[Deck] Zoo

[SarBashar]

Couple of things:

Sylvan Library in some number (2 is generally accepted, but more isn't bad...just a personal choice).

Horizon Canopy has great synergy with the aforementioned Sylva Library, and with the high fetchland count both of them let you see fresh cards every turn.

Steppe Lynx can be insane if you get it early, especially with 9 fetchlands. It can be a terrible topdeck late game, which is why some lists only use 3 of them. If you run out of land (which is pretty rare considering Sylvan Library...) you can run the little 0/1 dork into a bigger blocker and use it to feed Grim Lavamancer. Easily a better option than Watchwolf. There are a TON of better options than Watchwolf. If you're looking for 2 slots to fill in, look to something outside of CounterTop range. The best option is obviously the other 2 Knights, but you could also use Elspeth, Knight-Errant, or just get Fireblast #2 in there along with another Grim Lavamancer.

Good luck!

The Sylvan Library was my mistake, i run two, but my eyes glossed over them looking through the deck. I agree, in matches where it lands so far, it has been incredible.

I would very much like to run Horizon Canopy, but I am unsure of the mana base:
9 Fetch (3 each) + 6 dual (2 each) +3 basic (1 each) is 18 lands.
I really want to run at least one Karakas, perhaps two.
Does zoo want 21 lands? 22?
I suppose I could run 2x Horizon Canopy and 1x Karakas.
Cut a watchwolf for an extra Knight to tutor for Karakas as necessary; it's a touch slower, but I guess running two Karakas is still just a crap shoot against Sneaky Show (which shows up a fair bit in the meta).

And then perhaps cut the last two kird apes (which I am generally not happy with) and the other watchwolf for 3 steppe lynx?

Again though, I have no idea on the 9 fetch + 6 dual + 3 basic part of the mana base, but it feels a touch off.

[KrzyMoose]

You need more 1-drops, and Watchwolf is terrible.

11 1-drops is the absolute minimum I'd ever play in non-Big Zoo. Unless I'm playing the mirror/Aggro matchup, I will mulligan a hand without a 1-drop 95% of the time.

Windswept Heath is the most important fetchland, so you want 4 of them. If you end up running Steppe Lynx (which I fully support), you want 11 fetchlands.

I feel 21 lands is the best number for standard Zoo. Without 4-drops, 20 lands is probably okay.

[Mr. Safety]

Horizon Canopy is good enough to warrent a 1x inclusion IMHO. If you use 21 lands, that sounds good to me. You have 9 fetch + 6 duel + 3 basic + 3 utility (Horizon, Karakas) = 21

Most zoo lists use 4x Knight...it is slower to get moving, but it's the nuts for being able to tutor up these lands: Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Mountain/Mountain flavored duel for Fireblast.

Nacatl x4, Grim Lavamancer x3-4, Steppe Lynx x3 = 10-11 one-drop creatures, which should be enough. Goyf and Pridemage are your 2-drops, and Knight should top off your curve x3-4. The reason Knight is so good is that it generally gets past Counterbalance and gets huge from your fetchlands. There is some minor dissynergy with Grim Lavamancer, but you can PICK the cards you exile with Grim and avoid lands until you absolutely need to. Remember that Knight feeds itself too, which is important when facing a bigger threat (bigger Goyf or Knight/Terravore) and you need to beef him up.

This is just my opinion on Watchwolf vs. Kird Ape: Kird Ape is marginally smaller, but also costs a full mana less to play. Both are in CounterTop range, so the mana cost is largely irrelivant for that particular matchup. If you need more beef than the 10-11 1-drops you already have, Kird Ape is better than Watchwolf. I would challenge that Loam Lion is even better than Kird Ape if your metagame has a tendancy for Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast.

Good luck!

[Capt4in]

Here's the build I'm packing...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mindbreak Trap

Any suggestions? I worry that 11 1-drops aren't enough, but I find mainboard Teeg to be relatively useful. Should I consider cutting Teeg for Apes or Lions, or moving him to the SB? I like having 1 Jitte in the main because I have run into many situations in which Jitte winds up being literally my only out and it is able to prove its worth (mowing down a horde of EtW tokens, wiping an Affinity deck's board, etc)

As far as SB, I added Kataki and Shusher because I have recently encountered a lot of CB and Affiinity, the top 4 slots there are flexible.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Keep running Watchwolf. It makes you feel like you're wearing a bandolier and wielding badass guns when you attack. Plus, losing to outdated cards is always fun.

[Mr. Safety]

Here's the build I'm packing...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mindbreak Trap

Any suggestions? I worry that 11 1-drops aren't enough, but I find mainboard Teeg to be relatively useful. Should I consider cutting Teeg for Apes or Lions, or moving him to the SB? I like having 1 Jitte in the main because I have run into many situations in which Jitte winds up being literally my only out and it is able to prove its worth (mowing down a horde of EtW tokens, wiping an Affinity deck's board, etc)

As far as SB, I added Kataki and Shusher because I have recently encountered a lot of CB and Affiinity, the top 4 slots there are flexible.

If you're worried about EtW tokens, I think your best bet is Pyroclasm in the sideboard. Ancient Grudge has always served me well in the affinity matchup.

Why are you playing maindeck Teeg? His effect is good, but easily dealt with by the majority of the format. I feel 2x Fireblast would go much further for you.

I'm also a huge proponent of a full set of Lightning Helix, too. Tendrils of Agony w/ a 10 storm count? Response, Helix at you, be-yotch.

[jandax]

Keep running Watchwolf. It makes you feel like you're wearing a bandolier and wielding badass guns when you attack. Plus, losing to outdated cards is always fun.

hah, that's funny whether you're being sarcastic or not

[keys]

I'm also a huge proponent of a full set of Lightning Helix, too. Tendrils of Agony w/ a 10 storm count? Response, Helix at you, be-yotch.

Not to burst your bubble but you would be dead if you cracked any fetches that game. Even if you didn't, your opponent would be at 39 life and need only topdeck burning wish to kill you with grapeshot.

[Genericcactus]

I got 12th in Vestal this weekend with this:

// Lands
1 [MR] Mountain (1)
1 [MM] Plains (3)
1 [CST] Forest (2)
3 [R] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
4 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
1 [BD] Kird Ape

// Spells
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [DD2] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [8E] Choke
SB: 3 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast

I beat UGB Thresh, Junk, Sligh, Goblins, and GerryT Countertop, and lost to Merfolk (!) and a weird UGBR Countertop deck. There isn't much I'd change about the deck, perhaps find room for a 3rd Knight in the board. I don't understand playing less than 23 lands when we have access to Horizon Canopy.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

hah, that's funny whether you're being sarcastic or not

I used to run a foil playset myself back in the day when I picked the deck up. I love the card because of it's nostalgia. And seeing you opponents face when you win with Watchwolf is enjoyable.

[Dzra]

Bloodbraid Elf really isn't talked about a lot. I used to not run him because I ran Steppe Lynx and a Lynx off a Bloodbraid is pretty horrible. However, recently I tried him out again as a 2-of and I'm rarely sorry to draw him.

Right now I'm running this:

Lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures 20
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 19
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard 15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lightning Helix
1 Bojuka Bog

[Capt4in]

Bloodbraid's way too slow for a build with only 21 land...you'll have a hard time hitting 4 mana without a hierarch or more lands.
Even then, Bloodbraid's really only going to be helpful vs Counterbalance and other aggro decks...against a lot of the format, it's going to just slow you down.

[jandax]

that's pretty generalised, why wouldn't it work given certain circumstances?

[honestabe]

I've been having a hard time beating W/x tempo decks.

Are there any sweet sb cards for that MU?

[Valtrix]

What do you consider a "W/x" tempo deck? Without anything more than that it's difficult to talk about sideboard cards.


that's pretty generalised, why wouldn't it work given certain circumstances?

I think that if you're going to play a 4cc card you might as well play Elspeth instead of bloodbraid elf. While Elspeth doesn't net you a card, she does get you 3 damage a turn (the most that bloodbraid elf can get), but more importantly, she diversifies your threat base. Bloodbraid elf doesn't really do this in my opinion, and does little to help you win when your other creatures would not have gotten you there in the first place. Sure, there are situations in general where elf can be really good. However, I would rather play things that net insane card advantage (like library), are ridiculous threats in their own right (knight, terravore even), or diversify the threat base (Elspeth, maybe Koth).

On a related note Dzra, I notice that you're only playing 2 lavamancers. I think they're too useful to only run 2 of, as they can provide two damage a turn while letting all of your creatures trade up if needbe. Furthermore, tribal is pretty popular right now (well, aggro in general), and lavamancer is one of your best tool against these decks.

[Dzra]

I used to use more, but I felt like too many was counterproductive to Goyfs and Knights. Once the graveyards start filling up later in the game, they can definitely be great. An early Lavamancer was always fighting with Goyfs and Knights though. Anyways, Tribal MUs are usually not a problem. 8 Bolts, Helix, and Paths usually clean them up pretty well. Goblins can sometimes be problematic if they hit really well off Ringleader. I'll give Elspeth a shot I suppose, I've liked BBE so far but Elspeth has always been great in whatever deck I've put her in.

[KrzyMoose]

you'll have a hard time hitting 4 mana without a hierarch or more lands.

Against Combo? Sure.

Against the rest of the format? Not really.

I don't think BBE is where you want to be, though; it doesn't really have any value in any matchup. There are at least two four-drops I'd run instead, which actually do things you need in a variety of matchups.

[Dzra]

There are at least two four-drops I'd run instead, which actually do things you need in a variety of matchups.

Elspeth and..?

[KrzyMoose]

Ranger of Eos.

[blue_mage]

Hi! I have a couple of questions. I'm currently trying out a zoo list but not that sold in playing it because of questions such as given below that occasionally pops into my mind.

1.) Which variant of zoo ( BIG or Traditional) is better in a meta full of goblins, zoo, merfolks, mono black, and combo decks (TEPS, bellcher)?

2.) Why is zoo not that strong or is not finishing in the top tables after the banning of survival? At least I have not seen it do good in SCG and in big tourneys.

3.) How can zoo handle phyrexian crusader?

thanks in advance for your helpful responses.

[stumPen]

1.) The Traditional one because its faster.
2.) Because CB beats Zoo`s ass.
3.) Block it with Goyf or Nacatl.

[CorpT]

1.) The Traditional one because its faster.
2.) Because CB beats Zoo`s ass.
3.) Block it with Goyf or Nacatl.

I've never had that much of an issue with CounterBalance. It's not a great MU, but far from terrible. I spent awhile testing and almost always ended up 50/50. CB isn't the issue. It's combo that always keeps Zoo in check. There are other outlier decks that aren't terribly good either, but CB isn't the deck keeping Zoo down.

[justjake54]

Not to burst your bubble but you would be dead if you cracked any fetches that game. Even if you didn't, your opponent would be at 39 life and need only topdeck burning wish to kill you with grapeshot.

Need only top deck burning wish and enough mana to cast it and grape shot. and you can probably kill them in like 5 or 6 turns with out any distruption on their part.

[Crazy Eddie]

I've never had that much of an issue with CounterBalance. It's not a great MU, but far from terrible. I spent awhile testing and almost always ended up 50/50. CB isn't the issue. It's combo that always keeps Zoo in check. There are other outlier decks that aren't terribly good either, but CB isn't the deck keeping Zoo down.

I agree with that, Storm Combo is the main reason Zoo isn't as succesfull lately as it used to be. Counterbalance Decks are hard, but by landing an early threat (T1 tacatl) before they have time to drop Counterbalance, and by keeping up the pressure, you have a good chance to win.
On the other hand, the combo match-up is bad because your clock is usually to slow, and you have to hope you find some of your sideboard material, so they have time to build a good hand to go off or find an answer for your sideboard hate.
And the idea of casting Lightning Helix in reaction to a Tendrils with 9 storm copies is ridiculous. Sure, it's great is it actually happens, but that would mean the storm player hasn't cast Duress or Orim's Chant to prevent situations exactly like this one. Also, it would mean that you kept 2 mana open with which you could also have cast a Tarmogoyf or a Wild Nacatl. Therefore, if your opponent just Brainstorms or drops a Sensei's Divining Top (which he can easily do because you haven't cast a creature so you're not close towards attacking for lethal) you basically wasted a complete turn. And finally, storm players usually have a storm count of well over ten.

[Justin]

Zoo's chances of beating both CounterTop and ANT improve if you run Fireblast. The 6cc gets around Counterbalance, while you might surprise an ANT player when you are tapped out after an Ad Nauseam with four extra damage for lethal.

[honestabe]

By w/x tempo, I meant Deadguy Ale, death and taxes and Green and taxes

[jandax]

Are you worried about how the match ups look on paper or are you really getting crushed repeatedly by people wiht those decks?

The thing is, both w/x tempo decks and zoo have a lot of removal, so you're going to have to out play them. Bringing in cards for the match up isn't as important as knowing what their deck is going to do and how to take advantage of it. If you can consistently deploy threats and force them to handle each one, eventually you'll get into topdeck mode where Zoo is a stud. Certain cards like Library and KotR should be deployed later on when all their removal has been expended on Goyfs, Nacatls and Grim Lavamancers. Those are the cards that'll turn the game in your favor.

[Valtrix]

I haven't been playing zoo a whole ton, but is the presence of firespouts enough to give zoo problems in the counterbalance matchups? I remember when I played zoo counterbalance decks were rarely a problem for me.

[jandax]

CB diehards run Firespouts in the main due to their common creature match ups. Sticking an early beater like a Nacatl or goyf, or even pridemage, paves the way. Over extending into a firespout is pretty deadly, as one generally wants to land as many threats before CB/Top is on the table. Here, Grim Lavamancer shines as a shock-on-a-stick, and a first turn Nacatl goes a long way as well. Sometimes, they're just going to have good hands and go turn 1 Top turn 2 CB, then Daze/counter whatever you play afterwards.

Maindecked firespouts represent a counter-strategy to those employed against them. A hoard of creatures is bad news for CB, so having a cheap and effective sweeper, and something in the 3cc slot for CB to boot, is indeed a good thing.

It's not the end of the world, it's something to keep in mind.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Firespout is really what tips the balance in the CB match up. Indeed, it gives the CB player a reliable and cheap answer to countering Grip with CB, and will sweep the board early keeping them safe from a mid-game burnout. With no way to draw cards efficiently and effectively, Zoo loses so much card advantage from losing three plus creatures/ threats to a single card. If you play conservative and don't pump out creatures, then Zoo is not playing its intended and required "A" game and aggressive style of play. Zoo plays optimal when it is very aggressive and assertive, especially early. Playing passive and holding creatures back in fear of firespout also plays right into their game. So it is like you are damned if you do and your damned if you don't. In my view, the CB match is quite favorable with no main deck firespout, and three main deck firespout with four post board makes the CB match an uphill battle.

[CorpT]

If you want to reliably beat CB, Elspeth is your card. Fireblast suffers from 3-for-one-yourself syndrome. While great at getting around a CB, any other counter spell ruins your day. Elspeth, OTOH, is amazing. Four gets around CB almost as well as 6, provides a continuous source of creatures and evasion pumps to get around their Wall of Goyf. Vendillion Clique is typically their only way to deal with Elspeth and Clique is fairly easy to deal with.

[Valtrix]

I think there's a lot of options to beating firespout. First, I think you should be playing 4 knight of the reliquary in the main. This gives you more big creatures for them to deal with, and 3cc is easier to sneak around balance. You could also consider Elspeth, but I'm not convinced she's necessary. There are also board options that I think I very reasonable to consider to help beat CB-firespout decks:

1) Choke: I think that this can really catch the counterbalancence player off guard, and many are bringing out force of will for straight creature removal. Even if they firespout this gives them so little mana to work off it's pretty strong anything. I think this is the best strategy against them.

2) Burrenton Forge-Tender: This card is a little more narrow, but it's also pretty useful in a lot of respects. First and foremost it says "counter target firespout." Or, if they have to use removal like swords on it, then they're not using In the mirror you can counter bolts/chains (though I'm not sure if you want to run this in the mirror...). It's great against goblins, and gets rid of bridge from below against dredge.

3) Duergar Hedge-mage: Now, why would this be particularly good against CB/firespout decks? Well, it gives you an answer to shackles or counterbalance or any other random things they have, while also giving you a creature to beat them down with. He can be countered, but he can also be useful to overwhelm the counterbalance player with creatures.

[Mark Sun]

It really depends on the metagame, in my opinion.

While 4 Knight (plus maybe Elspeth) is great against the 4c CounterTop lists, those cards are suboptimal in the tribal matchups, as they're either too cost-heavy (thinking of Merfolk, where I'd rather have smaller guys and more removal) or come online a little too late (thinking of Goblins, same logic as it hogs your resources).

I will probably play just one Knight in the main again, and board a little heavier for the Counterbalance decks. Out of the cards above I think Choke is the best option as a game breaking sideboard card against the control decks, and will likely be playing at least two copies, maybe three, in my sideboard. The Hedge-Mage seems fine, although in those situations I'd rather just have Krosan Grip, as the latter simply deals with more (I'm thinking Humility), and there's simply no reason to commit too many board slots to Artifact/Enchantment hate.

Btw, if anyone here is going to Indy, come by and say hi.

[JJ_JKidd]

I've never had that much of an issue with CounterBalance. It's not a great MU, but far from terrible. I spent awhile testing and almost always ended up 50/50. CB isn't the issue. It's combo that always keeps Zoo in check. There are other outlier decks that aren't terribly good either, but CB isn't the deck keeping Zoo down.

Its a difficult MU esp for the "traditional" one with multiple one-drops. E.g. you start off with Nacatl, follow it up with 2 more one-drops like Figure, or Ape, Loam Lion, Mancer etc. Next thing he Firespouts or EE which cleans up your board. The most difficult in my personal experience is the UGR-CTop-Dreadstill. They have Goyf which slows down the game. Plus mana denial package in Stifle + Wasteland.

Post board, things become a lot easier. You board in REBs or Pyro. Krosan Grip (s), Pithing for Wasteland, Senseis, among others.

[jandax]

I think there's a lot of options to beating firespout. First, I think you should be playing 4 knight of the reliquary in the main. This gives you more big creatures for them to deal with, and 3cc is easier to sneak around balance. You could also consider Elspeth, but I'm not convinced she's necessary. There are also board options that I think I very reasonable to consider to help beat CB-firespout decks:

1) Choke: I think that this can really catch the counterbalancence player off guard, and many are bringing out force of will for straight creature removal. Even if they firespout this gives them so little mana to work off it's pretty strong anything. I think this is the best strategy against them.

2) Burrenton Forge-Tender: This card is a little more narrow, but it's also pretty useful in a lot of respects. First and foremost it says "counter target firespout." Or, if they have to use removal like swords on it, then they're not using In the mirror you can counter bolts/chains (though I'm not sure if you want to run this in the mirror...). It's great against goblins, and gets rid of bridge from below against dredge.

3) Duergar Hedge-mage: Now, why would this be particularly good against CB/firespout decks? Well, it gives you an answer to shackles or counterbalance or any other random things they have, while also giving you a creature to beat them down with. He can be countered, but he can also be useful to overwhelm the counterbalance player with creatures.

I am on board wiht you regarding the first two paragraphs. I now run four KotR and haven't looked back. Mana is rarely an issue with my Zoo deck, specifically mine, it seems to like me. +1

Choke is often an undervalued and underused card. More often than not opponents have lamented at its presence, and it is indeed a great way to thwart CB's strategy. If you are running Price of PRogress, Choke isn't as good cuz they might either play around it in the first place and not get blown out with four duals on the board when basics could have worked. If not running PoP, choke is a solid hoser card for blue decks. It's usually good form to not drop it on turn 3 when you could play around a daze or hold mana for a REB

[Mr. Safety]

Not to burst your bubble but you would be dead if you cracked any fetches that game. Even if you didn't, your opponent would be at 39 life and need only topdeck burning wish to kill you with grapeshot.

Using 'logic' on me eh? Pfffh...whatever. I hear you though, it isn't likely that Helix will do you much good. SITES is a fairly resilient combo deck with the whole Burning Wish package. Not unbeatable, but tough as you can't outrace them in most matches.

The only evidence I have is one game against a SITES player who got to a 10 storm count (barely) and had an empty hand on turn 2. If I had cast Lightning Helix in response to Tendrils (I was at 18 life) I would have lived at 1 life and been able to at least get into the game. As it were, I floundered to a 0-2 record. Game 2 I had a Mindbreak Trap in hand...which he Duress-ed mid-combo. My only option was to Trap the Duress, but I knew it was game over.

[lordofthepit]

The only evidence I have is one game against a SITES player who got to a 10 storm count (barely) and had an empty hand on turn 2. If I had cast Lightning Helix in response to Tendrils (I was at 18 life) I would have lived at 1 life and been able to at least get into the game. As it were, I floundered to a 0-2 record. Game 2 I had a Mindbreak Trap in hand...which he Duress-ed mid-combo. My only option was to Trap the Duress, but I knew it was game over.

Technically, you want to cast Helix in response to the storm trigger (or after any copy resolves prior to lethal).

