[Deck] Affinity [Archive] - Page 6

waSP

04-26-2013, 03:34 AM

In case anyone is looking for alternative takes on Affinity, this one is fairly strong if the metagame swings another way.

Mana
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Opal
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Vault of Whispers
1 Island
1 Paradise Mantle
1 Swamp

Creatures
4 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dark Confidant
3 Ornithopter
2 Etched Champion

Draw/search
4 Thoughtcast
1 Steelshaper's Gift

Blowouts
4 Cranial Plating
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Fling

This list is a little bit old but has a different structure than I've seen on here. It's more midrange-y (extra lands!) and less susceptible to some common hate (Pyroclasm, Pernicious Deed, Terminus). This comes with the tweak to the landbase. 5 fewer artifact lands generally means you're winning a turn later. But you've got more resiliency with the manlands. Depending on how you play out matches, you may want Inkmoth Nexus over Factory. I usually don't get my opponents under 10 before I want to start attacking with lands, so Factory it is. They also can block Bears and survive (Snapcaster, etc.).

I think this runs fairly similarly in matchups as compared to most Affinity decks but will be better equipped if your opponent has a lot of hate. It has the inevitability (unless facing down a deed) that I think this deck lacks a lot of the time. If they can answer your first three guys, usually you're in trouble. Here, you've got a higher threat density (although slower).

Steelshaper's Gift is a bit of underutilized tech. It can be Platings 5-x if you're running aggro. It's nice to be able to search up the lone Mantle if colored mana is needed. Its low cost makes it superior to Stoneforge Mystic in most builds.

Fling is underplayed. I've succeeded with two in the past, but like Bob #3 more.

With the current meta, the Revokers should probably be Canonists. Not sure about that. Revoker is often quite good!

I don't usually get the chance to play this, so I wanted to offer it up to the community.

Shawon

04-28-2013, 06:32 PM

Had some time this weekend to work on the primer. I think these are all the relevant and current matchups that I can think of (minus Stoneblade, will do that later). I have some stuff written on card choices, such as Stoneforge Mystic, but nothing primer-presentable yet.

Read the matchups and let me know if I should add anything specific (interactions, what cards to board out, or just more detail into the matchup). Keep in mind, this is still all rough draft.

Show & Tell (Sneak-Show, Omni-Tell, etc.)
Game 1 is usually an auto-loss, but play it out anyways. Remember Leonin Bola stops Emrakul cold, and remember that you can use your opponent’s Show and Tell to cheat your own Stoneforge Mystic into play. Then, you can use SFM to find Leonin Bola and safely Vial it in after you untap. Post-board, O-Rings are your best defense, but you don’t want to mulligan just because you didn’t draw O-Ring, since you should have other outs. As said before, Leonin Bola is a good out against Sneak-Show. Ethersworn Canonist makes your hands keepable if you know you are facing Omni-Tell or even Hive Mind.

There’s not much the S&T player can bring with them post-board, other than bounce or Pyroclasm. Don’t play into Pyroclasm by overextending your offense.

+3 O-Ring

Storm Combo
Again, another likely game 1 loss, but if you MD Ethersworn Canonist, you do have a shot sometimes. Mindbreak Trap is nice in that it makes your Storm opponent think twice before trying to goldfish on their first turn 1, but they can also choose to play more slowly and try to clear your hand of MBTs with discard. Bringing in Canonist alongside MBT is a very good complementary pairing as both cards require different sets of answers. Grafdigger’s Cage is another good option if you are playing against ANT since it also shuts off any kill via Past in Flames. Again, your post-board chances increase if you know what kind of Storm deck you’re facing.

+4 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Mindbreak Trap

Miracles
Play conservatively. Every creature you decide to cast, think carefully about why you’re casting it. If you don’t, then you’re just throwing away creatures to your opponent’s Terminus that you could have saved. Say you have two Ornithopters in your hand, and you’re able to cast Thoughtcast for :u: after just playing one Thopter. Do you need to cast the second Thopter? Just hold it back, because if your opponent resolves Terminus and you have Plating down, you can turn that extra Thopter into a powerful threat by itself. Play your most important threats last. Tezzeret is your best card against Miracles. The moment you resolve a Tezzeret, the game is YOURS. To make that happen, you have to bait Miracle to expend all their removal and countermagic to clear the way for Tezzeret.

+4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Burn
This matchup isn’t as bad as people make it out to be. Just play tight, and don’t recklessly play lands you don’t need unless you want to be finished off by Price of Progress. SFM + Batterskull help a great deal, though. Oblivion Ring can be brought in to answer Sulfuric Vortex or simply stop Grim Lavamancer.

High Tide
Same as Storm, except only better since it’s apparently harder for High Tide to deal with both Mindbreak Trap and Ethersworn Canonist, backed up an aggro deck that can easily win on turns 4-5.

+4 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Mindbreak Trap

Elves!
Game 1 can go either way, since they can combo out with Glimpse or you can simply overpower them if they choose to go aggro. Ethersworn Canonist effective roadblocks both their combo and aggro routes post-board. SFM + Jitte is also handy. Be wary of Natural Order. Grafdigger’s Cage is a good solution to NO and it conveniently stops Green Sun’s Zenith as well. Phyrexian Revoker is also a good sideboard card if you run it.

+4 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Grafdigger’s Cage

Jund
Oh boy, is this a miserable matchup, more so if they run Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows. It’s usually a dogfight to see which deck is left standing, except Jund is usually left standing, but you can put up a good fight with SFM and Academy Ruins. Tezzeret is optionable to bring in post-board, but you just have to remember to animate Darksteel Citadel into an indestructible 5/5 the moment you resolve Tezzeret. Jund players can’t beat a 5/5 indestructible without Liliana. You might think this is crazy, but board out your Equipment above all else if you are sideboarding. This includes Cranial Plating. The Jund matchup is a test of the individual merit of your cards. Jund has plenty of creature removal, they will make your Plating useless by wiping out your offense. Keep one Plating in, though.

Belcher/Rogue Hermit
Mindbreak Trap and Canonist. Hope for the best.

Goblins
Etched Champion is king here. Like Burn, don’t underestimate the Goblins player because they will win out of nowhere if you do. If they have Lackey, always hold back at least two creatures, in case they try to surprise you with an EOT Gempalm Incinerator or Vialed-in Stingscourger. I just bring in only O-Rings post-board. Masters aren’t very useful as they will always get chumped and it does nothing against Piledriver, so they can be boarded out.

Maverick
Not really a good matchup, but luckily the deck’s popularity isn’t what it used to be. Etched Champion is amazing, but it can only buy you so much time. Maverick has easy access to Scryb Ranger with GSZ, and Scryb Ranger is a massive annoyance, which usually spells game over if it’s equipped with a Jitte. Post-board, the worst cards they can bring against you are Krosan Grip or they can run a E-tutor package including the god-awful card Serenity.

Delver
They will usually have Daze, so you have to play around it, because resolving a Stoneforge Mystic or Master of Etherium is going to be very problematic for the Delver deck since they run few removal spells. Canonist is very annoying against Delver decks since that deck relies on sequencing cantrips with threats and removal or countermagic.

+4 Canonist

Dredge
You lose G1, bring in Cages for G2 and G3. Not much to talk about here.

+4 Grafdigger’s Cage

Reanimator
Your worst fear is your Reanimator opponent casting EOT Entomb and Exhuming Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on turn 2. Prevent this from happening with Grafdigger’s Cage, and if they try to go the Show and Tell route, stop them with Oblivion Ring. Don’t walk into Daze, so always keep one mana open when casting Cage.

Smea.gol.lum

04-29-2013, 05:11 PM

Looks promising ;) Keep up the good work!

EradiKate

04-29-2013, 05:35 PM

ehotonic

04-29-2013, 09:48 PM

Shawon

04-30-2013, 07:42 AM

1. How often do you have dead draws with the Mox? I'm always worried about running 4 legendary anything... I'm gonna run 2 and I think a pair of Glimmervoid. I'm skeptical of the Glimmervoids since this build doesn't necessarily always dump a bunch of artifacts on the table first turn, but we'll see.

It happens sometimes, but I just don't worry about it. Mox Opal is good you always you want it in your opening hand. Three Opals in your hand are better than none. Besides, you can still make use of your extra Opals if you just Legend-out your existing Opal and then play a new Opal and tap it. Granted, it's much sweeter to utilize extra Opals with Arcbound Ravager, but I think you're fine with running 4 Opal.

Don't run Glimmervoid, it's terrible. If you need extra colored mana besides 4 Opal/Drum, run Paradise Mantle.

2. Have you messed with Spell Pierce in your SB at all?

I actually MD'd Spell Pierces for a while. I cut them because Abrupt Decay came out. Running Spell Pierces could be revisited, but at the moment I don't think I need them.

ehotonic

04-30-2013, 12:49 PM

Yeah, didn't think about chaining out the mox-es if I draw into them or have a couple in hand. I only own two at the moment, so that's how I'm going into it, hah :tongue: Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes this weekend -- it will be a very broad meta, too, so it should be instructive.

Geeksire

05-07-2013, 07:57 PM

Hello everyone. I have been in The Source for a while and have been fascinated with Affinity quite a lot! It is awesome! I spend quite a lot of time looking at the Goblin thread and GoboLord is quite awesome in providing feedback to us all. Now, it is time to make another deck and that is Affinity! The reason I am here is because I have seen Affinity change a lot and I was wondering, would you all critique my deck to see what is right or wrong?

Here is my list : D

Creatures [25]
4x Vault Skirges'
4x Memnites'
4x Ornithopters'
4x Signal Pests'
3x Etched Champions'
3x Master of Etheriums'
3x Stoneforge Mystics'

Artifacts [10]
4x Cranial Platings'
3x Mox Opals'
2x Springleaf Drums'
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Spells [10]
4x Galvanic Blasts'
4x Thoughtcasts'
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Land [15]
4x Ancient Dens'
3x Ancient Tombs'
3x Glimmervoids'
3x Seat of Synods'
2x Great Furnaces'

-----------------------------------
Sideboard [15]
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
3x Spell Pierce
2x Disenchants'

Hope this is good! I have been playtesting it in Cockatrice and found that it has worked very well, but I was wondering why nobody is running Arcbound Ravager and Disciple of the Vault anymore. Is it being countered too much? Thanks! On a side note, has anybody tried Infiltration Lens in Affinity? I have always wanted to try it since it can let our guys draw cards for what we need.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205480

From a fellow Goblin fan who wants to also make an Affinity deck!

Shawon

05-07-2013, 09:40 PM

<List>

Hope this is good! I have been playtesting it in Cockatrice and found that it has worked very well, but I was wondering why nobody is running Arcbound Ravager and Disciple of the Vault anymore. Is it being countered too much? Thanks! On a side note, has anybody tried Infiltration Lens in Affinity? I have always wanted to try it since it can let our guys draw cards for what we need.

Times have changed, and no one is scared about Ravager + Disciple. Ravager is still good enough in Affinity, but Disciple is lackluster without Ravager.

Re: List

Cut Galvanic Blast. It's a sweet card, and it is by no means 'bad' in Affinity, but the more you play with Blast the more you will realize how little you need it in the matchups you are trying to improve (e.g. combo). Galvanic Blast is a really really good burn spell, but Affinity doesn't need Burn, (not in this metagame anyway).

Don't ever shave artifact lands, least of all Seat of the Synod. I can assume you are trying to make your manabase more resistant to extreme hate such as Energy Flux or Null Rod, but no deck you will consistently face (DTBs et al) are ever going to pack either of those two hate cards. Furthermore, you're just making the deck less consistent in general. Cut the Glimmervoids + Great Furnaces and add more artifact lands (4th Seat and 4 Vault of Whispers).

Signal Pest is such a cheap and aggressive card. I love the card, but it has horrible defense and it highlight's some of the deck's weaknesses you should try to avoid (weak toughness -> Punishing Fire/Umezawa's Jitte/Forked Bolt/Lots of other stuff). Signal Pest is also much better if you run 12 free guys (including Frogmite).

You need a total of 4 Tezzeret between all the cards in your MD and SB. They're much better than Disenchant against control, so take out Disenchants.

Rest in Peace is too slow, and requires white mana. Grafdigger's Cage is half the cost and an artifact, and thus much more likely to resolve or even cast against Reanimator before becoming irrelevant.

Infiltration Lens is way too conditional. BTW, you can wrap a tag (type [cards] in front of a card name and close it off with the same tag except with a backslash in front of 'Cards') that lets posters see a card's image above the card.

Geeksire

05-07-2013, 11:21 PM

Times have changed, and no one is scared about Ravager + Disciple. Ravager is still good enough in Affinity, but Disciple is lackluster without Ravager.

Re: List

Cut Galvanic Blast. It's a sweet card, and it is by no means 'bad' in Affinity, but the more you play with Blast the more you will realize how little you need it in the matchups you are trying to improve (e.g. combo). Galvanic Blast is a really really good burn spell, but Affinity doesn't need Burn, (not in this metagame anyway).

Don't ever shave artifact lands, least of all Seat of the Synod. I can assume you are trying to make your manabase more resistant to extreme hate such as Energy Flux or Null Rod, but no deck you will consistently face (DTBs et al) are ever going to pack either of those two hate cards. Furthermore, you're just making the deck less consistent in general. Cut the Glimmervoids + Great Furnaces and add more artifact lands (4th Seat and 4 Vault of Whispers).

Signal Pest is such a cheap and aggressive card. I love the card, but it has horrible defense and it highlight's some of the deck's weaknesses you should try to avoid (weak toughness -> Punishing Fire/Umezawa's Jitte/Forked Bolt/Lots of other stuff). Signal Pest is also much better if you run 12 free guys (including Frogmite).

You need a total of 4 Tezzeret between all the cards in your MD and SB. They're much better than Disenchant against control, so take out Disenchants.

Rest in Peace is too slow, and requires white mana. Grafdigger's Cage is half the cost and an artifact, and thus much more likely to resolve or even cast against Reanimator before becoming irrelevant.

Infiltration Lens is way too conditional. BTW, you can wrap a tag (type [cards] in front of a card name and close it off with the same tag except with a backslash in front of 'Cards') that lets posters see a card's image above the card.

Thanks Shawon for the reply. Nice hearing a prompt reply from people who love this deck. As for the things that you have said have opened my eyes. As for using Rest in Peace, I use it because of Tarmogoyf decks because they will just get big by turn 2 which is really annoying to deal with, but I do see your point with also dealing with Reanimator fast. I have now put 2 Grafdigger Cages' and 1 Rest in Peace if I have to deal with Tarmogoyf.

As for lands, I see your point. I have always found Springleaf Drum kind of slow when I use in-game, so I usually use 2 and for Mox Opal, I will start using 4 instead of 3.

So what is going to be changed will be these areas which will make my deck, in my mind, better:
4x Mox Opals'
4x Arcbound Ravagers'
1x Seat of Synod
4x Vaults of Whispers
-4x Signal Pests'
-3x Glimmervoids'
-2x Great Furnaces'

As for Tezzeret, I don't understand replacing Disenchants' for him. Can you explain? I usually never have more than two Tezzeret since I believe it usually slows you down once played. Your opponent will focus all his power in killing him no matter what it takes!

Also, what about Dispatch? Should it replace Galvanic Blast?

Darkenslight

05-08-2013, 02:49 AM

As for Tezzeret, I don't understand replacing Disenchants' for him. Can you explain? I usually never have more than two Tezzeret since I believe it usually slows you down once played. Your opponent will focus all his power in killing him no matter what it takes!

Also, what about Dispatch? Should it replace Galvanic Blast?

Tezzeret is most likely a 2-turn clock (either by finding another artifact and Ultimating, or by turning your chaff into 5/5s.) 5/5 is still on the bigger side of the equation, creature-wise.

Geeksire

05-08-2013, 02:55 AM

True. I completely forgot about his -1 ability lol : D I may then add two more or maybe try to squeeze one in my MD. Thanks for all the comments!

Shawon

05-08-2013, 07:42 AM

As for using Rest in Peace, I use it because of Tarmogoyf decks because they will just get big by turn 2 which is really annoying to deal with, but I do see your point with also dealing with Reanimator fast. I have now put 2 Grafdigger Cages' and 1 Rest in Peace if I have to deal with Tarmogoyf.

As for Tezzeret, I don't understand replacing Disenchants' for him. Can you explain? I usually never have more than two Tezzeret since I believe it usually slows you down once played. Your opponent will focus all his power in killing him no matter what it takes!

Also, what about Dispatch? Should it replace Galvanic Blast?

If you're still concerned about Tarmogoyf, Relic of Progenitus is a better solution than Rest in Peace. It's faster, and it has incidental value if your opponent tries to remove it.

Have you tried Leonin Bola? I mainly use it because I can find it with SFM and it stops Emrakul, but it's also a great way for you to buy time against Delvers or Tarmogoyfs.

Like Darkenslight said, Tezzeret is a two-turn clock against control. But I was mainly referring to Miracles (w/ or w/o Helm Combo). Disenchant gets rid of problem cards such as Energy Field, but Tezzeret helps you ignore them altogether by winning on your terms. Why not use a proactive solution to such cards rather than a conditional removal?

You don't need Dispatch or Galvanic Blast for the express purpose of creature removal. The point of playing Affinity over other combat-oriented decks is that you're supposed to ignore whatever your opponent has. If you do have to interact with your opponent, you need to be running cards that have more value than just removing one target. Case in point, Relic of Progenitus. Using Relic's tap-itself ability early one takes care of all of your opponent's Tarmogoyfs for the rest of the game. Why settle for a Dispatch when your opponent can just play another Goyf? Furthermore, running instants, like anything else non-artifact, dilutes the deck.

Geeksire

05-10-2013, 02:27 PM

Shawon

05-10-2013, 07:49 PM

Hello again! I have been a little more in the deck and I have been wondering, what circumstances would be best to use Arcbound Ravager. I have tested him out in-game and he seems a flop, or it might just be me doing bad with this card. Can anybody tell me how Arcbound Ravager is a game-changer or good in anyway? Thanks!

As a 4-of, Ravager is much better in Affinity if you are running more free guys like Frogmite, because while Ravager's Modular trigger is pretty useful in the face of removal, but what good is it if you don't have a target for it when Ravager dies or worse, if you're opponent has another removal in response to Modular? Having at least 12 free guys makes it easy for you to secure at least one or two targets for Modular should you cast Ravager and your opponent tries to get rid of it fast (which he/she will).

I don't like Ravager in my build because for two mana, I would always want to cast Stoneforge Mystic over Ravager. Furthermore, SFM (nor Batterskull, sadly) are not 'robots,' so you can't target them with Modular or sacrifice SFM to Ravager, and it's redundant to target Master with Modular.

It's also possible you could be misplaying him. Do you always hold back from sacrificing artifacts to Ravager until your opponent is within legal range? Sometimes you have to 'foresee' how many turns you minimally need to kill your opponent because your opponent might stabilize or combo off. It's not difficult, it just takes some basic math to figure out. For example, I was facing ANT and I sacrificed all but a Darksteel Citadel to pump up my Vault Skirge to a 6/6. I thought about keeping the Citadel in case I needed to rebuild my manabase, but I should have gone all the way and made my Skirge into a 7/7. I didn't get close to killing my ANT opponent within 3 turns, but he did combo to Tendrils me for the exact amount of my life, despite having gained life from multiple Skirge hits. I could have survived if I had sacrificed everything to Ravager and made my Skirge as big as possible.

I think Ravager is better if your Affinity build is more swarm-based. I've had past success with Ravager as a 1-of, since it can act as a 5th Plating or Master. Ravager is a great ace-in-the-hole card because it can take opponents by complete surprise sometimes, but ultimately it's only as useful as much as you know how to use him.

Shawon

05-12-2013, 11:45 PM

Newest list:

Mana
12 Artifact Lands
4 Opal
4 Drum
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Ruins

Critters
8 free guys
4 Masters
4 SFM
4 Skirge

Tech
1 Jitte
1 Mantle
1 Batterskull
1 Leonin Bola

Power Cards
4 TC
4 Plating
3 Tezz

SB
1 Tezz
4 Canonist
3 O-Ring
4 MBT
3 Champ

Notes:

I moved the Champs to the SB for MD Tezzs to pack a trump card against control in g1.

The Inkmoth Nexuses increase the threat density of the deck while doubling as mana. I will miss being able to make Darksteel Citadel into an indestructible 5/5, though.

Update on Primer: Wrote more stuff on the primer. I'm trying to make it appeal to beginners or new players to Affinity, hence going over obvious card choices.

Card Choices

Seat of the Synod – You can’t have an Affinity deck in Legacy without artifact lands. The artifact lands and free guys make up the core of Affinity. Artifact lands quickly enable Metalcraft and cheapen Affinity for Artifact spells. Plus, you want a land that taps for :u: so you can cast Thoughtcast.

Vault of Whispers – It might be tempting to cut or shave this land, however you need reliable access to black mana to enable Quick-Plating (i.e. using Cranial Plating’s :b::b: ability to swap it to another attack in cases where your opponent has removal or blockers) and to cast Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.

Ancient Den – Necessary to cast Stoneforge Mystic as well as sideboard cards.

Mox Opal– If you’re a beginner, let me briefly explain to you why this is used in Affinity. Affinity has such a high concentration of artifacts, therefore it’s really easy to amass the three-artifact requirement for Metalcraft to be able to tap Mox Opal for mana. Furthermore, since Mox Opal costs nothing to cast and we run about 20 or more artifacts that don’t cost mana to hit the board (artifact lands + free guys), it’s almost always likely to be able to cast Mox Opal and use it as early as turn 1 or by turn 2 at the latest. The speed that Mox Opal is invaluable to a deck that is capable of winning on turn 3 (with the combat phase no less).

Unfortunately, WotC decided to add a drawback to Mox Opal to prevent players from casting multiple Mox Opals to set up Metalcraft for each other and have way too easy access to fast mana. They made Mox Opal “Legendary.” (not finished)

Springleaf Drum – A lot of Affinity players hate this card, and I used to hate it too (after loving it), but it’s quite necessary in the deck if you’re going to be playing with Fr3’s. A novice mistake of playing Springleaf Drum is casting it AFTER casting a free guy. This is a mistake because it gives your opponent a chance to respond to your Drum, such as removing the one creature you have that you were about to tap with Drum after it resolves, which means you won’t get to use the mana Drum would’ve provided. Always play the Drum first, then the free guy, keep priority and then tap Drum for mana.

Paradise Mantle – This can act as an extra Springleaf Drum, except it can be searched with Stoneforge Mystic.

Leonin Bola – It’s a maindeck solution to Show & Tell decks (taps down Emrakul, the Aeons Torn) that actually synergizes with the rest of the deck and isn’t a total blank versus other decks. Leonin Bola can tap down a 3/2 flying Insect Aberration or a 4/5 Goyf. Of course, the other reason I am using Leonin Bola is because it can be searched by Stoneforge Mystic and put into play with SFM’s ability without being countered.

alderon666

05-16-2013, 04:38 PM

How about Blood Scrivner? Affinity dumps it's hand pretty fast, and you can't really play Dark Confidant.
If you wanna get cute, you can even play something like Chromatic Orb for extra draw effects. And you could actually get an Ancestrall Recal with Thoughtcast... LOL

Shawon

05-16-2013, 05:53 PM

Both Scrivener and Confidant are too cute and slow for Affinity. The slow card advantage that either card provides is better accepted in decks that plan to stay in the game longer than Affinity would. Affinity is more focused on creating immediate board pressure than dumping its hand. Scrivener capitalizes on the latter gameplan, but it doesn't capitalize or even facilitate the former plan since it's just a 2/1 body.

Geeksire

05-19-2013, 01:06 AM

Hello everyone!!!! It has been a while and I have completed my deck! Now I would like to share with you the awesomeness of this deck because I truly am loving Tez Affinity deck! I have been noticing not a lot of builds containing Arcbound Ravager since he is used more with Vault guy, but that should change! More than likely, Etched Champion is used more since we like to take it slow and do damage over and over, but don't we want to end the game in as soon as possible? I have actually tested the deck out with friends who have Legacy Soldier decks and Elf decks, and wow does this deck shine when Cranial Plating, Tez, or Arcbound come in to play. I find Etched Champion to be a blocker for a GIANT creature, to be resilient to spells, or to be a slow-unblockable hitter, but we surely do not need that (sorry my opinion : /.) The downside is when you are not able to get any creatures on the field or anything else for Arcbound, but it is magical when it can be able to sacrifice EVERYTHING to become powerful for itself or another creature! I see the purpose of having Etched when Batterskull comes in to play or Jitte, so I only keep one in my MD (with no possibility of ever drawing it.) Nonetheless, I truly love this deck for what it has become and thank you guys for giving me advice on the deck: Shawon, thanks a ton, and the others who I have forgotten : D

Creatures [26]
3x Vault Skirges'
4x Memnites'
4x Ornithopters'
1x Etched Champions'
4x Master of Etheriums'
3x Stoneforge Mystics'
3x Arcbound Ravagers'
4x Frogmites'

Artifacts [12]
4x Cranial Platings'
4x Mox Opals'
3x Springleaf Drums'
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Spells [7]
4x Thoughtcasts'
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Land [15]
4x Ancient Dens'
3x Ancient Tombs'
4x Vault of Whispers'
4x Seat of Synods'

-----------------------------------
Sideboard [15]
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Spell Pierce
2x Gravdiggers
1x Rest in Peace
1x Etched Champion
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Have a good one guys!

Shawon

05-19-2013, 10:43 AM

Your list looks a lot better, Geeksire. Just don't stop at 'amazing.' Always strive to make your list better than it was before. You'll be surprised as to how your list and your skill with the deck improve with organized experimentation and discipline. I've witnessed an all too common habit with people who post in this thread, where they have this initial excitement with their list and they suddenly disappear from the thread because they came across matchups that gave them hell or their games didn't go the way they imagined in their minds.

I agree with what you're saying about Etched Champion. I was thinking of writing a post saying how he's not what he once was in the deck. Champ is simply a Grey Ogre against any combo deck and with Abrupt Decay in the format, relying on equipping a Cranial Plating to Champ and expecting it to win the game is no longer a failsafe option. Also, he really is just slow. The main reason people have been holding onto Champs in Affinity is because he can act as an untargetable blocker, especially against Tarmogoyfs, but think about it: why should you be concerned about blocking Goyfs? Affinity is always the aggro deck against any deck with Tarmogoyfs in it. You are in a bad position if the only thing keeping you in the game is blocking Goyfs with a 2/2 Champ. You should just ignore those Goyfs altogether with a Plated Inkmoth Nexus!

I will concede that Etched Champion is very useful in the Stoneblade matchup. Against Affinity, the Blade player is always going to retrieve Jitte if they land a Stoneforge Mystic, and Etched Champion is one of your best defenses. However, I think that running your own Jitte is just as fine an answer to an opposing Jitte, or running Cabal Therapy to double up as additional contro/combo hate.

Speaking of Inkmoth Nexus, have you tried it, Geeksire? You can also sacrifice Ravager to it, and you get to keep the counters on Inkmoth even after it goes back into being a land, which is pretty sweet if you ask me. In theory, it seems that going all-in with Ravager + Inkmoth can be a reasonable strategy against combo and against BUG, because if you go all-in to make a 10+ Inkmoth Nexus, the BUG opponent can't Abrupt Decay it since it's still a land!

I'm running Inkmoth Nexus now, and I love it in my Esper list, where I have access to 8 virtual copies of Cranial Plating to retain the threat of hitting with a 10/1 Nexus. I would love to experiment with Ravager and Inkmoth Nexus, but I can't run Ravager in my Esper list (conflicts with SFM), so I might test out a separate straight-up UB list with both of those guys in it.

Geeksire

05-22-2013, 07:34 PM

I see the point of having Inkmoth Nexus to be a finisher when Cranial Plating is put in to play but for me, I would like Ancient Tomb to get my guys out faster. I have also been thinking about putting 4x Signal Pest instead of 4x Frogmite for an unblockable creature because my opponents are more than likely going to have creatures out that can block me. In contrast to other decks I have tried this deck has been awesome, but I still have questions regarding Arcbound Ravager: can anybody give me tips on how to use him properly in combat, on the field, or against spot-removal. I only know some tips from it, but it would be awesome if I can get other tips from others who have used him more than I. Thanks!!!

Shawon

05-23-2013, 07:15 PM

What the new rules spell out for this deck:

- Running less than 4 Opals in Affinity has always been suspect, but post-ruling if you're playing Affinity, you would be an idiot to play less than 4. Prior to the ruling, you could tap your Opal in play, then cast two Opals in succession, and be able to net mana with the 3rd Opal after the first two go to the graveyard due to the legend rule. Now, because you can choose which Opal to send to the graveyard, you can play a 2nd Opal, sacrifice the first one (after tapping it ofc), and net one mana with just two Opals. A 3rd Opal will net you additional mana. Ultimately, this means Affinity's turn 1s just got better and hands with multiple Opals are less likely to be mulligans.

- The main reason for running Jitte at all in Affinity is to get rid of opposing Jittes. However, now that is impossible due to the new ruling. New, reliable solutions to Jitte have to be brainstormed. I am toying with Tower of the Magistrate and Manriki-Gusari at the moment.

- I was never fond of using Phyrexian Metamorph as 'tech' against huge legend fatties like Prog or Emrakul, but I thought it was worth mentioning that Metamorph doesn't cancel out any opposing Legend anymore.

Justin

05-23-2013, 09:41 PM

Yeah, four mox opal is mandatory now for sure. Under the old legends rules, you would almost always mulligan a hand with three moxen. Now, you can keep and plop down a turn one Tez.

Shawon

05-26-2013, 12:19 AM

I forgot to mention that another caveat from the recent rule changes is that you can effectively discard a Tezzeret with 1 counter by playing a 2nd Tezz and immediately ramping it to 4 counters. That's really dope. So no more whining about multiple Tezzs/Opals from you guys!

Esper Affinity

Mana
12 Art Lands
4 Inkmoth
4 Opal
3 Drum
1 Mantle
1 Ruins

Critters
8 Free guys
4 Skirge
4 SFM
4 MoE
2 Spellskite!

Big Business
4 TC
4 Tezz
1 BSkull

SB
4 Chalice
4 Canonist
3 O-Ring
3 Champs
1 Tower of the Magistrate

I've totally removed Jitte from my Esper list now that it can't kill my opponent's. It's way too slow to begin with. I have 1 Tower of the Magistrate in the SB. I haven't used its ability in practice yet, but on paper, it seems to be an effective halt to Jitte as well as Batterskull. I like that Tower also lets you kill Baleful Strix without losing a creature.

Leonin Bola is no longer in. With the buzz surrounding more OmniTell decks popping up, having a silver bullet just for Emrakul seems no longer defensible.

I'm actually debating what lands I can use in my one slot for utility lands. I have 1 MD Academy Ruins, but I'm thinking of trying out Tower MD or even Kor Haven! Kor Haven stops any Jitte equipped attacker, and furthermore, I can kill a Goyf with a Plated Memnite and save Memnite! I'm still a big fan of Ruins though, so any change to that utility land slot will be hard.

Inkmoth Nexus has proven to be stellar! It's very good at stealing the game from other aggro decks if their life total is too high to deplete before they kill you. Case in point, Bant and Maverick.

The slots that are currently taken by Spellskite have been seated previously by many other cards I tested, like Cursed Scroll or even MD Champs. Cursed Scroll felt like a hit-or-miss to be MD. The speed was less of the issue than whether it mattered or not against certain matchups. It's effectively dead against any combo deck, and some decks with creatures in it can either get decimated by Scroll or they can just ignore it.

I've finally come around to trying Chalice. I love the insurance of being safe with Mindbreak Trap in hand from turn 1 kills while on the draw, but MBT does nothing against Elves, and I need the flexibility of handling fast combo and Elves with 8 cards including Canonist.

Shawon

05-28-2013, 02:36 PM

Ever since I started drafting my forthcoming Affinity primer, I knew that I was going to write a how-to-play guide for both the Esper variant and the classic Scars block-influenced swarm build. However, I gave up modifying the swarm build as I was disappointed with my swarm build and I really wanted to explore the potential of Esper Affinity. But now that I have enough expertise to write about the Esper Affinity, I am going back to modifying the swarm build so that when I finish my primer, readers can intake unbiased information and strategy about both variants and thus make up their own mind about which one to play.

So, here's the new swarm list, with explanations following:

Affinity for Artifact Aggro (like it?)

Mana
4 Seat
4 Whispers
4 Darksteel
3 Tomb
1 Ruins (I'm always going to include this as a 1-of in every Affinity list)
4 Drum
4 Opal

Critters
12 Free-guys (including Frogmite)
4 Signal Pest
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Myr Enforcer

Everything Else
4 TC
4 Tangle Wire
0 Cranial Plating (read: ZERO)

SB:
4 Tezz
4 Therapy
4 Chalice
3 Champ

Let me clear right here and say that Tangle Wire is NOT my idea at all. This idea and my thanks go to the people over at MTGSal who thought of using Tangle Wire as a means to prevent the opponent from being able to answer the aggressive board states swarm-based builds tend to create very early.

As for the reasons behind certain inclusions and certain exclusions (NO PLATING!!!), I can sum it all up in a nutshell by saying that I am focusing the entire plan of the swarm-based build on swarm-aggro. There are no Champs MD because it is too slow. It's needed in the SB against other beatdown decks that can stabilize against you. There are no Masters anymore because I want to spend turn 2-3 casting Tangle Wire, but I do need a big beatstick, so Myr Enforcer is another alternative that's big but also doesn't conflict with Tangle Wire.

Cranial Plating equipped on an attacker is a legit way of winning, but it conflicts with the swarm plan and furthermore... Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay being printed is the main reason why I left behind the swarm-based build and even considered running Stoneforge Mystic, a card that I once thought was ridiculously awful. Spending 3 mana to Cranial-equip an attacker and lose your Plating to an Abrupt Decay is more of a huge tempo sink than simply losing a Plating, and I don't want to spend a turn that I would have otherwise used to securing or intensifying my swarm plan over a plan B option that can risk slowing me down from killing my opponent before they stabilize. I actually replaced the Cranial Platings with Steel Overseer. Steel Overseer is slower at first, but it's beneficial to the swarm plan and doesn't make it easy for the opponent to single out any one attacker with removal. Furthermore, it's a creature on its own, and by having a huge creature count, it makes Arcbound Ravager in the deck WAY more powerful because you're almost guaranteed to have a target for Modular when it dies.

The SB is just a placeholder, but on paper it looks fantastic. Cabal Therapy benefits from having many cheap creatures. Tezzeret is a good end-game plan against Miracles, and like I said before, Champs are defense against aggro.

What are your thoughts? I'm curious, what builds to most people prefer, swarm or Esper (Mystic) builds? I still prefer my Esper build, because Stoneforge Mystic is so skill-intensive when you have an extensive package of Equipments it can find. However, I still enjoy goldfishing fast aggro hands. But I'm going to spend some more time testing the swarm-based builds and test out some post-board games so I can add more to my written draft of the primer.

Lejay

06-17-2013, 07:50 AM

Did you consider winter orb as a 5th/6th stalling effect ?

Shawon

06-17-2013, 08:11 AM

No, I haven't, but my initial impression is that it's very easy to get out of, since your opponent has at least one land untapped and can play another. But then again, I never considered running it as a supplement to Tangle Wire, and I only just recently started running it. I'll try it out, good question!

Geeksire

06-21-2013, 08:40 PM

Hello everyone! It's been a while how has everyone been?!?!? I have play-testing my deck for quite a while now, but now I have come to a difference between the importance of Arcbound Ravager and Etched Champion. Been looking over the pros and cons of both of them since I want to replace 4x of either or, and I have came to the decision of replacing the Ravagers' with Etched Champions'. Etched seems to be the perfect condition for spot removal since Ravager is suppose to counteract this problem but for some reason, I want Ravager to be able to do something but it is too difficult to achieve in Legacy. Unless a deck can be able to give +1/+1 counters to Ravager then I believe it can achieve something great but as for now in Affinity, we need to be able to focus on getting damage and having creatures be able to be resilient to spells.

The pros I have seen in Arcbound Ravager (in my deck) is the possibility of getting Tezzeret to buff it up to a 5/5, or Etherium to give it +1/+1. As for Etched Champion, we can get these buffs as well as equip Cranial Plating to get the job done, but it can slower to do sufficient damage in time.

I have also been thinking of replacing my Stoneforge Mystics' for Frogmites' since I replaced my Frogmites' with Signal Pests'. I see Signal Pests' really do have great potential in the beginning as well as mid-game when used with Etched Champion. Please tell me your opinions!!!!

Shawon

06-21-2013, 08:50 PM

I've actually started to 100% fully embrace Arcbound Ravager now. The more I play with Ravager, the better I become at using it, and thus the better it becomes in Affinity. I have a good sense when to go 'all-in' with it or just moderately pump it to force my opponent to do something about it. Ravager can steal games on its own, but my is it fun to steal games with Ravager + Inkmoth.

I would say that Ravager is the strongest creature you can run in Affinity, with Stoneforge Mystic becoming a close second. However, Ravager becomes pretty lackluster if you do not have enough experience with it, and thus you would better off with Etched Champion or Master of Etherium. This is coming from someone who once completely wrote off Ravager (as well as Mystic) haha. I've learned not to underestimate either of those cards ever again.

If you are going to run Etched Champion, you really want to be able to consistently find Cranial Plating with Mystic to make Etched Champion very threatening.

EDIT:
The pros I have seen in Arcbound Ravager (in my deck) is the possibility of getting Tezzeret to buff it up to a 5/5,

Ravager after being targeted by Tezz becomes a 5/5 with +1 counter, thus making it 6/6 :)

EDIT#2: I am still working on a forthcoming Affinity primer, and I should resume working on it after this final essay for my online history class is submitted (which I really really don't want to do, I already got two A's on my last papers!). I am thinking of writing a mini-article, either separate from the primer or contained within, dedicated solely to using Arcbound Ravager. My goal of the Affinity primer to attract new Legacy players to not only play Affinity, but make a commitment to learn and eventually master Affinity. I think one of the skill barriers that prevent Affinity players from succeeding with Affinity is their limitations on how to use Ravager, and I want to write a mini-primer on Arcbound Ravager to tear that barrier down.

