[Deck] Zoo

[Rizso]

Would like to add that Gaddock is great against the NO-Pro that is running wild everywhere now. I play a zoo version with Steppe Lynx, sylvan library, kotr and no fireblasts. The lynxes has been great for me in lategame with Sylvan and KotR fetching them lands. Steppe Lynx imo just makes the deck better. I dont like the Kird Apes at all.

For Gravehate i prefair Split between Tormod's Crypt and Relics of Progenitus. Siding in Gaddock, crypt and relics against dredge. I find Relics being better against other gravyard abuse like Reanimate and threshold and it cantrips. Its pretty much only dredge the speed of the gravhate matters that much between 0 and 1 mana. Like loam or threshold the time it needs is lot slower and you can use the tap effect for a great effect. While the trap wont do much there.

The 5 latest sets have given zoo so many cards:
Shards: Nacatl, Thoctar
Conflux: Path to Exile, Knight of the Reliquary
Alara: Qasali Pridemage
Zendikar: Steppe Lynx, Arid Mesa, Mindbreak Trap
Worldwake: Loam Lion

Resolving a Sylvan Library has for me pretty much always won the game, Dark Confidant + Top in the same card without needing to use mana every turn. It makes Steppe Lynx very consistent even later in the game. Have ended games where there has been a stalemate, then fetch a fetchland at my opponents end step with Knight of the Reliquary then play an other fetch land on my turn from my hand that i had or found with sylvan library and attack with huge Lynx's , KotR tarmos etc. I for one wont go away from Lynx's, Knights or Sylvan they have won so many games for me.

[Svenyboy]

hey guys,
I am playing this version now and I really like it:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
1 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Ive tested this build a long time now and I dont like Kird Ape. It is only Turn 1 to 3 good and then it is a baad draw. Maybe I cut 1-2 Apes for Figures, there are better in the Mid-Lategame. What do you think is atm good to play in your board? I tried this Board:

4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I dont play a lot of Mirrors, thats the reason why I dont need more against Mirror. There are a lot of Rock and Aggroloam Builds and I think Vortex is really good against that decks because it is a clock and is good against Finks and Nighthawk. Vexing Shusher is against Thresh and Countertop, in Thresh Pridemage arent really good and against Coutertop I cut the Helix. What do you think about it?

[nodahero]

I am fairly new to playing Zoo and I was curius what cards you often board in against the mirror and what you cut if you are running 2 Knight and Steppe Lynx. Thanks for the response.

[Dr.AgOn]

Hi, I really like the primers and card choices and explanations, but doesn't ANYONE play Magma Jet??? Even with 2 Libraries I wouldn't want to play a deck without at least 2 to 3 Jets.
Other considerable Main deck Slots could be a few Reckless Charges.

I like the idea of Sulfuric Vortex in the Board, but just can't make room for it.

[BreathWeapon]

I've tried 4 Magma Jet and 4 Sylvan Library together, the problem with Magma Jet is that Lightning Helix has good synergy with Sylvan Library as well and it's more relevant removal vs most of the format's creatures. Tho' I'd say they are probably equal in terms of racing for damage, because the Scry usually finds another burn spell in short order.

Magma Jet is definitely good filler, if nothing else.

[Rizso]

I am fairly new to playing Zoo and I was curius what cards you often board in against the mirror and what you cut if you are running 2 Knight and Steppe Lynx. Thanks for the response.

Its mosty just fireblasts and the kird ape that gets replaced into lynx and knight and fill out 4 of each of the 3 fetchlands.

I run zoo version with Lynx, Knight of the reliquary, sylvan library, no kirdapes no fireblasts.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Vacrix]

I run zoo version with Lynx, Knight of the reliquary, sylvan library, no kirdapes no fireblasts.

I also prefer lists without Fireblasts. Have you considered Crop Rotation? Its utter madness with Lynx and KoTR.


EDIT:

Aside, am I the only one who noticed that Zoo plays Rasta colors? Honestly, I was staring down Nacatl, Goyf, and Kird Ape the other day but all I could see was the Rasta flag made of Forest, Plains, Mountain.

[Rizso]

Only fun land i can find with the croprotaion is a fetchland. Really not worth playing that card without some cool land to abuse it with, like Dark Depths. makes its pretty bad when having neither lynx or KotR in play

[yadda]

Well, the "cool thing" to do with crop rotation is to play wasteland as a 2 of so that on t2 it just says wasteland on it if you dont have a lynx while keeping the functionality of pumping steppe lynx.

The problem is that it is completely irrelevant if you have an empty board and you topdeck it on turn 5, zoo doesnt like dead draws. (no deck does which is why the card doesnt see play.)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I top 8ed a local tourney with a new updated version of the deck recently. I wanted to try some new cards, and different numbers of cards. Here is my list:

3x Arid Mesa
3x Windswepth Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Forest

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Figure of Destiny
2x Thoctar
1x River Boa

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Price of Progress
2x Blood Moon
2x Krosan Grip
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Jitte
1x Teeg

There is several questionable spots in the deck, especially the second Jitte, and the inclusion of River Boa. I wanted to test the Stoneforge Mystic package but didn't have the cards, but i also wanted to try cutting Kird Ape for a week and seeing how much i liked it. I added another Jitte, 2 FOD, and a random Jap Foil River Boa i found lying around.

I tend to draw alot of lands with the deck, so i figured FOD would be a good choice given my luck. And anyone who thinks I'm just bullshitting them, ask the people i play with. I draw ALOT of land with the deck. I made a Figure 8/8 once all day, but was always applying pressure while sculpting a good hand with him as well, i REALLY like him now.

I love Jitte like usual, and had one in the board just in case of the mirror or random aggro or tribal. I STILL don't see why people don't run more of these. They aren't bad in any matchup in my opinion. But anywho, a tourney report!


Round one i play against MonoRed Control. This guy runs Nev's Disk, Earthquake, and burn with Ball Lightning and Elemental Appeal to finish the job. I keep a 5 land, Nacatl, Chain hand and figure i can fetch out some mana and topdeck. The first game literally lasts 20 minutes with us trading creatures and trying to race. I draw all 3 of my Chain Lightnings against monored, and it was kinda garbage. I lose game 1 to him just getting the Bolt, Blast finish. Game two i board in Jitte and Ancient Grude and take out Chain Lightnings, and i get there the next two games just clean sweeping him when he was stuck on 2 lands.

Round two i play against AzureFalcon playing 43Lands, which is pretty miserable preboard for me. He gets Waste-lock, and Nomad Stadium recursion set up by turn 5 and i can't do anything. I bring all my gravehate, Blood Moon, and PoP, and see almost all of it over the next two games. All the cards i brought in just cripple Lands.

Round three i play against Thor playing Pulp Fiction's borrowed Belcher list with MD BloodMoon. Needless to say i get monkey stomped. I win a game though by getting Jitte on a Goyf. On to the next round...

Round four i play against Reanimator. Game one he gets stuck on land and Zoo does what it does best, and jumps all over people stumbling. Game two he get Iona on White so i have to race him, and i get him in 2 life point range and he reanimates Blazing Archron and ONESHOTS me. Game three, he get Iona naming white, but luckily all my hand is burn and such. He trades an Iona with a Nacatl with a equipped Jitte with 2 counters. I drop Lavamancer and start swinging and get Jitte up to 8 counters so i can deal with pretty much anything in his deck. 8 COUNTERS!!! Almost rivals the 12 I've had one time in my life. I win that game.

Round 5 i draw.

The beginning of the top8 i play against Counterbalance with Jace the Mindsculptor and other goodies. We have REALLY good games, but i lose about an hour into the round with an active Jace and Academy Ruins with EE and Shackles locking me out.

Overall the deck played well for me like it always seems to. I'm going to suggest the Stoneforge Mystic package sometime soon and let everyone know my results. It doesn't seem bad.

[BreathWeapon]

Stoneforge Mystic is to Umezawa's Jitte what Grim Lavamancer was to Cursed Scroll IMO, you definitely want between 1 and 4 in the deck and that depends on how far you want to push Umezawa's Jitte as the center piece of your mid-game. Personally I run 4 Mystic and 2 Jitte and I just steam roll past turn 4.

If you guys haven't tried Mother of Runes in the 1 drop spot you really should, she is such a counter/removal magnet and if she sticks, she gives you so much control over the board.

Regardless, I really like dropping Ape/Lion and white being a more central color than red, you really get to abuse Horizon Canopy at like 3 or even 4x and you don't need to curve to 3 for Thoctar or Knight.

[stu55]

I top 8ed a local tourney with a new updated version of the deck recently. I wanted to try some new cards, and different numbers of cards. Here is my list:

.


Not to be THAT guy, but how can it be updated if it looks strictly inferior? River Boa doesn't really belong in this deck. I ran this list to a split in the t8 of a tourney this weekend, slight difference from Richard Bland's GP T8. +1 Helix, -1 Path

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Legendary Creatures
2 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg


Rd1G1: Canadian Thresh- Just kept playing creatures getting in damage here and there and eventually burned him out.
Rd1G2: Same thing happens. Brought in a couple of Jittes for 2 chain lightning to make sure my guys would always be bigger than his but never saw them. This deck is so stupidly consistent.

Rd2G1: Enchantress- Not sure if I am suppose to win this match up or not. I get in some quick damage and he has to keep replacing his confinements with new ones so in between I just burn him out.
Rd2G2: He gets a bad draw and just roll him. Krosan Grip comes in for paths and gets his confinement when I deal him lethal.

Rd3G1: Faeries- Same thing that happens in 1.x, I go first and run him over.
Rd3G2: He goes first and beats me. We both run out of threats and must have taken like 12 damage from a spellstutter sprite. I get him to 2 on my turn but he kills me the next at 1 life.
Rd3G3: He both get stuck on 2 lands but I have creatures and end it quickly.

Rd4G1: Aluren- This is my friend and I am the only 3-0 due to a ton of draws. I am not sure I can get in if I scoop him into t4 so we play. Somehow my tiebreakers were awful. Game 1 he never sees aluren and I just creature and burn him out.
Rd4G2: Grips, Teegs and Mindbreak Traps come in for 4 lightning helix, a kird ape, and something else I think. He gets Aluren going on turn 6 and I have him at 2 life.
Rd4G3: I get him down quickly, and he has aluren in hand but no gas. He is at 7, so I mancer his only blocker, then swing goyf and put him at 3. I then proceed to Lightning Bolt him, but leave it on the stack to check on my other opponents. It turns out all 3 of them won and my tiebreakers are now infy high, so I scoop to my friend with Lethal on the stack.


Top 4 is Zoo, Aluren, MBC, and Enchantress

I get my friend again in the semis and just steam roll him in 2 games. Basically same as Rd4G1 both times.

The MBC beats Enchantress. After some talking he offers a split so I get Moat and $60 and he takes the Tabernacle. I am plenty happy getting an extra $60 since I could never beat that MBC deck.


Right now I am looking at ANT, Reanimator, Zoo, Enchantress, or 43Land for GP Columbus. So we will see what happens. Any questions feel free to ask me. I think I have a good understanding of the deck.

[Skub]

Yesterday I made top 8 at a tournament with 62 people. I also played Richard Bland's version with-1 chain lightning, + 1 lightning helix. His list plays excellent. During playtesting I found his list being very consistent. Unfortunately I don't have any notes for a report.

Round 1: ANT, 2-1 (good player but his deck crapped out on him)
Round 2: Homebrew deck with prodical socerer kind of creatures and standstill, 2-1
Round 3: Countertop, draw, due to lack of time
Round 4: Goblins, 2-1
Round 5: Band, 2-1
Round 6: id for top 8
Top 8: mirror match, 0-2

Richard's sideboard was very good.I woudn't change a card.

[KrzyMoose]

I went 6-1-2 at the SCG Indy this weekend, finishing in 21st.

First, the list:

Mono Red Aggro with Green and White Splash suggested by Richard Franklin on 2010-3-14 as a potential deck for Legacy
by Richard Franklin
//Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Treetop Village

//Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ranger of Eos

//Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast

//Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Price of Progress
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ranger of Eos

Up until the morning-of, I was playing a 9-fetchland configuration, with Kird Ape instead of Lynx, and 2 Treetop and 2 Horizon Canopy. After talking it over with my friends, I decided I wanted to be a little faster, so I switched to this. Aside from the Rangers, pretty standard. The Rangers are bonkers against the mirror, Merfolk, CounterTop, and control decks.

Matchups:

Round 1: 2-0 against CounterTop-Progenitus 1-0
Round 2: 1-1-1 against Lands 1-0-1
Round 3: 2-1 against CounterTop-Progenitus 2-0-1
Round 4: 1-2 against Reanimator with Protean Hulk 2-1-1
Round 5: 1-1-1 against Lands 2-1-2
Round 6: 2-0 against Eva Green 3-1-2
Round 7: 2-1 against Landstill 4-1-2
Round 8: 2-0 against Zoo 5-1-2
Round 9: 2-0 against CounterTop-Progenitus 6-1-2

I felt the deck was pretty good. The SB was probably wrong - in hindsight, I wanted another Faerie Macabre and Price of Progress.

The matches against Lands could very easily have turned out in my favor, as I had about 5 straight turns in game three in each match where I was trying to find any of 18 cards (14 red sources, 1 PoP, 3 Faerie Macabre) in the first match, and

I wanted another Treetop, but, since I changed the deck the morning of the tournament, I couldn't figure out a good way to fit it in. I really dislike playing more than 21 land, but I think going up to 22 land with 2 Treetops might be okay.

[Rizso]

How have Ranger of Eos been working out for you? Been thinking of testing it out as well.

[1mpulse]

I felt the deck was pretty good. The SB was probably wrong - in hindsight, I wanted another Faerie Macabre and Price of Progress.

The matches against Lands could very easily have turned out in my favor, as I had about 5 straight turns in game three in each match where I was trying to find any of 18 cards (14 red sources, 1 PoP, 3 Faerie Macabre) in the first match, and


Faerie Macabre hosed Reanimator all day.

Good job Rich.

-Mike

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@stu55: I clearly said that i ran River Boa because i had a random JapFoil version. It was more of a last minute thing, guy. And for me, running half those cards is an updated version for me.

[wcm8]

... I could never beat that MBC deck.


Right now I am looking at ANT, Reanimator, Zoo, Enchantress, or 43Land for GP Columbus. So we will see what happens. Any questions feel free to ask me. I think I have a good understanding of the deck.

Hey, it's the Enchantress player that lost to the MBC (and you, ha). To be honest, I think the MBC player just decided to build something that would steamroll the majority of the meta game, and I'm rethinking the advantages and disadvantages of MBC since I have most of the cards. Even with Iona around, you have a lot of defense with Duress, Hymn, etc. Hand disruption really rapes a lot of decks, regardless of their potential answers. It was a very clever deck, at least for that day.

Re: ANT, Reanimator... They are great decks to be sure, but I see they are getting hated-out and there is quite a bit of luck involved with getting good draws. Not that our tournament is great proof of this since it was so small, but the ANT and Reanimator players there went 0-2 against other typical legacy decks that weren't even that bad of matchups.

I think Zoo is consistently the "best" deck and there aren't too many decks out there that will be auto-losses with it. There are numerous opening hands that are workable, whereas the other decks you mentioned will have to mulligan to get some of their key cards. With Legacy games pretty much being decided by turn 3/4, mulliganing can REALLY matter. That's a big reason why Zoo is so damn good, even with its bad matchup to combo.

I loooovvve Enchantress, but I'm not so sure it would do well in a huge tournament. I'm not sure how many there were to begin with, but even in the top 64 of GP Madrid, there were no Enchantress players in sight.

[1mpulse]

Everyone at Indy was paranoid about Reanimator, hence, bad day for the hoards of Reanimator players.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'd like to add a quick quibble with the mini primers on page 113. Zoo originally referred to Scott John's Zoo deck from the early days of Magic that worked off of efficient beaters like Kird Ape and Serendib Efreet combined with burn and cheap hand refilling mechanics like Ancestral and the draw-7's. The deck, much like modern iterations, used burn to clear a path for blockers and as late game reach. The term Zoo was not used again until the Legacy split from Vintage a few years back when David Hernandez coined the term San Diego Zoo to refer to a deck that Chris Montero and myself designed in the wake of the split. That's where the name of the modern deck comes from, otherwise it would probably just be called Naya Sligh or Naya Aggro, much like Bant Survival or Jund Aggro.

That having been said, I think that the true precursor to this deck is a R/G aggro deck from before the split designed to beat U/W Landstill called Zilla Stompy, designed by Godzilla (I don't know what Zilla's real name is). Unlike either previous Zoo style, modern Naya Zoo does not run any card advantage engines (Zoo had draw, SD Zoo had Isochron Scepter) and it emphasizes speed over creature quality and combat tricks. Granted Steppe Lynx and Figure both have combat tricks but they're based around making the creatures more aggressive, rather than an offensive and defensive utility.

[Rizso]

Has anyone tested out Nullrod in the board. Shuts down Top, shakles in counterbalance decks. But more importanly turns off Lions Eye Diamond, Chrom Mox, Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal for ant and the other storm decks.

[Bokonon]

My apologies on any historical inaccuracies in my proto-primer. I guess you could call me somewhat new-school, and my first introductions to Zoo, while being R/G/U, came long after the days of the primacy of Ancestral Recall and such. Otherwise, I grew up in a world where zoo was already R/G/something and mostly aggro rather than card-advantage focuses, so I suppose my research didn't go deep enough (by which mostly it was asking my friends who played the deck way back in the day for info). No harm done, and I'll change it in mine as needed. Thanks for the heads up.

[lordofthepit]

This is in response to a discussion I had with Alix Hatfield about the possibility of running blue and playing a cantrip package to smooth out the deck's midgame draws. I came up with this a while ago and think that the inclusion of 6 draw spells might be worth testing.

Any updates on the blue splash?

[BreathWeapon]

Any updates on the blue splash?

Why /u when you could just push Sylvan Library or Magma Jet to 4x?

[lordofthepit]

Why /u when you could just push Sylvan Library or Magma Jet to 4x?

It's more innovative and it's something that I think is worth exploring. Otherwise we can all just play the same 75 card list and never make any progress.

Blue gives you more consistency in your draws via Brainstorm/Ponder effects and their synergy with fetchlands, at the cost of a weaker mana base. Sylvan Library gives you slower card quality advantage, and the possibility of card advantage by trading life (after the initial -1 to get cast the Library); Jet gives you very minimal card selection and is an inefficient burn spell. They replicate some of what blue would give you, of course, but they're definitely not the same thing. Whether or not the splash is worth it, I don't know, but I'm asking how the results in testing have been.

[Nelis]

It's more innovative and it's something that I think is worth exploring. Otherwise we can all just play the same 75 card list and never make any progress.


Change doesn't necessary mean progress.

[lordofthepit]

Change doesn't necessary mean progress.

That is obvious. What is also obvious is that not changing the list at all ensures that there is no progress to be made.

The blue splash might be great; it might suck. I just want to know the results of his testing, not reminders that Magma Jet scrys for two or whatever.

[SpikeyMikey]

If you really wanted to smooth draws (in the most consistent deck in Legacy), you could do it without going off color by adding SDT. You've got plenty of shuffling with fetches and KotR and neither Brainstorm or Ponder actually draws extra cards anyway. But honestly, the deck doesn't want to be adding things like that. BGW Junk is much better at playing the utility game. Zoo is at its best when it's playing out a threat every turn and overwhelming opponent's defenses. Slow the deck down by watering down the mana and diluting the primary strategy significantly with 6-8 off strategy cards and all you're going to do is make the deck worse.

[Nelis]

That is obvious. What is also obvious is that not changing the list at all ensures that there is no progress to be made.