[CorpT]

Its a difficult MU esp for the "traditional" one with multiple one-drops. E.g. you start off with Nacatl, follow it up with 2 more one-drops like Figure, or Ape, Loam Lion, Mancer etc. Next thing he Firespouts or EE which cleans up your board. The most difficult in my personal experience is the UGR-CTop-Dreadstill. They have Goyf which slows down the game. Plus mana denial package in Stifle + Wasteland.

Post board, things become a lot easier. You board in REBs or Pyro. Krosan Grip (s), Pithing for Wasteland, Senseis, among others.

I haven't run a Zoo deck with Loam Lions, Kird Apes or Figure of Destiny in ages. They are vastly outclassed by other options.

My typical Zoo creature base is:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Not overextending is a good thing. Running Lavamancers out early to get Firespouted sounds like a pretty bad idea. If you haven't tried Elspeth, try her out. She was amazing against control. She makes dudes. She jumps cats. Pumps Goyf if she dies. Just an amazing card for that MU.

[Capt4in]

So I decided to cut my Gaddock Teegs and made a few other changes to my main and sideboard. Here's what I'm running now.


1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard:
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Mindbreak Trap


I decided I wanted to up the 1-drop count, and I picked up the Karakas as an answer to Show and Tell decks and (occasionally) dredge (where you can hit their Iona). With Teeg out, I cut Lightning Helix for Fireblast which I haven't tested yet. Kataki, War's Wage could probably stand to be something else, but I like having the stone nuts vs Affinity, which shows up frequently at the minor Legacy events in my area. If I were to cut it, it would probably be for Vexing Shusher or Choke vs Control or Umezawa's Jitte vs. aggro.

Any advice/tips?

[Nelis]

I would run 4 Steppe Lynx, if you want to make use of them in Zoo then you want to increase your chance of having one in your opening hand. I'm also a big fan of Grim Lavamancer and I don't understand why some people only run 3. I would go -2 Kird Ape +1 Steppe Lynx & + 1 Grim Lavamancer.

[CorpT]

I would run 4 Steppe Lynx, if you want to make use of them in Zoo then you want to increase your chance of having one in your opening hand. I'm also a big fan of Grim Lavamancer and I don't understand why some people only run 3. I would go -2 Kird Ape +1 Steppe Lynx & + 1 Grim Lavamancer.

I definitely agree that 4 Steppe Lynx is correct. I like 3 Lavamancers though. Lavamancer is the card I want to see one of, not two of. Two Lavamancers means one of them is a 1/1 for 1. Kird Apes are worthless though. I still really like Espeth.

[Mark Sun]

I definitely agree that 4 Steppe Lynx is correct. I like 3 Lavamancers though. Lavamancer is the card I want to see one of, not two of. Two Lavamancers means one of them is a 1/1 for 1. Kird Apes are worthless though. I still really like Espeth.

However, Lavamancer is incredibly useful against tribal -- with so many Aether Vials in the recent SCG Top 8's, is four copies of it not a correct call for the metagame? That's what I'm running, anyways.

[Valtrix]

In my experience it's not needed. You generally are faster, have bigger creatures, and have more spot removal for anything of theirs that is a threat. This is in addition to having lavamancer which almost completely shuts tribal down by himself, so to me 3 seems like the right call. Sure, it helps the tribal matchup, but that's not really a matchup that we need help with in my opinion so I'd rather play cards that are better against other matchups. Also, as it's been said, drawing 2 is usually really awful, and I like to try to reduce the amount of times that zoo can give me hands that I don't like. Personally I'd probably even run umezawa's jitte before the 4th lavamancer, since that diversifies your answers against decks.

[beastman]

4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
3 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah

4 nacatl
3 steppe lynx
4 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage
4 goyf
3 knight of the reliquary

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 path
2 fireblast
2 sylvan library

SB:
3 krosan grip
3 choke
3 price of progress
2 volcanic fallout
1 karakas
2 swords to plowshares
1 bojuka bog




My main deck has been pretty spectacular for me recently, though I'm trying to find room for the 4th lynx.

The SB changes every tournament, but lately I've found that price of progress is ridiculous in most matchups, and volcanic fallout is huge for the goblins match up, which has been gaining a lot of popularity since winning the last 2 scg opens.

I've been recently looking into the big zoo lists that have been popping up in europe a lot lately and I would love to hear from some one who has done a good amount of testing with it whether it is any good.

[CorpT]

However, Lavamancer is incredibly useful against tribal -- with so many Aether Vials in the recent SCG Top 8's, is four copies of it not a correct call for the metagame? That's what I'm running, anyways.

Sure. But Lavamancer has only so much gas. That's why two is overkill. It's not like Merfolk is ever going to kill him, and if Goblins does, you've still got a lot of removal and better creatures than they do.

IMO, you rarely want to drop him early. You shouldn't be running him out there to catch an early Incinerator because he won't be useful early when you have little GY and you can play bigger, better creatures. He also has negative synergy with KotR and/or Goyf.

The fact that he doesn't die in Merfolk, can run out of gas and has negative synergy with KotR and Goyf lead me to the conclusion that I only want to see one a game. That leads me to 3 instead of 4. I don't think that 4 is the worst idea in the world, and an increase in Goblins is certainly a good reason to play 4. Personally, I've never liked 4 just because I've been stuck with 2 too often, but that may need to be re-evaluated with the dominance of Goblins.

[AlexAI]

...
I've been recently looking into the big zoo lists that have been popping up in europe a lot lately and I would love to hear from some one who has done a good amount of testing with it whether it is any good.

I don't know how much this will help, being a random guy on the internet, but here goes!

I played a variant for about a month or so a few months back, but I don't know if it's relevant now since that was when Survival was legal. It was okay, went 2-2, 4-1-1, 1-3 in weekly tournaments and 3-2 in a bigger monthly.

The list varied, but here was the list I used the last time I played it:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Pithing Needle
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland

//Sideboard
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Null Rod
1 Powder Keg
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
2 Pyroblast

I went back to normal Zoo because Needles were too good in my meta, so I couldn't run as many bombs as intended for the big version.

The only big thing I took from it was that Wasteland just wasn't worth it. The deck didn't have enough game breaking plays with it to warrant cutting mana sources or playing it as a spell and cutting business.

If I wanted to pick it up after Survival, I'd probably replace those Needle slots with more bombs(Ajani Vengeant, Library), cut the wastes for a basic/dual and maybe find room for the Fire/Grove combo. That or just cut the Hierarchs for Lynxes and bump up to 22-23 land to make it just Zoo with a few more bombs mid-late game. I don't see how 2 4-drops and 4 3s aren't castable with that amount.

Hope this helped at least a little.

[beastman]

I haven't even really tried needle in the side. I'd like to know if the maindeck heirarchs are worth the lost power to be able to play cards like ajani and elspeth better.

[AlexAI]

I haven't even really tried needle in the side. I'd like to know if the maindeck heirarchs are worth the lost power to be able to play cards like ajani and elspeth better.

I cut needle out of the 75 after Survival got banned, had em maindecked since there was a critical mass of things to needle that this deck didn't like seeing(Equips, Survival, Vial, etc).

I'd run Hierarch if you plan on going huge(4 walkers, fire/grove combo) since you'll almost always need the mana boost then. Only time i really hated Hierarch was when I saw doubles in my opener or I keep a hand like Hierarch, Knight, Elspeth, 2-3 land, see my hierarch stp/bolted and all of a sudden look clunky. T2 Knight isn't great too many times either, since hes a 3/3 usually.

If you just run two Elspeth with 3-4 knights, I think you would be fine just going to 22-23 land and keeping the lynxes in. Might try something like that next time I go to a tournament.

[beastman]

I think if your playing a bunch of 4 drops and 4 knights, I would definetely keep in the heirarchs. What I meant was, is having said 4 drops powerful enough to warrant the required lack of explosiveness?

[AlexAI]

I think if your playing a bunch of 4 drops and 4 knights, I would definetely keep in the heirarchs. What I meant was, is having said 4 drops powerful enough to warrant the required lack of explosiveness?

Yeah, you get a little slower for better topdecks mid-late game. Your nut draws are about as fast, you just see them less. If your first attacks dont get through, you'll be sitting with knights and walkers instead of burn intended to finish games off.

Sorry if I'm not being clear, I've never done a great job explaining things lol.

[beastman]

So from the list you posted would it be -2 needle +2 ajani +1 baneslayer?

[AlexAI]

I'd probably go:
-3 Pithing Needle
-2 Wasteland

+2 Ajani Vengeant
+1 Plains
+1 Fetch/Treetop Village/Mountain or something
+1 Late Game Bomb X (Library, Jitte, Baneslayer) or the 4th Chain Lightning

[beastman]

With 4 knight i think wastelands can be awesome, agian this is all in my head as I havent actually tested this list yet and I'm REALLY drunk right now. Also, I think banslayer would be great.

Lastly, I like boobs.

[AlexAI]

Not being a colored source or business that swings the board is what turned me off of wastes since you're usually cutting one of the two for them. Baneslayer looks awesome but I'd hate to pay 5 mana to see it stped or pathed.

[Whippoorwill]

I've been recently looking into the big zoo lists that have been popping up in europe a lot lately and I would love to hear from some one who has done a good amount of testing with it whether it is any good.

A couple of us have been posting about it in Developmental (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19052-[Deck]-Naya-Midrange-*-Big-Zoo-Naya-Horizons-*/page4) and have been having good results with it.

[Tom T]

Two of my friends played Big Zoo so I have some insight on its pros and cons when compared to 'normal' Zoo;

Pros:
- More suitable for the (slightly) Aggro-Control-minded.
- It's late-game is very very good.
- one of the best Aggro decks against Aggro, defeats 'normal' Zoo, (lategame) goblins, (ofcourse) Merfolk, Countertop (because of the manacurve and costs of threats), BGW rock and more.
- Better against Firespout and other burn
- Every creaturespell you play is a threat (whereas normal zoo usually has to swarm for the win)
- Various ways for cardadvantage
- It's threats are harder to answer (like Elspeth & big dudes)
- Exciting games :p

Cons:
- The combo match-up is slightly weakened
- Manadenial is weaker (which isn't a deal if you would play Noble Hierarch)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tom

[Whippoorwill]

Pretty much spot on from what I've seen. Some nitpicking I would do:

-Goblins in general seems to be an easy match for me, but I'm also running Sword of Fire/Ice & Basilisk Collar main which other builds aren't. Early game I have Bolt & Path for creatures and Pridemage for Vials.

-I wouldn't say its really better against Firespout. Most of the stuff will still die to that. I've been considering Sivvi's Ruse or Absolute Law in the SB if it becomes too much of a problem. But I'm also running Bloodbraid which helps me recover fast.

-I'd say the Combo match is more than slightly weakened. It's pretty much horrible. I'm still working on the SB options for those matches. Currently I have 3 Leyline of Sanctity and 3 Null Rod.

-Not sure what you mean for the mana denial. If you mean disrupting your opponent's mana, then that's pretty much nonexistent in most Big Zoo builds since you generally want the land drop to use for your "big" spells like Elspeth.

[Admiral_Arzar]

From my understanding, by playing "Big" Zoo, you improve your matchups against aggro and aggro-control, worsen your matchup against straight control, and completely throw away any chance versus fast combo.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Cons:
- The combo match-up is slightly weakened

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tom

Slightly weaker? It is substantially weaker!

[troopatroop]

Slightly weaker? It is substantially weaker!

This is false. How substantial? Zoo is about 35% against combo decks, even with Steppe Lynx. Big Zoo is what, 30%? It depends on how many Wastelands you play. Your only hope, with both decks, is that they stumble/fizzle. It seems to be just about the same stakes. More Burn spells doesn't help your case, and neither does Grim Lavamancer.


From my understanding, by playing "Big" Zoo, you improve your matchups against aggro and aggro-control, worsen your matchup against straight control, and completely throw away any chance versus fast combo.

It's more complicated than this. I don't think straight control is worse, I think it's better. Are we talking Counterbalance and Landstill here? If so, Big Zoo is superior. You play more bombs, and more of your guys can attack through Mishra's Factory due to more Exalted triggers. You're playing less Burn spells, so that's less dead cards. I would rather be playing Big Zoo against both decks. Also, I've beated combo plenty with Big Zoo. You need to play good answers in your sideboard, and draw Wild Nacatl + Wasteland game 1.

[Demonic_Attorney]

This is false. How substantial? Zoo is about 35% against combo decks, even with Steppe Lynx. Big Zoo is what, 30%? It depends on how many Wastelands you play. Your only hope, with both decks, is that they stumble/fizzle. It seems to be just about the same stakes. More Burn spells doesn't help your case, and neither does Grim Lavamancer.

To the contrary, it is manifestly true!

How substantial? Palpably substantial and I suspect you either don't play competitive (with big zoo against combo), or your metagame has little to no combo and your subjective view of big zoo has impaired your logic on proven and solidified facts, namely that fast traditional zoo (utilizing lynx and blast) is much more consistent and is optimally better than big zoo is against combo (especially the more recent versions of big zoo that are running little to no burn).

Steppe Lynx in and of itself increases the chances of fast zoo beating combo over big zoo 10-25% depending on if you are on the play or draw and if you drop it on turn one. This fact is further compounded by the use of fireblast and burn to have in hand to play in response to the IGG trigger.

You are factually incorrect on your erroneous 35% estimated range. A traditional fast zoo deck with 4x steppe lynx, with 11-12 fetches, fireblast, library and at least twelve burn spells with MBT, Teeg and Canonist boarded in is well over 50% post board; pre board it is at least 40% and quite ostensibly, big zoo is no better than 25% and that is being generous. I suggest you actually play and by play I mean play a lot with both variations of zoo against the top three combo decks in the format and the results will be conspicuous.

[jandax]

To the contrary, it is manifestly true!

How substantial? Palpably substantial and I suspect you either don't play competitive (with big zoo against combo), or your metagame has little to no combo and your subjective view of big zoo has impaired your logic on proven and solidified facts, namely that fast traditional zoo (utilizing lynx and blast) is much more consistent and optimally better then big zoo is against combo (especially the more recent versions of big zoo that are running little to no burn).

Steppe Lynx in and of itself increases the chances of fast zoo beating combo over big zoo 10-25% depending on if you are on the play or draw and if you drop it on turn one. This fact is further compounded by the use of fireblast and burn to have in hand to play in response to the IGG trigger.

You are factually incorrect on your erroneous 35% estimated range. A traditional fast zoo deck with 4x steppe lynx, with 11-12 fetches, fireblast, library and at least twelve burn spells with MBT, Teeg and Canonist boarded in is well over 50% post board; pre board it is about 40% and quite ostensibly, big zoo is no better then 25% and that is being generous. I suggest your actually play and by play I mean play a lot with both variations of zoo against the top three combo decks in the format and the results will be conspicuous.

[Hanni]

Big Zoo improves matchups that are already good matchups, and weakens matchups that are already bad matchups. The only matchup where Big Zoo seems to have the advantage is against other fast aggro (like the mirror), and the CounterTop matchup (when they resolve CounterTop early).

If you go one step further, and compare Sligh to Big Zoo, you can get an even better understanding. For reference, here's my Sligh list:

R/g/w Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [ROE] Forked Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [UL] Erase
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Both Big Zoo and Sligh are going to beat Goblins and Merfolk, although Sligh has a much better tribal matchup than Big Zoo.

Sligh runs enough burn to beat most non-Counterbalance control decks, and can often race an active CounterTop lock (i.e kill them before they get the lock going). Big Zoo struggles against most non-Counterbalance control decks because it's not capable of putting enough pressure on with early beats/late burn, and it's bigger guys are still very manageable. Against CounterTop, Big Zoo has enough cards out of the Counterbalance curve to play through an active CounterTop lock. CounterTop is one of two matchups where I'd say Big Zoo is better than Sligh.

Against other fast aggro decks, Big Zoo wins because it's more midrange-y, although Sligh can still beat Big Zoo by burning them out. Still, I'd say this is Big Zoo's other matchup that is better than Sligh. Against other midrange aggro decks, Sligh will win by simply burning the other player out midgame if they don't have lifegain (Jitte/Rhox, etc). Against other midrange aggro decks, Big Zoo is outclassed by better midrange gameplans (like The Rock).

Against Combo, Sligh can goldfish turn 3, almost always by turn 4. Against slower combo like Show and Tell, Sligh usually wins. Against faster combo like Belcher, Sligh can sometimes survive a turn 1 EtW Assault. Against Tendrils, they cannot effectively use Ad Nauseam as a draw engine, typically slowing them down a turn or two, which is sometimes enough to get in there. Big Zoo dies miserably to all forms of combo.

That's my evaluation of it, but maybe I'm wrong.

[lordofthepit]

Big Zoo improves matchups that are already good matchups, and weakens matchups that are already bad matchups. The only matchup where Big Zoo seems to have the advantage is against other fast aggro (like the mirror), and the CounterTop matchup (when they resolve CounterTop early).

I think that's a reasonable assessment (in general, there are exceptions), and the implication is "you want to strengthen your bad matchups, rather than your good ones".

That implication isn't entirely accurate though. First of all, you want to strengthen your matchups against the expected metagame, weighting according to how much you expect a given archetype to be represented. But my second contention is that it's more important to strengthen those matchups that can go either way. In other words, assuming decks A, B, and C are equally represented, you don't gain much by improving your deck A matchup (per-game) from 90% to 100%, but you also don't gain much by improving your matchup against B from 0% to 10%. Even if you do fluke into a win against B or a loss against A, the other two games in the match are likely to go as expected. Moreover, you probably have to devote a disproportionate number of resources (maindeck and sideboard choices) to improving matchup B for such a small incremental gain. It's better to focus on making matchup C (a 50-50 matchup) a slightly favorable one.

Advantages of Big Zoo
As for the individual archetypes, I'd say Big Zoo is stronger the following:
- Merfolk: Still a great matchup, but now you're less likely to lose to manascrew.
- Goblins: See above. Note, however, both have the caveat that you are much more reliant on green creatures than before, so your games 2 and 3 become substantially weaker if they're splashing for Perish.
- Zoo (pseudomirror): This usually comes down to whoever can stick the big creature or planeswalker, and you simply run more.
- Counterbalance: You run a higher curve (helps against Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives) and more guys that survive Firespout. Planeswalkers are hard to deal with. I've found this more than offsets fast Zoo's speed advantage.
- Control decks: You don't need to overextend as much, so in general, this is in Big Zoo's advantage. Note, however, that Thopter decks is more of a "combo" that almost locks you out immediately unless you have dedicated hate, so to that extent, I'd rather be playing fast Zoo (at least preboard before I bring in my hate). I also think this is where decks running Punishing Fires (I'd hesitate to even call them Zoo at this point) have an additional advantage because they have inevitability that cannot get removed, but obviously, running that tech introduces weaknesses in other matchups.
- Stompy decks: A higher curve gets around Chalices much more easily, and is less susceptible to Trinisphere. In addition, Noble Hierarch > Blood Moon effects.
- Lands decks: Being able to run Wasteland to get rid of that annoying Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm can mean the difference in the game. Noble Hierarch pays for itself even under a Tabernacle and slides under Ensnaring Bridges. Elspeth and Ajani are hard to drop, but pretty much not removable outside of EE at 4 or recurring Barbarian Rings, which are unlikely, and they will single-handedly own the Lands deck with their ultimate abilities. More lands means they'll have to work harder to Wastelock you out. I find that this combination works better than the speed of Big Zoo (unless you're running Price of Progress, which is amazing in this matchup).
- Tempo decks: You run more lands, Noble Hierarchs, and Knight of the Reliquaries, and you're not as reliant on running a fetchland into a Stifle to satisfy Steppe Lynx, so you have some inherent advantage against their strategy.

Advantages of regular Zoo
- Merfolk and Goblins with the black splash, after games 2 and 3. Sometimes, you just get blown out by Perish because you may or may not run Lavamancer, and you generally don't have the Steppe Lynxes, Kird Apes, Loam Lions, Figures of Destiny, and Stoneforge Mystics (or at least not as many).
- Fast combo. I'm actually 2-0 against good storm players with Big Zoo, whereas I've never beaten one with Fast Zoo, even with amazing draws (Nacatl, Steppe Lynx for 4, multiple burn), but that comes at the expense of dedicating more hate cards in the sideboard against Tendrils combo and less against "fair" decks. But the problem is that my hate cards of choice, until recently (Leyline of Sanctity and Null Rod, the latter of which is very versatile) aren't very good against other combo decks (Reanimator, Show and Tell, High Tide combo, etc.).

I wouldn't say Fast Zoo is a full turn faster in goldfishing, but I'd say it's capable of goldfishing a turn faster maybe 30-50% of the time than Big Zoo (esp. with Steppe Lynxes and Fireblasts), which can certainly be the difference. Moreover, fast Zoo "frontloads" that damage whereas Big Zoo only sort of catches up by swinging a turn later with bigger creatures (or more creatures, powered out by Hierarch). This means that even in those games where Big Zoo might goldfish in the same turn as fast Zoo, fast Zoo might be able to bring an Ad Nauseam deck out of range faster (note: similar reasoning applies for Doomsday combo).

