[Deck] Zoo

[Arctic_Slicer]

Hey I may have just missed it somewhere while catching up (Im kinda tired) but has anyone tried using a couple Knight of New Alara at all? The pridemage is awesome, but I like the thought of an 8/7 thoctar pre-jitte. Or even a 5/5 watch wolf.

I may try it, just curious if any of you had.

I think people don't play him because he himself is a 2/2 for 4 mana. He has a nice ability but I don't think it justifies the cost to play him.

[from Cairo]

The Bloodbraid Elf seems strictly better (in terms of Alara Reborn 4cc agro cards in RGW) and it's not seeing play. Knight of New Alara is only good with another guy on board, not only does there need to be another guy, but it needs to be Pridemage, Thoctar or Watchwolf. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't require anything and can help in the late game by providing card advantage: either by some reach if you cascade a burn spell or by putting two guys on board after a sweeper or something.

That said I don't think either of them have a place here, just if one did, I'd use the Elf over the Knight all day long.

[jimmerz213]

Yea, thats a good point. I was thinking more about it on the way to work today, Im not going to try to make it work. Hes too weak by himself and doesnt help enough of the deck.
I am going to try the pridemage though, he intrigues me.

[keys]

Forget Bloodbraid Elf and KoNA, you guys should really test Dauntless Escort in the place of Thoctar. He lets you dump your hand without worrying about sweepers like EE, Deed, Flamebreak, etc. That way you keep up tempo. He was made for this deck, IMHO...

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Forget Bloodbraid Elf and KoNA, you guys should really test Dauntless Escort in the place of Thoctar. He lets you dump your hand without worrying about sweepers like EE, Deed, Flamebreak, etc. That way you keep up tempo. He was made for this deck, IMHO...

I guess he would be a good sacrificial lamb. It just feels weird with him in the deck though. You want more than a 3/3 when you pay 3 mana ya know? I could see him being okay at best, but hey i'll test him i suppose.

[keys]

The only thing is he doesn't stop Plow from hitting your guys. Still seems more useful than Thoctar, though. Who cares about the 2 extra power. I'd rather make sure that my 5/6 Goyf and army of 3/3s stick around to go the distance.

[from Cairo]

IDK seems more like a SB card if it's playable at all.

Sweepers aren't too heavily played, unless Rock and UWx Landstill are very prevalent in ones' meta. Versus the early Deed or EE, I think Pridemage shines, since for the first 3-4 turns they can't 2 for 1 you with them, and if you get a Pridemage you can "Escort" your other threat. Not to mention it's alot better against non-sweeper issues (Vedalken Shackles, Crucible+Mishra's, Umezawa's Jitte). I guess Escort might be ok in the SB as an answer to post board Firespout/Flamebreak, even still it seems better to just not over extend into those spells and force them to trade 1 for 1 with you, rather than run out a shitty creature. Dauntless Escort still goes 1 for 1 with the removal it protects your guys from, so while it is nice to save a guy that might be on board at the time, the zoo player isn't gaining card advantage. If I was going to run something like that in the SB I think Pithing Needle would be a better answer to Deed/EE, while having wider application against other strategies/problems.

[keys]

If there's a Pridemage already in play, won't EE and Deed get blown the turn they come into play? I don't think that these two are mutually exclusive, anyway. I'd replace Watchwolf/Thoctar first.

Escort isn't card advantage in himself, but he does prevent your opponents from getting card advantage from their board sweepers.

That said, Needle may be better than Escort in a lot of situations, but it doesn't swing for 3. We're discussing the 3cc maindeck spot, not the SB. Escort sets up a nice curve.

[Valtrix]

The thing about pridemage is that if an EE/Deed is was tapped out for, then you can destroy it with the mage. However, if they haven't played it yet, then you're slowing them down a lot, because suddenly they have to wait until they have enough mana to both play their spell and activate the ability. Even if you don't get to straight deal with those type of cards, he still gives you a huge tempo advantage.

Also, escort seems terrible in the main. I don't think that the biggest problem that this deck faces are board sweepers, since they're just not played all that much. Plus, your creatures are so good that a lot of times you don't even need to overextend yourself. So, if we don't face this problem much, why should we bother with some subpar creature to fix the "problem"? Sure, play him if you have a ton of board sweepers in your meta, but I don't think it's actually what this deck needs.

That said, it could also be a possible answer against devastating dreams for aggro loam...I keep trying to think how this deck can ever beat aggro loam. Does anybody have stats against it?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Zoo is by far my favorite deck to play. I played the following list at a tournament at my local store a couple weeks ago and won the whole thing.

4x Wild Nacatl
3x Mogg Fanatic
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Gaddock Teeg
2x Duergar Hedge Mage
2x Ranger of Eos
1x Figure of Destiny
1x Mother of Runes
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Reckless Charge
1x Jitte
3x Path to Exile
1x Taiga
1x Stomping Grounds(Obviously would be Taiga but I could only find one to borrow)
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
1x Pendelhaven
3x Bloodstained Mire

sb:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Path to Exile
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
1x Jitte

Anyway, the tournament went pretty smoothly. Round 1 I played against a guy playing an enchantress-like combo deck with solitary confinement, but I won mostly because of Teeg landing turn 2 games two and three and him not drawing enough answers. I then played against Thresh which I stomped handily thanks to reckless charge on a fresh 6/7 goyf when he had tapped all his guys to attack me. I played goblins in round 3 and we went to game 3 which I would have easily won if not for drawing 6 lands in a row and 0 fallouts all game. Round 4 I played against a b/w control deck with korlash and vindicate and won fairly easily.

In the top 8 I played against a guy playing a really bad bomberman/nostick deck that dropped standstill on me while I had a nacatl and lavamancer on the board. Obviously I won. Then I played against a guy playing a u/r/w fish sort of deck with trinket mage and engineered explosives, but Teeg pretty much shut down his game plan. Finally I played against Dreadstill in the finals and won 2-0 on the back of duergar hedgemage being ridiculous.

Anyway, that was before Reborn came out, and obviously now I'd like to fit in Pridemage. I liked Grim Lavamancer all day, as he is pretty phenomenal against the other aggro decks, and can give you a huge boost in goyf fights and other board stalls. I didn't play Kird Ape mostly because I couldn't get my hands on any before the tournament, but I'm not sure if I really like him that much anyway. I might play him over fanatic next time, since I don't think fanatic is as good as I want him to be. The pendelhaven was awesome, pumping my fanatics and lavamancers all day, but if I was to cut fanatics I'd probably cut it for a basic plains. Also, Reckless Charge is incredibly. I never play Zoo without it, and its power is just incredible. On turn three you can drop a goyf or nacatl on turn two and charge it, and it just gets so much extra damage in. I highly recommend you guys try it out.

The mother of runes and figure of destiny were in the deck as a tutor package for ranger of eos, but I don't think I'll be playing with that again. Ranger was decent but not great, and I'd rather have a cheaper creature, and fig and mother never did enough to really be worth having around.

Anyway, I'm playing in a local tournament for a black lotus at the end of this month and am deciding to between playing this and Dragon Stompy. Here's the list I'm thinking of running:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Gaddock Teeg
2x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Reckless Charge
1x Jitte
3x Path to Exile
3x Plateau
3x Taiga
2x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
2x Jitte

I've been testing with Knight of the Reliquary in the thoctar slot and absolutely love it. He's a huge threat, and is great for thinning through your deck. Every fetch land you grab is +2/+2 and 2 less lands to draw. I'd highly recommend trying him. I also feel safe running path over Swords since hardly any decks have basics anyway. I've gotten so many free paths over the last couple months that I'm confident it's a viable choice. I'm also surprised by the lack of MD combo hate in the lists here. I feel like it's neccesary, even though combo isn't huge in the meta right now, but Teeg is good against control too since a lot of people are playing EE and he always stops FoW.

I find it interesting that you guys are running cursed scrolls in the list you have posted here. Is it really that good for you? I feel like Lavamancer is more powerful.

I'd also consider throwing Aether Vial somewhere in the list, but I can't figure out where...

Anyway, any advice?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Zoo is by far my favorite deck to play. I played the following list at a tournament at my local store a couple weeks ago and won the whole thing.

4x Wild Nacatl
3x Mogg Fanatic
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Gaddock Teeg
2x Duergar Hedge Mage
2x Ranger of Eos
1x Figure of Destiny
1x Mother of Runes
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Reckless Charge
1x Jitte
3x Path to Exile
1x Taiga
1x Stomping Grounds(Obviously would be Taiga but I could only find one to borrow)
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
1x Pendelhaven
3x Bloodstained Mire

sb:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Path to Exile
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
1x Jitte

Anyway, the tournament went pretty smoothly. Round 1 I played against a guy playing an enchantress-like combo deck with solitary confinement, but I won mostly because of Teeg landing turn 2 games two and three and him not drawing enough answers. I then played against Thresh which I stomped handily thanks to reckless charge on a fresh 6/7 goyf when he had tapped all his guys to attack me. I played goblins in round 3 and we went to game 3 which I would have easily won if not for drawing 6 lands in a row and 0 fallouts all game. Round 4 I played against a b/w control deck with korlash and vindicate and won fairly easily.

In the top 8 I played against a guy playing a really bad bomberman/nostick deck that dropped standstill on me while I had a nacatl and lavamancer on the board. Obviously I won. Then I played against a guy playing a u/r/w fish sort of deck with trinket mage and engineered explosives, but Teeg pretty much shut down his game plan. Finally I played against Dreadstill in the finals and won 2-0 on the back of duergar hedgemage being ridiculous.

Anyway, that was before Reborn came out, and obviously now I'd like to fit in Pridemage. I liked Grim Lavamancer all day, as he is pretty phenomenal against the other aggro decks, and can give you a huge boost in goyf fights and other board stalls. I didn't play Kird Ape mostly because I couldn't get my hands on any before the tournament, but I'm not sure if I really like him that much anyway. I might play him over fanatic next time, since I don't think fanatic is as good as I want him to be. The pendelhaven was awesome, pumping my fanatics and lavamancers all day, but if I was to cut fanatics I'd probably cut it for a basic plains. Also, Reckless Charge is incredibly. I never play Zoo without it, and its power is just incredible. On turn three you can drop a goyf or nacatl on turn two and charge it, and it just gets so much extra damage in. I highly recommend you guys try it out.

The mother of runes and figure of destiny were in the deck as a tutor package for ranger of eos, but I don't think I'll be playing with that again. Ranger was decent but not great, and I'd rather have a cheaper creature, and fig and mother never did enough to really be worth having around.

Anyway, I'm playing in a local tournament for a black lotus at the end of this month and am deciding to between playing this and Dragon Stompy. Here's the list I'm thinking of running:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Gaddock Teeg
2x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Reckless Charge
1x Jitte
3x Path to Exile
3x Plateau
3x Taiga
2x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
2x Jitte

I've been testing with Knight of the Reliquary in the thoctar slot and absolutely love it. He's a huge threat, and is great for thinning through your deck. Every fetch land you grab is +2/+2 and 2 less lands to draw. I'd highly recommend trying him. I also feel safe running path over Swords since hardly any decks have basics anyway. I've gotten so many free paths over the last couple months that I'm confident it's a viable choice. I'm also surprised by the lack of MD combo hate in the lists here. I feel like it's neccesary, even though combo isn't huge in the meta right now, but Teeg is good against control too since a lot of people are playing EE and he always stops FoW.

I find it interesting that you guys are running cursed scrolls in the list you have posted here. Is it really that good for you? I feel like Lavamancer is more powerful.

I'd also consider throwing Aether Vial somewhere in the list, but I can't figure out where...

Anyway, any advice?

I've always kinda liked Reckless Charge since i ran it in Extended the season before last. It seems kinda situational and stuff. Reminds me of Rancor, bad topdeck late game when you don't have a dude to use it on. But if it works for you, it works for you!

Why 4 Teeg, i understand how good he is, but drawing multiples must suck, and in some matchups he has to be a just a bear. I guess if you need him that bad in your meta run him, but besides that I'd SB him.

I'm liking PTE more and more for the deck, so i'm actually thinking about replacing swords for it. I mean you don't run any mana denial so i don't see how it could be that bad. I mean you could remove a blocker and potentially kill them and them get a tapped land that they can use next turn, or you can let them gain life.. Idk i'm torn.

About Knight, he seems good but with just 20 lands and legacy being the mana denial format, it just doesn't seem like you could consistently cast him ya know?

The random main deck Jitte seems random, but hey Jitte is always good so i can't complain about it haha. Plus you have more in the board so it's all good.

[Pienterekaak]

i currently dont play zoo, but me and a team mate thought alot about it, and were quite confidant that path to exile is better than a stp.
why:
Path to exile gives our opponent 1 land, which kinda means we give him a extra turn (they can cast their doomsday spells 1 turn faster)

Swords to plowshares on goyf means they gain 4-5 life. Bolt only deals 3 damage... meaning you need 2 spells to make up for the life gain, which is essentially 2 turns.

thus path is better in our opinion, since you do not delay the turn your kill in.

[hungryLIKEALION]

@Loxodon Baileyarch-
yeah, Charge is very situational, but that's why I only run 3. If I have one in my opening hand I'm almost always very happy to see it. If I wanted to avoid it as a bad topdeck, what should I put in? Watchwolf? Maybe another burn spell?

As for Teeg, sometimes I run Ethersworn Canonist in his slot depending on what the meta looks like that day, but I feel confident in Teeg's 4-of status. I never want to feel like a dog to combo decks when I play an aggro deck, and I feel like Zoo can't beat a combo deck without him or Canonist main. When I draw multiples I usually just try to trade the first one with a creature of there's, like a trinket mage or whatever.

My main argument for why I run Path over STP is that Thresh, 4c balance, and team america, three of the most popular decks in the format, all eschew basics entirely. Against Gobs or 'Folk I'd rather have swords since their creatures are small, but I don't feel bad about it given how many goyfs are in the format, and giving an opponent 5-6 life really sucks.

So you'd say I should increase the land count if I want to play Knight of the Reliquary? would 22 be good do you think?

The Jitte is there mostly because I like to draw it when I do, but when I don't I don't usually need it in game one. It's really good against gobs and 'folk, so I bring the extras in, plus fallouts (And sometimes canonists against gobs...)

Alright, you've given me some new ideas. I'm gonna alter the list. I'll start testing it as follows:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Watchwolf
1x Jitte
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
2x Reckless Charge

20x same lands as before.

Would that be better, do you think? That way I can draw two teegs less often, get stuck with less dead charges but still have access to them, and Watchwolf will be easier to cast under wastelands than Knight would.

[keys]

Your mana curve is suspect to me, with fifteen 2cc creatures, and only eleven 1cc. I would throw in a couple Isamaru and the fourth Lavamancer in place of Watchwolf. I'd also probably play a second Jitte instead of that single Canonist, which seems really bad maindeck.

[hungryLIKEALION]

The purpose of the canonist is that it's an anti-combo card. I refuse to play less than four MD anti-combo cards, since I don't want to be unable to win G1s against Tendrils, so it's either that or the 4th teeg back main.

And I'd rather have more 2 drops than 1 drops. I'm not sure I like dropping the knights for watchwolves though. I might drop the wolves and put the knights and 3rd charge back in.

[Pulp_Fiction]

OMG!!! This is getting old, seriously, i have been drinking but uts beside the point. Look to the opening post for decklists. IF YOUR DECK DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THE OPENING POST OR SOMEWHAT SIMILAR POST IN THE DAMN GOYF SLIGH THREAD!!!!

[Sims]

OMG!!! This is getting old, seriously, i have been drinking but uts beside the point. Look to the opening post for decklists. IF YOUR DECK DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THE OPENING POST OR SOMEWHAT SIMILAR POST IN THE DAMN GOYF SLIGH THREAD!!!!

Or not. I will be rather pissy if the Goyf Sligh thread becomes filled with 3 color zoo decks just because they don't adhere to your decklist. P_R gets angry when he has to edit off-topic posts and decklists out of threads, and we don't want that.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm pretty sure my deck is obviously a Zoo deck, so I don't know what you're freaking out about, dude.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Loxodon Baileyarch-
yeah, Charge is very situational, but that's why I only run 3. If I have one in my opening hand I'm almost always very happy to see it. If I wanted to avoid it as a bad topdeck, what should I put in? Watchwolf? Maybe another burn spell?

As for Teeg, sometimes I run Ethersworn Canonist in his slot depending on what the meta looks like that day, but I feel confident in Teeg's 4-of status. I never want to feel like a dog to combo decks when I play an aggro deck, and I feel like Zoo can't beat a combo deck without him or Canonist main. When I draw multiples I usually just try to trade the first one with a creature of there's, like a trinket mage or whatever.

My main argument for why I run Path over STP is that Thresh, 4c balance, and team america, three of the most popular decks in the format, all eschew basics entirely. Against Gobs or 'Folk I'd rather have swords since their creatures are small, but I don't feel bad about it given how many goyfs are in the format, and giving an opponent 5-6 life really sucks.

So you'd say I should increase the land count if I want to play Knight of the Reliquary? would 22 be good do you think?

The Jitte is there mostly because I like to draw it when I do, but when I don't I don't usually need it in game one. It's really good against gobs and 'folk, so I bring the extras in, plus fallouts (And sometimes canonists against gobs...)

Alright, you've given me some new ideas. I'm gonna alter the list. I'll start testing it as follows:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Watchwolf
1x Jitte
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
2x Reckless Charge

20x same lands as before.

Would that be better, do you think? That way I can draw two teegs less often, get stuck with less dead charges but still have access to them, and Watchwolf will be easier to cast under wastelands than Knight would.

Well if you're going down to 2 Reckless Charge, then i would just suggest cutting them all together. Maybe for Cursed Scroll or Chain Lightning.

I understand your dedication to Combo with maindeck slots to it. I would suggest just run Teeg as a two of and then run a 2of of something else, but you like having them so hey i understand.

I would try and maximize PTE. It's just too good to run as a 3 of. Also, you'd have to run at least 21 lands to consistently cast KotR. I'd go with 22 if you ran him, but at that point i wouldn't even run him ya know?

What you say about Jitte is right, but Gobs and Merfolk is already a really good matchup for you so i wouldn't run it just because of that. It's a really powerful card, and i run it as a 2of and i'm always happy to draw it. It just ends the game quickly too.

I'm gonna suggest some Pithing Needles in the board as well. They are SO FUCKING HELPFUL. If you feel like you need the 4th Teeg and the 2, 3, and 4th Cannonist then ok i guess. Is there alot of combo in your meta or are you just that scared of it? lol

[joey223]

hello all!
just wanted to say i love playing this zoo deck and i am liking it more and more every day!
i first started out with the pro tour chicago list here:http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/top8decks
the same one brian six played.

but for my meta i needed a little something extra.so i dropped some burn and added more creatures and some utility.the reason is i wanted some main deck game 1 answers to counterbalance and other artifacts and enchantments that ruin our fun.
here is a list i am playing:

creatures:
4 grim lavamancer
4 wild nactl
4 kird ape
4 woolly thoctar
4 tarmogoyf

spells:
4 bolts
4 chain lightning
4 lightning helix
4 krosan grip
4 swords to plowshare

land:
3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
3 wooded foothills ( thats all i own)
4 bloodstained mire
1 windswept heath ( thats all i own)
1 plains
1 forest
1 mountain

sideboard:
2 pyroclasm
3 shusher
3 null rod
3 relic of progenitus
4 pyrostatic pillar

so i take this to a tourney.

1st opponent combo. ugh...ANT.this is BAD matchup!

game one:

turn 1 i drop taiga and kird ape.
he drops a land .
turn 2 i drop a land, wild nactl ,i beat for 2.
he drops another land and divining top.he cant combo off yet.so i am thinking i have a chance.
turn 3 i swing in for 5 ,lay a land ,drop goyf.
he drops a land and tries to combo off.i sit for like 10 minutes watching him play card after card and finally he concedes after seeing he cant combo off.

game 2 :i side out 4 STP, 2 chain lighting ,and 1 lavamancer.
in come three null rod and 4 pyro. pillar.

but it does not matter. i see 1 null rod in game 2 after mulling to 5.
it slows him down until he draws bounce. he gets the combo and wins in 4 turns.

game 3 i see nothing of good use and mull again to 5 .does not matter,he combos off turn 2.

yuck! hate that matchup.that is a very consistent deck.

0-1

2nd opponent.looks like a home brew aggro elementals with lots of little tricks
and lots of burn.really cool deck!

game one:

i keep a hand full of burn and 1 kird ape and 1 lavamancer.
so to sum up this game i burn every creature he plays and then again with the lavamancer.
ape goes the distance!
he is playing some artifacts:chrome mox ,ether vail, and something else but cant for the life of me remember.anyhoo its enuff for me to bring in 3 null rod.

game 2:

i side out 2 chain lightning,1 lavamancer ,

in come 3 null rod

vice versa! he burns every creature i try to play ,assembles a huge army of creatures and beats me down !

game 3:

i think about bringing in pyroclasm but most of his creatures are out of range.
so i leave it as is.

turn 1 i drop nactl and beat with it for 3 turns before he sees a creature ,a burning tree shaman.
he has chrome mox and vial in play .i manage to kill the shaman with a bolt and a lavamancer activation ,drop a null rod and win with wild kitty and lavamancer. i win. WOOHOO!


1-1


3rd opponent: imperial painter.really cool deck.

game 1 :he drops magus of the moon 1st turn with mountain, chrome mox and simian spirit guide.
i burn the magus with a bolt ,drop kird ape ,beat with it for a few turns ,drop a thoctar and then burn any blockers he drops.2 turns later he scoops.

i was saying to myself that if i can steal game 1 and then side in cards in game 2 i have a good chance of winning this matchup.and thats exactly what happened.

so on to game 2:
out go 2 goyf and 2 lavamancer and 1 chain lighting.he is playing with relic of progenitus so im thinking goyf and lavamancer will not be as effective.

and in come 3 null rod and 2 pyroclasm.

i play turn 2 null rod.it slows him down a lot!

he plays 2 early magus to shut out my dual lands.

i sit there with a handful of cards i cant cast due to magus.

he casts imperial recruiter getting painters servant naming blue. he blasts my null rod, uses his chrome moxes to cast more bad stuff . i dont see any burn.
he beats me with 2 magus ,the servant, and recruiter.

on to game 3

i drop turn 1 nactl .
he drops a mountain.

turn 2 i drop null rod ,beat with nacatl,

he has no answer for the null rod and cannot accel with chrome moxes.
so he drops a land, simian spirit guide and plays magus.

i have burn ready this time and bolt magus EOT.

he gets a servant in play and calls blue and i think he has blasts in hand.
i also think he has grindstone but with null rod in play i am not worried about the grindstone.
i have krosan grip and hit the servant with it.

a few turns later i drop thoctar and goyf and they go the distance.

i win WOOHOO!

so after 3 rounds i am 2 wins and 1 loss hoping to make top 4 but with
4 losses,other players hold better tiebreakers and i do not make top 4.

all in all i am very pleased with the way the deck plays. so much fun to play with. after today i am thinking of tweaking my list.

i would like to work pridemage into the deck by dropping grips or another creature.

and the anti synergy with goyf and lavamancer does bother me.there were times i would not use lavamancer cause it would shrink goyf.i may try cursed scroll. dont know yet.i also did not like the moon effects messing up my dual lands.

null rod out of the sideboard was MVP card.it really helped me in my last 2 matches.i am thinking of running it main deck.

also not sure if i should maindeck vs combo.teeg? canonist?

looking forward to all comments and suggestions

thanks.

[Citrus-God]

If you want a maindeck answer to Counterbalance, I suggest you look into Vexing Shusher.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@joey223: I would just cut Krosan Grip all together for the Pridemage. He is that good no joke. He helps win goyf wars too. Plus you might not get to 3 mana to cast Grip anyway ya know?

I would suggest cutting Grip, Lavamancer down to a 3of, and then Thoctar down to a 2 of, which leaves 7 spots.

Me and Whienot have been using Null Rod for a few months now and it's just amazing. That combined with Pridemage = win.

But anywho i would replace the Grips with Pridemages, and with the other three open slots i would suggest Teeg, Jitte, Scroll perhaps. A 4of Thoctar is just too crazy to cast sometimes.


Edit:Thoctar is about to get the axe in my build. I'll tell ya my final feelings on him in a few days.

[joey223]

@Citrus-God:
ya susher is in my board and if CB gets out of hand in my meta he will move to the main.susher is amazing.

@Loxodon Baileyarch:
honestly,i have never had a problem getting 3 mana for thoctar.but i am running 20 mana sources.that could be why.:tongue:

and you say you have been using null rod maindeck?i will test for sure.and i think i will be using pridemage main as well.i have been thinking about that instead of grip but i like the split second of grip so much its just so final ya know? no top tricks in response! love it!
but pridemage is dam good.

Jitte and cursed Scroll.i have considered them but i am trying to avoid artifacts with activations if i am using null rod maindeck.but they are not out of the question yet.

if we remove thoctar ,are we hurting the deck?is it still RGW zoo?
i have run this deck without goyf and with thoctar as the biggest creature and it still works. i personally love thoctar. it doesnt care whats in the graveyard and is always a 5-4 creature for 3 mana.
and on the other hand it requires RGW to cast and that can be a problem.they can 1 color screw you ruining your day.they can chump block with any little token or crappy critter.

i would like to know your thoughts on thoctar and what would you replace him with if at all?

if you have a decklist please share with explanations.
this deck is a blast to play.

thanks and zoo on!

[from Cairo]

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Watchwolf
1x Jitte
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
2x Reckless Charge

20x same lands as before.


I've been testing a pretty similar list...

-3 Watchwolf
-2 Reckless Charge
-1 Canonist
-1 Jitte

+4 Magma Jet
+3 Null Rod

w/ Canonists and Jittes in the board. Along with Crypts, Grudges/Grips, and Voc Fallouts.

I've been pretty happy with it. Jets help a bit with the Teegs/Rods and highish land count since they are niche cards and mediocre-bad in multiples (or alternatively digs a bit to find them when you don't have one), and mid-late game land can be rugged when you need gas.

[joey223]

well i am running chain lightning and while i like it i am thinking about replacing it with something else and magma jet looks good.

if i were to switch to path to exile i would try to work wasteland into the deck just to offset the land they get to fetch.

so for now its STP.

the more i am thinking about it the more i want to put null rod in the main.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Magma Jet is terrible in this deck. Straight up bad. You don't need the Scry effect at all. Plus 2 damage for 2 mana is terrible.

I don't see why i would ever put that card into the deck.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I top 8ed with Pridemage Zoo tonight. I'll write a report when i wake up in the morning. I just want to say that i hate SDT. It's just like, hey let's always have 3 cards added to any cards in your hand. Stupid Stupid Stupid. I don't want to start anything like what happened with the Tarmogoyf banning debate, but damnit that card is too good.

[joey223]

well congrats loxodon.

we would love to see your decklist

and if you could give us your feelings on thoctar.

thanks

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
3x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

I had a problem of drawing at least 6 or so land every game, even though i had good games. I played against Waste once and usually i would be scared, but drawing lands is ok...

