[Deck] Zoo

[Rizso]

The player who won our local tourney was playing Zoo but maindecked 2 Dolmen Gate in the deck to great success. He showed me his list after and we talked about it for quite some length.

Whenever he casts it, he got to attack with impunity and focus all of his burn on the opponents head, regardless of how big his opponents blockers may be. The idea made a lot of sense to me.

It seems to me that players often rely on Tarmogoyfs and other big blockers to buy time against Zoo and force two for one trades. Dolmen Gate lets Zoo ignore these blockers, and even stuff like Iona, and continue to attack without hesistation. He told me he plays it instead of 2 of his Path to Exiles, and if opponents end up siding in artifact/enchantment destruction as a result, that always helps him, since those cards are dead against the other 58 cards in his deck.

What do you guys think? Does the idea have merit.

Also he played 4 Reckless Abandon and 2 Fireblast in the deck. He said, they make his deck a full turn faster. He also played Sulfuric Vortex in the side and swore by the card.

And lastly, he was testing 2 Searing Blaze in place of 2 Lightning Helix. What do you guys think of these ideas?

I think all of them seem really solid and make sense to me.

From memory, I think his list was...

12 Fetchland
9 Dual Land

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Reckless Abandon
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Path to Exile
2 Dolmen Gate

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Woolly Thoctar


It looked a lot faster than the typical Zoo list.

The list looks fun, just the Woolly Thoctar I dont like and the fireblast and Gaddock in the same main list.

[Jon Stewart]

You don't like Thoctar? Why? A 3cc 5/4 seems solid.

Fireblast and Gaddock in the same list don't make sense. I guess it's not too big an issue, with only 3 of one and 2 of the other.

I would personally replace either Teeg or Fireblast with more burn spells.

Do you have an opinion on Dolmen Gate? I'm curious if it's just a cute trick or if you think it helps a lot against the current meta, (goblins, bant, merfolk, the gate etc).

Would the deck be better off playing more Paths instead of Dolmen Gate?

[Rizso]

For a 3cc dropp I rather play the Knight of the Reliquary. Thoctar also dies to blue elemental blasts.

[Valtrix]

Yes, the deck would be better off with paths. Gate does not add pressure, because while you can swing with guys and not be afraid of damage, getting rid of one of their blockers is a lot more scary. Particularly in the case of a goyf vs. goyf. Path breaks the stallmate, whereas Gate does not. Really, the only situation where Gate is more useful is when you have a ton of creatures but are just afraid to swing with them because there's a big blocker that would kill one. I think this scenario does not actually happen that much, and in most cases path would probably be fine to remove their best blocker to let you through anyway. In addition, path fits our curve better, but more importantly it keeps us from dying if we don't have a creature on the board, where gate just lets you die.

In short, path is a much better option than Gate, and I would even extend the arguments here to say that many other things are much better than gate.

[Jon Stewart]

I've played Knights before in decks with 10-12 fetchlands. Even then, Knight of Reliquary often comes down as just a 3/3 more often than it comes down a 6/6. I would rather just take a 5/4 consistently that can attack asap and speed up the deck, than play a creature that I have to tap and pump for a turn before it becomes a 5/5.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've played Knights before in decks with 10-12 fetchlands. Even then, Knight of Reliquary often comes down as just a 3/3 more often than it comes down a 6/6. I would rather just take a 5/4 consistently that can attack asap and speed up the deck, than play a creature that I have to tap and pump for a turn before it becomes a 5/5.

+1

[Rizso]

I've played Knights before in decks with 10-12 fetchlands. Even then, Knight of Reliquary often comes down as just a 3/3 more often than it comes down a 6/6. I would rather just take a 5/4 consistently that can attack asap and speed up the deck, than play a creature that I have to tap and pump for a turn before it becomes a 5/5.


Strange mine are never that small. But my goyfs however they most of the time are just 3/4 or lower.

[Brizentine Empire]

I've played Knights before in decks with 10-12 fetchlands. Even then, Knight of Reliquary often comes down as just a 3/3 more often than it comes down a 6/6. I would rather just take a 5/4 consistently that can attack asap and speed up the deck, than play a creature that I have to tap and pump for a turn before it becomes a 5/5.

I've had great success with Knight, and for a number of reasons. Yes, sometimes he enters play smaller than you'd like him to be, but that's unusual in my list (I play 10 fetches, 3 horizon canopy, and 2 fireblast, which all have great synergy with Knight). Often times he's big enough to kill Goyf and live (unlike Thoctar, usually) and I've even won games because he can help fix mana issues.

[malden]

I've had great success with Knight, and for a number of reasons. Yes, sometimes he enters play smaller than you'd like him to be, but that's unusual in my list (I play 10 fetches, 3 horizon canopy, and 2 fireblast, which all have great synergy with Knight). Often times he's big enough to kill Goyf and live (unlike Thoctar, usually) and I've even won games because he can help fix mana issues.

Same here. At the Indy 5k tournament I outraced ProBant twice because I got both knights in play and they were bigger than Progenitus!

[spree4567]

This is a recent decklist that has done well in tournaments on MTGO going 4-0 or 3-1 a couple times. It's not mine personally, but I plan on making it and testing it out.

Lands - 19
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures - 23
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells - 18
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress

Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Price of Progress
4 Pyroblast
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Tormod's Crypt

He uses Goblin Guide to increase the speed of the deck and also removes all basic lands. I'm not that big of a fan of doing this as Dragon Stompy or something else with Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon would be trouble for the deck but it's done well for him. I also like the mainboard Price of Progress since almost every top Legacy deck other than Goblins runs quite a few of them.

[Angelfire]

This is a recent decklist that has done well in tournaments on MTGO going 4-0 or 3-1 a couple times. It's not mine personally, but I plan on making it and testing it out.

Lands - 19
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures - 23
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells - 18
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress

Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Price of Progress
4 Pyroblast
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Tormod's Crypt

He uses Goblin Guide to increase the speed of the deck and also removes all basic lands. I'm not that big of a fan of doing this as Dragon Stompy or something else with Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon would be trouble for the deck but it's done well for him. I also like the mainboard Price of Progress since almost every top Legacy deck other than Goblins runs quite a few of them.

I gotta say I take issue with 100% nonbasic land AND Price of Progress. I don't even like Steppe Lynx, but if you are gonna run 11 fetches in an aggressive list, why not include it?

[malden]

Lands - 19
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures - 23
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells - 18
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress

Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Price of Progress
4 Pyroblast
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Tormod's Crypt


Just change the mana base to be the following:
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

[IrishLegend]

I was about to begin testing this list for GP Columbus. My thoughts are to plan against combo and graveyard a little better mainboard. With Teeg mainboard I can side in like 2 Ethersworn Canonist games 2/3 to better the match. Plus whatever other hate I have.
Just wondering what you guys think of the list as well your thoughts about GP Columbus. I think this is the next Legacy GP.

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library

Just mainboard do to the fact sideboard changes.

[Nelis]

Play 4 Lavamancers! The rest looks solid.

[spankme]

Is there any reason not to play Loam Lion over Kird Ape? It makes opponents BeB's and Hydroblasts weaker. And if there is no reason, has anyone thought about updated manabase taking Lions into account? Also, has anyone tried some number (two, perhaps?) of Jotun Grunts? They seem pretty solid and not that anti sinergic with Lavamancers and Goyfs.

[malden]

I was about to begin testing this list for GP Columbus. My thoughts are to plan against combo and graveyard a little better mainboard. With Teeg mainboard I can side in like 2 Ethersworn Canonist games 2/3 to better the match. Plus whatever other hate I have.
Just wondering what you guys think of the list as well your thoughts about GP Columbus. I think this is the next Legacy GP.

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library

Just mainboard do to the fact sideboard changes.

Only thing I would change is Nelis said. Take out a Kird Ape for a 4th Lavamancer. Lavamancer is good during most of the game while kird ape sucks late game, for most people he has a big red target on his head and they try to kill him quick.

Only other thing I can think of would be to potentially change the Kird Apes to Steppe Lynx.

[IrishLegend]

I havent really tested step lynx. The only thing that worries me about him is hes a dead draw other then your opening hand. I could be wrong. I will test him this weekend. How he testing for you guys?

I dont play Lavamancer as a 4 of do to the fact I dont want him in my opening hand. Ive tested with 3 and I really like the results.

As for loam lion I really dont know what to say. But I think we have had this conversion before. Something about the mana base blah blah blah.... lol

[Draener]

I might swap a helix for a chain as well, as it seems the mana cost would be relevant more often than the instant speed. As for additional sideboard hate for combo, I would run 2 Cannonists and a thorn of amethyst if you can find 3 slots.

[five]

I want to try the Lame Lion over Kird Ape. There is so much red hate that he simply gets around. I have also tried Step Lynx and wasn't impressed. He was strong out of the gates, but soon was a 0/1 just sitting there taunting me. I was really wishing he was an ape (or Lion). It seems like the mana base is pretty supportive of the Loam Lion already. Things have been getting more g/w lately with KoR and such.

[IrishLegend]

I thought about swapping a helix for a chain but the damage off the fetchs hurt, so helix really helps out there. As for loam lion Ill test him but I dont like the fact of fetching for a savannah first turn when most of are removal is red.

[overpowered]

I havent really tested step lynx. The only thing that worries me about him is hes a dead draw other then your opening hand. I could be wrong. I will test him this weekend. How he testing for you guys?

I dont play Lavamancer as a 4 of do to the fact I dont want him in my opening hand. Ive tested with 3 and I really like the results.

As for loam lion I really dont know what to say. But I think we have had this conversion before. Something about the mana base blah blah blah.... lol

The Steppe Lynx with Knight of the Reliquary is decent. I've seen some very good plays using those two cards. The Knight gives him some power in the mid/late game, but other than that, he's draw dependant. Considering his inconsistency without fetches on the board, I'd be leery of running him as a 4 of. He speeds up the game, but still does not produce solid midgame reach. He can be really good with fireblasts in the deck though, since blast also caters to the same early-game strategy. He's also great alongside Quasali Pridemages with a KotR untapped... ;)

For his downside: He doesn't get huge like KotR and Goyf. I'd be more apt to run Loam Lion since it has Lynx's ability at "landfall 1" permanently. It makes it a more solid overall card, rather than an explosive card without a late game.

@IrishLegend: If you're running a fetch intensive deck, test/play the Lynx over the Lion.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't see why we would want to run Steppe Lynx when zoos strength is in its consistency. Lynx might win you some games but will also lose you other games and is too dependent on lands when this deck isn’t designed to take advantage of landfall effects. Loam Lion is simply Kird Ape 5-8 with some relatively minor differences but remains a 2/3 regardless of the game state.

[jandax]

A Wasteland would beg to differ, but I agree with what you're saying. I see the value in running Apes and lions over the lynx, consistency is optimization, right?

[Rizso]

Lightning Helix, Steppe lynx, knight of the reliquary and Sylvan library has won me alot of games. Way more then other cards in the deck. I would play Figure of Destiny or Mogg Fanatics before i would touch the ape and the lion.

[IrishLegend]

Really Mogg Fanatic lol. Has anyone tried/ tested the wasteland build of zoo?

[chokin]

I don't see why we would want to run Steppe Lynx when zoos strength is in its consistency. Lynx might win you some games but will also lose you other games and is too dependent on lands when this deck isn’t designed to take advantage of landfall effects. Loam Lion is simply Kird Ape 5-8 with some relatively minor differences but remains a 2/3 regardless of the game state.

I used to be against Lynx, but I've also seen a turn one Lynx, turn two fetch, Pridemage, swing for 5. Lynx is surprisingly bursty. Usually, it's an Ape, but sometimes, it's a Goyf.

[jandax]

I advanced searched for it and couldn't find anything, so I'll ask here:

Anyone play with Burning-Tree Shaman in the 3cc slot over KotR/Throctar? I am curious if anyone has, and would share their experience.

After reading a cedric phillips article on SCG a few weeks ago where he had zoo with BTS in there, he argued a really good point for the card. Think of all the activated abilities in Legacy, and how this 3/4 for 3 turns those into damage sources. Plus, at 3/4, he can dance with a Rhox War Monk. Since it is a statebased effect, one doesn't miss triggers. I haven't played a match with it yet, but in some random games it has been easy to cast and had quite an effect on the board. It turns horrible matchup(s) into winnable ones (lands, mostly). Yet its only real drawback is that it turns your own fetchlands into shocklands, makes Lavamancer ping you, as well as Pridemage, should he be sac'd.

Thoughts?

[Valtrix]

I can't see shaman being better than Knight or thoctar at all. By the time you have the mana to play him, the activated ability damage hardly matters, and to gain any ground on thoctar or knight you'd need to be getting at least 1-2 damage per turn from him, and that just won't happen. Plus, a 3/4 does not face a goyf that well, whereas thoctar and knight can always do so.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I advanced searched for it and couldn't find anything, so I'll ask here:

Anyone play with Burning-Tree Shaman in the 3cc slot over KotR/Throctar? I am curious if anyone has, and would share their experience.

After reading a cedric phillips article on SCG a few weeks ago where he had zoo with BTS in there, he argued a really good point for the card. Think of all the activated abilities in Legacy, and how this 3/4 for 3 turns those into damage sources. Plus, at 3/4, he can dance with a Rhox War Monk. Since it is a statebased effect, one doesn't miss triggers. I haven't played a match with it yet, but in some random games it has been easy to cast and had quite an effect on the board. It turns horrible matchup(s) into winnable ones (lands, mostly). Yet its only real drawback is that it turns your own fetchlands into shocklands, makes Lavamancer ping you, as well as Pridemage, should he be sac'd.

Thoughts?

I love this guy ever since he got printed. I ran him like once or twice when Counterbalance was THE deck, and activating Top was almost discouraged when i got em low enough. I think he is good, but not good enough. Most people wanna pay 3 mana for like a monster. I guess that's how it is anyway.

I was thinking of running Order of the White Clay or something cute like that. He wouldn't seem half bad if the format wasn't combo oriented atm.

[DCTopTeam]

Okay so I was not able to repeat as the Champion in the 2nd installment of the tournament that some local team runs in our country. Went 4-2, good for 17th out of 66. Here's the report and the decklist:

Well its basically the same as what is posted here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12624-[DTB]-Zoo/page119 post # 2380 except that -3 FoD and -1 Chain Lightning + 4 Goblin Guide. SB is the same except fot -2 Choke +2 Compost.

RD 1. Monowhite-Painterstone-Scepter-Chant! WOW

G1: T1 Grindstone for him, T2 Painters (saw my hand w/o removal), T3 he does his thing! LOSE

G2: I play and swing GG. He Scepter-Chants in his 2nd turn, good he did not find an early Painter-Stone. I managed to draw a Grip and cast it on his Scepter. I aggro him and win. WIN

G3: He plays, I mulligan to 5 for a removal or artifact hate but drew none. He does his thing at his 3rd turn. LOSE


Observations: I was bamboozled after the first game TBH. Took me by surprise honestly. For three games, he consistently dropped T1 Grindstone. Talk about luck.

Match: 1-2; After Rd 1: 0-1

RD. 2 Dredge

G1: I drew a Teeg in my first 7 but got no land. He explodes T3. LOSE

G2: No hate after mulligan to 4. He goes aggro with a $h!tload of tokens. LOSE

Observations: The top player of our country. Can be said as the best Dredge player of our country, also.

Match: 0-2; After Rd 2: 0-2

RD. 3 UB I-DO-NOT-HONESTLY-KNOW-DECK

(Just) observations: He plays his Standard lands that gains him 1 life every time he plays it. He has Hedron Crab. He has Maralen. Ugh, I do not really know the deck. I did not underestimate though, I was thinking he was some combo whatever so I was really cautious. Both wins I beat him down with creatures.

Match: 2-0; After Rd 3: 1-2

RD. 4 AnT

G1: He explodes T2 enough said. LOSE

G2: I landed a Teeg which he cannot answer. WIN

G3: He kills himself.

Match: 2-1; After Rd 4: 2-2

Rd. 5 UG Merfolk

G1: I spot-remove everything and beat him down with Loam Lion, Ape and GG. WIN

G2: He curves and even managed to Standstill twice. LOSE

G3: More of the same in G1. WIN

Match: 2-1; After Rd. 5: 3-2

Rd. 6 (Last Round of Swiss) Dragon Stompy

G1: T1 Trinisphere for him followed by a T2 Chalice for 1. He beats me down with R Pit Dragon. LOSE

G2: T1 Trinisphere again followed by a T3 RPD. I Managed to destroy the Trinisphere EoT then bolt his RPD. He does not do anything significant afterwards and I beat him down.

G3: No T1 for him. I GG on my turn and attack for 2. He casts Chalice for 1 but my GG is already in play. GG manages to deal 8 damage before he casts RPD. I Grip his Chalice and kill the Dragon. He got mana-screwed and I beat him down.