The blue splash might be great; it might suck. I just want to know the results of his testing, not reminders that Magma Jet scrys for two or whatever.

I think we can safely say that it sucks because otherwise we would've heard by now how great it is. Besides there was this guy a while back who made a zoo deck with blue although it was more of a zoo deck with counter spells. Anyway I played it once and never again afterward because the manabase was too vulnerable. Some things are just a waste testing especially when there are alternatives on color. That's obvious.

What Im trying to say actually is that a lot of times I have the feeling that a lot of people are trying to be innovative just because of being innovative. If you know what I mean.

[stu55]

@stu55: I clearly said that i ran River Boa because i had a random JapFoil version. It was more of a last minute thing, guy. And for me, running half those cards is an updated version for me.

I just wouldn't recommend playing a card because "you have a foil jap version" of it...Kind of takes away from any serious discussion on the deck...



Anywho..are there any cards that will help against the MBC matchup?

[wcm8]

Anywho..are there any cards that will help against the MBC matchup?

Compost seems like one of the best sideboard options for any deck running Green. Side out the Sylvans and bring this in.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just wouldn't recommend playing a card because "you have a foil jap version" of it...Kind of takes away from any serious discussion on the deck...

It's Magic the freaking Gathering. It's not like I'm negotiating with some foreign country. I play what cards whenever i want. I'm allowed to joke with my opponents about River Boa. I also did well with River Boa, and if you read the thread, we discussed the card a while back. It's not bad.

[Kird Ape]

I spoke with the Hatfield about a blue splash as well. I built up a crummy little version on MWS and added RWM and brainstorm, with sylvan library. I think if wasteland was banned it would be near impossible to lose, that's not the world we live in though. A single land destruction spell cripples the consistency of the 4C Zoo build.

Everyone is basically talking about a more aggro zoo (usually including fireblast) and a more mid-game zoo (usually including KotR). I think we need to focus on which of these builds has the better matchups, then argue about a 4C blue zoo that rolls over and dies to any mana denial.

Treetop Village is a fairly recent additon, that really shines in the countertop/standstill matchups. Alix told me of a play at SCG Richmond where he had pridemage on the board and his opponent cast standstill. Next turn he dropped Treetop, and made 4/4 trees every turn until his opponent had to break their own standstill.

Ranger of Eos has my interest of late too. I keep thinking about a mid-late game top decked Ranger into a Nacatl and a Lavamancer. I guess he wouldn't be so hot in the opening 10 though, but that kind of explosiveness may be worth it.

[Nelis]

I love Ranger of Eos. I play 2 copies of Ranger of Eos in my white weenie pet deck and it's amazing. It's probably the same with zoo too so I would start testing 2 copies first if I were you. I would suggest to put in at least 1 Figure of Destiny too (I already play 2 in my zoo build) if you go for Ranger of Eos.

[Svenyboy]

But White Weenie is an other deck. Ranger of Eos in Zoo is very klobig. I think it is the wrong way to play Zoo like a midrange rock deck. Zoo is only a good deck cause its fast and strong. When Zoo loose this properties its only a very bad rock build with bolt and helix which isnt better than vindicate, pulse, pridemage and StoP. I like the idea with treetop Village, it seems good. But I think you have to play it with 2 Knights because Knight is a good toolbox. I think the fast Zoo is at the moment better but the problem is, its very boring to play :D

[Rizso]

I for one are thinking about the Ranger of Eos in the Board, not every games can be ended within the first 4-5 turns. Like the mirror and some other decks with lots of spot removal.

Is it just me that tends to board out chain lightnings alot?

[lordofthepit]

I think we can safely say that it sucks because otherwise we would've heard by now how great it is. Besides there was this guy a while back who made a zoo deck with blue although it was more of a zoo deck with counter spells. Anyway I played it once and never again afterward because the manabase was too vulnerable. Some things are just a waste testing especially when there are alternatives on color. That's obvious.

What Im trying to say actually is that a lot of times I have the feeling that a lot of people are trying to be innovative just because of being innovative. If you know what I mean.

Sure, most of the time, ideas don't pan out, but I wanted to see the results before I throw the idea out. Looks like there's nothing yet.

More than anything, I just want to throw out the stupid Kird Apes, which I feel rarely do anything to affect the board. No offense to The User Currently Known as Kird Ape. I've been leaning more to a utility bear like Gaddock Teeg or Vexing Shusher in that spot, but it's not ideal, obviously.

[wcm8]

Seems like Mother of Runes would be a great one-drop replacement. Slightly worse in the short term, but much much better in the long term than Kird Ape/Loam Lion.

[Nelis]

But White Weenie is an other deck. Ranger of Eos in Zoo is very klobig. I think it is the wrong way to play Zoo like a midrange rock deck. Zoo is only a good deck cause its fast and strong. When Zoo loose this properties its only a very bad rock build with bolt and helix which isnt better than vindicate, pulse, pridemage and StoP. I like the idea with treetop Village, it seems good. But I think you have to play it with 2 Knights because Knight is a good toolbox. I think the fast Zoo is at the moment better but the problem is, its very boring to play :D

Why would putting in Ranger of Eos turn the deck into a midrange rock deck? It could just as well turn it into a deck with an (even) better midgame. Knight of the Reliquary basically fulfills the same role already. You could opt to take out Sylvan library for instance. I'm not saying it would make the deck better but I wouldn't mind trying it out sometime. It sounds as a better idea than adding another color if you ask me. :-)

What do you consider fast zoo? A build with Steppe Lynxes?

[Kird Ape]

Is there really a slow zoo? I think the 2 versions are KotR zoo and non-KotR zoo. If anything I think Knight makes Steppe Lynx that much better and it should definitely be considered in each build.

I don't believe that Kird Ape has a spot in the deck anymore. Steppe Lynx is so much better and as long as you have 2 fetches in the opening 9, which doesn't seem that improbable, you are swinging for the fence those opening turns, which forces them to either answer an 0/1 Lynx or gamble that you don't have a 3rd fetch to beat them over the head with. Think about how much damage the Ape really does through a game, a fetched Lynx does it in half the time.

I talked to Alix last night about the Ranger debate and he mentioned Bloodbraid Elf. G2: Bloodbraid Elf cascade into... Choke. Ok, I guess that seems good and you might even be able to set it up with an active Sylvan. The inclusion of a 4 drop is nerve racking to me because I don't even run a 3 drop save for SB stuff.

[Rizso]

KotR has won me lots of games, he is pretty much always the largest creature in play. Spanding his power and thoughness from 5-10+. KotR is just bigger then the Thocter. I play 12 fetch, he is often 5/5 to 6/6 by turn 3 to 4.

Aggre with the Steppe Lynx, not many games where is he is bad where Kird Ape would do much better. Lynx puts on a way faster clock against combo decks, like ant. It got a better early game and a better mid- lategame when KotR and sylvan sees play.

Ranger of Eos gives 3 for 1. Dont think there should be any ranger silverbullets liks scutemobs and such. But i think its a good deal do play a 3/2 and get 2 nacatls/lynx/lavamancer to the hand. Ranger feels better then the Bloodelf for zoo.

[stu55]

It's Magic the freaking Gathering. It's not like I'm negotiating with some foreign country. I play what cards whenever i want. I'm allowed to joke with my opponents about River Boa. I also did well with River Boa, and if you read the thread, we discussed the card a while back. It's not bad.


But its not optimal. And I am sure any serious discussion about the deck would not include a 2/1 for 2 where its 2 abilites are as avg as possible in this format. Zoo is already made to beat blue decks so the islandwalk is about as irrelvant as possible. The regeneration is also average because this deck is built to attack and that is mostly a defensive ability.

The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong. Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.

I am just making some counter-points about your claims and having a discussion about it...you seem pretty insecure since you just jumped all over it as if it was attack on your dog or something...geez, some people.

[JamesTheSmoker]

Hi, I'm new in this Forum but not in playing Magic, and specially zoo. I'm an Italian player.
I'm looking for the best version, and here I would like to list my last results to check what build, also in your opinion, is better and why.

02/07/2010 - GPT Madrid - Milano - 1st place - 89 players

4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
4 loam lion
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
1 jotun grunt
3 gaddock teeg
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
4 path to exile
3 price of progress
2 sylvan library
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateu
1 savannah
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

SIDEBOARD

3 krosan grip
4 reb
2 jitte
1 vulcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor

The tournament:
Merfolks: 2-1
Zoo: 2-0
WU-tang: 2-1
Pro-bant: 2-1
ANT: 2-0
I.D.
I.D.
ANT: 2-0
Dredge: 2-0
ANT: win by drop

Impressions were good, specially for gaddock MD, which made me win both the match against ANT, aided by Aven Mindcensor post side, not so much happy for PoP maindeck, but I loved the race with 12 cc1 drop. In many moments it's like an Intercity rail over the head.
I decided to play the same version at the GP Madrid, except for the mono Jotun Grunt MD taking at his place a mono Duergar Hedge Mage because of the possibility to be killed bay a lot of Counterbalance with Vedalken Schackles.


02/27-28/2010 - GP Madrid - Day 1 - 8-1 - 2225 players

4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
4 loam lion
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
1 duergar hedge mage
3 gaddock teeg
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
4 path to exile
3 price of progress
2 sylvan library
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateu
1 savannah
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

SIDEBOARD

2 krosan grip
1 duergar hedge mage
4 reb
2 jitte
1 vulcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor

The Tournament:
Awarded Bye
Awarded Bye
Awarded Bye
Christoffer Backman - Baseruption: 2-0
Alberto Cortes - Zoo: 2-0
Rogier Kleij - Goblin Rb: 2-1
Marcio A. Carvalho - Zoo: 1-2
Bojan Zunko - Goblin Rb: 2-1
alfredo jimenez palmero - Zoo: 2-1

Day 2

Alessandro Scalia - Canadian *****: 1-2
Lubos Koudelka - Pro-Bant: 1-2
Héctor Cubas - Zoo: 0-2
Sergey Lamzin - Enchantress: 1-2
Drop

Analysing the situation, I didn't expect this result after the 8-1 of Day1.
Canadian won the 2 post-side game, in the first playing wasteland in t2, 2 tarmogoyf in t3 - t4 and 3 submerge in t3 - t4 - t5. Then he won the third game with 2 wastelands and 2 stifle on my fetchlands and I didn't draw lands in 6 turns.
Pro-bant won the first playing the mono jitte main deck on a rhox war monk and neutralizing my path to exile, and in the third one he plays like land - noble hierarch, land - rhox, land - kitchen finks, in my eot plays StoP on my Gaddock Teeg, in his main made Natural Order sacrifying kitchen finks, I played aven mindcensor and he played force of will. Perfect, I couldn't speak.
Zoo won both the game playing in 2 game 7 tarmogoyf, 4 Knights, 6 helix and I never draw a Tarmogoyf nor a Path to exile.

So the situation was like the deck is good but it suffers the mirror match because of the price of progress maindeck and the lack of knight of the reliquary and grim lavamancer. I decided to put in 2 grim lavamancer because the metagame is pushing aggro.


03/07/2010 - Legacy Tournament - 9° place - 38 players

I expected more aggro decks, so I decided to switch a PoP with a Naya Charm, And I wasn't wrong. I won 6 games tapping all my opponent creatures in mirror matches or against pro-bant with progenitus on the board or against canadian. I also decided to put in sideboard some extended stuff to help my inferiority in the mirror: ranger of eos. And it was pretty good.

4 wild nacatl
3 kird ape
3 loam lion
2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
1 duergar hedge mage
3 gaddock teeg
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
4 path to exile
2 price of progress
1 naya charm
2 sylvan library
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateu
1 savannah
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

SIDEBOARD

2 krosan grip
2 ranger of eos
4 reb
1 jitte
1 vulcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor

The tournament:
Pro-Bant: 2-1
Zoo: 0-2 (mulligan 5 in every game and I played only 1 land in every of these)
Canadian ********: 2-1
Zoo: 2-0
Canadian ********: 2-1
Iona-retainer survival: 1-2 (I was paired down and I lost)

The deck is always good, I can't do nothing against mana screw or against other's people luck!!!
Preparing for the Florence's D-Day I decided to play the same deck, whispering to foretell the metagame.


03/13/2010 - D-Day Florence - 178 players

The maindeck is the same of the last one version but I decided to modify my sideboard with 1 more naya charm, and I loved to try Elspeth when siding out the Gaddocks.


SIDEBOARD

2 krosan grip
4 reb
2 ranger of eos
1 elspeth knight errant
1 vulcanic fallout
1 naya charm
2 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor


The tournament
Bant: 2-0
Pro-Bant: 2-0
Faerie Stompy: 2-0
ANT: 1-2 (he makes disfigure on gaddock in the 2nd one and pact of negation on aven mindcensor in the 3rd)
Dredge: 2-0
ANT: 0-2 (he got hands painted from Giotto I think)
Drop

So, after these discussions, I don't think Steppe Lynx or Knight of the reliquary are the best slots to play to fill the discrepancy against some decks, I think is the moment to build it with slots that can be usefull in a lot of MU.

These are my questions:

Do you think that Sylvan Library requires 2 slots or 1 could be sufficient?
What about playing aven mindcensor MD?
What about switching out Price of progress even if they are a closer against a good 35% deck like bant-faeries-baseruption?
What about playing 2 naya charm MD?

I hope this discussion would be not so useless to all, specially for myself.

Bye.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Those who are saying Zoo is only good in the early game are incorrect. You have inevitability on a huge percent of the DTBs.

Also, FoD gives you as lot of attacks you otherwise can't make; For example, you can attack a 2/2 figure into your opponent's war monk and they will probably not block since they don't want to lose it. Situations like these can happen turn after turn, and it results in a lot of extra damage. I've played with Figure longer than probably most of the people in this thread, and I've never been disappointed by it. I got 3rd out of 83 at the vestal duel for duals with 3 figures in my deck, and they were awesome all day. So obviously figure is a viable choice.

[stu55]

Those who are saying Zoo is only good in the early game are incorrect. You have inevitability on a huge percent of the DTBs.

Also, FoD gives you as lot of attacks you otherwise can't make; For example, you can attack a 2/2 figure into your opponent's war monk and they will probably not block since they don't want to lose it. .



This is kind of awkward. What is keeping them from swinging back with the War Monk, thus negating the 2 damange you just dealt? You need to expand a bit more on this statement to have it make sense...

In the list I ran, the 2 cards I would consider changing are the knights...maybe FoD fits there, maybe Aven Mindcensor. I just don't like having to sink the mana into FoD to make it amazing...

[Nelis]

But its not optimal. And I am sure any serious discussion about the deck would not include a 2/1 for 2 where its 2 abilites are as avg as possible in this format. Zoo is already made to beat blue decks so the islandwalk is about as irrelvant as possible. The regeneration is also average because this deck is built to attack and that is mostly a defensive ability.

The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong. Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.

I am just making some counter-points about your claims and having a discussion about it...you seem pretty insecure since you just jumped all over it as if it was attack on your dog or something...geez, some people.

Have you actually played the deck yourself? I can't count the times I went into midgame with enough lands on the board. That's why you want some cards that can have an impact in midgame as well. KotR does this and so does FoD. That is not to say it always happens, that's why I wouldn't even try testing Ranger of Eos myself, but if you happen to have a 'surplus' of lands then FoD is a very strong card. The amazing thing about FoD is that it's a card that has an impact in any phase of the game and is of use early, mid and late game. If you do reach late game and you do draw a a Fod then it's lethal the next turn.

Maybe you run Steppe Lynx (I don't) which might explain why you're so 'scared' of getting into midgame. I've noticed more people in this thread feel the same way about it as you. I don't know why but there must be a reason to it. Maybe it's because of different metagames? I'm in a aggro/aggro control metagame myself. Anyway my experience with the deck equals that of Baileyarch.

To adress your point. You can play FoD turn 1 and on turn 2 a Kird Ape or whatever. Then attack and pump the FoD. Then on turn 3 you have a potential 4/4 which is a must answer for your opponent. I only run 2 FoD and wouldn't play more myself so it doesn't happen that often but when it does it's absolutely no problem.


This is kind of awkward. What is keeping them from swinging back with the War Monk, thus negating the 2 damange you just dealt? You need to expand a bit more on this statement to have it make sense...

In the list I ran, the 2 cards I would consider changing are the knights...maybe FoD fits there, maybe Aven Mindcensor. I just don't like having to sink the mana into FoD to make it amazing...

If they block they lose their Monk. If they don't then you dont pump FoD and play another creature or two. They can't attack you back because you hit them back even harder next turn.

[hungryLIKEALION]

If they block they lose their Monk. If they don't then you dont pump FoD and play another creature or two. They can't attack you back because you hit them back even harder next turn.

This is, essentially, the point. They often can't afford to swing back with the monk because you have enough other pressure to force it to stay on defense. Zoo is very good in a game of attrition due to its ability to play a multitude of goyf-size or larger creatures. When you play 4 goyfs, 2 knights, and 2 FoDs you essentially have 8 must answer threats while your threshold opponent still only has 4 goyfs that fit in that category.

Progenitus has changed this math slightly, but provided you can answer him, you still have inevitability.

[Rizso]

I play Steppe Lynx. I find it be better then Kird Ape in pretty much every state of the game, early-mid-lategame. Sylvan Library and Knight of the Reliquary have kept him very consistence durring all the parts of the game.

[sauce]

I am playing 0 Fireblasts and 1 Sylvan Library.
Just recently, I switched to 2 KoR and 1 FoD main.

List:
4 goyf
4 kird ape
4 lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage
4 wild nacatl
2 kor
1 fod
2 gaddock teeg

4 bolt
3 pte
3 helix
3 chain lightning
1 sylvan library

11 fetchlands
1 horizon canopy
3 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain

SB:
2 jitte
3 mindbreak trap
2 gaddock teeg
2 krosan grip
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 faerie macabre
2 wing shards

the hard matchups are obviously ad nauseam and the quad teeg and 3 mindbreak in the 75 makes it winnable.

i would like to comment that i have not tested steppe lynx but if i imagine in the mirror its not great and i would rather have kird ape.
lynx is obviously superior in games where you're winning or have an unanswered KoR, but at that point even a kird ape would be winning.
lynx doesn't block - obv which is a liability in the mirror.

wing shards are there for reanimator/natural order decks.
macabre is also there for reanimator since they run force of will for the crypt/relic. randomly good vs other things like survival/43lands.

fod is fine turn 1 even if you don't get to pump him for 4 turns because you're curving out.
he still is a threat, that if unanswered will go the distance.
i may consider going down to 3 kird apes for another figure. there is only 1 land in the deck that cannot play/pump it - basic forest.

[stu55]

Have you actually played the deck yourself? I can't count the times I went into midgame with enough lands on the board. That's why you want some cards that can have an impact in midgame as well. KotR does this and so does FoD. That is not to say it always happens, that's why I wouldn't even try testing Ranger of Eos myself, but if you happen to have a 'surplus' of lands then FoD is a very strong card. The amazing thing about FoD is that it's a card that has an impact in any phase of the game and is of use early, mid and late game. If you do reach late game and you do draw a a Fod then it's lethal the next turn.

Maybe you run Steppe Lynx (I don't) which might explain why you're so 'scared' of getting into midgame. I've noticed more people in this thread feel the same way about it as you. I don't know why but there must be a reason to it. Maybe it's because of different metagames? I'm in a aggro/aggro control metagame myself. Anyway my experience with the deck equals that of Baileyarch.

To adress your point. You can play FoD turn 1 and on turn 2 a Kird Ape or whatever. Then attack and pump the FoD. Then on turn 3 you have a potential 4/4 which is a must answer for your opponent. I only run 2 FoD and wouldn't play more myself so it doesn't happen that often but when it does it's absolutely no problem.