Thoctar is essentially Goyf's number 5 and 6. You usually don't draw them in multiples, and when you do, whatever ya know? Swords is getting the axe completely. Swording Goyfs is annoying when i could just bash through for the fucking win. I had that problem multiple times last night.

I'll post the report when i get home tonight, i gotta do work son. Also, i got 2 foil Pridemages :cool:

[Tacosnape]

Swords is getting the axe completely. Swording Goyfs is annoying when i could just bash through for the fucking win. I had that problem multiple times last night.

I kind of agree with this. This is probably the only deck where I ever like white but not Swords, but here it is. I'm not a huge fan of Path to Exile here either, as giving them the land gives them a better chance to stabilize.

Strangely I like Zoo, short of the sideboard, to involve threats and burn, period. For the record, this is what I run:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
3 Plateau
4 Taiga

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
2 Fireblast
1 Cursed Scroll

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
3 Undetermined Slots (Price, Relic, wtfever)

[B is for Big Job]

You must not have a problem with any wastelocks / pops or any other NB hate with not running any basics, how does that work out for you?

Ive been testing black for awhile now and it has been pretty good. Tombstalker is a beast. I took out swords and got terminate which while slower works out so much better. No extra life gain for them ftw. Also i was thinking about putting snuffout instead or in addition to for extra removal but it might be overkill

[umbowta]

Swords is getting the axe completely. Swording Goyfs is annoying when i could just bash through for the fucking win. I had that problem multiple times last night.

Finally your seeing the light. And to think, all I had to do was stfu and let you see for yourself. More ROAR! Chain Lightning FTMFW.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@umbowta: Yeah i guess you're right. I still don't like Chain though. I'd rather run like Incinerate or something instant speed though. Nice ROAR though :cool:

@B is for Big Job: Goyf Sligh is played in my meta on random occasions, along with mana denial plans, and my matchup with Goyf Sligh is already amazing and a Wasteland is ... well i Wasteland. It's all good for me. Please no discussion on the color black. RGW. Sorry to be a dick.

@Tacosnape: I just can't bring myself to run Magma Jet in the deck. Incinerate seems ok though. I'd maximize Pridemages though, they are just great. Also maybe just cut the 1of Cursed Scroll for another land. I would say a basic but your mana base looks all in so maybe another Fetch or Savannah.

Ok so now on to my tourney report.

Round 1 i play against GB Survival Natural Order(Pulp_Fiction)
He gets land screwed but Wall of Roots keeps me off damage long enough for him to get down double Kitchen Finks. All the while he is 3 for 1ing me with Cabal Therapy. Game 2 he gets triple Kitchen Finks. Take a guess at how i do.

Round 2 i get paired against MUC with Polymorph Progenitus.
I play Ape, Pridemage, and he taps out for Standstill??? I rape him as he was probably expecting with that kind of play error. Game 2 i just do what Zoo does. I Needle Shackles as well. He gets down Countertop but i play Helix and he can't find a 2drop after he fetches 3 times.

Round 3 i get paired against Standard Bant Aggro.
Kill myself. I rape him, but he does pull off turn one Noble Hierarch, turn two, Rhox War Monk, turn three Rafiq, gains a bunch of life, then i draw removal and win. Game 2 is just a slaughter because he runs Treetop Villages.

Round 4 i get paired up against Elf Glimpse Staff.
I figure i have to race him and kill his lords/Titanian Priests. I do just that game one and he has to chump with his mana guys to survive. Game two i get Jitte going.

Round five i get paired up against BW Confidant with Sculler, Volrath's Stronghold.
Game one we both go into top deck mode quickly. Thoctar ends this quickly. Game two he gets Sculler, Volrath's. So i have to Swords his Sculler, and draw Thoctar + Jitte. I would also like to note i bolted his ninjutsu-ed Throat Slitter and killed a Spectral Lynx with Jitte. Woot!

Top 8 i play against Eva Dead guy with top.
Game one i had a big fuck up. He Thoughtseized, picked STP, put it in the yard, and then wanted to take it back, me being the nice guy i am get him take it back and get my Goyf. Then he 4 for 1s with me with Goyf after he discarded my Swords. I was pissed but whatever. He gets 3 Goyfs, 2 Hippies, and 2 Tombstalkers each game. I have 3/3s and 2/3s. The reason why i bitch about SDT is because he pretty much had a fucking 4 card hand at all times with that card. It's dumb. Dumb CA artifact...

[Pulp_Fiction]

Good work on Top 8! After the first 3 rounds i was 2-1 and the damn Survival deck was just fucking with me. Mana problems all night and I just kept drawing useless shit (true to Survival's nature). All those cards are going on eBay tonight, not playing that shit again!

IMOP Magma Jet is terrible in the deck. It does to little damage for to much mana and the scry effect is not good enough to merit its inclusion. If your deck looks more like Goyf Sligh then play Magma Jet, but if you run more than 20 creatures ... don't play MJ.

Top is fucking annoying, I have wanted to play Null Rod in the main but its not worth it. Removing Scroll and Jitte are not options, those cards win to many games.

Still not sold on PtE over Swords and here is why: before damage Swords Lackey, then get mountain, drop Warchief pass turn. I play Watchwolf/Goyf or something. They drop Matron and at least 1 Piledriver .... this is scary, Goblins easily has the upper hand. PtE will make the Goblins matchup better for Goblins and that scares me. Also, I have won a few games based on StP on my own creature (usually Goyf) for a little extra life with the win on the board. That mana you give them can really work to your disadvantage whereas the life given to them VIA StP can be taken away very fast!

Also, Zoo is a DTB!!!! YEAH!!!!

[badjuju]

Grats on DTB.

Check out this list also by SPOD --

1. Stefan Czolk ([SPOD] Sick Burn)

Main:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

Board:

4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Stephen Czolk won a small German tournament with this. What do you guys think?
Also...I guess this deck is technically more "Goyf Sligh". However, it seems like as time goes, the two archetypes are coming together slowly.

[Valtrix]

I don't see why Swords and path have to be exclusive. I've been running both, and have been very happy with that. However, I'm also running 3/3 for 6 total. Why? Well, with how many large creatures in the format (IE, goyf), I think that it's so important to have a lot of answers to them, especailly against decks like threshold who are going to want to counter your removal. There's already plenty of the burn in the deck, and I think that it makes perfect sense to replace the "more questionable" (i.e., the slots that it seems many people keep arguing about) burn slot with more straight removal. I don't see why we should have to run less efficient burn when we could have more efficient creature removal.

[ScatmanX]

@B is for Big Job: Goyf Sligh is played in my meta on random occasions, along with mana denial plans, and my matchup with Goyf Sligh is already amazing and a Wasteland is ... well i Wasteland. It's all good for me. Please no discussion on the color black. RGW. Sorry to be a dick.


The Thread kind of changed name now...

About Stefan Czolk´s list, only the 4 Wild Nacatl, 4 Qasali Pridemage make it be zoo. He even runs Chain Lightning and no Helix. The deck iss called Sick Burn, guess it doesen´t belong here.

[gamegeek2]

As this is now just Zoo, I assume it includes 4 and 5-color lists as well.

[from Cairo]

IMOP Magma Jet is terrible in the deck. It does to little damage for to much mana and the scry effect is not good enough to merit its inclusion. If your deck looks more like Goyf Sligh then play Magma Jet, but if you run more than 20 creatures ... don't play MJ.
I've really liked it in testing, as posted above, it's helpful in the builds using 3-of utility spells (Null Rod, Teeg, Lavamancer), as the Scry can be digging for something that can be back breaking vs certain strategies. There aren't that many creatures seeing play with an ass of 3, so things like Chain Lightning or Incinerate don't stand out to me as doing a whole lot more vs Creatures, clearly at the dome they are superior dmg:mana.


Top is fucking annoying, I have wanted to play Null Rod in the main but its not worth it. Removing Scroll and Jitte are not options, those cards win to many games.
I think it probably depends on the meta, if one plays against alot of agro, I could see Jitte being better main, if there's alot of CB/T, Combo, or U w/ Vedaken Shackles I think Null Rod is superior main. Either way it probably makes sense to have 2-3 of each, one in the main the other in the SB, as they mostly shine in for 2 different match ups.


Still not sold on PtE over Swords and here is why: before damage Swords Lackey, then get mountain, drop Warchief pass turn. I play Watchwolf/Goyf or something. They drop Matron and at least 1 Piledriver .... this is scary, Goblins easily has the upper hand. PtE will make the Goblins matchup better for Goblins and that scares me. Also, I have won a few games based on StP on my own creature (usually Goyf) for a little extra life with the win on the board. That mana you give them can really work to your disadvantage whereas the life given to them VIA StP can be taken away very fast!
The Basic comes into play tapped so assuming T1: Land Lackey, T2: Land, Swing, Path, they have 2 untapped Land and 1 Tapped Mountain. They can't cast Warchief. I think Goblins is probably the match up PTE is worst against cause it's one of the matches where if they're hitting their land drops, they're getting closer to all their CA Goblins which is where the match up heads down hill. I'd side them out for Volcanic Fallouts.


Also, Zoo is a DTB!!!! YEAH!!!!
QFT.

[Guevera59]

I agree with "from Cairo's" take on PtE. The only match-up in which the downside really truly is game breaking is Gobbos, and maybe Merfolk. Most other decks pack few/no basics and decks like Threshold only need 3 lands to operate, they will cantrip into land if they need it and giving them a basic will rarely accelerate them into a bomb. Decks like Landstill probably benefit greatly from a free land drop but wtf are you going to Path against Control? Factory<Burn.

[umbowta]

Grats on DTB.

Check out this list also by SPOD --

1. Stefan Czolk ([SPOD] Sick Burn)

Main:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

Board:

4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Stephen Czolk won a small German tournament with this. What do you guys think?
Also...I guess this deck is technically more "Goyf Sligh". However, it seems like as time goes, the two archetypes are coming together slowly.This list is totally sick...and it's very close to what I'm running at the moment. I would still consider this to be Zoo due to its' diversified, effcient creature base and burn package, however, this is a very burn heavy list. Just the way I like it.

One thing you should take notice of in this list is the 4x Mogg Fanatic while only 2x Kird Ape make the list. This can be justified in two ways: by the Fanatics' ability to remove Bridge from Below, and the fact that Fanatic gives you yet another way to win Goyf ground stalls. I say win when the fact is, if your opponent chooses to block, you'll have the chace to trade one for one; your Fanatic for their Goyf sounds pretty good to me.

The burn package is tight but I still don't like Magma Jet when the top of the deck is so efficient anyway. The only time I like jet is when I'm using it specifically to find answers via the scry mechanic. Most of the time however 2 damage for 2 mana makes me want to cry inside. I prefer Helix here, especially alongside PoP...and don't make me start the Lava Dart debate.

The only glaring fault I see is the exclusion of a singleton Savannah. With an opening grip of Nacatl, Mountain, Fetchland when you really want to lead with cat and maximize it's P/T the Savannah would be golden.

[spirit of the wretch]

Some comments about my list:
I don't know whether you'd call this deck Goyf Sligh, Zoo, or whatever and frankly I couldn't care less =)
This list is heavily influenced by card pool restraint. I played the deck the next day at the local Hassloch tourney (47 players) and finished third. Here's what I played (after I borrowed the cards I wanted to play):

[SPOD] Quick 'n Toast 'n Cookies

Main:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

Board:

2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
3 Sulfurous Vortex

This list is much better, but there are still some points I'd like to discuss:

How many lands to play? The manabase worked out fine for me, but I'm still not entirely sure if 19 is correct. A Savannah is probably missing in there.
The Kird Apes were pretty underwhelming compared to the powerlevel of Lavamancer and Nacatl, perhaps Figure of Destiny is better in that slot.
The Magma Jets. Perhaps I just sticked with them to keep a little library manipulation in the deck (numerous months of playing Grow tend to make you valuate library manipulation quite high). Helix might be better.
The Pillars in the SB just plain and simple suck! Any ideas of what could be a good replacement?
And just to mention the obvious: Pridemage and PoP are insanely powerful.

[klaus]

The Pillars in the SB just plain and simple suck! Any ideas of what could be a good replacement?


Just to go with the obvious: this is totally meta-dependant.
I'd say for meta that is not really combo infested and ~35 players: screw those comboMUs. Even if you packed 4 Gaddock Teegs, you're not likely to find those consistently (no Ponders, BSs, Tops :laugh: ).
You could always go with REBs (hey they help against combo, too:tongue: )

[spirit of the wretch]

Yeah, I abandonned the combo MU right away. You can't board in enough stuff to make that MU good, so you might as well screw it! The only game I lost that weekend was to combo (Cascade-Hypergenesis, if you believe it...) but that's ok. That's the trade off you make for not playing CounterTop =)
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, these two slots just might have been Homarid Warriors, in that they are just filler cards. Maybe I'll try Anarchy or something janky the next time =)

[TheCramp]

The Magma Jets. Perhaps I just sticked with them to keep a little library manipulation in the deck (numerous months of playing Grow tend to make you valuate library manipulation quite high). Helix might be better.

I have been running helix over jet, stubbornly, and I love what it does in the mirror. However, if you are to do that, I would go up to 20 or 21 land. (I play 21, but 3 wastes.) When you splash white and rock helix, and they splash black and dark confidant it's awsome. Their PoP are blanks, and yours are bombs. Makes up for the lack of CA.

I really like pridemage, and have yet to playtest it. I think I will have to lose the wastes if I do that however, as you seem to have adopted.

Edit: just saw the vortexes in your side, I do that as well. Its a 2/2 shroud haste unblockable sigma lasher for 1 more R most of the time. Aka, Badass.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I wake up and check the Source to see Zoo moved to the DTB section. Ahh the spoils of hard labor!

Yeah i was just wondering if this includes all 5 colors as well? Because i mean i think that RGW is clearly the best of all the color combinations. I see no need for black or blue at all, but hey i guess it's not my call.

Anywho, PTE against Goblins just doesn't worry me at all. You have such a good matchup anyway, and if you run Pyroclasm in the board or anything, then you can just overkill the little green men.

Combo is even more winnable with Pridemage, not much, but moreso. I've beaten a combo deck with just Lightning Helix. You can never assume they have the nuts hand, and the builds with Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, etc. they either have it or they have to find it, in which case you gotta play smart.

[The Wolf]

This may be too slow, but what about flame jab as a 1 of. I wouln't play more then 1 as they are so bad in multiples.

Good:
Turns lands in your hand into lavamancer damage
Turns lands past 2-3 into 1 point of damage.
Kills Bobs all day as well as random other 1
You can force a CB player to put 1cc spell on top of their library due to threat of lands in hand, and then throw 2cc stuff at them.

Bad:
A spell that just hits in the face may be better or worth more damage.

[ScatmanX]

spirit of the wretch ,
I see you've taken out the Mogg Fanatics. There are simply no Ichorid's in there, or you don't care about the MU?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@The Wolf: Flame Jab seems not consistent as a 1of, and even as a 4of it would still be as terrible.

[from Cairo]

Yeah, I abandonned the combo MU right away. You can't board in enough stuff to make that MU good, so you might as well screw it! The only game I lost that weekend was to combo (Cascade-Hypergenesis, if you believe it...) but that's ok. That's the trade off you make for not playing CounterTop =)

With Null Rod, Teeg and Canonists you can have a ton of speed bumps for them. I don't think it's unwinnable, T1 Nacatl/Ape, T2 hate piece, T3-4 2nd hate piece, and they're probably out of the game. Depending on their hand Null Rod can be a complete blow out, and Canonist always ties up a turn+ to eliminate; Teeg is the weakest hate piece against combo but it still shuts off Tendrils, Ad Nauseam (in addition to FoW, Humility, Elspeth, etc). Considering PTEs/STPs are completely dead in the match up anyway, it makes sense to have 3-4 SB options against Combo, even if its just something like Teeg that's generically helpful.

My current SB is:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
2/3 Umezawa's Jitte
2/3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip

[spirit of the wretch]

spirit of the wretch ,
I see you've taken out the Mogg Fanatics. There are simply no Ichorid's in there, or you don't care about the MU?

I pretty much don't care. There isn't much Ichorid in my meta and if there is, it almost never shows up at the top tables (where I'm obviously aiming to get). Lavamancer are a reasonable replacement for Fanatics in that MU and just plain superior in most others so I decide that this trade off is worth it.

[joey223]

quote:
With Null Rod, Teeg and Canonists you can have a ton of speed bumps for them. I don't think it's unwinnable, T1 Nacatl/Ape, T2 hate piece, T3-4 2nd hate piece, and they're probably out of the game. Depending on their hand Null Rod can be a complete blow out, and Canonist always ties up a turn+ to eliminate; Teeg is the weakest hate piece against combo but it still shuts off Tendrils, Ad Nauseam (in addition to FoW, Humility, Elspeth, etc). Considering PTEs/STPs are completely dead in the match up anyway, it makes sense to have 3-4 SB options against Combo, even if its just something like Teeg that's generically helpful.

i agree with that statement.why just give it away when you can side in something and give yourself a chance.with maindeck null rod it gives you a chance game 1.

anyhoo i just took 1st place with RGW zoo at my local tourney.
i took this decklist:

land:
3 plateau
3 savannah
3 taiga
4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain

creatures:
4 wild nactl
4 goyf
4 thoctar
3 grim lavamancer
3 kird ape
3 quasili pridemage

utility:
4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 STP
3 null rod

sideboard:
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 vexing shusher
3 relic of progenitus
3 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm


1st opponent: ANT. not again! ugh..2nd week in a row.

game 1:

nothing out of the ordinary.i drop creature,he drops land.i beat with a creature for a few turns,he drops land and combos off. on to game 2.
i side out STP and in come 4 pyrostatic pillar.i now have 7 cards to help me with this matchup but i see none both games.

game 2:

see game 1.ouch!!

0-1

2nd opponent: U-W weenie birds with library manipulation & other tricks.

game 1 :
i keep a hand with taiga, savannah,thoctar, wild cat & burn spells.
1st turn i drop wild cat ,she drops bird.
turn 2 i drop savannah ,burn her bird ,swing for 3.she drops land, a bird ,looks at the top 4 cards,arranges them and ends turn.
i draw then drop land ,swing with wildcat drop thoctar .she drops a bird.
a few turns later thoctar hits big,i burn some birds ,she chump blocks with some birds,thoctar and wildcat win it.

game 2:
i keep a hand with goyf and mancer and kird ape.
this game goes a lot like game 2.mancer kills some birds and goyf and ape go the distance.

1-1

opp.3 enchantress.

game 1:

i get out early creatures . he takes some damage but gets an elephant grass in play and keeps the upkeep going.that slows me down a LOT! he plays a lot of enchantments ,draws a lot of cards,makes a lot of empty throne tokens and kills me.

i side out 3 null rod and 1 STP and in come 4 pyro pillars.

game 2:
i drop an early creature,beat with it then drop a pillar.his deck does not like this card.he casts some cards but takes too much pillar damage along with creature and burn spells .a few turns later i win.

game 3:
he thinks for a while but keeps.i also keep a hand with 2 pillars.by turn 3 i have both pillars in play .that REALLY hurts and just like game 1 pillar ,creature,and burn damage FTW.

at this point i am 2-1 with 3 losses and i dont know if its good enuff.

top 4 pairings.IM IN !! woohoo!

so i get paired up with painters servant.

game 1:
he drops early chrome mox and grindstone.i drop ape and beat with it a few times.he gets magus of the moon out and shuts off all my dual lands.i hate when that happens!:mad:
a few turns later i burn the magus,drop thoctar.
he tutors for servant,casts it and then REB on my thoctar:frown:
so at this point if i do not get rid of servant,he will activate grindstone next turn.
i burn the servant cast another thoctar and creature beats win game 1.that was a close game!

game 2:
he gets an early servant out but never sees a grindstone.i drop goyf,wild cat,burn some of his blocking creatures and like game 1 creature beats win game 2.

i make top 2!

so im waiting for the other 2 players to finish.its ANT vs.vial wizards.needless to say i hope wizards win......

ANT wins 2-0.

i actually think about conceding but i go ahead and rematch with ANT

game 1:
i drop early wild cat and thoctar and beat with them until he is at 6 life.he tries to go off next turn but makes a mistake but still manages get 14 ETW tokens! double ouch!
we draw go for a couple of turns when i draw helix and cast it. he is down to 3 life.i draw my next card and its a chain lightning.i win game 1.

game 2:
turns 1 and 2 he drops land but he cant seem to go off.turn 2 i drop null rod.turn 3 i drop thoctar.
he says draw go for the next few turns, my creature sticks and beats for the win!

1st place!

he shows me his hand after the game and i see 2 lotus petal and a chrome mox! null rod did have a big effect on this matchup.

but i cant help but wonder if he does not fudge game 1 how different it would have been.

but all in all i am very happy with the win and happy how the deck performed.
i was encouraged to play it a second time because i did well last week with it going 2-1 but not making top 4 because of tiebreakers.

i am glad i did.

i think i could have sided differently or had other cards.
what do you all think?

comments are welcome.

and thanks.

[Nessaja]

Two days ago Rob Tuinte won a 40 man tournament with this list:

4 wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
4 dark confidant
3 grim lavamancer
3 qasali pridemage
2 jotun grunt
4 tribal flames
4 chain lightning
4 vindicate
4 lightning bolt
3 bloodstained mire
3 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
2 taiga
2 plateau
1 bayou
1 volcanic island
1 savannah
1 badlands
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 plains
1forest

SB

4 krosan rip
4 orim''s chant
4 tormod''s crypt
3 pyroclasm

The meta breakdown was:
Zoo 4
Dreadstill 4
Merfolk 3
R Goblins 3
UWb Landstill 3
4C Thresh 2
Agroloam 2
Eva Green 2
Wit Weenies 1
UW Landstill 1
Ichorid 3
UG Thresh
Canadian Thresh 1
Quinn 1
Dutch Staxx 1
Enchantress 1
UWG Thresh 1
ANT 1
Sui 1
GBW Goodstuff 1
Rock 1
Ghostway 1
Wild Zombie Madness 1

I was surrised at Zoo's power against the decks in the meta, with a big thanks to the Qasali Pridemage the deck got a lot more powerful. Nothing you guys don't already know, more a revelation for me. The Zoo decks peformed a lot better then Goblins on this tourney.

[Mayk0l]

I beat Rob Tuinte with UG Thresh in the first round of the tournament 2-0, but went on to lose to the same Rob Tuinte in the semifinals 0-2. The deck plays neatly and can create a lot of pressure. Pridemage was a pain. Rob was a cool guy, he deserved to win the tournament. I faced three Zoo decks that day, beat two 2-0 too.

When the manabase rolls as you want it to, the deck is pretty powerful!
I'd suggest everyone try Pridemage, it wins the Goyf showdown and it destroys CB; just drop it before the opponent drops CB. It's pretty impressive :)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@joey223: I really like your list, minus two little changes changes. I wouldn't run 4 Thoctar, and i'd maximize the Pridemage, he's just too damned good not too. So i'd go, -1 Thoctar, +1 Pridemage.

Also you mana base is kinda weird. Did you opt to go with Bloodstained Mire over Windswept Heath because you didn't have any? They fetch your on color basics and are the land for the deck, and At least run a 4of Wooded Foothill:tongue:

And what do you think about Path to Exile over STP?? I just think it's better at RFG-ing critters.

[joey223]

thanks lox

i have been thinking about dropping 1 thoctar for 1 pridemage.but with 3 null rod in the main deck i think i am OK.there is 2 enchantments we fear. they would be counterbalance and blood moon.if they get out of hand in my meta i will for sure go to 4 pridemage.i love the thoctar .im never sad to see it.

i am using all the fetches i own.still trying get those last few elusive cards.

and the STP or PTE debate,i am on the side of STP.simply because i do not like to give my opponent mana to use against me if i can help it.whereas if he gains a little life i feel the critters and burn will take that life and then some right back. but i could be way off base with this for i have not tried PTE.but if i did run it i would feel the need to squeeze wasteland into the deck just to offset PTE.wasteland is almost never a dead card in this format anyway.

and to address the rob tuinte list ,it looks good but i cant see myself going to 4 colors.in fact i was actually looking to see if i could go to 2 colors with my list.still kicking it around.

[magicmoron]

@umbowta: I know you love you some mono G stompy! Me too. Have you ever tried out berserk in this deck. I have been trying it out up a Get Your Game On and have been doing well with it. It can allow you to goldfish turn 3 with no disruption which can help against some of the problematic game 1 combo match ups and race the cb/t set up. Let me know what you think!

[umbowta]

@umbowta: I know you love you some mono G stompy! Me too. Have you ever tried out berserk in this deck. I have been trying it out up a Get Your Game On and have been doing well with it. It can allow you to goldfish turn 3 with no disruption which can help against some of the problematic game 1 combo match ups and race the cb/t set up. Let me know what you think!

Yes, I have a list I'm working on now. I'm tending to call it "Boston Garden" The garden part of it comes from the Zoo-ish creatures that tend to grow, and Boston because it's wicked fast. I've already had 3 second turn kills with it. PM me for sure.

[zulander]

Have you guys seen this list? It came in 3rd at the NoVA DLD. What do you guys think? I like the list, but I'd make the following changes:
-1 Canopy +1 Taiga, -1 Fireblast +1 Grim Lavamancer. I'm also a fan of Swords but I'll test out Path to Exile.

Also the exclusion of helix is because price of progress usually deals 6-8 damage to their face. I would personally prefer testing helix over pop though.




Beats: 22
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wooly Thoctar

Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library

Burn/Creature Removal: 16
3 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

Mana: 20
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga 2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard: 15
1 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Pyroclasm
4 Krosan Grip

[B is for Big Job]

sylvan library is sooooo good in this deck. being able to set your draws and gain some card advantage having the higher life total. also with the amount of fetches we play, can get rid of the garbage and help rip a win.

another thought, since goyf sligh is starting to run white, should it be considered zoo? the lists are starting to become more the same; hybrid if you will. rumming practically the same cards with a few card differences

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I split top 4 in my weekly tourney at SuperGames. 29 people attended.

Here is my list, Zoo 2point0:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
3x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
3x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

So i essentially went -4STP, -2 Cursed Scroll, for 3 Chain Lightning and 3 PTE.

Round one i get paired up against Counterslivers.
Game one we go into a quick damage race, and i win. Nothing special just some STPs from him and some Chains from me. Game two he gets 3 Counterspells plus Daze for my relevant stuff and i lose. Game three i get Jitte up to 12 counters, yes 12, but he has Crystalline Sliver and has to chump alot.
Win 2-1

Round two i get paired against Eva Green/GB Rock.
Game one i land a bunch of 3/3s and kill his two threats with burn/PTE. Game two he gets Volrath's Stronghold plus Nxythalid so he basically forcing me to lose a creature a turn to kill him, but i overcome anyway. Note he Maelstrom Pulses and gets 2 Pridemages.
Win 2-0

Round three i get paired against Dragon Stompy.
Game one i lose on the second turn to Chalice at 1 and 2. I have 2 playable cards in my deck at that point. Game two he plays Chalice and Magus, i Bolt Magus and Ancient Grudge his Powder Keg and his Chalice, then drop a 5/6 Goyf. Game three it takes me a while and he can't get another red source as i pummel him with Jitte-ed dudes.
Win 2-1

Round four i draw in.

