[Deck] Zoo

[Temanaras]

Well, would it be worth the SB slot to main on and SB the other and switch out? The spot people seem to reserve for jitte #2 is for the aggro matches, which can be overcome with pro green or pro blue/red. Not to dis the jitte, but is a 2 of worth the SB slot over countering the removal? I looked at light and shadow and the one thing about the 2 is thats and extra draw with sylvan, but the same can be said for the counters on jitte, but over all I was unimpressed.

Another card I never see in a zoo list is Avoid Fate, I can see why it's not an instant in but with so much removal in the meta, is it not worth the thought?

[bombbonne]

The reason that I played a second jitte was so that I could kill other jittes and still have a jitte to use. It comes in against the mirror and fish. You're right about all the swords but it's really a tough call as to whats better. They all have there benifits, so I guess it's what you feel your deck is weak against. My issue was having too many cards to bring in during certain mu's.

As for avoid fate, it falls in the same catagory as mental mistep in zoo. You want to be threatening with presure rather than countering there STP's or GFT.

[Machahiko]

From what I've seen, a lot of people actually have 2 jittes in the sideboard with no mystics at all in the deck. So there's 2 jitte just so you'll have a better chance at drawing it. With mystic I'd think more about whether to run one or two.

Also regarding the swords, I dont really like feast and famine, but that's my personal taste. I myself like sword of body and mind. Protection from blue is.. "nice", and protection from green is very relevant in a format full of tarmogoyfs. Anyways, getting 2/2 wolves to block/race/equip sword seems really good and milling for 10 is always nice for tarmogoyf/terravore. I myself dont think that you really need batterskull for this deck. It's a bit more of a controllish card.

Anyways, I'd be more than glad to suggest Elspeth, Knight-Errant to you. I believe I've won every game (or at least almost!) I've been able to play her. Price of Progress seems like a metagame dependant card, I dont like it md, but I guess it'll be great if you can pull it off!

So, I've been working on a cat zoo list and been thinking about sideboard for my metagame. Here's what I've done so far:

3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Price of Progress
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Null Rod
2 Red Elemental Blast

Maindeck is really close to Hatfield's list, -1 Sylvan Library and maybe -1 Grim Lavamancer, with added 1/2 Fireblast and 1 Knight of the Reliquary. Yes, my metagame is full of dredge if you're wondering. Can't wait for the next legacy tournament to see this deck in action.

[Temanaras]

Batterskull is somewhat of a personal choice and a metagame choice. With Stoneforge its a 4/4 for 2 that comes into play under standstill and can give you the pressure to make someone crack their own standstill. If you opt out of stoneforge and landstill is missing from your metagame, you can skip it, but I love how they interact to much to let it by.

[DragoFireheart]

Batterskull is somewhat of a personal choice and a metagame choice. With Stoneforge its a 4/4 for 2 that comes into play under standstill and can give you the pressure to make someone crack their own standstill. If you opt out of stoneforge and landstill is missing from your metagame, you can skip it, but I love how they interact to much to let it by.

If I was Landstill, I wouldn't let that Stoneforge resolve to begin with: between Spell Snare and STP, I will kill it.

[Richard Cheese]

Well, would it be worth the SB slot to main on and SB the other and switch out? The spot people seem to reserve for jitte #2 is for the aggro matches, which can be overcome with pro green or pro blue/red. Not to dis the jitte, but is a 2 of worth the SB slot over countering the removal? I looked at light and shadow and the one thing about the 2 is thats and extra draw with sylvan, but the same can be said for the counters on jitte, but over all I was unimpressed.

Another card I never see in a zoo list is Avoid Fate, I can see why it's not an instant in but with so much removal in the meta, is it not worth the thought?

Seems like Fling would be better than Avoid Fate. At least it works towards the goal of killing the opponent. Still too narrow though, because those slots could just be more threats/burn.

[Temanaras]

So to continue with my card choice questions, in my version of zoo I have been running 2 Magma Jet and it has worked well. The scry has saved me a time or two on dead drops or running into a 6th land when I need a threat. The 2 for 2 is weak, but I want to get peoples opinion.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So to continue with my card choice questions, in my version of zoo I have been running 2 Magma Jet and it has worked well. The scry has saved me a time or two on dead drops or running into a 6th land when I need a threat. The 2 for 2 is weak, but I want to get peoples opinion.

Why run this over Sylvan Library?

[voltron00x]

These Zoo lists look really strong, I'm really excited to see that rumors of the deck's demise were overstated. I'm not sure Null Rod is really needed right now and I do like Surgical Extraction, b/c of its versatility; I think Dredge is going to remain popular for a while. The sideboard PoP is nice, I used to do a 3/1 split and have played 2/2, or run none in the 75. 0/4 is ballsy, if only to devote that much sb space to it, but actually makes sense. Sylvan Library seems great right now although I still hate pushing above 2 copies myself. I'd play 3x Reb/Pyro, and I don't know if you need 23 lands with 2-3 Sylvan Libraries, but I haven't tried out that list to really know.

Also, Thrun! That guy is a boss.

[jandax]

With the format reportedly "slowing down", or at least stateside it's slowing down, why not run Steppe Lynx/Wild Nacatl? Screw mental misstep, Zoo has another dozen one drops on deck. Fast aggro will always be a contender

[Richard Cheese]

Ok, I have been testing a variety of Zoo builds (bombonne's from the GP, Cat, Big), and I just keep getting blown out by Merfolk in like 60-70% of games. I know this is supposed to be a good matchup, but I just keep running into Misstep/Daze/Force over the first 3-4 turns, and I'm sitting there with an empty board and looking at a bunch of fish that are now out of burn range. Is there some strategy I'm missing here? Am I just unlucky or bad at Magic or what?

[Machahiko]

How many lavamancers you've had in your builds? Did you play MD games or with sideboard? I tested few MD games Zoo vs Merfolk and when I played cat zoo, I won 80% of the games and the only losses I got was due to horrible flood of lands for me. When playing big zoo (with punishing fire / grove combo) I had much harder time to set up the combo to keep the fish away. Because of that, I won only 60% of the games we played.

How many games have you played as well, play some more games and I guess it might just even out later on. I find it a bit weird that they use misstep / daze / fow 3-4 first turns, play lands (maybe vial) and enough lords to get out of burn range. Check how many cards the fish players have in their opening hand. ;)

So here's my question for you guys:

What are the best sideboard/maindeck cards against dredge? Dredge is running really rampant in my metagame and because of that I'd love to know what tools there are to fight dredge. Because of the nature of how games go against dredge, I would need to have so good sideboard plan against dredge, that I should win the both sideboard games. Here's what I've thought out so far:

MD hate:
Gaddock Teeg
Bojuka Bog

SB hate:
Bojuka Bog
Relic of Progenitus
Tormod's Crypt
Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Gaddock Teeg
Surgical Extraction
Volcanic Fallout

If I just could keep the bridges away the matchup would be so easy, we have the superior creatures but it's really really annoying to kill your own creature in order to remove a card from opposing player's graveyard, just to see another one go to a graveyard next turn when they dredge. I'm not afraid at ALL about the dread return targets, just the mass of zombies is really really annoying.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm thinking Dueling Grounds is going to get a spot in my SB. Helps against zombie tokens, elves, thopter tokens, fishmen, and goblins.

[jandax]

But what are you going to take out against each of those matchups? Grounds doesn't advance your aggressive board state at all

[CorpT]

But what are you going to take out against each of those matchups? Grounds doesn't advance your aggressive board state at all

Yeah, Dueling Grounds is terrible. I can't imagine a scenario where an aggressive creature deck would want to limit itself to only one attacking with one creature. If you want to beat Dredge, play GY hate. If you want to beat Elves, Merfolk and Goblins, play good cards that Zoo already plays.

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah, Dueling Grounds is terrible. I can't imagine a scenario where an aggressive creature deck would want to limit itself to only one attacking with one creature. If you want to beat Dredge, play GY hate. If you want to beat Elves, Merfolk and Goblins, play good cards that Zoo already plays.

If you're running a SFM list like bombonne's, I think it's entirely plausible to sit back and ping with Lavamancers while attacking with a single sword-holding KotR/Goyf getting exalted triggers from Pridemages. Maybe it's too situational, I really haven't had much of a chance to test it, but it seems like it would be handy in a variety of bad matchups.

Edit: Nevermind, just realized Ghostly Prison would be better in all those cases (except combo elves), and easier to cast.

[Charlatan]

One thing that i really miss in the deck is the capability to destroy non-basic lands. Sometimes I wish to cut Karakas out and add a single Wasteland. Just to fetch to destroy some mazes, ruins, glacial, etc...

I really don't trust in a single Karakas, even with 3-4 KotR, to win against Emrakul/Iona's decks. I just think that it is too slow...


Any thoghts?

[jandax]

Be a man, play three Wastelands next to the Karakas.

[boneclub24]

This is a build I'm going to play in a tournament next weekend. The meta is unknown, but I expect a lot of Junk type decks (Team Italia, Rock, ect), and the new MUC decks to appear. I chose Zoo because I feel like it is an all around solid aggro choice that doesn't draw too crappily and doesn't outright fold to discard. Any quick advice before I head off?

Land: 22
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures: 22
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells: 19
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard: 15
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog

[AlexAI]

I would up the land count to at least 20, you only have 18 land listed(one of them being a dryad arbor). In my list I only run 1 and 2cc things, and I still don't feel right running 20. With Horizon Canopy acting as a passable mana source and late game cycler, you can afford to run more than 18 land. I would drop a GSZ and the arbor for a basic forest + plains and either the Teeg and/or a Pridemage for 1 or 2 canopy.

I feel Compost does too little against black based decks. They either run Pernicious Deed and you get a small consolation for them blowing you out with it, or they don't play deed and then the black cards will not be the problem. If they hymn you while you have it out, they still 2 for 1'd you because you had to play it, and even worse you spent 1G into something that was not a threat or removal as well. You don't want to drop it early for that same reason. I would run 2 Price of Progress in their place since they will help you against the hardest of the rockish matchups (TA, Junk)

I'd also find room for 2 Choke, since they are a beating and a half against most tempo or control based blue decks. And maybe a Bojuka Bog for random blowouts in Knight wars.

Maybe -1 Crypt -3 Compost -1 Teeg, +2 PoP, +2 Choke, +1 Bog for the sideboard?

[boneclub24]

Alright, I'll try those changes. Thanks mate. I don't know about the land thing though, I'm finding 18 to be about the right amount.

EDIT: Also, land being 22 was a typo :)

[jandax]

If you're planning on facing Junk and other decks that run Wasteland, you greedy

[keys]

GSZ is terrible in Zoo without Dryad Arbor or Noble Hierarch to help accelerate it. I would play more creatures or some equipment instead.

[Richard Cheese]

Dropped GSZ from my fast Zoo list, very pleased with the results. How do other players feel about a fast list running 19 lands (Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx)?

[Borealis]

In reference to those of you opting to drop below 20 lands in your Fast Zoo builds, I recommend reading these words of wisdom from Mr. Gavin Verhey:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/22021_Flow_Of_Ideas_Are_You_Playing_Enough_Lands.html

As tempting as it is to cram in extra creatures and spells, I think dropping below 22 or 21 lands isn't worth it, even in these hyper-fast 1-drop centered builds. At the moment I personally am running 4x Lynx, 4x Guide, 4x Nacatl, 3x Lavamancer, 4x Lightning Bolt, and 4x Chain Lightning, and I'm still trying to find a way to squeeze in a 22nd land (Horizon Canopy). Even those of you opting not to use Steppe Lynx should still keep the land count high. Zoo wants to be able to play a 1-drop turn 1, 2 1-drops turn 2, and a 1-drop and a 2-drop on turn 3. If you don't draw enough lands, you can't do that, and Wastelands will slow you down even further. My philosophy currently is to run 12x fetchlands, which feed KOTR, Grim Lavamancer, Goyf, and Steppe Lynx, while reducing Wasteland's effectiveness in denying me the right colors. Running that many fetches also can have an actual "deck-thinning" impact in the late game, while still ensuring I hit my land drops. In addition, it means Jace's Fateseal is less effective, and my Sylvan Library is more effective. Horizon Canopy is also amazing at keeping your gas going mid-late game, which is why I want 2.

Lands are good, Mulliganing sucks. Keep that percentage over 33%!!

[Borealis]

For Reference, here is my current list:

Dudes (24):

4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spellage (14)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library

LandHO! (21)

4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

I have been trying to decide whether to run Path to Exile main, over Price of Progress or some number of Chain Lightnings, but this was basically the list I ran at the GP.

[CorpT]

I would not run less than 3 Grim Lavamancer now. He's very solid. I generally don't like 4, but it may be needed these days. Pridemage has been a little more disappointing lately so I would look at him as a cut.

I think 3 is probably the right number for Path if you expect to see any Knights or Tarmogoyf unless you go up on the burn which is a perfectly valid strategy too.

I've been looking a lower end, faster deck that can really abuse the speed of Zoo and use Retribution of the Meek in the board. Probably similar to Patrick Sullivan's list, but with some tweaks. I know he said he didn't like Steppe Lynx, but I love him. I'm not a fan of Rift Bolt though, so that would probably become some other type of burn for me. Basically a 1-drop Zoo style list with lots of burn backup.

[jandax]

Isn't that just goyf-sligh, then?

[Richard Cheese]

I think 3 is the right number of Lavamancer. You more or less always want to see him, but multiples are really hard to support without shafting your Goyfs and KotRs.

I think some number of Paths is necessary maindeck. There are a lot of fatties that are out of burn range and you don't want them stalling up the board. Goyf, KotR, Terravore, Tombstalker. Any of those can just sit there and buy time.

I would also suggest 3x Library main. It's the difference between winning and losing so often, and multiples aren't the worst thing ever.

[hungryLIKEALION]

The only reason multiples of library aren't the worse thing ever is because the first one always gets countered/blown up. ;p

[jandax]

Probably the worst thing about multiple Libraries is when multiple Librarys trigger in play :|

[trivial_matters]

Probably the worst thing about multiple Libraries is when multiple Librarys trigger in play :|

Well yes, but if you have a fetch you can fetch and shuffle your library between the triggers, which is pretty neat.


Not to mention that double Library + Fetch/active Reliquary means that you can basically see 5 cards and choose from them before drawing.

You draw, then draw 2 from the first trigger, choose the best one and put 2 cards back on top, fetch and shuffle, draw other 2 cards and put back two of the 3 cards you drew this turn.

Paying life for one fo the two abilities just increases the amount of cards you get to draw/see.

[jandax]

Yeah, it's just that the majority of players wouldn't properly stack those triggers. Takes time

[Vinnie]

hey everyone

this is my first post here,and I want to knowwhat u guys SB against Show & Sneak Atack deck.

Always a problem to me

I was thinking on phyrexian metamorph,that I still can use against jitte,iona os another artifact/creature that could gimme some kind of adavantage.

ty

[iam09]

Was able to complete my zoo deck recently and here is the deck list: I've splashed in Dark confidant for draw engine/card advantage. Tips and suggestions would be much appreciated.. thx

"Manila Zoo"

Creature 24
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 dark confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

instant/sorcery 13

2Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

Artifact 2
2U.Jitte


Land [21]
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

[CorpT]

Anyone with experience going against BUG Still type decks? Lots of counters, lots of creature kill, lots of card draw. Any good sideboard ideas against it?

[Koby]

hey everyone

this is my first post here,and I want to knowwhat u guys SB against Show & Sneak Atack deck.

Always a problem to me

I was thinking on phyrexian metamorph,that I still can use against jitte,iona os another artifact/creature that could gimme some kind of adavantage.

ty

Welcome to The Source, Vinnie. Please take a moment to read some of the stickies in the main forum to get familiar with the forum rules.

Against the Sneak/Show decks, you want to counter the Show and Tell and some of their filtering, so REB is useful in that aspect. Against Sneak Attack, quickly removing the enchantment is useful too; but doesn't always help out. It might typically become a race to see who can win faster.


Anyone with experience going against BUG Still type decks? Lots of counters, lots of creature kill, lots of card draw. Any good sideboard ideas against it?

Thrun, the Last Troll is a good option, as well as a steady stream of pressure to overwhelm them. REB is nice against an active Jace, but it's not very likely that it will resolve against their counters. Man-lands could also be useful. Steady pressure might be the best way, coupled with Wasteland/REB disruption along the way.

[Borealis]

On Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage and Sylvan Library:

I agree Lavamancer should be a 3-of, and he is now. I was testing out the Goblin Guide playset, as they are more useful in numbers, but Grim Lavamancer is still more valuable in too many matchups to skimp on. 3/3 split is what I'll be running tonight at the LGS.

I disagree that Qasali Pridemage is cuttable right now however. Stoneforge and Batterskull alone make this card more valuable than ever, not to mention all the Landstill decks running around. Also, without maindeck artifact hate, fast zoo decks (with all our glorious 1-drops) just fold to a Chalice of the Void on "One". Exalted is also nothing to sneeze at, so QP stays at 4 in my list.

I've been tempted to run 3 Sylvan Library before too, as it has won me many games that were otherwise out of reach. However, I think 2 is the right number, as we don't need to see it every game and in some cases we don't want to see it at all. I could see having 1 in the SB for control matches, but even that seems unnecessary. Jandax and trivial_matters are right though, if you know how to stack the triggers properly and use your fetchlands wisely, multiple Sylvan Libraries can actually be quite useful. I can see running 3 in a bigger Zoo list, but at the moment I think we want as much pressure as possible.

This also leads to the age old question of whether to run Dark Confidant or not in Zoo. It seems tempting to me but the sacrifice of running an even less stable manabase doesn't seem worth the sometimes-added advantage of a couple Bob flips. If anything, I think Stoneforge Mystic is just as valuable and adds a similar, albeit slower, card advantage engine for the same price, but on color. As great as Bob is, I don't think it's worth getting Wastelanded or mana screwed out of the game more often.

On BUG Still:

BUG Still certainly seems like the worst of the Standstill decks for us, especially the ones with heavier black removal. In addition to what rukcus said above, we have Choke and Price of Progress to help our game against them. I think Price of Progress (PoP) is stronger in Zoo, since we are a proactive deck and we need to keep pressure on them, which Choke doesn't really accomplish. By the time you are ready to cast it, they probably don't need their nonbasics that much, so it's usually better to punish them for having them in play. Also, keeping track of what their counterspell suite is like during Game 1 can help you close the other games with more confidence. It's easy to fall into the trap thinking they always have a counter, but that's what they want you to believe. Count how many Spell Snares they use against you and gauge what other counterspells they might have in hand before you "POP" your PoP, and you might be able to sneak through a high damage spell for the win.

