[Deck] Zoo

[Curby]

Re: double post, what about three mana spells like Perish and Flamebreak? You get one untap, one draw, one land, and one attack. Anything more is powerful because it's effectively cheating, and I don't want to let my opp. cheat.

[jnosrati]

how many decks play those that actually top 8 often. flamebreak often comes in against you by decks that you have a very great MU with; as for perish, its basically a 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and between your burns and the haste on gg, you can burn em out usually. also, black decks like to pay life.

I would like to talk about sb plans against black decks that run deed, crusaders, bobs, gatekeeper, nighthawk, etc. It can be tough

[BantFTW]

Just play the burn on their creatures and watch also out for discard :)

[jnosrati]

bant, thank you, but really, what can i board against them. bwg deed + thoughtseize+ wasteland + vindicate+ stoneforge package(protected by thoughtseize) is a problem for our deck.

[BantFTW]

If they get it online yes,
playtest it and ask them to play no mm now...
You will see they can't protect them.
The only problem for me atm is if they get it online (a batterskull) and a progenitus.
I play fast zoo now, maybe switching back to slower where I can do some more things
against artifacts and graveyard hate mainboard (tin street, qasali and scavenging ooze).

But for the rets always burn their dryad arbor and also their nobles and sfm and you'll be allright :)
I just think the problem is a NOPRO for this deck and combo.
So I don't know it at the moment and need to test more.

Maybe show your list and then we can see...

gr

[jnosrati]

my main problem is gatekeeper of malakir. its a serious problem, and it helps the stall until deed or stoneforge hits the board
my list 12 fetch, 3 basic 5 duals
4 steppe lynx
3 chain lightning
4 path
3 gaddock teeg
4 goblin guide
3 pridemage
2 pop
2 library

the rest is in every deck
no knights or sf package

[dsck]

my main problem is gatekeeper of malakir. its a serious problem, and it helps the stall until deed or stoneforge hits the board
my list 12 fetch, 3 basic 5 duals
4 steppe lynx
3 chain lightning
4 path
3 gaddock teeg
4 goblin guide
3 pridemage
2 pop
2 library

the rest is in every deck
no knights or sf package

4x PoP after SB and some early beatdown + few bolts should finish rock type decks fairly easily.

[jandax]

Since Mental Misstep is effectively gone, for the next couple GPT's I'll be taking Zoo for a number of reasons. In an unknown metagame, it's best to play to one's strengths. Zoo is looking pretty good in a field of pet decks people will undoutibly be bringing back to the tables. For an unknown meta, Zoo's consistency is also a strength. Good on all the Storm players who get to do their thing again. Playing control right now seems haphazard. Here's my list, before any meta adapts, I wouldn't change a thing.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile

2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress
3 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip

[Goin Aggro]

I know that a lot of people have played Goblin Guide and have done very well, I can't shake the feeling that it's just loose play. Digging them two cards deeper into a library, even at the cost of an upgraded damage rate, seems kinda bad. That, and it now it trades with Snap. For example, I would not want to run against the following opener from any opponent.

T1: Brainstorm, putting a land so that guide will trigger
T2: Stoneforge Mystic
Our T3/T4: Guide Trigger On, Snap into Brainstorm, Guide Trigger, Blocks.

This is the decklist I'm currently running, and I'd appreciate some critique/suggestions on it.

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Steppe Lynx
3x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
3x Price of Progress
2x Sylvan Library

1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
2x Plateau

SB:
3x Ancient Grudge
4x R.E.B.
1x Pyroblast
1x Thrun, The Last Troll
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon


It's a bit slower out of the gate than decks with the four by four set of aggressive one drops, but the burn reach is nice, Price is always the nuts against the decks I need it against, (Disclaimer, I haven't hit High Tide yet), and Sylvan Library can sometimes just win games.

I was considering adding a 3rd Sylvan to the Md, but I wouldn't know where to start cutting things.

[jandax]

Each unto their own. It's loose play to land a SFM on turn two against a deck that opened with Goblin Guide...

My advice, let testing and quantifiable results sway your oppinion, and not how things can play out on paper. As far as adding a third Library, you can go the Hatfield route and jam three in there, I love that card too, but it does not fit into any curve and is a better topdeck than anything else. Keep your threats dense and stay at two. You'll probably still be happy drawing it, I know I am. Why [on Earth] are you [still] playing four Lightning Helix? Zoo mirrors? Just curious. It was good in the face of Mental Misstep, and the occasional Storm/Aggro match where lifegain mattered.

[Richard Cheese]

It's like some kind of double-post clusterfuck in here!

On post-mm: I don't know if Zoo is going to be great at large events, just because the hivemind is saying combo is back, so everyone and their mother is going to be running TES or High Tide. I would personally run something with disruption until we see if the crop of Aggro-control archetypes that have been dominating the past couple months can adapt to a more combo-heavy meta.

@Aggro's list: I think running guide or not depends on what kind of Zoo strategy you want to take. If you're running something more like cat sligh (which it looks like you are), you might want to try 4 Guides instead of 3x Ape and 1x Pridemage. I'm personally not a huge fan of Guide, but then I prefer a list that's a bit slower but has a slightly better mid game. With your list, you're really hoping to just overrun and get in as much creature damage as early as possible to put them in burn range by the time they drop some defenders. I guess it's the same line of logic as PtE over StP - you're willing to trade a mid-game advantage for extra damage, because you really don't want to see anything past turn 4 anyway.

One change I would definitely make though is -1 PoP, +1 Chain Lightning. PoP is a great finisher, but Chain is more versatile. I'd probably cut a Helix for the 4th Path as well.

[dsck]

Since Mental Misstep is effectively gone, for the next couple GPT's I'll be taking Zoo for a number of reasons. In an unknown metagame, it's best to play to one's strengths. Zoo is looking pretty good in a field of pet decks people will undoutibly be bringing back to the tables.

I doubt people play their pet decks @ GPT's.

[Curby]

Competitive pet decks like Enchantress and Death and Taxes, or pet decks like tribal Vampires and Stasis? Seems like there's always some of the former at large events regardless of the level.

Re: meta, people seem to be predicting a rise of combo again, which makes me wonder if Zoo's really the best bet.

[Goin Aggro]

Re: meta, people seem to be predicting a rise of combo again, which makes me wonder if Zoo's really the best bet.

Although a lot of people are saying that combo is going to take the meta now, combo wasn't especially dominant before misstep, and there isn't really a reason to suspect that it's going to be the end all right now.

I can't imagine there were legions of combo players practicing and perfecting their evil craft in preparation for a day that they might live to see without mental misstep, who are now all ready to unleash a storm/tide (Ha) of tendrils upon us.

Now, that said, High Tide is going to be a major part of the metagame again, and we'll have to look out for it, but I can imagine for every decent high tide or other combo player, there will be three or four new combo players who don't know all the ins and outs of their deck and are just going to attempt to take advantage of the supposed upcoming combo free for all (And suck while doing it).

That said, I play in LA, so, I'm prepping for combo. Teegs, Canonists, Full suite of blasts, shits going down in my sideboard.

Our deck is already one of the most finely tuned killing machines available in the metagame. Our lists are (Mostly) tuned, and now that we don't have to worry about misstep, we know the one drop is going to stick unless they give up a lot of tempo (Daze) or CA (Force) in exchange. While people are still adjusting and tuning their decklists to the new meta, we'll be ready with a ridiculously fast clock, and punish anyone for not putting presence on the board.

[Richard Cheese]

It's not that combo got any better than pre misstep, it's just that it's getting tons of hype now, and if it places in the next couple SCGs, you can bet a lot of people will jump on that bandwagon.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I can't imagine there were legions of combo players practicing and perfecting their evil craft in preparation for a day that they might live to see without mental misstep, who are now all ready to unleash a storm/tide (Ha) of tendrils upon us.

You laugh now...

[jandax]

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what is happening. Combo players shelved their decks or picked up other combo like Hive Mind for example, now they can play with their love affairs without much to worry about.

plus, @goblinaggro: playing SFM on turn two, especially against a deck that starts wtih Goblin Guide, is loose play. I see your point but results from quality play testing are more effective than running through interactions in a vacuum

[Borealis]

Here are my thoughts:

Play 1-drop Zoo still. It's fast enough to put pressure on everyone, including Storm-style decks. Running 3 Teegs and some number of other anti-Combo hate (+4 Red Blasts!) in the board seems like a great idea as well in the coming month. Relying on your speed and consistency to smash in the slower decks is still a reasonable trade-off for the sketchy Storm matchup.

Helix seems slow unless you face a ton of Red Decks and Zoo mirrors. And in the Zoo mirror, you should win anyway because you know your deck better than your opponent right? So just run 4x Chain Lightning instead, and Bolt your opponent at least twice a game happily. Even without Misstep we can't have those Mystics sticking around for a turn. I like 4x Bolt, 4x Chain, and 2-4 slots of some combination of Fireblast and Price of Progress in the main, usually 2 and 2. If Counterbalance and ANT become wildly popular again, I'd probably just run 3x Fireblast and leave the PoPs in the board. Having access to this much burn allows for us to apply more pressure in the early game, knowing we can actually close the midgame out with spells. And ANT players are terrified of that Fireblast/Bolt in your hand.

Goblin Guide has his drawbacks, no doubt, especially against Brainstorm and other savvy Library-Manipulating players. However, he still represents the closest thing to Wild Nacatl 5-8, as they both are reliably capable of dishing out upwards of 6 damage in the first few turns if left unmolested. Kird Apes of the world maybe better in the long run at a big tournament, but I still like the explosiveness of "Turn 1, Wild Nacatl, Turn 2, Goblin Guide, Goblin Guide...." Rare, I know, but you get the point. Redundancy is key in Zoo, and the first turn we WANT to drop the fastest threat in the format, EVERY time. Kird Ape against Combo is somewhat laughable, but they will respect Goblin Guide hands down. On that note, I LOVE love love Steppe Lynx, but unless you're running 24 lands with 12 or more fetches, it's just not that reliable of a kitty. Squeeze in 14 fetchlands and maybe you're in business, but short of that I think you will be disappointed more often than not. A 4/5 once is not as good as a 4/5 for three turns in a row.

Sylvan Library is one of the best cards in our deck, and I can say it has definitely won me games that would have been far out of reach otherwise. However, I think 1 or 2 is the correct number to run, no more. It's not a card we want to see in multiples, but seeing one every other game is just about right.

It's been awhile since I've played Zoo, as I've been focusing on building a proper Junk collection, but I'm getting the hankering to sling Green and Red spells at Mach speed again. Here is the first draft of the list I will have together in the coming weeks:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
2 Dismember

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blasts
1 Pyroblast
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Maindeck is pretty close to what I'll actually play, but the number of Lavamancers/Guides/Apes could change depending on what shakes out. I want to try out Dismember in place of Path to Exile, as I am also attempting to "splash" a couple Wastelands. I haven't felt the need to try this before, but mana denial can be very strong alongside the pressure that Zoo can apply. It's Experimental, I will let you know how it turns out. It's possible the Horizon Canopy just needs to be the 4th Windswepth Heath to support the somewhat shaky manabase. I may also cut the Wastelands for another Basic and another spell, as 21 lands has usually been my number.

Sideboard is just a guess, I haven't actually gotten to run the 3x Singleton Stoneforge package, and am excited to playtest it even if her time has passed. I was too busy burning the Mystics out of my own way before to actually get a chance to PLAY with them, and god forbid I actually build a U/W Standard deck.... Anyway, the lack of GY hate is very apparent, hence the 5th Red Blast for matchups like Reanimator and Storm. I lost the last round of the Provvy GP to Reanimator on the bubble, so fuck that deck, eat my Red Blasts. Graveyard hate is always sketchy at best, and we can win the Dredge matchup without it with the right kind of luck. Also, as mentioned above, I expect regular Combo to be more popular than Dredge and Reanimator in the coming weeks, but that could change. Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge because CounterTop will be back, and if it's actually good again (some seem to doubt it will be), then 2x Grip is probably the better call there. Gaddock is better in my opinion that Canonist in a variety of matchups, but she will be on the sidelines waiting just in case.

Thoughts?

[Curby]

The threads I've been tracking (e.g. Merfs and Zoo) have all been double posting like mad.

I like the idea of smaller Zoo. I'm using GSZ to maintain some amount of flexibility and reach (Goyf for 3 is still worth it) instead of running actual 3-drops. Also, Rancor's great for pushing damage through chump blockers. Yeah, yeah potential 2-for-1s. I run them anyway.

[Curby]

The threads I've been tracking (e.g. Merfs and Zoo) have all been double posting like mad.

I like the idea of smaller Zoo. I'm using GSZ to maintain some amount of flexibility and reach (Goyf for 3 is still worth it) instead of running actual 3-drops. Also, Rancor's great for pushing damage through chump blockers. Yeah, yeah potential 2-for-1s. I run them anyway.

[Goin Aggro]

I feel like having the 4x Qasali MB isn't quite so necessary anymore now that Stoneblade isn't going to be a little bit on the decline without misstep. (Right?)

I was considering cutting my hate suite of

4x Qasali MB and
3x Grudge SB

to

2-3x Qasali Mb (Maybe 2 and go for the goblin guides)
and
2x Grudge
1x Grip

Do you think the five slots of 2-2-1 is enough? Or will Batterskull and friends still be playing a big part in the new meta?

[jandax]

That's just it, we're going to have to see how the new format unfolds. Zoo is going to straight up lose to a few competitive decks, it's a risk one takes. Try out less art/enc hate and see how it works out, but only if it's being replaced by something that strengthens your strategy (quicker beats in GG for a sligh version, or Elspeth for Big Zoo just for example)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

SB:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress
3 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip

Could you explain the board? I know it's similar to the board you have linked in your article posted in this thread some 50 pages ago.

I'm thinking of picking up this deck for a large tournament soon.

The Tormod's Crypts, Krosan Grips, Chokes and PoP's are fairly self-explanatory. But could you explain the usage of Sulfuric Vortex and Null Rod?

I'm assuming they're some sort of nod to Affinity, Painter, MUD, Batterskull.dec and storm combo.

Am I missing anything?

And also, do you think Red Elemental Blast isn't necessary anymore? I feel like jamming 4 into that board, but that could be wrong.

[jandax]

Sulfuric Vortex is the nuts. In just about every matchup it's an easy board in, and it's a non-creature, non-combat win condition. Enchantments are hard to get rid of, and no one will be ahead on the curve and have enough for it. It's not a three drop, either. It's one of those cards that's best to draw later in the game, but having it in the opening hand isn't a dud either. In a nutshell, here's waht it does:

consistent source of damage
hard to remove permanent
In off cases, it helps against lifegain (also think Batterskull)
it doesn't have beef with Mr. Teeg


Drop it when the game is in your favor and it's an inevitable clock many can't handle. Try it out, I'm sure you might like it.

Null Rods are a pet card. There's a lot of affinity around here, never mind artifacts in general. Instead of one shot removal spells, an colorless artifact that has a state based effect, thus more impact on the game.

I used to have four Blasts, but right now, I'm going out on a limb and using Choke/PoP in place of them. It's not a wrong or right choice, it's simply a different one. I wouldn't fault anyone for packing Blasts.

[jnosrati]

First, my current list. Testing goblin guides at the moment.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 steppe lynx
3 Goblin Guide--> testing, not as great against countertop i think, but still, quick damage
3 Qasali Pridemage --> still scared to cut another, but i want to
3 Gaddock teeg --> amazing, really.
3 grim lavamancer


4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile

2 Sylvan Library
2 POP--> They're good, but I almost always board them out

Lands : 20
12 Fetches
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 plains

Sideboard:
5 Red Elemental Blast/ pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 surgical extraction --> stall enough for dredge and rip loam apart
2 choke
2 grip


Comments :
Steppe lynx is a bomb with 20 lands. No more needed. Considering adding wasteland, not really because of steppe lynx

Topics to discuss :
On POP - adding wl means removing pop. in my fast list, the wl mana seems irrelevant, also, gg/ path give them lands. However path on upkeep and gg draws dont give much tempo, just lands. Also, I board poorly with this card. Generally, in matchups where i want more cards from board, the list is tight, so i take out pop. Its probably often a poor decision.

On wasteland. I really want to talk about whether or not its worth it over pop. steppe lynx landrops are rarely needed. My feeling is that wl is only good in slower decks, but still not positive it wouldnt work here.
On guide.....it sucks vs countertop. still, i like it for the moment.

On sideboard: choke- never sure as to whether or not to bring in choke vs multicolored blue decks, as I take out tempo for a more late game answer-->not what zoo does
comments? help?
Blasts. Some decks all 5 are good. Somtimes it's a bit harder as I feel like I bringing in all 5 is losing too much utility. comments?

[Borealis]

Still kicking it in the top 16 folks! And Combo was out in FORCE this weekend!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41099

[Warr]

Thanks, I feel like I got a little lucky though. In order this weekend, I played:

Legacy Challenge:
Zoo (W 2-1)
Goblins (W 2-0)
High tide (W 2-1)
Hive Mind / Show and Tell (L 0-2)
3-1 Overall

Main Event:
Reanimator (L 1-2)
Merfolk (W 2-0)
Enchantress (W 2-0)
Charbelcher (W 2-1)
Esper Stoneblade (W 2-1)
Hive Mind / Show and Tell (L 0-2)
Zoo (W 2-0)
Storm Combo /w Doomsday (W 2-1)
Countersliver (W 2-1)

A slightly better report to follow later.

--Warr

[groupcelebration]

For the people who always ask about playing Zoo without Goyf, here's a list that I got 3rd with at the San Diego Games and Comics tournament.

The only thing I'd change is losing the Stoneforge Mystics for another Basilisk Collar and possibly a Qasali or Burn spell.

The Gaddock Teegs didn't do much for me, but one tournament is a small sample size.

4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
4 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
2 qasali pridemage
2 gaddock teeg
2 stoneforge mystic

1 basilisk colar
1 umezawa's jitte

4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
3 chain lightning
3 path to exile

2 sylvan library

1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains

4 arid mesa
4 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath

2 taiga
3 plateau
2 savannah

sideboard
3 ethersworn cannonist
3 price of progress
3 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
1 path to exile
1 gaddock teeg
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus

In the tournament I beat UWB Blade, TES Combo, Imperial Painter, Delver of Secrets Threshold deck (he has a report in the reports section. He mulled to oblivion in game 3 so not sure this really counts as me winning. I think he had the advantage in that game being on the play.) I had a close loss to Team America and got blown out by UW Stoneblade.

I think if you're going Goyf-less you shouldn't be trying to replace him with another creature because you can't. You need a different gameplan. I decided to use equipment to make my little guys more relevant in combat against bigger creatures. The life gain and deathtouch from Collar was relevant more than once.

I also played with the idea of replacing Goblin Guide with Loam Lion, but I never wanted to fetch a plains first turn, and you often have to fetch basics in games 2-3 depending on the hand you draw.

[Curby]

Congrats on the finish. What led you down the Goyf-less path in the first place? Is it a budget issue, or further dependence on the graveyard, or other reasons? I totally agree that the deck doesn't need 3-drops in an environment with little Countertop and no Misstep, so I've dropped all Knights from the 75. That said, Goyf gives enough for 1G that he's still a staple for me.

My small Zoo deck runs Goyf instead of Guide, STP instead of Path, Rancor instead of equipment, and GSZ instead of some of the burn. I'm somewhat interested in trying the "sure, have more land" build, though the card advantage/tempo nerd in me cringes at the idea.

P.S.: Did you ever put Collar on Lavamancer to start mowing down fatties? That seems like a fun trick.

[groupcelebration]

Mostly a budget thing for me. I don't have the cards and often saw people asking about replacements and decided to try equipment. Swords and Jitte tend to be too expensive and Stoneforge was definitely too slow. Basilisk Collar costing 3 mana total (play + equip) instead of 4 or 5 is definitely relevant and fits better into your expectations of how many lands you'll have in play during a game.

The tournament I played in was for 4 foil Goyfs so I thought it would be amusing to see if I could win them with Goyf-less Zoo. Ha.

Goyf definitely strengthens some of the deck's matchups. Mostly those against other decks with Goyf or Batterskull. But I think against some of the other Goyf/Knight decks, Price of Progress is just as good if not better. And with Spell Snare catching on in more blue decks, I'm feeling comfortable not running him.

I will tell you that attacking a Goblin Guide into a blue deck's brainstorm makes you want to punch yourself in the face, but more often than not I found hitting for 2 extra damage on the first turn was important. If they don't draw a land, it's actually great for you because now you know what to play around.

I think when you're running guide you're just more all-in on winning early. Rancor is interesting, but getting 2 for 1'd seems annoying too.

There was only one game where I had Lavamancer and Basilisk Collar on the table together, but I was already winning so I didn't get to enjoy that one.

[Curby]

On one hand, you can get 2-for-1'ed, and it's happened to me. No two ways about it, and I won't play it down. Also, it does decrease consistency by adding the prerequisite of a creature. Hopefully we can agree this is minor in a deck with a ton of dudes, but I bring it up for completeness.

On the other hand, I'd argue it's better than Goblin Guide on turn 2+. It's the same two damage per turn for one mana, and any Goblin Guide that gives them a land and is then killed is also a 2-for-1 exchange. So why is Rancor better? Our weenies can be easily killed off in combat, and our Goyfs/Knights can be chumped. Rancor helps both of these cases.

Let's say they have a 3/3 or 4/4 untapped and you have a Kird Ape. Would you rather have a Rancor or a Goblin Guide? Sure, Bolt+Ape could kill a 4/4, but that's also a 2-for-1 exchange. If it's Rancor, recast it on your next creature and keep swinging.

Let's say they have an army of tokens on defense, and you have a Goyf. Would you rather have a Guide or a Rancor?

It may seem strange that i'm comparing Guide to Rancor, but they're both 2 recurring damage for one mana with a potential for card disadvantage. In short, if you're willing to run Guide/Path despite the downsides, you should seriously consider Rancor. I can't say that Rancor's definitely better, but I've yet to be convinced that it's definitely worse.

[Warr]

Here's my report from SCG this weekend. First, the decklist:

Maindeck:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile

Legendary Creatures
3 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Path to Exile
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I basically ran a cat Zoo list similar to Pat Cox's. With Misstep out of the format, I didn't quite feel the need to overload the 1 slot so heavily so I cut goblin guides for +1 Gaddock Teeg (expected to see combo), +2 Sylvan Library (basically the nuts), and +1 Taiga to support the slightly higher curve. The sideboard is most of the usual suspects, although I tried to make sure I had access to extra copies of certain cards (a 4th REB, a 2nd Jitte, and a 3rd Pridemage) so it’s a little less diversified.

I played Zoo because with the Misstep banning, I didn’t feel comfortable enough making adjustments to Stoneblade to adjust for the having that extra free protection. The decks I had the most experience with besides that were Goblins (pre-Misstep) and this, which I played mainly as a gauntlet deck against my teammates. I went with Zoo over Goblins because I was concerned about combo and Zoo had a slightly faster clock (threatening turn 4 kills) and access to some slightly better answers to combo.

A lot of the games are starting to become a blur and I didn’t keep my notes so some of these matches are short. Apologies in advance.

