[Deck] Zoo [Archive] - Page 13

ivanpei

10-05-2010, 04:36 AM

Immature trolling is immature. :) Have a nice day sir.

On a serious note. Zoo is tempo. Zoo is not sligh. Recent printings have given zoo plenty of very mana efficient threats that allows it to dominate even in the mid game. In the testing I've done, I could match even new horizon's monsters in the mid/late game. Having the most efficient threats from 1-3 cc in the game is a form of tempo. Daze is not tempo, you are put back a turn by playing daze (you almost never want to daze T1). Stifle is situational tempo, which requires keeping mana open and can result in egg all over your face if the opponent plays a non-fetch.

Turn one kitty on the other hand, is always tempo. Goyf turn 2 is always awesome. Especially if you are staring at puny creatures on the other side of the table. Wasteland delays their big drops while you pound their punies into dust. Zoo always has the biggest dudes in the 1-3 cc region. You want to prolong the early game as much as possible with wasteland. I'd happily be stuck at 2 mana with my opponent while my tarmogoyfs and kitties pound the opponent's face in. Mana screwing them is just icing.

jandax

10-05-2010, 05:13 AM

He was being sarcastic. The last page he suggested Troop just play Bant, feeling that all these big tempo cards are ruining Zoos consistency and aim.

troopatroop

10-05-2010, 10:17 PM

Grim is a large reason why our merfolk matchup is as favorable as it is, and without grim our goblins matchup is actually not very good. Goblins is no longer the walk it used to be, and if we take out our best cards against them we're asking to lose to them, especially since it seems like they're on the upswing right now.

I personally don't think a deck with 4 Wild Nacatl, 4 Noble Hierarch, 4 Tarmogoyf, and 12 1cc removal spells has an unfavorable Goblins or Merfolk matchup. STP over Path actually seems really good against Goblins, and Terravore and Knight are huge in both matchups. I think we should consider having a seperate thread for Big Zoo. Like everyone said, it's a pretty different strategy, and could cause confusion.

CorpT

10-06-2010, 12:22 AM

I personally don't think a deck with 4 Wild Nacatl, 4 Noble Hierarch, 4 Tarmogoyf, and 12 1cc removal spells has an unfavorable Goblins or Merfolk matchup. STP over Path actually seems really good against Goblins, and Terravore and Knight are huge in both matchups. I think we should consider having a seperate thread for Big Zoo. Like everyone said, it's a pretty different strategy, and could cause confusion.

You'd be wrong. Maybe not about Merfolk, but Goblins is a lot tougher than you're giving it credit for.

If you want a separate thread for Big Zoo, you can create a thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?25-New-and-Developmental-Decks).

Bongo

10-06-2010, 06:22 AM

Quick question: Is there a recent primer on Zoo? Preferrably not a rundown like "Nacatl, beats for 3, play four", but something that explains the different variations (Little Zoo, Big Zoo, Tribal Zoo) and their advantages/disadvantages. Sideboard guides and burn suite explanation would also be nice.

jandax

10-06-2010, 11:46 AM

Recent? no.

Your best bet is to just read back over the last 40 pages. Therein lies the Ape/Lion/Lynx arguement (beaten to hell), Big vs Lil zoo, sligh zoo, and a few tournament reports for good measure. It's obviously not as condensed as a primer, but the same information is avialable.

Stay away from Tribal zoo, playing Bob is fun but one wasteland will wreck your day.

troopatroop

10-06-2010, 01:18 PM

You'd be wrong. Maybe not about Merfolk, but Goblins is a lot tougher than you're giving it credit for.

If you want a separate thread for Big Zoo, you can create a thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?25-New-and-Developmental-Decks).
I've never done anything but give Goblins credit in the Zoo matchup, but it is still in our favor. They don't get god draws all the time, and we answer turn 1 Lackey effectively on the draw with 16 cards! that's better than any deck in the format. Zoo is favored against Goblins, with or without Grim Lavamancer. You're right that he is great there, but against Counter-Top and Combo? He's a dead card.

edit: yeah ty jandax

CorpT

10-06-2010, 02:09 PM

I've never done anything but give Goblins credit in the Zoo matchup, but it is still in our favor. They don't get god draws all the time, and we answer turn 1 Lackey effectively on the draw with 16 cards! that's better than any deck in the format. Zoo is favored against Goblins, with or without Grim Lavamancer. You're right that he is great there, but against Counter-Top and Combo? He's a dead card.

You're doing something wrong if Grim Lavamancer is a dead card against Counter-Top. He's not a great turn 1 play, but he is far from dead against Counter-Top. Recurring damage is always good there. It helps win Goyf wars, goes to the dome, kills Vendillion Clique, etc...

Against Goblins, it's not the turn 1 Lackey that is an issue. It's the ripped Ringleader into Piledriver/Warchief/etc... Keeping them under control with Lavamancer is generally the key there. Either stopping their haste or killing a Piledriver and then blocking their garbage creatures is the way to win that.

jandax

10-06-2010, 02:10 PM

Were you meaning to reply to another post, troop?

troopatroop

10-06-2010, 02:50 PM

You're doing something wrong if Grim Lavamancer is a dead card against Counter-Top. He's not a great turn 1 play, but he is far from dead against Counter-Top. Recurring damage is always good there. It helps win Goyf wars, goes to the dome, kills Vendillion Clique, etc...

Against Goblins, it's not the turn 1 Lackey that is an issue. It's the ripped Ringleader into Piledriver/Warchief/etc... Keeping them under control with Lavamancer is generally the key there. Either stopping their haste or killing a Piledriver and then blocking their garbage creatures is the way to win that.

Grim Lavamancer is Lackluster against Counter-Top. You can't get it into play after the lock lands, it gets swept up by EE and Firespout, and most Counter-Top lists I've played against play a Combo finish, and Grim Lavamancer doesn't help with that. I think playing something like Terravore in that spot might improve that matchup in particular, along with other decks with massive creatures. Lavamancer can always chill in the board, and I don't think those are bad matchups regardless. If you see alot of Goblins and Merfolk of course you play Lavamancer, but you should still evaluate the card in other matchups.

I'm Big Zoo theorycrafting here, but if you cut Grim Lavamancer from the MD, you can also cut Path for Swords because the lifegain is no longer as relevant as the Land. So in essence, you're removing two disynergies from the deck in one fell swoop. Noble Hierarch and Wasteland now look good as 4ofs, and Grim Lavamancer will never have to remove lands to shrink your guys. After that, you have 6 monsters to finish the game, and bunch of great creatures to get you there. STP would make me feel a lot more secure in the Goblins matchup. Path doesn't answer Lackey.

Fuzzy

10-06-2010, 03:19 PM

I'm Big Zoo theorycrafting here, but if you cut Grim Lavamancer from the MD, you can also cut Path for Swords because the lifegain is no longer as relevant as the Land. So in essence, you're removing two disynergies from the deck in one fell swoop. Noble Hierarch and Wasteland now look good as 4ofs, and Grim Lavamancer will never have to remove lands to shrink your guys. After that, you have 6 monsters to finish the game, and bunch of great creatures to get you there. STP would make me feel a lot more secure in the Goblins matchup.

It looks like the new Naya Control. Just cut Nacatl and play Top.

CorpT

10-06-2010, 04:05 PM

It looks like the new Naya Control. Just cut Nacatl and play Top.

Or cut Red entirely and run Blue instead... Almost like a Bant Aggro or New Horizons style deck.

I've said this before, and apparently Ill need to say it again. Zoo is an aggro deck. It's not a Control deck or a Tempo deck. I suppose if you call every efficient creature a "tempo" creature:

Turn one kitty on the other hand, is always tempo. Goyf turn 2 is always awesome.

Then, sure, Zoo and every other deck in Legacy is a Tempo deck, but what's the point of calling anything Tempo then?

I get that you want to innovate Zoo. But there isn't much room to do that. If you want to make it more controlling (which is what you're doing), you're going to lose the consistency that the straightforward lists have. You can probably improve some matchups that way, but ultimately hurt your over all %s.

Honestly, not snide at all, I don't understand why you don't just play Bant. You're pushing yourself away from the things that make Zoo good against Goblins and Merfolk without adding the things that would make your deck better against anything else. If you just cut the red and went to Blue, you could pick up a lot of things that make the Combo/Control matchups hard. IMO, you're weakening MUs that shouldn't be weakened as they are large part of the meta and not improving the MUs that need to be improved. That doesn't make sense to me. If you're ok with weakening your Tribal MUs, why not at least improve your Combo/Control MUs?

troopatroop

10-06-2010, 05:15 PM

Honestly, not snide at all, I don't understand why you don't just play Bant. You're pushing yourself away from the things that make Zoo good against Goblins and Merfolk without adding the things that would make your deck better against anything else. If you just cut the red and went to Blue, you could pick up a lot of things that make the Combo/Control matchups hard. IMO, you're weakening MUs that shouldn't be weakened as they are large part of the meta and not improving the MUs that need to be improved. That doesn't make sense to me. If you're ok with weakening your Tribal MUs, why not at least improve your Combo/Control MUs?

I don't play Bant, again to anwer the question for you, because red gets Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Those are the cards that win you the game against Merfolk and Goblins, and I still play them. I also play 4 STP for bigger guys, and fat blockers of my own. Explain to me why I should be so afraid of Merfolk and Goblins. If your argument boils down to telling me to play another deck, then you should say nothing at all.

Terravore definitely improves the Control/Aggro-Control matchup, by being massive. Grim Lavamancer is a terrific card, but I'm going to play around with not having him MD. I don't think he and Noble Hierarch really help eachother. Wasteland is always great against Combo/Control, and my SB is jam packed with combo hate. Naya Horizons?

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library

I think this deck would be favored against Merfolk, Goblins, Counterbalance, and even with a bunch of other stuff. Yeah combo stomps you if you can't put up pressure quick, but what was Grim Lavamancer doing there? I think this list has potential, I'm gonna keep working on it.

Fuzzy

10-06-2010, 07:40 PM

Naya Horizons?

Exactly, you're trying this kind of New Horizons without Jace, Brainstorm, Ponder, Stifle and countermagic and replacing then with 8 spot removals and running subpar cards like Wild Nacatl.

I'm with CorpT here, can't see WHY play this when you can play Bant.

troopatroop

10-06-2010, 08:26 PM

Wild Nacatl is a subpar card? I feel like I've arrived in the twilight zone. Wild Nacatl remains the best card in the deck, period.

Fuzzy

10-06-2010, 08:42 PM

In New Horizons-ish deck? I can't remember the last time anyone played Nimble Mongoose against me.

troopatroop

10-06-2010, 11:27 PM

Yes! If New Horizons could play Wild Nacatl it would! Nimble Mongoose does not swing for 3-4 on turn 2. I can't believe this is even being debated, Wild Nacatl is one of the best creatures in the format. Tempo has yet to be tried in Naya, and Wild Nacatl is what makes this attractive in the first place. Bant plays 4 removal spells main, and LOSES to Merfolk and Goblins. Also, So what if they have Jace, we have Elspeth. Also, Jace isn't very good against this deck. They play Ponder+ Brainstorm where we play Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. They play Stifle, we play Noble Hierarch. We have alot of the same creatures in common, but in general we play more of them. It's the burn spells that give us a better Aggro matchup than Bant, and that's why I play this deck.

jandax

10-07-2010, 04:55 AM

Yes, it is good that he is trying to Innovate Zoo. However, as stated, there's not much room to innovate zoo as the consistent lists are all a few cards different from each other. That doesn't include sideboards because each metagame is different. But the options for sideboard cards remain the same. Only when a new card every year or so is printed, like Nacatl two years ago and Lynx a year ago, is there time for innovation as folks seize innitiative.

Big Zoo is indeed innovation, and should be stated by whoever posts that it is specifically different from little/traditional zoo to avoid butting heads.

Let's think back to PT Austin last year. That format was rampant with fast Zoo decks, and what innovation came along to beat it all? Big Zoo. It's an easy port to legacy thanks to better mana and a wider card pool.

If we're going to argue against Troop, we should at least test his lists and have specific reasons why the deck is or isn't good. I don't really think this arguement/discussion is extending further than our computer screnes as it should (ie, testing)

OldOD

10-07-2010, 07:31 AM

So... i cant help but notice someone called wild nacatl subpar... this is a joke right?

CorpT

10-07-2010, 10:08 AM

So... i cant help but notice someone called wild nacatl subpar... this is a joke right?

Did you ignore the context? New Horizons wouldn't play Wild Nacatl if it could. Troop wants to make New Horizons in Naya colors without the good cards like Force of Will and Brainstorm.

Troop is playing 4 one drops that are relevant on turn 1. What's the point of that? Wild Nacatl is good for early pressure. But it is good because it combines with other good one drops like Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, etc... Having only 4 good one drops makes them pretty useless.

troopatroop

10-07-2010, 10:54 AM

Troop is playing 4 one drops that are relevant on turn 1. What's the point of that? Wild Nacatl is good for early pressure. But it is good because it combines with other good one drops like Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, etc... Having only 4 good one drops makes them pretty useless.

Your posts are spiteful and brief, exactly what the DTB forum tries to avoid. You've had this vendetta against me for a few pages, but I can't help but defend myself. What are you talking about here? How is Noble Hierarch not relevant? Why is Wild Nacatl only good beside Steppe Lynx and Kird Ape? I play 8 1drops, not 4. Explain this further. I find that playing fewer attacking one drops and more exalted guys actually gives my deck MORE focus. Not playing Kird Ape and Steppe Lynx ensures that I won't draw them lategame, which is very good. Again, you're saying something outlandish in only a few sentences, so you've got to back it up with information. Why is playing 4 Wild Nacatl useless in my deck?

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-07-2010, 11:56 AM

I haven't replied in this thread for a LONG time, so I figured I'd chime in with me being the Zoo-ru and all.

Nacatl is a 3/3 for one. I don't think the word Zoo should even be in the title of the deck unless you're running 4 of these and 4 Bolts.

Big Zoo is interesting to me because I've always been a big fan of the "slower" version of Zoo, but I think it it just slows down too much. I agree with playing super efficient spells and creatures, but the deck just seems like a midrange Naya deck to me. It should have it's own thread. I'm not hating, it's just the truth.

Adding Wasteland to a 3 color deck that is so reliant on colors doesn't seem like the right call. What matchups could it help against that Zoo doesn't already rape? And playing Wasteland means that you'll be losing the land wars to the more dedicated LD/Tempo decks of the format, which are pretty rampant right now. I've ALWAYS wanted lands with this deck, and as good as exalted is, the deck doesn't need more BOPs. It doesn't seem justifiable JUST because you play a poor mana denial strategy and Elspeth. As much I love the Big "Zoo" lists, I think they don't need to be in this thread.

Also this deck can't be innovated. I've argued against most every "innovative" card in the deck, and they never make the cut or the top lists. Hell, 50 pages of this thread is everyone arguing over Aether Vial, you see how well that went. I'm not against innovation, there just isn't any fat left to trim from this deck.

CorpT

10-07-2010, 12:12 PM

Your posts are spiteful and brief, exactly what the DTB forum tries to avoid. You've had this vendetta against me for a few pages, but I can't help but defend myself. What are you talking about here? How is Noble Hierarch not relevant? Why is Wild Nacatl only good beside Steppe Lynx and Kird Ape? I play 8 1drops, not 4. Explain this further. I find that playing fewer attacking one drops and more exalted guys actually gives my deck MORE focus. Not playing Kird Ape and Steppe Lynx ensures that I won't draw them lategame, which is very good. Again, you're saying something outlandish in only a few sentences, so you've got to back it up with information. Why is playing 4 Wild Nacatl useless in my deck?

I'm not being spiteful. If you take it that way, well... sorry, but I'm not the one sending PMs calling the other person a troll. I have no vendetta.

On topic: We're at an impasse. You consider Noble Hierarch to be a perfectly legit 1 drop in an aggro deck. I don't. I consider aggressive cards, like Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl and Steppe Lynx to be good, aggressive creatures. You know... creatures that attack for more than 1. I also want more than 4 of those aggro cards in my aggro deck because it means that I will likely draw at least one in my opening hand meaning I will be attacking for 3-5 on turn 2, instead of 1 or not at all.

I really don't know what else to tell you. If you think I haven't tried Noble and Wasteland, you're wrong. I tried them and they didn't work out against the common MUs. I don't know what you're playing them against that they're working, but they are certainly not working for me. You've basically dismissed everything I've said and explained that Wastelands are good because the kill non-basics without listing a single specific deck you want it against despite me asking for that at least twice. Your logic is: "Wasteland is godlike". I want more specific examples of what decks Wasteland is good against (and thanks, I can read, I know it's good against non-basics) and what situations against those decks you want it (more specific than "all the time, it's godlike".) You won't answer that, so I really don't see the point in continuing this conversation.

troopatroop

10-07-2010, 12:52 PM

Noble Hierarch works because the threats it accelerates into are so game breaking. Knight of the Reliquary and Elspeth are both massive. I wouldn't play Elspeth without Noble Hierarch, because it costs 4 mana. That is far too much for an aggro deck. It becomes hard to lose the game with an Elspeth in play, so the earlier it happens, the easier it will be to stabalize with it and win the game. Noble Hierarch helps with this, and coupled with Wasteland putting them back, you can get way ahead. You want matchups where you really need Wasteland? Okay here's a few.

Combo, Stax, Landstill of all kinds, CAB Jace, 43 Land, Zoo, Counter-top, Tempo Thresh, and Team America.

Noble Hierarch is also amazing against other tempo decks that want to deny you mana, which form a significant portion of the metagame. It is my opinion that Noble Hierarch is more significant that Kird Ape or Loam Lion. I almost never attack with it, so referencing that it only swings for one is pretty laughable. You've really dug your heels in with this one, so lets just agree to disagree. Quick Zoo lists really want to win the game early, and if they fail at that they do their best to finish the game. Big Zoo lists have alot of the early game pressure to get ahead, but are designed to have the edge in the mid-late game. This is why I think Terravore deserves to be tested, and why Noble Hierarch and Wasteland strengthen that strategy.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-07-2010, 01:04 PM

Combo, Stax, Landstill of all kinds, CAB Jace, 43 Land, Zoo, Counter-top, Tempo Thresh, and Team America.

You don't have enough power to capitalize on any of these decks except Team America and Tempo Thresh.

Combo still combos you because your deck is too slow. Stax prolly has under a lock at that point, or loses to itself. Landstill plays 24 lands with Brainstorms and Standstills. Zoo seems relevant, but ONLY if you have Hierarch or a land heavy draw and they aren't getting that lucky. Countertop has many ways to keep making land drops.

Using Wasteland against these decks doesn't seem too great when you don't have too fast of a deck. It ONLY seems good with Hierarch.

CorpT

10-07-2010, 01:28 PM

jandax

10-07-2010, 02:27 PM

So can we agree to put this baby to bed, at least until someone brings it up next page?

troopatroop

10-07-2010, 03:55 PM

You don't have enough power to capitalize on any of these decks except Team America and Tempo Thresh.

Combo still combos you because your deck is too slow. Stax prolly has under a lock at that point, or loses to itself. Landstill plays 24 lands with Brainstorms and Standstills. Zoo seems relevant, but ONLY if you have Hierarch or a land heavy draw and they aren't getting that lucky. Countertop has many ways to keep making land drops.

Using Wasteland against these decks doesn't seem too great when you don't have too fast of a deck. It ONLY seems good with Hierarch.

I don't have enough power? This is such garbage, I share the entire core of the deck! Zoo's creatures aren't powerful? Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Elspeth is alot of power. All those cards come out quickly, and hit for damage. In my TESTING against Landstill, Combo, Stax, and CAB Jace, one Wasteland was always something to capitalize on. The deck is only a hair slower.

This is so ridiculous, I'm not even going to comment again.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18606-Top-8-with-R-G-W-u-Big-Zoo-JupiterGames-August-21st

You want evidence of Wastelands quality? Read it.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-08-2010, 12:07 AM

I don't have enough power? This is such garbage, I share the entire core of the deck! Zoo's creatures aren't powerful? Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Elspeth is alot of power. All those cards come out quickly, and hit for damage. In my TESTING against Landstill, Combo, Stax, and CAB Jace, one Wasteland was always something to capitalize on. The deck is only a hair slower.