[trivial_matters]

Some good points there. I disagree on Choke though. Landing a Choke often means you win because most of the time they can't get rid of it. Timing it right is quite important, since playing it when the majority of their lands are tapped greatly reduces their options.

Price of Progress is really good and I'd run it in any case.

[jandax]

Try wasteland over PoP. Most folks see PoP as a threat and might play with it in mind. But wasting them in the opening turns is nut high. For the rest of the match they play basics or run their shit into WL, it helps Zoo's aggro strategy a bit. However, PoP can straight up kill outta nowhere, but can be countered pretty easily.

[Borealis]

I will give Wasteland a try. A friend actually encouraged me to try it at the GP but I hadn't playtested the mana base at all so I chose to stay stable in that regard. I hesitate to add Wastes because nearly every card in the deck is color intensive, but I can see the value. Will test this next week, if I'm not playing Junk.

[Mr. Safety]

Try wasteland over PoP. Most folks see PoP as a threat and might play with it in mind. But wasting them in the opening turns is nut high. For the rest of the match they play basics or run their shit into WL, it helps Zoo's aggro strategy a bit. However, PoP can straight up kill outta nowhere, but can be countered pretty easily.

I'm currently using 2 PoPs in my sideboard. I like the fact that it can end games quickly vs. some combo variants.

[bombbonne]

I've been tinkering around with my zoo list for the B-More open, and i've been having trouble with the new hivemind deck. I'm considering running 2 angel's grace in the board just to auto win the MU, but I hate running cards for just one deck. Enchantment removal isn't that good because they just got off in response, and if they give you prority so that you can cast a krosin grip, they are just a bad hivemind player.

Also, play Tariff, that card is awesome against progen decks and show and tell.

[lordofthepit]

I've been tinkering around with my zoo list for the B-More open, and i've been having trouble with the new hivemind deck. I'm considering running 2 angel's grace in the board just to auto win the MU, but I hate running cards for just one deck. Enchantment removal isn't that good because they just got off in response, and if they give you prority so that you can cast a krosin grip, they are just a bad hivemind player.

Also, play Tariff, that card is awesome against progen decks and show and tell.

Best cards against that deck that aren't "narrow" are Ethersworn Canonist and Red Elemental Blasts. Gaddock Teeg is decent too, but doesn't stop Show and Tell.

The awesome thing about Canonist is that if they cheat in Hive Mind off Show and Tell, you can just slip in a Canonist and destroy their Hive Mind with a Pridemage or a Blast on your turn. They won't be able to play a Pact because they'll be first up to pay.

[jnosrati]

Last time i played was around survival banning, but before the batterskull buisness, and it seems that it is just better to play a slower deck with batterskull than zoo now. Or at least this is what I hear. Personally, i'd like to hear some suggestions as to how to make my deck more prepared for the meta, and any arguments for or against Batterskull/mystic and green suns zenith.

Heres my list, its very fast, so it feels weird if i were to slow it down, but friends are encouraging me to.


Creature 24
2 teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 steppe lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary (or maindeck krosan grip depending on meta)

enchantment 2
2 sylvan library

instant/sorcery 16

3 Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 POP

Land [20]

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
1 savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills


I was consistantly top 8ing with this, but it seems that our meta is full of stoneforge decks and dredge now.
Should i put stoneforge package in? if yes, how.
Zenith? seems bad to me, others disagree..zoo is tempo based, it's not about looking for defensive answers, but about making to many problems for the defense to not be able to answer...

[ajfennewald]

Is zoo bad against stone forge decks? That has not been my experiece.

[AlexAI]

Your list looks fine to me.

I ran two mystics at my last local weekly and they were fine, but I don't think Batterskull is required when you just run two mystics and are running 3/3s + virtual 4/5s for 1 and Goyfs at 2. In my experiences, Batterskull has value as a late game winner in decks built around mystic, which fast Zoo lists are not and should not be. It also does well against decks with little to no removal/fat, which we already should do well against. I think playing mystics in this deck should attempt solve our biggest combat related problem in getting past fat guys with our weenies(Pro: Green sword for aggression and Jitte for racing fat/being a general bad-ass).

In playing against Batterskull, you'll most likely be able to remove the mystic making it extremely slow, allowing an attempt to get the jump on them before turn 5+ where it'll come down. But again, it's just a 4/4. Goyf will usually outsize it at that point, as well as Knights. Pridemage/Path is a pain for them as well since you can usually hold those for it unless you're playing Bant/Rock + Stoneforge. You also can run a few Ancient Grudges in the sideboard if you really have fear of it. Grudges are pretty good right now in my meta, anyway.

I've tried Green Sun's Zenith, didn't like it much. To make it worthwhile you have to start to look like Rock - Black + Lavamancer/a little burn, and start fighting midrange battles Zoo really shouldn't be fighting in my opinion.

[jnosrati]

So in this new meta, what decks seem to give you the most trouble? Obviously tendrils and dredge, but I dont know about the new combo decks and maverick, etc. also r/w/x stoneforge decks seem hart to deal with because they have a lot of removal, so we're just trading creatures until they play bigger things and batterskull.

[jandax]

Last time i played was around survival banning, but before the batterskull buisness, and it seems that it is just better to play a slower deck with batterskull than zoo now. Or at least this is what I hear. Personally, i'd like to hear some suggestions as to how to make my deck more prepared for the meta, and any arguments for or against Batterskull/mystic and green suns zenith.

Heres my list, its very fast, so it feels weird if i were to slow it down, but friends are encouraging me to.


Creature 24
2 teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 steppe lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary (or maindeck krosan grip depending on meta)

enchantment 2
2 sylvan library

instant/sorcery 16

3 Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 POP

Land [20]

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
1 savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills


I was consistantly top 8ing with this, but it seems that our meta is full of stoneforge decks and dredge now.
Should i put stoneforge package in? if yes, how.
Zenith? seems bad to me, others disagree..zoo is tempo based, it's not about looking for defensive answers, but about making to many problems for the defense to not be able to answer...
maybe you wanna follow your own advice?

[AlexAI]

So in this new meta, what decks seem to give you the most trouble? Obviously tendrils and dredge, but I dont know about the new combo decks and maverick, etc. also r/w/x stoneforge decks seem hart to deal with because they have a lot of removal, so we're just trading creatures until they play bigger things and batterskull.

RWU and RWB don't seem that bad to me, granted no one runs it in my metagame. What big threats do they run? Maverick isn't run in my meta, either, but I would guess it's close since its basically guys + removal v more guys + less removal. Storm combo is still a bitch, but what are you gonna do, I suppose. Dredge is weird, one month I'll lose to it 3 times, and then win the next few times easily. My losses with my latest Zoo lists I've been trying out the past month have been the usual suspects, NO RUG along with Painter/Double Chalice blowouts. Lost a match to Merfolk, happens.

[jnosrati]

So where is MD knight the best/worst? Im considering entirely cutting 3 drops so that I can run a 4th lavamancer. thoughts?

[AlexAI]

I haven't ran knights MD in three or so months. Since misstep got printed I just overloaded with ones and twos with an ideal of casting four threats by turn three, attempting to bust through counters/removal. Running knight out turn three to get dazed is horrible, and forcing it really isn't that much better for us since we still didn't advance the board state any that turn. I'd rather play a two and a one turn three. Knight is usually a 4/4-5/5 unless we tap her a few turns, but the game may have passed you by if you're at that point since most other deck's late-games are more impressive.

[CorpT]

I have not missed Knights at all. A good mix of 1 drops and burn gets there just fine. I was running Pat Cox's list tonight and beating a good mix of decks: Goblins, NO RUG, Burn and Deadguy. I miss the Gaddock Teeg main, but the Stoneforge was very nice to get Jitte and SoBaM. Still tuning the board, but very happy with 12 solid one drops + Grim.

[BantFTW]

Something about Big Zoo, it's good but not closely so aggresive as normal zoo, it's just slower and isn't right to play than... Zoo stands for going fast and stuff but big zoo is to slow and if they kill your dryad arbor/noble then you're also fucked up so I woudn't play it anymore.

Now about normal zoo:
Why woudn't you play kotr more then one time :O?
He's a beast I play atm 1 terravore and one kotr in big zoo. But how are they in normal zoo? Never tested them really with normal zoo lol :)

ty

[CorpT]

Spending 3 mana to drop a 4/4 or 5/5 into play just isn't enough any more. I miss the flexibility of running specialty lands with him, but he was always so lackluster that I never actually wanted him. More burn and faster creatures is the way to go IMO. At least for now in my meta.

The burn helps with the slower control decks. It takes a critical mass of it to punch through their defenses, but with some speedy creatures getting them down, some instant speed burn is great at putting pressure on them.

Knight gets put down and either Jace bounced or removed for very cheap. Zoo spending 3 mana at sorcery speed to get answered by a 1 or 2 mana instant is not good.

I've found the Lightning Helixes to be all-stars. Not only are they great in mirror and other aggro-ish decks like Merfolk and Goblins, but they can't be misstepped and the random life gain has even won some games against a Progenitus that now takes 3 swings to kill instead of 2.

In my mind, the biggest question is Steppe Lynx vs Kird Ape/Loam Lion vs Goblin Guide. We have 6 One Drops to play:

Wild Nacatl
Kird Ape
Loam Lion
Steppe Lynx
Goblin Guide
Grim Lavamancer

IMO, and I think most would agree, we start with 4x Wild Nacatl and 3x Grim Lavamancer.

After that, it gets a little more complicated:
Kird Ape/Loam Lion:
Pros: Consistent. Always on.
Cons: Only a 2/3 for 1.

Steppe Lynx:
Pros: Bashing for 4 on turn 2 is awesome.
Cons: Inconsistent. Cannot block well at all. Better with more land, but more land is not what you usually want.

Goblin Guide:
Pros: Bashing for 2 on turn 1 is almost as awesome as 4 on turn 2.
Cons: Gives opponents lands. Not good with Wasteland. Not able to bash through much outside of turn 1 or turn 2.

Steppe Lynx gets better with Sylvan Library providing pseudo-card draw and filtering, but Sylvan can be slow a lot of the time. Great against the control MUs, but not great against the aggro MUs.

Right now I'm playing:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer

It has been good because it's so consistent. If you keep a land light hand and don't draw more, that's ok because your guys are already pumped. You're not relying on drawing land to pump them. And generally, land you don't particularly want. I think that was the main convincer for me. If I'm drawing land, my Lynx is better, but my burn is worse. The downside is that Lynx can be blocked, but burn cannot.

[Richard Cheese]

I haven't been thrilled with Steppe Lynx either. As explosive as it can be, it's just too conditional and the fact that it forces you to play 22+ lands makes it a pain in the ass, and counterproductive in a deck that just has a ton of cheap threats and burn. Kird Ape has been just fine.

Goblin Guide I haven't tested with much yet, but I suspect the tradeoff in card advantage is not really worth the extra 2 damage. He also trades with all kinds of important stuff that Ape doesn't...Merfolks and pridemages and such. Could be funny to set them up for a massive PoP though.

[jnosrati]

I firmly believe that you do not ever need extra lands for steppe lynx. 12 fetches 3 basics 5 duals always does it. the thing is, worst case scenario for me hes a 4/5 on 2 of the three relevant turns and a 0/1 the the other turn, but my opponent could deal with it if it were a 2/3 anyhow. so that's 2 swings (8 damage) vs 0 damage because my opponent has a 3/3 out. lynx is awesome, but don't over-invest.

[AlexAI]

My weenie list in non-Stoneforge Zoo is:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer


I prefer Guide + Lynx because I expect my weenies to be answered eventually, if not quickly, so I want maximum damage from them before they hit the bucket or a fatty comes down on the other end. I prefer using burn/Path to lower the amount of times I need to worry about defense.


Guide has been good. I don't recall losing games to his drawback. Who cares if they get a few extra land? That means Guide is swinging profitably, multiple times. I've had some situations where they drop a Bob, I drop a Guide. Before they know it, I burn them out because they've taken 7-10 damage off of Bob from reveals because Guide moved all of the land to their hand already. Will it punish you eventually by digging them into Card X that screws you over? I guess. I can't think of many cards that we can't work around that wouldn't have screwed us, Guide or not, anyway (SnT, billion spells into Tendrils, etc.)

I use Lynx because it is randomly relevant, but the potential is so much higher than the 2/3s. Lynx can swing through a Goyf/Knight on occasion. It's your best hope against combo. Library makes it a monster. If you draw two, any fetch-land drawn late is horrific for your opponent. It can chump worst-case but that isn't a very compelling argument, to be honest. I agree that you don't need to pack more land in to fuel it. I'm running 21 land/10 fetches/1 Library and they've been fine.

I do think it's list dependent, though. I tend to lean toward more burn(11-12) in my lists, so that may be another reason why Guide/Lynx appeal to me. Stoneforge versions probably want the consistently fatter weenies to equip + swing without trading.

[Final Fortune]

For people running Lightning Helix, I recommend Dismember instead. Lightning Bolt effects have a diminishing returns vs aggro-control's Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary and Batterskulls (after Stoneforge Mystic cheats it into play) but Dismember does a really good job of keeping your Kird Apes and Loam Lions relevant by removing aggro-control's threats just as good as Path to Exile with less of a draw back and no mana color constraints.

I've been running this,

4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatil
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
20 Lands

And it's extremely difficult for aggro-control to stabilize, especially if they're relying on SFM->BS.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

For people running Lightning Helix, I recommend Dismember instead. Lightning Bolt effects have a diminishing returns vs aggro-control's Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary and Batterskulls (after Stoneforge Mystic cheats it into play) but Dismember does a really good job of keeping your Kird Apes and Loam Lions relevant by removing aggro-control's threats just as good as Path to Exile with less of a draw back and no mana color constraints.

I've been running this,

4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatil
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
20 Lands

And it's extremely difficult for aggro-control to stabilize, especially if they're relying on SFM->BS.

Dismember is terrible. Why would you want to take 4 life for removal? We play Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Swords to Plowshares.

The only life Zoo wants to do to itself is due to fetchlands, Horizon Canopy and Sylvan Library.

I'd rather give my opponent a land than pay 4 life any day.

Seriously. Cutting yourself isn't cool man.

[Crazy Eddie]

Dismember is terrible. Why would you want to take 4 life for removal? We play Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Swords to Plowshares.

I agree. Also, it would mean that you're running another set of removal (besides PtE) which you cannot shoot directly at your opponent, making it possibly another dead card.



And it's extremely difficult for aggro-control to stabilize, especially if they're relying on SFM->BS.

All your removal (especially Grim Lavamancer) will deal with Stoneforge Mystic before it can sneak an equipment in play, so I don't see the additional value of playing Dismember.

[Final Fortune]

Dismember is terrible. Why would you want to take 4 life for removal? We play Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Swords to Plowshares.

The only life Zoo wants to do to itself is due to fetchlands, Horizon Canopy and Sylvan Library.

I'd rather give my opponent a land than pay 4 life any day.

Seriously. Cutting yourself isn't cool man.

Why would you want to give your opponent a land for removal? Every creature removal spell in Zoo has a draw back, and Dismember's draw back is arguably better than Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile here. The life argument vs Dismember is irrelevant, Zoo is always the aggressor and is rarely ever concerned with its life total - which is why Sylvan Library is the draw engine of choice in the deck.

Personally, I like having 8 different ways of telling Tarmogoyf to fuck off with out taking card disadvantage, and any deck where Dismember is dead you've already lost to anyway - except maybe Spiral Tide.

I don't think Lightning Helix is cost efficient enough to play, 2cc removal is terrible and the direct damage is no where near as good as Price of Progress.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Why would you want to give your opponent a land for removal? Every creature removal spell in Zoo has a draw back, and Dismember's draw back is arguably better than Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile here. The life argument vs Dismember is irrelevant, Zoo is always the aggressor and is rarely ever concerned with its life total - which is why Sylvan Library is the draw engine of choice in the deck.

Personally, I like having 8 different ways of telling Tarmogoyf to fuck off with out taking card disadvantage, and any deck where Dismember is dead you've already lost to anyway - except maybe Spiral Tide.

I don't think Lightning Helix is cost efficient enough to play, 2cc removal is terrible and the direct damage is no where near as good as Price of Progress.

Since when did Zoo give a shit whether its opponent has more lands? That's the reason we play Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares. It clears the way of anything.

Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares are strictly better than Dismember.

They are a one mana answer to Tarmogoyf and anything else that doesn't have protection from white or god forbid "everything."

Unless you play black--guess what?--Dismember costs one mana and four life.

It won't kill anything bigger than a 5/5.

So why play a narrow removal spell that costs more than Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares?

By playing Dismember, all you really do is shoot yourself in the foot.

Also.

Life totals are very relevant when playing Zoo.

Oh darn! I can't draw that extra game winning burn spell with Sylvan Library because I chose to pay four life to play Dismember. Oh well. Maybe next time I'll play viable removal.

(And we get you hate Lightning Helix. So obviously don't play it. I'm just saying Dismember is an inferior choice for removal.)

[Final Fortune]

Since when did Zoo give a shit whether its opponent has more lands? That's the reason we play Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares. It clears the way of anything.

Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares are strictly better than Dismember.

They are a one mana answer to Tarmogoyf and anything else that doesn't have protection from white or god forbid "everything."

Unless you play black--guess what?--Dismember costs one mana and four life.

It won't kill anything bigger than a 5/5.

So why play a narrow removal spell that costs more than Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares?

By playing Dismember, all you really do is shoot yourself in the foot.

Also.

Life totals are very relevant when playing Zoo.

Oh darn! I can't draw that extra game winning burn spell with Sylvan Library because I chose to pay four life to play Dismember. Oh well. Maybe next time I'll play viable removal.

(And we get you hate Lightning Helix. So obviously don't play it. I'm just saying Dismember is an inferior choice for removal.)

Of course it matters, not being able to Path to Exile a Dryad Arbor because the opponent receives card parody loses games, and Path to Exiling a Stone Forge Mystic only to help accelerate them into Batterskull isn't ideal either - you're not always holding the Lightning Bolt to clear the way for Path to Exile in the mid game when the temp and card advantage are less relevant.