Note: Meddling Mage is a very versatile card that can provide some level of hate against every combo deck in the format, but it's generally not crippling as crippling as a Gaddock Teeg or Null Rod can be. If you have a lot of diverse combo in your format, then I don't know why you're running Zoo, but if you had to run Zoo, Big Zoo can give you reliable access to Meddling Mage, which fast Zoo can't. troopatroop has much more experience with this.

Tossup?
- Dredge: I'm not sure this goes one way or another, and it really comes down to ripping your gravehate, but if I had to guess, I think this is slightly better for fast Zoo. This is because it's more likely to burn through or swarm for the final damage despite a bunch of Zombies, and the smaller Apes and Lions actually are useful because you can kill them more easily to remove their Bridges.

Conclusion
I'm a proponent of Big Zoo in the current metagame, because at least locally, it comes down to beating the Tribal decks, the mirror, and Counterbalance.

[Catitas]

Conclusion
I'm a proponent of Big Zoo in the current metagame, because at least locally, it comes down to beating the Tribal decks, the mirror, and Counterbalance.

I already said that here but people tend to ignore it... Although in your analysis i would add this Countertop decks are tier 1 again so as expected storms decks are decreasing in numbers wich keeps favoring big zoo that has good matchups against everything except storm combo decks...

So again... I'll say Big Zoo is the best metagame call right now...

[Fuzzy]

Again this discussion? Big Zoo fans, go back to you thread on Developmental Decks. Here I want bash with creatures, not play Red Bant.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Again this discussion? Big Zoo fans, go back to you thread on Developmental Decks. Here I want bash with creatures, not play Red Bant.

^Agreed. I'm looking to pick up this deck (I need a change from storm combo once in a while), and would love to discuss optimal fast lists instead.

[Dzra]

Big Zoo improves matchups that are already good matchups, and weakens matchups that are already bad matchups. The only matchup where Big Zoo seems to have the advantage is against other fast aggro (like the mirror), and the CounterTop matchup (when they resolve CounterTop early).

Alternatively though, you have to think about what other aggressive decks you could be running instead. It seems like the better choice would be between playing a midranged Zoo and Storm.

Storm combo is faster, more consistent, and just plain better against all of fast Zoo's good MUs (D&T, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo). Storm and fast Zoo both have bad MU's VS Countertop, although admittedly Storm has a worse MU against CTop than Zoo. Storm is also better at some of Zoo's fair-to-bad MUs (Rock, Enchantress, other combo). Even a good MU that splashes Black for Perish is potentially terrible for any Zoo. Both Zoo's have trouble with Combo, although the faster Zoo would obviously have a better chance.

So why play Zoo at all? Because with the right build, you can get a fair MU vs Countertop and still keep your good MUs good. You're trading game against Storm for game against CTop. Let CTop decks hate out the Storm, they're better at it anyways.

[e=mc^2]

Speaking of hating out storm, what do you guys think about Phyrexian Revoker? Seems like it could help out with storm by naming LED, and would also work against top in the CB MU. I don't play big zoo, so its the only Pithing Needle I would playing my 75. Has anyone tested it out?

[jandax]

If you're playing Big Zoo, it's more consistent to play Needle over the revoker. In many match ups, there is opposing removal that otherwise misses the plain artifact Needle is. Yet, it can't do other things like Revoker can. It has a 2/1 body and indeed abuses abilities Needle doesn't cover like the aforementioned LED.

Depending on what you're up against, you could go one or the other. In a scene with lots of agro, Zoo Goblins maybe Bant colored decks, there's going to be lots of spot removal, so needle would therefore be better than revoker. In a stormy or control oriented scene, revoker would probably be handy.

But I gotta agree with Fuzzy. Read what he did thur

[Hanni]

Alternatively though, you have to think about what other aggressive decks you could be running instead. It seems like the better choice would be between playing a midranged Zoo and Storm.

Storm combo is faster, more consistent, and just plain better against all of fast Zoo's good MUs (D&T, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo). Storm and fast Zoo both have bad MU's VS Countertop, although admittedly Storm has a worse MU against CTop than Zoo. Storm is also better at some of Zoo's fair-to-bad MUs (Rock, Enchantress, other combo). Even a good MU that splashes Black for Perish is potentially terrible for any Zoo. Both Zoo's have trouble with Combo, although the faster Zoo would obviously have a better chance.

So why play Zoo at all? Because with the right build, you can get a fair MU vs Countertop and still keep your good MUs good. You're trading game against Storm for game against CTop. Let CTop decks hate out the Storm, they're better at it anyways.

Well, I'm biased in my opinion because I play Sligh, not Fast Zoo. Sligh is fundamentally different from Zoo; I play 4 green creatures total (so good luck with Perish), and even if the opponent casts a Firespout, I usually don't care. Most decks aren't casting Firespout until turn 3, and by that point I'm only a Bolt or two away from the win anyway.

My Sligh list goldfishes turn 3 frequently, and almost never past turn 4. Obviously in live games, it takes longer to actually win (unless I literally am goldfishing my opponent), but my domination over the board is still there.

CounterTop is only a bad matchup for my Sligh deck if my opponent has a perfect draw; Turn 1 Top turn 2 Counterbalance might shut off most of my deck, but it doesn't handle my creature swarm that is already on the board; they still need Firespout/Goyf/etc. Most of the time, my CounterTop opponent's simply don't get the lock into play before they are dead. So while I would still say it's not a great matchup, it's not a horrible matchup either.

My Sligh list still smashes Rock, Enchantress, etc. The biggest difference between Sligh and Storm Combo I would say is deck difficulty. Sligh has relatively all the same good matchups as Storm Combo, similar bad matchups (in some cases), but Sligh is much easier to pilot. In a smaller tournament this might not matter, but a deck that pretty much autopilots itself stands a greater chance of doing well at a large event, especially if the player piloting the deck isn't a Pro or really good at Magic. My Sligh list I posted is rediculously consistent and redundant, and just gets in there for lethal through all sorts of setbacks; it's very resilient.

Storm Combo is easily hated, Sligh is not. Storm Combo loses to Merfolk, Sligh destroys Merfolk. Merfolk is arguably the most popular and most consistent performing Tier 1 deck in the format.

I realize this is a Zoo thread, and that I'm discussing Sligh right now, but that's only to explain my point. I think Fast Zoo is better positioned in the metagame for various reasons, and I think Sligh is the best variation of Fast Zoo. My 2 cents.

[Dzra]

I don't think going too far on the slow side is the right answer either. I disagree with playing Noble Hierarchs and Wastelands in Zoo just as much as I do Steppe Lynx and 16+ Burn spells. My point is that if you are going to go down the path of pure speed, Storm is faster and more versatile. Storm has just as good a chance at racing Countertop as Sligh does, but Countertop still crushes both more often than not. If you want to play Zoo in a big tournament right now, you are going to have to play something that has a better than iffy Countertop MU. If you are adjusting your deck to your local meta then that's cool too, but that's not what I'm talking about.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I'm biased in my opinion because I play Sligh, not Fast Zoo. Sligh is fundamentally different from Zoo; I play 4 green creatures total (so good luck with Perish), and even if the opponent casts a Firespout, I usually don't care. Most decks aren't casting Firespout until turn 3, and by that point I'm only a Bolt or two away from the win anyway.

My Sligh list goldfishes turn 3 frequently, and almost never past turn 4. Obviously in live games, it takes longer to actually win (unless I literally am goldfishing my opponent), but my domination over the board is still there.

CounterTop is only a bad matchup for my Sligh deck if my opponent has a perfect draw; Turn 1 Top turn 2 Counterbalance might shut off most of my deck, but it doesn't handle my creature swarm that is already on the board; they still need Firespout/Goyf/etc. Most of the time, my CounterTop opponent's simply don't get the lock into play before they are dead. So while I would still say it's not a great matchup, it's not a horrible matchup either.

My Sligh list still smashes Rock, Enchantress, etc. The biggest difference between Sligh and Storm Combo I would say is deck difficulty. Sligh has relatively all the same good matchups as Storm Combo, similar bad matchups (in some cases), but Sligh is much easier to pilot. In a smaller tournament this might not matter, but a deck that pretty much autopilots itself stands a greater chance of doing well at a large event, especially if the player piloting the deck isn't a Pro or really good at Magic. My Sligh list I posted is rediculously consistent and redundant, and just gets in there for lethal through all sorts of setbacks; it's very resilient.

Storm Combo is easily hated, Sligh is not. Storm Combo loses to Merfolk, Sligh destroys Merfolk. Merfolk is arguably the most popular and most consistent performing Tier 1 deck in the format.

I realize this is a Zoo thread, and that I'm discussing Sligh right now, but that's only to explain my point. I think Fast Zoo is better positioned in the metagame for various reasons, and I think Sligh is the best variation of Fast Zoo. My 2 cents.

So you are you playing 4 Goyfs or 4 Nacatls in your sligh version? I'm guessing you use Goblin Guide, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl, and Grim Lavamancer as your dudes and it's chock full of burn (Bolts, Chains, Fireblasts, Helix's). I'd also be interested in seeing what Green Sun's Zenith could do for you to get a dude down in the face of Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I'd be interested in a list. Maybe not a list on here, but a link to your list? Thanks!

BTW, I don't think Perish/Firespout/CounterTop are as scary as Chalice of the Void @1 for a sligh deck.

[Professor Awesome]

Took Zoo to indi this weekend and tested out GSZ. It's the real deal. From grabbing the 1-of teeg main deck to beat ANT game one twice, to getting 3x QP vs stoneforge mystic deck, to just forcing the deck to give me my third and fourth goyf match after match, this card really ties the room together. I lost the 1st round to the countertop that I think went on to win it, then lost my second round 5 rounds later to classic tempo thresh and dropped to be able to get home before 3am.

matches from memory:
0-2 vs CB-top (game 2 mull to 4)
2-0 vs Sligh (Helix is good, basics are tech)
2-1 vs ANT (Orim's chant took him by surprise, GSZ to teeg ftw)
2-1 vs Sligh (Helix is good, basics are tech)
2-0 vs ANT (MD teeg ftw, silence effects took it home)
2-1 vs Junk (QP on demand to pop jitte and both swords, thanks GSZ)
1-2 vs Tempo Thresh (waste, stifle fetch, stifle fetch, game. g2 went normally. g3 waste, stifle fetch, stifle fetch game.)

Overall I didn't see too many Zoo decks in what I figured would be a meta that's very good for Zoo. I heard one Big Zoo did well, wish I could've been matched up against it or watched a match, because I've only heard about it, never seen it in action really. Seems like I'd rather play blue if I wanted to go the noble heirarch into big stupid dudes at the expense of burn route but maybe I'm wrong.

Zoo Gold

Land: 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy

Attack Dudes: 20
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore (probly cutting it, wasn't as tech as I thought, even with trample, and chinese in case they forget)
1 Gaddock Teeg

Burn: 12
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

Good Stuff: 7
4 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Notes:
Grim is a burn spell to me. He's terrible t1, I really don't want to ever see him or even draw him before turn 4 ever. He stays in because of the bad things he does to certain decks, but we aren't great friends.
I use Kird Ape instead of steppe lynx because he can participate in combat. He can block t1 lackey, in fact he can block without holding back fetches and diluting his attacks. Steppe Lynx is very swingy, and builds momentum if you're on the play, but he's a wet noodle to me when you're playing catch up. He's the perfect, amazing sligh-style dude for 1, but I don't care for him in standard zoo.
I don't use loam lion because the ftv picture of kird ape is way cooler. Also, if I dropped him I could no longer say I play with kitties and monkeys. And BEB on kird ape is pretty narrow.
I think I'm ready to go back to 4x Windswept Heath and down to 3x Arid Mesa. Zendikar fetches might've gotten me overzealous and I'm not playing Fireblast any longer, so the extra 1 g/w basic grabber is better than r/w.

The day before I went 2-2 at the legacy challenge thing, beating ANT 2-0, Junk 2-1, then losing to Belcher 2-0 and something else I've forgotten. Got one pack for my troubles, opened a foil Thrun. seems good.

[Mr. Safety]

I picked up 3 GSZ's for the exact reason you mentioned: toolbox. It gives zoo better game 1 mu's vs. combo (with Teeg maindeck) and you can run silver bullets in the sideboard (Vexing Shusher for example.) At a minimum, you get more Nacatls in the early game. Turn 1 Steppe Lynx, turn 2 GSZ into Nacatl isn't a bad play at all.

[CaBaaL]

what do we do against a Phyrexian Crusader ? do i have to use crap like: Lignify ?

[Nelis]

what do we do against a Phyrexian Crusader ? do i have to use crap like: Lignify ?

Ghostfire or Pyrite Spellbomb if its really troublesome but better just block it with Goyf or Nacatl.

[Eddy Wally]

Is Phyrexian Crusader really that prevalent?

Also: has anybody ever tested Journey to Nowhere in place of Path to Exile? It's a turn slower, but won't boost their tempo.

[Mark Sun]

what do we do against a Phyrexian Crusader ? do i have to use crap like: Lignify ?

You drop from the low tables and find something else to do?

I'm fairly certain that Infect won't be relevant in Legacy for a while, at least not until more powerful cards are printed. Until then, I'm not too worried about it. If I run into it in my first round of Swiss, it apparently isn't my day.

[Dzra]

Played Zoo today. Round 1: Show and Tell. Round 2: Tendrils. Flip the table. /peace

[jandax]

definitely zoo's fault.

[troopatroop]

Played Zoo today. Round 1: Show and Tell. Round 2: Tendrils. Flip the table. /peace

This is my issue with the Zoo deck. You will always be unfavored against any deck that wins via spells. In the current Legacy format, I find that winning that way is more appealing to more players. As Legacy becomes more competitive, losing to the scrubs playing combo is a hard pill to swallow for me. Merfolk and Goblins are cheap to build, But I'm seeing more and more players packing Show and Tell, Tendrils, and Natural Order. When you have 0 say over the spells on the stack, you have to dedicate your deck to beating the fair decks. Such is the product of not playing U or B in Legacy. However, decks like Counterbalance, Lands, and MUD can have great Zoo matchups anyway. Yes this deck is a marvel of consistency, but you fold to too much of the room for my taste.

In General, We're all looking to play the best deck. The best cards in Legacy (Brainstorm, Force, Spell Snare) are all in blue. It's often been said that Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are actually blue cards, but what of Wild Nacatl? Nacatl to me is the fundamental reason to play Naya. However, we've seen Zoo with blue do really well at GP Chicago already.

Kurtis Droge's Blue Zoo circa 2009

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Kird Ape
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Fire/Ice
4 Ponder
2 Path to Exile
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare

3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle
1 Submerge
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Tormod's Crypt


So the premise is simple. The blue cards in Legacy are too good not to play. For example, Brainstorm + Fetchlands is a pillar of good Legacy. Superior card selection at all points in the game, and digging power. Force of Will and Daze are what stops combo dead, while not being dead in other matchups. Since Wild Nacatl is not barred from blue deck, why not play him? He's a wonderful attacker and blocker, and his mana cost is obviously ideal. Pumping Nacatl is made possible by Tundra, Volcanic Island, and the Plateau. Enemy colored fetches make this prospect even easier to execute than it was, and I've been working on my own take. Knight of the Reliquary seems stronger than Ranger of Eos, and Kird Ape is just outdated. Howabout this?

Blue Zoo, circa 2011

3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Windswept Heath

3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

I could see the matchup with aggro to be weakened, but Pyroclasm in the board is sexy. Combo matches become sighs of relief, and the rogue factor is everpresent. Blowouts with Stifle/Wasteland can happen, and Countering spells makes your creatures more devastating. I've just found the Blue to be much better than the Red. Lightning bolt and Chain lightning are great against some decks, but against others they're just a liability. Shouldn't the best deck in Legacy only play cards that are always good? Opinions, please.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

My first thought was, "Well, why don't I just play Bant?"

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, it looks like you've reinvented Tempo Thresh.

[JVzer0]

I think it looks interesting. My biggest worry would be that 4 colors is already going to be stretching the manabase, and adding wastelands on top of that seems risky. Nacatl does seem like an upgrade to any bant 1 drops.

I'm curious to know how this works out for you.

[jandax]

If we're toying with theory here, I found one huge hole in your logic. "Scrubs playing Combo" are often good match ups if oneself is practiced with Zoo. The only time I've lost to Storm was when I was playing against someone who knew how to play the deck. It's not fair to only consider card lists when analyzing match ups, the player aspect is of great importance as well. Give a noob a deck, and he'll play in a tournament. Teach a noob how to build a deck, and he's not a noob anymore.

Otherwise, I agree that you just reinvented Thresh

[Admiral_Arzar]

As Legacy becomes more competitive, losing to the scrubs playing combo is a hard pill to swallow for me.

I take offense at this, being a combo player. However, the post above mine is also correct in that combo is not generally as bad a matchup for zoo as most people think. Preboard, yeah, if they get the nuts it's gg. However, if they don't, and you mulligan into fast hands (preferably with several one drops), you have a great chance especially if you're on the play. This is especially true for combo decks focused around engines that involve losing life (Ad Nauseam, Doomsday).

Postboard, all you need to do is slow them down for a turn or two with hate, and the sheer speed and consistency of this deck will get you there a lot of the time. Keep in mind it's also quite possible to race Show and Tell if your hand is reasonably quick. Packing Red Blasts is also a good way to improve that matchup.

[troopatroop]

My first thought was, "Well, why don't I just play Bant?"

Wild Nacatl is the reason.


I think it looks interesting. My biggest worry would be that 4 colors is already going to be stretching the manabase, and adding wastelands on top of that seems risky.

People get so caught up in how many colors they're playing. What you should be looking at is what cards you're trying to cast. Do you see any red symbols of mana in the maindeck? That means I only need 3 colors of mana. Volcanic Island has the benefit of being a mountain. That's why this idea is viable in the first place. If you look closely, my list plays 23! lands with Wasteland. I've tested the deck, and it runs smoothly.


If we're toying with theory here, I found one huge hole in your logic. "Scrubs playing Combo" are often good match ups if oneself is practiced with Zoo. The only time I've lost to Storm was when I was playing against someone who knew how to play the deck

But Jandax, Obviously anyone entering a tournament with Storm knows how to play it. It's not hard to play a deck of combination Magic cards and win with it. People who play combo are typically the people trying to win the easiest way they know how. These are the people that will be easy to outplay if your deck is capable of it, but Zoo isn't capable of responding to anything like that game 1. Yes, tight play can yield wins against combo, but in my testing the matchup was always abysmal, no matter how fast my deck was.

Combo decks don't need the "nuts" to goldfish Zoo. They need an assortment of cards and mana to cast their spells, that's it. I'm simply pointing out that you can run the most powerful creatures from this deck in a blue shell. I think the deck is better for it, but time will tell.

[zmattk]

But Jandax, Obviously anyone entering a tournament with Storm knows how to play it. It's not hard to play a deck of combination Magic cards and win with it. People who play combo are typically the people trying to win the easiest way they know how. These are the people that will be easy to outplay if your deck is capable of it, but Zoo isn't capable of responding to anything like that game 1. Yes, tight play can yield wins against combo, but in my testing the matchup was always abysmal, no matter how fast my deck was.

Combo decks don't need the "nuts" to goldfish Zoo. They need an assortment of cards and mana to cast their spells, that's it. I'm simply pointing out that you can run the most powerful creatures from this deck in a blue shell. I think the deck is better for it, but time will tell.

I disagree with your statement. I play combo, and I have to admit it is one of the most difficult decks I have ever played (I've also played Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, Stax, Affinity to name a few). Sure some of them like Spring Tide or Belcher take no thought at all, but the others such as TES, ANT, and DDFT are some of the most complex decks you can learn. That is the reason I like them though. Not because I want to win as fast as I can, it's because I love the complexity of the deck.

Sure people starting out playing combo probably think, "Oh, I'll just goldfish people and win." But those are the ones who have no idea what they are doing and get massacred in a tournament.

Also, if you think it is not that hard to "outplay a combo player" or that it's easy to win playing combo because that's what your deck is designed to do, I dare you to try it out. Then try it out with your opponent having 2 Force of Will and 2 Spell Pierce in their opening 7 or with a Gaddock Teeg out on the field. I hardly call having a Teeg out, outplaying someone.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Off topic, but it's easy for a player to Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam and win (or kill themselves).

But it's hard for a scrub to Doomsday with 16 storm.

[ajfennewald]

Postboard, all you need to do is slow them down for a turn or two with hate, and the sheer speed and consistency of this deck will get you there a lot of the time. Keep in mind it's also quite possible to race Show and Tell if your hand is reasonably quick. Packing Red Blasts is also a good way to improve that matchup.
main deck karakas plus Kotr helps a ton vs show and tell too

[troopatroop]

I disagree with your statement. I play combo, and I have to admit it is one of the most difficult decks I have ever played (I've also played Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, Stax, Affinity to name a few). Sure some of them like Spring Tide or Belcher take no thought at all, but the others such as TES, ANT, and DDFT are some of the most complex decks you can learn. That is the reason I like them though. Not because I want to win as fast as I can, it's because I love the complexity of the deck.

Sure people starting out playing combo probably think, "Oh, I'll just goldfish people and win." But those are the ones who have no idea what they are doing and get massacred in a tournament.