Top 8 i get paired against BW Confidant with maindeck Spectral Lynx.
Game one he plays crappy 2/2s and is forced to chump so he can stay alive, then i PTE his Tombstalker and it's over. Game two he gets more crappy 2/2s and i draw 3 Nacatl, 2 Pridemage, 2 Ape plus burn. IT'S OVER!
Win 2-0

Anywho, i won some money and got some foil Watchwolf-s and some Foreign Beta Lightning Bolts. My deck is being pimped.

I REALLY REALLY like this build a WHOLE lot better. PTE is just better and noone can convince me otherwise. If i was in a meta of Gobs and Folk i would care, a little. It won me so many games just straight up, and i'm serious, like 3 or 4 it's first night in testing.

Ok people, Watchwolf is GOOD i promise. I haven't seen anyone else run him like ever. He will always be straight up beef and never lose P/T from a Wasteland. I don't see how he isn't run more. Sure, make the Goyf argument, but he fits the deck perfectly. Also, Jitte and Ancient Grudge are fucking hosses.

[keys]

Nice finish! What was your sideboard like? Looks like you played a lot of aggro so the Jittes were good, but if you think you're going to encounter more control/combo, I'd try out Null Rod in its place. It's insane versus CounterTop (Top, Explosives, Shackles), Stompy (equipment, Chrome Mox), useful versus Tribal (Vial), and can really put the hurt on combo together with Teeg. You should try 3 Null Rod and 2 Teeg in place of Watchwolf and Jitte and see how that goes. I really think it'll be stronger than the vanilla 3/3s you have which I agree are still good, but easy to play around.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@keys: My sideboard was as follows,

4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Gaddock Teeg

Yeah i know about the NullRod tech, me and Whienot have been trying it for a while, i just don't think it's necessary for my build, and plus he runs Goyf Sligh and doesn't use the Pridemage. And i love Watchwolf, and my list all together. It's running a whole lot smoother and i really can't see making any changes until my meta changes.

I would, however like to tweak my sideboard. I think i'm gonna sacrifice the combo matchup all together and remove Teeg from the board. Doesn't seem too good as a 2of. Pithing Needle is too useful, and i love Ancient Grudge because sometimes Pridemage isn't enough. It won me the game singlehandedly against DragonStompy.

[Guevera59]

@ Loxodon and the other Zoo vets.

What do you think about Price of Progress? It is an instant bomb against most decks, netting 6-8 damage. I can see it as replacing the Chain Lightning's in Loxodon's list. 4 Bolts/Helix's seem like plenty in terms of spot removal and Helix/Jitte can offset the life loss. Has anyone tested this?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ Loxodon and the other Zoo vets.

What do you think about Price of Progress? It is an instant bomb against most decks, netting 6-8 damage. I can see it as replacing the Chain Lightning's in Loxodon's list. 4 Bolts/Helix's seem like plenty in terms of spot removal and Helix/Jitte can offset the life loss. Has anyone tested this?

I really don't like PoP in this deck. I don't see the point in big finishers like Fireblast and PoP when your creatures are so efficient anyway. Plus, i tend to hit at least 5 lands on average unless my deck curves like a champ, and i don't like taking 10.

Like i think it's a REALLY good card, just not in a 3 color deck. I don't think i'd even test it with RGW at all. It's too much of a gamble. It belongs in Goyf Sligh.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Good job man, bad luck continues to fucking plague me every week and it blows ass.

Please don't start another discussion on PoP, NUMEROUS FUCKING TIMES HAS THIS SHIT BEEN DISCUSSED! You think PoP is good ... play it. Please read through the thread before asking questions.

[Guevera59]

@ Loxodon

I rarely hit so many lands, and I essentially play the same list as yourself. I feel as if Zoo will always be on top in terms of a damage race, so, the Price will just about always deal lethal to the opponent, or at least put him in range of Goyfs/Thoctars. Who cares if you're at 2-5 life when you've won the game? I don't necessarily think that the deck needs a finisher, as it is already insanely aggressive, but I do feel that it is a more efficient burn spell than Chain Lightning. I don't think the damage dealt to yourself is a legitimate argument as addressed by a) you will almost always be on top in terms of life and b) you have Helix and Jitte to gain it back. Price can punch through those last 4-6 points of damage that no other burn spell, besides Fireblast, can do.

I do agree that Fireblast does not have a place in the deck as it is balls to the wall and a single counterspell ruins the day. Another point is that Price is a must counter. If they don't have the counter back-up, they lose the game, if they do, it clears the way for permanent threats such as Thoctar.

@ Pulpfiction

I am trying to further the discussion of the deck. What else should we discuss? I feel as if the list is pretty solid except for the last 3-4 slots. I think we have the creature base down and now we need to find the best Burn-suite/removal package. I have read this entire thread and I feel as if Price deserves more than what it has gotten. It is too powerful of a card to not even consider testing.

[FoulQ]

I agree with Pulp that this is getting rather tiring, but thanks to cards like Wild Nacatl the line is very blurry between Zoo and Goyf Sligh, so you can't really blame people. I think R/G/W Zoo needs to be better defined such as the tunnel vision in the burn thread towards sligh decks: otherwise progress will never be made. Guevera, if you really want to fill the last couple spots, play something that helps the bad matchups (null rod, teeg, etc). I'm no expert on Zoo but it seems pretty obvious that PoP is terribly conditional when the deck runs 3 basic lands. Coming from the goblins thread, my combo philosophy is pretty simple: if you wanna t8/t4, ditch the combo hate. If you wanna win, you'll probably need it.

[zulander]

In a metagame consisting of decks like merfolk/goblins/eva green PoP is gonna suck. I personally like helix over it just because it helps recoup life loss taken from cards like sylvan library, but as mentioned if you like it play it, if not play another card (same for grim lavamancers).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ Loxodon

I rarely hit so many lands, and I essentially play the same list as yourself. I feel as if Zoo will always be on top in terms of a damage race, so, the Price will just about always deal lethal to the opponent, or at least put him in range of Goyfs/Thoctars. Who cares if you're at 2-5 life when you've won the game? I don't necessarily think that the deck needs a finisher, as it is already insanely aggressive, but I do feel that it is a more efficient burn spell than Chain Lightning. I don't think the damage dealt to yourself is a legitimate argument as addressed by a) you will almost always be on top in terms of life and b) you have Helix and Jitte to gain it back. Price can punch through those last 4-6 points of damage that no other burn spell, besides Fireblast, can do..

I personally think that Chain Lightning is better because it can remove critters. I don't see the necessity of PoP, and it's even dead in some matchups. I understand your argument, but i just don't see the need for PoP when we have Bolt, Helix, and Chain. They do the job just fine in my book.

[zulander]

I also play grim lavamancer, so even then I don't see the need when there's so much redundancy of burn.

Quick question though, has anyone thought of shusher in the main or board? My board is pretty wild right now and I need to make it more focused.

Here's the list I'm currently running, and I'd appreciate some advice:

Mana: 20
4 Foothills
4 Heath
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 23
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Woolly Thoctar
4 Qsali Pridemage

Burn/Removal: 15
4 Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile

Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library

The deck plays great, but sometimes I feel like I'm running one too many lavamancers, not sure if I want to put the 4th thoctar in or the 3rd library or another burn/pte. As for the board I'm leaning to playing 4 grip, 4 shusher, 4 crypt 3 pyroblast, but that doesn't exactly help the combo matchup. I like pyrostatic pillar a lot, not sure if there's a lot of combo though due to all of the blue cb+top decks. I think shusher is definitely an include to come in.

What do you guys think?

[Jaynel]

No Pridemage? Seems like you're doing it wrong.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@zulander: Holy Jesus run Pridemage. Also, Horizon Canopy as a 2of!? You run Nacatl and Ape. Cut em for more duals or more fetches whichever you prefer to get you the right mana. I would also cut your random Fireblasts too. Casting that on your mana base seems, not too consistent or good.

I believe Shusher maindeck is only good if you're meta is like 80% blue, and even then it's iffy. He is just a bear in alot of matchups except one.

I am starting to like Pyrostatic Pillar a whole lot more though. Makes people afraid to cast spells and can just shut down Enchantress, and Combo.

Edit: Go down to 3 Lavamancers if you're gonna run em.

[zulander]

No Pridemage? Seems like you're doing it wrong.

I'm an idiot, I definitely have 4 pridemage in the main. Also canopy is awesome so far, hasn't really had a negative impact just yet.

[Yui]

hiya,

not sure if this is the right topic. But here it goes.

I played 5c zoo at a 22 man tournament. Lost in the top4 against a homebrew deck(mix itf/Thresh with Lorescale coatle).

the list i played;
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird ape
4x Dark confidant
3x Grim lavamancer
2x Trygon predator

4x Tribal Flames
4x Lightning bolt
4x Path to exile
4x Vindicate
2x Diabolic edict

1x Volcanic island
2x Taiga
1x Tropical island
1x Savanah
1x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Plateau
1x Scrubland
4x Wooded foothills
4x Windswept heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded strand

sideboard;
3x Jitte
3x Teeg
2x Grip
2x Crypt
2x peedle
3x Winter orb(didn't know what else and it looked OK)(never used it)


the tournament'

round 1; Agro loam.
game one; i won the roll. Dropped turn 1 nacatl turn 2 swing for 3, Confidant came and join him. He played Chalice 1 vindicate and there was no way he could stop it.
Game 2, kird ape followed with a goyf and allot of other friends, he played Dreams cleaned up the board. He wished for a Worm Harvest and won.
game 3, he couldn't find his cards, to many critters so i won

1-0

Round 2 Muc
game 1, the judge asked for my deck. I forgot to write down 4 lightning bolts so a loss.
game 2, he has Powder keg, followed with shackels and a shitload of counters so good game.

1-1

Round 3 goblins
game 1, i race him to death, bolt, path, edict and vindicate ftw.
game 2, he goes insane with a ringleader party. I have nothing
game 3, he doesn't stand a chance.

2-1

round 4 Ugr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh I
I didn't know how this matchup would be. My fetches don't like stiffle and my non-basic don't like wasteland.
Game 1; I get my critters, he played 3 goyf's, 2 get a path on theire head and the other one a tribal flames. Me off for the win.
Game 2; He steals a creature, played a 2 nimble mongooses. I play my little friend BOB and draw insane, hit him with 3 tribal flames followed with an attack and win.

3 -1

Round 5 Merfolk
game 1; he has nothing, everything he played i could kill
game 2; Same as the match above.

4-1

round 6 ANT
I knew he played Ant. Thats a match-up i don't like. He asked to draw that was fine by me.

4-1-1

I got in the t4,

t4 homebrew mix itf/Thresh + lorescale coatle
game 1; kept a hand with 2 critters and a vindicate. Everything gets a counter. He played counterbalance I find a vindicate but to late. His etched oracle smacked to hard.
game 2; me goes insane. in the end he found a counterbalance with top. I burn him he fetched. He hits the 1 lifepoint. I bolt he Fow i win.
Game 3; He goes insane with top i go insane with lands and nothing else. he wins



I wanted to play Yixlid Jailer instead of crypts or atleast a mix. The jailer swings for 2 and has a great ability.
Everybody will say play pridemage. I don't like him. He gets hit by counterbalance way to easy. Trygon doesn't have that problem.
Fair enought the exalted is nice. But i don't want to lay back and attack with 1 creature. Correct me if i'm wrong.

I'm thinking to play more burn instead of the creature removel(Path + edict)

any idea's ?


grtz, Yui

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Please, someone explain to me if this is still a RGW thread or not? I really don't want to have to discuss all this black or tribal style Zoo decks. The opening post is even still RGW.

Someone explain this to me.

Anywho, i don't see why you would wanna splash black, or even make it 5 color. It seems like a single Wasteland would fuck your couch up. I always go on the assumption when i'm deckbuilding that there will be Wastelands around at some point.

Bob does not belong in this deck. Vindicate is too slow, and not necessary since we have Pridemage now. I don't see why anyone would turn such a consistent good deck into some garbage wannabe Extended Tribal Zoo deck.

Sorry for the rant I'm just curious here.


Edit: No offense to you Yui

[Yui]

I posted this because i couldn't find a other zoo topic. Also if its only RGW Zoo then call it that way. Not Zoo, there are more zoo deck then RGW?

If 1 wasteland can fuck everything up then please try a other deck. you have enough land to manage yourself.

Why doesn't bob belonge in the deck. explain it. He gives you more cards. More answers, the life loss is allmost noting. That means greater speed and more answers.

Pridemage, he is good i really mean that. Look at the manacurve of most Counterbalance decks(here in holland it see's allot of play) they have 1,2 off and sometimes a few 3 off's but not allway's. Vindicate is more then a enchantmant of artifact killer. exalted does allmost nothing.
So thats why I didn't play Pridemage, he is a 2 off and vindicate and trygon are 3 off, they will see play more often.

The last thing i have to say. Why the flame post. blabla *insert some crying* this is only a RGW topic. Say everything else sucks except that version. I dont mind it but i have the feeling i have to explain things to a 8 year old.

cheers, Yui

[Iranon]

One quick question... would a list with only 1-drops and a couple of Engineered Explosives be a fantastically bad idea? I like the prospect of speed & consistency, coupled with a versatile answer that can randomly cripple an opponent.

[zulander]

I'm pretty sure the way they merged the threads that this is rgw/4c/5c zoo thread.

I can see someone splashing for black, but not sure why blue. Pridemage replaces trygon and honestly, I feel like sylvan library should replace confidant to keep the mana base solid so that your kird apes and nacatl's are always their max. Also, vindicate and edict? Sorry but vindicate just doesn't cut it and edict is terrible, run burn or if you play black then play terminate. Just my $0.02.

[Waikiki]

zoo on deckcheck says vindicate is actually a fine answer to problem permanents so zoo critters can keep om kicking in. Also blue and black are for confidant and extra tribal flame damage.

on the predator vs pridemage part, yes pridemage is way better.

[eq.firemind]

I'm pretty sure the way they merged the threads that this is rgw/4c/5c zoo thread.
I agree, but don't feel it's good.

About Domain Zoo:
I can't think matchups where it's better than Normal Zoo.
Examples:
NZoo tears Goblins apart, has nice game against Merfolks and Elves. DZoo can be slowed enough with just 1 Wasteland.
NZoo feels shitty against Chalice/Trinisphere, but now Pridemage helps alot here. There are 2 decks playing that: DrStompy and StaX. DZoo has more options against Chalice/Trini(still bad), but Moon effects crush DZoo in DrStompy and Wasteland can buy enough time for StaX to set the lock.
NZoo is faster so it has better chances to race Burn than DZoo.
EvaGreen and DeadGuy LD package is a real pain for DZoo.
Point me if I'm wrong somewhere.

[leander?]

I wanted to play Yixlid Jailer instead of crypts or atleast a mix. The jailer swings for 2 and has a great ability.

I'm thinking to play more burn instead of the creature removel(Path + edict)

any idea's ?
Hey, I was the Aggro Loam player. I'm not really sure what it was, but I kinda sucked yesterday.. (It would have been so much cooler to after I said "I don't think I'm such a good player", just win the match 2-0:tongue: :frown: )
Engough about that, personally I really like the idea of running more burn instead of path/edict, but maybe thats just becouse I really like the amount of burn in Goyf Sligh, wich I have been testing for a while now.
About Jailer vs Crypt: A Jailer that sticks is for me (just from the Aggro Loam player's point of view) much worse than an average activated crypt. Sometimes the activation gives me some troubles, but most of the time I'm able to recover pretty fast. Still, a Crypt activation is nearly-unstoppable for me (as long as you break it as soon as you drop it without passing priority), while a 2/1 critter is fairly easy to answer. But then again, It's not like I can have too much creatureremoval in this matchup. So a terminate on Jailer is a Terminate less for your next must-answer threat.
So for the aggro loam matchup, yes replace crypt by jailer. But for the Ichorid matchup, Jailer is only really playable when you're on the play an you can drop it turn 2. Otherwise its probably far too late. Jailer is a proactive card, while Crypt is a reactive one, so you need to get Y.J. online early.

[Mayk0l]

Bla..


I don't get the explanation. How is Jailer better against Loam than Crypt? Sure, Jailer is nasty as long as it's around, but you get everything back you had the moment Jailer leaves play. With Terminates/Engineered Explosives, Seismic Assault, Devastating Dreams, Barbarian Ring and a Wish board, how hard can it be to get rid of Jailer? At least Crypt removes everything you have, right there on the spot. The only out you have to that is Burning Wish when a Loam gets removed.

Also, Jailer is underwhelming against Ichorid. I know from my experience with Ichorid that Jailer has never, ever been a problem to deal with. Cabal Therapy and Unmask are faster than Jailer, even if you're on the play. Other than that, Ichorid will probably side in Chain of Vapor against a black deck or/and Firestorms against Aggro decks, which beat Jailer as well. They can bounce the Jailer when they need to and win, or burn it and win. Jailer is grossly underwhelming against Ichorid to say the least.

[leander?]

Sure, Jailer is not hard to kill, but as I said:

It's not like I can have too much creatureremoval in this matchup. A Terminate on Jailer is a Terminate less for your next must-answer threat.
I'll have to agree that an answered Jailer, contrary to Crypt, doesn't have any impact on the game, wich clearly is a big con. Still, I think the Zoo player should keep in mind that he has to be agressive to win. Tormod's Crypt doesn't fit that plan. Yixlid Jailer does.

About the Ichorid matchup you're probably right, becouse you know the deck far, far better than I do.

[umbowta]

Here's the list I'm currently running, and I'd appreciate some advice:

Mana: 20
4 Foothills
4 Heath
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 23
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Woolly Thoctar
4 Qsali Pridemage

Burn/Removal: 15
4 Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile

Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library

The deck plays great, but sometimes I feel like I'm running one too many lavamancers, not sure if I want to put the 4th thoctar in or the 3rd library or another burn/pte. As for the board I'm leaning to playing 4 grip, 4 shusher, 4 crypt 3 pyroblast, but that doesn't exactly help the combo matchup. I like pyrostatic pillar a lot, not sure if there's a lot of combo though due to all of the blue cb+top decks. I think shusher is definitely an include to come in.

What do you guys think?I'd say cut two Lavamancers and fill in the Chains and Helix. 2-3 Thoctar is okay but I wouldn't go more than that because they can clog you hand and compete for mana at times. You could add another Library iff the card said, "When Sylvan Library comes into play it deals 2-3 damage to target player"...but it doesn't so I prefer to cut it entirely for even more burn. Zoo top decks better than 90% of the decks in the format. If you insist on library manipulation I think Magma Jet fits the goal of the deck better.

4 grip, 4 shusher, 3 pyroblast??? Afraid of Counterbalance much?

[4eak]

Turn 3-4 kills in this deck are rarer than many would like to admit--it requires a nearly perfect hand with very limited interaction from your opponent. I've found Zoo's mid-game to be the red zone, not the early game.

The cool part about Zoo (+3 color sligh) is that you don't have to go balls to the wall because colors open up options. It can shift slightly towards a midrange aggro deck while picking up serious utility. In particular, after playing with Pridemage, I've had to rethink the deck.

Some may not care for him, but I think Dark Confidant is very good in Zoo. Good enough that it can be worth the black splash, even if it further warps our manabase. The card you are guaranteed to lose in order to run Dark Confidant is Price of Progress (which sucks), but if he is left unanswered, he wins games for you all by himself in this format. As an opposing player, I would fear a resolved Confidant before Goyf.

Here's my list:

Creatures: 20
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage

Burn: 16
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Tribal Flames (could easily be Helix or something else)

Mana Base: 24
4 Aether Vial (20 creatures, light mana base, we like instant speed, acceleration, and mana smoothing).

3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest/Mountain

I don't like Kird Ape or his brethren. I think Tarmogoyf + Wild Nacatl are the bread winners. With Confidant and Pridemage, I didn't find a lot of room. Lavamancer is also a serious house. The only reason burn.dec doesn't play him is because they need to maximize virtual CA by making removal useless, but since we already run creatures, we have no excuse not to play the card.

Vial is probably the most controversial card. I am a Vialphile. It's obviously insane against blue decks. The card also curbs mana inconsistencies that occur in a 4c aggro deck, and it makes 1-land hands very keepable. You would think the card slows Zoo down, but it isn't by much. You miss a swing with your 1st turn critter, that is it. However, in the following turns you then get to spend the rest of your mana playing burn and activating Pridemage and Lavamancer. Vial makes you less vulnerable to mass removal, it does some wonderful instant tricks (especially with Pridemage), and it is a house against all forms of mana denial. Some may not find the loss in go-for-the-throat aggro to be worth what Vial brings to the table, but it is always worth testing. There are many reasons why most 20+ creature decks in the DTB forum run Aether Vial. Give the card a shot.





peace,
4eak

[FoulQ]

"Zoo - 130 points in 18 placements (of which 49 RGW, 34 RG, 26 5C, 7 RGB)"

This is from the DTBF Deck Selection thread. If the deck is exclusively RGW then it doesn't technically belong in this forum. I'd PM the mods if you want a clear distinction.

[Berzerked]

I gotta say, I'm not a huge fan of Lavamancer in Zoo; I think he should stay in Goyf Sligh. We have more permanent damage sources (ie. creatures), and tend not to put as many cards into the graveyard in as little a time as Goyf Sligh. They have a lot more burn, creatures that like to go to the grave (Fanatic, Marauders), and Fireblast, which all have obvious synergy with Lavamancer. This could just be play-style, but he hasn't tested well for me, usually getting in a single shock before chumping.

Kird Ape, on the other hand, usually gets in a lot more, and a lot quicker. I can't think of why you wouldn't like him. Sure, Nacatl is better, but Ape still has an ass of 3, which I find highly relevant.

Anyway, if you're already playing 4 color, I don't see a reason not to include a single Volcanic Island and Tropical Island. Tribal Flames dealing 5 damage is insane and not at all hard to achieve by turn 4-5. In addition, with Vial, the weakness in the manabase should be more than made up for, though I haven't had many problems without Vial (which I haven't tested yet). This manabase has been testing well for me:
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

With the black splash what do you guys think of Tidehollow Sculler? Sure we are in no need of any disruption, and he's got a relatively small body, but I can definitely see him grabbing something relevant to clear the way for the real fat. I haven't gotten around to testing him, but any initial thoughts from anyone?

Also, in the black splash I'd definitely go with 2-3x Vindicate. Very versatile, and answers a lot of common problems. I've been enjoying 3 along side 3 Pridemage.

[from Cairo]

I really don't like the idea of Vial in this deck. In an opening 7 it's an alright card, but it's about as bad as drawing lands in the mid game. I guess with Confidant's boost to card drawing (in the 5c Versions) the deck is less dependent on good top decks, but still having essentially 24-25 mana sources seems not great.

I'd rather run something that's more disruptive, while being a threat. The cards that jump out to me as filling similar rolls, better, in this deck are: Gaddock Teeg, Null Rod, or Pithing Needle. Gaddock Teeg serves as a solution to sweepers (Wrath & EE) and while it doesn't make all your guys uncounterable, it shuts off Force of Will. While doing this it also beats for 2 and makes combo dig for a solution before gold fishing you. Null Rod shuts off some sweepers as well EE & Powder Keg, as well as troublesome creature control cards like Vedalken Shackles and Umezawa's Jitte. Additionally it turns off Sensei's Top, so again it doesn't make your guys uncounterable, but it cuts into a huge part of most control decks' manipulation and countering power. It also doubles against Combo cause it turns off all their artifact mana, which is something like 1/6th of their deck and 1/2 their mana acceleration. Pithing Needle I think is weaker than both the above cards, but it can be played along side other Artifacts (like one's own Jittes or Cursed Scroll), and can pin point a few things that Null Rod can't (namely: Wasteland, Survival of the Fittest, Pernicious Deed, Mishra's Factory).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ from Cairo: I totally agree on the Aether Vial statement. It's just a dead draw mid to late game and it seems like it would slow the deck down by just a little.

@everyone else: I really don't like Dark Confidant in the deck at all. We all know how good he is, but in more cases than none he shocks you, draws a card to replace drawing him, and die. I just don't think he is necessary.

[Berzerked]

Sure, but if he dies by Swords, that shock got mitigated and I just 2:1 the opponent. Confident is already ridiculous in a deck that basically curves out at 2, and the fact that Zoo/Burn style decks tend to run out of steam pretty quickly is even more of a reason for his inclusion.
I might be biased because I run Confidant and Goyf in almost any deck able to support both, but they are possibly the two best stand-alone creatures in Legacy, and in more cases than not, your opponent doesn't have enough removal to keep both from getting out of control, especially with everything else he has to worry about this deck throwing at him.
I'm also part of the camp of players that tends to fear a resolved Confidant much more than Goyf, and with Goyf being one of the more feared creatures in this deck (I'd say turn 1 Nacatl is possibly a little scarier), why not add a more feared one, especially when it's going to draw you into business?
Crappier manabase? Sure, but again, this deck curves out at 2 and can easily operate on 1-2 lands for at least a while, and with 8-10 fetches, finding the right colors tends not to be too much of a problem.

[Guevera59]

I don't think that Bob is necessary because, in my experiences with the deck, the deck doesn't crap out. It only plays 20-21 lands, allowing the deck to almost always topdeck threats. The black splash is not worth Bob. Wasteland can be devastating and being able to get that GW for Pridemage/Watchwolf is more important than getting the black mana for Bob.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I don't think that Bob is necessary because, in my experiences with the deck, the deck doesn't crap out. It only plays 20-21 lands, allowing the deck to almost always topdeck threats. The black splash is not worth Bob. Wasteland can be devastating and being able to get that GW for Pridemage/Watchwolf is more important than getting the black mana for Bob.

I'm not very good with words, but i agree what Guevera has to say.

@: Berzerked: And as a matter of fact, in all my play time in Zoo, you never have dead topdecks in the mid to late game. Sometimes ya get mana flooded and it happens, but that's just with every deck. Zoo has the uncanny ability to be a midrange deck as well as an aggro deck. Bob just isn't worth it. He doesn't beat or burn. I know that's the nomad's way of saying it, but it makes sense.

[joey223]

hello zoo thread!

@umbowta:yea i would cut 1 lavamancer and add 1 PTE or burn piece.i have not tested the canopy but i am intrigued by it.
and is it just me or do you feel we are running too many lands? every game i have had an abundance of mana.cant help but think of what to do with it besides the obvious.(beat and burn:tongue: )
also can we or should we try to squeeze wasteland in the deck, a la brian six?
i am thinking it would buy a couple of turns.and i really like wasteland:smile:

and i just took 4th at my weekly tourney with this list.