If they block they lose their Monk. If they don't then you dont pump FoD and play another creature or two. They can't attack you back because you hit them back even harder next turn.



Did you even read the post I made right above yours? It clearly states I ran a list of Zoo and even 2-3 posts ago I said I ran Richard Bland's list from the GP, so go ahead I will take a minute to let you look it up so you can tell me i am running steppe lynx and scared of 'mid' game (which I actually said was "lategame" there chief)....good?....congrats on reading...

I will agree that Eos seems clunky and slow. Other than goyf, what guys are going to play that are going to scare the war Monk? Knight never really did anything for me. I think you need lands that do things to play him, other wise he is just a giant idiot on the board. FoD might be better, don't know, didnt test him, but I think those 2 spots in my list clearly need to be something with more umpf...

Between Madrid, Indy, St.Louis, and Dallas, there were 8 Zoo decks in the top 16s.There were a total 5 FoD played, so that should say something about the card if good players are not even using it...

[KrzyMoose]

i would like to comment that i have not tested steppe lynx but if i imagine in the mirror its not great and i would rather have kird ape.
lynx is obviously superior in games where you're winning or have an unanswered KoR, but at that point even a kird ape would be winning.
lynx doesn't block - obv which is a liability in the mirror.

You should sideboard out Lynx in the mirror. You should also sideboard out Kird Ape in the mirror.

Lynx is better than Ape, at the moment. Both are bad in the mirror, but it doesn't matter, because you should be SB'ing them both out.

*edit* Also, it's a mistake to be playing less than 2 Sylvan Library.

[sauce]

the library is not good in multiples, and if you have one in your opening hand and then draw the 2nd one, its basically a dead draw.
i dont want to ever topdeck it when i need a burn spell, blocker, etc. playing one is not a mistake.
tom ross (5k winner) also only played one.
i don't rely on the library, if i get it - great.

i think its obviously way better if you are playing vs control decks all day. if my meta had more blue decks, id consider playing 2.
in an aggro meta its a mistake to play 2.

[Rizso]

I find that Sylvan Library wins the game in the mirror for example. Sylvan wins alot of games for me, especially against people with swords to plowshares as their spot removal.

[sauce]

I find that Sylvan Library wins the game in the mirror for example. Sylvan wins alot of games for me, especially against people with swords to plowshares as their spot removal.

that can be a testiment to card quality, im sure sensei's divining top would be better in the mirror than library.
if two decks are identical and play skill is comparable, he with more card quality will usually win.

[Rizso]

The top needs mana and sylvan can draw extra cards. With Helix and Jitte from the board in the aggro mirror The extra life can be trades for more cards wich do happends.

[KrzyMoose]

The top needs mana and sylvan can draw extra cards. With Helix and Jitte from the board in the aggro mirror The extra life can be trades for more cards wich do happends.

Incidentally, you should be sideboarding out Helix in the mirror.

[Rizso]

Why may i ask?

[KrzyMoose]

Why may i ask?

Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. In the mirror, the cards you're worried most about are the big guys - Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. Helix doesn't deal with either of those, without 2-for-1'ing yourself. (Well, unless your opponent is terrible). The life is pretty much irrelevant. In fact, you should be bringing in 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Zoo mirror is all about who has the last big guy standing, and it's really awkward to be holding a Lightning Helix when your opponent has a 5/5 Knight or 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

You keep Bolt in since it's only one mana, and you still care enought about Wild Nacatl and Lavamancer.

This is also why you should be 'boarding out Kird Ape/Steppe Lynx. Ape, especially, can't attack through a Wild Nacatl and gets outclassed very quickly. Both of those cards die to every removal spell in the deck.

It depends on how much of the mirror you expect to see, but you should have at least four cards (I already run one Ranger maindeck, so I only bring in three cards) to bring in. Note, however, that these four cards should also be good against other decks.

Right now, I bring in 2 Swords to Plowshares and a second Ranger of Eos. Both Swords and Ranger are really strong in other matchups. If there's a lot more of the mirror in your meta, you can bring in more stuff.

*edit* If you only have 4 cards to bring in, but you run both 4 Ape/Lynx and some number of Helix, I recommend boarding out the Ape/Lynx. Unless you want to bring in Jitte (which you shouldn't, as I explain below) for some reason, in which case board out the Helix.

I do not recommend bringing in Jitte, however. It's okay to bring in one, since that at least makes your opponent respect it. But it's bad for the same reasons that Ape and Lynx are bad. The plan in the mirror is to kill all of their guys, anyway, so Jitte very rarely makes any difference. That is, you can never equip it and expect that creature to survive combat - it's a waste of both mana, a card, and, usually, a turn. (Obviously, sometimes you get lucky and you can get an active Jitte, which is why it's okay to have one. But that's pretty much just variance).

It's really useful to pay attention to other formats, since this is pretty common knowledge in Extended, and has been relevant in the Zoo/Red-based aggro matchup in a lot of past formats.

*edit 2* Just wanted to note that I don't mean to be or come of as condescending.

[Nelis]

Did you even read the post I made right above yours? It clearly states I ran a list of Zoo and even 2-3 posts ago I said I ran Richard Bland's list from the GP, so go ahead I will take a minute to let you look it up so you can tell me i am running steppe lynx and scared of 'mid' game (which I actually said was "lategame" there chief)....good?....congrats on reading...

I will agree that Eos seems clunky and slow. Other than goyf, what guys are going to play that are going to scare the war Monk? Knight never really did anything for me. I think you need lands that do things to play him, other wise he is just a giant idiot on the board. FoD might be better, don't know, didnt test him, but I think those 2 spots in my list clearly need to be something with more umpf...

Between Madrid, Indy, St.Louis, and Dallas, there were 8 Zoo decks in the top 16s.There were a total 5 FoD played, so that should say something about the card if good players are not even using it...

I've looked up your list (which I indeed overlooked) and it doesn't differ much from what I play. This leads me to conclude that you absolutely don't know what you are talking about at all. But I had that confirmed already if you have to ask these kind of things:


This is kind of awkward. What is keeping them from swinging back with the War Monk, thus negating the 2 damange you just dealt? You need to expand a bit more on this statement to have it make sense...

In the list I ran, the 2 cards I would consider changing are the knights...maybe FoD fits there, maybe Aven Mindcensor. I just don't like having to sink the mana into FoD to make it amazing...

This is what let me conclude you're actually afraid of midgame:



The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong.


Now, there might be something wrong with my interpretation and/or assumption skills but I can read.



Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.


You haven't even tested FoD so I wonder how you know it's bad? I pick my cards when they have proven their worth to me. If other players come to different conclusions that's fine by me as long as they base their conclusion on their own real findings.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

But its not optimal. And I am sure any serious discussion about the deck would not include a 2/1 for 2 where its 2 abilites are as avg as possible in this format. Zoo is already made to beat blue decks so the islandwalk is about as irrelvant as possible. The regeneration is also average because this deck is built to attack and that is mostly a defensive ability.

The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong. Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.

I am just making some counter-points about your claims and having a discussion about it...you seem pretty insecure since you just jumped all over it as if it was attack on your dog or something...geez, some people.

Chain Lightning so weak, idk if you know. I hardly ever wanna see the card, and with Zoo being one of the most faced decks out there right now, it makes it even weaker. FOD isn't weak at all. The only different is that you get one less toughness early on, and if you ever draw one late, you make an 8/8, and 8/8s are good, idk if you know.

And now you're seriously bashing my report? I've top 8ed with this deck more times than you've played games of Magic.

And Zoo is also an amazing midrange deck as well. Idk if you've read the primer, or any posts from a while back, but it works just as efficiently because you're still drawing the most efficient creatures in the format, AND the most efficient burn in the format. You also see people in recent pages running Ranger of Eos, so whynot call them out on that as well, it makes the deck more midrange, even though it's straightup good.

[stu55]

So the Loxodon <3 Neils (has anything good come out of Netherlands or the boondocks anyway?) love fest aside (seriously, t8 more than I have played...playing since '95 I seriously doubt that)


I am just saying, I rather listen to pros that did well with the deck in real events and not some randoms that decide to run river boa in the deck.


I just think I rather have a card that is more of an impact card when I cast it then a random dude that just appears and usually dies immediately.

[sauce]

the upside to figure of destiny is very high. he is great at every point in the game.
this is why i play 1, if you do not know how good he is, you should play test with it.
edit: it may be correct to play 2 or 3 like a few people on the thread have done.
plus, under a blood moon he does not suffer.

[nodahero]

Not to break up your little love fest going on bet.l.. for christ sake.,. River Boa was one card in one persons deck, He explained why he ran it and admitted it may not have been ideal. Just because he enjoys "showing off" a little dosn't make him a bad player. What if the only decks he played that whole day were temp thresh? Then the Boa would be trully sick... Block goyf all day... O your goyf went plowing? Why don't I come say hi for a second?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The shop where i play actually has the most competitive metagame in Southeast USA if i do say so myself. We get 30 people weekly to play Legacy. We hold PTQs. Some of our players, oh yeah Probasco, worked on his 2nd place GP Chicago Counterbalance list there. Another one of our player top 8ed a SCG 5k. So please don't lecture me on where I'm from or where i place.

But seriously I'm done. Welcome to my ignore list stu!

[Pulp_Fiction]

Nice, and he deserves it, idiot. You also forgot to mention that you have to play against the best combo player in the south WOOOOT!!! sorry, its st. patricks day and i am drunk as hell. BUT ersiou;y , this thread is pure comedy gold, keep it coming!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Nice, and he deserves it, idiot. You also forgot to mention that you have to play against the best combo player in the south WOOOOT!!! sorry, its st. patricks day and i am drunk as hell. BUT ersiou;y , this thread is pure comedy gold, keep it coming!

But seriously, you're one of the best combo players i know. Well, the best i know haha. I would learn to play combo, but it feels like homework trying to learn Doomsday stacks:laugh:

[Pulp_Fiction]

But seriously, you're one of the best combo players i know. Well, the best i know haha. I would learn to play combo, but it feels like homework trying to learn Doomsday stacks:laugh:

Ty, it is basically homework! In order to play DD right you have to put in a lot of hours just goldfishing. What actually helps if you do want to learn how to play, put a basic Hybrid list together and print off the DD stacks and play the deck with the stacks beside you. But unless you play NLS, you really don't need to know more than about 4 DD stacks. But goldfishing is the key!

[Kird Ape]

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

[Nelis]

Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. In the mirror, the cards you're worried most about are the big guys - Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. Helix doesn't deal with either of those, without 2-for-1'ing yourself. (Well, unless your opponent is terrible). The life is pretty much irrelevant. In fact, you should be bringing in 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Zoo mirror is all about who has the last big guy standing, and it's really awkward to be holding a Lightning Helix when your opponent has a 5/5 Knight or 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

You keep Bolt in since it's only one mana, and you still care enough about Wild Nacatl and Lavamancer.


I find this very interesting. I would say you would want to keep Helixes in. That way you can get rid of opponents Nacatls and even an occasional Tarmogoyf. This way you have more chance of getting your Nacatls trough and you can keep your STPs and PTEs for their big creatures. There might be situations where you otherwise have to use PTE and STPs for their smaller creatures.

Why would life gain be irrellevant in the mirror? I'm very interested in your thoughts behind that statement.

@Kird Ape. If there's anyone to blame for shutting down the conversation it's Stu55. He has been a bit of a dick.

[Tacosnape]

Boarding out Helix in the mirror is pretty close to the worst idea I've ever heard. While I see the logic behind it, there are going to be a lot of times where -both- players have a large guy standing. Having Helix lets you win by trading swings. It's a -huge- swing in a damage race. There are other cards to board out if you actually have things worth boarding in.

[Kird Ape]

For those of you that do run helix, what does your burn package look like? Are they basically a substitute for Chain Lightning? I tried Helix as a 2 of instead of Fireblast and they always felt clunky and slowed me down. I do like the idea of life gain especially with Sylvan on the board and the amount of fetches we run plus Horizon Canopy.

I think we've established that Zoo can handle it's own in the Mid-game, but when playing with Chain you get turn one Lynx(FoD, Kird Ape, etc.) go. Then on turn two Chain your guy, attack and then drop Nacatl. That seems like a much better play then just gain 3, kill random critter and attack with Lynx. In the early game is where we're strongest, no? Why not stay on their neck with even more pressure?

[sauce]

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/feature-article-the-boss-wins-again-scg-legacy-report-1st/

see the list there for helixes

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

First off, i figured our posts would get deleted.

And second, :cry:

And third, I run this little number of burn
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning

That's all ya need in my opinion. Some people run Fireblast as a random 2of, but i have always advocated against it.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

You are more than welcome :) Its what I do. Hmm, I don't have a River Boa, sold em a long time ago. And stopping discussion .... 2 people don't make or break the discussion, just ignore them. People like Rico Suave are on my ignore list because they never add anything meaningful to a conversation, update the ignore list.

[mishima_kazuya]

Won 4 Tarmogoyfs at the Blue Bell Legacy tourney yesterday. I didn't test a lot lately but I have 1.5 years of experience with this archetype. If I had tested more I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be playing the below list. Btw, 2 Taigas, cuz no one had another Taiga to lend me, so eff the Wizards reprint policy.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [CHK] Forest (2)
2 [CHK] Mountain (1)
3 [A] Plateau
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[sauce]

how did the no path to exile treat you? i am too concerned about opposing goyfs and tombstalkers, etc to not play paths.

[Kird Ape]

That is great that you won. Your build is a little aggressive for a "zoo" build, it almost looks like Sligh with Plains for Nacatl, Helix, and some SB stuff. How did having 4 Fireblasts treat you?

My interest is getting peaked about KotR. In my current list I'm running 3 Sylvan, 3 Horizon Canopy, and 2 Treetop Villages. I don't have any 3 drops and am going to test out -1 Sylvan -1 Canopy for 2 KotR. I think it is a mistake to run the Knight and not have some utility to go along with him. I have a 10 fetch package to feed him and I figure come mid game I can get more critters (Village), draw cards (Canopy) or pump up my Lynxes. How about the interaction between him and Sylvan? Not as good as top+fetch, but it will let us look at a fresh 3 the next turn.

I'm almost certain that I will not miss the Canopy, but I'm not so sure about the Library. Is anybody running something similar, I only slightly recall another member mentioning a utility package for the Knight, but I think they were suggesting a Wasteland or 2.

[sauce]

I honestly do not like the Treetop village / Wastelands builds, its just not Zoo.
Its some type of weird Naya control deck. Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?
I run 11 fetchlands and 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Library and 2 KoR.
Yesterday in the tournament I never even drew/cast KoR and still won.
I don't remember the last time I even had knight in play.

[Eldariel]

I honestly do not like the Treetop village / Wastelands builds, its just not Zoo.
Its some type of weird Naya control deck. Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?
I run 11 fetchlands and 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Library and 2 KoR.
Yesterday in the tournament I never even drew/cast KoR and still won.
I don't remember the last time I even had knight in play.

Because Wastelands allow you to keep the game in the early game phase where Zoo wins, and gives you an inkling of chance against combo as a manascrew tool? Honestly, Wasteland has been played in Sligh-type decks and even more-so in more creature heavy aggro decks for as long as it has existed; the effect is just precisely what such a deck wants. And Treetop Village? If they topdeck an answer to your Knight, you'll look really silly if you didn't have anything to fetch, but if you fetched a Treetop or a Horizon Canopy, you are still a threat ahead even though they topdecked the answer. Against many removal-heavy decks, you don't play the tempo game but the "last threat in play"-game. This is also how the mirror works.

There are lots of weird conceptions about what "Zoo" means and the purity of archetype, but honestly, that's all pretty trivial. Either way, we're talking about an archetype that aims to reduce opponent's life to 0 ASAP and while using efficient removal and burn to deal with any potential obstacles and to speed up the clock. If the deck packs large amounts of burn and is prone to burning the face, it'll fall more under Sligh while if the primary gameplan is winning by swinging and the deck packs over 20 creatures, chances are it falls under Zoo/"Naya Deck Wins" (Red Deck Wins in Naya-colors, with pseudo-control elements to keep opponent off-balance long enough to win and using burn primarily as removal). Both can make great use of Wasteland, but neither has to. Wasteland should be treated as a spell, but a very efficient one at that due to the deck's speed. Knight+Waste is all pure bonus; it's an extremely powerful synergy but not the reason either card is in the deck.

[Kird Ape]

The reason why Treetop is in the deck is simply to have a chance against an active counter/top. It slips in and puts pressure on them, helps out against mana denial, and with KotR, is another threat that gets played for basically free.

There were 2 instances where I thought Treetop was the nuts at SCG Richmond:
1) Pridemage go.
Standstill go.
Treetop Village go and proceed with beats until he had to break his own standstill; 4/4 trees ftw.

2) Ability to get G without having forests and allowed the zoo player (Hatfield) to avoid Submerge while he played his threats and easily won.


"Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?"

I think it has something to do with me being super ultra mega cheap and I want the most out of everything I buy/use. If I'm going to use a creature with an ability, I want to exploit it for all it's worth. The way I'm looking at it, I already have all the things in my deck that improve KotR (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy). So why not use KotR's ability that will improve my board, hand, super attack (Treetop, Horizon Canopy, Steppe Lynx) to it's fullest.

[Nessaja]

I think it has something to do with me being super ultra mega cheap and I want the most out of everything I buy/use. If I'm going to use a creature with an ability, I want to exploit it for all it's worth. The way I'm looking at it, I already have all the things in my deck that improve KotR (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy). So why not use KotR's ability that will improve my board, hand, super attack (Treetop, Horizon Canopy, Steppe Lynx) to it's fullest.
You realize you're using valuable spots in your deck for otherwise suboptimal choices because of 4 cards in your deck? This means that the times you don't draw your 4-off, or your 4-off gets countered/removed you're playing a suboptimal deck.

[mishima_kazuya]

Based on my experience playing Extended Zoo, Treetop Village as a one of with KotR was a pretty good addition. I was never sad to see it.

I think Wasteland might be a solid addition for this deck, but that would require a huge overhaul on the manabase. You'd probably have cut the white down to a minimum and play more like a RG sligh deck.

And we all know how deadly a deck with fast beats, efficient burn AND solid land destruction is. :eek:

[Nelis]

Based on my experience playing Extended Zoo, Treetop Village as a one of with KotR was a pretty good addition. I was never sad to see it.

I think Wasteland might be a solid addition for this deck, but that would require a huge overhaul on the manabase. You'd probably have cut the white down to a minimum and play more like a RG sligh deck.

And we all know how deadly a deck with fast beats, efficient burn AND solid land destruction is. :eek:

I don't think you should treat them as lands but as spells. You don't have to change your manabase that way (or play a different deck)




There were 2 instances where I thought Treetop was the nuts at SCG Richmond:
1) Pridemage go.
Standstill go.
Treetop Village go and proceed with beats until he had to break his own standstill; 4/4 trees ftw.


Why on earth would he play a Standstill if you have a Pridemage out? Or did he have a bigger creature than 3/3 on the board?

[toor]

It seems like Stirring Wildwood might be better then Treetop. obviously costs one more to activate, but doesn't trade with Nimble, Mishra's Factory or Wild nacatl (or even a 3/x folk). Fixes your mana a bit also.

[sauce]

I don't think you should treat them as lands but as spells. You don't have to change your manabase that way (or play a different deck)



Why on earth would he play a Standstill if you have a Pridemage out? Or did he have a bigger creature than 3/3 on the board?

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

[mishima_kazuya]

The idea is that a singleton manland to along with KotR gives Zoo more options. It turns dead midgame lands into threats, pretty nice in the mirror and against control decks.

