoid and Indomitable Angel aren't used more often.

You really don't want to shroud your creatures. It nerfs your ability to equip your own creatures and use modular. Plus the Angel isn't an artifact.

[The Big Ragu]

You really don't want to shroud your creatures. It nerfs your ability to equip your own creatures and use modular. Plus the Angel isn't an artifact.

Good point. Logic always seems to prevail on this message board.

[Heresy]

What do you think of...

Lands :

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins (Too cute to be relevant?) Test: AR is a late game card so no reason to play it.

Creatures :

4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Memnite (Now 4 Ornithopter)

Spells :

4 Thoughtcast
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
2 Shrapnel Blast (Flex Slot I guess)

Sideboard :

4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle

I came up with it basically reading the thread and picking/stealing ideas here and there.

Edit: After testing the list is this but :
-1 Academy Ruins for +1 Darksteel Citadel
And -4 Memnite for +4 Ornithopter because the extra power is inferior to evasion.

[ManOrAstroman]

I like your build Heresy

Perhaps the best build : THE classic affinity ravager deck with the new cards of Scar of mirrodin (mox opal, Galvanic Blast)


I think that the big problem of Affinity Ravager deck, is not the MU or middle tournament's result... It's about synergy and game play.

When, 3 years ago, I playtest Faerie stompy deck for example, I'm very surprised and happy to see all of synergy build. All of cards work together, 2 by 2, 3 by 3 etc... Some Aggro, some discrupt, some control, some cards advantage... it's like MAGIC !

Probably Affinity Ravager is the most synergical deck, but it's a Wizards of the Coast's Synergy. Finally we don't have the same pleasure. It's difficult to appropriate the deck and think it's your deck.

[Heresy]

Thanks for the kind words! But I repeat this is based on other people ideas. I'm wondering if Memnite should replace Ornithopter? Lack of evasion is bad. Academy Ruins is gone like I wrote in the list.

Edit: Decklist updated.

[Karhumies]

I have created an Affinity-like aggro-control deck for the early 2011 Legacy meta, and would like to receive help from seasoned Affinity players to develop it further. For the lack of a better name, I call it UWx Metalcraft aggro-control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19573-UWx-Metalcraft-Control).

Current deck list: (reasoning for card selections in the deck development thread)
// Main deck (60)
// Lands (16)
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb

// Mana (8)
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle

// Control (8)
4 Chalice of the Void @ 1
4 Ethersworn Canonist

// Other creatures (18)
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
2 Arcbound Ravager
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Master of Etherium
2 Etched Champion

// Equipment (4)
4 Cranial Plating

// Draw (6)
4 Thoughtcast
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
4 Trickbind
4 Tormod's Crypt
7 ???

[Pltnmngl]

I'm digging the build. My only "concern" is that I prefer Chalice @ 0 to improve the combo matchup, however, setting it at 1 hurts their sideboard options much more, effects the rest of the format and speeds us up a whole lot. Have you considered mixing this list with the Erayo/Glimpse decks that everybody keeps talking about? This is the most recent build I've seen:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum

Artifact Creatures
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter

Instants
3 Repeal

Legendary Artifacts
4 Mox Opal

Legendary Creatures
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtcast

Artifact Lands
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
1 Darksteel Citadel

Lands
1 Glimmervoid

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap

Actually, with a sideboard like that, you don't need to stress over the combo matchup much, do you?

[SMR0079]

Disciple of the Vault + Ravager/Atog +Etched Champion + Cranial Plating = Win

While there may be competitive alternatives, the burden on not running these cards is on the other side.

[Karhumies]

As I have been pointed out in the deck's own thread, combo still has Hurkyl's Recall to screw my chalices over. Also, no one prevents you from dropping Chalice @ 0 if you like after you have dropped all of your cc0 T1. :P

Nevertheless, about MD choices:

-2 Arcbound Ravager
+2 Wasteland

Ravager without Fling, Soul's Fire or Disciple was not really worth the slots. I have dropped him experimentally for 2x Wasteland / rainbow land (Gemstone Mine). The intention is to reduce my dependancy on artifact lands to avoid getting mana screwed by my opponent (EE @ 0, Pernicious Deed @ 0, Wasteland). Truth be told, I have not thought of anything really relevant & synergistic to add into the last 2 slots.