We play for sweep so I ended up 4-2 after losing the first 2 of Swiss. :laugh:

OVERALL OBSERVATIONS

Sorry for the not so comprehensive report. As you all can see, I was paired with combo decks early on thus my poor record. What I will discuss comprehensively is my experience with Goblin Guide. He was better than FoD I must say. His supposed "drawback" when an opponent reveals a land is not that much of a drawback for me. What is more important is that if your opponent does not reveal a land, USEFUL INFORMATION is instantly provided by GG.

An example: I attack w/ GG and opponent reveals an StP, I had a KoTR and a Goyf in my hand. Normally you would cast the bigger creature which in this situation is KoTR (4/4 + I had 1 fetch in hand) but seeing his StP revealed by GG, I instead baited for a 3/4 Goyf which he StPs thus my bigger KoTR was home free. There were other numerous times which I cannot recall that my decision during that day was greatly influenced by what GG revealed. So I am strongly sticking for this build at the moment.

To end, I was quite happy seeing my brother place 4th (his first Top 8) with his RB Goblins. I would like to share that his list was a bit sick because his RB Gobs had MD L Bolt and had 3 Perish on the side. Honestly, when we were playtesting the win ratio for me was like 1 win every 3 games and stayed the same during the SB. Another thing, a friend of mine using Zoo managed to get into the Top 8 losing to Threshold during that same day. Plus, deckcheck.net Top 8's are showing the resurgence of Zoo. What you guys think?

[Valtrix]

I haven't gotten a chance to test zoo against reanimator. I'm finding that zoo seems to be slightly favorable for us, but I'm curious if anybody has any more insight analysis than that.

[IrishLegend]

Reanimator is about an even match up to be honest. Their plan of attack is going to be to put Iona, Shield of Emeria on most likely white or Sphinx of the Steel Wind into play. Iona can be raced/burned and sphinx can be pathed. All you can really do is race them and hope for a good hand. I personally play Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard it helps to keep them off their careful study and mystical tutors. Plus whatever other grave hate I run. I haven't tested to much against this match-up so I as well am curious to what people testing results are.

[malden]

Sphix of the Steel Wind is their Game Plan A against zoo. Other than a potentially large Knight of the Reliquary, we cannot kill it in combat with the selection of creatures, unless you swing with a Steppe Lynx with Landfall triggered 3 times to make it a 6/7. I played agains this deck a couple of times at the SCG 5k Indy event and its a PAIN! Usually the reanimator pilot will have counter backup for your answers to the Sphinx. PtE, StP, or maybe Oust are the best answers to a Sphinx.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

They usually only go for Sphinx if they have FOW backup. That's what I've learned anyway. Usually Iona on white is there main play, then to get Archron or Sphinx after Iona, then we just pretty much can't win.

[Brizentine Empire]

I haven't gotten a chance to test zoo against reanimator. I'm finding that zoo seems to be slightly favorable for us, but I'm curious if anybody has any more insight analysis than that.

As the others have posted, it's pretty much a race. An ideal hand would be a one drop creature (Nacatl, hopefully), a pridemage or goyf t2, and a burn spell or two to accompany a path. The goal is to get in as much early damage as possible so that they have to make a tough decision with Iona (white or red) or be forced to play Sphinx w/o the FoW backup. If you are able to do this, then you'll most likely take the game. Of course, if they get Iona out before you're able to get a good 7-10 damage in, they'll just name white and kill you, and if they have the FoW they'll go for the Sphinx. I also like the REB in the board, as it does help against the Mystical Tutor/Careful Study/FoW. In the 5 matches I have played this MU in my local meta (a very touch meta, at that) I have gone 4-1 with Zoo against Reanimator.

[Valtrix]

So, as I prepare to go to the GP Columbus trial, I'm considering the following list:

// Lands (20)
1 [CST] Mountain (1)
2 [R] Plateau
3 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Forest (3)
1 [US] Plains (4)
1 [R] Savannah
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures (23)
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [BD] Kird Ape
1 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells (17)
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
3 [MPR] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

Where the 1-2-3 casting costs are 21-17-2 in order.

With this list I am concerned about a few things. The first is if the stoneforge mystic package (or stoneforge at all) is worth running. If so, is collar worth running as the 3rd equipment? I've been thinking that lavamancers + collar could be a good foil to many of the big creature strategies going around as of late, though I honestly have no testing on this. Also, is this going to be too mana hungry and would I want the 2nd horizon canopy? If not, what to run instead. I would probably take out 1-2 mystics and the collar for the 3rd kird ape, 4th helix, and maybe a 2nd canopy.

From this list, I also really like the 1 swords and figure. Figure takes the place of a kird ape, since I get sick of running 3-4 of him, but figure can be both an early and late threat. The 1 swords has also been extremely beneficial to have more answers to goyf than people run goyf. I'd considering running more, but I think 5 sword effects is good.

Next, what to run as a sideboard. I'm not really sure what to expect, besides the fact that it's a GP trial, so it seems like a fairly open meta. I really like the 6 graveyard hate for reanimator, and graveyard decks in general. Price is for lands, because I expect that will make a showing there. Grip is ubiquitous. So I guess the blasts I'm least sold on.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Valtrix: I would honestly just go -2 Kird Ape, +1 FoD, +1 Land. The list after that seems solid as hell.

[Valtrix]

So you would agree that running mystics and collar would be stronger than opting not to run them?

In addition, what are your thoughts on helix over chain lightning? I'm feeling like in a list like that that's starting to beg for more mana that chain might be more effective, where I feel as though helix bogs me down sometimes.

You also agree with the sideboard? Including the red elemental blasts? I haven't actually played with them before, so I can't judge their effectiveness, but so much is running blue. I considered them as extra answers to reanimator, as a way to hamper combo to sneak in enough damage, and as an answer to some of these bant decks that have been starting to see play more recently.

[lordofthepit]

Next, what to run as a sideboard. I'm not really sure what to expect, besides the fact that it's a GP trial, so it seems like a fairly open meta. I really like the 6 graveyard hate for reanimator, and graveyard decks in general. Price is for lands, because I expect that will make a showing there. Grip is ubiquitous. So I guess the blasts I'm least sold on.

Are you just planning to punt the ANT matchup or hope that they kill themselves with Tendrils? The maindeck seems slower than the more aggressive, less consistent versions of Zoo, and you have pretty much nothing in the sideboard to address storm either.

[Valtrix]

I haven't actually had to play against combo with zoo much, oddly enough. I would always run some kind of hate in the board for it though. However, I wonder how well do you think we could push the matchup up, even if we dedicate the sideboard slots? Do you think that we can push the win % up enough to justify even devoting any slots to combo?

And yes, the maindeck is slower than I usually tend to run, I think. One of my questions is if this mana-intensive slowness is going to be more of a detriment or not, because I honestly don't know. It's not as if it's "that" much slower, I think, but it is somewhat. My hope is that the cost of some speed will give more strength on the whole.

[lordofthepit]

I haven't actually had to play against combo with zoo much, oddly enough. I would always run some kind of hate in the board for it though. However, I wonder how well do you think we could push the matchup up, even if we dedicate the sideboard slots? Do you think that we can push the win % up enough to justify even devoting any slots to combo?

And yes, the maindeck is slower than I usually tend to run, I think. One of my questions is if this mana-intensive slowness is going to be more of a detriment or not, because I honestly don't know. It's not as if it's "that" much slower, I think, but it is somewhat. My hope is that the cost of some speed will give more strength on the whole.

I was tinkering around today and was considering a speed-oriented build with 12 Fetchlands, 4 Steppe Lynxes, and 2 Gaddock Teegs main, plus 10-11 burn spells (with no Apes, Figures, Mystics, Knights, Libraries, or Equipment). I was then considering bringing in a few 0-drop hate cards (Chalice of the Voids and Mindbreak Trap) and one or two copies of various 2-drop hate cards (Null Rod, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thorn of Amethyst), making for about 7-8 sideboard cards total. A good ANT player could certainly play around those pieces of hate with bounce, creature kill, or being smart about Mindbreak Trap, but that strategy may buy two turns, and it seems the deck can consistently deal enough damage in that time to prevent Ad Nauseam, while still maintaining enough board presence to dispatch them if they tried a mini-Tendrils. My sideboard strategy would be to board out your 7-8 copies of Path to Exile and Grim Lavamancer, because the former are dead cards and the latter are too slow, so that sounds like a good number of hate cards from the sdieboard to bring in.

Incidentally, I was also thinking of playing a few REB/Pyroblast effects main because I have yet to face a deck at my LGS that doesn't run blue. That meant I could commit my sideboard to being lighter on blue-hate, while sideboarding extensively for storm combo and graveyard decks. I would count on our superior removal to carry the day against aggro strategies, although at the end of the day, I'm not sure that sacrifice is worth it.

I think if I were to play Zoo next time, it would be a midrange build similar to what you have, but I'd consider just punting the combo matchup. It seems like it would fare well against tribal, blue decks, black aggro, and even Reanimator (fast enough to race, has graveyard hate, and the combination of burn, white removal, and Basilisk Collar on either Grim Lavamancer or a fatty provides enough outs alone).

[Valtrix]

Actually, the combo matchup is in large part why I've been considering the benefits of chain lightning vs. lightning helix. I understand helix's ability to gain life, but ultimately I've never found it largely relevant, considering it's best use is against other aggro which we do well against already. The drawback can sometimes be bad, but I think it's easy enough to play around. The benefits of chain, however, is that it can speed up our clock against combo since we don't need to have two mana for it. But I think it can speed us up in general as well. (I guess minorly too if you get any 3 chain/bolt/lavamancer you can take down an Iona, but that benefit is likely marginal.) At least when I've played with it I've prefered the lower cost over its drawbacks compared to helix.

[raptorcardz]

Congratulations to Matt Elias on winning the SCG 5k Legacy Open with zoo. This was his build:

Maindeck:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path To Exile
3 Price Of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price Of Progress
2 Pyroblast

It seems to be a very interesting build with the steppe lynx x3. The only change I would make is that I wouild probably play 2x Sylvan Library and something else main instead of the Price of Progress because the libraries allow to find exactly what you need and PoP is sometimes a dead draw.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Congratulations to Matt Elias on winning the SCG 5k Legacy Open with "SLIGH".

There we go, fixed.

@Valtrix: I like REB because it deals with pesky blue mages, which these blue matchups are getting worse and worse in my opinion. RWM is a beating and so is Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Plus a REB on a Trinket Mage is usually game over for Counterbalance players.

I've always found Helix to be clunky but necessary. I think it's needed in this format. And the Stoneforge package is good, but it's just player choice in my opinion. You're not damned if you do or don't run it.

[mishima_kazuya]

Congratulations to Matt Elias on winning the SCG 5k Legacy Open with zoo. This was his build:

Maindeck:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path To Exile
3 Price Of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price Of Progress
2 Pyroblast

It seems to be a very interesting build with the steppe lynx x3. The only change I would make is that I wouild probably play 2x Sylvan Library and something else main instead of the Price of Progress because the libraries allow to find exactly what you need and PoP is sometimes a dead draw.

Knight of the Reliquary is all this list needs for the mid game. You don't want to be messing even further into the late game where most decks beat Zoo. Hence the lack of Sylvan Library.

As for the dead draw part...well welcome to not playing Force of Will. Path is dead against combo, PoP is dead against basic heavy mana bases.

TL;DR it is what it is.

[lordofthepit]

It seems to be a very interesting build with the steppe lynx x3. The only change I would make is that I wouild probably play 2x Sylvan Library and something else main instead of the Price of Progress because the libraries allow to find exactly what you need and PoP is sometimes a dead draw.

Not a fan of Sylvan Library anymore. It might have been good earlier in the year when the format was a lot slower and dominated by Counterbalance, but now games won't last long enough for the slowly improving card quality (used in combination with fetchlands) to be worth the investment. Moreover, the Library is a -1 card advantage investment up front, and it will take 4 life to recoup for that a turn late and at a cost of 1G, which is a hit to your tempo. So really, you need to serve up 8 life for there to be any benefit at all.

It will still break open the occasional attrition war, but I think I'd rather just pack burn and slam to the dome, or if I'm leaning towards a slower build, Stoneforge Mystic can get me specific card advantage (and the equipment cards are capable of blowing the game open).

Edit: I had thought that KotR didn't belong in a fast deck like this, but I absolutely love the synergy. In this deck, KotR's activation ability effectively says: "Tap, sacrifice a forest or plains, pay 1 life: Creatures you control named Steppe Lynxes get +4/+4 until end of turn. Add R, W, or G to your mana pool. Creatures named Knights of the Reliquary you control get +2/+2. Next time you would activate an ability from a creatures named Grim Lavamancer, you may do so without removing two cards from your graveyard. Occasionally, all creatures named Tarmogoyf get +1/+1. Thin your library out of unwanted lands and shuffle your library afterwards." Of course, it also does stupid tricks like mess up Wasteland effects, colorfix your Wild Nacatls (but not your Apes/Lions), cycle your extra lands for more fuel, finds lands for Fireblast, and reduces the heat you take from your Price of Progresses, as well as being an obviously huge beatstick when it boils down to it.

Edit #2: I don't really like the Loam Lions because a 2/3 doesn't really seem to do much for me early, it isn't a great topdeck, and it frequently messes up your Exalted triggers. Unfortunately, I can't really seem to find too many creatures that I like, so I dug deeper and came up with two possibilities that might get me laughed out of this thread, but feel compelled to bring up anyway (mostly to have someone talk me out of it if I'm truly insane): Mother of Runes or Weathered Wayfarer, of which I'm leaning towards the former.

The former obviously protects your fatties or utility creatures from removal or helps make them unblockable, and in a pinch, can absorb damage from an attacking Rhox War Monk (preventing lifelink) while you search for topdecked burn to close out the game. The latter has great synergy with your fetchlands, Horizon Canopy, and Fireblast; minimizes mana screw in matchups where that's your opponent's only real chance at beating you; and keeps your Lynxes, Lavamancers, Goyfs, and KotRs live if the match progresses to the midgame where your opponent is trying to stabilize; answers recurring Wastelock; and draws Horizon Canopy late in the game.

Granted, these aren't the most aggressive creatures which makes me question their inclusion in a Zoo deck (a fast one at that), but a 2/3 Loam Lion doesn't do much for me either.

[Octopusman]

Total noob question.

Why Chain Lightning instead of Lightning Bolt? Does anyone really copy it again if their opponent copies it?


@octopusman - He has Lightning Bolt.

:-| omg I'm sorry. Didn't look closely enough. >_<

[chokin]

@octopusman - He has Lightning Bolt.

Yeah, Sylvan Library might be able to be dropped for something different. Probably Jitte or extra burn? Jitte is pretty good imo, as it kinda wins games. I'd think Fireblast if you don't have it could be good with KotR. Maybe a Grunt? I ran two on the day I couldnt find my Libraries and it was randomly really awesome vs the Lands deck I got paired up against haha. I basically lucksacked and recycled them to eachother with the help of some fetches.

[five]

@octopusman - He has Lightning Bolt.

Yeah, Sylvan Library might be able to be dropped for something different. Probably Jitte or extra burn? Jitte is pretty good imo, as it kinda wins games. I'd think Fireblast if you don't have it could be good with KotR. Maybe a Grunt? I ran two on the day I couldnt find my Libraries and it was randomly really awesome vs the Lands deck I got paired up against haha. I basically lucksacked and recycled them to eachother with the help of some fetches.

It's been like 6 months since I played Zoo, but I remember hating Jitte (main board). It just seemed way too slow. My mana was always tied up playing dudes and bolts etc. I never tried Sylvans but Fireblast was sweet, and I didn't even have KotR. It was my best finisher because I didn't have PoP either. I wouldn't run Grunt because it is really bad with Goyf. I don't think Zoo needs MB graveyard hate. It already has a fighting chance against Lands, Reanimator, and Dredge.

[Nekrataal]

I am very happy winner of a 22 player tournament. Went 5-0 with Zoo, 2nd best place was 3-2.
Below the build I played anticpiated a lot of U-wizards and Tempo decks alongside Dredge (which is most played deck in Germany besides Bant in all forms). I had one Burning Tree Shaman for test purposes maindeck but actually he got countered or destroyed as soon as he showed up and before he even could get active. So maybe this means he is good ;)

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Mountain (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Savannah
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [BRB] Plains (2)

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
1 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [EX] Price of Progress
2 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [GTW] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [R] Red Elemental Blast

Brief tournament report.