This is so ridiculous, I'm not even going to comment again.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18606-Top-8-with-R-G-W-u-Big-Zoo-JupiterGames-August-21st

You want evidence of Wastelands quality? Read it.

Okay so your deck was good to you during a tournament??? I'm not flaming or hating, I'm just putting forth what I think about the deck. You don't need to get so mad brah. If the deck does well for you then play it, but for others who want more consistency they'll stick with regular Zoo ya know? Idk even know why this is being discussed here because it's Naya Midrange and not Zoo.

Demonic_Attorney

10-09-2010, 04:03 PM

Wow, I haven't been on here for about a month and when I perused this thread now I am quite shocked and appalled that people are putting Terravore, Wasteland and especially Noble Hierarch into classic zoo decks.

Please don't get me wrong, I am all for innovation and there are always a few slots in Zoo that are open for debate. However, that being said, what people are doing to this deck is manifestly changing the deck to something new and completely different. This deck being called "big zoo" is changing the aggressive strategy and the entire core of the classic fast Zoo deck and is palpably shaking the very foundation on what this deck is built around; cheap, aggressive, fast and efficient 1-2 drop cards (with some very limited 3cc cards like 2-3 KOTR).

I will even go as far as saying that this so called "big zoo" deck may even be viable and decent to play, a fact that is not admitted and is specifically denied because I have seen it have any success at any major legacy event, and I have not play tested it myself. Therefore, I reserve any further comment on if this deck can be tier one or even as good as traditional Zoo. The point is, this deck "big zoo" being advanced should be on a different thread because there are just too many abrupt, impulsive and erratic changes being made and the voluminous amount of changes are impeding a traditional and fast/ aggressive modern style Zoo deck which I do believe this particular forum represents?

Now, onto why I came on here today in the first place. Vengevine/Survival/ Madness is a pretty bad match up for Zoo, unfortunately . It is not like you can play extirpate or parish (nor would you want to) like other decks are doing and all of the staple Zoo sideboard options seem quite weak and futile against Vengevine. I have carefully and thoroughly perused all the sideboards for all the top Zoo decks from the last two Grand Prix Legacy events and none offer good or viable options. I have further looked over several of the sideboards that have been posted on here and dido. Given that 7 of the 32 decks at my last legacy event ran Vengevine/ Madness it is pretty annoying to have two 4/3’s swinging at you on turn two fairly consistently. Just curious to see if U/G Madness is popular in other metagames, and if so, what people playing Zoo (by this I mean traditional zoo) are boarding in?

troopatroop

10-10-2010, 02:43 AM

I think you're right, I'm gonna make a new thread tomorrow. I just went 9-1 in preboard testing against a traditional U/r Dreadstill list with the Naya Horizons build, which is pretty insane considering I have 8 burn spells that all suck. Still there was just nothing he could do, all my threats are way too good. Noble Hierarch was insane, as was Wasteland. :D

Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle are probably the best cards you can play against Vengevine. Perhaps some Ethersworn Cannonist to also help against Combo decks, I don't really know. Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle seem really strong currently, with Survival being amazing and all.

lordofthepit

10-10-2010, 03:52 AM

Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle are probably the best cards you can play against Vengevine. Perhaps some Ethersworn Cannonist to also help against Combo decks, I don't really know. Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle seem really strong currently, with Survival being amazing and all.

I've had some luck bringing in minimal hate for the graveyard and Survival, but brining in a few Swords to Plowshares to complement Path to Exile. If you can prevent them from overrunning you with Vengevine, then your creatures easily outclass theirs.

Nelis

10-10-2010, 09:31 AM

Just curious to see if U/G Madness is popular in other metagames, and if so, what people playing Zoo (by this I mean traditional zoo) are boarding in?

I'll put in Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm trying out an Enlightened Tutor package in the sideboard but no proper data results yet since Im not playing much Legacy atm. A more reactive solution would be Faerie Macabre. My personal favourite GY removal is still Relic of Progenitus.

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 10:59 AM

Dear Sirs,

Please test and share your conclusions rather than flaming.

@ Troopatropp, please go stomp the next big event and post a tournament report, I have all the confidence that you can get there with that list (sans the Terravores, I agree with everything else).

Both lists have their pros and cons. I did a pretty fair comparison back a few pages from my own testing:

Big zoo: Better vs anything with dudes (new horizons, bant aggro, countertop, zoo mirror, the rock, anything mid range)

Traditional zoo: Better vs anything without dudes (storm combo, reanimator, any fast combo, jacestill, lands)

Folk, gobbos and other tribal are still good MUs as 11/12 removal spells + lavamancers still get played in big zoo. Please test the above MUs and you will realise that its a pretty good idea to play big zoo, if your meta has plenty of dude-filled lists.

lordofthepit

10-10-2010, 01:29 PM

I'll put in Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm trying out an Enlightened Tutor package in the sideboard but no proper data results yet since Im not playing much Legacy atm. A more reactive solution would be Faerie Macabre. My personal favourite GY removal is still Relic of Progenitus.

Wheel of Sun and Moon allows the Madness player to get infinite Rootwallas. You can still win through that, but I certainly wouldn't take out anything good for it, and would only resort to it if you have a lot of dead cards with nothing else to bring in.

BantFTW

10-10-2010, 05:57 PM

This is my opinnion about the sideboard:
3x volcanic fallout (good against gobblins & merfolk, I lost 2 times from gobblins last tournament in mol, they just kept me off my land :(
3x REB/pyroblast (good against anything with blue ofc)
2x relic of progenitus/crypt, I would go crypt because it's faster
2x (forgot the name), discard: remove 2 cards in a graveyard
2x gaddock teeg (probably I would go main with them)
3x mindbreak trap (combo)

Why si much graveyard hate, well, the vengevine decks are quite popular atm and also anything that plays loam.
Also threshold, lands, ...

That's my idea, let me know what you think.

Also, those vengevine decks aren't a really bad matchup if you can raise a littlebit and use your PTE's against their vengevines.
But would you guys kill turn 1 noble?

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 08:07 PM

I play this SB:

3 Krosan Grip (counterbalance/survival/enchantress/equipment)
3 Choke (I prefer this over blasts because they screw blue over, blast is just nice to have, choke is an absolute bomb + you dont want to keep your mana open for REB, you want to be dropping dudes)
2 Relic
1 Crypt
3 Teeq
3 Mindbreak trap

I don't get why people are so concerned about killing venges when you should be concerned about killing survival. Without survivail, 1 recurring venge is pretty harmless, Path solves that. Your Kotrs and goyfs are bigger too, so whats the issue?

CorpT

10-10-2010, 09:02 PM

Choke v REB:

Choke hits Blue Control decks. That's really about it. It doesn't stop SnT, Merfolk, etc...
REB hits Blue Control decks, SnT, Merfolk, Breakthrough, etc...

REB is a much more versatile card compared to Choke. Choke definitely hits the blue control decks harder than REB, but it is a fairly narrow card. I would rather play something a little more flexible.

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 09:40 PM

True, I wouldn't call choke narrow though. It hits landstill especially and countertop/bant decks very hard. That's a fairly large % of the meta. Merfolk mu should be pretty good already, even then choke is pretty brutal if you have the pridemage/grip for their vial. Landing choke against a vial-less folk deck is GG. Same for show and tell. If you land choke before the SnT its also GG. Show and tell decks rarely get the T3 show and tell, so you have a good chance of landing it before they go off. They spend the early turns cantripping/tutoring, so landing a choke is pretty devastating. I wouldn't call choke narrow by a long mile. Those who have played against or with choke know how good that card is. Hatfield runs choke in his zoo SB. I would run it too.

Fuzzy

10-10-2010, 09:55 PM

I like REB for three reasons:

1 - I hate losing to a 15/15 Alien for 2U.
2 - I can kill War Monks for R.
3 - I can board it in vs. Dredge and hit their speed.

I'm runninng 2-1 REB/Blast split and aways like it (Split because Dredge runs Cabal Therapy).

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 10:35 PM

Both are good, but I believe that 2-3 chokes should be there in addition to REBs. If I were limited to just 3 anti blue slots, I would still play choke because its a GG spell vs blue, whereas REBs, though slightly more versatile, helps but does not win games on its own vs blue. In situation:

1. Vs show and tell, you will almost always land choke before they land the alien. If they have force, tough luck, they would've forced your REB too in that situation. Choke is almost as good in this situation. I don't want to keep my mana open for REB and hurt my own tempo when I suspect they have the combo but they don't.

2. I'd rather have 2G, opponents can no longer play 80% of his spells rather than R destroy target annoying creature. You can easily outgrind any deck that can't cast 80% of their spells.

3. Its better against dredge this I admit. But if you're keeping your mana open for REB and they drop LED/putrid imp/cephalid Colosseum, you are screwed regardless.

Fuzzy

10-10-2010, 11:01 PM

@ivanpei:

1 - Choke can be easily Dazed. Also, they can draw go and do nothing with their Islands until turn 3 (BS/Ponder on 1st turn, whatever), cast the Alien and WHO CARES about Islands after that?

2 - It's my turn to admit Choke is better against Counterbalance. I think it's a fine matchup anyway, being the biggest problems Rhox and CB, where REBs solve both.

3 - If it happen, you will need the hate grave or a miracle anyway.

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 11:13 PM

Thats a fair argument. I agree with your deductions. I prefer having my counterbalance MU nailed down rock solid especially postboard against a bazillion firespouts/spot removal. IMO show and tell is such a hard MU even with REBs/choke, just like storm combo. IMO I'm assuming you are talking about the burning wish version right? You overestimate their ability to find both Snt and Emrakul by turn 3/4.

I've played against it and I assure you barring a god hand, it is not that easy to assemble that combo. Thats why they play countertop, daze etc to slow you down while they find the combo. They do not have a tutor that finds both components. Burning wish -> firespout is a very common play in that deck. Its a control deck with a combo finish not a crazy fast combo deck. Against this slower version, you can slowroll your choke too and not walk into daze.

Anyway, I agree to disagree. At worse, the 3 Mind break traps in the board can be REBs if I don't see much storm but more blue.

Fuzzy

10-10-2010, 11:51 PM

I think the problem here is conclude what "Counterbalance MU" is. I mean, if they have RWM and Spout, I think it's THE REAL nightmare, maybe even worse than any kind of Storm Combo. The Martell CB is fine, and Pro Bant is all about racing. I don't know if it's just me, but for now I'm planning abandon this matchup, because this meta looks really bad for Counterbalance because their matchup versus GX Vengevines and Merfolks.

Here in Brazil the most common versions of SnT are that with Sneak Attack (and Basic Mountains) and UBx (Both with and without Doomsday). I never see the thread about Emrakul decks and never see Burning Wishs in those, so IMHO its a fast combo with control protection, much like Flash with sumoning sickness.

My sideboard looks like:

3 Ranger of Eos (For mirror, grabbing Wild Nacatl/Figure of Destiny, and for Vial Aggro, where Lavamancers are hot)
2 KGrip (versus CB, Survival, Stax, Enchantress... Pretty obvious here)
2 Gaddock Teeg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z1EimqYBKCs/RzQ4MMfNBDI/AAAAAAAAAI0/qM-SWTLt77I/s400/pedro2.jpg) (Control sutff and Combo)
2-1 Pyro/REB split (As I said before + Merfolk)
1 Karakas (Not sure if needed, I think I'm beeing a pussy here)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (Aggro mirrors)
3 Flex Slots (Pithing Needle, White Leyline, Mindbreak Trap, Canonist, Shusher, meta options)

ivanpei

10-11-2010, 12:02 AM

I see, your SB is geared towards emrakul decks. No worries, that looks like a very solid anti Snt/sneak attack/doomsday SB. Mine is tailored for a more all rounded meta. My definition of all rounded is something like: 30% tribal (folk/gobbos), 20% Countertop/Jacestill, 20% Bant Aggro/New horizons, 20% Zoo, 10 % Combo (storm, dredge, reanimator, Snt, enchantress/survival).

Big Zoo beats tribal, big zoo beats the zoo mirror, so nothing for those. 6 Storm hate cards with Teeqs and traps, 3 (Relic/crypt) For grave combo, 3 anti blue (choke). 3 Grip for countertop, equipment, survival, enchantress.

I think giving up against supreme blue is unwise. Especially if you can rape them with a resolved choke. Just bait forces with sylvan libraries/kotrs etc. :) Then it becomes a cake walk.

BantFTW

10-11-2010, 11:40 AM

Read: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/examining-the-top-8-decks-at-tokyo%e2%80%99s-eternal-festival/

245 players and zoo is deck 1 :O

decklist:

•4 Wild Nacatl
•3 Noble Hierarch
•2 Figure of Destiny (is this so good than, I would go like saito says one more lavamancer atleast?)
•2 Grim Lavamancer
•4 Tarmogoyf
•4 Qasali Pridemage
•4 Knight of the Reliquary
•2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
•4 Lightning Bolt
•4 Swords to Plowshares
•2 Path to Exile
•1 Umezawas Jitte
•2 Sylvan Library

23 land:
•1 Forest
•1 Plains
•1 Mountain
•2 Plateau
•2 Savannah
•2 Taiga
•4 Arid Mesa
•4 Wooded Foothills
•2 Windswept Heath
•2 Wasteland
•1 Karakas
•Sideboard
•3 Pyroblast
•3 Pyrostatic Pillar --> quite cool, but don't you get a lot of damage yourself :O?
•2 Price of Progress --> When I played big zoo I missed those
•2 Krosan Grip
•2 Tormods Crypt
•1 Bojuka Bog
•1 Red Elemental Blast
•1 Gaddock Teeg

Quite a cool deck, also karakas is very interesting I think with kotr^^
But I'm still not sold on big zoo, I'm going to test it more once i've got time lol..

affinitypimp

10-11-2010, 02:46 PM

wow, i better suit up my Zoo deck again cause this version looks funner than the fast Zoo version. Elspeths and such in this deck... i wonder if we can take out 1 Elspeth and put in 1 Koth to make the deck funner. Koth would be awesome since it allows you to tap out then untap a mountain to either swing for 4 or to lightning bolt something.

maxflow2

10-11-2010, 03:59 PM

•3 Pyrostatic Pillar --> quite cool, but don't you get a lot of damage yourself :O?

Pyrostatic Pillar is mainly there for the storm matchup, I believe, where the damage you do to yourself is probably insignificant as long as you stay at a higher life total than them. I'm not sure if it makes sense to bring in for any other matchups (it might) and think it's pretty narrow, but as a storm player, I can tell you that I hate playing against it.

Nelis

10-11-2010, 04:11 PM

Wheel of Sun and Moon allows the Madness player to get infinite Rootwallas.
I never ever thought of that. Good one.

troopatroop

10-12-2010, 01:28 AM

Note the 3x Noble Hierarch in that 1st place list! Wasteland too, clearly they're decent in Zoo.

jandax

10-12-2010, 07:43 AM

So have you made that new thread about Big Zoo? I'm kinda looking forward to it

It seems to be the consensis that anything other than traditional Naya zoo in this thread is an insult to all humanity.

Pingu

10-12-2010, 07:53 AM

I'm trying out a faster version of zoo because my meta is full of Storms and Vengevine decks and the more standard version loose a lot to this kind of decks, goblins and merfolks remain good matches but bant and the other two versions of zoo (standard and big) are bad because they have many big guys and sword to plowshares is out of question in this version. Is there any other creature removal efective (i tought on submerge but the blue splash seems awkward)

Any comments on this list are welcome.

4 Wooded Foothils
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage

4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast

4 Chain Lightning

2 Sylvan Librarie

sb:
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Price of Progress
1 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Grim Lavamancer

jandax

10-12-2010, 09:48 AM

4 Goblin Guides doesn't make the deck faster. You'll need to max out on 11/12 fetchlands and squeeze in 4 Steppe Lynxs to turn it into more of a speedy Zoo varient. Suggestions to do so:

-1 Mountain/Savannah +2 Windswept Heath

-2 Kird Ape/2 Fireblast +4 Steppe Lynx

Kird Ape is vanilla, and while consistently a 2/3 for R, you are trying to be faster and even more aggressive. Fireblast, while a good finisher, and great with KotR (which isn't present), is simply the next card to cut I think.

The sideboard is your own, I don't know the meta in which you play. Yet this should speed the deck up a little bit. Helix might be an all-star for you against other agro matchups where you might likely run out of gas before they're dead. I was considering cutting that but that life gain is huge, especially in the mirror where you are already slightly faster.

Pingu

10-12-2010, 11:36 AM

BantFTW

10-12-2010, 11:42 AM

@Pingu, I've got this list:

20 lands:
2x horizon canopy (not sure of them)
1x savannah
2x taiga
2x plateau
3x basics
3x wooded foothills
4x windswept heath
3x arid mesa

4x wild nacatl
3x kotr
4x qasali pridemage
4x goyf
3x grim lavamancer
2x kird ape and 2x loam lion
--> I've played Steppe Lynx first, it comes in for damage that's true, but if you get it lategame is kinda sucky.
I've prefer kird ape/loam lion also because it can defend, quite important against quite alot of decks these days :)
That's my opinnion.

3x chain lightning
3x price of progress
2x fireblast
4x lightning bolt
4x PTE
2x sylvan library

Sb//
2x gaddock teeg
2x revenous trap
2x REB/pyroblast
2x krosan grip
3x mindbreak trap, they were good for me but maybe Pyrostatic Pillar is better now I think of that :O?
2x tormod's crypt
2x feary macabre

I would really want 3x volcanic fallout in it, gobblins, merfolk, storm with tokens^
So thinking of dropping 3x mindbreak trap and 3x ravenous trap for 2x pyrostatic pillar and 3x volcanic fallout.
The annoying thing is that when playing against RB Gobblins, that they can control your lands, and I always play against
a good goblin player here and lose because of that so idk^^
First I played 1 stp and 3 lightning helix, that was quite good, the life ain't that bad if you only do it one time so maybe that helps :O?

Machahiko

10-12-2010, 01:29 PM

Hi,

First time posting here thought I've been watching the thread for quite a while. Anyways after a long time I decided to bring out a question that has kept me wondering. What to do in the matchup against countertop decks, what cards are good in general and what cards are good sideboard options? Here the metagame has a lot of merfolk which is nice, but in the last tournament 66% of the matches I had to play were against some decks with countertop engine in them. I wouldn't mind at all if someone could give me a general headline about how to play against these decks as well, because my game plan against these decks has been.. hard to follow.

At the moment I don't have a decklist but I have a decent library of cards which allow me to play fast Zoo (with Lynx), traditional Zoo and big Zoo. So far I've been playing fast Zoo, Alix Hatfield's list with minor changes. Anyways, what to do against countertop?

affinitypimp

10-12-2010, 02:17 PM

I like that list VERY much. Real Zoo is suppose to be REAL fast and have tons of burn.... in fact so much Burn that we can many times cut half of those going to the dome to their critters to let goyfs and nacatls thru. I'd probably take that 3rd price of progress out though and throw in another chain lightning. my burn list was pretty similar to yours but i didnt run Helix's. If i wanted to run fast Zoo then i usually do it like this:

x4 Wild Nacatl
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Qasali Pride Mage (exalted helps alot and makes your goyf bigger than theirs, also good to destroy stuff like counterbalance and such)
x3 Lavamancer
x2 KotR
x2 Jotun Grunt (hes so good VS GY decks and he beats for 4)
x2 Loam Lion (i like him better cause its rare but i seen him still put up aggression in the face of anti-red enchantments and stuff)
x2 Sylvan Library

burn list:
x4 Lightning bolt
x4 chain lightning
x2 PoP
x2 Fireblast
x3 PtE
x2 Volcanic Fallout

This was the list i ran back in Richmond, VA for SCG. my record sucked however as i kept on getting faced with combo and more combo (freaking ANT decks and Reanimator, back when Mystical was still legal) And i ran the fallouts to hit Goblins and Fish FTW of course since my dudes were bigger... all matchs where i went up against Fish or some other aggro deck i won due to me just consistently killing atleast by turn 4

a good hand is this:
Turn 1: fetch, Taiga, play Nacatl
Turn 2: fetch Plateau, play qasali PM, swing for 4 with Nacatl
turn 3 fetch, a basic mountain just in case of wasteland, PtE something if u have to and swing for 5 total, then mainphase2 Goyf or Lavamancer or kotR or something life threatening
Turn 4: Swing with the team, then play a bolt effect or PoP and sac 2 mountains ftw with Fireblast hopefully for lethal.

and this isnt even a Godhand... this is just the regular hand that you can pull off sometimes.

i just like fast Zoo too much to be putting in Elspeths and Noble Hierarchs... maybe i should test the Zoo list that was ran in Japan though.