Geeksire

06-21-2013, 09:43 PM

Shawon

06-21-2013, 09:47 PM

I do not use Inkmoth Nexus but I have been thinking of replacing my Ancient Tombs with them. Nevertheless, could you give insight on Ravagers? I understand when I attack, I can sacrifice it to buff up one of my creatures but more than likely my Ravagers' will only be +2/+2s. Still debating on removing either or. Will actually look forward to your article on the Arcbound Ravager's!

I'll try, but not right now since I have to get started on my paper which is due Sunday at noon. After that, I'm completely free, and I'll think of some examples to improve your insight.

Geeksire

06-21-2013, 10:44 PM

Well all-right! I was looking in to some Arcbound builds and I found out this nifty equipment that might be useful when equipped to Arcbound Ravager.

It's called "Blade of the Bloodchief". Tell me if this could be useful in an Arcbound deck : D

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193397

Shawon

06-21-2013, 10:55 PM

It fits into the same category of cards such as Disciple of the Vault that are only decent with Ravager in play but otherwise mediocre.

EDIT: Got an extension on my paper, busy tonight and the beginning of this week. Will think of some comprehensive Ravager examples and post them later in the week.

Geeksire

06-24-2013, 07:18 PM

Thanks for your commitment to this article on the Arcbound Ravager Shawon. I come here often and see that you are 'bound' to Affinity decks, which brings a smile to me since I started to appreciate the effectiveness this deck can achieve. As an English teacher for high school students, I am glad you are taking classes. Always brings a smile to see others still learning even though I had a hard time at the beginning.

As for my deck, I revamped it, replaced some essential and unessential creatures out and it has proven to be awesomemer!

Creatures [26]

4x Memnites'
4x Ornithopters'
4x Master of Etheriums'
4x Signal Pests'
3x Arcbound Ravagers'
3x Vault Skirges'
2x Etched Champions'
2x Stoneforge Mystics'

Artifacts [11]
4x Cranial Platings'
4x Mox Opals'
3x Springleaf Drums'

Spells [7]
4x Thoughtcasts'
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Land [15]
4x Ancient Dens'
4x Vault of Whispers'
4x Seat of Synods'
3x Ancient Tombs'

-----------------------------------
Sideboard [15]
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Spell Pierce
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gravdiggers
1x Rest in Peace
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Have a good one guys!

Shawon

06-24-2013, 08:27 PM

Geeksire, I'm actually taking the history course as a prereq to becoming a high school math teacher. Good to interact with a fellow person interested in education. Sadly, I just came back from the airport after my flight to Tampa was canceled, where I was going to attend a job fair for Florida teaching positions. Stupid Baltimore weather screwing up my connecting flight :mad:

Your Affinity lists are getting better, keep it up. Chalices and Canonists seem to be the norm of SBs now. I run them myself as well. Right now, I've settled on a Stoneforge list with 3 MD slots I am trying to decide between Cursed Scroll and Etched Champion. I'm heavily favored towards Cursed Scroll at this point, but Champion is pretty handy against Maverick, since you can rely on a plan of chump-blocking with Champs while you tick up Tezz counters and not just overrun Maze of Ith.

Geeksire

06-25-2013, 03:08 AM

That's awesome Shawon. As a Texas English teacher, it took me a while to get a job, but was able to receive an interview and was hired in a week. (Took me about three months until I could find a job. In Texas, there are a lot of openings in the big cities: Houston, Austin, and San Antonio. Not sure about up North, so I wish you luck!)

But moving on to more "important" matters regarding Affinity, I see that Etched Champion can be useful, but I believe 2 is the max you should have. Etherium Master is somebody not to be reckoned with because psychologically, your opponent is looking at a 6/6-8/8 creature and their reaction is like, "Damn! I must block it!!!!!" So he/she might chump block it and slowly their creatures will diminish leaving us to not worry about the field. Additionally if they are that scared, they will even refrain from attacking leaving us not to worry about their creatures--only spot-removal...

As for Inkmoth Nexus, I have been testing so many times at my work-desk and I cannot find the usefulness when it comes to using this card. It can be a little slow, but I see the wonders, psychologically, if a 5/5 infect creature is attacking where they are thinking, "Damn...a flying infect creature WITH INFECT!?!?! Must destroy it with spot-removal!!!!!" It is a beautiful scene to see, but my heart has to go to using Ancient Tomb! Nevertheless, drawing two to three Ancient Tombs, placing them on the field, and drawing no creatures at all is grueling scene to see. I will keep testing out Inkmoth some more.

Finally as for Stoneforge Mystic, I think the best number is 2 since we do not want to really rely on grabbing Cranial Plating. I have had some instances where I grab a Cranial Plating, I play it and it gets F@@#$@!! countered! I hate Blue decks, and I hate them with a red-damn-passion!!! (Love red btw; hence, I have a Goblin deck!! They want to end it quick!!! They do not give a flying @#$@!!!)

I have actually been thinking on removing Stoneforge Mystic and replacing them with 2-3 Tangle Wire. Been seen people talking about this card and even you as well Shawon, so I going to put this up for experimenting. (It's nifty because you can also tap Tangle Wire to make up for the 3 permanents we have to tap.)

Shawon

06-25-2013, 01:36 PM

Etherium Master is somebody not to be reckoned with because psychologically, your opponent is looking at a 6/6-8/8 creature and their reaction is like, "Damn! I must block it!!!!!" So he/she might chump block it and slowly their creatures will diminish leaving us to not worry about the field. Additionally if they are that scared, they will even refrain from attacking leaving us not to worry about their creatures--only spot-removal...

I don't think Master of Etherium is good anymore because against fair decks, you're getting way less return on an investment when your opponent has a removal spell. You may not be losing any net card advantage to a 1-for-1 exchange, but you are losing some significant tempo by running into a removal spell. With Ravager, you essentially have a guaranteed return on investment after it resolves, since Ravager's counters live onto another robot.

As for Inkmoth Nexus, I have been testing so many times at my work-desk and I cannot find the usefulness when it comes to using this card. It can be a little slow, but I see the wonders, psychologically, if a 5/5 infect creature is attacking where they are thinking, "Damn...a flying infect creature WITH INFECT!?!?! Must destroy it with spot-removal!!!!!" It is a beautiful scene to see, but my heart has to go to using Ancient Tomb! Nevertheless, drawing two to three Ancient Tombs, placing them on the field, and drawing no creatures at all is grueling scene to see. I will keep testing out Inkmoth some more.

If you're attacking with a 5-power Inkmoth, you're doing it wrong. That's too slow. If you attack with a powered-up Inkmoth, it has to be able to win that turn. It's pretty doable in my Mystic deck since I run 4 Ravager and 7 virtual copies of Plating (3 SFM + Plating).

What makes Inkmoth really clutch is that it's immune to the premier spot removal of the format as of now, Abrupt Decay. I won a game against BUG where the player main-phased Abrupt Decay's my Ravager, and in resp, I tapped my Drum with Ravager for 1 mana, sacrificed every artifact including Drum to Ravager, used that mana to animate my tapped Inkmoth Nexus, and gave it 9 counters upon Ravager's death. The next turn, I freely swung with a 10/10 Inkmoth the next turn and won. If I never pumped Inkmoth Nexus as high as I could, I would've had to wait another turn to kill my BUG opponent, and he could have drawn a Baleful Strix or Wasteland, or a Brainstorm to find those cards, and my chance of victory would've been squandered.

Finally as for Stoneforge Mystic, I think the best number is 2 since we do not want to really rely on grabbing Cranial Plating. I have had some instances where I grab a Cranial Plating, I play it and it gets F@@#$@!! countered! I hate Blue decks, and I hate them with a red-damn-passion!!!

I think 3-4 is the right number, because you want consistency to grab Cranial Plating or find more of them. Abrupt Decay and discard limits the life expectancy of a Cranial Plating on the board so it's wise to run a card that provides a backup Plating. And of course, it's sweet to blank a blue deck's Spell Pierce with SFM followed by a Vialed-in Plating the next turn. Also, I find that I search up Jitte a lot with SFM, and sometimes even Paradise Mantle for blue-mana fixing (or black for Tezzeret) or upping my artifact count for Affinity for Artifacts. SFM is very versatile. Batterskull is also a good card in Affinity if you run 4 SFM, but it is sometimes clunky.

I have actually been thinking on removing Stoneforge Mystic and replacing them with 2-3 Tangle Wire. Been seen people talking about this card and even you as well Shawon, so I going to put this up for experimenting. (It's nifty because you can also tap Tangle Wire to make up for the 3 permanents we have to tap.)

Tangle Wire is pretty dope :cool: It's nice that it can tap itself or Plating to reduce any loss of tempo you would have from tapping creatures/mana.

I run two different Affinity lists, both of which I think are insanely powerful: the Stoneforge list and an all-in list using Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire is pretty insane with Arcbound Ravager, because you can just tap out your opponent's board/lands and then sacrifice the Wire EOT to go for the throat after you untap. Even better if you have Arcbound Ravager, Tangle Wire, and Academy Ruins for infinite torture against the opponent mwuahahahaha.

Darthtaco75

06-26-2013, 11:12 AM

My deck atm went 5-3 at the nashville open. Updated for m14 rules change

Creatures:
4x Etched Champion
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Master of Etherium
3x Memnite
4x Ornithopter
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Vault Skirge

Spells:
2x Dispatch
3x Thoughtcast
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Artifacts:
1x Batterskull
3x Cranial Plating
4x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Land:
3x Ancient Den
4x Glimmervoid
3x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Seat of the Synod
3x Vault of Whispers

SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Perish
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Tormod's Crypt

I would like to make a few tweaks to make it stronger. It still felt very strong though. Especially against death/taxes combo and other decks game 2 and 3 if i lost first game. Chalice jitte and batterskull won me most of my games

Shawon

06-26-2013, 02:12 PM

Boy, your list needs a lot of work, not just some tweaks. First, you run too many 3-ofs. Shaving Thoughtcast and artifact lands dilute your entire deck and makes your deck less likely to have good Affinity hands. Glimmervoid is awful and poor justification to water-down your artifact synergies. If you run Glimmervoid to play against Null Rod or Energy Flux, you're still going to lose anyway so why bother running a bad card that dilutes your deck and is only situationally good against cards barely anyone plays?

Dispatch is unnecessary. It's not an artifact and you're running a card that assigns a defensive role to you... all for a 1-for-1 exchange with a creature. You have access to much better cards than Dispatch.

I don't get your 2-of Tormod's Crypt. If you want to beat gy-based strategies like Dredge or Reanimator, you're going to need more than a 2-of to make your matchup positive. Grafdigger's Cage seems better than Crypt anyway, since it also stops Natural Order.

I'm just trying to be straight to the point in giving you some advice on your list, so don't take my comments personal.

MGB

06-26-2013, 02:31 PM

Shawon

06-26-2013, 02:36 PM

I think that the 2-of Crypt is essential to fighting dredge and gives you a leg up in all graveyard-based match-ups, right?

Because a 2-of fixes your matchup, right?

Geeksire

06-27-2013, 05:31 PM

With the new M14 rules, you run Jitte? I don't know if you know this but if the opponent is to have a Jitte on the field, and if you put yours on the field, your Jitte and your opponents Jitte don't counter-off each other. (I really don't like the new M14 Legendary rules since I bought a Jitte myself for countering any decks that have it, but we have to deal with these rules for now.) So I would replace the Jitte with another Equipment hater like Manriki-Gusari. For Graveyard hate, I like Gravdigger's and Rest in Peace! They are both awesome if you would like to take that route, and I love the 4x CotV. Best card for countering a lot of decks!!!!!!

As for your deck, it looks awesome! A lot of 3 offs of what Shawon said need to be 4's, and the question of the dreaded Glimmervoid's!!!!! I personally use to proxy them in my deck way-back but through some major testing, I believe Inkmoth Nexus or Ancient Tomb can be very beneficial if you try them out! It matters on what you like to play! I run 3x Ancient Tombs' in my deck and this enables me to get my guys on the field fast!!!! With 4x Mox Opal's and 3x Springleaf Drum's you can manage perfectly with the mana. Also with the new M14 Legendary Rules, you can put as many Mox Opal's on the field as you want and gain all that mana. You will have to sacrifice once two are on the field, but they do not immediately counter each other. You can pick which one you want removed!!!! (So if you are smart, make sure to get rid of the Mox Opal that is tapped...)

On another note, I have also been thinking about adding Phyrexian Revoker in my deck to counter Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Mother of Runes, or any kind of cards that has abilities that are so damn annoying...This is just a thought but I might look in to them : D

Shawon

06-27-2013, 06:31 PM

At this point, I have settled on two Esperblade Affinity lists, with differences in the SB and only 3 cards MD.

My term 'Esperblade Affinity' denotes a UWB version of Affinity that features Stoneforge Mystic with an optional Equipment package outside of Cranial Plating.

After relentless testing, here's what I believe to be the CORE of Esperblade Affinity:

Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmite
4 Signal Pest
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
1 Paradise Mantle
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flex-slots

For the 3 MD slots, I am deciding between 3 Cursed Scroll or 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. These are my SBs for both lists:

LIST A
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

LIST B
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Karakas
1 Leonin Bola
1 Batterskull

If you're wondering why my 2nd SB has just 1 Tezz, it's because I moved 3 to the MD. My first list has Cursed Scroll for the 3 MD flex slots. I have found Cursed Scroll to be VERY GOOD. However, it's a blank against combo, and I'm concerned that my SB in the first list can't handle OmniTell AND Sneak Show at the same time. So, hence I thought of moving 3 Tezzs in MD, and then adding more niche cards in the SB against Sneak-Show.

=============================================================================

On another note, I have also been thinking about adding Phyrexian Revoker in my deck to counter Rishadan Port, Wasteland, or any kind of cards that has abilities that are so damn annoying...This is just a thought but I might look in to them : D

Pithing Needle is the droid you're looking for. Phyrexian Revoker can't name lands.

Geeksire

06-27-2013, 06:36 PM

At this point, I have settled on two Esperblade Affinity lists, with differences in the SB and only 3 cards MD.

My term 'Esperblade Affinity' denotes a UWB version of Affinity that features Stoneforge Mystic with an optional Equipment package outside of Cranial Plating.

After relentless testing, here's what I believe to be the CORE of Esperblade Affinity:

Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmite
4 Signal Pest
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
1 Paradise Mantle
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flex-slots

For the 3 MD slots, I am deciding between 3 Cursed Scroll or 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. These are my SBs for both lists:

LIST A
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

LIST B
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Karakas
1 Leonin Bola
1 Batterskull

If you're wondering why my 2nd SB has just 1 Tezz, it's because I moved 3 to the MD. My first list has Cursed Scroll for the 3 MD flex slots. I have found Cursed Scroll to be VERY GOOD. However, it's a blank against combo, and I'm concerned that my SB in the first list can't handle OmniTell AND Sneak Show at the same time. So, hence I thought of moving 3 Tezzs in MD, and then adding more niche cards in the SB against Sneak-Show.

=============================================================================

Pithing Needle is the droid you're looking for. Phyrexian Revoker can't name lands.

Well damn. Thanks! : D

Shawon

06-29-2013, 03:38 PM

Alright, Geeksire, as promised, I’m going to provide some useful tips on using Arcbound Ravager. However, I’m going to do something different and pose some scenarios involving Ravager, then I'll let you guys tell me your solution! I figured this would be a fun way to get engage posters and get them to think.

So, if you want to answer or if you are stuck, I ask that you please quote any of my scenarios in your post, or as many as you want, but separate the scenarios in different quotes and make sure your reply is directly below the quoted scenario. I’ll be reading the replies, and I may or may not provide some feedback.

I’m going to start out with some easy scenarios. The easy ones will be mostly theoretical, since I encounter them some many times I can’t remember them. Eventually, the scenarios will get tougher, and those scenarios will most likely be based from games I’ve played.

Ravager Scenario #1

It’s your turn. Your opponent has on the battlefield: Insect Aberration (UNtapped), Volcanic Island (tapped), Tropical Island (2x) (tapped), Tarmogoyf (UNtapped). He or she has 7 life. You can assume your opponent is playing RUG Delver. They have no cards in hand.

You (3 life) have on the battlefield: Ornithopter (2x), Frogmite, Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating (unattached), Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod. No cards in hand.

You draw an Arcbound Ravager. You can win this turn. How do you do it, and why you should go for the kill this turn?

Shawon

07-07-2013, 02:21 AM

Hmm, no responses, really?

I find that I can't rely on my memory to come up with scenarios that involve using Ravager, if I can only remember most of it and not all. There are seemingly small but significant factors dependent on game situations that influence the decision into pumping Ravager. To come up with more scenarios, I have to play more games and write down what happens in games I end up using Ravager to play a major part of winning.

Anyway, the scenario below is one that I can easily remember since it only happened within the first two or three turns. This one is actually hard for beginners, so think carefully on this one!

Ravager Scenario #2

It’s game 2 against Zoo and your opponent’s 2nd or 3rd turn. They have a 2/2 Wild Nacatl backed by Savannah. You have a Frogmite and Arcbound Ravager as your creatures, both untapped, with a Drum and 2 artifact lands. Your opponent drops a Taiga, which makes Nacatl into a 3/3 and swings. Your opponent just gave you a HUGE tell. What is it? Knowing the “tell,” you know you have to block, but how do you block?

Heresy

07-07-2013, 09:50 AM

Ravager Scenario #1

I believe you have to play Arcbound Ravager then equip Cranial Plating to one of the Ornithopter. Swing with 2x Ornithopter and Frogmite. Equipped Ornithopter and Frogmite are blocked. Before damage, sac every artifacts (6) except unblocked Ornithopter + Arcbound Ravager itself to give 7 counters for lethal? You have to win now for the chance they draw a Ligtning Bolt.

SirTylerGalt

07-07-2013, 10:23 AM

I believe you have to play Arcbound Ravager then equip Cranial Plating to one of the Ornithopter. Swing with 2x Ornithopter and Frogmite. Equipped Ornithopter and Frogmite are blocked. Before damage, sac every artifacts (6) except unblocked Ornithopter + Arcbound Ravager itself to give 7 counters for lethal? You have to win now for the chance they draw a Ligtning Bolt.

If you want to equip an Ornithopter with Cranial Plating, you need to tap the Frogmite for Springleaf Drum. But you don't really need to equip it anyway, you can just attack with both Ornithopters then pump the unblocked one :)

Ravager Scenario #2

It’s game 2 against Zoo and your opponent’s 2nd or 3rd turn. They have a 2/2 Wild Nacatl backed by Savannah. You have a Frogmite and Arcbound Ravager as your creatures, both untapped, with a Drum and 2 artifact lands. Your opponent drops a Taiga, which makes Nacatl into a 3/3 and swings. Your opponent just gave you a HUGE tell. What is it? Knowing the “tell,” you know you have to block, but how do you block?

I have no idea what "tell" you are talking about. I guess if my opponent attacks into Ravager, he might be holding a Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile?

I guess I'd sacrifice the Springleaf Drum to pump ravager to a 2/2, then double block the Wild Nacatl. If opponent casts Path to Exile on Ravager, I'd respond by saccing it to itself, making Frogmite a 4/4. If opponent casts Path to Exile on Frogmite, I'd sac it to pump Ravager to 3/3, then sac a land to pump it to 4/4 to kill the Nacatl and survive...

Shawon

07-07-2013, 11:29 AM

I believe you have to play Arcbound Ravager then equip Cranial Plating to one of the Ornithopter. Swing with 2x Ornithopter and Frogmite. Equipped Ornithopter and Frogmite are blocked. Before damage, sac every artifacts (6) except unblocked Ornithopter + Arcbound Ravager itself to give 7 counters for lethal? You have to win now for the chance they draw a Ligtning Bolt.

DING DING DING! I'm glad you also answered my question on why you have to go for the kill. That's the first step of becoming better at using Ravager, to know when you have enough resources to go all-in and steal a victory right under your opponent's nose.

I have no idea what "tell" you are talking about. I guess if my opponent attacks into Ravager, he might be holding a Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile?

That's like 90% of it, but how do you know whether or not they are holding BOTH Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile? Your opponent probably doesn't have both of those cards, because if they did, they would have played both to clear the board for Nacatl to attack for 3.

I guess I'd sacrifice the Springleaf Drum to pump ravager to a 2/2, then double block the Wild Nacatl. If opponent casts Path to Exile on Ravager, I'd respond by saccing it to itself, making Frogmite a 4/4. If opponent casts Path to Exile on Frogmite, I'd sac it to pump Ravager to 3/3, then sac a land to pump it to 4/4 to kill the Nacatl and survive...

Eros Correcto. That's actually a little bit better than what I did. I double blocked first, and then sacrificed Drum, and in response played Punishing Fire and targeted my Ravager. Much better card to see than Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile :cool: Anyway, the key here is to double block so that you guarantee yourself that you can take out the Nacatl even if they play a removal spell.

frogger42

07-07-2013, 09:42 PM

Hello gentlemen! I'm running a sorta-Affinity build, except a lot more control. I've got a thread on the New and Dev board, and thought I'd solicit some more traditional Aff advice for the deck:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24165-Balls-of-Steel-The-200-Solution

Sorry I don't have a whole lot to contribute here! Thanks!

Griselpuff

07-19-2013, 01:19 PM

Shawon

07-19-2013, 01:27 PM

With the popularity of so many durdle-y midrange decks featuring Abrupt Decay, I've found Shrapnel Blast versions to be the best for today's metagame. I have a friend who has Top 4'd two recent 20+ local tournaments (all the players have legit decks) with Shrapnel Blast/Galvanic Blast all in Affinity.

Immensely disagree. Stoneforge Mystic allows you to play the value game against Abrupt Decay decks.

EDIT: I think a better direction to go with Affinity splashing Red is abusing Magus of the Moon, using the fact that your artifact lands are still artifacts under the Blood Moon effect to allow the potential to hit big with Ravager or Master of Etherium.

EDIT(2): I was toying with a Blood Moon list last week. Looked like this:

4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [4E] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MBS] Signal Pest
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
1 [FD] Paradise Mantle
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle

Zupponn

07-19-2013, 02:55 PM

Both of these lines of play bug me a tad.

I guess I'd sacrifice the Springleaf Drum to pump ravager to a 2/2, then double block the Wild Nacatl. If opponent casts Path to Exile on Ravager, I'd respond by saccing it to itself, making Frogmite a 4/4. If opponent casts Path to Exile on Frogmite, I'd sac it to pump Ravager to 3/3, then sac a land to pump it to 4/4 to kill the Nacatl and survive...
What if your opponent does nothing after you make the Ravager a 2/2? Ravager dies in combat and then they Bolt Frogmite in response to the Modular trigger. 2 cards for 3. You come out behind.

Eros Correcto. That's actually a little bit better than what I did. I double blocked first, and then sacrificed Drum, and in response played Punishing Fire and targeted my Ravager. Much better card to see than Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile :cool: Anyway, the key here is to double block so that you guarantee yourself that you can take out the Nacatl even if they play a removal spell.
First, I'm assuming that your opponent used Punishing Fire and not you. Then it really boils down to your opponent misplaying. What he should have done is let the Nacatl die in combat (killing Ravager) and then Punishing Fire the Frogmite in response to the Modular trigger. Again you are 2 for 3ed and put yourself into a hole against an aggressive deck that will punish you for it.

Personally, I feel that you need to take 3 damage here and build up your board to kill them as fast as you can.

Shawon

07-19-2013, 03:04 PM

Yes, my opponent played Punishing Fire, not me ofc. Anyway, if my opponent never played Punishing Fire in response to my first sac, I would have just keep saccing to make Ravager into a 4/4 and respond accordingly if my opponent played Burn/PtE in response to Ravager. I still stand by choosing to double block, because it forces the opponent to decide to use removal or let their Nacatl die.

Zupponn

07-19-2013, 05:46 PM

So you sac everything but Frogmite, making Ravager a 4/4, while double blocking. Wild Nacatl does 2 damage to Fromite, killing it, then one damage to Ravager. Bolt hits Ravager and you have an empty board. Doesn't sound too good to me.

Shawon

07-19-2013, 08:35 PM

Luckily that never happened :) To be honest, I can't remember exactly how many artifacts I had besides Frogmite and Ravager. I could have had five if I started my hand with seven playable cards by my opponents 2nd or 3rd so I could have had enough to make Ravager 5/5. Yeah on second thought, doing that would have been unnecessarily risky. I think you bring up a good point that the Zoo player could have just let their Nacatl die and use a Burn spell to kill Frogmite in response to Modular. Good catch.

ehotonic

07-30-2013, 07:50 PM

I had meant to post here a while back, but got busy; oh well.

I was running the Ravager-less Esper Affinity that you had advocated here earlier; I was liking that deck, but felt like I kept getting outpaced for whatever reason. Anyway, I decided to dump the SfM and the Ancient Dens (the only white stuff besides the Cannonists for the SB) and go back to the UB version featuring more Tezz (and swarmy stuff). I went to the local with this:

2 Tezz

4 Thopters
4 Memnites
4 Vault Skirge
3 Signal Pest
3 Etched Champions
2 Master of Etherium

2 Baleful Strix

4 Thoughtcast
2 Thoughtseize

4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Glimmervoid (I know, you hate this card :wink:)
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
2 Tezz
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Spell Pierce
2 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Revokers
2 Dismember
1 GftT

I had pretty good battles with this list. Ended up 2-2 on the night, but with all going to 3rd match. Here's a super brief recap from what I can recall:

vs. Stax:
First game he starts with Mox Diamonds and Crucible of World-type of stuff going on. I keep a hand with a free guy, a vault skirge, a cranial plating, and tezz. I get the skirge out first turn, he kinda dicks around with some lands, but doesn't do much. I end up just on turn 4 playing Tezz and turning an ornithopter into a 5/5 to swing with a plating; at this point he mumbles something about not expecting affinity, plays an O-ring or something that doesn't do much and he scoops on his dead draw after I thoughtseize him and my next attack. I SB in my spell pierces, Tezz-es, and revokers (for signal pests, springleaf drums, and some combo of etched/master). Second game he gets his Smokestacks out and gets me in a soft lock, recurring a wasteland, destroying all my lands, playing stuff like Ghostly Prisons and O-rings; I scoop once he finally manages to get a threat out (which took forever). Third game was like the first, though he gets a ghostly Prison out, but I'm hitting all my land drops, chaining out mox opals, and end up just going Tezz ultimate on him. 2-1

vs. RUG
First game I get swarmed by Delvers and a Mongoose, while he counters everything I play with FoW and etc. (Guy's a major asshole, btw, though everyone else was cool that night). Second game I SB in my chalices and spell pierce. I draw an ancient tomb and 2 chalices in my opening hand, so just go for the turn 0 Chalice for 1; it sticks, no FoW. He was pretty much dead to rites after that -- never had any removal for it and was all pissy about it. It takes me a sec to kill him, since I didn't have many early threats; Tezz ultimate does the deed, though. Third game I should have mulliganed, but had all the ingredients to have a fat cranial plating'ed vault skirge so I kept. Unfortunately, he got a delver out and just countered everything I tried (and was dismembering whatever creatures I could play). So, oh well. 1-2.

vs. Combo Elves
A friend of mine here. First game I come out able to dump my whole hand basically with a cranial plating out and a mox. I get him down to half life or so; he looks uneasy, but ends up top-decking that 3-cast elf that destroys target artifact when it EtB; using one of the other elves that lets him return an elf to his hand in order to untap an elf, he's able to play her like 2 or 3 times and wipe practically wipe my board, lol! He then Natural Orders into a Craterhoof Behemouth and that's that. Second game I SB in counters and chalices; chalices in my opening hand, and I'm able to turn 2 chalice for 1; I get a plating out and am able to fly over a few things to get the kill. Third game I'm able to chain out some moxes to get a skirge with a plating out on turn 1; I get him down to like 8, but his deck goes off and stomps me out with the Craterhoof. 1-2.

vs. Reanimator
Another friend. Game one, he doesn't quite have the goods, and I'm able to get two fliers out and a plating (and enough black mana to equip during combat); he reanimates a Griselbrand, but it's not enough. I SB in chalices, have to mulligan down to 5, but he's got a god-hand and just tells me I lose -- he was right. Turn 2 Elesh Norn. It got late (there was some gigantic standard tournament that bumped the legacy stuff back that night), so we just draw and go have beers.

Tezz is just so damn good. He was never bad in any game, hah. The other unheralded stars of the night were the 4 cards I subbed in for the SfM when I run the toolkit: the Thoughtseizes and the Baleful Strix. I just bought a third Strix, and I'm thinking about going up to 3, taking out a champion, actually, though maybe a Springleaf Drum or a Signal Pest. The new rules with the Mox Opal are just so amazing, which is why I wanted to return to this deck (affinity in general, I mean -- I had been playing something else in Legacy lately). Chalice of the Void is the best SB card.

Anyway, that's that. I had messed around with playing the SfM alongside Tezz in the MB, but just couldn't get it to work out right -- the deck seemed clunky or something. I might bring this version back in a couple weeks with another Strix and maybe even MB a third Tezz.

Shawon

07-30-2013, 09:11 PM

You should definitely give SFM another chance, except this time replacing a Drum or just add a Paradise Mantle. I've many a time used SFM to fetch Mantle, in order to assist casting Master or Tezz, or Affinity for Artifact spells like THoughtcast or Frogmite. Making SFM minimally versatile is the key to justify running it. Jitte can be pretty handy even if you can't use it anymore to legend-rule the opponent's Jitte. Batterskull is very good to have in the 75, too.

Shawon

08-04-2013, 12:49 AM

I've found some local Legacy in CT near where I live (yay!). Tomorrow I'm going to a $5 tourney. I'll try to write a tourney report with my list afterwards.

There's a Cloudpost player I'm trying to metagame against and lately all my Legacy testing has been testing different SB ideas to beat Cloudpost. Ideally, I would go with the experimental Blood Moon list I posted, but since I couldn't find some Magus of the Moons, I'm stuck with my usual Esperblade build. Luckily, I got some Armgeddons (probably should've gotten Magi of the Moon instead, shrug) so I'm going to see how they work.

P.S. I've put my in-progress primer on the backburner as of late. Between studying for the Praxis 2 exam and other real-life stuff, I just don't have the time to write the primer the way I want to, but the thread is in dire need of a new primer, so I'll try to come up with something short that provides an introductory perspective. Anyway, that news was just for anyone who was curious about the primer I was writing.

Shawon

08-05-2013, 01:17 AM

The Cloudpost player never showed up. In fact, only 4 people showed up lol and we ended up playing a Round-Robin tournament. I won the whole thing.

R1 vs. Sneak-Show: I should mention that I only won this matchup because I watched this guy sleeve up his Show and Tell deck while having a conversation. Thus, I reconfigured my SB to run anti-S&T cards since the Cloudpost player didn't show up. G1 is a trivial loss. G2 I win without using any hate. G3 was really interesting. He TURN 1's a Show and Tell, but he uses it to drop Sneak Attack and I drop.... Pithing Needle :tongue: I still mess up though, by miscalculating my Ravager counters to make Inkmoth a 9/9 instead of a 10/10. However, I save my own ass by letting my opponent keep Blood Moon instead of E. Truth or Through the Breach off of his Intuition. His Blood Moon ends up screwing him more than me as I just recover my board that I sacrificed to Ravager and he can't activate his Sneak Attack due to the Pithing Needle I never sacrificed to give my Ravager 10 counters. Redemption. Anyway, the game is over once I manage to cast Stoneforge Mystic and tutor up Leonin Bola. I'm lucky he didn't play Pyroclasm because I definitely overextended that game.

R2 vs. Homebrew Delver/Jace Control: I win G1 since his hand is slow. G2 I think I have a bad hand, or I think he just stabilized. G3 was just bad for him as I drew the nuts. We've played before, and it does feel like our matchup is like a cointoss, but the guy admits he needs to be running some artifact hate in the SB.

R3 vs. Smallpox: Historically, the worst matchup... for the Smallpox player. In the last game, I shut down his Cursed Scroll and SDT with Needles. One thing I'm reconsidering is keeping some Tezzs in. I left them out during G2 and G3 because I thought I would never get to cast them against Smallpox, but I was able to cast a friggin Batterskull, so I might reconsider leaving them out. Since the Smallpox build I faced was a little slower (control-based) than the traditional destroy-everything (i.e. attrition-based) variety, Tezzeret might be castable.

Ended up winning 6 M14 packs. Even when I had another guy open them for me (my luck with boosters is terrible), I still wound up with shit.

Griselpuff

08-11-2013, 09:48 PM

2 questions for you Shawon:

1. Do you have any other competitive Legacy decks and do you ever play them?
2. What's your latest list? I have a friend who is borrowing my Affinity deck and he's struggling a lot and I want to make it better. Granted, he is a new player so makes a few mistakes from time to time.

Shawon

08-11-2013, 11:55 PM

1. Do you have any other competitive Legacy decks and do you ever play them?

I only own Affinity and thus am only concerned with playing Affinity. It's been the only deck I've been testing seriously for a year and a half now.

2. What's your latest list? I have a friend who is borrowing my Affinity deck and he's struggling a lot and I want to make it better. Granted, he is a new player so makes a few mistakes from time to time.

It depends on which list you want to see. I have an Esperblade list with a Stoneforge package, I have an Esper list that uses Armageddon post-board so I can beat this local Cloudpost player (not Rock Lee), and I have a Moon Affinity list that I can't wait to try in next week's tournament once I get my Magus of the Moon in the mail. The Moon list is still under construction. With Magus MD, I am still deciding between running Stoneforge Mystic or Arcbound Ravager. Affinity requires lots of research and testing if you want to come up with an optimized list.

Griselpuff

08-12-2013, 02:22 PM

Normal esper list please no Armageddon

Shawon

08-12-2013, 02:44 PM

Esperblade Affinity

Mana
12 Artifact Lands (:u::w::b:)
4 Inkmoth
4 Opal
3 Drum
1 Mantle

Critters
12 'Nite/Thopter/'Mite
4 Pest
4 Ravager
3 SFM

Business
4 Plating
4 TC
4 Tezz
1 Jitte

SB:
4 Chalice
4 Sculler
3 Pithing Needle
1 BSkull
3 Flex

Shawon

08-21-2013, 11:22 PM

Thought I'd share my latest version of the Moon-based Affinity build I've been working on:

Mana
16 Artifact Lands (:w::r::b::u:)
4 Opal
4 Drum

Critters
12 Free guys
4 Signal Pest
4 Ravager
4 Magus of the Moon

Business
4 TC
4 Plating
4 Galvanic Blast

So the latest developments I've made with deck have been deciding to run Ravager over a Stoneforge Mystic package and running Galvanic Blast over Tezzeret. Ravager just seemed like what I needed to make my creature offense more robust to compensate for the lack of actual offense that Magus of the Moon (even though it's a creature itself). I think I may have judged my decision off of only one match against RUG, but having 8 MD cards that are too slow or irrelevant to do anything in g1 against RUG or other aggressive decks (not necessarily aggro, but Merfolk is another example) just seemed like I needed to compensate. Hence that is why I'm running Galvanic Blast, a card I haven't played with in a LONG time, over Tezzeret. Blast also has the benefit of just being a good burn spell, so I'll welcome the change. I'm still thinking of keeping Tezz SB against control decks though.

As for the SB, it's still in flux. I originally had Blood Moon in the SB, as my original intent to testing a Moon build was to try it out against a local Cloudpost player, but I don't think I want to use it. I think it's overkill.

I'm still evaluating how useful Tidehollow Sculler is. Has anyone else tried him, and with Ravager? I am also thinking of trying out REB (Red Elemental Blast) since I am already running Red.

I think it's funny, given that I used to play Dragon Stompy, that I'm playing a Moon-based deck that still tries to play four colors. LOL.

Amon Amarth

08-23-2013, 02:47 AM

Has anyone considered an Affinity list in the vein of this:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45582.0

Obviously no Shops so that changes things but it looks like a pretty cool idea. Would Genesis Chamber be something worth exploring? What about Wire or Revoker?

Shawon

08-23-2013, 08:40 AM

Genesis Chamber is mainly used in Vintage Affinity because of Skullclamp and the fact that decks sometimes need to factor in cards that resist Smokestack. So I don't think the use of Genesis Chamber in Vintage would be easily transferable into Legacy Affinity.

Though I have pondered the idea of using Thopter Foundry, another token generator. I think it's a playable card in Affinity just by itself, without Sword of the Meek. It's great defense since you gain life and create blockers, and it can create good offense if you have Plating since your tokens are fliers.

Tangle Wire has been discussed before. It's decent disruption. One of the best things you can do is play Tangle Wire, tap your opponent's perms, and then EOT sacrifice to Ravager and go for the kill next turn.

Revoker has been discussed and used in lists many many times.

ehotonic

08-23-2013, 10:21 PM

Taking Affinity once again to the weekly Legacy tourney at the shop around here. I'm going with a very slightly adjusted UB Non-Ravager version (Showon: I noticed you run 4 Tezz with your 4 Ravagers -- how often do you run into trouble with the slightly anti-synergistic dynamic going on between them? Ya know, one wants artifacts, the other eats 'em all up :wink: Or are you using Tezz to just make your inkmoths that much scarier?)

It's basically my previous list, just:

+1 Tezz; +1 Baleful Strix; +1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth; -1 Academy Ruins; -1 Champion; -1 Drum.

UB Tezzy-Swarmy Affinity

3 Tezz

4 Thopters
4 Memnites
4 Vault Skirge
3 Signal Pest
2 Champions (I love Etched Champion, so might be 3 of him and 2 Pests)
2 Masters
3 Baleful Strix (the unsung hero of my last tourney)

4 Thoughtcast
2 Thoughtseize

4 Cranial Plating
2 Drums
4 Opals

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Darkslick Shores (or, possibly 1 Darkslick and 1 Underground Sea -- not sure about the latter since a buddy of mine runs Merfolk and Islandwalk -- yes, Islandwalk -- wins him games ALL THE TIME; if he's there I might just go with 2 Shores)
2 Glimmervoid
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (surprisingly helpful in testing)

SB:
1 Tezz
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Spell Pierce
2 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Revokers
2 Dismember
2 GftT

I'll see how it goes and report back :cool: Last time I had a good run, was right in every game. The meta is so all over the place at this shop, so I'll be running up against a lot of stuff.

ehotonic

08-23-2013, 10:24 PM

P.S. I've been tinkering with trying to get Thopter Foundry into an Affinity build... though I'm not so sure it works for what this type of affinity deck is up to. It fits great into that Tezz/Jace deck... but, ya know, that's a whole different deck than what we are working with here.