Legacy Challenge:
Round 1 – Cat Zoo
Game 1, I outdraw her and win a battle of attrition.
SB: -3 Teeg, -1 Chain, -2 Sylvan, +3 Pridemage, +1 Path, +2 Jitte
Game 2, I get double wasted and get run over. Did not quite expect that out of cat zoo. Ouch.
Game 3, I fetch a little more carefully for basics and win another battle of attrition.
1-0

Round 2 – Goblins
Game 1, He plays a bunch of 1/1s off of Mogg War Marshall and gets some incremental value out of Ringleader but I just grind him out with 2/3s and 3/3s.
SB: -3 Teeg, -1 Chain, -2 Sylvan, +3 Pridemage, +1 Path, +2 Jitte
Game 2, He opens with vial but has no real play until vial ticks up to 5 for Siege-Gang and by then it’s too late.
I have to admit I played pretty terrible this round and his draws weren’t good either but against some matchups just turning your guys sideways wins.
2-0

Round 3 – High Tide
Game 1, I run him over before he gets anything going.
SB: -3 Path, -1 Grim, +4 REB
Game 2, I force him to go off on turn 3 and he gets there with the help of drawing 2 high tides before the spiral and after the spiral. I don't feel bad here because usually if you force them to go for it that early they won’t be successful.
Game 3, I force him to go off early again but this time I have a REB for his first high tide. He has a second high tide and goes digging in response to protect high tide #1, but I resolve REB and it puts enough of a crimp in his mana that he fizzles.
3-0

Round 4 – Hive Mind/Show and Tell
Game 1, He has turn 1 Island, Ponder, turn 2 City of Traitors, Show and Tell for Hive Mind. I lose to 2 pacts.
SB: -3 Path, -1 Grim, +4 REB. (I was running short on time so sign up and begin so I was missing Metamorphs in my SB that day).
Game 2, See game 1, only replace Hive Mind with Emrakul. Oh well.
3-1, good for 6 packs.

My Hive Mind opponent’s record was 3-0-1, with his draw being an ID with a friend in round 1. Hive Mind is obviously still a deck. I picked up 2 Metamorphs for Sunday to finish out my board.

The Main Event:

Round 1 – Josh Weinandy, Reanimator
Game 1, He gets Jin-Gitaxis online followed by Empyrial Archangel and while I’m able to push enough through to kill it once or twice, it’s kind of hard to keep up with drawing 7 a turn.
SB: Can’t remember, I know I cut Teeg for Pridemage and added Path, Crypts, and Metamorph.
Game 2, I run him over.
Game 3, He doesn’t get to draw 7 a turn but gets a wider variety of huge beasts in play such as Sundering Titan which does me in.
0-1

I just realized as I was putting names into the report that this guy won the whole thing. Thanks for the tiebreak help!

Round 2 – Justin Adams, Merfolk
Game 1, I run him over.
SB: -3 Teeg, -2 Sylvan, -4 Chain, +3 Pridemage, +2 Jitte, +4 REB. I can’t remember if Path #4 went in.
Game 2, I run him over again.
All other things being equal, I feel good having a deck that beats fish.
1-1

Round 3 – Edward Smith, Charbelcher
Game 1, I get turn 1’ed.
SB: -3 Path, +3 Pridemage
Game 2, He opens with ESG->Tinder wall and I kill it. I think this holds him off enough for me to whittle down his life and amass a small army. He eventually goes off and makes 12 goblins but after some creature combat he runs out of guys and I remove enough blockers to win.
Game 3, He mulligans into a hand with all mana and no action and he doesn’t draw into any action. I find out afterwards he only has 8 business spells and suggest Burning Wish to help his threat count a little.

Game 1, He gets his engine started but he is forced to start blocking with enchantresses which slows him down enough for me to kill him before he gets Solitary online.
SB: -3 Path, +3 Pridemage
Game 2, My draw is terrible as I swing multiple turns with a 1/1 Kird Ape and a Grim. Unfortunately his is worse as he only draws 1 forest. His next land is a Serra’s Sanctum many turns later.
3-1

Round 5 – Adam Tukel, Esper Stoneblade
Game 1, He has 2 land and whiffs on a brainstorm. I kill 2 Bobs and a Stoneforge before running him over. I do see Stifle out of his deck on my fetches and Daze.
SB: -3 Teeg, +3 Pridemage. I don’t bring in REB because his most important spells aren’t blue. I may have brought in Jittes to fight any that he may have had.
Game 2, I mull to 4 before getting a hand without 5 lands or 0 lands. My 2 spells and 2 lands do fairly well in the face of stifle and wasteland but he runs me over with Batterskull + SoFaF. We resolve to play a real game for game 3.
Game 3, I stumble on mana again including having one of my basics hit by Vindicate but eventually draw into land. He gets pretty flooded and draws all of his equipment (including Jitte and Mortarpod) but no threats to put them on. I manage to kill his Batterskull and Jitte with Pridemages which buys me quite a bit of extra time. With time running out, I decide to race against his Bob + Sword and get him to 2 before he decides to not gamble on blind Bob reveals and sacs him to Mortarpod. Sylvan Library gets online as toward the end here which was worth its weight in gold by drawing me fetches 2 turns in a row to pull out of land pockets, finally fetching me a lethal burn spell + a backup just in case.
4-1

Round 6 – Chris VanMeter, Hive Mind / Show and Tell
Game 1, You can see the coverage on SCG but I get run over.
SB: -3 Path, +4 REB +2 Metamorph. I can’t remember what else I cut, probably a Grim and 2 Sylvans.
Game 2, See game 1 but it takes longer. I'm pretty sure I make the right call by REBing Intuition #1 but #2 and #3 get him there.
4-2

Round 7 – Dan Musser, Zoo
Game 1, I have 3 burn spells for his first 3 guys and he draws a couple more land than I do which is enough. I generally outdraw him and I think I kill him with a spare burn spell after he staves off a lethal attack with a Helix.
SB: -3 Teeg, -1 Chain, -2 Sylvan, +3 Pridemage, +1 Path, +2 Jitte
Game 2, More of the same. He is forced to Path 3 various cats where I am able to Path his Goyfs. It’s another battle of attrition but I stay slightly ahead in the race. Towards the end I draw into a lot of burn and double bolt him from 5, after going into the tank trying to determine if he just drew a Helix. If you’re reading this Dan, that wasn’t supposed to be a slowroll—apologies if it came off that way.
5-2

Aside on sideboarding:

After the match we talk about the sideboard plan for the mirror. He had too many cards to take out so he still had Gaddock Teeg in after board, but he was surprised that I was taking out Sylvan Library since the mirror is all about attrition (true) and that card selection gives you a big edge (also true, I don't doubt that). I bring this up because I think it's a good question and I honestly don't know the answer.

Here's my line of thought: Sylvan is an all-around good card for game 1, but all the cards I bring in are immediate action cards to win Goyf wars and Jitte wars. Sylvan doesn’t immediately impact the board and you’ll probably never pay 4 to draw off it in the mirror, so it doesn’t shine as much as it does against say, control.

The same might also be said for having Sylvan in vs. combo. I was cutting 1-3 Grims vs. various combo decks because he’s not good in the early game—the turns that matter—but I maybe I should look at cutting Sylvan instead.

So anyway, I’d like to hear your sideboard plans for different matchups—what might you have done differently? Is there any way to shore up some of the tougher combo matches without completely sacrificing other matchups? I think this 75 has most of the tools you need for the field but I think there’s a something to be desired from some of my sideboard plans. I try to have a neat, cohesive plan for every matchup but with the openness of Legacy, that’s obviously impossible. Let me know what you think though.

Round 8 – Collin Mustain, Storm Combo
Game 1, I see a swamp, a Duress, and an underground before I run him over.
SB: Not sure what he’s playing, I don’t think I change anything.
Game 2, he goes off and casts Doomsday from 19 life. I think I might get there with a lot of burn but his DDay stack is something like Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tendrils. Cracking LEDs in response to draw spells, he draws the rest of his deck and kills me. Pretty cool way to die though.
SB: I see the rest of his deck in the RFG pile and it’s mostly Storm combo. I think my overall board was -3 Path, +3 REB, on the off chance I can catch him by surprise with a REB on a draw spell as he’s going off.
Game 3, I have a good start and get him low enough to turn off the DDay line of play if it came up again and he dies. Turns out he draw multiple tutors but 0 acceleration.
6-2 and playing for Top 16

Round 9 – Donivan Abraham, Countersliver
Wow does that deck take me back.
Game 1, He doesn’t draw Crystalline and I burn 3 Sinew Slivers off the board and run him over.
SB: I think I start with the -3 Teeg, -1 Chain, -2 Sylvan, +3 Pridemage, +1 Path, +2 Jitte
Game 2, He stabilizes with Crystalline in play and builds up an army of guys. He also has 2 Relics going which kept both graveyards empty. I didn’t draw Goyf but I had to be tricky and use fetches and burn spells in response to Relic activations to get Grim activations in. I start suiciding creatures into his wall of slivers to get more graveyard fodder and decide not to crack a fetch to play out an extra guy. He paths my Grim and kills me from 17 life. Oops.
SB: -3 Grim (too much work to keep him going) +3 REB to try and get lucky and counter a Crystalline.
Game 3, He doesn’t play any early creatures, only Paths and STPs but I keep drawing and playing cats FOR DAYS. I think I drew like 3 Lions, 3 Nacatls, and a Pridemage. He has a relic but eventually he has to run out slivers unprotected and start trading. He has a relic but pops it, looking for some answer I think. The graveyards fill up and I cast a freshly drawn Goyf at 3/4 to help clean up.

Mad props to Donivan though, this was his first SCG Open and he made a run at Top 16 with a very cool deck.

7-2 and top 16!

Final impressions on the deck: I thought the deck was pretty consistent and put people on a pretty fast clock. The matches I lost this weekend though were more to decks doing “unfair” things (cough—Show and Tell—cough) and I think Legacy is a format where you should be the one doing unfair things. So while I think this is a great deck and I probably would not change a card in the 75, I’m not really 100% sure it’s where you want to be.

That said, killing people on turn 4 with cats and burn spells isn’t exactly be fair either so who knows. I do know it was the best option available to me at the time and turning a bunch of guys sideways was a lot of fun and paid off.

--Warr

[groupcelebration]

It may seem strange that i'm comparing Guide to Rancor, but they're both 2 recurring damage for one mana with a potential for card disadvantage. In short, if you're willing to run Guide/Path despite the downsides, you should seriously consider Rancor. I can't say that Rancor's definitely better, but I've yet to be convinced that it's definitely worse.

Interesting. Your argument seems fair. I think I might throw a couple in for the next tournament and see what happens!

[trivial_matters]

@Warr: Congrats on the good finish.

I'm testing a Zoo list more or less in Cox' vein, but with Pridemage replacing Goblin Guide as well as 2 x Price of Progress (main) and 2 x Wasteland.
While this may seem strange at first sight, I want to test it a bit longer. Out of the few games I've played, I haven't noticed any issues. Anyone want to chime in regarding this?

[kabards]

i just got top4 yesterday here in our country playing this version of zoo.

Creatures : 25

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nactl
4 Kird Ape
3 Loam Lion
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Spells : 15

4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

Lands : 20

4 Windswepth Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:

3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Price of Progress
1 Ancient Grudge

==========================

1st Game - BR Goblins 2-0

1st game i win via bunch of nactl, loam lion and kird ape + a few lightning bolts

2nd game i put on my SB - IN : 1 Phyrexian Metamorph + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Price of Progress + 1 Aven Mindcensor - OUT : 1 Path to Exile , 1 Kird Ape, 1 Chain Lightning, 1 Tarmogoyf

2nd Game - B/W Aggro - 2-1

1st game i win via tarmo + nactl and qasali pridemage

2nd game SB : IN : 1 Ancient Grudge , 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Price of Progress : OUT : 1 Path to Exile, 2 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Chain Lightning : i loose because of multiple wasteland and a serra avenger with sword of fire and ice

3rd game : i win via swarm of 1cc creatures break his sword using Ancient Grudge

3rd Game - RDW - 2-0

1st game i won via tarmogoyf + burn spells

2nd game won via tarmogoyf + burn spells also SB: IN 1 Aven Mindcensor : OUT : 1 Path to Exile

4th Game - B/R Gobs - 1-2

1st game i won via aggresive moves 1st turn nactl 2nd turn nactl + nactl

2nd game i loose because of an awful mulligan for 5 and locked up by rishadan port

3rd game also loose via mulligan for 4 : SB - IN : 1 Phyrexian Metamorph + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Price of Progress + 1 Aven Mindcensor - OUT : 1 Path to Exile , 1 Kird Ape, 1 Chain Lightning, 1 Tarmogoyf

5th Game - Rock - 2-1

1st game i loose the die roll and he played Knight of the Reliquary 1st turn via 2 Mox Diamond and 1 Savannah and there's nothing in my hand but a piece of lightning bolt nactl and kird ape.. i did'nt get path to exile during this game

2nd game - win because of a hoard of nactl and tarmogoyf : SB: IN : 1 Price of Progress, 1 Aven Mindcensor, 2 Relic of Progenitus : OUT : 2 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Chain Lightning, 1 Kird Ape

3rd game - i win via aggro 1st turn nactl 2nd turn nactl , nactl for the 2nd time and i finished it via burn

6th Game - Intentional Draw vs Zoo

----------------------------------

playoffs :

top8 vs my team mate Dredge Midrange : we agree that i will play to go to top4

top4 vs UW Snapcaster ( Wizard Deck )

1st game loose via Vendilion Clique equipped with a multiple equipment : SOFI and SOLAS

2nd game loose because of multiple Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster's Ability i think he used his Swords to Plowshare 6 times and 3 Path to Exile.

=============================

im thinking to change my board 1 Tormod's Cypt and 2 Relic of Progenitus to 3 Purify the Grave but i still need to test it up for our near big event legacy tournament this coming oct. 23

=============================

im not that very good in english if there's a wrong sentence sorry for that :laugh:

[Richard Cheese]

@kabards:

Interesting list, how have the Revokers been? I'm also curious about how the singletons in the SB worked out.

[Einherjer]

Hey im new to Zoo, what I was wondering, why is no1 playing BigZoo, like with KotR and GSZ. Not that Id be sad, Id love to play FastZoo but what happened to the Big one?
Greetings

[Richard Cheese]

I think Big Zoo kinda fell out of favor because the meta shifted to NO-RUG and StoneBlade, both decks with very strong mid games. Zoo was also one of, if not the only, deck that was able to load up on redundant 1-drops to overload MM without drastically changing its gameplan.

[kabards]

@kabards:

Interesting list, how have the Revokers been? I'm also curious about how the singletons in the SB worked out.

it helps me alot stopping some good cards like SGC + Aether Vial in my matchup against B/R Gobs.. B/W or UW Version it helps me alot to deal with stoneforge and other equipments.. vs Dredge you can deal Phantasmagorian or Putrid Imp and it helps alot.. for combo you can stopped the usage of LED. it also helps me to delay them.

[Warr]

@trivial_matters: Price can be good, I considered running it in the board in the hopes of completely blowing someone out with it while behind but in the end there wasn't room for it. If you run it, it probably takes the place of a couple helix. Looking back at my matches, it probably would have finished a couple of them earlier but there were also matchups where they are doinng their thing on T2/T3 and price doesn't help you as much there.

Same story for wasteland, there just wasn't room because out of 21 land, all of them should produce colored or you open yourself up way to much to color screw or getting wastelanded into oblivion. I think if you run waste, you replace some other spell with it (helix or teeg) and the deck would play differently as a result.

--Warr

[Einherjer]

Hows this deck positioned in the new Metagame? Any experiences yet?
Is it fast enough?

[BantFTW]

I think that just for now zoo isn't a really good option.
Against control without sfm (if it can come online)
or NOPRO you have a good matchup.
Against combo, you just loose.
And maverick isn't a really good matchup either because
they can give protection or they've got to many big creatures.

[dsck]

Snapcaster is a beating against Zoo, plus all the combo you are bound to lose G1. G2 you'd have to waste a lot of SB slots and you still most likely lose. However if you get lucky with matchups or your meta is full of Merfolk Zoo just might be good.

@BantFTW, NO PRO decks arent good matchups IMO.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Hows this deck positioned in the new Metagame? Any experiences yet?
Is it fast enough?

With Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl and a variety of cheap efficient burn it seems fast enough just overpowered at the moment.

In relation to the present combo match up, with Hive Mind and Sneak Show kind of losing popularity and Storm, ANT and Belcher all making top 16 appearances at recent SCG open series events since the banning of Mental Misstep, Mindbreak Trap looks like a decent combo answer for Zoo again along with a number of Teeg and/ or Canonist.

[Vandalize]

Cat Sligh/Goyf Sligh is the way to go. The metagame got much faster after the banning of Mental Misstep, and Zoo is still a good candidate to race a lot of decks because of it's consistency and explosiveness. Natacl, Goyf, Goblin Guide and Price of Progress are needed now more than ever.

[Goin Aggro]

We were evicted from DTB? Gah. That's crap. Especially because it was using the NO RUG and Blade Control numbers that don't even work now given Misstep's Banning.

[angel882]

Hi, went 4-0 in a local tournament. Played against GW Maverick (2-0), False Cure (2-1), Rg Goblin (2-0) and The Gate (2-1). Played with this list

1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah

2 Loam Lion
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx

2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast

SB:
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

I was going to play 4 Mindbreak Trap in my sb but when I got to the tournament I noticed that there were only one combo player so I replaced them with (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroblast, Jitte, Library).
The deck was great, I just kept drawing threats all the time. And because the meta was aggro heavy Volcanic Fallout was the MVP of that day.
First round the Maverick player was totally surprised when I removed three of his creatures TWICE!! Six creatures for two cards -> not bad :smile:
Volcanic Fallout did also well against Goblins. The player went mountain, Lackey, go. Turn 2 he drops SGC and I just sweep.
I think I will try Volcanic Fallout in the future because there are lot of creatures defence two or less and my own creatures can handle the two damages.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Volcanic Fallout superior to say Pyroclasm? I'm just curious how many times the 3 mana was a detriment to you advancing your own game, allowing you to follow up with Grim/Lynx/Nacatl/Lion after wiping.

[DragoFireheart]

Why isn't Zoo a DTB anymore? I read the stats and even though it didn't make the cut off, it's seeing quite a bit less play regardless. Why is that?

[Curby]

DTB updates are periodic, meaning they happen on schedule and not according to meta shifts and banning changes. If you like Zoo, continue winning with it at large events, and it'll go back into DTB the next time. (I'm not a mod and am not trying to mod. That's just my perspective.)

That said, people are anticipating the rise of combo now that Misstep is banned, and combo's a tough matchup for Zoo. We'll have to see how the meta shakes out.

[from Cairo]

Is Volcanic Fallout superior to say Pyroclasm? I'm just curious how many times the 3 mana was a detriment to you advancing your own game, allowing you to follow up with Grim/Lynx/Nacatl/Lion after wiping.

Being uncounterable is pretty gigantic against Merfolk and the TA/Tempo Thresh lists running some combination of Spellcaster, Delver, Bob or Grim. Hitting 3 can be annoying, but with Daze and Cursecatcher or Spell Snare, Pyroclasm is no better really.

Being an instant is often better against Goblins too since it's not uncommon if a Haste enabler is on board that they will extend more guys to the board pre-Combat.

[angel882]

Being uncounterable is pretty gigantic against Merfolk and the TA/Tempo Thresh lists running some combination of Spellcaster, Delver, Bob or Grim. Hitting 3 can be annoying, but with Daze and Cursecatcher or Spell Snare, Pyroclasm is no better really.

Being an instant is often better against Goblins too since it's not uncommon if a Haste enabler is on board that they will extend more guys to the board pre-Combat.

In my tournament I didn't play against blue based decks, but usually that it's uncounterable is very important. Also the instant speed is so sweet.
For example against Maverick player I attack with my Nacatl and opponent blocks it with Mother of Runes. Mother protect itself against green and before any damage you sweep the taple with Volcanic Fallout leaving your Nacatl standing alone :smile:
But if you play Pyroclasm you have to play it
1) before combat when they can save their Mother of Runes
2) after combat when your own Nacatl will also die (Mother blocks it)

I know that the double red is tricky, when people are playing so much wasteland, but I think it's not a problem. Benefits are greater than cons.

[metamet]

Mark Hinsz took top 16 this past weekend's SCG Open with Big Zoo. Here's his event report: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/11/scg-kc-report-t8-standard-t16-legacy/

Liked this logic: "Pridemage beats Stoneforge, Ooze beats Snapcaster, Lavamancer beats Delver of Secrets."

What're everyone's thoughts? Seems he was unsatisfied with Knight in the end, though.

[from Cairo]

This was a good read. I think he touched on some important observations in his "ZOOVERVIEW" at the end. It's a tough metagame to be playing agro without a means of card advantage right now, because control and agro control have such good forms available to them: Stoneforge, Snapcaster, and JaceTMS. He mentioned overextending into Engineered Explosives and Wrath of God out of their board as well.

Diversity of one's curve helps, so I can see the logic in avoiding the Cat Sligh approach. And running more burn helps against the 12x exile effects, though Price of Progress seems spotty when the control decks can afford to run mostly basics.

Personally I think more disruptive agro is better right now than the linear approach that Zoo tends to take. Decks like Goblins and Junk/Rock have the ability to better gain card advantage, while disrupting development either through discard or attacking mana.

If going with Zoo I think the line you highlighted about having answers to the major control elements is big - Qasali Pridemage, Grim Lavamancer and Scavenging Ooze are at least somewhat better suited to disrupt modern control than conventional Tarmogoyfs and Apes.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree, it was a good read.

I may be crazy (feel free to say yes), but I think Sulfuric Vortex would have been abeating against anything running Jaces. If Jace is their only significant threat on the board, Vortex can keep the clock running regardless of fatesealing your top deck or unsummoning your creatures. Vortex has a significantly faster clock attached to it than Jace as well (at least I would think so...)

I have played a limited amount of legacy zoo on MWS, and it seems that if Sylvan Library gets by counterspells, it usually lasts the rest of the game. Enchantment removal against zoo is somewhat counter-intuitive. I think that the fact that Vortex is an enchantment that avoids a good deal of zoo-hate, and also costs 3 mana to avoid Spell Snare's prevalence, is significant. He could have played Swords instead of Path to Exile alongside Vortex...meaning his Wastelands could have gone a lot further.

[Richard Cheese]

I agree, it was a good read.

I may be crazy (feel free to say yes), but I think Sulfuric Vortex would have been abeating against anything running Jaces. If Jace is their only significant threat on the board, Vortex can keep the clock running regardless of fatesealing your top deck or unsummoning your creatures. Vortex has a significantly faster clock attached to it than Jace as well (at least I would think so...)

I have played a limited amount of legacy zoo on MWS, and it seems that if Sylvan Library gets by counterspells, it usually lasts the rest of the game. Enchantment removal against zoo is somewhat counter-intuitive. I think that the fact that Vortex is an enchantment that avoids a good deal of zoo-hate, and also costs 3 mana to avoid Spell Snare's prevalence, is significant. He could have played Swords instead of Path to Exile alongside Vortex...meaning his Wastelands could have gone a lot further.

The problem with Vortex is the casting cost, cmc3 and double-red could be a real pain in the ass. I'd probably go with Punishing Fire/Groves instead. Not the same thing in terms of clock, but actually deals with Jace, and hits creatures which can be huge. Especially in a Big Zoo list where you're running Knights and (preferably) Swords over Path.

If Snapcaster is really giving every blue list 12 Swords effects, then it's probably worth stealing the GSZ package from Maverick to have access to that singleton Thrun. After seeing Maverick + P.Fires lists at the GP, it seems like a natural progression for the two decks to start seeing more overlap.

[Ziveeman]

Glad to see that Big Zoo is doing well again. With the rise of Snapcaster and lack of combo (Reanimator seems to be the only one doing well lately, and Ooze solves that problem), Big Zoo just beats up on these kind of tempo decks.

If he was unhappy with Knight of the Reliquary, perhaps Stoneforge Mystic should be given a second look. I could see cutting down to 2 Knights and trying to fit a Stoneforge package in there, which just makes the deck so much more versatile in terms of threats. Plus Sword of Body and Mind + Scavenging Ooze is just nasty.