Game 1: Aggro Loam
Match 1: I roll over him before he can stabilize. Quite close.
Match 2: I make a mistake and board out Teegs for Shusher. He has everything he needs: Loam, Wasteland, DD, CotV to lock me out of the game
Match 3: I board properly and land Teeg T2. He is lacking RR for DD, so he is at 7 life quickly after I can remove 2 Goyf with block/burn. Then a huge Terravore hits the board. Lucky me I rip the only Relic I boarded from the top. Terravore dies and on my next turn I win.

Game 2: Combo Elves
Match 1: He takes Mulligan on 6. Every creatures he play dies in flames or exile and Ape + Nacatl attack for the win.
Match 2: He mulligans to 5 while I keep a risky hand with just one Taiga and 3 spells needing W. Well, I have a much too slow start since I am color screwed and the game drags one and one until he draws his 2nd Mirror Entity with enough mana on the table and support from 2 Absolute Laws Enchantments
Match 3: Works like it should. Burn his guys, win with my own creatures.

Game 3: Bant Control
Match 1: I keep a rather land flooded hand because I think he is playing New Horizon. It turns out he plays CBT T3. I draw 4 more lands in a row and finally get beats from 2 Goyfs.
Match 2: I board my complete U Hate. I start the game with Choke, Magus of the Moon, Teeg in my starting hand. All three guys come into play uncountered. I loose Magus later, because he already had a W basic but it was just to much hate so i could sneak through 1-3 damage each turn.
Match 3: I am stalled by a Rhino for 7 or 8 turns. So we exchange blows until I get a Lavamancer online (drawed no Burn, Path was manaleaked, he played no Daze :(, ) to remove his Rhino when he blocks. He finds quite a few StoPs and boarded Paths but no other creatures until he is at 6 LP and plays a Goyf. Well,a Lavamancer wins the game in the next 3 turns. Very interesting game with many swings in the one or the other direction.

Game 4: Elves Survival
Match 1: He mulligans to 5. I play T1, Nacatly, T2 Nacatl burn two or three blockers and win
Match 2: Basically the same except he only mulligans to 6.

Game 5: Goblins
Well, i feel lucky. I am paired against Tribal again
Match 1: He lands Lackey which I burn. He lands Piledriver which I burn and play a creature myself. I fill the board with more creatures while he tries to defend with Weridings and find a solution with Matron. In vain! Fireblast ends the game soon after.
Match 2: The game is over soon. It is almost a replay of match 1. It felt like slicing through fresh cake.

For I rarely play Zoo I was amazed by its consistency a raw brutal power. Further props to having enough time after most matches to scout around and watch other players / have a drink / have a snack.

[jandax]

^^
I've been testing around with three Shamans and do quite like them. In a couple of weeks there's some back to back Legacy events that I plan on entering to find out if he is the real deal or not. I'll keep notes for reports, but I do have a question or two:

Did you ever feel Loam Lions would have been better for Apes due to BEB/Hydroblast?

Did you ever find your PoP to be dead cards?

[Nessaja]

There we go, fixed.
He runs Knight of the Reliquary, seems more like a Zoo list with a slightly heavier burn focus. Certainly wouldn't call it sligh.

[raptorcardz]

Ran Matt Elias's build yesterday at a GPT. I played against Belcher, Enchantress and Stax the first three rounds. Bad beats...

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

He runs Knight of the Reliquary, seems more like a Zoo list with a slightly heavier burn focus. Certainly wouldn't call it sligh.

I would run 7/7s for 3 in any deck, but that's just me. And my opinion is also that it is Sligh. Steppe Lynx+Fireblast aren't Zoo cards in my opinion. I would rather not argue about it, because noone can change my view on this, so noone waste their finger muscles typing up a response.

Edit: Also, PoP maindeck. Lolz.

[menace13]

This is the Zoo(Dunkle's design) list that is winning online, has the most placings for Zoo and has been piloted by a few people in a meta that is mainly Landstills,DnT,Gobs and Countertop(Gobs and DnT have been on a decline past week or 2)

4Arid Mesa (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Arid Mesa)
4Plateau (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Plateau)
4Taiga (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Taiga)
4Windswept Heath (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Windswept Heath)
3Wooded Foothills (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Wooded Foothills)
19 Lands
4Goblin Guide (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Goblin Guide)
3Grim Lavamancer (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Grim Lavamancer)
4Kird Ape (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kird Ape)
4Qasali Pridemage (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Qasali Pridemage)
4Tarmogoyf (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf)
4Wild Nacatl (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Wild Nacatl)
23 Creatures
4Chain Lightning (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Chain Lightning)
3Fireblast (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fireblast)
4Lightning Bolt (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Lightning Bolt)
4Path to Exile (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Path to Exile)
3Price of Progress (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Price of Progress)
18 Spells
----------------------

Call it what you will, laugh at the PoPs main deck, but it wins and often and at a better % than Big Zoo,Non Sligh Zoo, Just Zoo etc. PoP is fukin crazy online, Landstill pilots fear it-go ahead play 2 Mishras and some duals-.

Edit: @Loxodon- What does REB/Pyro do vs Sphinx?

[Valtrix]

Did anybody see the SCG 5k coverage? Several zoo decks in the top 16, and zoo made it to the finals.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33306

Also very similar to the other SCG winner:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33233

So many lists are running lynxes, fireblast, Teeg, and price in their main, with low(or no) numbers of jitte and/or sylvan library. That seems to be against what a lot of the people here are suggesting, so I was curious if anybody had thoughts on this matter. Is a more aggressive route the way to go now? I've been out of the legacy scene for quite awhile, so I couldn't say for certain what should be played right now.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Call it what you will, laugh at the PoPs main deck, but it wins and often and at a better % than Big Zoo,Non Sligh Zoo, Just Zoo etc. PoP is fukin crazy online, Landstill pilots fear it-go ahead play 2 Mishras and some duals-.

Edit: @Loxodon- What does REB/Pyro do vs Sphinx?

I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:

[menace13]

I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:


lol, wasnt picking an argument and i would agree on the Sligh monicker as well. The format is certainly speeding up, feel the same way too, but i dont feel Zoo is in any danger of losing its place in paper at all. Where online it had to change to be faster than the mirror,Landstill and DnT(Sligh versions are harder to deal with for Taxes). Eventually the meta will shift again to Zoo's favor and hopefully more players join so we can fire Premier events with like 50+.

[jandax]

I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:

How is FB inconsistent? Just curious, not picking an arguement along with everyone else lol

[Nekrataal]

^^
I've been testing around with three Shamans and do quite like them. In a couple of weeks there's some back to back Legacy events that I plan on entering to find out if he is the real deal or not. I'll keep notes for reports, but I do have a question or two:

Did you ever feel Loam Lions would have been better for Apes due to BEB/Hydroblast?

Did you ever find your PoP to be dead cards?

I chose Apes over Lions to not rely even more on W ( I feared Tempo too much in my meta). Especially with Fireblast main it is better to focus on red. BEB/Hydroblast didn't hit me once. PoP unfortunately didn't show up in the only two matchups it mattered (bant, loam). I cannot remember it showed up against the tribal matchups as well, so at least this was OK. I like it main because either it is clearly amazing and otherwise it is clearly the first card to be easily boarded. I expected a lot of Bant and decks playing duals so the choice was not to play it in the Sb but maindeck. However I was very pleased with Gaddock the whole tournament. It was great against Loam and Bant and otherwise can go into the red zone G1.

[jandax]

I chose Apes over Lions to not rely even more on W ( I feared Tempo too much in my meta). Especially with Fireblast main it is better to focus on red. BEB/Hydroblast didn't hit me once. PoP unfortunately didn't show up in the only two matchups it mattered (bant, loam). I cannot remember it showed up against the tribal matchups as well, so at least this was OK. I like it main because either it is clearly amazing and otherwise it is clearly the first card to be easily boarded. I expected a lot of Bant and decks playing duals so the choice was not to play it in the Sb but maindeck. However I was very pleased with Gaddock the whole tournament. It was great against Loam and Bant and otherwise can go into the red zone G1.


Agreed with all of that, I just wanted to confirm suspicions.

[mishima_kazuya]

I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:

Mid-range esque Zoo decks were pretty sweet back during the winter, like Tom Ross's winning list from some 5k.

But lets be real here, a mid-range deck with no Thoughtseizes or Force of Wills is not getting there against NO Countertop or Reanimator.

[Nelis]

I dont understand all this talk about Zoo being a midrange deck. Zoo has never been a midrange deck, it has always been an early game deck which happens to have a strong midgame too. The new builds with Lynxes and stuff might be even faster but that doesn't mean that the 'classic' Zoo has suddenly become a midrange deck.

[Valtrix]

I agree with the above. I don't consider zoo a midrange deck either. However, I do believe that the early game shouldn't be focused on to the point where the midrange power is lost. Though, because of the types of cards we get, I think that it's pretty hard to lose that now.

[Svenyboy]

Lol, of course Zoo is a fast aggro deck and not a midrange deck. I dont unterstand why you're talking about it. And everybody who says that Fireblast is wrong in Zoo doesnt know how this deck works... and the discussion about Lion>>Ape is dispensable, too. Ape blocks always better than Lion, because you need the Savannah to block a Kird Ape in the mirror and you want so fetch always a Taiga.
Gaddock Teeg doesnt harmonizes with your own Fireblast but on a tournament with a lot of ANT builds it is solid in main.

[jandax]

Opponents will gladly let you run your Teeg into a bigger blocker so that you can FB them. Or they fear that and let him through, so either way mission accomplished.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Ah yes, Mystical Tutor is banned. I guess Wizards heard the Zoo-ru's pleas for help and granted me my wish. Good times, good times.

[menace13]

Ah yes, Mystical Tutor is banned. I guess Wizards heard the Zoo-ru's pleas for help and granted me my wish. Good times, good times.

Dammm you Zoo-ru... You'll Pay for this!!!!!!!!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Dammm you Zoo-ru... You'll Pay for this!!!!!!!!

Like I was seriously thinking about taking an extended break from Legacy or quitting even because I couldn't play what I wanted to play, but this seriously balancing shit out. I've known how good a deck Reanimator has been since before it got popular as hell. I've been scared of it, and scared of Combo too. I haven't even bothered SB cards to fight ANT because it's such an abysmal matchup.

I have lost several games to combo just because I didn't get that key turn I needed to make another land drop for burn. Now that problem is fixed. I played Dragon Stompy last night because that's how fucking fast the format is. I did well too. I guess it's time for my comeback with the foil Nacatls I've had since GP:Chicago.

[menace13]

I guess it's time for my comeback with the foil Nacatls I've had since GP:Chicago.
Nah, DCI will just unban Oath next June.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Nah, DCI will just unban Oath next June.

They'll ban everything until Shock is good, then they'll ban Shock.

[jazzykat]

Uh, did you see the results of the last 2 SCG Opens. Zoo was doing pretty good. Now it will be Countertop decks with 1 Million Creature removal spells.

IMO neutering combo will be to the long term detriment of zoo and the rise of Old School nuke your board control.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

IMO neutering combo will be to the long term detriment of zoo and the rise of Old School nuke your board control.

At least I don't die turn 3 without a fighting chance to those decks. Doesn't seem too bad to me. I've beaten UWB Landstill several times even though that deck is removal.dec

[jandax]

Yeah, playing less goldfish matches makes Legacy a better format. In the end, nothing is unwinnable, and I am just glad "my deck" didn't get neutered.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yeah like I guess it's time that everyone starts discussing boarding strategies for Countertop again, for that big blue boogie man is gonna come back again.

But to be fair, in my meta, all the kids still play TobascoTop to honor him or something. So I guess it won't be anything different for me.

[jandax]

CT is a winnable matchup, maybe it is time for Burning-Tree Shaman to shine (again?) Teegs and Grips keep it honest

However, the mirror should probably be addressed as well, as those not already playing CT/Tribes will probably scraping together a zoo list.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

CT is a winnable matchup, maybe it is time for Burning-Tree Shaman to shine (again?) Teegs and Grips keep it honest

However, the mirror should probably be addressed as well, as those not already playing CT/Tribes will probably scraping together a zoo list.

Winnable, but in my meta it's miserable for Zoo. It's always CBTop, Sower, Shackles, recurring EE. Sounds miserable eh? Well it is.

The mirror is just outdrawing them, and my new tech card, ORDER OF THE WHITECLAY! But seriously, Order of The Whiteclay.

[jandax]

Yeah, that is pretty miserable. I play either Zoo or Dredge because I feel one deck is right for any given tournament.

But seriously, Order of the Whiteclay?

[honestabe]

Dear Zoo players.

Congrats on having the best deck in the format

Love,
The Former ANT players

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yeah, that is pretty miserable. I play either Zoo or Dredge because I feel one deck is right for any given tournament.

But seriously, Order of the Whiteclay?

When I play Dredge, I don't feel like I'm playing Magic. I hate combo oriented decks, always have. The deck is really good, but I can't bring myself to play it. I guess if I wanted want to JUST win, I'd play a deck like that.

And HELL YES. Unless Zoo has a PTE then it's just like, LOLZ THANKS FOR MY D00DS BACK!

@honestabe: Don't be bitter brah. Just cause you can't goldfish doesn't mean ya gotta hate on us :D

[jandax]

Welp, Mindbreak trap is coming out of the board so maybe there's room for some Order's :D

And unless I am missing something, the only way to tap it is with attacking right? It does have a "cute" air around it, and definitely some surprise factor with which an advantage can be taken.

I think I will try this out for funsies. My Standard season is over so I see the next few months full of Legacy/Limited.

And of course you played Dredge because you wanted to win. That's why we play, right: to win? Dredge is fragile enough to be kept honest. And now that Reanimator is going down in popularity, so will the hate, making it a good choice once again. I just like attackign with 2 powered duders

[jrsthethird]

For people like me who don't know what it does:

Order of Whiteclay

Anyway, MB Trap might be more important than before; if Zoo becomes the best deck, then Lands and Belcher will see more play. You need them to win against Belcher.

EDIT: Order seems bad, I'd rather run Bloodbraid Elf.

[jandax]

How often does Lands cast spells to make MBT a freebee? I have seen the deck played out enough but have yet to sit across from it. MBT Totally hoses belcher, yet what does one counter? ETW or Belcher itself?

[jrsthethird]

Belcher is going to dumb his hand to either go all-in on Belcher or on ETW. You counter whatever he does, he's left with no hand and 1 or 2 mana on board, so he needs to draw into 3 or 4 acceleration AND a win condition before you race him. Not hard.

I never said MB Trap was good against Lands, just Belcher. The only time Lands will play 3 spells in a turn is in the late game when they cast 2 Loams and something like a Tormod's Crypt.

[bondfan]

My meta has basically shifted to being anti aggro...I did pretty bad today and i basically lost to a bunch of midrange decks and Jitte. I was wondering if you guys know of any "tech" to help against these match ups. I'm looking at a stoneforge package or adding more big guys such as 3-4 knights.

[hungryLIKEALION]

4-0'd a small tournament at Cyborg 1 in Doylestown PA today with Zoo, ending in 1st place. It's been like, 4 or 5 months since the last time I played Zoo, so this felt pretty good. It was a lot of fun to play the deck again, and this basically restored my confidence in the archetype so I may take it to more tournaments soon. We'll have to see how I feel, I guess. Anyway, the list. Pretty typical for how they're looking lately.

4 Wild Nacatl (4 Foil!)
3 Grim Lavamancer (1 Foil!)
2 Kird Ape (2 Foil!)
1 Steppe Lynx (Foil!)
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage (2 Foil!)
2 Knight Of The Reliquary (1 Russian Foil! :D)

4 Lightning Bolt (4 Textless Foil!)
3 Chain Lightning (3 English!)
2 Lightning Helix (2 Textless!)
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile (4 Judge Foil!)

3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt

The maindeck felt really good. As much as I hate to admit it, Zoo's position in the metagame has changed significantly. Since we no longer have inevitability on most of the blue decks and it's getting pretty likely they're going to be packing more creature hate than before. Anyway, I know I have some really stupid numbers (1 Lynx? I only had 1 foil and didn't wanna run non-foil 1 drops that weren't rares ;p It was actually pretty okay though, surprisingly enough.) Playing no Libraries is a first for me in a long time, but they're pretty impossible to take advantage of in the current metagame, and maindeck jittes are just too slow for what we need them to do. In addition, the maindeck Pops and Fireblasts give us the reach and speed we need right now. In the past I hated fireblast in the deck, but they feel good now. I like them.

Sideboard was pretty good to me, and I think this is the direction Zoo sideboards are going to have to go in this new metagame even though I still feel like it looks like crap on paper. Whatever, it worked.

The tournament started at 6, and I had work until 5:30 at Wegmans, so my friend Matt (Tammit67) came and picked me up with his friend Rob and the three of us headed to the site. I'd decided a few days ago I wanted to play Zoo and not Excalibur, and I threw together a sideboard at like 8 am. We got to the site, bummed around for a few minutes, then the tournament began.