Shawon

08-23-2013, 11:01 PM

(Showon: I noticed you run 4 Tezz with your 4 Ravagers -- how often do you run into trouble with the slightly anti-synergistic dynamic going on between them? Ya know, one wants artifacts, the other eats 'em all up Or are you using Tezz to just make your inkmoths that much scarier?)

If you are able to fire off a Tezzeret ultimate, that usually means you just win the game right there so it doesn't matter if you sacrificed some of your artifacts to Ravager already. It's a non-issue. If Tezz's ultimate isn't enough to kill your opponent, you can just use the ultimate first and then use Ravager shenanigans to finish the job.

frogger42

08-24-2013, 07:38 PM

Though I have pondered the idea of using Thopter Foundry, another token generator. I think it's a playable card in Affinity just by itself, without Sword of the Meek. It's great defense since you gain life and create blockers, and it can create good offense if you have Plating since your tokens are fliers.

*raises hand* I use Thopter Foundry! I 4x it with 4x SFM, and 4x Cranial (1x Sword of the Meek). It's unbelievable; it smashes most control MUs because they can't wrath instant-speed every turn. It also eats up extra Opals and lands. The card isn't super-powerful on its own, but it is very useful, and then becomes a game-breaker when you find SFM or Sword later on. I like it much much better than Baleful Strix.

Shawon

08-26-2013, 12:40 AM

Yay, an Affinity list made a SCG top 16 this weekend at Baltimore and it's not actually shitty:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58707

Creatures (26)
4 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium
3 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands (15)
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
1 Ancient Tomb

Spells (16)
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughtcast

Sideboard

1 Batterskull
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Mindbreak Trap

The list could be a lot better, such as getting rid of the random 1-ofs - though they could be due to card availability - but overall, the list is pretty solid.

AggroSteve

08-26-2013, 06:12 AM

hello guys, hope you are doing well

did not post in this thread for an eternity cause i switched to other decks (mainly rock), but now i have the feeling i want to get my affinity back together as it was my first deck ever :P

i was wondering about a few things... i did read a lot in this thread lately, and basically you only see either straight UB-Tezzeret-Swarm lists, or Esper lists with SFM
aren't there any other reasonable spashes? red ok... galvanic blast maybe but it is not really needed, and i dislike it... are there maybe some good cards in the green-spash that could be of use in any of the matchups? sylvan library maybe, together with vault skirge it could be awesome, basically draw 3 each turn

another question i got is if there are some good manasinks for affinity, or maybe even some sort of combo-potential with maybe gaes cradle?

last question is: what sideboard cards are used for what matchup? a few cards are obvious, but what cards in the different spashes help the most in problematic matchups (and what are the most problematic matchups?)

thanks in advance

Shawon

08-26-2013, 12:42 PM

Affinity can splash Red to good effect, but it shouldn't be splashed just so you can use Galvanic Blast. I'm trying out a 4-color build of Affinity with red in it for Magus of the Moon. Magus of the Moon is pretty good so far, since it can disrupt your opponent's manabase but do minimal damage to yours.

Green is the worst color you can splash in Affinity. Glimpse of Nature is the best green card you can run, but it only just makes Affinity into a bad combo deck. Sylvan Library wouldn't be bad card to run in Affinity, but it doesn't seem worth it to splash green for it.

There are combo approaches you can explore with Affinity, such as Glimpse of Nature or Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, but similar to what I had said, playing combo in Affinity just makes it into a bad combo deck and a bad aggro deck. If Skullclamp were unbanned, then I can see Affinity going through a combo approach with Skullclamp, maybe even using Gaea's Cradle. But for now, I think you should just focus on being an aggro deck when playing Affinity.

The most problematic matchups for Affinity are combo decks like Storm or Show and Tell decks. Most of your SB should be devoted to beating combo. There are lots of options to choose from. Chalice of the Void is good against Storm, so is Ethersworn Canonist, and even Phyrexian Revoker. You want your anti-combo cards to have overlap and be useful against more than one combo deck. Canonist is good against Storm, but also good against OmniTell. Revoker is good against Sneak Attack, but it is also useful against Storm since it shuts off LED. And so on.

ehotonic

08-28-2013, 08:54 PM

@Shawon: First, cool to see that Esper Affinity doing well! That was really close to the one I was playing before I wanted to switch it up a little.

@AggroSteve: As far as combo-potential goes, I recently saw some weird deck somewhere that splashes :r: and uses Metalworker to burn the opponent, but it seemed really janky and wholly contingent on having Metalworker; without it, the deck was sort of impotent. Personally, I've found that adding that third color in Affinity can be very occasionally problematic to ripping off your Cranial Plating swap during an attack; we don't have all the fetches and duals at our disposal, so it can be an issue even with Springleaf Drums and Moxes fixing for you. I ran the Esper Affinity pretty similar to the one Shawon just posted above with great success, but just was interested in changing things up a little bit (I think my latest permutation is posted somewhere above -- basically trades off SfM for some black disruption). Regarding your SB question, CHALICE OF THE VOID! If your meta runs a lot of RUG Delver (mine does), it just dominates since everything in their deck is basically 1cc (against Elves it's great, too, since it can delay them from going off by bouncing elves); and, hell, also just great against anything :u: for that matter: no Brainstorms/Ponders (bad news for Show and Tell; stops all of Reanimator's graveyard dump cards, Entombs and Careful Study, etc.). I only recently started playing with Chalice, but I find myself always SB'ing a playset. Otherwise, I just like spot-removal, hence why I run 4 in my SB, along with some graveyard hate and some other disruption. Storm is not very prevalent in my meta, so I'm not too concerned with that at the moment.

@frogger42: Would you mind posting your deck list when you get a chance? I'd be curious to see how you integrate Thopter Foundry.

Shawon

09-08-2013, 11:21 AM

1-0 at SCG Philly, 2-0'd Goblins. Updates to follow.

Edit: 2-0. Beat RUG Delver. Game 3 my opponent TRIPLE mulliganed. I almost felt bad but then I remembered I hate RUG.

SirTylerGalt

09-08-2013, 05:01 PM

1-0 at SCG Philly, 2-0'd Goblins. Updates to follow.

Edit: 2-0. Beat RUG Delver. Game 3 my opponent TRIPLE mulliganed. I almost felt bad but then I remembered I hate RUG.

I root for you. It'd be awesome to see Affinity in the top 8!

Shawon

09-09-2013, 11:08 AM

So I ended up 5-4 at SCG Philly, winning 5 games in a row... and then losing four games in a row. I won against Goblins, 2 Storm decks, RUG Delver, and URW Delver. I lost to BWR Stoneblade, then to goblin master Jim Davis, and to two OmniTell decks. There's definitely a lot of things I learned, since this was my first Open, but I'm kinda too lazy to elaborate on all of my experiences in writing, such as being more nervous than my first round opponent was probably half my age, forgetting A LOT of triggers, and familiarizing myself with REL rules and trying not to get screwed by them or my opponents. OH, and I learned one knew rules interaction that I always assumed worked differently: if you swap one of your Equipment to another creature, and it fizzles because your opponent removes it, the Equipment stays on the original creature. I never would've realized that until a judge watching told me about that.

I could have fought hard just to turn my loss to BWR Stoneblade into a draw because we played g2 into overtime, but I'm glad I was able to enjoy a nice game after I did not enjoy my game against UWR Delver, despite winning, because my opponent was trying to rules-fuck me in every situation.

Jim Davis is a really cool guy, and I'm glad I got to be on a Feature match with him (I did say no to being on camera, sorry Twitter), and he helped me let go of my nervousness. As he said "Haters just hate, they don't do," so I'll have to remember that next time I'm at an Open or I'm nervous at a tournament. He did kick my ass though. I got mana screwed out of white on g2, and I just sat there with a SFM and Batterskull in my hand as Jim just obliterated me. I think I'm going to dump the Stoneforge package and go back to running Etched Champions, if I'm going to continue playing Moon lists. Or I could just go back to running my Esperblade list.

I ran less hate against Omni-Tell this Open, but despite facing two OmniTell decks in a row, I don't regret my decision considering there was my last two losses. I'm more concerned with my MD now that I have to rethink how I face Goblins. Although, in my last match against OmniTell, I had 2 out of 2 Canonists on the board and a Ravager. The guy won by playing a Rushing River with kicker off of Omniscience, which I have to say was pretty awesome. If he had Echoing Truth, he would've been nailed because I could just sacrifice my Canonist in response to protect the other one.

Good times. Shout outs to John for being a good tournament guardian angel and Jeremiah Rudolph (aka Rock Lee in our forums) for organizing the ride to Philly and being the reason I came to Philly!

AggroSteve

09-10-2013, 07:58 PM

Shawon

09-10-2013, 08:26 PM

hi guys.... i would need some help here

i have serious problems constructing a usefull sideboard

i have problems for straight UB, for UBw and for UBr

what cards do i want to counter, and what options would be appropriate in the different matchups

thanks in advance

Could you elaborate on your problems? Are you referring to other decks that are UB or UBx, or just builds of Affinity?

I can list for you all of the SB options that are relevant now, but I think the best way to help you out and others is to share with you two principles I operate under when constructing SBs for Affinity:

- Aim to run SB cards that have versatile application. Chalice of the Void is an example. It is not only good against fast Storm Combo, including Belcher, but it is also handy versus Delver Tempo decks that rely on a bevy of 1-mana spells.

- Primarily consider only artifacts as your SB options, and only consider nonartifact spells unless they are very versatile. Running Dismember or Dispatch just to have removal against creatures is bad SBing because you are likely removing artifacts to fit in those SB cards and you are thus reducing the internal synergy of Affinity. However, running something like Spell Pierce is a very smart SB option, because when you are able to resolve it against a critical spell (such as Show and Tell or Terminus), it is worth the trouble of diluting your deck since it can be such a life saver.

As I said, I can enumerate you all of the SB cards that you should be thinking about, but I will give you a small example of what I am currently working on now. After some reflection upon SCG Philly, this is my latest SB rendition for the Moon Affinity build:

SB
4 Chalice
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Vedalken Certarch
3 Ethersworn Canonist

Even though I'm running Certarch, a nonartifact creature, over half of my SB are all artifacts. Now look at the applications each SB option has against various matchups. We already discussed Chalice. Ethersworn Canonist is also relevant against OmniTell, but it is a must-answer card against Storm decks. Tidehollow Sculler is good hate against OmniTell decks since it is not only hand disruption, but it is also live against Sneak Show, whereas Ethersworn Canonist isn't. Vedalken Certarch is an excellent foil against Sneak-Show, but it can also be brought in against control decks.

EDIT: also, what are your thoughts on steel overseer, and on lightning greaves in this deck?

Like any other two-drop (Ravager, SFM), it can be very bad for your opponent if they choose to ignore it. However, unlike Ravager or SFM, it doesn't have immediate impact on the board state and its usefulness depends on its own survival after resolution. I wouldn't run it.

Lightning Greaves is very interesting and unique. But shroud has some anti-synergy with Plating. How about... Swiftfoot Boots? Hexproof and haste is definitely a spicy combination to have on a creature.

Shawon

09-23-2013, 10:03 PM

AggroSteve

09-24-2013, 03:20 AM

After losing to Reanimator in a local tourney, I came around to putting back gy hate in the sb, and with that consideration came new brainstorming on updating SB flexibility. However, I felt I also needed cards to deal with Reanimator post-reanimation, so I decided to add in Karakas and O-Ring. Of course, I chose those cards specifically due to their additional relevance to Sneak-Show.

Latest SB:

4 Chalice/Thorn
4 Cage
1 Karakas
3 O-Ring
3 Canonist

I literally just had this idea as I'm writing this: I'm thinking about trying out Thorn of Amethyst over Chalice, to double up as Storm hate and Omni-hate. Keep in mind, I'm back to running Ancient Tombs, 4 MD this time instead of 3. EDIT: Already hating Thorn as Storm hate.

i was wondering why you would run cage over relic of progenitus

cage practically works only against reanimator and dredge (maybe i am missing something, maybe storm via past in flames or combo elves but that should allready be dealt with due to canonists and chalice)

relic has the same applications but against more matchups like maverick, Rug, Bug-tempo, any green deck with big beaters like goyf, KotR

additionally every topdecked relic can be cycled or used for more graveyard controll, cage does not stack and would be an awefull topdeck after you allready have one in play, and the only matchups it is worse than cage is dredge and combo elves

on the chalice vs. thorn topic:
i would definitely prefer chalice, it can outright kill some decks and make the win quite easy, thorn on the other hand can be usefull in more matchups but without taxing effects in this deck thorn may only buy one turn or not even hinder the opponent as much as a chalice would, both cards do not hinder our gameplan (allthough thorn a bit more) and therefore thorn is woy worse than chalice

well the choices obviously depend on the meta, and to further understand your decisions it would allways be needed to know about your meta as well
depending on the meta it would be preferable running whitesplash (combo), or redsplash (midrange, aggro... whipflare is an awesome card there :P)

EDIT: on oblivion ring... i do not think it is the right choice, but i do not know, i have still little testing expierience with this deck (well after 3 or 4 years i did not play it) but if you are only worried about the creatures the opponent could reanimate or put into play there would also journey to nowhere and it costs only 2 mana and also a card you mentioned vedalken certarch.... just food for thought

Shawon

09-24-2013, 07:38 AM

i was wondering why you would run cage over relic of progenitus

I'm running Cage over Relic because I want to beat Reanimator. Relic is slower and can be beat by Pithing Needle.

on the chalice vs. thorn topic:
i would definitely prefer chalice, it can outright kill some decks and make the win quite easy, thorn on the other hand can be usefull in more matchups but without taxing effects in this deck thorn may only buy one turn or not even hinder the opponent as much as a chalice would, both cards do not hinder our gameplan (allthough thorn a bit more) and therefore thorn is woy worse than chalice

I've gone back to Chalice. Being able to cast Chalice for 0 in any situation is more beneficial than I realized. Whether it is tapping out for Thoughtcast and drawing Chalice, or needing to activate Mox Opal to turn 1, Chalice@0 is pretty useful play and comes up very often.

EDIT: on oblivion ring... i do not think it is the right choice, but i do not know, i have still little testing expierience with this deck (well after 3 or 4 years i did not play it) but if you are only worried about the creatures the opponent could reanimate or put into play there would also journey to nowhere and it costs only 2 mana and also a card you mentioned vedalken certarch.... just food for thought

Journey to Nowhere doesn't also exile Omniscience. Vedalken Certarch doesn't remove Elesh Norn or Blazing Archon.

SirTylerGalt

09-25-2013, 05:40 AM

Drew Levin wrote a premium article about Affinity on SCG. It was pretty interesting. I'm almost done building the deck, and might bring it to a few local events :)

I won't reproduce the article here or post his decklist, because that wouldn't be fair, but the article will be available for free in a few weeks (IIRC SCG articles are free 1 month after being posted).

This week, he posted a second article, with videos of him playing the deck on MTGO.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26932_Introducing-A-Budget-Aggressive-Creature-Deck-That-Wins.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26984_Video-Turbo-Affinity-In-Legacy.html

Shawon

09-25-2013, 09:56 AM

dropsaway

09-26-2013, 04:35 PM

Is it possible to have a competitive deck using 2x invisible stalker, 2x Stoneforge Mystic + 1 U.Jitte in main deck?

What color combination would be better? UWr (4x Galvanic 1x Shrapnel Blast) or UWb. I have almost all the cards affinity, the only problem is: I have only 3x Mox Opal and the moment I have no Ancient Tomb available. help me with a list and side.

The field here is currently:
1x Death & Taxes
1x Sneak and Show and their mutations (Omnitell, Enter the Infinite, Dream Halls / Hive Mind - All the same owner)
1x Maverick (Splash U - Meddling Mage, Fluterstorm... etc.)
1x Goblin
1x LED Dredge
1x Belcher
1x UR Stasis
1x The Gate
2x Slivers
1x Burn
1x All Spells
1x UG Infect

I think that is all....Thanks.

- "Damn...Sneak and Show".

Shawon

09-26-2013, 08:13 PM

I don't think Invisible Stalker is any good, seeing as it's only good with Cranial Plating, and it can't be targeted by Arcbound Ravager. It seems like too much set up to try to make Invisible Stalker + Plating one of your main avenues of victory. Doesn't Etched Champion do everything Stalker does, but better?

You say they are some cards you don't have, like the 4th Mox Opal. What cards do you have? If you are going Red, do you have Whipflare, or Red Elemental Blasts? Whipflare can take care of a lot of the creature matchups, including UG Infect. It also doubles as an answer to Empty the Warrens. ReB can take care of your blue matchups, such as Show and Tell or Bant Maverick.

Since you are playing white, you can avoid having to run red just for creature removal because you can just play Dispatch. Dispatch is probably better than Galvanic Blast against UG Infect.

Do you have Chalice of the Void? Because you will need that in order to win against Belcher or All Spells.

You don't seem to have a lot of midrange or control decks, just either combo decks or creature decks, so you probably want to stay away from running Tezzeret MD (or in the 75).

I can help you more if you tell me what cards you have.

Amon Amarth

09-26-2013, 10:29 PM

I like how Drew Levin's first article on Affinity is titled "Introducing A Budget Aggressive Creature Deck That Wins," and the list has a miser's Tundra :laugh:

His list isn't actually bad, other than the miser's Tundra that is completely unnecessary other than to sell more Tundras. It's your standard UB Tezzeret with Ancient Dens instead of Darksteel Citadel for the SB Canonists. I've been looking for an excuse to go back to running Vault Skirges, and now that I'm back to running Tombs, which makes Frogmite harder to cast turn 1, I might cut the Frogs for Skirges.

The SB is pretty bad:

4 Canonist
4 Chalice
3 MBTrap
4 RiP

The MBT is overkill. RiP is too slow against Reanimator, the worst graveyard deck to face for Affinity, and furthermore, running just 4 gy-hate isn't enough. The SB has no answers against Sneak-Show other than MBT, but that's pretty terrible. You can't prepare against every combo deck with the same 15 card SB, so I can understand the focus on Storm. But there's not enough gy-hate in there.

He gives budget alternatives for Tundra like Glimmervoid. Seachrome Coast works too. I do agree on the GY hate though. I'd like one to two more cards against GY decks, cutting a couple MBT. I think Cage is the best here. I don't think RIP is too slow because Drew's deck can reliably generate two mana on the first turn. The lack of Show and Tell hate is because you can race Show and Tell decks but you can't do anything against Storm decks. They are just too fast.

I think the deck is sweet. The emphasis on evasive dorks lets you come out really fast and keep swinging. I've goldfished it a bunch and I like -1 Drum, -1 Champion +2 Steel Overseer. There were a few too many hands that were a bit too durdly and Overseer is pretty sweet to jam on turn one. It could very well be wrong since I haven't run the deck through the gauntlet yet.

Shawon

09-26-2013, 11:08 PM

He gives budget alternatives for Tundra like Glimmervoid. Seachrome Coast works too.

Tundra is still terribly bad because it has no interaction with the rest of the deck, and it creates a completely unnecessary risk of being blown out by Merfolk with their Islandwalking Lords. Furthermore, black mana is not worthless in the deck, you not only need it to cast Tezzeret, but having ways to activate Cranial Plating's second ability is not something to be overlooked. Therefore, even Glimmervoid is better than Tundra, and Glimmervoid sucks.

If a flex mana fixer is really needed, then any mana-producing artifact would be better for the 1-of slot. Paradise Mantle is way better than TUNDRA, or even Lotus Petal. At least they can be sacrificed to Ravager or help cast Thoughtcast.

I do agree on the GY hate though. I'd like one to two more cards against GY decks, cutting a couple MBT. I think Cage is the best here. I don't think RIP is too slow because Drew's deck can reliably generate two mana on the first turn. The lack of Show and Tell hate is because you can race Show and Tell decks but you can't do anything against Storm decks. They are just too fast.

RiP is too slow against Reanimator. That deck runs Daze and discard. You also can't cast Rest in Peace off of Ancient Tomb. Stick to artifact-based gy hate like Crypt, Spellbomb or Cage (no Relic) if you want to beat Reanimator.

Affinity can't race S&T decks. Maybe Sneak-Show, like occasionally, but any S&T matchup is bad pre-board. Like I said, you can't game against every combo deck, but not running SB hate against S&T decks because you think you can race them is naive.

Cacks

09-27-2013, 08:56 AM

Hi All,

please excuse me if this is an ignorant question. I was watching Drew Levin's videos, and impressed by the deck. One thing that struck me, however, is that legacy is absolutely ripe for abuse by a chalice of the void deck. A chalice on 1 destroys so many strategies, and also hinders the set up for many of this deck's (difficult) combo matchups. Do those who know such things think that main deck chalice is viable? Of course it interacts with the signal pests and drums, but the damage caused to most opponents is going to be far worse (for them!). Further, although the drums are sacrosanct, perhaps the pests could be replaced with something like steel overseer. Of course I appreciate this would affect the explosiveness of the deck. Also there is the question of what could be replaced, possibly (although this is probably heresy) the thoughtcasts?

Thanks

Justin

09-27-2013, 09:30 AM

I have Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, because as you say, it does put a hurting on a number of decks in this format. However, there aren't enough decks like that to warrant running it in the maindeck for a deck like Affinity. Maindeck Chalice is fine for mid-ranged or control decks, such as Stax, Aggro Loam, or various (fill in the blank) Stompy decks. It goes against the aggro strategy of Affinity, though. So leave it in the side and bring it in against combo, Threshold, Burn, or other decks that are really heavy on one-drops. And obviously, when you bring it in, you should focus on siding out your own one drops.

Shawon

09-28-2013, 06:48 PM

I just thought of something that could actually speed up the deck, more than Galvanic Blast could do. See this line of play and guess the card:

Turn 1: Inkmoth, Mox, Memnite, Drum, Ravager.

Turn 2: Attack with Ravager and Inkmoth. During Combat Damage Step, tap for mana, sacrifice artifacts to Ravager and then sacrifice Ravager to make Inkmoth a 5/5, cast ________ and then win!

That's six cards, but for a turn 2 win. I don't think Affinity is capable of a turn 2 finish unless you have the absolute nuts hand with Inkmoth and Ravager. My point is that with said card, you can power out a lot of fast wins. This might be our answer to beat some of the slower combo decks instead of having to SB like crazy against them. It might be too cute, but if you're running a robust offense, such as Arcbound Ravager and Inkmoth, the card's pretty live since you can just steal a win with it at any time.

BigMana

09-28-2013, 07:11 PM

Shawon

09-28-2013, 07:16 PM

Nope, it's an older card.

Woe_Bringer

09-28-2013, 07:43 PM

Its Berserk

Shawon

09-28-2013, 07:57 PM

Its Berserk

Winner winner chicken dinner

Realistically, though, I can't see myself playing with Berserk as the damn card costs like $40-80 a piece (only $40 if you get the FTV version).

Anyway, another cool trick with Berserk is attacking with a Plated Master of Etherium and resolving Berserk, easily hitting trample damage for 20+.

BigMana

10-02-2013, 02:05 AM

Maybe-lst for tomorrow. Lots of combo, tired of playing dredge.

Brobots

Creatures
4 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
3 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal

Spells
4 Thoughtcast

Plainswalkers
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Oblivion Ring

AggroSteve

10-02-2013, 04:02 AM

@big mana

i have to say i really like your list with chalice maindeck,... the only thing i do not like are the glimmervoids, i think they should be ancient dens to help the speed of the deck, because with chalice you will allready be a bit slower than stock-list affinitys, but i like your decision for a comboheavy meta

@shawon

i have a question reguarding chalice main for a straight UB list, would thorn of amethyst in this case be a good sideboard decision against combo?
and under a thorn of amethyst, does thoughcast still cost only U if you have 5 artifact in play?

Shawon

10-02-2013, 08:46 AM

@shawon

i have a question reguarding chalice main for a straight UB list, would thorn of amethyst in this case be a good sideboard decision against combo?
and under a thorn of amethyst, does thoughcast still cost only U if you have 5 artifact in play?

Remember: [Cost + Cost resistors] - Cost reducers = New Cost

So yes, Thoughtcast still costs :u: under Thorn of Amethyst if you have 5 artifacts or more in play.

[:4::u: + :1:] - :5: = :u:

civet five

10-23-2013, 02:38 AM

Remember: [Cost + Cost resistors] - Cost reducers + Cost Modifiers like Trinisphere = New Cost

Don't forget the rest of the formula! Trinisphere + Affinity for <Something> makes things cost 3.

swordoffireandice

10-27-2013, 06:52 PM

theillest

11-01-2013, 10:54 PM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60004
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Lands (14)

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Glimmervoid
Spells (19)

4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Spell Pierce
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughtcast
Sideboard

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Etched Champion
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Whipflare
Has anyone seen a tourney report for this? I'd be very interested to read it.

F8iscruel

11-18-2013, 12:54 PM

I played in GPDC over the weekend, ended up making day 2 at 7-2 and finishing up the weekened 10-5 which I don't feel was too bad for my first GP day 2 (4th GP overall) finishing in 140th out of the 1698 that showed up.
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Etched Champion
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Lands (17)

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glimmervoid
Spells (16)

4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughtcast
Sideboard

2 Whipflare
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rest in Peace
3 Ensnaring Bridge

my overall Game Record was 24-12 or something close
R1: ***BYE***
R2: RUG Delver -- 2-0
R3: Jund -- 2-1
R4: Goblins -- 2-0 (main deck goblin tinkerer, SB chalice of the void + a bunch of other artifact hate >.>)
R5: Table 1 against Sam Black on Bant Trueblade -- 2-0
R6: Storm -- 1-2
R7: Aggro Loam -- 1-2
R8: Bant Trueblade -- 2-0
R9: Grixis Delver (Eric Rill) -- 2-0
Day 2:
R10: Michael Martin on Shardless BUG -- 0-2
R11: Elves -- 1-2
R12: RUG Delver -- 2-0 (possibly 2-1 but I cannot remember)
R13: UWR Miracles -- 2-1
R14: Shardless BUG -- 2-0
R15: Sneak and Show -- 1-2 (one of these game loses was due to me being an idiot and not hearing them call the pairings... but oh well I learned my lesson)

Cheers :)

Shawon

11-18-2013, 04:55 PM

Good job on the 10-5! 140th is pretty decent when you take into account the attendance size being ~1700. You did Affinity proud.

Your MD looks nice. I'm a fan of streamlined MDs for Affinity, without any of those nonsense 1 or 2-ofs that many subpar Affinity lists run. Ever since Drew Levin's Affinity introduction piece, I've started to agree that having 25 mana sources is the way to go if you want to reliably cast bombs such as Etched Champion or Tezz. For the last two weeks, all of my goldfish testing has been focused on determining which card should be my 25th mana source, and I was literally trying out a hundred games each testing either Glimmervoid, Lotus Petal or Paradise Mantle. I started trying out Glimmervoid when I noticed a lot of mulligan-able hands with Mantle in it, however, I just couldn't stand Glimmervoid due to the fact it became utterly useless when I hit my mana threshold. I just played in a 30-man local over the weekend with Paradise Mantle, and I didn't run into any mulligan problems, so I'll probably stick to playing Mantle, since I also play Stoneforge Mystic which can grab Mantle in uncommon situations.

Do you have any insights to share regarding your wins/losses? What cards worked for you in the SB? What was your SB strategy against certain matchups; what cards did you take out and put in post-board?

Ziveeman

11-18-2013, 05:17 PM

Is that a 64 card MD or am I just miscounting? 28 creatures + 3 planeswalkers + 16 spells + 17 lands

Regardless, grats on your finish.

th3 w1z4rd

11-18-2013, 06:41 PM

When I'm searching for competitive lists I usually surf TC Decks site, probably the bigger and best database for tournament decklists: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/index.php

You should find many Affinity lists running Pierce in the last year.

Hope it will help you.

Our opinions about Pierce and Chalice are very different, or maybe we play in very different metas.

You can probably agree with me when I say Chalice is better vs RUG and many combo decks like Storm, Dredge, Reanimator and Elves (against combo Spell pierce won't save you unless you find at least 2 of them, since they usually have either lots of discard or counterspells, and sometimes both, so they will start their combo when they are sure your Pierce will be useless or discarded; while Chalice can literally make you win alone if not countered), which right now are respectively:
- the most played (and probably stronger) deck in the format
- probably our worst match-ups

Chalice is far better than Pierce also against Burn, another matchup not so favorable to us (usually Burn can deal 20 dmg faster than us, and kill our Skirges easily if we land them).

On the other hand, I would say Pierce is absolutely better vs Control because it can interact with their removal and planeswalkers.

But I don't think it would save you very often from Terminus, since they rarely play it with less then 3 total mana in play.
And against Show & tell, which is so full of counterspells that your Pierce will rarely resolve, I think Phyrexian Metamorph should definitely be more useful.
Also against Spiral tide your Pierce shouldn't resolve very often, since they play both FoW and Pact (and Pierces sometimes).

Pierce > Chalice vs planeswalkers, Pernicious deed, other forms of mass removal and generally speaking control stuff, that's for sure.

But against Control our best card probably remains Tezzeret.

Against Combo I would also play Cabal therapy (I don't remember if they are in your list) in addition to Chalice: I'm pretty sure both Chalice and Therapy are better than Pierce in combo matchups.
Of course Pierce would be very strong against combo if only we could follow a permission gameplan together with our traditional aggro plan (like Merfolks for example), but since we are Affinity we can rarely play more than 2-3 Pierces from SB... and 2-3 counters total are too few to fight current combos.

So we can come to this general conclusion, tell me if you agree with me:
- Chalice is best against many combo decks, RUG, Burn
- Pierce is best against control
- Cabal therapy is best against generic combo

So everything depends from your meta.
In my meta, the amount of RUG + Burn + Combo is bigger than Control, and that's probably why I prefer Chalice over Pierce.
Probably your meta is the opposite, since you consider Pierce the best solution.

Metas are fluid and with the recent addition of Abrupt decay there's a chance BUG control or tempo decks will find a nice spot: in that case Pierce would be very sweet against Pernicious deeds (but BUG usually plays 4x FoW and at least 4 more counterspells between Dazes and Pierces, so they could counter your Pierce) but useless against Decays.

Your examples are surely correct.

Yet they describe exactly the kind of situations I was referring before when pointing out the decks against which Pierce is better: Control.

U/W is control; also reaching mid-game to keep U open without bothering too much is a typical situation we meet against Control, since combo usually kills us (or fizzles) before mid-game, while against aggro Pierce is usually dead.

So here you are stating that Pierce is a house vs control, and I couldn't agree more as I said earlier.
But the examples you brought don't concern other kind of decks.

Of course you can keep your opinion about Pierce being generally better ("overshadowing") than Chalice.

But imho, the thoughts and reasoning I've followed in the last posts shows that Pierce shouldn't be considered "generally better" than Chalice.

We can say it's better in certain matchups, and at the same time we should say Chalice is better in others.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anyways, very nice and stimulating discussion :)

Spell Pierce doesn't blank any of your own cards. Chalice can. For example Chalice on zero could be good against combo decks that use artifact mana but it also shuts off an unacceptable number of our own cards. Chalice on one is the best option of course and that blanks Springleaf Drum and Signal Pest and also prevents you from playing the aforementioned Pierce and discard, both of which I've found excellent. Chalice on two, while great against Storm, blanks Vault Skirge, Ravager, and most importantly Cranial Plating. When I play against combo with Affinity I prefer to slow them with Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce when possible and go for the kill as fast as I can. People tend not to see Spell Pierce coming from Affinity too lol. I have beaten Reanimator, Combo Elves, Belcher, and Sneak and Show with Affinity, and I believe you all would agree that those are poor matchups. Against the Reanimator guy he went for Entomb Elesh Norn Exhume off a Sea and two Lotus Petals and I Pierced and he swore a lot and ragequit and that was Game 2 lol. This is all just my opinion of course and I do not think anyone's ideas thus far expressed are wrong. :)

th3 w1z4rd

11-18-2013, 06:59 PM

I run 4 Opals, 4 Petals/Drum, 2 Sol lands and 4 Darksteel, all cards I want to see in my opening hand against RUG. I like my odds.

I think facing RUG also emphasizes Affinity's best quality: redundancy. RUG only has consistency and not redundancy. What makes Affinity strong against RUG is a high threat density that's way too diverse to be handled by just one subset of RUG's answers. Bolt can get rid of small guys and Tezzeret, but it can't hit MoE or Champ. Ancient Grudge can hit a lot of artifacts, but it can't answer Tezzeret or Champ, nor a 5/5 Darksteel.

EDIT: Sure, RUG can draw one specific answer at the right time, but I can overwhelm their demand for specific answers through redundancy. They can have Force of Will to counter Etched Champion. Cool, do they have another Force next turn when I cast my 2nd Champ? Another good thing going for Affinity is that RUG has no form of card advantage, unless you count Ancient Grudge. Affinity runs Thoughtcast to refill gas. As long as Affinity maintains a steady flow of pressure, RUG will inevitably run out of answers.

I agree with you here. I normally find playing against RUG a chore but with Affinity we can just blow them out by reloading with Thoughtcast after they expend their hand on our threats, many of which they MUST counter or they lose. Force of Will 2-for-1íng them is great for us.

F8iscruel

11-18-2013, 07:12 PM

Is that a 64 card MD or am I just miscounting? 28 creatures + 3 planeswalkers + 16 spells + 17 lands

Regardless, grats on your finish.

Good job on the 10-5! 140th is pretty decent when you take into account the attendance size being ~1700. You did Affinity proud.

Your MD looks nice. I'm a fan of streamlined MDs for Affinity, without any of those nonsense 1 or 2-ofs that many subpar Affinity lists run. Ever since Drew Levin's Affinity introduction piece, I've started to agree that having 25 mana sources is the way to go if you want to reliably cast bombs such as Etched Champion or Tezz. For the last two weeks, all of my goldfish testing has been focused on determining which card should be my 25th mana source, and I was literally trying out a hundred games each testing either Glimmervoid, Lotus Petal or Paradise Mantle. I started trying out Glimmervoid when I noticed a lot of mulligan-able hands with Mantle in it, however, I just couldn't stand Glimmervoid due to the fact it became utterly useless when I hit my mana threshold. I just played in a 30-man local over the weekend with Paradise Mantle, and I didn't run into any mulligan problems, so I'll probably stick to playing Mantle, since I also play Stoneforge Mystic which can grab Mantle in uncommon situations.

Do you have any insights to share regarding your wins/losses? What cards worked for you in the SB? What was your SB strategy against certain matchups; what cards did you take out and put in post-board?

My mistake I quoted someone elses post to see how to format cards being that it was my first post on the forum. lol
remove the 4 frogmite from the deck.

I agree with the streamlined affinity list, I think that certain cards have proved to me to be very useless in the deck either from theorizing or from actual playtesting, such as tangle wire being almost unplayable because of how you want the deck to run.
Drew Levine's article was very well thought out and solidified some of the ideas I had been bumping around with for quite some time.

your opponents can counter your mantle and kill the creature that it becomes equip 2, despite the fact that the deck is low curve it still has to be very efficient with it's mana post board and also a little bit in the main. The only mana decision I have been mulling over is whether I should shave an ancient den for a great furnace to add an additional red source for SB whipflares

as far as Side boarding is concerned anything with delver next to it I brought in 4x Chalice and -4 Pest, RUG delver I cut down on Memnite to bring in 2 RiP as well, towards the end of day 2 I began trying out whipflare as well to shave all memnites from the mainboard.

against goblins (and in extension though I never faced it Death and Taxes) I bring in 2 Whipflare
Jund I bring in Rest in Peace and cut memnites the best card in the matchup is champion the opponent literally cannot touch the card. cut memnites
I side boarded incorrectly against Sam Black as in G1 I did not see noble hierarch only brainstorm and I think swords to plowshares so I only brought in 2 chalice and I also brought in RiP and Bridge after seeing True Name and KotR, Thankfully I only saw Chalice and was able to win the match swiftly 2-0 later that day I Sideboarded correctly and brought in 4 Chalice and whipflare cutting 4 pest and 2 memnite.

Storm is -4 champion -3 Tezz -4 Signal Pest +4 Chalice +3 Canonist +3 Rip +1 Whippflare and that could even be 2 whipflare if it is TES since they traditionally win off of empty over tendrils

GY based decks (Dredge, Loam, Pox) I just bring in 3 RiP and cut down on Memnites or Signal Pest. unless it is dredge then I cut Etched Champion

Elves I bring in the same Package as storm but not RiP and 2 Whipflare, and some number of ensnaring bridge (I think I brought in 2 against it) they have 2G Vindicate that is repeatable though and I think that cursed totem is worth it if you expect a lot of elves but its a nonbo with ravager and that card won me a lot of games.

Shardless bug I just bring in RiP, etched champion is king here just like jund but harder to make stick.

Miracles is a scary matchup and you usually have to be on the play to have a chance in the older list I ran, chalice comes in here and so does ensnaring bridge because of the number of dead cards, etched champion comes out along with pest because the only have a few creatures + entreat so he's not really doing much work and all their dudes fly.

Whipflare was awesome.

Rest in Peace was a nice safety net and a card I love playing in affinity the other GY spells are not as good, though if you expect elves playing a 1 of grafdiggers is fine imo.

I wish there was a better card than ethersworn cannonist in the SB, it is only good in 1 type of match up and even then its still not impressive, just another necessity.

Chalice of the Void is above and beyond amazing, it turns off effectively half the format and allows you to play magic while your opponent dies. it requires some sequencing to make sure it goes well as well as reading your opponent to make sure you don't play it into soft counters (can't play around hard ones)

Ensnaring Bridge was a last minute call in order to sure up the Sneak and Show Match-up it was the right call but I both A) only played S&S once and B) never drew it in that match up. it did allow for me to remove chaff cards for games 2 and 3 since they become useless in certain match ups (see etched champion and memnite)

I do not think you can Maindeck chalice, you can't play it blind on 1 and you want to run as smoothly as possible in order to close it out early, Games 2 and 3 don't have to be as quick because the jig is up and you need to be able to play against what they have for you (which is awesome in legacy because it ain't much)

people are terrified of ravager, if they can, they will counter it. It brings me back to sequencing, playing a ravager on turn 1 (either through the multiple dudes into ravager of opals and drums or just off of a tomb) or playing it before a plating or tezzeret. Playing it before other high impact spells is awesome because it lets you know what your opponent has. a lot of control players have a habit of speaking differently than non-control players, saying words like "resolves" instead of "ok" but that is not a causality and does not imply every one of them will speak the same, just read your opponent and try to surmise what they have in hand.