CorpT

10-12-2010, 03:44 PM

I have been unimpressed with Price of Progress. It is easy for most people to play around and I always want to get duals. I haven't missed it at all.

keys

10-12-2010, 04:53 PM

As someone who has yet to take a side on the whole "Big Zoo" debate, I have a few thoughts:

I am intrigued by the direction because I think Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Steppe Lynx are all a bit underwhelming. Lynx is too swingy (it's better in speed zoo and burn), and the 2/3s just don't have the same impact they used to. Figure of Destiny is nice but realistically cannot be played as more than a 2-of. Until we get another 3/3 for 1, Hierarch could be the next best 1 drop.

On the other hand, the mana and exalted from Noble Hierarch is always pretty useful. Being able to play 4 Knights of Reliquary and a couple bombs like Elspeth and/or Jitte is fantastic in the mirror and against other aggro. They also make the deck more resilient to Wasteland/Stifle, which you have to expect.

Altering the burn/removal package too much is a poor idea, however. 4 Bolt/3-4 Chain/4 Path is solid and shouldn't change. Swords are not wanted here since the purpose of Path is to get rid of things burn can't remove (e.g. fat green creatures, Tombstalker, Dreadnought). Giving someone 5-12 life is much more problematic than a basic land (if they have it).

I'm not a huge fan of Wasteland in here either, except maybe as a 1-of to fetch with Knight to get rid of Mazes, Tabernacles, and Glacial Chasms. The deck simply doesn't have a plan to capitalize on mana denial. Most decks that do, play Daze/Spell Pierce or Trinisphere/Chalice. Alternatively, 2-3 Horizon Canopies in a 21 land manabase (+ Hierarchs) is a good idea because it guarantees you'll be able to cast your bombs if you draw them, but also gives you the option to cycle if you don't.

If you try out a "Big Zoo" variation, keep these points in mind.

If anyone's curious what the list I'm testing looks like, here it is:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

With 1/1/1 Figure/Espeth/Jitte I have 3 late game bombs but they're diversified, so I never draw doubles. I've commented on why I like Figure so much in the past, so I won't rehash, but the idea is that he swings in for 2 damage past Rhox/Nacatl/mini Goyfs when you have 3 mana open.

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast (not Choke because I want to hard counter Jace and Show and Tell)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrostatic Pillar (according to all my combo playing friends, this is the best option. nothing will stop them except for a faster clock)
3 Price of Progress (lands, control)
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Pithing Needle (Survival, Vial, Jace, EE, P Deed, etc. this card is hot right now)

five

10-12-2010, 05:13 PM

My burn/removal package currently includes:
4 Bolts
4 Chain
3 Path
2 Fireblast
2 Helix
1 PoP

I was considering testing Arc Trail in place of the Helixes or the PoP. Arc Trail probably seems terrible because it only kills crappy dudes and isn't very effective when applied to the dome etc. There are quite a few relevant creatures it kills though, so you could always hope for the 2 for 1. Clearing the path for your attack is never bad, right?

Like I said, I don't expect this idea to be too well received but I still want to hear what you all think about it.

Demonic_Attorney

10-12-2010, 07:39 PM

@ivanpei:

It's my turn to admit Choke is better against Counterbalance. I think it's a fine matchup anyway, being the biggest problems Rhox and CB, where REBs solve both.

You don't think the 3 maindeck firespout is the biggest problem against Countertop? Rhox can be pathed, swords or REB. What is your answer for a quick efficient board sweeper?

Fuzzy

10-12-2010, 08:25 PM

You don't think the 3 maindeck firespout is the biggest problem against Countertop? Rhox can be pathed, swords or REB. What is your answer for a quick efficient board sweeper?

Mark of Asylum, of course.

No, seriously, there's nothing. For now, I couldn't care less about any deck with bad matchup against Merfolk and UG Madness. My best strategy is just avoid Firespouts in rounds 1-2 and keep winning .

ivanpei

10-12-2010, 09:36 PM

My thoughts exactly, counterbalance will always be a big % of the meta, so its best to be prepared for them. I expect to see counterbalance with firespout even in the top tables. Don't leave home without the chokes. :) I don't really mind when opponents tap out to board wipe with firespout and I drop choke. GG friend.

jandax

10-13-2010, 05:05 AM

Big Zoo Post

To keep the heat down, either wait for or make a Big Zoo thread in the other part of the forum. I like your list and have carefully considered your post to implement into my own version of the deck, but folks seem to want this to stay the Traditional Zoo. I'm not hating here, just trying to prevent another page of fuss

keys

10-13-2010, 01:26 PM

To keep the heat down, either wait for or make a Big Zoo thread in the other part of the forum. I like your list and have carefully considered your post to implement into my own version of the deck, but folks seem to want this to stay the Traditional Zoo. I'm not hating here, just trying to prevent another page of fuss

Personally, I'd rather we not create a separate thread. LED and non-LED Ichorid are in different threads and the disconnect is really annoying. Besides, we're really only talking about a difference in 1 card here, so I wouldn't say "Big Zoo" is a new deck, just a slight variation.

troopatroop

10-13-2010, 01:57 PM

I made a new thread in N+D, some discussion there would be cool. @Keys, I agree with alot of what you said, so thanks for knowing your stuff. The only thing we disagree on really is Wasteland, but I see the appeal of an even stronger manabase + Canopies. If you could take your discussion to the Naya Midrange thread, it would clear up confusion here.

e=mc^2

10-25-2010, 05:18 PM

I haven't played this deck since long before Columbus, so the meta has changed considerably since than. I've always wanted to try Burning Tree Shaman in this deck, and I think now may be a good time. I know that this was discussed a while ago, but the meta has changed since then. Shaman could get in a lot of damage against Survival, Goblins, and Merfolk.

Is it worth it to include Shaman?

What if anything would have to change about the deck to include Shaman?

Discuss.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-25-2010, 05:55 PM

BTS is amazing, and I think it could've warranted a spot in the deck for a little while now. I'd run it as a two of alongside KOTR. I don't mind having that many 3cc dudes in my builds though.

Tacosnape

10-25-2010, 06:37 PM

Maindeck Pithing Needle has been helping my Zoo list a ton lately. I've been able to steal more games from Survival, shut off Top against Countertop, protect fragile land openings from Wasteland, completely steamroll Goblins by shutting off Vial against mana-light hands, ditto for Merfolk when they don't get two Islands, and I even snagged a game against Belcher where they dropped it but couldn't activate it turn one.

For the record, this is my most updated Zoo list.

4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Sylvan Library
3 Pithing Needle

Lowkey

10-26-2010, 01:37 AM

First time poster here, although i've been reading these threads for a few weeks now.

I specifically made an account to discuss a possible inclusion of Burning Tree Shaman, and guess what, someone posted the same thing a few hours ago :)

I also think that it would probably be ok to maindeck maybe 2-3 BTS in place of the KoTRs, since it will help you push a bit more damage from Survival decks, and not to mention vial decks and divining top decks.

Pithing needles i'm not too sure if i'd go for it maindeck, but due to the prevalence of survival decks, i'd try to squeeze in 3 on my SB.

I've also tried the big zoo lists, it did pretty well but i noticed most of my wins were from openings that are staple traditional zoo lists, and i dont think that it helps the hard matchups by a lot, and there were times the wastelands color screwed me. But then again, i haven't encountered any countertop decks when i was using it, so i'll test further.

jandax

10-26-2010, 05:42 AM

BTS has been discussed a few months back for a few pages. Some of us here absolutely adore the guy, others can't see cutting anything for it. It's going to come down to personal preference.

BTS is great for all those things you mentioned above. He's also a decent body for 3 mana. So since there are about as many pros to cons, it sort of comes down to personal preference. However, if all you play against is Survival/Vial decks/CB-Top then BTS is looking pretty good. Especially in the big zoo lists as there is Noble Hierarch to get him out a turn earlier.

Tacosnape

10-26-2010, 07:56 AM

I don't agree that Burning Tree Shaman's going to be that big of a help against Survival. It's going to take them, what, five to six activations to launch a full Vengevine combo at you, assuming you get BTS down before they can even start with Survival? Then what? How many times do you think that five to six is going to make the difference when you've got quad Vengevines and two chump blockers on the board? 1 in 5, maybe, being generous, if your burn hand is strong?

jandax

10-26-2010, 09:02 AM

And their fetchland activations, as well as your own, become Shocks. Various things in the deck are activated. It just enables a race scenario if you are already packing ten or more burn spells in the main deck.

Mohr

10-26-2010, 10:53 AM

I wanted to post the Zoo list I have been having success with in my area. It has taken me to a 11-1-1 record in the last two tournaments.

4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

SB
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte

This is obviously more akin to the "Big Zoo" deck, but it has served me well. In my opinion, aggro matchups (and certainly the mirror) are often decided by Knight of Reliquary, and to a lesser extent Tarmogoyf. The Terravore acts as virtual 5th and 6th Knight. The Grove combo, although fairly slow, gives you a solid late game plan against almost any "fair" deck.

The last cards in are the 2 Figure of Destiny. With Hierarch and the upped land count, it is reasonable that you will hit the 6 mana mark to go ultimate. However, it is entirely possible they should be someting like 2 Sylvan Library. I have never had great luck with Library, but I see it in almost ever list. It seems better suited to a so-called "Fast Zoo" list.

Zoo is ever evolving. But this version has been good to me recently. Maybe in the future, it will be better to ratchet up the speed again, but it does not seem worth it at the moment.

Demonic_Attorney

10-28-2010, 06:20 PM

nodahero

10-28-2010, 06:39 PM

From a Storm perspective... I am far more irritated by a Pyrostaic Pillar than a Mindbreak Trap. The Trap is alot easier to fight through and dosn't even necessarily impact the game. At least the pillar will net you 2 damage minimum not to mention it is usually more and makes using AdNos nearly impossible if you have any legit pressure during the game.

Demonic_Attorney

10-28-2010, 07:05 PM

keys

10-28-2010, 08:13 PM

For people that have experience playing both Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap, which do you prefer, and why against combo; specifically ANT, Storm, Doomsday, Aluren and Belcher?

There is really only room for one of them in the board and when you are playing 3-4 copies, indeed, one has to get cut.

I like Mindbreak Trap because you don't have to reveal it, which is a valuable edge. Versus TES, they either have to make you discard or go for Ad-Nauseum. It also stops everything that Belcher can throw at you.

With hate bears and leyline, they just have to wish for the Deathmark or bounce. Pyrostatic Pillar is decent since it inflicts some damage no matter what, but it also hurts you, and that can put you in range of a mini Tendrils or small goblin army.

jandax

10-29-2010, 06:42 AM

Are you saying the MBT is more futile because of Orim's Chant and/ or Silence?

It is more futile because good (rare) Storm players will still Duress or Chant/Silence on their going-off turn against Zoo. The sloppy players will get wrecked by MTB. I personally have MTB in my board and love it. The storm players around here, it seems, aren't very good, and I've won more matches than I've lost against Storm with Zoo.

Otherwise, the Pillar is another fine choice. If you can get a couple creatures down before you land it, simply play tight and ride it to victory. They may bounce/destroy it, but at the cost of time and cards to them which is a huge hole in their gas tank.

justjake54

10-29-2010, 04:56 PM

I don't really like Burning Tree Shaman very much, I think knight of the reliquary is a much bigger threat late game and plus you can't activate his ability with a shaman on board with out hurting yourself. You might get a little bit of damage done to your opponent on their fetches, but most decks either have enough mana or the 3 extra points of damage won't be that relavant. as for BTS against vial decks? zoo should already be beating those most of the time, and survival is at worst a toss up and this guy only trades with vengevines if they didn't give it evasion. I guess this guy might help you win the race against the mirror, except that he hurts you just as much as he hurts them and when he's facing down your opponents KotR you're gonna wish thats what he was.

Demonic_Attorney

10-29-2010, 07:11 PM

socialite

10-29-2010, 08:32 PM

socialite

10-29-2010, 08:34 PM

Dub Post.

justjake54

10-29-2010, 11:47 PM

actually the closest zoo deck to top 8 in GP Columbus was 12th and that was Alix Hatfield. His sideboard did not include MBT or Pillar. and only 2 of the three top 8 zoo decks at GP Madrid played MBT.

troopatroop

10-30-2010, 01:14 AM

I play Silence + MBT. I fear storm, very seriously. I play 1 Ethersworn Cannonist, 3! Silence, and 2 MBT. 6 slots for storm, cuz it's just that good.

jandax

10-30-2010, 04:34 AM

Well you know, it is interesting because all three Zoo decks that topped 8 at GP Madrid choose Mindbreak Trap over Pillar as did the Zoo deck that finished 9th at GP Columbus just missing out on the top 8. I was of the view that the theme of Zoo is fast beats and burn to finish, thus Pillar offers burn and fits in better with the overall theme of the deck; however, so many other Zoo players are playing MBT over Pillar so I wanted to see what the general consensus was on here. Obviously, the prudent Zoo player cannot devote that much sideboard space to play both; especially with Teeg and Canonist as viable options to shutting down/ mitigating against combo.

Jandax, it is kind of funny how you state that the ANT or TES player will just duress or chant the MBT (which is very true) which they cannot do with a resolved Pillar. Yet you still opt to play MBT over Pillar nevertheless. Let me put it to you this way, if you were going into a legacy Grand Prix tomorrow playing Zoo (where there will no doubt be very good TES and ANT players), what would you play, MBT or Pillar?

I stated that a [good] ANT/TES player will still Duress/Chant a Zoo player before they do their thing. Most ANT/TES players aren't good at the decks they play. I would still choose MTB over Pillar, I think, due to success in the past. 90% of the time it's in my opening hand, a strange claim but true it seems. If I were playing Big Zoo I'd go with Pillar because it can come down a turn faster thanks to Hierarch. But now thinking about it I'm kind of on the fence. MBT is a proven winner to me, yet I haven't played with Pillar in my SB in over a year, but I know the value of the card in the Storm matchup. I'm going to have to run some games to figure out some strategery. If you run the card, do you only bring it in against storm/elves? And is it as good of a 2 drop as a Pridemage or Goyf, or is it best to hold off a turn so you can play a turn 1/2 guy then sit on the Pillar?

troopatroop

10-30-2010, 03:13 PM

If I were playing Big Zoo I'd go with Pillar because it can come down a turn faster thanks to Hierarch.

This is impossible, idk what you're thinking here. If anything, it's more important for Big Zoo to have faster answers, since it's a slower deck.

jandax

10-30-2010, 03:20 PM

Well, I'd play a creature or two before dropping the Pillar, not as an auto 2-drop, if that's where you're hung up. That'd also depend on if I had more burn than creatures, etc.

CorpT

10-30-2010, 09:27 PM

I was under the impression that an on color low CC hate piece that coupled well with the burn package most lists already run would be better than a 4 CC off color piece that gets hit by Duress and Orim's Chant/Silence.

Pillar is not particularly good against Belcher and doesn't assure a kill against TES. They see it and they can play around it/bounce it, etc...

MBT is not off color, nor 4cmc (it's effectively colorless at 0 cmc) and requires them to have an extra card and mana the turn they go off if they want to use Silence, or Duress the turn before, but then they cannot IGG.

Additionally, it requires them to keep Duress/Chant in their deck as they are forced to play around it instead of being able to side it out for something that could be worse.

I'm sticking with MBT over Pillar.

Torgeist

11-01-2010, 01:58 PM

Demonic_Attorney

11-01-2010, 06:42 PM

While we can discuss Sb options against combo all day long, the fact is that zoo will always be fighting a losing battle against a competent combo player (of which there aren't many btw, but sadly here in holland we have some extremely competent storm players).

Therefore, I think it's better to just ignore the matchup and focus on the matchups that are actually winnable. I only play 4 teeg in my board, because they're actually usefull against a host of other stuff as well, but if you want a serious chance against storm combo you'd have to devote your entire SB to it.

The fact that some combo decks are a bad match up for Zoo is all the more reason to discuss the matter and find viable and fruitful options to persevere against this archetype.

While it is true that Zoo will, for the most part, always be fighting an uphill battle against Combo (namely ANT & TES), In my view, simply ignoring a large portion of any given metagame and just accepting auto loses is not very prudent thinking. I am completely perplexed and bewildered on this train of thought. I don’t wish to start flaming on here but please, give your head a shake.

You want other dedicated Zoo players to just consider combo to be a write off and accept loses without at least putting up a fight with MBT or Pillars? I know you can’t be serious! If other matchups are so winnable and favorable as you suggested, then why would we need to discuss those matchups? Does it not make more sense to discuss bad match ups and improve on them? Just a wild and really crazy thought I would just throw out there.

Furthermore, I steadfastly disagree with you that a Zoo player would have to devote his or her entire sideboard in order to merely “stand a chance” to beat storm. Although 4x MBT, 4x Pyrostatic Pillar and some number of main deck Gaddock Teegs would probably be manifestly excessive, even that would still not require your whole sideboard and would only comprise of half of it (rounding down). Not to mention to lightning fast clock they are already on with this deck and all creature damage and burn spells resolve unmolested.

Why ignore a very relevant and pivotal issue? One of the key points of threads and forums on any particular deck is to strengthen and mitigate weakness. I fail to discern the basis for your circular logic on just giving up against combo when there are viable options to help Zoo win against Combo.

MBT is not off color, nor 4cmc (it's effectively colorless at 0 cmc) and requires them to have an extra card and mana the turn they go off if they want to use Silence, or Duress the turn before, but then they cannot IGG.

This was going to be my reply but it would seem you beat me to the punch.

Torgeist

11-01-2010, 07:39 PM

The fact that some combo decks are a bad match up for Zoo is all the more reason to discuss the matter and find viable and fruitful options to persevere against this archetype.

While it is true that Zoo will, for the most part, always be fighting an uphill battle against Combo (namely ANT & TES), In my view, simply ignoring a large portion of any given metagame and just accepting auto loses is not very prudent thinking. I am completely perplexed and bewildered on this train of thought. I don’t wish to start flaming on here but please, give your head a shake.

You want other dedicated Zoo players to just consider combo to be a write off and accept loses without at least putting up a fight with MBT or Pillars? I know you can’t be serious! If other matchups are so winnable and favorable as you suggested, then why would we need to discuss those matchups? Does it not make more sense to discuss bad match ups and improve on them? Just a wild and really crazy thought I would just throw out there.

Furthermore, I steadfastly disagree with you that a Zoo player would have to devote his or her entire sideboard in order to merely “stand a chance” to beat storm. Although 4x MBT, 4x Pyrostatic Pillar and some number of main deck Gaddock Teegs would probably be manifestly excessive, even that would still not require your whole sideboard and would only comprise of half of it (rounding down). Not to mention to lightning fast clock they are already on with this deck and all creature damage and burn spells resolve unmolested.

Why ignore a very relevant and pivotal issue? One of the key points of threads and forums on any particular deck is to strengthen and mitigate weakness. I fail to discern the basis for your circular logic on just giving up against combo when there are viable options to help Zoo win against Combo.

This was going to be my reply but it would seem you beat me to the punch.