Round 1 Vs. Joe playing UWr Landstill

I didn't know what he was playing, but I won the roll and kept a strong hand with a nacatl, an ape, and a lavamancer + some burn. He FoWd my t1 Nacatl, making me think Reanimator, then fow'd my t2 Lavamancer (Ape resolved) after playing a tundra and brainstorming on my turn. It quickly became apparent he was on Landstill. Ape beat down for several turns while he snared my pridemage before he managed to halt the ape by dropping humility with a Factory in play. I considered trying to force Ape through with burn on the factory, but then he cycled decree of justice making that seem like a bad plan. At this point I had Helix and Fireblast as my last two cards in hand, and 5 lands on the board. He played a standstill, so in response I cast helix and fireblast to put him on 2. I topdecked a chain lightning, then topdecked a second chain, so I played the first to break standstill. He drew three cards, activated his factory and swordsed it to stay at 2. I revealed the second chain and he conceded.

-2 Knight of the Reliquary, -4 Path, -1 Grim Lavamancer +2 Krosan Grip +2 Blasts +3 Choke

I know it kinda sucks to be taking out a 1 drop in a matchup where having one is so important, but lavamancer is by far the least impressive of them all and I feel like it's the best card to cut here since burn is very effective.

Game two I open on Nacatl which resolves, then he swordses it when I attack the next turn. I play another nacatl and a lavamancer. The second nacatl also eats a plow, but the lavamancer sticks around to beat down and throw some fallen cats and fetchlands at him. Unfortunately for him, he gets stuck on two lands... for a long time. Lavamancer beats him down to 10 before he draws a third land (Factory). I EOT Lava him, untap, chain, Price for 4, and then mance him again for victory.

He shows me his hand after the game ends, and I have to admit it was ridiculously stacked. He had Humility, Moat, EE, and Pulse of the Fields all ready to play, if only he could acheive the mana for them. Lucky me, I guess.

1-0

Round two I played against a guy playing a foiled out standard Jund deck from standard. Game one he mulled to 5 and I had turn 1 nacatl. He had... nothing until turn 3 when he played a sprouting thrinax. I pathed it and then pathed the follow up thrinax, at which point I burned him out.

-2 Grim Lavamancer -2 Lightning Helix -1 Chain +3 Jitte +2 Swords. I'm not sure this is correct, though it's honestly not relevant since it waas against a standard deck...

Game two was pretty quick as he again mulled to 5 and I kept a hand with tarmogoyf, pridemage, jitte, path, and three land. I topdecked a second pridemage which allowed the first to trade with his Putrid Leech, then smashed in with a 5/6 goyf until he was at 5. Both our hands were empty, as were the boards. Nicely though, I was playing this awesome card called Price of Progress... 10 damage for 1R? Yeah, pretty nice.

2-0

Round three I played against Dave with Elves. For a non-combo elf deck it was pretty well tuned. Anyway, game one he hits triple Sylvan Messenger and I draw 5 lands in a row. Triple Kicked Joraga lord guy beats me. :[

-2 Knight of the Reliquary, -3 PoP +2 Swords +3 Jitte

Game two I keep a hand with 3 burn spells, swords, Jitte and two lands. I eventually draw a pridemage to put Jitte on, which tilts the game heavily in my favor. Then he plays Chalice at 1, which seems like an odd choice to me... but I guess it was good since I then drew 4 one drops in a row. I have to make a really awkward fireblast on a lord, but I still have three more lands left over afterwards so it's okay. Eventually Pridemage got him down within burn range, at which point I used it to blow up the chalice and finish him off with some lightning. Hooray!

Game three I keep a one lander on 6 cards with Grim, Ape, and copious removal. I draw two more lands, but he draws two wastelands, making things... really rough. I get a lot of mileage out of lavamancer, but since I'm stuck lavamancing one critter per turn while racing him (Pridemage vs. Wren's Run Vanquisher) it's hard to keep up with his elves. Eventually I get the second land (though I'm forced to double block his vanquisher to avoid death) and put a tarmogoyf in play followed by a new lavamancer. I draw both my lightning helixes which prove to be extremely clutch since they give me the life I need to stabilize, and lavamancer keeps his board clear while goyf finishes him off.

3-0

Round four I play against my friend Matt who brought CountertopThop to the table today. Game one I play t1 Nacatl, t2 Chain+ Swing
(14) t3 Bolt + Goyf (Countered) + Swing (8) t4 Swing + Pridemage (Snared) + Bolt (2) t5 Win. Yaaaaaay.

-2 Knight of the Reliquary, -4 Path to Exile, -1 Grim Lavamancer, +3 Choke +2 Blasts +2 Krosan Grip.

Game two we both keep 1 landers. Mine is full of ridiculous gas including multiple one drops, price, and choke, but I don't draw the second land for far too long while he assembles countertop and thoptersword. I scoop when he starts thopthopthopthopthopping.

Game three my hand is a lot better, though it's like 4 one drops so I run the serious risk of getting blown out. Luckily enough, the 5th card is choke and the other two are lands. Cool! I go hardcore aggro with one drops, and he has to plow my nacatl and figure before trinket maging for EE. I take the opportunity with him tapped out to cast Choke, which resolves. He has a factory and a seat of the synod which untap, but he can't make EE at 1 and crack it in the same turn, giving me enough time to put him down to 9. From there, Chain and PoP for 6 finish the game.

4-0

The deck was great. I'd play this maindeck again in a heartbeat, and it was a lot of fun to return to my old stomping grounds on the taigas and plateaus. I'm not sure what I'll play at the next vestal event, but I'll definitely be considering Zoo pretty heavily.

Thanks for reading.

[jrsthethird]

Good job Harry, I wish you would have said something about going because I definitely would have went with you! I went last week but didn't want to drive all the way again by myself. Are you still not going next weekend?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Thanks Joe. I only went because Matt offered to pick me up after work, sorry I didn't think to let you know. I'm working next weekend, but I'll be at the one next month.

[jandax]

Heya Hungry, your sideboard looks a ton like mine, but I have one question about it. I have completely removed Jitte/Library from my list for more burn (2 helix/3 pop) and feel this is the right move considering the inevitable shift in the metagame due to Mystical bannings. You ever feel Jittes were too slow, or were just so glad you had them?

[neji21]

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting a thread in mtgthesource and I wanted to have some advice on my zoo deck. I don't know why but even with this built I have been having problem beating Agrro Loam deck. My deck is almost same as Matt Elias deck except for some changes here and there.


4x Wild Nacatl
4x Steppe Lynx
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Loam lion
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Price of Progress
2x Fireblast
3x Path to Exile

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept heath
1x Arid Mesa
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
2x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Plain

SB
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Mindbreak Trap

And I have 3 spaces left in my sideboard and I can't think of any hate cards for Aggro Loam. Any help or comment will be much appreciated.

[Valtrix]

Well, the question is which part of aggro loam are you having trouble against? Personally, I think Burrenton Forge Tender is actually a relevant hate card against them, since it can chump crusher all day, and stop the damage from a devastating dreams, which I found to be the game breaker in that matchup. However, it's rather limited. I would think it could be decent in the mirror--Protect your guys, block a couple red guys, or counter a burn spell, and also some use vs. dredge. Duergar hedge mage can also be good against them, since it gives you another guy, it kills chalice, seismic assault, and sometime EE, though the condition can be harder to get when you're concerned about basics. My last suggestion is perhaps some swords in the board, so that you can just get rid of their guys more, and those are also very useful in other matchups.

In other words, I haven't played the match recently, but I think these three are all options that could be used against them, depending on what you're concerned about. It's going to be a tough matchup regardless, since sometimes they'll just get us, especially if they can land chalice at 1, since that hurts us so much. Also, I think that faerie macabre is better than relic in the board, since relic kills our tempo too much, in every match it's relevant for. It doesn't get that much out of their graveyard for aggro loam, but my thoughts are that we only need to hinder the graveyard a little bit, not always completely destroy, since we have the speed to still win.

[Brizentine Empire]

Faerie Macabre is a card that I've been testing lately, and would do well against Aggro Loam. It can remove Loam and a creature if they have Stronghold, or two lands for Terravore, etc. The card is actually very good in a number of matchups: Reanimator, Lands, New Horizons, etc. You should try it.

[hungryLIKEALION]

relic is horrible for our sideboard, don't run it. Crypt and Faerie are infinitely better.

Edit//Oh, and no, I don't think Jitte is too slow on our board. In the matchups where you want it, you're okay with slowing down because you have, if not parity, inevitability (Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Mirror).

[neji21]

Well, the question is which part of aggro loam are you having trouble against? Personally, I think Burrenton Forge Tender is actually a relevant hate card against them, since it can chump crusher all day, and stop the damage from a devastating dreams, which I found to be the game breaker in that matchup. However, it's rather limited. I would think it could be decent in the mirror--Protect your guys, block a couple red guys, or counter a burn spell, and also some use vs. dredge. Duergar hedge mage can also be good against them, since it gives you another guy, it kills chalice, seismic assault, and sometime EE, though the condition can be harder to get when you're concerned about basics. My last suggestion is perhaps some swords in the board, so that you can just get rid of their guys more, and those are also very useful in other matchups.

In other words, I haven't played the match recently, but I think these three are all options that could be used against them, depending on what you're concerned about. It's going to be a tough matchup regardless, since sometimes they'll just get us, especially if they can land chalice at 1, since that hurts us so much. Also, I think that faerie macabre is better than relic in the board, since relic kills our tempo too much, in every match it's relevant for. It doesn't get that much out of their graveyard for aggro loam, but my thoughts are that we only need to hinder the graveyard a little bit, not always completely destroy, since we have the speed to still win.

Thank you Valtrix for replying so quickly, actually my main problem with the guy I play Aggro Loam was dealing with Devastating Dreams. I can some what deal with chalice since I got Qasali Pridemage but, when he Devastating Dreams almost all the time I can never really recover from it and causes me to lose the game.


Faerie Macabre is a card that I've been testing lately, and would do well against Aggro Loam. It can remove Loam and a creature if they have Stronghold, or two lands for Terravore, etc. The card is actually very good in a number of matchups: Reanimator, Lands, New Horizons, etc. You should try it

Thank you Brizentine Empire for also replying to my post so quickly. I have thought of using Faerie Macabre but never tried it I think i'll try to see how it works.

[neji21]

relic is horrible for our sideboard, don't run it. Crypt and Faerie are infinitely better.

Edit//Oh, and no, I don't think Jitte is too slow on our board. In the matchups where you want it, you're okay with slowing down because you have, if not parity, inevitability (Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Mirror).

I like Relic of Progenitus for New Horizon because I can kill there Terravore and make their Knight of the Reliquary small.

[Valtrix]

Well, if DD is your problem, the only "true" answer to that is Burrenton Forge Tender. Why? Because most likely you're going to have the better creatures on the board, and if DD only becomes an armegeddon, then your opponent is going to be in a very painful situation. Otherwise, there's not really a sideboard card that is going to help against DD. (Okay, Tajuru Preserver doesn't count.) The key is to play very carefully with your lands, which oddly enough can be a struggle.

Also, I back up what lion says. Any graveyard hate that costs mana hampers this deck. I do agree that relic is better vs. New Horizons; however, we need the free cost of faerie/crypt against reanimator or dredge. Otherwise we have a good chance of just losing. I think the instances where you need that tempo boost to not be shut out in a game is much better than the chances we'll need it against new horizons, since we still have a game vs. New Horizons without relic.

[voltron00x]

You can get around Devastating Dreams by playing something narrow like Sacred Ground, so that it becomes merely a sweeper and not a sweeper + Armageddon. Then as long as you extend yourself cautiously you should be ok. If you're running up against a lot of Lands or Stax decks, it also has relevance there.

I've also been thinking about playing something like Reprisal instead of bleeding into STP after I hit 4 Paths; Reprisal should usually kill opposing Goyfs / Knights in the mirror with the benefit of potential relevance in other match-ups (such as Terravore against Aggro Loam or New Horizons).

One of the things I love about Legacy is that the card pool is about the same as Vintage, but the actual playable card count is exponentially higher. There aren't many problems in Legacy that you can't solve, sometimes you just have to consider narrow applications.

[Valtrix]

I feel like reprisal would be a poor choice, even though it doesn't give them live. To start it costs 2, which slows your tempo down a lot and increases its chance to be dazed. I think that tempo loss alone is worth the life, since chances are you'll make it up with the extra mana you have open. However, I think the larger problem is that 4-power is actually very narrow, because you can't count on it to kill goyfs, and it certainly doesn't kill those problem rhox war monks.

[voltron00x]

Well I don't think I'm advocating bringing Reprisal in against a deck with Rhox War Monk, although I guess some New Horizons players pack them in the board? Still, new Horizons is loaded with Reprisal targets. In the mirror, even a Wild Nacatl with Exalted or a Steppe Lynx off a fetch crack is going to be 4 power. You won't be hurting for targets. Specifically, the question was, "I'm losing to Aggro Loam, help!", so Reprisal is an option there to clear out large targets that isn't dead in other match-ups (ie New Horizons, the mirror).

If I'm considering a board that has, say, no Storm hate and replaces it with 4th Path to Exile, 2 Jitte, and 1 ??? card, I would consider a Reprisal over a Swords b/c I really don't want to give my opponents a massive chuck of life. I'd rather pay 1 extra mana in most of those match-ups, I think, if we're talking about a 1-of or 2-of out of the SB; the only benefit to STP in the mirror is the ability to healing salve yourself by plowing your own guy. A lot of those mirror matches come down to Goyf superiority or Jitte.

[Fuzzy]

What about Temporal Isolation or Journey to Nowhere?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Temporal Isolation is great because if you put it on a goyf and the opponent wants to use EE to blow up Isolation, they pop their own goyf too. That's a serious advantage over Journey.

[Bokonon]

As to the question of whether Jitte still has a place in the new meta: I'd argue that if anything it's actually now more important than before. Mirror matches and aggro v. aggro matches are going to be rampant in Columbus, and he who lands the first Jitte often wins in these. All three of Jitte's modes are back-breaking against aggro - removal for opposing lynxes/nacatls/winning goyf wars, +2/+2s again for Goyf wars and speed, and lifegain to slow down their clock while keeping yours fast. Admittedly, the lifegain is by far the weakest of the three, but since our fundamental turn is generally t4, Jitte is certainly fast enough to hit the table and turn games around.

Honestly, I'm thinking about moving to the Stoneforge package build (1 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Collar) maindeck. Collar/Lavamancer is pretty powerful against New Horizons, which I imagine will also become a dominating player in this meta. Their threats are huge compared to ours, and Collar, even if we don't see Lavamancer, makes their attack step much harder to calculate. Stoneforge itself seems weak, but as a singleton it really doesn't slow us down much, and it gives us a lot of tutoring flexibility (having two Jittes in deck risks seeing them both in the same hand, which is invariably bad).

I have taken Library out though. Generally the card quality has never really made up for the tempo loss - I'd almost always rather just see burn (or even lands for my current build which runs lynx over ape), and very few matchups give me the opportunity to eat the extra life to even make up the CA from having to play the spell in the first place. I know that in longer mirror path battles, Library will make a difference, but the loss of speed just doesn't feel right in the current meta to me.

[jrsthethird]

Temporal Isolation is great because if you put it on a goyf and the opponent wants to use EE to blow up Isolation, they pop their own goyf too. That's a serious advantage over Journey.

Also, you can pop it on your own Goyf or Knight, swing through a clogged board, and blow up the Isolation with Pridemage after blockers to deal the last few damage to your opponent can sometimes be good.

EDIT: Temporal Isolation. I totally forgot it had flash; maybe we should tag cards more often. :rolleyes:

[mchainmail]

Temporal Isolation is great because if you put it on a goyf and the opponent wants to use EE to blow up Isolation, they pop their own goyf too. That's a serious advantage over Journey.

Never mind it has um... flash?

[jandax]

As to the question of whether Jitte still has a place in the new meta: I'd argue that if anything it's actually now more important than before. Mirror matches and aggro v. aggro matches are going to be rampant in Columbus, and he who lands the first Jitte often wins in these. All three of Jitte's modes are back-breaking against aggro - removal for opposing lynxes/nacatls/winning goyf wars, +2/+2s again for Goyf wars and speed, and lifegain to slow down their clock while keeping yours fast. Admittedly, the lifegain is by far the weakest of the three, but since our fundamental turn is generally t4, Jitte is certainly fast enough to hit the table and turn games around.

Honestly, I'm thinking about moving to the Stoneforge package build (1 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Collar) maindeck. Collar/Lavamancer is pretty powerful against New Horizons, which I imagine will also become a dominating player in this meta. Their threats are huge compared to ours, and Collar, even if we don't see Lavamancer, makes their attack step much harder to calculate. Stoneforge itself seems weak, but as a singleton it really doesn't slow us down much, and it gives us a lot of tutoring flexibility (having two Jittes in deck risks seeing them both in the same hand, which is invariably bad).