Erayo is not so great in this build. Someone else may opt to +4 Erayo to up the blue count for +4 FoW, but I prefer fast clock over control. The problem is, I have already cast all my cheap spells T1 to set up Chalice/Canonist/Plating. So when Erayo hits the table T2+, it's too late (#of cards remaining in hand-wise) to flip him. Unless you just jam 4 of Erayo in deck and hope to have him in opening hand every time with T1 flip, which seems silly to me. Also, the decklist above had 11x 1-drop vs my 0 due to Chalice. Very different builds. I am still a bit puzzled by what the Erayo deck is supposed to win with. It seems to be all about the lock, but Lotus Petal->countered by Erayo, bounce Canonist, kill Erayo or combo off absolves it. And especially if the lock fails due to countermagic, the clock seems horribly slow unless the deck draws into MoE.

About Sb choices:
+4 Leonin Arbiter (-2 SFM and -2 E.Champion to bring him in)
+2 Wasteland (-2 Darksteel Citadel to bring these in & raise MD count to 4-of Wasteland)
was the best I could think of. Combined with Trickbind, this sets up a mana denial package against fetches and duals.

I have been suggested to run 4x L.Arbiter main instead of 2x SFM and 2x A.Ravager/W.land, but I am not completely sold on that yet.

Since I had still 1 SB slot remaining, I followed the recommendation of diversifying my equipment. +1 SoFI/SoLS/Jitte there (not sure which). Probably a cc3 sword to go past opposing Spell Snare and dodge EE @ 2, Chalice @ 2, etc.

[Greenpoe]

My biggest problem with the classic build of Affinity is it runs out steam much too quickly. After quite a bit of testing with various builds of Affinity, I've found that dropping the Ravager+Disciple combo in favor of Steel Overseer+Dark Confidant is much better to destroy any deck that doesn't win by turn 4 or so, basically trading a bit of speed for much greater consistency. Disciple's a huge target for removal, and while this is the case with several of the creatures in the deck, Disciple is weak without Ravager. Sure, he might ping your opponent after some of your creatures die from combat without Ravager, but he's not good compared to Confidant, because Confidant will win you game alone. The argument against Confidant is that he's too slow, I often find he either: draws a land/mox that I wouldn't otherwise have, letting me play a spell I wouldn't otherwise be able to either through extra mana or color fixing. If he draws a plating, equip and win. If he draws Master, it gives the immediate +1/+1. If he draws anything, it buffs Master and Plating. Granted, Confidant can be weak vs. Zoo, Burn, but he's fantastic against any aggro/control deck (since he's another must-answer creature) and excellent against any blue deck, any deck with discard (to refill your hand), etc. Steel Overseer is fantastic when combined with the slightly slower, more consistent approach of Confidant while still retaining most of the deck's speed. With 8 zero drops + Frogmite, Overseer gives a lord effect every turn, which has won me countless games vs. Merfolk. They'd have 4 lords out, but I'd have Overseer, buffing at EOT to match and surpass their P/T. My deck also runs The Abyss a 1-of, since it doesn't have to much trouble hitting 4 mana with Confidant, 3 Drum and 4 mox

[TheSleeper]

Does anyone have a list that is metagamed to beat Zoo? I really like Heresy's more classic build, just wondering if Etched Champion is worth including since the meta here is all Paths and Nacatls.

[Karhumies]

My biggest problem with the classic build of Affinity is it runs out steam much too quickly.