[Kird Ape]

"the standstill player was clearly terrible"

I'm sorry guys, I forgot to add that he had a mishra out and was clearly trying to bait the Zoo player into using the Pridemage on Standstill.

"You realize you're using valuable spots in your deck for otherwise suboptimal choices because of 4 cards in your deck? This means that the times you don't draw your 4-off, or your 4-off gets countered/removed you're playing a suboptimal deck."

I read this like 5 times and I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. What it seems like you are saying is that 1 or more of the 5 cards I named (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy, Treetop, Steppe Lynx) are bad and or dependant on KotR. KotR isn't even in my current build.... Could you please explain exactly what I'm running (I haven't posted a deck list) that is suboptimal.

All I'm saying is I already run Lynx (4), Fireblast(2), Treetop(2), Canopy(3), and Sylvan (3). So I drop a Canopy and a Library to pick up 2 KotR.

"it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially"

If you have a crap hand like that, there is no shame in the T1 Treetop. T2 leaves you open for Goyf or Nacatl and Lavamancer/Lynx/FoD. I'm running 24 lands and the 2 of Treetop did not slow me down all day at SCG Richmond. Hatfield ran 3 and he didn't have troubles either. In the 3 solid days of testing prior, neither of us had issues. The treetop isn't counted as a land, we counted them as spells. Getting G is just a bonus.

[Nelis]

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

Yeah I feel the same. For every random win you'll also have a random lose.

[Eldariel]

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

That argument applies to all non-basics. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

[Nelis]

1. That argument applies to all non-basics.
2. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.

[kiwi]

Today I played in a local tournament (60 Participants) with the Hatfield version with treeptop village, Lynx, etc... I did top 8, only losing in round 4 againts goblins, and in top 8 againts counterbalance-natural order deck.

I really love to have swords to plowshares in side board, and sylvan libraries did their job, in round 5 I drew 5 extra cards againts bant:)

Zoo is a solid option with a tons of very good match ups in the metagame.

[Eldariel]

1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.

I was referring to the Moon/Magus/Waste-list. You can often "sneak" it into the play tapped without costing you much tempo. A 2-lander with Treetop is a fine keep if you didn't have a 1-drop anyways (those hands can be keepable in some circumstances). And yeah, it'll occasionally be problematic, but we have a pretty damn good manabase; hell, we even run basics in the deck specifically 'cause we can afford few single-colored mana sources.

[Kird Ape]

1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.



Technically the Treetops aren't counted as lands, we cut spells for them. The reality is that you're adding more lands (24 in my build) and you might start to flood mid-game, this is exactly why Knight shines, he can turn extra lands into cards or manlands. So, I guess if you want to split hairs you aren't tossing out a 2 land hand. It's still a one lander.

Sunday night is testing night and I'm going to play as many games as I can with the new configuration and we'll see if it impacts any matchups. I'll try to post up any results I remember when I get home.

[Nelis]

Technically the Treetops aren't counted as lands, we cut spells for them. The reality is that you're adding more lands (24 in my build) and you might start to flood mid-game, this is exactly why Knight shines, he can turn extra lands into cards or manlands. So, I guess if you want to split hairs you aren't tossing out a 2 land hand. It's still a one lander.

Sunday night is testing night and I'm going to play as many games as I can with the new configuration and we'll see if it impacts any matchups. I'll try to post up any results I remember when I get home.

Ok agreed, if you treat them as we talked about Wastelands then I can agree.


I was referring to the Moon/Magus/Waste-list. You can often "sneak" it into the play tapped without costing you much tempo. A 2-lander with Treetop is a fine keep if you didn't have a 1-drop anyways (those hands can be keepable in some circumstances). And yeah, it'll occasionally be problematic, but we have a pretty damn good manabase; hell, we even run basics in the deck specifically 'cause we can afford few single-colored mana sources.

Oh sorry. I wasn't paying attention.


I was referring to the Moon/Magus/Waste-list. You can often "sneak" it into the play tapped without costing you much tempo. A 2-lander with Treetop is a fine keep if you didn't have a 1-drop anyways (those hands can be keepable in some circumstances). And yeah, it'll occasionally be problematic, but we have a pretty damn good manabase; hell, we even run basics in the deck specifically 'cause we can afford few single-colored mana sources.

Oh sorry. I wasn't paying attention.

[JamesTheSmoker]

Where I can find the Hatfield version and the list with magus + wastelands?

[sauce]

That argument applies to all non-basics. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

not all extended zoo runs the treetop, tribal zoo for example doesnt.
fast zoo should never run slow come into play "spells"

[Eldariel]

Where I can find the Hatfield version and the list with magus + wastelands?

E.g. here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31518) or by scrolling few pages back in this thread. Or searching for "Hatfield" in this thread, probably.

Magus-version, eh? Haven't seen well-finishing lists with MoM yet. As for Waste, Sven Dijt's list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32847) is nice as is Brain Six's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23983); though Six's is more Sligh-style.

[Nelis]

Yeah I like his list but I'm more comfortable playing my 'own' list. He said he would definitely play a 4th Wasteland main next time and he would cut another burn spell for it. As well add the 4th Knight of the Reliquary. ( http://www.kvdeckmasters.org/Forum/index.php?topic=13070.0 [dutch] )

I also like he did the opposite of what a lot of people in this thread agree on (even though I don't). He plays a 5th 'Kird Ape' (2 Kird Ape & 3 Loam Lion) instead of cutting a few Apes (and not replace them with Loam Lions).

BTW when it comes to Madrid and StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Richmond decklists it appears that it doesn't matter that much what version of zoo you play if you want to make top 8. see: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31518 (compare decklists at the bottom of the page)

So we might as well stop posting in this thread.:tongue:

[sauce]

i mean if you want to destroy lands and such, why not also run terravore alongside knight of reliquary and some life from the loam, tranquil thickets and some seismic assaults...

oh wait thats a deck called aggro loam.
its going to be the new big thing Aggro Zoo Loam.

[Eldariel]

i mean if you want to destroy lands and such, why not also run terravore alongside knight of reliquary and some life from the loam, tranquil thickets and some seismic assaults...

oh wait thats a deck called aggro loam.
its going to be the new big thing Aggro Zoo Loam.

Waste as a tempo card in a deck topping out with 2-3 3-drops and Waste as a gameplan in a deck built around 3-drops are two very different things; Waste just happens to be a card that suits both.

[JamesTheSmoker]

BTW when it comes to Madrid and StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Richmond decklists it appears that it doesn't matter that much what version of zoo you play if you want to make top 8. see: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31518 (compare decklists at the bottom of the page)

So we might as well stop posting in this thread.:tongue:

I know...At GP Madrid I was 8-1 the in Day1 losing only by Marcio Carvalho and then I did a beautiful 0-4 in Day2, and my decklist was totally different from those in top8.

I posted my last results and decklists 2 pages ago, but nobody of you seems interested to talk about these, and I'm so afraid of that, 'cause I wish to learn something from your different opinions 'bout the deck.

[sauce]

I know...At GP Madrid I was 8-1 the in Day1 losing only by Marcio Carvalho and then I did a beautiful 0-4 in Day2, and my decklist was totally different from those in top8.

I posted my last results and decklists 2 pages ago, but nobody of you seems interested to talk about these, and I'm so afraid of that, 'cause I wish to learn something from your different opinions 'bout the deck.

The things that stand out about your deck to me is the lack of PtE and the inclusion of 3 main deck PoP (which is not bad but random)...
also why the singleton jotun grunt?

I dunno if 3 teegs is needed main, I mean i guess its techy vs AnT/Belcher, but I run 2 myself main.

I'd prolly go to 2 PoP and 2 Teeg and run 2 PtE main...

[DCTopTeam]

How about running a singleton of Natural Order and Progen? Anyone tried this? Well, if it sounds stupid then forget it. Anyways, havent played this deck for a while since I T4'ed a year-end tournament last December. Its been almost 3 months now, LOL. Im planning to attend another big tournament this weekend with practically the same list except that im changing 3 Firespouts in the SB to 3 Teegs due to my STUPID loss to ANT and dropping 1 Chain and 1 Bolt in favor of 2 Fireblasts. Heres the list below. Id like you guys to comment if its still the optimal build for Zoo. Predicted meta is Goblins, ProBant and Merfolk.

2 Arid Mesa
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Chain Lightning
4 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Lightning Helix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Fireblast

SB/
3 Firespout (WILL CHANGE TO 3 Teegs!!!!!!!!!)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip

[sauce]

I like 2 Wing shards in my board, maybe 3 is the right number though if you're playing vs Reanimator/Progenitus, its just a house.

[JamesTheSmoker]

The things that stand out about your deck to me is the lack of PtE and the inclusion of 3 main deck PoP (which is not bad but random)...
also why the singleton jotun grunt?

I dunno if 3 teegs is needed main, I mean i guess its techy vs AnT/Belcher, but I run 2 myself main.

I'd prolly go to 2 PoP and 2 Teeg and run 2 PtE main...

I run 4 PtE maindeck, maybe tou didn't saw them in the lists...
However, now I play always 3 Gaddock but no more PoP cause MU are changing. I can't side out Gaddock 'cause ANT here is a tier1 very played, like Naturale Order in bant.

[kiwi]

Id like you guys to comment if its still the optimal build for Zoo. Predicted meta is Goblins, ProBant and Merfolk.



You have to auto include 4 Grim Lavamancer in main, mvp vs tribal decks.

[DCTopTeam]

You have to auto include 4 Grim Lavamancer in main, mvp vs tribal decks.

And I was thinking of putting in Goblin Guides instead of Mancers, LOL!

[Eldariel]

And I was thinking of putting in Goblin Guides instead of Mancers, LOL!

Honestly, the only time I've ever been sad to see Grim Lavamancer has been against ANT; and those matches you generally win or lose based on other cards anyways. I'd never play any less than 4.

[sauce]

Honestly, the only time I've ever been sad to see Grim Lavamancer has been against ANT; and those matches you generally win or lose based on other cards anyways. I'd never play any less than 4.

I agree, I love lavamancer, he makes combat so unfair

[miko]

Lavamancer is one of the most important cards of the deck. I agree with that, but sometimes it might be to slow especially if you are running a tempo-oriented list. I tend to play 3 Lavamancer and 1 in SB for tribal matchups.

[JamesTheSmoker]

What about testing a version less explosive with more control stuff?
I'm testing a list that suites quite well against others aggro or aggro/control and hasn't auto-loss with ANT.

I tried to keep Gaddock maindeck to lock ANT and Natural Order in primis, and then to use the stoneforge mystic to have an advantage against aggro/aggro control and Naya Charm to have an unaspected stuff for all, it's never awful except for ANT.

The list is

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Hath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateu
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild nacatl
3 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
1 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Naya Charm
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Aven Mindcensor


The aggro component in my opinion is the best, 9 high drops for the race, 3 mancers to set the game and only 1 figure for the late game.
4 tarmo for sure, then 3 gaddock for ANT to force your mulligan in 1st game, 3 qasali and 2 mystic.
Knight is no good for my metagame.
Mystic can take collar to strenght mancers abilities or the classic jitte, and naya charm often chooses tap all opponent creatures to strike the final attack.

Sideboarding 2 Ranger and 1 more jitte against aggro (taking gaddock place) gives you a lot of stuff to change the game in your favor in every moment of the game, you can choose FoD, mancers if you have the collar, cats or whatever you need.
Aven is a jolly for ANT, survival and natural order and the rest of the side is almost comprehensible...

EDIT:

my playtests at the moment:

ANT: 4-6 pre-side, 5-5 post-side
Pro-Bant: 7-3 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Goblin: 8-2 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Merfolk: 7-3 pre-side, 8-2 post-side
Canadian: 5-5 pre-side, 6-4 post-side
Survival: 4-6 pre-side, 7-3 post-side
Zoo: 7-3 pre-side, 7-3 post-side

Not so much, but enough to realize that it's not so bad.

[Svenyboy]

Well, I think in your deck are 4 Grim Lavamancer better than 3. I like the Combo with Basilisk Collar and Lavamancer. Furthermore I think Figure is better than Kird Ape and Loam Lion, maybe you cut the Loam Lion for 2 Figures and 2 Naya Charm for 2 KnightotReliquary. Beside I think 4 Pridemage are necessary for this deck cause than you have more hate against some Countertopbuilds, Dreadnoughts and Stompybuilds.

[Rizso]

Pridemage makes the deck so all arround and flexible without losing any speed or consistence.

To people with jitte in their board wich matchups do you bring it in for?

[Svenyboy]

To people with jitte in their board wich matchups do you bring it in for?

Mirror, Rock, Merfolk, Burn and other fast Aggrodecks, Canadian Thresh. I really like Jitte against Thresh, if Jitte resolves, Jitte will win always against Thresh, it is sooooo good. Against Rock I exspect Jitte from the Rock player and my Jitte is the 5 removal for the oppenents jitte with pridemage. Merfolk the same furthermore Jitte is win against merfolk too.

[DCTopTeam]

How about running a singleton of Natural Order and Progen? Anyone tried this? Well, if it sounds stupid then forget it. Anyways, havent played this deck for a while since I T4'ed a year-end tournament last December. Its been almost 3 months now, LOL. Im planning to attend another big tournament this weekend with practically the same list except that im changing 3 Firespouts in the SB to 3 Teegs due to my STUPID loss to ANT and dropping 1 Chain and 1 Bolt in favor of 2 Fireblasts. Heres the list below. Id like you guys to comment if its still the optimal build for Zoo. Predicted meta is Goblins, ProBant and Merfolk.

2 Arid Mesa
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Chain Lightning
4 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Lightning Helix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Fireblast

SB/
3 Firespout (WILL CHANGE TO 3 Teegs!!!!!!!!!)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip

First place (63 players) with not exactly this build. Will write details later today. :tongue:

[sauce]

I went 5-0-1 today (26 people) with my build http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12624-%5BDTB%5D-Zoo&p=438768&viewfull=1#post438768

4-0-1 in the Swiss
1-0 in Top8 then split store credit

Top4 decks were Zoo (me), Bant Survival (Iona & Loyal Retainers), Aluren and Homebrewed Rock build.

Rd1 2-1 vs RGBw Aggro Loam w/ Burning wishes, Devastating dreams, Tombstalker & Knight of Reliquary main.
G1 I get him really low between chain lightnings are Lavamancer & Goyf.. but he is at 3 and I have no cards in hand as I play my goyf and he devastating dreams for like 5 so I take him to 1 w/ Lavamancer, everything dies.
We play draw-go for a few turns while he finds lands and starts loaming again while I draw Chain lightning & Lightning bolt... waiting to get a land.
Thankfully he already blew up all my basics with Devastating Dreams so I have no way to draw those (which is good since I need a fetch and burn in hand). I draw Arid mesa and chain him.
G2 He gets a broken Mox diamond, land, Chalice for 1 turn 1 and I can only muster up a Gaddock teeg t2 while he has a Crusher.
I see the writing on the wall after he plays Life from loam and pack em up for G3.
G3 I get a T1 Nacatl followed up with a t2 Goyf while he makes a Chalice for 1. I savagely rip Krosan grip and get his Chalice before combats so goyf is now a 3/4 and I start smashing him.
He gets a T4 Knight of Reliquary w/ 2 fetches in yard. I savagely rip a Lightning bolt and swing in.. He blocks goyf and I bolt his Knight post combat and play my 2nd Goyf.
He draws and plays Loam, I swing for a lot and he devastating dreams on his turn but cant kill my goyf and concedes.

Rd2 ANT 2-0
G1 he keeps a hand w/ a lot of disruption but I just play t1 Kird ape, t2 Gaddock teeg and get him with double goyf a few turns later as he is unable to go off.
G2 more of the same but with 4 Mindbreak traps and 4 Teegs main this time. Blow out as he keeps an Island and ponder w/ enough gas to go off if he can only get Black source. 2 Brainstorms and 2 Ponders later he cant get another mana source and I win.

Way to beat 2 of the worst matchups I have... Sick life.

Rd3 vs Mono black w/ Nev Disks, Bojuka bogs, etc. (The one list that top8'd SCG 5K Indy) 2-0
G1 I win the dye roll and go t1 Lavamancer as he goes Swamp, ritual, hymn nabbing 1 of my lands and a spell... while feeding my mancer. I play nothing since I can't draw land and he hymns me again, now I am down to just a goyf in hand and no land to play it.
I savagely rip a mountain and produce my goyf and together him and Lavamancer get him as he draws no creatures the entire game but only 4 Hymn to tourachs!
G2 I bring in Jitte and K-grip and I just get there by savagely ripping 2 Qasali pridemages for both his Phyrexian arenas before he gets to draw any cards from them. Eventually a KoR and Nacatl get him.

Rd4 vs Mono blue Merfolk (Yay!) 2-0
G1 & G2, Zoo does what zoo does to little blue fish.

Rd5 vs Aluren who is also 4-0 so we ID into Top8.


(Top8) Rd 6 vs Mono blue Merfolk (from rd4) 2-0
I get paired vs the Merfolk player I beat in the swiss, so its a no brainer I ask to play it out.
I get him in 2 quick games as he is unable to beat a t1 Nacatl and a t2 Lavamancer (which I sandbagged since I wanted him to FoW the nacatl if anything as I had Goyf in hand as well) Sick life.

Rd7 I get paired vs The Rock and seeing as its a bad matchup I am OK w/ the draw. Everyone is fine with that.

Only diff to the list I made is SB: -1 Jitte +1 Mindbreak trap. Main: -2 Lightning Helix +1 PtE +1 Chain Lightning

[blue_mage]

First place (63 players) with not exactly this build. Will write details later today. :tongue:



Congrats DCTopTeam for the strong finish! So your list, kind of different build :smile:

Hope you can post your match ups!

[Dazed]

I will be playing zoo at this moment. I think that the discussion about Dark Confidant is still important. I believe that Steppe Lynx has not been fully exploded preciselly because of the lack of black in today´s zoo lists. So, what about a 11 fetchland-4 color build that uses this 2/1 body as draw engine?


I am currently testing this 61 cards list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Priedmage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx

2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

4 Path to Exile

1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa´s Jitte

20 Lands:

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Savanna
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

SB:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod´s Crypt

I know it may look iffy because of the pure aggro nature of zoo, but if you think about it it is not that unorthodox. When compared to Kird Ape, the Lynx is almost allways better in the early game (you know, with a high fetchland count).

Against control the Confidant is superb and when intertwined with S. Library you have a montrous advantage. Running a single Jitte has been nice because with this engine it does not look random anymore.

Combo is still a bad match up for us but we can still try to race their Ad Nauseam range (overall, with the help of a little cat that may punch them by four on turn two and then a bolt that got them down to 13).

About the mana base. I am trying with only two black sources (1 Scrubland and 1 Bayou) and, since the Kird Apes are out, only a single Taiga. I would love to play another Taiga (and also Savvana) but I can´t find a space for it. The Fetch Lands are a must not only because of the Lynx but also because of KoTR. Any advice here would be greately appreciated.

Of course, it is difficult to play against tempo thresh or even eva green because of the mana denial plan that characterize those constructions. However, it is not impossible to race them (specially eva green, whichs suicidal strategy acts against it when facing aggro).

Thanks for reading and for your help.

[lordofthepit]

I will be playing zoo at this moment. I think that the discussion about Dark Confidant is still important. I believe that Steppe Lynx has not been fully exploded preciselly because of the lack of black in today´s zoo lists. So, what about a 11 fetchland-4 color build that uses this 2/1 body as draw engine?

I'm a fan of including good cards (such as Dark Confidant) at the expense of relatively weaker ones (which is the case with whatever it replaces). The big question if whether the manabase can sustain it and whether the superior power is worth the tradeoff in stability--and the answer would depend on how the change affects various matchups.