I was able to successfully play ravagers into counter spells in order to ensure plating resolving, to be fair ravager is almost like plating 5-8 but it's worse merely because they can kill it.

The best part about this deck is the amount of noticeable skill it takes to pilot correctly. this deck has infinity more under the hood than the surface would presume and I'm happy to have done moderately well with it.

Hope that helps :)

also, People were not in the mood to counter thoughtcast, whether they didn't want to or thought that the cards i drew after wards could be countered is beyond me, but 1 mana draw 2 is pretty damn good and I would counter it if I could.

Shawon

11-18-2013, 08:18 PM

as far as Side boarding is concerned anything with delver next to it I brought in 4x Chalice and -4 Pest, RUG delver I cut down on Memnite to bring in 2 RiP as well, towards the end of day 2 I began trying out whipflare as well to shave all memnites from the mainboard.

I don't particularly agree with cutting Memnites against tempo decks, seeing as how Memnite + Thopter indirectly count as part of your manabase, and I don't like the prospect of weakening your mana consistency against tempo decks. But I can see why you did it against RUG to reduce less dead draws, considering that's what I used to against RUG, so if it worked out for you in your two wins, then keep at it. I haven't tried cutting Memnites since Deed decks were in vogue, but I might revisit cutting mana/Kobolds as a sideboard strategy against grindier fair decks.

Storm is -4 champion -3 Tezz -4 Signal Pest +4 Chalice +3 Canonist +3 Rip +1 Whippflare and that could even be 2 whipflare if it is TES since they traditionally win off of empty over tendrils

How did your actual match against Storm go? I think adding Whipflare is overkill, because your whole game plan is to prevent Storm from going off, and you're only running a 2-of that's only useful in one game state where they take a gamble and ETW on turn 1. You're already removing a 10+ cards from your offense to hedge your Storm matchup, keep in mind you also need a way to win if you do happen to roadblock Storm.

Miracles is a scary matchup and you usually have to be on the play to have a chance in the older list I ran, chalice comes in here and so does ensnaring bridge because of the number of dead cards, etched champion comes out along with pest because the only have a few creatures + entreat so he's not really doing much work and all their dudes fly.

Why would you take out Etched Champions against Miracles? Your point on taking him out leads me to believe you think Etched Champion is used for defensive purposes, when in fact, he should be deployed as one of your scariest, must-counter threats.

Rest in Peace was a nice safety net and a card I love playing in affinity the other GY spells are not as good, though if you expect elves playing a 1 of grafdiggers is fine imo.

While Rest in Peace doesn't conflict with Chalice@1 like Relic/Cage would, I'm still skeptical as to how anyone could consider Rest in Peace to be an acceptable answer versus dedicated gy decks, as in Reanimator, not Loam. It's 1W, so you can't naturally cast it (let alone have backup against Daze effects) off of Ancient Tomb, and it's 2 mana, so if you plan on casting it turn 2, it might already be too late against Reanimator.

I noticed in most of your matchups your sideboarding usually involves cutting Signal Pest. Why keeping running him if he's going to be a dead card in a lot of matchups? He dies in an embarassing fashion to Baleful Strix & Vendilion Clique, makes Jitte counters much more brutal, conflicts with your Chalice@1, makes RUG's Rough / Tumble more of a blowout... the list goes on. I came to this conclusion at the last minute before a GPT, and I cut the Pests for SFM + Batterskull (made top 4 btw). I haven't looked back since.

Ensnaring Bridge was a last minute call in order to sure up the Sneak and Show Match-up it was the right call but I both A) only played S&S once and B) never drew it in that match up. it did allow for me to remove chaff cards for games 2 and 3 since they become useless in certain match ups (see etched champion and memnite)

Ensnaring Bridge seems like a good idea. I've always known about it, but I never bit the bullet and tried it against Sneak-Show because I thought it was too narrow against one matchup, but it's something I might consider testing against Elves. You are right that Elves can answer Bridge with Viridian Shaman, but Ensnaring Bridge does some time and could allow for a strategy of just sitting on Bridge and trying to drain your opponent with Tezz's ultimate.

I do not think you can Maindeck chalice, you can't play it blind on 1 and you want to run as smoothly as possible in order to close it out early, Games 2 and 3 don't have to be as quick because the jig is up and you need to be able to play against what they have for you (which is awesome in legacy because it ain't much)

I think MDing 'tech' cards like Chalice/Revoker/Canonist is a short-sighted decision. Sure, it may randomly steal game 1s from combo, but you might also lose winnable games against fair decks that could've been won if you just went all the way aggro.

The best part about this deck is the amount of noticeable skill it takes to pilot correctly. this deck has infinity more under the hood than the surface would presume and I'm happy to have done moderately well with it.

I definitely agree. Keep on playing Affinity!

F8iscruel

11-19-2013, 01:47 AM

I don't particularly agree with cutting Memnites against tempo decks, seeing as how Memnite + Thopter indirectly count as part of your manabase, and I don't like the prospect of weakening your mana consistency against tempo decks. But I can see why you did it against RUG to reduce less dead draws, considering that's what I used to against RUG, so if it worked out for you in your two wins, then keep at it. I haven't tried cutting Memnites since Deed decks were in vogue, but I might revisit cutting mana/Kobolds as a sideboard strategy against grindier fair decks.

How did your actual match against Storm go? I think adding Whipflare is overkill, because your whole game plan is to prevent Storm from going off, and you're only running a 2-of that's only useful in one game state where they take a gamble and ETW on turn 1. You're already removing a 10+ cards from your offense to hedge your Storm matchup, keep in mind you also need a way to win if you do happen to roadblock Storm.

Why would you take out Etched Champions against Miracles? Your point on taking him out leads me to believe you think Etched Champion is used for defensive purposes, when in fact, he should be deployed as one of your scariest, must-counter threats.

While Rest in Peace doesn't conflict with Chalice@1 like Relic/Cage would, I'm still skeptical as to how anyone could consider Rest in Peace to be an acceptable answer versus dedicated gy decks, as in Reanimator, not Loam. It's 1W, so you can't naturally cast it (let alone have backup against Daze effects) off of Ancient Tomb, and it's 2 mana, so if you plan on casting it turn 2, it might already be too late against Reanimator.

I noticed in most of your matchups your sideboarding usually involves cutting Signal Pest. Why keeping running him if he's going to be a dead card in a lot of matchups? He dies in an embarassing fashion to Baleful Strix & Vendilion Clique, makes Jitte counters much more brutal, conflicts with your Chalice@1, makes RUG's Rough / Tumble more of a blowout... the list goes on. I came to this conclusion at the last minute before a GPT, and I cut the Pests for SFM + Batterskull (made top 4 btw). I haven't looked back since.

Ensnaring Bridge seems like a good idea. I've always known about it, but I never bit the bullet and tried it against Sneak-Show because I thought it was too narrow against one matchup, but it's something I might consider testing against Elves. You are right that Elves can answer Bridge with Viridian Shaman, but Ensnaring Bridge does some time and could allow for a strategy of just sitting on Bridge and trying to drain your opponent with Tezz's ultimate.

I think MDing 'tech' cards like Chalice/Revoker/Canonist is a short-sighted decision. Sure, it may randomly steal game 1s from combo, but you might also lose winnable games against fair decks that could've been won if you just went all the way aggro.

I definitely agree. Keep on playing Affinity!

I own a playset of altered memnite (2 as finn and jake and 2 as random doodles), it is quite literally my favorite card, it is also the most useless card in the entire deck when you look at what rug delver brings to the table, but I still do enjoy having the card in order to help smooth draws. it is up to you on whether you want to shave the playset or just cut 2 but both worked for me.

the game against storm ended with 14 goblins in play a whipflare in my hand and no way to cast it *shrug* I would bring in the second one over the 3rd RiP because they rely on both PiF and Emtpy as MD win cons so being able to beat both of those and cut dead cards is relevant.

Etched champion is not an aggrssive card, he's a hill giant with protection, he is purely an attrition card in my mind and combo decks and control decks that you can't interact with you don't need a 3 mana 2/2 that just gets wrathed or terminused off the board. i would rather spend 0 mana on a 1/1 then 3 mana on a 2/2

RiP is the best GY spell not close, the deck runs 13 sources of white mana and has the ability to cast it t1, against dredge we do not 100% need it on t1 and it is fine to play it t2, reanimator i will agree with is rough, and I did consider cage in the SB over a RiP to run a 1/2 split. but that is just preference.

Signal Pest is still one of the best cards in that it helps you run well and is better than some dead card in the deck, it makes your "kobolds" relevant and pressures the board, a lot of match-ups its just an innocuous 0/1 lord effect, in other match-ups it is a card I know I can take out to chalice my opponent, + when you have 2 of them in play the damage output is disgustingly good.

The best part of Bridge is that you can attack through it with thopters and pests, the general power of a creature in our deck is 1 so it's not hard to get bridge to be valuable.

:)

Shawon

11-19-2013, 10:08 AM

Etched champion is not an aggrssive card, he's a hill giant with protection, he is purely an attrition card in my mind and combo decks and control decks that you can't interact with you don't need a 3 mana 2/2 that just gets wrathed or terminused off the board. i would rather spend 0 mana on a 1/1 then 3 mana on a 2/2

A 'hill giant with protection?' You can say the same thing about True-Name Nemesis. Both TNN and Etched Champion are cards no control decks ever want to see, Terminus or not, because they limit interaction with their removal without hindering your interactions with Equipment.

Also, don't you run Ravager? You can easily make Etched Champion bigger than a 2/2 if you want to apply more pressure.

The key to beating Miracles is to play your threats conservatively and forcing them to cast Terminus, all the while sticking important cards down on the battlefield, say Cranial Plating or Tezzeret. Resolving Cranial Plating is doable since you can cast it on turn 1, or if you're like me, you can resolve it safely through Stoneforge Mystic's activated ability. Resolving Tezzeret takes patience because you want to make sure you cast everything else first. You don't want to walk into a Spell Pierce, and because Tezzeret is your absolute best card against Miracles since it disregards Energy Field, you desperately want your Tezz to resolve no matter what. Once you resolve Tezz, it's pretty hard to lose since all of Tezzeret's abilities are useful against Miracles.

RiP is the best GY spell not close, the deck runs 13 sources of white mana and has the ability to cast it t1, against dredge we do not 100% need it on t1 and it is fine to play it t2, reanimator i will agree with is rough, and I did consider cage in the SB over a RiP to run a 1/2 split. but that is just preference.

If I'm certain there is no Reanimator in my meta, then I see no point in running graveyard hate period (unless I know Storm = only ANT). LED Dredge might warrant gy-hate, but I've found Manaless Dredge really easy to beat without graveyard hate.

Signal Pest is still one of the best cards in that it helps you run well and is better than some dead card in the deck, it makes your "kobolds" relevant and pressures the board, a lot of match-ups its just an innocuous 0/1 lord effect, in other match-ups it is a card I know I can take out to chalice my opponent, + when you have 2 of them in play the damage output is disgustingly good.

The best part of Bridge is that you can attack through it with thopters and pests, the general power of a creature in our deck is 1 so it's not hard to get bridge to be valuable.

I kind myself falling in and out of love with Signal Pest, and I'm currently hating it again. The damage output is pretty good when you are left unchecked... but if your opponent has ways to interact with you, say through any of the means I listed in my earlier post, then Signal Pest just becomes depressingly bad. You make a good point about Bridge, though.

F8iscruel

11-19-2013, 11:56 AM

A 'hill giant with protection?' You can say the same thing about True-Name Nemesis. Both TNN and Etched Champion are cards no control decks ever want to see, Terminus or not, because they limit interaction with their removal without hindering your interactions with Equipment.

Also, don't you run Ravager? You can easily make Etched Champion bigger than a 2/2 if you want to apply more pressure.

The key to beating Miracles is to play your threats conservatively and forcing them to cast Terminus, all the while sticking important cards down on the battlefield, say Cranial Plating or Tezzeret. Resolving Cranial Plating is doable since you can cast it on turn 1, or if you're like me, you can resolve it safely through Stoneforge Mystic's activated ability. Resolving Tezzeret takes patience because you want to make sure you cast everything else first. You don't want to walk into a Spell Pierce, and because Tezzeret is your absolute best card against Miracles since it disregards Energy Field, you desperately want your Tezz to resolve no matter what. Once you resolve Tezz, it's pretty hard to lose since all of Tezzeret's abilities are useful against Miracles.

If I'm certain there is no Reanimator in my meta, then I see no point in running graveyard hate period (unless I know Storm = only ANT). LED Dredge might warrant gy-hate, but I've found Manaless Dredge really easy to beat without graveyard hate.

I kind myself falling in and out of love with Signal Pest, and I'm currently hating it again. The damage output is pretty good when you are left unchecked... but if your opponent has ways to interact with you, say through any of the means I listed in my earlier post, then Signal Pest just becomes depressingly bad. You make a good point about Bridge, though.

RiP comes in against non reanimator/dredge decks, Jund, Shardless, Rug Delver, Aggro Loam, Lands, all of those decks utilize the graveyard, and while the cards I take out are different from match to match I will always want Rips against these decks.

Etched Champion does 0 things against miracles. for 3 mana you get a 2/2 that you spent 3 mana on, they have a low creature count and I would rather go under them, they also bring in ensnaring bridge out of the board which does little against an army of 0/x and 1/x creatures. cranial plating and tezz are great in the match up and so is ravager but im not going to keep playing etched champion because it makes my ravager better when it is already good on its own and champion isn't pulling his weight.

trust me I keep in champion in numerous match-ups where I need to get through creatures or attrition the game down with an unstoppable threat (for the most part) RUG, Shardless, Jund, D&T, Goblins, any deck that has creatures and that I need to get through. but he is not worth the investment in miracles especially when they can just get rid of him with little easy with their 4+ "wrath" effects.

Also Ravaging an Etched champion is not something I am going to do unless I absolutely have to or if the ravager get's removed, or if it will win the game and i know my opponent can't interfere with it happening, otherwise I am not just going to invest time and permanents into an unsure thing.

also a semantics thing but True-name nemesis can never be a hill giant, he has more base power :)

Shawon

11-19-2013, 12:24 PM

Etched Champion does 0 things against miracles. for 3 mana you get a 2/2 that you spent 3 mana on, they have a low creature count and I would rather go under them, they also bring in ensnaring bridge out of the board which does little against an army of 0/x and 1/x creatures. cranial plating and tezz are great in the match up and so is ravager but im not going to keep playing etched champion because it makes my ravager better when it is already good on its own and champion isn't pulling his weight.

I still don't know why you think Etched Champion is useless against Miracles. If you have a resolved Champion with a Plating attached to it, they can Entreat for X = 12340, and all of those Angels still wouldn't be able to prevent you from attacking for lethal next turn. Nor can they rely on Snapcaster Mage to chump block and rebuy any STPs. They have few outs against Etched Champion. If they use what's likely to be their 2nd Terminus on a lone Champion, that is good news, because you can just reset your offense with more creatures you drew, or cast Tezzeret.

Etched Champion is most definitely not irrelevant against Miracles. If you land a Champ + Plating, they have to find (another) Terminus within 1-2 turns. This is another reason why I run Stoneforge Mystic. It increases your threat density by finding Platings (or Batterskull), and it can ignore the Miracles player's countermagic with its activated ability.

Cutting creatures against Miracles doesn't work like it would against RUG or other fair decks, because those other decks have adaptable roles. Miracles only has one role in this matchup: control. Trying to beat Miracles by out-controlling them is counterintuitive, because Affinity isn't built to play like control at all. It's easier and more effective to simply remain as the aggro deck. By cutting creatures, you make your deck less aggressive and thus worse, specifically because you are making Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager much less relevant since you have less interactions on the board.

Dwell

11-20-2013, 11:09 AM

What are your thoughts on running pithing needle in the side?

I was thinking of running something like this on the weekend

Creatures
4 Ravager
2 Etched Champion
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge

Spells
4 Thought Cast
3 Dispatch

Artifacts
4 Mox Opal
4 plating
4 Springleaf Drum

3 Tezzeret

Land
4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
1 DarkSteel Citadel
1 GlimmerVoid

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 RiP

Shawon

11-20-2013, 09:28 PM

What are your thoughts on running pithing needle in the side?

I was thinking of running something like this on the weekend

- List -

Welcome to The Source, Dwell. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, including what I think about Pithing Needle; however, I highly recommend you elaborate on your own thoughts if you want to engage in healthy and productive discussion. For example, could you explain what experiences or thought processes lead you to question if Pithing Needle is good in the SB? Also, when you post a decklist, you might want to preemptively talk about card choices if you know people are going to ask questions about them, such as the 2/2 split between Vault of Whispers and Darksteel Citadel, or 3 MD Dispatch.

Re: Pithing Needle, I think it has lot of merit as a SB card, but I doubt its overall usefulness compared to Phyrexian Revoker. Phyrexian Revoker can shut down many of the same cards that Pithing Needle can shut down in certain matchups, such as Sneak Attack. However, Phyrexian Revoker can shut down cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, a critical component of Storm decks, and Pithing Needle can't.

F8iscruel

11-21-2013, 04:50 PM

Welcome to The Source, Dwell. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, including what I think about Pithing Needle; however, I highly recommend you elaborate on your own thoughts if you want to engage in healthy and productive discussion. For example, could you explain what experiences or thought processes lead you to question if Pithing Needle is good in the SB? Also, when you post a decklist, you might want to preemptively talk about card choices if you know people are going to ask questions about them, such as the 2/2 split between Vault of Whispers and Darksteel Citadel, or 3 MD Dispatch.

Re: Pithing Needle, I think it has lot of merit as a SB card, but I doubt its overall usefulness compared to Phyrexian Revoker. Phyrexian Revoker can shut down many of the same cards that Pithing Needle can shut down in certain matchups, such as Sneak Attack. However, Phyrexian Revoker can shut down cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, a critical component of Storm decks, and Pithing Needle can't.

Another note is that it needle is a nonbo with chalice as well. if you are worried about sneak attack I would play ensnaring bridge, if you want to hedge agaisnt multiple match ups i would play revoker, although one of the match ups where you want needle is in D&T to shut off jitte which does in fact beat you thoroughly and chalice does nothing in that match up so needle is better there.

all in all needle isn't that great and does not go well with chalice in certain matchups, I would rather see you play revoker as well

:)

jseed

11-22-2013, 02:54 AM

So I've recently just been getting back into Magic I saw Drew Levin's article, and man do I love affinity so here I am. I also recommend this article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-grand-prix-antwerp-14th-with-affinity/) by Frank Karsten. I know it's modern so much of what he says isn't true of the legacy format, but I think his general thoughts on the deck are useful since the engine of the deck very much carries over.

I've been testing Levin's Turbo Affinity list so here are some of my thoughts thus far:

Ancient Tomb is incredible. I would not run less than 4 having tried them now.
I'm pretty sure 17 lands is correct based on my testing, though I reserve the right to change this one later.
Tezzeret is soooo good, but some games he can be quite difficult to cast. Need him to have any hope against miracles though. He's also the only card I really worry about spell pierce on.
I agree with his sideboarding philosophy though not necessarily his sideboard. IE sideboard cards should be absolute bombs and dramatically tilt the game when they resolve.
I'll probably change his 3 mindbreak trap in the sideboard to whipflare. I'm slightly concerned about not having red mana to cast them. Also, having no sideboard cards for sneak and show is rough.
Considering shaving 1-2 memnites and maybe 1 thoughtcast (blasphemy I know) for something like master of etherium. I really just want higher bomb density in the mid to late game. Really curious on other people's thoughts on this.

As far as pithing needle vs revoker, I'm not really sure I would play either. As I said above I really want my sideboard cards to have a big impact on the matchup they are intended for. It's nice when your bomb sideboard cards also happen to be serviceable in other matchups, but I don't think the main mentality of affinity should be serviceable, it should be blow you out. Like naming sneak attack is alright, but if revoker/needle is your plan for the matchup, you're going to be pretty sad when they just cast show and tell. Similarly naming LED vs storm is pretty bad vs a hand full of rituals. So like Shawon said what's the target? If it turns out naming jitte vs DnT is that big a deal (I haven't tested this enough) then sure, but if needle/revoker is just undirected hedging I don't think it will buy you enough in your bad match ups to be worth the sideboard slots.

Shawon

11-22-2013, 05:24 PM

Considering shaving 1-2 memnites and maybe 1 thoughtcast (blasphemy I know) for something like master of etherium. I really just want higher bomb density in the mid to late game. Really curious on other people's thoughts on this.

Don't cut Memnites from the MD. You can cut them post-board between games, but if you cut them MD, then you make all of your other cards worse, like Mox Opal, Ravager, Thoughtcast. You want to see hands like "Artifact Land, Mox Opal, Memnite" often.

If you want to improve your threat density, do what I did and cut Signal Pests for Stoneforge Mystics. You have more consistency in having Cranial Plating on hand, and if you include Batterskull, you have the option of forcing your opponent to use removal on SFM, or punishing them for not having removal. Also, with the Ancient Tomb manabase, casting Batterskull for :5: is a doable task.

Final Fortune

11-22-2013, 06:26 PM

Cranial Plating aside, I think the less considered but more important aspect of Stoneforge Mystic is Paradise Mantle accelerating the deck into Tezzeret, that has really won me more than my fair share of games.

Shawon

11-22-2013, 06:27 PM

jseed

11-22-2013, 07:32 PM

I definitely agree that there is a delicate balance between having enough engine type cards and bomb threats. I feel like I can get away with cutting one memnite from the main, but it is not something I will do lightly or without more testing.

I actually like signal pest in the main, the few points he chips in are relevant and being a cheap one mana artifact helps the deck run smoothly. Not to mention his psuedo flying when he picks up plating. I'm not in love with him but I think he plays an important role right now.

On the other hand I really think SFM is not good in this deck. He's slower, clunkier, and less powerful then tezz. A hand where sfm is my only threat is an auto mulligan I think. Batterskull doesn't seem to fix any real problems. I'm the beatdown almost always so my life total doesn't matter. Unless it's combo in which case the skull is way too slow. I think the best thing you can do is get a plating which means five total mana to get it equipped. Master is three and also provides a body with toughness and glorious anthem. Lastly, sfm is not an artifact so he can't do things like turn on metalcraft, affinity, feed ravager, or take modular counters. I'm already playing twelve non artifacts when I would prefer only like eight, sixteen is definitely not where I want to be. Really I just think there's a reason sfm only sees play in midrange to control type decks.

Shawon

11-22-2013, 08:37 PM

I actually like signal pest in the main, the few points he chips in are relevant and being a cheap one mana artifact helps the deck run smoothly. Not to mention his psuedo flying when he picks up plating. I'm not in love with him but I think he plays an important role right now.

Signal Pest is explosive, but it makes the deck more fragile against fair decks that are prepared to interact with you. It only makes the deck better when it wins. It has really bad lategame value, and there are lots of cards Legacy decks run that incidentally make Signal Pest bad (Baleful Strix, Vendilion Clique, Grim Lavamancer).

On the other hand I really think SFM is not good in this deck. He's slower, clunkier, and less powerful then tezz. A hand where sfm is my only threat is an auto mulligan I think. Batterskull doesn't seem to fix any real problems. I'm the beatdown almost always so my life total doesn't matter. Unless it's combo in which case the skull is way too slow. I think the best thing you can do is get a plating which means five total mana to get it equipped. Master is three and also provides a body with toughness and glorious anthem. Lastly, sfm is not an artifact so he can't do things like turn on metalcraft, affinity, feed ravager, or take modular counters. I'm already playing twelve non artifacts when I would prefer only like eight, sixteen is definitely not where I want to be. Really I just think there's a reason sfm only sees play in midrange to control type decks.

Don't knock it until you try it.

He's faster than Tezz because it's cheaper. However, I'm talking about SFM replacing Pest, not Tezz. It is slower than Pest, but it adds way more resilience to the deck.

Batterskull does fix problems. The deck loses a lot of life from Vault Skirge and Ancient Tomb, if you haven't noticed. Finding Skull with SFM forces your opponent to deal with SFM immediately, and this is a good strategy to use if you already have Plating in your hand, because they're in a damned-if-you-do situation and you always have an option whether they choose to interact with SFM or not.

I would agree with you about SFM being clunkier if all you're doing is fetching Cranial Plating. However, if you have other options (Batterskull, Paradise Mantle, Umezawa's Jitte), SFM becomes a real roleplayer and skilltester card.

Below are my old posts regarding Stoneforge Mystic in Affinity a month into testing Affinity:

There's a big difference between one and two mana, so you can't compare THoughtcast to Stoneforge Mystic. Also, Affinity aggressively mulligans, given the deck runs 15-16 lands, even with 8 additional mana sources (Opal/Drum). Thoughtcast helps you recover lost card advantage from aggressive mulligans. Stoneforge Mystic won't help you there.

Stoneforge Mystic in Affinity is exactly winmore. It only helps you when you really need Plating, but in every situation when you need to swarm-aggro your opponent or you need to block your opponent to stop damage, it's terrible.

And this might not seem important, but being able to surprise your opponent isn't something to be ignored. I like having my opponent think "He probably doesn't have Plating, he would've already played it, I think it's safe to tap out..." and then topdeck Plating :)

More than that, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't actually address specific matchups. What matchups are you losing because you can't find Plating fast enough? Etched Champion is a 2/2 for 3 and it hardly seems fit in a fast deck, but it actually helps matchups such as Maverick or Stoneblade because they can't rely on blocking your attackers or using Swords and Snapcasting Swords to stop you, that's why it's in the deck.

I think the people who bring up Stoneforge Mystic neglect to ask themselves "Why would I run this over Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?" or "If I already run Tezzeret, why would I want to run Ancient Den over Darksteel Citadel?" That last question is pretty much what I asked myself when I was running Galvanic Blast, except with Great Furnace instead of Ancient Den, obviously.

It took me a LONG time to come around to Stoneforge Mystic. What helped convert me to that idea was not looking at Stoneforge Mystic as a replacement for Tezzeret, but a supplement to Tezzeret.

Michael Keller

11-22-2013, 08:40 PM

If I'm certain there is no Reanimator in my meta, then I see no point in running graveyard hate period (unless I know Storm = only ANT). LED Dredge might warrant gy-hate, but I've found Manaless Dredge really easy to beat without graveyard hate.

Unless of course you're playing against inexperienced Manaless players, as I am near-certain I've lost maybe one or two rounds in three years against Affinity playing Manaless.

Manaless has more threats that gum up the board as opposed to LED Dredge. Sure, Ravager handles Bridges. But the problem for Affinity becomes sacrificing board-density to make up for Bridge triggers. This creates discrepancies when attacking with Affinity, as the crack-back is generally more crushing - in addition to Dread Returns pipe-lining immediate combo finishes.

Contagion also creates issues in the early game depending on the list.

I just think you're way underestimating the match-up, here.

Shawon

11-22-2013, 09:04 PM

Oh, I definitely haven't faced anyone playing Manaless Dredge who's proficient with the deck as you are, Hollywood. You're probably right that I'm underestimating the matchup. However, I don't think I'm completely disadvantaged since I'm also a fast linear deck as well.

I'm aware of Contagion. That's actually another reason why I took out Signal Pest. I faced a Cloudpost player who likes to practice playing Manaless Dredge against before a tournament starts, and even though I won a game 1 against him, I did get hit with Contagion, so that probably did influence my decision that day to cut Pests for Mystics. Good choice, too, because I top4'd that tournament.

jseed

11-22-2013, 09:35 PM

He's faster than Tezz because it's cheaper. However, I'm talking about SFM replacing Pest, not Tezz. It is slower than Pest, but it adds way more resilience to the deck.

Batterskull does fix problems. The deck loses a lot of life from Vault Skirge and Ancient Tomb, if you haven't noticed. Finding Skull with SFM forces your opponent to deal with SFM immediately, and this is a good strategy to use if you already have Plating in your hand, because they're in a damned-if-you-do situation and you always have an option whether they choose to interact with SFM or not.

I would agree with you about SFM being clunkier if all you're doing is fetching Cranial Plating. However, if you have other options (Batterskull, Paradise Mantle, Umezawa's Jitte), SFM becomes a real roleplayer and skilltester card.

SFM+batterskull is slower than tezz. It costs 3W and essentially has double summoning sickness. If you cast SFM on T2 your batterskull isn't attacking until T4 while any other creature would have made an impact on T3. Even if you cast Tezz on T3 he activates twice by the time batterskull attacks, and hopefully you did something else on T2.

In many matchups the life loss just doesn't matter. Most of the time I lose the game when my opponent begins stabilizing regardless of my life. In G1 my goal is basically to always kill them by turn 4 or 5.

However, the utility of SFM is inarguable. What matchups do you think it's really helping you in though? I don't mind trying it out but, I feel like in your example if I could choose between SFM fetching batterskull or MoE, I would almost always rather have MoE. SFM dies to any burn spell, dismember, etc. while MoE will deal more damage when he attacks, attack a full turn sooner, and immediately pump my team.

Shawon

11-22-2013, 09:53 PM

SFM+batterskull is slower than tezz. It costs 3W and essentially has double summoning sickness. If you cast SFM on T2 your batterskull isn't attacking until T4 while any other creature would have made an impact on T3. Even if you cast Tezz on T3 he activates twice by the time batterskull attacks, and hopefully you did something else on T2.

I wasn't talking SFM + Batterskull is faster than Tezzeret. I was talking about SFM in general. If you're casting SFM on turn 1 with a Kobold in play, on turn 2, you can Vial in Plating - circumventing countermagic, one of the main reasons why SFM is good, I forgot to mention - and swing for 5-6 on turn 2. That's pretty fast damage, faster than what you could've done with Signal Pest, actually.

You can't just think about SFM + Batterskull when evaluating SFM. You have to think about SFM acting as Cranial Platings 5-8, a Tinker -> Batterskull, a Birds of Paradise, and possibly even a "Tap target Emrakul!" (Leonin Bola - BTW, Leonin Bola makes SFM a sick card to "Show" against Sneak-Show)

In many matchups the life loss just doesn't matter. Most of the time I lose the game when my opponent begins stabilizing regardless of my life. In G1 my goal is basically to always kill them by turn 4 or 5.

I mean, yeah the objective to win by turn 4, but that doesn't always happen. You need to be able to win if the game comes down to a stalemate/grind, and the lifeloss does matter sometimes if you're facing decks that use red spells as an alternate way of winning (see: RUG).

However, the utility SFM is inarguable. What matchups do you think it's really helping you in though? I don't mind trying it out. But, I feel like in your example if I could choose between SFM fetching batterskull or MoE, I would almost always rather have MoE. SFM dies to any burn spell, dismember, etc. while MoE will deal more damage when he attacks, attack a full turn sooner, and immediately pump my team.

RUG is a good example where SFM shines. It resolves your Platings so you can ignore their numerous countermagic, and if you already have a Plating in your hand, you can force them to use their Lightning Bolt on SFM instead of the flier you're inevitably going to attach Plating to. Cuz Batterskull.

Miracles is another. Again, you are resolving your Cranial Platings, and having access to Batterskull makes SFM a good card to play post-Terminus. It becomes easier to play your offense conservatively, whereas with Signal Pest, you're forced to go all-in if you want to make a dent on your opponent's life total.

SFM has ETB value, that's why it's better than Master. Also, it's cheaper, so you can actually take advantage of brutally fast openings with two mana on turn 1. Master of Etherium is clunky because sometimes you just don't have blue mana, and it's a huge mana sink for a robot that can easily be removed by spells cheaper than it (STP, Decay). I don't agree with everything Drew Levin's said about Affinity, but he said it better than I could when he considered MoE as "the classic winmore card."

jseed

11-23-2013, 01:35 AM

Can you post your list so I can test it out? RUG is one matchup where I think signal pest is probably better, but I guess I'll find out.

RUG is a good example where SFM shines. It resolves your Platings so you can ignore their numerous countermagic, and if you already have a Plating in your hand, you can force them to use their Lightning Bolt on SFM instead of the flier you're inevitably going to attach Plating to. Cuz Batterskull.

The only thing sfm dodges that plating doesn't is spell pierce. And if you're resolving SFM there's a good chance you could resolve MoE in which case they are just dead unless they have an ancient grudge. If they do have grudge sure having MoE sucks, essentially they are up a mana on you, but if you had batterskull instead you spent two turns instead of one and just ended up with a squire. Ideally you just hard cast a plating in this situation. Realistically that's all I ever want to do since plating is that good. Plating for four mana over two turns is just not the same.

Miracles is another. Again, you are resolving your Cranial Platings, and having access to Batterskull makes SFM a good card to play post-Terminus. It becomes easier to play your offense conservatively, whereas with Signal Pest, you're forced to go all-in if you want to make a dent on your opponent's life total.
It seems like batterskull would be good in this matchup, though they have two full turns to find an answer and they are probably spinning top. Signal pest is obviously miserable here. I think I would prefer Tezzert #4 first, and then I'm not sure what would be ideal after that. Every match I play against miracles feels super hard unless I just draw the nuts.

SFM has ETB value, that's why it's better than Master. Also, it's cheaper, so you can actually take advantage of brutally fast openings with two mana on turn 1. Master of Etherium is clunky because sometimes you just don't have blue mana, and it's a huge mana sink for a robot that can easily be removed by spells cheaper than it (STP, Decay). I don't agree with everything Drew Levin's said about Affinity, but he said it better than I could when he considered MoE as "the classic winmore card."
I think you're right and MoE is probably too slow and it does cost colored mana. SFM has the same problems though. It may have a good etb, but once it's there it's a 1/2 that's not even an artifact. SFM is so good in other decks because they have some ability to protect it and more interactive cards that allow them to do stuff other than just attack while they get their Batterskull online. Affinity just isn't built like that. 2WW for a 4/4 just seems worse than 2U for a 6/6+Anthem. If MoE is win more then SFM is win way more. Levin actually just says, if MoE isn't doing it for you then stoneforge is probably just worse, and steelshaper's gift is probably better than sfm anyway.

AggroSteve

11-23-2013, 05:32 AM

i have run affinity way back in the days when i started playing competitive magic

steelshapers gift is awefull, i know that for sure, also i did never really like signal pest in the deck either, but if you got 2 of them on the board its like a blowout as your aggropotential rises exponentialy with every pest you got

i believe that running pest allmost forces you to run MoE as well for the "lord effect",.... without one or the other both cards get worse because of consistency
if you are not running either SFM is a really good option for u, because it adds utility, consistency and synergy (plus SFM itself is a threat in affinity, just like every other creature with a plating attached)

stoneforge mystic is not exactly what i would like running in affinity, BUT SFM is in fact consistency and utility, which makes him quite a good catch in affinity there is no doubt about that, just imagine you having a lot of small dudes on the field, an empty hand, but plating nowhere to be found, in that case you will just lose the game

this is exactly the reason why SFM and also Ravager are good in affinity, because they add consistency, and legacy is all about consistency

just my 2 cents,... if someone thinks i am way of the track, just tell me

i for my part still prefer the red-splash over the whitesplash, but that would be a metadecision (whipflare is awesome IMO.... and still you get some ways to combat combo outside of ethersworn canonist
i have been tinkering with MD chalice and sideboard thorn of amethyst against combo, but Red Elemental blast would be another quite good card against combo, allways depending on which combo-decks you are facing the most

chalice + thorn is very strong against storm type of decks
REB does not like chalice , but it is very strong in the show and tell matchup i think, also against any deck that runs mainly blue (but i have to admit that i did not test REB yet, due to not having time to play at the moment)

tell my your thoughts on it :P

Final Fortune

11-23-2013, 08:00 AM

What's the point of all the weak one drop dorks and Affinity cards? I always thought the point of the deck was the scalable bombs? Shouldn't something like this be really playable right now in the Delver meta?

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Mox Opal
1 Paradise Mantle
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Cranial Plating
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Master of Etherium

Just drop game winning bomb after bomb until they run out of counters and removal.

Shawon

11-23-2013, 08:08 PM

Can you post your list so I can test it out? RUG is one matchup where I think signal pest is probably better, but I guess I'll find out.

My list is essentially the stock list, with my "17th land" as Paradise Mantle, and 4 Pest -> 3 SFM + Skull. The only reason you can say that Pest is better than SFM against RUG game 1 (you take out Pests for Chalice post-board, no use talking about games 2/3), is that you haven't played with SFM against RUG. Signal Pest is great when you're winning. SFM is even better when you're winning, since you can go for Batterskull if you already have Plating. When you're losing, SFM is miles better than Pest as a topdeck.

The only thing sfm dodges that plating doesn't is spell pierce. And if you're resolving SFM there's a good chance you could resolve MoE in which case they are just dead unless they have an ancient grudge. If they do have grudge sure having MoE sucks, essentially they are up a mana on you, but if you had batterskull instead you spent two turns instead of one and just ended up with a squire. Ideally you just hard cast a plating in this situation. Realistically that's all I ever want to do since plating is that good. Plating for four mana over two turns is just not the same.

"If you're resolving SFM, there's a good chance you could resolve MoE..." is blatantly false when you're talking about a deck that uses Daze and Wasteland...

You're right, paying four mana for Plating over two turns (or one) isn't better than topdecking Plating or opening with it. But it's better than having access to none, which is what can happen when your opponent tries to interact with your artifacts. I mean, you said in your posts you wanted to increase your threat density, and I'm recommending you a card that does that. Signal Pest isn't a bad card, but it's the card you want to cut for SFM because Tezzeret is a such a bomb against control and you need Ravager to make use of hands that only have artifact mana and dorks in them.

It seems like batterskull would be good in this matchup, though they have two full turns to find an answer and they are probably spinning top. Signal pest is obviously miserable here. I think I would prefer Tezzert #4 first, and then I'm not sure what would be ideal after that. Every match I play against miracles feels super hard unless I just draw the nuts.

And take 4? That's fine with me. You're also forgetting that Batterskull can restart itself. It's not unrealistic to spend turns bouncing Skull and replaying it if you and your Miracles are in topdeck mode.

Miracles isn't that hard. You have to play for resiliency and less for explosiveness. Play your creatures conservatively. Don't cast all of your Thopters/Memnites because you want to save them to activate Drums right away post-Terminus. Throw everything you have into counters or removal before casting Tezzeret, or cast Tezzeret if they're tapped out.