4 kird ape
4 thoctar
4 pridemage
4 wildcat
3 lavamancer
(yes there is no goyf in the list)

4 bolt
4 helix
4 chain
4 STP
3 null rod

2 sylvan library

3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
4 mire
3 foothills
1 heath
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains


now i know speaking of other than RWG zoo lists is frowned upon here but i think bob would belong in another 3 color zoo list.maybe a BRG zoo list or maybe a BGW or even a BWU zoo list. and as usual take the best of those colors and run with it. also if those zoo lists exist i would love to look at them.
please point us in the direction of those lists if you know where they are.

[from Cairo]

now i know speaking of other than RWG zoo lists is frowned upon here but i think bob would belong in another 3 color zoo list.maybe a BRG zoo list or maybe a BGW or even a BWU zoo list. and as usual take the best of those colors and run with it. also if those zoo lists exist i would love to look at them.
please point us in the direction of those lists if you know where they are.

No W/R for Nacatl = Frowntown.

But on the whole Dark Confidant thing, I feel like the card fits with Zoo's overall game plan fine, yea it's more fragile than alot of the guys, but beating for 2 while drawing into cards is fine. And even when he's too small to swing into opposing blockers, he's generally progressing one's game plan as much/more than Isamaru or Gaddock Teeg or something. That is to say, that other fragile 2 power guys are being considered/played, and once he gets outclassed he still does plenty. If they ever printed something similar in R, G, or W (or Timeshift him), I think the resulting card would definitely be run.

That said, I don't think bastardizing the mana base is worth it. Yes the deck curves out at 2, but it also has a bunch of cards that require you to keep land types on board and a fair number of cards with two mana type costs. Even in the 3c versions, Wastelands + another LD spell can be a headache depending on one's hand, like knocking out one's Plateau if the Zoo's opening hand was Forest, Fetch, Nacatl; or being cut off from White with hands that have Pridemages and Helixes (Heli ?). I think 5c can do fine at assembling their colors quickly/~consistently when unopposed or in the face of Wastelands, but if facing more mana disruption, I think the risk is too great for the reward.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I think the big point about aether vial is that you can cheat your color requirements while having a backup plan when faced against land destruction, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Counterbalance, etc. It's not as important in 3 color versions but if you are running 4 or 5 colors then it's necessary to keep you from being color screwed. In any event if you aren't running it in the maindeck you should at least consider it for the sideboard.

[alderon666]

I was read the topic and I saw a discussion about Burning-Tree Shaman and it looks really good on paper. Surely a metagame call as it sucks against burn and other "bad" decks, but it just hates the crap out of "good" decks. I think it at least deserved a mention on the OP.

With countertop running rampart I'd like to know why it isn't widely used? Anyone tested it?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Aether Vial is great in zoo, I've actually worked in back into my list now. I forgot how good it was in the time I haven't been playing with it, especially now that we have pridemage and such. great stuff.

I love burning tree shaman and think he's a fine choice for the deck, he's just not quite as big as some of the other 3drop choices, and doesn't combine well with vial. Still, he's great against the countertop decks, since they will quickly find their life going to 0 every game.

[4eak]

@ Berzerked


I gotta say, I'm not a huge fan of Lavamancer in Zoo; I think he should stay in Goyf Sligh. We have more permanent damage sources (ie. creatures), and tend not to put as many cards into the graveyard in as little a time as Goyf Sligh.

Be honest here: these two decks bleed into each other. If you don't use some arbitrary color requirements, then they are the same deck. Little men + Burn and perhaps a handful of utility cards. Burn-based Fish.

Lavamancer only fits in some Zoo builds. As you said, some versions of the deck don't get cards into the GY as effectively as others. This should certainly be taken into consideration. In conjunction with other creatures which are good at generating card advantage or have a sacrifice ability, Lavamancer can be a very strong choice in the right build.


Anyway, if you're already playing 4 color, I don't see a reason not to include a single Volcanic Island and Tropical Island.

My only concern was improving the stability of the mana base. But, this definitely is a viable option (especially with Vial in the deck).


With the black splash what do you guys think of Tidehollow Sculler

I think the card is great, but I don't think it is as good as the other slots. The double color sometimes hurts. It can buy time in the combo match (which needs the help).

@ from Cairo


I really don't like the idea of Vial in this deck. In an opening 7 it's an alright card, but it's about as bad as drawing lands in the mid game. I guess with Confidant's boost to card drawing (in the 5c Versions) the deck is less dependent on good top decks, but still having essentially 24-25 mana sources seems not great

If you run 17+ creatures, and you aren't dredging them, you have to test Vial. Period. The card has proven itself over and over.

If you go 4-5 color, then Vial plays an even stronger role. It is so much more than just a mana source. Your mileage will vary though. 3 Color versions aren't trying to maximize CA or utility, and the go-for-the-throat has less need for Vial (although Vial still does some very important things in this case). Any version of the deck that slows the pace down just slighty, in favor of a card like Confidant, will appreciate Vial much more.


I'd rather run something that's more disruptive, while being a threat.

I consider Vial to be a threat. There are only a handful of first turn plays in Legacy which always deserves my FoW. Aether Vial is one of those threats. If an opposing control or tempo deck doesn't answer Vial, then they've lost a great deal of interactive opportunity, and often lose the match outright because of the card.

Aether Vial is a dangerous card. It let's you spend your mana elsewhere (like burn or activated abilities), smoothes mana curves, and it helps you avoid interaction. Aether Vial is all too often the backbone of any creature-based aggro deck in Legacy.

@ Loxodon Baileyarch


I really don't like Dark Confidant in the deck at all. We all know how good he is, but in more cases than none he shocks you, draws a card to replace drawing him, and die. I just don't think he is necessary.

The card is straight CA (and it averages to be less than shock, more like a lava dart). Berzerked is right.

You may not find the card necessary (meaning you can still win games without him), but there are so many games that you'll win off the back of just him. He is a must-answer card in this format, and his role is powerful and appropriate in this low cc curve deck.

You don't have to run the card, but I would be very slow to say 'I don't like him at all', as if he has no home in any version of the deck.





peace,
4eak

[Guevera59]

It's not as important in 3 color versions but if you are running 4 or 5 colors then it's necessary to keep you from being color screwed. In any event if you aren't running it in the maindeck you should at least consider it for the sideboard.

That's yet another reason why the 4c and 5c lists are inferior to the 3c lists. Needing to play Aether Vials to counteract the mana inconsistencies and fragility proves my point. I feel as if Vial is awful in Zoo. Instead of dropping a first turn Vial, I wanna drop a Nacatl, a Lavamancer, a Hound, or a Kird Ape. Second turn, I'd rather drop a Goyf, a Watchwolf, a Pridemage. Third turn, a Thoctar, or multiple threats, and, if i do drop a Vial, it loses its utility this late in the game. What would you cut? The point of Zoo is its incredible threat density coupled with effective burn. Vial cuts this threat density down, leading us down a path to poor late game topdecks, which is where we thrive. You mentioned boarding them; what the hell would you board them in against? Vexing Shusher just seems better. If you board them in against land destruction, then you should just play the more consistent 3c Zoo which is much less susceptible to mana pressure.

[Berzerked]

That's yet another reason why the 4c and 5c lists are inferior to the 3c lists. Needing to play Aether Vials to counteract the mana inconsistencies and fragility proves my point.

...of the 69 Zoo decks represented on deckcheck, 42% are 4-5c, with only 13% of those decks playing Vial.

How exactly is your point proven?

[Guevera59]

Sorry if I was unclear. The need for 4c and 5c decks to play Aether Vial proves that they are inconsistent in terms of their mana base. On the other hand, this use of Aether Vial really doesn't fix the deck because, even though it helps the mana base, it takes away from the intense threat density. I would rather play a RGW Zoo list that can maintain this threat density while being able to reliably cast these threats.

I was responding to someone that stated that Aether Vial would be good in 4c-5c lists because it would help reliably cast its threats. I am saying that playing Aether Vial destroys the idea of Zoo: to drop a beater every turn, clearing the way with burn/PtE/StoP. As I said in my last post, I would rather play creatures than waste a turn playing Vial.

Volatile mana base + Aether Vial + less threats < Stable mana base + more threats

[from Cairo]

I'd rather run something that's more disruptive, while being a threat.
I consider Vial to be a threat. There are only a handful of first turn plays in Legacy which always deserves my FoW. Aether Vial is one of those threats. If an opposing control or tempo deck doesn't answer Vial, then they've lost a great deal of interactive opportunity, and often lose the match outright because of the card.

Aether Vial is a dangerous card. It let's you spend your mana elsewhere (like burn or activated abilities), smoothes mana curves, and it helps you avoid interaction. Aether Vial is all too often the backbone of any creature-based aggro deck in Legacy.


I consider it a threat as well, I don't consider it as disruptive as the cards I go on to mention. They contribute to helping creatures resolve, and helping to keep them protected from sweepers, which I consider to be the two major threats that Aether Vial poses. While doing this they either shut off additional cards beyond counter magic, a bunch of examples were mentioned, and additionally in Gaddock Teeg's case he swings for damage while being disruptive.



Aether Vial is a dangerous card. It let's you spend your mana elsewhere (like burn or activated abilities), smoothes mana curves, and it helps you avoid interaction. Aether Vial is all too often the backbone of any creature-based aggro deck in Legacy.

The deck curves out at 2, so there isn't much need for smoothing the curve. It helps in some cases when you're color screwed, but in the 3 color versions that's pretty rare. After the first 3-4 turns there isn't much to be spending mana on so having freed up mana doesn't net you much, other than I suppose posing the threat of more removal in hand. Once the deck hits 3 land drops it's going to be able to play 2 spells a turn though which is as much as it needs to keep pressure up.

I totally agree Vial can be helpful in certain agro decks, like if there is a legitimate mana curve to the deck than Vial is going help immensely (see Goblins) or if there is something inherently synergistic in the decks' shell already (see Merfolk's Standstill or Wizards' Patron Wizard).

[umbowta]

hello zoo thread!

@umbowta:yea i would cut 1 lavamancer and add 1 PTE or burn piece.i have not tested the canopy but i am intrigued by it.
and is it just me or do you feel we are running too many lands? every game i have had an abundance of mana.cant help but think of what to do with it besides the obvious.(beat and burn:tongue: )
also can we or should we try to squeeze wasteland in the deck, a la brian six?
i am thinking it would buy a couple of turns.and i really like wasteland:smile:

and i just took 4th at my weekly tourney with this list.

4 kird ape
4 thoctar
4 pridemage
4 wildcat
3 lavamancer
(yes there is no goyf in the list)

4 bolt
4 helix
4 chain
4 STP
3 null rod

2 sylvan library

3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
4 mire
3 foothills
1 heath
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains


now i know speaking of other than RWG zoo lists is frowned upon here but i think bob would belong in another 3 color zoo list.maybe a BRG zoo list or maybe a BGW or even a BWU zoo list. and as usual take the best of those colors and run with it. also if those zoo lists exist i would love to look at them.
please point us in the direction of those lists if you know where they are.
Congrats on the finish for sure, especially with such a weird list. I'm wondering, do you not own goyfs or what? Also, the fetchlands are a little off. You really want 4 heaths and 4 foothills. Lastly, as long as you're curving out at 3 you need to be running 20 or 21 so you can somewhat consistently make your turn three land drop on the play. On the draw you can cut that down to 18-19 if you feel comfortable doing so; not a good plan versus anyone packing land destruction.

[Berzerked]

Sorry if I was unclear. The need for 4c and 5c decks to play Aether Vial proves that they are inconsistent in terms of their mana base. On the other hand, this use of Aether Vial really doesn't fix the deck because, even though it helps the mana base, it takes away from the intense threat density. I would rather play a RGW Zoo list that can maintain this threat density while being able to reliably cast these threats.

You weren't unclear, but apparently I was.

I am in no way backing up the inclusion of Vial, but you seem to think that that 4-5c Zoo NEEDS Vial to shore up its poor manabase, and whether including Vial or not, that 4-5c lists are inferior. I proved this thought process wrong by giving you statistics that say this:

1 - 42% of the Zoo lists represented on deckcheck are 4-5c. That's almost half. How you can call a splash that makes up about half of the archtypes successful lists "inferior", I do not know. In fact, I'd go as far as to say if the 4-5c manabase wasn't so insanely expensive and unnecessary (most players don't have multiples of every dual land, plus 8-10 on-color fetches), it might be more represented.

2 - Only 13% of 4-5c Zoo plays Vial. In case you still don't understand, that means that 87% of 4-5c lists DO NOT play Vial, yet they still made their Top8. Again, how are you proving that either a) 4-5c lists are inconsistent in any way, or b) that 4-5c lists NEED Vial?

Now, whether these statistics would translate directly to your meta, or any modern meta for that matter, is beside the point. My point is you can't state your opinion and throw in words like "prove" when it is clear that you or any source you have cited (or, rather, not cited), have not proved anything.

That being said, I would tend to agree that Vial does not belong in any splash of Zoo (and these same statistics say the same, though I have not personally tested it, and I have a feeling nor have you).

[4eak]

It doesn't sound like many of you have even tested Aether Vial. What a shame. This isn't just some random tech suggestion. The card is foundational to so many aggro strategies in the format. You simply have to test the card before dismissing it.

I'm not saying it is a 'must' play, as the deck can win a tournament with or without the card, but I would be very slow to dismiss it as inviable.


@ from Cairo


I consider it a threat as well, I don't consider it as disruptive as the cards I go on to mention.

Your examples showed there are cards that are better at disrupting any one particular strategy moreso than others. However, I think Vial includes a multitude of strengths which sum to be more than just a specialized answer like Null rod or Teeg. The sum of Vial's strengths are what validate the card.


They contribute to helping creatures resolve, and helping to keep them protected from sweepers, which I consider to be the two major threats that Aether Vial poses.

I think you've undervalued the first and missed some other important contributions of Vial.

Zoo is fast enough that the only reliably faster deck with which it must force interaction is combo. For all other decks, Zoo is attempting to avoid interaction. It does this in large part by playing threats early and burning to the head. With that said, the rest of the format (minus combo) is looking to interact with Zoo if they hope to win. The common, effective interactions against Zoo usually include some combination of: permission, sustainable blocking/sweeping CA, and mana disruption (CotV, 3Sphere, Wasteland, Stifle, Daze).

Aether Vial enables your most important threats to bypass all of those interactions. Vial is all about what Zoo is trying to do: avoid interaction. Vial is a huge disruption piece against the most common forms of interaction. It is a proactive answer to the various control pieces which can be levied against this deck.

As for permission, Vial is one of the few cards in the format that keeps blue in check. This isn't some small concern. A large portion of the decks you'll face will lose if they cannot answer an active Vial. Even the ubiquitous CB/Top lock becomes almost meaningless as you can push through your best cards and utility through a Vial.

Vial isn't just about avoiding board control, it is also about winning combat wars (through instant vials), and pushing through vital pieces like Qasali at instant speed. Aether Vial gives you an information advantage.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, Vial gives the deck resilience to mana denial strategies. Vial proactively disrupts other tempo decks, making a Chalice, 3Sphere, Stifle or Wasteland much less effective against our deck. Vial stops them from timewalking you, and it answers many of the tools which are used to stabilize against Zoo.

Vial does not slow the deck down by much at all (in many cases it actually accelerates your deck). You still play lots of burn and lots of little men. Vial complements those cards, curbing the weaknesses of the deck, while barely changing the decks goldfish kill.

@ Guevera59


Volatile mana base + Aether Vial + less threats < Stable mana base + more threats

If all threats were equal, then I could agree. The fact is that Vial is about pushing through only the best threats available. It is a different strategy. But, it has a long, long track record.

You say threat density. I say Vial is about threat intensity. You are replacing your poorest spells with a card that directly strengthens many of your strongest spells. There is much to be gained, and very little to be lost. It is quite likely that Vial will win many more matches than what it replaced.




peace,
4eak

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Haha i don't log on for a day and the thread turns into Aether Vial argumentdotthread.

I'm personally against. I suppose if i was playing in a random metagame like a GP, i could MAYBE see it being used. It slows the deck down and is a dead topdeck, while you could be drawing better utility(Teeg, even Cannonist). I want to go, turn one Nacatl every game(exceptions of course), not turn one Aether Vial. But hey, i guess it comes down to whether or not you wanna make your deck slower? Or more well balanced??? Question mark?

Anywho, i just can't stand any other build other than RGW. I've played them in Legacy and Extended and it's just like, hey please mana denial me, i won't even play basics. Too risky. Don't really know why anyone would wanna play anything other than RGW Zoo when it comes to be a better deck.

[Berzerked]

Oh, my bad, you can't stand the black splash so all discussions off. And no one mention Vial anymore. We have to devote the next two pages to arguing about Cursed Scroll and Null Rod.
I'll stop, I should at least be happy you provided some sort of fluff other than just "Argh you're bastardizing my thread!"

P.S. If I misread your tone, I apologize, but I'm tired of internet mtg elitists. This board is about innovation, and innovation is brought about by discussion. Yes, even discussion of suboptimal choices.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've just started testing this deck with vial again, and I'm very pleased with it. You may not hit your first turn threat, but you can drop two threats a turn for the next few turns, which results in about the same clock. Also, the ability to drop instant-speed blockers or EOT creatures for pseudo-haste is incredible in almost every matchup. You really do have to test it, because it's honestly awesome. I know it may not seem like it's the best card for the straight up beatdown deck, but it just lets you win so many games you would otherwise have hardly any stake in. I just beat a Pox player for no other reason that that I was able to deploy my threats without mana. If I had to rely on my lands, I never would have come close to winning that game.

Also, blue decks ABSOLUTELY HAVE to FoW it. If that's one less FoW for my goyfs, I'm absolutely fine with that.

Here's the list I'm currently trying... It's a little bit out there, but I think it's interesting.

2 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
-24 Land-

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary
-21 Creatures-

4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
3 Fireblast
-15 Spells-

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jitte
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 K-Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Volcanic Fallout

The land count is high, but wasteland is testing pretty well for me so far. Turn 1 vial followed by wastelands is a great way to begin a game, as you can deploy your threats and throw some lightning bolts around while keeping them completely off balance. The high land count also allows me to run Knight of the Reliquary with no trouble at all.

Unfortunately, the late-game topdecking is a little weaker, but the game plan and disruption seems very useful. I haven't actually drawn a fireblast yet in my testing (and it's been like 10+ games) but I'm gonna keep testing it, as it seems the extra reach and speed would be great. No STP in this version, which I'm now convinced is better than PtE, because I wanted to have more reach and try to race dreadnoughts or other goyfs I guess. Pridemage can always take care of naught too, so the only creature I really care that much about then is Tombstalker. Annoying, but I can deal with him by racing or swarming or a attack+burn.

And I am definitely sure STP is better than PTE almost all the time now. I find myself constantly questioning whether or not to cast PTE, something I never did with STP. With STP you just cast it and kept on fighting. PTE I feel like I'm giving my opponent free wins by accelerating them into the big cards that kill me.

Edit-I think the thing vial-haters don't get is that vial doesn't slow the deck down a considerable margin, and gives you a much better way to evade disruption as well as allowing much better tricks and allows the better player to expand his playskill advantage.

[AngryTroll]

Vial doesn't really slow you down.

Turn one Vial versus turn one Necatl leaves you three points of damage behind on turn two and three. You then catch up on turn four by swinging with the extra two drop you made on turn three, of burning blockers out of the way while still dropping a dude. There are very few situations where this will be relevant-say, against ANTendrils

You do have one fewer creature/burn spell/land in hand. If you get to run Bob, if he draws you a single card, you break even and have a tempo advantage. If you cut a land for one of the Vials 1/4 of the time you topdeck them, they aren't a worse topdeck than the land would have been.

It's probably unwise to dismiss Vial out of hand.

[4eak]

@ Loxodon Baileyarch


Haha i don't log on for a day and the thread turns into Aether Vial argumentdotthread.

Threads tend to have arguments inside them, even when you aren't there for a day. This one is about Aether Vial. Perhaps tomorrow will be about Lightning Helix.


I want to go, turn one Nacatl every game(exceptions of course), not turn one Aether Vial.

This claim led you to a non sequitur. We aren't running Vial in place of Nacatl.


It slows the deck down and is a dead topdeck

I can understand there is a price to pay for the topdeck, although even then, it can be an excellent card to resolve. But think about what card would have been in Aether Vial's place. Usually a 1cc creature that may have been dead or less useful against opposing blockers in the first place.


But hey, i guess it comes down to whether or not you wanna make your deck slower? Or more well balanced??? Question mark?

Are you purposely misconstruing the argument? Even if you are on topic, what evidence did you provide for Aether Vial slowing down the deck?

Vial pays for your creatures, leaving your mana open to play burn and activated abilities. In goldfishing, Vial isn't really much slower at all. And when you are actually playing against an opponent which seeks to interact with you, Vial will often be pushing creatures into play in circumstances where you may not have been able to play and resolve them otherwise.

We should ask questions like:

How many one (and sometimes two) land hands would you have to mull where you otherwise wouldn't because of Aether Vial?

For those decks which have chosen to go 4 or 5 color (sacrificing mana stability for a greater range of cards, abusing stronger creatures like Confidant that otherwise aren't in color), how valuable is Aether Vial?

What games or matchups would you win more often because you had [card which may be replaced] instead of Vial, and vice versa?

What is to be gained from avoiding permission?

I'm arguing that Vial is a good card and is worth testing. It brings a lot more to table than some are willing to admit. Is it optimal, I'm not sure. It sounds pretty metagame and build dependent.

Your argument certainly hasn't clarified the issue though.




peace,
4eak

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ hungryLIKEALION: Wasteland in Zoo seems bad when you want to cast Nacatl, Ape, and sometimes Fireblast. I mean i can't say i've ever tested it or anything though. Also, your sn reminds me of a Black Mages song.

@Beserked: I'm honored you think this thread is mine, really. It's just, all this blurring with Goyf Sligh and now 8c Zoo lists is making my head hurt. I mean there was even a suggestion a few pages back about cutting green and red. Like wtf... I hope you understand what i'm getting at here haha. I agree with your last statement though.

@ Angry Troll: I would actually like to see land late game instead of Aether Vial, because it's usually in the form of a fetch land which thins my lands. And i mean let's be honest, if you get into the late game for too long you've lost anyway. Haha.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I kept all the lands you'd normally have, and added the wastelands in a spell slot. They seem fine there so far, though occasionally I feel like another burn spell might be better. I might put lavamancer, isamaru, or a 2cc beater back in instead, but I haven't decided yet. I also kind of miss reckless charge, but I'm feeling better about cutting it now than I was when I did it.

[Arctic_Slicer]

Anywho, i just can't stand any other build other than RGW. I've played them in Legacy and Extended and it's just like, hey please mana denial me, i won't even play basics. Too risky. Don't really know why anyone would wanna play anything other than RGW Zoo when it comes to be a better deck.

That kind of attitude has been the bane of many would-be pros. It stifles innovation and prevents decks from getting better.

Have you even played with Aether Vial? You seem far to quick to dismiss because it's one of the best cards in the format and has been one of the defining cards of aggro decks since the birth of Legacy. The card was banned in extended because it's quite literally broken. It's a must answer spell that gives an aggro player inevitability that is hard to beat. The card doesn't slow you down anymore than a first turn Birds of Paradise slows you down; it allows you to play more and better threats out faster so that you can ensure the win that much quicker. Blue players are always burning a Force of Will, a random blue card and a point of life just to keep the card off of the table; something they would rarely if ever do for a Wild Nacatl. It's a format defining card that deserves the same respect as Tarmogoyf and Force of Will; it's that good.


Aether Vial is a pretty ridiculous card. It costs but one mana, and it makes all of your creatures essentially uncounterable free instants. It messes up permission, combat, you name it. Basically it's like a super Dark Ritual that gives you 17 free mana over the course of a game.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I kept all the lands you'd normally have, and added the wastelands in a spell slot. They seem fine there so far, though occasionally I feel like another burn spell might be better. I might put lavamancer, isamaru, or a 2cc beater back in instead, but I haven't decided yet. I also kind of miss reckless charge, but I'm feeling better about cutting it now than I was when I did it.

I'm going to suggest Watchwolf if you want more pure beef. And Chain Lightning/Pte if you want spells. I wouldn't run PTE and Wasteland together though, but you probably knew that already haha.

Also, how can a 3of Wasteland be THAT good ya know? It doesn't help the decks gameplan at all, but it has the tendency to randomly fuck up decks. I still don't like it though. And if i ran KOTR i would run alot of fetches.

@ Artic Slicer: No i haven't played Vial before. What does that card do again? Isn't it like, cheat dudes into play?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Well, i'm not saying it's THAT good, I'm just saying it's been useful so far. I've won a few games that I might not have won without it, and it hasn't really cost me any games yet, so I'm still playing around to see how much I like it. Like I said though, watchwolf or another burn spell could be better. or STP or PTE. I'm not sure yet. I'm gonna keep working on it and get back to the discussion when I've come to a conclusion.

Also, has anyone tried Anathemancer in a 4c list? I'm putting one together with him right now and am going to go test it out. I'll post my results in a bit.

---

K, tested it a little. It seems good, but I'm not convinced it's worth the splash. Here's the list I tried:

// Lands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Badlands
2 [U] Savannah
1 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Plateau
3 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Anathemancer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [TSB] Tribal Flames

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [CNF] Volcanic Fallout

Anathemancer is usually worth a bolt + body, but sometimes against landstill (or 43 land... >:D) it can be so much more. I'm gonna keep testing it, though I doubt it'll be the version I settle on.

[eq.firemind]

Burn/Zoo/Sligh decks all have the same problem: they run out of gas. If one of my 7 starting cards is Aether Vial, I'll run out of gas even faster. To balance this, I can and add Dark Confidant. Result: I have 4 cards to set up my agression better, 4 cards to refuel => 8 cards for better mid-late game.
But!
a) I have weaker manabase. Well, Vial is here to compensate that, but if I have no Vial in my 7 and opp has some mana denial? Bah, my deck became less consistent.
b) Outside Vial and Confidant, my whole deck was designed to be an early fast aggro, not midgame, so with Vial and Confidant the deck lost its focus. That's the main reason I don't like 4c/Domain "Zoo" decks.

Somewhere in late 2008/ I've experimented with various Zoo colors and WRG was not acceptable for me 'cause I had no good answers to shit that brakes my gameplan (like CB and Chalice). Well, there were Grip and the likes, but their presence in my deck already shrinks the amount of early preasure I could put on the table. Since that times, Alara Reborn came out and gives us the solution: Qasali Pridemage. Now I can't see any reason to run black or blue.

I've posted some thoughts on matchups, but no one responded :frown:. So people, please, point me, how the addition of :b: or/and :u: will affect(improve) our matchups. IMHO Vial needs the same discussion to be productive.