I suspect that this isn't the case in most matchups, or Dark Zoo would be more widely played by now, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility right away. I'm very curious how the testing plays out--please let us know how it goes!

[JamesTheSmoker]

I have played tribal zoo for at least two years, and I have stopped playing it cause it's impossible to win a match with canadian. Wasteland and stifle are the only enemies of this deck.
If canadian wasn't in the metagame, I would play a different list

4 nacatl
4 steppe lynx
2 grim lavamancer
3 qasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
2 gaddock teeg
2 knight of reliquary
4 lightning bolt
4 tribal flames
3 path to exile
3 vindicate
4 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
4 arid mesa
1 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
1 bayou
1 badland
1 scrubland
1 volcanic island
1 forest
1 plains

60 cards, 21 lands (11 fetch)

Vindicate and tribal flames are the most important cards for this type of zoo. You can't leave them out.
My best results with this deck are 6-2 in the Annecy legacy in 2008 (35° on 290 players), and I won and top8ed several 40-60 players tournaments, with those lists on deckcheck.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22184
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22345
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22892

I abandoned this deck because of many canadian and stacks in the metagame, but I don't know if now it's the moment for its resurrection...

[MTL10]

is there any advantage the would will people to run loam lion over extra kird ape? if you ask me, it's so stupid. the are more sorces of red in the deck than white. i don't see anything else that would persuade me otherwise.
also, on that deck that won the 63 person tournament: are you seriuosly only running 3 lightning bolt? HAHA, wow. i know some people are stupid but that's ridiculous to only run 3 bolt when you're running the INARGUABLY INFERIOR chain lightning in the deck. grats on the great finish but the list just seems wrong to me.

[Nelis]

is there any advantage the would will people to run loam lion over extra kird ape? if you ask me, it's so stupid. the are more sorces of red in the deck than white. i don't see anything else that would persuade me otherwise.

Loam Lion cannot get countered or killed by Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast.

[troopatroop]

Loam Lion cannot get countered or killed by Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast.

Right, but going further, they will still have that BEB in hand waiting. What's worse, them destroying Kird Ape or countering a Burn spell?

In searching for sideboard cards in my binder, I found some Flametongue Kavu. Wouldn't these be effective against Bant decks? They kill the occasional Tarmogoyf, Pridemage, and most importantly Rhox War Monk. I think I'm gonna give them a try.

[KrzyMoose]

Right, but going further, they will still have that BEB in hand waiting. What's worse, them destroying Kird Ape or countering a Burn spell?

It's worse to even give them that option.

[troopatroop]

It's worse to even give them that option.

What are you saying here? You're going to have other red cards for them to stop, and sometimes it would be better if they went 1for1 for your Kird Ape/Loam Lion instead of an important burn spell. It's not always worse, not even close. I'd be happy to see their SB cards deal with my Kird Apes tbh.

[KrzyMoose]

What are you saying here? You're going to have other red cards for them to stop, and sometimes it would be better if they went 1for1 for your Kird Ape/Loam Lion instead of an important burn spell. It's not always worse, not even close. I'd be happy to see their SB cards deal with my Kird Apes tbh.

I was going to write a response, but I think this article by PV illustrates the idea better than I could:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/18753_PVs_Playhouse_Making_Decisions_in_Magic.html

It should be open to everyone.

The relevant part is this:

"By the same token, do not give your opponent more choices! Of course, this does not apply to completely stupid individuals. Some guys just look like they’ve been Mindslavered every turn, and to those you don’t mind giving a lot of choices because you know they will make the wrong ones, but you shouldn’t need any help beating those. If you are paired against a good player, do not give him choices!

I remember reading in more than one place that Loam Lion was better than Kird Ape - that, all things considered, the fact that it died to Deathmark was not relevant, because if your opponent wanted to spend that Deathmark on your Lion he wouldn’t have one to kill your Goyf, Nacatl, Baneslayer, Reliquary, etc. This is simply not correct. Your opponent does not have to Deathmark this guy just because he can! With Kird Ape, your opponent cannot cast Deathmark, but with this guy he has the option to either do it or not, and this can only be good for him! If he is going to die to any of the previously mentioned cards, he is simply not going to hit this guy, and he will be just like a Kird Ape. If he is dying to this guy, though, then he is much worse! What if your opponent’s hand is four Deathmarks? What if he just needs some time to kill you and so doesn’t care about the big guys? What if he is on two life and this is your only guy? It is hoping too much that your opponent will misplay and hit this guy when he shouldn’t - it is much better to hope that, from time to time, he is going to actively want to kill your guy, but then won’t be able to because his spell can‘t target it. "

*edit* Yeh, it's about Extended Zoo, but the point is still applicable.

*edit 2* Also, I think Steppe Lynx is better, depending on your meta, than either Ape or Lion. If there's a lot of the mirror, Ape/Lion might be better. But, I think that in almost all other matchups, Lynx is better.

[Nelis]

Right, but going further, they will still have that BEB in hand waiting. What's worse, them destroying Kird Ape or countering a Burn spell?

Most damage is done by creatures because they can attack multiple times. So if they can't destroy my Loam Lion they're welkom to counter my burn spell but my Loam Lion would have done its damage. Besides Loam Lion would have enabled me to put pressure on them and to deal with my Lion they're likely to tap out. So I have a window of opportunity to use my burn spells anyway.

[nodahero]

As for the Loam Lion vs Kird Ape debate... I think the question is really more direct than you have made it so far.

Kird Ape dies to BEB and HBlast.
Loam Lion dies to Deathmark.

Do you want you value the ability to remove opponents choices?
Do you expect a higher density of Blasts or Marks?

Personally I don't think there is a right answer honestly because there are so many variable that adjust from game to game. Personally I prefer Lion simply because your opponents will never use blasts on Ape (from personal experience) but opponents will occasionally be an idiot and Mark the Lion instead... I would rather lose my Lion than my Teeg.

[Nelis]

Personally I don't think there is a right answer honestly because there are so many variable that adjust from game to game.

That's why I run a mix of both.

[DCTopTeam]

First place (63 players) with not exactly this build. Will write details later today. :tongue:

Ok as promised, here is my decklist that top-ed a 63 player Legacy tournament last 27 March 2010. A number of pages back, I managed to place 4th in a 60 player tourney last December losing to ANT in the Semis because I didn’t have an SB for it. Well, lessons learned for me. 2nd to 8th place is as follows: UGR Fae (this deck won that December tournament), Canadian Threshold, UG Merfolk, Mono Red Burn, Green Stax Aggro, Dark Depths Combo and Slivers.

First off, the decklist:

Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah

Critters

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Loam Lion
2 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
60

Sideboard
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
15

Explanation for decklist:

1. No Lightning Helix – Yes I have 0 Helix. Maybe people here can remember that I am not a fan of Helix because it’s a 2cc removal. It helped me in the sense that it gave immense pressure to opponents as I almost always had T1 Nacatl or Ape or Lion, T2 spot remove using a 1cc (Chain, Bolt or PTE) thus swing for 3 or 2 and still manage to drop another 1cc threat. I didn’t regret completely dropping it.

2. Sylvan Library upped to three (3) from my previous two (2) – Was my MVP all day! Enough said. Got the 3-Library concept from Alix.

3. Two (2) maindeck Teegs – I learned my lesson the hard way. I also had one on the side. This was crucial in the matchup against UGR Fae. Will elaborate later.

4. Loam Lion – Was also huge. I had a lot of 1cc threats that immensely pressured opponents early on.

5. Figure of Destiny – Got this from HLikeALion. It’s still worth playing if you ask me. Id probably cut it to two (2) though since it’s a little mana-intensive.

6. Bloodstained Mire – This was supposed to be Arid Mesa but I didn’t have the time to look for one because I was not expecting to play this deck weeks before the tournament.

1st Rd. BG Rock

Game 1: I spot-remove everything he lands while I beat him down with 2 Nacatls and 1 Ape. Had a S. Library in play. WIN

Game 2: He disrupts my hand and I can’t recover. Gatekeeper and Nyxathid finishes me off. LOSE

Game 3: I can’t remember how I beat him (sorry) I remembered I had a Loam Lion. He Deeds me twice but I still won. After the game I still have a Goyf, KoTR and a Nacatl in Hand. WIN

Match 2-1; Overall 1-0

2nd Rd. GWB Beats

Game 1: All he could do is Vial. He drops a Mother of Runes which I immediately take care off. He drops a Spectral Lynx, got me worried since I had a Goyf and dint want him to recover. I take care of the Lynx (Bolt) since he had no open mana to regen it and I win using FoD and 2 Loam Lions. WIN

Game 2: I had Sylvan Lib in play on this one. He starts slow again. He cast a Sword of L and S but I immediately Grip it. I win by Pridemage, Ape, Goyf. WIN

I dint actually see his deck because of the way I won. I don’t know what’s going on but He was running into some mana screws or something. Well, Zoo punishes bad draws right? Not taking anything away from him and his deck, but, my easiest match of the day.

Match 2-0; Overall 2-0

3rd Rd. UGR Merfolk

Game 1: Remove every creature he lands. While Loam Lion, Ape and Nacatl finishes him off. WIN

Game 2: 2nd Turn Chill for him. I see 2 Bolts, an Ape, and a Lavamancer in my hand. I draw red spells for two consecutive turns while he “curves” and beats me down. LOSE

Game 3: Goyf and Nacatl gives him the early damage. I had a Library in play. All he could muster is 3 Cursecatchers. He plays Jitte which I Grip before he equips it to his Catcher. WIN

Match 2-1; Overall 3-0

4th Rd. Slivers

Game 1: I beat him down with Gaddock and some other crits. He had no Crystalline and my removals were free to their thing. WIN

Game 2: I had a slow slow start. His troops fly and can’t be targeted. I had plenty of removals with no critters. LOSE

Game 3: Times up. Needed a turn to kill him… BAD BAD

Match 1-1; Overall 3-0-1

5th Rd. MBC

Game 1: He Extripates my Foothills! Next he Wastelands my Taiga and Extirpates my Taiga! I was shocked of what happened honestly. I was staring at my 1/1 Ape. He beats me down w/ Withered Wretch, Bob, Misha’s Factory and Hypno Spec. LOSE

Game 2: He does his discard thing. He doesn’t play anything significant next. I beat him down with 2 Loam Lion and Goyf. WIN

Game 3: He gambles with a bad but potentially explosive hand. He draws crap the next turns. I win by Nacatl, Goyf. Had Sylvan Library in play. WIN

Match 2-1; Overall 4-0-1

6th Rd. UG Merfolk

We ID

After Swiss I was ranked 5th. I knew that the next rounds leading to the Finals won’t be as easy now. Top 8 after Swiss:

Canadian Thresh
Mono Red Sligh
Mono Green Stompy
Dark Depths
Zoo (me)
UG Merfolk
UGR Fae
Slivers

Quarters Dark Depths

Game 1: I thought that his deck was just some MBC stuff so I PTE his Confidant. A turn later he does his thing. A 20/20 critter got me scooping. LOSE

Game 2: He does nothing significant and I beat him down with Apes, Nacatls, Lions and Goyf. WIN

Game 3: He misplays terribly. He drops a Hexmage and I saw no PTE or STP in my hand. I Dropped Mancer and passed. He drops a Swamp which gave me a sigh of relief. On the same turn, he Senseis, and I think he picked up a Dark Depths. He land dropped the Depths but I reminded him that he already had played a land. Land count during that time was he @ 4 and me @ 3. So if I allow the Depths the land count would be him @ 5 and me @ 3. His mistake is that he didn’t upkeep-Top. He gentleman-ly gets the Depth back in his hand and passes the turn. I Mancer his Hexmage and proceeded with the beatdown of FoD, Nacatl and Goyf. WIN

Semis UGR Thresh

Game 1: He drops an Island and passes. For the next three turns, my fetches got Stifled. Could you believe it??? My fourth land drop was met by a Wasteland. He proceeds with a Mongoose and Goyf beatdown.

Game 2: I give him an early beatdown and some burns. Sylvan Lib was huge. WIN

Game 3: This was back and forth. I fetch a Forest and dropped Nacatl. I fetched a Plateau and swung for 3. He Wastelands my Plateau. I luckily top decked another Plat and Nacatl again swings for 3. Mid game I STP and PTE his Goyfs. He lands another Goyf lucky for me I top decked a KoTR. The dude was 9/9. He resolves and joins Loam Lion on my board. I dropped Sylv Lib again on my next turn and attacked with KoTR which was met by an E. Truth. I recast the KoTR again and during my next turn I Libraried another KoTR, a Goyf and a PTE. Sweet… I pick up the PTE. I beat him down and win. WIN

Finals UGR Fae

Game 1: I take care of his Goyfs which I think was the key. I managed to resolve a Teeg and he joins Kird Ape, Loam Lion and FoD. WIN

Game 2: I dropped another Teeg. I Had Loam and Goyf as well. He drops his own Goyf which I StP’ed. He cast E Explosives but I reminded him that there was a Teeg in play. Last 6 points of damage was dealt by Chain Lightning and Bolt. WIN


All in all, I was lucky that I was not matched up against any combo. There were numerous AnT’s and Dredge (which included my brother) during the day. I was not originally gonna be playing for various reasons.

Add to the fact that my last major tournament was way back last December 2009 wherein I placed 4th. It got me thinking if I was fit (mentally and physically) enough to play. I also only had three hours of sleep before the tournament.

When I arrived at the venue, I tried to be calm and relaxed. It helped me a lot. I was even talking and joking with my opponents during the game. Sorry I was not able to post a more in-depth report. Will do in the next tournament. After the game, I enjoyed a few beers with my brother.

Sweet! Zoo all the way!

[Kanabo]

I just started playing zoo and need some critics of my current decklist:

Zoo

Lands: 20

3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 20

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer

Spells: 20

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard: 15

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist

thanks!

EDIT: Red elemental blast -not- Blue

[Kird Ape]

I keep seeing lists with multiple Savannahs popping up. What is the benefit of Savannah over Horizon Canopy? Yeah, you can fetch it up obviously, but how many times do you fetch 2 Savannahs in the same game? I'd cut one and add Canopy, it is so underplayed and is a good addition to the mid and late games.

BEB? I hope that is a typo for pyroblast or REB. SB is based on meta, so if you are seeing combo constantly I guess that's ok. I'm nervous about the reanimator MU. We've been going over this and it might be ok to board in Faerie Macabre for some instant hate and an answer for the turn 1 nuts draw. I see lands as a bad match up most of the time and with the popularity that I saw SCG Richmond, I think PoP deserves a spot in the side.

I have been a fan of Fireblast, it might be worth cutting a helix and X for 2 of them. Try it out, it really helps sneak in that last bit of damage. 3 Sylvans is also the nuts if you can find the space.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just started playing zoo and need some critics of my current decklist:

Zoo

Lands: 20

3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 20

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer

Spells: 20

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard: 15

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist

thanks!

Cut a Chain Lightning and add another land, and that would be my exact maindeck list. I would split your gravehate though because Pithing Needle still gets ran. And you don't need Blue Blasts so i would run PoP. It's insane in today's meta.

[Nelis]

I keep seeing lists with multiple Savannahs popping up. What is the benefit of Savannah over Horizon Canopy? Yeah, you can fetch it up obviously, but how many times do you fetch 2 Savannahs in the same game? I'd cut one and add Canopy, it is so underplayed and is a good addition to the mid and late games.

My reason:


3. Every time I play this deck I dislike Horizon Canopy more and more. Today I lost the 2nd game vs Belcher because of it. It hurt me in multiple ways: I took 2 damage extra from it, I couldn't play out an extra creature (a fetch land or a forest dual would have been better) and I had Kird Apes die because they were only 1/1. Otherwise I would have been able to deal with his 14 tokens. I know this is just one specific situation but in other matches too my Kird Apes were of no use because Horizon Canopy is no Forest.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

My reason:

Amen to this. I've lost plenty of games to a Nacatl or Kird Ape not getting to optimal levels. Also I've been trying that KOTR that everyone has been jerking off to, and I'm not really fond of em. I run 10 fetches and i still don't get him bigger than Thoctar. And in my opinion, if you're tapping him for his ability, you're doing it wrong.

Edit: I still why he is good though, so noone get their panties in a wad.

[Valtrix]

So, anybody interested in the new level up creature from the new set?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103733&stc=1&d=1270181048

I'm not quite sure what I think of him, but I like him quite a bit. Compared to figure:
+ Needs less total investment to get to max form, which can do the same total damage
+ Can pay investments over more turns
+ Form 2 is better than figure stuck at 2/2
+ First/double strike with Jitte is very strong
- Form 2 is not as good as a 4/4 figure, although it's less mana
- Figure's final form flies
- Only uses :w:
- Can't level up at instant speed

However,I really almost just want to replace kird apes with this guy because I'm tired of him =| However, I'm not sure if it's too greedy to start wanting all the mana for this guy too. Anyway, I wish I had more time to elaborate on the discussion, but seeing as I'm at work I'll leave it here for now.

[sauce]

Amen to this. I've lost plenty of games to a Nacatl or Kird Ape not getting to optimal levels. Also I've been trying that KOTR that everyone has been jerking off to, and I'm not really fond of em. I run 10 fetches and i still don't get him bigger than Thoctar. And in my opinion, if you're tapping him for his ability, you're doing it wrong.

Edit: I still why he is good though, so noone get their panties in a wad.

Agreed on Horizon canopy, I just finally cut mine for the 3rd Plateau. (3 Plateau, 3 Taiga, 1 Savannah)
As far as KoR goes, I am yet to use him for his ability but I do feel that in certain mirror-ish/standoff situations, he can break the stalemate via his ability.
Most of the times when he does come down, he is goyf like size or better.
Another reason I can see him being good is feeding Lavamancer and dodging wastelands.

He does push you to run bad things (IMHO!) like Treetop, Wasteland, Horizon canopy.

[Valtrix]

I don't think he pushes you to run any bad things. Knight is there for only three things in my opinion:

+ always be able to break creature stalemates
+ perhaps get you an extra mana to work with the next turn (and maybe play and use a jitte with your 4 mana)
+ fetch a horizon canopy or 2 so that even if he's dealt with you've gained some CA

You don't need to run anything extra to run him. I think these reasons alone make him worthwhile. Anyway, we're not having that discussion again :P Canopy still seems useful as a 1-2 of extra land. I guess I think that if you're not getting the cards to make kird ape or nacatl their maximum power, then you've probably got greater concerns on your hands. Same goes if you need to spend a lot of life on it.

[Grillo]

So, anybody interested in the new level up creature from the new set?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103733&stc=1&d=1270181048

I'm not quite sure what I think of him, but I like him quite a bit. Compared to figure:
+ Needs less total investment to get to max form, which can do the same total damage
+ Can pay investments over more turns
+ Form 2 is better than figure stuck at 2/2
+ First/double strike with Jitte is very strong
- Form 2 is not as good as a 4/4 figure, although it's less mana
- Figure's final form flies
- Only uses :w:

However,I really almost just want to replace kird apes with this guy because I'm tired of him =| However, I'm not sure if it's too greedy to start wanting all the mana for this guy too. Anyway, I wish I had more time to elaborate on the discussion, but seeing as I'm at work I'll leave it here for now.

Interesting creature!
That guy is definitely test worthy. A 3/3 first striker for WW looks really good (take that Nimble Mongoose and Vampire Nighthawk!).
I don't think he'll be leveled up to a 4/4 too often though.

Comparing it to FoD is hard (which is the only worthy comparison IMO). I'm very fond of FoD and think is a great creature in Zoo. Making it a 4/4 is not hard and I've won a couple of games turning it into a 8/8.

