[Deck] Zoo [Archive] - Page 3

Nekrataal

06-08-2009, 08:57 AM

Thoctar is good against:

-board control/slow control, including some CB decks
-aggro, including (and especially) the mirror

Thoctar is not good against:

-Daze/Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole
-blue blasts
-combo (too slow)

Crusher would be similarly good against board control/slow control, and similarly weak against blue blasts and combo. Although Crusher is a little easier to cast through Wastes/Stifles/Sinkholes (and grows larger when they destroy your lands), it's probably worse in the mirror since it has a toughness of 3 rather than 4. And that's important, because it's actually staying in for the mirror whereas it's usually getting boarded out against Dazes and blue blasts.

I think Crusher is weaker than Knight of the Reliquary, and I'm still unsure how Knight compares to Thoctar.

I would like to emphasize that Thoctar then is not good against a lot of decks. I recently playetested Zoo vs. Merfolk and Thoctar especially sucked because it got dazed everytime I tried to play him Turn 3 (which I just have to try sonetimes to keep up the pressure). Later I waited a turn but then Thoctar looses even more relevance in this matchup. Also I do not see him relevant against board control because he is just too slow for that from CC point of view. With Humility and other 4cc threads hitting the table the next turn why should he? Against CB he might come in handy as Tarmogoyf 5 and 6, cannot be stolen easily by Shackles, not snared, not easily counterbalanced (although possible -> some list e.g. have Grip main) but hey if I am already "outbalanced" by CounterTop does a lucky drawn Thoctar really turn the game ... I doubt it. I'd rather go with a Lavamancer to shoot some more damage.

Zach Tartell

06-08-2009, 09:50 AM

I complied data on the Zoo decks that ran thoctar and those that didn't. I'll be posting it today (as I don't have to do shit for school any more).

For what it's worth, the one GR zoo (Goyf Sligh, I guess) did better than any of the other zoo variants (RGB, RW, RGW), and it ran Lavamancer.

Skeggi

06-08-2009, 09:52 AM

For what it's worth, the one GR zoo (Goyf Sligh, I guess) did better than any of the other zoo variants (RGB, RW, RGW), and it ran Lavamancer.
How about Domain? At the moment it's the only Zoo version played in The Netherlands that actually reaches top 8.

Zach Tartell

06-08-2009, 10:25 AM

None (not even a little bit). There were (consulting my manilla folder of knowledge):

6 Naya Zoo (this archetype had the best handwriting as a whole)

5 with Pridemage
4 with Thoctar
All six played Grim Lavamancer
2 with Sylvan Library

1 RW (with Ismaru, Savannah Lions, and 3 Cannonists MD)
1 RGB with green only for Goyf, Black only for Confidant (and Perish boarded)
1 RG list (that can be found in the "lol look at how bad my typing skills are" thread in the reports forum)

I don't love you guys enough to figure out their rankings, though.

b4r0n

06-08-2009, 12:03 PM

I think Knight is worse than Wooly Thoctar against aggro (she's smaller in the early game), but can be better against board control decks (depending on if they have graveyard hate or not), and is much better against CB decks. Being able to outgrow goyf, fuel lavamancer, and get basic lands to avoid B2B/Wastelock can really help.

Knight has ranged from being a 2/2 to being a 6/6, but I've never gotten it bigger than that. I think that it can be better than Thoctar, but I'm not sure that it's consistently bigger. I think Knight's biggest strength is that it can't be blue blasted, but I've been siding out my 3cc beater against a lot of blue decks anyways.

I would like to emphasize that Thoctar then is not good against a lot of decks. I recently playetested Zoo vs. Merfolk and Thoctar especially sucked because it got dazed everytime I tried to play him Turn 3 (which I just have to try sonetimes to keep up the pressure). Later I waited a turn but then Thoctar looses even more relevance in this matchup. Also I do not see him relevant against board control because he is just too slow for that from CC point of view. With Humility and other 4cc threads hitting the table the next turn why should he? Against CB he might come in handy as Tarmogoyf 5 and 6, cannot be stolen easily by Shackles, not snared, not easily counterbalanced (although possible -> some list e.g. have Grip main) but hey if I am already "outbalanced" by CounterTop does a lucky drawn Thoctar really turn the game ... I doubt it. I'd rather go with a Lavamancer to shoot some more damage.