I have taken Library out though. Generally the card quality has never really made up for the tempo loss - I'd almost always rather just see burn (or even lands for my current build which runs lynx over ape), and very few matchups give me the opportunity to eat the extra life to even make up the CA from having to play the spell in the first place. I know that in longer mirror path battles, Library will make a difference, but the loss of speed just doesn't feel right in the current meta to me.

I see eye to eye with you and have mirrored many changes, but let's be fair; we're just speculating until the next big gig sets teh scene. I assume that'll be GP Columbus, unless theres another 5k or two before that weekend. Collar does seem very strong against New Horizons before they go get their Grips. Good input

[Valtrix]

I had been thinking about the same thing as well, which is why I posted a list with collar in it a few pages back. My only concern is that they'll just EE for 1 to destroy it, but is that still worth it then? Luckily they'll probably want to play EE early though, so we can hold onto collar until they've used their EE.

[jrsthethird]

I see eye to eye with you and have mirrored many changes, but let's be fair; we're just speculating until the next big gig sets teh scene. I assume that'll be GP Columbus, unless theres another 5k or two before that weekend. Collar does seem very strong against New Horizons before they go get their Grips. Good input

SCG St. Louis is this weekend, but the update doesn't even matter for that, and the next one is in August.

[jandax]

@valtrix: they can EE it, Grip (from the sideboard) it, FoW it, Stifle SFM's ability, daze it but that can be played around. That's 14 cards maindeck that they have to handle it. Now that i wrote all that out...makes it seem kinda fragile lol

[Ozymandias]

So I decided to go against my normal non-interactive roots and swing with hardcast dudes in Legacy. Here's what I'm looking at right now:

//Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
//Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
//Lands
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Price of Progress
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip

A pretty standard Zoo build, a little heavy on the burn. I guess the question is, am I going to want any of the following cards maindeck:

Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, Sylvan Library, Gaddock Teeg, or Fireblast

The SB is pretty slapdash, but I wanted to cover the major bases of GY hate, storm hate, anti-aggro cards in Jitte, and anti-CB cards in Kgrip. What savage tech did I miss?

Card availability will not be an issue. Also, the tournament I will be taking this deck to is taking place pre-bannings, for what that changes (Fireblast? Steppe Lynx? Teeg?)

Thanks for your help.

[jandax]

I think if you're willing to punt storm matches, you'll shore up pretty much the rest of the field. Burn heavy builds will get there more than decks cold to Firespout.

[Ozymandias]

If I wanted to make my storm matchup a bit more liveable, What about squeezing two Teeg in MD and one SB for a land, Lion, and SB price?

Last tourney, the top 8 was CBTop Prog, Goblins, Merfolk x2, Ad Nauseum Tendrils x2, Belcher, UW Tempo, so punting storm seems a bad plan.

[jandax]

I mean, I maindeck two Teegs, but it is just a delay tactic. There's not much you can do outside of Mindbreak trapping to keep them off Ad Nauseum that'll give you a better chance. About the best hand you can open with would be two or three nacatls, a teeg, and a MBT with enough lands. Then a simple duress can wreck your day. Sure this is all speculation, just saying

[danielcrocker]

I personally really like pyroblast and REB for the top matchup.... 2 blast 2 REB 2-3 grip

[danielcrocker]

Ozymandias .... I like the list but I would make room for 3 Lynx.
-1 loam lion
-1 path
-1 helix or price of progress
you still have the balance of mid to late game strength and early explosivness with lynx ... It's so
easy turn 2 7 damge to the head with the lynx I think it would be silly not to play .

Turn 1: land and lynx
Turn 2: fetch for land, lynx 4/5, burn(or path), burn

Ps. A lot of people think lynx sucks late game but it really isn't that bad when you have 1-2 pridemage or knight out.


I just saw you aren't fireblast ... I really like 2 maindeck because of the sick tech with knight

[Ozymandias]

I'm leery of cutting Paths because they are really your only out for creatures bigger than bolt range, but I could cut a helix and a lion. that gives me 12 1-drops between nacatl/mancer/lion/lynx.

[hungryLIKEALION]

The speed of fireblast is very helpful in the current meta, so you would be well served by swapping two helixes for two fireblasts.

[danielcrocker]

Yea path is never bad especially against new horizons ... Path works good if you
need mana or if you you're playing blast and need to sac

[danielcrocker]

Yea path is never bad especially against new horizons ... Path works good if you
need mana or if you you're playing blast and need to sac

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just heard a rumor guys. Mystical Tutor might be banned, so you don't have to run bad inconsistent cards to speed up the deck anymore.

From me to you,
The Zoo-ru


P.S.-Jitte is broken. Run the card before you make snap judgments:smile:

[hungryLIKEALION]

Or, if you like winning, you can actually pay attention to what mystical tutor's banning means for the meta, and adjust your deck accordingly.

But that would be... gasp... smart.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Or, if you like winning, you can actually pay attention to what mystical tutor's banning means for the meta, and adjust your deck accordingly.

But that would be... gasp... smart.

I win a lot with my list, and against Counterbalance decks designed to rape aggro as well. All Mystical Tutor getting banned tells me is that I'll get to play the same list I've been playing with because the format will slow down again. I don't have to worry about getting jizzed all over by some combo deck as much. That extra turn I'll get is all I'll need to finish the game. I'm prepared to play against everything else.

[from Cairo]

Or, if you like winning, you can actually pay attention to what mystical tutor's banning means for the meta, and adjust your deck accordingly.

But that would be... gasp... smart.

Presumably it means the format's top combo decks (Reanimator and ANT) are slower and less consistent than they used to be. As a result the agro deck's need to win quick/explosively (less need for Lynx/Gob Guide/Fireblast) loses some value compared to maintaining their own consistency (more midranged geared: lands, Jitte, Sylvan, KotR). It probably means the format as a whole will slow down some, and that big control decks (Landstill, ~39 Lands, and Ultimate Walker) will have a place in the meta again as agro and agro control will be running rampant and traditionally dedicated control can metagame to beat the top agro/agro control decks, where it was harder to be well prepared for them and Mystical Tutor powered Reanimator and ANT.

To prepare the deck for this sort of meta shift, it probably make sense to develop a SB strategy to gear towards speed versus control and to gear toward winning the attrition battles versus agro.

To me things that jump out as strong hate cards for Zoo for the upcoming metagame include: Gaddock Teeg (EE, AdN, Tendrils, Jace TMS, Elspeth, Humility), Stoneforge Mystic (Jitte wins agro mirrors, SFM provides card advantage while tutoring it), Eternal Witness (out of the SB is really good in the agro mirrors and control as well, recycling PTEs and Bolts, while providing a body to clog the board), Tin Street Hooligan (another CitP ability - one that hits opposing Jittes, Aether Vials, Vedalken Shackles, CotV@1, etc).

This is the list I'm currently testing:

// Land 21
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

// Creatures 22
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Relequary

//Spells 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

[samurai_socks]

Artifacts
1 Basilisk Collar

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Price of Progress

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

This is the list i have been testing since the ban announcement. The decks that are most regularly in my metagame are:
Merfolk
Bant
NO Bant
Lands
Imperial Painter
Zoo
Rogue

There used to be a reanimator player and one ad nauseum player so they will both have to switch and they will probably switch to a blue deck making painter even more powerful of a deck. I do not have imperial recruiters though.

One stoneforge and one sylvan library has been testing really well. You almost never want 2 libraries. Stoneforge mystic also give you an extra shuffle effect with library which is quasi useful. I have been very, very impressed with basilisk collar. I would be playing sharpshotter in the board if i was in a more aggro metage.

-Cheers-

[Brizentine Empire]

The Reanimator and ANT players won't "have to switch" just because of the banning of Mystical Tutor. Yes, its banning hurts both decks' consistency, but it doesn't mean that the decks will cease being played. Reanimator can play Intuition instead. Although it costs two more, it can put two creatures into the yard at once or get the entomb, exhume, force of will, etc. that they need. And ANT players can play a 4th IT, along with more Ponders and Thoughtseize. So don't dismiss these decks from the format, as I'll bet that they will still be represented in the top 8s of the big tournaments this summer.

[jandax]

Welp, this weekend I'm going to be battling with this list. Maybe something different on Sunday, as I might have to redo the sideboard. Maindeck I am happy with, I just haven't run it in any tournaments as of yet.

Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gaddock Teeg

Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast

Utility
4 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library

11 Fetchlands
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain/forest/plains

SB:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 Basilisk collar
3 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge


I haven't played legacy since GP Brussels and therefore can't come up with a tuned list. We'll see. I can't wait though, gonna be awesome. I'd still like to hear people chime in on the Ape vs. Lynx vs. Lion argument. Maybe one day I'll run lynxs over the lions, just to see for myself.

[Ozymandias]

Well, the way I see it, Lynx vs Ape/Lion comes down to speed vs. consistency, and to a lesser extent offensive vs. defensive power. With a fetch, Lynx will go for 4 on turn 2, but that's not always the case, and if you don't have a steady stream of mana, then your Lynx is going to be a very sad 0/1. Also, you need an active knight or fetches to ever make a non-chump block. Ape and Lion, on the other hand, are 2/3s 90% of the time, and will barring wasteland or a blood moon, stay that way. Of course, they will swing for half of the lucky lynx owner, but in a deck with 20 lands, luck can change.

Now, Ape vs Lion comes down to: which dual of savanna/taiga do you want to fetch out? Savannah turns on all of your creatures (except Lavamancer), but leaves off your burn, while red turns on all of your burn (but Helix,) but leaves off Qasali, Knight, Path and sometimes Teeg. Which one of these is more important early in your meta is going to determine which of Ape vs. Lion is the better choice.

[jandax]

I could cut the Teegs and Library for three lynxes. Thing is I've been glad to have those cards in teh past, yet I know how explosive lynx can be which suits the prime directive.

[dyzzy]

I was thinking about building a black splash version for Bob (or just do full domain for Tribal Flames). Has anyone tried it out? How does it do against the mirror?

[jandax]

You'd be taking an extra damage or two from Bob every turn, supposing your opponent lets him live. And it has been brought up in this thread before, but the manabase is way to cold to wasteland, and this thread is dedicated to RGW Zoo as some other posters might tell you in harsher tones.

[Valtrix]

If wasteland didn't exist I'd say it'd be better. However, because of wasteland I think that it becomes more difficult to remain consistent. You're already pushed a lot of directions to for colors, so adding another color makes it even harder. It's not an exact replacement, but a couple sylvan libraries can perform a very similar role to confidant should be looking for a draw ability.

[jandax]

Oh yeah, after playing two tournaments with Lynxes over Lions, I am totally sold on them now. Same maindeck as posted above, different sideboard. I did terrible, breaking even both days when I should have been in contention had it not been for ignorance to the format (not knowing lots of matchups)

[Valtrix]

Should lynx still be run, considering he's much less useful in the mirror? 1 jitte counter kills it, and it's terrible on defense. Sure he can be explosive, but I think that you add more inconsistency to the deck, and become weaker in the mirror match.

[jandax]

I was quite happy with the results. I look at it this way, Lynx lets you rip a land and be a hero. It has more synergy to exploit from the fetchlands (like Goyf, kotr, Lavamancer, nacatls to a degree) If you're on the draw game 2/3 you side them out obv.

[Bokonon]

Should lynx still be run, considering he's much less useful in the mirror?

I would argue that if anything, lion and ape are next to useless in the mirror. They trade with nothing on the opponent's board. If the opponent has even a single Nacatl out, suddenly lions and apes have to sit back, unable to attack well or even trade on defense short of a pre-charged jitte or an exalted trigger. As odd as it sounds, a 2/3 for 1 in the mirror might as well often be a 0/1, for all that it will be doing. Sure, add in a lavamancer and you can force some trades, but on the all literally everything you're facing in the mirror is bigger than ape/lion, and they become, at best, a wall to hold off the opponent's apes or single-landfall lynxes.

That said, I believe that in a wide meta where zoo isn't dominant, ape/lion are probably better, and certainly more stable. There certainly is a tradeoff between speed and stability and lynx is far to the fast/unstable side. However, I may be wrong, but I don't think this will be that metagame. Zoo, I imagine, will be everywhere at Columbus, as will be decks like Enchantress and Lands that predate on us. For once I disagree with Bailey that it's time for us to slow down zoo and make it more stable again; the decks that hate us will have us locked out by turn 4 if we don't have them nearly dead by then. Even without the tyrant of ANT everywhere, we still need speed to out race their lockdowns, or die 17 turns later to a Mishra's factory. I think the deck that prevails will be slightly slower than the balls-to-the wall Elias zoo types (maybe helix back in instead of fireblast, and the addition of Jitte with or without SFM), but speed is still essential in the non-mirror matches, and I think lynx plays an important role there.

All of that said, though, both are pretty bad against the mirror, and they'd be among the first things I'd side out.

tl;dr version: Lynx is actually better in the mirror, and zoo shouldn't slow down too much, or risk being unable to race the hate decks.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I will say this to all Zoo players, get ready to lose to Enchantress. My friend has been playing the deck for years and I always moan and groan when I have to play against him in tournament play because that deck rapes Zoo so hard.

The only way I've discovered to beat it, is hope he get SUPER unlucky with Enchantress effects, or to just draw triples of really good cards like Pridemage. From what he tells me, the Steppe Lynx/burn decks do better, but not by much. Unless they get the god draws then they're just as screwed as the kind of list I play.

And I don't think Lands is that bad of a matchup. The only reason I lost to it at the 5k is because that blue lands guy lucksacked in topdeck mode into Intuition. As you all know, PoP is INSANE. I also have boarded a couple of Blood Moons for decks like that on certain occasions.

[kabal]

I will say this to all Zoo players, get ready to lose to Enchantress.

M11 wants to have a word with you >

Back to Nature - 1g
Instant
Destroy all enchantments.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

M11 wants to have a word with you >

Back to Nature - 1g
Instant
Destroy all enchantments.

I haven't seen you post in forever my friend! I kinda like another card better. I hate playing into their Replenish though. I like that card that bounces all Enchantments to their owners library.

[kabal]

I haven't seen you post in forever my friend!

I know ... haven't played in a SuperGames tournament in a while but I'll be back soon.

[Valtrix]

Tranquil domain already exists. Sure, it doesn't hit auras, but I think you'd be okay ;) Plus, it's a replenish that you're scared of.

[neji21]

I went to Knightware tournament yesterday in LA and got 3 place over 51 people. My record was 5-2-1

Rd 1: UW Tempo 2-0
Rd 2: Ant 2-1 Funny how I got lucky and won this game because my opponent forgot to fill out his decklist and got an automatic game 1 loss.
Rd 3: Next I went up against my best friend and he was using Merfolk and I lost 0-2... but I didn't feel bad because he kept on winning and got first place. Also he beat 2 more other Zoo deck 2-0.
Rd 4: Zoo 2-0 was an easy win beat him with Steppe Lynx and kotr.
Rd 5: Merfolk 2-0
Rd 6: Evagreen draw
Rd 7: UB Faerie 2-0
Rd 8: Reanimator 1-2

The top 8 consisted of me as Zoo, Zoo, UB Faerie, Evagreen, Ant, Reanimator, Merfolk and Dredge.
In the end I won 2x Tropical Island and was very happy^^. Oh and also I still think Steppe Lynx is better then Kird ape or Lion Loam. Even thought Steppe Lynx can be inconsistent I think Zoo need an explosive start to stay at the top. Also now that Ant and Reanimator is not that great of a deck anymore without MT I think people going to put in more hate against aggro decks.

[kiwi]

One question , With mystical tutor banned is time to remove Gaddocks and cannonist from our sideboards ?

[jandax]

No. If anything they should be moved main to make extra slots available for whatever shift this metagame is gonna take. I run 2 main, simply cuz they shut off EE/Chalice, Force, NO, Tendrils, Dread Return, etc etc.

[Brizentine Empire]

No. If anything they should be moved main to make extra slots available for whatever shift this metagame is gonna take. I run 2 main, simply cuz they shut off EE/Chalice, Force, NO, Tendrils, Dread Return, etc etc.

I agree with this, but it's definitely a Meta call. My meta used to be full of combo, ProBant, and Landstill, all of which don't like to see Teeg, but recently it shifted to alot of Doomsday-Emrakul and aggro, so I moved them to the board once again. However, I plan on playing 2 in the main at GP Columbus.

[Rizso]

I dont think its a good ideé to remove Gaddock Teeg from the 75 cards, think he is to useful not to be in the deck at all.

Deck might need more Jittes in its 75 now if aggro gets more populare or stoneforge mystic package with Collar and co.