Also, if you think it is not that hard to "outplay a combo player" or that it's easy to win playing combo because that's what your deck is designed to do, I dare you to try it out. Then try it out with your opponent having 2 Force of Will and 2 Spell Pierce in their opening 7 or with a Gaddock Teeg out on the field. I hardly call having a Teeg out, outplaying someone.

If everyone could stop taking everything so personally, that would be great.

I played T.E.S. for over a year. This was before Ad Nauseam and after, with Mystical Tutor and without. I know all about how complex that deck is, with playing around Counters, Discard, Hate Pieces. I was referring also to different decks. Ooze combo, Painter-Stone, Thopter Foundry, Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Storm. These decks win too fast for Zoo, and do it with ease. They're also becoming more popular. Storm is harder to play because it requires perfect sequencing against Blue decks. If you make a single mistake, you can get 2, 3, or X for 1ed by 0cc/1cc blue spells. That's pretty high pressure. Is Combo hard to play against Zoo? Absolutely not. They can ignore your cards pre-board, and you have to get lucky to win. I would rather play a deck with the same amazing creatures, that has blue cards that are good in every matchup. It seems like sound logic.

[ajfennewald]

I think your deck looks interesting but I think you end up with a much better combo matchup and a much worse tribal aggro matchup. Its hard to say if that makes the deck better or worse in the aggregate.

[Mark Sun]

main deck karakas plus Kotr helps a ton vs show and tell too

While I hate butchering the manabase to handle literally one matchup, the next list I play will probably have 3 KOTR MD and 1 Karakas. I do share everyones' sentiments in this thread of losing to Combo decks, and while packing Red Blasts is probably a good idea anyways (Merfolk, CBTop, Control), it generally isn't going to be enough. An addition 2-3 REB will probably not increase your chances of beating SnT by that much.

With a little less tribal than the other 5K's (2 in the Top 16 this time), I don't think the change will affect a whole lot. Your MD should be configured to beat the elephant in the room, right now it's Counterbalance.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the main concern is not whether or not zoo is a good deck...it is and always will be. The real quandry is 'how do I make it work?"

I've been toying around with naya sligh, with great results. The one deck that it really folds against is Staxx...and Staxx isn't that prevalent right now. I suppose Dragon Stompy is a concern as well because it touts the whole Chalice/Trini route to locking out an opponent. The biggest fear is that kind of lock with a sligh deck, because it turns your fast turns off. Chalice @1 on TURN 1 with Ancient Tomb makes me say 'poop'. Turn 2 Trinisphere delays my Pridemages, and makes me need alternative hate in my sideboard (Grips or Ancient Grudge.) If I take too long to get to 3 lands or they hit a Wasteland or 2, I say 'Big juicy poop. Game 2?'

My testing is essentially naya sligh, but keeping Pridemage and Path to Exile maindeck rather than the faster Goblin Guide/added burn. Path can be sb-ed out game 2 for more burn or hatebears, and Pridemage gives you options game one against a fast Chalice. Steppe Lynx and Nacatl become lightning fast with Reckless Charge, giving you a slightly faster clock. This opens you up to some mid-range control decks (Bant, New Horizons, Junk/Rock) but hopefully by that time you've gotten them to 10 life and you can Fireblast/Grim Lavamancer/Bolt your way to victory.

I think the real problem with Naya Sligh is it's lack of ability to re-group and bring mid-late game options. I'm fairly certain that a minimum of 2-3 Sylvan Librarys should be in Naya Sligh, and a playset wouldn't be bad either. Naya Sligh (any sligh really) historically has a hard time against ANY lifegain, too, so Sulfuric Vortex becomes a solid option in the board (assuming 21 lands.)

I"m curious if anyone else debating the faster Reckless Charge/additional burn avenue over the bigger Knight of the Reliquary mid-game beats. I'm also curious how many Library's you are using currently, and if you feel that it's workign well/not well (I currently use 2)

[ajfennewald]

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).

[Admiral_Arzar]

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).

I'm not entirely sure. I think it may be partly due to Counterbalance's resurgence (Zoo has never liked CTop very much), but I think it has more to do with people just not playing the deck. The one zoo player in my meta has been tearing it up, getting top-2 just about every week through a field of heavy control, chalice decks, and occasional combo. Also, I think too many people are deluding themselves into thinking "Big Zoo" is actually a real deck, which leads to them not doing well.

EDIT: Another issue is that a lot of the tribal decks are now splashing black for Perish/Nature's Ruin, which makes the matchup a LOT worse for zoo (especially "Big Zoo") postboard.

[jandax]

It depends on where you're looking.

Maybe the people in your area are fighting combo verses control and there isn't much room for aggro decks to make it to the top tables before facing more than one bad match up. You have to be specific when mentioning things like Tier X or metagame, not everyone everywhere is having the same experience.

Personally it's not a bad choice to run Nacatls around here, more people are doing so.

[Ziveeman]

Does Thrun have a place in Zoo? It avoids Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, and Firespout. Perish wouldn't be a problem since the decks that usually pack Perish to beat Zoo (Merfolk and Goblins usually in my experience) don't need Thrun boarded in. The 4/4 body is unimpressive, especially when facing Goyf in CB but Elspeth certainly makes Thrun really good.

I know this idea would probably get dismissed anyway but I'm gonna give it a run for at least a little bit. I saw it in an Enchantress vs CB matchup (Enchantress player played it) and the Counterbalance player couldn't get rid of it.

[KrzyMoose]

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).

People probably have no idea 1) how to build a good sideboard and 2) how to sideboard correctly. Also, people are probably not building their maindeck correctly in relation to the current metagame.

*edit*


Counterbalance's resurgence (Zoo has never liked CTop very much)

Call.

Again, I think most players do not really understand what's going on in the matchups. And, as a result, they are not sideboard'ing correctly.

[jandax]

For that reason, I think every Zoo sideboard should have three Sulfuric Vortex. It's not a hate card, it's a speedier clock. CB doesn't want a speedier clock and when does it bring in or keeps Enchantment hate? I also agree that most players don't understand match ups well enough to formulate sideboard strategies.

[GhekoN]

Hi, i am building my legacy zoo now and i am deciding what version to build. My local metagame is full of aggro-control, control and weird combos. For example last top8 was Stax, Combo Elves, Rock, Landstill, Merfolk, Enchantress, BG Discard and Dredge.

I think the best version riight now is fast version called Cat Sligh - Nacatl, Goyf, Guide, Lavamancer, Steppe lynx and a lot of burn - you are fast enought to beat slower combo decks and you can land enought creatures to fight counterbalance before they have countertop lock. But i see that people play a lot of different versions like Big Zoo with Hiearchs or with Stoneforge Mystic etc.
Can someone help me with this decision?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Hi, i am building my legacy zoo now and i am deciding what version to build. My local metagame is full of aggro-control, control and weird combos. For example last top8 was Stax, Combo Elves, Rock, Landstill, Merfolk, Enchantress, BG Discard and Dredge.

I think the best version riight now is fast version called Cat Sligh - Nacatl, Goyf, Guide, Lavamancer, Steppe lynx and a lot of burn - you are fast enought to beat slower combo decks and you can land enought creatures to fight counterbalance before they have countertop lock. But i see that people play a lot of different versions like Big Zoo with Hiearchs or with Stoneforge Mystic etc.
Can someone help me with this decision?

Don't run Big Zoo in this meta. The sligh build probably has the best chance of racing Enchantress and Dredge, so I would play that. It also has the best chance against storm combo (if that shows up) due to its speed and large amounts of burn. For that matter, having 20+ burn spells is really good against elf combo as well.

[lordofthepit]

Don't run Big Zoo in this meta. The sligh build probably has the best chance of racing Enchantress and Dredge, so I would play that. It also has the best chance against storm combo (if that shows up) due to its speed and large amounts of burn. For that matter, having 20+ burn spells is really good against elf combo as well.

I like Big Zoo in general, but I would agree with Admiral_Arzar here. Play normal Zoo or Cat Sligh.

[GhekoN]

Hi, after a hours of testing fast - medium fast version of zoo i am still not contended with my results.

My list:

4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MBS] Forest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [MBS] Plains
3 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills


4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl


2 [HOP] Lightning Helix
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
2 [EX] Price of Progress

Problems i had during testing:

1. Lands - Constantly drawing only one land or 4-5, every time i had Steppe Lynx i my openenig hand i never draw third land during 5-6 turns...

2. Steppe Lynx - It is nice and aggresive creature, but in deck with 21 lands?? Too often it was just 0/1 for x turns which cant block... I am really thinking about playing Kird Ape or Loam Lion instead.

3. Knight of the Reliquary - I started without him but sometimes this deck cant deal with opponents Knights or bigger creatures and also he can fuel Steppe Lynx. Also another card vs. Dredge and graveyard stuff after sb.

Some thoughts or ideas? :)

[lordofthepit]

How do you guys approach using fetchlands in the Goblins matchup? We're definitely favored, but it's not a cakewalk anymore.

Obviously, it depends on how many lands you have in your hand, the color requirements, whether you're applying pressure (or if they're applying pressure on you, especially with an active Vial). But do you tend to fetch out basics to protect against Wasteland? But that allows them to cut you off a color with Rishadan Port. What considerations do you make in this process?

[KrzyMoose]

2. Steppe Lynx - It is nice and aggresive creature, but in deck with 21 lands?? Too often it was just 0/1 for x turns which cant block... I am really thinking about playing Kird Ape or Loam Lion instead.


You should be SB'ing Steppe Lynx out against Aggro decks.

[Crazy Eddie]

You should be SB'ing Steppe Lynx out against Aggro decks.

Why would you want to do that? And what do you suggest to play instead?

[KrzyMoose]

Why would you want to do that? And what do you suggest to play instead?

The first step is to understand what you want to be doing in each matchup.

Here's my current list:

21 Lands, with 11 Fetchlands, 3 Basics, and 1 Treetop Village

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ranger of Eos

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast

Sideboard:
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bajuka Bog
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Let's take a look at the Zoo mirror. Neither of you can really get off to a super-fast start, since you both have a lot of removal that's good against the small dudes. The games, then, tend to go long, and it usually comes down to whoever draws more Tarmogoyfs/Paths/Knights. In general, you want to be the guy with the last, biggest monster on the table. (Though, this is true of many other Aggro matchups, not just the mirror). So, how do you do that? By having bigger guys and more removal than your opponent. You want your threats to be hard to answer, and you want to align your removal with your opponents threats.

Steppe Lynx (and, for that matter, Kird Ape and Loam Lion) is both smaller than your opponent's threats and very easy to answer. That does not sound like where you want to be.

So, post-board, we want better (and more) removal, and better threats.

A quick aside on building a sideboard: Every card in your sideboard should be able to be brought in against at least 2 decks. I feel that cards should answer different archetypes or general problems, rather than specific decks. Also, yes, I can't beat a fast combo deck. That's on purpose.

Path to Exile becomes the best spell in the deck, so we want more of them. Swords to Plowshares is the next best thing, so I recommend them. (The life-gain is usually irrelevant). They also come in against a bunch of different decks. Oblivion Ring is also pretty good, and very versatile.

You can think of Ranger of Eos as a 6-mana 9/8 or a 6-mana 6/5 with R: deal 2 damage to target creature or player. It's also pretty much immune to removal.

So, we have 6 cards to bring in. We know for sure we're taking Steppe Lynx/Loam Lion/Kird Ape out. What else? Well, your other creatures are actually all good enough to leave in. So that leaves spells. Lightning Bolt and Path obviously stay in, since they're the best at what they do. Sylvan Library helps you find your threats and answers. That leaves the other burn spells. I actually like Fireblast in the mirror. Since games tend to go long, you're never short on mana. I often just straight-up cast it, and even paying the alternate cost is not that bad. Lightning Helix is an instant, and helps you activate Library more. So, that gets the nod over Chain Lightning.

That's a brief explanation. I could easily write an article on Zoo, since there is always a lot going on. But, that should give you some idea of my thought process.

[Crazy Eddie]

KrzyMoose: thank you for your explanation. I understand your point, but you've limited yourself to the Zoo Mirror. Over here (the Netherlands) Zoo isn't that often played, so Zoo mirrors are quite rare, Merfolk and Gobbo's are the more popular aggro decks here. But given the popularity of those decks, I'm thinking about replacing my Steppe Lynxes for Kird Apes again, since they are also capable of blocking early Lackeys etc.
Also: my mainboard is comparable, but my sideboard looks quite different:
- 2x Umezawa's Jitte (Goblins, Merfolk, Mirror, other decks with Jitte's)
- 3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Rock, Control, Mirror, CounterTop)
- 3x Krosan Grip
- 2x Choke (quite Flexible at this moment)
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, anything that wants to cast a lot of spells)
- 1x Karakas/Bojuka Bog/meta-slot

Since I'm thinking about putting Kird Apes back into the mainboard, I can lower my number of fetches slightly, play three different basics (currently only one Mountain), and put Suppresion Fiels again in the board, since it's really good against anything with lots of fetches, Wastelands, Tops, Planeswalkers, etc.

[Mr. Safety]

I would suggest MBT's (Mindbreak Traps) for your sideboard. Zoo has a tough time vs. combo, and I typically sideboard 3x Ethersworn Canonist and 2-3 Mindbreak Traps.

If you see a lot of tribal aggro, I agree: Kird Ape/Loam Lion is better than Lynx but really only because you can sling Pyroclasm/Volcanic Fallout and your dudes live while you take out (hopefully) 2+ gobbos/fish.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I woudn't use MBT. Stick with Ethersworn Canonist, Pyrostatic Pillar and Gaddock Teeg.

[Mr. Safety]

What's your reasoning behind no MBT's? Canonist, Teeg, and Pillar just do the job better? I understand they are all effectively 'threats' that also stifle opposing combo...but NONE of them can stop a turn 1 combo.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Two Mindbreak Traps don't do that reliably either. They also don't always go off on turn one. Plus Mindbreak Trap doesn't support your own gameplan at all, the other options do. I usually run 3-4 Pyrostatic Pillar and 2-3 Gaddock Teeg, depending on what build I'm playing. In faster versions I use 4 Pyrostatic Pillar and 2 Gaddock Teeg, in slower builds I usually split them 3/3.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Green Sun's Zenith an option in the sideboard for Teeg/Shusher?

[Crazy Eddie]

Mindbreak Trap is unplayable because storm players run mainboard Duress and/or Orim's Chant (I'm talking about ANT and decks like it, because that's the storm deck you're most likely to face). And there is nothing that will reliable stop a turn one combo, fortunately it's so rare you don't have to expect to run across it. Green Sun's Zenith might work for Teeg, although it can be a turn to slow. And how do you want to stop combo with Shusher?

[Mr. Safety]

I was just opening up the conversation about Green Sun's Zenith + silver bullets, not for combo specifically. Shusher would be for the blue control matchups.

[troopatroop]

Zenith wouldn't be good in the SB, but silver bullets in the side are obv good with Zenith main.

[beebles]

Helloo All! This is the Zoo deck I belt for the SCG legacy open in New Jersey in a couple of weeks. I never play legacy but everyone I know that is going is playing either merfolk or goblins so I figure zoo is the best bet in a heavy tribal metagame. The only ever deck I have played in serious legacy tournaments is Goblins but I don't remember how to play it well enough. Also I play ichorid in vintage now and then but the decks seem very different.

I figure I play zoo and beat the tribal decks and hopefully have a 50/50 chance or so against Countertop and Combo with my sb hopefully.... I hope this works!

I don't know if anyone has any comments or whatever! I wanted to run stuff like Kird ape so I am not totally blown out by perish. I don't trust Steppe Lynx to not cost me games in a 8 or so round tournament. It seems like a lot of people HATE mindbreak trap but I don't want to just concede the belcher match up. Between that and pyroclasm I think I should have a shot.


4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasili Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Sylvan Library
4 Ligthning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Firesblast

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savavnah
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

SB
3 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuaka Bog
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mindbreak Trap

[Professor Awesome]

Orim's Chant has worked far better for me than Mindbreak Trap. It's worse vs belcher, but better vs everything else. Hate bears are mostly too slow, but they are still worth running; remember the rule of Zoo vs combo: One hate card in hand is useless, two is a game win.

A 1:1 split of Teeg in main and side is just fine if you're using 3 GSZ main. Which I advocate. ANT has zero outs to a g1 Teeg and he ranges from irrelevant to alright vs a bunch of other decks.

I don't see the appeal of Jotun Grunt in SB. He's slow.

One of each basic! Always one of each basic. From wasteland to price of progress, basics really tie the room together. 10 fetches is plenty, it won't hurt.

I wouldn't SB specifically vs Belcher in an 8 round tournament.

You mention just beating tribal, but call me crazy: I think Goblins is 55-45 vs Zoo g1, 65-35 g2&3. Weirding your t1 guy to get to swing with lackey, late game they have the advantage: ringleader to never run out of gas (Zoo's main problem) and the clock is ticking on SGC into kill you at instant speed. And post side if they draw a Perish they win the game, apes or not.

Mr Safety, one or two shusher in side would be solid, I wouldn't go so far as to run them main right now, though. Maybe a 1:1 split of both shush and teeg if CB top keeps rising, who knows.

[Jiaozy]

I'm not sure I'd play a version with Apes any longer since it's just too weak to CB and has no late game nor enough ways to end the game reliably.

As of now the best version of the deck is something along these lines. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36636)

You give up some explosiveness but have a FAR better mirror match and a mid to late game where you can still win, unlike the Ape-version that after turn 4 all it can offer is a 3/3 for 1.
If they manage to kill you first 1-2 dudes you're out in the cold with a version like that, since you basically scoop to Firespout.

It's not a case that you no longer see that kind of Zoo deck placing well but you just see the Big Zoo versions around: more reliable, better late game, better game against CounterTop, better game againt Landstill and you don't scoop to Firespout.

That setup can also use the Zenith a LOT better given the larger mana-base and since they're the next best thing since Survival of the Fittest, it's a HUGE pro to that list.

[beebles]

I don't know if Jotun Grunt is really too slow, looking at the latest ichorid lists most of them seem pretty slow, no LED/Deep Anal decks, so it isn't like they are likely to kill you turn 2, I wouldn't sweat the ichorid match up with 3 KoR and a Bojuka bog anyway.

My thinking of Jotnun grunt anyway was more to trump other decks running goyf and knight of the Reliquary like the mirror or gwb rock so the little monkeys and kitties can punch through the green wall of meat. I would imagine it would probably come in against the counterop decks running firespout too.

Second, http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21140_Too_Much_Information_Kansas_City_and_San_Jose_Legacy.html
according to that "Cat Sligh" has the highest win percentage fo any deck in legacy! Sadly only 4 players so it could just be a statiscal anomoly.

The big zoo decks seem to me to just be just Natural Order Progenitus Bant decks but without the Natural Orders or Force of Wills! If I am going to be running noble hiearch I sure as hell am also going to have natural order somewhere in the deck.

Completely crazy and random thought, but why DOESN'T big zoo run Natural Order? Just the awkwardness of drawing your one progenitus and not having brainstorm to shuffle it back?

I might take professor' awesomes suggestion and add another basic since I hate losing to mana screw/land destruction more than anything. Do you absolutely have to have horizon canopy? I have always hated that card, it doesn't pump your land matters dudes, and randomly deals you like 9 damage some games when you are mana screwed but it seems like every deck with KoR runs it.

[Ziveeman]

Orim's Chant has worked far better for me than Mindbreak Trap. It's worse vs belcher, but better vs everything else. Hate bears are mostly too slow, but they are still worth running; remember the rule of Zoo vs combo: One hate card in hand is useless, two is a game win.

A 1:1 split of Teeg in main and side is just fine if you're using 3 GSZ main. Which I advocate. ANT has zero outs to a g1 Teeg and he ranges from irrelevant to alright vs a bunch of other decks.

I don't see the appeal of Jotun Grunt in SB. He's slow.

One of each basic! Always one of each basic. From wasteland to price of progress, basics really tie the room together. 10 fetches is plenty, it won't hurt.

I wouldn't SB specifically vs Belcher in an 8 round tournament.

You mention just beating tribal, but call me crazy: I think Goblins is 55-45 vs Zoo g1, 65-35 g2&3. Weirding your t1 guy to get to swing with lackey, late game they have the advantage: ringleader to never run out of gas (Zoo's main problem) and the clock is ticking on SGC into kill you at instant speed. And post side if they draw a Perish they win the game, apes or not.

Mr Safety, one or two shusher in side would be solid, I wouldn't go so far as to run them main right now, though. Maybe a 1:1 split of both shush and teeg if CB top keeps rising, who knows.

I agree with basically everything you said. I run Silence instead of Chant but it accomplishes the same thing. Casting it in response to a Duress or another Chant delays ANT by at least a turn. Since ANT doesn't always go off turns 1 or 2 because of the number of cantripping, that extra turn can by you enough time to swing in at least large enough to stop an Ad Nauseam. Also GSZ turn 2 (I run Big Zoo) for Teeg game 1 is GG for ANT.

Vs Goblins I would never keep a hand that only has a creature as a blocker. As you said, it's too unreliable. Goblin decks have Weirding, Stingscourger, Bolt, and Incinerator (for the little guys). As long as you resolve a giant Knight or Goyf they can't do much as long as you keep applying pressure. Elspeth helps in this regard by making tokens.