Yeah, Thoctar is pretty poor against Merfolk. However, I feel like Merfolk is an awesome matchup anyways, and it gets even better post-board with Volcanic Fallout and/or Jitte.

Against board control, Thoctar is a Goyf-sized threat that allows you to apply pressure without overcommitting to the board. Humility is a beating, but that's kind of unavoidable. Against most other 4cc threats, Thoctar is really good.

Against Daze-less CB decks, he's definitely strong. If you're getting locked out at 1cc and 2cc by a Counterbalance, chances are that you'll be able to resolve a Thoctar or at least force them to shuffle to dig for an answer. This is one of the matchups where he's still pretty good post-board.

At the moment, I feel pretty comfortable with my CB matchup, my tribal aggro matchup, and the mirror. With the exception of combo, that's most of my metagame. Thoctar is a bomb in the mirror, decent against some CB decks, and mediocre against tribal aggro. Until I find something better, I think I'm going to stick with Thoctar.

Happy Gilmore

06-08-2009, 02:29 PM

Guys, Price of Progress is the one card that sets Zoo so far ahead of the rest of the red agro variants. To support it you simply cant play 5 color, nor do you need to. GWR has everything you could want.

You cant play knight in the deck effectively, it competes too much with lavamancer. And lavamancer is easily the better card.

Carabas

06-08-2009, 06:48 PM

Tap Knight, sacrificing a land, to get a fetchland. Sac the fetchland, and amazingly, from your empty grave, there is another activation of Lavamancer!

Guevera59

06-08-2009, 07:02 PM

But then your Knight is a 2/2 that is irrelevant in the combat phase. You have a Tarmogoyf that has a high chance of losing valuable P/T. You have sacrificed an entire turn of aggression for two damage and card disadvantage. I would rather cut the cutesie plays with Knight and just drop a 5/4 and beat face.

from Cairo

06-08-2009, 10:05 PM

I agree, cutesie plays should not be the focal selling point of Knight. I think the questions should be:

1. How often is it coming down as a 5/5+?
2. How often are you able to keep (and want to keep a 3cc guy) in post board in the face of Blue Blasts?
3. How big of a liability is the reliance of threats 5-6 on the GY?

If the card matches or beats out Thoctar in these respects then I think the added fetch ability can help seal him as being superior, but for an agro deck, the idea of wasting a turn of swinging to grow him can't be seen as a huge perk. The fetch ability will occasionally help though, like in ground stall just building him up so he trades for 2-3 of an opponents smaller creatures, or thinning land from the deck, or fueling Lavamancer.

lordofthepit

06-08-2009, 10:24 PM

Nekrataal

06-09-2009, 02:29 PM

I haven't played Zoo much, but I'm considering building it.

On the Knight vs. Thoctar issue, it seems that relatively few people have addressed the difference between :1::g::w: and :r::g::w:. Based on your experiences playing the deck, how often has that third color mana been an issue, especially in the face of Wastelands? In what matchups does the color screw possibility of Thoctar become a non-issue? And in what matchups do they become even more relevant? Which of these matchups do you want to improve more?

As Zoo plays R sources at most and G and W come second I would say that this isn't really an issue. You should mulligan If you have no chance for R on your starting hand I would say. In my playtesting getting G or W sometimes is an issue against Wastelands and Co although I render G still more important than W due to the green creatures that build up pressure but this depends on the build and how much W is into it.

lorddotm

06-09-2009, 02:39 PM

I'm currently trying out a list similar to Felipe de Castro's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26330).

It's not traditional Zoo (and he didn't really call it zoo), but it has the same principles.

I'm running the following:

//Creatures - 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells - 31
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
4 Manamorphose
3 Land Grant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lotus Petal
3 Bequeathal
2 Reckless Abandon

//Land - 13
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

The deck tries to address zoo's biggest disadvantage - card advantage. Without black or blue the choices are limited (yes, I know the inherent problems with creature enchantments).

Early game, this deck runs very smoothly, but if it gets held up, it can have some issues. Pre-board it has issues going against control - post board it can be a pretty even match up (red/green have plenty of ways to deal with CBT/Chalice/Trinisphere). It rolls over weenies and usually goblins, too. Post-board against them it's pretty much a cake walk. All but 1 of your creatures are pyroclasm, so it definately goes in the board.