Oh, and Wasteland.
All succesfull decks with Wasteland run
a) Another form of mana denial (TempoThresh, TA, EvaGreen).
b) A way to recurr it to softlock (Loam, Stax).
And they all have their ways to capitalize after throw you off balance (say, big dude, effective Daze, (Magus of) the Tabernacle).
Zoo have none of mentioned above. Yeah, Wateland is great card, but it can't help our gameplan much. Oh, and I want my second land to be Mountain or Plains for my Nacatl. And I ALWAYS want to be able to cast my Pridemage on turn 2. So sorry Wasteland, please find another home.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Burn/Zoo/Sligh decks all have the same problem: they run out of gas. If one of my 7 starting cards is Aether Vial, I'll run out of gas even faster. To balance this, I can and add Dark Confidant. Result: I have 4 cards to set up my agression better, 4 cards to refuel => 8 cards for better mid-late game.
But!
a) I have weaker manabase. Well, Vial is here to compensate that, but if I have no Vial in my 7 and opp has some mana denial? Bah, my deck became less consistent.
b) Outside Vial and Confidant, my whole deck was designed to be an early fast aggro, not midgame, so with Vial and Confidant the deck lost its focus. That's the main reason I don't like 4c/Domain "Zoo" decks.

Somewhere in late 2008/ I've experimented with various Zoo colors and WRG was not acceptable for me 'cause I had no good answers to shit that brakes my gameplan (like CB and Chalice). Well, there were Grip and the likes, but their presence in my deck already shrinks the amount of early preasure I could put on the table. Since that times, Alara Reborn came out and gives us the solution: Qasali Pridemage. Now I can't see any reason to run black or blue.

I've posted some thoughts on matchups, but no one responded :frown:. So people, please, point me, how the addition of :b: or/and :u: will affect(improve) our matchups. IMHO Vial needs the same discussion to be productive.Alright, here's the vial analysis.

Dragonstompy goes from average on the play to great, since vial allows you to play all your dudes through their disruption, including pridemages to blow up their moons/chalices/3spheres. Without vial, this matchup is much harder.

Pox goes from average to great, same reasons as above except pridemage isn't as important.

Against any blue deck, vial is amazing. These matchups are usually about 55/45, but with vial it improves vastly. It makes a full quarter of their deck most of the time into dead cards and vastly decreases the effectiveness of wasteland against you.

Stax improves similarly to dragonstompy.

Aggro matchups are a trade off. You have 4 less dudes/removal spells, but tons of opportunities to generate 2-for-1s, and can dodge all the mana denial shenanigans of Goblins. I'd say it's a positive to have it.

So yes, Dragonstompy, Stax, and Pox may not be the most popular of decks around, but Vial improves all those matchups by a very large amount, making all three of them from bad-ish to very good. And at a decent sized tournament, you will definitely see those decks (I'm a huge advocate of DStompy in the current metagame, too. If you've never tried that deck, you should. It's pretty awesome.) The boost against blue decks is tangible, though, and I don't understand how everyone is shrugging it off when blue is the most popular color in the format.


Oh, and Wasteland.
All succesfull decks with Wasteland run
a) Another form of mana denial (TempoThresh, TA, EvaGreen).
b) A way to recurr it to softlock (Loam, Stax).
And they all have their ways to capitalize after throw you off balance (say, big dude, effective Daze, (Magus of) the Tabernacle).
Zoo have none of mentioned above. Yeah, Wateland is great card, but it can't help our gameplan much. Oh, and I want my second land to be Mountain or Plains for my Nacatl. And I ALWAYS want to be able to cast my Pridemage on turn 2. So sorry Wasteland, please find another home.

Like I said earlier, I had a game where I went t1 Vial t2-3 wastelands. My opponent was never in that game. It most definitely can support your gameplan.

And I don't know why everyone keeps complaining about not being able to cast their nacatls and pridemages, when I clearly pointed out that there are 24 lands in that build. It's got all the lands you normally need to play your pridemages, so please stop complaining about that.

Synergy with KoTR, which I run, is also good.

[eq.firemind]

Dragonstompy goes from average on the play to great, since vial allows you to play all your dudes through their disruption, including pridemages to blow up their moons/chalices/3spheres. Without vial, this matchup is much harder.
And if you're on draw? And if you have no Vial in opening 7? And how do your Apes, Nacatls and Tribal Flames feel under Moon effect? And if they play turn 1 creature, turn 2 eqip it with SoFaI/Jitte (with Vial, you run less burn, so it's harder to respond this)? And if they resolve turn 1 Slogger (and you have Vial instead of 2nd burn spell)? Too many "If", don't you think?


Pox goes from average to great, same reasons as above except pridemage isn't as important.
Maybe, I've never tested against Pox 'cause no one playing it in my area. In theory, high amount of cheap burn can turn their Pox against them the same manner Vialed threats do, but I dunno...


Stax improves similarly to dragonstompy.
Humility+Elspeth? Magus or the Tabernacle + Geddon? You're on draw? turn 2 Exalted Angel (and Vial instead of 2nd burt to kill her fast)? Again, too many "If"...


Like I said earlier, I had a game where I went t1 Vial t2-3 wastelands. My opponent was never in that game. It most definitely can support your gameplan.

And I don't know why everyone keeps complaining about not being able to cast their nacatls and pridemages, when I clearly pointed out that there are 24 lands in that build. It's got all the lands you normally need to play your pridemages, so please stop complaining about that..

Ok, about your deck: 28 mana sources in aggressive deck with no draw, no manipulate and no high-cost spells? Oh, Fireblast! But Blast + Teeg mandeck??

In general: Vial is a great card. But.
I. Don't. Want. To. Cut. BURN!
That's the key of Zoo/Sligh: cheap fast creatures, bash, finish with burn if they deal with creatures/before they stabilize. That's the strategy.

Successfull decks with Vial are: Merfolk, Goblins. Less successful: Dead & Taxes, VialFish(+Faestill).
All theese decks run cards that make Vial better than manacheat+nocounter(Waste+Port tempo, Waste+Standstill+manlands, Spellstutter Sprite+Standstill, Tricks+Serra Avenger).
I don't see any of theese Vial tricks in Zoo and I don't think Zoo's low curve needs acceleration, one of Vial's main purpouse(the second is uncounterability because blue >>> metagame).

[4eak]

@ eq.firemind


Burn/Zoo/Sligh decks all have the same problem: they run out of gas. If one of my 7 starting cards is Aether Vial, I'll run out of gas even faster.

You aren't removing cards that are absolutely amazing though. You aren't taking Goyf out of the deck, you're taking a 2 power critter out. All gas is not equal, and the opportunity cost for running Vial isn't that high.

Vial does make the rest of your gas better though. And, it means that in many circumstances, your gas actually has meaning, even in the face of an opposing Chalice or CB/Top lock.


I have weaker manabase. Well, Vial is here to compensate that, but if I have no Vial in my 7 and opp has some mana denial? Bah, my deck became less consistent.

The consistency issue is out of context. Zoo decks playing Vial will always be more consistent on average than those without Vial against mana denial. This mana consistency is one of the reasons to play Vial in the first place.

Going for a 4th/5th color is up to you. If you think Vial increases the average consistency of the deck enough to make up for the inconsistency of adding another color, then go for it. If you don't, so what? That is not an argument against Vial itself.


Humility+Elspeth? Magus or the Tabernacle + Geddon? You're on draw? turn 2 Exalted Angel (and not enough bunt to kill her fast)? Again, too many "If".

You're joking, right? Vial is insane in this matchup. You're "if's" are poor exceptions that have completely ignored the fundamentals of this matchup.

Chalice, Geddon, 3-Sphere, Wasteland/Crucible, and Smokestack (which are commonly found in stax) are perfect reasons to play Aether Vial. Vial gives you ways to pump permanents into play through their hate.


And if you're on draw? And if you have no Vial in opening 7? And how do your Apes, Nacatls and Tribal Flames feel under Moon effect? And if they play turn 1 creature, turn 2 eqip it with SoFaI/Jitte (with Vial, you run less burn, so it's harder to respond this)? And if they resolve turn 1 Slogger (and you have Vial instead of 2nd burn spell)? Too many "If", don't you think?

If you don't open with Vial, /shrug, well you didn't open with Vial. You'd be in roughly the same position as if you didn't run it in your deck in the first place.

I think having Vial in your deck is still better than not having it in your deck in all of those situations. About 37% of the time you'll have Vial, and the rest of the time you'll be playing business as usual.

You continue to bring up some pretty amazing and uncommon opposing hands: like Turn 2 Creature/Jitte equipped. These aren't the common sorts of disruption that I meet. You need to rethink your examples. As in most of your examples, I think you have a good chance to lose regardless of whether or not you had Vial in your deck.


Successfull decks with Vial are: Merfolk, Goblins. Less successful: Dead & Taxes, VialFish(+Faestill).

You missed quite a few. Affinity, Counterslivers, Survival, Cephalid Breakfast, and while you mentioned it, you've not captured the value of it -- 30 million flavors of Fish (in all colors) abuse Vial. Zoo is Fish. Vial certainly isn't out of place.


All theese decks run cards that make Vial better than manacheat+nocounter(Waste+Port tempo, Waste+Standstill+manlands, Spellstutter Sprite+Standstill, Mangara+Karakas, Flickerwisp tricks).
I don't see any of theese Vial tricks in Zoo and I don't think Zoo's low curve needs manacheat, one of Vial's main purpouse(the second is uncounterable because blue>metagame)

Many deploy cards with additional synergy to Vial, but you've obviously forgotten many that don't and still successfully run the card. The fact that you don't see any Vial tricks for Zoo is a sign that you've not practiced with the card enough. The card commonly abuses information advantage at instant speed, creating opportunities to 2 for 1 traps or unexpected lines of play for your opponent.

Smoothing mana curves (CC and Color) is important, even in Zoo, especially since it lets you spend your mana on your other non-creature spells.

There are certainly games you will lose because you ran Vial instead of a low end creature/burn spell, but there are also many that you will win because you ran Aether Vial. Vial curbs some of the greater weaknesses of this archetype (as it has for so many aggro decks).



peace,
4eak

[gnat]

What about vial as a sideboard card?

Because I've seen arguments like:

I don't want to cut creatures/burn main deck (I want to keep it early game aggro)
<-> Vial improves A LOT of matchups.

[Skeggi]

Vial is particularly good to dodge stuff like Counterbalance. But if that's your problem, shouldn't you just play Trygon Predators, so you can swing with a 3/3 turn 2 instead of having carddisadvantage and swinging on turn 3?

[Nessaja]

Vial isn't a card that you just add to a deck. You either build a deck with Vial and adjust your lands and creaturespells accordingly. Or you don't use vial.

Vial would allow you to play both creature spells and burn in the same turn, it's a tempo card, or atleast one that allows you to gain tempo. I do agree that nothing else in the deck really tries to take advantage of that tempo (like wastelands) but as said, you need to do more then just adding vials when you go for that route.

I'm fairly sure it works both ways, it's more a matter of playstyle if any, fast all in or a midgame oriented approach.

[Skeggi]

it's a tempo card
Is it? I think it would rather slow you down.

[Nessaja]

Tempo isn't the same as speed.

[Skeggi]

Then please explain to me what 'tempo' is, and why Aether Vial is a good thing for Zoo.

[eq.firemind]

Zoo is Fish

I finally get it. We argue about same 2 cards (Confi and Vial) in two different decks.

There are 2 groups of people:

First (including me) plays and discuss RWG aggro(/midrange) deck that has basically evolved this way: Sligh => Goyfsligh (added 2nd color and better dudes) => Zoo (added 3rd color for sideboard options and some utility/metagame dudes).

The second group plays and discuss RGW(x) (aggro/)midrange Fish-like deck.

Two decks have many cards in common, but they are different and that merged discussion comes in wrong direction.

[4eak]

@ eq.firemind


I finally get it. We argue about same 2 cards (Confi and Vial) in two different decks.

Hehe. I alluded to a similar point in my original post about Aether Vial in this thread. I think Zoo is a very aggressive aggro-control deck, and with the addition of Qasali its possible roles may flexibly shift a bit.

I wouldn't call them different decks though (not yet at least). They have a slightly different focus with different strengths. The differences in role are still only slight ones in the broad scheme of things.

If you commonly point burn at creatures, not just obvious targets like True Believer, trying to win ground wars, then you definitely are playing a form of Fish. Call it Sligh/Zoo, whatever you want. When burn isn't just going to the head, and you choose to interact with control features like an opposing Goyf blocking your weenies, then you are playing aggro-control. Some Zoo decks are more aggressive Fish decks than others, but because they all have the need to play control/disruption, directly interacting with the opponent's gameplan, from time to time, then they are all Red Fish.

We are all playing Burn-based fish, and the differences really aren't that big. The two camps still have very similar decks. Both camps are seeking the same thing: Limited interaction using fast critters in a burn-shell. Everything else added to the deck is about maximizing that role, including those in favor of testing Aether Vial and Confidant.

I think you've missed part of the evolution though. From my perspective, this all started with straight mono red burn. In a vacuum, Burn is the more consistent turn 4 win deck. But, it is too subject to an opponent's ability to interact. However, for the price of a small bit of speed and losing a bit of virtual CA, adding creatures creates a cheap and reliable source of damage over time with a more stable deck against opposing control features. You don't need all your spells to stick to win, just a few. The second camp is arguing that it is viable to continue using that principle -- they still started from the same Burn and Sligh decks you did. Adding even more colors and responses to opposing control features has been a common theme in the evolutions of this deck.

Zoo doesn't play pure aggro, or it would just stay Burn (even though Burn.dec must contend with its increasing reliance on playing the control role). Zoo/Sligh was a shift to play control against some of the answers to Burn.dec, to bypass or mitigate those answers. From an evolutionary standpoint, it seems well within the tradition of this deck to allow for answering your opponent just enough to maintain that aggressive role as early as possible.

I'm not saying adding Qasali Pridemage, Confidant, and Vial are necessary (although if the metagame shifts to answer Zoo, then it could be), but I've certainly found them to be viable choices in Zoo.







peace,
4eak

[Skeggi]

The history of the deck is pretty irrelevant, it's about where the deck is now. As far as I know all Zoo decks are based on the same strategy (I just stole point 5 from the TT thread):

Focuses its game plan on deploying its assets faster than the opponent (also known as "tempo") and trying to kill him before he can stabilize his/her position and execute his/her game plan
This is why Aether Vial doesn't fit. Using cards like Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer or Tidehollow Sculler help disrupting your opponent while beating face. They seem to be the foundation of what Zoo is, next to the ridiculously cheap beaters that are Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape.

[4eak]

@ Skeggi

You've implicitly stated that Zoo is exclusively about tempo. I won't deny tempo is important, but there are other things to consider.


The history of the deck is pretty irrelevant, it's about where the deck is now.

Clearly you've missed the principle of the exercise then. Effectively evaluating 'where the deck is now' will take into account and learn from the history of the deck.

If we are really only after raw tempo, then Burn was that deck. We should never have changed. Burn was always awesome at deploying its assets as fast as possible. The principle we should extract from the deck history is that "deploying your assets faster than your opponent" wasn't always a working strategy, which is why Burn evolved into Sligh/Zoo.

Adding slower, less tempo oriented cards which answer our opponent's control strategy became a better play than just seeking raw tempo. Likewise, when Zoo gets answered, and there are many answers to it, we should definitely consider losing a small bit of tempo in favor of cards that answer opponent's control strategies.

Vial/Confidant/Qasali is just a continuation of Zoo's evolution from Burn. In metagames preparing for Zoo, this could easily be the natural step.

When you sit down to actually test Vial, you'll find that very little tempo is lost in the first place. I've provided several reasons already for how and why this works. Very little offensive power is lost for the powerful, proactive defensive answer to our opponent's control cards. In any deck with 17+ creatures, it is always worth testing and talking about Aether Vial.

Essentially, Vial is a tempo card when it is answering your opponent's control strategy. You will effectively be deploying your assets faster with Vial than you normally could without it in the face of mana denial, permission, and certain types of board control.

The best argument against Aether Vial is the assumption that Zoo already avoids interaction with the opponent and will continue to do so. I think this is a poor assumption, as I think many sideboards will start preparing for this match. Vial only becomes better and better as metagames prepare for your aggro strategy because it enables you to continue to avoid interaction, even when your opponent has put in the effort and sideboard space to effectively interact with and control your deck.









peace,
4eak

[Pomaxx]

has anyone else tested Goblin Legionaires (i run 2-3 in Kird Ape/ Lavamancer Slots)? my first impressions are positive. in case you are able to hold some mana open they do a lot of useful things and do swing for a nice 2 if needed as well.

[Nessaja]

and why Aether Vial is a good thing for Zoo.
I never said that.

Then please explain to me what 'tempo' is
Tempo is using your resources (mana, and turns) to improve your board position. For instance, if you have a Tarmogoyf on the table and your opponent does too, playing an unsummon is card disadvantage but it will improve your board advantage, effectively giving you a tempo boost. Resource denial and likewise extra resources at the cost of card advantage are related to tempo as well. For example, stifle, sinkhole, dark ritual or lotus petal. When you stifle a fetchland you didn't only trade 1 for 1, you also effectively timewalked your opponent because you can only drop 1 land each turn (time resource)

Likewise, Aether Vial allows you to improve your board position drastically (also faster) which is why it's suited for tempo strategies. While it is true that when it comes into play it is actually a tempo loss - as soon as you are able to cast creatures with it you gain tempo with it.

You could check out this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7249) article if you want a more in depth look.

[ScatmanX]

Vial does not speed the deck down. At least in goblins it doesen´t. =)

[hungryLIKEALION]

And if you're on draw? And if you have no Vial in opening 7? And how do your Apes, Nacatls and Tribal Flames feel under Moon effect? And if they play turn 1 creature, turn 2 eqip it with SoFaI/Jitte (with Vial, you run less burn, so it's harder to respond this)? And if they resolve turn 1 Slogger (and you have Vial instead of 2nd burn spell)? Too many "If", don't you think?If you have no Vial then it's irrelevant whether it's in your deck or not, so it's not worth debating. And no, I don't think that's too many "if". On the play you can give yourself a free pass through all of their disruption. Yes, Apes and Nacatls do suck under moon, but the rest of your creatures don't. (The list with Tribal Flames is not the one I intend to run in any tournament, it's something I'm testing.) I don't know if you've ever actually played Dragonstompy, but I have a lot, and the games where you go turn 1 creature turn 2 jitte and equip are very rare. On the draw it's still good because they could play first turn moon. Yes, first turn 3sphere still fucks you, but how would another burn spell or 2cc beater have been better than vial in that scenario? At least Vial gives you a very real way to break the matchup wide open, something that another burn spell will never help with.



Maybe, I've never tested against Pox 'cause no one playing it in my area. In theory, high amount of cheap burn can turn their Pox against them the same manner Vialed threats do, but I dunno...It's hard to cast burn spells without lands. Never tested against Pox? Trust me, you won't have lands past the second turn 90% of the time.



Humility+Elspeth? Magus or the Tabernacle + Geddon? You're on draw? turn 2 Exalted Angel (and Vial instead of 2nd burt to kill her fast)? Again, too many "If"...Think of what card you'd have instead of Vial in these situations. Another 2cc beater? one more 3 damage burn spell? If you can get the stax player to 3 and still have a mana up (Or 3 under 3sphere) to cast the burn spell, you must've pulled off a miracle with your creatures to get them through all the disruption. It's much more likely that Vial will allow you to play out your creatures through their chalice and 3spheres and you can race them.


Ok, about your deck: 28 mana sources in aggressive deck with no draw, no manipulate and no high-cost spells? Oh, Fireblast! But Blast + Teeg mandeck?? I never said it was the be all-end all zoo list that everyone should be running, just that I was testing it. No, I don't intend to run that list at any major tournament, but it was worth testing it to see if I liked it. And from what I saw, Wasteland was good. It has great synergy with Vial, since I was able to drop beaters and stop my opponent from progressing at the same time. And yes, you're right, teeg+fireblast does suck. I hadn't thought of that, probably because I built the list around midnight and was tired. But again, I wanted to test it to see if I liked it. In the end I didn't, so I went on to test something else.


In general: Vial is a great card. But.
I. Don't. Want. To. Cut. BURN!
That's the key of Zoo/Sligh: cheap fast creatures, bash, finish with burn if they deal with creatures/before they stabilize. That's the strategy.The thing is Vial helps you prevent them from stabilizing and makes it harder for them to deal with your creatures. It's hard for a blue deck to stabilize when they can't counter any of your creatures;You generate virtual CA since their forces, dazes, and spellsnares now only have half as many targets, and have a clock that will often be just as fast as without it, and often faster in the face of disruption.


Successfull decks with Vial are: Merfolk, Goblins. Less successful: Dead & Taxes, VialFish(+Faestill).
All theese decks run cards that make Vial better than manacheat+nocounter(Waste+Port tempo, Waste+Standstill+manlands, Spellstutter Sprite+Standstill, Tricks+Serra Avenger).
I don't see any of theese Vial tricks in Zoo and I don't think Zoo's low curve needs acceleration, one of Vial's main purpouse(the second is uncounterability because blue >>> metagame).

I don't see why no one seems to think the ability to play creatures at the end of your opponent's turn is relevant. That information advantage is huge. They don't know how many blockers to leave up, or how many creatures to attack with. It also lets you dodge firespout or wrath or pyroclasm(for the creatures pyroclasm affects). And it lets you dodge counterspells of all kinds, which are, from what I hear, very popular these days.

If a card gives you huge improvements in the face of commonly played disruption, despite slowing your clock by maybe a turn but usually nothing, how is that not a good thing?

[from Cairo]

Vial does not speed the deck down. At least in goblins it doesen´t. =)

Goblins makes the best use of Aether Vial in the format, maybe in the game, this post isn't remotely relevant to Aether Vial's role (or lack there of) in Zoo.

What makes it insane in Goblins is when on Turn 3 you're dropping 5 mana worth of guys, and Turn 4 your dropping 7 mana worth of guys, and Turn 5 you're able to drop 9 mana worth of guys. In most decks one would play there hand out and stall pretty quickly, even with the mana curve going up to 5, but Goblins allows you to chain a full hand worth of stuff, to keep Vial busy.

In Zoo you don't get the advantage of curving out with Vial. On Turn 3 you're able to Vial at 2 and cast a guy and some burn. Turn 4 and Turn 5 your Vial is still at 2, and you're not Matroning/Ringleadering into a grip full of more stuff to cast, so the extra mana is likely irrelevant anyway.

[Berzerked]

Ok, so just finished some testing with Vial and actually I'm very pleased with my first impressions (My testing gauntlet was Landstill, Thrash, and Merfolk. I chose these because they are the decks right now packing the LD, which apparently is where 4-5c sucks). Here's the list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Trygon Predator
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Tribal Flames
3 Vindicate

4 Aether Vial

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Weird? Yes, but I needed to rule in/out some specific card choices I had questions about (Sculler, Predator, Vial, Manabase). Only problem is, so far, these weird inclusions seem fine. Actually, the manabase was great, and I'm even thinking of possibly going down on some land and something else (don't know what yet), for a set of Magma Jets (as a U player, I kind of missed any manipulation, especially with Bob around. Also seeing multiple Vials isn't that cool).
I love Pridemage and Predator together (another combo I've been sticking into every deck possible). There are so many relevant enchantments/artifacts around that just roll over to these guys, and I love getting in for 3 flying when both are in play.
Consistent 5 damage Tribal Flames by turn 3-5...:laugh:
Bob was awesome, sucking up removal, or living to basically singlehandedly win me the game. Awesome against Landstill and Merfolk, not Thrash.
Humility sucks, but Sculler grabbed it once. Post board Grip wins anyway. Sculler was actually pretty good. Less so against Thrash.
Instant speed Pridemage was just mauling enemy Vials left and right against Merfolk. Obviously Merfolk isn't a hard matchup anyway, but this configuration made it a breeze. He had to Stifle Sculler once, haha, because they don't play any removal!
Vindicate!! Another reason why playing B alongside W is awesome - no gay STP.

I'm definitely going to keep testing this list.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ Pomaxx: It was originally tested in my two open spots, and it turns out to be really bad or really good. He is too mana intensive and i think the Pridemage just took his spot straightup.

@ Everyone else: What you any of you guys be cutting for Aether Vial anyway? Lands, Dudes, Burn??? Everything but lands doesnt seem acceptable and even then it seems mediocre.

[Berzerked]

Hmm. check my list above you.

Without Vial, idk, I might be playing either Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix. Most likely Chain. Vial seems worth it so far.

[Valtrix]

I think that you can't cut just one or the other, because vial does not directly replace them. I'm not sure if I'd want to play 16 lands + 4 vials, because that seems low, but yet 20 lands + vial seems like too many. I think that replacing, say, 2 land and 2 less-optimal cards would work out fine (depending on the amount of land you're running).

Directly replacing one or the other is not the right thing because vial is like mana, but just not quite the same. In order to make room for it, you really do not have to give up much threat density at all in my opinion. Not having 2 (suboptimal) burn spells or 2 (suboptimal) bears probably isn't going to spell your doom more often than the times vial will help you.

Also, does anybody know how vial helps the aggro-loam matchup? I've thought about that matchup a lot and think that it's pretty hard to win. Their mana disruption is a pain for us, but vial might be able to help there.

[Guevera59]

@ 4eak

I really think that you may be convincing me. I definitely believe that Vial is at least worth the test. This would be an example list that I would run with Vial.


Creatures//24
4x Goyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Watchwolf
4x Kird Ape
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda/Grim Lavamancer
2x Woolly Thoctar

Spells//16
4x Aether Vial
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x PtE

Lands//20
4x Foothills
4x Heath
1x Mire
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains

I cut one land because a.) I tend to get mana flooded and B.) Vial. I cut Taiga because I tend to fetch for White/x sources more than other color combinations. I still don't like the idea of 4-5c lists. I have tested them and I tend to get manascrewed and in a big tournament, I think I would kill myself with inconsistency, much like D-Stompy. In a big tourny, I would undoubtedly run into Waste/Sink/Stifle.


That kind of attitude has been the bane of many would-be pros. It stifles innovation and prevents decks from getting better.


Loxodon said himself that he had tested 4-5c lists extensively in both Legacy and Extended. He said that they did not work and that they were inconsistent. What about this stifles innovation? He took the next step to a deck by adding (an)other color(s), it didn't work for hi, he moved on.

[Berzerked]

20 land + 4 Vial is too much, for sure. I've been getting landflooded in testing. 18 might be the right number. 10 fetches plus 1 of each dual (excluding UB and UW), is what I'm going to try out.

Ouch, I haven't tested against Aggro Loam but it seems like it would be a beating:
Chalice @ 1
Devastating Dreams (damn...)
Cheap fatties out of burn range
Seismic Assault
EE @ 1 or 2

Mana denial in the form of Wasteland seems to be the least of our problems. I'm not even sure Vial would help much. Does anyone have any testing results for this matchup?

[zulander]

20 land + 4 Vial is too much, for sure. I've been getting landflooded in testing. 18 might be the right number. 10 fetches plus 1 of each dual (excluding UB and UW), is what I'm going to try out.

Ouch, I haven't tested against Aggro Loam but it seems like it would be a beating:
Chalice @ 1
Devastating Dreams (damn...)
Cheap fatties out of burn range
Seismic Assault
EE @ 1 or 2

Mana denial in the form of Wasteland seems to be the least of our problems. I'm not even sure Vial would help much. Does anyone have any testing results for this matchup?