I dropped the Ravager-Disciple combo ages ago. For extra gas, I initially tried Dark Condifant (too slow unless you get him out with T1 Mox Opal), which I dropped for Thirst for Knowledge (kinda nice but bad in multiples in opening hand), which I dropped for Jace, the Mind Sculptor (has more all-around uses such as bouncing blockers and Peacekeeper besides "just" the extra gas). Yet, in the spin-off UWx Metalcraft aggro-control thread, I have been suggested Arcane Denial which seems nifty when paired with redundant cc0 cards (2nd Mox Opal, topdecked Ornitopter/Memnite, etc.). Basically, it has the potential to act as a Thirst for Knowledge for 1U instead of 2U, with the added benefit of relevant interaction with the opponent.

Also, if you are running white, 2x Stoneforge Mystic in the main deck is not a bad idea. Plating is THE card you want to find from the deck with D.Confidant/E.Tutor/whatever draw effect, anyway, and S.Mystic even puts it into play through opposing counterspells.

[Lejay]

Does anyone have a list that is metagamed to beat Zoo?

I'm pretty sure you will beat zoo with this list :

1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
1 Arcbound Ravager
1 Disciple of the Vault
2 Salvage Titan
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Riddlesmith
2 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtcast
SB: 4 Tarmogoyf
SB: 4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Cranial Plating
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

But it probably deserves another thread to be discussed.

[Karhumies]

Does anyone have a list that is metagamed to beat Zoo?

The last time I checked from The Zoo thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12624-%5BDTB%5D-Zoo/page161), they were running around 18 one-drops and 22 lands. This leaves them with 20 non-cc1 spells. So, half of their deck (including their biggest annoyances: Path to Exile, bolt removal/reach and SB Pithing Needle) will be shut down with T1 Chalice @ 1. I would recommend checking the UWx Metalcraft control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19573-UWx-Metalcraft-Control) thread on how to accomplish exactly that in an Affinity-like shell.

Qasali Pridemage will be their only MD response, but using up three mana for that should already have given you a couple of "time walks" to run them over.

[Greenpoe]

I dropped the Ravager-Disciple combo ages ago. For extra gas, I initially tried Dark Condifant (too slow unless you get him out with T1 Mox Opal), which I dropped for Thirst for Knowledge (kinda nice but bad in multiples in opening hand), which I dropped for Jace, the Mind Sculptor (has more all-around uses such as bouncing blockers and Peacekeeper besides "just" the extra gas). Yet, in the spin-off UWx Metalcraft aggro-control thread, I have been suggested Arcane Denial which seems nifty when paired with redundant cc0 cards (2nd Mox Opal, topdecked Ornitopter/Memnite, etc.). Basically, it has the potential to act as a Thirst for Knowledge for 1U instead of 2U, with the added benefit of relevant interaction with the opponent.

Also, if you are running white, 2x Stoneforge Mystic in the main deck is not a bad idea. Plating is THE card you want to find from the deck with D.Confidant/E.Tutor/whatever draw effect, anyway, and S.Mystic even puts it into play through opposing counterspells.

Confidant in affinity should be played like Brainstorm rather than Standstill. With Standstill, you want to drop it ASAP (at least, when you're position is neutral or favorable), but Brainstorm, you want to wait. It's the same thing with Confidant. You rarely want to drop him on T1. Instead, start out with something else. If you have an untapped creature, go for Springleaf. If you have 2 mana, go for Steel Overseer or Cranial Plating, but not Confidant just yet. This is because if they don't answer Steel Overseer, it'll establish better tempo for you in the short term than Confidant and if they have a swords, I'd rather have Overseer get hit by that than Confidant. The only reason to drop Confidant on T1 would be if you have a 1-land hand, but even then, Overseer would usually be better since he'll get hit by removal instead and you can use Confidant on T2 to get more lands. In short, play Confidant when you can afford it rather than as soon as possible. Drawing a card every turn is not too slow unless you're meta is filled with red (goblins, burn, and zoo). If you're facing pretty much anything else, Confidant is great.