I mean, you seem to think giving opponents lands in a metagame being overrun by U/w control (SFM, Clique etc) is less important than losing life, but if that were the case Goblin Guide would be the one drop of choice - and it isn't. Dismember is probably just as good as Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares while having less of a draw back because it deals with 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, 5/5 Knights of the Reliquary, 4/4 Batterskulls and 5/5 Tombstalkers without advancing the opponent's strategy or slowing down yours. It's difficult for the opponent to boost Tarmogoyf past 4/5 after land, instant, sorcery and creature are in the graveyard and Knight of the Reliquary needs at least 3 lands. I'm not saying it wont happen, because it will, but the time window for them to play around Dismember is enough to kill them usually, and even when they've reached that time window you can still use Dismember as a combat trick to reduce the Tarmogoyf to 0/1 or 1/2 for a Kurd Ape to finish off.

Obviously you don't run Dismember and Sylvan Library in the same deck, hence Life doesn't matter. You're seriously underrating the card in Zoo if you're juding it without personal experience in the deck.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Obviously you don't run Dismember and Sylvan Library in the same deck, hence Life doesn't matter. You're seriously underrating the card in Zoo if you're juding it without personal experience in the deck.

Big surprise, but I play Zoo? So I don't understand what your point is.

Path to Exile answers Tombstalker just fine. You mentioned a drawback? What drawback? And since when did Team America start playing basic lands?

If you're trying to kill a Dryad Arbor, it's not usually because you want to mana screw your opponent. Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares still shuts the player off Natural Order (assuming that's what you were referring to).

Qasali Pridemage answers Batterskull just fine.

So you're basically saying drop Sylvan Library for Dismember?

[trivial_matters]

Giving an opponent a free land is a drawback. Zoo is fast and doesn't care about that as much as other decks, but sometimes it's still very annoying.

I haven't tried Dismember. I don't think it should be dismissed completely without any testing.

[Arsenal]

We're running Red and White. I'm not sure I understand how/why people are having trouble finding spot removal spells to supplement Path/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. For decks like monoblue Merfolk, Dismember seems reasonable as it gives them spot removal they would otherwise not have access to. But we are not monoblue Merfolk, we're running colors that give us access to Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Helix, etc. Why is Dismember being considered?

[jandax]

People wanna say they brought the tech to the Source. Or they don't fully comprehend what's going on with this deck and that card. Haven't tested it myself, never going to. StP is a fine 5th-Xth Path to Exile. Better for them to gain four or more life than Zoo pay four to just send some creature to the graveyard.

[Richard Cheese]

There are just so many things wrong here.

you're not always holding the Lightning Bolt to clear the way for Path to Exile in the mid game when the temp and card advantage are less relevant.

But you are always holding the Dismember?



I mean, you seem to think giving opponents lands in a metagame being overrun by U/w control (SFM, Clique etc) is less important than losing life, but if that were the case Goblin Guide would be the one drop of choice - and it isn't.

A tapped basic is a lot different than 1. Any land and 2. helping them accelerate through potentially dead draws into business



Dismember is probably just as good as Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares while having less of a draw back because it deals with 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, 5/5 Knights of the Reliquary, 4/4 Batterskulls and 5/5 Tombstalkers without advancing the opponent's strategy or slowing down yours. It's difficult for the opponent to boost Tarmogoyf past 4/5 after land, instant, sorcery and creature are in the graveyard and Knight of the Reliquary needs at least 3 lands. I'm not saying it wont happen, because it will, but the time window for them to play around Dismember is enough to kill them usually, and even when they've reached that time window you can still use Dismember as a combat trick to reduce the Tarmogoyf to 0/1 or 1/2 for a Kurd Ape to finish off.

I don't disagree with this entirely, except that for most opponents, their strategy is to get you to 0 life, so saying it doesn't advance their strategy is generally incorrect. Board position, yes.



Obviously you don't run Dismember and Sylvan Library in the same deck, hence Life doesn't matter. You're seriously underrating the card in Zoo if you're juding it without personal experience in the deck.
Even if it is excellent spot removal, I don't see it being worth trading Library for. In almost every match, Library is one of the most important cards to resolve (just look at the last SCG open). It drastically changes the course of the game, often more than removing a single creature could. Just thinking about the mirror, if you take 4 to off one of my guys and I have a Library out...unless you're going to kill me that turn, it's happy days. I'm going to draw into another dude, hell, I'll take 4 and draw into 2 dudes.



Of course it matters, not being able to Path to Exile a Dryad Arbor because the opponent receives card parody loses games

It's parity, not parody (parody is what Weird Al does).

It's not that Dismember isn't going to sometimes be better than Path, but I think more often than not, Path is going to be better. Path deals with all the same threats and then some, and sometimes exiling a creature can be pretty relevant. There is also the very narrow case of Pathing your own creature in response to removal if you're having mana issues. Maybe I'm misreading and you're suggesting cutting something else? Not sure what would be worth it though.

[Mr. Safety]

A little off topic, but I've been thinking about a Glittering Wish toolbox for zoo lately...for a couple of silver bullets/relivant cards out of the sideboard available g1:

Vexing Shusher
Gaddock Teeg
Lightning Helix
Burning-Tree Shaman


While these aren't ideal targets, they are available as well:

Guttural Response
Colossal Might
Figure of Destiny
Woolly Thoctar
Bloodbraid Elf
Boggart Ram-Gang
Double Cleave


So I'm looking to the experienced zoo players that visit this thread often on whether it would be a good idea to playest? I realize that Green Sun's Zenith is pretty damn awesome and all (and I haven't heard of zoo using Glittering Wish before) it at least has a small amount of added flexibility by getting not only creatures, but also potentially relivant spells.

Thank you for any info/viewpoints you share!

[Serbitar]

Glittering Wish seems awfully slow. I mean, Tarmogoyf often looks slow in this deck. But then, people do play Zenith, which is even slower (compared to Goyf, not to Wish). I guess if you are a very midrangy Zoo, you could try it. But in my opinion Zoo is neither supposed to be a midrange deck nor a silverbullet answer deck. The targets don't even look that enticing.

[CorpT]

A little off topic, but I've been thinking about a Glittering Wish toolbox for zoo lately...for a couple of silver bullets/relivant cards out of the sideboard available g1:

Vexing Shusher
Gaddock Teeg
Lightning Helix
Burning-Tree Shaman


While these aren't ideal targets, they are available as well:

Guttural Response
Colossal Might
Figure of Destiny
Woolly Thoctar
Bloodbraid Elf
Boggart Ram-Gang
Double Cleave


So I'm looking to the experienced zoo players that visit this thread often on whether it would be a good idea to playest? I realize that Green Sun's Zenith is pretty damn awesome and all (and I haven't heard of zoo using Glittering Wish before) it at least has a small amount of added flexibility by getting not only creatures, but also potentially relivant spells.

Thank you for any info/viewpoints you share!

Why do you need a toolbox when you should be beating face? The only useful card you have listed is Gaddock Teeg. If you're deadset on making sure you have a Gaddock Teeg game 1, run more or run GSZ. Except for Lightning Helix, none of the rest of the cards you list even make the cut in Zoo, let alone for an additional 2 mana, reveal and sorcery speed.

[Richard Cheese]

The problem with Glittering Wish in Zoo is the problem with a lot of potential cards in Zoo: what do you cut?

[Mr. Safety]

The problem with Glittering Wish in Zoo is the problem with a lot of potential cards in Zoo: what do you cut?

Singletons of multiple creatures/spells:

Qasali Pridemage (play 3)
Lightning Helix (play 2-3)
Knight of the Reliquary (play 3)

That makes room for 3 Glittering Wishes...which could either get those 3 cards (should you decide you need them in your sideboard) OR you can get Vexing Shusher, Guttural Response, or Gaddock Teeg game 1 vs. control and combo. This is my thought process anyways...it's a rather slow way to tutor for silver bullets, but gives the deck a little better chance (concievably) game 1 vs. problematic matchups.

This is all conceptual...I'm looking for feedback from prominant/experienced zoo players. I'm not tied to the idea emotionally or any other way...it's just an idea, one that I'm trying to look at objectively.

[Muradin]

What's your experience in playing Zoo Vs Maverick (GW Stoneforge)? That deck is quite popular all over Europe at the moment and I thought Zoo might be a good counter due to massive removal and Grim Lavamancer. Is the matchup really that good for Zoo or does it stumble against KotR + equipment?

[kiwi]

I have tested the pairing and Its positive for zoo, we have a lot of removal and our guys are bigger, mvp vs maverick Sylvan Library.

[PaRa]

I played Big Punishing Zoo in our small local tournament last weekend.

the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas

Side:

1 Loaming Shaman
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vexing Shusher

Matchups:

Round:1 vs UG Infect 2:0 (recurring Punishing Fire's are just insane vs Infect...)

Round 2: vs Big Zoo 2:0 (was actually a tough battle but him having bad luck in game 2 with his Library)

Round 3: vs Merfolk 2:0 (I just had a nice creature curve and burn for every relevant creature)

Round 4 vs Merfolk 2:1 (Game1: he mulls to 5 - Game 2: he has full board followed by a Perish - Game 3: i get Nacatl and Goyf online and after he lands a Kira my Choke prevents him from casting his Perish again. Karakas + Punishing Fire seal the deal shortly after.

final result: 4:0 (8:1)

I was very impressed by the performance of the deck again. When i remember right i only had to take one mulligan.



@ Muradin: I think this list might be even better vs Maverick due to the recurring Fire's vs "the evil Mutti"

[Richard Cheese]

What's your experience in playing Zoo Vs Maverick (GW Stoneforge)? That deck is quite popular all over Europe at the moment and I thought Zoo might be a good counter due to massive removal and Grim Lavamancer. Is the matchup really that good for Zoo or does it stumble against KotR + equipment?

I lost to it 1-2 last weekend, but theoretically I don't think it's a terrible matchup. Basically both games I lost to Elspeth, KotR, Thrun, and Jitte all hitting play, which is a really annoying combination. I was digging for Path/StP with Library but just couldn't find enough, nor enough burn to put Elspeth away.

[KobeBryan]

How is the matchup against JUNK with zoo?

[trivial_matters]

Not bad I'd say. Requires some tight play though. Hands with more lands are generally better because of Wasteland and Vindicate. Extending into Pernicious Deed should be avoided.

Price of Progress can be a beating for them.

[jnosrati]

So i have a question, has mm had any testing? It seems that with led out of dredge, mm hits every discard outlet. seems good...
Im thinking of running all 1/2 drops, with 3 lavamen, 2 teeg, 0 pop and 3 mm. previously i ran 4 lavamen, 2 pop.
is cutting pop for mm a good call to beat dredge? seems like it can wreck them..

[BantFTW]

@Para, why you win is that you only get good matchups lol...
Those decks aren't really hard to play against with big zoo

and I play mm in my zoo 4x mainboard, it works quite good but didn't been on a tournament with it.
But it gives you more chance against combo and also against all decks, like if they play smt manacost 1 you can counter it. POP is very good buy I would also play it in sideboard or maybe 2 main.

[PaRa]

@Para, why you win is that you only get good matchups lol...
Those decks aren't really hard to play against with big zoo


totally agree with you about good matchups but wasn't this obvious anyway? I actually only posted the results to point out that Big Punishing Zoo is a nice choice in an aggro meta. In Europe a lot of people play Maverick now so this list might get a little more popular.

[KobeBryan]

Any help: I have a very very hard time fighting decks like Sneak Show, Affinity, TES/ANT, and Belcher

I run 3 Gaddock Teegs in the side, but against some of these decks, its a nightmare.

[Richard Cheese]

Storm and Belcher are never going to be good matchups. I've had decent luck with an E. Tutor board to nail decks like Affinity with Null Rod, and Sneak/Show or Natural Order anything with Phyrexian Metamorph.

[KobeBryan]

Storm and Belcher are never going to be good matchups. I've had decent luck with an E. Tutor board to nail decks like Affinity with Null Rod, and Sneak/Show or Natural Order anything with Phyrexian Metamorph.

Oh man. Good thing not too many people play Storm and Belcher now.

[TheWingedOne]

Hey guys, I started playing Zoo recently after messing around with combo elves for a bit. This is the list I am running and would appreciate any feedback. I seem to be doing really well with it, and I rather enjoy it. If you have any advice, that would be great! Thanks!

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Loam Lion


4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library


4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy

[ajfennewald]

you can make storm 50/50 or better but it is totally not worthit as you need like 4 Mbt and 6-8 hate bears. In my experience combining hate bears with Mbt or orims chant works alot better than just one or the other.

[Richard Cheese]

If Maverick gets big in the states, would Flash of Defiance be worth considering in the board?

[trivial_matters]

Hey guys, I started playing Zoo recently after messing around with combo elves for a bit. This is the list I am running and would appreciate any feedback. I seem to be doing really well with it, and I rather enjoy it. If you have any advice, that would be great! Thanks!

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Loam Lion


4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library


4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy

Hello and welcome! Your list seems quite good to me. I don't really have much to comment on.

@Maverick: You don't need narrow cards like that to combat them. Play more Grim Lavamancers and more burn, Ancient Grudge in the sideboard if you're afraid of Stoneforge Mystic. Jitte should be good against them too, although that's a bit risky since they can fetch their own and legend-rule it.

[Oxmo39]

Hi guys! is there an average amount of removals needed in a regular zoo list (not the Big Zoo) ?
I would like to maindeck 2 Price of Progress, but i'm still hesitating about what to remove : critters or removals ? Is there a minimum amount that it is better not to go lower ?

I currently the following removals suite :
4 Lightning bolt
3 Path to exile
3 Lightning helix
2 Chain Lightning

Here's the rest of the list :

20 lands

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Goblin Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kird Ape
2 Sylvan Library

I was thinking to do so -1 chain lightning - 1 kird ape

The meta is composed of merfolks, elves, landstill and junk-variants.
any thoughts or criticisms are welcome!

[lordofthepit]

Hi guys! is there an average amount of removals needed in a regular zoo list (not the Big Zoo) ?
I would like to maindeck 2 Price of Progress, but i'm still hesitating about what to remove : critters or removals ? Is there a minimum amount that it is better not to go lower ?

I currently the following removals suite :
4 Lightning bolt
3 Path to exile
3 Lightning helix
2 Chain Lightning

Here's the rest of the list :

20 lands

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Goblin Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kird Ape
2 Sylvan Library

I was thinking to do so -1 chain lightning - 1 kird ape

The meta is composed of merfolks, elves, landstill and junk-variants.
any thoughts or criticisms are welcome!

Your list looks fine for regular Zoo. Most "normal/small" Zoo builds will want to run 3-4 Paths and a bunch of Bolts/Chains/Helices (plus Lavamancer). If you want to go faster, you might consider removing the Paths entirely and adding Fireblasts and PoPs. Big Zoo builds tend to run fewer removal.

[jnosrati]

could people who play mm tell me about how it has tested? what cards do you play it over in fast zoo? LISTS PLEASE!

[Mr. Safety]

If Maverick gets big in the states, would Flash of Defiance be worth considering in the board?

I have a hard time believing it's better than Naya Charm

[CorpT]

I have a hard time believing it's better than Naya Charm

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about that because neither are playable.

[Mr. Safety]

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about that because neither are playable.

Bingo :wink: And I have laid the Glittering Wish discussion to rest...appreciated your feedback.

[AlexAI]

@jnosrati: I've always had that problem with MM in Zoo. What exactly do you cut? I haven't ran MM Zoo because I haven't been able to answer that with a list I like. It's really list dependent on what to cut since I see it as sort of protection and sort of utility. Running 13+ 1cc guys? Maybe cut 1. Maybe cut to 3 Path. Maybe a burn spell if you're running 11-12 already. Should you run more Knights because you can protect them a little now? Does fast Zoo even want it? I think 3 is the right number if you do.

I've played Cat Sligh with 3 MM since you only have 16 beatsticks and burn slots 22-24 were really weak anyway. I would recommend it if you want to play something Zooish with MM.

My most recent tournament list:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Magma Jet
3 Mental Misstep
2 Forked Bolt

3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire


//Sideboard
2 Serenity
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Serenity is your one stop shop for ruining Chalice/Enchantress shenanigans. The Combo/Dredge hate is there. Vortex/Lavamancer come in against control and are mostly gold. You can replace the Forked Bolts MD with a burn spell of your choice, but I think Magma Jet is too good to cut.

It plays like Zoo for the most part, except your outs to some(maybe all) stuff is basically "Burn the shit out of them." Helps against decks that rely on Deed/Firespout for defense, less good against big guys and Hymn. Combo is better since you can possibly kill T3, but they're still faster than you. Still not a good matchup.

[Mr. Safety]

I fail to see how Magma Jet is better than Sylvan Library...and you don't have any Paths/Swords anywhere in your 75.

[jandax]

It's not better, it's fulfilling a different role in the burn deck than Sylvan does with the zoo deck

[AlexAI]

I fail to see how Magma Jet is better than Sylvan Library...and you don't have any Paths/Swords anywhere in your 75.

Even though the TL;DR version of my post was "Hey, I don't have a MM Zoo list I've felt comfortable with, but here's some suggestions on how to make room for it and a tested list that's a cousin of Zoo that plays MM and a little on how the matchups slightly differ from Zoo," I suppose I'll answer your questions anyway.

Magma Jet and Sylvan Library are not comparable in this deck. Jet is 3 of your 7 ways to kill something at instant speed(without destroying your manabase), while also removing chaff and helping the burn cause mid/late game. Amazing utility while still synergistic. Library is more comparable to Vortex, and Vortex does the job of "hard to deal with game accelerator" better, since the deck has 21 burn spells MD. Library also can't do anything about life gain, which is a bit of a problem sometimes with Cat Sligh.

Path is also not burn. Your answer to big guys(as with most of the things Cat Sligh deals with) is hopefully have dealt enough damage to them to burn them out. Goyf isn't a huge deal, Knight comes out T3 at the earliest, and still can't race you if that's the only problem. The manabase can't support Path since you have to leave a white source open to waste, and that is not a great idea when you're only running 3 actual white sources, all of which can get wasted. To support it you would have to run non-Mountain lands, which leads to Fireblast becoming worse, which leads running Pridemage because it's too good to not run if you can support it, which leads to playing Zoo. That's why I think of Zoo sometimes as "Sligh with specific outs".

Edit: God damn it, jandax. I spend 20 mins on this wall of text and you say what I said in 20 words. Fucking internet.

[Mr. Safety]

:wink: Should have read the line that said 'cat sligh' and noticed the Goblin Guides...I wouldn't have even questioned it had I taken the time to look closer. I suppose I'm still curious (but less so) about the lack of Path/Swords as an answer to non-burnable threats.