I have tested it using the RGW lists and it's not that bad. If you get some early beats than you can beat their loam engine. Make sure you keep a bolt in hand for when they play a crusher though, don't let them get him started or it's gonna be a long day. The best way I've found to beat them though was the opening of Nacatl, burn and goyf/thoctar.

[Valtrix]

Loxodon said himself that he had tested 4-5c lists extensively in both Legacy and Extended. He said that they did not work and that they were inconsistent. What about this stifles innovation? He took the next step to a deck by adding (an)other color(s), it didn't work for hi, he moved on.

Just because Loxodon says he's "tested" them "extensively" doesn't really mean a whole lot in my opinion. In fact, I have yet to see solid data either way weather or not many colors are good. Honestly, I don't think adding black just for 4 cards (confidant) makes the manabase much more inconsistent. For the power confidant gives alone it seems worth it in my opinion. He fills a crucial role needed in zoo, which is card advantage.

[Berzerked]

Hell ya, first turn Nacatl is crazy against everything. I've recently been having to Force them when playing against this deck, and that sucks.

Holding back Bolt doesn't turn me on, though. All they need is an untapped Wasteland/Fetch/land with cycle land in hand to completely nullify Bolt. And don't forget about a previously played Chalice @ 1. In fact, if they do get that down early, your basically out of the game, unless you happen to have a Pridemage in hand or close to the top of your library, and even then, they just have to keep you off W or G for a little while, while Crusher/Vore get completely out of hand.
Seems like the same strategy is needed as against combo: try to race, then lose...

@Valtrix: I agree completely.

[Guevera59]

Just because Loxodon says he's "tested" them "extensively" doesn't really mean a whole lot in my opinion. In fact, I have yet to see solid data either way weather or not many colors are good. Honestly, I don't think adding black just for 4 cards (confidant) makes the manabase much more inconsistent. For the power confidant gives alone it seems worth it in my opinion. He fills a crucial role needed in zoo, which is card advantage.

But what Arctic Sliver said was that this attitude "stifles innovation". No, it doesn't, he tested it personally, he didn't like it, he didn't like getting ruined by Waste. Also, adding black for Bob really does affect the mana base. You must play at least 1 Badlands, 1 Bayou, 1 Scrubland to reliably cast Bob. This means that each time you fetch, you must decide if you should get the black for Bob or the G/W/R for your Beaters. It is hard to be able to reliably cast each of your creatures with this 4th color. And once again, a single Wasteland is devastating.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I honestly just can't believe that anyone would question whether or not i've tested this deck and it's different variations.

Fetching is a pain in the ass with the 4 or 5 color versions, and in my opinion, through testing, you have to run more than 8 fetches to get your colors reliably. I suppose Aether Vial would help that though.

So i guess i better re-phrase what i'm trying to say. Aether Vial seems good in the 4 to 5 color lists, but not that great in RGW. I've been playing this deck for a really long time, and have been consistently top 8-ing with it in 30 person tourneys with mostly tier one decks being played. I've played against it all, and if you don't wanna believe that, then hey be ignorant it's your call.

Edit: Fetch basics against Aggro Loam. Bait out their Wastelands as well so you can cast your best spells. Chalice at 1 is a bitch though. And you pretty much have to RFG Terravore bc they can recur it.

[Yui]

I will just jump in the middle of the discussion.

There is 1 question is have, why do allot of people think that one wasteland would be devastating?
I have won so many times while my opponent played wasteland.
The deck play's 22 lands(atleast the build i play) there are so many way's to find your land. The decks that play wasteland can't affort to go waste x4 they will miss theire land/collors. They have to make a choice, miss critters or buisness while you have your 1/1,2/2 beating them to death.
With every fetch/land drop you can make one of your creature's bigger.
Fetching a pain in the ass? no, turn 1 and 2 are easy then you have the choice for which land you will fetch. Alway's as last minute you fetch the blue one.
8 fetches? 10 -12 is the right number for 5c no less.

The discussion about dark confidant. I swear with him. The choice to fetch for a scrub/badlands/bayou is alway's in turn 2? 3? not the first turn. He gives so much extra, in my build a bigger chance to get my vindicate/burn/removal or more beaters. He also has a body of 2/1.


@ 4eak

Loxodon said himself that he had tested 4-5c lists extensively in both Legacy and Extended. He said that they did not work and that they were inconsistent. What about this stifles innovation? He took the next step to a deck by adding (an)other color(s), it didn't work for hi, he moved on.

if the 4/5c didn't work etc why do i see so many 4/5c builds in the t8? I have played with allot of zoo decks, i really prefer the 5c build, also tested against the 3c build and its just not it. Maybe just like loxodon its a personal choice.
I like the "extra's" in 5c, the confidant/vindicate the extra damage from tribal flame.
There is one thing to remember, i think we are discussing 2 meta's, the Europe one and the American one? I some reply's i see people say dragon stompy etc etc, i think the last time i saw that deck was 3/4 year ago?

Then we have the discussion of Vail i planned on testing it today but i failed!
But what will you cut for vail. Land? burn? creature? none of these i want to cut. They are all really important in Zoo.

the discussion about Pridemage vs Trygon(atleast if you call it a discussion) allmost everybody say, trygon sucks pridemage rules!
In a Counterbalance rich meta, what do you prefer? The problem with pridemage in my opinion his cost is 2, the curve of CB decks is 1 - 2 and a little little little bit 3 then you have to sacrifice him.
Exalted what does it do in Zoo? the whole idea of exalted is to attack with one creature a time right? yeah you can win the goyf war! isn't that where you can use your burn for? I happily will trade a critter so i can swarm you to death?
Trygon has flying, does his trick every time he deals damage to a player. What decks play flying creature?

I hope a made some sense.

grtz, Yui

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ Yui: Your argument made some sense. I only want to make one statement, like sure the 4 or 5 color lists do well, but that's mostly in Europe ya know? I'm not insulting Europe's deckbuilding or Legacy Metagame, but i look at some lists on Deckcheck and ask myself, "How in the hell does this deck win?". European metagames seem so random...

I also dunno why Deckcheck posts little 7-11 man tourneys on there at all. I know this isn't the right thread to say this in, but it makes sense.

[from Cairo]

Just observations...


The deck play's 22 lands(atleast the build i play) there are so many way's to find your land. The decks that play wasteland can't affort to go waste x4 they will miss theire land/collors. They have to make a choice, miss critters or buisness while you have your 1/1,2/2 beating them to death.

22 is high compared to most lists that have been posted here. Not that its wrong, it definitely helps mitigate the argument of a poor/disruptable mana base, but just for reference most of the lists posted are 19-21. Also Wasting the Zoo player can definitely be a good play early; if they take out two colors while shrinking a Nacatl, it definitely sets Zoo back quite a bit. I mean it depends on both players' hands, but it can trip the Zoo player up quite a bit if they don't have their 3rd land drop, or draw a redundant dual and aren't able to cast an off color card.



With every fetch/land drop you can make one of your creature's bigger.
Fetching a pain in the ass? no, turn 1 and 2 are easy then you have the choice for which land you will fetch. Alway's as last minute you fetch the blue one.
8 fetches? 10 -12 is the right number for 5c no less.

Adding additional colors means there are more choices, so it inherently makes playing the deck more complex, and leaves more room for error (or for your choices to be capitalized on by an opponent with LD). For instance in the 3c version the mana base is very redundant, the 8 Green fetches can all grab any dual, and each can grab 2 different basics if needed, so if you'd really need a Plateau, you have 8-9 fetches and the 3 duals to access it. In the 5c versions you can still use any fetch to gain you access to the color you need, but if for instance you really want a Scrubland for Pridemage and Confidant, there are only going to be 5-6 fetches that can access that particular dual plus the dual itself.



The discussion about dark confidant. I swear with him. The choice to fetch for a scrub/badlands/bayou is alway's in turn 2? 3? not the first turn. He gives so much extra, in my build a bigger chance to get my vindicate/burn/removal or more beaters. He also has a body of 2/1.

This directly ties to the mana base thing above. He's definitely an amazing card, it's a personal preference if one is looking for more raw power, at the risk of color consistency and being more susceptible to LD. In this sense the 3c vs 5c debate sort of parallels the Nassif NLU vs Probasco NLU. Nassif's build, similar in principle to 5c Zoo, goes for splashing more colors and commits to fetching more early duals, for the pay off of playing the most powerful cards in each color and their combinations. Probasco's build, in this comparison similar to 3c, sacrifices some of the raw power cards, in order to ensure a consistent mana base and leave less room for opponents to capitalize on shutting down splash colors via LD.



if the 4/5c didn't work etc why do i see so many 4/5c builds in the t8? I have played with allot of zoo decks, i really prefer the 5c build, also tested against the 3c build and its just not it. Maybe just like loxodon its a personal choice.
I like the "extra's" in 5c, the confidant/vindicate the extra damage from tribal flame.
There is one thing to remember, i think we are discussing 2 meta's, the Europe one and the American one? I some reply's i see people say dragon stompy etc etc, i think the last time i saw that deck was 3/4 year ago?


Yea I agree, I think Metagame and again personal preference are the two contributing factors as to which build is better for a given player. If playing in a heavy mana disruption field or a more conservative player than the 3c version probably will work better for you. If you don't see as much mana disruption and are willing to risk those matches you do run into, then in the matches where you don't run into mana disruption you will likely have the more powerful deck.



Then we have the discussion of Vail i planned on testing it today but i failed!
But what will you cut for vail. Land? burn? creature? none of these i want to cut. They are all really important in Zoo.

The Vial thing I think it's really build dependent. In the 5c versions running more Fish(y) creatures I can see it's place, if you're playing for the midgame and are willing to take the early tempo hit for the mid game tempo boost I guess it works.

If you're playing the 3c versions that are closer to R/G Goyf Sligh with White cause Nacatl and Pridemage are redic. I think you really want to capitalize on the early game pressure of T1 Nacatl/Ape, and getting that swing in before most decks have blockers.



the discussion about Pridemage vs Trygon(atleast if you call it a discussion) allmost everybody say, trygon sucks pridemage rules!
In a Counterbalance rich meta, what do you prefer? The problem with pridemage in my opinion his cost is 2, the curve of CB decks is 1 - 2 and a little little little bit 3 then you have to sacrifice him.
Exalted what does it do in Zoo? the whole idea of exalted is to attack with one creature a time right? yeah you can win the goyf war! isn't that where you can use your burn for? I happily will trade a critter so i can swarm you to death?
Trygon has flying, does his trick every time he deals damage to a player. What decks play flying creature?


In 5c some combination of the 2 is probably good. Obviously in 3c there's only Pridemage. And even if there was a Trygon Predator I don't think it would fit 3c's game plan, Exalted is really good for buffing your Turn 1 guy, again an irrelevant play if you're casting Vial Turn 1. Also I like that Pridemage complements your burn as additional ways to trade your 1cc threats for larger blockers in the mid game if you need to clear the path. For instance an Exalted 3/4 Kird Ape attacking into a blocking Goyf then Lavamancing it out. If it means the following turn you can attack with Pridemage and a couple other guys, it helps supplement Path to Exile as ways to remove road blocks to your swarm.

[Arctic_Slicer]

You missed quite a few. Affinity, Counterslivers, Survival, Cephalid Breakfast, and while you mentioned it, you've not captured the value of it -- 30 million flavors of Fish (in all colors) abuse Vial. Zoo is Fish. Vial certainly isn't out of place.

The funny thing about Counterslivers (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4404) is that for a long time champions of the deck on this forum, Volt and Pinder, poo pooed the inclusion of Aether Vial in that deck. They kept this attitude until Pinder actually tested the card in preparation for Grand Prix Columbus and came out and said that "Aether Vial is retardedly good". Since then a new thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5500) has been made but this time the opening post now lists Aether Vial under "automatic maindeck cards" as a 4 of.

Volt and Pinder arguing against the inclusion of Aether Vial in counterslivers stifled innovation for quite some by preventing the deck from reaching it's full potential. Loxodon Baileyarch has said himself that he hasn't played with vial in this deck but seems certain that it's no good so he dismisses outright instead of actually playing with it. This is an attitude that will only serve to stifle innovation.

[Guevera59]

I guess a fair way to describe Loxodon's attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". He has had marginal success with his version and at the moment, he is perfectly happy with it.


I have come to understand that Vial is definitely worth testing. Also, has anyone considered Serra Avenger with the addition of Vial? Playing a 2-of Angel could allow for his drawback to be less relevant and one can Vial him in on turn 2. This deck has always needed some kind of evasion and if worst comes to worst, one can sit back with Pridemages and swing in with an exalted Serra. I don't think the WW cost is relevant because a) I generally fetch for Plateau/Savannah before Taiga and b) Vial cheats this cost.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Volt and Pinder arguing against the inclusion of Aether Vial in counterslivers stifled innovation for quite some by preventing the deck from reaching it's full potential. Loxodon Baileyarch has said himself that he hasn't played with vial in this deck but seems certain that it's no good so he dismisses outright instead of actually playing with it. This is an attitude that will only serve to stifle innovation.

You're not understanding what i'm saying. RGW just doesn't need Vial, it's that simple. RGW's manabase is very very good, and it hasn't shitted on me once. Sure you can flash dudes into play, but that's just cute is all that is. Sure you can make the argument that i can save mana for burn or activated abilities, but i just don't think it's worth it. The deck wins fine on it's own. Against Dragon Stompy, Stax, whatever prison deck.

I completely agree that, hey, Vial seems pretty good in 4c, 5c lists, but it just isn't necessary in straight up RGW.

[3duece]

Okay. This is my first crack at this deck so please alert me to any glaring weaknesses. If there are, I'm sorry. I'm a landstill player.

4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
2 isamaru, hound of konda
4 tarmogoyf
4 quasali pridemage
3 watchwolf
3 wooly thoctar

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lightning helix
4 fireblast

4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

I know the four fireblasts seem poor with the manabase but I figure you want to make sure to see it around turn 4 and with seven mountains and eight fetches I see no reason not to be able to cast two in a game.

[Guevera59]

It's just that Fireblast isn't necessary at all, especially as a 4-of. Zoo doesn't need a finisher and going balls to the wall isn't Zoo's style. If Fireblast is countered, you are beyond fucked. I'd rather see you play some combination of PtE or StP in that slot.

[3duece]

Ah, okay. That leads me to more questions, which I want to preface with the fact that I've already read the entire thread. :smile:

1. Swords to plowshares screws your tempo, I get that. But doesn't path to exile do the same? Isn't that just one more blue source/top spin with counterbalance active that this deck just doesn't need? How do folks feel about more burn in that slot? Either rift bolt or incinerate I'm guessing, out of which I would prefer incinerate.

2. What's the consensus this week on grim lavamancer? Seems good but does pridemage kind of take his spot as far as the goyf war winner? I still like him and this deck does fill the graveyard quickly, so what's people view on him now? He's also another out to bridge from below if you've no pridemage handy.

[e=mc^2]

The funny thing about Counterslivers (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4404) is that for a long time champions of the deck on this forum, Volt and Pinder, poo pooed the inclusion of Aether Vial in that deck. They kept this attitude until Pinder actually tested the card in preparation for Grand Prix Columbus and came out and said that "Aether Vial is retardedly good". Since then a new thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5500) has been made but this time the opening post now lists Aether Vial under "automatic maindeck cards" as a 4 of.

Volt and Pinder arguing against the inclusion of Aether Vial in counterslivers stifled innovation for quite some by preventing the deck from reaching it's full potential. Loxodon Baileyarch has said himself that he hasn't played with vial in this deck but seems certain that it's no good so he dismisses outright instead of actually playing with it. This is an attitude that will only serve to stifle innovation.

One of the reasons that Vial is so good in counterslivers is that all of the dudes cost 2, so there is only one number to st the Vial at. Slivers also have abilities, such as granting shroud, which are more relevent than being big when vialing in a dude.

Merfolk is another deck which uses vial. Like slivers the dudes have relevant abilities, like pump abilities from lords. Goblins gets similar utility out of vial.

Now I have not tested vial in zoo, but it would seem to me that zoo really wants to play a dude on turn 1 so that it can attack on turn 2, before the opponent can play a big dude like Goyf. The dudes in zoo follow a curve, so you would have to make choices about how many counters to leave on vial. Also, other than Pridemage RGW Zoo does not play any utility dudes or lords which would benefit your team by being played at instant speed.

[from Cairo]

1) I haven't found Path to Exile's citp tapped land to be that big of a tempo fuck. Vs. Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and Terravores and the like, I'd prefer they get a tapped Island/Forest, than 5+ life. I'm running 3.

2) Comparing my list to yours, I'm running Lavamancer in Isamaru's spot. I guess it probably means a few times when I'm going to be swinging for 1 less turn 2, but it also comes up a lot that I'd have an Ape or Nacatl I'd rather play turn 1 anyway. I'd rather have too many ways to win Goyf wars than not enough. It also sometimes just randomly gets there for the last 4ish pts, when ground is stalled, ala Cursed Scroll. I'm running 3 of him as well.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've used STP since i picked the deck up, and i just changed to PTE recently since it cost me like 5 games in one night. It's just so much better. You hardly ever use it unless it's your turn and you wanna attack. And if it's a kill shot, then it worked even better.

@ 3duece: Yeah the only thing i would suggest cutting from your list is Fireblast. It's really not necessary at all. I like Incinerate actually. If Chain start fucking with me too bad, i might add Incinerate. It's instant speed and gets rid of Spectral Lynx, which is being boarded in against me alot lately.

@ from Cairo: Yeah Isamaru is probably the next thing to be cut from the deck, i just can't bring myself to run Lavamancer though. I might actually add another Jitte. It's just that damned good. I could go -2 Isamaru, +1 Jitte, +1 Watchwolf, or something of the like.

[Valtrix]

1. Swords to plowshares screws your tempo, I get that. But doesn't path to exile do the same? Isn't that just one more blue source/top spin with counterbalance active that this deck just doesn't need? How do folks feel about more burn in that slot? Either rift bolt or incinerate I'm guessing, out of which I would prefer incinerate..

The main thing is that you just need answers to larger creatures that burn can't beat. You should know how many goyfs/tombstalkers/dreadnaughts are around. The life is not a drawback as much when you wouldn't be able to swing your creatures through an opponent's creature to begin with.

That said, I would recommend path over exile for many of the reasons stated. It helps their mana, but largely it doesn't matter; you'll probably kill them a full turn faster without them getting life. I also am a fan of running a combination of both to have a total greater than 4 sword effects, though I know people really like burn a lot.

@Loxodon: I think that the issue people are having is that you seem to be completely unopen to ideas or even discussion for zoo. To me at least it seems as if you were here at the start of the thread and as such have assumed ownership of the thread. That is, almost everything you think about zoo is right. (Although most the time I feel that your posts have little actual argumentation in them besides you staying your opinion.) I don't want to turn this thread into flames, I apologize if I'm being a little blunt, and I don't question that you've played the deck. However, this is the impression that I've gotten from you thus far and I think many other people expressing frustration probably feel the same way.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ Valtrix: I don't own this thread, i just post in it alot. I make valid points every step of the way. Sure i may be a dick at times, but i make points. Just because someone else is better with words doesn't mean their right, and i feel like that's most of what this whole website is. People just bicker back and forth and then they start using big words trying to make themselves look good to the e-vironment instead of going straight to the issue. You people say i put little thought into my posts, it's just because i get straight to the point. It something seems bad, i'm gonna say it. I always get the argument over whether or not it's tested. I don't have time to sit around all day just to test Aether Vial in RGW Zoo. Sure it might help me out in a few situations, but at the end of the day, i know 100% that the deck is better without it. You all make fine points, but hey, i agree, Aether Vial is a good card. I don't doubt what it does or what it has done for you, i just don't understand how you anyone could think it's better for the RGW lists. And i could care less if people get frustrated. This deck has been assembled with the best cards it could be assembled by. The deck has a collective card pool, and dipping outside of it doesn't make sense to me.

[3duece]

Oh, also another question. Mogg Fanatic? I really like him and I often find him a pain in the ass to play against. How come more people don't run him around here?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Oh, also another question. Mogg Fanatic? I really like him and I often find him a pain in the ass to play against. How come more people don't run him around here?

He doesn't deal enough damage over the long run is the reason why i don't run him. Everything in my build is 2/2 or bigger. Mogg Fanatic is good against Dredge, and i could see him being ran in a more burn heavy list to squeeze out the unblockable little points of your opponent's life. He reminds me of like a Bee Sting creature lol.

[Patrunkenphat7]

This thread is extremely vague. It is important to remember that it's only a DTB because of this; the statistics that give 'Zoo' its winning percentages are not from one person's narrow list. Different types of Zoo are certainly viable, and we should all remember this when discussing what 'works' and what 'doesn't work'. That's just my 5 cents.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

This thread is extremely vague. It is important to remember that it's only a DTB because of this; the statistics that give 'Zoo' its winning percentages are not from one person's narrow list. Different types of Zoo are certainly viable, and we should all remember this when discussing what 'works' and what 'doesn't work'. That's just my 5 cents.

The opening post is also RGW too. I would assume people would read the opening thread before hopping into discussions. If they wanted to make this an, every color of Zoo thread, i think they would have. They did it with Tempo Thresh and Countertop.

[Berzerked]

Ok, so the current list I'm testing with much success is on post #396. I've been getting land flooded too often, so to start out with, I'm dropping a Savannah. That leaves me with the hard decision of what single spell to add. Here's what I've been torn over:

- 4th Pridemage. I'm not sure this is necessary with Trygon around.

- Doran. Semi-prohibitive cost, but nothing 10 fetches and 4 Vials can't handle. As a bonus he also makes Ape, Goyf, and Trygon hit harder.

- Krosan Grip. Not much explanation necessary here. Again, might not be necessary with Pridemage and Trygon.

- Jund Charm. Or any of the Charms for that matter, though I feel Jund would have the most to offer. 2 damage to my own Bob/Sculler isn't too hot, though.

- Planeswalker. In particular Sarkhan, either Ajani, Elspeth, or Garruk. Could be interesting.

- Figure of Destiny/Isamaru. Eh.

- StP/PtE. Eh.

- Teeg/Grunt. Eh.

- Anything else. I'm open to suggestions.

I'm leaning more towards Doran or Sarkhan (his + ability seems to be most relevant to Zoo's general gameplan, and his - and ultimate aren't too shabby either).

Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!

Be more open seriously! Total joke btw.

And que deletion of post for not being relevant!

[Jak]

The opening post is also RGW too. I would assume people would read the opening thread before hopping into discussions. If they wanted to make this an, every color of Zoo thread, i think they would have. They did it with Tempo Thresh and Countertop.

They changed the thread title for a reason...

Seriously, Zoo has been successful with a number of good versions. Your list shouldn't be set in stone and you should turn down every card that isn't in your list because you "don't like it".

[Berzerked]

Be more open seriously! Total joke btw.

And que deletion of post for not being relevant!

So no suggestions?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

They changed the thread title for a reason...

Seriously, Zoo has been successful with a number of good versions. Your list shouldn't be set in stone and you should turn down every card that isn't in your list because you "don't like it".

If you'll look back a few pages, you'll notice i just changed my list a week ago. I also admitted a few pages back, that Aether Vial seemed like a fine choice for versions of this deck. I don't turn down every card that isn't in my list, and when i do i make points as to why i do. So seriously, it's ok.

@ berserked: I don't really know 5c lists as well as i do RGW. I wouldn't run a combination of Trygon and Pridemage though. Teeg is awesome maindeck or Sideboard whichever. I ran him main for a while. PTE, and you already know why. Planeswalkers cost 4 mana or more and you can't Vial them, and you might not hit 4 land every game, so no to them lol.

[Berzerked]

About Trygon + Pridemage, people tell me not to do it all the time, but I consistently love the combo (second favorite only to Goyf + Confidant :tongue: , so you see, I'm stuck playing 5c) and I'm almost always happy to see either one or both. Plus I like the fact that Trygon has evasion.

You know I didn't even consider that fact that you can't Vial Plansewalkers. I obviously know this, but I guess it slipped my mind with all my current testing with Noble Hierarch and Elspeth in NQGw. Vial =/= mana :rolleyes:

Well, since you tried, I might as well post my RGW so you can get some action.

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

56 cards. I'm going to test Vial just so I can prove to myself, at least, that it isn't worth it in 3c.
Other than that, what would you suggest I test in those slots? 2/2 Jitte/Scroll? Are you still backing Scroll?
I'll try PtE, though I'm going to maintain the mentality that I won't like it. We'll see.
I agree that Isamaru is weak, and he'd be long gone if I thought there was anything better to replace him with. I have tested Lavamancer, and have not liked him at all.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

About Trygon + Pridemage, people tell me not to do it all the time, but I consistently love the combo (second favorite only to Goyf + Confidant :tongue: , so you see, I'm stuck playing 5c) and I'm almost always happy to see either one or both. Plus I like the fact that Trygon has evasion.

You know I didn't even consider that fact that you can't Vial Plansewalkers. I obviously know this, but I guess it slipped my mind with all my current testing with Noble Hierarch and Elspeth in NQGw. Vial =/= mana :rolleyes:

Well, since you tried, I might as well post my RGW so you can get some action.

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

56 cards. I'm going to test Vial just so I can prove to myself, at least, that it isn't worth it in 3c.
Other than that, what would you suggest I test in those slots? 2/2 Jitte/Scroll? Are you still backing Scroll?
I'll try PtE, though I'm going to maintain the mentality that I won't like it. We'll see.
I agree that Isamaru is weak, and he'd be long gone if I thought there was anything better to replace him with. I have tested Lavamancer, and have not liked him at all.
You're list is similar to the one i solemnly swear by, mine.

Yeah i've searched the Gatherer for a replacement for Isamaru and there just isn't one at the moment. I am backing Scroll, despite the fact that i don't use it anymore. I wanted to change it up a little, so i did. It's won me alot of games, and just squeezes in the little amounts of damage the deck needs when it's in hopeless late-game mode. It makes it more consistent.

Jitte is a must run in my opinion. It's like Bob, everytime i land it and it's unanswered it wins me the game. Hands down. I ramped it up to 12 last week!!!

PTE was just an answer to my prayers in terms of the replacement for STP. I've advocated STP, then slowly started moving towards PTE. It makes the deck fast in the sense that, hey they don't gain 5 life, bc STP is essentially a time walk because you have to have 2 attack steps to make up for the life.

[Joon]

Have you guys thought about Skyshroud Elite in the Isamaru slot? More conditional than Isamaru but at least Kird Ape size.

[Dessyreqt]

Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!

I really like that list, and I noticed you mentioned trying Magma Jet if you get manaflooded, did that not work out for you?

[Berzerked]

Thanks. Magma Jet is one of those cards I want to play a full set of, so I'm going to test -1 land for Doran, then if I keep getting flooded, I'll probably drop a Mire, the Doran (unless it turns out to be good enough to warrant dropping something else, though as a singleton, I doubt it), a Vindicate and a Sculler for the set of Jets.