Student is faster... but I'm not sure is better. But I'll definitely test it.

[Valtrix]

Level up doesn't work quite that way, since the creature starts at level 0 (with 0 counters on it), so it's actually W to play, then WW to get to the next form.

[sauce]

Problem is Figure can be "leveled" eot, instant speed, etc, so its less risk for a timewalk and can mess up combat.
This guy is WISYWIG. He won't make the cut over figure.

EDIT: not to mention Figure can be played/leveled with R or W mana

[Grillo]

mmmm...
I asummed creatures started at level 1 (I'm used to PC RPG's).

Well, it's just a cute creature then. It won't even make it into my commons/uncommons cube, because it's a rare :(

Thanks for the clarification. Long live Figure!

[DCTopTeam]

KoTR has always worked well for me. The smallest that he has been for me was 5/5. 3cc @ 5/5 isnt that bad for me (considering he's gonna get bigger late game). Max of two IMHO.

[Svenyboy]

What is the best board card against Storm?

[Solaran_X]

What is the best board card against Storm?

Ethersworn Canonist or Rule of Law are good sideboards against Storm. Mindbreak Trap is good also, but it seems like that card has made Storm play more cautiously and not go off until it has a Duress or Thoughtseize or Orim's Chant in hand.

[sauce]

I am considering -2 Teeg -1 Figure main for 1 Jitte, 1 Basilisk Collar, 1 Stoneforge Mystic.

Pros:
- I already run 4 Grim Lavamancer so Basilisk collar becomes a terminate + gain 2 life.
- All creatures wearing Collar become unblockable or block anything and trade.
- Jitte

Cons:
- Less combo, Staxx hate main deck

Lately our metagame has become infested with Black decks and Midrange rock decks which are bad matchups for Zoo.
Teeg has not been pulling his own in our metagame as it is poorly developed.

Has anyone tried running Stoneforge Mystic before?

EDIT:
I've searched the thread (durrr) and I see people talking about it, but nobody posting results, etc...

[stu55]

I just started playing zoo and need some critics of my current decklist:

Zoo

Lands: 20

3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 20

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer

Spells: 20

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard: 15

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist

thanks!

EDIT: Red elemental blast -not- Blue


Canopy, 1 Path and 1 Library could all go for 2 Teeg and something else, probably Knight. Jitte could even move into the SB too, there are just some matchups where it is awful (vs combo, nimble mongoose, etc). In the SB, drop 1 REB and add 3 Mindbreak Trap. ANT is highly played and there will be a few in every tourney and you are just dead to it otherwise.


So, back to the FoD (and the just as poor river boa of death) over the Knight....there this card called Engineered Explosives. That is why the Knight is better. It gets just as big as the figure, and it doesnt commit you board to dying to EE for 1. Same reason goes for the Student of Warfare. I always want to go 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop, anything else is just poor for the deck

[JamesTheSmoker]

I am considering -2 Teeg -1 Figure main for 1 Jitte, 1 Basilisk Collar, 1 Stoneforge Mystic.

Pros:
- I already run 4 Grim Lavamancer so Basilisk collar becomes a terminate + gain 2 life.
- All creatures wearing Collar become unblockable or block anything and trade.
- Jitte

Cons:
- Less combo, Staxx hate main deck

Lately our metagame has become infested with Black decks and Midrange rock decks which are bad matchups for Zoo.
Teeg has not been pulling his own in our metagame as it is poorly developed.

Has anyone tried running Stoneforge Mystic before?

EDIT:
I've searched the thread (durrr) and I see people talking about it, but nobody posting results, etc...

Here I am.
I made 2 top8 on 2 tournaments running mystic. The 1st one had 96 players and the 2nd one had 47.
But my list is quite different than yours. I run 1 mystic + 1 jitte + 1 collar but I still run 3 gaddock teeg because here in Italy ANT and NO Bant are well played and I dont't want to always lose the 1st game.

In the first one I played with 2 mystic and 2 equipments, without KotR, with libraries. But it was too heavy and I didn't like it so much.
In the second tournament I runned only 1 mystic + 2 equip, with 2 KotR and 1 treetop village, without Libraries. And I love it more, 'cause you never want to see Library when you run those tools.

In both the tournaments I loss at the 1st top8 match, in the 1st VS Faeries Ugr, 'cause I haven't KotR and he made 2 stifle and 2 wastelands in both games. 2 Days ago I loss instead VS ANT with perfect hands, I played Gaddock on the 2nd turn but he made 2 mystic, one searching chain and one searching Dark Ritual. In the 2nd game he started on the first turn with a couple pact of negation, one imprinted and one played on my red el. blast and GG. So I think I have to put something more against ANT in sideboard

[sauce]

Here I am.
I made 2 top8 on 2 tournaments running mystic. The 1st one had 96 players and the 2nd one had 47.
But my list is quite different than yours. I run 1 mystic + 1 jitte + 1 collar but I still run 3 gaddock teeg because here in Italy ANT and NO Bant are well played and I dont't want to always lose the 1st game.

In the first one I played with 2 mystic and 2 equipments, without KotR, with libraries. But it was too heavy and I didn't like it so much.
In the second tournament I runned only 1 mystic + 2 equip, with 2 KotR and 1 treetop village, without Libraries. And I love it more, 'cause you never want to see Library when you run those tools.

In both the tournaments I loss at the 1st top8 match, in the 1st VS Faeries Ugr, 'cause I haven't KotR and he made 2 stifle and 2 wastelands in both games. 2 Days ago I loss instead VS ANT with perfect hands, I played Gaddock on the 2nd turn but he made 2 mystic, one searching chain and one searching Dark Ritual. In the 2nd game he started on the first turn with a couple pact of negation, one imprinted and one played on my red el. blast and GG. So I think I have to put something more against ANT in sideboard

Thanks for validating my attempt at Stoneforge Mystic +2 equip.
I run 4 Mindbreak trap in the SB and am 3-0 vs ANT so far in tournaments w/ this Zoo build.
Granted the pilot is not very experienced.
We do not have Natural Order in our meta, maybe 1 guy plays it.
We do have Staxx & Enchantress, and Teeg is really good vs Staxx and OK vs Enchantress (Moat/Sigil/Replenish)

I am running 2 Teeg, 4 Mindbreak trap, 2 Red Blasts in the SB.
Combo is going to be a bad matchup for creature deck most of the time unless you load up on the Canonists/Teegs, and then your aggro becomes weak.

[JamesTheSmoker]

Thanks for validating my attempt at Stoneforge Mystic +2 equip.
I run 4 Mindbreak trap in the SB and am 3-0 vs ANT so far in tournaments w/ this Zoo build.
Granted the pilot is not very experienced.
We do not have Natural Order in our meta, maybe 1 guy plays it.
We do have Staxx & Enchantress, and Teeg is really good vs Staxx and OK vs Enchantress (Moat/Sigil/Replenish)

I am running 2 Teeg, 4 Mindbreak trap, 2 Red Blasts in the SB.
Combo is going to be a bad matchup for creature deck most of the time unless you load up on the Canonists/Teegs, and then your aggro becomes weak.

I run 4 blasts, 2 aven mindcensor, 3 faerie macabre (for reanimate/dredge/survival which are always present in tournaments) 2 krosan grip 1 duergar hedge mage and 3 anti-aggro slots. I think I would switch it into 4 blasts, 3 faerie macabre, 2 krosan grip, 1 duergar, 1 jitte, 1 ranger of eos, 2 Mindbreak trap and 1 Aven Mindcensor. I run 3 Gaddock MD so 2nd and 3rd game vs ANT would see 3 Gaddock + 4 blasts + 2 Traps + 1 Aven. I hope that 10 slots would be enough.

[spree4567]

I'm relatively new to the Legacy scene. I had been playing Classic on MTGO but have moved over to Legacy now because I like the more varied assortment of decks. I've been having quite a bit of success playing against other decks in the tournament room, however earlier today was the first time I can remember where I was facing another deck and really had no idea how I could win barring my opponent getting awful hands. It was a typical Solitaire/Enchantress deck but it was my first time facing such a deck. He got an early Argothian Enchantress down both games, quickly drew a lot of cards and then had me stuck. What's the best way to deal with these decks?

My list:

Lands - 21
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy

Creatures - 21
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells - 18
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroblast

I put in the Teeg's and the Grip's but they didn't seem to be enough. Are there better sideboard options to stop them from going off? I'm very open to sideboard suggestions. I was thinking of maybe trying Rule of Law out to stop them from playing so many spells and drawing so many cards. Thanks

[sauce]

Enchantress is a bad matchup, try playing Ethersworn canonist instead of Pyroblasts, blue matchups are usually good already and Canonist helps vs Enchantress since they cannot go nuts until they Oring it.

[Svenyboy]

Hello,
is here anyone who knows the card Student of Warfare? How does it work? If you cast it Turn 1 and pump it with W Turn 2 is it Level 1 or 2 then?

[lordofthepit]

Do you guys think this has potential?

Kiln Fiend - {1}{R}
Creature -- Elemental Beast
1/2
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Kiln Fiend gets +3/+0 until end of turn.

I think it can offer a lot of the explosive potential that Steppe Lynx does, although it comes out a bit slower; and obviously, it's a weak topdeck, but slightly better than the Lynx. It might require upping the burn count to a more Goyf Sligh type shell to make full use of its potential. Also wondering whether there are any solid burn spells with Rebound in the upcoming set.

[lordofthepit]

Hello,
is here anyone who knows the card Student of Warfare? How does it work? If you cast it Turn 1 and pump it with W Turn 2 is it Level 1 or 2 then?

It starts at Level 0, so in your case, it's still a 1/1 at Level 1.

Not a bad card by any means, but definitely doesn't make the cut in Legacy Zoo.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Do you guys think this has potential?

Kiln Fiend - {1}{R}
Creature -- Elemental Beast
1/2
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Kiln Fiend gets +3/+0 until end of turn.

I think it can offer a lot of the explosive potential that Steppe Lynx does, although it comes out a bit slower; and obviously, it's a weak topdeck, but slightly better than the Lynx. It might require upping the burn count to a more Goyf Sligh type shell to make full use of its potential. Also wondering whether there are any solid burn spells with Rebound in the upcoming set.

At {R} 0/1, it is comparable with Lynx and superior.

At {1}{R} 1/2, it will not see play in Legacy Zoo (worse than Lynx/Ape) and Legacy Sligh (worse than Goblin Guide).

That said, the mana cost difference is huge because Tarmogoyf costs only 2.

[Rizso]

Tarmogoyf is howover pretty slow for Sligh decks.

[lordofthepit]

At {R} 0/1, it is comparable with Lynx and superior.

At {1}{R} 1/2, it will not see play in Legacy Zoo (worse than Lynx/Ape) and Legacy Sligh (worse than Goblin Guide).

That said, the mana cost difference is huge because Tarmogoyf costs only 2.

Unfortunately, we can only run 4 Goyfs (and 4 Nacatls and 4 Pridemages), which is something I've had problems with for a while now. I wouldn't be surprised if the card is worse than Lynx or Ape, but I'm not ready to entirely dismiss the possibility either.

One subtle difference between this and Lynx is that the deck typically wants to play its lands first, then its creatures, and then its instants/sorceries. That means that there is some inherent tension between grabbing the lands you need to cast your spells and saving them to pump the Lynx; that doesn't exist, or at least not to the same extent, with this card and your instants/sorceries (although this would detract from your ability to play burn during your opponent's turn).

I really hope they print some better cheap creatures in the coming sets; I'm not all that excited with the power creep in the Timmy-style fatties in this new set.

[hungryLIKEALION]

To beat enchantress play EE in your sideboard (which you should be doing anyway) and blow up their enchantresses with it. They never see it coming and it slows them down significantly, allowing you to steal games.

[Obfuscate Freely]

What's the best way to deal with these decks?
The best sideboard card against Enchantress is a little-known uncommon from Urza's Legacy, Harmonic Convergence. It wipes the board without triggering Karmic Justice, and can't be undone by Replenish. Unfortunately, it's about as narrow as you can get.

Other options which may have uses elsewhere include Tranquil Domain, Aura Shards, Devout Witness, Tempest of Light, and other cards in this vein. These are all powerful ways to control enchantments (and, in some cases, artifacts), and may be able to pull their weight against other decks (like CounterTop or Stax). However, none of them are as effective against Enchantress as Harmonic Convergence.

[sauce]

yeah obviously you can play crappy cards but the best are canonist and probably EE as they are the least narrow of SB cards.
canonist also good vs storm obv, just like teeg.

[nodahero]

@Obfuscate freely:

I defiantly disagree on the quality of that card. If you put them all back on top that mean the enchatress player is merely going to chain enchantment into enchatment off of one of the Enchantress critters. It may be better if you get to stack the order the enchantments go on top but I don't remember who stacks them. I THINK the controller of HC picks the order but I am not positive.

[troopatroop]

@Obfuscate freely:

I defiantly disagree on the quality of that card. If you put them all back on top that mean the enchatress player is merely going to chain enchantment into enchatment off of one of the Enchantress critters. It may be better if you get to stack the order the enchantments go on top but I don't remember who stacks them. I THINK the controller of HC picks the order but I am not positive.

I'm pretty sure it's because of Replenish from the Enchantress deck. It's better to not have them in the GY.

They are still very behind after you cast it, enough for this deck to win.

[Forbiddian]

@Obfuscate freely:

I defiantly disagree on the quality of that card. If you put them all back on top that mean the enchatress player is merely going to chain enchantment into enchatment off of one of the Enchantress critters. It may be better if you get to stack the order the enchantments go on top but I don't remember who stacks them. I THINK the controller of HC picks the order but I am not positive.

The controller of the permanents controls the order that the cards are placed on top of his library.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I defiantly disagree on the quality of that card. If you put them all back on top that mean the enchatress player is merely going to chain enchantment into enchatment off of one of the Enchantress critters.
Sure, they get to stack the enchantments on top of their deck, but that is better than letting them simply tap :3::w:, and Replenish them all back at once.

More importantly, since Convergence doesn't trigger Karmic Justice, you should almost always win the game the turn you cast it.

[Al-ucard]

Hi guys.

I'll play a big tournamet next saturday with elves with 6 forestwalk lords since there are a lot of survival decks. Then I expect some zoo decks too and since its a difficult match up I have a question:

What card is the most annoying for the zoo player against an elves deck, dense foliage, or kitchen finks?

Thanks in advance

[Carabas]

I think Dense Foliage would be harder to deal with, but I can't imagine why an elf deck would be playing that over Steely Resolve

[Al-ucard]

Yes, I didn't remember steely resolve, it's much better than Dense Foliage. Thanks

[Pastorofmuppets]

Somebody said EE in the sideboard before. I'm not very experienced with Zoo, but I'm pretty sure that at every CMC you can set it to will screw your board a little bit, too. Plus that's 1-3 mana that could've been spent, on average, on a Tarmogoyf.

[FoulQ]

Somebody said EE in the sideboard before. I'm not very experienced with Zoo, but I'm pretty sure that at every CMC you can set it to will screw your board a little bit, too. Plus that's 1-3 mana that could've been spent, on average, on a Tarmogoyf.

It's good if you like to play the control role in the mirror. Which is usually the case if you feel you are better than the opposing zoo player.

And EE always hits random shit you'd never expect.

[DragoFireheart]

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Kiln Fiend
=====


I don't see why this deck wouldn't want to use Kiln Fiend. For example, with the Lynx you try to hold back mana to make him useful, but with the Fiend you can easily have him attack and cast as you go since you hold burn for finishing your opponent or clearing creatures.

Due to how he works, having him being unblocked is extremely dangerous to the opponent since with him you can easily deal 13 damage in a single turn! (2 bolts + him getting boosted twice).

Finally, if you want him to trade with a early Goyf or a Rhox War Monk, it's relatively easy since all you need to do is cast an instant or a sorcery: even if they counter it, he still gets a +3 boost, which is enough to kill either creature. Lynx would require two land drops for what Kiln can do with only one spell cast. I think his ability to punch through Rhox War Monks, even if the cast spell is countered, is very useful for Zoo in fighting Supreme Blue decks.

He is also a faster clock verus combo decks:

Turn 1: Cast Cat. Opponents life: 20.
Turn 2: Cat hits for 3, Cast Fiend. Opponents life: 17.
Turn 3: Cast a couple bolts (6), Cat and Fiend attack (10). Opponent likely used a least one fetch by now. Opponents life: 0 (or 1 if the opponent didn't use any fetchlands).


I think Zoo decks need to seriously consider using the new Kiln Fiend.

[FoulQ]

Oh, we're doing dream scenarios now? Here's one,

Turn 10: You are in a grueling mirror match. You need a fattie or a solid removal spell. You draw a 1/2 for 1R.

Sure, consideration is probably necessary, but I think the card's terribleness when games are close is horrible. And saying kilin fiend can "easily deal 13 damage" is bullshit, because that requires two bolts that you should be saving as a removal unless your opponent is going to die, and also an active kiln fiend (t3 at earliest) with no opponent removal or opposing creatures. Yes, it can deal 13 damage, and yes, you can get t3 kills against combo, but I can do lots of things with lots of cool assortments of 7 cards in my hand that will totally kick your ass everytime too.

[DragoFireheart]

Oh, we're doing dream scenarios now? Here's one,

Turn 10: You are in a grueling mirror match. You need a fattie or a solid removal spell. You draw a 1/2 for 1R.

Sure, consideration is probably necessary, but I think the card's terribleness when games are close is horrible. And saying kilin fiend can "easily deal 13 damage" is bullshit, because that requires two bolts that you should be saving as a removal unless your opponent is going to die, and also an active kiln fiend (t3 at earliest) with no opponent removal or opposing creatures. Yes, it can deal 13 damage, and yes, you can get t3 kills against combo, but I can do lots of things with lots of cool assortments of 7 cards in my hand that will totally kick your ass everytime too.


First, I never said Kiln alone will deal 13 damage: I said with him you can deal 13 damage in a single turn. Don't twist my words around please.

I specifically mentioned the combo match up since they are not as likely to have main-deck removal first game. I also mentioned that you don't have to double-burn or use a Path on a RWM if you use Kiln Fiend as he can punch through 4-toughness creatures.

I'm not saying he's flawless, but if Zoo is willing to consider Lynx they should at least test Kiln.

[Rizso]

First, I never said Kiln alone will deal 13 damage: I said with him you can deal 13 damage in a single turn. Don't twist my words around please.

I specifically mentioned the combo match up since they are not as likely to have main-deck removal first game. I also mentioned that you don't have to double-burn or use a Path on a RWM if you use Kiln Fiend as he can punch through 4-toughness creatures.

I'm not saying he's flawless, but if Zoo is willing to consider Lynx they should at least test Kiln.

While im open for trying new creatures the 2 mana vs 1 mana for lynx is a huge diffrent and also it would mean im gonna have to play with chain lightnings again. I think the fiend is more of a sligh / Boros creature.

[DCTopTeam]

I just got crushed by ProBANT in playtesting. I always manage to get him into 10 or less life until he gets some RWM into play or pulls off his Progen-NO combo. A friend playtesting during that day also said that he's hard up on the PROBant match-up. DO others have the same experience?

[Angelfire]

At {1}{R} 1/2, it will not see play in and Legacy Sligh (worse than Goblin Guide).

That said, the mana cost difference is huge because Tarmogoyf costs only 2.

ROFL @ that statement. Fun fact: you can play Goblin Guide AND Kiln Fiend in the same deck! Kiln Fiend is an absolute beast in Sligh and you will without a doubt eat those words.

While Kiln Fiend doesn't belong in Zoo, he is a guaranteed 4 of in every Sligh deck.

[sauce]

I wish the Kiln fiend guy and the Plumeveil guy would form a new thread somewhere away from this one.