[Koby]

If he was unhappy with Knight of the Reliquary, perhaps Stoneforge Mystic should be given a second look. I could see cutting down to 2 Knights and trying to fit a Stoneforge package in there, which just makes the deck so much more versatile in terms of threats. Plus Sword of Body and Mind + Scavenging Ooze is just nasty.

Against Snapcaster and Tempo decks, SFM is worse. KotR is at least large enough and self-sufficient to force being the Aggro player. SFM can both get Snare'd and Stifle'd. I would rather advise to add or consider Scavenging Ooze. This at least provides a method to disrupt the SCM plan, and help out in other key matchups (opposing KotR, Dredge, and Reanimator).

[Red Army]

The problem with Vortex is the casting cost, cmc3 and double-red could be a real pain in the ass. I'd probably go with Punishing Fire/Groves instead. Not the same thing in terms of clock, but actually deals with Jace, and hits creatures which can be huge. Especially in a Big Zoo list where you're running Knights and (preferably) Swords over Path.

If Snapcaster is really giving every blue list 12 Swords effects, then it's probably worth stealing the GSZ package from Maverick to have access to that singleton Thrun. After seeing Maverick + P.Fires lists at the GP, it seems like a natural progression for the two decks to start seeing more overlap.

Was that Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire comment sarcasm? I've thought about the possibility of the combo being shoved in Zoo, and the combo would work, but in games when you only draw the Grove you slow your clock down like crazy. Zoo would rather 'hand-their-opponent-a-mox' with Path to Exile than play Swords to Plowshares.

Regardless of whether it would work out or not, it is kind of over-preparing for control and small aggro, match ups Zoo is supposed to be good against on it's one. You don't need to play control with Punishing Fire if the deck is supposed to be the archetypical aggro deck in the format.


Sulfuric Vortex is also overpreparing for MUs that Zoo is supposed to be good against, only it's much worse because it is non-interactive, for kind of the same reasons Fireblast is bad, only it doesn't help out against combo. I could be completely wrong, I just don't see it being very good that often (ever since I got it in my Scourge Goblin precon, I wanted it to be good for me, but it never was). If you want to be a Burn deck post board, well I guess you can try and no one can stop you.

EDIT - My opinions of Fireblast are biased for somewhat obvious reasons and I have a strange way of comparing cards...nontheless, interactivity with Fireblast comes at such a huge cost...but can be good with KotR in play...k..

[Richard Cheese]

Was that Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire comment sarcasm? I've thought about the possibility of the combo being shoved in Zoo, and the combo would work, but in games when you only draw the Grove you slow your clock down like crazy. Zoo would rather 'hand-their-opponent-a-mox' with Path to Exile than play Swords to Plowshares.

Regardless of whether it would work out or not, it is kind of over-preparing for control and small aggro, match ups Zoo is supposed to be good against on it's one. You don't need to play control with Punishing Fire if the deck is supposed to be the archetypical aggro deck in the format.


Sulfuric Vortex is also overpreparing for MUs that Zoo is supposed to be good against, only it's much worse because it is non-interactive, for kind of the same reasons Fireblast is bad, only it doesn't help out against combo. I could be completely wrong, I just don't see it being very good that often (ever since I got it in my Scourge Goblin precon, I wanted it to be good for me, but it never was). If you want to be a Burn deck post board, well I guess you can try and no one can stop you.

EDIT - My opinions of Fireblast are biased for somewhat obvious reasons and I have a strange way of comparing cards...nontheless, interactivity with Fireblast comes at such a huge cost...but can be good with KotR in play...k..

I think you're confusing Big Zoo, which is what I'm talking about, and cat sligh/1-drop/Little Zoo. Big Zoo is decidedly a mid-range deck, and in mid-range, with Knights to fetch up Groves, I think Fires fits pretty nicely. The life-gaining seems counter-intuitive, but you aren't trying to drop 3-4 small dudes early then finish them off with burn by turn 4 in Big Zoo. Also remember that you can tap Grove for colorless without the life gain, so it's not like it's just a completely dead card without Fire. If you're running GSZ, it's even less of a drawback. How many of each is probably up for debate, but a friend of mine went 11-4 at GP Providence with Big Zoo + P.Fire + GSZ, good enough for top 64. Don't knock it until you try it I guess.

[Red Army]

Point taken, but I think big zoo is over preparing for control and small aggro, because traditional Zoo is struggling against those archetypes now, which is why no one has fun playing Zoo anymore. Marverick is more fundamentally prepared to play Grove/Fires, and benefits from it to a much greater degree, and has a better matchup against a lot of deck right now than any build of Zoo.

I have no doubt that a player with skill can still win with the deck, but the odds just seem to be against Grove/Fires, like, when you're getting ported and wasted by Goblins or D&T and you are left with one or two Groves and a bunch of 1/1s. The strategy that should have won the match-up kicks you in the nuts.

Also, there was a time when a deck had to top 8 to be considered impressive. Sure, in a huge tourney, top 16 is pretty impressive, but I see way to many instances lately where top 16s are used to justify pretty average decks.

[Richard Cheese]

I think it's interesting how Zoo has responded to recent meta shifts. Big Zoo was popular, then MM shows up. Format slows down, Zoo speeds up. MM leaves, format speeds up, Zoo slows down?

I'm all for stealing ideas from Maverick, it's a deck that continues to prove itself. I think taking the Punishing Maverick list from the GP and giving it some extra reach and agression could be a promising direction for Zoo. I just don't have much experience with Maverick (something I intend to correct soon), so I'm not sure what parts of their creature base could be cut in favor of more aggressive creatures and burn.

[Izor]

I think it's interesting how Zoo has responded to recent meta shifts. Big Zoo was popular, then MM shows up. Format slows down, Zoo speeds up. MM leaves, format speeds up, Zoo slows down?

I'm all for stealing ideas from Maverick, it's a deck that continues to prove itself. I think taking the Punishing Maverick list from the GP and giving it some extra reach and agression could be a promising direction for Zoo. I just don't have much experience with Maverick (something I intend to correct soon), so I'm not sure what parts of their creature base could be cut in favor of more aggressive creatures and burn.

Zoo and Mavericks are way more different than you think. While Zoo is just trying to be as fast as possible, Mavericks is more comparable to Death & Taxes, as an aggro deck that has loads of hate bears, tricks and answers to pretty much everything your opponents can throw at you.

Opponent goes turn one Cursecatcher? Sure, drop Mother of Runes and win. City of Brass- Putrid Imp? Well, then turn two GSZ into Scavenging Ooze. Turn one USea and Ponder? Can't hurt to turn two GSZ into Gaddock Teeg, just in case. Show and Tell- Emrakul? Well, I'll drop my KotR and search up the Karakas. Zoo is way different. It doesn't want to care what the opponent is doing.

And trying to add more aggressive creatures to Mavericks would be pretty impossible. Note that the best Maverick lists don't even play Tarmogoyf any more. The rest plays one copy. What on earth should make a deck that not even mighty Goyf is good enough for?

[Richard Cheese]

Except that Big Zoo isn't trying to win as fast as possible...

I'm just looking for something that's more aggro than Maverick, but still with some late game, like so:



Early------------------Mid------------------Late
^ ^ ^
Zoo Big Zoo Maverick



I guess it's a "have your cake and eat it too" thing. Of course there's always the chance of getting the worst of both worlds, but I thought it at least sounded like an avenue to explore.

[Red Army]

I don't want to see Zoo pick up Grove/Fires en mass, for somewhat obvious reasons :cry:, but I still think it weakens the mana-base and the general speed of Zoo's kill enough to fail at it's intended purpose enough for me to maintain a *slight* winning record. I'd still be more scared of Maverick top to bottom, or a traditional Zoo list with a skilled pilot (with one or two cards to bring in against me post board).

BTW, I think your chart does say it all, as to how one should compare Zoo/BigZoo/Mav, but Big Zoo has to streeetch itself in order to be in the middle while the others fall comfortably in their niche.

But to be fair, if the deck could impose a of fear of using Wasteland to destroy anything but Grove, like Maverick does, it protects your other lands a bit, damn it.

regardless of my joy in playing against good old Zoo, it was at it's peak when it was cleaning house of Goblins as the aggro deck to beat, and as much as the deck got it's well deserved hype, other decks built their decks with zoo in mind and changed their playstyle, new decks were made, etc. Ultimately, it seems traditional Zoo has taken over for Goblins as the most hated aggro deck in the format, so when Zoo has an anti-combo SB like it should, it lacks flexibility against the field.

edit - Big Zoo is kind of a different deck altogether though, and I shouldn't neglect to recognize it's viability. Nonetheless, aggro Zoo isn't a complete steaming pile of garbage. What's the ideal Zoo sideboard for the current meta? Let the Zoo thread return to it's regular banter!

[angel882]

Hi, played n a local tournament today and went 1-3 drop. I think the deck was better than the result shows. I played against Tempo Thress (0-2), Goblin (2-0), Canadian with Snapcaster (1-2) and Eva Green (1-2). After this lost I drop. I played today this list

1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah

2 Loam Lion
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx

2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast

SB:
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
4 Mindbreak Trap

I think Tempo Thress MU is a pretty tight. It should be favourable for zoo but with bad draws it can turn to Tempo Thress.

1 Round (Tempo Thress): I play against my friend who borrowed my deck so we know what we are playing against. 1 game: I got flooded and see only couple Tarmogoyfs which are easy to counter. 2 game: I only draw two lands which got wasted. (0-2)

2 Round (Goblin): 1 game: I only have one Lavamancer but lots of burn!!! 2 game: My opponent mulls to 5. (2-0)

3 Round (Canadian with Snapcaster): 1 game: My opp mulls to 5 and I race over him. 2 game: I mull to 6 and keep a little greedy hand with 2 Nacatl, fetch, Path, Bolt, Lynx. My land got wasted and I don't recover soon enough. 3 game: I keep hand with 2 Chain, 3 Lands, Path, Pyroblast and hope that I draw creatures. He plays Dreadnought after I have used my Path to Delver. I only saw two Lavamancer. (1-2) It's irritating to lose after you have leaded 1-0 :frown:

4 Round (Eva Green): This is not my favourite MU especially when I'm not playing Sylvan Libraries. 1 game: My opp sweeps my bord and wastes my lands. My lifepoints are under 10 after I stabilize and start to race first with Lavamancer. Then I draw plains and play 2 Loam Lions and Lynx (not at the same time). My opp draws like 10 lands in a row and I race him with herd of 1/1. 2 game: The same thing like game 1 but now I'm at 1 life. I but my opp from 15 to 6 until he plays scavenging ooze and finally wins the game. There were like three turns this situation that I was at 1 life, I had Lynx and three fetches on the taple. I also had Helix in my hand but no red mana source :frown:. 3 game: I have Lynx and Qasali and opp plays Virtue's Ruin. Then I play Lynx and Loam and opp plays Virtue's Ruin again. I finally lose to Tombstalker because I kill Tarmogoyf instead of it. (1-2)

Matches were pretty tight. Little more luck and I would be playing at top-4 at this moment. Tempo Thress should be good MU for zoo, eventhough Mongoose makes it harder, but today odds wasn't on my side. I think I'm going to play next time Sylvan Library. It will help with TA, Eva Green and Maverick. I'm also considering playing more Lightning Helix because the aggro meta. Allthough I have liked Fireblast a lot. I also liked KotR today when I draw it.

I think zoo was pretty good in today's meta but unfortunately magic is also fortunegame :smile:

[Borealis]

It's been awhile since I sleeved up Zoo in Legacy; I worked hard over the past few months collection the cards to finish my Junk deck, and thus spent a lot of time running that list. So while I don't know how the deck flies in the "current" meta, I've got a good handle on Zoo's matchups and strengths/weaknesses.

It's hard to make the call on which Zoo to run, but I've personally always preferred the faster versions. And while Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance are staying down, and RUG Tempo is still peaking out in Top 8's, I think it's still a perfectly fine time to be running "Fast Zoo". One card I've missed playing that Modern reminded me of is Steppe Lynx, and it inspired me to try it out again. Something like this is where I would start rebuilding if I was going to a tournament tomorrow:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
1 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy

So yeah, a greedy 1-drop Zoo list pretty much. I know this list is a bit on the extreme side, and I assure you I haven't tested it in the slightest, but it's pretty close to where I left off before I switched to Junk after the GP in Providence. Basically, the benefit is that you can rush you opponents with consistently frightening pressure every game. The weakness is obviously that you are a bit softer to the midrange and control strategies if they stabilize.

The manabase might be a bit greedy, I usually like having basics in my deck, but I want to try beating Stifle/Wasteland with just more fetches and nonbasics. Because of the pressure we drop in the early turns, and the fact that all but two lands can produce Red, RUG should not be a terrible matchup. Just don't get Dazed.

Sideboard should address Stoneblade, for starters, as well as the other Control variations out there. 3x Surgical Extraction or possibly Fairie Macabre might be a good call, as they are free and can deal with Dredge and Reanimator (primarily), while still being relevant elsewhere. I would also consider 1-2 Scavenging Ooze in the 75, as they win Goyf and KOTR wars and give you something to do after you curve out and drop you hand. Fighting combo is also relevant, as usual, but that's never an easy matchup. We'll rely on 4x Red Blasts to try and fight them. So a SB something like this might be decent:

2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Path to Exile
2 Choke

Probably too narrow at the moment, just throwing out ideas here. Either way, I'm psyched to run some Taigas again!

[jandax]

Against RUG, playing around all their early game isn't such a bad deal. If they have a nut draw then it's hard to come back, but the incrimental advantage you gain over stranding their Stifles/Dazes/Fire-Ices in their hand means that when the pivetal turn comes, you can either wipe their board or dump your hand and take over the board. They rely on trading their cards for yours in the early game, and in the late your cards are better

[angel882]

Hi, I was also considering Scavenging Ooze to MD, but after rethinking it's so manaintensive and need lots of green mana to work. That's why I think Scavenging Ooze is better in Big Zoo.

After Mental Misstep was banned nobody has played Blue Zoo. Now I have been thinking could we replace Mental Misstep and play Snapcaster Mage in that slot? I have this kind of list in my mind

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

I think Scavenging Ooze could work well in this deck. Any thoughts?

[Vandalize]

Hi, I was also considering Scavenging Ooze to MD, but after rethinking it's so manaintensive and need lots of green mana to work. That's why I think Scavenging Ooze is better in Big Zoo.

After Mental Misstep was banned nobody has played Blue Zoo. Now I have been thinking could we replace Mental Misstep and play Snapcaster Mage in that slot? I have this kind of list in my mind

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

I think Scavenging Ooze could work well in this deck. Any thoughts?

I'd rather play Bant Aggro than that list.

Zoo needs to play like Sligh nowdays. Lynx, Goblin Guide, Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Price of Progress and a couple Sylvan Library to hold things togheter. That's the way to go imo.

[jandax]

^+1

Zoo needs to be all it can be. Doesn't matter what walks alll over it, it's adaptable and right now it needs to be fast and consistent to fare well in a diverse metagame

[Leto]

this is what I want to play in a tourney in 2 Weeks (40-60 People).


1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast


Well, my plan is rather simple, so I won't go further in detail ;) My Problem is my Sideboard. It is a general Problem that I am really bad at constructing and boarding, but ontop I have not much experience with this deck -.- Meta is rather diverse, but some Decks show up every time:
-Dredge (Played every time against them)
-GW
-UGx (Canadian, TA, NORUG...)
-Merfolk
-Reanimator (don't know which impact Graveborn had)
-Combo (DDFT, TES, SpiralTide, SnT...)

atm my Board looks like this
4 REB (against everything with Blue^^)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Reanimator, KotR...)
3 Krosan Grip (Equips, CB+Top, Moat...)
and from there on I have no clue^^

[Vandalize]

this is what I want to play in a tourney in 2 Weeks (40-60 People).


1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast


Well, my plan is rather simple, so I won't go further in detail ;) My Problem is my Sideboard. It is a general Problem that I am really bad at constructing and boarding, but ontop I have not much experience with this deck -.- Meta is rather diverse, but some Decks show up every time:
-Dredge (Played every time against them)
-GW
-UGx (Canadian, TA, NORUG...)
-Merfolk
-Reanimator (don't know which impact Graveborn had)
-Combo (DDFT, TES, SpiralTide, SnT...)

atm my Board looks like this
4 REB (against everything with Blue^^)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Reanimator, KotR...)
3 Krosan Grip (Equips, CB+Top, Moat...)
and from there on I have no clue^^

Nice list. But I'd go for +1 Price of Progress and -1 Fireblast main deck. PoP is just gold against GW and BUG/RUG stuff. Fireblast is a nice finisher, but playing 3 might be overkill.

As for sideboarding, I've been playing with this, lately:
4 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle

Pithing Needle is tech against KotR, Jace TMS, Pernicious Deed and other stuff.

As for boarding, I'd go for something like this:
Dredge: +2 Sugical Extraction, +1 Tormod's Crypt, -3 Price of Progress. Dredge works with 14~15 Lands at maximum, and usually goes off with 1~2 lands. Price of Progress would be a Shock for 2 mana, janky.

GW: +2 Pithing Needle, -1 Fireblast, -1 Tarmogoyf. Steppe Lynx and Goblin Guide is golden in this matchup. They'll push lots of damage, as you aim your fire to their Ramp (aka, Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor). Pithing Needle on Maze of Ith, Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze is nice.

UGx:
-RUG Tempo: Just board nothing. Just burn their threats and watch out for Stifle on fetchlands. Our threat density is much higher, and burn can keep them off damage.

-BUG/Team America: +3 Pithing Needle, -2 Steppe Lynx -1 Grim Lavamancer. Pithing Needle on Deed and Jace TMS is very, very nice.

-Bant Aggro: Just play it like it was GW Maverick.

Merfolk: Cakewalk, lol. I'd board like this: +4 Pyroblast -4 Path to Exile. If you're having trouble, you can add some Pithing Needles for Mutavaults and AEther Vial.

Reanimator: This matchup might be very hard. Burn their face as much as you can, because if they use Reanimate, they'll set themselves at 10~12 life. Again, Steppe Lynx is golden. I'd board like this: +2 Surgical Extraction +1 Tormod's Crypr -3 Grim Lavamancer.

Combo: This might be impossible, lol. Just make sure you add a fast clock. Against most Storm Combo I'd board like this: +4 Pyroblast, +3 Mindbreak Trap, +3 Pithing Needle -4 Path to Exile -3 Grim Lavamancer -3 Price of Progress. Pyroblast targets must be ALWAYS: Merchant Scroll, High Tide, Brainstorm, Ponder. Mindbreak trap is weak, but might buy you a turn or two. Pithing Needle against DDFT is hugh (naming Top, of course) or against Spiral Tide naming Candelabra of Tawnos (I really doubt someone will have this).

Hope it helped :3

[Borealis]

Thanks for the quickie Sideboard post Vandalize, that was well put.

I do agree that Legacy Zoo decks are best when they are built like a Sligh deck, rather than resembling a faster Bant Aggro deck. There are many cases where Zoo wants to run Hierarch (like in Modern Boom/Bust), but I don't think it's where we need to really be right now. I could be wrong here, but I do know that Fast Zoo just feels right, all the time.

I have been tempted to try and build a Legacy list similar to the ChannelFireball Snapcaster list we saw in the Modern portion of Worlds. But I've been running the modern version enough to know that the mana can be ugly sometimes, and Wasteland/Stifle seems pretty preventative at the moment.

[lordofthepit]

I do agree that Legacy Zoo decks are best when they are built like a Sligh deck, rather than resembling a faster Bant Aggro deck. There are many cases where Zoo wants to run Hierarch (like in Modern Boom/Bust), but I don't think it's where we need to really be right now. I could be wrong here, but I do know that Fast Zoo just feels right, all the time.

What kind of decks do you usually play against?

These results aren't typical, but I've played Big Zoo for almost two years (recently switched to Bant) and won roughly 70-75% of my matches. I've occasionally played Fast Zoo during that same period (and for 6 months prior) and I probably win only 45-50% of my matches. I'm never going back.

[Goin Aggro]

The merfolk side is questionable.

I want as much spot removal as possible in the deck when playing against them. PtE is just too good in dealing with their creatures, and though R.E.B./Pyro is a strict upgrade, you should be trying to add more removal to the deck rather than just upgrading it.

In the 'folk matchup, you should probably side out PoP and one other random card and leave the PtE in the deck.

They'll rarely have more than one lands that you can actually hit them for damage with, as most decks aren't running a splash anymore.

[Borealis]

@lordofthepit:

My meta is pretty diverse. There is Maverick, U/w blade, Storm, Deadguy, Junk, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver, RUG Visions, Bant, Reanimator, Stax, Aggro Loam, and a few others. When I was running zoo, I was the fastest aggro deck and wanted it to be that way. In a heavier aggro meta, I can imagine big zoo might be better. Its certainly gotten people into top 8s this past year. But as you realized, Bant is really the champ when it comes to midrange Green creature decks. I would just rather run Fast Zoo when it's good and switch to something else when it isn't.

[Leto]

@Vandalize

thx for your post, helped me alot to sort my thoughts =)

@Sideboard

4 Pyroblast / REB
this is easy, they are way too good in too much MU, so 4 Slots are safe
3-4 Crypt (Gravehate)
Something more difficult, cause there are many different options right now. In a deck like FastZoo the Goal of Gravehate is only to slow the opponent a turn or two, cause our clock is so fast. :0: is best designed for that, means Crypt and Extraction or Faery Macabre. Extraction and Faery are like a gun behind your back while you threaten someone. Crypt means laying a loaded gun on the desk in front of you. It forces the opponent to act really carefully. Bad for him that we are fast ;)
3 Stony Silence (Artefacthate)
I thought long about this one compared to Pithing Needle but in the end, Stony Silence is better suited for the Deck. It shuts down every Equip (except Germ for Batterskull -.-), Moxen, Candelabra, Top and Petals and the whole MUD-Deck^^ The examples you brought in for Needle don't really apply for my Meta, Jace is rarely seen (dunno if he is a big Problem for this Deck anyway) and Deed is played T3 and active T4 where I can burn him out pretty simple anyway or would have lost in most cases anyway.
4 Silence (Combohate)
Is it a dumb thought to counter combos by silencing them? Its oncolor and can be played under any circumstances, that can not be said about traps


general question:
Do you bait stifles with hands like land, fetch, burn, burn, creature, creature, creature or do you try to play around it?

[Artlee]

3 Stony Silence (Artefacthate)
I thought long about this one compared to Pithing Needle but in the end, Stony Silence is better suited for the Deck. It shuts down every Equip (except Germ for Batterskull -.-)
One thing worth noting is, that you can bolt the germ before it gets equipped, right?

[lordofthepit]

@lordofthepit:

My meta is pretty diverse. There is Maverick, U/w blade, Storm, Deadguy, Junk, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver, RUG Visions, Bant, Reanimator, Stax, Aggro Loam, and a few others. When I was running zoo, I was the fastest aggro deck and wanted it to be that way. In a heavier aggro meta, I can imagine big zoo might be better. Its certainly gotten people into top 8s this past year. But as you realized, Bant is really the champ when it comes to midrange Green creature decks. I would just rather run Fast Zoo when it's good and switch to something else when it isn't.