Edit: Oh, and about Skyshroud, I just don't like his conditionality, especially with more and more decks able to fetch basics in an attempt to fight Wasteland and Moons. I feel like Isamaru is just better, and I would need to go up to 3 copies of him before adding Skyshroud (which is completely unecessary now that we have Nacatl).
That being said, one of the reasons I like Ape so much is his ass of 3, so I might as well test Skyshroud while I'm at it anyway.

[Dessyreqt]

@Berzerked: What are your thoughts of taking your original list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=347670&postcount=396) and changing it as so:

-2 Windswept Heath
-1 Savannah

+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Bayou

Swapping out the Savannah for the Bayou because black is slightly more dominant (and important, imo) than white in your list (4 Confidant vs. 3 Pridemage) and dropping the fetchlands for Jitte. I realize that it's already on top of so much other removal, but Jitte does several important other things:
1. Speeds up your clock considerably.
2. Helps offset Bob damage (in case there's a ground stall for whatever reason)
3. Kills enemy Jittes.

Seems good to me, but I haven't been able to test your list yet. Have you tried it yet?

[ScatmanX]

Just to give sme perspective in the color build discussion, in the goblin thread, we have no dificulties discussing MonoRed, Rb, Rg, Rbg and Rw, all in the same thread, because the deck focus doesen't change. Guss taht in here is kind of the same situation.
If someone posted a Food-Chain Goblins deck, it would belong to a diferent thread, becouse it has a diferent focus.
So I guess you have to stay open to every color.

[Guevera59]

For those trying the 4c-5c, have you considered Putrid Leech?

[Berzerked]

@Berzerked: Seems good to me, but I haven't been able to test your list yet. Have you tried it yet?

I have not tested Jitte in 4-5c yet, and I'm currently in the process of testing it in 3c, so we'll see how I like it there.

Here's the color breakdown for that list:
W: 10 (4)
U: 2
B: 11
R: 12 (4)
G: 13 (4)

In parentheses are requirements for Ape and Nacatl.
As you can see, G is my most needed color, closely followed by R. That explains the 2 Taiga.
Superficially, B seems to be the next most needed, but if you count Nacatl's requirements, W is more needed. This was my logic when turning my manabase. Now, it may be that realistically B is more needed, but I haven't run into that problem yet.
As far as dropping 2 Heaths, no, they fetch everything except Badlands and Volcanic Island. Mire doesn't fetch Tropical and Savannah. If I were to drop a Savannah (which I would if reducing landcount), I can't drop a fetch that grabs it. So, I'd have to drop 1 Mire and 1 Savannah if I were to drop to 18 land. Both Heath and Mire fetch Bayou if I were to replace Savannah with Bayou, so I'd rather have Heath.

I do like the idea of Jitte, though, and will definitely try that out if I go to 18.

[Valtrix]

I have a question about the five color lists...It seems like the only thing that people use blue for is tribal flames, and trygon predator. I was just wondering if those two cards are really worth adding blue to the mix. It seems that pridemage nearly obsoletes predator, and that it seems like too much effort to try and set up a 5-damage tribal flames.

[Guevera59]

Exactly Valtrix, it's not worth it to open yourself to land hate/inconsistencies for such little reward.

[joey223]

i agree it does seem to wreck the mana base for just that 1 card.why not just run price of progress?it will do more damage to your opp. than you most of the time.

and what is the verdict on wasteland?
is it worth squeezing in?

[Guevera59]

I agree with you on PoP. I'm personally testing it but don't bring it up again. It's been discussed numerous times and we have some impatient folks on this here Zoo thread. Its just personal preference.

As for Wasteland, it seems poor. I haven't tested it but I feel as if all the lnads should produce colored mana for Ape and Nacatl. I wouldn't want to cut fetches and I definitely won't wanna cut threats.

[Valtrix]

Well, I think that it might be useful to narrow the debate down, if possible. It seems that there is a large argument of 3c vs. 4-5c. People are lumping 5c and 4c together, but I think that the two are way different, in terms of consistency (and somewhat cards). In that respect I would agree that 3c is better than 5c for sure, but I think it becomes a lot less clear when you're not splashing for much at all (ie, just confidant). I know the debate has been hashed out quite a bit, but I'd just like to point out that I think there needs to be a distinction between the two, because 4c is not nearly the same as 5c, and 4c is (usually) hardly different than 3c at all.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I have a question about the five color lists...It seems like the only thing that people use blue for is tribal flames, and trygon predator. I was just wondering if those two cards are really worth adding blue to the mix. It seems that pridemage nearly obsoletes predator, and that it seems like too much effort to try and set up a 5-damage tribal flames.

I play a singleton Tropical Island to boost Tribal Flames, Gaea's Might and Might of Alara. The domain pump spells cost 1 mana but can deal 5 damage so long as you have a creature to benefit from it. Also it means you have a way to kill fatties such as Tarmogoyf without having to resort to things like Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. The pump spells are also really good with double strikers such as Viashino Slaughtermaster and Boros Swiftblade. Jitte is great here as well as the double strikers deal combat damage twice resulting in twice the number of counters put on Umezawa's Jitte.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm not really trying 4c right now, but yeah, putrid leech seems like it wouldn't be bad against a lot of the good decks right now. When you're the aggressor, it is a 4/4 body, and if a blue deck takes it, that's fine since they'll have to pay life to make it useful, which is exactly what you want them to do.

[Valtrix]

I've been playing with vial a bit, and I'm really starting to like it. EOT creatures is pretty great, and it's been helping a lot against blue.

So, I have a question for vial supporters: How many do you think is the right number? I've been discussing with one of my friends a bit, and he thinks that 3 seems better than 4. The reasoning is that we really don't need vial, even if it helps us. We can still have incredible starts without it, so it's not a necessity that we have to have it right away. By not running that 4th, we don't have to worry so much about drawing a second one and having it be a dead draw. (Because vial is really dead to us in multiples, unless you're facing heavy land-hate and need one at 1 and 2 for some reason.)

I guess I'm not exactly sure what I think about that. I guess I see the reasoning, but I feel like if we're running vial that we probably want the maximum of it, so that we can use it more often, but at the same time we're not able to abuse it quite as much, so it seems less vital to have the max. Also, I almost feel that 3 vials could swap out straight for lands if you're running 20 or 21 lands (maybe not quite 20...), which would mean we wouldn't even have to find something else to cut.

Will keep testing...

[Arctic_Slicer]

I run the allowed 4 of. Turn one Aether Vial is one of the strongest plays you can make in legacy and can often win you the game against certain decks. What you cut for the vial is up to you but most likely it will be something like 1-2 lands and 2-3 non-creature spells. Aether Vial works kind of like a mana accelerator so you can cut maybe one land for every two vials you put into your deck so you'll be running 18-19 lands instead of the usual 20-21. To make room for the other 2-3 vials you don't want to cut creatures as the vial only works on creatures so you cut 2-3 copies of your weakest other spells.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Exactly Valtrix, it's not worth it to open yourself to land hate/inconsistencies for such little reward.

Amen.

@ joey223: Wasteland seems terrible. I know, here i go again dismissing cards. But in a deck where you need land types to make your dudes good, it doesn't seem good at all. I'm surprised that Brian Six guy did well with 3 random Wastelands just chilling. I guess bc his build was more Goyf Sligh-ish burn..

@ Guevera59: If i ever ran black in my build, i would run the hell out of Putrid Leech. He seems amazing. I haven't tested him, but 4/4s for 2 are good right?

[4eak]

I think Putrid Leech + Fetchlands + Dark Confidant is a lot of lifeloss. If I had to cut one, Putrid Leech would be the first to go. Look at the power of the other two drops in this deck. Putrid Leech isn't in the same league imho.




peace,
4eak

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

But then again, i don't like Dark Confidant.

[B is for Big Job]

if youre smart and play helix, lifeloss doesnt really matter and most of the time youre usually ahead on damage so the risk is worth the reward. im with lox on this one, I like bob, just not in this deck. In mine i play TS so bob is no go.

[hungryLIKEALION]

This is the list I anticipate running at the lotus tournament I'm playing in this Sunday, with minor changes:

// Lands
2 [U] Savannah
3 [A] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [US] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [AN] Kird Ape
2 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [CNF] Volcanic Fallout

+1 Savannah, +1 Stomping Ground, -2 Taiga

The sadness of card limitations is very real :(

I'm also considering cutting another land. 20 seems to get my flooded occasionally. Also, I just lost a match to the worst faeries deck ever because I drew 9 lands in my top 20 cards... this guy was horrible, I even got him to pop his own standstill and still lost due to flood. -_-

[Arctic_Slicer]

You only have two spells in your whole deck that cost more than two mana(Knight of the Reliquary). With 4 Aether Vials you probably only need 18 land, maybe 19 tops. In the extra slots I would probably run Umezawa's Jitte but if you don't have that card then extra creatures is probably fine.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I do have 2 jittes. I had them in the side, but I'll try them main I guess. They do seem good against pretty much every deck, so why not.

for the two lands to cut, 1 savannah and 1 bloodstained mire, or what?

[joey223]

hello zoo thread!

question for all.

what would be the best list without goyf and what colors?

and if we are not running goyf in RGW,what would be a good replacement?
i was thinking epochrasite but it may be too slow.

i ask because a buddy is going out of town with my goyfs.

thanks.



@hungry:
i would drop 1 mire and 1 plateau. hope that helps

[hungryLIKEALION]

What I used to do when I didn't have goyfs was add more non-green spells and play Quirion Dryad. That's the best advice I can come up with.

[umbowta]

hello zoo thread!

question for all.

what would be the best list without goyf and what colors?

and if we are not running goyf in RGW,what would be a good replacement?
i was thinking epochrasite but it may be too slow.

i ask because a buddy is going out of town with my goyfs.

thanks.



@hungry:
i would drop 1 mire and 1 plateau. hope that helps
Without goyf you go back to GRW Jank, now with more cats. I'd try it first like this, paying attention to whether or not StP or PtE might be needed.

4 foothills
4 heath
bloodstained
4 taiga
3 plateau
2 savannah
mountain
forest
plains

4 nacatyl
4 kird ape
2 isamaru
3 lavamancer
4 pridemage
4 wild mongrel

4 lightning bolt
4 chain
4 helix
3 fireblast
2 cursed scroll/jitte

[kicks_422]

Would Mongrels really be necessary? Why not Thoctars?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Mongrels fuel lavamancers which is okay I guess.

[b4r0n]

I just split the finals of the DHG Mox tournament (32 players) with Zoo. This was my list:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Volcanic Fallout

Quick tournament report and some thoughts on the deck:

Round 1: ANT/TES hybrid
Game 1: I get a slow start, but he's tight on mana and I end up killing him with 2 Woolly Thoctars while I'm at 1 life. Fun fact: playing against combo was the only time all day that Thoctar was relevant. Who would have thought.
Sideboarding: -4 Path to Exile, -2 Thoctar, +3 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Relic
Game 2: I get triple Nacatl. He gets a bad Diminishing Returns. Rough.

Round 2: U/B Combo-Control (Leyline/Helm and Stifle-Nought)
Game 1: I get pretty solid start, but he EEs away my Pridemage and Intuitions for Dreadnoughts. I can't find a Path or a Qasali in time, and barely lose the damage race.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoctar, -3 Lightning Helix, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Gaddock Teeg
Game 2: He starts with a Leyline in play. I get in some early beats with Nacatl, then he drops a Web of Inertia (yeah, look that up). Anyways, I keep throwing burn at the dome and bring him down to 6ish before he drops a Dreadnought. He gets one swing in, but I find the Grip, blow his Web, and alpha strike with Nacatls for the win.
Game 3: I get a stupidly fast start with Nacatl and Pridemage and blow him out.

Round 3: LEDless Ichorid (piloted by Jaynel, my brother)
We discuss drawing, but decide that it's better for one of us to scoop to the other. He feels like he has a better shot to win out, so he scoops me into top 8.

Round 4: ID

Round 5: ID

I make top 8 as the 7th seed at 3-0-2. Jaynel loses to Counterslivers in the last round, and barely misses out on top 8 on breakers.

Top 8: Counterslivers (Ugw) (same list that knocked out Jaynel)
Game 1: I get a solid start, and deal 10+ damage to him before he stabilizes the board with Crystalline Sliver and pump slivers. However, by that point a Price of Progress + Lightning Bolt is lethal. He doesn't have the countermagic for it.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoctar, -2 Path to Exile, -1 Lightning Helix, +3 Volcanic Fallout, +2 Umezawa's Jitte
Game 2: I get another solid start and deal a lot of damage quickly. Price + Helix is lethal again.

Top 4: Dreadstill (Ur) (piloted by Roodmistah)
Game 1: He Stifles an early fetch which slows me down a lot. He soon drops a Dreadnought, and has the Force for my Path.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoctar, -3 Lightning Helix, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Volcanic Fallout
Game 2: He gets stuck on 1 land while I draw tons of land. All I need is a single Nacatl to go the distance.
Game 3: I mull to 6 and keep a land-light hand. However, he drops a Standstill turn 2, so we play draw go for a while. I build up my manabase and have a great hand by the time he finds a Factory to start the beats. I Jet Rodney on his end step, breaking his Standstill, then Fallout his Factory. On my turn, I play a Qasali. He Clasms it on his turn and drops a Counterbalance. I play another Qasali, which gets Snared, but my Nacatl, Price of Progress, and 6/7 Goyf all resolve. He plays a Dreadnought and a Standstill on his turn, with a 1cc floating on top. I pop his Standstill with a Path on his endstep, clearing away the 1cc spell, then play a second Path on my turn and swing for the win.

Top 2: Eva Green
I consider playing it out, as I think the matchup is pretty favorable for me. However, I haven't really played it before, so I err on the side of caution and accept a split for $100 cash.

A few thoughts on the deck:

1. Combo seems unwinnable without devoting a lot of space to the matchup. My plan was to either dodge combo or just take the loss like a champ. I figured that with the amount of Counterbalances floating around, there wouldn't be a high number of people playing combo and/or they would just lose to the Counterbalances. I still feel like this is the right approach.

2. Every single time I got a turn 1 Nacatl I won. Also, Qasali Pridemage is the NUTS. That card is just so good.

3. Path to Exile is also incredible. I feel like it's absolutely necessary in order to deal with Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, and Coatls, and I would never run less than 4.

4. Thoctar is really underwhelming. It never had a significant impact in game 1 (except against combo...), and I boarded it out in every game 2. Still, I'm not sure what to replace it with, as it's a pretty hefty beater when it resolves and it seems really good in the mirror. I'm considering dropping the 2 Thoctars and a burn spell for 3 Grim Lavamancers, but we'll see.

5. I was pretty happy with the sideboard. I think the Relics, Fallouts, Grips, and Jittes are all necessities. Gaddock Teegs were meant to combat Landstill, but I never got the chance to use them for that. I might try out something else in that slot (maybe Choke?). Also, I think I'm going to find room for the 4th PoP in the board (probably over the 4th Relic).

[Guevera59]

Congratulations b4r0n. How were the PoP's? Was the life loss ever significant? Were you hesitant to play them when you had so many duals/did you fetch basics to avoid the damage? And, did you ever wish that they could hit creatures?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Hey. I just got 6th in a lotus tournament at The Portal in Bethlehem PA playing Zoo. I'll post my tournament report some time tonight.

I went 4-1 in the swiss, beating Death and Taxes, Counterbalance, Goyf sligh, and Goblins and losing to Counterbalance. In the top 8 I lost to Basic Land Rock. It was horrible and I certainly should have won but my deck crapped out on me. Better luck next time I guess.

Still, 6th was good. Here was my list:

// Lands
2 [U] Savannah
2 [A] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [US] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [AN] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [4E] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Full tournament report later...

Edit//So, here's the report.

Before the tournament my list was pretty much as it was here, but I had skyshroud elites and more maindeck jittes instead of Price of Progress and Knights of the Reliquary. I decided to make the switch to PoP upon seeing b4r0n's list, actually. The Knights I put back in mostly because I wanted a three drop that wasn't wooly thoctar and Knight has test positively for me before.

I got to the site pretty early and saw a lot of landstill, so that's why I put winter orbs in my sideboard. The first round started at 1.

Round 1-Joe playing Death and Taxes

Game one I open on nacatl and hit him with it while playing other big guys, and he can't really get his tricks online it time. I path mangara and use lavamancer to leave only 1 card in each graveyard, forcing him to sacrifice jotun grunt.
Game two I open on vial and make some quick dudes, and burn his blockers again. PoP is mostly dead here.

SBing:-3 Price of Progress, -1 Tarmogoyf +1 Jitte +3 Pyroclasm

Round 2-Luke playing 4c CounterTop

I was pretty annoyed to play against Luke since he was my testing partner for the event and had lent me pretty much my entire mana base. We discussed drawing but ended up deciding to play it out.

I keep a hand with plateau, plains, and mountain in game 1 with a kird ape and tarmogoyf in hand. I don't draw a forest until late in the game, so my ape doesn't get much damage in and my goyf just sits in my hand until I eventually run it in to counterbalance. I lose.
Game two I drop really quick beats and he plays chill, but I just sit under the chill and lavamancer him out despite being stuck on two lands.

Game three I just don't have enough gas and counterbalance fucks my christmas.

SBing:-4 Tarmogoyf, -2 Knight of the reliquary, +3 Relic of Progenitus, +3 Krosan Grip

Should probably quick explain my SB strategy here. when playing against blue goyf decks with sowers and shackles and such, I like to take out my own goyfs and knights and bring in relics. That way if one of my guys gets stolen I can just run it over with my other guys pretty much every time, and they can't steal my goyfs and fuck my day with it. I can also keep their goyfs small (sometimes even 0/1s!) with relic and lavamancer, so I can continue the beats with my 3/3s and 2/3s. In my testing, this has been the best way to approach these matches for me.

Round 3-Evan playing 4c CounterTop
Game 1 I keep a hanf with two aether vials and some burn. He doesn't have a ton of action besides a top and I get him pretty low before he plays shackles and takes my kird ape. He stifles a lavamancer activation that would be lethal, so I have to find 2 more cards to put in my yard so I can kill him. I topdeck a fetchland and then a PoP. I cast the PoP but he counters it, so I just lavamancer him out.
SBing:same as round 2.
Game 2 I think I led on Vial again and made like an ape and a lavamancer +nacatl off vial if I remember correctly. I played some lightning helixes and he couldn't stabilize.

Round 4-Matt playing GoyfSligh
Wasn't really hoping to play this match up, but here we are.
Game 1 I keep a hand with vial and a lot of burn but don't draw any creatures. I fetch for all basics since I have PoP in hand, and after the match I learn he had two of his own in his hand. I burn his early creatures, but when I draw none of my own, I succumb to his onslaught.

Game 2 I keep a creature heavy hand and our roles are reversed. I make turn 1 Nacatl, he bolts it. I make Goyf, he makes Jitte, I make my own Jitte and Kird Ape and he can't get back in it.

Game 3 he gets stuck on one land for a few turns and I just bash him hard. Such is magic.

SBing:-4 Aether Vial, +1 Jitte, +3 Gaddock Teeg (Since he has Fireblast, and just since I want more guys.

Round 5-Joe(I think it was Joe >_> I only wrote J.) Playing Goblins
Game 1 we both have really weak hands but I manage to burn his lackey and warchief and eventually get there with pridemage and an 8-point PoP.
SBing:-4 Aether Vial, +3 Pyroclasm, +1 Jitte
Game 2 I have a beautiful hand but only 1 land, a taiga. I lead on Ape and he wastes my land. I draw a fetch and play it but don't crack it, and then get a second fetch off the top. I crack both for my basic forest and mountain and clasm his lackey and warchief and swing with my ape. I start dropping goyfs-three in a row, after using pridemage to destroy a vial when I hit a third fetch (I get my basic plains.) He uses Pyrokinesis on my first 3/4 goyf with sorcery, artifact, and creature in the yards. I don't realize Goyf becomes 4/5 until the following turn when I drop the second Goyf. I call the Judge but he says we can't go back since a turn has gone by. I'm a sad panda. :( I win anyway.

Top 8, I play against a fucking awful Rock deck that somehow made it 3-1-1. Game one I dominate him with removal for his blockers and a nacatl, Goyf, Knight curve. Game two I mull to six and keep a decent hand but don't get there on the draw. I over extend into Deed unfortunately.

Game three I keep 1 land with several 1 drops, a goyf, and a Relic, but don't see a second land for 7 turns. Them's the breaks. If I had curved out he wouldn't have stood a chance.

SBing:-1 Path, -1 Helix, -3 Aether Vial, +2 Winter Orb, +3 Relic of Progenitus.

So I end the day 4-2 and with 3 draft sets to my name. Kinda lame prize support for $25 but it's better than nothing I guess.

Anyway, the deck played great for the most part. I know I really backed Vial in this thread as a maindeck card, but I played far less blue today than I thought I would. If I played this deck again I think I'd put Vial in my board in favor of more dudes main or more burn. I kinda like the thought of playing Chain Lightning. PoP was great. I did fetch for Basics a lot after my first 2-3 lands, or even all basics in some scenarios, but the life loss from it was never really a problem for me. It was pretty stellar every time I cast it, even though it rarely resolved. There were a lot of games where it was lethal and the blue deck had to expend its resources to stop it.

Knight of the Reliquary is a house, and I will always reccomend him over Wooly Thoctar if you want a 3 drop. He doesn't get hit by hydroblast or Chill, and he is absolutely huge. If you end up in a stand off, he makes it much easier to win by thinning out your deck while becoming absolutely monstrous. And in corner cases, he can fix your mana, or pretty much infinitely fuel your lavamancers. If you've been finding Thoctar lacking but still want a three drop like I have, I can't reccomend Knight enough.

Well, I guess that's all. Thanks for reading.

[AngryTroll]

With these (mostly) standardized GRW lists with Pridemage and friends, it's probably a relevant question again (last time this was discussed was long before Pridemage and the current builds):

Is Figure of Destiny better than Kird Ape? Our team tested Goyf Sligh, and we came to the conclusion that it was a fair amount better than Ape, although most people seemed to come to the opposite conclusion.

Wild Necatl is easily the best one drop, but Figure seems slightly better than Kird Ape, which is better than Skyshroud Elite. Grim Lavamancer falls in there somewhere around Figure, probably. I'd probably take B4RON's exact list (congrats on the finish), and go -4 Kird Ape, -2 Thoctar; +4 Figure, +2 Grim Lavamancer (or 3/3 split). Of course, I didn't just split for first, though.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I haven't tested figure in a long time, but I'd be willing to try it out again, even though I do like Kird Ape quite a bit. Lavamancer is definitely awesome though.

[eq.firemind]

Hey everyone, what do you think about Rancor? I remember it was used in some zoo/sligh decks some time ago before Nacatl and Pridemage were printed to add the needed power and some kind of 'evasion'. And now turn 2 5/3 attacking Nacatl looks very cool!

hungryLIKEALION, congratz on finish and nice report.
How do you feel about SB Winter Orb? I like the card very much, but just can't think a way to use it in Legacy...
Knight of the Reliqary? Hmm... Need to test this one 'cause I seek the replacement for Thoctar... And she has some little synergy with Fireblast I already want to fit in...

I spent some more time testing Vial and I came to Price of Progress too.
Every card's abilities must be used on full power, but Zoo already has very low curve and is not mana-intensive (like, say, Goblins or Merfolks or VialSurvival), so one of Vial's main ability, manacheating, is deemed alot. To compensate that, I tried to maximize mana stability to laugh on Waslands (alot of theese in my meta) and other nonbasic hate.
The other thing I didn't like about Vial was the need to cut burn, so why don't just run more devastating burn? Price of Progress fits perfect. I even think about 2 Fireblasts somewhere here 'cause with Vial in play I can sac my lands and still throw my dudes in battle.
And Figure of Destiny needs a try in my Vial list too to give me more things to do with my mana.

That's all for now, as usual, need more testing... :wink:

[hungryLIKEALION]

I threw the winter orbs on my board because I saw several people were playing landstill when I showed up to the tournament site, but I only ever sided them in once and that was against the stupid rock deck I played in top 8, and I didn't draw them against him, so...

I really don't know. ;p

Price rocked though, and I am now considering shifting vials to the SB in favor of more burn.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I actually like the idea of KoTR in place of Thoctar. I don't run Lavamancer either, and it just seems good. And in the face of those pesky Wastelands i'm so scared of, it makes the card seem even better. And i run 9 fetches so he could get huge. And oh how i love basics! It can fetch those too. I don't wanna have to get him in foil though... haha.

I'm glad the whole Vial debate is settling down. I got on here to make some points a few days ago, but you folks had already done that for me! Thanks.

@ AngryTroll: I couldn't see ever cutting Ape. I tested FoD when i first picked up the deck, and i hardly ever made him a 4/4, and when i did it was irrelevant. He usually stayed a 2/2 bc i wanted to do other stuff with my mana. I could see cutting Isamaru for FoD though.

[Volt]

@ AngryTroll: I couldn't see ever cutting Ape. I tested FoD when i first picked up the deck, and i hardly ever made him a 4/4, and when i did it was irrelevant. He usually stayed a 2/2 bc i wanted to do other stuff with my mana. I could see cutting Isamaru for FoD though.

I tested FoD a while back and became pretty convinced that it was better than Kird Ape. I was running 20 lands, though.

[eq.firemind]

Here's the Vial list I'm testing right now (It has many in common with hungryLIKEALION's):

1 Savannah
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Wooded Woothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mouintain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
2 Kird Ape - pretty solid, 3 ass is good when I side in Pyroclasm
2 Figure of Destiny - to spend my Vial-saved mana.
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary - was Thoctar, but she looks pretty good...

4 Aether Vial

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning - can be Helix, but I don't want too many white
2 Rancor - To speed up the deck even more. I also had nice win against Humility bashing with 3/1 dudes.
3 Path to Exile - the deck has Rancor & burn to ignore creatures, so only 3 of theese. Also less white is good.
3 Price of Progress - I like good burn
2 Fireblast - I like more good burn

SB:
3 Krosan Grip - Maybe 3 Ancient Grudge here? The deck kills very fast, so Deed/Humility/Survival engine is often too late, CB-Top is not played much in my meta, Affinity, StaX and Stompy(both Dragon and Faerie) are popular...
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus- dunno here, crypt feels better for :0: cost
1 Price of Progress - they are brilliant, but 4 MD is no good in random metagame
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Free slots - need your advice here. Maybe Pithing Needle or Magus of the Moon? Or REB/Pyroblast?

I'll be glad to hear your thoughts about how to improve my list.

[jimmerz213]

I actually ran Figures over kird ape this past weekend at the big legacy event in Vestal. My feelings we're mixed..on one hand, there were a couple times I traded 2/2 for 2/2 with merfolk whereas kird ape would have blocked and lived like a champ. However, I think Figure draws removal away from the other creatures better than kird ape does since the threat to get bigger is there.

Oh yea, and if you can survive long enough to do it, figure can eventually fly over moats when your facing Quinn, not that IBA let me live long enough to try it...