I am simply saying that it is probably more beneficial to devote your sideboard to matchups where you actually stand a reasonable chance (other then teegs, which can get you random wins against bad combo players and is usefull against other stuff) and hope not to get paired against too much combo then to devote a large part of your sideboard to it and thus diminishing your other matchups. This is a a viable strategy in my view and there is no need to get all offensive about it. It is a strategy I generally follow with all my aggro decks, since the combo players in the dutch meta are extremely competent and it is generally not worthwhile to devote a large part of your sideboard to a mathcup where you will still be at a disadvantage. If you wish to discuss Sb options against combo, by all means do, i am simply suggesting a strategy that I feel is probably more beneficial for this deck in the end.

Demonic_Attorney

11-01-2010, 07:51 PM

Now, because the Storm (combo) players in the dutch metagame are smarter and better players, according to you, and that may or may not be true but I will assume that it is for the purposes of this argument, is that not more of a reason to have viable and tangible sideboard options against this archetype? If they were bad players you might get away with not having these options because you can just clock them or us cards like Teeg. However, if they are sound Storm players, then I think if you stand a reasonable shot you are going to have to sport either MBT or Pillar if not both. Seeing as you play neither, this may be why you can't beat them?

In my view, what you are saying in your past two posts goes as far to suggest that a play set of Mindbreak Trap and/ or Pyrostatic Pillar will not significantly improve the ANT & TES match; if this is so, I would, with respect, dismiss this notion without hesitation.

Torgeist

11-01-2010, 07:54 PM

Demonic_Attorney

11-01-2010, 07:56 PM

Shelldock Isle/ Emrakul combo?

Are we talking about ANT & TES or Doomsday?

Torgeist

11-01-2010, 07:58 PM

Combo decks here are mostly doomsday and hybrids between TES/ANT with some also sporting doomsday.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-01-2010, 08:35 PM

jandax

11-02-2010, 06:50 PM

Torgeist

11-03-2010, 09:17 AM

Good Storm players like who? XD I thought they all played Vintage down in Breda, the good Storm players that is

Otherwise, I sort of agree with ditching bad matchups with Zoo. After all consistency is king, so having a few free sideboard slots is still a step forward. Especially if it aids in winnable matchups.

Ever heard of team nijmegen? :wink:

jandax

11-03-2010, 10:35 AM

Yeah, I have heard of the team. I don't think I know anyone from there, mostly folks here in Utrecht and A'dam

practical joke

11-03-2010, 11:22 AM

I feel ignored,

everyone knows me by now!!!!

or at least should.

OT: Look carefully at the newer combo list, how many cards do you think they can even board in?!
They mostly don't have enough cards to board to cover their protection. Chantwalking/duressing for bolts/helix/hatebears or anything is still a very valid play.

jandax

11-03-2010, 02:57 PM

IrishLegend

11-03-2010, 07:05 PM

has anyone played that ooze combo? Just wondering how to play that matchup, and what people are siding in.

Demonic_Attorney

11-03-2010, 09:16 PM

In my experiences, I've given up on the storm combo matchup. Mostly in part because almost every time I play it's against Pulp Fiction, and that motherfucker knows what's up. Any competent player will either play with protection before they go off, or just see your hate and board according and play around it.

You have been around from the start of this forum and have ostensibly been playing this deck for quite some time? I am quite surprised and disappointed that you would throw in the towel against ANT and TES. Forget the fact that Mystic Tutor's banning took the wind out of the sails of these decks (especially ANT), Zoo, although in tough against Storm has beaten them in latter rounds of some large scale legacy events. On a side note, I believe Zoo’s worst matchup is against 43 Lands not TES or ANT (post board), I digress.

When playing at a large scale event like a GP and playing on day two when everybody there is most likely 7-2, 6-1-1 or 8-0, they are all very competent players and that is putting it mildly. I categorically reject the notion that “a competent Storm player“ will always be in a position to negate and thwart MBT, Pillar and Teeg. This is factually incorrect and there will be times when the prudent Zoo player will be in a position with MBT, Pillar or Teeg to beat even the most skilled Storm player.The cumulative totality of even just two of these foregoing cards in combination with one another can be of significant assistance in defeating ANT. Now, in addition to going off they have to chant, duress and bounce, consecutively, before going off all while being grounded and pounded.

With respect, a lot of storm players "know what is up". You think Cook didn't know what was up in his day 2, game 3 Zoo match up at GP Columbus? Or Do Ahn didn't know what was up when he was playing against Zoo with ANT? Of course they did and they still lost to Zoo playing the hate cards. I am betting that Pulp Fiction is not a better Storm player then those two aforementioned exemplary Storm players.

For the ANT or Storm player merely playing around a lot of hate (MBT, Pillar, Teeg, etc.) when Zoo is arguably the fastest clock in the format attacking and burning you each turn it is usually enough, and forcing the Storm player to play around your abundant amount of hate can serve its purpose. Playing protection before going off is obviously a sound and logical strategy; however, under pressure and on a lightning fast clock it is easier said then done. When they see all the hate it is usually too late and playing around all of it can be very difficult. If you are making things difficult for them you substantially increase your chances of being able to win. They can't duress all of your MBT and Pillars and bounce Teegs without some significant delay that is usually fatal to a good solid Zoo build.

A lot has been said about good and competent Storm players; however, the same can be said about Zoo players, especially in the combo match up. It takes skill, experience and timing on the part of the Zoo player as well and they can’t afford to make mistakes and bad plays particularly in this pivotal match up.

In this regard, I will give you an example of Zoo owning Storm. I am well aware that this is only one example and if necessary, I will post a whole bunch more. I believe this is a prime example because it features, in my view, one of the best Storm players in the world today in a tournament he had success in losing to Zoo. According to some Zoo players in this forum, not only is it a very difficult match up but it is an unwinnable match up so I need only adduce one example. Bryant Cook only lost two matches in the 15 round Swiss at GP Columbus and this is an excerpt of his tournament report told from the Storm player’s point of view:

"Round Nine: Tom Ross with Zoo

Game One: I get FLOODED, I mean I have six lands in play, with two still in hand. I eventually Ponder into Lion’s Eye Diamond and win.

Sideboarding: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Chrome Mox, +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Wipeaway

Game Two: He has a turn one Wild Nactl, two Gaddeck Teeg, turn three 3x Burn Spells. I’m out, it’s been real.

Game Three: I cast Diminishing Returns on my turn two, I have all shorts of gas but nothing to do with it, I ponder into nothing, shuffle, draw Echoing Truth. He plays Gaddeck Teeg, next turn, Pillar. I then draw Tendrils of Agony. I go to Echoing Truth Gaddeck Teeg and he REB’s it. I scoop, he reveals two Mindbreak trap."

In any event, the aforementioned would not have been possible without playing at least some tech against Storm and ANT so again, giving up against this match up I believe is not sound strategy. Particularly so for me who loves playing Zoo but has a fair amount of Storm and ANT in my metagame right now. I like my deck (Zoo), will be much more resilient and will not pussy out against a bad match up and beating challenging match ups is also very rewarding. I steadfastly refuse to accept to auto lose to a deck that can be beaten as the evidence clearly indicates.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

11-03-2010, 11:57 PM

CorpT

11-04-2010, 01:12 AM

Doesn't seem too fair of an analysis of the Tendrils Combo vs Zoo matchup.

To sum it up:

Game 1. Cook combos out.
Game 2. Ross has the godhand.
Game 3. Cook casts Diminishing Returns into garbage and loses.

But it seems the point you're trying to get across is Storm isn't an autoloss to Zoo.

But those types of things happen all the time. If you're giving up on Storm/TES/ANT/Whatever, you're really doing yourself a disservice. It has been my experience that 4 sideboard cards, plus REB is a lot of pressure against ANT/TES. It's not an ideal matchup by any means, but it is certainly winnable. And if that means the difference between 5-2 and 6-1, I'm ok with that.

I think people have forgotten that Mystical Tutor is banned. Playing against TES/ANT is certainly not as bad as it used to be and is much more winnable now. I think 4 anti-combo cards, plus REB/Pyro that I have anyway is probably enough. I don't want to side out any speed, so MBT is ideal as it costs 0, but I have quite a few dead/slow cards that are not good against combo.

Amon Amarth

11-04-2010, 01:47 AM

I'll throw my 2 cents in here as well. Depending on your meta it might actually be better EV to board little for the Combo match or perhaps nothing like Mindbreak Trap/ Pillar that is useless in other matchups. 2 Teeg and 2 REB is much better than the 4 PTE in your MD and have much broader applications as well. The matchup isn't insurmountable but I don't think your going to be happy with a board full of narrow answers. If your meta is filled with Combo decks it's probably going to better to just switch to something Blue.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-04-2010, 03:20 AM

If I played in big tournaments then of course I'd run shit in the board for the matchup, but I don't because I've discovered that I'm not a big tournament player. I can't deal with douchebag after douchebag, or the grinding. Call me a puss or whatever, I just don't like em. I haven't played since the Atlanta 5k. Zoo is my favorite deck and I enjoy playing it, and ever since Reanimator started raping it just went downhill. LOLZ SHUT YOU OFF A COLOR, TUTOR BAN, GET TENDRILS, OH WAIT VENGEVINE IS PISSED AND ONLY LOSES TO PTE. The format seems miserable for me, a Zoo player, atm.

I know the deck can beat storm, but it takes a lot of luck. The extra 3 damage you get in there with Nacatl with the banning of Tutor does count, I know. I'm not saying give up, I just don't run those board cards when I have to.

jandax

11-04-2010, 08:15 AM

I'd like to share a bit of info I put together for a coming article of mine, it seems to be relevant to this conversation.

I made a wee spreadsheet of the past SCG Legacy open top 16 results, post banning of Mystical tutor, or from Denver to Charlotte.

http://i.imgur.com/n9K6j.jpg

Vengivival and all of its versions from Madness to Necrotic Ooze have been doing well in this metagame. Storm decks? One gets into the top 16/8 every tournament. Zoo has also underperformed, considering the popularity of good matchups like Goblins and Merfolk.

Now that there is two sides of the arguement, the small tournament player like LB, and the crowd represented with the SCG results, it seems neither right nor wrong to forego a Storm matchup. LB probably knows all of the guys against whom he battles, and I think the rest of us agree that going into a big event, Storm decks aren't our(zoo players) biggest worry.

Is that a fair distillation of what's going on?

practical joke

11-04-2010, 08:26 AM

Sure it's a valid play, luckily only the good storm players do it (meaning the vast majority of storm players don't and will get wrecked by that Mindbreak Trap)

Were any of you guys in Utrecht the other weekend for the tournament Gijs put on in the Joker?

hell no...

besides that, about the cook vs zoo match 3

How many cards did he side in against combo?

I see teegs, rebs, pillar and MBT...I don't know but that sounds like a 12-14 card sideboard nearly fully devoted to storm.
I mean that's dedication, but you will definately let you other match-ups unimproved. ( really, you'll hardly need reb's against merfolk, you'll squash them normally as well)

jandax

11-04-2010, 08:33 AM

Indeed, that is almost a transitional sideboard. With such a sideboard it'd be pretty hard for Tom to lose the matchup given average or better draws.

And REB's are still great against merfolk. I've lost to the deck. I want to prevent that from happening as much as possible.

Demonic_Attorney

11-04-2010, 05:32 PM

If I played in big tournaments then of course I'd run shit in the board for the matchup, but I don't because I've discovered that I'm not a big tournament player.

I didn't realize this and would have figured different. To be clear, I am thinking in the context of a large scale legacy event where the metagame is somewhat uncertain but you are expecting Storm nevertheless. If what you play is in a small local metagame, I respect that.

What I found amusing about the Cook vs. Ross game 3 match is that Ross didn't even need the 2x MBT's that were in his hand and they could have both been lands and he still would have won easily with just Teeg and REB. 2x MBT or 1x MBT and a combination of other hate gets around duress pretty good as well. So in that particular instance, even a duress and the bounce spell would not have saved the Storm player. CorpT is right though, it does happen all the time, or at least more then you would probably expect.

How is that an unfair example RaNDoMxGeSTuReS? Game 1 Storm combo's out and in game 2 and 3 it gets hated out. That is what Storm does against Zoo that doesn't play hate against them; they go off and combo out. However, when the prudent and prepared Zoo player boards in some hate, they can completely negate Storm. Doesn't happen all the time, but as long has it still happens a fair amount, I am satisfied.

Regarding the Vengevine Madness match up, that is a whole different kettle of fish. Crypts and Relics are not that good in this match up and just don't have the power of extirpate and obviously path of exile is key. I know Hatfield had some extra copies of STP in the board to compliment the main deck PTE and most of the creatures in the deck at least trade with Vengevine. The problem is both path and swords are useless against Progenitus and Emrakul. Grips and Pridemages make Survival staying on the board quite difficult. I like that deck a lot as well. For some reason, a lot of the U/G/ Madness players have been complaining that the Zoo match up is hard for them. I know Ethersworn Canonist can be a house against them.

Mark Sun

11-04-2010, 05:57 PM

Regarding the Vengevine Madness match up, that is a whole different kettle of fish. Crypts and Relics are not that good in this match up and just don't have the power of extirpate and obviously path of exile is key. I know Hatfield had some extra copies of STP in the board to compliment the main deck PTE and most of the creatures in the deck at least trade with Vengevine. The problem is both path and swords are useless against Progenitus and Emrakul. Grips and Pridemages make Survival staying on the board quite difficult. I like that deck a lot as well. For some reason, a lot of the U/G/ Madness players have been complaining that the Zoo match up is hard for them. I know Ethersworn Canonist can be a house against them.

When I initially started piloting Vengevine Survival, the first iteration was a UG build, which was incredibly inconsistent. I got massacred by the speed based Zoo builds, but was okay against a more traditional build. From a Zoo player's standpoint, Crypt can still be fine against Vengevine Survival, as it still forces them to either find an answer to it, or go to the backup plan. Without Squee in most builds to recoup the loss of a creature card, in forcing them to grab a Pridemage/Zealot, Zoo can still gain quite a bit of tempo in those situations.

I don't see Iona being a good option against Zoo, so it's actually quite arguable that the entire Retainers package would be sided out in this matchup. Anyone think Tariff is a good idea here?

practical joke

11-05-2010, 03:15 AM

Tarif is white...Iona will most likely be on a removal color since iona won't stick around for long if you don't

OldOD

11-05-2010, 03:50 AM

The best sideboard answer to vengevine is also the simplest one. COP Green. you may laugh, until you actually cast it, and they cant win. Even game 2 when they have the progen plan. Cop green may seem silly, but its the nuts.

jandax

11-05-2010, 05:16 AM

That's a heavy dedication to Survival hate in the sideboard. Would this only be an option for a Survival heavy metagame like the SCG opens? And how many would you run, and over what?

Nelis

11-05-2010, 09:22 AM

Why Run COP Green? You could just as well just add STP or PTE (depending on the mainboard configuration) to the sideboard. They're less narrow than COP: green and are not susceptible to hate cards.

practical joke

11-05-2010, 09:30 AM

peacekeeper..also keeps the fish at bay

Nelis

11-05-2010, 09:53 AM

You have creatures too.

practical joke

11-05-2010, 10:58 AM

got a point there.

troopatroop

11-05-2010, 12:30 PM

Why would you play Cop:Green when you could play Pithing Needle!? You have Bolts to kill Trygon/Qasali, and you can't beat it on mana cost.

Mark Sun

11-05-2010, 03:20 PM

Tarif is white...Iona will most likely be on a removal color since iona won't stick around for long if you don't

Like I said, against GW, I would imagine that they would board out the Iona package against you. This isn't Reanimator, where you have to deal with a t2 or t3 Iona. With the extra removal serving as disruption (t1 Hierarch, can't leave Retainers in play, etc), you should have a more developed board position by the time any Iona shenanigans are attempted.

OldOD

11-06-2010, 03:50 AM

troop. they sideboard into progenitus... nice pithing needle.

jandax

11-06-2010, 04:41 AM

peacekeeper..also keeps the fish at bay

haha, oh no you di'nt!

Fuzzy

11-06-2010, 09:07 AM

haha, oh no you di'nt!

practical joke, see?

jandax

11-06-2010, 05:12 PM

practical joke, see?

http://files.sharenator.com/3163r5y_Irony-s500x375-13932-580.jpg

Nelis

11-06-2010, 10:06 PM

Carbonize could be an option for Vengevine maybe? CMC of 3 is a bit iffy though.

CorpT

11-06-2010, 11:05 PM

Carbonize could be an option for Vengevine maybe? CMC of 3 is a bit iffy though.

How is this better than more Swords and Paths? 3 mana for a bad burn spell? Uhhh... no thanks.

Nelis

11-07-2010, 05:21 AM

I wouldnt say its better BUT it also deals damage to players which is a plus.

jandax

11-07-2010, 07:05 AM

If it costed 2, instead of 3 it'd be good. And let's be fiar, 3cc for Zoo isn't a deal breaker.

jandax

11-07-2010, 04:01 PM

Sorry for the double post, has anyone played enough UG/Survival decks to want to add cards to the SB? More STP was for their old plan, nowadays the better players are boarding into NO-PRO packages, so what is one to do?

Dispense Justice? That gets countered unless you have REB protection?

Tariff? Lose your goyf/KotR + tariff

Runed Halo?

Crazy Eddie

11-08-2010, 03:05 AM

Perhaps Wing Shards? It workes quite good against NoPro, and also workes against Reanimator and Show & Tell. The only problem would be that your opponent can play around it by attacking with both Progenitus and a random basking Rootwalla (or he can counter it). But given the mana, you can easily increase the storm count by bolting something/someone first. Unfortunately, it isn't quite good against the Vengevine part of Vengevine decks.

jandax

11-08-2010, 04:18 AM

Yeah, it's terrible against VV, but sideboards should be built to beat sideboards, not maindecks.

practical joke

11-08-2010, 06:25 AM

Yeah, it's terrible against VV, but sideboards should be built to beat sideboards, not maindecks.

really, so you board in teegs, mindbreak traps and ethersworn cannonist to beat the Storm-sideboard?!

CorpT

11-08-2010, 09:09 AM

Runed Halo?

This has potential. The double white is a little tough, but Halo can really shut down a lot of cards on it's own and is very flexible. If they're NoPro - Progenitus. If they're VV, Vengevine. If they're Storm, Tendrils. Unfortunately, you can't stop Goblins with RH, but you could stop Belcher. Runed Halo seems like it has a lot of potential. Especially as an enchantment, most decks have fewer answers to it than normal. Storm can kill Teeg/Canonist with several things, but a smaller subset to deal with Enchantments.

jandax

11-08-2010, 02:36 PM

really, so you board in teegs, mindbreak traps and ethersworn cannonist to beat the Storm-sideboard?!

With Wishes, does storm really sideboard in stuff for the Zoo matchup? Maybe storm's the exception to the theory? I dunno

OldOD

11-08-2010, 04:55 PM

not runed halo. cop green. it gets there. trust me. stops progens AND vengevines AND predeators that would blow up halos... i love how everyone just assumes its bad, its actually absurd.

CorpT

11-08-2010, 06:38 PM

not runed halo. cop green. it gets there. trust me. stops progens AND vengevines AND predeators that would blow up halos... i love how everyone just assumes its bad, its actually absurd.

And sucks up mana every turn and wouldn't work on turn 2. If you can't stop a Trygon with Bolts, Paths, Chains, etc... well, you probably need more of those in your deck.

OldOD

11-08-2010, 11:33 PM

yea man it really sucks using mana when the opponent cant win the game.

CorpT

11-09-2010, 12:17 AM

yea man it really sucks using mana when the opponent cant win the game.

Except that there are plenty of reasons to use Runed Halo over CoP:Green.

A) Runed Halo is far more flexible. CoP:G stops Vengeine, Progenitus.... Tarmogoyf?
Runed Halo stops: Vengevine, Progenitus, Tendrils, Charbelcher, Necrotic Ooze, etc... You know, problem decks for Zoo.