From my experience, here's how I would rank the three decks (Zoo, Big Zoo, Bant) for each of those matchups (starting from best):
- Maverick: Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant
- U/W Blade: Bant, Big Zoo, Zoo (although the game really comes down to can they stick Batterskull; small Zoo is best if they don't, whereas Bant and Big Zoo can still win even with an active Batterskull).
- Storm: Bant (by a lot), Zoo, Big Zoo
- Deadguy: Zoo, Big Zoo, Bant; removal is king in this matchup, and small Zoo is less prone to getting blown out by Perish
- Junk: Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant
- Grixis Delver: Not sure about this one. I think Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant. Removal seems great here, but small Zoo has a chance of getting Stifle/Wasted out of this matchup. I really like Noble Hierarch here.
- RUG Delver: Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant
- RUG Visions: I have no idea--I've never seen this deck before.
- Bant: I'd rather be Big Zoo than Bant in this matchup, but I think I would rather be Bant than small Zoo. Sticking the biggest creature and drawing removal for their creatures are keys here.
- Reanimator: IMO, Bant has the best Reanimator matchup in the format. As for Big Zoo vs. Zoo, Zoo has the ability to just straight up race Reanimator before they stick a relevant fatty (relevant being Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, or Elesh Norn, and possibly Iona; usually, you can just race right past a Jin). However, Knight of the Reliquary -> Karakas is the nuts here. If small Zoo runs Knights, I'll give it an advantage over Big Zoo in this matchup. Otherwise, I like Big Zoo (over small Zoo without Knights).
- Stax: I assume you're talking about White Stax here. I'd say Bant/Big Zoo are both great (fewer one-drops), less blowout potential against Tabernacle effects. (If you mean Dragon Stompy, that's almost a bye for Bant and Big Zoo, although better for Bant because of counters. Noble Hierarch/Green Sun's Zenith allows you to play around any for their Moon/Chalice effects.)
- Aggro Loam. I think I like the Zoo decks more than Bant, since they can run more basics and put on a faster clock, especially against the Jund builds where you can kill almost everything with a Bolt. Scavenging Ooze helps Bant a lot though (which some Big Zoo builds run). This also is really dependent on whether they run Chalice of the Void (which kills small Zoo) or Devastating Dreams (where you really wish you had Knight of the Reliquary).

I actually think the presence of Merfolk and Goblins is a great reason to run small Zoo, since you're less likely to get blown out by crap like Submerge/Mind Harness on your fatty or Perish on your entire board.

One thing though with respect to small Zoo. I used to be a big fan of Steppe Lynx for its ability to set up really fast goldfishes and because Loam Lion/Kird Ape didn't really do much. I think I've come around on that. I'd rather have the more consistent 2/3 beaters and probably even Goblin Guide, especially if you can expect a lot of Stifle effects, which make Steppe Lynx really awkward.

[Koby]

One thing worth noting is, that you can bolt the germ before it gets equipped, right?

No, the Germ is created and immediately equipped to Batterskull; then the game checks for "dead" creatures, then priority is granted to active player.

[Esper3k]

Spiral Tide naming Candelabra of Tawnos (I really doubt someone will have this).

There were 3 people playing Spiral Tide at the tournament I played at this past Saturday :)

[Borealis]

Leto, I might still run a couple Surgical Extractions, like a 2/1 or 2/2 split with Crypt. Extraction can be relevant in a wider variety of matches, and the surprise value is helpful. Also, when you get a juicy target, it can actually help your long game, while Crypt really only helps you for a turn or 2 (which Surgical can also do if timed carefully).

Artlee, you can response to the Germ trigger (successfully with a Stifle, say), but when your Bolt resolves it will already be a 4/4, so unfortunately that doesn't work for us. Same as how a Wild Nacatl is a 3/3 as soon as it hits the field if you have Plateau. With Batterskull, putting the token into play and attaching it are all part of one ability resolution so you can't interrupt it.

lordofthepit, that's a nice listing of the various matchups among Zoo, Big Zoo, and Bant, but it's pretty arbitrary. I'm only saying that because I could easily have had a different set of experiences with the same decks, and I'm not sure where you assembled all the data from. Anyway, it's not really important and I'm not really trying to argue with you. Big Zoo should usually beat Fast Zoo, but lose to Bant, and that's my only real stipulation. As soon as I start considering Noble Hierarch, I feel like I should just run Bant colors and call it a day. Sure you sacrifice Burn for Counterspells, but Brainstormswickedgoodblahblahblah. I just like being at one extreme or the other of the Bant/Zoo dichotomy, so I'd rather be "Super Fast Dudes with Tons of Burn" than "KoTR with Force backup, GG?". Big Zoo falls somewhere in the middle. Both decks are pretty well balanced, and my Fast Zoo lists always end up a bit more diversified than just Dudes and Burn, but I like pushing the envelope in that direction. Contrarily you prefer Big Zoo, which means we are both pushing Zoo to be better and more adaptable in a variety of metas, which is a good thing. And yeah, Steppe Lynx sucks sometimes, but he beats the shit outta combo and control, which is why I like him. He is usually the first creature to get swapped out week to week though.

RUG Visions is the list running Bloodbraid into Ancestral Visions, with a variety of other ridiculous card advantage (Jace, Sylvan) in addition to the usual RUG stuff. The list is probably not that great right now, but the player who runs it here just happens to be really good when he's sitting on a bunch of draw spells, so his deck's EV is a bit higher than it should be I'd say. I usually go to 3 games against him and lose in the final SB game, whether I'm running Junk or Zoo. We'll see how he deals with RUG Tempo next time I show up though! :cool:

[trivial_matters]

One thing worth noting is, that you can bolt the germ before it gets equipped, right?

No, because the equipment is attached to it during the resolution of the Living Weapon ability which is triggered when Batterskull comes into play.

EDIT: A bit late, I see.

[angel882]

Hi, was Pat Cox playing zoo in SCG: Invitational? I read those standings and he was at 16 points. Another zoo player David Doberne was at 15 points.

[dsck]

Hi, was Pat Cox playing zoo in SCG: Invitational? I read those standings and he was at 16 points. Another zoo player David Doberne was at 15 points.

Yes, I saw him playing against Kibler on SCG LIVE. He had Ranger of Eos and Stoneforges so it was maybe big zoo?

[angel882]

Yes, I saw him playing against Kibler on SCG LIVE. He had Ranger of Eos and Stoneforges so it was maybe big zoo?

Last time when he won invitionals in Indianapolis he was playing this list

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Creatures [24]

3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells [16]

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [20]

SIDEBOARD
2 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Pyroblast
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

so it's kind of small zoo with Mystic package and Eos in side.

[Leto]

played this yesterday in a Tourney with 62 Players, 6 Rounds


//Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy

//Creatures
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage

//Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction


Only short Report, I'm not in the mood for a long one
2:1 Win against Maverick
2:0 Win against Manaless Dredge
2:1 Win against Enchantress
0:2 Loss against U/R StifleNought
0:2 Loss against Deadguy
0:2 Loss against Show and Tell Hivemind

3:3 in the end and I fell kind of depressed -.-

Manabase needs more work, Board the same, a little bit streaming in the Mainboard.

[metamet]

Anyone read Mark Hinsz's SCG Invitational report where he lost on the bubble, piloting Big Zoo?
Bwainstorm—SCG Invitational Report (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/12/bwainstorm%E2%80%94scg-invitational-report/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=bwainstorm%25e2%2580%2594scg-invitational-report)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So I've been playing one drop Zoo a lot on MWS, because I like Kird Apes basically. Besides deciding that most lists ran decidedly too few Sylvan Libraries (what the fuck is with this business of decks that have no other way to dig running a one of random Library?), I've also added Grafted Wargear to top off the curve. This is a card that will probably not be much remembered by anyone who doesn't Cube draft, but it's surprisingly powerful. I usually advocate it as an SFM target in non-green decks that otherwise lack beef on their dudes, but I'm running it by itself here because of some very important math; it makes your one mana dudes into 5/5s and 6/5s, which is to say, bigger than both the standard Tarmogoyf and bigger than a Batterskull-equipped germ.

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Sylvan Library
3 Grafted Wargear

SB:
1 Path to Exile
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tormod's Crypt

I've been absolutely crushing people on Cockatrice with this list; it's fast enough that it has few really unwinnable matchups, it helping that Reanmator and Tendrils decks so often do a shit ton of damage to themselves.

Sylvan Library is amazing in this deck and three is the bare minimum to run. You're always the aggressor so you can usually afford to straight up draw three cards off of it. Wargears, as I said, just let all of your dudes become Goyf and Germ crushing threats on their own. And your actual Goyfs become ridiculous, usually bigger than Knights when it's relevant.

[Mr. Safety]

@IBA: I'm really curious about your inclusion of Grafted War Gear over Rancor. Rancor is cheaper and much faster out of the gate. I've been a huge fan of Rancor in zoo for a long time (I just upped the count from 3 to 4 recently.) You've got me thinking though, as the free equip is nice alongside the extra p/t it provides. I'm still stuck in 2009 with Woolly Thoctar as my top end of my curve.

I have also been a big supporter of Sylvan Library. I've had up to 3 Libraries, but I'm settled at 2 right now. Landing a turn 2-3 Library after a turn 1 Nacatl is a damn good feeling, and especially nice against anything tempo or control oriented. It feeds you removal, burn, lands to overcome Wasteland, and more cheap dudes.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Originally I was running the slot as Rancors, actually. The biggest reason I can tell you to run Grafted Wargear instead- and I'm a huge fan of Rancor, mind- is that it makes Batterskull a chump blocker.

[Hoojo]

@IBA I like the list. I prefer the faster Zoo lists as I think its Zoo's greatest strength. Out of curiosity, have you experimented with Tribal Flames, since you are running 12 fetches?

[nitewolf9]

Jack, why are you not running Steppe Lynx over one of the 2/3 slots? That guy is the best creature at getting in early damage, and you are running ass tons of fetches.

Also, later on when you run out of lands for him you can just throw wargear on and crash in.

I would also consider fireblast over lightning helix.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because it's only running 20 lands, with no Knights, and my experiences with Lynx have been pretty mixed. People seem to usually up the land count and run Horizon Canopy to support him, but doing that just to run Lynx over Loam Lion seems pretty weak to me. It's also worth keeping in mind that the format is increasingly taking aim at small creatures; Loam Lion can't be Cursed Scrolled, or Punishing Fired, and they're sure not getting a two for one off it and Lavamancer with Fire/Ice or even God forbid Contagion.

2/3 really isn't that small in the early game, most decks have maybe 1, 2 creatures max out during that time that can do more than trade with it; and that's what your removal and wargears are for.

Fireblast is a thought and would give the deck an extra boost of speed. I've found the life swing from Helix to be relevant on occasion though, especially with Library. I dunno though, it's certainly worth testing out.

@Hoojo: Not really. It's not running any basics so where would you find room for the Badland/Trop/whatever?

[zulander]

Is there a different thread for Big Zoo? I can't seem to find it... if not I hope you don't mind me posting the list I'm currently running:

Mana: 23
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Burnwellows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland

Beats: 21
4 GSZ
4 Noble H.
4 Goyf
4 Knight
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage
2 Jitte
1 Elspeth

Disruption: 12
4 Swords
4 Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

Other: 4
3 Library
1 Crucible


I really like it, although I may end up adding in two Path's to up the 1cc RFGCreature cards.

Also people, you really should be playing at least 3 Sylvan Libraries, that card is nuts. Like seriously.

[Leto]

Is anyone experienced with the Punishing Fire + Grove + Kavu Predator -Version?

Looks like this in full


//Lands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa

//Creatures
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Goblin Guide

//Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fiery Justice

//Sideboard
2 Gaddok Teek
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Choke
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge


In my opinion you need to cut the Guides for 2 Knights and 2 GSZ and the Groves to 2 and fill up with 2 Duals to make the Manabase a bit more stable but looks interesting enough to try it

[trivial_matters]

Is there a different thread for Big Zoo? I can't seem to find it... if not I hope you don't mind me posting the list I'm currently running:

Not playing Nacatl in Big Zoo is a mistake, IMO.
Since you're playing 4 Zeniths, I'd add a singleton Teeg which gives you some way to hate on Storm game one.

For reference, here's what I played about a week ago:

1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

3 Green Sun's Zenith

//Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Pyroblast
2 Path to Exile

I like playing so many one-drops. Improves your curve. The deck performed well and I made top 8, then lost in the first round against some Storm variant running Cunning Wish and Past in Flames.

[Borealis]

Is punishing fire really that good in legacy right now? I know it was a thing in modern until the bannings, and some maverick players have used it successfully, but I just can't see it being that necessary for even Big Zoo. I guess at that point, you are kind of a hybrid of zoo/maverick. Both Pfire and Grove seem pretty bad when your opponent isnt playing x/2's, especially the combo players. But then again, I have always preferred Fast zoo.

The reason some of us don't run more than 1-2 Sylvans is that the second one is almost always a dead draw. And the less that happens, the better off zoo is. I would only ever run 2 in the 75, more than that and I am likely to have one sitting in my hand instead of a game winning burn spell more often than I'd like. it's an amazing card in many matchups, but zoo doesn't need it to win.

[Richard Cheese]

Is punishing fire really that good in legacy right now? I know it was a thing in modern until the bannings, and some maverick players have used it successfully, but I just can't see it being that necessary for even Big Zoo. I guess at that point, you are kind of a hybrid of zoo/maverick. Both Pfire and Grove seem pretty bad when your opponent isnt playing x/2's, especially the combo players. But then again, I have always preferred Fast zoo.

The reason some of us don't run more than 1-2 Sylvans is that the second one is almost always a dead draw. And the less that happens, the better off zoo is. I would only ever run 2 in the 75, more than that and I am likely to have one sitting in my hand instead of a game winning burn spell more often than I'd like. it's an amazing card in many matchups, but zoo doesn't need it to win.

I'd just play the second one anyway. If you have a fetch, you can resolve the first, then fetch in response to the trigger from the second to look at some fresh cards. Not the greatest thing ever, but not really any disadvantage other than opening yourself up to something like Maelstrom Pulse.

[Borealis]

Yea that's certainly not the worst thing ever. And if you want to pay 16 life you can draw 5 cards too, but obviously that's a very rare situation.

The problem is that when you draw the second library (or worse, see it on top with the first) you didn't draw a threat, you drew a 2 mana do-nothing enchantment. It's a subtle loss of a card, but in zoo that can make all the difference. There is a reason Dan Musser only runs one library in his main.

[Plague Sliver]

Because it's only running 20 lands, with no Knights, and my experiences with Lynx have been pretty mixed. People seem to usually up the land count and run Horizon Canopy to support him, but doing that just to run Lynx over Loam Lion seems pretty weak to me. It's also worth keeping in mind that the format is increasingly taking aim at small creatures; Loam Lion can't be Cursed Scrolled, or Punishing Fired, and they're sure not getting a two for one off it and Lavamancer with Fire/Ice or even God forbid Contagion.

2/3 really isn't that small in the early game, most decks have maybe 1, 2 creatures max out during that time that can do more than trade with it; and that's what your removal and wargears are for.

Fireblast is a thought and would give the deck an extra boost of speed. I've found the life swing from Helix to be relevant on occasion though, especially with Library. I dunno though, it's certainly worth testing out.



I like the fact that you're not running Goblin Guide in the deck. I was never comfortable running him before or during the Misstep era. 2/3 is the just the right power and toughness for 1 mana, I like it.

I would still be on the side of running a bit more land and trying the Steppe Lynx out. At GP Providence I got land-screwed on occasion even though I was playing 3 basic lands. Especially on the draw, if you lead with Taiga-Plateau and they wasteland you once it can be the difference between winning the game or not being able to cast your Library/Wargear and losing the game. I understand your reasoning and the synergies with Fireblast, but I'd drop a Library or Wargear and up land count by at least one.

[Borealis]

No love for Zoo this year yet, eh? Bump.

I honestly haven't played a tournament game in weeks, but hopefully on Thursday I'll jam a few games with MusserZoo. I got all these damn shiny cards for modern I ain't using so might as well blind some Legacy players.

[enemyofarsenic]

Dtb!

[Mr. Safety]

Also people, you really should be playing at least 3 Sylvan Libraries, that card is nuts. Like seriously.

Quoted for truth.

I'm curious how many Grim Lavamancers I should be playing. I'm attempting a Goyf-less zoo deck that focuses a lot more on dropping a lot of 1-mana dorks rather than trying to get a big beatstick. For referenced, my budget zoo build:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Steppe Lynx
3x Goblin Guide
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Ranger of Eos

3x Rancor
3x Sylvan Library
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
2x Chain Lightning
4x Path to Exile
1x Fireblast

4x Arid Mesa
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
1x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village


I like Ranger's ability to re-fill my hand with more 1-mana dorks, Rancor to push early damage, and 3 Libraries to keep the tank full of gas. Lightning Helix is a neccessity to me due to the shock-duals rather than true duals.

[trivial_matters]

Which version of Zoo is best against Maverick?

I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in with their opinion.

[jnosrati]

Which version of Zoo is best against Maverick?

I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in with their opinion.

Slow big zoo, but its still in their favor. My question is what are the best s slots specifically against maverick? Really not feelin like swordsing knights...
The deck basically kills zoo though. mana denial and bigger creatures is a bitch.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@trivial-matters
the pretty standard zoo deck is about where it is. Musser's deck is solid. I have played against it a few times. I asked Musser the last time we played why it wins, because it doesnt make sense to me that the deck is good.
his response, Zoo capitalizes on player mistakes.
Maverick players make mistakes, there is a constant moving engine to the deck. the only real problem is you are not going to burn out a knight, they must be path'd.
everything else, is within reach of burn - of you nab the Ooze in its first stages.

I personally think Jitte should be MD'd most people side it in almost every single game after game one. the Legacy Meta is heavy creature based. I would rather be assured I was going to have a card I needed and then switch in the case I run into combo or control.

[Borealis]

Mr. Safety, 4 Goblin Guides is best I think. There are times I've thought about running 3, but those hands where you draw Taiga, Guide, Bolt, Guide are just too good to pass up. Add in Steppe Lynx and your really looking good. If you're all in on the fastest Zoo deck ever, I'd run 4.

Maverick is definitely not a sweet matchup, regardless of your Zoo build. My guess is that either Big Zoo (basically a Mirrorish match), or the super-fast Zoo decks a-la Musser and Cox will both have a tough fight, but be pretty close to 50/50 with some techy sideboarding. If Maverick and Blade decks dominate your format, I could see the maindeck Jitte, but otherwise it's not that necessary. I guess the bonus is you can still grow your dudes to get aggressive, or gain life against Storm, but that doesn't seem good enough. Then again, metagaming decisions are what get you ahead of the curve, so whatever works!

[Leto]

atm I am playing a rather fast list

4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Mountain

2 Sylvan Library

4 Chain Lightning

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Loam Lion
2 Grim Lavamancer

Board:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tariff
2 Pyroclasm
4 Gravehate (atm 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, 1 Ravenous Trap)

Played 2 small Tournaments (24 Players) where the Deck performed decent (both 2-0 start, ended 2-2), I've lost primarily because of bad mulligan-decisions or bad plays/luck.

At the moment my Meta seems to be full of Canadian, Stoneblade, Maverick and some Junk/Rock-Decks, so I thougt about adding some Massremoval for all the small but important Critter these Decks play (Delver, SFM, Bob, Mother, Aven Mindcensor, Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor...) to my Maindeck.

Options would be: Pyroclasm, Firespout, Slagstorm, Volcanic Fallout

Pyroclasm:
+ cc2
+ 2 Damage (most of our creatures would survive this)
+ instant
- 2 Damage is sometimes not enough

Firespout:
+ 3 Damage
+ Option to do Damage only to flying creatures
- cc3 is a bit expensive
- kills almost all our own creatures
- Sorcery

Slagstorm
+ 3 Damage
+ Can be thrown at your opponent if you have board-advantage
- cc3 is a bit expensive
- kills almost all our own creatures
- Sorcery

Volcanic Fallout
+ 2 Damage (most of our creatures would survive this)
+ speeds up our clock
+ uncounterable (important in the Canadian MU)
+ Instant
- 2 Damage is sometimes not enough
- cc3

I would tend to say that Volcanic Fallout or Pyroclasm would be the best choices, but I am interested in your opinions too, on both, my list and the removal question

[jnosrati]

just play fire ice for the fire half. Ice isnt that great anyhow

[trivial_matters]

You could try Arc Trail.

I don't like Pyroclasm etc. in there because they hit Guide, Pridemage, Grim Lavamancer and perhaps Steppe Lynx, which seems too much.

[angel882]

Hi, I played in a local tournament 4 rounds swiss and top4. I ended up 3rd and lost to BW NO mystic in top4. Other opponents were
Round 1: The Gate (2-0)
Round 2: UW Mystic (1-1-1)
Round 3: UBgw Landstill (2-1)
Round 4: BW NO mystic ID, the same guy I played against in top4
Top4: BW NO mystic (1-2) Game1: I race the first game and my opp don't know what hit him :), Game2: I don't know what went wrong, but he draws Jitte (didn't side AG), Game3: Jitte again

The was the list

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 PtE
4 Lightning Helix
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
1 Sylvan Library
2 PoP
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge

A few word about card choices:
- Jitte was the MVP all day when I drew it (I would have won the top4 match if I had drawn it) so maybe I add one in MD
- Volcanic Fallout has been great in my local meta, but in this tournament it wasn't needed
- Sylvan Library helps in control MU, I won The Gate with this
- Batterskull and Jitte are pain in Zoo's ass, so I'm considering adding 1 Ancient Grudge more (I didn't play three because I have 4 Qasali in MD)
- In my meta there are lot of mono colored decks (The Gate, Goblin, Burn..) and I think people know to play around PoP, But still I think 2 is the right number in SB
- I was waiting at least 1-2 Dredge and Reanimator, but there were none so that's why I didn't use Faerie Macabre (still have to be in SB and I like this card a lot)
- Qasali over Guide in MD: Batterskull and Jitte are pain in Zoo's ass, I have sided out Guide so often but in this tournament I wanted Qasali in every game

I have played now some tournaments with Zoo and tested everything. But I think The simple is the best. So that's why I think I'm playing this list (maybe add MD Jitte) in the future and make few changes in SB.
Any comments??

P.S. I like Volcanic Fallout is the best sweep in zoo, the only con is double red in manacost.

[trivial_matters]

I like your list.

It's hard to tell what to cut for Jitte main though. Maybe Chain Lightning or Helix? Another option would to cut an Ape or Loam Lion but I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

EDIT: As for what is best against Maverick, I'm leaning toward midrange Zoo. Here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7823796&postcount=508) is an analysis I find quite insightful. (I believe the it's the same lordofthepit who has contributed to this thread.)

[angel882]

I like your list.

It's hard to tell what to cut for Jitte main though. Maybe Chain Lightning or Helix? Another option would to cut an Ape or Loam Lion but I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

EDIT: As for what is best against Maverick, I'm leaning toward midrange Zoo. Here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7823796&postcount=508) is an analysis I find quite insightful. (I believe the it's the same lordofthepit who has contributed to this thread.)

I usually like Volcanic Fallout against Maverick. In one tournament (I went 4-0) I did nice combat tricks against Maverick with Fallout. Here's how it went:

I attack with Nacatl, opp blocks Nacatl with Mom, response to prot green I play Fallout and sweep Mom + Noble + Aven. Nice three for one :)

[zulander]

What are some board strategies for local tournament this week? I'd expect some dredge/RUGtempo/BUcontrol/maverick/ShowandTell

How would you board against them?

[angel882]

What are some board strategies for local tournament this week? I'd expect some dredge/RUGtempo/BUcontrol/maverick/ShowandTell

How would you board against them?

I think I will try out Grafdigger's Cage when manage to get those. It will kill dredge! It shuts GSZ and SCM. It also slows reanimator down. Of course animator can but creatures in graveyard and bounce Cage to your hand, but you slow them down so that you can burn them before they draw bounce spell. Of course there're so many other things Cage do but here are only few :)

I think you should let Dredge start. Especially if it's LEDless and they go draw, discard Troll, go. Then Faerie Macabre is good to slow them down. It's like free timewalk :)

I think PoP is great against RUGtempo/BUcontrol/maverick and maybe even ShowandTell.