EDIT: I'm also sold on the Sulfuric Vortexe's in the sideboard...I don't play cat sligh, but they have proven their worth many times. I've occasionally played up to 4 sb.

EDIT: you explained the lack of Path/Swords well. Wasteland and it's implications show up again...and spot removal is less important than fast damage to the dome FTW. You can add to that list: Swords/Path don't deal with the big bad non-burnable threats that could outrace you anyways like Progenitus and Emrakul, so it's worse than useless there too...because it isn't burn. Well said...

[jandax]

Even though the TL;DR version of my post was...

Edit: God damn it, jandax. I spend 20 mins on this wall of text and you say what I said in 20 words. Fucking internet.


http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgkcc9sqSm1qb6xdzo1_400.gif

[jnosrati]

MainDeck (60)

Creatures
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx

Spells
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Mental Misstep
2 Price of Progress

Lands
2 Plateau
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SIDE
4 surgical extraction
2 tormods crypt
3 Pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 choke
1 krosan grip
1 gaddock teeg


Originally i had cut pop, but i now realize that other than dredge, it hits for 8-10 a lot. Thats great in a sligh list. Its also my out to NO rug, which is a problem.
Maindeck teeg has been my thing for as long as i can remember. Highly recomended. NO, dread return, and JACE, moat, humility, all of stax, elspeth, fow, submerge, ad nauseum, ill gotten gains, etc.
MM is great here, as it protects my lynxes and nacatls turn 1 as well as hitting every dredge target. Dredge is everywhere in Los Angeles.

[jandax]

Why not just play more threats instead of MM?

I mean, counterspells in Zoo?

[Mr. Safety]

I may not be a smart man, but I know what threat density is...But hey, who am I to talk? I suggested Glittering Wish, lol.

@jnostrati: There is a thread in the Developmental decks section called 'Blue Zoo' that i think you should check out. It's an unorthadox zoo list that has a strong blue presence, which makes great use of Mental Misstep (and further bonus cards like Brainstorm and the like) which would be appropriate to learn how Misstep can augment a zoo-like setup.

[jnosrati]

@ Jandax. MM is effectively a threat. When my turn 1 gets countered vs blue decks, i protect it. This gains tempo. Why wait until turn 2 when steppe lynx is much worse and you dont beat for three and play another nacatl when you can just protect it.

@ mr safety. I looked at blue zoo, but its dreadfully slow and inconsistant. also, not fetching basics ever is just bad. In theory it works, but some parts of zoo get nuked by the blue. FOW was just not part of the zoo gameplan. i'm not trying to stall that much. Think about it, 2 teegs vs a fow? Teeg is good... My goal is to distrupt a dredge heavy meta. with mm, i can counter every discard outlet in dredge, and if i am on the play, it is never expected to follow up a nacatl, so they will never draw discard on me.

Overall, it is a beast, allowing me to protect turn 1 steppe lynx(much worse turn 2) and nacatl, gain a whole turn vs dredge at a minimum, and usually take out the pesky tireless tribe, and distrupt all kinds of combo. I tried blue zoo with just daze (because brianstorm and such were really just there for the fow pitch) and 2/2 nacatls were not that fun. Also, daze + lynx was very relevant, but it still was not the same. A resolved wl can really ruin your day, so you need redundance in mana sources, as well as basics for the POP kill, which is imo one of the best cards here. Testing without it proved to be horrible.

@ everyone, i'm editing my above maindeck so i dont repost.

[jandax]

I think you're looking at MM in Zoo too much in a vacuum. Sure, it does protect your spell from a 1cmc spell.

I think you'd be happier just playing through counters instead of around them. For all the decks that aren't going to be countering your stuff, you have extra dudes or burn. It's your deck, have fun, but I doubt you're selling anyone else on MM in Naya Zoo

[stumPen]

I can not believe why you keep discussing about CatZoo/FastZoo how ever you wanna call it. Actually it is out of time but still gains some good rankings because it is easy to handle.

Atm I am playing a BigZoo list which works perfectly against MF, Thres, GW, Painter. Only Combo is a bad Match Up.

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Qasali Prodemage
3x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Chain Lightning

2x Sylvan Library
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Green Sun's Zenith

20 Lands inkl. 1 Dryad Arbor and 2 Wastelands

SB Slots are not fixed exept:

3 Thrun
1 Karakas
2 Jitte

This is working perfect and I have totally no problems with Mental Misstep. Try it!

last 2 Tournaments I went 5. and 4. of ~40

5. because of a loss against Goblins with too much Wastelands and Removal and a loss in the mirror match because that guy topdecked perfectly.

4. because of 2 draws against GW (Sylvan Safekeeper made one game) and Landstill.

[CorpT]

I can not believe why you keep discussing about CatZoo/FastZoo how ever you wanna call it. Actually it is out of time but still gains some good rankings because it is easy to handle.

Atm I am playing a BigZoo list which works perfectly against MF, Thres, GW, Painter. Only Combo is a bad Match Up.

If I took that to my LGS, I would get destroyed. I don't think you can say that BigZoo is definitively better than FastZoo.

I need speed and removal. I race the control decks and back it up with burn and out-removal the tribal decks. I just don't see a BigZoo deck doing well against the majority of the decks I see at my LGS.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Fragmented English

Please use proper grammar and punctuation when posting on The Source. It makes it easier for members to better comprehend your thoughts and provide feedback.

I love Cat Zoo. Seriously Steppe Lynx > Noble Hierarch. It really comes down to play style though. If I wanted to fiddle with mana dorks and Green Sun's Zeniths, I'd play Bant or Maverick.

How's Thrun, the Last Troll working as a 3-of in the board for you? You can tutor it with GSZ so 3 seems excessive. I'd bring it down to 2.

[CorpT]

Please use proper grammar and punctuation when posting on The Source. It makes it easier for members to better comprehend your thoughts and provide feedback.

I love Cat Zoo. Seriously Steppe Lynx > Noble Hierarch. It really comes down to play style though. If I wanted to fiddle with mana dorks and Green Sun's Zeniths, I'd play Bant or Maverick

That's my general feeling as well. If I'm not beating face on turn 2, I want MM and Force backup and probably Natural Order as well.

[jnosrati]

I think you're looking at MM in Zoo too much in a vacuum. Sure, it does protect your spell from a 1cmc spell.

I think you'd be happier just playing through counters instead of around them. For all the decks that aren't going to be countering your stuff, you have extra dudes or burn. It's your deck, have fun, but I doubt you're selling anyone else on MM in Naya Zoo

The purpose of mm is not to protect my 1 drops, its to beat decks like dredge game 1 alongside gaddock teeg, while not really weakening the deck.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The purpose of mm is not to protect my 1 drops, its to beat decks like dredge game 1 alongside gaddock teeg, while not really weakening the deck.

Mental Misstep won't always win games against Dredge with Zoo. Normally they will run out a 1cc spell as bait to be countered.

Grim Lavamancer is decent Dredge hate without being narrow in all other matchups.

Basically what I'm saying is if I wanted to beat Dredge game 1, I'd play a different deck.

[jandax]

I think the take away here is that MM isn't what the strategy needs. If you want to do something about your initial dudes being killed, adopt something along the lines of Green Sun's Zenith, not MM. It replaces a dude that dies, and can go for silver bullets if need be. MM is situational and it weakens the deck.

[stumPen]

@RaNDoMxGeSTuReS:

It would be nice to know which decks you are facing in your LGS. I play against Lands, Team America, Merfolk, Painter, Supreme Blue, Dark Thres, Canadian, Zoo, Goblins, Enchantress, GW and some tier 3 Decks.

I played CatZoo/FastZoo before and saw that batteling GW sucks because they have the bigger dudes. Against control it sucks too because they now have MM to handle the first important pressure (Nacatl, Loam Lion, Lynx). So I tried BigZoo and it was amazing that even a small 3/3 Nacatl can beat Goyfs Ass with exalted Trigger. Also the better Mid/Late Game helps to find Solutions against CBTop oder Landstill.

@Thrun: He is amazing. He beats Lands, Thres, Suprem Blue und other Jace.dec. Especially in those Match Ups I want him. That is why I play 3 because you can even keep a 4 Land + Thrun + XXX hand.

[AznSeal]

Would you recommend playing fast zoo or boros?

[CorpT]

Would you recommend playing fast zoo or boros?

What does giving up Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Sylvan Library, Loam Lion, Kird Ape, Krosan Grip, Green Sun Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Qasali Pridemage gain you?

[jnosrati]

MainDeck (60)

Sideboard
Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx

Spells
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Mental Misstep
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress

Lands
2 Plateau
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SIDE
4 surgical extraction
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 Oblivion Ring


Originally i had cut pop, but i now realize that other than dredge, it hits for 8-10 a lot. Thats great in a sligh list. Its also my out to NO rug, which is a problem.
Maindeck teeg has been my thing for as long as i can remember. Highly recomended. NO, dread return, and JACE, moat, humility, all of stax, elspeth, fow, submerge, ad nauseum, ill gotten gains, etc.
MM is great here, as it protects my lynxes and nacatls turn 1 as well as hitting every dredge target. Dredge is everywhere in Los Angeles.

I got 6th place today with this list. MM was amazing all day, and i think surgical is amazing tech vs dredge, as they cannot hate on me with leyline/grudges.
Round 1 : maverick 2:0
round 2 : merfolk : 2:1 he won game 1 to mana screw, 5 blasts are good
round 3/4 : Tendrils : 0:2 g1 he goes off, i board nothing, game 2 i stick teeg, he wished into grapeshot, and then empty the warrens.
round 3/4 : dredge : he won game 1. i won game 2, and then he slowrolled me, and wasted as much time as he could while i still won game 3. MM + extraction is a boss.
round 5 : 2:1 merfolk again, lost game 1 to bad hands, won game 2/3 with blast
round 6 : no rug. drew into top 8

top 8. played the same guy with no rug. Game 1 I get shit and mulligan. game 2 I strategically keep a one lander with taiga, nacatl, and pop. he has no wl and only nonbasics. I get him to ten, im tapped out, he gets me to 6, i thought i had it, he plays bolt, bolt. 5 duals in play for him. Would have won at upkeep.

Overall, it was a great day, and im confident that i win like 80-90% of dredge mu's. I expected a lot of dredge, and there wasnt much, and expected 1-2 ant as expected. maybe 4 dredge and 2 ant/belch overall. i hapened to play both. Deciding to basically scoop the ant mu (other than mainboard misstep and teeg) was a meta call. glad it worked out.

Overall happy to have 2 new savanahs, and I hope I can convince you to not just right off misstep, as it protected steppe lynxes, nacatls, etc all day, and killed a dredge player that was cheating under my nose. I'm very happy.

[lordofthepit]

Overall happy to have 2 new savanahs, and I hope I can convince you to not just right off misstep, as it protected steppe lynxes, nacatls, etc all day, and killed a dredge player that was cheating under my nose. I'm very happy.

What kind of cheating are you talking about?

[jnosrati]

just slowplay. rumor about somthing else, but i didnt see it myself

[lordofthepit]

After bringing in 4 graveyard hate cards and possibly 2 Gaddock Teeg for the Dredge matchup, would you bring in any Red Elemental Blasts to hit Careful Study, Breakthrough, and Chain of Vapor? (I would be taking out Qasali Pridemages in this case.)

Seems weak to me because you have to keep mana open early, but it's something I've considered.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

@RaNDoMxGeSTuReS:

It would be nice to know which decks you are facing in your LGS. I play against Lands, Team America, Merfolk, Painter, Supreme Blue, Dark Thres, Canadian, Zoo, Goblins, Enchantress, GW and some tier 3 Decks.

I played CatZoo/FastZoo before and saw that batteling GW sucks because they have the bigger dudes. Against control it sucks too because they now have MM to handle the first important pressure (Nacatl, Loam Lion, Lynx). So I tried BigZoo and it was amazing that even a small 3/3 Nacatl can beat Goyfs Ass with exalted Trigger. Also the better Mid/Late Game helps to find Solutions against CBTop oder Landstill.

@Thrun: He is amazing. He beats Lands, Thres, Suprem Blue und other Jace.dec. Especially in those Match Ups I want him. That is why I play 3 because you can even keep a 4 Land + Thrun + XXX hand.

I play in a combo infested meta where playing Zoo is like sitting on a fiery hot poker.

[trivial_matters]

After bringing in 4 graveyard hate cards and possibly 2 Gaddock Teeg for the Dredge matchup, would you bring in any Red Elemental Blasts to hit Careful Study, Breakthrough, and Chain of Vapor? (I would be taking out Qasali Pridemages in this case.)

Seems weak to me because you have to keep mana open early, but it's something I've considered.

I normally board out Qasali Pridemage first against Dredge. What cards are you boarding out for the graveyard hate and Teeg?
If you're boarding too much the danger is that you weaken your deck.

I agree that keeping mana open early is not at all what you want to be doing.

AFAIK, most Dredge players side out some number of Breakthroughs game 2, leaving Careful Study and perhaps Chain, which I don't think is played so much right now (could be wrong, although I think Nature's Claim is played more).

[jandax]

Just consider what they'll be bringing in:

Instant speed Artifact/Enchantment removal, and/or some Bounce like Chain of Vapors. They'll be biding their time before EoT removal on Crypt/Teeg/etc then they go do their thing.

When considered in that light, cards like Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre have more appeal. If they get named on a blind Therapy, you're playing against (1) someone who knows your sideboard (2) a stone cold master and are about to lose anyways. Even nabing the first GGT with SE/FM/Crypt/etc can be enough to keep them off of a graveyard and buy time to burn them out.

I'd still leave in Path for their DR bombs, Ichorid, GGT. Qasali PM is easily first to go, as well as 2cmc spells like Lightning Helix/Price of Progress. That should free enough slots to keep the deck consistent, and over all as powerful as the maindeck is.

[trivial_matters]

Path to Exile definitely stays in.

You forgot Ancient Grudge, which is still I think the no. 1 hate used by Dredge. Most of the time, it gets flashedbacked from the graveyard though.

[jandax]

Well, Grudge is instant speed artifact removal...

The thing is, if they're siding into removal, isn't it better to blank it by not running artifact/enchantment GY hate for more pinpoint hate like Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre?

That was my point, really. Not many decks can stop a nut draw from dredge, however it is suceptable to variance like any combo deck, and given practice and the right sideboard cards, Zoo has a fighting chance against combo.

[lordofthepit]

I normally board out Qasali Pridemage first against Dredge. What cards are you boarding out for the graveyard hate and Teeg?

I play a pretty unconventional Punishing Fires Zoo deck with 22 lands and 4 Noble Hierarchs, with Mental Missteps, so the cards I board out are going to be a bit different.

I generally take out two Elspeths, two pridemages, and two basics, for 4 gravehate (including a Bog to tutor up with my Knights) and two Teegs. This puts me at 21 lands and 4 Hierarchs, which isn't too greedy yet, considering I want to race Dredge and since they also have no way to manascrew me.

I find it's important to be able to blow up your creatures if necessary to pop their Bridges, so I like keeping some Pridemages in. My Hierarchs, Pridemages, and Teegs (8 total) can be hit by Bolt or Punishing Fires; a fully-powered Nacatl can be only hit by Bolt. Probably a bit less ideal than in a smaller Zoo list, but then again, bolting your own dudes is not a great position either.


When considered in that light, cards like Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre have more appeal. If they get named on a blind Therapy, you're playing against (1) someone who knows your sideboard (2) a stone cold master and are about to lose anyways. Even nabing the first GGT with SE/FM/Crypt/etc can be enough to keep them off of a graveyard and buy time to burn them out.

I used to run Macabres as my only gravehate when Survival was around, but it felt so underpowered against Dredge. In a bigger meta, I would run Surgical Extraction as my only gravehate, since it's better against most opponents (solid against Dredge, excellent against Storm and Loam, occasionally nice against random decks with few win conditions), but at a local store where I frequently run into the same Dredge players, I keep a mixture of hate.

[jnosrati]

I normally board out Qasali Pridemage first against Dredge. What cards are you boarding out for the graveyard hate and Teeg?
If you're boarding too much the danger is that you weaken your deck.

I agree that keeping mana open early is not at all what you want to be doing.

AFAIK, most Dredge players side out some number of Breakthroughs game 2, leaving Careful Study and perhaps Chain, which I don't think is played so much right now (could be wrong, although I think Nature's Claim is played more).

I board out goyf and POP all day vs dredge; goyf is worse b/c were nuking graves, and pridemage is better cuz we can sac it if we have to. i think i board out library as well.
The usual game plan for dredge sideboarding is to take out 1 draw spell, 1 therapy, 1 ichorid, and one DR target for 3 grudges and an ancestors chosen. usually the draw spell is careful study at least if youre playin missteps

[jnosrati]

Well, Grudge is instant speed artifact removal...

The thing is, if they're siding into removal, isn't it better to blank it by not running artifact/enchantment GY hate for more pinpoint hate like Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre?

That was my point, really. Not many decks can stop a nut draw from dredge, however it is suceptable to variance like any combo deck, and given practice and the right sideboard cards, Zoo has a fighting chance against combo.

also, they have leyline, which protects them from crypts. i know that the instant speed extractions are great, as they cant do anything about it, but i am not sure about macabre in addition to it vs the usual crypts. at this point i think i might switch to macabre, as we only really need to remove their turn 1 dredgers, but I am not positive about it. I guess it hits loams as well.

[trivial_matters]

@lordofthepit: Okay, Elspeth I agree should be boarded out. As for the lands, I think one land less won't matter much (with Elspeth out too). So far so good. I still don't see how Pridemages helps though; what will you target with his ability? Unless I'm missing something there's only Sylvan Library...And if you play any equipment you probably won't want to destroy it.

@jnosrati: Same question as above concerning the Cat Wizard. And I'd probably never board out Tarmogoyf against any deck.

[jnosrati]

@lordofthepit: Okay, Elspeth I agree should be boarded out. As for the lands, I think one land less won't matter much (with Elspeth out too). So far so good. I still don't see how Pridemages helps though; what will you target with his ability? Unless I'm missing something there's only Sylvan Library...And if you play any equipment you probably won't want to destroy it.

@jnosrati: Same question as above concerning the Cat Wizard. And I'd probably never board out Tarmogoyf against any deck.

Why not. without the grave, all dredge has is narcomoebas that eat bolts, tribes that eat paths, and imps that dont block. making sure bridge is out> 1 power.