B) CoP:G uses mana every single turn. Runed Halo uses mana once. This is especially important because they get to attack for 0 mana. If they have 4 Vengevines (entirely likely) you need 4 mana every single turn completely devoted to stopping Vengevines. This is especially important if they vomit on turn 3 after your turn 2 CoP:G and you have no mana up. Or when they have 4 Vengevines and you're stuck on 3 mana. Or they Wasteland your mana. Runed Halo stops them cold as soon as you play it. Runed Halo lets you continue to play threats, removal and burn. CoP:G requires you to devote all of your mana to it.

OldOD

11-09-2010, 03:29 AM

Demonic_Attorney

11-09-2010, 03:09 PM

Sims

11-09-2010, 03:34 PM

this wasnt about what was the better board card, it was about what is better against survival. runed halo stops one way of them beating you, name vengevine and they get progenitus, or just trygon predator (which you can remove obviously, but its there, progenitus is the more important one) if you name progenitus they can roll you over with vengevines, or even go the jitte aggro strategy, cop green stops all of that, who cares about investing mana into it, they cant win. you can keep playing the cards you like and losing, ill play my cards and keep winning.

While I don't approve of the Halo idea in this deck either...

How the hell are you developing a board position while you're holding mana open every turn for a CoP? If you have to hold up 4-5 mana a turn to stop their vines against stifles, wastes, or what have you... Are you trying to deck them?

What if you're against GW Survival, sure, stops their vines, goyfs, knights... they still have qasali and can just Loyal Retainer out Iona or Emrakul.

CorpT

11-09-2010, 03:45 PM

Double white for what it does, doesn't seem to viable. I would never even consider (in this legacy metagame which is already quite broad) using COP Green or Runed Halo. Zoo has so many strong and amazing board options right now available to it that I find myself having to cut sideboard options that I really want to play but can't because of the tight space. Unless were talking about a small and narrow local metagame, I honestly can't see considering either of these two foregoing cards as adept sideboard options.

Moreover, has anybody seen a Zoo deck top 8 or even have a good finish at any large scale legacy event in say the last year with Burning Tree Shaman in it maindeck?

That's the thing. Legacy is becoming much, much less broad. Look at the most recent SCG5k:

Top 16:
4 UG Madness
2 Ooze Survival
1 GW Survival
3 Nelson Rock
1 ANT
1 Dreadstill
1 Sneak n Show
1 Welder Reanimator
1 Countertop
1 Goblins

Splitting them out:

Bad MUs
7 Vengevine Decks
1 ANT
1 Sneak n Show

Split MUs:
1 Countertop
1 Welder Reanimator

Good MUs:
1 Goblins
3 Nelson Rock
1 Dreadstill

If you're ignoring Survival decks because you don't think they're part of the metagame... You need something to stop Vengevine. There is no question about that. If you don't, you're giving up almost 50% of your MUs before you sit down. Vengevine is literally 44% of the top 16. How are you dealing with that?

jandax

11-09-2010, 04:37 PM

Check it, another time, Vengevival is a huge part of the SCG metagame.

http://i.imgur.com/wD6jX.jpg

If one were running zoo, what would they be boarding to combat a bad matchup that has a Jund-esque grip on the field?

Demonic_Attorney

11-09-2010, 06:31 PM

That's the thing. Legacy is becoming much, much less broad. Look at the most recent SCG5k:
If you're ignoring Survival decks because you don't think they're part of the metagame... You need something to stop Vengevine. There is no question about that. If you don't, you're giving up almost 50% of your MUs before you sit down. Vengevine is literally 44% of the top 16. How are you dealing with that?

First off, even if I accept what you are saying about a narrow metagame and Vengevine/ Survival being the best and most played deck, I still would not adopt the approach of playing COP Green or Runed Halo as answers as there are much better cards Zoo can play in this regard.

Secondly, Star City is one store running an event in one particular area. Although I am sure their are people that travel from far to go to SCG legacy events, I definitely know more people travel to GP events especially when they are legacy as the legacy GP in Madrid less then a year ago was the biggest sanctioned tournament in magic history with a very broad metagame. Look at the last GP in Columbus in August and its metagame and tell me that is not broad?

GP Columbus Day 2 Metagame Breakdown

Zoo 20
Bant 16
CounterTop 12
Merfolk 10
Goblins 10
Aluren 7
Land 6
Belcher 6
ANT 5
Landstill 7
Aggro CounterTop 4
Legacy Burn 4
Survival 4
BUG 4
Junk 4
Enchantress 3
RUG 3
Doomsday 2
Dredge 2
Enlightened Tutor 2
Show and Tell 2
Sneak Attack 2
Hypergenesis 1
Faeries 1
UG Madness 1
Affinity 1
UB Thopter/Sword 1
Depths 1
Red Control 1
StifleNaught 1
Servant/Grindstone 1

The Variety of Legacy

by Blake Rasmussen

"More so than any other format, Legacy gives players options. With a card pool that spans the entire history of Magic, new decks and old cards are always threatening to step back into the limelight. And with the banning of Mystical Tutor, Grand Prix Columbus is one of the most diverse tournaments in terms of viable deck choices in recent memory.

A quick scan of the top tables and the Grand Prix Trial winning deck lists reveals nearly 20 viable decks.
Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo looked to be battling it out for the most popular decks among the top 50 or so tables, but they faced some steep competition from some known and unknown decks.

Reanimator, thought to be in trouble with the loss of Mystical Tutor, put up a strong showing as players were bringing anything from Iona, the Shield of Emeria to Stormtide Leviathon in play from their graveyard. Also looking to utilize the graveyard were several Dredge decks hoping to catch players without their Tormod's Crypts or Relics of Progenitus.

Noticeably absent, however, was the other primary Mystical Tutor deck besides Reanimator, Ad Nauseam, as combo players looked toward other decks. There was a smattering of Belcher, Aluren, and Dream Halls near the top in round four. Belcher tries to play a quick Goblin Charbelcher or Empty the Warrens for the quick kill, while Aluren wants to simply resolve its namesake card to infinitely bounce Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy. Dream Halls, a deck that has been on the fringe of playability for a while, utilizes Show and Tell – one of the most popular cards in the room not named Brainstorm or Force of Will – to play a quick Dream Halls followed by Conflux and multiple Cruel Ultimatums.

Another deck that utilizes Show and Tell is Hypergenesis, and at least one player was seen attacking an Emrakul, the Aeon's torn into his opponent's very small Merfolk.

Counterbalance decks of all shapes and sizes were also making their presence known. Most were using Jace, and most were also Bant colored. Almost all of them had Tarmogoyf to hold the fort while they locked their opponent down with the Coldsnap enchantment.

Seismic Assault/Life from the Loam decks were also eating up spots at the top tables, most of them sporting Dark Confidants and a Burning Wish sideboard.

42 Land, a recent darling of the Legacy circuit, had a number of players sitting at 4-0 early on. The combination of Life from the Loam, Explore, Manabond and friends remained popular.
A number of other decks had a few lone representatives still rocking undefeated records, including Burn, Survival Madness, Junk, and Faeries.

Unlike the last Grand Prix in Columbus, this one looks like it'll be less about one deck and more about how many decks can possibly co-exist in one room."

CorpT

11-09-2010, 11:18 PM

Secondly, Star City is one store running an event in one particular area. Although I am sure their are people that travel from far to go to SCG legacy events, I definitely know more people travel to GP events especially when they are legacy as the legacy GP in Madrid less then a year ago was the biggest sanctioned tournament in magic history with a very broad metagame.

So you're prepping for Providence?

I don't get it. The SCG5ks are the biggest Legacy tournaments being run in NA. They're dramatically influencing the metagame. They are being broadcast on GGSLive. They are being written about extensively.

If you choose to ignore the prevalence of Vengevine and the importance of SGC5ks, that's cool. But you're probably going to be in a vast minority. Frankly, I'd like to be prepared for Vengevine and not delude myself into thinking it won't be played or that Zoo has a good MU against it. That's why I'll be testing Runed Halo against Vengevines. You can keep your Grips in your board for Counterbalance.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

11-09-2010, 11:24 PM

So you're prepping for Providence?

I don't get it. The SCG5ks are the biggest Legacy tournaments being run in NA. They're dramatically influencing the metagame. They are being broadcast on GGSLive. They are being written about extensively.

If you choose to ignore the prevalence of Vengevine and the importance of SGC5ks, that's cool. But you're probably going to be in a vast minority. Frankly, I'd like to be prepared for Vengevine and not delude myself into thinking it won't be played or that Zoo has a good MU against it. That's why I'll be testing Runed Halo against Vengevines. You can keep your Grips in your board for Counterbalance.

I've had someone Runed Halo my Steppe Lynx before, thus it must be good.

Crazy Eddie

11-10-2010, 05:54 AM

I've had someone Runed Halo my Steppe Lynx before, thus it must be good.

And dit he win that game? And if he did so, was it because of the Halo or despite the Runed Halo?

Nelis

11-10-2010, 09:27 AM

What exactly makes Vengevine Survival such a bad match-up for Zoo? I mean we have enough ways to get rid of Survival and Vengevines are fairly easy answered with STP of PTE.

I only played the matchup once and wasn't in the best of health so I do not have very much experience against the deck. I did win (thanks to wheel of sun and moon) but my opponent wasnt that good at piloting it either.

JamesTheSmoker

11-15-2010, 09:39 PM

I don't know why, you American guys don't run the big zoo version.
In Italy we run the big zoo version, and we use to top8 in more or less 100 people tournaments twice a month.
Starting from the 2 japanese lists that Saito posted on ChFi months ago, we got two lists that play very well against Vengevine and the rest of the metagame, one running bloodbraid elf, woolly thoctar and a few less early game drop, and another one running more early game drops like lavamancers and the stoneforge tools with sword of light and shadow, both with 6 exile effects maindeck and 4 KotR.
My actual list is

Maindeck:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

3 Lightning Bolt
2 Arc Trail
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard

2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Gaddock Teeg

Actually in test I'm pretty 70-30 VS UG Madness, 80-20 VS Survival Bant, 70-30 VS GW Survival, 60-40 VS Ooze survival, 60-40 VS ATS and 70-30 VS Random Survival based decks.
In tournament I'm 5-2 (games) VS UG Madness, 3-1-1 (games) VS ATS, 2-0 (games) VS Survival Bant, 2-0 (games) VS Progenitus Survival.

With this list I played 4 big tournaments and 1 local tournament:

1st - 100 players - top4, losing vs my friend with almost the same deck but with bloodbraid
2nd - 97 players - 5-1-1 9th per rating losing vs enchantress and tie with ATS
3rd - 96 players - top8, losing vs ant
4th - 106 players - top8, losing vs urb stiflenaught
5th - 35 players - 1st, never lose, neither a game.

I think that this zoo version can fit well in the actual metagame also in your country, if you would like to play it.
Bye.

Sigar

11-16-2010, 02:40 AM

JamesTheSmoker

11-16-2010, 10:02 AM

Can you please explain the following numbers? Why they are in your deck, and why you ended with that amount of each card.

3 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

3 Lightning Bolt
2 Arc Trail

2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sure, I can.

3 noble hierarch - in this version you need more mana to cast higher drops like pw and 4 KotR; I tested with 4 but with 22 lands 3 are enough
2 grim lavamancer - very good but 3 are too much, because you don't have many cards to remove in your graveyard, they are more useful to keep alive tarmogoyf and KotR

2 elspeth - is the card that makes difference and destabilize the board in your favor
1 ajani - cause you can't play 3 elspeth; I was looking for another drop that can make difference in many MU, and ajani got a big impact on control MU and mirror matches, keeping tapped dual lands, creatures and so on...

3 lightning bolt - the 4th became 1 arc trail
2 arc trail - cause it's obviously good against those survival who run a lot of mana dorks. This deck has a good percentage of winning against those decks mining the opponent mana base with wasteland and killing mana dorks, so this is a card that fits perfectly in this strategy.

2 sylvan library - use to play one, but without stoneforge I need the second one, it's a good engine to spend life in excess and keep a sort of card advantage and a higher draw quality.
1 sword of light and shadow - stp and pte are the main removal of this format, a creature equipped with sword can win the game in a very few turns. It's better than jitte and sword of fire ice. Test it.

BantFTW

11-16-2010, 03:44 PM

I woudn't go ajani and arc trail seems a meh to :(
But, why would you go play big zoo over traditional?
Against what matchups it's better?

against tes, survival, control or?

Curby

11-16-2010, 04:03 PM

Well in his first post he seemed to indicate that it does well against decks with with Survival or Vengevine. Salt accordingly. =)

Does anyone have a link to Saito's big zoo lists or can you repost them here? I'd like to see what they were going for.

JamesTheSmoker

11-16-2010, 08:48 PM

Big Zoo is better in this meta.
With the traditional version you can never win against survival, because you have the 2/3 at cc 1 and they got the 4/3 at cc 0.
In big zoo you can play more stp/pte, cause you need less creatures in play to win, they are bigger than traditional.
This means also that you are less afraid to see your opponent playing Rhox War Monk, or mass removal like engineered explosives, which often made 3x1 in the traditional version, and pernicious deed, card that unaffect planeswalkers.
Big zoo it's not so fast like the older, so you have a worst MU VS Goblins and Merfolks, but even not worst than 70/30 (I think the older one was 80/20), and worst MU VS ANT, nothing that you cannot adjust with the sideboard. Also the older version could win only with SB cards, so in effect nothing changed, except for that in my metagame, in 100 players, they are 2/3 ANT and 1/2 Enchantress...nothing to worry about, I think.
You got better MU against Survival based decks, rogue decks like jund and rock, landstill, jace landeed, dreadstill, faeries and bant, or in general to those who run counterbalance, explosives and pernicious.

My tests:

Bant: can win only with turbo-progenitus in 3rd/4th turn
Survival: a hard start it's always difficult to contain, but in a normal game, killing mana dorks and removing a few creatures, with the help of one qasali is quite win. Post SB we have a lot of solution like pithing needle and faerie macabre, which are not mana intensive, keeping us in condition to run our game while killing the other one.
Goblins: can win only with the perfect hand and if we draw less than 3 removal effect
Merfolks: can win only if we fall in screw or flood
Jace Landeed: an intelligent resource managment can drive you to victory easy, especially with KotR, Wastelands and Planeswalkers.
Landstill: as Jace Landeed, the only card that you wish not to see in your opponent board is humility
Dreadstill: Lock of cbtop in the 1st 2 turns and turbo-dreadnought in the 3rd is the only way he has to win, and he has to got the right drop on the top. Like 60-40.
Rock: 50/50, it depends on how you start and on how many denial he can do in the earlier game

Ant: horrible
Enchantress: quite horrible, but you can win with denial on enchanted dual lands or drawing a lot of qasali pridemage

I didn't tested yet with Team America or other decks because thay aren't played in my metagame.

I found the last Saito's article, about the Tokyo Eternal Fetsival in September, 20, but I didn't find the 1st appearance of the deck, which I think it was about July, always in Japan.

The list that won the tournament was:

* 4 Wild Nacatl
* 3 Noble Hierarch
* 2 Figure of Destiny
* 2 Grim Lavamancer
* 4 Tarmogoyf
* 4 Qasali Pridemage
* 4 Knight of the Reliquary
* 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
* 4 Lightning Bolt
* 4 Swords to Plowshares
* 2 Path to Exile
* 1 Umezawas Jitte
* 2 Sylvan Library
* 1 Forest
* 1 Plains
* 1 Mountain
* 2 Plateau
* 2 Savannah
* 2 Taiga
* 4 Arid Mesa
* 4 Wooded Foothills
* 2 Windswept Heath
* 2 Wasteland
* 1 Karakas

* Sideboard
* 3 Pyroblast
* 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
* 2 Price of Progress
* 2 Krosan Grip
* 2 Tormods Crypt
* 1 Bojuka Bog
* 1 Red Elemental Blast
* 1 Gaddock Teeg

There were 245 players, the top8 was:

1 - Big Zoo
2 - Team America
3 - Sneak and Show
4 - Saito's Merfolk
5 - Bant
6 - ANT
7 - Merfolk monoU
8 - Elf Combo

And this was the metagame

32 Merfolk
30 Zoo
14 Bant Aggro (With Natural Order)
12 Goblins
11 Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 Survival of the Fittest (With Loyal Retainer reanimation, with Madness)
9 Show and Tell (Hive Mind、Sneak Attack)
7 Stax (Mono-Brown、Mono-White, etc.)
6 Dredge
6 Mono Red
6 The Rock
6 Countertop ‘Goyf
5 Team America
5 White Weenie
5 G/W Aggro
5 Eva Green (With Dark Depths)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Reanimator
4 Elves
4 Landstill
3 Enchantress
2 New Horizons
2 Aggro Loam

For sure there were less survival than today, but I repeat, I don't think it's a big problem for big zoo.
If you are interested in, the original article is there: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/examining-the-top-8-decks-at-tokyo%E2%80%99s-eternal-festival/

I hope you can give me more considerations about the deck after testing.
Bye.

IrishLegend

11-17-2010, 06:39 PM

Got a question for you Smoker. Did you test Figure of Destiny? If so how did you feel about him?

JamesTheSmoker

11-17-2010, 07:29 PM

I tested with

- 1 ajani - 2 arc trail
+ 1 figure of destiny + 1 ranger of eos and the 4th lightning bolt, but I loved ranger more than figure.

I think that is a good card but not so good vs survival, cause it need so much mana to become a 4/4 and I prefer to keep mana for creatures that are bigger in any situation and removal effects. And it's more difficult to play it, if you run 3 wastelands. Maybe with only 2 wastelands it's better, but I don't ensure that is better than having 3 wastelands. Many times you simply win killing mana dorks and destroying a dual of the right colour leaving the opponent with some problem, if you run only 2 of them it's difficult to draw 1 but if you play 3 it's not so impossible to cast 2.

Bokonon

11-17-2010, 08:24 PM

Big Zoo is better in this meta.
With the traditional version you can never win against survival, because you have the 2/3 at cc 1 and they got the 4/3 at cc 0.
In big zoo you can play more stp/pte, cause you need less creatures in play to win, they are bigger than traditional.

I made an audible to big zoo over my more traditional build for SCG Nashville, and I have to say that while what you're saying seems good on paper, it just didn't play out for me in real games. I ultimately went 5-3 in the swiss, and my losses (all 1-2) were to two Vengevival decks, and Adam Prosak with his U/W Counterbalance. In both of my Vengevine matches, the games I won were the ones that played out basically like traditional zoo - Nacatl into Pridemage into removal/burn/death of opponent. The ones I lost were the ones that you would think would exemplify the thinking you are espousing here. I had more than one game where I had Hierarch into t2 Knight or 2-mana threat plus a mana open for removal, but just got blown out t3 or t4 by Vengevines mixed with removal from my opponent. The reality is that yes, sure, you can get a Knight out fast, but honestly a Knight isn't generally too large by the time they're hitting the yard with their 'Vines. Yes, it blocks better than a Kird Ape in the midgame, but a T2 Knight came down for me usually as a 3/3. Maybe a 4/4 in a few games.

However, even this misses the point. Most of the Big Zoo variants I've seen (and the one I played) had even >less< room for extra Swords/Path than traditional zoo does. They actually run more creatures than little zoo to fit in those extra copies of KotR, and the space in the deck is even further eaten away by the larger landbase (22/23 instead of 21 in several builds), and the inclusion of planeswalkers (I ran two Elspeth). Saying the deck has more room for white removal is only really true if you're giving it spots that the deck needs for its burn suite.

That is not to say that the deck is bad, or that it is not strong against several archetypes. In fact, my 1-2 vs Prosak would have easily been a 0-2 had I not had the top decked Elspeth to crack through his CB lock game 2. But to say that it is a correct meta call because of its performance against Survival with Vengevine is just not backed up by my (albeit limited) experience. Your mileage may vary.