[Karhumies]

Confidant in affinity should be played like Brainstorm rather than Standstill. - - Drawing a card every turn is not too slow unless you're meta is filled with red (goblins, burn, and zoo). If you're facing pretty much anything else, Confidant is great.

T2+ Confidant is too slow versus decks with fundamental turn 4-. Examples include Solidarity, TES, Dredge, some Elf combo decks and Sneaky Show. Versus these decks, you need either faster draw effects (e.g. Thirst for Knowledge), faster finishers (e.g. Fling, Disciple+Ravager) or relevant interaction (e.g. Arcane Denial, Ethersworn Canonist, Duress/Thoughtseize, Tidehollow Sculler) which compete with the same slot with Dark Confidant. While D.Confidant is a staple in black decks, those decks have traditionally run Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, etc. to ensure that the D.Confidant player does not get killed before he can benefit from D.Confidant.

[BattlefieldMedic]

Signal Pest

1
Artifact Creature - Pest
Battle cry (Whenever this creature attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn.)


Signal Pest can't be blocked except by creatures with flying or reach.
0/1
---

anyone?

[Justin]

Signal Pest

Artifact Creature - Pest
Battle cry (Whenever this creature attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn.)


Signal Pest can't be blocked except by creatures with flying or reach.
0/1
---

anyone?

What does it replace? I wouldn't play it over Ornithopter or Memnite, because I'd rather play a zero mana creature than a 1cc creature such as Signal Pest. The Pest is probably better than Roterothopter or Arcbound Worker, but those cards aren't played so much anymore because Meminte is a better replacement.

[BattlefieldMedic]

What does it replace? I wouldn't play it over Ornithopter or Memnite, because I'd rather play a zero mana creature than a 1cc creature such as Signal Pest. The Pest is probably better than Roterothopter or Arcbound Worker, but those cards aren't played so much anymore because Meminte is a better replacement.

This card is basically a 1cc Lord in terms of offense that's awesome in multiples. I think it definitely has the potential to replace one of the 0cc's or another 1cc card like drum. It gives affinity the offensive push and lord effect that it may need to be competitive again.

[Kanti]

What the hell is wrong with you people. You are derailing Affinity so much. Confidant>Thoughtcast? What the hell? And Memnite over Worker? You really wouldn't want to pay 1 mana for modular? I've tested Memnite and it sucks. And taking out Vial? Why even play Affinity if it isn't to beat CB-Top?

That new lord looks awesome. Makes our CB-Top match-up even better as he gives a clock. He should replace the 4 Workers.

Here's to hoping that Beseiged has more to offer.

[kkoie]

The lord certainly adds interesting prospects. However I would not be so hasty to discount memnite. That along with Mox Opal has made the deck a turn faster as far as I could tell when it came to emptying your hand. This has allowed me to cast turn 1 cannonists with ease. Which I might add, I think will still be relevant, despite survival's demise. I think that counterbalance and combo will see a bit of a resurgance.

Here's the list I have been playing in testing to favorable results:

4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
27 dudes

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
12 spells

4 Mox Opal
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
21 mana

SB
2 Ronom Unicorn
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Etherswown Cannonist

I would like to somehow fit diciples back into the deck, but so far I have not yet figured out what to cut. In testing the 3 maindeck cannonists have helped a lot against the harder combo match. I am not set on the sideboard, still trying to figure that one out. If null rod's are really that popular as hate, then I will try and fit in some echoing truth's.

Running 4 mox opals has not been a problem. I have been able to get hits metalcraft online by turn 1 rather frequently. Running only 17 lands hasn't been an issue either since I have 4 mox.

[FieryBalrog]

What the hell is wrong with you people. You are derailing Affinity so much. Confidant>Thoughtcast? What the hell? And Memnite over Worker? You really wouldn't want to pay 1 mana for modular? I've tested Memnite and it sucks.

While Confidant vs Thoughtcast is at least a discussion, Memnite vs Worker is not. Memnite is nuts compared to Worker, Worker blows. No one gives a fuck about modular anymore.