[boneclub24]

just dropped from the MTG Legacy tourney. I beat Fish and Reanimator, and lost to Affinty and what I think is TES. Can't be sure on the last, though. It was awhile ago.

Anyway, list:

Land: 19
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures: 22
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells: 19
2 Sylvan Library
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard: 15
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Path to Exile
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
2 Price of Progress

I dropped after losing to Affinity 1-2. Game 3 I mulled to 4 (All of them were no-landers :\) and he got 2 Cranial Plating and tons of dudes to equip it to.
I dead drew Knight too much, though. I would definitely cut back one next time.

[troopatroop]

just dropped from the MTG Legacy tourney. I beat Fish and Reanimator, and lost to Affinty and what I think is TES. Can't be sure on the last, though. It was awhile ago.

Anyway, list:

Land: 19
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures: 22
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells: 19
2 Sylvan Library
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard: 15
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Path to Exile
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
2 Price of Progress

I dropped after losing to Affinity 1-2. Game 3 I mulled to 4 (All of them were no-landers :\) and he got 2 Cranial Plating and tons of dudes to equip it to.
I dead drew Knight too much, though. I would definitely cut back one next time.

Well when you're playing 19 land, you're gonna not draw them sometimes. GSZ with no Dryad arbor as well?

[lordofthepit]

@lordofthepit: Okay, Elspeth I agree should be boarded out. As for the lands, I think one land less won't matter much (with Elspeth out too). So far so good. I still don't see how Pridemages helps though; what will you target with his ability? Unless I'm missing something there's only Sylvan Library...And if you play any equipment you probably won't want to destroy it.

@jnosrati: Same question as above concerning the Cat Wizard. And I'd probably never board out Tarmogoyf against any deck.

Pridemages don't help except as a 2/2 exalted dude on offense, and as a creature for me to burn with Punishing Fires on "defense" (to pop their bridges). You're correct that they never present me with any targets (unless they're terrible at play Pithing Needle and/or Leyline of Sanctity), and I don't run any artifacts or enchantments either. These cats certainly aren't ideal, but the next card in my sideboard would be red blasts, which we have already established as bad; or playing a 22nd/23rd land, which seems weaker than GW 2/2 Exalted.

@jnosrati: What legal targets do you have for Qasali Pridemage's ability? I'm never able to sacrifice him, only burn him with a Zombie creating trigger on the stack to wipe out their bridges.

[jnosrati]

Often, leyline. which is relevant b/c i have crypts and burns that i like to hit them with. can you not do it with no target? Noob moment...

[randomly.anonymous]

Pretty sure you need a valid target to activate the ability. Kinda like how you can't cast naturalize for shitsngiggles when there's no legal target.

[jnosrati]

well in that case, leylines, and if I have to, libraries i guess. Id rather lose my library than the game, the size of creatures is not very relevant in this mu, as all of their creatures are bad without grave plays.

[kabards]

we will gonna be having a new warlord in zoo deck.. i think grand abolisher would take a spot in our zoo decks =)

[Machahiko]

3 mana to give wild nacatl, steppe lynx, qasali pridemage and loam lion +1/+1? Or instead, play Terravore or Knight of the Reliquary who will just bash their faces in, hard. Wild Nacatl, Loam Lion and Steppe Lynx get removed anyways or they have already most likely lost the game. When topdecking you want to get Knight of the Reliquary (extremely good threat on her own, doesn't need anything more than herself to beat face) instead of getting some poor lord who doesn't do anything himself, but instead requires you to have a very strong board presence.

[trivial_matters]

@lordofthepit: I agree with your reasoning there. Your options are limited. On a side note, have you tried playing an Enlightened Tutor sideboard (strictly in Big Zoo)? The problem I see is that it makes a slow deck (in comparison to normal Zoo) even slower, however the strength of being able to tutor up what you need might be worth it.

Concerning M12, I don't think there are any cards that are playable in any Zoo variant. This deck does not want Grand Abolisher.

[jnosrati]

the ww 2/2 creature has some sideboard merit i think

[jandax]

It's not replacing anything that already isn't proven. Kinda glad not every set comes out that hands Legacy decks a sharp new toy.

The last thing this deck got was from Alara block with Wild Nacatl, and KotR. What's going to be better than the best one drop and three drop this deck can manage?


Cat Scratch Fever
Instant - W
As an aditional cost, sacrifice a Cat creature you control.

Cat Scratch Fever deals 5 damage to target creature or player.

I dunno, given all the Cats Zoo runs (Nacatl, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, Qasali Pridemage), a Goblin Grenade reprint might be actually good for the deck. There is no merrit to this post.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

It's not replacing anything that already isn't proven. Kinda glad not every set comes out that hands Legacy decks a sharp new toy.

The last thing this deck got was from Alara block with Wild Nacatl, and KotR. What's going to be better than the best one drop and three drop this deck can manage?


Cat Scratch Fever
Instant - W
As an aditional cost, sacrifice a Cat creature you control.

Cat Scratch Fever deals 5 damage to target creature or player.

I dunno, given all the Cats Zoo runs (Nacatl, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, Qasali Pridemage), a Goblin Grenade reprint might be actually good for the deck. There is no merrit to this post.

I think Coat of Arms is strictly better.

[jandax]

Were it a 2/2 for 2

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Were it a 2/2 for 2

You mean a 2/1 right? It can't be a 2/2 because than it'd be a bear, which would break Zoo's cat philosophy.

It has to at least be a Savannah Lions or Isamaru.

[lordofthepit]

@lordofthepit: I agree with your reasoning there. Your options are limited. On a side note, have you tried playing an Enlightened Tutor sideboard (strictly in Big Zoo)? The problem I see is that it makes a slow deck (in comparison to normal Zoo) even slower, however the strength of being able to tutor up what you need might be worth it.

I used Enlightened Tutor sideboard occasionally with Big Zoo, but I used it a lot in normal Zoo when I used to play that. I like it for Dredge, Storm, and 43 Lands because you can represent a lot of sideboard options with relatively few cards, and I imagine it'd be pretty solid against Affinity and Forgemaster combo too (tried it once recently, but never drew my hate).

However, I absolutely hate it when I expect a lot of blue decks (as I usually do), since the Enlightened Tutor package takes up a lot of space for cards that I'd otherwise devote to cards like REB, Krosan Grip, etc. Furthermore, the potential to get blown out by a counterspell on a two-for-one--especially during the height of Counterbalance--was too dangerous.

[jandax]

You mean a 2/1 right? It can't be a 2/2 because than it'd be a bear, which would break Zoo's cat philosophy.

It has to at least be a Savannah Lions or Isamaru.

PM is a 2/2 for 2... but yeah, same flavor, different cone

[Humphrey]

Im coming from the Maverick Thread since that deck isnt straight forward enough for me. Im thinking about merging the 2 decks (Mav and Zoo). Anybody tested SFM and Wastelands in Zoo yet?
My list im starting to test looks like this:

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills

SB: 3 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: Path to Exile

[from Cairo]

I'm not feeling Batterskull in the above list. With no counters, Mother of Runes, Aether Vials, etc - you don't have any way to push an active Stoneforge Mystic on board. Broadcasting Batterskull really leaves you open to getting stuck with it bricked in your hand and taking a sizable tempo hit.

Honestly, if going the Big Zoo route I like the stock approach of 2 Library, 2 Jitte, 2 Elspeth rather than 3 SFM, 3 Equips. SFM packages - and especially Batterskull - really shine against match ups that Zoo's already pretty favorable against and it's pretty mana intensive.

[jnosrati]

I want to talk about NO rug. this deck beat me out of top 8 and i think we have a bit of trouble here. they run bolts to kill teegs as well as their own lavamancer, dazes, and mm's. also, they board in jitte and more lavamen. This is a pretty rouch one for us I think, and I am starting to be scared of this deck. other than play more teegs, what other outs do we have? is the only answer to kill shit? protection from progenitus with that enchantment? theres gotta be something better

[David Kaplan]

Hi. I have been following the Zoo and Burn threads for the last few months. I played competitively in the Junior Super Series tournaments 10 years ago in New York, slowed down in high school and my last tournament was GP Boston 2005. I got the itch a few months to play again, didn't own a single card. Bought Patrick Sullivan's entire Burn deck and enjoyed playing at a local tournament.

10 proxies are allowed. I picked up the Zoo conversion kit and prefer the fast version. My 10 proxies are 6 duals and 4 Tarmogoyfs. I do not like Steppe Lynx and would prefer Loam Lion, but feel a Savannah would throw things off, as my sac lands are Mesa, Tarn and Mire.

Right now, I look like this:

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf (Proxy)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Path to Exile

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
3 Taiga (Proxy)
3 Plateau (Proxy)

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Searing Blaze

The metagame is a quality mix: Merfolk, ANT, Deadguy Ale, Big Zoo, U/W Landstill, Team America, High Tide.

I do not have access to Wastelands and I do not like Rift Bolt so much, so I went with the 3rd fireblast, 3 PoPs and 1 PtE compared to Sullivan.

Skyshroud Elite, Isamaru/Savannah Lions, Ghazban Ogre/Wild Dogs all came up as 2+ power for 1 mana replacements for Lynx. Elite seems like an unnecessary risk, Ogre/Dogs could turn a Burn/Mirror match from even to lopsided with a bolt on their side. Savannah Lions has 1 toughness and Isamaru still only has 2 and I would not play more than 1 or 2 in the deck due to Legendary, regardless.

Is Rift Bolt a replacement? I like 23 creatures to overload a single mental misstep.

Thoughts are appreciated.

[lordofthepit]

Hi. I have been following the Zoo and Burn threads for the last few months. I played competitively in the Junior Super Series tournaments 10 years ago in New York, slowed down in high school and my last tournament was GP Boston 2005. I got the itch a few months to play again, didn't own a single card. Bought Patrick Sullivan's entire Burn deck and enjoyed playing at a local tournament.

10 proxies are allowed. I picked up the Zoo conversion kit and prefer the fast version. My 10 proxies are 6 duals and 4 Tarmogoyfs. I do not like Steppe Lynx and would prefer Loam Lion, but feel a Savannah would throw things off, as my sac lands are Mesa, Tarn and Mire.

Right now, I look like this:

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf (Proxy)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Path to Exile

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
3 Taiga (Proxy)
3 Plateau (Proxy)

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Searing Blaze

The metagame is a quality mix: Merfolk, ANT, Deadguy Ale, Big Zoo, U/W Landstill, Team America, High Tide.

I do not have access to Wastelands and I do not like Rift Bolt so much, so I went with the 3rd fireblast, 3 PoPs and 1 PtE compared to Sullivan.

Skyshroud Elite, Isamaru/Savannah Lions, Ghazban Ogre/Wild Dogs all came up as 2+ power for 1 mana replacements for Lynx. Elite seems like an unnecessary risk, Ogre/Dogs could turn a Burn/Mirror match from even to lopsided with a bolt on their side. Savannah Lions has 1 toughness and Isamaru still only has 2 and I would not play more than 1 or 2 in the deck due to Legendary, regardless.

Is Rift Bolt a replacement? I like 23 creatures to overload a single mental misstep.

Thoughts are appreciated.

Hey David, were you a Sligh player back when Type 1 was popular? I remember that The Mana Drain adepts would mention you as an example of how an unpowered Sligh deck could beat fully powered Keeper decks. Not sure if it's you, or how you did it, but big props if so. :)

My personal preference has evolved from the Fast Zoo builds to the Big Zoo builds, but I think in modern Legacy, if you're going to play with 12 fetchlands, lots of burn, and "bad" late game creatures like Goblin Guide, you're going to want the early damage potential of Steppe Lynx. "Moderate" Zoo builds will often run Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx, but none of them opt for any of the (10+ year old) 2-powered one-drops you mentioned as alternatives to Lynx, since creature power creep has left them in the dust. All of them lack the explosive power of Lynx, and neither of them are as consistent as Ape/Lion (smaller ass, dependent on opponent's manabase/life total, etc.). If you want to consider a more normal Zoo build, you gain access to Qasali Pridemage and a few copies of Knight of the Reliquary, but if your looking to race, I'd just sleeve up those Lynxes and start burning face.

[jnosrati]

Can we make a list of the upside of path? I keep noticing that i dont know very many bad matchups where i need to path a creature that i cant bolt. (or chain)
wht are our trgets for path that are un boltable?
stax deck stuff, KOR, tombstalker....theres gotta be more....
how has -1 or -2 path done for you guys
I feel like its most relevant against decks like bant and maerick with KOR, but arent those already good MU's?

also, for sb, thought on breath of darigaz? it hits empty the warrens tokens as well as random elves, etc, and can double as a finisher. even the 1 damage is relevant

[CorpT]

Can we make a list of the upside of path? I keep noticing that i dont know very many bad matchups where i need to path a creature that i cant bolt. (or chain)
wht are our trgets for path that are un boltable?
stax deck stuff, KOR, tombstalker....theres gotta be more....
how has -1 or -2 path done for you guys
I feel like its most relevant against decks like bant and maerick with KOR, but arent those already good MU's?

also, for sb, thought on breath of darigaz? it hits empty the warrens tokens as well as random elves, etc, and can double as a finisher. even the 1 damage is relevant

Three paths is generally fine, with 1 more in the board.

There are quite a few creatures you need to Path:
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Knight of the Reliquary
Countryside Crusher
Batterskull Germ Token
Master of Etherium
Myr Enforcer

The reason to run Path is because these will really shut you down. It's not just that these are the only ones that need Path for removal, it's that you need a good mix and quantity of Instant speed removal to push attackers through. Let's say you're not worried about Thombstalkers, Crushers, Masters and Enforcers. Ok. But if you cut out 3 key pieces of removal, you have a better chance of not being able to push your creatures through even smaller creatures.

Much of this depends on the rest of your deck, but if you cut Paths and your opponent has any creature with a Jitte on it, you want to kill it. It doesn't matter if a bolt will do it, you just need some type of removal. And if you don't have enough removal in your deck....

tl;dr: In addition to the creatures that can only be removed with Path/Swords, there is also an issue of ensuring a critical mass of instant speed removal.

[Richard Cheese]

Also Ichorid, and possibly Abyssal Persecutor/Phyrexian Obliterator, although you aren't likely to see either of those two very often. Personally I run 4 main, and two StP in the board. Opposing fatties are just bad news.

[CorpT]

Also Ichorid, and possibly Abyssal Persecutor/Phyrexian Obliterator, although you aren't likely to see either of those two very often. Personally I run 4 main, and two StP in the board. Opposing fatties are just bad news.

Good points. Obliterator is more common than Persecutor, but RFGing rather than bolting creatures is very relevant in the Dredge MU, not just Ichorid.

A lot of this does come down to the particular build too. A burn-heavy Patrick Sullivan style Zoo has less need of Path than a creature heavier build.

[from Cairo]

Has Tin Street Hooligan been (re)visited as a candidate for this deck in the Artifact heavy metagame we seem to be dealing with? Batterskull, Jitte, Aether Vial, Moxen, CotV, Affinity, Meandeck MUD, various combos (LED/Chrome Mox, Painter/Grind, Orb/Monolith), etc.

It seems like it would be fairly solid to have more Qasali Pridemages. Thoughts?

[BantFTW]

Also if you get landproblems, you can PTE your own creature to get land :)

[Seraph2k]

I play a pair of Tin Street hooligan and he is amazing due to the fact that nearly every opponent runs SFM and Batterskull/Jitte/Swords. But I think two are enough, but as I said very good.

[Richard Cheese]

I think Ancient Grudge is better. Sure there's no body attached, but it's Instant, and you get to use it twice, which really puts pressure on counter-heavy strategies. Also, having one sitting in your graveyard forces the opponent to make tougher decisions, which is usually a good thing.

[from Cairo]

I think Ancient Grudge is better. Sure there's no body attached, but it's Instant, and you get to use it twice, which really puts pressure on counter-heavy strategies. Also, having one sitting in your graveyard forces the opponent to make tougher decisions, which is usually a good thing.

I agree Ancient Grudge is better Artifact hate, but I can't see running it main deck. Occasionally it's just a blank. Tin Street Hooligan I feel like could be a defensible 1-2 of MD in the current meta, it's always a body at the absolute least. Sorry I guess my earlier post didn't specify that I was thinking it could be run main.

[jnosrati]

@ richard cheese and from cairo
what are your metas? I dont see the need to have even 4 pridemages

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I play Pridemage as a 4-of. I could never imagine playing any less.

[Benjammn]

Until the meta proves otherwise, I've switched my Grips to Ancient Grudges. There is no Counterbalance, Enchantress is always small, and X-Still decks packing Humility and/or Dueling Grounds aren't big either and the one enchantment we would want it against doesn't care about removal (Hive Mind). SFM decks, Affinity, Painted Grindstone...all of these decks either demand multiple answers or have counterspells. While Grip dodges them, Grudge essentially does too and when it isn't countered, it sure screws up their next plays. If the meta shifts around I could see changing it, but for now Zoo SBs should have 2-4 Anicient Grudge and 2-3 Pyroblast. My list has SFM in it, so my SB looked like this at Baltimore:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 SFM
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Thrun
2 Teeg

Not sure what I would change yet. It is meta dependent really, but this SB shores up SFM decks, Affinity, NO Bant/RUG, Show and Tell decks, and slow Ux control decks (and more incidental hate for Goblins and Merfolk), most of the popular decks going into Baltimore..

My current/Baltimore list: http://deckbox.org/sets/61221

[BantFTW]

Okay, many decks play artifacts that's true, but why would you play removal??
You got 4 qasali's and if there artifacts 4 removal is enough I think :)
Ancient grudge doesn't do anything and tin street holigan isn't strong either so^^
I just think 4 qasali is just enough...

[BantFTW]

Okay, many decks play artifacts that's true, but why would you play removal??
You got 4 qasali's and if there artifacts 4 removal is enough I think :)
Ancient grudge doesn't do anything and tin street holigan isn't strong either so^^
I just think 4 qasali is just enough...

[Mr. Safety]

I think Ancient Grudge is better. Sure there's no body attached, but it's Instant, and you get to use it twice, which really puts pressure on counter-heavy strategies. Also, having one sitting in your graveyard forces the opponent to make tougher decisions, which is usually a good thing.

It's a minor note, but to add to that, if you get Hymn'd and Grudge ends up getting canned, you still have it available for :g:.