Pyroblast is also great against RUGtempo/BUcontrol/ShowandTell.

Volcanic Fallout, Umezawa's Jitte and Ancient Grudge helps in Maverick MU. Jitte is also good against RUG Tempo and Fallout against Dredge.

Library is there for against some controls and decks that want to disrupt your hand (Landstill, The Gate, Pox, Team America, Eva Green..)

[TheMinel]

Hi guys

done a few games testing on Cockatrice with this build.... some cards are there in those numbers because that's what I physically have available....played vs Maverick and it's a tough matchup pre side, played Goblins but won quite easily, played URb and also won, and WW is a close matchup really.

First impressions: Thalia is nice, the 10/10 Wurm I haven't had the chance to play but may just swap it for another Elspeth which when I played it, was really good.
Huntmaster also nice but probably no more than 1x due to the high casting cost.

3 Kird Ape
3 Wild Nacatl
3 Loam Lion
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Plateau
2 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Fireblast
3 Goblin Guide
2 Price of Progress
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Ghoultree
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Shattering Spree


Your thoughts?

[useL]

Hi!

So I played a zoo-deck to a 4-0 in a local tourney last night. It was my first ever zoo deck attempt and I'm pretty happy with some plays I did. One thing I'm not happy with is the sideboarding. I was ALL over the place, removing Goblin Guides and Tarmogoyfs and all that. What do you sideboard out when you want to take in say 3 Pyroblasts, 2 Krosan Grip and 2 Ancient Grudge? Thats 7 cards. Do you take out bolts against a WRUG-CBtop list? What do you take out against Dredge to get your hate on?

I'm totally lost and I'll continue to board out my Goblin Guides and Tarmogoyfs against Dredge unless someone just slaps me and tells me what to do.

List is:

Creatures [23]
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [12]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning


Enchantments [1]
2 Sylvan Library

Lands [20]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

[zulander]

Never take Goyf out against Dredge, paying 1G for a 6/7 is good (enchantments/artifacts in the yard). Also, you need a fourth Goyf in the list (if you don't own a 4th I understand tho).

Against CB I wouldn't board in Grudge, why are you boarding it in? Otherwise I'd suggest taking out Chain Lightning and then Helix. Reason being if you resolve a 1cc card I'd rather it be a creature instead of sorcery especially since you still have 11 removal spells after -4 chain, -1 L. Helix.

[useL]

Never take Goyf out against Dredge, paying 1G for a 6/7 is good (enchantments/artifacts in the yard). Also, you need a fourth Goyf in the list (if you don't own a 4th I understand tho).

Against CB I wouldn't board in Grudge, why are you boarding it in? Otherwise I'd suggest taking out Chain Lightning and then Helix. Reason being if you resolve a 1cc card I'd rather it be a creature instead of sorcery especially since you still have 11 removal spells after -4 chain, -1 L. Helix.


My three rounds against dredge never resulted in me having more than 2 lands in play (we never got that far). The two rounds I won was because I left mana untapped so I could bolt my creature in response to triggers. Thats why I boarded him out. What would you take out instead? If I want say .. 4 dredgehatecards.

Ancient Grudge against the CB-deck is cause his wincons is Batterskull, equipments, vedalken shackles etc. But Chain Lightning seems worse being slow and all.

[lordofthepit]

Which version of Zoo is best against Maverick?

I'd like as many people as possible to weigh in with their opinion.

The key against Maverick is to have enough removal for their small utility creatures (mostly Mother of Runes) as well as the Swords to Plowshares for their Knights and possibly Scavenging Ooze. If you can manage that, you simply trump them with superior card quality. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't do a whole lot if you burn their creatures in response to equipment, our Qasali Pridemages are much better than theirs by virtue of having more targets, and our Noble Hierarchs and other small creatures are better than theirs because our removal is stronger.

When I lose to Maverick, it's usually because I don't have enough removal (I play Big Zoo, with 12 maindeck removal spells--Bolts, Swords, and Punishing Fire). I'd love to be able to play like 15-16 removal spells in Games 2 and 3 that aren't embarrassing against the rest of the field. Strongly considering Lavamancer in the sideboard, along with possibilities like Sulfur Elemental, Jitte, etc. (Path to Exile is a given). I'm also consider embarrassing options like Arc Trail, Sudden Shock, etc. that suck against most of the field, even though Maverick really isn't present in my meta. I never thought I'd be lacking for removal options in Zoo...

[Kyubi9]

Volcanic Fallout is an option. It hits a lot of Decks and it can`t be countered. A well timed Fallout will have a deep impact for Maverick.

[lordofthepit]

Volcanic Fallout is an option. It hits a lot of Decks and it can`t be countered. A well timed Fallout will have a deep impact for Maverick.

I actually jammed a few copies of Volcanic Fallout into my sideboard last second, so we're in agreement there. However, I opted not to play Zoo at my last Monday night Legacy event since the people who showed up were likely on decks to be unfavorable matchups.

[Artlee]

Volcanic Fallout would really hit RUG hard, as it takes all creatures but Goyf, which we can easily kill with our own + bolt.

What do people think about the most recent list Pat Cox posted in his article?
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23713_Zoo_Updates_For_Indy_And_SCG_Open_Dallas.html


Artifacts
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Loam Lion
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells
1 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning

Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

\\Sideboard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Path to Exile
4 Graveyard hate cards


He means this build is better than 1-drop-zoo, as goblin guides feed Snapcaster Mage.
I also agree that one can as well go with Maverick if you want to try big zoo.

As graveyard hate I have tried s 2-2 split of Faerie Macabre and Grafdigger's cage. I'm not sold on cage as it does not stop dredge from making zombies. I think i'll go back to a 2-2 split of faerie and tormods as it does not interrupt my curve.

[Curby]

Fallout deals two damage, so it whiffs on Goyf and Mongoose, or 2/3rds of RUG's men. If you're pairing this up with yardhate, that's more reasonable.

I still think equipment is too slow without acceleration. Hell, even Maverick's dropping SFM, and they've got 7+ Llanowar Elves for acceleration!

[Artlee]

Fallout deals two damage, so it whiffs on Goyf and Mongoose, or 2/3rds of RUG's men. If you're pairing this up with yardhate, that's more reasonable.
If fallout only hits 1/3 of creatures, I would rather choose pyroclasm. I only see the uncounterable as relevant vs RUG as we don't hit 3 mana consistently on turn 3 and they have Daze.



I still think equipment is too slow without acceleration. Hell, even Maverick's dropping SFM, and they've got 7+ Llanowar Elves for acceleration!
I think the SFM + equip package serves another purpose in zoo. We want to deal fast damage in round 2+3. Then we go for the SFM package if things start stalling. We are not looking to cast SFM on turn 2+3, like Maverick sometimes does.

[Angels]

So whats the best strategy against maverick? Do we burn their small creatures and save path for their bigger creatures or save the burn for their face and just hope we can plow through them with our creatures?

[damionblackgear]

So I'm wondering what's giving this archetype huge issues right now? Is it the Batterskulls in the Stoneforge decks? The Large threats in mid-range? Stifle/Waste package from Canadian Thresh (I'd say tempo decks but it's the only true tempo deck right now)? Is it because you have to fight them all? How can we, the other deck designers, help?

A lot of people count on you all to help keep the format balanced and fun.

[Curby]

Stoneblade, yeah. StP+Snapcaster, sweepers that are great against everything that costs 1 or 2, equipment lifegain. Add to that the reduced effectiveness of Zoo going to topdeck mode, vs Stoneblade with Jace card draw and Brainstorm filtering.

If you go big with KotR and Zenith for toolbox tricks, you might as well play Punishing Maverick. The reduction in speed seems like a reasonable tradeoff for the extra beef and answers to opposing strategies (Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Teeg, Ooze).

[damionblackgear]

Maybe the Punishing Fire option isn't the worst idea. Yeah you're adding something that's effectively risking slowing you down and not helping Nactal but, you gain the ability to have a late game recurring win-con. it's also very pretty good against Maverick.

[sdematt]

We were testing Zoo against RUG and Stoneblade all night long and just beating them up. It was pretty sad.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Matt what're you using for a list? I'll give it a shot for a while so I can better understand how it works.

[Artlee]

One thing is for sure, IMO: The ultra fast 1 drop zoo is not viable at this moment. While Gobil Guide still does some damage it still helps UW Stoneblade reach mana to cast Snapcaster + StP. I like the most recent list Pat Cox posted in his last article (see my post 0n page 207).

It's still fast but instead of Goblin Guide and fourth Loam Lion it has Stoneforge with Jitte and Sword of X and Y for some late game reach.

If you want to play Big Zoo with Knight of the Reliquary cut Loam Lions + Jitte for 4 KotR.

[DragoFireheart]

Why did Zoo stop being a Tier 1 deck? I thought Burn > Stoneforge mystic? Was it Snapcaster Mage? I don't keep up with Zoo so please forgive my ignorance.

[Artlee]

Why did Zoo stop being a Tier 1 deck? I thought Burn > Stoneforge mystic? Was it Snapcaster Mage? I don't keep up with Zoo so please forgive my ignorance.
It's being discussed on this very page literally. You can also read the article in my post.

[zulander]

Aloha folks! I've been brewing up a new list of Zoo since the printing of Vexing Devil and a singleton Thunderous Wrath, and I was starting off with this list:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vexing Devil
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ranger of Eos

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Thunderous Wrath

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

The deck plays pretty quick and the mana base was kinda stolen from Pat Cox lol. I think Vexing Devil is much better than Gobin Guide, and I don't like that Stoneforge Mystic card. I think Jitte is the best equipment right now and fits well with this deck.

[Artlee]

Vexing Devil is much better than Gobin Guide, and I don't like that Stoneforge Mystic card. I think Jitte is the best equipment right now and fits well with this deck.

Have you playtested the Devil yet? I've heard from others playtesting that Vexing never does anything but the one you don't want it to.

[GoblinZ]

Have you playtested the Devil yet? I've heard from others playtesting that Vexing never does anything but the one you don't want it to.

I think vexing devil is not for this deck, we need real beater

[thefringthing]

I've heard from others playtesting that Vexing never does anything but the one you don't want it to.Shouldn't that be immediately obvious upon reading the card? It's not like your opponent is going to flip a coin to decide which option to take.

[feline]

In the end, vexing devil is basically a lava spike for 4, that sometimes will come into play and get blocked or be answered, it's an awesome burn card though if you just have to play the fastest zoo possible. >^,^<

[Richard Cheese]

We were testing Zoo against RUG and Stoneblade all night long and just beating them up. It was pretty sad.

-Matt

Matt, what variation are you running? I've been having pretty good results with Big Zoo in testing.

[trivial_matters]

The question is, can it also beat Maverick reliably?

[lordofthepit]

Matt, what variation are you running? I've been having pretty good results with Big Zoo in testing.


The question is, can it also beat Maverick reliably?

I find that Big Zoo has an excellent matchup against RUG. The matchup against Stoneblade ranges from slightly unfavorable to very favorable, with cards like Punishing Fire, Green Sun's Zenith, and artifact hate swinging it to the more favorable end. (Esperblade is slightly harder because of Perish, but the same cards plus Volcanic Fallout/Sulfur Elemental do a lot of work in this matchup too.)

The Maverick matchup also ranges from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable, depending on how much spot removal you run. If you're able to shoot down Mother of Runes and win the Knight battles, you are very far ahead. Maze of Ith is very annoying, so running a singleton Wasteland goes a long ways here.

The problem is that this deck sucks pretty hard against a lot of the other popular decks in the format, such as Nic Fit, Sneak Attack, Hive Mind, High Tide, Dream Halls, etc. I'm not sure how the matchup against BUG Control is (I imagine this is extremely heavily dependent on whether you run and assemble Punishing Fire in time). I do like the matchups against Dredge and Reanimator (provided you run Scavenging Ooze and GSZ), and I find Team America, Burn, U/R Delver, Goblins, Merfolk, etc. to be favorable.

As for small Zoo, I find that it is even stronger against RUG Delver as long as you don't get your manabase blown out, but unfortunately, I think it is weaker against Stoneblade and Maverick, as well as the graveyard decks.

[Richard Cheese]

I find that Big Zoo has an excellent matchup against RUG. The matchup against Stoneblade ranges from slightly unfavorable to very favorable, with cards like Punishing Fire, Green Sun's Zenith, and artifact hate swinging it to the more favorable end. (Esperblade is slightly harder because of Perish, but the same cards plus Volcanic Fallout/Sulfur Elemental do a lot of work in this matchup too.)

The Maverick matchup also ranges from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable, depending on how much spot removal you run. If you're able to shoot down Mother of Runes and win the Knight battles, you are very far ahead. Maze of Ith is very annoying, so running a singleton Wasteland goes a long ways here.

The problem is that this deck sucks pretty hard against a lot of the other popular decks in the format, such as Nic Fit, Sneak Attack, Hive Mind, High Tide, Dream Halls, etc. I'm not sure how the matchup against BUG Control is (I imagine this is extremely heavily dependent on whether you run and assemble Punishing Fire in time). I do like the matchups against Dredge and Reanimator (provided you run Scavenging Ooze and GSZ), and I find Team America, Burn, U/R Delver, Goblins, Merfolk, etc. to be favorable.

As for small Zoo, I find that it is even stronger against RUG Delver as long as you don't get your manabase blown out, but unfortunately, I think it is weaker against Stoneblade and Maverick, as well as the graveyard decks.

It's not a blowout against any of the current DTB, but they all feel like winnable matchups. If there was a build that was 55% against the big 3, I'd run that all day. My main concern is running into a lot of the same sweepers meant for Maverick. Virtue's Ruin is no big deal, but it's also the least popular. Deed, Terminus, Wrath, and Perish are all still potential blowouts. Right now I'm considering Elspeth in the board to try and deal with the control matchup. Anyone having success with anything else?

[lordofthepit]

It's not a blowout against any of the current DTB, but they all feel like winnable matchups. If there was a build that was 55% against the big 3, I'd run that all day.

Try this maindeck if you're only dedicated to the Big 3:



// Lands (22)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

// Creatures (20)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Other (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


(My previous list had 2 Tarmogoyfs rather than 2 Sulfur Elemental, but Tarmogoyf sucks pretty hard right now. The non-bo with Elspeth is pretty awkward, but you're usually using the jump ability anyway.)

Good luck with the rest of the format though. Too much Storm combo and Nic Fit in my meta is why I switched to blue decks.

[Borealis]

Yeah, I dunno about that list. Maindeck Sulfur is pretty overkill, and you barely have enough burn to justify red. Looks more like a mediocre Maverick list than a Zoo deck.

I would think that fast Zoo with a not-to-greedy manabase and sideboarded Sulfur Elementals would be pretty decent right now. I could even see running like 1-2 Zenith. But if you're running Hierarch and P-Fire (which I wouldn't), you might as well just call yourself Maverick and get better consistency and resilience.

I'd probably try this right now:

4 Goblin Guide (Or Loam Lion, your call)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

I'll admit I'm a diehard Fast Zoo player, but mostly because the Big Zoo decks just sacrifice the speed of a true Sligh deck for some level of "Control" against aggro. But if you're going to play Aggro mirrors all day, than choose another deck. Zoo should be somewhat favored against Delver (if you play it right and they don't draw like 4 Submerged in game 2), and should beat stoneblade decks when you run 4 pridemage. Maverick is a problem, as is Combo, so build a board like this:

1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress

Fuck it, I think I just convinced myself to switch back to Zoo. Thanks guys! :tongue:

[Richard Cheese]

I think in this meta, Big Zoo is the place to be. 1-drop was doing well with Misstep legal because it sped up when everyone else slowed down. With Snapcaster and Batterskull in the format now though, control decks have a much better chance to fend off a bunch of small guys long enough to stabilize out of burn range. RUG probably isn't that bad, but again 1-drop/sligh lists also have a problem with Mongoose shutting down half their team, and Goyf stopping the other half.

I agree that Big Zoo is very close to Maverick, and that's kind of the point. I think Maverick has proven that a mid-range aggro deck is viable right now, and I think that we can follow the same formula with Zoo to make the deck a top competitor again.

For me the real question is why play Big Zoo over Mav when the two have so much in common? Off the top of my head:

Cons:
- splash damage from Mav hate (Terminus, Wrath, Perish, Deed)
- weaker to combo (at least G1)
- weaker manabase (than GW)

Pros:
- More resilient to Jitte, Sulfur Elemental, Massacre, Darkblast, Forked Bolt, etc.
- Access to Sulfur Elemental against Mav and EsperBlade
- More aggressive creature base
- Not currently on everyone's radar

I honestly can't say if those reasons are compelling enough to run one over the other, but that's why I started the discussion.

[lordofthepit]

For me the real question is why play Big Zoo over Mav when the two have so much in common? Off the top of my head:

Cons:
- splash damage from Mav hate (Terminus, Wrath, Perish, Deed)
- weaker to combo (at least G1)
- weaker manabase (than GW)

Pros:
- More resilient to Jitte, Sulfur Elemental, Massacre, Darkblast, Forked Bolt, etc.
- Access to Sulfur Elemental against Mav and EsperBlade
- More aggressive creature base
- Not currently on everyone's radar

I honestly can't say if those reasons are compelling enough to run one over the other, but that's why I started the discussion.

Here's why I like Big Zoo over G/W Maverick (even though I occasionally play Maverick):
- Removal is awesome against creature-based decks. The G/W Maverick mirror often comes down to Gut Shots. Pffft. You almost never just straight up lose to a flipped Delver.
- You don't need to overextend against board-based control decks because your creatures are stronger, Elspeth is hard to remove, and slower decks simply have no answer to Punishing Fire.
- Wild Nacatl is usually better than Mother of Runes. It may never have the board impact of a Mother of Runes that can untap against a deck with only spot removal and no clock, but many decks now run sweepers like Sulfur Elemental, Forked Bolt, Zealous Persecution, Umezawa's Jitte, Dread of Night, and Pernicious Deed. Fast decks like RUG can force you to defensively block and activate Mother, whereas Wild Nacatl puts you on the offensive and trades with their Lightning Bolts and buffed-up Mongoose (plus, you're usually on the offensive).
- Stoneforge Mystic is clunky. Sticking a Jitte or an appropriate Sword (especially SoLS) is awesome, but sinking tempo into SFM, equipment, and activation only to get blown out by removal on your creature feels awful. (This is probably why many Maverick decks are moving away from SFM.)
- Faster clock is often better than cute tricks. I don't want to durdle around with Aven Mindcensor, Scryb Ranger, etc. They can break a stalemate on the board, but I'd rather just do that by bolting all their creatures.
- Access to Red Elemental Blasts out of sideboard.

Why Maverick is better than Big Zoo:
- Being able to support maindeck Thalia plus 3 or 4 Wastelands is awesome against random decks.
- Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic do indeed shine if you can't remove small creatures quickly.
- Maze of Ith can dominate some games.

Maverick is probably still better than Big Zoo against the field, but I'd pilot the build I posted if my goal were simply to beat the three decks Richard Cheese mentioned.

[Borealis]

Well to be fair Cheese, I was more responding to lordofthepit's list than anyone else's. Some of those maindeck cards suggest a very biased metagame. I can see the attraction of Big Zoo, but there are some things I still disagree with. Hierarch is one of them. I'd rather curve out naturally into KOTR than play out a Hierarch on turn 1 and represent very little pressure until the midgame. When I ran a bigger version of Zoo, it had 3 KOTR and occasionally a single Elspeth at the top of the curve, for me that's big enough. We also have the option of Stoneforge Mystic, and I could actually see some attraction in running 2 Stoneforge with like 3 Swords, possibly in the sideboard as a surprise game 2 play.

And while I haven't played against RUG with a Fast Zoo deck recently, I don't think Mongoose/Goyf is as much of a problem as you make it seem. Goose eventually becomes a relevant blocker, but by then you should have gotten multiple attacks past him, and you should have better board presence. Their Goyf is always going to eat a Path to Exile when you draw one, and you also have your own Goyfs alongside the 4 Pridemages to win that race. Scavenging Ooze and Lavamancer allow you to fight their graveyard reliance and win the goyf wars as well. RUG will slow you down, yes, but it won't be because of groundpounders as much as their plethora of removal and tempo cards. You can't do much against their Spell Snares and Pierces, just try not to get Dazed.

Stoneblade is a bitch to beat, especially if they have extra Paths and EE's in their 75. But if you run 4 Pridemages, you should at least be able to deal with their lifegain in the midgame. Also, burning out their Stoneforges really slows them down. It's not a bad matchup, but it takes some serious grinding and tight play.

The Maverick matchup is probably not great, but you can tune your board and main to fight them better if you're really worried about it.

I honestly don't know if either Zoo list is good enough right now, but I'd still be caught dead with Hierarchs and Nacatls in the same list. The biggest problem with Zoo (as always) is that we just lose to Combo and have a difficult time against graveyard decks as well.

[trivial_matters]

Interesting discussion going on. I'm split on whether fast Zoo or midrange Zoo is better at the moment. Since I stopped playing any variant whatsoever a while ago, I can only give some educated guesses.

Maverick is the go-to aggro deck right now and I'd only play Zoo if I knew it had a positive matchup against Maverick, otherwise I think it's not worth it and you're better off playing Maverick yourself. lordofthepit's list (untested by me) might be a good starting point.

I can definitely see where you're coming from though, Borealis.

In any case, I'd avoid Stoneforge Mystic, as already mentioned.

EDIT: How about this? It's quite similar to the list from Borealis posted above. Jitte makes your creatures more dangerous and Ooze is really good right now but requires lots of mana, so I went for 21 lands. The combo matchup (nonblue) I didn't even bother to address, even in the sideboard.

4 Kird Ape
3 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Qasali Pridemage

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

1 Sylvan Library

3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip

[Richard Cheese]

I honestly don't know if either Zoo list is good enough right now, but I'd still be caught dead with Hierarchs and Nacatls in the same list. The biggest problem with Zoo (as always) is that we just lose to Combo and have a difficult time against graveyard decks as well.

You should give Hierarch a chance. She helps play around Wasteland, provides extra Ooze activations, and 7+ sources of exalted is awesome.

[Tombstalker]

Hey guys I've dabbled with zoo in the past but now I have some questions. I played against fast zoo with MB jitte and it was game winning every time it stuck. Why isn't jitte seen more often main?

The big question though is have you tried Thalia + wasteland? Guide is powerful but his downside is also very relevant against certain popular decks so why not make the change for Thalia? The lack of mana ramp is apparent but t3 Thalia + waste is still very good and zoo has the most under costed aggressive beats to take advantage of the tempo boost. Obviously PtE would also have to change, possibly to dismember so maybe the sacrifice is too great, idk.

Anyway I guess my thinking is that zoo is king of aggressive aggro but the combination of PtE and guide allow other decks to establish their mana base very reliably where they outmatch zoo in threats. Maybe this approach could be beneficial? It also gives MB answers to combo which zoo lacks. so what I'm thinking of is fast zoo without guides/PtE + Thalia and wasteland and possibly dismember. It seems only maverick would not be hurt by this change. Thoughts?

[Freggle]

I'll throw my comments in for what they are worth.



4 Kird Ape
3 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Qasali Pridemage

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

1 Sylvan Library

3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip

Not running Knight of the Reliquary seems wrong. I guess Ooze can be functionally the same role, but I think Knight is still better.

Here is a list I keep sleeved:


4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix

1 Mirri's Guile

4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:

2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Pyroblast
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The list isn't 100% optimal. I use it as part of my gauntlet on new deck ideas I have.

You could easily drop a Kird Ape or two to slip Jittes in main without much loss.