I like Null Rod in the board, probly puting mine back in to my board. Hits alot of cards and the random artifact decks.

[Brizentine Empire]

I dont think its a good ideé to remove Gaddock Teeg from the 75 cards, think he is to useful not to be in the deck at all.

Deck might need more Jittes in its 75 now if aggro gets more populare or stoneforge mystic package with Collar and co.

I like Null Rod in the board, probly puting mine back in to my board. Hits alot of cards and the random artifact decks.

Which matchups are you intending to improve by using Null Rod?

[jandax]

Counter/Top? Stax? Someone being cute and playing vial affinity? Vial decks are already a good matchup...

[Rizso]

It shuts down all the artifact mana as well.

But been thinking that oblivion ring might be more worth more then Null Rod, as i think planeswalkers will find their way in to legacy now more then before. The walkers are probly controls best killing conditions now. Jace and Elspeth are annoying as hell.

[Nelis]

But been thinking that oblivion ring might be more worth more then Null Rod, as i think planeswalkers will find their way in to legacy now more then before. The walkers are probly controls best killing conditions now. Jace and Elspeth are annoying as hell.

Gaddock Teeg works vs Planeswalkers. Wouldn't put in SB cards just to combat Planeswalkers.

[jandax]

To expand upon that ^^ at 3CMC, Choke is far better yet far more focused than O-ring. IF a 'walker makes it in Legacy (i mean winds up as a staple in at least one deck, not is merely played), JTMS will be the first of the candidates. While O-ring does handle Jace quite well, paying 3 mana and skipping your turn is basically what you're doing. They have likely bounced a goyf or knight or anything threatening for that matter, and if they didn't you're either way ahead and they brainstormed to try and catch up or they have you pinned down and are Fatestealing you. So by playing that o-ring, you're surrendering time for card advantage. I like choke better because it hoses more problem decks and makes favorable matchups even better.

I can see Journey to Nowhere/temporal Isolation coming in, with lots of talk about more agro decks and different combo on the rise, you don't have to be cold to a Doomsday/Shelldock Isle'd Emrakul. That's all speculation though. Are planeswalkers really a threat, though? Maybe soon comes the day that Pithing Needles take up a fraction of the SB

[Brizentine Empire]

To expand upon that ^^ at 3CMC, Choke is far better yet far more focused than O-ring. IF a 'walker makes it in Legacy (i mean winds up as a staple in at least one deck, not is merely played), JTMS will be the first of the candidates. While O-ring does handle Jace quite well, paying 3 mana and skipping your turn is basically what you're doing. They have likely bounced a goyf or knight or anything threatening for that matter, and if they didn't you're either way ahead and they brainstormed to try and catch up or they have you pinned down and are Fatestealing you. So by playing that o-ring, you're surrendering time for card advantage. I like choke better because it hoses more problem decks and makes favorable matchups even better.

I can see Journey to Nowhere/temporal Isolation coming in, with lots of talk about more agro decks and different combo on the rise, you don't have to be cold to a Doomsday/Shelldock Isle'd Emrakul. That's all speculation though. Are planeswalkers really a threat, though? Maybe soon comes the day that Pithing Needles take up a fraction of the SB

I really don't think that planeswalkers should be a problem at all; JTMS and Ajani Vengeant are the ones I see most commonly, and although they can both provide an annoying sorcery-speed ability, one burn spell eliminates them (assuming Ajani Helixes and Jace Unsummons). I wholeheartedly agree on Choke though, as I believe it could definitely turn those blue matches into our favor (especially Landstill). And as far as the O-Ring/Journey/Isolation argument goes, I play Tariff. Although it requires us to Sacrifice a creature, it hits both Emrakul and Progenitus, and any non-white-naming-Iona creature in Reanimator. Plus, there's always the chance that we'd be able to pay for our creature anyways, so it seems amazing to me, at least.

[jandax]

That's a pretty good idea, Tariff. How many do you play?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Tariff isn't that great. It's good if they don't do the usual thing, which is Iona white.

And if they go Sphinx then they already have counter backup.

It is a fine card though!

[Brizentine Empire]

Tariff isn't that great. It's good if they don't do the usual thing, which is Iona white.

And if they go Sphinx then they already have counter backup.

It is a fine card though!

Indeed, Tariff is pretty underwhelming when they play Iona naming white, and the Sphinx statement is very true as well (unless you have a path+tariff hand). I suppose it isn't as useful in the Reanimator matchup, but I still board it in , and Tariff really shines against Progenitus and Show and Tell-Emrakul decks (both of which are very popular in my meta). I just REALLY hate losing to Progenitus, as I feel helpless once it hits the board. But, as was stated in the topic previous to Tariff, Gaddock Teeg also helps prevent Progenitus as well, which is why I play 2 in the main.

So, the question becomes, I suppose, what will the meta become now that the new B/R list is in effect? Show and Tell decks will probably see a little less play now that Mystical is gone, and who knows if Reanimator lists with Lim Dul's Vault/Intuition will be popular. I'm fairly sure most people would agree that Progenitus will still see alot of play, and that's still a good enough reason for me to play Tariff.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I agree that NOPro will come back. Teeg is already established to be good in those kind of metagames. I honestly haven't had any testing against Progenitus, and the few times I've had to play against one all I could do is race.

Tariff is good, but you have to know the meta just right to run it in the SB. That's just my two cents anyway.

Doomsday Shelldock is still good as my combo player friend informs me, but idk if combo players would win that way against Zoo anyway. Plus Tariff would kinda suck there anyway, I was just throwing that out there :wink:

[Brizentine Empire]

I agree that NOPro will come back. Teeg is already established to be good in those kind of metagames. I honestly haven't had any testing against Progenitus, and the few times I've had to play against one all I could do is race.

Tariff is good, but you have to know the meta just right to run it in the SB. That's just my two cents anyway.

Doomsday Shelldock is still good as my combo player friend informs me, but idk if combo players would win that way against Zoo anyway. Plus Tariff would kinda suck there anyway, I was just throwing that out there :wink:

Yeah, once Progenitus hits, our only option is to race, which can be difficult when they have a 10/10 pro-everything blocker the turn after he comes down, not to mention there's the possibility of counterbalance being on the board as well.

Also, Tariff definitely is a meta-game call; However, I use my sideboard to help in the matchups where I feel least confident, and Progenitus decks are one of them.

And yes, Tariff is terrible if Emrakul is actually cast off of a Shelldock Isle or Mosswort Bridge, but I was referring to the Show and Tell decks, where we have a turn to answer before we get Annihilated.

[Brizentine Empire]

Also, the new red Leyline that just got spoiled for m11 is interesting. It prevents your opponent from gaining life or preventing damage, which seems to be pretty good against Rhox War Monk and Zuran Orb. Thoughts?

[jandax]

Or Prog's protection-from-everything clause. Think of the leylines this way, when you have one turn 0, things are looking good. When you draw one or more, it's just depressing.

[Nidd]

What's everyone's take on Rhox War Monk? To me, it seems that this creature is bonkers against Zoo and has to be dealt with asap.
Fireblasting it looks horrible to me, as you basically 3-for-1 yourself and cripple your manabase beyond relief. PtE can help, sure, but it's only a 4-of and RWM-packing decks play FoW - at least G1.
Would it be worth to run Pyroblast/REB in the SB, maybe as a 2-3-of? It looks good not only against RWM, but also against stuff like Jace, or you could counter Counterbalance.

What's your take on this?

(I'm just a Bant player who'd like to know what to expect VS Zoo, so don't mind when I'm not too good informed about how you SB)

[jandax]

Yes, RWM is indeed a beast against Zoo. There's so many cards to deal with it, though, but to list a few common options:

RED/Pyroblast
Path
StP
Jitte counter+burn


I generally save my Path's for RWM in said matchup, as burn can handle lots of other things. I also shuffle my sideboard into my library, then take out 15. Watching people put two, three, six cards from their board into their deck gives you a reasonable guess as to what they are packing, where the 15 in and 15 out plan forces them to simply guess.

[Azel Orfat]

In M11 you have a great card against RWM:

Combustion 1R
Instant
Combustion cannot be countered by a spell or an ability
Combustion deals 5 damage to target white or blue creature. The damage can't be prevented.

Probably too specific and better for Sligh or Burn that can’t run STP or PTE, but anyway I think it should be considered.

[jandax]

It'd be great with a plan to beat 'em on the ground, but otherwise it definitely doesn't fill the spot of STP/PTE. Gonna be sick in limited, that's for sure.

[jazzykat]

I'm not the zoo guru but what is wrong with running 3 REBs in the board? They are 1 mana counter/counter spells and counter/kill not only RWM but JaceTM and whatever else.

[jandax]

There's nothing wrong wtih REB, it can be used to great ends.

[kooaznboi1088]

what do you guys think about Bloodbraid Elf?

[Laertes]

what do you guys think about Bloodbraid Elf?

Too expensive. He is the bees knees in standard, but he's too little too late in legacy. Try him out if you want. For one mana less you can get Reliquary or Burning Tree Shaman - that probably do just as much as Bloodbraid Elf. Standard manabases are 26-27 lands, not counting mana creatures, to make sure of 4 mana on turn 4 as much as possible. Legacy you are looking at a lot less lands, no mana dudes, and possibly facing early wastelands.

[jandax]

I'd like to chime in on how awesome Burning-Tree shaman is for Legacy Zoo. Certain matchups are turned around if you land this guy early in the game, I'm thinking mostly of Lands and CT.

[Brizentine Empire]

I'd like to chime in on how awesome Burning-Tree shaman is for Legacy Zoo. Certain matchups are turned around if you land this guy early in the game, I'm thinking mostly of Lands and CT.

What spot do you play him in? I would be interested in seeing your list, because I think that he's an interesting idea for Zoo.

[jandax]

I've toyed with him in my SB, it would replace a SFM/Jitte/Collar package, so three cards. My list is posted either on this page or the previous, but here it is again:

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
3 Lavamancer
3 KotR
2 Teeg

4 Bolt
4 Path
3 PoP
2 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
1 Library (can swap this for Dolem Gate to effect, as well)

11 Fetch
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Crypt
2 Grip
2 Choke
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 Basilisk collar


Again, BTS would replace the SFM package but my meta is seeing a rise in creature agro decks.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Burning Tree would most likely have to be run in the 3cc slot, which is owned by KOTR at the moment. Most people are afraid to cut the guy because he is that huge, but BTS can get through damage without attacking, especially in matchups where we need it.

I still find Counterbalance to be one hell of a bad matchup for Zoo, at least in my meta anyway.

[jandax]

Indeed, my sentiment exactly.

[snackfu]

How do you guys answer Bant? I went undefeated in a small local tournament beating Painter's Servant/Grindstone, and Enchantress of all things, but could not handle Bant in the slightest. A game one Rhox War Monk on Turn 2 was very difficult to deal with and had negated many attacks by the time I could PTE it. In game 2, He had a Spellstutter Sprite, Spell Snare, PTE, etc. etc. and 3 goyfs to my 0.

Specifically, what are your sideboard plans for this match up? I think we need to keep Teeg in and bring in a couple more as anti-EE measures. Add Pyroblast/REB? What do you take out?

[Brizentine Empire]

How do you guys answer Bant? I went undefeated in a small local tournament beating Painter's Servant/Grindstone, and Enchantress of all things, but could not handle Bant in the slightest. A game one Rhox War Monk on Turn 2 was very difficult to deal with and had negated many attacks by the time I could PTE it. In game 2, He had a Spellstutter Sprite, Spell Snare, PTE, etc. etc. and 3 goyfs to my 0.

Specifically, what are your sideboard plans for this match up? I think we need to keep Teeg in and bring in a couple more as anti-EE measures. Add Pyroblast/REB? What do you take out?

Countertop really isn't that bad; Zoo's strongest weapon is its speed, and we can provide way more pressure than CT can often handle. I never have to worry about a turn 2 RWM because I always burn the Heirarch turn 1 (or 2 on the play). Also, on the play, we can get a turn 2 Pridemage before counterbalance event hits the board. Daze and FoW don't really hurt us, as daze sets them back a turn and the card disadvantage of Force often kills them against Zoo.

And yes, REB/Pyroblast are great in the board as well, as they hit both RWM and Counterbalance. I will admit that the Bant decks running 8 swords effects hurts us alot, but I'm not entirely sure how big this strategy will become by the time of the GP.

[snackfu]

This version did not even run CB-Top. Hierarchs, Pridemages, RWM, Goyfs, Spellstutter Sprite, FoW, Swords, Brainstorm, Ponder. Out of the board he brought in PtE, Spell Pierce, and EE. I don't think I had the burn T1 to handle the Hierarch in game one.

My sideboard for the night was:

4 Mindbreak Trap (We have had a lot of Belcher, etc. running around)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre (Usually there is a Dredge deck as well, but not tonight)
2 Price of Progress (None in the main, but I am going to rethink this. Tonight it would have been golden and I often boarded them in)
2 Gaddock Teeg (Belcher and other combo)
2 Krosan Grip (Boarded these in a lot for Enchantress and Painter's/Grindstone)

I am thinking of dropping a crypt and moving the Prices main for 3 Pyroblast. I am currently running the SFM/Jitte/Collar Maindeck. I think I will drop that for the Prices and maybe add one Sylvan Library back in.

3 Steppe Lynx were good most of the night, but when I really needed them to be beefy, fetchlands were nowhere to be found. Figure of Destiny as a 2 of, perhaps. I am really torn. It is great to swing for four on turn 2, but it sucks when they become normal to paltry later on.

[jandax]

You can also try out Dolem Gate for funsies in lieu of Library. As good as Library is, getting your duders through is way more important than drawing/sifting cards. Sounds like a good plan to cut the SFM package for 3 REB's, you loose a great combo but shore up some major weaknesses.

[dmarley]

I've toyed with him in my SB, it would replace a SFM/Jitte/Collar package, so three cards.

Burning Tree Shamans in the side is interesting - the builds I've seen have Burning Tree Shamans in the main, sometimes with Knights in the side to bring in when Shaman is underwhelming. My problem with Shaman in the main has been how he is significantly weaker in the mirror than Knight. Against Counterbalance he seems to eat a Swords a lot of the time, although I guess if they are having to save Swords for him and letting the early drops get more beats in then he's already done his job. He seems best against Lands, but I'd suggest the fourth Price in the board before Shamans.


Burning Tree would most likely have to be run in the 3cc slot, which is owned by KOTR at the moment. Most people are afraid to cut the guy because he is that huge, but BTS can get through damage without attacking, especially in matchups where we need it.

I still find Counterbalance to be one hell of a bad matchup for Zoo, at least in my meta anyway.

Are you still running the same list you posting on 5/4 with three Grips? I try to fit a full set of Grips in the board if I can. I also think the more aggressive Lynx/Fireblast/PoP builds are a bit better positioned against Counterbalance, where they are more likely to stabilize in burn range. (At the cost of a weaker mirror match)

[jandax]

Yeah I agree that he's interesting, but he doesn't capitalize on his ability like KotR does. There is so much synergy wtih Kotr and the rest of the deck that the only reason I could forsee a swap is that I dirly want BTS to work. While I'm familiar with how the Lands deck plays, what is the best option for Zoo to beat it? To burn it out with PoP, aggressively fetching your own basics to prevent a wasteland lock, while throwing duders infront of their factories?

And I can attest to the Lynx/FB/Pop matchups for CbT, Lynx is an all-star. FB and PoP clean up nicely, but Lynx can easily get them to 10 by the time they have CB/T on the table. Then it is a few tight plays away from GG

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The Lands matchup is that MISERABLE, so you're assessment is right. The only way I've figured out how to win is PoP. Some builds even run a maindeck Zuran Orb that they can Intuition for. It's a real tough fight. If you expect ALOT of land, then try out some form of Blood Moon/Ravenous Trap in the SB.

Edit: And obviously PoP >.<

[jandax]

The Tabernacle's price is keepign the deck from being overly popular. And if the deck doesn't run at least one Tab, then it probably isn't worth playing. Grips are pretty sweet for Zuran orbs, I was just wondering how the matchup plays out with which, if any outs Zoo has against it. PoP it is then, I have three maindeck, but I can definitely find room for the 4th somewhere. PoP is nuts. Do they even have tech for Zoo? Or is it one of those cakewalk matchups they hope to play all day (like us vs. 'folk)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The Tabernacle's price is keepign the deck from being overly popular. And if the deck doesn't run at least one Tab, then it probably isn't worth playing. Grips are pretty sweet for Zuran orbs, I was just wondering how the matchup plays out with which, if any outs Zoo has against it. PoP it is then, I have three maindeck, but I can definitely find room for the 4th somewhere. PoP is nuts. Do they even have tech for Zoo? Or is it one of those cakewalk matchups they hope to play all day (like us vs. 'folk)

I think the best builds of Lands is the blue version with Tolarian West and Intuition. They can just go get Loam, Academy Ruins, and Zuran Orb, and you're pretty much fucked. Grip is worthless because of the recursion they have. For Zoo yeah it's pretty fucking insane for them even preboard.