All in all, Id have to say I like figure better. Ill definitely be testing it out more. And ill put a list up when I get back from work of the deck I ran, see what you guys think.

[b4r0n]

Congratulations b4r0n. How were the PoP's? Was the life loss ever significant? Were you hesitant to play them when you had so many duals/did you fetch basics to avoid the damage? And, did you ever wish that they could hit creatures?

Thanks. Price of Progress was awesome all day long. My plan was to get in around 10 damage with creatures, then burn out my opponent for the remaining ~10 points. Price of Progress goes a long way towards accomplishing that; it consistently did 4-6 damage to my opponents. Dealing the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 burn spells with a single card seems like a good deal. Although I did about 4-8 damage to myself each time I played Price of Progress, the deck is so aggressive that it didn't really matter. I was never hesitant to play Price, as my life total was always higher than my opponents and those extra points of damage were what allowed me to win games.


With these (mostly) standardized GRW lists with Pridemage and friends, it's probably a relevant question again (last time this was discussed was long before Pridemage and the current builds):

Is Figure of Destiny better than Kird Ape? Our team tested Goyf Sligh, and we came to the conclusion that it was a fair amount better than Ape, although most people seemed to come to the opposite conclusion.

Wild Necatl is easily the best one drop, but Figure seems slightly better than Kird Ape, which is better than Skyshroud Elite. Grim Lavamancer falls in there somewhere around Figure, probably. I'd probably take B4RON's exact list (congrats on the finish), and go -4 Kird Ape, -2 Thoctar; +4 Figure, +2 Grim Lavamancer (or 3/3 split). Of course, I didn't just split for first, though.

I played around with Figure of Destiny in Goyf Sligh, and I really liked it there. One of the main appeals of Figure over Kird Ape in Goyf Sligh is that you don't have to fetch out your Taigas in order to make it big; it functions off of basic Mountains, so you only need to fetch out Taigas to play Goyfs. However, in Zoo, you almost always have a Forest on the board. The manabase of Zoo is a lot more conducive for supporting Kird Ape than the manabase of Goyf Sligh.

Also, in Zoo, I don't know if I really want to be spending mana to pump Figure to a 2/2 on turn 2; I'd rather be dropping a Qasali on turn 2 and swinging with a 3/4 Ape or a 4/4 Nacatl. Similarly, I don't think that I'd often pump Figure to a 4/4; I'd rather play a Goyf or even a Thoctar. Figure is definitely good, but I'm not sure that it's really any better than Kird Ape. Kird Ape just seems like a better fit.

The additional point of toughness is definitely relevant too. I run Volcanic Fallout in the board.


Knight of the Reliquary is a house, and I will always reccomend him over Wooly Thoctar if you want a 3 drop. He doesn't get hit by hydroblast or Chill, and he is absolutely huge. If you end up in a stand off, he makes it much easier to win by thinning out your deck while becoming absolutely monstrous. And in corner cases, he can fix your mana, or pretty much infinitely fuel your lavamancers. If you've been finding Thoctar lacking but still want a three drop like I have, I can't reccomend Knight enough.

Congrats on the finish. That's an interesting idea, I hadn't thought of that. I'll definitely test it out.

[Valtrix]

I still think that the games where you can turn figure into a 4/4 will matter more than the games where a measly 2/3 ape will get in there for the win. Really, running figure does not slow you down (much at all). The times where a 2/3 is going to matter is vs. other aggro, which you should beat already. But eh. I already know my philosophy on this deck is a lot different from most people anyway.

[proraptor]

Hi can you guys give your opinion of my list?
decklist:
4 Wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
3 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage

4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
3 fireblast
3 rancor/magma jet
4 rift bolt/path to exile
3 price of progress

4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
1 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plain
3 mountain

I don't like vial i think it really slows you down on turn 1!
I really like the game plan of burning the opponent price of progress and fireblast for the finishing touch grim lavamancer for the mid-game creature base is pretty standard. chain/lightning bolt are the best burn spells cheap removal, the spots that are a little blanc for me are 3 rancor/magma jet and the 4 rift bolt/path to exile. Those 4 rift bolt are maybe a little over the top so maybe extra removal or maybe 4 lightning helix I really don't know suggestions please!!!
I'm still thinking about the sideboard. some anti goblin/anti blue(choke)/anti atrifact enchantment/ anti combo.

[from Cairo]

Hi can you guys give your opinion of my list?
decklist:
4 Wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
3 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage

4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
3 fireblast
3 rancor/magma jet
4 rift bolt/path to exile
3 price of progress

4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
1 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plain
3 mountain


Other than the mana, it looks pretty optimal to me.

I'd definitely go with Jet and Path to Exile over Rancor and Rift Bolt. Path to Exile was incredible for me during testing and all day at the DHG Mox Event, the citp tapped land was almost always irrelevant, and having an answer to Dreadnoughts, 3/4+ Goyfs and Tombstalkers (that doesn't gain them, 12, 3-6, or 5 life) just makes games that much easier. I played 3 in my list, and after the event, I feel it's definitely a card I should have run 4 of.

Rancor I feel like just opens you up to card disadvantage for buffing that you don't need. Rancoring up a Nacatl to have it Plowed, Submerged or Snuff'd Out is a huge beating, we play no means to recover card disadvantage, so I think the risk of being 2 for 1'd is just too great. If you're looking for a creature enhancement spell in the main I think Umezawa's Jitte is the correct choice. But I also feel like more burn, especially burn that Scrys is a welcomed addition. I ran 4 Jet in my list Saturday and was never upset to see it, as I remember every resolved Jet ended up sending at least 1 land to the bottom.

For the manabase I'd run 4 Foothills over Mires, they fetch all your duals, basic Mountain and Forest; Mire only gets Plateau, Taiga and Basic Mountain. I'd run a 2nd Plateau as well as Wasteland insurance, either cutting a Mountain or another Mire.

IE:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3/2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plain
2/3 Mountain

For lists not running Fireblast I prefer: 8 G Fetches, 1 Mire, 3 Taiga, 3 Plateau, 2 Savannah, 1 of each Basic. If going up to 21 land than +1 Mire.

[badjuju]

I tested FoD a while back and became pretty convinced that it was better than Kird Ape. I was running 20 lands, though.

Same results.
Running 4x Figure may be a bit much though.

[joey223]

hello zoo thread.

i just took 1st in my weekly tourney with zoo!

here is the list i ran:

land(18)

2 mire
3 foothills
1 heath
3 taiga
3 plateau
3 savannah
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains

creatures(21)

4 goyf
4 pridemage
4 kird ape
4 wild cat
3 thoctar
2 lavamancer

utility(21)

2 sylvan library
4 bolt
4 chain
4 helix
4 STP
3 null rod


tourney report:

1st opponent: mono red burn

gm 1
i get in early beats with cat and ape but its not enuff and he burns me out real quick.he has sulfuric vortex and during my upkeep i am at 6 so i take 2 then he fireblasts me.

i lose :frown:

gm 2
this game the vortex hurts him as i beat early with creatures and my own burn.but he put up a good fight as he burned the crap out of me,got me down to 6 life real quick!next turn my wild cat hits for 3 ,brings him from 8 to 5 ,i cast a helix to get him to 2 and during his upkeep he takes 2 from his vortex.

i win.

gm 3
more of the same from me with early thoctar and goyf creature beats and from him casting 4 1cc spells to bring me to 12 very quickly.i drop a lavamancer after swinging with creatures.he forced to block with keldon marauders to slow down all the creature damage i am doing.he stalls on 1 land for a few turns and finally gets another mountain but its too late as he will die this turn with a lavamancer activation so he is forced to fireblast the mancer.to live 1 more turn. he does not draw an answer and he scoops.

i win

1-0

2nd opponent:dragon stompy

i fear this matchup.chalice,blood moon, and 3sphere.yikes!!

gm 1:
he has a sick hand and its all him game 1 as he plays in succession chalice for 1,blood moon,3sphere!! needless to say i lose.hellbent raiders go the distance.

gm 2:
he drops 2 chrome mox early and magus but does not see much after that.i manage to burn magus, drop a null rod,thoctar and wild cat and they win it for me.

gm 3:
same as game 1 with chalice ,blood moon, 3 sphere totally shutting me down. he also has 1 mountain and 2 chome mox .but he stalls after that.so i manage to drop null rod,get a forest in play which allows me to grip his blood moon which allows me to cast pridemage to kill his chalice which allows me to
drop my 1 cc creatures and use my 1 cc burn spells.i go on to win .

yikes!! that was close.i think if he does not stall and gets a threat on board he prolly wins.
at the same time i feel good about playing thru the best game state he could have. i am just happy to walk away with a win in this one.

gg jeff

2-0

me and opp.3 ID to the top 4.

2-1
on to the top 4:

1st top4 opponent: ANT again. argg! i dread this matchup.

gm 1:
he goes 1st and combos off on his second turn!?! ouch.

gm 2:
i drop second turn pyrostatic pillar.next turn he casts a bunch of cards takes damage from pillar then casts a mini tendrills he goes back to 17 and puts me at 6 . i get null rod out next turn,drop a few creatures and beat with them,get him in burn range and bolt him for the win.

gm 3
i get second turn null rod and that really helps me.it slows him down enuff to let me beat and burn a little before he tries to go off with ad nauseum.with null rod out ,he cant find the right cards and ends up taking lethal dmg from ad nauseum.

wow.null rod is good in this matchup but i am just happy to get a win here knowing ANT can go off any moment.

on to top 2:

vs.aggro loam

Game 1, he drops chalice for 1. ouch!! that hurts.then drops seismic assault with two life from the loam, he destroys my critters and drops tarmogoyf.it goes the distance.

Game 2, he drops chalice for 1 again.it slows me down until pridemage shows up.i then drop thoctar and wild cat.i manage to burn some small blockers and the cat and thoctar win it for me.

Game 3, he drops wasteland but uses it to cast things so im thinking he's missing a color.it turns out to be green so he stalls a bit without green. i drop wild cat and ape
they beat a little before EE takes them out.i then drop 2 goyfs and they win it for me!

1st place!


looking back sylvan library was a non factor and when i did draw it i was not very happy to see it so it will get the axe.

blood moon and chalice are a PAIN!! i think i will try to squeeze in a few more basics to get around the moon.
and side in the grips for chalice or maybe tin street hooligan?
perhaps pridemage and grip are enuff?

comments and suggestions please.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@ joey223: Congrats! How do you consistently cast Thoctar with only 18 lands. It amazes me how people can drop to so few lands without cantrips and still do so well.

Hooligan isn't necessary anymore in my opinion, we got exalted guys to do that :cool: .

And if you really don't like artifacts, then run Ancient Grudge. I know you have NullRod and Pridemage, but Grudge is just amazing.

[Dessyreqt]

I took the 5-color version to my local tournament and placed 2nd, losing to a CounterTop deck that had some amazing draws.

The deck is a blast to play. For those stuck on three-color, give it a shot. The list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=347670&postcount=396 I went -1 Savannah, -1 Bloodstained Mire, +2 Jitte. It worked out pretty well. My sideboard went like this:
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Compost
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Krosan Grip

As for swapping Tribal Flames for Price of Progress, PoP doesn't kill creatures, and Tribal Flames kills them good, though needs just a little help killing Tarmogoyf.

Vial is amazing in this deck, specifically in this build, since everything costs 2. Very important for getting around Spell Snare.

I didn't have much of a chance to use Trygon Predator, but he's definitely still a relevant threat in this format and doesn't really feel redundant alongside the Pridemages.

My sideboard did okay for being such a rush job (I put it together on the way to the tournament.) My only issue was with Volcanic Fallout's RR in the cost. I boarded it in often, but saw it so rarely. I'm not overjoyed at the card. Grips were fantastic, as could be expected, and Compost is way too good in my meta not to use. Relics are kind of a toss up. I'm not sure they help matches that I'm not already winning.

I'm quite satisfied with this deck and will work on it some more for next week. If you're stuck on 3-color, or think the manabase on this deck is too screwy, give it a shot anyway. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[The Wolf]

Seems like if you going to run rancor, bonesplitter might just be better. Its a 2 mana commitment over a 1 mana one, but it hits just as hard and takes away the card disadvantage issue. This card turns every guy into a big threat.
Biggest problem is that it gets hit by exploseives at 1.
Also, a burn spell is prob just better.

[kicks_422]

I think Rancor is used more for the trample than the +2 power. The guys you play are already big enough, and smashing other creatures is only eclipsed by smashing through them.

[The Wolf]

I think Rancor is used more for the trample than the +2 power. The guys you play are already big enough, and smashing other creatures is only eclipsed by smashing through them.

Makes sense. I didn't think that the creature size was that different bewteen this deck and other creature decks that trample would do that much, except goblins. Merfolk, dragon stompy, other zoo, loam decks all seem to have pretty large creatures.

[Nekrataal]

I am trying to "convert" my Goyfsligh into more of Zoo-style deck. So I was replacing The Hellspark Elemenatl slot with Pridemages and changing one burn slot against 3 Path to Exile and one additional land to come up to 20. I really would like to stick to a "near" Goyfsligh list to be not too heavily reliant on W mana and to keep a high amount of burn spells. I thought about -1 Fireblast -1 Magma Jet but I do not see a compelling card choice to be included in those two slots. Thoctar is rather clumsy, adding one more Path or PoP doesn not sound like the big deal, 2 Helix are not too bad but then I am adding more W .... if you have some arguments for occupying this slots with card X I am open to suggestions.

Creatures:
4x Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

20 Lands (still have to determine that, suggestions are welcome)

SB:
Fixed:
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip

Further Choices:
1 Krosan Grip (unsure because of Pridgemage Main and against CBT also Shusher helps)
3-4 Gaddock Teeg (unsure if to include him at all, against Landstill or Stax he shines maybe even against Storm ... with Landstill being the most relevant ... but there is also Winter Orb which is harder to remove)
3 Winter Orb (also could play in combination with Gaddock, Winter Orb is a more general answer against control matchups)
2 Jitte (as I play no Helix 2 is at least what I think I should play)
2 Choke (unsure to include that at all)
2-3 Volcanic Fallout / Pyroclasm (sounds great on paper but against which matchup is it relevant? Aggro Swarm like Survival Elves maybe Merfolk which is already a good matchup ... I really do not see many decks it matters against.)

SB suggestion also welcome. Since my next tourney I am going to is rather small I expect a rather random meta but CBT with or without Coatl surely will be present.

[zulander]

-4 Magma Jet, +4 Helix.

It's worth it. Trust me. Also, Thoctar is a beating, play him.

[hungryLIKEALION]

As I said earlier in the thread, Knight of the Reliquary is better than Thoctar in just about every instance.

[Jak]

As I said earlier in the thread, Knight of the Reliquary is better than Thoctar in just about every instance.

What about the instance where you only have 2 lands in your GY?

[hungryLIKEALION]

You have a lot of options in such a case.

1-Tap it once and it's a 6/6.
2-Beat down as a 4/4. 1 Power isn't usually that relevant.
3-Crack another Fetchland.

And considering all of the card's upsides when compared to thoctar, I really don't think there's a contest.

[eq.firemind]

What about the instance where you only have 2 lands in your GY?
Between your fetchlands (and fireblasts if you run it) and enemy's wastelands this will happen very rare.
The only game I can wanted Thoctar over her was Affinity with MD/SB Relic. But I already run Ancient Grudge in sideboard ('cause they are fucking awesome), so that was not a big problem.

[Jak]

You have a lot of options in such a case.

1-Tap it once and it's a 6/6.
2-Beat down as a 4/4. 1 Power isn't usually that relevant.
3-Crack another Fetchland.

And considering all of the card's upsides when compared to thoctar, I really don't think there's a contest.

1-Tapping it to make it better is a waste of an attack.

2-It is still a 4/4 and worse than Thoctar.

3-What if you don't have a 4th land?

Basically, I think it can be better, but worse more than half the time.

You run 9 fetchlands so every 7 (or 6.67 to be exact) draws you will get a fetchland on average. By turn 4 (when you could be attacking with KotR or Thoctar), you will have 11 draws (7 for your opening hand and 4 for the game assuming you are on the draw). You will, on average, not get more than 2 fetchlands by turn 4 and most often it will be attacking as a 3/3 or 4/4.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I could totally see the downside. I hate making their GY hate even more viable. Grudge or not. I could see KotR being good in Fireblast/ Lavamancer builds but not the more creature heavy lists such as mine.

It takes me back to Extended too when Saito's deck ran KotR and Treetop Villages. I'm definitely not condoning Treetop Village at all i'm just saying it'd be neat to have a 1of neat land. Too bad it doesn't work that way.

[Jak]

I also just noticed you (hungryLIKEALION) are running Lavamancer. The cards play horribly together.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Actually I find them to work wonderfully together. KoTR has the ability to infinitely fuel your lavamancer, an interaction that has won me multiple games.

I find that most of the times I drop Knight, as he is only a 2 of in my build, he is 5/5 or better. On turn three I often drop him as a 4/4 and he is a 5/5 by the next two turns. He also dodges Chill, Blue Elemental/Hydroblast, and any other red hating cards that, from what I hear, blue likes to play against us. Add it all up and it's better than Thoctar.

[Jak]

Actually I find them to work wonderfully together. KoTR has the ability to infinitely fuel your lavamancer, an interaction that has won me multiple games.

I find that most of the times I drop Knight, as he is only a 2 of in my build, he is 5/5 or better. On turn three I often drop him as a 4/4 and he is a 5/5 by the next two turns. He also dodges Chill, Blue Elemental/Hydroblast, and any other red hating cards that, from what I hear, blue likes to play against us. Add it all up and it's better than Thoctar.

Good points. It does have it's advantages and tricks.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

He also dodges Chill, Blue Elemental/Hydroblast, and any other red hating cards that, from what I hear, blue likes to play against us. Add it all up and it's better than Thoctar.

Haha your replies are starting to sound like mine my friend:laugh:

[eq.firemind]

It takes me back to Extended too when Saito's deck ran KotR and Treetop Villages. I'm definitely not condoning Treetop Village at all i'm just saying it'd be neat to have a 1of neat land. Too bad it doesn't work that way.
That's the main reason why Knight is (IMHO) underplayed in Legacy: people try to build around her, while she just needs fetches/(enemy's)wastelands to be descent. Her tutor ability is just nice addition, not the main factor to run her.
It reminds me times when people tried to maximize Goyf with Tarfire (I'm not saying she's even near sir Goyf, just point out the same mistake people made in the past)

Horizon Canopy and/or Barbarian Ring can be nice (actually, they can be nice without Knight =))

[hungryLIKEALION]

Horizon Canopy and/or Barbarian Ring can be nice (actually, they can be nice without Knight =))
I hadn't thought of trying those cards, actually. I think I will give them a shot. I'm working on a new build anyway.

[Carabas]

If you ever see Lands or Stax, a singleton wasteland can kill Tabernacle, which can be useful. I've also used it to stop EE recursion with Academy Ruins.

[Charlatan]

So, which are the optimal lists that we can find atm?

And the collors?

I really like domain zoo...

creature [23]

4 Dark Confidant
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tin Street Hooligan/pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl

instant [10]
3 Gaea's Might
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix

sorcery [7]
4 Tribal Flames
3 Vindicate

land [20]
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

[b4r0n]

I went 4-1 and split the finals of a 12-man tournament yesterday with the same list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=348915&postcount=460) I posted before. I beat Elves, 5c Zoo, UG Thrash, and UG CB/Top. My only loss was to combo.

Some random tech from my opponent in the Zoo mirror: Jotun Grunt. I don't know whether he was running them maindeck or sideboard, but they singlehandedly won him game 2. Goyfs became too small to handle them, so my only outs were Path, Thoctar, chump block plus burn spell (bad), or double burn spell (also bad). Has anyone else played around with Grunts? They seem decent.

[Waya]

I'm currently trying out a list similar to Felipe de Castro's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26330).

It's not traditional Zoo (and he didn't really call it zoo), but it has the same principles.

I'm running the following:

//Creatures - 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells - 31
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
4 Manamorphose
3 Land Grant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lotus Petal
3 Bequeathal
2 Reckless Abandon

//Land - 13
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

The deck tries to address zoo's biggest disadvantage - card advantage. Without black or blue the choices are limited (yes, I know the inherent problems with creature enchantments).

Early game, this deck runs very smoothly, but if it gets held up, it can have some issues. Pre-board it has issues going against control - post board it can be a pretty even match up (red/green have plenty of ways to deal with CBT/Chalice/Trinisphere). It rolls over weenies and usually goblins, too. Post-board against them it's pretty much a cake walk. All but 1 of your creatures are pyroclasm, so it definately goes in the board.

One thing I would like to try and replace is mogg fanatic. He is really weak for this deck (other than the synergy with bequeathal). I'd like to find a replacement for him. I've thought about mongoose.With fetchlands, petals, land grants, manamorphose, and other burn your gy fills up fairly quickly; however, it doesn't seem to be quick enough. Mongoose would, however, shine in a control match up if you manage to sneak him in first turn. Rogue Elephant, too, became an option, but with 13 lands the loss of one really hurts. Thought about Quirion Dryad, but once again, it is a little too slow. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Most importantly, the deck is really fun to play.

[Citrus-God]

Land Grant and Lotus Petal are awful. Land Grant can get countered, which sucks for mana. Lotus Petal sucks because it's definitely card disadvantage and the tempo boost is very temporary and inefficient. If anything, you should run Chrome Mox if you want a tempo boost.

Also, the lack of Price of Progress is really questionable.

[Nekrataal]

-4 Magma Jet, +4 Helix.

It's worth it. Trust me. Also, Thoctar is a beating, play him.

I am still not convinced. After reading the full thread I got the average opinion that Thoctar is not a must have addition to the deck and is boarded out a lot. My personal view is that due to his color demands he is rather a mid-lategame option in terms of Zoo, so we are already talking about winning within the next turns with what is on the table and additional burn. I am not really set that the deck needs Thoctar. My former Goyfsligh could win without him ;) and I never felt the need of an additional big beater. Yeah on the other hand he is still a 5/4 for 3, so maybe worth trying out. I will at least test him because two slots can be freed. Knight of the Reliquary could also be an alternative. Although I have no experience with him at all he has the opportunity to be really big and serve some extra tricks. What stands against him is that she/he might be too slow for Zoo and potentially makes the deck as a whole too dependant on your graveyard (Goyf/Lavamancer already depend on it).

I am not sold on Helix. OK it does 3 damage which is great. 3 life I render irrelevant unless I have an aggro mirror where it is certainly great. I like Magma Jet because it smoothes out your draw in a deck which has none. In the end this might come down to a choice based on a tourneys meta game.

In addition playing Helix and Thoctar/Knights makes you play RGW and not RGw. From my experiences opponents (if able) always try to screw you on white first because they assume you playing an RG base with b or w splash. Thats the reason I wanted to go lightly on white cards. But maybe this experience is just too subjective because of me playing RGw Goyfsligh with w for 2x Helix and Nacatl. Dunno.

[Nihil Credo]

According to the site's search engine, Countryside Crusher has never been mentioned in this thread. Considering that it (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16761) has (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21707) seen (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24716) play (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14889) in (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19979) aggro (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20352) decks (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20287)already, how many of you have tried using it in the Woolly Thoctar spot?

[Nekrataal]

According to the site's search engine, Countryside Crusher has never been mentioned in this thread. Considering that it (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16761) has (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21707) seen (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24716) play (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14889) in (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19979) aggro (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20352) decks (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20287)already, how many of you have tried using it in the Woolly Thoctar spot?

I render him too slow growing in Zoo as compared to Aggro Loam. Knight definitely can grow itself faster and is probably bigger from the start.

[Jak]

I render him too slow growing in Zoo as compared to Aggro Loam. Knight definitely can grow itself faster and is probably bigger from the start.

But that is horrible for an aggro deck to do. You are wasting an attack with a 4/4 to make it bigger.

Countryside Crusher draws you into the spells you need while growing itself. Seems like it should at least be tried.

[eq.firemind]

But that is horrible for an aggro deck to do. You are wasting an attack with a 4/4 to make it bigger.
Countryside Crusher draws you into the spells you need while growing itself. Seems like it should at least be tried.
But he can also just be a pathetic 3/3 for :1::r::r: for a couple of turns.
I'll test him in 3-cost slot too, but for now Knight seems to have the perfect balance between inicital P/T and ability to grow. Oh, and Knight can't be Hydroblasted.

[Shawon]

Furthermore, if you're forced to go on defense (e.g. opposing Tombstalker), you can rely on Knight to sit back and get bigger. I just played one game where I had a 4/4 Knight in play and my opponent played Tombstalker. I obviously couldn't attack without losing Knight, so I sat back in defense, took 5 from Tombstalker, used Knight to tutor for Wooded Foothills, fetched another land, and swung next turn with a 6/6 Knight.

[from Cairo]

Yea honestly I think Knight's biggest perk over Thoctar is being blast-proof, usually when boarding out Thoctar it was either against decks with alot of land disruption that I was afraid of hitting all 3 colors or vs Blue decks that would likely be bringing in blasts. CSC while it could turn out to be better than Thoctar in terms of P/T and ability to be cast consistantly, it still seems like it would be boarded out versus blue where that wouldn't always have to be the case with Knight.

[Carabas]

You're only going to face blast against blue decks, and I think the biggest reason to play a 3cc creature instead of more burn is to avoid Counterbalance. For a while I stopped playing with thoctar, and put in more chain lightning, but that seemed to make the CB matchup a lot worse.

Thoctar is a great topdeck v. control, but you never want to get to topdeck mode, and if you do, Knight will probably be bigger by that time (unless they're playing maindeck relics, but I've got Null Rod in the SB for EE/Relic/Top). If you feel confident enough to fight through an early CB/Top lock and to get control into burn range before they stabilize, I would play some burn over Thoctar or Knight.

On a side note, if you ever see 43 lands, Knight is amazing, as you can put a singleton Wasteland in your board, and tutor it up to kill Tabernacle/Glacial Chasm. It'll only buy you a turn or two, but that's often enough.

[b4r0n]

Thoctar is good against:

-board control/slow control, including some CB decks
-aggro, including (and especially) the mirror

Thoctar is not good against:

-Daze/Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole
-blue blasts
-combo (too slow)

Crusher would be similarly good against board control/slow control, and similarly weak against blue blasts and combo. Although Crusher is a little easier to cast through Wastes/Stifles/Sinkholes (and grows larger when they destroy your lands), it's probably worse in the mirror since it has a toughness of 3 rather than 4. And that's important, because it's actually staying in for the mirror whereas it's usually getting boarded out against Dazes and blue blasts.

I think Crusher is weaker than Knight of the Reliquary, and I'm still unsure how Knight compares to Thoctar.

[Carabas]

I think Knight is worse than Wooly Thoctar against aggro (she's smaller in the early game), but can be better against board control decks (depending on if they have graveyard hate or not), and is much better against CB decks. Being able to outgrow goyf, fuel lavamancer, and get basic lands to avoid B2B/Wastelock can really help.