One thing I would like to try and replace is mogg fanatic. He is really weak for this deck (other than the synergy with bequeathal). I'd like to find a replacement for him. I've thought about mongoose.With fetchlands, petals, land grants, manamorphose, and other burn your gy fills up fairly quickly; however, it doesn't seem to be quick enough. Mongoose would, however, shine in a control match up if you manage to sneak him in first turn. Rogue Elephant, too, became an option, but with 13 lands the loss of one really hurts. Thought about Quirion Dryad, but once again, it is a little too slow. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Most importantly, the deck is really fun to play.

Force of Will your Land Grant, what now?

Shawon

06-09-2009, 05:34 PM

No Qasali Pridemage in that decklist? Oh the horror of not being able to kill Jitte, Shackles, Vial, and many more game 1.

Anyway, I've picked up Zoo over the last couple of days, and here's the list I've made with tweaks:

Zoo

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [R] Taiga
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Savannah
3 [U] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
2 [TSP] Rift Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

I originally had 3 Price of Progress MD, but I wanted more versatile cards that could either burn/remove, so I added the 4th PtE and 2 Rift Bolt.

Any thoughts/questions?

TheCramp

06-09-2009, 07:49 PM

I run 4 PoP. It is the reason to play the deck. I never kill myself with it cause of Fireblast. I aim to do about 10 damage with my critters, and burn out the rest. PoP and Flame Blast make this viable, alowing you to still use Lightning Bolt and Chain fir removal if need be.

Guevera59

06-09-2009, 07:52 PM

Do you mean fireblast?

TheCramp

06-09-2009, 09:30 PM

Shawon

06-09-2009, 10:13 PM

TheCramp

06-09-2009, 10:50 PM

You should run 4 Lavamancer in Zoo, always. It's that good, and if you're facing Merfolk or any deck that Lavamancer PWNS against, they will try to kill it, so always run 4 to make sure you always have one or an extra handy.
Also, Lavamancer can also help you win Goyf Wars better than Fanatic.

Not from a tempo perspective. But I think we agree, Mogg and Grim are superb cards. I play against a lot of Ichorid, so I like my Moggs. They plummet in value vs. merfolk, which Is why I said I want to work them in.

2 Kird Ape isn't effective. You want to reliably cast a threat turn 1. You should run 4 Kird Ape as well. You know, saying this stuff is backing up what I'm about to say below.

You know, come to think of it, I'm really hating Rift Bolt, but I only put it there because I wanted some burn/removal. I might cut the 2 Rift Bolt for Mogg Fanatic.

Point taken. I might go back up to 3 apes. I think it is the weakest link in the deck, and would love to replace it. But it is a 1 drop threat, and there really is nothing to swap in quite like it. I run 4x PoP to your zero, so I don't think I am as pressured to swing in with guys. They might just become Vexing Sushers.

Rift bolt is badass, I am going to shave a helix and go to 3. it pushes past CB, and it can be suspended for a turn where you are going to go critical on landstill and push threw their counter wall.

Nekrataal

06-10-2009, 10:55 AM

Yes, correct.

here is what I run

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Wild Nactle
4 Goyf
2 Kird Ape
4Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 PoP
3 Fireblast
2 Rift Bolt
4 Helix

11 Fetch Lands
6 Dules
Mountain
Plains
Forest

With my heavy burn suit, I should run Grims over Apes or Moggs, I need to test.

I love Mogg, and would be hard pressed to cut it. It seems like the worst creature if your expecting it to fill the roll of beater. His synergy with goyf is obvious. Comes out under CB, makes Blue Goyfs smaller than your Red Goyfs. He is your ponder, making sure goyf is 3/4 when it needs to be (less than that and you would be better off running blood knight...) He can offten swing into an untapped goyf, and get let threw since a Lightning bolt can seal the deal. This is a fine play if he's got in for a point or two. If you feel like your making concessions to the power of Confidant and Ichorid to play him, don't. That's the big lie of "good" cards talking.

This almost exactly resembles my current list in which I tried to stick to the Goyfsligh RG as near as possible except I play 3 Lavamancer instead of Mogg and one more Ape. Lavamancer can deal a lot of damage late game and can wreck decks like Merfolk on its own. Rift bolt and Helix are my most volatile slots. I am not sure about adding Fireblast or playing Magma Jet instead of Helix. Also I sometimes go down to 3 PoP because in some matchups it is a dead card.