Steppe Lynx is really good in this list. And gets better late game with a Knight online.

Teeg is there to mess with combo, but more and more combo sneaks under CMC 3.

With all the burn it's pretty easy to attack with favorable trades or burn a pesky mom before she's active.

This list can beat both Maverick and Stoneforge before they stabilize. I'd call the MU's even.

Best opener is T1 Steppe Lynx T2 fetch ->Qasali attack for 5.

[feline]

I like fast zoo, but that's really not working right now, ive been looking at doing a hatebear type zoo, but it's like, an 'in limbo' version that's between fast zoo and maverick, almost a zooverick ha ha.

In either case, Latley I've been toying with -something like- this, also trying to keep everything at a cost of 2 or less, keeping it faster
4 goblin guide
4 wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 ethersworn canonist
2 gaddock teeg
2 qasali pridemage
3 grim lavamancer
4 stoneforge mystic
-
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
3 path to exile
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
-
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
4 arid mesa
2 taiga
2 savannah
1 plateau
1 mountain
1 plains
1 forest
-
Some of the sideboard cards would 'intertwine' with the main deck
1 grim lavamancer
1 gaddock teeg
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 ethersworn canonist
2 qasali pridemage
vexing shusher (for my local metagame anyhow, this card is just awesome)
scavenging ooze
for the really fast answers: tormod's crypt -or- mindbreak trap (though with more hatebears, i'd lean towards more anti graveyard)

the only reason I haven't actually pushed this yet is because it just feels like an in limbo version of a weaker maverick deck, the only difference is I have access to burn/removal and it's a little faster, but also there's no green sun's zenith / knight of the reliquary so, the trade off there isn't so great late game.

------

Also I don't know why but I can't make links to the cards anymore at their names, if I forgot how to do that, does anyone remember?

[Mr. Safety]

What has legacy come to when zoo is relegated to page three of the Established Decks section?

O Brave New World!

[obituary 95]

i have a quick question, how would this deck exist in the terminus world?

also I wonder if master of the wild hunt could work in this deck?

also I think this deck needs green sun zenith. the reason I think this is because its the best card green has. so possibly you could combine the two versions by having green sun zenith became the late game push that could tutor up bombs?

just questions from the control side of the coin

[feline]

This deck has been on the lull as of late, it's showings, at the starcity open series events anyhow, have put it on the decline, I think since April it's only placed in the top 16 once.

As far as running it with green sun's zenith goes, I am already looking at wiping the dust off my old fast zoo list and updating it with thalia, guardian of thraben & stoneforge mystic in addition to green sun, maybe even knight of the reliquary too, though I try to keep the curve at 2 or less for all spells. In the end, it's like some "i can burn you" version of maverick.

[infiniteJ]

Anyone have a good Thalia list that doesn't fold to sneak/show or reanimator?

I played a bunch of preboard games vs RUG and was winning consistently. Stoneblade should be okay and Maverick is probably close, depending on if you can stick a lavamancer and draw path or QP at the right time:

4 Nacatl
4 kirdape
4 loam lion
3 Grim lavamancer
3 Thalia
3 Pridemage
4 Goyf

4 Bolt
4 Chain
3 Path to exile
2 Helix
1 Fireblast
1 Sylvan Library
2 taiga
2 plateau
1 Savannah
3 basics
12 fetch.

[Vinnie]

hi guys

Im start playing zoo 2 years ago,but recently changed to maverick.

yesterday I tryied a regular fast zoo list,but with some changes:

1º I changed 3 chain lightning for 3 forked bolt.the 4th chain plays like a 5th bolt;Forked is very good against maverick,elves ad limgering souls.

2º 19 lands,because on my tests the deck was flooding.dont know if this is ok,I screwed my manabase sometimes,but still testing;

3º I see a bunch of RUG delvers playing cursed totem on SB and I think: "why not playing in the turbo zoo?" stops maverick,griselbrand,elves. 3 totem I guess is a good number.

I just played against elff ball (2x2),deadgiu (2x1 for me) and suicide black (2x0 for me).

cant play vs maverick,stoneblade or RUG deck but I try to do it this or next week.

sorry about my english,its horrible :p

[Mandalay]

zoo just made top16 @ scg atl with no zeniths whatsoever just straight up critter and burn

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
19 lands

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
23 creatures

4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Price of Progress
18 other spells

Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Lightning Helix
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sulfuric Vortex
15 sideboard cards

[mmmetaphor]

Looks like a pretty solid list. I'd prefer to bump it to 20 land vs the 19 he has but other than that looks pretty tight. Wonder what the vortexes came in against and if they were worth it?

[Mirrislegend]

Looks like a pretty solid list. I'd prefer to bump it to 20 land vs the 19 he has but other than that looks pretty tight. Wonder what the vortexes came in against and if they were worth it?

As a Stoneforge player, that card gives me fits.

[TarmoX]

Is a bad move thinking of switching the Loam Lions in favor of Vexing Devils??? Many fast creatures lure removals and a Devil may be dangerous both 4 damage and like a permanent!!!!!

[Mr. Safety]

I don't understand why zoo players aren't automatically including Steppe Lynx and Vexing Devil in their lists. Kird animals are a little more resilient but far less explosive. I suppose a Stoneforge setup would make the Kird animals better...but jeesh, I've been using Devils/Lynxes in my budget version and kicking ass against anything that doesn't play Chalice of the Void.

[Vandalize]

Steppe Lynx needs 10~12 fetchlands to work, and he eats Swords to Plowshares with almost no drawbacks. And Vexing Devil is just an upgraded Lava Spike, people never let him live.

"Kird" creatures are fine, because they're cheap enough to build a board very quickly and swarm. Moreover, they're off green, so Perish isn't a big deal.

My latest list is pretty much kicking ass as well:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains/Forest (depends on my mood, but usually a Plains)

4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Cursed Totem/Pithing Needle (Maverick vs Sneak Attack, depends on my mood)
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip

Sylvan Library is great in the main deck. It's kind of the only card advantage avaliable for this deck. Moreover, it draws cards when opposed to Swords to Plowshares, and grows Tarmogoyf when countered (and it's a really big counterspell-target).

Test this list if you have spare time, you won't regret it.

[feline]

Because vexing devil is basically a burn card & steppe lynx is temporarily cool, then it becomes a 0/1 that waits for the next land tricks.

I am surprised the list didn't run goblin guides though, I'm guessing that's what's up with the fireblasts/price of progress instead

-edit- I mis remembered a card lol - loam lion / steppe lynx are not the same cards-

[Valtrix]

Loam lion is the white kird ape. I think you're confusing it with Steppe Lynx.

[Serbitar]

Vexing Devil is terrible. I would play Lava Spike over it every day (and I wouldn't play Lava Spike, don't get me wrong).

[Mr. Safety]

Steppe Lynx needs 10~12 fetchlands to work, and he eats Swords to Plowshares with almost no drawbacks. And Vexing Devil is just an upgraded Lava Spike, people never let him live.

Exacly...so Devil almost always guaranteed 4 damage for :r: early in the game. Late game Devil is better than top-decking a Nacatl because they can't take the 4 to sac him...it might put them in Grim/burn range. Having most decks begin at 15 life (1 fetchland, 1 devil) seems like a good place for zoo to be starting their strategy.

Regarding 10-12 fetchlands, I was doing that with Kird Apes/Loam Lions...to feed Grim Lavamancer, or the hot card at the time which was Knight of the Reliquary. Besides, who plays less than 10 fetches in zoo? I'd be surprised if there is anyone.


"Kird" creatures are fine, because they're cheap enough to build a board very quickly and swarm. Moreover, they're off green, so Perish isn't a big deal.

Steppe Lynx and Vexing Devil are off green as well. This is a non-argument. What Lynx can do is hit for four damage on turn 2 and Vexing Devil can hit for 4 damage in most stages of the game...both with only one attack or being cast. Kird Animals don't have that kind of tempo-pushing element. They create more inevitability...but they are still susceptable to superior threats. If I'm going to play a lot of one-drops, I want those one-drops to really count in the early game. I'm more of a sligh-zoo player honestly (if you hadn't noticed) but I still think it's good logic regardless of your approach.



My latest list is pretty much kicking ass as well:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains/Forest (depends on my mood, but usually a Plains)

4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Cursed Totem/Pithing Needle (Maverick vs Sneak Attack, depends on my mood)
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip

Sylvan Library is great in the main deck. It's kind of the only card advantage avaliable for this deck. Moreover, it draws cards when opposed to Swords to Plowshares, and grows Tarmogoyf when countered (and it's a really big counterspell-target).

Test this list if you have spare time, you won't regret it.

I've been using Sylvan Library x2 at a minimum in zoo since I've been playing legacy. It is quite possibly the best card in the deck. I've played up to 4 but 2-3 seems about right. Currently playing 2 (because I traded my 3rd away for something.)

[zulander]

I agree with you on 2/3 points.
1. Play Vexing Devil
2. Play at LEAST 2 Sylvan Library. I prefer 3
3. I don't like Lynx, I'd rather play Goblin Guide or something else.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with you on 2/3 points.
1. Play Vexing Devil
2. Play at LEAST 2 Sylvan Library. I prefer 3
3. I don't like Lynx, I'd rather play Goblin Guide or something else.

That is at least a logical step to make. Goblin Guide's haste is fantastic, it's a definate upgrade from the Kird animals. I used a set of Guides until Devil was spoiled. I still have the Guides...but I'm having trouble cutting out cards to make it worth putting them back in. At that point I'd rather play straight-up red sligh or go blue with Delver/sligh.

As far as 'something else' goes...there isn't much. Maybe Figure of Destiny, but blah. I'd rather max out on Grims, Chains, or Helixes before I go for FoD.

[Vinnie]

hy fellas

As I can see from the actualy field,merfolks and goblins are back.

As everibody know,Zoo always had good matches against these two decks.But the field still infested with canadians,stoneblades and CB miracles.

When Im was playing zoo like 2 year ago,my field was pretty similar to these one (except there was no stoneblades and miracles,but landstill was normal).

So Im thinking if my old list woul do well on these new meta call:

Creatures [22]
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [11]
3 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile

Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Lands [21]
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB

2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Phyrexian Metamorph


Considerations.:

Creatures: fast and pretty solid with 11 drops 1,and 8 drops 2.

3 reliquary assure the deck has a good mid/late game,and is an autowin against RUG delver.Playinsg with 11 fetchlands,its pretty easy he will ETB 4/4 at least.

instanst & sorcerys: 3 helix because costs 2,and I like to use removal + creature on a same turn.

Enchantments: 2 sylvan to evade discards,and all kind of screws.

21 lands: we play with 3 reliquary and more 2 drops as usual,so with amount of lands we can play more confident.
1 canopy to some extra gas sometimes,and 1 karakas to deal with Sneak atack G1.

SB can chance as field as usual.

gratz and sorry with my english :p

[Leto]

I am working on a list that is rather similar to yours with the same thoughts behind it.

atm my List looks like this

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Karakas

Creatures [22]
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells [16]
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning


Sideboard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 REB
2 Pyroclasm
1 Teeg
2 Silence

---

Manabase is pretty standard, Karakas against big mean guys, Temple Garden as substitute for Savannah (I rarely ever fetch on GW, so I will give it a try before i sink my money)

For Creatures I am not that sure, need to playtest more, some thoughts are
-changing Apes to Goblin Guides
-adding or removing toolbox-Creatures for GSZ (maybe movin Thrun to maindeck)
-trying 2 Stoneforge with Jitte and SoFaI (so nice against Canadian and UR-Delver)
-cutting 1 Knight for 1 Terravore (with GSZ i have better access and in most games Vore is bigger and more relevant as Trample > Tricks from Knight)

Overall the List is rather light on burn, but I couldn't find more slots, so I will test from here and look how it goes. Sideboard is not finished yet.

[Mister M.]

From my experiences with Big Zoo ( sporting 4 KOTR) 21 Lands were always plenty. I never ran into problems casting an Elspeth, Knight Errant which I brought in from the SB, so your Thrun should do fine with 21 lands.
So, you could cut a land for a burn spell, preferably a Lightning Helix so your not stone cold to opposing Chalices out of the SB. Maybe a fetch if you insist on that Karakas.

Overall, I am not sure how I am feeling about the Maverick tricks (GSZ, Teeg, Karakas) in Zoo. Maverick will always do that better, IMHO, and Zoo is being slowed down an still doesn't have a good late game.

[Leto]

Idea behind GSZ was getting more reliant your good dudes (Goyf, Nacatl) because the Canadian-MU tends to be an attrition-war for me everytime and it basically comes down to "who draws more big dudes". A Topdecked Zenith gets you your Critter + you can outplay Spell Snare. Other Reason was the rise of Counterbalance, it is not very funny with a normal Zoo-List to play against balance. GSZ helps this too. Toolbox for GSZ is maybe useless/bad in Zoo, but I included only Critter that I would play in Zoo anyway, so maybe it doesn't hurt that hard^^

but thx for the suggestion on the Landcount, I am not that familiar with BigZoo

[Mister M.]

Due to the omnipresent counterspells and CB/Top and Zoo really struggling when it's threads getting repeatedly countered, I included a Cavern of Souls as my 21st land. You can't zenith for much more than 3 anyways until it's the (very) late game. The question is: whose slot are those zeniths occuping? It's either burn, critter, jitte or Elspeth (in my list, mind that) and I would rather topdeck one of those than a GSZ.
How did some writer on SCG in a Zoo primer put it re GSZ: "This is America! There's no way I'm paying 2 mana for a Wild Nacatl!"

best

[lambert101]

Is it time to reopen the zoo for summer?
It seems this deck does well Mav, RUG,Merfolk and Goblins.
How are we beating control and combo?
Upgrading to big zoo might make us a worse version of Punshing Mav.

[Richard Cheese]

Big Zoo is better than Maverick Vs. Rug, about the same Vs. UWx control, and worse Vs. Combo. Meta call IMO.

[zulander]

Big Zoo is better than Maverick Vs. Rug, about the same Vs. UWx control, and worse Vs. Combo. Meta call IMO.

Big Zu is the ISH.

[Nelis]

Exacly...so Devil almost always guaranteed 4 damage for :r: early in the game. Late game Devil is better than top-decking a Nacatl because they can't take the 4 to sac him...it might put them in Grim/burn range. Having most decks begin at 15 life (1 fetchland, 1 devil) seems like a good place for zoo to be starting their strategy.

It's a bad card. In the early game you want it to be a creature but it will be a burn spell. Late game it will be a creature when to want it to be a burn spell.

The only difference with Nacatl in the late game is that it does one more damage when it hits but that does not compensate for how bad it is the early game. It's not a good strategy.

[Mr. Safety]

It's a bad card. In the early game you want it to be a creature but it will be a burn spell. Late game it will be a creature when to want it to be a burn spell.

The only difference with Nacatl in the late game is that it does one more damage when it hits but that does not compensate for how bad it is the early game. It's not a good strategy.

Seriously? That comment tells me that you haven't played with Vexing Devil, or at least not enough to get the full measure of what he can do. I've won more games with Devil than I ever did with Goblin Guide or Kird Ape.

Zoo is a sligh deck, plain and simple. Vexing Devil is one of the best sligh creatures you could hope for. If you want to play a better straight-up aggro plan then look to Big Zoo, Maverick, or Bant Aggro. Traditional zoo is sligh. I've won games using only dudes and I've won games using only burn.

[Kich867]

Seriously? That comment tells me that you haven't played with Vexing Devil, or at least not enough to get the full measure of what he can do. I've won more games with Devil than I ever did with Goblin Guide or Kird Ape.

Zoo is a sligh deck, plain and simple. Vexing Devil is one of the best sligh creatures you could hope for. If you want to play a better straight-up aggro plan then look to Big Zoo, Maverick, or Bant Aggro. Traditional zoo is sligh. I've won games using only dudes and I've won games using only burn.

Going to have to agree with this. In my experience Vexing Devil is extremely devastating. Facing opponents who go turn 1: goblin guide, swing, turn 2: either Goblin Guide swing for 4 into Vexing Devil or swing for 2 into 2x Vexing Devil.

Now, if you don't have double removal, you've essentially lost that game on turn 2 and this shit isn't even -that- uncommon of a play, replace guides with a Steppe Lynx into Guide / Devil etc. If you don't have the removal you -have- to eat 8 so you only have to deal with one, not 3 creatures. But now you're probably at 8 turn 2 against zoo, if they're on the play you're in a big hole, if you're on the play you've at least got some mana to work with.

The old adage of it being a creature when you want a burn and a burn when you want a creature is kind of irrelevant. As is the "Well they just let it resolve if they have removal". Late game if it's a creature when you want it to be a burn may also mean that they won't live if they let it burn them but they are relying on top decking a removal to not die, it still applies massive pressure for 1 mana and is easily one of the scariest things to see get dropped on turn 2.

[Dragon_mage]

Hi everyone, last thursday I went to a little tournament and I played my favourite deck, Zoo... here is the list:

Creatures [22]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells [17]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
1 Sylvan Library

Lands [21]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

...and this is the sideboard:

Sideboard [15]
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte

... the matchups:

R1: UR Burn (2-0): in G1 he attack me with a goblin guide who hits me twice and give me a land, after that a lightning bolt to the GG and a chain lightning to his delver gave me back the control of the table, further a couple of qasali pridemage and a goyf killed him. I side in 2 REB and a pyro in G2 and i won when I countered a submerge targeting my reliquary with a REB and a couple helix keep me away from his fire.

R2: B/W tokens (1-2): in G1 a nacatl on T1, qasali on T2 and figure+nacatl+lavamancer on T3 were enough. the G2 was in the other way, his discard, liliana and a couple of lingering souls put me so far of winning this game. G3 was hardest, a vindicate to my sylvan was painful, then a batterskull equiped with sword B/W and the path to exile that never came didn't let me kill him, just for fun an elspeth arrive to finish the work :cry: . the lavamancers and qasalis never show up :mad:

R3: Enchantress (2-1): G1 I let him in 3 lifes and then he beat me with his combo of Cadaverous Bloom with a lot of draw engine and cast an emrakul.... just for curiosity I looked my next card and it was a lightning bolt :mad: .... G2 the pressure of an early nacatl plus 2 goyfs and a couple of lightnings were enough. G3 and again the pressure of 2 qasalis and a goyf made me win

R4: Miracles U/W (2-1): G1 and his mistake trying to equip his vendilion to a jitte using his karakas don't let him save it when I burned it. in G2 the mistake is mine, he had a vendilion equiped with jitte with 3 counters and 2 lifes, in my upkeep he used his jitte to gain 6 lifes and I draw a lightning helix and I didn't doubt in do the 3 damage to him thinking he was on 2 life.... later, that vendillion kills me. in G3 he played a terminus having a nacatl and a reliquary, but they hit him enough to let him at the fire reach, a couple of turns later a lightning in his EOT and an helix with a chain in my turn kills him.

...this was my tournament, some conclusions... first of all I HATE batterskull, this ******* equipment won me any time it was on the field, so I will change my jitte in the side for an ancient grudge, second, I'll include the third reliquary because I need it more than once, so I probably take out a lavamancer... and I hope it wasn't boring for you guys... regards from Chile :smile:

PD: sorry for my english but I'm not native

[jandax]

It's a bad card. In the early game you want it to be a creature but it will be a burn spell. Late game it will be a creature when to want it to be a burn spell.

The only difference with Nacatl in the late game is that it does one more damage when it hits but that does not compensate for how bad it is the early game. It's not a good strategy.

Four damage for R was something the deck missed when I played it a year or two ago to some success. This deck has played Steppe Lynx (and I have, too), so at least this one is more on color. Like you said it is a burn spell early in the game, and a creature late game. Is your argument that Zoo needs to have a creature early on and a burn spell later in the game? The opposite of that, basically?

[Nelis]

Is your argument that Zoo needs to have a creature early on and a burn spell later in the game?

I feel a trap coming. :wink: But yes that's what I'm basically saying. I mean it's easy to come up with scenarios like Mr Safety and Kich867 do where Vexing Devil could shine but there's also enough scenario's to think of where the card absolutely not shines. So thats not really an argument in my opinion. 4 Damage turn one is not good if your deck mainly relies on creatures to push damage through.

But to be honest I don't really care even if it's better than I think (I really don't think so) since zoo is a bad deck anyway at the moment. That I'm replying is more a courtesy to you because we've actually met irl in the past. I find Goblins much more interesting at the moment.

[jandax]

I feel a trap coming. :wink: But yes that's what I'm basically saying. I mean it's easy to come up with scenarios like Mr Safety and Kich867 do where Vexing Devil could shine but there's also enough scenario's to think of where the card absolutely not shines. So thats not really an argument in my opinion. 4 Damage turn one is not good if your deck mainly relies on creatures to push damage through.

But to be honest I don't really care even if it's better than I think (I really don't think so) since zoo is a bad deck anyway at the moment. That I'm replying is more a courtesy to you because we've actually met irl in the past. I find Goblins much more interesting at the moment.


I quite like it in the ZOo deck nowadays, better than a 1/1 or 0/1 that needs lands to be anything. And just because it can "burn" an opponent it's not a totally dead draw like the aforementioned Kird Animals/lynx. There's no sugar coating a turd.

And I'd play Gobbos over Zoo right now anyhoo. At least it can win faster against the non-interactive combo decks, totally agree with you there

[Plague Sliver]

And I'd play Gobbos over Zoo right now anyhoo. At least it can win faster against the non-interactive combo decks, totally agree with you there

I'm not sure I agree with your logic. Zoo has a great matchup against Goblins and especially Merfolk, which is making a comeback. Not only that, but Stoneblade is on the decline and Batterskull has traditionally been the enemy of Zoo.

Goblins has to splash W for Thalia; Zoo can play Thalia already.

Combo is always going to be a problem, and that's where REB and possibly Revoker can come into play. Zoo has burn so it can win fast too.

David Price just finished 20th in the SCG Open with a pretty sweet Zoo brew:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48481

As the man behind New Horizons, I can appreciate David's use of Horizon Canopy for the pseudo-card-draw effect.

Zoo isn't great at playing the control game vs. RUG Delver but the Jittes do the trick.

I also dig the 1-Wasteland configuration, for the random Waste-your-Maze blowouts.

The only thing I would try to do is squeeze in some Fireblasts, so that it becomes even more Sligh-ish in nature.

[jandax]

I'm not sure I agree with your logic. Zoo has a great matchup against Goblins and especially Merfolk, which is making a comeback. Not only that, but Stoneblade is on the decline and Batterskull has traditionally been the enemy of Zoo.

Goblins has to splash W for Thalia; Zoo can play Thalia already.

Combo is always going to be a problem, and that's where REB and possibly Revoker can come into play. Zoo has burn so it can win fast too.

David Price just finished 20th in the SCG Open with a pretty sweet Zoo brew:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48481

As the man behind New Horizons, I can appreciate David's use of Horizon Canopy for the pseudo-card-draw effect.

Zoo isn't great at playing the control game vs. RUG Delver but the Jittes do the trick.

I also dig the 1-Wasteland configuration, for the random Waste-your-Maze blowouts.

The only thing I would try to do is squeeze in some Fireblasts, so that it becomes even more Sligh-ish in nature.

That's all fair, but here in the Netherlands/Belgium/Germany the metagame is way different than the SCG circuit. What Nelis was saying has more merit than it would stateside, which I was agreeing with him.

[feline]

Unfortunately I cannot defend my zoo deck either, right not it's just not fast enough as a baseline aggro deck, there's too much more relevant "stuff" going on, I still have my zoo deck together however, and I have options from "fast zoo" to "big zoo" and I have no plans of dumping the cards for any reason, but the closest thing to zoo I am looking at right now would be maverick, everything else is combo, control, or my other aggro deck "goblins."