I think you're right and MoE is probably too slow and it does cost colored mana. SFM has the same problems though. It may have a good etb, but once it's there it's a 1/2 that's not even an artifact. SFM is so good in other decks because they have some ability to protect it and more interactive cards that allow them to do stuff other than just attack while they get their Batterskull online. Affinity just isn't built like that. 2WW for a 4/4 just seems worse than 2U for a 6/6+Anthem. If MoE is win more then SFM is win way more. Levin actually just says, if MoE isn't doing it for you then stoneforge is probably just worse, and steelshaper's gift is probably better than sfm anyway.

Dude, c'mon. Master of Etherium and Stoneforge Mystic are totally different cards; Affinity and Stoneblade are different decks. The roles SFM plays in either deck couldn't be more distinct.

Like I said, I don't agree with everything Drew Levin says about Affinity, and his analysis of SFM is where I think he's completely dead wrong. He clearly has never tried the card. I used to think SFM was garbage, mind you. My opinion changed when I tried a 1-of, and then as I played with it, I wanted more copies.

Don't knock the card until you're tried it.

Captain Hammer

11-25-2013, 03:29 AM

Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
2 Vault of Whispers
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Vault Skirge
2 Signal Pest
2 Arcbound Ravager
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum

Shawon

11-25-2013, 07:46 AM

F8iscruel

11-25-2013, 12:53 PM

AggroSteve

11-25-2013, 07:22 PM

i will give my opinion on this one as well

F8iscruel (somehow sad name, but true sometimes), made some good points

the diffenrence between the lists is manabase requirements, and the SFM vs Pest is trading raw power vs smooth draws

could not have said it better

allthough on the paradise mantle topic in the SFM lists i have to disagree with F8iscruel
paradise mantle adds to metalcraft, yes
paradise mantle is basically worse than any land/springleaf drum

but, paradise mantle in those lists does not take a slot of any other business spell, it takes a slot of a land
paradise mantle is only sometimes for ramping, but IMO rarely used for that purpose, but for manastability
paradise mantle is basically a tutorable land, which you might need sometimes to cast tezzeret, if you maybe miss your last mana to cast him, and do not need to fetch for anything like batterskull or plating

basically from this you can allready tell that paradise mantle is only good in specific matchups, namely the ones where you would want to be able to cast a tezzeret with ease, want to be able to hardcast a batterskull, or want to play around softcounters

if i got something wrong, please correct me, because i am not that used to playing affinity anymore, and i might have written something completely wrong

F8iscruel

11-25-2013, 09:24 PM

I think that tutoring for a land is just not that great.

I'm not a math person so I can't give exact mathematical precisions but I can do it with numbers and hopefully it makes sense.

60 cards in deck
3 cards are tezzeret
17 lands
4 Mox Opal (Mox Petal)
4 Drum
=
25 Mana sources
25/60 mana sources which is a little bit higher than 1/3 cards in the deck being a man source.
now to break it down further
4 Black Sources
4 Blue Sources
4 White Sources
9 Gold Sources

this is the "stock" list of affinity to date if people were to use levin's list as the stock affinity build.

this means that 13/60 cards tap for blue OR Black, that equates to roughly 1 in 6 cards.

now I know things like this are not set in stone "always have this card in X amount of time" but my point is that on average you should be able to cast your cards with little to no problem this is because

25 mana sources, 17 of which are lands
CMC of the deck breaks down as follow (bear in mind that i am treating vault skirge as a cmc 1 creature)
12 0 cmc spells (8 creatures)
12 1 cmc spells (8 creatures)
8 2 cmc spells (4 creatures)
4 3 cmc spells (4 creatures)
3 4cmc Spells (tezzeret)
4 5 cmc spells (thought cast, typically costs 1)

only 2 spells in the deck have a color requirement, and of those 2 spells only one requires a constrictive mana cost of UB2 while the other "Typically" costs just U, and I cannot do the math on having both U and B mana available to you in the deck, but it shouldn't come down to having to tutor for it.

the other problem that arises is that as I stated previously the fact that you cannot use it the turn it comes down, while not truly a crutch, makes it not a land, it does nothing on turn 1, uses a mana on turn 2, and on turn 3 its probably at its peak, and after that its just worse than a springleaf drum on a top deck (your opponent being able to kill the creature the equipment is targeting, not that they would but why give your opponent more opportunities to use spells and disrupt you?)

Sure it can't be wastelanded but I mean this deck actually runs pretty tight and I don't want to spend 1 mana to equip it to a creature to net a color that may or may not matter, when if I were to just naturally draw a land or a mana rock it would be the same thing. especially when if I drew a land where that card was I wouldn't have to worry about putting it on a creature and effectively taking that creature out of combat permanently if i am in need of that mana at any later point in the game.

the fact that you can tutor for it is just such a narrow argument to it's inclusion in a deck where the cmc is like 1.5 and only has 1 spell that actually is constricted on mana, and one other spell that has an actual color requirement (ignoring the BB ability on cranial plating because that is literal gravy).

I think that drawing a land as opposed to drawing a mantle is just better, and spending 2 mana to tutor a "land" seems like a waste of 2 mana when you can get things like plating, jitte, and b-skull with the card.

(once again I'm not a math person I am just making "guesstimations" on numbers please don't take that as a fault to my argument because my margin of error doesnt seem to be too bad, my grammar on the other hand...)

EDIT:

Levin's stock list with glimmervoid instead of tundra because DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH

Shawon

11-25-2013, 11:58 PM

I think that SFM is just as weak a card as signal pest in the affinity shell, batterskull isn't imposing and isn't particularly on gameplan. it also shoves the CMC of the deck up by a small fraction and constricts the mana base to support 3 colors main board as opposed to 2 one of which is a splash, after board sure I admit to spreading my colors thin for Side Board options against a vast array of decks. but what does stoneforge mystic do in the deck I'll compare them

The mana constriction problem you're positing is something you're simply imagining to be more of a problem than it is. If you really want to discuss the liability SFM has on the manabase, then you can't go on theorycrafting. Test it out and then tell me SFM mana screws the deck. It doesn't.

basically you are trading in the ability to make your weaker creatures actually matter, and SFM can't carry a plating as well as a signal pest, the individual power levels of the cards are not close but when you compare them to each other in the deck the Signal Pest is more cohesive to the deck,and yes both version of the deck have done well but I feel that the SFM version is just not as cohesive, you traded in smoother draws for raw power, and those rare chances where you get stranded with a batterskull in hand are going to happen, and the times where i draw a signal pest and just die are going to happen.

That's the evolution of the deck, my friend. Or was when midrange was more popular. I guess with tempo being back in vogue and TNN pushing out RUG or midrange, going back to explosive builds might be an option.

I don't really get stranded with Batterskull in hand. It only costs :5: if I am forced to hardcast it, but we're discussing its inclusion in a 25-mana source deck that includes 4 Ancient Tombs. The card is not Progenitus, bro.

My last note I want to make is that a 0 drop land with summoning sickness is just so much weaker than a land, you can't be afraid of wasteland, you just can't.
The mantle as a land is more like a springleaf drum that is 100x worse because it doesn't work on t1 which is very important, both are horrible topdecks, and if you are searching for a mantle off of an SFM then you are probably in a poor position to win that game as it stands. I would rather have 2 lands in hand then a card that is basically a land that adds to metalcraft since there are very few situations where you don't have metalcraft as it is.

All of the mana sources I've tried in that "17th land" slot, i.e. Glimmervoid; Paradise Mantle: Lotus Petal, all have their distinct ups and downs. None are strictly better than the other. Glimmervoid is utterly useless when you have already hit all of the colors you want and the quantity of mana you want; not to mention, it has a self-destruct clause. Lotus Petal is faster than either Glimmervoid or Paradise Mantle, but its perishable value can be limiting. I HATE using the "it's a matter of preference" argument when discussing cards, but I think it can be applied here because the differences between all of those cards are so small and minute.

SFM->Mantle is rarely the best play you want to make, but it does come up. Sometimes you need to cast Tezz and you don't have time to topdeck the right mana source to cast Tezz. Or you need one more artifact to kill your opponent with the Tezz ultimate and you don't have mana to cast SFM and Plating. Or you need Ravager or Plating to get even bigger to deal more damage. It happens in games. I went for a 10 point Infect Kill with SFM->Mantle to give my Ravager 9 counters to distribute to my Inkmoth.

Asmahasmalaria

12-03-2013, 11:32 AM

Hi there,

i am new to this forum and i wanted to check your thoughts on my affinity list. I am playing in a meta that seems to change all the time, but always has a high percentage of tempo and stoneblade decks.

Land/ Mana
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid
4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum

Meat
4 Vault Skirge
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
3 Signal Pest
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Etched Champion

Other
3 Cranial Plating
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manriki Gusari
2 Oblivion Ring

For the beginning I am interested in the following questions:

1) What do you think of the 2 chalice and the 3 signal pest in the same deck?

2) Whats your oppinion on cutting 4 thoughtcast and taking 4 thalia in instead?

3) Do you think it is a mistake not to play 4 cranial plating? the plan was to put them into play with sfm without paying 3 because of thalia. I am even considering playing just 2 but not sure.

4) Do you think Phyrexian Revoker and Manriki Gusari are good sb options for this deck? If not what would be better in your eyes?

5) I took in oblivion ring into the sb against show and tell or something like energy field (rest in pieces) or humility and so on. Do you think 2 are enough or should i take more? or do you think they do a bad job?

Ok that should be enough for now. Looking forward for oppinions ;-)

Shawon

12-03-2013, 12:15 PM

Welcome to The Source! Thanks for posting your decklist and providing your own thoughts. I'll be happy to answer your questions. If you read below, you will see that I have answered your questions in bold writing.

For the beginning I am interested in the following questions:

1) What do you think of the 2 chalice and the 3 signal pest in the same deck?

Don't run Chalice MD, or any hatebears MD like Revoker or Canonist. The small increase in your g1 against combo isn't worth the weakened power level of your deck when facing the decks you have a good chance of beating G1. MD Thalia may be an exception, though.

2) Whats your oppinion on cutting 4 thoughtcast and taking 4 thalia in instead?

If you insist on testing MD Thalia, you should find something to cut other than Thoughtcast. Thoughtcast is essential. Keep in mind under Thalia, you can still cast Thoughtcast for :u: if you control >=5 artifacts.

3) Do you think it is a mistake not to play 4 cranial plating? the plan was to put them into play with sfm without paying 3 because of thalia. I am even considering playing just 2 but not sure.

Even if you are fixed on Thalia, I still thinking playing less than 4 Cranial Plating is a mistake because you don't have any other cards that can substitute each Plating's raw power that isn't cheaper (see Tezz).

4) Do you think Phyrexian Revoker and Manriki Gusari are good sb options for this deck? If not what would be better in your eyes?

I think Revoker/Needle might be considerable options, more so now because of TNN decks trying to win you over with a guaranteed Jitte hit. I think Manriki is cool with SFM, but you have to consider the worst scenarios where they already have Jitte online. In those scenarios, Gusari doesn't do much if they can respond to your Equip with Jitte counters. If you want to seriously address Jitte, you might want to consider Revoker/Needle.

5) I took in oblivion ring into the sb against show and tell or something like energy field (rest in pieces) or humility and so on. Do you think 2 are enough or should i take more? or do you think they do a bad job?

O-Ring is solid. It also removes Reanimated fatties should you fail to find graveyard hate against Reanimator. However, against Sneak-Show, it only attacks one angle effectively, which is the S&T play. It's not a good answer to Sneak Attack. You do run Revoker to handle Sneak Attack, but it's bad against S&T. Having a variety of cards that only have one singular use against S&S in a linear aggro deck may subject you to variance if you draw the right answer to the wrong card, say Revoker and they S&T->Emrakul. :cry:

Asmahasmalaria

12-04-2013, 04:40 AM

Thanks for your thoughts on my list.
I think i will change my list as following:

Maindeck
-2 Chalice of the void
+1 Signal Pest
+1 Springleaf Drum

Sideboard
- 2 Phyrexian Revoker
+ 2 Chalice of the void

1) I get your point. So i am going to a signal pest for chalice boarding option.

2) I tried out thoughtcast but i think the requirement of 5 artifacts for cc U is too much. Especially when your lands get wastelanded or your creatures bolted i see too much risk together with thalia, ancient tomb and glimmervoid. Besides its even if castable for U just a cardadvantage of 1. So SfM and Tezzeret will have to be enough for cardadvantage for my list

3) You are right about cranial plating beeing the best card for the given mana cost. But i also run 4 SfM which makes my list have 7 virtual platings. But 2 will be too less i think.

4) When i added revoker i thought more of things like pernicous deed or engineered explosives. Against combo decks it can hit the LED too. For the TNN Matchup i wanted to take in the engineered plague, which should do fine against TNN and can also be used against delver, although its just -1/-1 if it already flipped. If you are facing a patriot deck hitting delver means also hitting grim lavamancer. The devastating effect for goblins, elves and merfolk not to mention. On the other hand with the possibility of casting SfM on turn 1 i should regularly be faster with equiment on the table than the stoneblade player. The case in which he already has a jitte online i will answer with o-ring i think. But i have to admit not having this szenario in mind until now.

5) I get your point with the variety of threats and answers. This also lead me to cutting the revoker and relying on thalia and chalice against the cantrip, o-ring against emrakul und ethersworn canonist against omni show.

Shawon

12-04-2013, 11:12 PM

2) I tried out thoughtcast but i think the requirement of 5 artifacts for cc U is too much. Especially when your lands get wastelanded or your creatures bolted i see too much risk together with thalia, ancient tomb and glimmervoid. Besides its even if castable for U just a cardadvantage of 1. So SfM and Tezzeret will have to be enough for cardadvantage for my list

If you think Thoughtcast is too expensive, then why are you running Tezz? He's even worse with Thalia on your board. And Thalia is still a bad excuse to cut Thoughtcast, because Thoughtcast can be cast before Thalia and after if you have enough artifacts. It could help if you didn't cut the 4th Seat and 4th Vault, which completely baffles me. This isn't directed at you, but I've seen way too many lists posted here with less than 4 artifact lands of each appropriate color in their build, and it drives me NUTS. You, as in all of you guys running 3-of Seats, are making your deck weaker to include terrible lands (e.g. Glimmervoid) that don't do anything when you are already able to cast anything you want! It makes no sense unless you're terrified of extreme hate like Null Rod, and even that doesn't make sense because nobody plays Null Rod! [/rant]

3) You are right about cranial plating beeing the best card for the given mana cost. But i also run 4 SfM which makes my list have 7 virtual platings. But 2 will be too less i think.

Or you can take out MD Jitte. MD Jitte was only useful preceding the legend rule change because you can neutralize your opponent's Jitte or force them to neutralize yours. With the new change, it's a pretty worthless MD slot.

4) When i added revoker i thought more of things like pernicous deed or engineered explosives. Against combo decks it can hit the LED too. For the TNN Matchup i wanted to take in the engineered plague, which should do fine against TNN and can also be used against delver, although its just -1/-1 if it already flipped. If you are facing a patriot deck hitting delver means also hitting grim lavamancer. The devastating effect for goblins, elves and merfolk not to mention. On the other hand with the possibility of casting SfM on turn 1 i should regularly be faster with equiment on the table than the stoneblade player. The case in which he already has a jitte online i will answer with o-ring i think. But i have to admit not having this szenario in mind until now.

Plague doesn't answer Jitte itself, which is and has been the major problem with those type of decks, not hexproof guys like TNN or Geist.

I think I might take back what I said about MD Needle effects if TNN does end up warping the meta. Against TNN decks, Tezzeret isn't so great because you can't ramp it to 4 counters and expect to block all of your opponent's creatures if one of them is TNN, since it virtually can't be blocked. If TNN does end up warping the meta, I might try 3 MD Needles instead of 3 MD Tezz to hedge up my G1 against Blade/TNN decks. I prefer Needle over Revoker because I don't want my solution to Jitte be neutralized by creature removal.

Jankalicious

12-05-2013, 01:24 AM

Hi all. I ended up making day two with an affinity brew at the last legacy Grand Prix in Washington D.C. This was the first and only legacy event I have played in. I love the format and want to play more. Here is the list with some feedback from the event to follow.

4 signal pest
4 ornithopter
4 memnite
4 vault skirge
3 arcbound ravager
4 gitaxian probe
4 cranial plating
4 thoughtcast
4 tangle wire
2 tezzeret, agent of bolas
4 mox opal
3 springleaf drum
4 seat of synod
4 vault of whispers
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

Sb:
2 umezawa's jitte
2 toxic deluge
2 spell pierce
4 cabal therapy
3 etched champion
1 grafdigger's cage
1 nihil spellbomb

I ended up 7-2 on day one with one loss to an ad nauseam combo deck and another loss to red/white/blue delver. The highlights of the deck were rishadan port/wasteland/tangle wire. There were tons of games where the pressure followed up by resource denial seemed abusively strong. Moreso, wasteland and tangle wire. I could see getting rid of the rishadan ports even though they helped me with the win and in keeping sneak and show off one of their colors combined with wasteland. Tezzeret should have been upped to a 3 or 4 of. It was the card I wanted to draw the most of any. Gitaxian probe helped me, personally, a decent amount. I needed the hand knowledge to help with decisions plus it let me know when I could go all in at times. Against combo and control it had great synergy with cabal therapy. Arcbound Ravager was pretty damn good especially against dredge killing bridge from below. Should have been a 4 of.
Umezawa's jitte was amazing in all the dudes on dudes matches as well as etched champion. Toxic deluge was the MVP of the tournament which should be upped to a 3 of. It destroyed 2 elves matchups and 2 rug matchups. The card seems off and awkward in this deck, but I was mainly siding it in on the draw. Your opponents do not see it coming. There were two problems with the deck for me. 1. Once stabilized against, it can be difficult to push through if you don't have a tezzeret. 2. This deck can be very punishing when you mulligan. Mulliganing beyond 6 was too punishing considering the potential draws loaded with ornithopters and memnites. I guess the potential weak openings with the deck after mulliganing should be seriously considered when deciding to play this deck. I wanted to play chalice of the void in the sideboard, but I was not as familiar with what matchups the card helped against. Basically, I didn't want to get punished for my ignorance. I don't know enough of the format to give the best insight about what cards should be in there now, but if there are any updates I will post them.

Shawon

12-05-2013, 01:29 PM

Adding Waste + Port to accompany Tangle Wire is pretty innovative and it's something I never thought of, despite playing with The Wire. Bravo!

While I don't think Probe belongs in Affinity lists, I think you were smart to run them based on your admission of not knowing enough about the format. It makes more sense to me now when I see Probes in lists, because you're right, it does give you more information to decide if you want to go all-in. Arcbound Ravager is undoubtedly the most difficult card to use in the deck, and without information of your opponent's hand, it can be difficult to assess the game state and decide when to start feeding the beast. Over time, once you have enough experience with Affinity, you will be able to know how to respond with Ravager activations in different scenarios.

To address your concerns about the deck losing gas or having bad mulligans, the only solution to this is making the deck's creature base more robust... without cutting mana sources. You're running a total of 19 creatures, which is severely low. For example, I run 23 creatures, not including the 4 Inkmoth + 1 Batterskull I run, which virtually makes my creature count 28. Etched Champion should be MD, because you really want to win as much G1s against fair matchups as you can. Taking out Probes would be another way to go, since they become unnecessary once you become more confident with the deck. Having a more robust and consistent offense is what lead me to run Stoneforge Mystic, especially with Batterskull.

Asmahasmalaria

12-05-2013, 03:52 PM

If you think Thoughtcast is too expensive, then why are you running Tezz? He's even worse with Thalia on your board. And Thalia is still a bad excuse to cut Thoughtcast, because Thoughtcast can be cast before Thalia and after if you have enough artifacts. It could help if you didn't cut the 4th Seat and 4th Vault, which completely baffles me. This isn't directed at you, but I've seen way too many lists posted here with less than 4 artifact lands of each appropriate color in their build, and it drives me NUTS. You, as in all of you guys running 3-of Seats, are making your deck weaker to include terrible lands (e.g. Glimmervoid) that don't do anything when you are already able to cast anything you want! It makes no sense unless you're terrified of extreme hate like Null Rod, and even that doesn't make sense because nobody plays Null Rod!

I thought it over and decided to run 3 Thoughtcast now, cutting 1 springleaf drum (down to 3), 1 Etched Champion (same) and 1 Signal pest (same).
Furthermore i went to 4 Seat of the Synod and 2 Vault of Whispers. But with Glimmervoid i disagree. My personal feeling for a solid manabase with 3 colours and my experience tells me to fix it, especially because of white. I really want that white mana at turn 2. So i figured 13 white sources are better than 11. Its a trade - stability for power (less affinity-count), and it works in my eyes.

Plague doesn't answer Jitte itself, which is and has been the major problem with those type of decks, not hexproof guys like TNN or Geist.

I think I might take back what I said about MD Needle effects if TNN does end up warping the meta. Against TNN decks, Tezzeret isn't so great because you can't ramp it to 4 counters and expect to block all of your opponent's creatures if one of them is TNN, since it virtually can't be blocked. If TNN does end up warping the meta, I might try 3 MD Needles instead of 3 MD Tezz to hedge up my G1 against Blade/TNN decks. I prefer Needle over Revoker because I don't want my solution to Jitte be neutralized by creature removal.

I am not sure if this is really the point but if you see it like that i would take revokers instead of needles. Sure they can be handled way easier - but they do damage, they can carry equipment themselves, they can mute LEDs, target mana sources like deathrite shamans and be played although you play chalice in g2 and so on. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages in my eyes clearly. I agree with tezzeret beeing bad against TNN decks. Its just that i would take them out in g2 for plagues

CaptainTwiddle

12-05-2013, 06:34 PM

So, I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere in the 70+ pages of this thread, but I've just been wondering whether Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is really what the Affinity deck wants. I understand that he basically goes +1, then "I win" the next turn, but it just seems like he's the only card that really taxes the manabase at all and he seems a bit slow. I'm just wondering if running additional, redundant creatures would be better, or perhaps Steelshaper's Gift as additional virtual Cranial Platings.

luckme10

12-05-2013, 07:29 PM

AggroSteve

12-05-2013, 09:26 PM

one thing i have been thinking about lately is the following

in a swarm-style affinity build without SFM, meaning using signal pest usually

has anyone thought of flayer husk instead of pest or vault skirge?

it is basically a 1-mana creature, still gets us affinity even if the token is not an artifact, and if the germ dies or is not needed anymore (maybe even let it be killed against dredge to remove brigdes) it could power up a bit our other small dudes, and with multiples you could make a champion or a fromgite become a real threat even without ravager or plating

what do u think?

EDIT: just noticed that the equip cost is 2 and not 1 as i thought before.... makes this more cute than usefull maybe

CaptainTwiddle

12-06-2013, 07:24 PM

Shawon

12-06-2013, 10:11 PM

... Vault Skirge + Cranial Plating allows Affinity to win so many games it would otherwise have no chance in.

That's exactly what I say about Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Inkmoth Nexus.

Speaking of Nexus, it's time I hop on my soapbox again and claim that if you are competent with using Ravager in Affinity, then you should be running Inkmoth over Ancient Tomb. It's better because Inkmoth can win you the game, in a nutshell. If you are not completely confident in your skills using Ravager, you should stick to Tomb. I'm not saying that last remark as an insult. I know firsthand how difficult it is to manipulate Ravager into winning games. But if you aren't able to see a line of play where Ravager + Inkmoth can win you the game, whether you go all-in on one turn with a 10 power Inkmoth or you take the gambit of attacking them in two swings with a 5/5 Inkmoth, then Inkmoth is only a liability to you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Inkmoth ups your creature count while doubling as mana. This mitigates the 'running out of gas' problem that everyone's keen on documenting. Furthermore, having it against combo gives you a fast way to win if you happen to prevent them from going off, even momentarily. I've personally killed ANT Storm with an Inkmoth kill twice in the same match, G1 and G3. It's a very clutch card if you know how to use Ravager to support it, and most of my wins with infect come from using Ravager to assist kill with Inkmoth.

AggroSteve

12-07-2013, 06:44 AM

why not run both, inkmoth and ancient tomb?

for a straight UB-shell this should be possible

Shawon

12-07-2013, 07:41 AM

It's possible, AggroSteve, but why would you run both of them and not run 12 artifact lands?

AggroSteve

12-07-2013, 08:02 AM

it's just theorycrafting

besides if i would run both i would not run a playset of each

the 12 artifact lands have priority of course, after that i would maybe play a 3/2 split to get to 17 lands

3 ancient tomb for speed
2 inkmoth (why not blinkmoth? could do basically the same, because usually we allready dealt damage for it not to matter which one we take) for utility

i think i would go with that, ...... sure you would not allways get your nexus but its not definitely needed either, ancient tomb on the other hand helps the basic gameplan of the deck, and acts as another "pseudo-artifact-land" therefore i would give ancient tomb priority

still i have allways been a fan of decks that have some tricks people would not even immagine

affinity is one of those decks.... that is what i learned with my first magic deck ever, specially arcbound ravager is such a complex card, but can be soooo extremely powerfull with a champion or a nexus on board (with the right decision of course, which is not allways easy)
i basically only play decks with loooooots of tricks in them (and none of them is blue.... i hate blue :P)

Shawon

12-07-2013, 08:17 AM

Running 2 Nexus means you won't be able to reliably draw one late-game when you need it. Your split sounds good in theory, which is why you should actually test it to see why running only 2 manlands isn't a good idea in a deck with no card manipulation.

Inkmoth is way better than Blinkmoth Nexus. They're incomparable. When you go for the Inkmoth angle, you're not doing it not to finish off your opponent's life total, because many times their life total is too high for you to win before they stabilize or win.

AggroSteve

12-07-2013, 08:35 AM

yeah, the thing with the lifetotal of my opponent being to high was the only good reason i could come up for using inkmoth over blinkmoth

still you are right on the fact that this deck runs little to none library manipulation, but that does not really force us to use 4-offs only

the way i see it is, that inkmoth, while being good, is not usefull in every matchup, basically only in stoneblade matchups where the opponent had a batterskull for long (which should not really happen as they should fetch jitte first) or some sort of nic-fit deck with angel of thune + spike feeder combo, but i would say it is allready that much of a bad matchup, that inkmoth would never be able to do much of damage either way

right now i could not think of other matchups where the life total of opponent rises to a non dealable amount, only of matchups we have a hard time dealing damage all along, and i think only in this matchups inkmoth really shines (probably miracles)
but against miracles we allready have champion and tezzeret, inkmoth would be a plus, thats for sure

but still it is all just theory in my head now

but if it would prove that 2 inkmoth would not be enough i could see myself going for a 3/3 split, losing one of the artifact lands maybe

Shawon

12-07-2013, 08:39 AM

the way i see it is, that inkmoth, while being good, is not usefull in every matchup, basically only in stoneblade matchups where the opponent had a batterskull for long (which should not really happen as they should fetch jitte first) or some sort of nic-fit deck with angel of thune + spike feeder combo, but i would say it is allready that much of a bad matchup, that inkmoth would never be able to do much of damage either way

right now i could not think of other matchups where the life total of opponent rises to a non dealable amount, only of matchups we have a hard time dealing damage all along, and i think only in this matchups inkmoth really shines (probably miracles)
but against miracles we allready have champion and tezzeret, inkmoth would be a plus, thats for sure

One word: Combo. I described how I killed Storm twice with Inkmoth. You want 4 so that you have the option of going for a quick kill. It can and has been done.

EDIT: Inkmoth is also good against edict effects ala Liliana of the Veil.

it's just theorycrafting

but still it is all just theory in my head now

Less of this, and more testing, please.

Shawon

12-08-2013, 10:49 PM

Affinity just top 8'd SCG Oakland. This is the best list I've seen top 16 all year. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61227)

Is the Thoughtseize noted in the MD actually Thoughtseize or a typo for Thoughtcast? :eyebrow: If the card noted was something like Thoughtpicker Witch, the typo would be obvious, but it's possible that the player, Ian Anderson, might have opted to run MD THoughtseize instead of Thoughtcast. It's very unlikely since Thoughtcast is the best nonartifact spell in the deck, but it's possible. Curious indeed.

EDIT: Yup, it's Thoughtcast, according to quarterfinal coverage. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/quarterfinals_danny_chan_vs_ia.html)

It's good to see a SCG grinder pick up on Academy Ruins and not just pack a random Tundra because Drew Levin said so. God, I still can't get over that.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty skeptical about Rest in Peace. How's everyone else's experience with RIP? I mean, it's not exactly hard to cast RIP on turn 1, and it is the most impactful gy-hate you can play against Dredge, but I highly question its consistency to get cast or even resolve against Reanimator. Has anyone found Rest in Peace reliable against Reanimator, or have they not tested the matchup?

EDIT (1): Ian Anderson loses the semifinals against Charles Gordon playing Deathblade. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/semifinals_ian_anderson_vs_cha.html)

If you analyze game 1 closely, you will see why I prefer Stoneforge Mystic over Signal Pest. I fall in and out of love with Signal Pest, and reading the coverage for game 1 reinforces why Signal Pest is poor in Affinity. Signal Pest commits you to only one plan, which is to overextend your offense into a swarm for quick damage, and it's a plan that's way too easy to disrupt by an opponent who's prepared. Stoneforge Mystic gives you the plan of being aggressive by finding Cranial Plating, and insuring its resolution, or it can allow you to play defensively by fetching Batterskull. The versatility that Stoneforge Mystic offers in Affinity far outclasses the explosiveness that Signal Pest only variably supplies.

jseed

12-09-2013, 02:07 AM

It's good to see a SCG grinder pick up on Academy Ruins and not just pack a random Tundra because Drew Levin said so. God, I still can't get over that.

I'm interested to find out if Academy Ruins was ever useful. I might still want Glimmervoid or City of Brass there. Seems like the edge any of those three cards provide is pretty marginal though.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty skeptical about Rest in Peace. How's everyone else's experience with RIP? I mean, it's not exactly hard to cast RIP on turn 1, and it is the most impactful gy-hate you can play against Dredge, but I highly question its consistency to get cast or even resolve against Reanimator. Has anyone found Rest in Peace reliable against Reanimator, or have they not tested the matchup?

I haven't tested against Reanimator, but you should remember that RIP is also good against cards like Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Life from the Loam, etc. Crypt, Relic, or Cage are all kind of underwhelming or completely irrelevant against those cards.

EDIT (1): Ian Anderson loses the semifinals against Charles Gordon playing Deathblade. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/semifinals_ian_anderson_vs_cha.html)

If you analyze game 1 closely, you will see why I prefer Stoneforge Mystic over Signal Pest. I fall in and out of love with Signal Pest, and reading the coverage for game 1 reinforces why Signal Pest is poor in Affinity. Signal Pest commits you to only one plan, which is to overextend your offense into a swarm for quick damage, and it's a plan that's way too easy to disrupt by an opponent who's prepared. Stoneforge Mystic gives you the plan of being aggressive by finding Cranial Plating, and insuring its resolution, or it can allow you to play defensively by fetching Batterskull. The versatility that Stoneforge Mystic offers in Affinity far outclasses the explosiveness that Signal Pest only variably supplies.

I think it's interesting we can read the same report and draw two totally different conclusions. Signal Pest dealt Charles 6 damage that game. If Ian went first OR Gordon missed a land OR Gordon didn't have his two of Supreme Verdict then Ian probably wins that game mostly on the back of signal pest providing 9 extra damage on T4. This is especially impressive considering Ian's opener was quite weak and he lost a Thoughtcast on top of starting out with a mediocre hand. I really don't see how SFM helps in this game even ignoring the fact that Ian kept a one lander (which I assume was Seat of the Synod) so a SFM without other action would have been a mulligan. In the early game Charles probably would have had an extra turn to find verdict and in the late game giving him 3 turns to find basically any removal spell is way too slow. Also, getting a batterskull and playing defensively against that deck? He has Jace, TNN, and a bunch of efficient removal. You're going to lose that way 99% of the time. Realistically, given the two players hands, I think Ian pretty much needed to follow up with Tezz.

IjjI

12-09-2013, 05:04 PM

I'm Ian Anderson, so thanks for all the good things you guys have been saying about my list. I really don't deserve it though, I put way too much time into testing standard and basically no time into prepping for legacy for SCGOAK. You'll notice my list is really only a few cards off of Drew Levin's. I'll be changing that before the invitational in Vegas this weekend though, as a few things, mostly my sideboard, really under performed. It didn't matter though, as affinity was a perfect match for the meta. It really seemed like everyone wanted to play true-name, but nobody (besides the eventual winner) packed anything to handle their opponent's true-names. If people follow his lead and start running more supreme verdicts and zealous persecutions affinity might not be a good choice.

The thoughtseizes in the list SCG has were definitely thoughtcasts. I think the most obvious mistake I made though was playing spell pierce over thoughtseize in the sideboard though. Pierce is better against miracles, but thoughtseize is pretty much better against everything else.

I'll be writing up a tournament report soon where I'll try to go into more detail on my thoughts on the deck, but for now I'll try to respond to a few things that have come up recently in this thread. First, for those of you that insist on cutting signal pest I really think you need to playtest with it more. You need all the cheap artifacts to make the power cards good (platings, Tezz, ravager, and etched champion to an extent) and pests make draws with too many of the cheap cards still winning hands. I had multiple turn three kills throughout the day, including one on a mulligan to 5, none of which would have happened without signal pest. In the semifinals, if I went first I win that game, and if signal pest was anything else it would be a mulligan.

I like the idea of some sort of search though, especially since I'm convinced Jitte should be somewhere in the deck. I just don't think you can cut one of your cheap evasive creatures, especially the only one that makes your multiple memnite-ornithopter draws keepable.

Academy Ruins probably won me 1 game throughout the day, and had an impact on a few more. I used it for everything from getting back a mox opal to cast Tezz, getting back cranial plating 4+ turns in a row until my opponent was out of counters and artifact removal, getting back etched champions until my opponent couldn't find a terminus or verdict, and even getting back an artifact land to make a Tezz ultimate lethal. I'm completely redoing the sideboard, so I might need it to be an extra multicolored land like City of Brass. It does give the deck a level of inevitability even against decks full of counterspells, since even True Name usually ends up needing to be held back as a blocker (besides against UWR delver with its 8 one mana removal spells).

Inkmoth could work, but you couldn't cut 4 land for them so you'd either play less than a playset or have to cut some creatures for them. It's also pretty mana intensive if you are putting platings on it, and with so many wastelands and one mana removal spells you can't afford to target it with ravager's modular unless it is a last resort.

I played Greg hatch in round 6 I think (need to check my notes) and he was playing merfolk. He told me he wanted to play affinity for the event, and had been messing around with the idea of a list including 4 true names (he inspired my comment in the player profile regarding the best true name nemesis deck in legacy). The matchups vs. the fair decks are already so great I'm not sure if it is necessary. Still, cranial plating in affinity is the best equipment in the game, so including the creature best at carrying equipment is an idea worth thinking about.

I just have too much to say about the deck, since it has been all I've been thinking about since that semifinals match. I think if I had actually put in work on my sideboard before the event, I should have been able to easily take down the event. I'll be starting a tourny report tonight and will probably include a sort of mini primer just to really think through my thoughts on each card.

Shawon

12-09-2013, 10:21 PM

First off, Ian, I want to explicitly say congratulations to your top 4 success. Every time I load up the link for SCG Top 16 decklists, I always have two fingers crossed, hoping my eyes would scroll down the page and see at least one list titled with any instance of the word “Affinity.” So it was definitely great to see that you not only made the top 16, but made the top 8 as well. I was rooting for you in the SCG coverage, and I wanted to see you win against Deathblade, but sadly it wasn’t meant to be. Those Meddling Mages were back-breaking. Anyway, I’m proud of your success in 3rd place and I hope you continue your hot streak in the Legacy portion of the next SCG Invi in Vegas. Good luck, and welcome to The Source. I’m glad you decided to join our ongoing discussion of Affinity, and I look forward to sharing ideas and thoughts with you, even if we may disagree on some.

With that out of the way, I’ll try to respond to what I feel I should respond to. :

First, for those of you that insist on cutting signal pest I really think you need to playtest with it more. You need all the cheap artifacts to make the power cards good (platings, Tezz, ravager, and etched champion to an extent) and pests make draws with too many of the cheap cards still winning hands. I had multiple turn three kills throughout the day, including one on a mulligan to 5, none of which would have happened without signal pest. In the semifinals, if I went first I win that game, and if signal pest was anything else it would be a mulligan.

I’ve tested the 4 Tomb list with Pest before trying out Stoneforge Mystic, and my experiences have shown me how mediocre Signal Pest is against opponents who are prepared to deal with it. Signal Pest’s only two benefits are its cheap cost and its explosiveness, EDIT: and even if you do open with it and its unchecked, Pest's power is variable and inconsistent . The problem with Affinity is its tendency to run into bad mulligans with plenty of fast creatures and running out gas. Signal Pest isn’t guaranteed to fix these problems because if your opponent has an answer for Signal Pest, you will feel like you lost more than one card in exchange for that removal spell because you kept an otherwise bad hand just because of that Pest. If you are trying to come back into the game, say if you are recovering from an attrition war or if you need to block to your benefit, then Signal Pest doesn’t help you here because it has no inherent gain on its own since it has 0 power and it doesn’t have flying to actually block other flying creatures. Every other card in Affinity, like Ravager, and Etched Champion, and Tezzerets, are automatic must-haves in the deck because they pull so much indisputable weight in games. Vault Skirge is probably the only other card that can be compared with Signal Pest, and it’s still leagues better because of its lifelink and its actual flying ability which makes it able to block fliers, which Signal Pest can’t do. I’m glad that Signal Pest did some work for you at SCG Oak, but I really think you need to take your own advice and playtest with Signal Pest more to see why it’s the weakest card in the deck.

The thoughtseizes in the list SCG has were definitely thoughtcasts. I think the most obvious mistake I made though was playing spell pierce over thoughtseize in the sideboard though. Pierce is better against miracles, but thoughtseize is pretty much better against everything else.

Pierce is indeed clutch against Miracles, I can attest to that. I wouldn’t sweat myself over not running Thoughtseize, because running only a three-outer against something like Show and Tell where the rest of your SB is irrelevant won’t change the matchup significantly. I am running a seven-card discard package against decks like S&T (3 Tidehollow, 2 Thoughseize, 2 Therapy), and I feel that my number is enough disruption to not actually dilute the deck.