[Karhumies]

@ Kanti and kkoie: if you are playing Affinity to wreck Counterbalance decks as a meta choice, I would try fitting 2x Stoneforge Mystic into the main deck. Vialing Mystic into play at opponent's EOT, tutor Plating, then activate Mystic + equip on your own turn is an incredibly strong play. Not to mention that with Mox Opal, you are sometimes able to hardcast Mystic T1 (just like E.Canonist), so unless they have FoW, they are going to have an incredibly hard time for the remainder of the game.

[kkoie]

I was thinking of including 2 mystic and cutting 1-2 plating for a jitte and possibly a sword of fire/ice. But I would have to make room. What are thoughts on running less than 4 myr enforcer? They seem to be the few heavy hitters in the deck that do not need other artifacts to be big (like master of etherium) and do not need tricks (like arcbound ravager). I have seen a few lists that cut them entirely. Are they not that nessessary anymore??

[Kanti]

Confidant vs Thoughtcast is not a discussion. Confidant blows as he gets hit by removal and Deed and doesn't give CA right away. And you have x4 Frogmites ans x4 Enforcers, high CC cards that you don't want to hit.

Modular is extremly important. There are too many games where I had Memnite cast t1 and a mana open. Stop goldfishing and go play against a competent opponent. Worker is leaps and bounds better in the Thresh match and Zoo matchups, matchups you want to win.

Canonist in the main seems to suck. When Survival was around I'd say go for it, and replace Workers with Heap Dolls, but now it is gone and we should shift out focus back to beating CB-Top and creature decks.

[AggroSteve]

i do not know if this would fit into this thread since this list does not use any vials, but here is a intresting list i just found, and it made 8th place in kansas

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36116

it uses no Masters of etherium, which seems quite strange to me but maximises the use of arcbound ravager but i have to say i like the list (but the landcount seems odd), specially because its not as much as othe affinity-decks in sense of playing against a wall^^
i specially like the glimpse of nature because with a lot of non-cost creatures it can be quite effective

just a question since i put my affinity aside now for a few years i am not sure about the answer, does disciple trigger with the thopter-tokens that are sacrificed for ravager?, honestly i am not sure and thopter foundry was not yet printed when i stopped playing this deck, but i am considering picking this deck up again, since it was my first deck ever in legacy

so please tell me what do you think of this list, and please tell me about the disciple-token-thing, since it depends strongly on this if i am considering this list, or a similar one

[Justin]

i do not know if this would fit into this thread since this list does not use any vials, but here is a intresting list i just found, and it made 8th place in kansas

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36116

it uses no Masters of etherium, which seems quite strange to me but maximises the use of arcbound ravager but i have to say i like the list (but the landcount seems odd), specially because its not as much as othe affinity-decks in sense of playing against a wall^^
i specially like the glimpse of nature because with a lot of non-cost creatures it can be quite effective

just a question since i put my affinity aside now for a few years i am not sure about the answer, does disciple trigger with the thopter-tokens that are sacrificed for ravager?, honestly i am not sure and thopter foundry was not yet printed when i stopped playing this deck, but i am considering picking this deck up again, since it was my first deck ever in legacy

so please tell me what do you think of this list, and please tell me about the disciple-token-thing, since it depends strongly on this if i am considering this list, or a similar one

It's an interesting list. It's been a long time since Affinity made top eight at a major event, so this result presents some hope. By the way, Disciple of the Vault's ability can trigger (if you don't forget to use it) when you sac a thopter token (or any artifact token for that matter). They still go to the graveyard. So yes, Disciple can be a very strong card in this build of Affinity. My concern with the deck is that it plays Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek without a way to tutor for either card.

[Greenpoe]

Confidant vs Thoughtcast is not a discussion. Confidant blows as he gets hit by removal and Deed and doesn't give CA right away. And you have x4 Frogmites ans x4 Enforcers, high CC cards that you don't want to hit.