I think that Big Zoo these days is the way to go. I've won a ton of games vs Countertop simply by casting GSZ over and over again until they were swarmed by Knights and Goyfs. I've been testing Thrun in this match-up as well. He's pretty solid when Countertop locks you out and they're still finding a threat, which happens a lot. The exalted triggers as well as Elspeth make the 4/4 body a bit better.

[Mr. Safety]

Orim's Chant has worked far better for me than Mindbreak Trap. It's worse vs belcher, but better vs everything else. Hate bears are mostly too slow, but they are still worth running; remember the rule of Zoo vs combo: One hate card in hand is useless, two is a game win.

I've never heard that rule, but it's AWESOME. Thanks for that knowledge. Makes perfect sense on the Orim's Chant argument, too. How do you feel about Canonist in the sideboard? Not fetchable with GSZ, but is it still worth any slots?


One of each basic! Always one of each basic. From wasteland to price of progress, basics really tie the room together. 10 fetches is plenty, it won't hurt.

Word up.


Mr Safety, one or two shusher in side would be solid, I wouldn't go so far as to run them main right now, though. Maybe a 1:1 split of both shush and teeg if CB top keeps rising, who knows.

I wouldn't run them in the main. I AM running GSZ x3 in the maindeck, allowing for the silver bullet package (sideboard 1 Teeg, 1 Shusher)

[Jiaozy]

Completely crazy and random thought, but why DOESN'T big zoo run Natural Order? Just the awkwardness of drawing your one progenitus and not having brainstorm to shuffle it back?

I might take professor' awesomes suggestion and add another basic since I hate losing to mana screw/land destruction more than anything. Do you absolutely have to have horizon canopy? I have always hated that card, it doesn't pump your land matters dudes, and randomly deals you like 9 damage some games when you are mana screwed but it seems like every deck with KoR runs it.That's exactly why you don't run NO-Pro, without Top nor Brainstorm, drawing your lone Progenitus means you have 3 dead cards in the rest of the deck and one in hand.

You run Hierarch mainly to have a tempo boost against decks like CounterTop and Landstill, so that you can cast your big spells with little to no worries of Daze and Pierce. Also, turn 2 active Pridemage is some good against most decks and a turn 2 Reliquary is often GG against Merfolk and awesome against Gobbos, not to mention a turn 3 Elpeth/Ajani V.

Those stats are, as you said, for only 4 decks and for a grand total of 28 games.
From the look of it, 8 matches won by 2-1, a loss by 2-0 and a 1-1 draw, in total, so they all might have dropped off the tourneys after 3 rounds at best.
Or 8 win and 5 loss by 2-0 and a 1-1 draw.
Granted, those version are slightly better against Gobbo and Merfolk, but since CounterBalance and Landstill are on the rise, I'd like to play a deck that has a chance to win against those MUs aswell, unlike Cat Sligh.

Horizon Canopy as a 1of is fine, but you can easily avoid playing it because it hardly ever matters to fetch it with Reliquary to cantrip.

[beebles]

Natural order isn't TOTALLY dead if you draw the progenitus, it can turn noble hiearchs into goyfs or KoRs.... I suppose if you wanted to get really crazy you could run another target like Thrun or something.

[Mr. Safety]

Horizon Canopy as a 1of is fine, but you can easily avoid playing it because it hardly ever matters to fetch it with Reliquary to cantrip.

I don't know of ANY zoo player that would fetch it for a cantrip. It would be better to simply put Knight into the red zone. Bullets with Knight are usually Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Wasteland (in big zoo), and fetchlands to feed Steppe Lynx.

Horizon Canopy has always been just a simple way to draw an extra card for a turn when your land count is sufficient. It has great synergy with Sylvan Library, allowing you to essentially pay 2 mana rather than 4 life for an extra card.

[troopatroop]

Natural Order is win more. Elspeth wins the game all the same, and can bring back games when you're behind.

[trivial_matters]

I played the following in a small tournament:

//Lands
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

//Creatures
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

//Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix

//Sorceries
2 Green Sun's Zenith

//Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

I went 3-0-1, beating Countertop, Sneak Attack and a weird mono-black deck featuring Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage as well as an assortment of other vampires. The loss was to another Countertop deck. In the top 4 I won against a Threshold variant and lost in the finals against the very same Countertop deck.

I'm quite satisfied with the list. The two losses against Countertop very close affairs, and I made some bad play mistakes. I definitely think Big Zoo has much better chances in this match-up than traditional Zoo. Firespout is still annoying, but less so than with the latter. On the other hand, it is weaker against combo, but the sideboard is there to fix this problem. I've never bothered with Mindbreak Trap since it seems easier for Storm players to annul (Duress, Orim's Chant/ Silence). Green Sun's Zenith also fetches Gaddock Teeg. Green Sun's Zenith in general is quite powerful. I don't know about running a full playset though; I haven't tried that yet. Lightning Helix is additional removal.
One thing I'd like to change is to add one more Horizon Canopy, but I don't know what to remove for it.

Regarding Goblins, I'm a bit worried about this match-up as well. Goblin Ringleader is definitely the biggest problem. He ensures there are always more goblins on the way. Mogg War Marshal is a nuisance and Siege-Gang Commander allows them to finish you off quickly when low on life-points. One possibility would be to play something like Pyroblasm in the sideboard. Does anyone have experience with this?

[Professor Awesome]

I've never heard that rule, but it's AWESOME. Thanks for that knowledge. Makes perfect sense on the Orim's Chant argument, too. How do you feel about Canonist in the sideboard? Not fetchable with GSZ, but is it still worth any slots?

To elucidate on Chant, I'd recommend Ziv go to chants over silence if it isn't a money thing. A very common sb for me is -1 teeg +1 chant vs aggro. I stole a few games with a kicked chant on their upkeep. I'm not sold on canonist because she isn't green and actually stops you from making some fast plays you otherwise could have. I can't think of many advantages canonist has aside from dodging perish (not played by combo), letting you cast GSZ over her head, and not being named teeg so they can sit next to each other. I'd go up to 4 chants side before I added a mise, untutorable canonist.


I don't know of ANY zoo player that would fetch it for a cantrip. It would be better to simply put Knight into the red zone. Bullets with Knight are usually Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Wasteland (in big zoo), and fetchlands to feed Steppe Lynx.

Horizon Canopy has always been just a simple way to draw an extra card for a turn when your land count is sufficient. It has great synergy with Sylvan Library, allowing you to essentially pay 2 mana rather than 4 life for an extra card.

The only times I ever tap knight is to get a canopy and pop it with the floating mana. Granted, the only times I ever tap her instead of attack is when you're clogged up with dudes on both sides vs aggro and you block+tap hoping to draw that path/burn.

@beebles non-LED ichorid is relatively "slow", but tireless tribe is such a nuisance that it doesn't even matter. I'd rather play against the faster combo style ichorid because at least they tried too hard and you could blow them out with a narco trigger on the stack bolt to kird ape t2. Now they just sit behind 1/5 walls for 1 and 'slow roll' you with 6 zombie tokens and chump blocks. Exile their GY? ok, eot discard troll, troll, bridge to stinkweed and make sure to sneer at the zoo guy and comment on bojuka/tormod's being nice tech. (my playtesting vs ichorid hasn't been sunshine and rainbows sorry if that's apparent :P).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

For reference here's my current list:

23 Land
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

20 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape

17 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Orim's Chant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

The only suspect cards are the number of Sylvan Libraries and the Umezawa's Jitte main deck. I'm not sure whether to run the 4th Grim Lavamancer or not. I hate drawing that card in multiples. Any ideas?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

So I'm definitely cutting Grim Lavamancer. I never want to see him, and he sucks on turn one. I rape Merfolk/Goblins enough already. I'm replacing the 3x Lavamancer with 3x Mother of Runes. Whenever I come up against this card with Zoo, I lose every game. I've seen the "light" and realized how freaking insane the card is. It does what the deck need, which is push through damage when the game is in a stall. Plus, it can be used to save random creatures from removal, and get past Jitte(Which also beats Zoo). +1 to Mother of Runes.

[lordofthepit]

So I'm definitely cutting Grim Lavamancer. I never want to see him, and he sucks on turn one. I rape Merfolk/Goblins enough already. I'm replacing the 3x Lavamancer with 3x Mother of Runes. Whenever I come up against this card with Zoo, I lose every game. I've seen the "light" and realized how freaking insane the card is. It does what the deck need, which is push through damage when the game is in a stall. Plus, it can be used to save random creatures from removal, and get past Jitte(Which also beats Zoo). +1 to Mother of Runes.

I've been pretty happy when I tried Mother of Runes in normal Zoo like six months ago. I know some other players (BreathWeapon?) recommended it too, but it's such an unconventional choice.

Let me know how it works for you.

Edit: It's always great for stalling out the ground when you're behind, but it's even better for protecting your fatties/making them unblockable. Plus since it's a less aggressive card, I think it's a better fit in those more midrange builds that run more fatties to begin with (i.e. 4 Goyf and 4 Knights at the minimum).

[lordofthepit]

Vs Goblins I would never keep a hand that only has a creature as a blocker. As you said, it's too unreliable. Goblin decks have Weirding, Stingscourger, Bolt, and Incinerator (for the little guys). As long as you resolve a giant Knight or Goyf they can't do much as long as you keep applying pressure. Elspeth helps in this regard by making tokens.

I've found that Goblin players (especially Rb players) will board out Lackey and Piledriver in games 2 and 3. They hope to win by manascrewing the Zoo player, making it to the late game where they can benefit from card advantage on the back of Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Matron, Siege-Gang Commander, Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg War Marshal, and Perish. I guess their logic is that Zoo has too much removal for Lackey and Piledriver to connect, so that can be to your advantage even when you don't actually have removal for the turn 1 Lackey.

[jandax]

I've been pretty happy when I tried Mother of Runes in normal Zoo like six months ago. I know some other players (BreathWeapon?) recommended it too, but it's such an unconventional choice.

Let me know how it works for you.

Edit: It's always great for stalling out the ground when you're behind, but it's even better for protecting your fatties/making them unblockable. Plus since it's a less aggressive card, I think it's a better fit in those more midrange builds that run more fatties to begin with (i.e. 4 Goyf and 4 Knights at the minimum).

Grim Lavamancer is also run in the fast builds, so the point is that if there is no other turn 1 play besides Nacatl or Steppe Lynx, it's better to have some lasting effect on the board via Mom's protection ability rather than a conflicting strategy between Goyf/KotR and lavamancers. It's like Merfolk running Standstill. Great card, usually win-moar, therefore it can be replaced to aid in mulitple and specific problem areas. I'm going to try it out for myself, I like the idea

[Doomsday]

For reference here's my current list:

23 Land
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

20 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape

17 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Orim's Chant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

The only suspect cards are the number of Sylvan Libraries and the Umezawa's Jitte main deck. I'm not sure whether to run the 4th Grim Lavamancer or not. I hate drawing that card in multiples. Any ideas?

Lavamancer is amazing, I wouldn't ever play less than 2. 23 land is A LOT. You're not even running KotR, you curve out at 2. If you're looking to cut cards I would start with a land or two. If you're looking to add cards I'd start with the 4th Chain Lightning. Loam Lion's better than Kird Ape unless you expect to see more Deathmark than BEB/Hydroblast. You also have more turn 1 white sources than red without fetching.

[trivial_matters]

Not playing Knight of the Reliquary at all is a mistake in my opinion.

Gaddock Teeg in the sideboard is overall more useful than Ethersworn Canonist.

[jandax]

Lavamancer is amazing, I wouldn't ever play less than 2. 23 land is A LOT. You're not even running KotR, you curve out at 2. If you're looking to cut cards I would start with a land or two. If you're looking to add cards I'd start with the 4th Chain Lightning. Loam Lion's better than Kird Ape unless you expect to see more Deathmark than BEB/Hydroblast. You also have more turn 1 white sources than red without fetching.

If I were running Kird Ape, I'd want to play against the guy who BEB's a Kird Ape. All day long. Same with Deathmark and Loam Lion. That's just theory that's never put into practice

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Lavamancer is amazing, I wouldn't ever play less than 2. 23 land is A LOT. You're not even running KotR, you curve out at 2. If you're looking to cut cards I would start with a land or two. If you're looking to add cards I'd start with the 4th Chain Lightning. Loam Lion's better than Kird Ape unless you expect to see more Deathmark than BEB/Hydroblast. You also have more turn 1 white sources than red without fetching.

There's a hair more Deathmark then BEB/Hydroblast in my meta. Also I own a singleton Arabian Nights Kird Ape. I love him :smile:

How's this sound:

-3 Horizon Canopy
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Treetop Village
+2 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Chain Lightning

This puts the list at:

21 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Treetop Village
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

22 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Kird Ape

17 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Orim's Chant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

And yes the sideboard is meta related. And what's everyones current view on Treetop Village? A lot of people I know say he sucks in Zoo, but I really like having him. I've seen him used in Morbid's lists and some of Alix Hatfield's lists.

Obviously he's good against board wipes, Humility and under Standstill. What do you folks think?

[Doomsday]

There's a hair more Deathmark then BEB/Hydroblast in my meta. Also I own a singleton Arabian Nights Kird Ape. I love him :smile:

How's this sound:

-3 Horizon Canopy
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Treetop Village
+2 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Chain Lightning

This puts the list at:

21 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Treetop Village
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

22 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Kird Ape

17 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Orim's Chant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

And yes the sideboard is meta related. And what's everyones current view on Treetop Village? A lot of people I know say he sucks in Zoo, but I really like having him. I've seen him used in Morbid's lists and some of Alix Hatfield's lists.

Obviously he's good against board wipes, Humility and under Standstill. What do you folks think?

I've never tried Treetop Village, how has it been working for you? I play almost this exact list. Mine is -1 Plateau, -1 Treetop Village, -1 Jitte, -1 Lavamancer, -1 Kird Ape; +1 Wooded Foothills, +1 Windswept Heath, +2 Price of Progress, +1 Loam Lion. I like the Chants way better than Traps in your sideboard. Has Canonist been better than Teeg for you in the board? I'd almost like a single maindeck Teeg and GSZs. 8 Nacatls, 8 Pridemages and 8 Goyfs is pretty good I hear, just not sure what can be cut.

EDIT: And not sure what you mean jandax. They just do some simple math and odds, and decide whether the resolved Ape will deal them more damage than a Bolt or Blast (he doesn't have Price of Progress, just Ape, Bolt Chain Lightning and Fireblast for red).

[KrzyMoose]

Treetop Village is insane.

Windswept Heath is the most important fetchland, so you should be playing four of that.

I suppose it depends on your meta, but I dislike Umezawa's Jitte, especially in the maindeck. It's okay against the tribal decks, but pretty lackluster against everything else.

I think you want one more Knight of the Reliquary.

[trivial_matters]

I don't know about Treetop Village and Standstill. Sure you can fetch it with Knight of the Reliquary under Standstill, but why would someone play Standstill in the first place when you have Knight of the Reliquary out? Assuming on the other hand that you have no creatures in play, the probability of drawing the single Treetop Village is very small. Fetching it preemptively doesn't seem good either, because you usually want to be attacking. I'm not saying the card is bad and I'll test it myself, but playing one copy won't help much against Standstill.

In combo match-ups, Ethersworn Canonist gets hit by artifact hate ran in some sideboards, for example in ANT, as well.That might or might not be relevant.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

@ Orim's Chant: This card has been amazing for me against combo. My meta has Tendrils Combo, Sneak Attack and Show and Tell decks. It work wonders. I prefer this over Gaddock Teeg, it's just a preference.

@ Ethersworn Canonist: I use this as combo hate pieces 4-5. My meta is also infested with Elves (combo and aggro versions.) This helps me catch up because sometimes they can just play more 1/1's than we can 3/3's.

@ Umezawa's Jitte: Tribal decks. My meta is full of them. It helps shore the match in my favor. Affinity is also huge in my meta. Answers Etched Champion.

@ Treetop Village: This card has been sick whenever I play it. It beats face and tramples for 3. The only time I'm happy to see it is when I have a god hand and wished it were a forest.

[jandax]

Question concerning TTV...

If we're being personal here, I'd rather have another KotR. THe mana requirement is around the same. You still have to untap with them.

Yet your own pro's about the card are valid, but if it is coming down to one card what of the following?:

It is the 21st land. Either it could be a spell or another land, but it'd be the first card to go if this list were to change

Does having a man land, and one card in 60, worth having less threats in a conventional form like another KotR?

If it were one of, couldn't it be simply a powerful spell worthy of a miser slot?

Or is the generic off chance that it could matter warrant an inclusion?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If we're being personal here, I'd rather have another KotR. THe mana requirement is around the same. You still have to untap with them.

Yet your own pro's about the card are valid, but if it is coming down to one card what of the following?:

It is the 21st land. Either it could be a spell or another land, but it'd be the first card to go if this list were to change

Does having a man land, and one card in 60, worth having less threats in a conventional form like another KotR?

If it were one of, couldn't it be simply a powerful spell worthy of a miser slot?

Or is the generic off chance that it could matter warrant an inclusion?

Depending on who shows up to the biweekly Legacy tournaments the slot changes to Karakas. If the Dredge or Sneak Attack decks don't show, it's usually a Treetop Village.

[jandax]

It's interesting that you keep it a land instead of adding or even using a spell.

Lucky you.

[BantFTW]

2 Horizon Canopy/ 1x canopy+ 1 karakas
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
22

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird ape/ loam lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 gaddock teeg
2 KOTR

3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning helix
2 Sylvan Library
3 green sun's zenith (quite a nice card but still testing it, ikd if I should go with it?)
2 price of progress

Any comments are welcome, ty

[Guevera59]

I don't post here very often but I have tournament report for SCG DC. I piloted Zenith Zoo to 7th place, with a 7 - 0 -2 swiss record.




Creatures//
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore

Enchantments//
3 Sylvan Library

Instants//
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries//
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands//
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SB//
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage


My brother came up with the list and we play tested the night before and made a few last minute changes.

We took out a 4th Knight for the miser Terravore. With GSZ (Green Sun's Zenith), we see Knight about every game so there was no real need for the 8th. The reason we chose Terravore was for decks like Goblins and Merfolk where the only thing that will win you the game is a 12/12 trampler to break the standstill. It's amazing with GSZ for the late-game tutor win.

In the sideboard, we thought it was necessary for the 5th tutorable hate card. Initially it was a one of Absolute Law that would allow us to bash in with unblockable Knights and Goyfs but we decided it was unnecessary, we switched to Ghostly Prison which turned out to do absolutely nothing in my Goblins mu. After the tournament we've decided to cut the last goblin hate card for a Karakas. S&T mu is almost unwinnable and a Karakas out of the board makes the mu about even if not in your favor.

You may be wondering why we MD StP over PtE. We play Wasteland and PtE is counteracts that strategy. The life gain isn't important because you're not looking to burn them out but to beat them down with huge Knights.

Great aspects of the deck:
-GSZ allows you to play only 2 Pridemage. Pridemage is a great card in many mu's and the exalted is amazing, but he is a terrible blocker and this deck has better things to do turn 2 than drop a Pridemage and swing. And if you really need to nuke an enchantment you can tutor for one via Sun. This aspect makes the Counterbalance mu extremely favorable. GSZ gets around Counterbance which allows you to sneak Pridemages through.

-The early acceleration lets you use Wasteland effectively. Turn one Nacatl, turn two Hierarch, Wasteland, nuke a land, swing for 3 is a very powerful play that I pulled off multiple times in the tournament. It's especially strong vs the Dark Horizons decks. The turn one play of GSZ into Dryad Arbor is very powerful as well. Its a one mana Rampant Growth, and if it's wasted or bolted turn one, it doesn't affect you at all because the deck doesn't NEED the acceleration but if it gets it, it can get out of hand real quick. The reason why I think this deck is better than other Big Zoo Lists is because GSZ is an amazing early game(GSZ for Arbor, Nacatl), mid game(Get Goyf, Pridemage), and late game card(Terravore RAWR!). It replaces Elspeth as the lategame bomb while also not being dead before the 4th-5th turn. Elspeth also needs Hierarchs to survive because 4 mana is simply too much in Legacy.

-Exalted! Played 6 creatures with exalted makes it so much easier to bash in with Goyfs and Knights. Against Dark Horizons, other Zoo decks, and Team America, having bigger versions of their creatures wins the game.


Here's a brief tourney report, sorry but it's not very detailed.