Correct your capitalization and grammar please.
-4eak

[Nelis]

Simply put in this regard you’re right and Nelis is conspicuously wrong.

Give me some good reasons why I'm wrong. Apart from some situational reasoning in this thread I haven't read one bit of proper argumentation why it is so good. Because 'I say so' or 'if my opponent does not have creature removal' or 'Nelis is conspicuously wrong' has no value whatsoever.

And all you do is wrongfully attacking people based on your own ignorance of Zoo/Sligh. The definition of a Sligh deck is putting on pressure with cheap but effective critters and use burn to either get those creatures through or finish your opponent when they're low on life. If you have played zoo a lot then you'd know that you seldomly win by starting off without creatures. It is you who has no knowledge of the concept of zoo.All I can think of is that you mix up burn with zoo and think it works the same. But even in burn Vexing Devil is not good for exactly the same reasons, you never get what you want.

[Curby]

To be honest I'm surprised at the recent support of Devil in Zoo. Way back when it was spoiled, I argued against (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8221175#post8221175) its use in Zoo. An edited version below:


A 4/3 for R is just what Zoo wants. It's better than Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, etc. On the other hand, the purpose of our burn is often to clear a path for our creatures. Only towards the end of the game is burn directed at the opponent. This means that the vast majority of the time, Zoo's getting 4 damage for R. Despite the raw efficiency of 4 damage for R, Zoo would rather have something with more utility that can target a potential blocker, utility creature, etc.

Of course that was just speculation, but early testing seemed to confirm it: you always get what you'd rather not have. Despite each side of the card being better than Browbeat's two sides, it's still the opponent's choice. So really, what logical arguments can be made in support of its inclusion?

[lordofthepit]

To be honest I'm surprised at the recent support of Devil in Zoo. Way back when it was spoiled, I argued against (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8221175#post8221175) its use in Zoo. An edited version below:



Of course that was just speculation, but early testing seemed to confirm it: you always get what you'd rather not have. Despite each side of the card being better than Browbeat's two sides, it's still the opponent's choice. So really, what logical arguments can be made in support of its inclusion?

I think Vexing Devil is terrible, but then again, I never liked Kird Ape or Loam Lion either. I want something that actually has a high impact on the board state or deals damage really quickly. Vexing Devil is the worst of both worlds.

[Curby]

I'm glad the voice of reason is still alive.

Devil is the worst chump blocker when you're losing the damage race and staring down a huge Knight of the Reliquary.

Devil is the worst burn spell when they're at 3 and you just need a little extra to win the game.

Here's the kicker: Devil still has a place in competitive Legacy.


I don't understand why zoo players aren't automatically including Steppe Lynx and Vexing Devil in their lists. Kird animals are a little more resilient but far less explosive.

Those who argue for Devil and Guide seem to be confusing the gameplan of a Sligh/Burn deck with that of a Zoo deck. Zoo is not Sligh, and it isn't meant to be. They're both aggressive, but the difference is stamina.

Sligh/Burn is indeed explosive, and strives to do as much damage to the dome as quickly as possible. To clinch the quick win, it runs more burn (explosive, damage-once) spells, and these are flung directly at the opp. Its chances of winning decrease drastically as it stops topdecking; it has run out of steam and the opp has a chance to stabilize.

As a counterpoint to Sligh/Burn, Zoo's burn spells are typically used to clear a path for its ground-pounders. Zoo tends to use more consistent, low-variance creatures. It wants to maintain more viability into turn 4+, and that means creatures that stick around and do consistent damage. For starters, that means creatures that actually have a chance of landing on the table when cast early, so that it can attack several times.

Since Sligh plays the short game, creatures will likely have fewer opportunities to attack, and a 4/3 that turns into a Fireblast won't have missed too many attack phases. Since Zoo plays a longer game, creatures will have more opportunities to attack, and a 4/3 that turns into a Fireblast will be missing more attack phases.

Sure, you can make a hybrid, draw inspiration from both, and achieve success. It still doesn't mean that it's the only way, or even a better way. To me, the intended gameplan of a Zoo deck simply doesn't support creatures like Lynx and Devil, but they would fit just fine in Sligh/Burn decks. If you want to play Lynx and Devil in an aggressive deck, maybe there's another deck that would better fill your needs.

[Nelis]

Hmmm, to me Zoo is the modern day take on sligh. It's just that the creatures have become better and are in different colors. If you look at the original sligh deck, it still features (just like zoo) a lot of creatures and relatively little burn spells. (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Sligh or http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/691) The way you play both decks is also the same. Use burn to get your creatures through and use the remainder of the burn spells to finish of the opponent.

Modern day burn decks on the other hand only run a lot of burn spells and just a few creatures (which basically represent burn spells). Generally speaking its played differently too. Burn spells are not meant to get rid of creatures (with some exceptions) but to go straight for the dome.

[Curby]

Modern day burn decks on the other hand only run a lot of burn spells and just a few creatures (which basically represent burn spells). Generally speaking its played differently too. Burn spells are not meant to get rid of creatures (with some exceptions) but to go straight for the dome.

I was referring to modern day goyf sligh, which plays a lot like modern burn in philosophy, though it focuses a little bit more on creature-based damage. In both, there's a lot of burn sent at the opp.

[feline]

Gen con, this deck made the finals, but lost to a sneak & show deck:

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt

[mmmetaphor]

Gen con, this deck made the finals, but lost to a sneak & show deck:

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt

Granger guildmage???

[feline]

Yea I know, I don't know why that's not a Grim Lavamancer.
-EDIT- Nevermind, there's already 4 lavamancer's in there.

[from Cairo]

Yea I know, I don't know why that's not a Grim Lavamancer.
-EDIT- Nevermind, there's already 4 lavamancer's in there.

Lavamancer number 5 seems fine in such an agro oriented format. Granger's ability to grant First Strike doesn't seem too shabby either against Tribal and even to expand the value of Bolts by going 1 for 1 on larger blocking targets (Goyfs, opposing Knights, Oozes, etc).

[lordofthepit]

Lavamancer number 5 seems fine in such an agro oriented format. Granger's ability to grant First Strike doesn't seem too shabby either against Tribal and even to expand the value of Bolts by going 1 for 1 on larger blocking targets (Goyfs, opposing Knights, Oozes, etc).

I'd rather play Uvenwald Tracker. How many matchups would Granger be better overall? (I assume Elves and a few other matchups with X/1s.)

[mmmetaphor]

Gen con, this deck made the finals, but lost to a sneak & show deck:

4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt

4x Waste played along side 3 Thalia and the KoTR seems pretty strong. Brings the land count up to 22 if I count correctly and seems to favor a higher creature count than burn.

[trivial_matters]

Granger Guildmage is sweet against Maverick. Overall, I like the somewhat unusual approach.

Main, I think a Karakas is a must. I wonder why he didn't run it.

[JanoschEausH]

Looks really interesting. But doesn't stand a chance against Show-n-Tell Decks. I would definately run a Karakas main. And maybe a second in the side. Granger Guildmage is not that bad. I have tested it too, and both abilities were quite usefull.
I like how he is running STP instead of PtE to create harmony with Thalia and Wasteland.

[troopatroop]

Very interesting decklist. I used to hate playing against Granger Guildmage with ATS! But Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, and Thalia from Maverick? Lol

[trivial_matters]

On a side note, I hope Return to Ravnica has some new cards for Zoo. The last time multicolour-focused editions came out we got Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage and Knight of the Reliquary.

[lordofthepit]

On a side note, I hope Return to Ravnica has some new cards for Zoo. The last time multicolour-focused editions came out we got Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage and Knight of the Reliquary.

How about this?

http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/h-dryad-militant.jpg

Small Zoo might be viable again. Besides Wild Nacatl, all the aggressive one-drop creatures suck pretty hard (Loam Lion, Kird Ape, Steppe Lynx). This one is disruptive while being aggressive. It's slightly awkward with Lavamancer, Goyf, and Punishing Fire though.

[Curby]

It shows how far Zoo has merged with Maverick when Punishing Fire is really considered a viable Burn spell in Zoo. It also shows how much power creep has affected creatures though, going from Savannah Lions (Rare, vanilla) to Elite Vanguard (Uncommon, vanilla) to Militant (Uncommon, potentially disruptive).

I doubt Militant will change small Zoo much. It could be a consideration if your meta is crawling with Pasts in Flames and Snapcaster Mages, but it hurts full playsets of our own creatures in every matchup.

[zulander]

Here's a weird list I'm trying out with the new Selesnya Charm:

Creatures: 18
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells: 21
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana: 21
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Still thinking about whether I should add in basics or wastelands. I like the concept of the charm as it's flexible in three areas that the deck tries to focus on.

[Curby]

That's quite a bit of delayed effects, between Jitte and Library. Don't get me wrong, I love both cards, but oftentimes in Zoo both end up being "I'll get something out of this next turn" whereas an aggressive deck like Zoo would like more immediate returns on investment. Has Jitte in Zoo ever seemed too mana-intensive and slow to you? Traditionally that's been the reason to only run it in the sideboard.

I'd suggest running basics of your primary colors. I built my small Zoo list to only have around 6 white mana symbols, and so I can get by without a Plains, but I'd feel a little naked without any basics at all. We're not RUG, which has cantrips, Stifles, and countermagic to help defend from hate. We're not Maverick, with Hierarchs and GSZ into Arbor to accelerate mana and smooth out colors. Zoo's manabase can already be a bit of a weakness; no need to exacerbate the problem.

As a Rancor user, I like the promise of Selesnya Charm, but the cost does seem high. If Charm can be used to take care of real fatties (those that dodge Bolt), the need for as many Paths may go down. Btw, I also love GSZ in Zoo, which allows a more toolboxy build. I might consider something like this when testing Charm:

-1-2 Pridemage
-1 Knight
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2-3 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Path
+1 Charm
-2 Jitte
-1 Sylvan

-2 Savannah/Canopy
-1 Fetch
+1 Mountain
+1 Forest
+1 Plains

Keep in mind that Zenith can also help mana-fix you by casting Knight and Pridemage without white mana, this, along with the existing overloading on G/W land, is the reason for the reduction in G/W land.

EDIT: If you're considering 4x Wasteland for random colorscrewing the opponent, I'd suggest against it. If there are utility lands that own you, such as Maze of Ith, you might consider a single copy (perhaps in the side) to search up with Knight.

[Bruno Mars]

im trying to build a really fast zoo and I cant decide between goblin guide and vexing devil. Which of these is the better card? I think Vexing Devil is much more explosive than goblin guide but the devil is still not good enough because its not up to you how youre playing it... do you got experience with goblin guide vs vexing devil?

[aluisiocsantos]

I've been starting to play ZOO recently and after a bit of research I've come to this list, which is a mixmatch of the GenCon list, and a SCG list that used Rancor around may this year:


Creatures [25]
1 Granger Guildmage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments [2]
2 Rancor

Instants [7]
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy

Side
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage (maybe a third Thalia instead?)
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
3 Faerie Macabre

What do you think of it? I've been having mixed results. So far it's excellent against graveyard using matches, specially Dredge due to the Thalias, and overall very good against creature-heavy decks, not only due to Granger doing a great control with the first strike, and occasional BOB/Snapcaster/token killing, and the Rancor making it possible to out-tarmo other tarmos/reliquarys. Even Nacatl does a killing with it, specially paired with Granger's first strike.

In a tourney I played this lsit I lost to a Esper and a RUG Delver, but I don't usually lose to this Delver usually, both matches I lost as a 2x1 match so it was pretty fair loss; so in other words maybe combos are bad matches i nthe end, gotta test it out more!

I was also thinking of Sylvan Library instead of the canopies, but having th Reliquary in the deck made me think better of having draw lands instead of more enchants, though the cost benefit is sorta the same? (two manas)

[mmmetaphor]

I've been starting to play ZOO recently and after a bit of research I've come to this list, which is a mixmatch of the GenCon list, and a SCG list that used Rancor around may this year:


Creatures [25]
1 Granger Guildmage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments [2]
2 Rancor

Instants [7]
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy

Side
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage (maybe a third Thalia instead?)
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
3 Faerie Macabre

What do you think of it? I've been having mixed results. So far it's excellent against graveyard using matches, specially Dredge due to the Thalias, and overall very good against creature-heavy decks, not only due to Granger doing a great control with the first strike, and occasional BOB/Snapcaster/token killing, and the Rancor making it possible to out-tarmo other tarmos/reliquarys. Even Nacatl does a killing with it, specially paired with Granger's first strike.

In a tourney I played this lsit I lost to a Esper and a RUG Delver, but I don't usually lose to this Delver usually, both matches I lost as a 2x1 match so it was pretty fair loss; so in other words maybe combos are bad matches i nthe end, gotta test it out more!

I was also thinking of Sylvan Library instead of the canopies, but having th Reliquary in the deck made me think better of having draw lands instead of more enchants, though the cost benefit is sorta the same? (two manas)

If you're rocking Thalia and KoTR I think the correct wasteland count is 4.

[Lord Seth]

im trying to build a really fast zoo and I cant decide between goblin guide and vexing devil. Which of these is the better card? I think Vexing Devil is much more explosive than goblin guide but the devil is still not good enough because its not up to you how youre playing it... do you got experience with goblin guide vs vexing devil?I'll state what I always thought. Vexing Devil is not a creature. It's a Lava Spike that deals 4 damage that has the DISADVANTAGE of possibly coming into play as a creature. If it's not a deck you'd run Lava Spike in, it isn't a deck you should run Vexing Devil in.

[Leto]

Wouldn't Vexing Devil synergize quite nicely with Thalia? I don't play either atm, but Maindeck 4 Thalias and 4 Vexing Devils in the Slot of Chain Lightning in a very creature-heavy Deck should Function quite well. Like

20 Lands
4 Wasteland

4 Nacatl
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lynx
4 Goyf
4 Thalia
4 Loam Lion
4 Dryad Militant
4 Bolts
4 Path

That List spawned in 2 Mins, dont be so harsh, was just a quick thought I didnt want to slip away. Points in the List
- u are the aggressor and wont to be as fast as possible (Lynx, Devil, Nacatl)
- Thalia hurts us not as much as we are putting in threat after threat and a Lavaspike for R ;), on the other side 1U Brainstorms, Ponders... suck hard
- Dryad Militant hoses Snapcasters hard, thats my major problem against UW, infinite Swords. Dont know if its worth until its tested.

Maybe I will have some additional thoughts on that theme later, looks promissing at last

[Kuyira]

This is the list I played last sunday at the Open Dutch Legacy Championship:

"Thalia Zoo"

20 Land:
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

29 Creatures:
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Loxodon Smiter

11 Spells:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast/REB
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip


People tend to play Relic of Progenitus against decks with Knight of the Reliquary & Tarmogoyf around here simply because it's great against Dredge and other graveyard based decks as well, so Loxodon Smiter was the choice I made. I don't like using utility lands anyway because in most cases it is to slow to acivate your Knight of the Reliquary in turn 4 to acutally grab it. The Loxodon Smiter was a real house against RUG Delver. Plus it's neat against Hymn to Tourach as well. Loxodon Smiter is my new favorite creature in Zoo. I am surprised not more people play him.

The Granger Guildmage is really good in creature matchups to push trough extra damage or having your opponent sacrifice his creature due to the first strike. Also it's amazing against RUG Delver (Tarmogoyfs blocking eachother anyone? As well as Delver of Secrets), Maverick, Lingering Souls, Goblins, Elves, Snapcaster Mage, Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant and creatures I forgot to mention. He's a lot better as a turn 1 drop than Grim Lavamancer is. I guess I am cutting a Grim for a 2nd Granger Guildmage maindeck.

In the end I went 4-3:
R1 vs Tezzeret Control: loss 2-1 (due to Ensnaring bridge)
R2 vs B/R/G Zombies: win 2-0
R3 vs Burn: win 2-0
R4 vs MUD: loss 2-1 (due to wurmcoil engine & steel hellkite)
R5 vs RUG Delver: win 2-1 due to Granger Guildmage and Loxodon Smiter
R6 vs ANT: 2-0 loss (started with game loss due to being late...)
R7 vs U/G Enchantress: 2-1 win due to Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist after SB

[Dark Ritual]

This is the list I played last sunday at the Open Dutch Legacy Championship:

"Thalia Zoo"

20 Land:
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

29 Creatures:
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Loxodon Smiter

11 Spells:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast/REB
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip


People tend to play Relic of Progenitus against decks with Knight of the Reliquary & Tarmogoyf around here simply because it's great against Dredge and other graveyard based decks as well, so Loxodon Smiter was the choice I made. I don't like using utility lands anyway because in most cases it is to slow to acivate your Knight of the Reliquary in turn 4 to acutally grab it. The Loxodon Smiter was a real house against RUG Delver. Plus it's neat against Hymn to Tourach as well. Loxodon Smiter is my new favorite creature in Zoo. I am surprised not more people play him.

The Granger Guildmage is really good in creature matchups to push trough extra damage or having your opponent sacrifice his creature due to the first strike. Also it's amazing against RUG Delver (Tarmogoyfs blocking eachother anyone? As well as Delver of Secrets), Maverick, Lingering Souls, Goblins, Elves, Snapcaster Mage, Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant and creatures I forgot to mention. He's a lot better as a turn 1 drop than Grim Lavamancer is. I guess I am cutting a Grim for a 2nd Granger Guildmage maindeck.

In the end I went 4-3:
R1 vs Tezzeret Control: loss 2-1 (due to Ensnaring bridge)
R2 vs B/R/G Zombies: win 2-0
R3 vs Burn: win 2-0
R4 vs MUD: loss 2-1 (due to wurmcoil engine & steel hellkite)
R5 vs RUG Delver: win 2-1 due to Granger Guildmage and Loxodon Smiter
R6 vs ANT: 2-0 loss (started with game loss due to being late...)
R7 vs U/G Enchantress: 2-1 win due to Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist after SB

The only real upside to smiter over KotR is that smiter is uncounterable. The discard bonus thing will be relevant once in a great while although it depends on how much discard you face. Over here discard isn't that played because discard < brainstorm.

Against RUG smiter is going to be smaller than their goyf. Don't really see the advantage of running it as knight of the reliquary resolving means the RUG player is almost going to auto lose unless they have submerge. And last I checked the RUG matchup is extremely favorable for zoo, as their mongeese are very dead and delver is going to bite the dust hard when we resolve lavamancer or any burn spell targeting it as well as PtE. Goyf wars favor us as we run qasali pridemage for exalted or we can just overwhelm them by spamming creatures. Last I checked the only problems zoo has are combo decks, find a way to make combo winnable and zoo would be very viable deck. Although I don't see how zoo can beat show and tell strategies short of 8 hard counters in the board (4 REB 4 pyro to counter SnT and even then you aren't that heavily favored.)

@Leto: Goblin guide is leagues ahead of vexing devil. In fact it will typically get in more damage than a vexing devil trigger will and when the ground is clogged up vexing devil isn't exactly potent as a 4 damage lava spike. In a list with a lot of one drops I don't see the point of not running guide.

[Vandalize]

I've been brewing some form of Zoo, and taken some ideas from recent lists:

Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Critters [25]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Granger Guildmage

Spells [13]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rancor

Sideboard [15]
3 Price of Progress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

Maindeck seems a mess, but it works. I've had a few awkward times with Rancor + Thalia, but I guess that happens. They're both good cards to keep up aggresion and disruption. Rancor is pretty good against stalling from GW Maverick or Rockish/Bant lists.

This deck utterly fails against combo, mostly Show and Tell. With a miser Karakas in sideboard and some Red Blasts that's not even close to enough, so you might want to dodge those matchups. UW Miracles and Stoneblade seems like a lesser hard time. I believe Zoo has a better game against them than Maverick does, because of reach from burn and fast threats like good old Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacatl. I've had my Nacatl FoWed plenty of times. They know the cat scratches hard. Rancor shines bright against Terminus, because you don't need to overextend to push massive damage, but be aware of point removal, as they can 2-1 you if you're not paying attention.

Swords to Plowshares is an ancient non-go in a Zoo list, but its synergy with Thalia and Wasteland is pretty awesome, and they're better suited for this build. Everything else is pretty standard, 3 Qasali Pridemage as a minimum, and 4 annoying dudes (3 Grim/1 Granger split). Grim Lavamancer is always 3 in my lists, because I HATE drawing them in multiples.

Moreover, Thalia is pretty good against some decks, and pretty bad against others. Don't try to cast it against GW Maverick or Merfolk, for example. She WILL make your removal expensive, and won't add anything good to the board, as Merfolk is laughs at her 2 power. Of course you can use that to kill another Thalia by legend rule, but that's a corner case.

Try it out, seems worthy.

[Neffy]

It's good to see that people are still loyal to this fine deck and keep testing it!

I'm wondering if an extreme aggro version of the zoo deck could benefit from having 4x Giant growth?
Might be a silly question, but could it potentially be a second set of Lightning Bolts? It can also be used to protect own creatures when blocked by large Goyfs or so.

Silly ideas aside, how do people play against dredge and decks with Chalice of the Void, Deed, EE or other sweepers?
Im not sure which SB cards to use for GY hate (testing Faerie Macabre x3 next time) and how to play when facing these cards. Most often you just want to pump out every creature you draw to kill the opponent off quickly.

Thanks!

[Artlee]

It's good to see that people are still loyal to this fine deck and keep testing it!

I'm wondering if an extreme aggro version of the zoo deck could benefit from having 4x Giant growth?
Might be a silly question, but could it potentially be a second set of Lightning Bolts? It can also be used to protect own creatures when blocked by large Goyfs or so.

Silly ideas aside, how do people play against dredge and decks with Chalice of the Void, Deed, EE or other sweepers?
Im not sure which SB cards to use for GY hate (testing Faerie Macabre x3 next time) and how to play when facing these cards. Most often you just want to pump out every creature you draw to kill the opponent off quickly.

Thanks!

I am pretty sure we can agree that Giant Growth is far away from Lightning Bolt. The problem with GG is that it requires a creature on board and we want our burn to finish the opponent when they have stabilised the board. GG does not provide this option. GG also opens up for the opponent to remove our creature in resp to GG, so he can actually 2-for-1 us.

Against dredge we have a hard matchup. You need to apply some preassure, and eventually you are probably gonna have to kill your own creature to exile bridge from below.

Regarding Chalise and Deed: these are some real hosers against us. There is often nothing we can do when opponent plays ancient tomb into chalise, other than use Green Sun Zenith (if you are running that build), or simply rely on your 2 drops and hope to hit Qasali. Make sure you don't overextend when facing Deed. Play 1-3 creatures and hold on to the rest until opponent cracks the Deed.

As you can see, it is key for us to apply some early preassure. This can be done with 2-3 creatures very fast if the curve is right. Then you can play your second wave of creatures if opponent wipes the board. Alternatively you finish off with burn. This is also the reason you dont always use burn on opponents creatures. You need to consider: "can my creature(s) deal more damage than my burn spell by connecting more than 1 time?". I have won many games by saving approx 4 burn spells after som early beating. Think about it, we can easily deal 8 damage with our creatures if we get some early preassure.

[Neffy]

@Artlee:

Yeah i agree with those things. Getting rid of the Bridges and maybe removing moebas would be a nice way to go. I see that applying early pressure is the key but also you need to hold back if you suspect an impending sweeper effect. I guess its about finding a trade off of both.