For reference, my decklist was:

Creatures:
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary

Planeswalkers:
2x Elspeth, Knight-errant

Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Path to Exile
2x Sylvan Library

Land:
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
3x Windswept Heaht
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains

Sideboard:
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke

(Looking back at it I'd have chosen a different board, probably with Canonist and/or Peacekeeper, but still)

JamesTheSmoker

11-17-2010, 09:24 PM

I'm playing zoo since 2007, and it's my pet deck.
I tryed all versions, italian zoo, naya boss, tribal zoo, in function of what the metagame required...in 2007 and 2008 I won a lot of tournaments with tribal zoo, then in 2009 and 2010 with Italian zoo I made a lot of top8, won a 126 players GP Trial and day2 in Madrid, undefeated in day1; after that I turned into naya boss for a few months in this year, but with vengevine I saw that it wasn't enough...Thinking about returning on tribal wasn't so bad, but in my metagame were a lot of stifle and wastelands, so the choice wasn't so lucky, I made several 5-2 but never top8ed, so I follow the way of Naya Boss and top8ed 2 times. Then in july I changed trying Big zoo, starting with 5-1-1 9th for rating in a 96 players tournament, followed by the results I wrote few post ago.
My friends also turned in big zoo, tested in 3 different version: the first like mine, then one with bloodbraid+thoctar and one with bloodbraid+ blood moon and boom/burst. The boom/burst version is the worst (4 tournaments 5-2 4-3 4-3 4-1-2), then the bloodbraid+thoctar (3 tournaments 1st beating me in semifinals, 1st and 4th but on only 55 players), then mine (6 tournaments 2 1st on 67 and 35 players, 2 top8 in 97 and 106 players, 1 top4 in 100 players and 1 5-1-1 9th in 96 players).
Those tests started with the survivals dominating the metagame, so I think it's the correct way of fighting in a tournament with zoo.

I think to beat survival we have to kill all the mana dorks without waiting for vengevines and destroy duals with wastes. The 1st is truly hard, but if you know what are you doing you can win playing well. The 2nd and the 3rd, with about 6/7 SB cards you can fight quite more relaxed.

That's not a deck for dummies, for sure, it's a deck that punish mistakes and wrong choices, but with a bit of time wasted in testing, you'll see how this deck could work, and you will loose very few matches...

Ah, and for sure, you have to limit the burn suite at only lightning bolts or like I tried 5 burn spells, cause this is not a deck that burns, infact you have more problems with enchantress than traditional one. I saw versions with 4 lightning bolts, 4 chain lightning and 4 path to exile, but they seemed weaker to me and I never tried them.

jandax

11-22-2010, 06:33 AM

antonbystedt

11-22-2010, 06:44 AM

That's the thing. Legacy is becoming much, much less broad. Look at the most recent SCG5k:

Top 16:
4 UG Madness
2 Ooze Survival
1 GW Survival
3 Nelson Rock
1 ANT
1 Dreadstill
1 Sneak n Show
1 Welder Reanimator
1 Countertop
1 Goblins

Splitting them out:

Bad MUs
7 Vengevine Decks
1 ANT
1 Sneak n Show

Split MUs:
1 Countertop
1 Welder Reanimator

Good MUs:
1 Goblins
3 Nelson Rock
1 Dreadstill

If you're ignoring Survival decks because you don't think they're part of the metagame... You need something to stop Vengevine. There is no question about that. If you don't, you're giving up almost 50% of your MUs before you sit down. Vengevine is literally 44% of the top 16. How are you dealing with that?

Goblins good MU? Im myself an experienced Goblin player, never lost to Zoo.
We just have to keep playing our Mogg War Marshall and chump so we don't take any damage from any creature, bolt lavamancers/nacatls, focus on killing elspeth and then win in the lategame with card advantage.

But idk, that's just my personal experience from tournaments.

Crazy Eddie

11-22-2010, 09:27 AM

Goblins good MU? Im myself an experienced Goblin player, never lost to Zoo.
We just have to keep playing our Mogg War Marshall and chump so we don't take any damage from any creature, bolt lavamancers/nacatls, focus on killing elspeth and then win in the lategame with card advantage.

In my experience, Goblins is a good matchup for the Zoo player, but it's definately not a no-brainer. You have to keep pressure with your bigger creatures (Goyf), keep one or serveral smaller creature at home as blockers to prevent yourself from suddenly being overwhelmed, and use your burn to tactically blast the Lords away. But over here in the Netherlands Goblin players don't play Lightning Bolt, and if they're playing Mogg War Marshalls they're in the sideboards.

practical joke

11-22-2010, 09:35 AM

In my experience, Goblins is a good matchup for the Zoo player, but it's definately not a no-brainer. You have to keep pressure with your bigger creatures (Goyf), keep one or serveral smaller creature at home as blockers to prevent yourself from suddenly being overwhelmed, and use your burn to tactically blast the Lords away. But over here in the Netherlands Goblin players don't play Lightning Bolt, and if they're playing Mogg War Marshalls they're in the sideboards.

Wrong,

There have been a few MWM around lately, they've taken spots in the mainboard lately.
Lightning bolt is a rare one for the dutch goblin lists, but maybe after gobbolord's succes, it might see more play.

I'm not sure if I want to play lightning bolt, but mwm's have been decent.

Nelis

11-22-2010, 09:53 AM

I am one of those dutch goblin players that has played MWM in the main from the start. I wouldnt want to do without them

In my experience MWM is indeed able to hold Zoo of but only if the goblin player draws into card advantage. If a Ringleader doesnt hit its usually game over for Goblins. But MWM has definitely improved the Zoo matchup for goblins. I never played Bolts so maybe they push the matchup in goblins favour?

JamesTheSmoker

11-22-2010, 12:03 PM

Regarding your last point, what do you play in lieu of a 1cc removal suite? I mean, is the deck geared towards an elvish swarm type game plan, or is it that given your metagame removal isn't as good as X, Y, and/or Z?

I'm just curious, your claims and results to match are sort of contrary to what others have put up and experienced so maybe you know something

Well, I think that as I red few time ago, zoo is like napoleon, it uses artillery cover to push through its infantry.
Starting with this, I think that better then artillery are removals in this meta, so cards like stp and pte. If you have to breakthrough for your creatures, you have to remove your opponent's, and cards like chain lightning are too weak. The burn suite, at this point, it's only good for boros, with lynx, goblin guides, lightning bolts, chain lightning, helix, pop, fireblasts and so on...In big zoo you have to win by attacking, not by burning. So, your suite is still at 1cc, but not burn, only removals and bolts.

Yesterday I organized a little tournament, so I didn't play, but my 3 friends with big zoo were quite undefeated in swiss rounds one 4-1-1 and the others both 4-0-2, then 2 top8 and 1 top4.

BantFTW

11-22-2010, 12:09 PM

against what of decks are ypu playing than :O?

JamesTheSmoker

11-22-2010, 02:33 PM

against what of decks are ypu playing than :O?

the meta is various:

- zoo
- goblin
- dreadstill
- madness
- survival vengevine
- survival bant
- enchantress
- merfolks
- jace landeed
- canadian ********

Last tournament I played against

GW aggro, Kor Life deck, Mystic faeris, 2 urban dreadstill, big zoo, eldrazi artifact, pikula - 6-1 top8

The one before I played against

2 pro-bant, elf combo, goblin, faeries - 5-0 undefeated

The other one I played agianst

Rock, dreadstill, UG madness, white stacks, lightning angel control (pw control), 2 survival vengevine, merfolk, big zoo - 5-0-2 top4

And at the beginning of this deck I played against

2 faeries urg, enchantress, merfolk, ats, jace landeed, ug madness - 5-1-1 9th

Catitas

11-29-2010, 08:18 AM

hi guys i'm start playing with 5cc zoo and it looks prety fun
comment

Mainboard:

Creatures :

4 Dark Confidant
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

Others :
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mox Diamond
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tribal Flames
2 vindicate

Lands :
2 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

60 Cards

jakolhops

11-29-2010, 09:43 AM

decklist

Couple of things for me that raise an alarm.
12 Creatures with no counter. Really all they have to do is save removal for your goyf and your gona have a hard time.
20 lands with 4 mox diamond might not be enough to support it.
Also this just looks to slow to function. Wasteland destroys you.

Nelis

11-29-2010, 10:25 AM

At first glance I'd make it somewhat like this:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Others :
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames

I think I would choose to forget about basics and just go for redundancy of colors

Lands (22):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island

So you can 'always' go:
T1 Taiga (Lavamancer, Nacatl)
T2 Tundra or Scrubland (Quasali Pridemage, Dark Confidant, Goyf)

Crazy Eddie

11-29-2010, 10:32 AM

I agree with Jakolhops. Also: there's a good chance that EE and Deed will destroy your own creatures as well. Deed + Mox Diamond also really don't combine. And given the fact that you're land count is really low and dies to Wasteland, I foresee a lot of mana- and colorscrews. Have you actually tested this already?

Fuzzy

11-29-2010, 11:49 AM

You can't put the word "Zoo" without Wild Nacatl.

Catitas

11-29-2010, 05:19 PM

sorry all, wrong list my bad

the list XD :

4 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Vindicate
4 Tribal Flames

1 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs

ZaHiro86

12-02-2010, 12:15 AM

how does zoo hold against survival? is dark confidant really reccomended? is a blue splash possible for counter support? and has anyone tested ranger of eos?

jakolhops

12-02-2010, 04:54 PM

Ranger is really really good in the mirrior and against other agro matches, but against faster archtypes i usually side it out.

jandax

12-03-2010, 06:52 AM

how does zoo hold against survival? is dark confidant really reccomended? is a blue splash possible for counter support? and has anyone tested ranger of eos?

You're getting into a whole new deck if you want to play B/U in Zoo. The merrits of which boil down to personal choice. Five color agro is vunlerable to all the Wastelands out there, and cold to Blood Moon effects. Test it a whole bunch before investing

And Zoo can handle survival. Extra StP in the sideboard for the Vengevines, or Necrotic Ooze, will go a long way. Just try to destroy whatever they lead with, or run it into a counter to grow your Goyf. It's not a helpless match up but with a good draw and lots of practice one can get there

CorpT

12-03-2010, 07:40 AM

And Zoo can handle survival. Extra StP in the sideboard for the Vengevines, or Necrotic Ooze, will go a long way. Just try to destroy whatever they lead with, or run it into a counter to grow your Goyf. It's not a helpless match up but with a good draw and lots of practice one can get there

So instead of going to 4 you go to 8 with 3 Vengevines on the board? Sounds great. If you kill a Necrotic Ooze with an StP, Bolt or Path, you're playing against a terrible Survival player.

Crazy Eddie

12-03-2010, 09:24 AM

If you kill a Necrotic Ooze with an StP, Bolt or Path, you're playing against a terrible Survival player.

Indeed, a good player will only play/reanimate his Ooze with Devourer and Triskelion in the graveyard. And if he does so, you'll be dead before gaining priority again. I would recommend some Graveyard Hate ( I prefer Tormod's Crypt) and a Krosan Grip as soon as you have the mana and a Survival to target.

jandax

12-03-2010, 06:15 PM

Forgive me, the Ooze is a different story because of their dominating the Stack.

Otherwise, SCG Opens are the only metagame where survival is running amock. There's no real tech for Zoo against Survival, just a game plan. If it is the case that one sees so much survival, zoo probably isn't the deck to be playing.

blue_mage

12-05-2010, 03:20 AM

Hi I have been pondering playing this deck. But is it realy not a good deck to play with survival around?

Moving forward please comment on this list. I'm planning on playing it on the comming tourney. Got it from deck chek. I may change some cards but I would keep the core. thanks a lot!

Mainboard:
Creatures :
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Others :
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands :
2 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

60 CardsSideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

15 Cards

jandax

12-05-2010, 05:58 AM

Do you anticipate a bit of Surivival? If so, it's probably not the best deck. It's slower than normal Zoo, and speed is what beats Survival.

blue_mage

12-14-2010, 10:28 AM

Do you anticipate a bit of Surivival? If so, it's probably not the best deck. It's slower than normal Zoo, and speed is what beats Survival.

This deck just went 5th place even with a survival infested meta. Saw the list from the recent worlds legacy public event. So i guess zoo can still do well even with survival around?:smile: any comments on the list will be appreciated?

Mainboard:
Creatures (21):
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Others (17):
3 Chain Lightning
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (22):
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

60 Cards
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Cards

geosgaen0

12-20-2010, 05:51 AM

zoo reborn? ^^

SkYliNeR

12-20-2010, 06:43 AM

Hello, I'm trying to play another version of Zoo, this quite interresting to play with. So I'm wondering if you have any ideas to devellope the concept :

Lands (23):

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy

Creatures (23):

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 PLated Geopede
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vinelasher Kudzu

Spells (13) :

4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15) :

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The whole plan of the deck is based on lands, make a big steppe lynx or a big plated geopede, or both, attack after a fetching and cast crop rotation to make a 8/9 steppe lynx and a 9/9 plated geopede, and if able, cast a lightning bolt ending the game. Knights also helps us to make our Landfall creatures bigger, Vinelasher Kudzu may be not the better choice for this version, let me know what you think.

A possible turn 3 win in zoo make our matchups better against Survival/Vengevine-like,Combo : doomsday/TES/ANT. The deck is faster and we keep the spirit of a zoo deck, he remains very good against merfolk, dredge, etc...

This sideboard is the one I uses for pretty every version of zoo, Red blast for everythings Blue, bojuka because we have 4 knights, relic because of the leyline, krosan : CB/Topther, Mindbreak : it's always hard against combo, and jitte for mirror matchups, goblin, merfolk, vengevine, etc...

Sorry if my english is not at best, I'm french, have a nice day :)

Pelobestia

12-20-2010, 05:18 PM

Here in italy (at least before the daily b/r that eradicats the problem at the source) zoo still harvest good results even if there are a lot of madness.deck (especially when talking about uw, gw version is a bit more complicated to beat). Here is my list:

2x Grim lavamancer
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Path to exile
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Sylvan Library
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothiils
2x Arid Mesa
3x Plateau
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas

Sideboard:

2x Pyroblast
2x Krosan grip
2x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Bojuka Bog

This list respond to the gameplan "remove the big meany, play the big meany" , six removal effects are what i was looking for when facing a 4/3 haste that returns from his deadland, and knights and tarmo are just the biggest beating machines that green can give us :) add to this wasteland and u can start to understand why uw madness wasn't such a problem...a 2nd turn wasteland + bolt on hierarch/bird was sometimes enough to slow my oppononent enough to race him to victory.
one major problem that i saw through testing is that configuration improves the mu against madness (now almost dead) and other decks like the rock (here still played) or control decks like jacestill but it is a little worse aginst consolidated mu like merfolks (especially the ub version with perish) and goblin. Also t.e.s. and enchantress get terribly worse as we cannot race them fast enough to kil before they start off to combo and/or lock us.

As a little example of MU last sunday i ended 10 over 50 in a tournament, amd my mu's was :

turn 1 mirror (2-0)
turn 2 Faeries Stompy (2-1)
turn 2 t.e.s. (1-2)
turn 3 Italian Zoo (2-0)
turn 5 RB Goblin (1-2)
turn 6 Enchantress (win by drop)

The most noticeable mu was against italian zoo (playing with steppe linx) where my opponenet couldn't even put a threat on table that got removed immediately after :9

JVzer0

12-23-2010, 03:20 PM

Seeing as the Survival decks are going to be much less of a factor, what direction do you guys think would it be best to take Zoo in to adjust for the new metagame? It's probably impossible to predict for sure, but I would guess that merfolk, countertop, and lands (as well as zoo itself) will see an increase in popularity.

Thoughts?

keys

12-23-2010, 03:49 PM

I almost think playing Vengevine as a 4 drop is viable.

CorpT

12-23-2010, 04:02 PM

I almost think playing Vengevine as a 4 drop is viable.

I was wondering if that wouldn't be viable with Fauna Shaman. Maybe Nobles, Fauna Shaman and Vengevines along with some of the normal stuff. Could be possible.

oneiros76

12-26-2010, 03:24 PM

Maybe Fauna Shaman would work if you turned the deck into some kind of haterade creature toolbox deck, but it's not really in Zoo's nature as a deck currently to want to have creature slots that you either want to sandbag or that you have to wait a while/devote other slots to make them useful, like vengevine. Fauna Zoo might be interesting though, like have like a singleton Burning Tree Shaman, Quirion Ranger, Aven Mindcensor, Gaddock Teeg, Eternal Witness, Magus of the Moon, a couple vengevines, etc etc, with the Wild Nacatl/ little dude basic package.

JVzer0

12-28-2010, 01:52 AM

It seems to me that if survival is gone the incentive for going 'big Zoo' in order to become more resilient to vengevines is diminished, and that perhaps returning to a more 'traditional' zoo list is in order. Here's what I'm thinking:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Creatures [24]

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library

Spells [14]

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Lands [22]

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast

Sideboard [15]

Granted, I haven't really played in a metagame where vengevine-survival was popular, so if I'm misunderstanding the reasoning behind big zoo please correct me.

hungryLIKEALION

12-28-2010, 03:03 AM

Fast Zoo was way better against vengevines than Big Zoo because you just killed them the turn before they went off.

And seriously, Steppe Lynx is a key component of why that's possible. Lynx is unreasonably awesome, and if you're not playing him you're not doing yourself any favors.

Catitas

12-30-2010, 10:14 AM

Big Zoo seems a lot better without veggies meta... If meta becomes again Zoo - Countertop - Merfolks, big zoo is a lot better than fast zoo...

TES and ANT will probably begone, Countertop in meta can do that...
Big Zoo beats Fast Zoo, and the merfolks matchup is still easy...
The only problem i see, is UBG JaceStill, wich is hard but a proper side can deal with it, although merfolks just rape this deck... so i believe Big Zoo is a right meta call right now...

troopatroop

12-31-2010, 01:33 PM

I also think Big Zoo will be stronger in the new environment. T.E.S turns into the most attractive deck, and hopefully people will gravitate back toward Counterbalance and Merfolk in response. I'll be boarding for Combo, and playing Noble Hierarch + Elspeth.

Catitas

12-31-2010, 05:18 PM

Demonic_Attorney

12-31-2010, 11:04 PM

TES and ANT will probably begone

Catitas: TES will not be gone and is only getting stronger; silly rabbit. Any combo decks (and there are a lot in the meta game right now) palpably gives the edge to traditionally Zoo builds because big zoo is just too slow and not as consistent.

JVzer0: Playing 4x Knight without any mana accelerant is not a prudent move. In a traditional, non-big zoo build without Noble Hierarch, two seems to be the right number of Knights. Moreover, running Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile in Zoo especially in traditional, non-big zoo undermines the decks speed and principle objective with burn being a key finishing component. I also question your choice of playing Loam Lion over Steppe Lynx considering your running 11 fetch lands and you’re also playing Sylvan Library to further buttress this choice. In this regard I agree with hungry that Steppe is a sound choice for a traditional Zoo build. I steadfastly maintain my previous position in relation to Steppe Lynx: See page 147, thread #2927 of this forum.

Catitas

01-01-2011, 10:34 AM

Catitas: TES will not be gone and is only getting stronger; silly rabbit. Any combo decks (and there are a lot in the meta game right now) palpably gives the edge to traditionally Zoo builds because big zoo is just too slow and not as consistent.

I used to play ANT before survival was banned, and already playtested against countertop, i ended up 2-12, tested half of them with side...TES is even worse than ANT, it has a terrible manabase so it loses even more to merfolks, against countertop the TES manabase is irrelevant, but the matchup still sucks... You said TES is getting stronger why? Time Spiral is a worse diminishing returns, besides that they dont have any new cards, so their power will remain the same, they're not getting stronger...
Even high tide decks none of them are a matchup for countertop...
So yup i believe there will be people playing with them but in a Countertop/Merfolks/Zoo meta they will lose popularity and will be played even less...
Big zoo is a better meta call, beats fast zoo, merfolks and has a fair matchup against Countertop...Still sucks against combo but post board that can be fixed...

Demonic_Attorney

01-01-2011, 05:43 PM

I used to play ANT before survival was banned, and already playtested against countertop, i ended up 2-12, tested half of them with side...TES is even worse than ANT, it has a terrible manabase so it loses even more to merfolks, against countertop the TES manabase is irrelevant, but the matchup still sucks.