R1 Tom playing Bertoncini's mono blue merfolk list
Both games consist of clasic Zoo shenanigans, I burn and swords relevant dudes. GSZ gives me an unnaceptable amount of Goyfs in play which simply annihilate Merfolks unpumped fish. G1 he plays a Sower on a goyf, fortunately I ripped the StP so no worries. G2 He plays a Back to Basics on me, I luckily had both basics in play.
2-0
2-0

R2 Dom playing Mono Black Rack
Three awesome games of magic. He played Hypnotic Specters, Mishra's Factory, Nantuko Shade, and THE RACK. You may scoff but two racks in play does 6 a turn to me. I didn't see a rack G1 so after he crushed me G2 brought in the Jitte's which allowed me to stay above water. It was similar to playing against burn.
2-1
4-1

R3 Nick Patnode playing BR Goblins
First off, this guy is amazing at magic. I beat him G1 with a Terravore which he so wasn't ready for. G2 I land an active turn 3 Jitte, the game lasts about 30 minutes and he wins through it. G3 We go to time and I beat him on Turn 3 or 4(of time, not literally turn 3) with Terravore. This deck punishes goblins, Terravore is that good, and can be reliably tutored for with GSZ.
2-1
6-2

R4 Ray playing Dark Horizons
Zenith Zoo rofl stomps Dark Horizons. Your dudes are bigger, and the surprise Wastelands can punish their manabase. GSZ and Library just create too much CA for them to handle, especially when you kill Bobs instantly. Lavamancer sines in this MU. G1 I waste him to death, G2 my Knights get there.
2-0
8-2

R5 Shaun playing Dark Horizons
G1 I lose because I am forced to mull to 5, he Hymns me second turn... G2 and G3 I kill his early Bobs, hold the StP's and boarded in PtE's for his big guys, and eventually overwhelm him with Knights and Goyfs.
2-1
10-3

R6 Gerry Thompson playing WGB Combo Elves
G1 he combos out, I didn't have the removal so I lost. G2 I surprise him with an EoT Enlightened Tutor for the Jitte, which I play and equip/swing the next turn. G3 I have a great hand. I play some guys, waste his Bayous/Savannah, and I Path and Swords his relevant elves. After I won he told me this was the first match he lost in 15 rounds (he won the Standard 5k the day before).
2-1
12-4

R7 Feature match with Dan Signorini playing Team America
G1 I am able to keep him at bay with Wastelands and my Goyfs were bigger than his Stalkers with the help of Noble Hierarchs. I GSZ'd for Hierarchs so I could punch through with Goyfs. G2 I get Team America'd in the face as he Snuff Out'd and Darkblasted all of my threats while Hymning. G3 I keep a greedy hand of Fetch, Hierarch, Nacatl, Path, Swords, Pridemage, Goyf. I go first turn Hierarch, he ponders, I rip the fetch, play a Nacatl, he misses two land drops. he almost comes back but a timely Knight eventually gets there.
2-1
14-5

I draw in to Top 8

Top8 Ari Lax playing UB Storm, my worst possible matchup
Its painful to describe, he Stormed me, nothing special.

So I got 7th place with what I feel is an amazing deck that very effectively abuses GSZ. Test it and play with it!

[BigStanDaddy]

Congrats on your finish Guevera, sadly I got 10th for the second time with the deck. I watched a few of your matches (big guy in blue hoody) I was very impressed and inspired with changes to the list which has caused me to do some changes to mine. If your in Edison i'll formally introduce myself rather then stalk your matches.

[Ziveeman]

Grats on your finishes you two. Between you guys and Mary my confidence has been restored in my choice of Zoo if I decide to go to SCG: LA. The singleton Terravore seems like a pretty good target for GSZ actually...I'm gonna playtest that.

Is the Enlightened Tutor package worth it in the SB? Perhaps having that with Pyrostatic Pillar would improve the Storm matchup (along with GSZ for Teeg), and maybe a singleton O-Ring for the S&T matchup as well.

[Morte]

Creatures//
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore

Enchantments//
3 Sylvan Library

Instants//
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries//
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands//
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SB//
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage


'grats on the finish and very interesting list, I'm going to try it.

3 Sylvan Libraries aren't too many? Any problem of dead draws?

[Esper3k]

Congrats, guys!

Do you consider your decks closer to the regular Zoo lists or the Big/Midrange Zoo lists (in the New & Development forum) due to playing cards like Wasteland, StP, and Noble Hierarch?

[Bloodlotus]

It's definitely closer to a Big Zoo list than a regular Zoo list.

3 Sylvan Library with 4 GSZ really bothers me, as well as 4 Grim Lavamancer and only 4 StP and 3 Bolt (I will never play less than 10 instant removals in any Zoo variants, as it is so important in many MUs where T2 removal totally switch the MU in your favor (who said goblins ?)).

[BigStanDaddy]

Green Sun Zoo is a Big Zoo list it has a fast start and a strong late game/

[beebles]

First of all congrats.

Second when you played against Ari Lax on game 2 how come you zenithed for Knight of the Reliquary instead of Gaddock Teeg??! Not saying it would have made a difference since he had the chain in hand but if he didn't you would have rolled him.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21228_Quarterfinals_Ari_Lax_vs_Kemper_Pogue.html

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Congrats man! I always knew you'd make me proud back when you first started posting in this thread. It's like seeing my boy grow up:cry:

[Nelis]

'Classic' zoo lists can still compete too, same top 8! http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/10497

Maindeck

Creature [25]
2 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg

Instant [10]
2 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

Sorcery [4]
4 Chain Lightning

Land [21]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
2 Plateau

Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg

No Sylvan Library!

[Esper3k]

Yeah it was pretty cool to see a regular Zoo list T8 as well.

Sadly, both Zoo lists had to run into terrible matchups for them in their quarterfinals rounds :(

[jandax]

That's usually the case

[Esper3k]

In this particular t8 there were quite a few bad matchups.

Normally with more Merfolk or goblins around we'd be ok.

[Guevera59]

Thanks everyone!

Regarding 3x Sylvan Libraries, I've never had a problem with dead draw because if you have one in play you're either winning or you can keep extra Sylvans in the top 3 until you shuffle it away with Fetches, Knights, and Zeniths.

I think any list that plays less than four Grims is wrong. You said you need turn 2 removal but Grim Lavamancer does that. Lavamancer is not dead in any match-ups, he is a must answer threat that can deal 4+ damage to any opponent. He is especially good against Countertop because they have to waste a Firespout or a StP on him.

I never had a problem in the tournament with not having enough removal against the tribal decks.

Regarding my quarterfinal match against Ari Lax: I had two GSZ's in my hand, I didn't have enough pressure on the board, so i felt that even if I got a Teeg, he would have all the time in the world to answer it. If he didn't have the Duress on my second GSZ, then I probably would have won that game.

I was hoping to be paired against Goblins, Mangara, or the other Zoo list as all of those are pretty good matchups. I wanted to avoid Storm, Enchantress, S&T, and even Team America because I didn't want to try my luck again against Signorini.

I like the idea of a SB O-Ring if I can't get my hands on a Karakas. Not sure if I like Pyrostatic Pillar, worth testing though.

And Stan, congrats on the Top 16 finish!

[lordofthepit]

I was reading the thread in Format & Article Discussion when I came across the dialogue about Orim's Chant. Obviously, it's main purpose is against Storm combo, where a Chant mid-combo can end the game. I never gave it a chance, because I preferred Mindbreak Trap for that purpose (and don't even run that because it's so narrow). But the fact that you can respond to a Duress (or an opposing Chant) with your own Chant gives it an advantage over MBT. Plus the fact that it shuts down Ill-Gotten Gains while allowing you to hate the next turn.

I think Chant > Silence in Zoo because the kicker can sometimes be relevant (racing Empty the Warrens if you ripped it late), and they'll never misdirect it back at us, so I'm starting to give it serious consideration in my sideboard.

However, I hate running a card that I'd only bring in against one or two archetypes, so I'm trying to think of other matchups where I'd want to use Chant. Here's a "brainstorm"--please add if you can think of anything:

- Obviously, you can use Chant to force a key card through countermagic, but I think that's very weak and would never consider boarding it in for that reason. It might occasionally be useful (say, to make sure your Sword/Path hits a Sphinx of the Steel Wind).
- It's nice against Combo Elves in response to a Glimpse of Nature, and also prevents their alpha strike.
- It can help you race Progenitus or Emrakul more easily, even dropped off a Sneak Attack (provided you pay for kicker).
- Absolutely owns Hypergenesis if resolved. Violent Eruption? Sure, Chant you.
- Probably solid against Dredge. Prevent them from using their key Cabal Therapy or Dread Return if they dredge it in their draw-step. "Fog" their alpha strike with Flame-Kin Zealot. Not as nice as gravehate in this matchup, but gravehate is pretty narrow.

Can anyone else with experience chime in on this?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

You chant in response to:

Doomsday.
Hellbent Infernal Tutor.
Burning Wish.
(Other storm combo business spells.)
Rituals that make x mana into into Charbelcher/Sneak Attack/Empty the Warrens.
Breakthrough.
Sensei's Divining Top triggers.
Glimpse of Nature.

The list really goes on forever. I use chant because it has many applications, but if you're meta isn't plagued by combo or legendary creatures I'd probably stick with Karakas and avoid it altogether.

[lordofthepit]

You chant in response to:

Doomsday.
Hellbent Infernal Tutor.
Burning Wish.
(Other storm combo business spells.)
Rituals that make x mana into into Charbelcher/Sneak Attack/Empty the Warrens.
Breakthrough.
Sensei's Divining Top triggers.
Glimpse of Nature.

The list really goes on forever. I use chant because it has many applications, but if you're meta isn't plagued by combo or legendary creatures I'd probably stick with Karakas and avoid it altogether.

Hey, that was a good list, but my question was more "against what matchups would I bring in Chant, and how good is it compared to other alternatives in terms of versatility across matchups and raw hate power within those matchups", rather than "when do I Chant"?

Can you elaborate on Sensei's Divining Top triggers?

[Esper3k]

I've been starting to play Zoo recently myself and was wondering how people deal with Perish from the board?

Other than combo, that's been the only card I've been having a lot of problems dealing with.

Sometimes they bring in 4-6 Perish effects and it just wrecks me. Merfolk aren't so much of a problem because your removal at 1 for 1 is still good, but Goblins are usually generating tokens or getting card advantage (Matrons, Ringleaders) and your spot removal just isn't as good there.

[jandax]

You just don't over extend. If you knwo they're on that plan, don't play a KotR and Goyf side by side. Run the one to death then play the other one. Your dudes are bigger than theirs. Sure they can chump all day long, but if they swing for a counter attack, it could be lethal for them. Also, playing off color threats like Lavamancer and Steppe Lynx mitigates it some.

[lordofthepit]

I've been starting to play Zoo recently myself and was wondering how people deal with Perish from the board?

Other than combo, that's been the only card I've been having a lot of problems dealing with.

Sometimes they bring in 4-6 Perish effects and it just wrecks me. Merfolk aren't so much of a problem because your removal at 1 for 1 is still good, but Goblins are usually generating tokens or getting card advantage (Matrons, Ringleaders) and your spot removal just isn't as good there.

If you're playing classic Zoo, just drop a bunch of Loam Lions, Kird Apes, Figures of Destiny, Grim Lavamancer, and Stoneforge Mystic, which outclass their creatures and which they can't sweep. If you get an active Lavamancer or Jitte, they simply cannot beat that unless you were way behind to begin with. That means you can still "overextend" as long as you also don't run too many Nacatls/Goyfs/Pridemages/Knights out there. You should play more burn than Big Zoo (although some of them like Price of Progress or Fireblast are somewhat dead), so you can also manage their creatures. In this case, I think your main concern is more the mana denial rather than Perish (since you run like 20 mana sources and they have 8 ways to deny your mana).

With Big Zoo, it's still a favorable matchup, but now most of your creatures are green, and you generally (but not always) run fewer removal. Mana screw is less likely to work against you, but you'll probably have to start running green creatures out there. Just don't overextend--you can usually maintain enough creature with a Nacatl and a Goyf alone to force them to block two guys a turn. They also can't beat Elspeth unless you are already getting swarmed. Since you have less removal, you'll have to point them at the guys that can really hurt you (early Lackey, Warchief, Piledriver, Siege-Gang). Alternatively, your instant speed removal really messes up their math with Gempalm, plus you can force blowouts in combat (i.e., get rid of their alpha-striking Piledrivers, then block their attackers; or kill a few gang-blockers to keep your Goyf alive).

If you're running the Punishing Fires combo and get it active, there's pretty much no way they can win. Even if you can't stick a Grove of the Burnwillow, just using it once (running it into Wasteland) or recurring a Punishing Fire once with Swords to Plowshares makes it that much harder for them.

[beebles]

Dauntless Escort worth it in the sb? Seems like a hell of a silver bullet for zenith lists.

[Jiaozy]

Thanks everyone!

Regarding 3x Sylvan Libraries, I've never had a problem with dead draw because if you have one in play you're either winning or you can keep extra Sylvans in the top 3 until you shuffle it away with Fetches, Knights, and Zeniths.Not to mention that double Library + Fetch/active Reliquary means that you can basically see 5 cards and choose from them before drawing.

You draw, then draw 2 from the first trigger, choose the best one and put 2 cards back on top, fetch and shuffle, draw other 2 cards and put back two of the 3 cards you drew this turn.

Paying life for one fo the two abilities just increases the amount of cards you get to draw/see.

[trivial_matters]

Not to mention that double Library + Fetch/active Reliquary means that you can basically see 5 cards and choose from them before drawing.

You draw, then draw 2 from the first trigger, choose the best one and put 2 cards back on top, fetch and shuffle, draw other 2 cards and put back two of the 3 cards you drew this turn.

Paying life for one fo the two abilities just increases the amount of cards you get to draw/see.

I never thought of this. It's very useful actually, so thank you!

[jandax]

I don't think a judge would explain it that way. As far as I know you can stack the triggers, and shuffle with said effects to see another three cards, not two. You look at the top three, rearrange them, and draw for the turn, or you can pay four life to draw the ones you put back. One trigger would have to resolve, otherwise, they'd just overlap. And that's where a shuffle effect would make it extra nice.

[Esper3k]

At the beginning of the draw step, before anything happens and anyone gets priority, you draw a card.

Then the Sylvan Library triggers would go on the stack.



504. Draw Step

504.1. First, the active player draws a card. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.

504.2. Second, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other abilities that have triggered go on the stack.

504.3. Third, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.

[2Rach]

So, you'd look at four a turn with Library? The first you draw, and the next three you look at/draw with Library?

[Esper3k]

So, you'd look at four a turn with Library? The first you draw, and the next three you look at/draw with Library?

If you have 2 Libraries, per the example:

Beginning of draw step, you would:

1) Draw a card
2) Both Library triggers go on the stack
3) You get priority.

Ok, so assuming your opponent doesn't have any fast effects to play during your draw step:

First Library trigger resolves. You can then choose to draw 2 cards (SL is a may effect). If you do, you have to put 2 out of the cards drawn this turn (so 3 right now because of the one you naturally draw at the beginning of your draw step) back on top of your library (assuming you aren't paying life).

You get priority back.

So say you want to see more cards, so you keep your best card of the three. Now, if you have a shuffle effect, say a KoTR or fetch land, you use it to shuffle up your library.

Now, when the second Library trigger resolves, you can see 2 new "fresh" cards.

[Dragon_Whelp]

So, I thought it might be time to register here. And since I'm here, I thought that I might as well try putting my own Zoo list up for criticism:


Lands (21):

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
2x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy

Creatures (27):

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mirran Crusader

Others (12):

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sylvan Library
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:

1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Barbarian Ring
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring

I just ordered a playset of Green Sun's Zenith, but I'm not really sure about what to cut for it. Mirran Crusader is in there for 3 reasons:

1. Pro-Goyf and black removal.
2. Doesn't die to Perish.
3. If equipped with Jitte, can swing for 20 damage after hitting anything once.

So those two shouldn't go. Also, I am absolutely terrified of combo, and I'm not sure how to combat it. The Leylines are useful, but vulnerable. So any ideas on the sideboard?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I'd probably start cutting Elspeth. I really never liked her that much. The Umezawa's Jittes could as well go to the sideboard, but maindeck they're still fine I guess. The next thing is Grim Lavamancer. I feel he's just getting worse and worse, even against tribal he's not as strong as he used to be. You should also maindeck one or two Gaddock Teeg if you're looking to beat combo. Being able to drop him second turn preboard helps a lot.

[Dragon_Whelp]

Actually, it seems I made a mistake. The forum differentiates between normal Zoo (This thread) and Big Zoo (My deck). Elspeth is not something I'd cut, since she is pretty much a card that has to either be answered, or she lets me win.

Anyways, don't respond to my list any more. This was my bad. Sorry.

[Admiral_Arzar]

So those two shouldn't go. Also, I am absolutely terrified of combo, and I'm not sure how to combat it. The Leylines are useful, but vulnerable. So any ideas on the sideboard?

I'm going to reply anyways. Cut crap like Oblivion Ring and Barbarian Ring for Ethersworn Canonist. Then, mulligan into it and hope your combo opponent doesn't have bounce or Burning Wish -> Answer. You also might want to move the Karakas to the main to open up another sideboard slot. Honestly though, by playing the "Big" version of Zoo, you're significantly worsening your storm combo matchup (it was bad in the first place though) in order to improve several other matchups. Which is fine right now, because unless you live in the Netherlands, storm combo isn't a particularly big part of the metagame.

[Dragon_Whelp]

I'm going to reply anyways. Cut crap like Oblivion Ring and Barbarian Ring for Ethersworn Canonist. Then, mulligan into it and hope your combo opponent doesn't have bounce or Burning Wish -> Answer. You also might want to move the Karakas to the main to open up another sideboard slot. Honestly though, by playing the "Big" version of Zoo, you're significantly worsening your storm combo matchup (it was bad in the first place though) in order to improve several other matchups. Which is fine right now, because unless you live in the Netherlands, storm combo isn't a particularly big part of the metagame.

Oblivion Ring was mainly because of Show and Tell with Emrakul getting more popular here in Denmark. I will agree that it's pretty bad against... Well, pretty much anything else, because Grip takes care of those other things, and better. The Ring was a crazy idea that I had - something along the lines of burn that was fetchable with the Knight being a good thing. But I see your point. I recently acquired a playset of Canonists, so there shouldn't be a problem with those.

The Karakas isn't in main because that'd mean I had to cut a fetchland, which are probably the weakest lands in the deck since I have so many and since they are so vulnerable (Stifle etc.). Or am I wrong here?

[troopatroop]

I just ordered a playset of Green Sun's Zenith, but I'm not really sure about what to cut for it.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of combo, and I'm not sure how to combat it. The Leylines are useful, but vulnerable. So any ideas on the sideboard?

Enlightened Tutor and Green Sun's Zenith. Play 2-3 Enlightened Tutors SB, and an Ethersworn Cannonist and Teeg. That way you have multiple ways of tutoring or drawing hate. I question the Barbarian Ring in the sideboard.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oblivion Ring was mainly because of Show and Tell with Emrakul getting more popular here in Denmark. I will agree that it's pretty bad against... Well, pretty much anything else, because Grip takes care of those other things, and better. The Ring was a crazy idea that I had - something along the lines of burn that was fetchable with the Knight being a good thing. But I see your point. I recently acquired a playset of Canonists, so there shouldn't be a problem with those.

The Karakas isn't in main because that'd mean I had to cut a fetchland, which are probably the weakest lands in the deck since I have so many and since they are so vulnerable (Stifle etc.). Or am I wrong here?

Karakas is your answer to SnT Emrakul. Just put Knight of the Reliquary in off their SnT and then fetch it before they get to attack. GG. Thus, no need for Oblivion Ring. A random Karakas can often give you game one against that deck if they don't see it coming.

Edit: Don't play Enlightened Tutor. This deck does not need the card disadvantage. However, GSZ for maindeck Teeg is perfectly good.

[Dragon_Whelp]

Enlightened Tutor and Green Sun's Zenith. Play 2-3 Enlightened Tutors SB, and an Ethersworn Cannonist and Teeg. That way you have multiple ways of tutoring or drawing hate. I question the Barbarian Ring in the sideboard.

The Barbarian Ring is highly questionable, indeed.


Karakas is your answer to SnT Emrakul. Just put Knight of the Reliquary in off their SnT and then fetch it before they get to attack. GG. Thus, no need for Oblivion Ring. A random Karakas can often give you game one against that deck if they don't see it coming.

Edit: Don't play Enlightened Tutor. This deck does not need the card disadvantage. However, GSZ for maindeck Teeg is perfectly good.

Yeah, i have tried topdecking Karakas against that deck, which won me the game. And right before he could attack to boot. So I do know of how useful it is. Also takes Iona. But how about the Akroma-Sphinx whose name eludes me at the moment? Is that just StP and PtE?

And I'm still wondering on what to cut for the GSZ. I know that Mirran Crusader seems obvious, but it wins games out of the blue often enough to warrant two spots. With Jitte, it's the aforementioned 20 damage in one swing after blocking/attacking once.

[troopatroop]

Don't play Enlightened Tutor. This deck does not need the card disadvantage. However, GSZ for maindeck Teeg is perfectly good.

Enlightened Tutor is good you have the right targets. It's a great way to save SB Space, card selection is worth it.

[Nelis]

I ran Enlightened Tutor a while in classic Zoo and I wasn't fully convinced but its definitely a card that shouldnt be dismissed right away. I'd put in 2 myself but would only use it for combo hate. In other words I wouldnt fully rely on Enlightened tutor as an answer to everything.

[lordofthepit]

I ran Enlightened Tutor a while in classic Zoo and I wasn't fully convinced but its definitely a card that shouldnt be dismissed right away. I'd put in 2 myself but would only use it for combo hate. In other words I wouldnt fully rely on Enlightened tutor as an answer to everything.

Agreed.