Please keep in mind that with the new rulings Mogg becomes much weaker. It still serves it purpose against Dredge but in combat it is a wimp now.

3duece

06-10-2009, 11:03 AM

So now that fanatic sucks I decided to replace him with rift bolt, making my build even more burn heavy. I'm not running path or swords because I don't like the tempo they allow the opponent and the only creature I worry about is dreadnought anyway. How's this list?

1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath

4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridmage
2 watchwolf
2 woolly thoctar
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
4 lightning helix
4 incinerate

TheCramp

06-10-2009, 11:28 AM

I'll just go -4 mog +4 Grim. Grim can always shoot himself in the head to deal with Ichorid. I have bolted Nactles FTW, and compared to that, he's a lot better.

The Pridemage 2 for 1 comes up infrequently, so he is usually just as good. The change hurts your affinity match up, anything else? I'm sure their are moments with jitte or something. He's still savage, even nerfed.

Shawon

06-10-2009, 12:02 PM

Please keep in mind that with the new rulings Mogg becomes much weaker. It still serves it purpose against Dredge but in combat it is a wimp now.

I'm unfamiliar with this. What are the new rulings relating to Mogg Fanatic?

3duece

06-10-2009, 12:37 PM

Damage is now dealt as soon as it is assigned, you can no longer 'respond' to damage on the stack, so no more block-and-sac tricks with fanatic as creatures now die as soon as lethal damage is assigned.

Elfrago

06-10-2009, 02:28 PM

[QUOTE=3duece;352408] no more block-and-sac tricks with fanatic /QUOTE]

False!
You can still block and sack, but you can't deal damage BOTH to the blocked creature and to the target of the ability. Now you have to choose one of them.

blueneverfails

06-10-2009, 03:44 PM

Quick question since I just read a sad day for magic. With the new rule changes coming into effect soon, will this kill the inclusion of mogg fanatic since it is considerably worse? Or is it still good enough for an inclusion?

DragoFireheart

06-10-2009, 03:47 PM

Valtrix

06-13-2009, 02:42 PM

So, I've been testing out the following list:

4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [R] Savannah
1 [A] Bayou
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [9E] Forest (3)
1 [R] Badlands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt

My question is about duergar hedge-mage. What are you guy's thoughts on the hedge-mage versus krosan grip (In general, though I included my list for reference since the build might matter quite a bit). He has 3cc so can still dodge counterbalance most of the time. However, I have seen a lot of countertop decks running more 3 drops, which sucks. However, there are a lot of other threats that they need to counter as well, so that's perhaps not such a large worry.

The two plains is somewhat of a restriction, but at least in my build I never find that a problem when I'm at three mana to have two of them. I really like the possibilities for 2-for-1s (Shackles and a balance maybe?), and just the added bonus of having more cards to give me some card advantage. But, I wonder how much all of it is worth compared to (virtually) always getting the job done with krosan grip. It's pretty clear that hedge-mage is better against general enchantments/artifacts, but there's not a ton of decks that really worry about them. However, hedge-mage does give me the option to bring it in versus things that I can destroy enchantments/artifacts in without having to get rid of many threats. However, the largest thing to worry about is counterbalance in my opinion, which is why grip is so good to begin with.

I probably hate too much on artifacts/enchantments to begin with, but I love stomping on blue decks all right.

Shawon

06-13-2009, 06:32 PM

You might want to shave a Hedge Mage for at least one more Grip. Hedge-Mage and Pridemage do nothing against Humility.

I find Null Rod to be a versatile sideboard answer. It's a permanent answer to EE, Top, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Jitte, and Aether Vial. It's really effective. I'd replace Canonist with 3 Null Rod.

from Cairo

06-13-2009, 07:45 PM

I wouldn't bother with the Hedge Mages at all, honestly. I'd probably run an additional Grip or 2 before Hedge Mages though if one needed more hate. With 4 Pridemage and 3 Krosan Grip you have a ton of answers to Artifacts and Enchantments already.

When would you ever want to board in 4 Hedge Mage, 2 Grip and keep your 4 Pridemage? Even against Dreadstill or Probasco that seems overkill and they have about the most targets in the format.