I like the idea of some sort of search though, especially since I'm convinced Jitte should be somewhere in the deck. I just don't think you can cut one of your cheap evasive creatures, especially the only one that makes your multiple memnite-ornithopter draws keepable.

If you keep a hand full of Kobolds + Pest, and your opponent has a creature removal for Pest, then you are left with a meager offense with 1s and 0s of power. If you keep a hand full of Kobolds and + Mystic, and your opponent directly removes Mystic, you are left with a meager offense and a Cranial Plating. Which would you prefer?

Jitte is a pretty miserable MD slot, especially since you can't neutralize your opponent's anymore. Manriki-Gusari may be an option, especially with SFM. For now, I am keen to believe that Pithing Needle is the most effective solution against Jitte.

I'm telling you all, Batterskull is very good in the Tomb version. When you stop looking at it strictly as a 4/4 vigiliance lifelinker, you will start to take into account that you're able to attach Cranial Plating to it for massive amounts of lifegain, and you can equip Etched Champion with it. Or you can even attack with the token, and tap it to Drum for mana. It has its own synergies with the deck outside of Stoneforge Mystic.

Inkmoth could work, but you couldn't cut 4 land for them so you'd either play less than a playset or have to cut some creatures for them. It's also pretty mana intensive if you are putting platings on it, and with so many wastelands and one mana removal spells you can't afford to target it with ravager's modular unless it is a last resort.

I highly advise against theorycrafting and strongly suggest you try out Inkmoth for yourself. The Wasteland argument you and Drew Levin bring up is as cliché and meaningless as the tired-old “it dies to Swords to Plowshares” argument. It costs only two mana to equip a resolved Plating onto an untapped Nexus, five if you haven’t cast Plating yet. Ravager + Inkmoth Nexus is not a last resort, it’s a gambit you can opt to take if the time required for an Infect kill is available to you given the board state. For context, I went for an multiple-turn Infect kill against Pox, even sacrificing a Pithing Needle naming Liliana, because I knew their only out was Wasteland or possibly Sinkhole, and my Pox opponent clearly didn’t have one, and I had another land in my hand saved after the Smallpox he cast next turn. I can’t explain to you how Inkmoth actually impacts a specific matchup, other than combo since it gives you an ace up your sleeve if you have the resources for an Infect kill, but I can tell you from experience that Inkmoth can pull outs wins from nowhere and it rewards intuiton combined with proficient skill using Ravager.

F8iscruel

12-09-2013, 11:52 PM

Hey Ian, I would love to talk more about your build, I played 69~ of your 75 at GP DC and made day two, losing to storm, elves, sneak and show, shardless bug, and aggro loam w/ DD combo in it.

the differences between ours were mainly in the SB and the 17th land of the deck (mine is glimmervoid) and I ran ensnaring bridge and whipflare in my sideboard, shaving down the RiP and Ethersworn down 1 a piece and no spell pierce at all.

congrats on the finish :)

Final Fortune

12-10-2013, 10:52 AM

Some random observations,

I really think you underestimate how good RIP is vs the field as opposed to how good RIP is vs Reanimator, the fact of the matter is Reanimator is probably a lost match up no matter what you do so you may as well play a back breaker vs Dredge and any other deck that's soft to graveyard hate like RUG.

I don't think Signal Pest and Stoneforge Mystic are mutually exclusive at all and I don't know why everybody treats them as such, I'm highly skeptical of cards like Vault Skirge ever being consistent and Etched Champion is overrated IMO. I tend to always come back to the cards that let the deck scale as opposed to the ones that do cute shit like gain life.

Cabal Therapy > Thoughtseize > Spell Pierce and Revoker > Canonist because card advantage and versatility are more important IMO. I really don't understand Canonist because it has like 0 applications outside of Storm, even something like Thalia would be really fucking irritating for Storm and a pretty good card vs Show&Tell.

I still think Paradise Mantle makes the best 17th mana source, a lot of the times it's just a worse drum but I think the added utility it gives Stoneforge Mystic is worth it. I don't think you really need Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte in the MD, they make ok SB cards but really I just want Plating, Plating or more Plating unless I need to fix my mana.

There are days I really want to bring back Disciple of the Vault and use other cool stuff like Thopter Faundry instead of the Planeswalker, curving out at two is really underrated and it just feels like he eats Spell Pierce and Daze all day at times. I probably wont ever do it just because he's that one card that laughs off Abrupt Decay, but damn is Daze really irritating.

I know the deck kind of has a hard time vs Miracles, but I think with any aggro deck that you really have to know your place in the metagame and I liken Affinity to Elves in the sense they should both beat the same and lose to the same match ups as aggro-combo. But thankfully, I think Affinity just has a way better SB than Elves in order to be completely unfair to some decks by dropping bombs like Rest in Peace and Engineered Plague or throwing a lot of "not so bad" SB disruption in Cabal Therapy, Spell Pierce, Chalice of the Void or Revoker at Storm opponents and such.

I really find Thoughtcast underwhelming when it can't slam a Frogmite or Enforcer onto the board anymore, god I wish Skull Clamp would get unbanned just to make aggro-control cry.

Shawon

12-10-2013, 11:47 AM

Perhaps you're right. I haven't tested Rest in Peace, and I have seen the Drew Levin video of his match against Dredge, so I have witnessed how backbreaking Rest in Peace is against Dredge. I imagine it would certainly be very annoying against RUG. But if you want to talk about Dredge, I just think the difference between Rest in Peace and any other graveyard hate is pretty trivial so long as you find your piece. I could be wrong. Dredge could bring in Ancient Grudge for your artifact gy hate, or you mulligan to find Rest in Peace but can't cast it. I think there's pros and cons to running either Rest in Peace against gy-combo decks.

I treat Signal Pest and Stoneforge Mystic as mutually exclusive right now because as I said, every other card is needed in the current iteration of Affinity. I too sometimes feel that Etched Champion is overrated, but it is needed. Despite my reasons against Signal Pest, I do agree with the thought process that it being a cheap card brings some cohesion to enabling your manabase should you not draw Memnites/Thopters. That's why Vault Skirge is still in the deck. I acknowledge that Signal Pest does remove some of the early game consistency and explosiveness, but Stoneforge Mystic adds a lot of consistency in the late game, and the difference in internal synergy is trivially affected by the loss of Signal Pest, I find.

I agree on your sentiments regarding Canonist. I am trying a 2-2 split of both Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy currently, and I like it very much because it's unilateral disruption that can hit both Omni-Tell and Sneak-Show without running selective cards like Karakas or Canonist. I run 3 Tidehollow Sculler in addition to the 4 discard, so I feel very good about my anti-(dumb)combo plan.

Final Fortune

12-10-2013, 01:23 PM

Edit: Just play four Therapy, you already know what he's playing game 2

Personally, I just don't understand why cards like Vault Scourge or Etched Champion are needed at all, you keep swearing by them but honestly I have never got into situations where Lifelink would have mattered or where a Pro:Everything bear was what I needed more than ending the game with Disciple of the Vault immediately or Signal Pest carrying a Cranial Plating to victory just as easily.

Now that everybody pretty much plays Ravager again, I don't know how you can't play Disciple as well. You don't need to "Moat" Goyf with Etched Champion when you can just combo off and win, and it keeps the curve low.

I think something like,

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drums
1 Paradise Mantle

4 Memnite
4 Ornithoper
4 Signal Pest
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Cranial Plating
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thoughtcast
3 Tezzert Agent of Bolas

lets you do the two things you want to do most, combo off in the opponent's face or beat him over the head with a Plating.

Shawon

12-10-2013, 01:51 PM

Final Fortune

12-10-2013, 06:32 PM

The lifelink matters a ton, because if you enter a race, the life gain allows you to keep taking hits. Vault Skirge + Plating is a clutch out against Progenitus, for example.

Etched Champion has strong synergy with both Cranial Plating and Ravager. Disciple of the Vault only has strong synergy with Ravager, and as a 1-drop Human, it doesn't help activate Mox Opal or Thoughtcast. It's only good when you have Ravager, that's why Disciple doesn't cut it anymore, and it won't ever unless another sac outlet as good as Ravager comes out (Atog isn't good), or Skullclamp is unbanned. EDIT: If it was an artifact creature for :b:, it would be better than Vault Skirge (kinda of a stretch).

What deck in this format races Affinity point for point on damage and how is Vault Scourge any less reliant on Cranial Plating than Disciple of the Vault is on Arcbound Ravager? Granted the deck can have 8 virtual copies of Cranial Plating, but it can also have 5+ copies of Arcbound Ravager with Thopter Foundry and Disciple of the Vault still has its uses whenever an artifact is destroyed by pinging the opponent. All I know is absolutely no one Force of Wills, Dazes or Lightning Bolts a Vault Scourge ever, but Disciple of the Vault draws counter magic and removal like a magnet.

I don't buy the "it would be better if it were an artifact creature argument," that's as easily offset by deciding whether or not you want to play Ancient Tomb or Darksteel Citadel in your deck. The fact of the matter is the deck only plays 4 copies of its name sake mechanic anymore, and I really doubt it should be playing those at all because the days of generating board advantage after U: play free 4/4 and 2/2 creatures are long gone and card advantage in a deck that has 25 mana sources and 8 zero drop creatures isn't so hott.

Ok, there is no such thing as a creature that doesn't have synergy with Cranial Plating, it's an equipment, but I'll give you that it's a perq the opponent can't remove Etched Champion in response to equip and he does have evasion. The problem tho' is that he just doesn't establish board presence by himself, and even with Ravager you still need 2 other artifacts on board to keep up protection from everything. Personally I just think you're better off going for another angle of attack than putting all of your faith into Cranial Plating and cards that are good with Cranial Plating and little else.

No offense, but I think you're really caught up in some card choices that are just fundamentally weak without any other form of synergy, and while I'm not saying Disciple of the Vault doesn't qualify I'm much more certain I'd rather have Disciple of the Vault than Vault Scourge against any deck with blue in it for sure. I don't know how other people feel about cards like Vault Scourge, Etched Champion or Thoughtcast, but cards that fall out of the "scalable bomb or combo finish" description should really be questioned because every time I cast Thoughtcast and draw an Ornithoper and a Mox Opal I'm really asking myself why didn't I just cast Master of Etherium?

Mayve I've just played too much of Classic Affinity, but given the format is much more inclined to dagage races and I still don't use Vault Scourge I'm pretty sure racing Progenitus (what deck even plays that?) is going to be a huge argument for a 1/1 flying dork that doesn't attribute to scalable damage output like Signal Pest or Disciple of the Vault (with combat trades or against removal and sweapers)

Anyway play Dredge however you want to, I just don't get what you're playing against where taking 2 damage for a 1/1 flying life link is the difference between life and death, because it certainly isn't Goblins.

Shawon

12-11-2013, 02:08 PM

What deck in this format races Affinity point for point on damage and how is Vault Scourge any less reliant on Cranial Plating than Disciple of the Vault is on Arcbound Ravager? Granted the deck can have 8 virtual copies of Cranial Plating, but it can also have 5+ copies of Arcbound Ravager with Thopter Foundry and Disciple of the Vault still has its uses whenever an artifact is destroyed by pinging the opponent. All I know is absolutely no one Force of Wills, Dazes or Lightning Bolts a Vault Scourge ever, but Disciple of the Vault draws counter magic and removal like a magnet.

I'd rather have 8 platings than 4 Ravagers + 3-4 bad imitations (Thopter Foundry, Atog) of it.

With the exception of Mantle, I'd had every other spell in my deck countered by Force before, so that remark is kinda moot. And you're telling me no opponent has ever tried to Bolt Skirge? What parallel universe are you living in?

Ok, there is no such thing as a creature that doesn't have synergy with Cranial Plating, it's an equipment, but I'll give you that it's a perq the opponent can't remove Etched Champion in response to equip and he does have evasion. The problem tho' is that he just doesn't establish board presence by himself, and even with Ravager you still need 2 other artifacts on board to keep up protection from everything. Personally I just think you're better off going for another angle of attack than putting all of your faith into Cranial Plating and cards that are good with Cranial Plating and little else.

Yes, that is why I also run 4 Ravager. I go for Ravager-assisted kills all the time, often kills that take two or three turns because I made the right judgment call about the game. Maintaining Metalcraft after going all-in with Ravager->Etched Champion is just a matter of counting. It's not that hard, but I have to be decisive in choosing which artifacts to sacrifice in each game. Your skepticism of Ravager assisting Champion into a reliable skill leads me to question your experience using Ravager to assist kills that weren't one-shot KOs. Have you ever put your opponent on a three-turn clock with Ravager pumping Etched Champion into a 7/7? It's not a Magical Christmasland dream, it's an actual gambit that I have often taken to close out games. I don't see why I should be interested in a Disciple kill when I've been fine with going all-in on Etched Champion or Inkmoth Nexus.

No offense, but I think you're really caught up in some card choices that are just fundamentally weak without any other form of synergy, and while I'm not saying Disciple of the Vault doesn't qualify I'm much more certain I'd rather have Disciple of the Vault than Vault Scourge against any deck with blue in it for sure. I don't know how other people feel about cards like Vault Scourge, Etched Champion or Thoughtcast, but cards that fall out of the "scalable bomb or combo finish" description should really be questioned because every time I cast Thoughtcast and draw an Ornithoper and a Mox Opal I'm really asking myself why didn't I just cast Master of Etherium?

I don't think I'm caught up with trying to run cards for the sake of internal synergy, because that's the whole point of Affinity! Every card needs to have synergy with the rest of the deck, otherwise you are diluting the strength of the deck, which is to abuse its internal synergy to assemble an aggressive board position. Disciple, especially in multiples, can be brutal with Ravager if your opponent is on the ropes, no one is disputing that. However, the fact remains that Disciple is very bad without Ravager. In fact, with Disciple and SFM in your deck, you have only 12 robots in your deck outside of Ravager, and that is way too low if you want to make use of Modular.

Disciple of the Vault is even more fundamentally weak on its own than either Vault Skirge or Etched Champion, so what are you trying to say? Disciple costs 1 specific colored mana, Vault Skirge and Etched Champion are basically colorless. Disciple may have a combo finish, with Ravager exclusively, but it is no bomb except in very specific scenarios (like facing Emrakul).

I think you're caught up with trying to make Affinity into an ineffective combo deck. It's best as an aggro deck. Disciple of the Vault only adds a situational combo finish.

The answer to "Why didn't I just cast Master of Etherium," is "it's slow and unreliable."

I'm curious: what matchups have you tested Disciple against? Without talking about Sneak-Show. If you can tell me what relevant match ups Disciple significantly improves, I will test out your list. I disapprove of theory crafting, and I admit I have never tested Disciple, so I am willing to test it in order to reach a more decisive and analytic stance on it. Although, I already have my doubts on using Disciple if my approach is to remove Vault Skirge. I don't see how doing that would improve my opening hands at all.

Asmahasmalaria

12-12-2013, 08:10 AM

Cabal Therapy > Thoughtseize > Spell Pierce and Revoker > Canonist because card advantage and versatility are more important IMO. I really don't understand Canonist because it has like 0 applications outside of Storm, even something like Thalia would be really fucking irritating for Storm and a pretty good card vs Show&Tell.

Canonist has applications against various other decks. For example omniscience, belcher, tin fins, spiral tide, dream halls, allspells, hive mind, elves, zombie bombardement, aluren, burn, enchantress,cephalid breakfast, hypergenesis and maybe even berserk stompy.
Although i like thalia very much and i tried her in Affinity i think she doesnt fit in, because she makes your tezzeret impossible to cast sometimes and has dissynergy with springleaf drum and plating and after boarding with chalice of the void and Rest in peace, too. Canonist doesnt have that weakness and is an artifact additionally. But i think you are right when you critisize the missing sideboard options against show and tell (sneak attack version).

Does anyone have an idea for that? My sideboard is currently as following

4 chalice of the void
4 Rest in peace
4 ethersworn canonist
3 Engineered Plague

Mostly i am interested in your thoughts about the plagues. Does affinity need them in your eyes? Or should one play something like thoughtseize or cabal therapy instead? In that case i d say therapy would be the better option.
Or would ethersworn canonist combined with spell pierce be the answer, so you can counter his show and tell but he can´t counter your spellpierce?

Final Fortune

12-12-2013, 09:37 AM

Disciple is pretty much back breaking vs any blue control(ish) deck, especially vs Miracles. I don't see how the deck is any less aggro by switching out a 1/1 dork for a 1/1 dork, you keep comparing certain cards as either or when I'm playing both which frankly confuses me a lot. Basically the only thing I'm really sold on is Thoughtcast is pretty underwhelming without Frogmite and Myr Enforcer and I'm kind of at a loss for what the best robot 13-16 is to replace it. You're build with Scourge and Inkmoth is just too centered on Plating, the deck gets wrecked by a Needle where having multiple angles of attack with Ravager/Disciple doesn't. If I cut Thoughtcast I may give Blinkmoth/Inkmoth another go in order to increase the evasive robot count because I don't need the land as a base artificat to cast Thoughtcast quickly anymore. I don't typically have a problem with the robot count for modular because the way I look at it is that Ravager is really there to either make himself big or offset an Abrupt Decay on him by dumping his tokens onto something otherwise worthless like a Memnite. Playing bots just for the sake of playing bots is something I try to avoid as much as I can if the bot isn't inherently aggressive.

If affinity is about synergy then what synergy does a 1, 1/1 flying life link really have? It carries plating, which everything does, it gains life, when it already costed 2 life to begin with, and it's an artifact and that's about it. The card itself is just immensely weak, and I think you under rate just how good Disciple is even by itself because it has a way of attracting counters and removal much more than Scourge at the onset of the game and makes cards like sweepers potentially very dangerous for your opponent. If you haven't played with Disciple in awhile then I think you really need to because he generally finds about a Lightning Bolt worth of damage from his effect even without Ravager on board. There is just so much stuff like Wasteland, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Terminus, Lilliana of the Veil, Punishing Fires, Grim Lavamancer, Ancient Grudge, Combat Trades etc. where Disciple eaks out value as a dork. It's totally not as dependent as you think it is on Ravager, altho' it's pretty bonkers with Ravager regardless and people are pretty terrified to leave that thing on the board when Ravager is Pierce proof and threatening to just end the game on the spot if he comes down. That's why I say Scourge isnt anywhere near the lightning rod Disciple is, people will only Lightning Bolt Scourge in response to an equipment activation. There isn't that feeling of "oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck" at all with that card.

anakyn

12-12-2013, 12:24 PM

If affinity is about synergy then what synergy does a 1, 1/1 flying life link really have? It carries plating, which everything does, it gains life, when it already costed 2 life to begin with, and it's an artifact and that's about it.

Evasion?

Yep, Ornithopter has evasion too, but if you manage an attack with Cranial-equipped Skirge it's almost GG vs decks like Canadian or Burn, or any deck designed to deal 20 damage (but not more than that) as fast as possible.
It won't happen that often with an early Skirge 'cause it will be bolted down pretty fast, but any Skirge drawn in the mid game is a match winner unless they find a way to deal immediately with it.

Also, a single attack with Skirge + Cranial (which can happen on 2nd turn) means problem for Storm too, since at that point they have to reach an higher Storm count to beat you.

Evasion is great of course.
And lifelink is not something to overlook.
Cheap lifelink AND evasion seems like 4-of autoinclude to me.

But i think you are right when you critisize the missing sideboard options against show and tell (sneak attack version).

Does anyone have an idea for that? My sideboard is currently as following

4 chalice of the void
4 Rest in peace
4 ethersworn canonist
3 Engineered Plague

My sideboard right now is:
- 2 Tormod's
- 1 Revoker (I play 3 MD)
- 4 Canonist
- 4 Oblivion ring
- 4 Whipflare
...and I'll probably go to 3 Tormod's cutting 1 Whipflare.
O-rings comes in vs S&T.

Chalice is missing from SB simply because I play the full set maindeck.
Of course I don't play Pest for this reason, but I'm happy with that 'cause I never liked that card.

I prefer Tormod's over RIP because:
- white mana sometimes could be an issue (that's the same with Canonist too, but Canonist has no replacement nearly as strong)
- costing :0: is huge in Affinity 'cause it provides explosive starts

Chalice maindeck has been very good for me: even in matchups where it's not strictly needed it can do some work: for example a Chalice @1 vs D&T blanks their StP, which can be game breaking sometimes (of course they have outs, but they are kinda slow).
Playing them maindeck not only gives us some game-1 wins vs decks where we would be hopeless without them (Storm comes to mind), not only gives us free wins vs some other decks (RUG, Burn), not only negates any cantrip vs blue decks, but also frees 4 slots in the sideboard.

Asmahasmalaria

12-12-2013, 01:32 PM

My sideboard right now is:
- 2 Tormod's
- 1 Revoker (I play 3 MD)
- 4 Canonist
- 4 Oblivion ring
- 4 Whipflare
Chalice is missing from SB simply because I play the full set maindeck.
Of course I don't play Pest for this reason, but I'm happy with that 'cause I never liked that card.

May i ask how many creatures you run and which? Personally i feel like less than 24 creatures is to less and there is not much space, when you need
3 Tezzeret and a playset each of Thoughtcast, spingleaf drum, mox opal and platings. Which card do you cut for Revoker and why?

anakyn

12-12-2013, 01:50 PM

May i ask how many creatures you run and which? Personally i feel like less than 24 creatures is to less and there is not much space, when you need
3 Tezzeret and a playset each of Thoughtcast, spingleaf drum, mox opal and platings. Which card do you cut for Revoker and why?

Here's my current Affinity list:

// Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion

// Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Whipflare

So I'm running 23 creatures, that's acceptable I guess.

Note that I'm not on a "swarm plan" but more on an "alpha strike plan", where Champion and Ravager become more important then Pest and MoE.
Basically, my list plays Revoker in place of Pests, and prefers Ravager to MoE. The rest of the maindeck is pretty standard.
I prefer to have some control element on my opponent instead of simply going "all in", which is a tactic I never liked on any deck (that's why I could never play something like Belcher for example). The deck stays very fast even without Pests or MoE and a turn 4 (or even 3, but that's very rare) kill has more or less the same probability to happen.

Revoker is good/great in almost any matchup except Canadian, so I'm happy I play a 3-of maindeck. Of course I prefer them over Needle 'cause, even if they are more vulnerable (but in a world of Decays every cheap permanent seems vulnerable as well), they also provide a body, which is crucial in a deck with Plating.

The main issue maindeck is the n° of Tezzerets, because sometimes I feel like I wanted the third copy...
...but maybe 2 is just the right number: they are pretty clunky, you never want to see 2 in your starting hand, and imho the best scenario is drawing them after a couple of turns, when your opponent has already used most of his defensive resources trying to slow you down: for that scenario to happen as often as possible, I think playing 2 copies is the best choice.
If I had to play 3 copies, I'll probably cut a Springleaf or a Memnite, I don't know for sure.

However, I have to say I change up my Affinity list quite often, so it's not like I consider this version as definitive.

Draconicsteel

12-12-2013, 07:08 PM

Hey guys, I've been reading the threads for a little while now, but only recently have registered to post. I wanted to put up my current deck list (which changes constantly), and ask some questions about why some people prefer some cards over other cards, or the effectiveness of certain other cards.

Main deck:
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest (Shawon, I know you're not a fan, but I've taken a liking to Pest, been using it awhile now)
4 Etched Champion
4 Vault Skirge
3 Master of Etherium
2 Arcbound Ravager
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
2 Tezzeret
1 Jitte

4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Buried Ruin

SB:
1 Batterskull
3 Rest in Peace
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Revoker

(sorry, don't know how to tag cards)

On SFM: I didn't initially use it, and thought it didn't belong, but decided to give it a try after seeing it on the boards for so long. After playing with it at 2 of, I love it. I think it works in the deck fantastically. Haven't experimented with more than 2 of yet, but I like where it's at right now.

I'm only running 2 of Ravager because I've found that the all in strategy can sometimes hurt you if you don't know how to work it - though I'm willing to admit this might be because I'm not yet experienced enough with playing to make him a longer game-winning plan. The decrease of Ravager is only recent, though, so I'm seeing how I like it.

Final Fortune mentioned that Vault Skirge isn't as impressive, but I, personally, think it's one of the best cards in the deck, along with Champion. Skirge flies and gets there with lifelink, which has been very relevant in a lot of match-ups. And Champion shores up the fair deck match up. I went to Chantilly and played pretty much nothing but fair decks, and every time Champion landed, my opponent was in trouble. It's an easy side out for combo, but I think we want to be focusing on being more brutal towards our good match-ups, instead of watering down in the hopes that our bad match-ups will be better. Several of my Jund/Maverick/Junk friends have told me that Champion is the only thing that they're scared of in the deck.

What do you suggest between Buried Ruin and Academy Ruins? I agree with Shawon, I don't like Tundra at all, it doesn't do anything for the deck. But I've found that I really like the interaction of Buried Ruin and I've been playing with it for awhile. I was wondering if placing it in your hand was better than wasting a draw to get the card you want. The obvious plus to Academy Ruins is that you can keep doing it without losing a land, but I've had some of my friends point out that Buried Ruin putting it in your hand can be crucial. Thoughts?

Thoughtseize has been bounced around a few times, but why not Cabal Therapy? Against the match-ups you don't like, call the one card you're afraid of, then sac the Ornithopter to get rid of the other one. One time I beat a Sneak and Show by naming Show and Tell, got two of them, then sac'd Thopter to get 2 Brainstorms, giving him a three card hand with no way to play the Griselbrand in his hand. Needless to say, I crushed him that game. I also used to run Surgical Extraction, which I liked a lot with Therapy, but I've taken that out in favor of more Canonist. Because Canonist.

I tried out the Chalice and the Ancient Tomb and didn't like either card in the deck. I found that I'd much rather have the artifact land instead of the additional mana to help out Opal, Plating, and Tezz. I figured Tomb was only really in the deck for Batterskull and Chalice, with an added benefit making it easier to cast Tezz. And while Chalice does hurt a lot of decks more than ours, I just found that I would much rather be playing some kind of beater, or putting more threats on the board. I notice that not as many lists are running Master, but I like Master over Chalice. Yeah, it's slower, but it not only turns on Thopters, but it's a threat that the opponent has to deal with. If they don't, they die. And, hey, if you want to Swords my 8/8 beater, that's fine with me. You've just given me more time to kill you.

Thanks for the input,
~Will

Shawon

12-12-2013, 08:18 PM

Glad to see you put some thought and effort into your list, and even better that you took the time to research this thread to come up with your questions, Will. Welcome to The Source.

I don't hate Signal Pest, but I did have to make the case that it is bad to support running Stoneforge Mystic over Pest in that Esper list. Though, now that I've running Inkmoth Nexus, I have been noticing from calculating that the I can hit for usually as high up to 9 Infect damage if I go all-in on Inkmoth as early as I can, which makes me think of how I would've been able to hit for 10 infect had I had Signal Pest. I still think Vault Skirge is better in my list, but I do think of Signal Pest in the back of my mind even though I disapprove of running it. But hey, you're running both Stoneforge Mystic and Signal Pest, so I'm not going to argue with you since you also endorse Mystic.

I don't feel the need to give you advice on what numbers to run specifically of each card, because I feel that those numbers you reached have been based on your own play experience. I think you exhibit sound reasoning for running 2 Ravager because you are indeed correct that going all-in on Ravager is a line of attack that is hard to perform correctly without enough experience. Just keep testing and you'll figure out the build that's suited for you.

I actually thought about Buried Ruin while walking my dog (I sometimes get a lot of ideas for Affinity while walking my dog). I like that Buried Ruin can rebuy an artifact and let you cast it on the same turn, and its ability costs only colorless mana. However, Ruins has recurring value, and I think putting the artifact on top of your library has ONE big advantage over Buried Ruin in that you have a way to survive a Jace TMS ultimate. I have beaten Miracles like this before. That's something to consider.

I'm glad you brought up your dislike of Chalice MD, because that's how I feel about devoting a section of the MD for techy cards typically meant for the SB. I always feel like a weaker aggro deck as a result.

My approach is different. (Aside, I'm removing my habit of posting decklists only to spawn little to none feedback or dialogue, so I'll be very infrequent with posting decklists unless I'm reporting my tournament performance.)

Esperblade Affinity (Inkmoth Edition)

Mana
12 Artifact Lands
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Drum
4 Opal
1 Mantle

Creatures
8 Cheeri0s (I typically use "Kobolds," but seeing the Cheeri0s thread in N&D forum, I like it better)
4 Vault Skirge
4 Ravager
4 Champ
3 SFM

Business/Etc.
4 TC
4 Plating
3 Tezz
1 Batterskull

SB:
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Relic of Progenitus

If I could sum up what my variation of Affinity is trying to do, it's to increase the win percentage significantly by reducing the number of mulligans and giving myself more ways to win. My creature count is technically 23, but if you count the 4 Inkmoth, Batterskull, and still exclude Tezzeret as a creature even though it's a threat, I'm effectively running 28 creatures in my deck. That's higher than probably any other Affinity deck out there that is tuned to fight the current meta.

The problems I aimed to solve with making my current iteration of Affinity was the propensity of Affinity to draw weak hands, and just lose gas into the mid- or late-game. I feel that I have solved these problems as best as I could with my current MD. I've said it over and over like a broken record how Stoneforge Mystic adds a stronger, more resilient lategame, while reducing the variance of opening hands that fail to draw into Cranial Plating. Also, by running a healthy number of mana sources, I actually mulligan a lot less; plus, unless I choose to keep a bad hand, I am able to survive well if my opponent tries to grief me instead of winning.

Regarding my SB, since I made the decision to cut Ancient Tombs for Inkmoth, I felt that Chalice became much weaker for me to use as a SB card. However, my goal with SBing for Affinity has always to devote the SB to fighting combo, and I intend to do that. However, with less emphasis on beating Storm really well, I have decided to try a heavy discard package so that I can really pound Show and Tell decks while still not scooping to Storm. I don't feel that graveyard decks are something to worry about, but I am trying my graveyard hate package to see if it lopsides my Reanimator matchup. I still run 2 Relic alongside the 3 Crypt so that I can use Relics against something like RUG or Jund.

The Pithing Needle is there instead of Revoker because I really, really, really, want to stop Umezawa's Jitte. I don't believe Phyrexian Revoker is a safe answer to Jitte, because unlike Death & Taxes, you don't have any complimentary strategies that make it more inconvenient for the opponent to get rid of Revoker (i.e. Thalia, Mother of Runes) besides applying pure aggression, so I want to be able to place my trust on a card that provides more certainty against the one card that potentially devastates my deck.

AggroSteve

12-12-2013, 08:57 PM

hmm, i have to admit i never thought of buried ruins before, could be really intresting, specially since we depend on plating a big time

on the other hand the arguement for academy ruins to survive jace ultimate striked me hard, never thought of that as well, lovely interaction, really

cabal therapy is really awesome in this deck, but i think its performance is even better in the non-SFM builds, because there are a lot more cheap threats (generally i love cabal therapy, its the most potent discard spell if you know how to play it right..... yes even better than thoughtseize IMO)

one thing i was wondering about is that i do not see anyone using frogmite anymore, what would be your reason to not use him, i actually think he is still very good, specially if you also run ancient tomb
he surely is not the best threat we can run, but he still is really good for the aggro-plan of the deck and will mostly land on 1st turn

what are your thoughts on frogmite, and what cards would be best running together with frogmite (pest and master come to my mind to make him more of a threat)

the other thing that i have been wondering is, why so few people use master anymore, well yes he is a dumb beater unlike ravager, but he is still powerfull, specially in the swarm-style affinity builds

last thing i was thinking about is if it would be possible running cabal therapy and chalice in the sideboard even if they really do not like each other
what matchups is cabal therapy better, what matchups is chalice better
against storm it is possible to use both, if you use chalice on 0 but outside of that i do not feel like there is a matchup you would want both, or am i wrong (have to admit i did not test both at the same time, and the use of cabal therapy in this deck is a bit different from using it in Junk/Rock, which is the deck i play the most)

Draconicsteel

12-12-2013, 10:15 PM

I really like the idea of Tidehollow Sculler, so I think I might try him out, myself. You get to strip whatever you want from their hand, without having to name it beforehand, and it's another artifact to boost what you've got. Useful against both Storm and Show and Tell. And I agree about the combo hate in the SB - I commonly bring in at least 10 cards, if not more, for any given combo deck. And I do agree with making the Show and Tell match a little better - I've found that I want to bring in more, but there's nothing else left in my side. But I also love Canonist a lot, and she can also be useful in other match-ups, randomly, so I'll play around with Sculler and figure out where to fit him. Apparently there's a legacy tournament in my area this weekend, so I'll try out Sculler and let you know what I think.

I don't think you need 5 pieces devoted for gy hate, though. Like you said, I don't think gy decks right now are that much to worry about, and I think choosing either Relic or Crypt is sufficient. I played with Relic for a long time, and I preferred that over Crypt, primarily because it replaces itself, but I'm working with RiP right now, because it just seems so good. A gy deck HAS to deal with that first before continuing any part of their win plan, whereas for Crypt and Relic, they can bait. RiP just seems more solid and reliable. And much more crippling.

I keep going back and forth between Revoker and Needle, myself, but I also return to Revoker. Having an extra body is pretty nice, even if he is a target for a lot of removal. And also, my Revokers are foil and my Needles are not. That's a good reason, right? Right? Although, to be fair, two more reasons I keep going back to Revoker: LED and Deathrite.

Frogmite - I can't decide on what I think about that guy. I ran it for a little bit, and it was kinda neat to be on more a swarm plan game one, and then I figured he was an easy side out games two and/or three. Supposedly, he's a free 2/2 in our deck, making him a little better than Memnite, but I found he was often too inconsistent. And I'm pretty sure I replaced him straight up with Signal Pest, which is, in my opinion, absolutely the better card. Whether you want to run Pest or SFM (or both, in my case) is another thing, but I think Pest is definitely the better choice between it and Frogmite.

As I said in my previous post, I love Master. If he isn't answered, he will win you the game. I've considered going up to a fourth Master, as I saw a lot of older decklists had done, but at the end of the day, he's just as vulnerable to things like Ancient Grudge or, you know, that bad card called Abrupt Decay.

Shawon

12-12-2013, 10:25 PM

Tidehollow Sculler was the reason I beat Sneak-Show in my top 8 at the Newington GPT. After he main phased Brainstorm, I draw a mox Opal, make four mana, cast Ravager, cast Sculler, first trigger on stack, sacrifice Sculler to Ravager, second trigger resolves, first trigger resolves. Show and Tell is exiled forever :cool:.

SirTylerGalt

12-13-2013, 02:44 AM

Leaving A Legacy: Affinity At #SCGOAK, by Ian Anderson:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27511_Leaving-A-Legacy-Affinity-At-SCGOAK.html

jseed

12-13-2013, 03:22 AM

Ian Anderson's article is great, hopefully we will see him post a result in Vegas this weekend.

Anyway, how I think about affinity is that the goal is to beat the fair decks, which are very popular right now. I want to build affinity in such a way that cards like TNN, goyf, lightning bolt, plow, daze, and other format staples have a minimal impact. Affinity is soft to combo and sweepers. Given a little hate I think combo is winnable matchup. However, if TNN takes off and people start putting lots of sweepers in their decks and things like RUG disappear, then affinity is going to have a tough time. That said people have posted a lot of stuff since I was last in here so I'll post some quick thoughts on cards given my perspective on the deck.

SFM: Still don't like it. It seems like we are pretty firmly in two camps here so I'll just say a really important consideration when playing affinity is your cheap artifact count. Whenever you add non-artifact spells or expensive spells you increase your risk to mulligan. In addition, with only 4 colored artifact lands, 4 opal, 4 drum, and maybe one other colored source you definitely aren't guaranteed to hit your mana.

Disciple of the Vault: I think this guy is pretty terrible. Sure with ravager you can sometimes shorten your clock a turn. Without ravager he does nothing. Galvanic blast would be better. In addition he has no evasion so he can't carry plating well, he'll run into goyfs or TNNs all day. He doesn't turn on opal and you can't cast him off an ancient tomb. I want my cheap guys to fly at the least. Also he's the goggles against a terminus.

Inkmoth Nexus vs Ancient Tomb: I really think it is vs because I think you need 12 artifact lands. One thing people don't talk about is using ancient tomb to play around daze or spell pierce. It of course really helps casting Tezz or Chalice on 1, but it's pretty powerful to have a card that essentially blanks daze, helps vs a thalia, and maybe even let's you get by spell pierce on plating.

Land Counts: I think 17 land is optimal, 16 is cutting it a little tight. If you run well and can put less land in your deck good on you, but I think with anything less than 16 lands and 8 accelerants you're just going to mulligan too much.

Shawon

12-13-2013, 11:30 AM

SFM: Still don't like it. It seems like we are pretty firmly in two camps here so I'll just say a really important consideration when playing affinity is your cheap artifact count. Whenever you add non-artifact spells or expensive spells you increase your risk to mulligan. In addition, with only 4 colored artifact lands, 4 opal, 4 drum, and maybe one other colored source you definitely aren't guaranteed to hit your mana.

I've been on both camps, just so you know. If you really dig back 20 pages back in 2012, I ridiculed people who brought up SFM, you know, like "Why not just play Steelshaper's Gift LOL?" I sounded like an idiot back then. Then Abrupt Decay & Deathrite Shaman came along, I tried a 1-of SFM, then a 2-of... and you know the rest. So I understand exactly why you think Stoneforge Mystic is bad, because I was sitting in your chair a year ago.

That said, nothing you have said is really accurate once you start playing with SFM. You are grasping at straws saying the deck runs into problems casting SFM. The only negative impact Stoneforge Mystic has on your own mulligans is not being able to chain Thoughtcasts on turn 1 or set up a Zerg rush on turn 2, both of which scenarios are usually idealistic "nut hand" scenarios. Other than that, Stoneforge Mystic actually improves your mulligans, even if you only run Plating as your only Equipment, because it removes your dependency on just drawing Plating naturally to make use of your hands. It gets even better when you include more targets for SFM, because those Equipment can either assist you in casting your cards (Mantle if you have no access to :u:, happens a lot) or just force your opponent to address SFM (Batterskull) as a red herring to distract attention from whatever creature you are going to equip with Plating. You say you don't want to worry about Lightning Bolt? SFM helps you do this, much better than Signal Pest.