Big zoo is a better meta call, beats fast zoo, merfolks and has a fair matchup against Countertop...Still sucks against combo but post board that can be fixed...

Countertop is not finishing top 8 or even top 16 in any recent events and even if it does pick up in popularity with the banning of survival, that is just speculation and hypothetical right now. Sounds like TES is probably not the deck for you based on that record you posted.

TES is not worse than ANT and since the banning of Mystical Tutor TES has been a far superior and more consistent deck. At GP Columbus when there was a ton of countertop in the meta, Bryant Cook playing TES dominated that match up consistently. Moreover, two ANT decks topped 8 at the last Star City Games Legacy Open in Richmond. At the Dutch Eternal Championships Eindhoven which saw 207 legacy players the top 2 decks were TES and ANT. At the last two GP’s Columbus saw a TES top 8 and Madrid saw two ANT top 4. This combo deck continues to get better and is growing with popularity and keeps on getting better with time. Now that survival is banned, I suspect even more players will start playing it.

I categorically disagree with you that big zoo is a better metagame call at present time. Traditional Zoo is substantially faster, more consistent and actually has a fighting chance at beating combo. Up until the banning which just took effect today, Big Zoo really could not be survival and fast Zoo could actually out race them and beat them with speed and consistency.

Traditional fast Zoo has an equal if not better match up against Merfolk, has a better match against the vast majority of control and has a much better matchup against combo and was palpably batter against survival. Traditional fast Zoo will also be better then Big Zoo against the new Vengevine u/g/b madness that is replacing survival.

JVzer0

01-01-2011, 06:34 PM

Ok so I've taken the various input and updated my list:

MAIN DECK

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Creatures [23]

2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
Spells [16]

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [21]

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

I actually moved to a new city recently, and today the local shop was running a legacy tournament, so I went to check out the location and the metagame.

Watching people play I noticed 2 Storm decks, 2-3 Countertop, 2-3 Infect, 1 (small?) Zoo, 1 Elves, 1 Junk, 1 Team America, and some other decks I don't remember. I talked to the shop owner and he said 4-5 of the more serious players weren't there today (probably sleeping off hangovers), so the normal metagame is probably a bit different from what I saw today. Based on what I did see however, I think I like the current configuration. The present set-up might be a little soft to the Countertop decks, but I think for most of the other decks I'd rather just try to outrace them.

What do you guys think of my updates? I realize that what I saw today probably isn't too indicative of what the new metagame will look like (infect...), but I do like my list given what I would expect to play against.

Catitas

01-01-2011, 06:50 PM

Countertop is not finishing top 8 or even top 16 in any recent events and even if it does pick up in popularity with the banning of survival, that is just speculation and hypothetical right now. Sounds like TES is probably not the deck for you based on that record you posted.

Well i think i wrote twice that after survival was banned... So of course you havent seen any top16 with countertop, survival was just better, and people stop playing with countertop, wich is what i'm pointing out, survival banned means Countertop will be tier 1 again...

ANT is superior to TES, in terms of manabase, TES is way to vulnerable to wasteland and requires a extra mana to combo since it supports 4 colors, so it has a worse matchup against merfolks, wich ANT doesnt have...

TES is not worse than ANT and since the banning of Mystical Tutor TES has been a far superior and more consistent deck. At GP Columbus when there was a ton of countertop in the meta, Bryant Cook playing TES dominated that match up consistently. Moreover, two ANT decks topped 8 at the last Star City Games Legacy Open in Richmond. At the Dutch Eternal Championships Eindhoven which saw 207 legacy players the top 2 decks were TES and ANT. At the last two GP’s Columbus saw a TES top 8 and Madrid saw two ANT top 4. This combo deck continues to get better and is growing with popularity and keeps on getting better with time. Now that survival is banned, I suspect even more players will start playing it.

Only one of those top8s is relevant to the discussion, the one from the GP Columbus, all others were with survival meta or Reanimate/Ad nauseam meta (legal MT)...
So bryan cook top8, if you read his report you'll find out that he only had 3 bad matchups, 2 of those were the first 2 rounds...He started with a bye so...i think you know what i mean...After round 3, he played against UW thopther wich is bad matchup and he lost...after that he had several good matchups and a couple even matchups... i would say that for only playing agaisnt 2 countertop decks was nice for a gp were you say there was a ton of countertop...

I Disagree with you, when tou point that TES popularity will grow and more people will play it...I believe that Countertop return to scene will clearly decrease the amount of storm decks, merfolks still beats TES and has good matchup vs countertop so it will increase popularity and again decrease the amount of storm decks...

I categorically disagree with you that big zoo is a better metagame call at present time. Traditional Zoo is substantially faster, more consistent and actually has a fighting chance at beating combo. Up until the banning which just took effect today, Big Zoo really could not be survival and fast Zoo could actually out race them and beat them with speed and consistency.

That's the reason why you never saw fast zoo top8 in survival time...Big Zoo top8 in several tournments in europe and fast zoo didnt during survival era...

Traditional fast Zoo has an equal if not better match up against Merfolk, has a better match against the vast majority of control and has a much better matchup against combo and was palpably batter against survival. Traditional fast Zoo will also be better then Big Zoo against the new Vengevine u/g/b madness that is replacing survival.

Fast Zoo has worse match ups vs control then Big Zoo, Landstill, 4C Countertop, just kill fast zoo, firespout + counters + explosives + jace + counterbalance + pernicious deed + edicts effects...are just too good for fast zoo, Big zoo normaly fights countertop due to have high CMC spells that are hard do counter trough balance and has bigger creatures that dont die to firespout, has for landstill planeswalkers are just insane against them, fast zoo can only rely on burn to win...
UGB madness is slower than Survival Madness so it will be a better match up to big zoo, since you'll have time to play high CMC spells, and have more sword effects than fast zoo...

I Believe the meta will become ZOO/MERFOLKS/COUNTERTOP, and i'm expecting it for the reasons i posted earlier i believe Big Zoo is a better call than Fast Zoo...And of course Big Zoo beats fast zoo...

Demonic_Attorney

01-01-2011, 07:40 PM

First off, your psychic prediction of the future metagame is pure subjective speculation and has no evidentiary foundation to support same. Moreover, in the future legacy format (whatever that will be) the metagame will definitely consist of more than the three decks you anticipate will be the most played. People stopped playing CB for more reasons than just survival. The fact that ANT is superior to TES in terms of mana base is inconsequential. TES is now a better, more consistent and an overall more popular deck. All of those recent top 8 finishes are entirely relevant because they deal with the present (non-survival) metagame not what may or may not happen in the future.

That's the reason why you never saw fast zoo top8 in survival time...Big Zoo top8 in several tournments in europe and fast zoo didnt during survival era...

What are you talking about? A traditional fast zoo deck just topped 8 (actually a top 4 finish) at a legacy trial event this month while survival was still legal. Big Zoo was manifestly too slow against survival and traditional fast zoo could actually outrace them and match their speed which big zoo consistently fails to do. Plus if an opponent kills Noble which is so easy for so many decks to do, and big zoo is even painfully slower. If you want to go back in time and look at when CB was popular then look no further then the last Grand Prix’s; Madrid and Columbus. The three (3) zoo decks that topped 8 at Madrid and the one (1) that went undefeated on day one were all fast traditional zoo. The two (2) zoo decks that did the best at Columbus played by Tom Ross and Alix Hatfield were both fast traditional zoo. This format is about speed and consistency regardless of how the metagame will shape out to be. Ask any of the top zoo players with proven success and they will tell you which version that would opt to play at a competitive large scale event.

UGB madness is slower than Survival Madness so it will be a better match up to big zoo, since you'll have time to play high CMC spells, and have more sword effects than fast zoo...

You could not be more wrong! In fact, in this case you’re dead wrong. The new U/G/B Madness is actually faster than Survival/Madness was; it is just not as consistent. However, the starts can be much faster and more explosive. I have done an extensive amount of play testing with U/B/G Madness thus far and by far, the faster more consistent version of zoo is much more difficult to play against then big zoo which is consistently at least one to two turns too slow.

Catitas

01-01-2011, 09:37 PM

People stopped playing CB for more reasons than just survival

Wich are?...

The fact that ANT is superior to TES in terms of mana base is inconsequential. TES is now a better, more consistent and an overall more popular deck

Well of course it is inconsequential... Having merfolks and tempo decks has bad matchups is clearly inconsequential... where TES is bad against merfolks ANT is good... You keep saying TES is now better bla bla...
Why is it better and more consistent now? the only card unbanned was Time Spiral wich is a worse Diminishing Returns, and with countertop back it seems a lot worse than in survival time...i already said that but you keep ignoring my arguments and tend to not justify your opinion with arguments and just say is better now bla bla...

A traditional fast zoo deck just topped 8 (actually a top 4 finish) at a legacy trial event this month while survival was still legal

Did you check SCGs and big tournments in europe and japan? that top was in worlds and there was also a big zoo... but i dont recall any other top8 with fast zoo after survival become dominating...

Check how many you'll find then compare the numbers...
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=546&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=498&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=711&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=191&format=LE

Those are few tournments but keep checking the tournments and you'll see...

If you want to go back in time and look at when CB was popular then look no further then the last Grand Prix’s; Madrid and Columbus. The three (3) zoo decks that topped 8 at Madrid and the one (1) that went undefeated on day one were all fast traditional zoo.

Again that metagame had MT wich made pretty much every side use mutiple cards for combo and less cards for zoo, because ANT was dominating... At Columbus there were no zoo in top 8 cause people pack more cards for zoo and less for combo in their sides...

Big Zoo was originally played in japan at legacy Championship 2010 (wich was in july 3rd... after GP Madrid and a month before GP Columbus) and then start spreading to europe...it wasnt a meta call its just a deck that wins vs zoo, merfolks, and has a decent matchup to Countertop, and right now i believe its a good call for post survival...

You could not be more wrong! In fact, in this case you’re dead wrong. The new U/G/B Madness is actually faster than Survival/Madness was; it is just not as consistent. However, the starts can be much faster and more explosive.

If i recall well that deck depends on mana creatures to play intuition on turn 2 or double entomb and then double creature for 2 veggies...so turn 3 you'll have 2 veggies...without mana dudes this will happen in turn 4 is it faster than UG madness...? you can say moeba discard double vegie then 2 rootwalla, well that use to happen in UG madness so i don t see the speed improvement you talk about...

Demonic_Attorney

01-01-2011, 11:18 PM

TES is better than ANT now because in addition to Mystic Tutor’s banning at recent SCG and GP events it has posted better win percentages; that is why. Also, on paper it’s only unfavourable match as per statistics was survival and now that deck is gone. These are not erroneous opinion just stone cold facts. If you want to Know why TES is a much more reliable and consistent deck than ANT since Mystical’s banning read what Cook had to say on the subject in that forum. He comprehensively set out why TES is a better deck and how it can beat counterbalance. I am not going to debate this further for a variety of reasons with the principle of those reasons being this is a Zoo forum and it is not fair to the other players that come here to discuss Zoo. BTW, ANT is not good against merfolk either it is still a bad match up for them, nevertheless.

but i dont recall any other top8 with fast zoo after survival become dominating...

Check how many you'll find then compare the numbers...
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=546&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=498&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=711&format=LE
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/...=191&format=LE

Those are few tournaments but keep checking the tournaments and you'll see...

Why don’t you look at the last and most recent top 4 Zoo deck list posted on Magic-Ville which was also when survival was still legal and had culminated in its success. You will note it is fast traditional zoo!
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck_top8?ref=208221

it wasn’t a meta call its just a deck that wins vs zoo, merfolks, and has a decent matchup to Countertop, and right now i believe its a good call for post survival...

Traditional fast Zoo has an equally good if not better match up against merfolk, also has a decent match up against the decreasingly popular Countertop decks and has a way better match up against combo. Granted big zoo is better in the mirror but there are sideboard remedy’s for that. I have also asked Matt Elias and Tom Ross (and I will try and ask Alix Hatfield) arguably the best and the most celebrated and decorated legacy zoo players and they both unanimously agree that now, in the present day metagame that traditional fast zoo is better than big zoo. I agree that overall and pound for pound that a fast traditional zoo build will be superior to that of big zoo.

If i recall well that deck depends on mana creatures to play intuition on turn 2 or double entomb and then double creature for 2 veggies...so turn 3 you'll have 2 veggies...without mana dudes this will happen in turn 4 is it faster than UG madness...? you can say moeba discard double vegie then 2 rootwalla, well that use to happen in UG madness so i don t see the speed improvement you talk about...

The attractiveness of Vengevines was and still is its explosiveness, perhaps even more so now. Paying one mana for a Putrid Imp to get a Basking Rootwalla and a number of Vengevines into play on turn 1 is nothing but pure explosiveness. I concede the new build lacks consistency that the survival build had, however; it is definitely not slower which is why big zoo is and will be too slow and traditional fast zoo has a better chance at beating it more often.

The moves you can pull are pretty sick: Turn 1 Land with Careful Study, discard Ghast and Vengvine(s): Turn 2 play Imp, discard Vengevine(s), land, bring back ghast, BOP, bring back Vengevine(s). You can play 5 creatures and attack with 2 plants and draw two cards all by turn 2; or Turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard 2 Vengevines, discard Basking Rootwalla, and swing for 8. Then Turn 2, pump Basking Rootwalla to a 3/3 and swing for 12 for a turn 2 goldfish.

The explosiveness is insane. Survival was slow, costing 1G+ GGGGGG in total. In the new U/B/G Madness explosive turn 1 and turn 2 openers seem to happen more often. I'm getting more explosive turn 1 and turn 2 opening hands with single and double Vengevines with the addition of black. You also can open with a single Vengevine on turn 1-2, and cast an Intuition to lay down more Vengevines/Wonder by turns 3-4. This is ostensibly faster although not as consistent as survival was. In any event, just like the TES issue, this is not the appropriate forum to discuss U/B/G Madness.

mishima_kazuya

01-01-2011, 11:19 PM

Zoo for the new metagame.
/ Lands
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [A] Plateau
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [MR] Plains (4)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [A] Savannah
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Forest (1)
1 [CHK] Mountain (3)

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
1 [WWK] Loam Lion
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

I am getting very close to playing mainboard Blood Moon...

hungryLIKEALION

01-02-2011, 12:28 AM

Demonic Attorney, thank you for posting the majority of the things I'm far too lazy to type.

Mark Sun

01-02-2011, 12:34 AM

Zoo for the new metagame.

<list>

I am getting very close to playing mainboard Blood Moon...

What is the reason for the lack of Sylvan Library?

Catitas

01-02-2011, 09:52 AM

hungryLIKEALION

01-02-2011, 01:10 PM

Good thing those results aren't from a free online league full of godawful scrubs or anything.

Wait...

mishima_kazuya

01-02-2011, 01:26 PM

mmmetaphor

01-02-2011, 03:53 PM

jandax

01-02-2011, 04:16 PM

Just got back from a 500eur Legacy tournament with 46 (?) players. Made top 4 to a split, and actually played sudden death in my semifinal match :D Very interesting.

the top 8 was very diverse. 1 dredge, me with zoo, goblins, CT, GUB and GUR thresh, Eva Rock, TES

Demonic_Attorney

01-02-2011, 04:30 PM

Well looks like my meta prediction sounds correct... as well as the deck choices... First big tournment without survival, look at the meta...

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5450

111 players no storm in top8, 2 countertop decks, 1 big zoo, 1 merfolk, 1 UW Standstill...

Free online leagues this early don't establish anything. In fact, I am more incline to lend more weight to a 50 player in person competitive 24K+ rel event then that.

The first true big tourney will be a SCG open, a Grand Prix or a Gen Con.

I also note that the first Grand Prix will not be until the end of May in Providence Road Island and then in December in the Netherlands which I will be attending. We will have to wait to see what happens at the first SCG Legacy open event of 2011. However, even then, I am very hesitant about SCG Kansas City which is taking place on January 9, 2011 as it still might be too early to establish a new post survival metagame and a lot of players will be exploring the new waters and adjusting from the results of that event. I think the metagame will not be established until late Feb to mid March, 2011 with a trial and error process.

troopatroop

01-03-2011, 09:29 PM

I also note that the first Grand Prix will not be until the end of May in Providence Road Island and then in December in the Netherlands which I will be attending. We will have to wait to see what happens at the first SCG Legacy open event of 2011. However, even then, I am very hesitant about SCG Kansas City which is taking place on January 9, 2011 as it still might be too early to establish a new post survival metagame and a lot of players will be exploring the new waters and adjusting from the results of that event. I think the metagame will not be established until late Feb to mid March, 2011 with a trial and error process.

Isn't it obvious what decks are still good? It's the same format -1 card, and Vengevine is fairly recent. Countertop, Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo, Ooze Combo/Storm/Belcher becomes the basic metagame. Big Zoo is what I want to be playing against most of that picture. I honestly hope that Storm runs into the blue, and I ninja dodge combo somehow, but you can adjust your SB accordingly. Needle is pretty bad now.

my SB is
4 Crypt
2 Silence
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip

Noble Hierarch is the card you want to be playing today, and it largely outclasses Loam Lion and Kird Ape. People say that Big Zoo is slower, but to what degree slower? It's not slower at dropping Knight of the Reliquary or Elspeth, because +1 mana is alot better than a 2/3 swinging, and Exalted matters. If you think fast Zoo is stronger in your metagame, then you should go that way. However, if you're expecting to play against Counterbalance and the mirror, I wouldn't suggest it over Big Zoo. I've beaten combo a fair bit with it too, Wasteland helps.

Demonic_Attorney

01-04-2011, 12:42 AM

I honestly hope that Storm runs into the blue, and I ninja dodge combo somehow, but you can adjust your SB accordingly. Needle is pretty bad now.

TES isn't the only tangible and playable combo deck in the format and relying on other decks to beat a key match up in a large scale event is a palpable mistake.

Noble Hierarch is the card you want to be playing today, and it largely outclasses Loam Lion and Kird Ape.

I disagree that Noble Hierarch is a card you want to be playing today, especially in a fast zoo build as it does not do the required and necessary early damage that zoo needs and obviously does not fit into the traditional fast zoo build that I am playing in any event. It may or may not be better then ape and lion and even if it is, in my view, it is not better then lynx (with 11-12 fetch land).

People say that Big Zoo is slower, but to what degree slower?

To a substantial degree slower. In legacy, one turn too slow can be fatal and killing an opponent on turn four as oppose to turn five can be all the difference. That is where doing 4-5 damage on turn two is key which fast zoo excels at and slow zoo simply cannot.

big zoo can be very slow at dropping Elspeth when Noble is not their to accelerate and that will be the case more often then not as almost every deck in the format has ways to kill Noble early. What you gain in terms of speed with Noble (if it lives long enough) you lose in aggression, tempo and invaluable early beats. That is what zoo is suppose to do; apply early THREATS that do EARLY game damage; not merely give you extra mana.

my SB is
4 Crypt
2 Silence
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip

I've beaten combo a fair bit with it too, Wasteland helps.

Wasteland is a weak answer to beating combo. Raw speed, consistency, MBT, Pillar, Teeg and Canonist are the answers to beating combo with zoo and I see that you play none of those tenacious and reliable answers.

Catitas

01-04-2011, 05:52 AM

Isn't it obvious what decks are still good? It's the same format -1 card, and Vengevine is fairly recent. Countertop, Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo, Ooze Combo/Storm/Belcher becomes the basic metagame. Big Zoo is what I want to be playing against most of that picture.

Well pretty much no one but us know that here...

my SB is
4 Crypt
2 Silence
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip

I run a very diferent side but, i remember playing with mages side, and i only had a couple diferences -1 crypt -2 silence + 3 blue blasts...

my side right now...