[jandax]

Oh yeah, forgot about Ruins, disregard my previous comment.

[lordofthepit]

Obviously, there's been a lot of debate about the relative advantages of "Fast Zoo" (which leans more towards the Sligh end of the spectrum usually with some combination of Steppe Lynx, Fireblast, and Price of Progress) over conventional Zoo (which runs the some quantity of Kird Apes, Loam Lions, Figure of Destiny, Sylvan Library, Lightning Helix, and possibly a equipment package for Stoneforge Mystic).

Would you say it's fair to say that Fast Zoo is better against the likes of Lands.dec, Countertop, and combo, while conventional Zoo is better against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Bant Aggro strategies, and the mirror?

[Brizentine Empire]

Obviously, there's been a lot of debate about the relative advantages of "Fast Zoo" (which leans more towards the Sligh end of the spectrum usually with some combination of Steppe Lynx, Fireblast, and Price of Progress) over conventional Zoo (which runs the some quantity of Kird Apes, Loam Lions, Figure of Destiny, Sylvan Library, Lightning Helix, and possibly a equipment package for Stoneforge Mystic).

Would you say it's fair to say that Fast Zoo is better against the likes of Lands.dec, Countertop, and combo, while conventional Zoo is better against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Bant Aggro strategies, and the mirror?

I don't think this is an entirely fair question as I don't think there are two distinct Zoo builds, but in fact many different variations playing different numbers of the cards you mentioned above. For example, I play both Steppe Lynx and Fireblast along with Sylvan Library and Lightning Helix, so what would you consider to my deck to be? I just prefer the advantages of some cards over others; I think that, in many cases, the pressure that Steppe Lynx puts on aggro decks can be a gamebreaker, and performs fantastically against both Merfolk and Golbins. I also like Library as it adds consistency to an otherwise explosive deck, giving me a better middle/late game after my Lynxes and Nacatls have done damage.

What I will agree with, though, is that any SFM/equipment packages do help in the mirror, which is something that makes me a bit uneasy at times.

[Brizentine Empire]

I think the best builds of Lands is the blue version with Tolarian West and Intuition. They can just go get Loam, Academy Ruins, and Zuran Orb, and you're pretty much fucked. Grip is worthless because of the recursion they have. For Zoo yeah it's pretty fucking insane for them even preboard.

Grip isn't useless; a Grip on their Orb at their endstep with a PoP in hand is an amazing play, as it prevents them from gaining life before the Price.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Grip isn't useless; a Grip on their Orb at their endstep with a PoP in hand is an amazing play, as it prevents them from gaining life before the Price.

I'd bet you what little money I have that you will more than likely never encounter this situation. Bring in something better than Grip, that is my whole point.

[jandax]

Wheel of Sun and Moon?

[Curby]

Steve Menendian wrote (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/19216_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Eldrazi_in_Eternal_A_Legacy_Set_Review.html) "Loam Lion is just better than Kird Ape, but the results haven’t borne that out – yet." I'm wondering why the Lion is "just better."

Does blue use sufficient blue blasts that they start aiming them at Kird Apes of all things? If the cards were both red and one simply said "cannot be the target of blue elemental blast and hydroblast" then I'd understand. However, the fact that the Lion is white also has downsides.

A deck that's primarily red can tailor its manabase to support that, especially if it also packs Fireblast. Red creatures can piggyback off that foundation and be more easily cast, whereas you're slightly more likely to hold a Lion without the white source to cast it. The chances are small, but so are the chances of your 2/3 getting color-hosed when it's often branded as the worst card in the deck anyway.

So I'm probably missing something, unless Steve thinks that the blue blasts or other red-hate are a huge deal. Any ideas?

[lordofthepit]

Steve Menendian wrote (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/19216_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Eldrazi_in_Eternal_A_Legacy_Set_Review.html) "Loam Lion is just better than Kird Ape, but the results haven’t borne that out – yet." I'm wondering why the Lion is "just better."

Does blue use sufficient blue blasts that they start aiming them at Kird Apes of all things? If the cards were both red and one simply said "cannot be the target of blue elemental blast and hydroblast" then I'd understand. However, the fact that the Lion is white also has downsides.

A deck that's primarily red can tailor its manabase to support that, especially if it also packs Fireblast. Red creatures can piggyback off that foundation and be more easily cast, whereas you're slightly more likely to hold a Lion without the white source to cast it. The chances are small, but so are the chances of your 2/3 getting color-hosed when it's often branded as the worst card in the deck anyway.

So I'm probably missing something, unless Steve thinks that the blue blasts or other red-hate are a huge deal. Any ideas?

I think it's protection from red more so than blue blasts. No one would ever blue blast an Ape unless desparate, but you'll see your Burreton Forge Tenders and Rule of Laws from time to time.

[jandax]

@kirbysdl

I think that his evaluation of those two cards are a distillation of the format in whole, where the only real difference is that Apes get destroyed with more cards than Lions (BE/Hydroblast) That's the only logic I can put to it. He's a super analytical player, so maybe it's a legitimate claim to him.

[Curby]

So I'm probably missing something


Burreton Forge Tenders and Rule of Laws

I thought that was the more likely explanation, so I put it first. None of these are big deals, but in total I can see why you'd prefer something else. =)

Now my question is why people don't use Lion more. There aren't THAT many Fireblasts in typical Zoo lists.

[Brizentine Empire]

I'd bet you what little money I have that you will more than likely never encounter this situation. Bring in something better than Grip, that is my whole point.

I've actually done this twice and won both games because of this play. I won't dispute the fact that Krosan Grip isn't a great card in the matchup, but it's still playable.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've actually done this twice and won both games because of this play. I won't dispute the fact that Krosan Grip isn't a great card in the matchup, but it's still playable.

You also got lucky to get to 3 land as well. I'm surprised to be honest. Port and Waste fucks up everything.

[jandax]

Is it possible, or even correct, to play to a draw instead of to win against Lands? You know, milking a shuffle, tanking for an extra 5 seconds, being all around an unsociably slow player but not enough for a penalty... Unwinnable matchups are out there, but can they be played out for the draw?

[keys]

Now my question is why people don't use Lion more. There aren't THAT many Fireblasts in typical Zoo lists.

My take is that turn 1 Taiga is preferable to turn 1 Savannah.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

My take is that turn 1 Taiga is preferable to turn 1 Savannah.

I've never fetched anything other than Taiga turn one.

+1

[Brizentine Empire]

I've never fetched anything other than Taiga turn one.

+1

I fetch out a turn 1 Plateau all the time in order to play Steppe Lynx. I don't really see why it would have to be turn 1 Taiga or Savannah... You can always get the green mana on turn 2. I also play Fireblast though, so it plays into that as well.

[Hanni]

There's lots of love for the Zoo thread, but the Sligh thread has been completely dead for so long. Kinda makes me sad, especially since I worked so hard on evolving Goyf Sligh into the monstrous Cat Sligh. Anyway, I just figured I'd post my super aggressive Zoo list that I always enjoy bashing people with on MWS:

R/w/g Naya (Cat) Sligh/Zoo

Lands (18)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Burst Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Path to Exile
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus

[jandax]

Ever play that list live? I'm just wondering if 18 land is enough

[Hanni]

The curve is so rediculously low that it works. 27 1cc spells if you count the Rift Bolts, only 11 2cc spells, and the 4 Fireblasts.

You really don't ever want to see more than 3 lands, and can often function off of 1 if you get stuck. The beauty of such a low curve and land count, aside from the obvious increase in speed, is that you often have more gas and less land floods.

The deck is a glass cannon, though. Losing cards like Qasali Pridemage can hurt sometimes, but the deck goldfishes at least a full turn faster than a typical Zoo list. There's alot of advantages to having a significantly faster clock.

[jandax]

There's a few glass cannon decks out there, and I happen to like glass cannons. Makes life fun, for you not them really.

Pretty interesting list.

[Neuad]

There's lots of love for the Zoo thread, but the Sligh thread has been completely dead for so long. Kinda makes me sad, especially since I worked so hard on evolving Goyf Sligh into the monstrous Cat Sligh. Anyway, I just figured I'd post my super aggressive Zoo list that I always enjoy bashing people with on MWS:

R/w/g Naya (Cat) Sligh/Zoo

Lands (18)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Burst Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Path to Exile
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus



I actually really like the looks of this build, thanks for sharing <3

[Hanni]

I actually really like the looks of this build, thanks for sharing <3

np... I though I was gonna get hated out of the Zoo thread because I posted a Sligh list, but I'm glad you guys likey. I've been playing pretty much that exact list (with only a few subtle changes) for a really long time, so there isn't really any new tech in it or anything.

[overpowered]

Actually, to counter Menendian's argument of Loam Lion vs Kird Ape, I'd say that Ape is better against blood moon effects which tend to be much more popular than Forge Tenders. On the down side, he helps justify the use of CoP:Red, where the lion doesn't.

Steve might consider a mostly green/white version running little red. The use of the ape does however, add less "color consistency" to the deck, but that is considered a weapon when Iona can be across the table on occasion as well, and more often than not, they'll name white.

To sum it up, Kird Ape seems to have a slight advantage over Loam Lion.

[kiwi]

Another important advantadge of lion over kird ape is that lion is white and the lion cant be target of blue elemental blast.

[CephalidBreakfast]

Is it possible, or even correct, to play to a draw instead of to win against Lands? You know, milking a shuffle, tanking for an extra 5 seconds, being all around an unsociably slow player but not enough for a penalty... Unwinnable matchups are out there, but can they be played out for the draw?

This is cheating, even if you "avoid a penalty." It doesn't even lie in a gray area; It's just cheating.

[dunk]

There's lots of love for the Zoo thread, but the Sligh thread has been completely dead for so long. Kinda makes me sad, especially since I worked so hard on evolving Goyf Sligh into the monstrous Cat Sligh. Anyway, I just figured I'd post my super aggressive Zoo list that I always enjoy bashing people with on MWS:

R/w/g Naya (Cat) Sligh/Zoo

Lands (18)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Burst Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Path to Exile
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus



So dude, tell me what makes that list better than a regular burn deck. Sure, in vacuum it's a turn faster which seems nice, but in a real game of magic your opponent now has real targets for his removal ( as in, creatures that don't vanish anyway but would do 2 damage at least ) and you open yourself in just losing to a random stifle. With such a low landcount you will also often get ( and get to keep ) 1 land hands which makes the lynx worse.

I like the idea of sligh zoo a lot, but I don't see how this list works well.

[Hanni]

What makes the deck better than a regular burn deck is that it has a goldfish that is an entire turn faster.

Most decks run 4 removal spells maindeck, that they aren't guarunteed to have during the first few turns of the game. Playing 2 creatures early can also circumvent removal. Even if Nacatl only gets 1 swing for 3 damage, he's still a Lightning Bolt.

Typically, the only matchups which run more than 4 removal spells maindeck, usually tend to fall prey to a regular burn plan. Most control decks fit the bill here. The mirror matchup (Zoo) is the other matchup that runs enough removal to matter.

Against most control decks, this deck can easily race alot of sideboard options they have (lifegain). If they resolve CounterTop in time, that can cause fits, but not all control decks run CounterTop, and not all decks that do can assemble it before they die to the incredibly fast goldfish.

Against the mirror, I run enough removal to keep them off of guys just as easily as they can keep me off of guys, so the matchup is fairly draw dependant. I run more business because I operate off of a lower curve and run less lands, so I have a slight (card advantage) edge in that regard. I'm also running the 12 most efficient creatures possible for their damage to cost ratio, whereas Zoo runs less aggressive guys with Kird Ape/Loam Lion.

I agree that Stifle can cause this deck some problems, due to its heavy fetchland count. Luckily, Canadian Threshold has been seeing less play lately, as that was really the worst of the tempo decks against Sligh. New Horizons plays a much slower gameplan and has much less removal, which gives Sligh plenty of time to recover and end it.

I can see being skeptical of the list, and not seeing how it works, but it does work pretty well. Like I said, the deck becomes much more of a glass cannon, but the trade off of versatility (like Qasali Pridemage) for a much more aggressive gameplan that is less dependant on creatures, opting to run a heavy burn count, has its advantages. It can sometimes be easy to hate out an aggro deck, and cards like Moat don't stunt a burn heavy list nearly as bad as a traditional Zoo deck (when it doesn't draw Qasali), for example. I'm not saying this deck is better than your average Zoo deck, but it has its niche.

[Neuad]

Rancor + Berserk in Zoo.


Turn 1 > Land > Steppe Link

Turn 2 > Fetch > Rancor = 4

Turn 2 > Fetch > Crack Both Fetches > Berserk = 16

Have a burn spell in your hand and its GG if nothing gets countered. And thats only perfect situation.

Rancor and Berserk are still great spells that really help zoo out. Will post my friends list when I find it.

[jandax]

While drawing one of those late game still isn't a total bust, what would be coming out to make room for those cards? It seems that burn is just a better source of damage, because it is also removal and a valuable weapon against many matchups. Even without Rancor-Berserk, I've ended the game on turn three before thanks to burn. The opening hand was Lynx, 2 fetch, Pridemage, 3 Bolts, and I drew into a fetch then a bolt after 2 shuffles. Lucksacked it, I know, but if the deck wasn't already super consistend it would never happen

[Media314r8]

Is it possible, or even correct, to play to a draw instead of to win against Lands? You know, milking a shuffle, tanking for an extra 5 seconds, being all around an unsociably slow player but not enough for a penalty... Unwinnable matchups are out there, but can they be played out for the draw?

It's not by any means an unwinnable matchup (depending on your list/sb). I played a list with 4 KotR and 4 wastes (2 bujuka bogs in the sb) and won two matches against lands in our last local tourney, one match 2-0, (against, of all people, steven menendian) and the other 2-1. (scooped early game one to take games 2 and 3 after he manabonds, zuran orb, endstep lands in, loam in the bin.) Against Steven, A nacatl, goyf, goyf draw got there with a well timed wasteland. Game two we both sit under blood moon until he finds his basic forest and K grips it, but he also unlocked my three wastelands on board, I triple waste his factories with the remaining one allready in the bin and play a bog out of my hand. He can't find enough lands in the rest of his deck to flame jab me out of the game as I soar to 26 off of two lightning helixes. He decked. The second lands player I played didn't hold open his ghost quarters games 2 and 3 and I dropped a blood moon with my basic forest and plains in play while he had no basic forest or mox diamond.

[Neuad]

While drawing one of those late game still isn't a total bust, what would be coming out to make room for those cards? It seems that burn is just a better source of damage, because it is also removal and a valuable weapon against many matchups. Even without Rancor-Berserk, I've ended the game on turn three before thanks to burn. The opening hand was Lynx, 2 fetch, Pridemage, 3 Bolts, and I drew into a fetch then a bolt after 2 shuffles. Lucksacked it, I know, but if the deck wasn't already super consistend it would never happen

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [ROE] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ROE] Mountain (1)
1 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells
2 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [V09] Berserk
4 [UL] Rancor

is the build I've been playing around with on MWS. I don't know how much I like it, and I don't know much about zoo but its fun.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The problem with "pump" effects is that they open you up to 2for1s way too easily. They end the game quicker, but you just have to watch out how you use them. It's really a player choice on Rancor/Reckless Charge/Berserk effects.

[Curby]

Total agreement. You add on the phenomenon of confirmation bias, and it's not surprising how supporters more often remember the epic 30-pt trampling attacks than the devastating 3-for-1 routs caused by opposing removal.

There's a place for pumpers in Sligh or Berserk stompy, which deprioritize resilience and endurance for more devastating early power. However, for those that like a more measured but persistent level of pressure, Zoo fits the bill, and pumpers don't jive with the core goals and philosophies of Zoo. For those that want to blur the lines, I can see the appeal of trying them in Zoo.

P.S. If you're considering pumpers, Bonesplitter's pretty efficient as far as equipment goes.

[Neuad]

unless I'm misreading the card, if you rancor something and they remove the nacatl, the rancor goes into your hand, not GY.

[Curby]

If you attempt to Rancor something, and they remove Rancor's target in response then you lose both.

Btw, what happens to Rancor on Goyf when Goyf gets Flickerwisped? E.g. does Goyf return with the Rancor still on it?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

If you attempt to Rancor something, and they remove Rancor's target in response then you lose both.

Btw, what happens to Rancor on Goyf when Goyf gets Flickerwisped? E.g. does Goyf return with the Rancor still on it?

No, Rancor will just go to the GY and right back into your hand.

[Fuzzy]

No, Rancor will just go to the GY and right back into your hand.