An Enlightened Tutor package that includes grave hate (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt, and/or Relic of Progenitus), storm hate (Ethersworn Canonist, Thorn of Amethyst, Pyrostatic Pillar), and other miscellaneous hate (Null Rod, Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon) can be very effective in swinging unfavorable matchups. Moreover, Enlightened Tutor protects against Turn 1 discard, which is nice because of lot of the relevant hate cards you're tutoring up costs 2.

However, that's a pretty weak strategy against combo decks that do run counterspells, because you're down two cards when they counter your hate. But against the likes of Storm, Dredge, and Lands, I was pretty happy when I tried out that package.

[lordofthepit]

Yeah, i have tried topdecking Karakas against that deck, which won me the game.

You don't need to topdeck it if you're running Knights, obviously. =)

I hate messing up the manabase, but I found that a maindeck Karakas is very much worth it. If you have a Knight in hand, absolutely do not try to cast it (it might get countered), unless for some reason you are trying to bait them (i.e. you have a second Knight). Against Show and Tell -> Emrakul, it's like running five Force of Wills (4 Knights + Karakas), except it can't get countered by their own FoWs, it doesn't require you to pitch a card, and you get to dump your own fatty into play.

I actually find the matchup to be slightly favorable (unless they're running Sneak Attack and manage to get that in quickly enough). Progenitus is stil a problem if they get it out early though.

[Dragon_Whelp]

You don't need to topdeck it if you're running Knights, obviously. =)

Nope, but he had killed my only Knight at that point (Well, the only one I had seen in that game), and it was really surprising that this one card could actually turn the game around - he had played two SnT in the same turn and controlled both Emmy and Iona, so I couldn't play more Knights. My only creatures were Goyf and Nacatl. But alas, it worked!


I hate messing up the manabase, but I found that a maindeck Karakas is very much worth it. If you have a Knight in hand, absolutely do not try to cast it (it might get countered), unless for some reason you are trying to bait them (i.e. you have a second Knight). Against Show and Tell -> Emrakul, it's like running five Force of Wills (4 Knights + Karakas), except it can't get countered by their own FoWs, it doesn't require you to pitch a card, and you get to dump your own fatty into play.

I actually find the matchup to be slightly favorable (unless they're running Sneak Attack and manage to get that in quickly enough). Progenitus is stil a problem if they get it out early though.

Yeah, Progenitus. You're pretty much down to black spells if you want to get him, aren't you? Diabolic Edict, Gatekeeper, Perish...

[lordofthepit]

Yeah, Progenitus. You're pretty much down to black spells if you want to get him, aren't you? Diabolic Edict, Gatekeeper, Perish...

If I'm playing a Natural Order deck, I will try to set a clock and aggressively burn their green sacrifice outlets--especially their mana dudes--before they ramp up to four mana. If you have enough burn, they will be unable to stick a green creature and Natural Order on the same turn unless they have five mana accessable. This is harder if they're running Wall of Roots (or Tarmogoyf, obviously requires a Swords effect).

Hopefully, by the time they get out their Hydra Avatar, they'll be at a low enough life total and staring at enough fatties that they won't be able to attack. I find that much more effective than splashing for black.

Alternatively, if you want to stick to white, there are very narrow answers like Tariff and Retribution of the Meek. I think those are terrible, low-impact cards that don't help against too many archetypes though, so I'd say racing is better.

Another alternative is to play an equipment package. Sword of Light and Shadow will allow you to swing safely through Progenitus the very next turn after it's dropped, while doing 2 extra damage and getting you 3 life. (This means they'll probably need to swing three times with Progenitus, which is quite easy to race, especially since they can't block the first time around.) Sword of Fire and Ice won't give you an extra swing, but you're doing an extra 4 damage through Progenitus and drawing into hopefully more burn. I'm not a fan of the equipment package in most matchups, but it's a much better solution than splashing for Edict effects or running those weird white cards.

I'm going to give Orim's Chant a try in the sideboard. It's there for storm combo, but I want to test whether it's useful against Show and Tell decks. As I mentioned it above, it's great against the SnT decks that run Sneak Attack (the creatures they cheat in are "fogged" and go straight to the graveyard) and Hypergenesis (Chant in response to cascade--nice Ardent Plea you have on the board there). But it can also let you get one more chance to attack into an untapped Progenitus that they didn't see coming.

[trivial_matters]

Sneak Attack with Show and Tell is quite a challenging match-up, but, as stated already, quite winnable. One card not mentioned yet which is good here is Gaddock Teeg, who is fetchable with Green Sun's Zenith if you're playing it. He takes care of Sneak Attack. The second one is Red Elemental Blast/ Pyroblast for Show and Tell, which I would play in the sideboard.

[Esper3k]

Teeg also takes care of Natural Order as well.

[Dragon_Whelp]

And Force of Will.

Though he tends to attract whatever destruction they have at incredible speed.

[jandax]

We all know what Teeg covers, we can only hope we don't try to play a GSZ/Fireblast with one on the field.

Some useful information would be a compelation of relevant GSZ targets. It's going to be relevant when playing the card, so far this is what I could find:


Qasali Pridemage
Harmonic Sliver
Burning-Tree Shaman
Terravore
Kavu Predator
Tarmogoyf (obviously)
Gaddock Teeg
Fauna Shaman
Loaming Shaman
Dryad Arbor
Knight of the Reliquary
Eternal Witness
Wild Nacatl
Vexing Shusher
Noble Hierarch

Anything else?

[Dragon_Whelp]

Noble Hierarch (Maybe?)
Rhox War Monk (It's dead card if drawn, so probably not)
Vexing Shusher
Wooly Thoctar

[Amon Amarth]

Vexing Shusher seems really good to tutor up against CounterTop. Could be a great 1-of in the SB.

[jandax]

Yeah, forgot about Shusher, he's definitely a silver bullet against CT if he sticks.

RWM is dependant on Noble Hierarch to cast, and as stated is an otherwise dead draw, so he's not right for a Naya colored deck. Wooly throctar: a 3G 5/4 or RWG 5/4, wiht vanilla flavor.

[trivial_matters]

RWM is dependant on Noble Hierarch to cast, and as stated is an otherwise dead draw, so he's not right for a Naya colored deck.

Unfortunately, the same is true of Trygon Predator. That card is so awesome though.

[Dragon_Whelp]

Unfortunately, the same is true of Trygon Predator. That card is so awesome though.

It is, but Harmonic Sliver could work as a sort of replacement for it, although it's not nearly as good. But still, it might work anyways.

EDIT: You know, looking over that list, I think that GSZ Zoo might actually be better as a GW deck. Also, Birds of Paradise as Hierarch 5-8 and Xantid Swarm against combo.

[trivial_matters]

I'd like to say that maybe people who play traditional Zoo should take a second look at Wasteland. It's played only very rarely, practically not at all. I think it could be played once or twice and fetched with Knight of the Reliquary when needed. If you prefer to attack with Knight of the Reliquary, that's fine. However, when you run into Academy Ruins for example, it might be worth it not to attack for a turn but instead destroy the land, since it could cause all sorts of problems (recurring Engineered Explosives, etc). The same is true when facing someone playing a control deck who misses a land drop. Destroying one of their few lands in play can make all the difference. This is true especially since those players often rely on cantrips like Brainstorm to dig for additional lands and so keep risky hands.

[Dragon_Whelp]

I agree. I play with two Wasteland, and they are sometimes extremely helpful. For example, I previously had absolutely no way of breaking a stalemate with Thawing Glaciers against 43 Lands.dec, but Wasteland allows for that final attack to be pushed through and can win games by doing such things. Academy Ruins is another good example of a card that can be dangerous to leave by itself. Rishadan Port and Maze of Ith too. And other Wastelands, in a pinch.

EDIT: My friend came up with this list for GW GSZ Zoo:


21
4xSavannah
4xWindswept Heath
2x green fetch
1xForest
1xPlains
1xDryad
1xKarakas
1xGaea's Cradle
2xHorizon Canopy
4xWasteland

13
4xGreen Sun's Zenith
4xSwords to Plowshares
2xElspeth 1.0
1xUmezawa's Jitte
1xSword of Fire and Ice
1xSword of Light and Shadow

26
4xNoble Hiearch
1xBirds of Paradise
3xMother of Runes
2xScryb Ranger
2xStoneforge Mystic
3xPridemage
4xTarmogoyf
4xKnight
2xEternal Witness
1xTerravore

I'd like it to go -1 Terravore and +1 Vexing Shusher or something else, I think. But other than that... Thoughts?

[troopatroop]

Your manabase is... messy. You pack it up to combo, same problem with most Zoo decks tho. That's Big Zoo minus Red, seems strong in theory. How do you not play Wild Nacatl?

[Dragon_Whelp]

I haven't tried it yet. But I dunno if it would need something like Natural Order. I thought it did, he said no. He's probably right, but eh. A CBTop deck can avoid drawing Progenitus with Brainstorm and Top. Then again, there is access to Sylvan Library and fetches in these colours, although the Library should really not show up in multiples. One less colour means more freedom in the manabase. Cradle is legendary, so you don't want to see more than one. Dryad Arbor is just something that can be tutored up quite easily. And Karakas is, well, Karakas. As for Wild Nacatl - it's not really as strong when it's not a 3/3 for 1, so the plan here is to use the little mana guys plus lands. But I'm not sure, really, it was just an idea.

[Fatal]

This deck is called Maverick

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5673&iddeck=41037 he won on 73 ppl. I changed little list to tweak deck, I add one Maze of Ith i place of second Dryad Arbor and also cut one Jitte and add one Plains. Maze of Ith with KotR is too good to don't play it.

[Dragon_Whelp]

I like the deck idea. The name... Eh, not so much. That needs some work.

But three Horizon Canopy? Maze of Ith? Rhox War Monk? Cutting Jitte?

[jandax]

Maverick?

Legacy players have hard on for naming decks after inside jokes.

[Dragon_Whelp]

It needs a better name than that, if anyone should want to play it.

On the other hand... It's not a deck 'till it's done well in one of the really large tourneys. Until then, we can call it Whatever.dec.

No, but seriously. Maverick? Come on...

[Jonathan Alexander]

And it's not like the deck has been existing for more than half a year. Maverick. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18169-[DECK]-WG-Maverick&highlight=maverick)
Anyway, Green Sun's Zenith is awesome, but I also realised that my list runs less and less red. Maindeck I only need Mountains for Lightning Bolt and Wild Nacatl. I have 12 red cards in my sideboard though, but four of them are Price Of Progress which I don't need, but I had free space. I really hope I'll get my Zeniths in time so I can play the deck on Saturday. It's the strongest piece of Aggro I played in a long, long time.
By the way, I don't think we need a toolbox for Green Sun's Zenith to be good; it's basically like cantrips but it always finds the solutions we need. Plus it easily plays around Counterbalance.

[Dragon_Whelp]

Myeh. Still don't like the name. :)

But GSZ can probably push this deck over the edge. I wonder what kind of hate people will begin packing for that card once it's everywhere? Just good ol' counterspells?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Countermagic always works. Even Spell Pierce works. You could also pack Gaddock Teeg yourself or you know, cast Swords To Plowshares on the creatures.

[trivial_matters]

Anyway, Green Sun's Zenith is awesome, but I also realised that my list runs less and less red. Maindeck I only need Mountains for Lightning Bolt and Wild Nacatl. I have 12 red cards in my sideboard though, but four of them are Price Of Progress which I don't need, but I had free space.

Green Sun's Zenith is indeed brilliant in Big Zoo. Red is the least used colour in that deck, but it's still very important.
By the way, I play Grim Lavamancer twice in the main alongside Lightning Bolt and Wild Nacatl. I still think he warrants a place in the deck because he's so good against Goblins and Merfolk. I've been playing Lightning Helix as additional removal as well, but so far it hasn't been so useful because I've mostly played against control.

Would you mind posting your list?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I also had two Grim Lavamancers in my maindeck, but I recently cut them for two Umezawa's Jitte. It's still awesome against control and tribal, but it's better against other matchups (i.e. decks with creatures bigger than X/2). Alongside Path To Exile it's the card I boarded out the most. Umezawa's Jitte was the card I boarded in the most.

Anyway, here's my list:

//Lands
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

//Creatures
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

//Other Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Price Of Progress
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Tormod's Crypt

The manabase is awesome and I never had problems with it. The creaturebase is awesome as well. As is the removal suite and Green Sun's Zenith. Simply put, the deck is amazing. The only thing I'm not sure about are the Price Of Progress. Up until now I always played with essentially eleven sideboard cards (or thirteen with Umezawa's Jitte). I really don't feel like I need anything else.

Oh, and I consider adding a Savannah. As soon as I lose a game because of not having it, I'll do it.

[CorpT]

Seeing as how it's all the rage, has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo yet? Probably a big Zoo deck with Nobles.

[lordofthepit]

Seeing as how it's all the rage, has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo yet? Probably a big Zoo deck with Nobles.

I tried it in both decks. I actually liked it better in small Zoo because it has more bodies to equip it onto, and because big Zoo already runs a lot of threats that can stand by themselves.

It's best when you can tutor up a SoLS or SoFI to punch through a Progenitus, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc. But it's such a tempo loss when you get hit by removal in response to the equip (spend 2 mana to tutor, 2 mana to "vial" in your equipment next turn, 2 mana to equip). It's also nice when you can get it at the right time and protect your Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary from removal. But it was otherwise ineffective for me.

Ostensibly, it's best against Tribal decks, against which we already have a great matchup. And when you do manage to get it online, it's pretty much lights out. But in the meantime, you're losing a lot of tempo just waiting to be blown out by a Gempalm Incinerator or a Submerge, which actually gives them an opportunity to take the game.

It's also nice in the mirror if you can get a Jitte or especially a SoLS active. But once again, you risk losing a lot of tempo to a Path/Sword/Bolt in response to equip. Or simply a Qasali Pridemage.

[jandax]

I tried it in both decks. I actually liked it better in small Zoo because it has more bodies to equip it onto, and because big Zoo already runs a lot of threats that can stand by themselves.

It's best when you can tutor up a SoLS or SoFI to punch through a Progenitus, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc. But it's such a tempo loss when you get hit by removal in response to the equip (spend 2 mana to tutor, 2 mana to "vial" in your equipment next turn, 2 mana to equip). It's also nice when you can get it at the right time and protect your Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary from removal. But it was otherwise ineffective for me.

Ostensibly, it's best against Tribal decks, against which we already have a great matchup. And when you do manage to get it online, it's pretty much lights out. But in the meantime, you're losing a lot of tempo just waiting to be blown out by a Gempalm Incinerator or a Submerge, which actually gives them an opportunity to take the game.

It's also nice in the mirror if you can get a Jitte or especially a SoLS active. But once again, you risk losing a lot of tempo to a Path/Sword/Bolt in response to equip. Or simply a Qasali Pridemage.

If you're after protection from the SFM package, I'd drop it all together for MOther of Runes. And if your metagame is all about maindecked Firespout, Burrenton Forgetender. While the SFM is indeed powerful, it's unlikely a board position when a sword goes to be equiped for big zoo or regular/fast zoo will be one or both of the following:
1-drastically different in creature size and power
2-vunlerable to sweepers in both pre and post sideboarded games

If it's topdecked later on in the game, you still have to untap with it in play. With a pro-creature at your disposal, spot removal is contained, and in certain cases that would otherwise be tough to get out of. They aren't beaters by any means, but their role is to assist in the dominance of the red zone with their abilities, not bodies.

[Mr. Safety]

I feel that Stoneforge Mystic shines best in anything using Aether Vial. You get to 'cheat' the tutor into play around counterspells and mana requirements, and then all you have to do is have 1W to get your equipment 'vial-ed' into play around counterspells or mana requirements. It's a very parallel effect, and I think it works best with hate bears, so something like Junk w/Bob & bears it can work. In UW-Tempo it works, making your Meddling Mages/Ethersworn Canonists into more effective threats. I really think it shines in Deadguy Ale though...you get bob/tops, some hatebears, and a seriously good mana denial plan (Wasteland/Vindicate, sometimes Sinkhole) where you aren't splashing green for Goyf, so you need equipment to make your bears get there.

In zoo? Not in legacy. Standard, extended maybe, but not legacy. Turn your dudes sideways and burn the snot out of your opponent, that's how zoo rolls. Stoneforge Mystic is just too slow. I would suggest that for 4 mana, Elspeth is so much better than a Mystic package. One card, immediate use, and serious consequences with even just one creature on the board.

[e=mc^2]

Yesterday I played GSZ Zoo in the weekly Syracuse legacy event. There were about 10 people. I played a pretty standard list.

LAND (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

DUDES (23)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore

SPELLS (16)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth Knight Errant

SIDEBOARD
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Path to Exile
2 Jitte
2 Gadock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Mindbreak Trap

I fought against b/w, g/u, g/w aggro, and 12 post and won all of my matches. Against aggro decks being able to consistently power out a larger army than them was awesome. Also GSZ for a Terravore can break through a ground stall like a champ. The one downside of this version is that playing against Perish with discard gets reall akward in games 2 and 3. Against 12 post my opponent and I each had one good game, then he punted game 3. wasteland, and Knight were really good in this match up. My one problem is sideboarding. Against aggro I want to bring in 2 Path and 2 Jitte, but I have no idea what to board out. Elspeth is good against creature standoffs, and Library lets me draw less lands when it counts. I would love to hear some opinions on sidebording from people who have experiencing with the deck.

[trivial_matters]

With the deck you're running, I'd probably side out some Qasali Pridemages against aggressive decks, probably about two. Against Goblins for example you can also side out a Knight of the Reliquary.

[PaRa]

I played following list at our local tournament with approx 38 people showing up to battle for ital Legends boosters, Duals etc.

Main

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Side

2 Null Rod
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle


I finishes 3rd with a 5:1(10:4) record and MVP all day was Green Sun's Zenith into Gaddock Teeg.

Matchups:

PainterStone with SnT Emrakul backup plan: 0:2 A mistake in game one and the missing Karakas in Game 2 where neck breaking
MUC: 2:0 He had no real business...
TES: 2:0 Teeg was MVP in both games
Spiral Tide: 2:1 Teeg was MVP... In the first game he was able to bounce him and go off for the win.
Stax: 2:1 Teeg was MVP in game two and three..
No Bant: 2:0 Game one zoo speed wins it even with this rather slow list and game two i was able to keep him off getting up to 4 mana by killing his Arbor and Hierarch.

The Punishing Fire/Grove plan was underwhelming all day long but i didn't face any tribal or zoo deck to really use it well...

[Misplayer]

Seeing how most of the recent discussion focuses around Big/Zenith Zoo, I’ll post up a quick report. I’ve played 2 local events and have gone a combined 9-2, splitting top 4 both times.

Yesterday I went 3-1 beating UG NO-Show, Affinity and 12Post Emrakul, losing to UGR Next Level Thresh.

Round 1: Allan w/UG NO-Show
G1: 14/14 Terravore with active Knight + StP races Progenitus
G2: Burn down his Natural Order food until I get Teeg online. He Shows in a Woodfall Primus but my army get’s there.

1-0 Matches
2-0 Games

Round 2: Chris w/Affinity
G1: Terravore tramples through Etched Champion
G2: I have to race his double Champion and win a tight one on the back of green beaters and Lavamancer.

2-0
4-0

Round 3: John w/Next Level Thresh
G1: I sandbag my double Wasteland as he has fetch + double Waste, he fetches a Trop to Stifle my fetch, I Waste. He fetches another Trop to play Goyf, I StP and Waste. Double Exalted Nacatl takes him to 6 before he finds a Volcanic, plays Lavamancer and then Fire on my two Hierarchs. I rip a Mountain, swing 3 and Bolt 3.
G2: I keep triple fetch + hierarch, he keeps double Stifle + Bolt.
G3: We both mull to 6, I keep a shaky T1 Taiga -> GSZ -> Arbor. T2 Grim. T3 rip Hierarch. He rips a fetch -> Volcanic -> Firespout -> blowout before I can drop my Knight.

2-1
5-2

Round 4: Jeremiah with his UG 12Post Turbo-Eldrazi deck
G1: Triple Waste
G2: Grip on Needle naming Waste, Double Waste + Knight -> 3rd Waste

3-1
7-2

Thoughts:
Terravore = the nuts as a singleton/GSZ target
4x Wasteland is the right call in the current metagame
Never saw Elspeth (2x) and she got boarded out a lot
I ran a single Eternal Witness because I’ve often found myself wanting to Zenith for something that could affect the board more or win the game on the spot. Witness into Bolt/Swords can be extremely potent.


Aside – here’s a sideboard I would consider bringing to a bigger event. Combo is a nightmare matchup but I feel like Teeg + Null Rod + REB gives you a punchers chance, while all 3 being extremely versatile options. Finks is great against tribal, OG Zoo and decks packing Perish. I tried to include broad answers that are good in multiple matchups.

I’m also curious about sideboarding strategy against the current major archetypes: Junk, Next Level Thresh, Team America, Merfolk, Goblins, NO Bant/Show, X & Taxes, UR Welder/Painter, Elf Combo, Zoo/Mirror (I think stuff like Combo/Dredge is pretty straightforward).

Specifically, what comes out in those matchups?