Another thing I would like to know is how you people have built your SBs. I did a search of 10 different zoo decks and made a graf of the most popular and used Zoo SB cards (I know the current meta at your gaming place is an influential factor, but go with me here). THe most used cards top10 were, from top down:

Pyroblast/REB -good with anti-blue with all the BUG decks atm..
Tormod's Crypt - GY hate at almost instant speed
Gaddock Teeg - very nice for combo, but difficult to draw without GSZ
Ancient Grudge - nice artifact removal
Faerie Macabre - instant GY hate - limited to 2 cards though
Mindbreak Trap - answer to combo?
Ethersworn Canonist - for elves, storm, etc
Granger Guildmage - 5th lavamancer?
Swords to Plowshares - more removal - gives life tho - good with SUlfuric vortex
Bojuka Bog-Best with KNights in deck
Krosan Grip - answer for tops, deeds or EEs.
Path to Exile - nice removal for very aggro decks
Enlightened Tutor - toolbox card
Karakas - for clique, Taxes and Griselbrand
Price of Progress-very nice burn - useless against most decks and people will play around it
Qasali Pridemage - toolbox critter
Rest in Peace - nice removal, but subject to remova and hits your goyf+lavamancers
Scavenger Ooze - very good GY hate and body, but rather slow for zoo?
Smash to Smithereens - burn, artifact solution
Sulfuric vortex - additionals for slow control decks?
Umezawa's Jitte - always a threat!
Volcanic Fallout - sweeps dredge zombies, goblins and elves - hits most of your own (except potentially nacatl, goyf, kird ape, steppe lynx, knight if used, etc)

How do you SB? Any comments? I think it would be nice with a lot of inputs for comparable analysi (pl?).

My own look like this:
3 Pyroblast
1 Teeg
2 A. grudge
3 Faerie macabre - not sure if they are good but people seems to like them.
2 canonist
3 path to exile (and 1 MD)
1 sulfuric vortex (and 2 MD)

I think i'm pretty covered against both BUG or control decks and GY decks. Combo might be a problem if i dont draw teeg or canonist.

Lets discuss :)

[Demonic_Attorney]

@Artlee:

My own look like this:
3 Pyroblast
1 Teeg
2 A. grudge
3 Faerie macabre - not sure if they are good but people seems to like them.
2 canonist
3 path to exile (and 1 MD)
1 sulfuric vortex (and 2 MD)

I think i'm pretty covered against both BUG or control decks and GY decks. Combo might be a problem if i dont draw teeg or canonist.

Lets discuss :)

First and foremost, all Paths should be main deck. I don't think that this comes down to subjective opinion and is rather solidified fact. I do not see the logic in playing a single Path is Zoo.

Second, on a more personal note, I prefer Surgical Extraction (or even Crypt) over Macabre as they are both more efficient and effective in their purpose.

[Artlee]

First and foremost, all Paths should be main deck. I don't think that this comes down to subjective opinion and is rather solidified fact. I do not see the logic in playing a single Path is Zoo.

Second, on a more personal note, I prefer Surgical Extraction (or even Crypt) over Macabre as they are both more efficient and effective in their purpose.

Well, if you look at the zoo deck that placed second of 350 decks(!), there are 3 swords main. I guess that cracks your "solidified fact". Wanna know why? Because path works bad with Thalia and Wasteland. Path is great in fast zoo decks, like 1 drop zoo with Guide and alike, but when you move towards builds with knight of the reliquary and green zun you can start to look towards swords to plowshares. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I do think that going for path promtly can be a mistake, given the build you are playing.

Decklist is here
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65151

[jtos84]

I'm not sure if how you classify the deck I'm going to post, but I think it may be either zoo, goyf sligh, or a hybrid of the two. I have been playing this deck with favorable results, and I think this deck has what it takes. I am going to run it in a couple trials and if it wins I will keep playing it. Here is the list.

Lands
3 - Plateau
3 - Taiga
2 - Savahna
1 - Bayou
2 - Wasteland
1 - Plains
1 - Forest
1 - Mountain
3 - Windswept Heath
2 - Wooded Foothills
2 - Arid Mesa

Red Spells
4 - Lightning Bolt
4 - Chain Lightning

Green Spells
3 - Green Sun's Zenith
1 - Rancor

White Spells
3 - Lingering Souls
4 - Path to Exile

Artifacts
1 - Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures
4 - Tarmogoyf
4 - Kird Ape
4 - Wild Nacatl
4 - Qasali Pridemage
3 - Nimble Mongoose

Sideboard
1 - Rancor
3 - Scavenging Ooze
4 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Ethersworn Canonist
2 - Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 - Oblivion Ring

I usually only play with cards and archetypes I really like, and I won't play with cards I am not a big fan of although they may be very successful in other builds. That being said I pretty much try to have as much fun as I can while keeping my decks tournament level. Those cards are some of my favorites, and I had been trying to find a good zoo or sligh build to play, and I think this may be it. I hope you try it out and tell me what you think about it.

[jtos84]

I had to change nimble mongoose to scavening ooze for obvious reasons. its been a while since I have played zoo.I had to change the oblivion rings to krosan grips to try and stop life gain. it seems like snapcaster mage and teminus make playing creatures a bad idea in this format. It was never like that before. They said they banned balance for these reasons, and then they print terminus. With terminus they do not even have to discard, so one terminus is like an auto win. Was there some need to hose down the creature decks so badly?

[dsck]

I had to change nimble mongoose to scavening ooze for obvious reasons. its been a while since I have played zoo.I had to change the oblivion rings to krosan grips to try and stop life gain. it seems like snapcaster mage and teminus make playing creatures a bad idea in this format. It was never like that before. They said they banned balance for these reasons, and then they print terminus. With terminus they do not even have to discard, so one terminus is like an auto win. Was there some need to hose down the creature decks so badly?

I personally stopped playing Zoo after Snapcaster was printed. What do you mean by krosan grips over oblivion rings to stop life gain?

[jtos84]

I was going to use oblivion ring for batterskull and jitte, but blue and white decks have more than enoughs tools to make impossible games. I put a couple sulfuric vortexes in the maindeck, and one in the side, and also three krosan grips in the s/b. That bad part is you can never really say anything about cards like terminus because noone ever listens. When they print cards they let them wreck formats for quite a while. This deck has quit a few games before the changes. It has won enough that I would play it in a tournament for sure.

[dsck]

I prefer Ancient Grudge's over Krosan Grips. You can play around terminus by not overextending on board and getting all your guys wiped out. Mongoose is great at that :cool:

[jtos84]

I have learned about not overextending already. I just didn't think the deck would still work when played very conservativley, but it does. I think I am going to take out the green sun's zenith for loam lions. I was not very enthused with that card on paper, but after playing the deck without it I can appreciate its efficiency. I think your right about ancient grudge. What happens when you run into a counterbalance though? The deck has qasali pridemge, but if it is countered that would easily be game.

Despite using cards that arn't even optimal for the deck the wins far outsize the losses. Lingering souls wins quite a few games. Now that I think of it ancient grudge can take out the sensei's divining top when it is activated for the draw. I guess counterbalance is a shot in the dark without top.

[aluisiocsantos]

Played this weekend a 93 people tournament with this deck and ended up in 32nd:


2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Kird Ape
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Granger Guildmage
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing

Was supposed to use 2 more Wasteland instea dof those two Canopy but my cards didn't arrive yet - And I got to lose a match against 12 Post because of that.

My matches were:
Round 1 - RUG Delver - 1x2 lose. I don't remember a lot of that match except he played a Stromkirk Captain lol. I remember it being a very fair match though.

Round 2 - Rug Delver again. 2x1 win! Won first and third games, being the third he having 2 thresholding mangooses and 2 lands in play, and then I play a Tormod and a Reliquary and pray that he doesnt have submerges on his hand. I search for a Wasteland in the end of his turn and for another in my turn, wipe his graveyard with Tormod and he gives up.

Round 3 - Another Canadian! Lost by 0x2. Can't remember much about this game except that I started with a perfect hand on the second game and flooded lands.

Sideboard used for these matches: -2 Kird Ape -1 Karakas -1 Lavamancer -1 Guildmage (since I can't target mangooses nor effectively kill Tarmo I took those out, still effective for Delver, sure) +1 Surgical +Bojuka +Tormod +2 REB/pyroblast

Round 4 - 12 Post - 0x2 - lose. First game was pretty clueless for me as he played an Ancient Tomb, then a second turn island + Show and Tell for Emrakul. I boarded for SaT/Omnitell which was all REB effects + Seal of Cleansing, Gaddock, Krosan, took away most burns.
Game 2 I learn he's actually playing post, and i start with a pretty strong hand, Wastelanding his first post, destroying Explorer's Map. And then he plays a Glacial Chasm, and i have a Reliquary in play. When he gets active I search for a Wasteland and do a tragic mistake: Using it on the Chasm, when he had the lifegaining Post in game. After that he manages to SaT a green Titan and tutors for nonstop Vesuvas and I cant keep track of his lifegaining.

Round 5 - Dredge - 2x1 - Win! Despite being a combo it's one of my best matchups I believe, for the use of Wastelands, Thalia, Gaddock, and tutorable Bojuka Bog. After a long Game 1 i lose it, and then win both second and third games with well placed Thalias and Reliquary + Wasteland.

Round 6 - UR Delver - 2x0 - Win. He had a constant flow of damage on me, but he couldn't keep up with my own plethora of Nacatls and Goyfs PLUS my own burns.

Round 7 - Goblins - 1x1 - Draw! Quite an extended match, won the first round, and he won the second. Third round would be an easy one if I had gotten ANY kind of burns, but instead he'd use more burns than me with pyroknesis and Gempalm. Luckily I had a lot of strong creatures and managed to endure it through all the round.

Next week i should start using a version with 4 Wastelands and a Maze of Ith though, so perhaps i can get more control over the matches. I've been also thinking of trying the Punishing Zoo approach!

[Mark Sun]

What was the rationale for the way you boarded against RUG Delver?

Grim Lavamancer + burn spell is an excellent way to answer Tarmogoyf, and Kird Ape is one of the scarier cards to see in the early game because it makes you the aggressor. I would not have boarded in the GY hate package against them, it's simply not enough. At the most I would have done +2 REB, +1 GSZ, -1 Granger, -2 Pridemage.

[aluisiocsantos]

Now that you mention it, maybe Qasali would have been a nice one indeed, though I think maybe that could give an edge in a Tarmo vs Tarmo situation if I don't have any extra burns. I thought the GY hate would be nice because if not through combat, there's no way to deal with the Mangeese. Kird Ape can't deal with it, Lavamancer can't kill it, so i think the reason behind the way I boarded was mostly taking in account Mangoose, and now that I see, I only won the round where that card mattered the most in the match (round 2). But now that you said that, more GSZ and minus Qasali would prolly make it much more aggressive. I'll write that down!
Maybe against RUG the only GY hate i should bring in is Bojuka? Since Karakas is just a white mana in this match? Or woudl it be worthy keeping just for Thalia's sake?

[Mark Sun]

Now that you mention it, maybe Qasali would have been a nice one indeed, though I think maybe that could give an edge in a Tarmo vs Tarmo situation if I don't have any extra burns. I thought the GY hate would be nice because if not through combat, there's no way to deal with the Mangeese. Kird Ape can't deal with it, Lavamancer can't kill it, so i think the reason behind the way I boarded was mostly taking in account Mangoose, and now that I see, I only won the round where that card mattered the most in the match (round 2). But now that you said that, more GSZ and minus Qasali would prolly make it much more aggressive. I'll write that down!
Maybe against RUG the only GY hate i should bring in is Bojuka? Since Karakas is just a white mana in this match? Or woudl it be worthy keeping just for Thalia's sake?

From my experience (playing RUG Delver heavily now, played Zoo frequently a long time ago), the natural answer to ground shenanigans is having access to 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Knight, which I think is fine even if they have Mongoose available. Kird Ape deals with it in theory because it takes a while to achieve threshold, at which point Zoo has taken its role as the aggressor.

I think Bojuka Bog is actually okay, although (1) I would hate to tutor a whole lot with Knight to begin with due to Submerge, and (2) it doesn't cast anything. Karakas for Thalia is a corner case but is pretty hard for Delver to beat if you have online.

[aluisiocsantos]

Sweet! i'll defiantely behave like that next time I face a Canadian.
Also, talking a bit about my Goblins match, what do you think that would be a good side in? I think I only sided Gaddock (to prevent pyroknesis alone) and GSZ for more creatures - I think I boarded out the Thalias, since that apparently benefits goblins with the Rishadas and Wastes.

Also feel free to sugest stuff not featured in my own sideboard.

[Vandalize]

Sweet! i'll defiantely behave like that next time I face a Canadian.
Also, talking a bit about my Goblins match, what do you think that would be a good side in? I think I only sided Gaddock (to prevent pyroknesis alone) and GSZ for more creatures - I think I boarded out the Thalias, since that apparently benefits goblins with the Rishadas and Wastes.

Also feel free to sugest stuff not featured in my own sideboard.

Goblins is a pretty good matchup for Zoo. Keep pressure with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs in early turns, and burn everything that's dangerous (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief). Rancor puts a good effort on their stalling with tokens.

[Demonic_Attorney]

I have always been an advocate for playing STP over Path; however, if your Zoo build plays Thalia and Wasteland, how can one justify playing Path over Swords?

If there is any cogent argument I would like to know?

[lordofthepit]

Next week i should start using a version with 4 Wastelands and a Maze of Ith though, so perhaps i can get more control over the matches. I've been also thinking of trying the Punishing Zoo approach!

I'm probably the biggest advocate of Punishing Fire in Zoo--or at least I was. It really shined against opposing tribal decks, against various midrange decks with easily removable dorks, and against slow control strategies.

Although the engine is admittedly very good against Maverick (as you should get some nice utility before they waste your Groves away), you don't really need Punishing Fires to beat tribal decks. Furthermore, it's still miserable against combo decks. It's not great against the pre-eminent tempo strategy (RUG Delver), although it occasionally has its uses if they're down to Delvers and Goyfs staring at yours. And the only real control strategy (Miracles) in the format now plays Counterbalance to lock out your twos, Rest in Peace to effectively get neuter it, as well as Entreat the Angels to outrace you if you're forced to rely on burning their face with Punishing Fire. In short, this strategy has lost a lot of its luster.

[aluisiocsantos]

Goblins is a pretty good matchup for Zoo. Keep pressure with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs in early turns, and burn everything that's dangerous (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief). Rancor puts a good effort on their stalling with tokens.

I should totally try tinkering again with rancor, they are awesome paired with Tarmo/Reliq/Ape, though maybe to make them as effective as possible probably I'd have to try a more "Burn" approach with PoP, Fireblast? Going for the quick kill.


I have always been an advocate for playing STP over Path; however, if your Zoo build plays Thalia and Wasteland, how can one justify playing Path over Swords?

If there is any cogent argument I would like to know?

I'm not sure if that comment is targetted at me as I use StP too, but yeah, if yes, the reasoning is that: if I'm trying to soft-lock their mana base with Wastes (not perfect right now as I currently have only 2 Wastes, the ideal would be 4 here I think) and Thalia, theres no reason why I should play Path to Exile and give them lands. Same reasoning also for not playing Goblin Guide. Guide and Path are great IMO but in builds that aim to kill real quick, but Thalia can be quite the life saver against a wide range of decks, combo included. And since I'm playing Knight in the deck it all makes even more sense to tutor some wastes and lock them forever. It's pretty annoying when you get to decks such as High Tide though haha, that have only Basic lands.


I'm probably the biggest advocate of Punishing Fire in Zoo--or at least I was. It really shined against opposing tribal decks, against various midrange decks with easily removable dorks, and against slow control strategies.

Although the engine is admittedly very good against Maverick (as you should get some nice utility before they waste your Groves away), you don't really need Punishing Fires to beat tribal decks. Furthermore, it's still miserable against combo decks. It's not great against the pre-eminent tempo strategy (RUG Delver), although it occasionally has its uses if they're down to Delvers and Goyfs staring at yours. And the only real control strategy (Miracles) in the format now plays Counterbalance to lock out your twos, Rest in Peace to effectively get neuter it, as well as Entreat the Angels to outrace you if you're forced to rely on burning their face with Punishing Fire. In short, this strategy has lost a lot of its luster.

I totally hear you, Rest in Peace is such an annoying card! It already OHKO this deck when using Knight, Lavamancer and Tarmogoyf, and playing Punishing Fire would be one more contender to be thrown into oblivion haha. But the concept of the approach is very seducing for the way it works - Probably not worth working with Thalia maindeck too? 3 manas (plus 1 getting it from GY) for 2 damage sounds a bit heavy though I guess that build would also use some Nobles..

Talking about it, what do you think that would be the best way to deal with the UW Miracles/RIP build? Krosan Grip is nice and all, but if the opponent gets lucky he might have an Oblivion Ring on top and still counter it. I haven't faced the deck many times yet in brazillian meta, but the times I did was sooo annoying, and such a hard match!

[Neffy]

what do you think that would be the best way to deal with the UW Miracles/RIP build?

I am trying to build a deck that uses RIP itself, as it hurts quite a lot of decks in my meta. That means not using goyf mainly. I am trying a faster build like the one that placed 2nd at Liga Montserrat Legacy.

Talking about this deck (link: ) I am considering trying out thunderous wrath as a two off and because miracle is quite fun. However do anyone have experience with this card in Zoo? It burns a lot of life away and goes well with sylvan library, but really sux if you draw it in your opening hand?

EDIT: I am also toying with using a singleton ranger of eos - which could work quite nice with vexing devils. Any thoughts? (And i know the arguments for and against vexing devils ;), so no need for those again)

[aluisiocsantos]

I think it's a very interesting idea! It's kind of weird to think about not using Goyfs, but I see where your argument is, specially if you are gonna use RIP yourself - which means you won't have fear of Mangooses, Goyfs, Knights with those in play. Is this the list you're referring to?

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Vexing Devil
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [13]
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
3 Thunderous Wrath
4 Lightning Bolt


Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning

Enchantments [4]
2 Rancor
2 Sylvan Library

Lands [20]
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa

SB
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor

It sounds pretty powerful indeed! Ranger of Eos sounds very powerful while using so many 1 drops. Considering you want to also run Thunderous Wrath, AND this 4cc card, have you considered testing out Noble Hierarch too? Might be cool if youre hitting with just one guy, and then also help cast the Ranger and a Thunderous Wrath you had to keep in your opening hand in case the rest of the hand would be too strong to pass. Besides - You wouldn't lose a turn casting Sylvan Library.

[Neffy]

Yeah that is the list.
I think it looks really fun and the use of rancor speaks to me.
Using RIP in the SB is nice but still hurts your lavaman which can be a problem, but i think i would just board them out then the RIPs go in.

Using Nobles would help, but you dont really want to use first turns mana on them instead of throwing out Nacatls or Guides. I am testing the ranger devil "combo" out, but the ranger could be diffiult to field without ramping (However exalted could be nice (if you dont wonna attack full throttle later on though). I used him before however which was nice, but it lacked power, since getting a lavaman or two or 2x guides at turn 5 most likely will be too late as bigger creatures are out to block by then. Fetching two vexing devils and either forcing the opponent to counter the them the next turn or take 8 damage would be brutal. Plus the 3+ power of attacking creatures you have at that time. So to me it looks a really strong late game tactic for the deck where it lacks some (if you are unlucky to get to a late game that is...)

About the Thunderous Wraths I am really torn as it is almost a completely dead card the entire game if you start draw it and you have no Brainstorm effects to help you with that later.. On the other hand 5 damage is really nice no matter what turn you play it on and can deal with Tombstalkers, most goyfs and knights.
The mana base on the deck is also annoying me a bit as could be difficult to cast white/green coloured spells after SBing if the opponent wastes you or you Fireblast your lands away.

[aluisiocsantos]

Yeah, I only mentioned the Nobles because I've seen both them and Ranger in some "Big Zoo" lists.
Thunderous Wrath could work well on the Blue Zoo approach. There's a nice list on TCDecks, with Delver of Secrets and Vendillion Clique added to the fray, plus the cantrips - And Thunderous could fit here (no idea why it isn't present on the list): http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9284&iddeck=67763

[Neffy]

Yeah, I only mentioned the Nobles because I've seen both them and Ranger in some "Big Zoo" lists.
Thunderous Wrath could work well on the Blue Zoo approach. There's a nice list on TCDecks, with Delver of Secrets and Vendillion Clique added to the fray, plus the cantrips - And Thunderous could fit here (no idea why it isn't present on the list): http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9284&iddeck=67763

True. The idea of using Th. Wraths could maybe be a nice take on the burning package. Clique is nice, but is it "too blue"? Might be difficult to get it out if you play 4 color blue zoo?
I am thinking something of something like:

Thunderous Zoo
4x Thunderous Wrath R
4x Lightning Bolt R
4x Brainstorm U
4x Swords to Plowshares (if going big zoo style) /Path to Exile (aggressive zoo style) W

4x Delver of Secrets U
4x Noble Hierarch G
2-3x Grim Lavamancer R
1-2x Vendilion Clique U
4x Wild Nacatl G
4x Vexing Devil R
1x Ranger of Eos W
2x rancor / 2x sylvan library G
Mana symbols (10G, 5W, 15R, 10U)

19 lands?

The very few white mana sources could maybe help the mana base, and the white from Nobles should help also. The Plains required for Nacatl is an issue, but if you run various duals you should manage I guess? Which basics would be possible to run do you think?

[aluisiocsantos]

Thunderous Zoo
4x Thunderous Wrath R
4x Lightning Bolt R
4x Brainstorm U
4x Swords to Plowshares (if going big zoo style) /Path to Exile (aggressive zoo style) W

4x Delver of Secrets U
4x Noble Hierarch G
2-3x Grim Lavamancer R
1-2x Vendilion Clique U
4x Wild Nacatl G
4x Vexing Devil R
1x Ranger of Eos W
2x rancor / 2x sylvan library G
Mana symbols (10G, 5W, 15R, 10U)

19 lands?

His list runs both a basic Plains and a Karakas - no Islands. In other hands his list has more blue cards than white, so that was a bit weird. I like that using Ranger of Eos have a more effective use than a GSZ, because it goes as a 3-for-1 - Everything is a one drop here, which is nice. In other hand I don't see any Qasalis in your list so maybe you'll have to make up to it with art/enchant hate on the sideboard (since we have more mana options I'd say Krosan Grip).

Since your deck doesnt depend on an island, but does for a plains (protecting Nacatl) maybe it's worth considering trading a Karakas for either an Island or a Volcanic Island. OH and I'd say Sylvan Library over Rancor since the idea here is to be able to effectively play Thunderous Wrath.

As for Clique, I dunno, some lists have been using Reliquary, which is also a 3 mana, 2 colors card. May btry out running just one or two and see what gives. I like that it can also protect you from combos though, by removing cards from a players hand. In the 93 players tourney I went a couple weeks back ShowandTell decks was the second most played deck (15-20 people, first one was RUG Delver), so you gotta be somewhat prepared for that.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Can we play something like this?

22 Land
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy

24 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Stoneforge Mystic

14 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

[Neffy]

Can we play something like this?

22 Land
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy

24 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Stoneforge Mystic

14 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

I think the list looks fun, but its not much a zoo deck is it? WIth deathrites its pretty slow and he and grim lavamancer maybe have some dissynergy? And makes the goyf smaller.
I do like the use of SoWaP as it can be a pain in the ass for more controllish decks or slow-goers. I am also looking at a WUB Zoo and maybe here it could shine. I will post a list at some point.

[aluisiocsantos]

The sound of a WUB zoo is really cute, hehe.

[Neffy]

The sound of a WUB zoo is really cute, hehe.

Turns out I cant spell. WUR is what i meant ;)
Stay tuned.

A

[Hanni]

Turns out I cant spell. WUR is what i meant ;)

Kinda like Blue Sligh?

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

With the recent rise of team america style decks into the forefront of the legacy metagame, does anyone else feel like zoo and other fast aggro decks might be able to make a comeback? Less people are playing show and tell lately, and I feel as though zoo may have a chance to come back out of the woodwork.