I can't imagine playing more than 2 artifact hates in my sideboard considering 4 Pridemages main (and I think that 4 is the right number)...if I'm expecting a lot of the new crop of Affinity decks, I'm probably going to lean towards playing Meltdown in the sideboard. It can be absurd how much you blow up for a simple :1::r: with Meltdown. Even playing it for just :r: pretty much demolishes their mana base.

[Richard Cheese]

Okay, many decks play artifacts that's true, but why would you play removal??
You got 4 qasali's and if there artifacts 4 removal is enough I think :)
Ancient grudge doesn't do anything and tin street holigan isn't strong either so^^
I just think 4 qasali is just enough...

My friend Affinity would like a word with you.

[Serbitar]

And so would Stoneforge Mystic and MUD, I guess ^^

[BantFTW]

Lol not seeing much affinity so idk :)

[David Kaplan]

Hey David, were you a Sligh player back when Type 1 was popular? I remember that The Mana Drain adepts would mention you as an example of how an unpowered Sligh deck could beat fully powered Keeper decks. Not sure if it's you, or how you did it, but big props if so. :)

My personal preference has evolved from the Fast Zoo builds to the Big Zoo builds, but I think in modern Legacy, if you're going to play with 12 fetchlands, lots of burn, and "bad" late game creatures like Goblin Guide, you're going to want the early damage potential of Steppe Lynx. "Moderate" Zoo builds will often run Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx, but none of them opt for any of the (10+ year old) 2-powered one-drops you mentioned as alternatives to Lynx, since creature power creep has left them in the dust. All of them lack the explosive power of Lynx, and neither of them are as consistent as Ape/Lion (smaller ass, dependent on opponent's manabase/life total, etc.). If you want to consider a more normal Zoo build, you gain access to Qasali Pridemage and a few copies of Knight of the Reliquary, but if your looking to race, I'd just sleeve up those Lynxes and start burning face.

I did run Sligh in T1 a few years back. Good times. Legacy seems like a broader format now.

I ran the above list at a local 15 man tournament this weekend. Beat NO-RUG, Goblins, Big Zoo and drew with Bant.

Very happy with the card choices. Would cut the 3rd mountain for a 13th sac land if I had it. The red blasts and grudges sat on the side as the Merfolk and U/W control decks did not do well. I could see cutting a pyroblast for a 2nd searing blaze, otherwise I really liked the 75.

[CorpT]

So Caleb has shown that Blue Zoo is possible. Has anyone tried a Dark Zoo lately? Dark Confidant seems like a pretty solid card to get into Black for. Not sure if there is anything else in Black worth running, but it's possible. Anyone else try it yet?

[lordofthepit]

So Caleb has shown that Blue Zoo is possible. Has anyone tried a Dark Zoo lately? Dark Confidant seems like a pretty solid card to get into Black for. Not sure if there is anything else in Black worth running, but it's possible. Anyone else try it yet?

I looked into that last year but discarded the idea (as did others). Objectively, you get a better deck, but you're straining your manabase. Ostensibly, Bob allows you to refill your hand quickly, but I'm not sure this is the right metagame for it with lots of Bobs, Mystics, and Cliques making cheap removal spells more popular. Another bummer is that it's vulnerable to the same sweepers that Zoo traditionally is weak too, unlike other sources of card advantage (Jace, Elspeth). You can argue that in some sense, being forced to play a 4th color is straining on your manabase just like running 4-drops are.

If I were to go back to Dark Zoo though, I'd probably want to play more burn to take advantage of the card advantage from Bob.

Anyone have an opinion on REB vs. Choke in the sideboard? The former seems much better against Merfolk and most blue combo (Painter's Stone), but the latter much better against slower Standstill decks, Team America, and others.

[jnosrati]

reb is for show and tell
choke is for uw batterskull and landstill
teeg is a beast, play him in the main.
grudge is teck vs batterskull and landstill, also grip
play lots of blasts for show and tell, cuz it's your only hope if they have hive mind

Any thoughts on choke vs grip in the board? Does choke win the u/w stoneforge mu? Im considering removing grips for chokes.

Capitalization and punctuation are absolutely required when posting on these boards. Unless you're writing a haiku, use them. -zilla

[CorpT]

You guys might want to give it a try. The mana base is the hardest part about it, but Black opens you up to some great sideboard options and makes you very solid against some of the previously tougher matchups.

This is what I ran tonight:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 Land

It's like a Sylvan that attacks.

[lordofthepit]

You guys might want to give it a try. The mana base is the hardest part about it, but Black opens you up to some great sideboard options and makes you very solid against some of the previously tougher matchups.

This is what I ran tonight:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 Land

It's like a Sylvan that attacks.

Can I see your manabase? Dark Zoo is something I want to explore at some point, although right now, I might be going with an entirely different deck. I do think I experiment with Dark Zoo before I played Blue Zoo though, since the best reason to run Blue (in Zoo) doesn't actually require blue mana (Mental Misstep).

[CorpT]

Can I see your manabase? Dark Zoo is something I want to explore at some point, although right now, I might be going with an entirely different deck. I do think I experiment with Dark Zoo before I played Blue Zoo though, since the best reason to run Blue (in Zoo) doesn't actually require blue mana (Mental Misstep).

Well, honestly, I was hoping to see some other ideas for a mana base first before ruining them with mine. Not that I think mine is the greatest or anything, but I'd like some unbiased ideas. If you have some ideas, scratch them down before looking at my mess.

In white text below.

So...

It has varied a lot. It's easily the most difficult part. My basic idea is that I want Taigas and Scrublands to do the heavy lifting. I have nothing that needs BW or RG together. The other necessity is a lot of Red. The color/land relevant spells are:
Nacatl: RGW
Kird Ape: RG
Lightning Helix: RW
Qasali Pridemage: GW

After that, it's a lot of Red for Chains, Bolts and Grim. Thus:

3 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath

I think that's close to what I'll be running at GenCon. Subject to change if anyone has a better idea.

[trivial_matters]

Here's my suggestion (not tested):

2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
11 Fetches
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain

I think two black producing lands are enough for such a small splash. Basics can be very important.

[CorpT]

I think part of that depends on your sideboard too. I would probably run 2x Scrubland before 1x Badlands though. Scrubland just seems more important because it goes so much better with Taiga. I'm also running more White than some with Lightning Helix and SFM.

The problem I found with basics was just drawing them. There were few things worse than an opening hand with basics that were off-color. That's why I went with such a high Fetch count. Getting that first turn perfect land is very important.

[lordofthepit]

I think part of that depends on your sideboard too. I would probably run 2x Scrubland before 1x Badlands though. Scrubland just seems more important because it goes so much better with Taiga. I'm also running more White than some with Lightning Helix and SFM.

The problem I found with basics was just drawing them. There were few things worse than an opening hand with basics that were off-color. That's why I went with such a high Fetch count. Getting that first turn perfect land is very important.

I think it might just be worthwhile to go with no basics if you need to support four colors.

Especially if your basic is a mountain, since that is absolutely useless against Blood Moon. If you let the Wastelock engine get online, you've probably lost anyway (and it isn't super popular). Back to Basics sees some play, but hopefully you'll have enough pressure on board by that point. It's played seldomly enough that I'd take my chances being able to support my color; and besides, even if Back to Basics did resolve, and all you had was a basic Mountain with weak board presence, you've probably still lost.

[CorpT]

I think it might just be worthwhile to go with no basics if you need to support four colors.

Especially if your basic is a mountain, since that is absolutely useless against Blood Moon. If you let the Wastelock engine get online, you've probably lost anyway (and it isn't super popular). Back to Basics sees some play, but hopefully you'll have enough pressure on board by that point. It's played seldomly enough that I'd take my chances being able to support my color; and besides, even if Back to Basics did resolve, and all you had was a basic Mountain with weak board presence, you've probably still lost.

That's a good point. I was planing to run Surgical Extraction in the board anyway. Back to Basics would be bad, but not the worst. Blood Moon would be... pretty tragic.

[Solaran_X]

5-3 last night at the SCG Legacy Open in Pittsburgh, coming back from a 0-2 start. My list was a modified Sullivan Zoo.

4x Arid Mesa
1x Forest (my 61st card - didn't want to lose Apes and Lions to a Wasted Taiga)
3x Plateau
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Kird Ape
4x Loam Lion
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Wild Nacatl

2x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
1x Sylvan Library

23 lands, 27 1-drops, 5 2-drops, 4 3-drops (technically 1-drops when Suspended), and 2 6-drops/freebies (I did hardcast Fireblast once for the win). I went for the fastest Zoo I could muster, Mental Misstep be damned (4 Mental Missteps versus 27 1-drops...not too good for the Missteps!).

Round 1: 1-2 against Affinity. Won Game 2 off a sided Qasali Pridemage on his first Master of Etherium. Lost Game 3 when I had him down to 1 off of a Goblin Guide and Tarmogoyf (he had a Chalice at 1 on turn 2, and then nothing for a while after I wasted one of his two lands and he didn't get another land forever).
Round 2: 0-2 against Reanimator. It's Reanimator...what can Zoo do against Blazing Archon reanimated twice in Game 1 and a Sphinx that was protected from Path to Exile by a Mental Misstep?
Round 3: 2-0 against Painter. Painter isn't so strong when the Servant gets destroyed by each of the 14 main deck burn spells I ran, and Game 2's opening hand has three Wastelands and all three destroy his first three land drops while I never missed a land drop and he did.
Round 4: No idea what this opponent played. He showed up late for a game loss, mulled to 5, and then conceded and dropped. Pretty fast win...won before I even played a land.
Round 5: 2-0 against Merfolk. Turn 1 unanswered Lavamancer Game 1 kept his board clear, and a hard cast Fireblast won that game. Game 2 was a bit more epic. Got him to 7. Swung in with a fat Goyf and an online Loam Lion. He popped Relic to clear the yards, making Goyf a 0/1. After Relic, I tap my Taiga and Plateau for RR, and sac them to Fireblast him down to 3 and make Goyf a 2/3 again and bring Loam Lion down to 1/1. Following the Fireblast, he attempts to Submerge both my creatures...only to realize I have no Forest now to make Submerge free.
Round 6: 0-2 against Hive Mind (AJ Sacher). It was Hive Mind. That's all I need to say.
Round 7: 2-1 against Team Italia. Game 1, I get mana screwed. Two lands in my opening hand, pretty good. First dual gets Wasted, basic Forest gets Vindicated. I draw 1 more fetch the entire game. Game 2 was a good back and forth, but he lost in the end. Game 3 he got mana screwed.
Round 8: 2-1 against Burn (splash black for Bob and green for Goyf). This was actually a hard match. The deck was surprisingly solid. He won game 1 off a Price of Progress. Game 2, he drops a fetch and cracks it for a Taiga and burns me. I Waste the Taiga, he never draws another land. Game 3 I got him to 8 and I was at 4. I Bolt him down to 5, tap another Taiga (or Plateau?) for R, sac two lands and Fireblast him to 1. In response to Fireblast, he taps out for Price of Progress - I got 2 nonbasics left in play. Thankfully 1 was a Wasteland, so I Wasted my own Taiga to take no damage from Price and use the floating R to Chain him for the win.

[CorpT]

Nice work. It got me thinking. Is there a good reason to still run Pridemage? Looking at the top decks, the only real issue is going to be Batterskulls and Jitte from UW Stoneblade. Worth giving up some utility for some speed there? It seems like it might be.

I was watching the Legacy MOCS on MODO and saw a Dark Zoo list that seems like it was playing along those lines. Fast aggro and a little disruption for the Reanimator/Hive Mind match ups.

BTW, I tested extensively against Reanimator the other day and one thing I learned is that you cannot tap out if you think they're going to Reanimate Jin-Gitaxis. Obviously it's going to happen some times, but if they draw 7, the game is over. You're really just hoping to catch them without a Misstep before they can draw with him. So save up Path mana if at all possible.

Trying this list on MODO now. Very, very fast.

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
3 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
2 Bayou

[David Kaplan]

I like your list CorpT. Have you tried Wasteland?

It's a time walk against many decks on turn 2. It also boosts the mana base a bit to get Tarmogoyf and Confidant out if needed.

[jandax]

^same can be said with any deck that could potentially run wasteland...

[Angelfire]

I ran Zoo at a local event yesterday (Die Hard Games in Lincoln, RI). The prize support was awesome as always, 1st: 4 foil Mental Misstep, 2nd: Foil DCI Dark Conifdant, and store credit to the rest of top 8. Only $10 entry fee. 5 rounds of Swiss, cut to top 8, 28 players.

I have been playing a big Zoo variant off and on for the last couple months, but was never in love with it. I would have fast starts that stopped putting unrelenting pressure due to awesome, but slow, cards like Knight and GSZ. I felt like I was playing Bant that traded Blue for Red. Then recently I saw Dan Marsh's list that ran roughly a million one drops and decided this more closely resembles both my play style (I love Red Sligh) and what Zoo needs to do to be competitive in the current environment.

Here is my list:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile

1 Sylvan Library
3 Manamorphose

11 Fetches
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland

Sideboard: May seem random, but worked surprisingly well.
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Path to Exile
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Shattering Spree
1 Artifact Mutation
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

A few notes before I begin. The first question is going to be "Wtf Manamorphose in Zoo?". This card is underrated. It fixes mana off of Wasteland or if your lands aren't quite what you need (this was relevant like 3-4 times already), it feeds Grim and pumps Goyf. All while working to add a tad of density to the deck for "free".

Most of the cards in my sideboard were brought in multiple times. Shattering Spree, Null Rod and Crypt never came in, but they were still good to have in there. There is a decent amount of Affinity, MUD and Stax on top of all the other staple artifacts running around in Legacy to justify a shit load of artifact hate.

Round 1: BUG Landstill
I keep a 1 lander on the draw against an unknown deck. I turn one Taiga, Nacatl. I get hit with Wasteland and then my second land gets Wasted as well. Game two I draw like 8 lands pretty quickly and lose. 0-1 start isn't a great way to begin, but I'm here to play Magic and continue on.

Round 2: Sneak and Show
Game one went very quickly. Goblin Guide worked as a spy (as well as a beatdown machine) to reveal enough information about his deck so that I could surmise he was playing Sneak and Show. Game two involves me Wasting one of his Volcanics and it stops him from hitting his third land before he is run over by a small group of 1 drops. After he dies he reveals 2 Firespouts from his hand. Wasteland ftw! I'm on the road to recovery, 1-1.

Round 3: UW Stoneblade
I don't remember the exact details of this match in chronological order. Highlights include: Pathing his Spellstutter Sprite with its counter ability on the stack, killing Stoneforge every time it tutored up Batterskull (I think), Casting Artifact Mutation on a Batterskull (I think he scooped in response)and not casting Lightning Helix on my turn and proceeding to watch him drop Mutavault on his turn to which meant it could now and would be countered by a Sprite (doh!). I won this match making me 2-1.

Round 4: Vial Goblins
I know what he's playing and I like my chances. Thankfully he also doesn't have Vial on turn one in either game. He makes both games very interesting, but I finish him off just before he can stabilize. I am now 3-1 and after looking at standings it looks like I can draw into top 8... except I get paired down so we have to play it out.

Round 5: Deadguy
On his turn two he casts Dark Ritual and I get a look of terror on my face knowing I may see a Phyrexian Obliterator hit the table. Heasks "How mad would you be if drop an Obliterator right now?", I tell him it would be pretty devastating (no path in my hand). Instead he GFTT my Kird Ape and drops a Stoneforge tutoring up Batterskull. While that is a great turn, I'm completely fine with it. On my turn I chain his SFM and drop another guy. The game goes back and forth a bit and we hit a stage where we both have no cards in hand, about 4 lands in play each and no cards in hand. I have a Lone Kird Ape, he has a lone Top on the battlefield. Back to back turns I topdeck Goyfs and it is too much for him to overcome.

Game two. He turn one casts Ritual, Ritual Batterskull. My opening hand is 2 Fetches/Duals, Wasteland, Metamorph, Qasali, Tin Street and PATH! I obvs path the germ. On turn two I cast Qasali over Tin Street because I wanna Metamorph Batterskull. He swords my Qasali (while I am tapped out) and then hymms me the turn after. He hits Tin Street and not Metamorph :P I copy Batterskull. He kills my Germ and drops a Bob soon after. I end step Bolt his Bob and Return Metamorph to my hand. I then replay it as Batterskull. I drop Sylvan Library at 30 lfie, he goes "Oh great, this gonna be like EDH, lose 8, lose 8" hahaha. He returns his Batterskull and casts it the following turn. My top 3 is Helix, Bolt, Nacatl. I lose 8, nuke his Germ and swing for lethal. This was a another fun match.

Top 8:
Round 1: Same guy playing BUG Landstill.
He offers to prize split with me. I like this for two reasons. One, this is a bad match-up and two I assume this is going to lead to him scooping to me so he can leave. I make a joke about King Solomon if I end up winning the Bob. I agree and he gives me the win and leaves with his girlfriend. He is a cool guy, but I'm glad I don't have to lose to him again. I am starving and drive to Burger King and eat. This round really couldn't have worked out better.

Round 2: Andrew Maag playing... BUG Landstill FFFFUUUUUU!
Andrew is a player I respect, he is a good player and a nice guy. I win the dice roll and my opening hand is nuts: Nacatl, Guide x2, Grim, Bolt and 2 Fetches, I keep. I turn one Nacatl (hoping to give him an explosive 8 damage turn 2 if he doesn't have any answers, should I have cast Guide anyway?). Anyway, he answers with Innocent Blood. My next turn I cast Guide and it gets Forced or Misstepped. Second Guide resolves and comes in for 2. He eventually stabilizes and I chip his life down with burn, but he has drawn too many cards and has Counterspells/answers for many of them. He wins the game at 3 life.

Game 2. I don't remember this game very well. I dropped Teeg after a bunch of removal spells ate my earlier threats and then he starts to race me with 2 Factories. I Helix one factory and am winning this war of attrition (we both are close to topdeck mode). I end up getting him to 3 with Kird Ape and Nacatl. He casts Consuming Vapors, bringing him to six. I draw a burn spell and kill him evenly. I don't lose that game without a topdecked burn spell, but it would have made it close.

Game 3. I have a very good opener and keep. He leads with Factory. I lead with Nacatl. He casts a turn 2 Standstill. I Waste his Factory (and another one in my hand). He breaks his own Standstill with Deed. On my turn I drop Qasali and don't destroy deed. I spend my final mana to Chain him in the face and avoid having to discard. On his turn he is forced to pop Deed. I go all in. I cast Nacatl, Kird and then Grim. He missteps Grim (this lets me know he doesn't have another Deed) so I cast another Grim and pass the turn. He cannot recover and dies the next turn.