[Rizso]

While we are talking about new creatures... I for one are going to test out the Kargan Dragonlord in the deck. The deck has really low curve and the extra mana can be spent to the dragonlord and it will gain evasion and able to attack through annoying Rhox War Monks. Notice that not many games with zoo will end fast but they tend to be rather go into mid and late game. While the student will probly be a powerhouse in standard it doesnt gain that much in late game as much as the dragonlord does. Flying and then firebreathing makes it more interesting then a 3/3 first strike that cant win against Rhox War Monk alone.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Dragonlord is expressly worse than FoD...It can't be activated at instant speed, so you can't leave mana open for removal.
And Kiln Fiend is expressly better than Lynx kind of. Don't most people try to keep as close to 20/20/20 as possible? Also, it at least does 1 damage late game, so it might make a Goyf boltable. I know, I'm looking at corner scenarios here. But it's probably a somewhat common one.

[InfiniteJest]

Has anyone tested a landfall croprotation version?

4 lynx
4 nacatl
3 pridemage
3 goyf (or kudzu)
4 plated geopede
3 reliquary
4 path to exile
4 berserk
4 crop rotation
x other cards: more 1 drops, elspeth, burn, vines of the vastwood, hate bears.
prob want 24-5 lands
Toolbox:
karakas, sejiri steppe, wasteland, treetop, bojuka bog
11 fetches
3 basics
3-4 flagstones.
5-6 duals.

Should combo out on turn 2-4. Lacking burn worries may as it may be giving up a lot in matchups like merfolk and the mirror.

-JP

[DCTopTeam]

Ive been testing Goblin Guide in place of Figure and its the Shiznit! Always T1 Nacatl, T2 Guide= swing w/ Nacatl and Guide for 5 and drop another 1cc. Next turn I spot remove and swing for 5 again taking my opponent down to 10 in the process! Dang! What's best, is that I managed to do this a number of times-----> T1 Nacatl, T2 two Goblin Guides then swing for 7!!!

This is very vulnerable though to Dreadstill CT w/ Firespout main build. Ive been testing with my friend and I almost always manage to get him into 5 or less life before he does his Firespout thing or he soft-locks me w/ CB-Top. Now, since "my version" of the deck now deals an insane amount of damage early on, im thinking of replacing the 2 MD Teegs w/ two MD Fireblasts to deal those last points of lethal damage...

Thoughts?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Ive been testing Goblin Guide in place of Figure and its the Shiznit! Always T1 Nacatl, T2 Guide= swing w/ Nacatl and Guide for 5 and drop another 1cc. Next turn I spot remove and swing for 5 again taking my opponent down to 10 in the process! Dang! What's best, is that I managed to do this a number of times-----> T1 Nacatl, T2 two Goblin Guides then swing for 7!!!

This is very vulnerable though to Dreadstill CT w/ Firespout main build. Ive been testing with my friend and I almost always manage to get him into 5 or less life before he does his Firespout thing or he soft-locks me w/ CB-Top. Now, since "my version" of the deck now deals an insane amount of damage early on, im thinking of replacing the 2 MD Teegs w/ two MD Fireblasts to deal those last points of lethal damage...

Thoughts?

It sounds like Sligh with a White splash. I'm not bashing you either so don't take it the wrong way. I've always wanted to run GG and i think Sligh would be the deck to do it with.

Edit: No "Level Up" creature that has been printed so far is better than FoD either.

[Some Guy]

Has anyone tested a landfall croprotation version?

4 lynx
4 nacatl
3 pridemage
3 goyf (or kudzu)
4 plated geopede
3 reliquary
4 path to exile
4 berserk
4 crop rotation
x other cards: more 1 drops, elspeth, burn, vines of the vastwood, hate bears.
prob want 24-5 lands
Toolbox:
karakas, sejiri steppe, wasteland, treetop, bojuka bog
11 fetches
3 basics
3-4 flagstones.
5-6 duals.

Should combo out on turn 2-4. Lacking burn worries may as it may be giving up a lot in matchups like merfolk and the mirror.


combo out on turn two ? seriously ? do you live in a world with no counter magic or blockers ?

[Rizso]

Dragonlord is expressly worse than FoD...It can't be activated at instant speed, so you can't leave mana open for removal.
And Kiln Fiend is expressly better than Lynx kind of. Don't most people try to keep as close to 20/20/20 as possible? Also, it at least does 1 damage late game, so it might make a Goyf boltable. I know, I'm looking at corner scenarios here. But it's probably a somewhat common one.

I for one dont run the 20/20/20 model, atm its 25C/14S/21L. I like the early evasion Kargan Dragonlord gets. If he gets his new form he will be flying to fly over annoying Rhox Warmonk. The removal just cost 1 mana anyway. Mana unused when playing arround daze can be spent on lvling.

[DCTopTeam]

It sounds like Sligh with a White splash. I'm not bashing you either so don't take it the wrong way. I've always wanted to run GG and i think Sligh would be the deck to do it with.

Edit: No "Level Up" creature that has been printed so far is better than FoD either.

Well I dont think of it that way, sort of. Your early game presence would be given by Nacatl (or Ape or Loam Lion or FoD) + GG on T2. Removal (PTE) takes care of opponents mid-game threats (Goyf) and you finish them off with your own Goyfs and/or KotRs + burn. That's an approach im trying right now. I have yet to play this extensively though.

Thanks for the comments anyway :rolleyes:

[Pastorofmuppets]

Well I dont think of it that way, sort of. Your early game presence would be given by Nacatl (or Ape or Loam Lion or FoD) + GG on T2. Removal (PTE) takes care of opponents mid-game threats (Goyf) and you finish them off with your own Goyfs and/or KotRs + burn. That's an approach im trying right now. I have yet to play this extensively though.

Thanks for the comments anyway :rolleyes:

basically. The reasons Merfolk is considering Coralhelm Commander are

a) It has tribal synergy
b) It's just on their curve, with the other 2-drops being a lordbear and a cantripping piker
c) They have zero late-game plans, and that gives them a mana sink.
d) an evasive creature after 2UU, assuming no Vial fun

Of these, Zoo gets
a) No tribal help from Dragonman, ever
b) A beater that costs 2 of one mana (albeit what should generally be your primary color) for a 2/2 with nothing special that doesn't go much further than that unless you sink 1.25 turns of mana into him, assuming a land drop every time. Consider the deck's other 2-drops
c) Something to dump mana that could be equipping a Jitte
d) an evasive creature after RRRRRR

[Malakai]

Please remember at all times that what makes Zoo so frightening is its consistency. If your deck flounders in any way, Zoo punishes you severely. Personally I don't think giving up that consistency is the way the deck should go unless you are picking up a lot of power in doing so.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Please remember at all times that what makes Zoo so frightening is its consistency. If your deck flounders in any way, Zoo punishes you severely. Personally I don't think giving up that consistency is the way the deck should go unless you are picking up a lot of power in doing so.

this pretty much sums up why Dragonlord and friends are bad.
I've said it before, but has anyone ever tried Terravore?

[sauce]

Seems worse than Knight of Reliquary most of the time, does not have any utility, does not feed Lavamancer (or Steppe Lynx for that matter.)
Can obviously be bigger in the mirror match than KoR but less synergistic with the rest of the deck.

[chokin]

Kiln Fiend is probably more of a Sligh creature, if you asked me. I usually save my burn as removal or finishers, but Kiln Fiend kind of rewards risky behavior. I'd also probably play any of my other 2cc options before I played it.

KotR is probably my favorite mid to late game creature out of all of the options I've seen (Thoctar, FoD, KDragonlord, and so on). And I don't like KD...partly because sometimes you're going to need a Savannah and at least FoD can use that mana (and it can "level up" at instant speed)

[DCTopTeam]

basically. The reasons Merfolk is considering Coralhelm Commander are

a) It has tribal synergy
b) It's just on their curve, with the other 2-drops being a lordbear and a cantripping piker
c) They have zero late-game plans, and that gives them a mana sink.
d) an evasive creature after 2UU, assuming no Vial fun

Of these, Zoo gets
a) No tribal help from Dragonman, ever
b) A beater that costs 2 of one mana (albeit what should generally be your primary color) for a 2/2 with nothing special that doesn't go much further than that unless you sink 1.25 turns of mana into him, assuming a land drop every time. Consider the deck's other 2-drops
c) Something to dump mana that could be equipping a Jitte
d) an evasive creature after RRRRRR

Im not a fan of Coral (for now). I have a Merfolk deck and I playtest it extensively with Zoo and the matchup is very much Zoo's favor as we all know it. Now, even if they get that Coral to a 4/4 flier chances are they are within Lavamancer + a burn spell's reach. So its kinda like too late for them. Plus, not everyone on the Merfolk forum is in favor of this guy.

[Master Shake]

I don't know if anyone is aware of this, but this deck needs a new first page. That list s out of date - it predates Conflux. Can you imagine anyone playing zoo before Conflux let alone prior to Alara Reborn? The data on page one is not helpful to anyone.

[DCTopTeam]

I don't know if anyone is aware of this, but this deck needs a new first page. That list s out of date - it predates Conflux. Can you imagine anyone playing zoo before Conflux let alone prior to Alara Reborn? The data on page one is not helpful to anyone.

Let Hatfield do it

[Malakai]

It seems silly to expect the first post of a 123 page thread to be up-to-date.

[LegacyDan]

Then have someone write an updated Primer?

I do seriously think Zoo seems to only get more powerful with time, if only in small ways (Loam Lion > Kird Ape). If a new player comes across this primer and netdecks to OP he/she will be going to a tourney with a decent deck, but not a fully opimized one.

[sauce]

How is Loam Lion > Kird Ape?

Only thing thats better is immunity to Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast.
The fact you have to have a white mana turn one to cast it means you are going to get a Plateau over a Taiga, which seems worse.

[nodahero]

One of the common reasons is because then bad will deathmark the wrong target.

[sauce]

I never seen anyone cast Deathmark in Legacy.
edit: and how can they deathmark... Kird ape?

[InfiniteJest]

Has anyone tested a boom-bust style of zoo like in extended? Too slow? Too metagamed?

Here is the list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32726

[Resist_Temptation]

You do realize that is extended? And to answer your question, I think that in extended boom//bust works fine as there are no other land destruction spells that really work well. But in legacy when the format has many land destruction spells, it is just not worth it to run land destruction. If the deck called for land destruction wouldn't it make more sense to just cut the four cards that would be boom//bust and play wasteland? it just wouldn't fit the tempo of this deck. In playing with this deck only a short time I have noticed that the best games are the games that your mana supply is being used to its fullest every turn.

I know it's logical...but I play strictly blue. I always have mana open...and it seems to win me games..

[alderon666]

You do realize that is extended? And to answer your question, I think that in extended boom//bust works fine as there are no other land destruction spells that really work well. But in legacy when the format has many land destruction spells, it is just not worth it to run land destruction. If the deck called for land destruction wouldn't it make more sense to just cut the four cards that would be boom//bust and play wasteland? it just wouldn't fit the tempo of this deck. In playing with this deck only a short time I have noticed that the best games are the games that your mana supply is being used to its fullest every turn.

I know it's logical...but I play strictly blue. I always have mana open...and it seems to win me games..

Boom/Bust is only played in Extended because of Bloodbraid Elf, you can flip it of the elf and play Bust. If you have played a 1,2,3 and now a 4 drop, you're probably ahead.

[kinda]

Anyone try something like this? I've only tested it a couple of times but it's been working very well, with removal being sparse in legacy and all. Glimpse generally draws 2 or 3 sometimes more which I think is pretty good...at the very least it cantrips.

4 glimpse of nature
4 retribution of the meek
1 Sylvan Library

4 wild nacatl
4 steppe lynx
4 tarmogoyf
4 goblin guide
3 grim lavamancer
4 gaddock teeg
4 qasali pridemage
3 keldon marauders (not sold on them...maybe kird ape)

4 arid mesa
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
1 horizon Canopy
2 plateau
2 savannah
2 taiga
3 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath

[Valtrix]

I feel as if that's a poor way to approach zoo, with glimpse and almost all creatures. For starters, playing elf-combo with glimpse is likely to be much better. Here, we can't use it much because we don't have a way to generate absurd amounts of mana, and we want to be more aggressive rather than trying to string creatures together.

Next, I would say that not playing removal is also a mistake. Bolt, other burn, and path are 2 cards that make this deck tick. Burn lets you increase your clock, and let you pull out of situations where your creatures just can't get there. Path is efficient removal that lets your guys get through and deals with problem goyfs.

Retribution of the meek is really going to do next to nothing for you, since there's no creatures besides reanimator or maybe aggro loam with power 4 or greater that actually matter in Legacy. It's going to be completely dead against other zoo, tribal, thresh, and virtually everything else. Not to mention it costs three.

Last, I think the creature choice is not very optimal, since teegs and mauraders don't really fit the deck well in my opinion. Maurader especially seems like a sligh card and teeg just doesn't help in the main much.

I wish I could elaborate more, but that's what I can say at a quick glance at work.

[InfiniteJest]

Im planning on playing Zoo this weekend.

Deck along the lines of:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 knight of the reliquary
0-2 teeg

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
0-2 lighnint helix or fireblast
0-1 jitte

Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
3 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau (or maybe 2 and an extra fetch)
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Can anyone suggest a sideboard? Specifically with something to help in the reanimator matchup?

I was thinking somethin like
2-3 grips
1-2jittes (if 1 main, 1 here)
3 tormods crypts
2 macabre
2 pyroblast
2 wingshards
1 extra teeg

Maybe mindbreak trap if i expect a lot of ANT? Maybe I want more for the mirror?

Ive never piloted zoo so if someone could link me (or suggest) a good sideboarding strategy, thatd be great!

Thanks!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@InfiniteJest: Half the thread is discussing sideboard options. Just expect a bunch of Reanimator, ANT, NO Bant, Merfolk, Lands, and Dredge. Maybe some New Horizons variants as well.

I might be playing my baby this weekend as well, but I'm not quite sure. I've played against Reanimator a few times and it's just like, hey i can win, oh wait nevermind they have some broken creature with FOW/Daze backup. And i love Ravenous Trap as SB hate but it just doesn't get there against Reanimator. I am truly scared of the deck, because like other combo decks, we have some trouble.

[InfiniteJest]

Ill look through it again :) I think reanimator will be everywhere. Id much rather play an eva-depths hybrid except I already told a friend he could use my wastelands for UW tempo :( May have it sleeved up and try to borrow a set. I see GA as ur location. I live in Georgia too, moving back to ATL in a month. Are you playing Saturday standard too? If so maybe you could give me a quick sideboarding guide in person :)

-JP

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Ill look through it again :) I think reanimator will be everywhere. Id much rather play an eva-depths hybrid except I already told a friend he could use my wastelands for UW tempo :( May have it sleeved up and try to borrow a set. I see GA as ur location. I live in Georgia too, moving back to ATL in a month. Are you playing Saturday standard too? If so maybe you could give me a quick sideboarding guide in person :)

-JP
Yeah i live in the north of Metro Atlanta, it's considered Atlanta but it hardly looks or feels like it. I don't play Standard because it's all Jund or else I'd be more than happy to help. I'll be there Sunday though for sure prolly rocking my all foil Zoo deck. I'd be more than happy to playtest a little beforehand if i can get the time in. I doubt it but i can help out for whatever. I would tell you i was the skinny guy with afro, but i cut the hair because i gotta be a functioning member of society for the medical field i'm studying. Idk if this helps, but I'm the asshole with the yellow polo shirt! Goodluck and i hope to see ya there!

Also, anyone else going to the ATL 5k should meet up with me, whienot, Pulp Fiction, and Thor!

[Valtrix]

Perhaps you should consider leyline of the void for the board. Granted, we can't hard cast it, but any graveyard hate would be needed in your opening hand to be effective anyway, so that drawback isn't really a drawback in my opinion. Reanimator especially would have trouble dealing with it, since they don't really have enchantment hate and counterspells don't work on it. Also, it's pretty amazing against a lot of other things as well, though other decks I feel are a little more equipped to deal with it. If you can just use it to buy a little time, well, then you can probably steal the game because of the speed of Zoo.

[Darkinsanity]

You have an all foil Zoo deck? I'm so jealous. I'm just getting started on it, but I have one foil Goyf so far, and some others. But did you really buy all those Goyf's?

Edit: That post was to Loxodon obviously.

[DCTopTeam]

Goblins is becoming a very hard MU for me. My brother and I playtested yesterday (his BR Gobs ran 3 Lightning Bolts, 2 Weirdings and 1 Terminate) and we were like 3-1 in his favor. His SB packs 3 Perish BTW. Will further test...

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I ended up going 3-2 at the 5k, playing 4 out of 5 bad matchups. I played Belcher, Show and Tell Combo, Dredge, Lands, and Red Death. My deck performed well and i think i have an optimal list finally. My deck played amazingly, but you can't help it when your opponent is playing a deck Zoo can't beat. I am satisfied. Here is the list:

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
3x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Forest

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Figure of Destiny

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Faerie Macabre <----MVP
2x Price of Progress
2x Pyroclasm

Some things about the deck. RUN FUCKING JITTE! You won't regret it at all. The only matchup i would take it out is ANT, and that's about it. It has insane usage against other decks. The sideboard is very very good. I would find room for some combo hate, but i don't think it's worth in a deck without reliable ways to draw maybe 2-4 hate cards against a deck that goes off in the first 2 turns. I ran 6 pieces of grave hate due to the number of Reanimator decks there. I ran into none, but other grave based decks still got fucked. I think the list is perfect in my eyes in terms of consistency and efficiency.

I don't wanna bring up the Woolly Thoctar argument up again, but i will say this: I would have beaten Show and Tell Combo had i been able to put a Thoctar into play instead of a KOTR. The extra 4 points would have headshotted him. But hey that is just one story. I still might throw him in as a 1of though.

I tested the Stoneforge Mystic package as well, and it's pretty damn good. It's just mana entensive so i would suggest 21 to the players wanting to run Stoneforge. Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar fucks shit up.


And my deck is all foil with the exception of my Knights because i just added em so i didn't think to get foils when i had the chance, and Goyfs because i refuse to pay that much money. But my fetches and Jittes are foil, and so is everything else. The stuff that isn't foil is Beta/original set

[tsabo_tavoc]

I ended up going 3-2 at the 5k, playing 4 out of 5 bad matchups. I played Belcher, Show and Tell Combo, Dredge, Lands, and Red Death. My deck performed well and i think i have an optimal list finally. My deck played amazingly, but you can't help it when your opponent is playing a deck Zoo can't beat. I am satisfied. Here is the list:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Figure of Destiny

I don't wanna bring up the Woolly Thoctar argument up again, but i will say this: I would have beaten Show and Tell Combo had i been able to put a Thoctar into play instead of a KOTR. The extra 4 points would have headshotted him. But hey that is just one story. I still might throw him in as a 1of though.


I wonder if you name Ichorid or Red Death the 4th bad matchup but both seem to be pretty manageable. Nevertheless, running into 3 bad matchups is not a fun time.

As you mentioned the short of 4 damage, could it be the consequence of lacking a turn1 creature? You play 9 1cc creatures, lower than the average 11. The slightly higher curve might help your opponents stabilising unless they are tempo decks as well. Not to say your decklist is bad, but the matchups you played (3 combos, 1 control, 1 tempo) were just adverse to your more mid-range focused build.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I wonder if you name Ichorid or Red Death the 4th bad matchup but both seem to be pretty manageable. Nevertheless, running into 3 bad matchups is not a fun time.