Inkmoth Nexus vs Ancient Tomb: I really think it is vs because I think you need 12 artifact lands. One thing people don't talk about is using ancient tomb to play around daze or spell pierce. It of course really helps casting Tezz or Chalice on 1, but it's pretty powerful to have a card that essentially blanks daze, helps vs a thalia, and maybe even let's you get by spell pierce on plating.

That's really only it. Ancient Tomb makes your broken hands more broken, and it's a beast against Daze/taxing effects, everyone knows this. But sometimes the speed of Tomb doesn't matter in the long run against games that take it to the lategame, like any midrange deck. I want to be able to stay in the late game long enough, which is why I like upping my threat density. Plus, I also want to be able to steal games against combo or against any opponent who thinks the only way I can use Ravager is if I'm going for an alpha strike, which is why I like Inkmoth over Ancient Tomb. It's so easy to dismiss Inkmoth because Wasteland exists, which makes it more surprising for your opponent, and more rewarding for me, when I'm able to win with an Infect kill.

PJC

12-13-2013, 01:54 PM

Hi all, I'm relatively new to the site and the format but have taken a particular interest in Affinity and the Rock. I've built a deck based on a lot of the information you have all presented here. Just for the record, I'm currenly pro-SFM and am running 4 copies. I agree that the increased access to plating and/or batterskull has really stood out, at least in the short time I have been playing the deck. I had cut pest to fit SFM.

Just had a thought today and wanted to see if it had been previously considered and get your opinions. Has anyone tried running STP in a version of Affinity? I'm think it could be good for a few reasons: 1) its cheap, 2) good defensive weapon and most importantly 3) we could use it on our selves as a way to facilitate on the fly transfers of counters from ravanger to skirge or champion. Attack with a champion or skirge sac a bunch of artifats to ravanger then STP it. Has anyone experimented with someting like that?

Shawon

12-13-2013, 01:57 PM

We have Dispatch instead of STP.

3) we could use it on our selves as a way to facilitate on the fly transfers of counters from ravanger to skirge or champion. Attack with a champion or skirge sac a bunch of artifats to ravanger then STP it. Has anyone experimented with someting like that?

Why would you want to ever do this?

Asmahasmalaria

12-14-2013, 02:11 PM

Shawon

12-14-2013, 02:28 PM

Nice technique, but just because i am curious: Why did you need that play?

I didn't need to sacrifice Sculler at all, because he didn't even SB against me. I did need Sculler to get that Show and Tell out of my opponent's hand, though, so I could freely put him on a two-turn clock next turn. The point is, all any combo deck has to do to get the card, exiled from Sculler, back is to remove Sculler. The trick with Sculler precludes the opponent from ever getting their exiled card back. It's nice to have, but it's not the justification for why Sculler is in the SB.

Asmahasmalaria

12-14-2013, 02:37 PM

I didn't need to sacrifice Sculler at all, because he didn't even SB against me. I did need Sculler to get that Show and Tell out of my opponent's hand, though, so I could freely put him on a two-turn clock next turn. The point is, all any combo deck has to do to get the card, exiled from Sculler, back is to remove Sculler. The trick with Sculler precludes the opponent from ever getting their exiled card back. It's nice to have, but it's not the justification for why Sculler is in the SB.

Ok so you didnt know wheather he boarded a pyroclasm (or whatever) or not and you wanted to make sure the show and tell stays gone?

Shawon

12-14-2013, 02:41 PM

Exactly.

AggroSteve

12-14-2013, 03:24 PM

i was thinking about the following thing

what would our changes be to the deck if more and more decks in the format start using golgari charm or something likely to get rid of TNN be, because golgari charm/zealos persecution almost singlehandedly kills of all our small dudes

ravager is a natural answer to that, but still i think that this is not going to be enough in the future once the format changes into anti X/1 spells
stoneforge should be fine as well here, but what other options do we have?

IMO it may become necessary to look into Master of Etherium again and maybe also frogmite even if both do not have evasion
but what would the cuts be? signal pest? skirge?

what do u guys think?

Shawon

12-14-2013, 06:03 PM

I don't think we're at that point yet. Regardless, I've dealt with Zealous Persecution before, such as last year when Esper Stoneblade packed Lingering Souls. Cards like Zealous Persecution are good reasons why Signal Pest makes Affinity very vulnerable when it tries to go for a swarm plan, which is why I feel Signal Pest shouldn't be bothered with because it's very easy for your opponent to counter that plan.

Why wouldn't Ravager be enough? Ravager -> Champion is still a powerful play. Tezzeret, too. Then again, it's like I said, I think having a higher threat density is more important than more explosive hands if midrange decks like Esper Stoneblade or Bant push back tempo decks, which is why I think Inkmoth Nexus is better for the deck than Ancient Tomb, only if you know how to use Ravager with Inkmoth sufficiently.

AggroSteve

12-14-2013, 07:41 PM

sure ravager is awesome in that specific situation, but still, ravager can sometimes be a bit suicidal if the opponent knows exactly what he is doing and forces you to use ravager to get a bit of value out of that situation, and if our opponent abuses that situation it can blow us out of the game

signal pest is surely not a card i like a lot, and yes i think signal pest makes the deck a lot more vulnerable to hate
stoneforge mystic is in fact really good in this slot, but arent there other options aside of mystic?

Final Fortune

12-15-2013, 06:23 AM

I don't think Sculler is a good idea, mainly because you're putting all of your anti-combo eggs into the discard basket. I think cards like Meddling Mage or Phyrexian Revoker could be better in addittion to Cabal Therapy, mainly because if you're already mini Mind Twisting them you should probably be protecting yourself from their top decks.

Golgari Charm isn't a big deal, I think you just have to be careful about over commtting with the swarm plan, tho' I don't know if that makes the whole Scourge/Champion builds any better really. Also cough, Disciple cough.

Draconicsteel

12-15-2013, 10:37 AM

Our deck shouldn't be too afraid of anti-X/1 spells. In fact, I put some Zealous Persecutions in my own board, which in itself is answer to a Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm. But all of our big guys don't care. And if your guys are going to die, just sac them all to Ravager or something. I also play Masters (2), though, because I just think his threat level is too good to be ignored.

I top 8'd at the tournament yesterday with quite a few changes to the deck. Went back up to 4 Ravager, dumped Signal Pest, added Ancient Tombs, went up to 3 Tezz. Tried Persecution and Sculler in the board. I liked Persecution and brought it in for a good amount of match-ups, didn't need Sculler that much, so I can't really say how much I like him or not. I went 4-1, drew in to top 8. Beat Death and Taxes, Lands, Merfolk, and Shardless BUG. And lost to Infect? I didn't even think that was a deck. Death and Taxes and Merfolk should be in our favor anyway, but the three of Tezz definitely helped against Lands, so in that respect, I like the Ancient Tombs. Shardless BUG is always a competitive match-up, but again, Tezz helps and after side we should have a leg up, as long as you have good gy hate for Goyf and Deathrite, the only real things we're scared of in that deck. Don't know if he had Tombstalker in his deck or not. Lost to Elves first round in Top 8, but I lost game 2 to my own dumb mistake, who knows how game 3 would have gone.

I really like one of Jitte main board, by the way - helps shore up the fair matches. Against Merfolk game one, I landed a SFM, searched up Jitte, resolved Champion, and next turn when I attacked he just scooped. Jitte just kills so many other decks, I definitely prefer that over a mainboard Batterskull.

I mainly just need to learn when to go all in and when to play it safe, but overall, I'm not disappointed yet by going back up to 4 Ravager and dumping the Signal Pest.

Also, while the card itself may be retarded, I kind of like what TNN has done for the format. The number of fair decks has been significantly increased, and our deck is generally really good, or at least very competitive with, fair decks.

Final Fortune

12-15-2013, 04:50 PM

I actually think the most annoying thing about Golgari Charm is that it blows up Rest and Peace, fuck is that really irritating because some of our best hate cards are enchantments. I may go back to Relics after this weekend just because of that stupid swiss army knife of a card.

Darkenslight

12-15-2013, 05:14 PM

Shawon

12-15-2013, 06:53 PM

Our deck shouldn't be too afraid of anti-X/1 spells. In fact, I put some Zealous Persecutions in my own board, which in itself is answer to a Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm. But all of our big guys don't care. And if your guys are going to die, just sac them all to Ravager or something. I also play Masters (2), though, because I just think his threat level is too good to be ignored.

SB Persecution is pretty interesting. How did it work out against The Nemesis?

I really like one of Jitte main board, by the way - helps shore up the fair matches. Against Merfolk game one, I landed a SFM, searched up Jitte, resolved Champion, and next turn when I attacked he just scooped. Jitte just kills so many other decks, I definitely prefer that over a mainboard Batterskull.

When I tested MD Jitte, what I didn't like about it was that if you are resetting your offense, Jitte isn't particular stellar if you are starting from ground zero. This is why I decided to keep Batterskull instead of Jitte, because with Batterskull, it is always a creature no matter what. Jitte is amazing when it connects, but without any charge counters on it, you can't equip something like Ornithopter or Signal Pest and expect to gain any counters. Jitte is still good, but I've had so many hit-or-miss moments with Jitte that I decided to not bother with it.

Although, I have been wondering if we could consider a Sword of X&Y, especially in the Tomb lists, preferably one that grants protection from blue. What are your thoughts? I think a blue Sword is a good way to race The Nemesis while adding some muscle. Do you think Fire & Ice is the way to go, or Body & Mind?

Also, while the card itself may be retarded, I kind of like what TNN has done for the format. The number of fair decks has been significantly increased, and our deck is generally really good, or at least very competitive with, fair decks.

I think the only way The Nemesis directly affects Affinity is that no matter many creatures you have to protect Tezz, if an opponent has TNN already in play, your opponent can stop you from activating the ultimate simply by safely attacking Tezz. It's not a big deal, but that caveat should be noted.

Draconicsteel

12-15-2013, 11:03 PM

I think the only way The Nemesis directly affects Affinity is that no matter many creatures you have to protect Tezz, if an opponent has TNN already in play, your opponent can stop you from activating the ultimate simply by safely attacking Tezz. It's not a big deal, but that caveat should be noted.

Fair point. And, of course, TNN with Batterskull is something of an issue, but nothing except a board wipe can deal with that.

I didn't actually run in to too much Nemesis this weekend, but I brought Persecution in for Merfolk and Elves. Never saw it against Elves, unfortunately, but it would have been a board wipe. The Merfolk player didn't get to his TNN, and I think I somehow missed the other decks that ran it.

The other plus that Jitte has, and one of the reasons I run it over Batterskull, is if your SFM dies, you can still reliably cast Jitte. With Tomb, it's easier to get Batterskull out, but still not really reliable, especially if you turn 1 or 2 the SFM, only to have it die before you can use it.

Hm, a Sword would be interesting, might be worth testing out with Tomb in the deck. I think Fire and Ice is heads and tails better than Body and Mind. B&M doesn't have any synergy with the deck - what do we care about a random wolf and milling for 10? - but 2 more damage with an aggro deck and another draw engine? Can you imagine that thing on a Champion? Nuts. Even without any other boosts, that would be 6 damage to the face per turn, and an extra draw. I think that might be worth looking into.

Shawon

12-16-2013, 12:26 PM

While we're on the subject of 3cc Equipments, what are your thoughts on Grafted Wargear? It's also been on the back of my mind as of late. I like that it's Equip cost is 0, which makes it pretty fast damage the moment you resolve it. However, it is quite risky to run a card with such potential for blowback in a format where people love Abrupt Decay.

Asmahasmalaria

12-16-2013, 02:10 PM

Although, I have been wondering if we could consider a Sword of X&Y, especially in the Tomb lists, preferably one that grants protection from blue. What are your thoughts? I think a blue Sword is a good way to race The Nemesis while adding some muscle. Do you think Fire & Ice is the way to go, or Body & Mind?

If i would take one of both, it would definetly be fire and ice. But do we really need to do something to race the TNN? I d rather say without an equipment on TNN we win the race anyway and to solve this problem we can use manriki gusari. Although somehow i like the thought of sword and fire and ice. But i am not sure if i would want it in my maindeck.

Shawon

12-16-2013, 02:33 PM

I should've phrased differently, but no, I didn't mean to imply we had any problems with racing The Nemesis. What I was trying to get at was that a blue Sword could be a way to strongarm blue aggro-control decks while making The Nemesis less relevant, and I also like the idea of boosting Etched Champion's toughness to resist an unexpected strike with Jitte. I have never tested Swords before, so I'm not sure if Jitte would be a better choice than a blue Sword, or if a blue Sword is a nice supplement to Jitte. I guess testing is the only way to find out!

AggroSteve

12-16-2013, 04:08 PM

I think that graftet wargear could be an option for us, and i also think it would be a better option than any other equipment (outside of plating) because of the speed it could provide
i was also thinking about flayer husk and bonesplitter for exactly that reason
it would lessen our dependance on plating or SFM to search up plating
i also thought of rancor but sadly that one does not work with champion

the problem in my eyes is what would you want to cut in any list for how many other equipments

Draconicsteel

12-16-2013, 06:47 PM

I don't like Grafted Wargear, Flayer Husk, or Bonesplitter. I think Grafted Wargear is simply too risky and too fragile. It's basically giving the opponent extra removal. If they Abrupt Decay, or Disenchant, or Pridemage, or SHattering Spree, or what have you, your creature dies, too. Those are not two for one odds that I like. Especially because if you put it in those terms, you would NEVER want to equip Champion with Wargear, that would practically hand the opponent the game, and Champion is the best equipable creature we have. There are also situations where, using equipment, you want swing with an attacker, then put it on a blocker. Even if it's just a Fire and Ice, a 2/4 Ornithopter with pro UR seems like a decent blocker, especially if you're facing something like Delver. Even better, swing with a Jitte, then put Jitte on a Thopter to discourage their Goyf from attacking. Our other options are simply too much better, and Wargear isn't worth the speed.

Saying cards like Flayer Husk and Bonesplitter are faster are like saying that Memnite is faster. Yes, this is a true statement. But Memnite by itself will not win you the game. A creature with either of those equipments is simply unimpressive. By running those over pretty much anything else we could opt for, we're really just helping our opponents beat us. Think about it - Jitte only costs 1 more than Husk to equip (a 1/1 for 1 is a bad trade in Legacy - I'd rather run Frogmite for those odds) and 2 more than Bonesplitter. But for that extra mana, you are either 1) Putting your opponent on a much faster clock, 2) Removing any threat that could stop you, or 3) Stopping yourself from dying. None of which the other two do, and all for another 2 mana that you could even pay for on the next turn.

Shawon

12-16-2013, 07:19 PM

Very well said, Will!

AggroSteve

12-17-2013, 06:41 AM

I am aware pf all thosr situations, and specially the one with wargear on champion sucks
flayer husk is not worth it as well, but i will try bonesplitter, and running fromites instead of pest but this is probably not good as well

i am basically just testing some options because i dislike pest a bit, because it is lnly usefull if you got at least 2 other creatures on board or 2 pests on the field, but want to run red instead of white for whipflare in the board due to meta of maverick, D&T, goblins....

The performance of pest is often underwhelming and way to situational for my taste, it is overwhelming only if you are able to lay down apl 7 cards in your 1st turn, but that is like going all in

EDIT: wargear was allready discarded after a bit of testing... It is inconsistent and every time worse than any other option we have
even a master of etherium which i find sometimes slow and clunky is far better

Final Fortune

12-17-2013, 07:48 AM

I think you have to contextualize Signal Pest, it's kind of like Goblin Lackey in the sense that it's either just a 1/1 or it steals the game if left unchecked. So far I've really liked the synergy between Signal Pest, Master of Etherium and Inkmoth Nexus tho', the poison win is pretty hilarious.

Shawon

12-17-2013, 07:59 AM

I have definitely said to myself many a time that connecting Signal Pest felt like connecting with Lackey, but Signal Pest is no Lackey since it doesn't actually give you any card advantage like Lackey -> Ringleader. Sometimes the damage from Pest isn't significant if you have no way to outlast your opponent's removal, e.g. Punishing Fire as one example. Speaking of Punishing Fire, I remember I said to myself a few months ago that testing the Jund matchup was an excellent way to gauge the resiliency of my Affinity deck due to the level of attrition that deck packs. It's actually matchups like Jund that I'm not fond of Phyrexian Revoker MD, because I rightfully got my ass kicked by Jund Game 1 where my Phrexian Revoker did nothing to actually stop Liliana from wrecking me.

Final Fortune

12-21-2013, 01:58 AM

Besides Combo, I think Jund and Miracles are just this deck's natural predators. They're by no means a hopeless matchup, but you are ice skating up hill.

Asmahasmalaria

12-21-2013, 06:06 AM

Has anybody experiences with meddling mage as a sideboard plan against sneak attack? I think it might be a solid option.

Shawon

12-21-2013, 08:05 AM

The thing about Meddling Mage that I have noticed with using Tidehollow Sculler is that when you need them right away, sometimes you just won't be able to cast them. I'm still using 2 Sculler, but I'm leaning toward using more 1-drop discard now, such as a 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Therapy.

Thoughts on Specter's Shroud? It feels very janky, but I might try it as a 1-of in the SB since I can SFM for it.

Anyone tested out SoFI yet? I am still trying to tune up the Tomb list to accommodate SoFI; I think it's too slow in my Inkmoth list.

Draconicsteel

12-21-2013, 10:11 AM

I think Sculler's got the advantage over Meddling Mage in that it just has more synergy with the deck. Given the choice, I think I'd prefer Sculler over Mage just for that option, because, especially if you already run SFM, you don't want to water the deck down with too many non-artifacts. Mage obviously has more versatility, though.

If you're thinking of something like Specter's Shroud, why not do Sword of Feast and Famine? We were talking about using a Sword, anyway. I think I'll stick with the Scullers or Therapies, personally, though I am going to try out a Fire and Ice over Jitte main and see how I like it.

Final Fortune - that's one of the reasons I decided to go back up to 4 Champions. Champion is undeniably our best card in those match-ups. I have so far not been disappointed by this decision.

Asmahasmalaria

12-21-2013, 12:57 PM

I dont think specters shroud is a good choice. It has too less impact compared to other equipment you could get with sfm. SOFF doesnt do the trick either in my eyes. It takes too long until you can let the opponent discard something and you dont get to pick the card. If a sword is worth playing then SOFI.

Final Fortune

12-21-2013, 02:30 PM

Shawon

12-22-2013, 11:18 AM

You can't use just 1cc discard vs Sneak&Show because of Leyline of Sanctity, if they don't SB it in for game 2 then they will SB it in for game 3 for certain. After 4 Cabal Therapy, I'd rather play anything other than another discard spell, you have to diversify your angles of attack vs combo so no single card like Defense Grid or Pyroclasm can shut you down.

I've got nothing against Etched Champion and I understand why people play it, it's really Vault Scourge that gets the majority of my ire because it's completely worthless without Cranial Plating.

I'll take my chances against white Leyline, however many S&S players choose not to run it. I'm no expert on S&S, but I think white Leyline is generally a meta call and it seems to be bad SB card anyway because the only way to find it outside of your opening 7 is to mulligan into it.

FYI, the heavy discard plan is a strategy I am also attempting to use against Cloudpost decks. Speaking of which, has anyone done any substantial testing against that deck? Aside from their general plan A of ramping, we need a way to beat their Plan B of "Show and Tell?" and the only strategy I can think of that can put a stop to it while being useful against combo decks is heavy discard.

I'm actually toying with Vault Skirge's slot. After cutting Signal Pest, and now upping to 4 Mystics, Vault Skirge is the next slot I'm toying with. I still think it's awesome with Ravager/Plating and it's great at fixing Drums/Opals, but I want to add more power to the deck, so I am trying to see if I can finally test SoFI in my Inkmoth list in place of the 3rd Skirge.

Asmahasmalaria

12-22-2013, 01:29 PM

FYI, the heavy discard plan is a strategy I am also attempting to use against Cloudpost decks. Speaking of which, has anyone done any substantial testing against that deck? Aside from their general plan A of ramping, we need a way to beat their Plan B of "Show and Tell?" and the only strategy I can think of that can put a stop to it while being useful against combo decks is heavy discard.

How about meddling mage? XD I know sometimes you may not be able to cast it because of its WU mana requirement but thats also true for tezzeret.Yeah i know he kills people and stuff but meddling mage should do fine against other matchups as well, especially combo. I think its better to play him and take the risk of mana problems than to get countered by a white leyline.
I didnt know cloudpost was a real deck you have to worry about when you create your SB. Do they play it often in your area?

Shawon

12-22-2013, 02:14 PM

How about meddling mage? XD I know sometimes you may not be able to cast it because of its WU mana requirement but thats also true for tezzeret.Yeah i know he kills people and stuff but meddling mage should do fine against other matchups as well, especially combo. I think its better to play him and take the risk of mana problems than to get countered by a white leyline.
I didnt know cloudpost was a real deck you have to worry about when you create your SB. Do they play it often in your area?

The difference between Tezz and Meddling Mage/Tidehollow Sculler is that you can wait to cast Tezz since it's four mana anyways. If you need to cast MM/TS on turn 2 and you can't, that's a bummer.

Cloudpost is probably the most expensive deck in Legacy, yet THREE PEOPLE IN CT play the goddamned deck, including the infamous Rock Lee who wrote the Turbo Eldrazi thread in The Source. The same GPT I beat my only loss in the Swiss (Sneak-Show) in the top 8, I lost to Rock Lee in the semifinals. He won via Show&Tell->Primeval Titan. Game 2, I get a turn 1 Chalice @1, and he STILL WINS off of Show and Tell -> Titan. There are two tournaments in a row next month and I'm pretty sure either Rock Lee or Tim Harding will be there with Post decks, so yeah I definitely need to test SB options against what's probably my worst control match, even more so than Miracles!

Darkenslight

12-22-2013, 02:45 PM

The difference between Tezz and Meddling Mage/Tidehollow Sculler is that you can wait to cast Tezz since it's four mana anyways. If you need to cast MM/TS on turn 2 and you can't, that's a bummer.

Cloudpost is probably the most expensive deck in Legacy, yet THREE PEOPLE IN CT play the goddamned deck, including the infamous Rock Lee who wrote the Turbo Eldrazi thread in The Source. The same GPT I beat my only loss in the Swiss (Sneak-Show) in the top 8, I lost to Rock Lee in the semifinals. He won via Show&Tell->Primeval Titan. Game 2, I get a turn 1 Chalice @1, and he STILL WINS off of Show and Tell -> Titan. There are two tournaments in a row next month and I'm pretty sure either Rock Lee or Tim Harding will be there with Post decks, so yeah I definitely need to test SB options against what's probably my worst control match, even more so than Miracles!

Deathmark? It also hits DRS, most of D&T, so it's probably a meta call, but if you need it, it's cheap.

Shawon

12-22-2013, 03:00 PM

I like your thinking, however Dispatch is probably better than Deathmark, since it can also hit 2 of the 3 legendary Eldrazi, excluding Emrakul ofc. Or if you hate Emrakul that much, you can consider running Shriekmaw, and look at that, it has fear!!!

I have considered running Dispatch in the SB. It's pretty applicable against Reanimator as well, aside from your fair creature matchups. But like I said, I want to run cards that are live against both Post and combo, and discard is the only strategy that seems feasible.

Asmahasmalaria

12-22-2013, 04:38 PM

How about blood moon against post?

Shawon

12-22-2013, 06:05 PM

It's been tried and done, by me.

Final Fortune

12-22-2013, 07:09 PM

Even if you're not capable of dropping a UW or BW creature consistently on T2, I still think you should use something like 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Flusterstorm before 8 discard effects because you're less reliant on finding one specific land for all of your disruption and you're only half way in with discard vs Leyline.

There's also some old school favorites to take a look at, like Chains of Mephistophelese or maybe Eye of Chaos.

Shawon

12-22-2013, 10:20 PM

Draconicsteel

12-22-2013, 11:30 PM

If Sneak and Show mulligans into a Leyline against Affinity, then they're probably already losing. If I was that player, I wouldn't even bring it in. Against something like Jund, that's very reasonable, but not really against Affinity. It's just not worth it against our deck. I remember one time I stripped four cards from a Sneak and Show player (called Show and Tell, got two of them, flashed Therapy back to get two Brainstorms), but that's the ideal scenario, it isn't going to happen like that very often. I think them siding in Leyline against us would just be watering the deck down.

I'm not sure how I feel about any counter magic in the side, but Flusterstorm wouldn't be the right one, for the reasons Shawon pointed out. I saw some lists trying out Spell Pierce, but I'd rather play something that forces the opponents to respond to it. Storm or Elves can't win with Canonist on board. Dredge just stops until they respond to RiP, and RiP seriously hinders threats like Goyf, Deathrite, and Knight. Even Therapy can be crippling if played correctly and not responded to. Also factor in that cards like Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce are really easy to play around if you're expecting them. Just like our deck can often ignore Daze, a Sneak and Show player has access to the mana to wait.

I tried playing Dispatch for a little bit, because it seemed awesome in Affinity, but I found that I wanted to jam more threats instead. And RiP is simply much deadlier against decks like Reanimator, while also having applications for several different decks. Also, RiP deals with multiple threats simultaneously, while Dispatch can only ever get one.

Final Fortune

12-23-2013, 01:27 AM

Flusterstorm can't deal with Sneak Attack, and since we have no other instants to complement Flusterstorm, an opponent can simply wait to cast S&T with two mana floating.

I think the fear I'm noticing about Leyline of Sanctity is overblown. It's a fringe playable SB card, and mulliganing into it just to stop my discard is a strategy I'm fine with going up against, because I still have a fast clock. I think the idea of using a variety of cards that have individual uses against specific combo pieces, say Phyrexian Revoker or Flusterstorm, is nice in theory, but their use depends on the opponent taking a line of play that you are hoping they take. I don't want to care about what specific combo piece my opponent has, so I'd rather use a variety of cards that all contribute to one singular strategy, rather than a variety of cards with singular purposes, and I think I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that the only way my opponent can counteract my strategy is adding more resiliency in the form of more cantrips/Top or mulliganing into an uncastable enchantment.

I really think you're ignorant of how many combo decks play Leyline of Sanctity and how little they have to try to stop your discard with Leyline of Sanctity in addition to all of the other Force of Will, Daze, Misdirection, Spell Pierce etc. they play. Go look at other discussions regarding diversifying disruption vs Leyline of Sanctity, especially in the TES thread, and you'll see how much other players take it seriously. Because it sounds like you're making judgements based on your own particular metagame and not something more diverse like online or a Starcity.

If you don't want to play Flusterstorm then play Spell Pierce, but I think having an uncounterable answer to Show&Tell is much better than having a counterable answer to either Show&Tell or Sneak Attack because you can race the latter. The thing about Cabal Therapy and Flusterstorm is that they can't just counter either of them with a Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Spell Pierce etc. and go off. Affinity isn't exactly the best aggro-control deck post-board, so you need cards that are even more powerful than the Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce of RUG to win the counter war and that's pretty much Flusterstorm's bill.

And God in heaven I hope the opponent starts to wait two additional turns in order to go off with Show&Tell, because there's no better deck in the format to go all in with Ravager/Disciple against.

Shawon

12-23-2013, 11:53 PM

I really think you're ignorant of how many combo decks play Leyline of Sanctity and how little they have to try to stop your discard with Leyline of Sanctity in addition to all of the other Force of Will, Daze, Misdirection, Spell Pierce etc. they play. Go look at other discussions regarding diversifying disruption vs Leyline of Sanctity, especially in the TES thread, and you'll see how much other players take it seriously. Because it sounds like you're making judgements based on your own particular metagame and not something more diverse like online or a Starcity.

I know how the card works, and how it plays against Jund and Storm, but none of that is relevant to how it affects Affinity. Leyline of Sanctity doesn't have the same impact on the matchup as it does against Jund or Storm, because both of those decks are significantly hampered by a white Leyline whereas the only cards I run that would be rendered useless would be 6 discard spells (Sculler is still a 2/2 bear, and it only targets the opponent). My opponent isn't always going to find Leyline, and even if they do, I can still win with a fast clock, which most disruptive decks relying on discard can't do. I have yet to see how my SB plan works against Leyline post-board, but as I said, my testing is ongoing and I'm not going to abandon my strategy before I even test against Leyline, especially when I've already explained to you why I think I'm okay even if I do face it, so I don't see the point of any further discussion on this unless you yourself have tried a heavy discard SB plan in Affinity against Leyline of Sanctity in your testing.

If you don't want to play Flusterstorm then play Spell Pierce, but I think having an uncounterable answer to Show&Tell is much better than having a counterable answer to either Show&Tell or Sneak Attack because you can race the latter. The thing about Cabal Therapy and Flusterstorm is that they can't just counter either of them with a Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Spell Pierce etc. and go off. Affinity isn't exactly the best aggro-control deck post-board, so you need cards that are even more powerful than the Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce of RUG to win the counter war and that's pretty much Flusterstorm's bill.

And God in heaven I hope the opponent starts to wait two additional turns in order to go off with Show&Tell, because there's no better deck in the format to go all in with Ravager/Disciple against.

I have tried Spell Pierce, and it has failed in my testing against Sneak-Show because holding back a counterspell and making sure you're not tapped out buys them too much time. That's how I feel about Flusterstorm, actually, more so than the fact that it can't counter Sneak Attack. Spell Pierce is oddly enough better against Miracles than any combo deck.

A S-S deck doesn't need to wait two additional turns to pay for two extra mana floating, I don't know where I said that. They can play a Lotus Petal the turn before they go off and use their next land drop to have access to two leftover mana after casting Show and Tell. Or just cast Sneak Attack if you're playing Flusterstorm.

Asmahasmalaria

12-24-2013, 06:32 AM

Swan Song might be the answer to the recently discussed problems. It counters every sneak show threat. Its good against nearly every other combo deck. Together with Canonist you can make sure your swan song doesnt get countered. The only weakness i see is against discard spells, for example the cabal therapy most storm lists run. But even if you run the discard package yourself the enemy can still respond to your dicard spell with a brainstorm to hide his combo piece from you and then go off next turn. You might even play a discard spell on your oppenent and he draws his missing combo piece with his regular draw. They way i see it both ways - dicard package on one hand, counters or mm on the other can be outplayed by the combo player without bigger effort. But with swan song you can potentially always hit your target, even when the combo deck topdecks something.

Final Fortune

12-24-2013, 09:50 AM

Ofcourse I've tried it, it's awful, your opponent SBs out his Dazes for his Leylines of Sanctity and you abruptly lose the game if he manages to draw it in his openning hand. What you don't seem to get is that Show&Tell doesn't always have an answer to everything or time to wait to play around your counter spells vs a clock, the deck is notriously inconsistent and running multiple angles of attack instead of a single angle makes certain he can't just play Defense Grid, Leyline of Sanctity or Chain of Vapor but that he has to either play ALL of them or just counter spells which your spells are designed to beat - making his deck even more inconsistent. If you give your opponent your deck list and he only sees discard spells in your SB, you have given him the easiest choice possible. If he sees Flusterstorm, Cabal Therapy and hate bear there's no obvious choice possible. Boo hoo you have to hold back mana, you shouldn't have a card with casting cost above 3 in your deck post-board anyway and holding back mana lets you bluff a counter spell where not playing any counter spells in your 75 doesn't let you bluff anything.

I mean feel free to throw the match up to your heart's content despite knowing the opponent is playing the single most cost efficient answer vs your linear disruption strategy, at least Jund and Storm can excuse themselves for not having any other choice ... only every other deck in the format chooses to differentiate its disruption away from discard post-board vs Show&Tell ... clearly affinity is the exception /facepalm. But oh wait, some versions even play Sensei's Divining Top too ...

Edit: Swang Song is a decent try, I still have concerns about not being able to win the counter war tho'. I suppose each of the 1cc counter spells are going to come up short some where.

Shawon

12-24-2013, 12:52 PM

Psyqo

01-03-2014, 09:35 AM

Quick sideboarding question... looking at the main deck of the top 8 deck at SCG recently, what do you board out to bring Chalice in?

I love the idea of using Ancient Tomb to power out a turn 1 Chalice @ 1, but I don't know if I should side out a combination of Signal Pest or Springleaf Drum (the only 1 CCs I saw in the list) or some other cards?

Shawon

01-03-2014, 10:11 AM

Signal Pest is usually cut for Chalice. Drums can help you cast Chalice, so they stay in. Besides, cutting mana for SB cards is generally a bad idea.

Final Fortune

01-03-2014, 10:40 AM

You say you've "tried" a heavy discard plan (with Affinity? or still talking about TES?) against Leyline, so if you have that much extensive experience, how come you neglected to mention anything on your deck's capability to go into an aggro plan if they drop Leyline? Have you ever beaten Sneak-Show when they did have Leyline when you tried the discard plan? How did Leyline affect the usefulness of Disciple? Just saying your experience was "awful" doesn't provide any insight at all.

For the record, I have tried both Cabal Therapy and Spell Pierce in the past, even at once, and I wasn't satisfied with that plan. It may have do to with the fact that I only ran a total of 6 cards against S&S - I believe in bringing in more - but I still don't think the diversification matters as much as you think it does, because as long as you're running a card that has conditional use, you will still run into those very conditions that make the card bad in the first place, say if you only draw Flusterstorm and they have drop a turn 3 Sneak Attack. The only conditional card that renders my all-in discard plan useless is Leyline of Sanctity. Force of Will does counter my discard, but I don't care about Spell Pierce, Daze or even Misdirection if I'm using either Therapy or Sculler. I've already explained why I'm okay if I run into Leyline. You still use Therapy, so I know you're aware of how useful the proactive approach of using discard to gain information and disrupt the opponent is, therefore I think you can understand why I want to invest in more of that approach because being proactive is more cohesive to the core strategy of Affinity. I don't think I've ever referenced the sitcom "Parks & Recreation" before, but I will quote the manly Ron Swanson: "Don't half-ass two jobs; whole-ass one."

It's funny that you mention Top, because I notice its inclusion in many Sneak-Show lists that actually run 0 Leyline. Honestly, I'd rather go up against S&S with Leyline any day of the deck than Sensei's Divining Top.

Affinity doesn't race Sneak&Show provided the opponent has judicious cards like Force of Will and/or Daze depending on whether or not he's playing first or second, if you know to counter the Phyrexian Ravager or Stoneforge Mystic/Cranial Plating then it's difficult for Affinity to establish a clock. I haven't been able to beat the match up at all without disruption added into the mix and at the moment Cabal Therapy/Swan Song seem to be the best, diverse package available.

Edit: Disciple of the Vault is fine, if I don't give the opponent a reason to SB in Leyline of Sanctity i.e I don't play 8+ discard effects, or any discard effects for that matter, then resolving Disciple of the Vault and Phyrexian Ravager is probably the most consistent way to race the opponent. It happens here or there depending on how they distribute their disruption, if they play Spell Pierce over Daze for example then Disciple of the Vault is pretty savage.

I'm not sure what Sneak&Show lists you're playing against, but Leyline of Sanctity and Sensei's Divining Top aren't mutually exclusive and if there's a counter that targets all of Sneak&Shows targets and doesn't let them shut down your entire disruption strategy with a single card I don't know why you wouldn't play it. "Pro-active" is just loose jargon, the distribution of your mana sources relative to the redundancy of the mana symbols of your disruption is not. You're all in on black mana, that's really bad for aggressive mulliganing.

I could be entirely convinced tho' that the best approach is to just Thorn/Thalia and Chalice and pray it holds.

As a side note I really think I'm done playing with Etched Champion over Master of Etherium, Etched Champion is pretty mediocre without Phyrexian Ravager and unlike Disciple of the Vault you're paying too much for just a bear as opposed to a 1/1 dork that can still play the Drums and draws counters/removal like crazy. Too many times I've just had my opponent Wasteland/Abrupt Decay one of my lands and Lightning Bolted it anyway and it's always behind in the damage race. I'm also kind of torn on Inkmoth vs Blinkmoth, damage is better than poison vs any aggro-control deck from what I've witnessed but I want to keep testing it to be sure.

Shawon

01-03-2014, 02:34 PM

Affinity doesn't race Sneak&Show provided the opponent has judicious cards like Force of Will and/or Daze depending on whether or not he's playing first or second, if you know to counter the Phyrexian Ravager or Stoneforge Mystic/Cranial Plating then it's difficult for Affinity to establish a clock. I haven't been able to beat the match up at all without disruption added into the mix and at the moment Cabal Therapy/Swan Song seem to be the best, diverse package available.

Edit: Disciple of the Vault is fine, if I don't give the opponent a reason to SB in Leyline of Sanctity i.e I don't play 8+ discard effects, or any discard effects for that matter, then resolving Disciple of the Vault and Phyrexian Ravager is probably the most consistent way to race the opponent. It happens here or there depending on how they distribute their disruption, if they play Spell Pierce over Daze for example then Disciple of the Vault is pretty savage.

I'm not sure what Sneak&Show lists you're playing against, but Leyline of Sanctity and Sensei's Divining Top aren't mutually exclusive and if there's a counter that targets all of Sneak&Shows targets and doesn't let them shut down your entire disruption strategy with a single card I don't know why you wouldn't play it. "Pro-active" is just loose jargon, the distribution of your mana sources relative to the redundancy of the mana symbols of your disruption is not. You're all in on black mana, that's really bad for aggressive mulliganing.

The deck can race Sneak-Show infrequently, but there's definitely some likelihood attached so I'm surprised that you say the deck can't race Sneak-Show and moreover you bring up Force of Will as the reason why, as if the reason why the deck primarily loses the matchup has to do with its inability to close out games when the S&S somehow hasn't gone off already and not with the effectiveness of said strategies to stop Sneak-Show from going off. I think it's a strawman point to argue over anyways, because we were discussing SB options, but if you find you're completely unable (maybe you weren't being literal?) to race Sneak-Show, then it could have to do with the way you're taking out cards in the matchup. What is your card-for-card SB configuration against Sneak-Show?

While I have tested Therapy + Pierce against Sneak-Show and wasn't impressed, I guess I can't dismiss Swan Song outright since it is a hard counter unlike Pierce. I think the drawback is a little significant, but considering your side note regarding your change to Master of Etherium, Swan Song's drawback may probably be less significant now.

I could be entirely convinced tho' that the best approach is to just Thorn/Thalia and Chalice and pray it holds.

You are missing Wasteland in that mix to make Thalia any useful against Sneak-Show, so no, Thalia + Chalice is probably not a good approach.