It is now after 1 a.m. and people want to leave. The other player who made the finals (also playing Zoo, but a different build) offers me the Missteps if he gets the Bob and then we can all go home. That works for me. I end up 5-1 in matches I actually played, 2 Foil Missteps and was very happy with the way the tournament turned out.

Props:
-DHG and Dave for running another great event.
-All of my opponents for being cool guys. I have played my fair share of Magic players that seem more concerned with being douche bags and winning than having fun or even enjoying any sort of friendly conversation. This was not the case with any of my opponents tonight. Many of which were guys I had never met.
-Kird Ape and friends for winning me a bunch of matches.
-Burger King for giving me the "sustenance" to beat Landstill :P
-Myself for losing round one and still splitting in the finals

Slops:
-Burger King for failing to put both Bacon and Cheddar cheese on my Bacon Cheddar Ranch chicken sandwich. They also forgot to give me ketchup #firstworldpains
-I really got nothing else.

In case you care, the decks in the Top 8 were.
One Drop Zoo (Me)
Zoo (midrange I think)
Mono-green Infect
BUG Landstill
BUG Landstill (both creatureless)
Junk
Burn
Bant with red for Nacatl?

[Qweerios]

For those playing Dark Zoo, isn't Terminate better than PtE? It doesn't accelerate your opponent's manabase early on and cannot be missteped. I generally believe that the "cannot be missteped" argument is worthless in most cases but in a deck like Zoo where your only non-burn removal can be missteped, it is easy for your opponent to save the MM to protect their wall and buy precious time (I play MM in nonblue decks and I usually save it for Nacatles, Grims, and Paths).

Also, if you are using a SFM package in Zoo, isn't SoLaS the best sword availlable next to Jitte? It protects from Exile removal, black removal, gets you health to fuel Library or Bob and grabs you a creature. That's better than drawing a card in most cases since half the deck is about creatures.

[Morte]

Good point for Terminate. PtE is our only removal for fatties: making this slot more resilient to disruption can make the difference. Also,


"Manamorphose in Zoo?". This card is underrated. It fixes mana off of Wasteland or if your lands aren't quite what you need (this was relevant like 3-4 times already), it feeds Grim and pumps Goyf. All while working to add a tad of density to the deck for "free".

Never thought of it, interesting suggestion - and it’s even more promising in 4c Dark Zoo, to fix the mana needed by Confidant and Terminate.

I’m trying something like this (based on CorpT’s list):

3 Terminate
3 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Thoughtseize

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
1 Loam Lion
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
2 Bayou

[CorpT]

The downside to Terminate (and a few other spells) is the double color requirements. Twice the mana for it doesn't help either. It's a very fine balance between mana cost, color requirements, and Misstepable. I would certainly not be opposed to it though. Few differences:

Path v Terminate:
Terminate doesn't ramp. Very good.
Costs twice as much. This is very relevant against things like Reanimator that require you to destroy the creature before end-step for things like Jin-Gi Taxis.
Terminate can't be Missteped. That's the flipside.
Terminate can't hit Mirran Crusader/Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

I guess my main argument against the ramp issue is that most of the time, if I'm casting removal on something turn 1-2, it probably dies to Chain/Bolt so I'm ok. Those are the turns ramping really hurts. On the other hand, I have the chance to at least cast Path if I have to. Misstep is probably the biggest reason to run Terminate over Path. It really gets old running Paths into Missteps.

My list right now:

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
1-2x Flex slots

4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape

The flex slots vary between land, Helix, Pridemage and Teeg. I like the rest of the deck.

[troopatroop]

My list right now:

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
1-2x Flex slots

4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape

The flex slots vary between land, Helix, Pridemage and Teeg. I like the rest of the deck.

8 Kird Apes? I don't think that's the answer to a SFM-Batterskull metagame. Call me crazy...

[CorpT]

8 Kird Apes? I don't think that's the answer to a SFM-Batterskull metagame. Call me crazy...

There were three Zoo decks in the Top 16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-08-14&end_date=2011-08-14&event_ID=20) at the latest SCG. All three run 8 Kird Apes. It's better than you think.

[troopatroop]

There were three Zoo decks in the Top 16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-08-14&end_date=2011-08-14&event_ID=20) at the latest SCG. All three run 8 Kird Apes. It's better than you think.

Yeah, but you're choosing to run Dark Confidant on top of that, and I'm not sure that's what the deck needs. If you're planning on going for the throat, Confidant isn't really the card you want. Also, not posting a manabase for your deck is somewhat embarassing. Lists have 60 cards.

[ivanpei]

Do you guys really like goblin guide? I got nothing against 8 apes, they are steady and dependable. I really really dislike guides though. Giving my opponent lands can matter. Especially if you also run wastelands. I find myself boarding out guides alot. Also is steppe lynx unplayable at all? I can see it played in a land heavy zoo build (ie 4 wastes).

I'm thinking of playing this:
4 Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Path
2 Helix/ Rift Bolt/ Fireblast

12 Fetchlands
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savanna
4 Wasteland

I prefer fireblast as that extra point can matter.

[dsck]

I placed 2nd (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6645&iddeck=48145) in very small local tournament and Lynxes were awesome. I would also play and recommend playing this build over kird apes any day.

[CorpT]

Yeah, but you're choosing to run Dark Confidant on top of that, and I'm not sure that's what the deck needs. If you're planning on going for the throat, Confidant isn't really the card you want. Also, not posting a manabase for your deck is somewhat embarassing. Lists have 60 cards.

The mana base was posted five whole posts above it. Not reading that is somewhat embarrassing.

I swapped Dark Confidant for Lightning Helix. I'm not sure how big of a deal Lightning Helix is for beating SFM, but it hasn't that relevant in my testing.

Guides are very hit or miss and they get sided out fairly often. That being said, I've won a lot of games on the back of them, so it's really hard to say.

[BantFTW]

you want smt to awnser SFM shizzle, just play faster so with Manriki-Gusari :P

[Artlee]

Also, if you are using a SFM package in Zoo, isn't SoLaS the best sword availlable next to Jitte? It protects from Exile removal, black removal, gets you health to fuel Library or Bob and grabs you a creature. That's better than drawing a card in most cases since half the deck is about creatures.
If you run SFM package, it's mostly for the late game so your creatures can get through. Most decks run 4 exile spells, and they should be used up if you get to late game at all.
If you are not able to attack with your creatures, it's probably because there are many creatures, and those are probably green (goyf & knight to mention the MVPs), or merfolks. Therefore I feel body and mind is the best sword.


Do you guys really like goblin guide? I got nothing against 8 apes, they are steady and dependable. I really really dislike guides though. Giving my opponent lands can matter. Especially if you also run wastelands. I find myself boarding out guides alot. Also is steppe lynx unplayable at all? I can see it played in a land heavy zoo build (ie 4 wastes).

In my testing Guides are really great. T1 + T2 guides is hard to beat. But I do agree they get (and should) be sided out, especially if you are on the draw G2. You don't want guide to get blocked, you want to hit face.

[jandax]

Do you guys really like goblin guide? I got nothing against 8 apes, they are steady and dependable. I really really dislike guides though. Giving my opponent lands can matter. Especially if you also run wastelands. I find myself boarding out guides alot. Also is steppe lynx unplayable at all? I can see it played in a land heavy zoo build (ie 4 wastes).

I'm thinking of playing this:
4 Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Path
2 Helix/ Rift Bolt/ Fireblast

12 Fetchlands
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savanna
4 Wasteland

I prefer fireblast as that extra point can matter.

You're giving them lands (sometimes) but also taking life at a faster rate than normal. It's what the deck is geared to do. And you're giving them lands with Path anyhoo, just saying. Guide doesn't rely on anything like land drops for Steppe lynx. I used to be a huge proponent of lynx but have disliked him in favor of more apes and Guides. Nut Lynx draws are still nut draws, but so are Guides, and Lynx takes a turn extra before it can get in there. I've been in your camp and can say that you just might like it if you tried GG out

[ivanpei]

I'll give guides a try. I've been annoyed by people topping/brainstorming with a guide trigger on the stack to put a land on the top of their library. Same thing applies to jace/ sylvan/ ponder. Also, how many lands is right and how many wastes?

I'm thinking of playing 22 lands with 19 coloured (all duals and fetches, no basics) and 3 wastes. Thoughts?

[trivial_matters]

I'm trying 23 lands at the moment, of which 3 are wastelands. By the way, you don't really need 2 Savannahs. I've been playing 2 Taigas, 3 Plateaus and 1 Savannah forever now and haven't had any problems. (3 Plateaus because I play 4 Steppe Lynx). I'd cram in a few basics instead.

On an unrelated note, play Price of Progress, at least in the sideboard.

[jandax]

@ivan: This is legacy, people are going to have some busted interactions. Having them top to get a free land or what have you is fine, as long as they're taking some damage.

@trivial: I play that exact same ratio and have been for forever as well. Green is geared down in my list because of all the other green decks in the area and how easily Perish and Plage and blah blah shuts them down. I think I'd rather play PoP than Wasteland, and playing them together is retarded. Kird Animal Zoo with Price of Progress is a strong deck right now. No one is playing Counter/top or Chalice of the Void en masse.

[jandax]

@ivan: This is legacy, people are going to have some busted interactions. Having them top to get a free land or what have you is fine, as long as they're taking some damage.

@trivial: I play that exact same ratio and have been for forever as well. Green is geared down in my list because of all the other green decks in the area and how easily Perish and Plage and blah blah shuts them down. I think I'd rather play PoP than Wasteland, and playing them together is retarded. Kird Animal Zoo with Price of Progress is a strong deck right now. No one is playing Counter/top or Chalice of the Void en masse.

[jnosrati]

I just want to put in an ounce of my experience with the lynx. You really dont need to play more lands to support it. It works just fine (and very well) with 12 fetches and 8 lands. all these 21+ land zoo decks are pulling out important spells to slightly abuse steppe lynx. Zoo's the only deck ive played for at least 2 years; If theres something i'm missing, please enlighten me. Are people just trying to make wl crappy against us? Because its already not all that great/ you can often play around it +md pop. Why run over 20 lands?? Someone please argue against me. MD teeg wrecks so many decks....

[Tombstalker]

Greetings brothers, I am new to competitive zoo and I would like some critique on this list. Heres the list:

Sligh Zoo (61)

Creatures 23
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

Enchantments 2
2 Sylvan Library

Burn/Removal 14
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Shard Volley
2 Price of Progress

Land 22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Plateau
4 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland

Sideboard 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Path to Exile
1 Retribution of the Meek
2 Qasali Pridemage


So its a version of cat sligh I guess. I opted for more burn over PtE in the main to maximize pain. Shard Volley is my attempt at new secret tech, basically I have 12 lightning bolts main in place of PtE and Fireblast. Reason is 2 Fireblast cost 4 land and net 8 damage, albeit for "free". Conversely Shard Volley costs 4 lands and nets 12 damage. Shard Volley also helps to mitigate the maindeck PoP and only requires a land, not a specific type so its a little broader than Fireblast (although id like to squeeze 1 of these back in 2). So anyway there it is, let me know what you have to say.

[CorpT]

So its a version of cat sligh I guess. I opted for more burn over PtE in the main to maximize pain. Shard Volley is my attempt at new secret tech, basically I have 12 lightning bolts main in place of PtE and Fireblast. Reason is 2 Fireblast cost 4 land and net 8 damage, albeit for "free". Conversely Shard Volley costs 4 lands and nets 12 damage. Shard Volley also helps to mitigate the maindeck PoP and only requires a land, not a specific type so its a little broader than Fireblast (although id like to squeeze 1 of these back in 2). So anyway there it is, let me know what you have to say.

Except that 12 damage takes 4 cards from your hand. Fireblast only takes 2 cards from your hand for 8 damage. If you want more burn, just run Lightning Helix. It is far better than the weak Shard Volley. You're just asking to get Missteped into a Stone Rain. Rift Bolt is also better than Shard Volley.

[Tombstalker]

Aw I see, hadnt thought of the misstep LD angle, although FoW etc can hurt Fireblast similar. My reasoning was to add more instant speed burn density to the deck at most efficient cost/damage. Oh well, seemed good on paper :) Not really a fan of Rift Bolt but I may just return to 2x Fireblast as it does take up less space giving me room for PtE back in the main.
Hows the rest look?

[CorpT]

I don't like Steppe Lynx, but...

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38853

That is Patrick Sullivan's deck. I have a hard time disagreeing with many of the choices he makes, so I would start there.

[Artlee]

I understand Steppe Lynx is a matter of personal taste, but I got to agree with Pat Cox. Mostly because I would believe EVERYTHING he has to say about Zoo decks, as he has played with it for years.


What does cutting Knight let us do? Add even more one-drops of course! As you can see, we have the full eight Kird Apes in this deck. Many people have asked me “why not Steppe Lynx?” Well, Steppe Lynx is terrible in Zoo. Look at this deck: it runs twenty lands. Ideally, you want to draw about 2.5 lands per game. That does not exactly fit with Steppe Lynx. Also, you have to play Lynx early to get any use out of him, and there are many times you do not want to lead with an 0/1. If they're playing Goblin Lackey, you need a 2/2 (soon a 3/3) or 2/3 on turn 1. If they're playing Goblin Guide, you need a 2/3. If they're playing Merfolk, you need a 1/1 that kills their entire deck.

Its just great to know that every time you draw a card you are very likely to draw a creature or burn as fetching really thins the mana base.

Here is the article for reference. good read (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22122_Winning_The_SCG_Invitational_With_Wild_Nacatl_Part_2_Legacy.html)

[Qweerios]

Since Loam Lion, Kird Ape, Grim Lavamancer, Steppe Lynx, and Goblin Guide are so popular, what about Proclamation of Rebirth and/or Ranger of Eos? I admit Eos has a high CMC but Rebirth looks like a promising option for the midgame. Just when your opponent thought that Deed or EE would bring him back in the game...

On a different note, why isn't Dark Zoo more popular/better than Naya Zoo? Maybe it's the price tag but it seems to me like Zoo's manabase is already 95% dual lands. Bob is a beating CA monster, the perfect addition to this deck. Whatever Bob makes you draw into, it will be fuel: lands for Lynx, Terminate to swing, burn for the face, or creatures for the win. I have gotten much more value out of my Lynx and burn spells since I added Bob. Here is my Dark Zoo list:


Creatures (27)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (12)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate

Lands (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast

[CorpT]

On a different note, why isn't Dark Zoo more popular/better than Naya Zoo? Maybe it's the price tag but it seems to me like Zoo's manabase is already 95% dual lands. Bob is a beating CA monster, the perfect addition to this deck. Whatever Bob makes you draw into, it will be fuel: lands for Lynx, Terminate to swing, burn for the face, or creatures for the win. I have gotten much more value out of my Lynx and burn spells since I added Bob. Here is my Dark Zoo list:

I'm working on a Dark Zoo primer that should be out soon. I agree that Dark Zoo is very promising. Try Mental Misstep in it. It has been a rockstar for me for protecting Bob/Goyf.

[CranialX]

Can we make a 3 color deck instead of 4 color deck?
Its already weak against wasteland

[ivanpei]

I did some quick testing with the 16 one mana beatsticks lists (guides, nacatl, ape, lion) and the deck is really consistent. I find that I am often flooding with 22 lands. You guys have no issues with 23? And I've been testing against decks with 4 wastelands, so I'm pretty sure 22 is plenty. Changes I noticed from traditional Pridemage/Kotr Zoo are:

1. It's really really fast and gives slower combo decks like Reanimator and Hive mind fits.
2. Equipment is a really big problem, especially batterskull. Without Pridemage, if they have the misstep/force for your removal on Stoneforge, it is Game Over.
3. It punishes the slower blue decks out there, especially the blue mirror-tuned misstep decks (Dismember over simple removal, really?). 16 Cat Zoo really punishes these mirror centric decks.
4. Wastelands has been very 50/50 for me. Sometimes its awesome and I screw them just enough to race their bombs. Sometimes, they just shrug it off since I'm giving them land with Guide/Path. I'm really not sold on wastes. They are fine, but the deck can do ok without them.

[Artlee]

I agree, equipments can be very hard to deal with. But if your meta is filled with Stoneforge Mystic, you simply put Qasali Pridemage in main.
I am trying the Pat Cox build from SCG Richmond with 20 lands. In my experience, you don't want to use time on attacking their manabase with wasteland, especially when you are playing with goblin guide. It is extremely consistent, and if you get the opponent below 10 life, it should be possible to burn him to death. For reference, here is his build:

20 LANDS
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

23 CREATURES
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

15 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile

SIDEBOARD
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Ranger of Eos

I have swapped SoBM with SoFF, but that can change anytime depending on meta. Actually I'm not even that sold on the single Stoneforge and 2 swords, but I havent found out what to put in instead. It should probably be some kind of graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt or Faerie Macabre.

[BantFTW]

I play a slower zoo deck, with 2SFM, arbor, 2 noble and stuff,
will share it later btw.. And I also play 2 tins treet holigan, they're the bomb :)
But the problem is if I would look them with GSZ, than their effect doesn't count..
So I'm thinking of playing also qqasali who's better but the problem is you need to sac him.
what do you guys do against the faster decks and things that play natural order smt like that?
I mostly lose then.

But I'm also testing fast deck with only one and 2 drops and like Ivanpei says then you are mostly even faster then hove mind, or other combo decks, and the one drop is quite important, blue decks have it hard with many creatures and they can't counter them all and will die because of it.

I was thinking of smt like wing shards side :O?

the fast deck testing:

12 fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 POP
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile

It is so fast not normal and it owns but if you get to lategame you're fucked so I don't know still testing...

[troopatroop]

I see 12 fetchlands and 0 Steppe Lynx? Doinitwrong imo.

[CorpT]

I see 12 fetchlands and 0 Steppe Lynx? Doinitwrong imo.

Why would that be wrong? Most people don't like Lynx, and there is nothing wrong with running 12 Fetches in a Grim Lavamancer deck.

[Artlee]

You really dont want more than 3 lands per game, unless you sided in Ranger of eos or elspeth. All lands I draw after the third is a card i rather wantet a thread or burn.

[troopatroop]

I still think Steppe Lynx is viable in Sligh-esque builds. I also think not running Wasteland in that strategy is a mistake.