As you mentioned the short of 4 damage, could it be the consequence of lacking a turn1 creature? You play 9 1cc creatures, lower than the average 11. The slightly higher curve might help your opponents stabilising unless they are tempo decks as well. Not to say your decklist is bad, but the matchups you played (3 combos, 1 control, 1 tempo) were just adverse to your more mid-range focused build.
It was LED Ichorid, so yes it was a bad matchup, because he jizzed all over my face on turn two doing stupid dredging shit.
And the game i did lose i had Nacatl and FoD in play as well. It's just hard to race Progenitus/Emerakul

[oneiros76]

Lox- pics plz! there's not nearly enough pimp zoo pics floating around.

General format comments: Reanimator is a pretty poopy matchup, and the format in general is becoming more populated with unfair decks. As a result we have to become more disruptive while still maintaining our aggro aspect, which can be awkward. Embrace the mainboard gaddock teeg! He protects your answers to Iona and Sphinx from Force of Will, and can snatch game 1's from most of our bad matchups, which is more and more of the format recently.

Knight of the Reliquary + Karakas is a halfway decent answer to Iona and now the Eureka/Show and Tell/Sneak Attack Eldrazi decks and Marit Lage randomly, though Karakas almost definitely needs to stay in the s.b.

Lightning Helix is questionable over Chain Lightning right now I think, being better against Zoo (which is seeing a decline in popularity) and sometimes ANT, and being worse against our bad matchups like Goblins Reanimator and New Horizons, and being shut down by Iona on white. New Horizons is a pretty bad matchup in general, I think the only thing that would really make it halfway decent is having a manageable number of Jotun Grunts available, although he takes a some change in your maindeck to fit in, also Relic of Progenitus is halfway decent against them.

Kird Ape/Loam Lion over Steppe Lynx is sketchy right now, Lynx being better to race with and to try to kill Iona with a burn spell, but Ape/Lion being entirely better against Goblins. I'd say that Ape/Lion might be a better choice as well for their consistency against the slew of Stoneforge Mystic aggro/control decks, although Lynx's added power can help a lot. Hungrylikealion's sideboard Engineered Explosives can be very good against Stoneforge decks as well.

Answers to Iona:
-Fast damage and them not resolving Sphinx afterwards.
-Fireblast + 3 damage from random other source.
-basilisk collar + grim lavamancer
-Karakas (obv)
-Leonin Bola (!!!) tutorable with Stoneforge, also taps Sphinx if equipped to a white creature! I HAVE NOT TESTED THIS YET :D
-Vines of Vastwood (can be good against Sphinx as well if cast on a Loam Lion/Lynx, but is generally a worse maindeck choice)

I think I'm going to test out a faster version of zoo with Jotun Grunts, Reckless Charges, and Gaddock Teegs main and see how it does against the current meta.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@oneiros76: I am gonna post it soon when i get the time and when i find a good camera don't worry. I've been working on the damn deck since GP:Chicago last year.

And i used to run maindeck Gaddock Teeg because there used to be alot of Dreadstill and it shuts down Explosives and Force of Will, but the deck faded out. Plus having 2 means i might not draw it reliably and sometimes it's just a bear ya know?

[oneiros76]

Lox- Yeah, same with me with the pimping it out since the last gp!

I felt the same way about Teeg for a while and would just board him, but at this point with the metagame the way it is and the percentage that you'll face a deck that he'll be great in first game being fairly high, and since there's usually like a jitte or basilisk collar (or reckless charge in some builds) he's not totally useless g1 against the other decks.

Useful against: dredge, reanimator, new horizons, force/elspeth/engineered explosives decks, ANT/belcher, natural order, Eureka (@_@)
Bad against: zoo, goblins, gw/ stoneforge midrange, rock, survival, merfolk

[Tacosnape]

Oddly enough my teammate Brian ran a very similar list, hit similarly awful matchups (Belcher, ANT, Reanimator, Dredge, Lands, Merfolk), and absolutely hated Jitte all day.

I'm not an enormous Jitte fan in this deck (I say as I just got through raving about how wonderful it was in my Merfolk sideboard). I think running 15+ removal spells along with 3-4 Lavamancers covers removal, Lightning Helix covers lifegain, and Path/having bigger creatures than them covers the need to grow your own guys. So LB, where'd Jitte help you the most in Atlanta?

He also didn't run any basics on the theory that basics make the deck worse against Wasteland, which I strangely agree with in a vacuum. With 2 duals, a Wasteland shuts you off a color. With a dual and a basic, a Wasteland shuts you off 2 colors. He struggled with Lands as a result, though, due to the basics helping more against recurring Wastelands.

[HAVE HEART]

Umezawa's Jitte is great at making crappy guys threatening. Zoo's creatures are already threatening, therefore Jitte is not necessary. There exists no deck with creatures that can battle in combat with Zoo's except other Zoo decks.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@oneiros76: Yeah you're right with Teeg but i guess I'm not used to my guys being a 2/2 or something. I just wish there was faster answers to answer combo pretty much, but i guess that's what ya get for playing Zoo.

@Tacosnape: I see maindeck Jitte like i see maindeck Jace, if you play em when you're ahead then it assures your victory. For me it helped me beat Belcher when they ETW for 12 dudes, and it won me both the games that i won against him. And it helped me race Progenitus against Show and Tell, which is also another bad matchup. I think the card is just amazing. I've also beaten Reanimator by equipping a Lavamancer and ramping Jitte up to 12 counters, also ensuring my victory when my loss was inevitable. I wouldn't cut the card and i found room to make a second copy in the maindeck by cutting a Chain Lightning. It also just beats almost every other deck in the format besides combo, when left unchecked.

@HAVEHEART: Have you ever faced down a Goyf with Zoo before? The task is daunting, especially when you're facing down a Goyf cast by a blue player. It also helps kill a fuckton other troublesome creatures that the opponent won't necessarily block with.

[supachai]

Some things about the deck. RUN FUCKING JITTE! You won't regret it at all. The only matchup i would take it out is ANT, and that's about it. It has insane usage against other decks.

What about it did you find useful? Was it winning a game that you were going to win anyway? Could you give some specific examples?

I used to run a singleton Jitte main and it was never bad. It usually just guaranteed a game win. I've since cut if for Teegs in the main since I find that it actually prevents what we really dislike seeing, things like Natural Order, Engineered Explosives, and tons more. I also like the fact thats it's very good counter bait. It almost always draws out Force of Will, unless they have a removal spell, in which case, it draws removal away from my beaters. And it can still beat for 2.

However, Teeg is certainly bad in a couple matchups, and that brings me to my next point: the Sideboard. Here's my list.

MD

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB

1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Wing Shards
2 Engineered Explosives

Any comments?
I absolutely love Macabre. It shines in the Reanimator matchup but is also useful against Dredge, which I've found to a decent matchup anyway. I'm unsure of the 2 Wing Shards and 2 Explosives however. Shards is good against random aggro, Reanimator, and Progenitus and Explosives is a catch-all. I'd like to playtest but I've got finals...does anyone have any experience they'd be willing to share?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@supachai: Read my last post bro. I give specific examples about how Jitte is amazing and how it dug me out of unwinnable situations.
Also i don't think REB or Wing Shards is necessary at all. Reanimator is most of the time gonna call white, and REB is overkill in matchups you should already be raping.

[supachai]

Haha. I swear that post was not there when I made my mine. >>

Anyway. For the Belcher game, Teeg would have stopped them from comboing out in the first place. Unless they were able to do so on turn 1, in which case you'd probably lose even with Jitte. And against Reanimator, when you equipped your Lavamancer with Jitte how exactly did you get counters? You realize it says combat damage....I'd imagine Lavamancer doesn't do much attacking or blocking.

I do agree that Jitte is good and helping you stay ahead and racing fatties. I originally had 2 in my sideboard and I think I'll add them back. I think there's certain metagames where maindeck Teeg is better and others where Jitte is superior.

Regarding my sideboard. I don't think Iona is actually the scariest of the Reanimator targets against us. And Shards can still get rid of anything else they attack with. Perhaps you're right though. I'll probably be cutting those for the Jittes for now. As for Red Blast, it's another out to things like Counterbalance and kills annoying War Monks. I feel that I'd rather secure the 50-50 matchups than try to beat something like combo that would require so much sideboard space just to even it...not even probably.

Anyway, I'll probably go:
-2 Wing Shards
-1 Pyroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@supachai: I had a counter on it already and i got an attack in with Lavamancer before the reanimation shenanigans began again. I had already traded a Nacatl for Iona by pumping with Jitte so i was in a good position to attack. It got to the point to where i would either kill what he had brought back or headshot him, his choice.

I just think Wing Shard isnt' that good. If i was looking for a fatty hoser, i would look up Reprisal or something of that nature. 3 mana is already steep enough ya know?

[lordofthepit]

I just think Wing Shard isnt' that good. If i was looking for a fatty hoser, i would look up Reprisal or something of that nature. 3 mana is already steep enough ya know?

Reprisal doesn't really do anything that Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares couldn't. The best fatty hoser in color is Tariff, which takes care of all Reanimation/Natural Order shenanigans. However, it doesn't address Iona on white.

[supachai]

Well back to the Shards again, it's not just a fatty hoser. It's crowd control. Stuff like Reprisal and Tariff are very limited in what they can do. Reprisal is targeted and Tariff is card disadvantage and sorcery speed. What I really like about Shards is if they played a spell, I can get a 2 or even 3 for 1. I can also just Bolt an attacker, play Shards, and stop a potential three attackers. Card advantage is key.

[DragoFireheart]

Mirri's Guile


Is there a reason we this is not used over Library? It can dig deeper and is cheaper on mana. I'm guessing the reason is Library can draw cards if we need them.

[Nelis]

That's exactly the reason. And Library digs deeper than Mirri's Guile.

[Valtrix]

Exactly. Library's power to me lies in the ability to draw 2 extra cards right away, then see three new cards next turn. That is, you've gained 1 card advantage, but more importantly have seen 6 cards in three turns.

[oneiros76]

Wing Shards should be cut for Stp at this point, Reanimator names white if they're doing well anyway so you might as well have a removal slot that can be used against Goblins Zoo etc, unless you're worried about Emrakul and Progenitus. I'd say Shards is better against Bant decks but worse against almost everything else. @supachai card advantage is key, but its harder to take advantage of Shards when you're being wastelanded /ported, or just can't play the spell in general.

[Rizso]

I would rather have oblivion ring then swords to plowshares. Specially with Show and Tell geting more played.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I was just suggesting things for the SB. Like i knew i didn't need Pyroclasm exactly but it helped when needed. I could see cutting my grave hate down just a little, but i would even hate to do that too. The combo played i play with are cutting white and Chants all together so perhaps instant speed spells wouldn't be that bad anymore. But then again, i play against some PRETTY OPINIONATED combo players *cough Pulp_Fiction*:laugh:

[Malakai]

Basilisk Collar is actually pretty good against Reanimator. I've been including it in my CounterTop control deck, which plays Trinket Mages.

[HAVE HEART]

@HAVEHEART: Have you ever faced down a Goyf with Zoo before? The task is daunting, especially when you're facing down a Goyf cast by a blue player. It also helps kill a fuckton other troublesome creatures that the opponent won't necessarily block with.

Path to Exile (two-for-one), any animal and a burn spell (two-for-one), your Tarmogoyf and a burn spell (trading your burn spell for a Tarmogoyf). These situations all seem fine, especially at the time when Tarmogoyf can battle (past turn three generally). Obviously it sucks if their Tarmogoyf stops all the beats, but that is why Zoo runs cards other than creatures. Between Sylvan Library and Horizon Canopy, some card disadvantage is never a problem (from killing the Tarmogoyf). This is why Zoo was able to thrive at a time Counterbalance was running rampant. The best plan for them now is to turn three a Progenitus, which sometimes still does not win.

[InfiniteJest]

Congrats on going 3-2 in a hostile environment. I had my zoo deck all set up but decided not to play as I didnt think I had much of a prayer in such a combo heavy field. I was also disheartened after my finish on saturday where I finally felt like i played well and had the deck tuned right for the meta but still only managed 1-3.

-JP

[Cesarius]

If you're one of those persons who cringes at a Domain Zoo list, I suggest you skip this post entirely, or explain why Naya Zoo is strictly better, as my search attempt failed:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
2 Vindicate

3 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrublands
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Dark Confidant is just teh nuts. Vindicate just plows through random stupid stuff and Tribal Flames at 4 or 5 can deal with things that Lightning Bolt can't (Rhox War Monk, Tombstalker).

But mostly, you're splashing black for Bob and Vindicate. Granted, you lose some speed compared to the WRG version, but it comes with added consistency and unfair card advantage.

Comments? Will this work? (As this is mostly a draft in my head right now.)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Will this work? (As this is mostly a draft in my head right now.)
No.

[DCTopTeam]

I am not really a fan of equipments in Zoo. I might playtest it for chrisake but Jitte for example costs 2 to cast and 2 to equip which in my opinion is slow... Not to mention the deck is so much susceptible to Wasteland.

[supachai]

I'm kinda agreeing with everything that's been said. If you're staring down a Goyf, having a Path would be far better than having a Jitte (even a Wing Shards wouldn't be bad). I don't feel like it does that much in any specific matchup that wouldn't be done better by other cards. In fact, part of the reason I felt like i was running it was to destroy opposing Jittes.

I looked back through the thread and I think a couple people posted lists with Shards in them...could those people offer some insight?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

But i run them together, and everyone else suggested Gaddock Teeg, which doesn't do jack-shit when it comes to staring down a Goyf. It's like I'm replacing cards. It's good but i wouldn't run it if you're all Fireblast/Steppe Lynx oriented.

[Angelfire]

If you're one of those persons who cringes at a Domain Zoo list, I suggest you skip this post entirely, or explain why Naya Zoo is strictly better, as my search attempt failed:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
2 Vindicate

3 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrublands
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Dark Confidant is just teh nuts. Vindicate just plows through random stupid stuff and Tribal Flames at 4 or 5 can deal with things that Lightning Bolt can't (Rhox War Monk, Tombstalker).

But mostly, you're splashing black for Bob and Vindicate. Granted, you lose some speed compared to the WRG version, but it comes with added consistency and unfair card advantage.

Comments? Will this work? (As this is mostly a draft in my head right now.)

I can't get behind Wasteland in Domain Zoo. If Vindicate is so good, why only 2? Seems kinda random/janky.

[Lego]

Comments? Will this work? (As this is mostly a draft in my head right now.)

While I think it needs some tuning, I also think it can be pretty powerful. I used to run a similar list right around the time of the last CaNGD contest.

Thoughts: I don't think Wasteland belongs in here, although if you can make it work, more power to you. Evasive Action can be pretty good out of the board (although it requires a little more blue, and the heavier blue you get, the less you're running a Zoo deck that you can discuss in this thread ;)

[Rizso]

If you're one of those persons who cringes at a Domain Zoo list, I suggest you skip this post entirely, or explain why Naya Zoo is strictly better, as my search attempt failed:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
2 Vindicate

3 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrublands
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Dark Confidant is just teh nuts. Vindicate just plows through random stupid stuff and Tribal Flames at 4 or 5 can deal with things that Lightning Bolt can't (Rhox War Monk, Tombstalker).

But mostly, you're splashing black for Bob and Vindicate. Granted, you lose some speed compared to the WRG version, but it comes with added consistency and unfair card advantage.

Comments? Will this work? (As this is mostly a draft in my head right now.)



I dont think i would go into domain but think my self of a dark zoo version, I like the idee of using bob, Vindicate and Tidehollow Sculler from Black. Especially if combo decks gets more popular now, storm, reanimator, polymorth etc.

[lordofthepit]

If you're one of those persons who cringes at a Domain Zoo list, I suggest you skip this post entirely, or explain why Naya Zoo is strictly better, as my search attempt failed:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
2 Vindicate

3 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrublands
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Dark Confidant is just teh nuts. Vindicate just plows through random stupid stuff and Tribal Flames at 4 or 5 can deal with things that Lightning Bolt can't (Rhox War Monk, Tombstalker).

But mostly, you're splashing black for Bob and Vindicate. Granted, you lose some speed compared to the WRG version, but it comes with added consistency and unfair card advantage.

Comments? Will this work? (As this is mostly a draft in my head right now.)

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of Dark Zoo or Domain Zoo, but I'm a fan of experimenting with it. Hope you get some good results.

[supachai]

But i run them together, and everyone else suggested Gaddock Teeg, which doesn't do jack-shit when it comes to staring down a Goyf. It's like I'm replacing cards. It's good but i wouldn't run it if you're all Fireblast/Steppe Lynx oriented.

Well, with our own Goyfs, Pridemage for exalted, Lavamancer, and tons of burn and removal, I don't think an opposing Goyf is as scary as when your opponent drops a Natural Order. While it is true Teeg does little in our aggro matchups, our aggro matchups are generally good enough so that we can afford to use some space to protect ourselves from scarier things. My opinion anyway.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I forgot to add to that post something. I added it to my earlier post. Dealing with a Goyf that an opposing BLUE MAGE has cast is a daunting task. And a 2 of that doesn't come down before you get combo-ed off on doesn't seem that good in my opinion. Combo players in my area can play around dumb hate bears.

[supachai]

Teeg isn't really there just for combo but I'm sure you're well aware of all the other things it stops. Point is, I think Teeg fills an overall better role in the deck than Jitte. While this is only true in certain metagames, 2 Teeg main also frees up a couple slots in the side for things like combo hate or something (though I'm generally against combo hate since it's never going to be a positive match up anyway and I'd rather use cards than are useful in multiple matchups).

[Rizso]

I pretty much never have any problems with opposite Tarmogoyfs, however the creature that do cause problems Rhox War Monk.

Have been thinking of teching the zoo a bit, Noble Hierarch, Magus of the Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Stoneforge Packages and/or Mogg Fanatic/Ranger of Eos/ Proclamation of Rebirth+other 1cc's.

Considering playing Mogg Fanatics again. Adds the last damage needed to take down Rhoxes and goyfs, Kills opponets Grim Lavamancers, Dark Confidants, faerie packages, Noble Hierarch etc, and its helpful against the dredge matchups.

Testing dark zoo with Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, Vindicate main and Diabolic Edics in the board.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

(though I'm generally against combo hate since it's never going to be a positive match up anyway and I'd rather use cards than are useful in multiple matchups).

See, now we agree on something:smile:

[supachai]

Against War Monks, I really like Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast. They're also quite good against a lot of other things (like Teeg).


See, now we agree on something:smile:

Haha. Good to know, good to know.

[Jon Stewart]

The player who won our local tourney was playing Zoo but maindecked 2 Dolmen Gate in the deck to great success. He showed me his list after and we talked about it for quite some length.

Whenever he casts it, he got to attack with impunity and focus all of his burn on the opponents head, regardless of how big his opponents blockers may be. The idea made a lot of sense to me.

It seems to me that players often rely on Tarmogoyfs and other big blockers to buy time against Zoo and force two for one trades. Dolmen Gate lets Zoo ignore these blockers, and even stuff like Iona, and continue to attack without hesistation. He told me he plays it instead of 2 of his Path to Exiles, and if opponents end up siding in artifact/enchantment destruction as a result, that always helps him, since those cards are dead against the other 58 cards in his deck.

What do you guys think? Does the idea have merit.

Also he played 4 Reckless Abandon and 2 Fireblast in the deck. He said, they make his deck a full turn faster. He also played Sulfuric Vortex in the side and swore by the card.

And lastly, he was testing 2 Searing Blaze in place of 2 Lightning Helix. What do you guys think of these ideas?

I think all of them seem really solid and make sense to me.

From memory, I think his list was...

12 Fetchland
9 Dual Land

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Reckless Abandon
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Path to Exile
2 Dolmen Gate

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Woolly Thoctar


It looked a lot faster than the typical Zoo list.