2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor (Team Zasca played with them to a top finish and loved it since)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog (Knight of the Reliquary working has a tutor, and i always like to diverse hate cards)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon (Try out agaisnt Standstill decks, hilarious, i remember games when i played choke they sometimes manage to return to game, but after blood moon is game...no chance of coming back, they normaly run only a swamp in UGB version, the white version is a little bit though, they pack more basics, but again is just a matter of perfect timming to cast it...)
1 Rule of Law (i used to run gaddock teeg and 3 traps but counterbalance is way to strong to believe combo will stand, so i tested and ended up liking it a lot, since you find it wherever you want with the tutors)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle (Jace...Vial...Top...Deed...Explosives, it's still awesome)
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Noble Hierarch is the card you want to be playing today, and it largely outclasses Loam Lion and Kird Ape. People say that Big Zoo is slower, but to what degree slower? It's not slower at dropping Knight of the Reliquary or Elspeth, because +1 mana is alot better than a 2/3 swinging, and Exalted matters.

Yup, almost ever... Generaly that mana sometimes looks like a time walk, and if you 're on draw it's really awesome...

troopatroop

01-04-2011, 01:11 PM

Big Zoo still plays the same creature base. Nacatl is the fastest opener possible, and both decks can do it. I have not found Big Zoo to be "slower" at all, and speed is NOT everything anymore. Counterbalance punishes you for playing Loam Lion and more burn spells, and Combo decks roll over fast Zoo all the same. Games in Legacy can go long, and the best way to control your topdecks (past playing Sylvan Library) is to not play cards that aren't good late-game. Zoo is also fairly mana hungry. Loam Lion won't save you from mana screw, and that 2/3 body just isn't as damaging as it used to be. The combination of +1 mana and Stacked exalted triggers has been better in my testing, but to each his own.

I don't plan on dodging the combo decks, because Ooze/Storm/Belcher are great decks that win. I have terrible luck, and that's why I play the SB I do. Pillar/Teeg/Canonist have all been in my board, but I HATE the 2cc. MBT and Silence are where it's at, but I prefer Silence. Meddling Mage, while not fantastic against Storm combo, is a huge boon from the sideboard. It has numerous applications in the current format, stopping cards we would otherwise have no say about. I expect to see alot of decks like that in the coming months.

@ Catitas: I <3 your Enlightened Tutor SB, I'm gonna give it a try. It seems really strong, and not playing Tropical Island will feel nice :D

hungryLIKEALION

01-04-2011, 05:41 PM

Nacatl is the fastest opener possible

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/zen/36.jpg

o hai

jandax

01-04-2011, 07:27 PM

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/fullmonty/35/spr50.jpg

But Nacatl...consistency...

lulz

hungryLIKEALION

01-04-2011, 07:32 PM

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/fullmonty/35/spr50.jpg

Pwnd

TheSleeper

01-04-2011, 08:01 PM

Does anyone have a tested fast-Zoo/Steppe Lynx list they can share?

ScatmanX

01-04-2011, 08:48 PM

Does anyone have a tested fast-Zoo/Steppe Lynx list they can share?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16594-hungryLIKEALION-s-tournament-report-collection

He says is Goyf-SlighEither way, I like that way more than normal Zoo.

Sunsatzu

01-04-2011, 10:20 PM

so are we just cutting gaddock teeg from sideboard, is he no longer necessary?

hungryLIKEALION

01-04-2011, 11:18 PM

Well since that's my Goyf Sligh list, I feel I should throw out an updated version, which is basically to say there should be 4 chains...

4 Goblin Guide
4 Nacatl
4 Lynx
3 Lavamancer
4 Goyf
4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Rift Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
1 Reckless Charge
2 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
2 Mountains

That should serve you pretty well, but if you're looking for something more traditionally Zoo, I'm currently playing...

Good Zoo

4 Nacatl
4 Lynx
3 Lavamancer
4 Pridemage
4 Goyf
2 Knight
4 Bolt
4 Chain
3 Fireblast
4 Path
2 Library
4 Mesa
4 Heath
3 Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy

Actually, that doesn't really take into account Price of Progress which should be good again in the new meta. I haven't decided where I want to fit it back in yet, so you may have to fiddle around with it a bit.

Demonic_Attorney

01-05-2011, 12:15 AM

]

But Nacatl...consistency...

lulz

However, playing both Nacatl and Lynx gives both consistency and speed. Big Zoo won’t always get a Nacatl in their initial draw; however, when playing a full play set of both Nacatl and Lynx and the odds are very good at getting one of them in your opening seven. Playing 11-12 fetches with Sylvan Library in my view, offers stable consistency. It is noteworthy to mention that the last two Zoo builds to win SCG legacy opens both used Lynx and at the last legacy GP (Columbus), the best Zoo deck (Alix Hatfield 12th place finish) also played a full set of Lynx.

Big Zoo still plays the same creature base. Nacatl is the fastest opener possible, and both decks can do it.

Not true, see above.

Zoo is also fairly mana hungry. Loam Lion won't save you from mana screw, and that 2/3 body just isn't as damaging as it used to be.

Of course it is going to be mana hungry when you are playing a whole bunch of 3cc and 4cc cards. Who said anything about playing Loam Lion or even Kird Ape for that matter? I sure don’t! Nacatl, Lynx and Lava are my one drop animals.

I don't plan on dodging the combo decks, because Ooze/Storm/Belcher are great decks that win. I have terrible luck, and that's why I play the SB I do. Pillar/Teeg/Canonist have all been in my board, but I HATE the 2cc. MBT and Silence are where it's at, but I prefer Silence. Meddling Mage, while not fantastic against Storm combo, is a huge boon from the sideboard.

Troop: You don’t play Teeg or Canonist because of the 2cc yet you undermine this logic by playing a full play set of the 2cc and even more mana colour intensive Meddling Mage. Even with Noble you’re not resolving Mage until turn two at the absolute earliest; same time as Teeg or Canonist would/ could resolve. When on the draw this just is not good enough. I agree with you on MBT against combo in addition to the aforementioned options.

jandax

01-05-2011, 05:46 AM

]

However, playing both Nacatl and Lynx gives both consistency and speed. Big Zoo won’t always get a Nacatl in their initial draw; however, when playing a full play set of both Nacatl and Lynx and the odds are very good at getting one of them in your opening seven. Playing 11-12 fetches with Sylvan Library in my view, offers stable consistency. It is noteworthy to mention that the last two Zoo builds to win SCG legacy opens both used Lynx and at the last legacy GP (Columbus), the best Zoo deck (Alix Hatfield 12th place finish) also played a full set of Lynx.

I wasn't disagreeing, I've been running Lynx ever since people in this thread started giving it serious consideration around March of last year. I ran them for the first time in the Sunday Legacy event at GP Brussels and never looked back. Both Block sets to come out over the past two years have done nothing for Zoo's game but sped it up. SHards of Alara brought Wild Nacatl, making Zoo playable, and then Zendikar brought Steppe Lynx a year later. SoM didn't hold much, but there's little room for another good to awesome one drop. It was just funny how you called troop out, so I ran with it

troopatroop

01-06-2011, 01:15 PM

Yeah, we've all played Steppe Lynx and know about what comes with him. I just remember Lynx making me mulligan more. All of sudden I needed W on turn one, preferably without fetching, and to hit my land drops on turns I wanted him to bash. It sounds easy, but it can lose you games. I played Naya Sligh for a long while myself, and learned all about how fast that deck could go. In time I found that I was despising my own Steppe Lynxes about 1/6th of the time they were part of my plan, because ripping fetchlands is actually fairly difficult. Swinging for 2 is just okay, and you can't count on Sylvan Library always being in play. I just hated the luck factor. Noble Hierarch is a safer, more consistant plan, which can be built around. Also, 4 KOTR and 2 Elspeth is not a bunch of cards at 3/4cc.

Troop: You don't play Teeg or Canonist because of the 2cc yet you undermine this logic by playing a full play set of the 2cc and even more mana colour intensive Meddling Mage. Even with Noble you’re not resolving Mage until turn two at the absolute earliest; same time as Teeg or Canonist would/ could resolve. When on the draw this just is not good enough. I agree with you on MBT against combo in addition to the aforementioned options.

I'm glad you brought this up. Teeg and Canonist have one basic application, which is to stop Storm decks. That is a narrow purpose. I suppose Teeg is a bit more versatile, but not nearly as much as Meddling Mage. Mage comes in against many decks, has applications against every combo deck, and can stop more cards. MM can name anything. Show and Tell, Natural Order, Buried Alive, Swords to Plowshares, Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Top, Pernicious Deed, Innocent Blood, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought/Stifle, Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, Firespout, Perish, Jitte, whatever card would hit you the hardest. 2cc ONLY matters against the decks killing you turn 1/2. He faces the same 2cc problem against storm as Teeg and Canonist, while being pretty fantastic against other decks. You have to consider the rogue factor, people expect to be able to play their cards against Zoo, and MM can be unexpected. It's also quite easy to board them in, because they're only bad against Aggro, and Chain Lightning/ Lavamancer make excellent subs.

jandax

01-07-2011, 08:27 PM

Last weekend I went to a Top 4 split of a 500 euro tournament rocking Wild Nacatl.

Here's the 75 I registered:

4 Nacatl
3 Lynx
4 Lavamancer
4 Pridemage
4 Goyf
4 KotR
4 Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 CHian lightning
2 Library
4 Path
2 Fireblast
10 Fetch
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy

SB:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Teeg
3 O-ring
3 MTB
2 Grip

For a meaty tournament report, here's a good read (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=121815)

justjake54

01-08-2011, 12:18 AM

I've been trying to tweak my Zoo deck, how did you feel about the 20 land count especially with 3 lynx? I am currently running 23, and if I could comfortably cut 2 lands for spells that seems good!

jandax

01-08-2011, 06:41 AM

Wouldn't change a thing. I mulliganed a lot which was unusual, but normally my deck likes me and making the land drops isn't a problem. More often than not I'll end the game with five lands on the board, and I've also hard cast Fireblast on several occasions. It suites me, but others might find it a problem

jazzykat

01-08-2011, 06:52 AM

@jandax: I looked at your list and if it works for you I'm impressed, but I am scared of that manabase with 4 KotR and only 20 lands. Congratulations on your finish!

jandax

01-08-2011, 05:00 PM

I was scared too, but like I said my deck must like me, cuz over the past year 20 land has been ideal. KotR is just a beating. I used to have the standard two I copied from the 'net when I built the deck, then found room for a third, and now after a year of playing it and testing it, and luckily placing more than once with it, I can confidently say this list is 100% tuned. For me, that is. Sometimes, just getting over one's fear will open doors otherwise shut. Try it out man, you might just like it.

justjake54

01-08-2011, 07:23 PM

Hanni

01-08-2011, 07:37 PM

One thing you might want to try that I recently changed in my build is 3 sylvan library. that card is just too damn good not to have 3 of, if you resolve that against control its usually game over!

You should usually beat Control, more often than not. Something about a bunch of early beats with burn to the dome in the midgame gives those decks fits.

naarou

01-08-2011, 09:10 PM

jandax.. from your report:

Zoo, thanks to its consistency is a better top-decker than Goblins.

Not sure I agree with this. From what I know, late game is where the goblin player wants to be because of cards like Ringleader, SGC, matron etc. I suppose if you meant "better" as "more consistent" then I'd be slightly more inclined to agree, but even then I think goblin's ability to just end the game off the top is a lot more important than zoo's ability to draw beaters and burn.

jandax

01-09-2011, 08:29 AM

One thing you might want to try that I recently changed in my build is 3 sylvan library. that card is just too damn good not to have 3 of, if you resolve that against control its usually game over! I used to play it as a 2 of but wouldn't play with less than three for any reason now. I also have been a big fan of the 5 sword effects in the main and 1 in the board. my meta game is pretty aggressive though, but I have loved playing with at least 6 sword effects in some combination of board and main.

Im pretty sure I'm going to switch from Path to Swords. The lifegain can be easily mitigated but sometimes that extra basic for them is a game breaker. My meta plays a few basics (aka not combo dominant) so Path is in a way hurting me more than helping me. And I've seen people running three libraries, maybe I'll give that a shot too.

jandax.. from your report:

Not sure I agree with this. From what I know, late game is where the goblin player wants to be because of cards like Ringleader, SGC, matron etc. I suppose if you meant "better" as "more consistent" then I'd be slightly more inclined to agree, but even then I think goblin's ability to just end the game off the top is a lot more important than zoo's ability to draw beaters and burn.

To me, better is synonymous with more consistent. Sure, all those ceatures you mentioned bring about more card advantage for Goblins. But, that card advantage can only be capitalized at a later point, provided one of the haste lords is already hanging around. And also, there are a few cards that are absolute duds in Goblins, where in Zoo even lands are live draws thanks to Steppe Lynx, Horizon Canopy, and to an extent Grim Lavamancer and KotR. Personally, when I enter thsi match up, it's about getting bigger guys on the table. Trading one of mine for a few of theirs when they're low on life is a good deal. Beaters and burn are the keys to the match up, they're the reach Zoo needs to win.

JVzer0

01-19-2011, 10:42 PM

Anyone planning on adjusting their list now that two SCG opens have somewhat established the metagame?

jandax

01-20-2011, 06:00 PM

It's not established, it's a bit more predictable. Aether Vial is hotsauce right now, I'm hoping Matt Elias will pick up Zoo again and win one like he did this time last year.

honestabe

01-21-2011, 09:10 AM

My teammates and I have been laying quite a bit on MODO with an aggressive Zoo list we whipped up.
Due to the format being still a bit in limbo, we decided to just be the aggressor and came up with this:

TIME POLICE ZOO
Aka, CABS (Cats And Boo-boo Spells)

4 Speedy Gonzales (http://magiccards.info/query?q=goblin+guide&v=card&s=cname)
3 Kitten (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/36.html)
4 Little Cat (http://magiccards.info/query?q=wild+nacatl&v=card&s=cname)
3 Big Cat (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/75.html)
4 Big Poppa (http://magiccards.info/query?q=tarmo&v=card&s=cname)
3 Highway to Hell (http://magiccards.info/query?q=hellspark&v=card&s=cname)
3 The Reaper (http://magiccards.info/query?q=grim+lavamancer&v=card&s=cname)

4 Boom (http://magiccards.info/query?q=lightning+bolt&v=card&s=cname)
4 Zap (http://magiccards.info/query?q=chain+lightning&v=card&s=cname)
3 Kiss 'em bye bye (http://magiccards.info/query?q=path+to&v=card&s=cname)
2 Captain Cantrip (http://magiccards.info/query?q=magma+jet&v=card&s=cname)
2 The old 3-for-1, aka the red time walk (http://magiccards.info/query?q=fireblast&v=card&s=cname)
1 Trusty Rusty (http://magiccards.info/query?q=jitte&v=card&s=cname)

2 Everest (http://magiccards.info/pd2/en/31.html)
1 Elves dot land (http://magiccards.info/query?q=forest&v=card&s=cname)
4 Kilimanjaro (http://magiccards.info/query?q=wooded+foothills&v=card&s=cname)
1 Tornado Valley (http://magiccards.info/query?q=windswept&v=card&s=cname)
4 Sahara (http://magiccards.info/query?q=arid+mesa&v=card&s=cname)
1 If you want blood, you've got it (http://magiccards.info/query?q=bloodstained&v=card&s=cname)
2 Kird Ape's den, Aka Dave Feinstien's house (http://magiccards.info/query?q=taiga&v=card&s=cname)
3 Little Cat's Dojo (http://magiccards.info/query?q=plateau&v=card&s=cname)
1 Lion Country (http://magiccards.info/rv/en/297.html)
1 Library of Savandria (http://magiccards.info/query?q=horizon+canopy&v=card&s=cname)

Sideboard:
2 Ouphes, I win (http://magiccards.info/query?q=kitchen&v=card&s=cname)
2 Grandpa (http://magiccards.info/query?q=teeg&v=card&s=cname)
1 Librarian (http://magiccards.info/query?q=ethersworn+can&v=card&s=cname)
3 Wrath of Satan (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/106.html)
3 Old Sparky (http://magiccards.info/query?q=pyrostatic&v=card&s=cname)
2 REB (http://magiccards.info/query?q=red+elemental+blast&v=card&s=cname)
2 Grip it and Rip it (http://magiccards.info/query?q=krosan+grip&v=card&s=cname)

The deck is fast. Blazingly fast, but still has the resiliancy of zoo. The MVP is Goblin Guide. Blue mages never counter him, and he in return, kills them. He is criminally underrated, and I have won just as many games on the back of him as I have on the back of tarmogoyf. Hellspark is there as a way to force through the last little bits of damage to get our opponent in burn range. I'm not particularly found of him, but he does his job, and steals a lot of games just by coming out of nowhere, and dodging firespout and other wrath effects. Magma jet is there, mainly because the Magic online meta is run by a bunch of x-1 and x-2 creatures. It also scrys for 2, which is pretty much drawing a card with this deck. Fireblast is there to end games. We refer to it as the red time walk, because it just finishes things up a turn earlier.

In the SB, old sparky is there for the elves and affinity decks that are all over the place on modo. they also come in vs ad naus and spring tide. Wrath of satan is particulary good against decks that try to gain life, or play moat effects. It allows you to just sit the game out and then just wait until they get into burn range, and it's my second favorite sb card, second only to : Ouphes, I win. We've had a few close calls playing against burn, and decided we'd finally give up some sb slots for it. you pretty much win when he resolves. He's also there for the Zoo mirror. Our testing that our MU against zoo comes down to 2 things: Either a Race, or an attrition war. Finks allows you to win both, and is the sideboard MVP.

What do you guys think?

CorpT

01-21-2011, 01:49 PM

What do you guys think?

That I might look at the list if the card names were correct instead of unknown, useless knicknames.

Professor Awesome

01-21-2011, 09:40 PM

How do you guys feel about Green Sun's Zenith (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114212&d=1295289915)?

Goyf #5+? QP and Teeg Tutor?
or Daze food in a 20 land deck?

jandax

01-22-2011, 09:26 AM

I'd honestly rather run 61 cards than cut something for the Zenith. I think I'd rather have something silver-bulletish and off the wall like a lone O-ring, Naya Charm, or Ranger of Eos.

It's probably better for Elves, as a 5th Glimpse or Pact if they play combo. Worldy Tutor would be better at 1G for Zoo, but it's slow and inconsistent, the opposite of what Zoo wants to be.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

01-23-2011, 03:47 PM

Just picked up this deck. Here's my list. Any advice?

22 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

23 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape

15 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 sideboard
3 Choke
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Professor Awesome

01-23-2011, 06:59 PM

I would advise against swords, since it's counter productive to your strategy. The opponent gaining any sort of life at all is detrimental. Swords is a control removal, not an aggro removal. Four path in exchange +2 chain. Lightning Helix is a fine alternative in an aggro heavy meta. 4 Knight is a bit much, but I can attribute that to personal preference (I run 3 and the typical amount is 2). Wasteland and treetop village should be taken out, you can't expect to have a knight out to tutor for them, and if you do, you always want to be attacking, not wasting time land cycling. Furthermore, Waste and Path don't play nice together, and cip tapped lands are to be avoided at all costs. 20-21 land is ideal.

I would increase your Grim Lavamancer count to at least 3 (4 is common, I'd almost say universal), as it is wonderful against merfolk, a very common deck. You have 9 non-grim dudes for 1, which is great. Never drop below 8 imo.

Opinion Warning*
I don't like Steppe Lynx in 'classic' zoo (that is, zoo that runs knight and doesn't run Price/Fireblast). It's worthless when you are on the draw vs lackey and similar, has little defense, and can sputter out after an initial swing for 4. It CAN get big with Knight tap effects, but why not swing with the knight too? It's often a bad lategame draw, and promotes running too many fetches. I ran it for a year and it was a total mixed bag, either being great or useless, and in Classic Zoo I feel its greatest strength should be consistency. I will say that Steppe Lynx is a complete house in more Sligh styles of Zoo, adding to those deck's speed and surprising reach (lynx for 4 on t2, cat, ape, lynx for 9 on t3 with price+fireblast for the win is alarmingly strong, albeit goldfishie and random).
Opinion end*

Your sideboard is odd, but I can't comment too much without knowing your meta. Hope this helped.