Modular is extremly important. There are too many games where I had Memnite cast t1 and a mana open. Stop goldfishing and go play against a competent opponent. Worker is leaps and bounds better in the Thresh match and Zoo matchups, matchups you want to win.

Canonist in the main seems to suck. When Survival was around I'd say go for it, and replace Workers with Heap Dolls, but now it is gone and we should shift out focus back to beating CB-Top and creature decks.

I play both. After hundreds of games, I still like having both Thoughtcast and Confidant in the same deck. Lands+4x Mox+8x 0cc creatures+1 drops leaves most of the deck at a pretty low CMC, so more than half the time, you take 0 or 1 damage. Confidant wins games, at least in my build, he's the best card in the deck.

[AggroSteve]

By the way, Disciple of the Vault's ability can trigger (if you don't forget to use it) when you sac a thopter token (or any artifact token for that matter). They still go to the graveyard. So yes, Disciple can be a very strong card in this build of Affinity

lovely^^, in this case i will definitely build my affinity deck again, and the thing i love the most about the list i posted is that thopter foundry and sword of the meek give a mide-lategame-plan


. My concern with the deck is that it plays Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek without a way to tutor for either card.

i do not think that foundry or sword are bad as singletons even if you cannot tutor for them, the list i posted had 12 1/1 creatures (ravager, worker, memnite) so sword can be recurred quite often even without thopter foundry, and foundry alone is effective as well, since we can use every artefact we do not need anymore to generate some thopters with evasion for plating

as i just stated i find the absence of Master of etherium rather strange, what do you guys think about it?

[Justin]

lovely^^, in this case i will definitely build my affinity deck again, and the thing i love the most about the list i posted is that thopter foundry and sword of the meek give a mide-lategame-plan



i do not think that foundry or sword are bad as singletons even if you cannot tutor for them, the list i posted had 12 1/1 creatures (ravager, worker, memnite) so sword can be recurred quite often even without thopter foundry, and foundry alone is effective as well, since we can use every artefact we do not need anymore to generate some thopters with evasion for plating

as i just stated i find the absence of Master of etherium rather strange, what do you guys think about it?

Improving the speed of the deck is the only reason I can see for omitting Master. Still, the list runs two Etched Champion. I would rather play Master as a 3cc creature in that spot. Master can be a real house in this deck.

[Sims]

Improving the speed of the deck is the only reason I can see for omitting Master. Still, the list runs two Etched Champion. I would rather play Master as a 3cc creature in that spot. Master can be a real house in this deck.

While Master is a house, I've got to throw out there that a major reason I've won a large portion of my games in testing is due to Champion. Having a threat/blocker that won't eat path/swords is absolutely amazing, especially when playing with plating and moving counters around with ravager. The more i play with him the more I don't think the deck will be competitive without him.

[Pltnmngl]

I've been meaning to post on here for the past couple days, but have yet to make time until now.

First off, I love the list that Top 8 in Kansas. There are some things about the list that I don't feel comfortable with, but I'm okay with that. Some say discomfort creates potential for growth, which is the point of this forum. It's definitely a list that I want to pick up. I love the usage of Glimpse of Nature. It's good to see that it is being considered and has potential. A lot of top players such as Chapin and Saito have talked about Affinity using that card for quite a while.

Speaking of Chapin, he released an article not too long ago talking about building a deck that is just a bad version of another deck. This got me thinking...Does the use of Glimpse of Nature make this a bad Elf combo deck? Or is this a better Elf combo?

I am concerned that people are going to see this list as an omen for what is about to come. A lot of people are claiming that Affinity is going to make (or already has made) a comeback, which is definitely not the case. We all know this deck isn't good enough for people to start packing Hurkly's Recalls and Null Rod. While our speed has increased, a few of the deck's weaknesses haven't been addressed well enough yet.

Lastly, I like Signal Pest. My only issue is that using it would make us depend even more on our swarming strategy and probably takes away some of the deck's resilience. I can't see it being played highly in Legacy.