As a side note I really think I'm done playing with Etched Champion over Master of Etherium, Etched Champion is pretty mediocre without Phyrexian Ravager and unlike Disciple of the Vault you're paying too much for just a bear as opposed to a 1/1 dork that can still play the Drums and draws counters/removal like crazy. Too many times I've just had my opponent Wasteland/Abrupt Decay one of my lands and Lightning Bolted it anyway and it's always behind in the damage race. I'm also kind of torn on Inkmoth vs Blinkmoth, damage is better than poison vs any aggro-control deck from what I've witnessed but I want to keep testing it to be sure.

Something must be wrong if you find you lose Metalcraft with Etched Champion, or at least with enough frequency to bring this up as a reason to cut it. I mean, if you are trying to fit in 4 SFM, 4 Disciple, +3 Tezz, and +4 manlands into the same deck, then perhaps it might have to do with the artifacts you are cutting to fit in all of those cards.

I have in the past cut Etched Champions for Masters before, so I can't really judge your decision to make that change although your reasons for doing so are lunacy. However, I'm skeptical with how useful Master of Etherium is now, considering that Snapcaster Mage is back in the metagame and True-Name Nemesis exists now.

Inkmoth is always better than Blinkmoth, because if you are going for an Infect kill, you are pretty much guaranteed two attack steps to Infect kill, no matter how high the opponent's life total is. The only advantage of using Blinkmoth over Inkmoth is if your opponent is close to lethal and you only have one attack step left to close the deal and you have no other nonland creatures to attack for the win, and those scenarios are very one in a few. Inkmoth allows you to win games that you wouldn't otherwise have been capable of winning because their life total was not low enough for you to win before they would have. It's possible to run both, but probably with less copies of Blinkmoth.

Draconicsteel

01-03-2014, 11:02 PM

I think if you lose Metalcraft, it doesn't really matter what card you have over Etched Champion--be it Master, Disciple, or what have you--you're losing the game no matter what. If we don't have Metalcraft, it means that we don't have a board, which means that we can't win.

I've played Master over Champion in the past, but especially since TNN changed the meta, Champion is just too valuable. I can't count the number of times I've lost a Master before ever using it because the opponent had the hard removal. Which should not happen to Champion. I will add that I still like Master a lot, because if he isn't responded to, he will probably win you the game. Also, if you lose Metalcraft and you're thinking of Master over Champion, Master *also dies to that same lightning bolt. Because that means he's a 2/2.

Right now I'm running 4 Therapy and 3 Sculler side. Therapy, I think, has great synergy with the deck, and Sculler is another artifact bear to help out with the deck, too. Although, I do like the idea of varying up the attack pattern. Final Fortune has a point in that it is harder to beat, with the additional advantage of possibly doubling up cards for other match-ups, as well. If you can use a card commonly brought in against Sneak and Show against some other type of deck, its SB value increases. I'm not currently running Revoker, but I always toy with the idea of going back to him, because he's just so versatile. I'm not sure how I feel about Swan Song, but I'd be willing to test it and/or hear/see how it plays out before judging it.

Shawon

01-16-2014, 02:24 PM

I don't know about any of you guys, but despite the holidays, I haven't stopped tweaking and updating Affinity. Since last month, I've been preparing for two big tournaments that are going to held this weekend in Connecticut, and as you may already know from my previous posts, I've been focusing my testing and tweaking on improving my combo matchups as well as my matchup against Cloudpost.

After playing a Legacy weekly on Tuesday, and gaining some more insight on the Cloudpost matchup, I believe this list is what I'm going to settle on this weekend:

4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [MBS] Inkmoth Nexus
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [SOM] Etched Champion
4 [M10] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MMA] Arcbound Ravager
2 [NPH] Vault Skirge
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [MMA] Paradise Mantle
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
SB: 4 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [NPH] Dispatch
SB: 1 [DS] Specter's Shroud
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

Notes from testing for the last month and a half:

- The Thoughtseizes have been amazing. I've shied away from the 8-9 heavy discard plan with using Therapies in addition to TS. Even if I'm not facing Leyline of Sanctity, the Therapies seem like overkill, and I'd rather have Thoughtseizes than Therapies.

- My paranoia regarding graveyard hate has died down, so now I feel pretty safe with 3 dedicated pieces of gy hate. Plus, against Reanimator, I have Dispatch as additional hate.

- Speaking of Dispatch, with the popularity of Dark Depths, I think it's a must in the SB now, unless you are running Pithing Needle to be able to stop both Vampire Hexmage/Thespian's Stage from summoning Marit Lage.

- Specter's Shroud has proven to be sick, and quite hilarious considering it's a $0.25 uncommon. But don't laugh too much, it actually works. The Cloudpost player I faced this week after seeing me play it against him says that it should without a doubt be a 1-of in my SB.

- In my match against Cloudpost, I managed to get my opponent down to 0 cards in hand, however he still won because of Top, and because Top is such a pivotal card in that deck, I knew I needed a way to stop it. Thus, I ended up cutting the Therapies and my 1-of Batterskull for the 3 Revokers. I think the Revokers are solid against Cloudpost since they stop Top (or possibly O-Stone), and furthermore they can carry Equipment like Specter's Shroud. I can't wait to try Revokers against my Cloudpost opponents this weekend.

Has anyone else tested Affinity in the last month? Any findings or results anyone wants to share?

Draconicsteel

01-19-2014, 08:38 PM

Okay, some changes to my main board before questions and/or comments:

-4 Ornithopters and +4 Frogmites. This was inspired by playing Vintage Affinity for the first time, which does not thopters. I know, I know, two different formats, but I figured it was worth trying out, and after my tournament today, I wasn't really disappointed. I think the possible evasion is worth trading for the increased aggression. It also means I can attack into Deathrite, SF, etc.

-4 Vault Skirges and +4 Signal Pest. After thinking about it, I don't like this change. The Pests didn't really do much today that a Vault Skirge couldn't have done, so I'm going back to the Skirge.

1 Ancient Tomb, -1 Academy Ruins, -1 Tezzeret, +3 Revoker. Yes, main board Revoker. Because it's just so versatile. And game one against Esperblade, it was nice to effectively make the Batterskull in his hand a dead card after he fetched it, when I played the Revoker naming SF. And then I played mine, got a Fire and Ice, and promptly beat him in the face with it, because I could still hard cast my equipment.

Which leads me to my last mb change, -1 Jitte for +1 Fire and Ice. Not disappointed about this at all. This is a definite change.

Only thing I changed in sb was -1 Tidehollow Sculler for +1 Manriki Gusari. Which is also really good, so I'm sticking with that, too.

I went 2-4 today, but considering my losses were: Dark Depths, Elves, Sneak and Show, and Maverick (which in game 3 I had to mull to 5), I'm not terribly disappointed with that. And after figuring out that my deck had nothing to interact with that freaking Marit Lage token, I think Shawon's right in that Dispatch is worth trying again, so I'm going to dump the Persecutions and put in Dispatches, instead. Otherwise, the only way I could stop was to outrace him, which I did game two, but then he turn 2'd a Knight game three, and, well, then a 20/20 indestructible happened.

What are thoughts on Grafdigger's Cage vs. Rest in Peace? I really like that RiP takes care of Deathrite and Goyf, which are relevant, but I guess if I'm going back to Dispatch, that can get it, too. My friend also pointed out that Cage kills Elves, too. Right now, I was preferring RiP because it was much more crippling, and even if the opponent got rid of it, in most cases, they have to start over (Goyf, Knight, Dredge, Reanimator, etc.). Why are you running Cage over RiP, Shawon?

Against the Sneak and Show, I noticed that I definitely didn't bring in as much sideboard hate as I would have liked, so that's something else I want to revisit.

Unfortunately, I didn't get to test as much today as I would have liked, because most of the match-ups were such out of our favor, anyway.

Shawon

01-20-2014, 01:03 AM

I was going to write two tournament reports after playing in two big-prize events this weekend, but I went 1-2 drop today at the SCG Super IQ since X-2 denies top 8 (and prizes only go to top 8, Swiss = 5). I got little sleep the night before, and I just wasn't feeling confident at all with myself, not specifically with my decklist. I threw away the first game against Esperblade and I got crushed in game 2, so it went downhill from there. I did beat USA Delver though.

But yesterday, I finished in 2nd place at Ice Import's Foil Fiesta, and won a foil FTV Jace :cool:

I kinda blacked out on all the match details, but I'll give a quick rundown. List first:

Mana
16 Artifact Lands
8 Drum/Opal
1 Mantle

Creatures
8 Cheeri0s
4 Ravager
4 Champ
4 SFM
3 Skirge

Business
4 TC
4 Plating
3 Tezz
1 Jitte

SB
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cage
3 Revoker
2 Specter's Shroud
2 Dispatch
1 Karakas

Obviously I made some last-minute changes to the list I said was going to bring. Made room for 1 SB slot by moving 3rd Tezz MD, cutting Inkmoths and upping Skirges to 3. Fit in the 2nd Shroud, not because I needed that exact card, but just to fill up the anti-combo suite. Also, I switched a Dispatch into a Karakas to have overlapping applicability towards Sneak-Show.

Round 1: Jeremiah (Rock Lee) - CLOUDPOST

Well, I have been testing against Cloudpost for a month now, so what better timing to determine the fruits of my labor than to face what's probably my worst competitive matchup in the very first round, right? Except I never found out. In cosmic irony, I ended up WINNING with just nuts draws (I can't remember if we did two or three games). I'll take any win I can get though, and you will see that later on in my semifinal match. We did play a post-board for funsies, and I still lost after I nabbed his Top with Thoughtseize (he ripped another one).

Round 2: Jonathan - Shardless BUG

Game 1: Steam roll.
Game 2: I walked into Golgari Charm, only losing 2 Skirges. However, he had two Pithing Needle the whole time, one naming Plating, and the other naming Tezz after I cast mine and subsequently +1'd.
Game 3: I win on a mulligan to 5, and at one point he Cascades into Golgari Charm at the wrong time (only has X/2s, 1 Champ and 1 SFM).

Round 3: Mike (rockout) - Sneak & Show

Game 1: We had some good talks about the good old days in one of the archived(?) Landstill threads. Anyway, he's Sneak-Show, so naturally I lose.
Game 2: I turn 1 Thoughtseize and his hand was IIRC <2xAncientTomb, 1 Ponder, 2xPetal, 1 Griselbrand, blank or maybe just 6> and I choose to nab Sneak Attack. It doesn't matter as I durdle and he drops Show and Tell.

Round 4: Eric (rockout's friend)- Deathblade

Game 1: I keep a NO-LAND hand against Deathblade LOL. And I win.
Game 2: I think I double-mulliganed, and he took over.
Game 3: His first four land drops were: Swamp -> Academy Ruins -> Plains -> Tundra. He flips Supreme Verdict off of Confidant, and says that he would have been safer if he didn't flip Verdict off of Confidant, before realizing he couldn't even cast Verdict that turn.

I'm going to make a habit of taking down notes, because by now I have forgotten most of the details. However, that match was yet one of many examples where Paradise Mantle needs to be taken out post-board against grindy decks. Having the SB Batterskull definitely would have helped in those cases

Round 5: ID against Neil (BGx control variant)

Top 8:

Quarterfinals: Harlan (Jund)

Match: Everyone knows how brutal Punishing Fire is. Only important detail is Tezzeret targeting Darksteel Citadel >>>>> Jund + Punishing Fire.

Semifinals: Miracles (can't remember name, hey I met a LOT of people this weekend)

Game 1: I win with Tezz.
Game 2: I brick a lot. And I mulliganed. I ended up trying this SB strategy: -3 Skirge +3 Revoker, and it was surprisingly significant, despite my opponent using his STP to remove my Revoker to Helm FTW.
Game 3: He made a punt that costed him the finals, that's all I will say.

Finals: Brent (MiracleBlaaaaaadddeee)

Game 1: Crushes me, but we went back and forth for a while.
Game 2: Crushes me. Probably made a mistake here and there, but honestly, I believe that I have to routinely test and keep my playskill sharp against Miracles in order to make sure I can confidently win the matchup.

Notes:

- 1 SB Batterskull is needed, or optionally 4th Tezzeret or Academy Ruins, so that I can SB Paradise Mantle out in grindy long games.

- In sideboarding, I'm thinking that Vault Skirge is also okay to take out post-board for Revoker in certain fair matchups, like Miracles.

I went 2-4 today, but considering my losses were: Dark Depths, Elves, Sneak and Show, and Maverick (which in game 3 I had to mull to 5), I'm not terribly disappointed with that. And after figuring out that my deck had nothing to interact with that freaking Marit Lage token, I think Shawon's right in that Dispatch is worth trying again, so I'm going to dump the Persecutions and put in Dispatches, instead. Otherwise, the only way I could stop was to outrace him, which I did game two, but then he turn 2'd a Knight game three, and, well, then a 20/20 indestructible happened.

Ensnaring Bridge is another option, one that has overlap against Sneak & Show as well as Elves. For the tourney today (not yesterday), I ran the SB Ensnaring Bridge, but I never got to use them.

What are thoughts on Grafdigger's Cage vs. Rest in Peace? I really like that RiP takes care of Deathrite and Goyf, which are relevant, but I guess if I'm going back to Dispatch, that can get it, too. My friend also pointed out that Cage kills Elves, too. Right now, I was preferring RiP because it was much more crippling, and even if the opponent got rid of it, in most cases, they have to start over (Goyf, Knight, Dredge, Reanimator, etc.). Why are you running Cage over RiP, Shawon?

I'd rather just go aggro than try to run Rest in Peace against fair decks. I use Cage strictly against select combo decks.

Shiku

01-22-2014, 12:34 PM

Here’s the deal, I want to enter my first ever legacy tourney. I’m going in blind never having played at this location ever or at any other for that matter!

I’m leaning toward these 75 based on what I read here and personal preferences:

Creature (25)
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Etched Champion
3x Master of Etherium
4x Memnite
4x Ornithopter
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Vault Skirge

Artifact (11)
4x Cranial Plating
4x Mox Opal
2x Springleaf Drum
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sorcery (4)
4x Thoughtcast

Planeswalker (3)
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Land (17)
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Darksteel Citadel
3x Glimmervoid
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
Sideboard (15)
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt

It is open for discussion and I welcome suggestions and questions.

Now, the really hard part for me is sideboarding since I have next to zero experience with that. My basic sideboard plan as you can tell is to switch to “chalice @ 1” game 2 by removing mystics and jitte.

Wanting to have a better plan than that, I went to the source and took the list of decks to beat (below).

If you guys would be so kind to tell me your strategies to as many decks as you can I’d be extremely grateful. Particularly on what to take out, since what to bring in I have a decent idea.

Here are the DTBs with my noob plans:

Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
chalice@1 plan

Blade Control
+3 cabal therapy, +2 pithing needle, -4 ravager, -1 Master

Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
+3 cabal therapy, -3 Tezzeret

DeathBlade
+3 cabal therapy, -3 Tezzeret

Elves!
chalice@1 plan

Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
+2 Pithing Needle, +3 O-ring, -3 Tezzeret, -2 Master

Jund
+3 cabal therapy, -3 vault Skirge

Death and Taxes
+3 o-ring , +3 cabal therapy, -3 master, -3 Tezzeret

Sneak and Show
+3 o-ring , +3 cabal therapy, -3 master, -3 Tezzeret

Miracle Control
+2 Pithing Neddle, +3 o-ring, -3 Skirge, -2 ravager (or chalice plan? )

UWR Delver
Chalice@1 plan

BUG "Shardless" Control
+3 cabal therapy, -3 stoneforge

ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Chalice@1 plan

GW/x Maverick
chalice@1 plan

Thanks a bunch !!!

Shawon

01-22-2014, 01:42 PM

Your list could use a lot of work, but honestly, your wins with the deck come from how you play the deck, not what's inside it. Just try to play to your best capability. I haven't tried this myself, but another poster said that Gitaxian Probe was a really good card for them when they were playing the deck for the first time. It could work for you, because having information on your opponents hand or gameplan can give you an idea of how aggressive you want to be with cards like Arcbound Ravager, or simply find out if your opponent has Daze. Not to mention, Gitaxian Probe is practically a combo with Cabal Therapy. I think it wouldn't be a bad card for you to use in your first Legacy tournament.

As for sideboarding the best place to start understanding, and by the way this is something I'm still struggling with, is knowing what to take out. I'll stick to just telling you what cards are weak in each matchup rather than tell you what to put in. But, I think if you are going to run Ancient Tombs and Glimmervoids, you might be better off with Rest in Peace as your graveyard hate of choice over the other choices, because if you are going to bring in cards for fair matchups like Jund, Rest in Peace is a more unilateral SB card against those matchups and of course relevant against dedicated graveyard decks.

Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)
chalice@1 plan

Take out Tezzs and Jitte for the Chalices. However, 1 Tezz is fine postboard.

Blade Control
+3 cabal therapy, +2 pithing needle, -4 ravager, -1 Master

You're removing 5 creatures for 5 noncreatures. This will make your deck less likely to kill the opponent. The first card I would take out, which I just learned this weekend, is Vault Skirge. Lingering Souls, Jitte, Zealous Persecution, make Vault Skirge a dead card in the matchup.

Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
+3 cabal therapy, -3 Tezzeret

If you ran Rest in Peace, you could take out the Tezzs to put them in. It's up to you what you run.

DeathBlade
+3 cabal therapy, -3 Tezzeret

Tezzeret is NOT something you want to take out. It's card advantage. Cabal Therapy is nice if you open with it on turn 1-2, but games against these type of decks go into topdecking wars, and Cabal Therapy is quite useless when both players are in topdeck mode.

Elves!
chalice@1 plan

Probably take out the Tezzs/Champs.

Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
+2 Pithing Needle, +3 O-ring, -3 Tezzeret, -2 Master

Taking out Tezz is insane, and Cabal Therapy is probably better than O-Ring. You can take out Memnites since you don't care about speed and you want to limit your vulnerability to Pernicious Deed.

Jund
+3 cabal therapy, -3 vault Skirge

You don't need Cabal Therapy. Rest in Peace could be good here.

Death and Taxes
+3 o-ring , +3 cabal therapy, -3 master, -3 Tezzeret

Don't take out Masters.

Miracle Control
+2 Pithing Neddle, +3 o-ring, -3 Skirge, -2 ravager (or chalice plan? )

Chalice isn't bad.

UWR Delver
Chalice@1 plan

Sounds good. Take out Tezz.

BUG "Shardless" Control
+3 cabal therapy, -3 stoneforge

Take out Vault Skirge, not Stoneforge Mystic. SFM is card advantage.

ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Chalice@1 plan

Take out Etched Champions

GW/x Maverick
chalice@1 plan

Don't take anything out. If they are leaning hard on the Scryb Ranger + Jitte plan, then you can bring in Pithing Needles.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes!

Shiku

01-23-2014, 01:00 PM

Thank you for all the advice ! I'll let you know what happened for sure !

Draconicsteel

01-23-2014, 07:13 PM

I'm not really a fan of Glimmervoid in Legacy, but there have been a few other people on here running it. Since you're running SFM main, I'd prefer going Ancient Den, instead, but that's just me. It helps hit the metalcraft for Mox turn one, and there's no auto-destruct. I'd do 4 Den and go down to three Citadel.

I tried out three Detention Sphere originally when I first got into it, and the only reason I dropped it was because I thought there were better options, or more versatile options, not because I was particularly disappointed in the card itself. D Sphere has the additional advantage, though, of being able to get rid of all those Empty the Warrens tokens.

I would also highly recommend some Ethersworn Canonists sideboard. Our deck is just too weak against combo, and Canonist essentially means they can't win until they've dealt with it.

Interesting strategy on varying up your gy hate. I'm curious to see what you think of that after the tournament.

Good luck! Good to see a new Affinity player.

Imperial

01-26-2014, 03:15 AM

Hi guys, I'll be starting this deck, as I've always enjoyed affinity in modern, and this deck seems interesting and fun. I've been testing online quite a bit, and I'll have my paper deck done soon, so ill be stopping here to discuss strategy. :smile:

Shiku

01-27-2014, 01:18 PM

I was asking advice to go to my first legacy tourney and here is how it went down.

Out of 18 players, I finished 17 and went 1-4. I attribute it to lack of skill on my part as the main reason, the second reason was I didn’t exactly have the deck I wanted (I couldn’t get the other 2 springleaf drums I wanted), and the third reason is, of course, bad luck.

This is the decklist I actually played

4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
3x Ancient Den
2x Darksteel Citadel
2x Glimmervoid
2x Ancient Tomb

4x Ravager
4x Champion
4x ornithopter
4x memnite
3x vault skirge
3x master of etherium
3x stoneforge mystic
4x cranial platting
4x thoughtcast
4x mox opal
2x springleaf drum
1x Jitte

3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Sideboard

4x Chalice of the void
3x Rest in Peace
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Oblivion ring
2x Pithing needle

Match 1: Was up against some weird BW deck with Sorin, Lingering souls, discard, pox and trinisphere.
Game one had a so so hand and kept. He proceeded to discard me a ton of cards and beat me. Game two, SB: -3 Vault Skirge -1 ravager, +4 chalice, crappy hand, mulled to six, crappy hand again and kept. Lost.

Match 2: Jund. I start a game ahead because my opponent had a deck list error.
Game one, crappy hand, mull, good hand. Beat him fast with plating on Skirge racing two gyofs. My only win of the day…

Match 3: Esperblade (UWB goodstuffs)
Game one, he has discard and wasteland, brings out a jitte, but I manage to rip an opal of the top of the library and land a ravager to counter his jitte while I beat him into a pulp with skirge to race his TNN. Game two, sideboarded wrong: -3 Tezz -1 Master, +4 Chalice. Then made the misplay of the day by attacking into a Strix and not realizing he has deathtouch after I tranfered ravager counters onto my creature, down hill from there and lost. Game three, -1 Master, +1 O-ring in adition. Couldn’t do much he had a great hand with StP to respond to my chalice@1 and everything good and timely flowing into his hand, engineered explosives galore. Could have won it if I didn’t screw up royaly game two even though it is not a favorable match up.

Match 4: Ad Nauseaum Storm Combo.
Game one I proceed to dispense beatings, he tries to go off but it’s not enough. Game 2, sideboard: -3 tezz -1 Master, +4 chalice. He starts, combos and I die. Turn one kill. That’s just the nature of the game. Game 3, I start, the hand has a decent beating but no chalice. I keep, I lose. He goes off turn 2.

Match 5: Lands
Game one he has Tabernacle as the first land drop. Wastelands and ports my lands, engineered explosives says hi, takes forever but kills me with manlands. Game two, Sideboard: +3 RiP +2 Needle +3 O-Ring, -3 Tezz -4 champion -1 Master. I managed to land a needle on wasteland after mulling to six. He has a great hand again and ghost quarters me to oblivion.

What I learned ? Affinity is a mulligan intensive deck and I am not versed in the art of mulliganning. Maybe a version with pests is more consistent at dispensing beatings game one? My sideboard felt adequate were I more aggressive with the mulligans.

Draconicsteel

01-28-2014, 11:05 AM

Don't side out Tezz against Esperblade or Lands, especially not lands. Tezz is really the only way to beat Lands. I sided sour Tezz a lot when I first started, too, but then I learned how debilitating he can be. I would recommend finding other sb options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shawon

02-01-2014, 10:42 PM

Fortune has bestowed upon me once again, as I plan for another back-to-back Legacy weekend, with a 30-man tourney for $30 on the day after Valentine's, followed by the SCG Legacy Open Series in Somerset, NJ. And I just found out that the LGS with the best prize support for Legacy tournaments, Ice Imports, is hosting two consecutive tournaments next month! This spring is going to so much fun, and I can't wait until the 15th! I'm honestly glad for the first time ever to be single around Valentine's Day lol.

Anyway, I finally got around to testing Sword of Fire and Ice in lieu of the Jitte slot (aside: lol I got my hands on SoFI by trading my Jitte for it, irony!), and I have to say that I like SoFI a whole lot more than Jitte. One of my main concerns about Jitte was being unable to get any value from Equipping a 0/2 Thopter, and aside from the fact that SoFI lets you completely ignore True-Name Nemesis, another drawback from using Jitte I noticed was requiring combat damage to be dealt, which can be a compromising position to be in when you're equipping ground attackers with Jitte and your opponent has good ol' True-Name staring at you. Honestly, since running SoFI, Merfolk is starting to feel like a bye matchup, which is hilarious to me. I beat Merfolk 2-0 this week at one of my weeklies, and SoFI just crushed him.

TLDR: Run Sword of Fire and Ice in your Stoneforge package, especially in this metagame and if True-Name doesn't get banned this Monday (I'm betting, literally, that it will).

Ziveeman

02-04-2014, 11:57 AM

Hey guys,

Just bringing some Affinity success stories from Arizona :)

I lent my friend Affinity for my local Legacy Series that I'm running with my website. We had 57 players and he managed to Top 8 with a record of 5-0-1. Here is the decklist:

Creatures
4 Signal Pest
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Vault Skirge
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Spells
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
3 Spell Pierce
1 Phyrexian Revoker

I can't say too much about his actual matches, but I believe this is what he faced:

Round 1 - Necrotic Ooze Reanimator - Win
Round 2 - Burn - Win
Round 3 - Death and Taxes - Draw
Round 4 - UW Stoneblade - Win
Round 5 - Affinity - Win
Round 6 - BUG Delver - Draw
Top 8 - Death and Taxes - Lose

The list is similar to what Drew Levin championed in one of his SCG articles. I liked it a whole lot, but replaced the Tundra with a Phyrexian Revoker. I liked the Revoker for Jitte as well as random critters that can cause problems for Affinity like Grim Lavamancer.

Also, my other friend managed to Top 16 the event with his own Affinity list. He started off 4-0 and would have been okay double drawing in but he was paired down (to the above Affinity played in R5), and his R6 opponent played it out :/

Creatures
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Memnite
4 Etched Champion
4 Ornithopter
3 Frogmite
3 Master of Etherium

Spells
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
3 Mox Opal
4 Thoughtcast
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Glimmervoid

Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Winter Orb
3 Duress
3 Spell Pierce
3 Mindbreak Trap

Round 1 - Elves - Win
Round 2 - Shardless BUG - Win
Round 3 - Belcher - Win
Round 4 - Merfolk - Win
Round 5 - Affinity - Lose
Round 6 - Infect - Lose

I know some of his choices were budget-related (hence only 3 Mox Opal), but the list still seemed to perform well from what I saw.

So they went 8-3-2 on the weekend, not too bad considering they were the only two Affinity players in the room.

AggroSteve

02-04-2014, 05:42 PM

i wonder how frogmite performed for them, because i am testing them again right now, plus i am a bit surprised non of the two was running SFM, but signal pest in its stead
i myself have come to like signal pest more and more lately

also master of etherium is an intresting choice as i have been thinking of him lately as well, but i am surprised to see no ravager at all in the second list, plus i really dislike the glimmervoids

Final Fortune

02-05-2014, 03:07 AM

Shawon

02-05-2014, 10:59 AM

Glimmervoid is fine, between the creatures and the accelerants you'll rarely lose your land. That said I don't see why they don't play City of Brass, because the life loss isn't really relevant.

It's sacreligious, but I've been having a lot of success by cutting Tezzert from the MD and curving out at 3, there's just too many Spell Pierces by the time you get to cast him, if you get to cast him and Paradise Mantle is awful. I think Ravager/Disciple is enough of a combo kill, Thoughtcast is a waste of a tempo without Myr Enforcer/Frogmites and playing both Master of Etherium and Etched Champion is strong as hell. There's just nothing for them to Spell Pierce at all. Miracles seems to be at a low right now and boarding out or cutting Tezzeret and Thoughtcast makes Thalia and Thorn just kick an unbelievable amount of ass.

I still hate Vault Skirge, it's garbage without Plating/Ravager and enough cards in this deck already fall under that category.

What is the context of the success that you speak of, by the way? Because I have yet to see you report any tournament result supporting some of the "sacreligious" claims you've made. In fact, I searched through your posts on The Source out of curiosity (looking for Final Fortune + "report"), and I couldn't find anything. Before you fight fire with fire, yes, I used to theorycraft in my two years of being on this thread, and make wild claims about Affinity without any results to back them too, but since playing competitive Magic starting last summer I have learned that I can just do most of my testing at weeklies or tournaments and get more conclusive results on my testing than just going on MWS. That is why I get more irritated with people's lack of content in this thread regularly, because I am actively trying to better the deck and my performance in it, and I read comments on why Thoughtcast is bad in the deck. Come on, man.

The Spell Pierce argument is pretty bogus reasoning to take out Tezzeret entirely, because unlike Thalia + Thorn, Tezzeret has actually proven itself as a mainstay in Affinity lists. It wins games point blank period. The only decks where Spell Pierce is a problem and Tezzeret is a liability against are tempo decks, and you can just SB out Tezzeret against those decks post-board.

Also, explain to me why you want take extra turns to cast + equip Cranial Plating in game 1 with Thalias + Thorns, and why that's just better than winning with the raw power of a turn 2 Cranial Plating or casting a Turn 3 Tezzeret.

Every argument you've made against Thoughtcast is completely stupid, and I'm not going to argue with you at all on that point. It draws 2 cards for one mana. Yeah, it's a terrible card in that deck. In fact, let's make it a better card in the deck by running obsolete creatures like Frogmite and Myr Enforcer. Or just run Thalia + Thorn, I mean, look at all the results. :rolleyes:

Are you trolling, or do you actually want people to listen to you and respect your opinion? If it's the latter, I highly suggest you actually test the deck and report your results, good or bad, so that you can participate in the advancement of The Source discussion of Affinity, rather than spout backwards logic on why we should dump the best cards in the deck for unproven cards that you can't even back up. Moreover, the fact that you cherrypick the worst and most situational examples of why cards can be bad ("I lose Metalcraft with Etched Champion too many times! I'm going to cut it for Master of Etherium!") makes me question your actual understanding of Affinity, not to mention your actual experience with the deck in competitive environments.

Final Fortune

02-05-2014, 04:45 PM

Trolling much?

I don't bother to write tournament reports because I don't bother to attend brick and mortar tournaments, my successes and failures with Affinity are restricted to MTGO, which I do stream on Twitch, and I only play Affinity in metagames where aggro-control is dominant i.e. control is dormant so Spell Pierce does matter.

Regarding Thoughtcast, I've played with and without the card and think being threat dense is better than expending tempo on Thoughtcast vs aggro-control, because it only costs U for 2 cards when you're ahead. Once you start facing Wasteland, Rough/Tumble, Ancient Grudge, Golgari Charm, Krosan Grip etc. its difficult to get a cost effective U for 2 cards. If you grind the aggro-control match ups post-board, you'll SB out Thoughtcast to the point where you have to ask yourself why you're playing a Spell Pierce target that you SB out 2/3 games as opposed to any other card. I view Affinity very much as a meta-game deck vs aggro-control, so instead of playing a baseline of generically "good cards" I play a basline of specifically "best cards" vs the match-up I'm expecting to face. I think this is why you prefer stuff like Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus to Rest in Peace, you're trying to play Affinity as a default deck where I'm trying to play it as a meta deck whenever I get tired of playing Storm or Dredge and decie to play something fair instead. I SB Tezzeret, altho' I'm not against cutting him altogether.

I don't really get your comparison to Tezzeret and Thalia/Thorn, there are all kinds of Affinity/prison "home brew" decks out there and if Goblins has splashed /w for Thalia I don't see why Affinity can't. I guess you could categorize the deck as mono-w Stompy instead of as Affinity, but Affinity/prison "home brew" is probably no worse of a dark horse in the metagame as Affinity is.

How are Myr Enforcer and Frogmite obsolete, and how does playing Myr Enforcer and Frogmite not make Thoughtcast better? I don't know how long you've played Affinity, or if you play any other deck than Affinity, but what made Thoughtcast good wasn't U, draw 2 cards it was U, draw 2 cards and then immediately establish board position with free creatures. I've actually been thinking a lot about Myr Enforcer and Frogmite lately, because with the rise of True Name Nemesis the aggro-control decks aren't all using Tarmogoyf in order to block and kill a Myr Enforcer anymore and it trades with Batterskull. If you want to play the "this card is established in Affinity, this card is obsolete in Affinity" game then look above you at the tournament winning list from North America with Frogmite and Master of Etherium. I'm not "cherry picking" my arguments when it comes to Etched Champion, wait until you get your board cleared by Golgari Charm or Engineered Explosives, lose Metalcraft and subsequently die. Etched Champion is a good card, but it's not significantly better or worse than Master of Etherium and I constantly either go back and forth between the two or play both.

Some people are going to play Etched Champion, some people are going to play Master of Etherium, some people are going to play Signal Pest, some people are going to play Vault Scourge, some people are going to play Ancient Tomb, some people are going to play Darksteel Citadel, some people are going to play gold lands, some people are going to play Inkmoth Nexus, some people are going to play Stoneforge Mystic, some people are going to play Disciple of the Vault and that's largely because a lot of the cards are interchangeable and people are biased by their own metagames and personal experiences. I don't think that makes anyone more right or more wrong. Given the right metagame conditions, Affinity is going to rise or fall based on the saturation of aggro-control and the luck of tournament pairings. I'm pretty sure I could take a Vial Affinity list from back in 2009 and still do well enough with it in a modern, aggro-control dominated metagame.

The whole idea of "this is an established card in Affinity" just makes me laugh, Affinity is a deck played in Legacy by a handful of people when the metagame calls for it or by poor people who can't afford dual lands and want to participate in the format - I think you're the only die hard Affinity player I know of and for me it's just a question of nostalgia. If the deck was actually played in mass and really put up serious results, you might have a point. As it is Affinity is just a dark horse aggro deck with a really good game vs aggro-control compared to Zoo, which makes it situationally playable. Everybody plays Force of Will, True Name Nemesis and Rest in Peace right now fwiw, so it happens to be a good choice. If I'm playing an anti aggro-control deck, then I don't really want to play the best of the worst cards vs aggro-control in my deck. I can beat stuff like Jund/Junk etc. without Spell Pierce targets or just scratch and burn the match up and move on to the nigh infinite number of people playing Island.

You can enjoy the thread to yourself tho', you seem to prefer it that way.

Draconicsteel

02-06-2014, 05:54 PM

Ah, so first of all, the meta on MTGO is VASTLY different than the meta with cardboard cards. So that might explain a lot of the differences we're having.

I'm fairly certain that Disciple lost popularity because of Tezzeret (though correct me if I'm wrong on that). It's simply a more stable win condition against most circumstances. That being said, if you're sticking with Disciple, it makes sense to cut the Tezz, at least out of mainboard. I haven't tried the card myself, so in all honesty I can't say how bad or good Disciple is, but I can say that I love Tezz in this deck, because his synergy and ability to single-handedly turn the game is ridiculous. I think Affinity should probably run one or the either.

Also, on Spell Pierces - it's not good against us, with or without Tezz. The same counters that get everything get Tezz, in addition. Daze and FoW are just better, so I'm not really scared of Spell Pierce. That and Daze are so easy to play around in our deck that it's laughable. The only thing to worry about is FoW, and the only thing you can do against that is bait it out, anyway. But, that might just be a difference of the meta we're facing. The other thing is that Tezz is good no matter what you have on board, while Disciple is only good paired with Ravager. And Ravager is already a high target in our deck.

I'm not sure why you would ever side out Thoughtcast. One mana for two cards is a ratio that any deck would love to have. Card advantage is HUGE, and cheap + good card advantage is ridiculous. Especially in a deck that just wants to vomit its hand on the table, once you suddenly increase that hand, its make the deck that much deadlier, which is also why I like Fire and Ice over Jitte. One of the consistent problems of aggro is running out of steam, and Thoughtcast and Fire and Ice both fix that. If an aggro deck is able to keep up the pressure even though board wipes and/or spot removal, it is significantly harder to beat. Every single time I've played Thoughtcast, my opponent has either seriously thought about countering it, or sighed in dejection and said something along the lines of, "Yeah. That happens."

I've been trying out Frogmite over Ornithopter, and I've been liking it, so I can't bash Frogmite at all. The consistent ability to attack is better than the potential evasion. You're saying you don't like Vault Skirge because it sucks without support, well, the same and moreso is true for thopter. All it is until you see Plating or Master is a 0/2 wall. Which is not impressive. (Also on the "it's garbage without Plating/Master" argument, yeah, a lot of things in the deck fall under that, but of those, Vault Skirge is probably one of the best. One mana for a lifelinker is cool, but one mana for a lifelinker and a FLYER is what's important. That's a lot of value right there.) I've been dubious about Frogmite in the past, because it seems less consistent to be able to get on the battlefield than thopter, especially with running non-artifact lands, but I think it's cheap enough that it isn't a problem. And Frogmite is less of a dead draw late game.

AggroSteve

02-07-2014, 05:58 AM

i really like the fact that other people are trying frogmite as well
i am currently very happy with him, exactly because he can attack for 2compared to 0 of ornithopter
the problem with frogmite is that he can only land consistently turn 1 paired with either a memnite or an ornithopter

currently i am running 61 cards (i kniw its odd, but its a habit of mine to build every deck with 61 cards, and i do not intend to change that)
what i have cut for the playset of frogmites is currently 1 ravager, 1 champion, 1 land (running only 16 currently)
i have been thinking about a certain equipment lately given i now run more ground-based-creatures is the pseudo-skullclamp that could have some effect here, because with the addition of frogmite i run a even more swarmstyled list, and there are certain to be some blocks in combat which will mostly be on frogmite or memnite, because the other swarmlings are evasive
i know that the pseudo- skullclamp has been discarded by most as not good enough, but with a more ground-based army it cound prove valuable

on the other topic going on in this thread, thoughcast is possibly the best spell in the whole deck. under no condition i would run less than 4 , plus it is not at all a tempoloss, IMO it fits the definition of tempo in this deck.
disciple is vastly inferior to tezzeret, because tezzeret can win games on his own if unanswered, disciple in my opinion is way to fragile and inconsistent
master of etherium: i have often tried this one, but most of the time he is clunky, i miss a blue mana to cast him, he gets chump-blocked for no effect and in my opinion way inferior to both champion and ravager, once you get used to ravager.

just my 2 cents

on a sidenote: please guys do not take everything personal if someone does not approve of your opinion, we talk here to make progress and not to vent your anger or whatever

EDIT: lots of mistyping, because i posted from my cell-phone