1 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt

[e=mc^2]

My list (see above) has 21 lands and, so I always remove one of my wastelands in matches where they are underwhelming. In many of those matches however, i feel like Pridemage can be a real asset, so I never side him out. I would live to hear other people's ideas on these matched as I always want to bring in ore cards than I want to take out.

[jandax]

In each of those match ups, it's important to focus on what they're bringing in against you, as the deck appears to have game against a mixed room. Trump things they're trying to do, and craft a sideboard that'd afford you the outs to a blow out, like firespout or fallout for example. I've been toying with Burning-tree Shaman and Leyline of Vitality (i know)

[justjake54]

I feel like all leyline of vitality saves is Nacatl, everything else would already have survived with out it, or it doesn't make them big enough to save them. Absolute law might not be too bad against next level thresh, although you can't burn their goyfs if its relevent, but it makes all their firespouts and burn effects dead cards.

[jandax]

I'd honestly be more worried about maindecked Firespout than Thresh, in my own meta game that is. Noble Hierarchs still bite the dust, but it makes their sweepers a three mana one for one, sometimes they might get an extra creature, or a leyline wasn't in the opening hand, but its effects are often useful.

[Misplayer]

I feel like Kitchen Finks are a MUCH better answer to Firespout than something narrow like Leyline of Vitality. Finks comes in against fast aggro, Perish and Firespout.

The real challenge that I’ve been having is the manabase (especially against Stifle/Waste strategies). Between the always wanting G, often needing W and R, and Nacatl land requirements, Big Zoo can present some really tough decisions if you put your opponent on Wasteland. Do you fetch Taiga -> Grim Lavamancer and risk getting Wasted off your red source? Or do you potentially shut yourself off green? I've been running into issues like this occasionally.

Here’s my current setup:

9 Fetch:
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

6 Duals:
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah

2 Basics:
1 Forest
1 Plains

5 Utility:
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

22 Lands Total

I don’t want to add a land because of Hierarch, because the curve is relatively low, and because you want to draw gas after you hit 3-4 mana sources.

I’ve been unimpressed with Dryad Arbor and basic Mountain, although basic Mountain can be essential in the Merfolk/Goblins matchup where they will actively try to keep you off red.

On sideboarding:
In what matchups does Sylvan Library come out? It’s never bad, but it’s not as game breaking in all matchups. Same question RE: Elspeth?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I run 4 Arid Mesa and 4 Wooded Foothills as fetches since the most important basic against most Wasteland-strategies is Mountain. You should really add a Mountain. Also, if I can open with Noble Hierarch, I go for Taiga most of the time. Even if they have Wasteland, you still have two mana on turn two (unless they countered the Hierarch of course) to cast some business. It's also really hard to play tempo on this deck without Stifle, it's just way too fast and has too many tempo-tricks on its own.

I agree on Dryad Arbor. It didn't matter in a single situation for me so far, so I cut it. Anyway, I don't think Elspeth is worth playing. She has been too clunky for me so far and never had a significant impact on the game unless I was winning anyway. I've had some really bad luck with drawing her in the wrong situations, though. But in my extensive testing with her, she really didn't work out. If I was to run any four-drop, it would be Thrun. That guy is amazing, and our aggro matchups are good enough anyway, we don't need Elspeth to win here anyway.

I also never side out Sylvan Library. Drawing gas is always important. I have 2 Gaddock Teeg maindeck, and the things I usually board out are these and my Pathes.

By the way, why don't run run a Horizon Canopy or two? It's really strong.

[Misplayer]

Thanks for the input.

The mountain is something I struggle with because with 7 non-green sources out of 22 lands, you can't cast 2/3 of your spells with 1/3 of your lands. I feel like the 9th fetch is more versatile considering red is by far the tertiary color in the deck. Grim Lavamancer is the card that really complicates things, as it requires continuous access to red to be effective.

I'd go Taiga -> Hierarch on the play all day, on the draw it's a lot riskier. If they can keep you off Knight mana or make Daze a hard counter for an extra turn (via Wasteland), Vial will out tempo Hierarch almost every time.

Good advice on Elspeth. Definitely a pet card of mine from my Landstill days. I think I'll move Jitte main instead and possibly bring Thrun out of the side.

I've found Canopy to be little more than a pain land. I suppose the only situation I'd miss it is if I were digging for something with Knight in play. But I've rarely used Knight to do anything but smash and tutor Wasteland/Karakas. With 9 fetches + 4 Wasteland, growing Knight is never an issue for me. If anything, I'd add it as the 23rd land to add a mana source without diluting my midgame draws too much.

How's Teeg main with GSZ been? Also, has Path screwed up your Wasteland strategy? It seems contradictory to me, which is why I run Swords to Plowshares.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I haven't had manabase issues so far. For reference, this is my current manabase:

//Lands
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Plus I'm playing a full set of Noble Hierarchs. This works out pretty well, and I'm often testing against decks with Wasteland or Dragon Stompy, which also punishes greedy manabases. I agree on Taiga -> Noble Hierarch being worse on the draw. Against decks with Stifle being on the draw sucks in general. The tempo matchups are all really close to even, and it depends a lot on who's going first. But I'm really not afrainf of Merfolk at all. I don't remember losing even a single game against Merfolk in the past few months.

Maindeck Umezawa's Jitte is something I'm trying out right now as well, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep it. It helps in almost every single matchup, as it can turn even stuff like Noble Hierarch into a threat, lets you play with less creatures on the board, which means you're stronger against sweepers (especially Perish is pretty strong, I'm not afraid of Firespout anymore at all either). And it wins Goyf wars for example. I like it much more than Grim Lavamancer, which I have cut entirely now.

What I like about Horizon Canopy is that it's smoothing out my draws. This really helps against control variants and basically everything that has a way to deal with your creatures. I consider cutting one again for a Savannah, though.

Maindeck Gaddock Teeg with 4 Green Sun's Zenith is amazing. It helps against storm combo, Force Of Will, planeswalkers and other random nasty things like recurring Engineered Explosives or even Breakthrough from Dredge. Being able to go turn two Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg after going Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor turn one was the only reason I included Dryad Arbor in my list by the way. But this is just so unlikely to happen and so not worth it.

About Path To Exile. The reason I'm running it over Swords To Plowshares is the time you want to use it. Early game your creatures are bigger than anyone elses, plus we have Lightning Bolt to push through damage. The only reason why we would need even more removal is when they have big dudes, basically Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Terravore or Knight Of The Reliquary. When your opponents can cast those creatures, they have enough mana anyway. Thus, giving them a land is less of a tempo-loss than giving them 5+ life, which means we most likely need one more turn to win. I'm considering two Swords To Plowshares sideboard, though. I want something to deal with decks that have a lot of creatures. The other contender is Flame Slash. I'm really not sure which one to take.

[trivial_matters]

I prefer Swords to Plowshares to Path to Exile. If you're looking for something that takes care of (small) creatures, you could try Arc Trail. Seems good against Goblins and Merfolk, for example. I haven't tried it myself, but others have. There was even a list floating around in this thread that had them.

[Neffy]

I play 2 plowshares and 4 path since path is great against TA and other decks with no basics, and plowshares are good vs. opponents nobles, and other creatures in decks that you wont allow getting more lands.

What are peoples opinions on SB price of progress? I really like them, since they can screw up so many decks and get them within burn range/creature lethality quickly.

[Crazy Eddie]

About Path To Exile. The reason I'm running it over Swords To Plowshares is the time you want to use it. Early game your creatures are bigger than anyone elses, plus we have Lightning Bolt to push through damage. The only reason why we would need even more removal is when they have big dudes, basically Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Terravore or Knight Of The Reliquary. When your opponents can cast those creatures, they have enough mana anyway. Thus, giving them a land is less of a tempo-loss than giving them 5+ life, which means we most likely need one more turn to win.

Tnaks for this, it's one of the best arguments for using Path to Exile in Zoo I've seen lately. I'm just curious against what kind of decks you want to bring in additional removal like Swods or Flame Slash?

Also: since people are talking about getting rid of small creatures: what's wrong with using Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lightning Helix? Playing Bolt on a T1 Noble Hierarch seems like a very good plan to me, you can keep the Paths for the really big guys and you don't have to play suboptimal cards like Arc Trail.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Tnaks for this, it's one of the best arguments for using Path to Exile in Zoo I've seen lately. I'm just curious against what kind of decks you want to bring in additional removal like Swods or Flame Slash?

Also: since people are talking about getting rid of small creatures: what's wrong with using Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lightning Helix? Playing Bolt on a T1 Noble Hierarch seems like a very good plan to me, you can keep the Paths for the really big guys and you don't have to play suboptimal cards like Arc Trail.

I'm running four Lightning Bolts. And before Green Sun's Zenith, I also had four Chain Lightnings. I'd love to play them again, but I really don't see what I should cut since everything else is just better. Lightning Helix is okay, but I didn't like it the last tournament I played it in. I never needed it and rather would've had Chain Lightnings, which I included again after the tournament.

And also, I want to have additional removal against creature-heavy decks like other Zoo or stuff like Bant. Being able to deal with Rhox War Monk and early Tarmogoyf is a huge upside of Flame Slash. On the other hand, Swords To Plowshares does this as well, plus dealing with hasty Goblins and the like. Removing your opponents turn one Noble Hierarch is a good plan as well, especially if you have a Wasteland to follow up with. Right now, I prefer Swords To Plowshares but Flame Slash is really close.

[trivial_matters]

I don't think additional removal is necessary against a deck like Bant. You play both Tarmogoyf (which they do as well) and Knight of the Reliquary (which they don't), who will probably outclass all other creatures in size. They can both be fetched by Green Sun's Zenith. Lightning Bolt takes care of Noble Hierarch and your own Noble Hierarchs and perhaps Qasali Pridemages give you the edge in combat. Rhox War Monk is annoying, but far less so than with traditional Zoo.

[Nelis]

Tnaks for this, it's one of the best arguments for using Path to Exile in Zoo I've seen lately. I'm just curious against what kind of decks you want to bring in additional removal like Swods or Flame Slash?

Against Merfolk. They're light on mana and would love to have more islands. Especially when they are stuck on one island you don't want to give them a second one. The same is true vs Goblins.

Sometimes 4 Paths aren't enough (against decks that run too many big creatures) and you want to increase your non burn removal.

[Misplayer]

On Green Sun's Zenith:

Which is more often the correct play?

Play A: I open with Turn 1 Nacatl. I have no 2-drop for turn 2, but GSZ another Nacatl for steady pressure.
Play B: Same first two turns, but I hold bag the GSZ so I can get something scary like Knight or Terravore later on.

Obviously matchups, lands, hand, and opponent's board have a lot to do with this decision. But generally speaking, which has more often been correct in your experience?

On Big Zoo playstyle:

Based on the discussion around Path/removal, it's clear to me that there are some different approaches when playing Big Zoo (i.e. Hierarch, GSZ, Wasteland + Zoo Cards). One seems to be more prevalent: play the list like you would small Zoo, get out to a fast start, Path their midgame blockers and burn them down before they can stabilize, but have a midgame backup plan through GSZ.

The big difference is that you only have one aggressive 1-drop creature (and it's probably the best in the format): Wild Nacatl. Hierarch is not an aggro card, neither is Lavamancer really. The small Zoo lists were good because they had assorted 1-drops, 8 1-mana burn spells that are often cast early, and could apply consistent early pressure. The tradeoff is that you increase the likelihood that you run out of gas by the mid-game, but by then your opponent is hopefully dead.

Anyway, my contention is that "Hierarch, go" is not an aggro start, and a huge reason why I play Swords over Path. True aggro decks like Merfolk (which I've been testing against a bit), will play Vial turn 1, Silvergill and Mutavault turn 2 and possibly Vial in Cursecatcher. You have to go into damage control (literally) mode at this point. Giving your opponent life is much more inconsequential than giving them another land so they can play the Coralhelm AND LoA on their next turn. You're essentially accerating a deck that's faster than you are. Same with Goblins. In these matchups, you need to stabilize, then go on the attack. Extra removal would be helpful, but I think these matchups are winnable with StP/Bolt/Jitte and big blockers. Those slots are better left devoted to tougher matchups.

Against decks like NLT and Team America, you're faster than they are and it's a resource war. This is the matchup where you want to open with Hierarch so you can sidestep their Stifle/Waste plan. Even here, I don't mind having Swords over Path, although Path would probably be better. If you can fight through their mana denial and counterspells, you should be able to simply land a creature that outclasses any of theirs and the extra removal isn't necessary.


I don't think additional removal is necessary against a deck like Bant. You play both Tarmogoyf (which they do as well) and Knight of the Reliquary (which they don't), who will probably outclass all other creatures in size. They can both be fetched by Green Sun's Zenith. Lightning Bolt takes care of Noble Hierarch and your own Noble Hierarchs and perhaps Qasali Pridemages give you the edge in combat. Rhox War Monk is annoying, but far less so than with traditional Zoo.

I agree with your point, but Bant doesn't play Knight? Why not?

[Admiral_Arzar]

I actually don't think I've seen a Bant list that doesn't play Knight.

[Jonathan Alexander]

You should play Zenith when you can get the most advantage out of it. Most of the time this means you want to play it when you can get a Qasali Pridemage or an efficient beater out of it; personally I don't like using Zenith to find one-drops.

About the playstyle of Zoo in general. I realised that I was playing it as aggro-control more and more. You have loads of removal anyway and you even have answer to other important cardtypes through Qasali Pridemage. We have more cards that interact with our opponents than Merfolk has. Now, as I see it, the most important aspect of control these days is tempo. And this deck sure can play tempo, basically more than any other deck in the format. Recently I played a game against Dragon Stompy, which has tempo elements itself. I opened with Taiga, Noble Hierarch, go. He went Ancient Tomb, Phyrexian Revoker on Noble Hierarch. This was a nice tempo move from him. Anyway, I went Lighting Bolt on Phyrexian Revoker, Wasteland on Ancient Tomb and Wild Nacatl off of Noble Hierarch. The game was over three or four turns later. I like this playstyle a lot and this is probably one of the deck I played so far I enjoyed the most, both because of power and because of playstyle.

[BigStanDaddy]

I usually hold on to the zenith til turn 3 and bluff removal if I have no turn 2 which is very rare. Now if turn 1 was a noble then turn 2 zenith is usually decent.

[Jonathan Alexander]

When you don't have a turn two play, how often do you have to bluff removal? You usually should have removal then. I agree on Zenith turn two after leading with Noble Hierarch. It's a pretty decent play.

[JVzer0]

I'll be playing at the SCG Open in Dallas this Sunday (I've been slowly collecting the cards for zoo, so this will be my first legacy event ever!), here's my list:

Creatures
1 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of The Reliquary

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Price of Progress

Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath


Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Silence
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

A few notes:
- 6 basics but only 3 duals - I only own 3 duals. I'll try to pick up another plateau, taiga, and windswept heath at the site and use them to replace 3 of the basics
- Green Sun's Zenith - it probably seems weird to run the zeniths in small zoo, but I've basically swapped them for libraries. Given the recent success of combo decks, the zeniths seem better as a way to increase my chances of getting teeg into play without having to run a bunch of teeg's maindeck.
- Silence instead of orim's chant - I don't own chants. If I can find them for an ok price at the event site I'll swap them out, but I'm on a budget and the duals/fetchland take priority


What do you guys think? I'm mostly looking for advice on the SB since I'm unsure if the teeg/silence/REB plan is the right way to go against combo, but I'd love any comments on the list. I find myself wanting to cut the graveyard hate from the board, but I'm afraid that may just be greedy.

[Nelis]

On Green Sun's Zenith:

Which is more often the correct play?

Play A: I open with Turn 1 Nacatl. I have no 2-drop for turn 2, but GSZ another Nacatl for steady pressure.
Play B: Same first two turns, but I hold bag the GSZ so I can get something scary like Knight or Terravore later on.

Obviously matchups, lands, hand, and opponent's board have a lot to do with this decision. But generally speaking, which has more often been correct in your experience?


I take it you play Big Zoo? Or do fast Zoo lists run GSZ too nowadays?

You have to take the matchup in account. If you play against a control or combo deck than I would definitely go for the Nacatl because aggro is the only way to win with a slow hand. If you only have one creature in hand then one Nacatl is not enough to keep on the pressure. Not to mention the situation you're in when they remove your only Nacatl.

If you have a 3 drop in hand you want to play that on turn 3. So you have to wait to turn 4 for you to play GSZ (if you have the 4 mana for that) because I can't imagine that you want to put a 2 drop in play on turn 3 instead (unless you need Gaddock Teeg or another hate card). Maybe you'd want to go for a Tarmogoyf (depending on how big it will be), but even so you lose out on 4/5 damage because of damage of the second Nacatl you didn't search for. (When Tarmogoyf does its first damage on turn 4 the 2nd Nacatl would've done 9. Tarmogoyf will never be 9 in power to compensate).***

Against aggro you could probably wait since Big Zoo plays the control role in that matchup. I take it you have at least 2 removal in hand if you don't have a 2 drop creature. Otherwise you probably should've mulliganed.

*** I also take it you don't have a Hierarch in hand because otherwise you would've either played it on turn 1 or on turn 2.

[trivial_matters]

I actually don't think I've seen a Bant list that doesn't play Knight.

I was under the impression that most Bant decks don't play Knight of the Reliquary. Looking at some lists I now see that they do.



Anyway, my contention is that "Hierarch, go" is not an aggro start, and a huge reason why I play Swords over Path. True aggro decks like Merfolk (which I've been testing against a bit), will play Vial turn 1, Silvergill and Mutavault turn 2 and possibly Vial in Cursecatcher. You have to go into damage control (literally) mode at this point. Giving your opponent life is much more inconsequential than giving them another land so they can play the Coralhelm AND LoA on their next turn. You're essentially accerating a deck that's faster than you are. Same with Goblins. In these matchups, you need to stabilize, then go on the attack. Extra removal would be helpful, but I think these matchups are winnable with StP/Bolt/Jitte and big blockers. Those slots are better left devoted to tougher matchups.

I agree. This is the reason I think Swords to Plowshares is better in Big Zoo. The other is Wasteland.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What's a good answer to Burn when playing Zoo? I'm looking for sideboard stuff.

-Lightning Helix
-Burrenton Forge-Tender
-Leyline of Sanctity

Just drawing a blank really. I've been having trouble racing them lately.

[JVzer0]

What's a good answer to Burn when playing Zoo? I'm looking for sideboard stuff.

-Lightning Helix
-Burrenton Forge-Tender
-Leyline of Sanctity

Just drawing a blank really. I've been having trouble racing them lately.


Kitchen Finks? Rest for the Weary and Kor Firewalker seem like they would make it pretty hard for them to race you, although you probably don't want to waste any space (main or SB) on those types of cards.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Kitchen Finks? Rest for the Weary and Kor Firewalker seem like they would make it pretty hard for them to race you, although you probably don't want to waste any space (main or SB) on those types of cards.

Which would you suggest? There are on average 3-4 burn decks at our tournaments. They tend to go X-0. So playing them in the upper brackets is a common occurance.

[AlexAI]

What's your list, Random? What type of Burn are we talking about? Pure Burn? Goblin Guide? Keldon Marauders?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

All the lists are creature based (i.e. Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Keldon Marauders, elementals).

Here's the list:

20 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

21 Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape

19 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
(Note: Dredge, Dragon Stompy and Affinity are in my meta)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serenity
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

[JVzer0]

I'll be playing at the SCG Open in Dallas this Sunday (I've been slowly collecting the cards for zoo, so this will be my first legacy event ever!), here's my list:


What do you guys think? I'm mostly looking for advice on the SB since I'm unsure if the teeg/silence/REB plan is the right way to go against combo, but I'd love any comments on the list. I find myself wanting to cut the graveyard hate from the board, but I'm afraid that may just be greedy.

No love? I'd love to get any feedback at all before I pack my list up to leave tomorrow morning.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

No love? I'd love to get any feedback at all before I pack my list up to leave tomorrow morning.

Play Orim's Chant against combo. It's sexy against Sneak Attack and Tendrils decks.

EDIT: Also I'm not a fan of Bojuka Bog, even with Knight of the Reliquary. You're usually dead before you can tutor it out against Dredge.

[AlexAI]

All the lists are creature based (i.e. Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Keldon Marauders, elementals).

Here's the list:

20 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

21 Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape

19 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
(Note: Dredge, Dragon Stompy and Affinity are in my meta)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serenity
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

Maybe cut 2 Crypts and a Choke for 2 Enlightened Tutor + Wheel of Sun and Moon? Against Burn you up your virtual Jitte count to 4, and not lose much against the rest of the decks you mentioned.

[jandax]

What's a good answer to Burn when playing Zoo? I'm looking for sideboard stuff.

-Lightning Helix
-Burrenton Forge-Tender
-Leyline of Sanctity

Just drawing a blank really. I've been having trouble racing them lately.

Easy:

Don' try to race them. Preserve your life total at all costs. Trade any creature you have for theirs, and fetch basics to dull their PoP. They can't do much about Leyline of Sanctity, and that card helps in storm match ups as well, so if you are really getting shut out by Burn, run Leylines. And play the control role.

[Mr. Safety]

Just a comment as an 'aside': I've heard whisperings that Terravore is good in zoo...anyone have some first-hand experience with this? I'm debating putting up to 3 in my list.