[Hanni]

Woah wait, people in the Zoo thread are finally interested in Fast Zoo again? I never thought I'd see the end of the Big Zoo craze.

Here's my Sligh list from like 2009 or 2010 or something:

R/g/w Naya Sligh

// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells (24)
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [ROE] Forked Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

[angel882]

Hi, I'm thinking playing this dark zoo in legacy but I also think if it could be ok in modern?? I was thinking something like this

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix

4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb

don't know what to play in sb because don't what people are going to play. Any comments and thoughts about the list??

[igri_is_a_bk]

Has Domain Zoo been tried and excused from Legacy? I played it years ago when it was an Extended deck with Tribal Flames and Gaea's Might both being exceptionally strong at the time. I could see GM being less impressive with Legacy's wealth of one-mana removal spells and Wasteland may be a problem for both cards.

I may have answered my own question, but has it been tried?

I play it from time-to-time on MWS and it destroys. Although, that's hardly proof of its ability. Here's what I use.

4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames
3 Gaea's Might

I have an affinity for porting old Extended decks to Legacy since I started playing competitively around that time. Tribal Flames acts as a one sided Price of Progress from my experiences and Gaea's Might is super Giant Growth, but I can see its vulnerabilities. Too much liability for Legacy?

[lordofthepit]

Has anyone tried running Mental Misstep in Zoo? If so, what variant were you running (i.e. normal, Cat Sligh, Big, Blue, etc.)?

I feel like any deck that isn't running Mental Misstep is simply suboptimal in the current metagame, since getting your 1-drop Misstepped is such a tempo beating. I have had some good success running Mental Misstep in Rubin Zoo for a few months since New Phyrexia came out, but I've decided to put Zoo aside since the metagame has shifted so much (with almost no Merfolk, Goblins, B/W to prey on).

It also seems like smaller Zoo variants with more one drops are have had some limited success in SCG Opens, although I'm not sure whether this is simply a reflection of the fact that smaller Zoo is the most popular form. None of the builds I have seen run Mental Misstep though, so if you have experience with that type of a deck, please give me some feedback! :smile:

[jandax]

The recent trend is to overload on one drops. MM is horrible in a pure aggro deck. Don't get sucked in, and don't think in a vacuum like you are/did in that post. Play through it, people aren't playing CB anymore, so filling up on cheap beats isn't a downside when you can cast multiple beaters a turn

[lordofthepit]

MM is horrible in a pure aggro deck. Don't get sucked in, and don't think in a vacuum like you are/did in that post.

I agree with what you said here, but despite containing a very similar core, Rubin Zoo plays out very differently than normal Zoo. It's certainly not a pure aggro deck, and it has enough card advantage to make up for the occasional dead Mental Misstep. I found that the most important factor in my opening hand towards winning (besides not being mana screwed/mana flooded) was actually having a Mental Misstep, rather than an aggressive one-drop. Mental Misstep is also awesome in Blue Zoo for obvious reasons, even though I think that deck has a lot of other problems working against it. Of course, I'm digressing, and I can understand why it can be potentially bad in smaller Zoo decks that gear towards speed.

My problem with normal Zoo decks is it doesn't give you significant room to outplay your opponent. It's advantages are fairly obvious: it is extremely consistent and it punishes poor draws/decisions from your opponent. However, autoscooping to a Batterskull unless you're able to quickly rip a Qasali Pridemage seems pretty miserable; perhaps my perception of this matchup is flawed, and I wouldn't mind being correct, but as it currently stands, I don't like the fact that the deck isn't very flexible.

[Borealis]

Zoo does not "Autoscoop" to Batterskull. Run some Pridemages, first of all, if you expect to see that card. Second, we have minimum of 12 removal spells for their turn 2 Stoneforge, and we want to be clearing the board of creatures anyway. Just "Autobolt" the Mystic and don't get Dazed. As long as you have at least 2 removal spells by turn 2 it's not that hard to fight through.

[CorpT]

I'm up to 4 MD Pridemages and 2-3 Ancient Grudge in the board. I'm having more issues with Knight based decks than Batterskull decks.

[trivial_matters]

I've switched to testing Cox' SCG list. I've played half a dozen matches so far and, as said above, it's pretty consistent. Things I dislike is lack of Pridemage main and lack of Price of Progress. Continuing, my experience with Lighting Helix is so-so; in other Zoo builds with less one-drops I didn't like it much but here it's okay, what with your curve being so low. IMO, the best thing about it is the fact that it's an instant.

Regarding the sideboard, Elspeth and Ranger of Eos with only 20 lands seem a bit risky.

All in all, I'm going to continue testing it, but running eight Apes and the full four Guides make the deck a bit of a one-trick pony, not to mention me a bit nervous, although the bucketfuls of burn go a long way to finish off an opponent once your apes have swung a few times.

[Hanni]

The one-drop heavy, burn heavy lists are actually Sligh. Zoo and Sligh are fundamentally different.

Zoo attempts to overwhelm an opponent with creature beats, primarily using burn as removal. This is why those lists only run 7-8 burn spells, and run 20+ creatures. Zoo plans on doing the bulk of its damage via creature beats.

Sligh, on the other hand, only intends to use its creatures as more efficient burn spells. If a 3/3 Nacatl swings twice, thats 6 damage for 1 card and 1 mana. Once the creature plan goes to shit, and it will at some point, the deck switches to being a burn deck, and kills the opponent through inevitability. Sligh plans on doing alot more damage (to the dome) via burn spells than a Zoo list does.

When building a list that is on the borderline of Zoo and Sligh, it's important to keep the fundamentals of both strategies in mind. For example, you cannot have a one-drop heavy list with only a few burn spells and expect to do well.

Sligh is all about effeciency, which is why the Sligh list I posted doesn't run Tarmogoyf nor Grim Lavamancer. Sure, both of those guys are heavy duty damage dealers over the course of a game, but they are far less effecient at doing damage than the other creatures options.

Goyf cannot swing until turn 3 at the earliest, usually for only 3 damage.

Grim Lavamancer only does 1 damage a turn until you can start activating him, at which point he's 1 mana for 2 damage each time. So essentially, if you start activating him the turn after he comes into play, your paying RR for 2 damage, RRR for 4, RRRR for 6, etc. Compare that to Nacatl doing 6 for G, and you can see the efficiency difference.

The way I see it, the best approaches are the ones that commit fully to their strategy. If you're going to go a Fast Zoo/Sligh route, maximize efficiency. If you're going to go a Zoo/Big Zoo route, maximize power/cost, i.e Nacatl, Goyf, KoTR, etc.

[Artlee]

Grim Lavamancer only does 1 damage a turn until you can start activating him, at which point he's 1 mana for 2 damage each time. So essentially, if you start activating him the turn after he comes into play, your paying RR for 2 damage, RRR for 4, RRRR for 6, etc. Compare that to Nacatl doing 6 for G, and you can see the efficiency difference.

This is a terrible logic! RRRR for 6 dmg might be true in some way, but it cannot be countered and it turns your graveyard into burn during mid-late game where you usually don't have much to use for your mana anyway.
Unless you know your opponent has a sweeper you go balls to the walls and spit out every creature you got as fast as possible. In a deck with mainly one-drops this is done pretty quickly, and it's lovely to have grim lavamancer to do some afterburn or clear the path for the beaters.

[angel882]

I'm going to play modern in a local tournament on sunday. I'm going to play domain zoo. Any thought what kind of list I should be playing? Are there any players who are going attend Pro Tour: Philadelphia and play zoo in modern?

[Hanni]

@Artlee

You did read the context before you posted, right? Sligh doesn't care that Grim Lavamancer activations can't be countered, and it doesn't care that it turns its graveyard into additional burn in the midgame. Sligh cares about effeciency, and Grim Lavamancer is not effecient. I absolutely love Grim Lavamancer, and in a Zoo list, of course I'd run him. Sligh is a different animal.

[BantFTW]

20 lands:
12 fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

23:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

16:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 lightning helix (better than chain lightning, in some matchups I just needed the life and instant speed is so much better)
2 POP (atm really the bomb)
4 mental misstep (you just can counter the GSZ and shit from others)
3 Path to Exile

1 xx (mostly random, I played a goblin buishwacker this tournament, if I got it it was really strong but idk about the random card)

this deck is very fast and can raise combo sometimes, control ain't a hard matchup (equipments I don't have a hard time against because control can't hold their creatures, I always burn those in stead of doing bolts and stuff on their life)

What I thought was a good matchup was Maverick, but I could almost do nothing against that deck..

Also against combo I think we should have a blue sideboard thingy, like spell pierces or something because I play mm main and then also spell pierce ( or also/snare) is really good because we can't do alot against combo...

@.. : The lynx aren't good enough, and I don't want to many land. The lynx akmost can't defend they are strong but die also very fast so I like kird ape/loam lion much more :)

Any questions I'll test some sideboard and mainboard now on cockatrice so if anyone wants to play add Xypes

Also the graveyard matchups are a pain because atm (my meta) they play alot of manaless dredge and also other decks play alot out of their graveyard so I was thinking the xx probably to play a scavenging ooze. And sideboard more graveyard hate because I expect it to see alot of play @GP Amsterdam...

[BWM]

What I thought was a good matchup was Maverick, but I could almost do nothing against that deck..

I have the same problem, what's the plan to win against Maverick?

[BantFTW]

I really don't know, I was planning on just playing NOPRO in the sideboard because I can xD
That just wins from them^^, also other matchups could be better with it I think so why not...
It's only 5 sideboard slots...

EDIT: in my list the mm are quite good against many decks, but the problem is also the damage you take sometimes, maybe you can better play cahin lightning or go for chain lightning and rift bolts and more pop or something and play no mm, i don't know they were quite good against combo and stuff so^^

[CorpT]

Maverick is a rough matchup. It does depend on their particular build: Mom vs no Mom, Mistep, etc... But it is definitely rough. I've been siding Retribution of the Meek and it has been good against a lot of stuff. Going to start recommending those as decent answers to a lot of problems: Knight, Progenitus, Sphinx, etc...

I'm also considering adding Pyroclasm. It's a little stranger add, but it seems like it could work against a lot of stuff. Elves, Dredge, the chaff in Maverick, etc... That one is untested, but an interesting idea.

My basic game plan against Maverick is to become the removal deck. That means loading up on Path/Swords, Retribution and all the burn I can find room for. Before, I would aggressively kill Nobles, like I generally do with NO RUG. Lately, though, I've been letting them live in favor of saving the removal for more important creatures like Mom. That seems to be working better.

[Richard Cheese]

@Bant - not to immediately discount Misstep, but I don't see how it is better in your build than Chain Lightning would be. In sligh Zoo, you tend to get in some early beats until an opposing Goyf or Knight clogs up the board, at which point burn steps in to finish the job. Misstep protects you from Swords/Path and other Missteps, but is that really worth giving up all that reach for?

Also if your meta is infested with manaless dredge, just board 4 Leylines and mull to it aggressively. AFAIK, they have literally no answer to it.

[Borealis]

The one-drop heavy, burn heavy lists are actually Sligh. Zoo and Sligh are fundamentally different.

Zoo attempts to overwhelm an opponent with creature beats, primarily using burn as removal. This is why those lists only run 7-8 burn spells, and run 20+ creatures. Zoo plans on doing the bulk of its damage via creature beats.

Sligh, on the other hand, only intends to use its creatures as more efficient burn spells. If a 3/3 Nacatl swings twice, thats 6 damage for 1 card and 1 mana. Once the creature plan goes to shit, and it will at some point, the deck switches to being a burn deck, and kills the opponent through inevitability. Sligh plans on doing alot more damage (to the dome) via burn spells than a Zoo list does.

When building a list that is on the borderline of Zoo and Sligh, it's important to keep the fundamentals of both strategies in mind. For example, you cannot have a one-drop heavy list with only a few burn spells and expect to do well.

Sligh is all about effeciency, which is why the Sligh list I posted doesn't run Tarmogoyf nor Grim Lavamancer. Sure, both of those guys are heavy duty damage dealers over the course of a game, but they are far less effecient at doing damage than the other creatures options.

Goyf cannot swing until turn 3 at the earliest, usually for only 3 damage.

Grim Lavamancer only does 1 damage a turn until you can start activating him, at which point he's 1 mana for 2 damage each time. So essentially, if you start activating him the turn after he comes into play, your paying RR for 2 damage, RRR for 4, RRRR for 6, etc. Compare that to Nacatl doing 6 for G, and you can see the efficiency difference.

The way I see it, the best approaches are the ones that commit fully to their strategy. If you're going to go a Fast Zoo/Sligh route, maximize efficiency. If you're going to go a Zoo/Big Zoo route, maximize power/cost, i.e Nacatl, Goyf, KoTR, etc.

Hanni, I get what you're trying to say here, but I think your logic is a little flawed. First off, Zoo is a Sligh deck. There's no point in splitting hairs. The original Sligh deck ran about 25 creatures and 8-10 Burn spells. That's true of most Zoo builds as well, with some people opting for more Burn. Running 24 Burn spells is more like a Burn deck with a Naya splash for the better creature options.

On 'Goyf and Grim Lavamancer: They are both extremely efficient. They may be slower than some options, but efficient is their definition. In your reference to Wild Nacatl, you pointed out he's worth 6 damage after two swings. Goyf does the same thing, just a turn later, with the option of dealing double what Nacatl is capable of. Which would you rather have, Goyf or Ironclaw Orcs?

Grim Lavamancer is not the same as paying RRR for 4 damage, it's a Shock on a Stick every turn, assuming you fuel him properly. The Card Advantage outweighs the "hassle" of having to pay R every turn for 2 more damage you wouldn't have had otherwise. Sure, there are quicker spells (Lightning Bolt, Wild Nacatl for example), but efficiency isn't just measured by instantaneous performance. What else are you spending Red mana on by turn 3-4 anyway?

I understand the reasons to cut Lavamancer, especially if you're running 20+ burn spells. Cutting Goyf makes no sense to me if you're in green though. I'd cut Lynxes first, since you only listed 20 lands. I ran 1-drop Zoo at the GP with 25 creatures and "only" 10 or so burn spells and did just fine. I also ran Goyf and Grim Lavamancer.

[CorpT]

Grim Lavamancer is good enough for Burn. It's good enough for me in Zoo.

[BantFTW]

mm is good because you can let them lose the tempo, like counter a turn 1 gsz and maybe they're a littlebit screwed to if you're lucky^^ so I really like it but not sure^^

[Richard Cheese]

mm is good because you can let them lose the tempo, like counter a turn 1 gsz and maybe they're a littlebit screwed to if you're lucky^^ so I really like it but not sure^^

True, but a T1 GSZ is only getting Dryad Arbor, which you can kill with burn.

[CorpT]

I play Misstep in the board, only against combos. It's reasonable there. But I wouldn't bring it in against much else.

[BantFTW]

yeah your probably right but still most people do'nt expect it but yeah :)

[Borealis]

I played Misstep in Junk Depths for awhile and even then it sometimes was a dead draw. In Zoo I don't think we can afford to have cards that are so purely reactive and narrow. I can see the value against Combo but otherwise I think it's better to just draw another threat than a random counterspell. The surprise value is fun though :confused:

[jandax]

Mindbreak trap is better against combo, I'm just willing to run anything but a counterspell in Naya zoo.

[Borealis]

Red Elemental Blast is the best counterspell we could ask for.

[trivial_matters]

Alright, how do you beat Aggro Loam with Zoo? Playing Cox' list with minor changes* I just lost against that deck in the top 8. It was all the more frustrating because this is now the second time in a row that I got knocked out in the first round of the top 8, playing against the same guy with more or less the same list, him with Aggro Loam and me with Zoo. I think discussing this match-up is of general relevance because this deck has made a few strong showings recently.

He plays it 4c (green, red, black, white) with Burning Wish (Perish, Loam, Devastating Dreams, etc. as targets); Tarmogoyf, Knight and Crusher as beaters; Dark Confidant; Vindicate and Dreams all main, also Maze of Ith and Stronghold as well as Fire/Grove. I think it might have been this (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6398&iddeck=46334) exact list.
My observations are that usual graveyard hate like Crypt and Relic is not so good and that the only chance of winning is to go all-in, very aggressive, and try to burn him out in the end. Only problem with dropping all your apes into play is Devastating Dreams, which I think I'm going to have nightmares about since getting Dreamed twice in one game made me want to pick up my cards and just walk away, or alternatively punch my opponent, neither of which would've helped much.

So anyway, I reckon more Price of Progress and perhaps Surgical Extraction (significantly worse that Extirpate though, and even worse if opponent plays Wish) could help here. I think this match-up will never be favourable for Zoo, but I think we should discuss measures to make it at least a bit better.

*My list: Changes from Cox':
main: -1 Loam Lion, -2 Lightning Helix, +1 Path to Exile, +2 Price of Progress
side:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

[BantFTW]

I've also switched to aggroloam (always played zoo) and playing a list with 4 bolts, 4 chains, 4 apes, 4 wild nacatl main, it is as fast as zoo and mid/lategame it's really much better :)

But how to beat it, I've once thought about playing NOPRO sideboard, that's how I beated aggroloam and also maverick, otherwise those matchups are so hard, and then you don't even have combo and stuff counted. So I would go something like NOPRO it just wins matches^^

Also could you give me a list of that deck, I would like to see it, ty!

BTW also against those decks try to kill their confidants and things with bolts and chains and hold your PTE for knight, I also played a scavenging ooze main, it rocks against alot of stuff these days because everything plays something graveyard... just saying.

ps: this list :O? (Or something like it :?)


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Terminate
3 Punishing Fire
1 Putrefy
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

[jnosrati]

just a little trick i noticed :
path and goblin guide both give the opponent lands, but what are more lands useful for? Usually, the only thing fast zoo fears about giving the opponent land is playing 4 mana cc spells that wipe us out. So the answer, overload on the speed with gg, and maindeck 3x teeg so all those extra lands dont help em out much. Just took out my missteps for gg's and this is proving to be amazing.

[jnosrati]

just a little trick i noticed :
path and goblin guide both give the opponent lands, but what are more lands useful for? Usually, the only thing fast zoo fears about giving the opponent land is playing 4 mana cc spells that wipe us out. So the answer, overload on the speed with gg, and maindeck 3x teeg so all those extra lands dont help em out much. Just took out my missteps for gg's and this is proving to be amazing.

[BantFTW]

yeah, and mental misstep is banned too, maybe zoo is better now :)