Nop, it's countered because there's no valid targets. Rancor go to Yard and stays there.

[Neuad]

So what about my list

-2 Berserk
-4 Rancor

+4 Lightning Helix
+2 Knights of The Reliquary

?

[Curby]

Teacup was replying to me. Fuzzy, I think you meant to reply to Neuad. Neuad, wouldn't Rancor be better than Berserk? It least you have the chance to play it multiple times, and without other pump you really can't abuse Berserk very effectively.

[Neuad]

Teacup was replying to me. Fuzzy, I think you meant to reply to Neuad. Neuad, wouldn't Rancor be better than Berserk? It least you have the chance to play it multiple times, and without other pump you really can't abuse Berserk very effectively.

Yeah I was thinking about that as I played a bit and you're right.

2x Rancor would be alot better then 2x Berserk without the Rancor pump.

[jandax]

I think Berserk is better for Zoo than rancor because it is instant speed, and if they were going to kill the critter anyways then it's no big worry. But in general, the points made by LB/kirbysdl are accurate.


@Media: Care to post a list? 4 wastes and 2 bogs? I mean I know Zoo can be tuned to stand up to Lands, especially if a developed scene hasn't hated the deck out. I'm just curious as my own list has PoP to combat lands, and that's about it.

[Media314r8]

@Media: Care to post a list? 4 wastes and 2 bogs? I mean I know Zoo can be tuned to stand up to Lands, especially if a developed scene hasn't hated the deck out. I'm just curious as my own list has PoP to combat lands, and that's about it.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PT] Mountain (1)
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
1 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon

I may change the 3 sb blood moons to jotun grunts, as they splash damage lands while still annoying other GY-reliant decks. (re-using watses/canopys is also clutch, in addition to getting basics back in the deck against lands' ghost quarters)

IMHO, PoP just isnt that good against lands after g1, as most all alnds players run some number of zuran orbs and glacial chasms (both tutorable w/ tolaria west) sb or (!!!) main. Good lands players will gain life as they go to avoid a k grip on orb w/ 10 non-basics out. Pop will go a fair distance to winning G1, but something like ruination/armageddon+ exile GY effect or grunt+ another hate effect is needed to take the W.

[lordofthepit]

From Matt Elias' new article at http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19732_The_Long_Winding_Road_Rantings_on_Chapin_and_the_Hive_Mind.html


People want to sit down and ask, “Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx?” The answer is “yes.” The question is contextual. Until you understand that, you’re playing the game but not getting the game. I wouldn’t have won that Legacy Open without Steppe Lynx, but right now, you probably don’t want to play that card.

Obviously, a lot of people don't like Lynx for various reasons, but what specific difference in the metagame today is he referring to which makes this an undesirable inclusion?

[Enfex]

I've played Zoo for a while in my local meta and have done pretty good. That was, however, untill recently when 5 persons in my meta (out of 15) switched to a weird combo deck that I've never seen before. The deck is a storm kind of combo deck that uses Nefarious Lich combined with lifegain to draw a bunch of cards and then go off. I can't seem to win against this deck and I have a 0-5 record against it. I don't know if it's a rogue deck or not, but perhaps you can help me anyway? Should I just switch deck or do you know any good sb cards I can use against it?

[Rizso]

With m11 arrived i want to use the sword of Vengeance with my stoneforge mystic package giving trample to a guy is worth alot.

[Curby]

Switch. Some decks are just not as good at handling combo. It's not that it's an autoloss, but why bring a knife to a gun fight? Using what you've got involves the entirety of Legacy, not just one archetype. If more than a third of the meta (assuming some folks are playing other combo decks) are playing combo, then adjust your strategy to defeat that meta.

EDIT: How much is Trample worth? 6 mana (i.e. two full turns worth of mana)? Again, Rancor's there if you want it. It'll be interesting to see what works better.

[lordofthepit]

With m11 arrived i want to use the sword of Vengeance with my stoneforge mystic package giving trample to a guy is worth alot.

I'll be sure to test it out, but I don't think it's any better than our existing options.

Against aggro, you'd prefer Jitte or Collar because they're capable of removing creatures and gaining life without the huge tempo sink. The Sword of Vengeance first strike, vigilance, +2/+0, and trample certainly help during combat if it sticks and you're not already in striking distance.

Against control, I don't think Sword of Vengeance helps you race any better than Jitte can. You'd also prefer Sword of Fire/Ice or Light/Shadow for its protection ability and cheaper equipment cost.

[Media314r8]

I've played Zoo for a while in my local meta and have done pretty good. That was, however, untill recently when 5 persons in my meta (out of 15) switched to a weird combo deck that I've never seen before. The deck is a storm kind of combo deck that uses Nefarious Lich combined with lifegain to draw a bunch of cards and then go off. I can't seem to win against this deck and I have a 0-5 record against it. I don't know if it's a rogue deck or not, but perhaps you can help me anyway? Should I just switch deck or do you know any good sb cards I can use against it?

Don't feed the troll. Who let Cavius back in here?

Sword of vengeance would teeter on playable if the equip cost was 2. At six mana, a single removal spell double-time walk's you. It doesn't even have to be instant speed, as they can just eat the damage, chain lightning it (as it gains no toughness, nor does it get akroma's prot R/B.) The next series of swords in Scars may be worth including if they're as powerful as SOLS and SOFI. IMHO collar at 3 total play+equip is better than vengeance, with the added bonus of making your (everything) trade with goyf at a gain, and the prospect of a deathtouch, lifelink lavamancer.

[Fuzzy]

With m11 arrived i want to use the sword of Vengeance with my stoneforge mystic package giving trample to a guy is worth alot.

Sorry, but why not play Behemoth Sledge instead?

[diffy]

I played an experimental Zoo list with Survival of the Fittest to a third-place finish (5-1 record) at last Sunday's Hassloch Legacy Event (48 players). Report and some notes on how the Tech worked out here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18282-[Report]-Team-SPOD-July-Hassloch-Legacy-Event-aka-Back-in-Business).

[DCTopTeam]

Will test on a perhaps very radical build which uses Kiln Fiend, Rancor and Collosal Might. Will post results.

[Valtrix]

I may change the 3 sb blood moons to jotun grunts, as they splash damage lands while still annoying other GY-reliant decks. (re-using watses/canopys is also clutch, in addition to getting basics back in the deck against lands' ghost quarters

I think Magus of the moon is the best option against lands, and is actually very useful in a lot of other matchups. Particularly, it's useful versus NO-progenitus builds of countertop as they tend to only run 1 forest, thus cutting them off GG if you kill the hierarches too. In addition, you can bring it in versus control to sometimes catch their mana off-guard and turn off man-lands and ruins. While blood moon is better in those other matchups, the magus is better versus lands particularly, because they have much fewer outs to him versus blood moon.

[Rizso]

Sorry, but why not play Behemoth Sledge instead?

It doesnt just give trample, it gives haste, First Strike and Vigilance as well as pumping the creatures power.

[Media314r8]

I think Magus of the moon is the best option against lands, and is actually very useful in a lot of other matchups. Particularly, it's useful versus NO-progenitus builds of countertop as they tend to only run 1 forest, thus cutting them off GG if you kill the hierarches too. In addition, you can bring it in versus control to sometimes catch their mana off-guard and turn off man-lands and ruins. While blood moon is better in those other matchups, the magus is better versus lands particularly, because they have much fewer outs to him versus blood moon.

I play flame jab in my lands deck, as does menendian, and I would assume, most lands players at the gp, where zoo and goblins will be played heavily. (each of which are, conventional wisdom says, more likely to want a grey-ogre form of hate than an enchantment) It can be dredged in the bin and cast, while K grip requires both their basic forest/mox and it to be manually drawn. Against other decks, the worst thing to ever to hear in response to cating magus is "in response, float W." In goblins, (or any deck playing vial for that matter,) I would say magus is the pick, as Bant/NOProg don't usually float white in response to matrons being vialed in, so having vial's ability resolve and their lands all suddenly don't tap for swords mana better protects magus.

Again, I may yet cut the moon effects for grunts, as they do well against more than just lands, which will undoubtedly be at the top tables, but not as heavily played as say, other zoo decks or endless horizons, which grunt does something against.

[Media314r8]

It doesnt just give trample, it gives haste, First Strike and Vigilance as well as pumping the creatures power.

...because you will be casting a relevant creature before you tap three lands to equip sword. Can we please end this debate? Loxodon warhammer and sledge are probably better at both racing opposing aggro, and against storm based combo than sword, and they hardly warrrent discussion because of their equip costs.

[keys]

I'd like some critique of my list going into tournaments the next couple weekends.

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny - Still think this guy is underrated on the source. He should fit in the curve since I'm not packing maindeck equipment, and will help out in the mirror.
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Woolly Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary - Undecided here. I've always been a fan of Thoctar because he can swing right away for 5 even if my graveyard is land light. I don't have many other cards to abuse Knight, although I recognize how beastly he can become.

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix - I expect to see a lot of Zoo mirror, so I think this is better than Fireblast.
2 Price of Progress - I also expect 43Lands to show up, as well as decent amount of control. 2 feels like the right amount maindeck.

2 Sylvan Library - Good against control and the mirror.

4 Wooded Foothills - Pretty typical manabase.
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg - Against control and the possibility of combo.
2 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon - Since Reanimator is no longer fotm, I cut Faerie Macabre. I think 4 graveyard hate should be enough.
1 Stoneforge Mystic - My aggro equipment set.
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basalisk Collar

Any comments?

[Curby]

Knights works well with Horizon Canopy, and can reset your topdeck after you use Library. I also like the otherwise random ability to sweep the yard with Bojuka Bog, though I'm not sure if I'd actually sideboard a Bog just for that. It's certainly a cute trick.

Another problem with Thoctar is the three colored mana symbols.

I've been thinking that Figure deserves a little more love too, though I certainly understand how horrible the math looks in a vacuum. In the context of a deck though, who knows. Please let us know how he performs for you.

Re: Canopy, is anyone NOT using them? Some have opined that they should not be used since they don't help Apes, Nacatls, etc. Since Knight is increasingly becoming the preferred three-drop though, the synergy there could overshadow such downsides.

[keys]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: one of the biggest reasons Figure is so good is that he gets past Rhox War Monk, Wild Nacatl, opposing Apes/Lions, 3/4 Goyfs, etc. as long as you have 3 mana open. You don't have to pump unless they block. The 2 damage goes through and you can continue to play out your curve as you would normally.

Of course he's still a Pouncing Jaguar in the early turns... but later on he's a real threat unlike Ape/Lion, which more than makes up for it.

That said, you don't often want to see multiples, so I wouldn't recommend 4.

[Valtrix]

I completely agree on figure. I've been running him for a long time as a 1-of instead of the 4th kird ape, and am never not happy to see him. His ability to get large is way more relevant than in that draw his mana-intensity would matter. I would never remove him and may consider a 2nd sometime, but for now I'm happy with 1.

[Rizso]

Knights works well with Horizon Canopy, and can reset your topdeck after you use Library. I also like the otherwise random ability to sweep the yard with Bojuka Bog, though I'm not sure if I'd actually sideboard a Bog just for that. It's certainly a cute trick.

Another problem with Thoctar is the three colored mana symbols.

I've been thinking that Figure deserves a little more love too, though I certainly understand how horrible the math looks in a vacuum. In the context of a deck though, who knows. Please let us know how he performs for you.

Re: Canopy, is anyone NOT using them? Some have opined that they should not be used since they don't help Apes, Nacatls, etc. Since Knight is increasingly becoming the preferred three-drop though, the synergy there could overshadow such downsides.

I dont not play the canopy, I do play 12 fetches with 4 lynxes, 2 knights and 2 sylvans. The knights have doing awesome for me same with the Lynxes and Sylvan, A resolved Sylvan has won pretty much every none-combo matchup i have played. Draws extra cards and filter the draws without any extra mana investment

I have played with the Figure of Destiny before and i found him doing great, playing a stoneforge mystic package atm with jitte, SOFI and SOLS and a collar and a jitte in the board. Probly going to play with figure some more in the future.

[lordofthepit]

I've been playing around with my flex spots recently (where most people would play Apes/Lions/FoDs). I've been putting in cards that I wouldn't mind drawing a single copy of, but wouldn't want to see multiple copies either--stuff like Sylvan Library, Fireblast, etc.

I have an idea that seems really weak on paper at first, and I wouldn't be surprised if I get laughed out of this thread for suggesting it. That being said, here it is: Quirion Ranger

The reason why I think it would be useful is that if it lands, you can ensure that you don't get blown out by Wasteland or Rishadan Port. It also has synergy with Steppe Lynx, Grim Lavamancer, and Knight of the Reliquary, and if nothing else, gives one of your creatures pseudo-vigilance. It's also handy if you're mana screwed and need to generate extra mana in a pinch.

Obviously, none of these effects are gamebreaking or even impressive on their own. But might the benefit of smoothing out these occasional problems worth swapping out a single copy of one of those (pretty lame) 2/3s for a 1/1?

[Oceanus]

I'm pretty new to Zoo but I've been thinking of running a set of Living Wishes in my Sylvan Library slot and dropping 1 Fireblast. I was going to put some mix of Gaddock Teeg, Faerie Macabre, Ethersworn Canonist, Kitchen Finks, Quasali Pridemage, Bojuka Bog and Maze of Ith in the board. Tell me what you think, I'm sure it's at the cost of effeciency and possibly a bad idea overall.

[jandax]

Pridemages should be maindecked, unless you're going about a metagame specific build. Kitchen finks just aren't what the deck needs for 3 mana, Maze of Ith too, unless agian, it's a metagame call.

[Oceanus]

Pridemages should be maindecked, unless you're going about a metagame specific build. Kitchen finks just aren't what the deck needs for 3 mana, Maze of Ith too, unless agian, it's a metagame call.

I'm planning on maindecking 3 Pridemages and sb 1 for the wish. Yeah, Kitchen Finks I'm not too sure about either. Maze of Ith is definately a metagame call. Right now I'm more concerned with the question if Living Wish is a viable option, at all. I've seen some builds running Survival of the Fittest recently, but I'd rather have a toolbox that won't affect the MD as much.

[jandax]

A deck's consistency might be more valuable than a toolbox. I eschewed my SFM toolbox for 3 REB's

You might as well run a Jitte instead of Wish, because that's 2 mana plus whatever spell you fetch to cast. Might as well have an immediate impact on the board

[Curby]

I too have been wondering about increasing the trickiness of the deck while minimizing the impact on its consistency and overall speed. The first option is to up Knight to three and have one each Karakas and Bojuka sideboarded. The other idea was to take out Library and add Fauna Shaman in its place. You're actually increasing threat density while adding the ability to field all of your Goyfs and Knights if you're behind on the field, or find Pridemages if you need removal. The problem is that you can't dig for burn if you need a direct solution, but then Library can only look three deep.

[keys]

A deck's consistency might be more valuable than a toolbox. I eschewed my SFM toolbox for 3 REB's



Are you SBing anything against the mirror/aggro?

[jandax]

Lynxs are great for those matchups. The mirror is so uncommon, and other agro matchups are assisted by removal that I wouldn't change anything in my 75 unless people pick up other decks en mass.

[from Cairo]

Lynxs are great for those matchups. The mirror is so uncommon, and other agro matchups are assisted by removal that I wouldn't change anything in my 75 unless people pick up other decks en mass.

Lynx is great against agro matches?

Where it dies to: a Lavamancer activation, a single Jitte counter, Gempalm w/ 1 Gob on board, and any traditionally used removal (Bolts, Plows, Paths). I'll admit Loam Lion and Kird Ape aren't astronomically better, but Lynx is at it's worst versus agro, your reply didn't make much sense.

I guess if you're just saying that you're the only agro deck in your meta, than I can see your logic in running Lynx and not devoting SB space to agro matches. In an unknown/diverse meta I don't think that's the best plan.

[jandax]

Lynx puts you as the aggressor from the start. All your creatures die to some common form of removal, so getting in there for 4 or 5 before they do is great. Obv they get worse on the draw but the principle is to fight fire with bigger fire. That's just me, though. No one I ever faced was like "Yay! Turn 1 Lynx!" Litterally. That is sort of suspicious...

[Nelis]

You're actually increasing threat density while adding the ability to field all of your Goyfs and Knights if you're behind on the field, or find Pridemages if you need removal.

Should you not call it threat quality (or something)? I mean you have to discard a creature, to get another creature.

And have you tested Fauna Shaman? Because you cant use the mana for other things like burning a creature or whatever i wonder if it wouldn't actually be bad for consistency.

@Jandax I see that you're from Utrecht and I know that Zoo isn't that popular in Holland. But in most metagames it is.
Nobody is happy about a turn 1 Nacatl either so thats not really an issue. A topdecked Lynx is terrible and lynx builds do not win from the non lynx builds.