Unless your meta has ton of Affinity or Enchantress, I would probably gear the hate to be more specific though if that's the case, like Tranquil Domain or Null Rod / Ancient Grudge.

I'm not sure what I would suggest in those spots though, your list is already geared pretty heavily against agro with 8 RFG spells and 3 Jitte, so I don't see much need of Tribal/Mirror hate. And you've already dedicated 8 spots in your 75 to Teegs and Canonists, so you've got more combo hate than most. I guess you could try Vexing Shusher or something in the SB for something else against Counterbalance and also Landstill if you see much of either. I probably wouldn't go with Null Rod in that list since you're running Vials and Jittes of your own, but maybe Pithing Needle, as it can be good against Counterbalance control, and also against Survival.

hungryLIKEALION

06-13-2009, 10:27 PM

I played this deck with Hedgemages before pridemage came out, and they were pretty incredible. Thing is, Pridemage really just steals their slot. They're just not as good as the Pridemage is, even though they are more versatile. I still like them and would certainly keep them in mind as an option, since I think they are in the top tier of potential answers for zoo decks to use.

Valtrix

06-13-2009, 11:16 PM

With 4 Pridemage and 3 Krosan Grip you have a ton of answers to Artifacts and Enchantments already.

I guess you could try Vexing Shusher or something in the SB for something else against Counterbalance and also Landstill if you see much of either.

So you're saying the advantages of grip outweigh those of hedge-mage (mostly that mage can be FOWed or dazed)?

Yet you recommend shusher against mostly counterbalance(landstill runs what, 2 counterspells?), so are you then saying hedge-mage is not useful against counterbalance?

Thing is, Pridemage really just steals their slot. They're just not as good as the Pridemage is, even though they are more versatile.

This doesn't really answer the question of grip versus hedge-mage in the board though. Comparing hedge-mage to qasali doesn't seem to make much sense because I'm not trying to run hedge-mage main. I don't think that Qasali is enough hate on it's own, so something in the board must be needed, but I want to figure out if grip or hedge-mage is more worthwhile.

Shawon

06-14-2009, 01:06 AM

You're better off with Grip over Hedge-Mage. With your manabase anyway, Hedge-Mage seems akward to cast. If you want more utility than Grip, consider Oblivion Ring or Vindicate. They're better than Hedge-Mage.

lebarion

06-14-2009, 10:51 AM

I did top4 with the following list in the Legacy side event at GP:São Paulo yesterday.

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
2 Rift Bolt

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Aethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher

Round 1: Dreadstill
Bad match to begin the championship. :frown: . First game Lavamancer, Goyfs and burn take him to 2 life, but Dreadnought connects twice and he have Force of Will for the last burn.
Second game he plays early counterbalance, 2 big goyfs and counter my goyf and engineered explosives.
0-1

Round 2: White Stax
First game was decided in coin flip. I started with Grim Lavamancer, he plays CotV at 1. I followed with Goyf, he with CotV at 2. I play some spells that were countered by the Chalices just to make goyf bigger, and he couldn't do anything about the guys in time.
Second game he starts with a land and a Mox Diamond, but forget to play Suppresion field, that would avoid me from fetching green in the first two turns (I had double mountain and wooded foothills). I fetch green, play Quirion Dryad in my second turn. He plays the supression field, but at that point it just helped me, as it prevented he from activating his Kor Haven some turns later. Anyway, in my third turn I Bolted him, PoP him for 6 and Dryad connected for 3. A ghostly prison, an armageddon and a Crucible followed, but I draw a few lands and dryad goes the distance.
1-1

Round 3: Aggro Loam
First game he starts with Dark Confidant. I burn Bob, but couldn't put much pressure in the early game, and in the fourth turn a 6/6 Terravore was beating my face.
Second game I stomped him.
Third game was close. At the point time was called, he was at 7 life with a 3/3 Crusher, and I have a lot of life, a Taiga, Forest and 5/6 Goyf in play, a Chain Lightning and a Bolt in hand. He fetched (yeah! :laugh: ), played a Devastating Dreams taking away my 2 lands (oh, no! :cry: ), I responded with bolt. I draw nothing (third of the 5 extra turns), he does a lot of that thing Loam does (cycle, loam, etc.) but doesn't attack (I have a goyf to block, anyway), and in the fifth turn I topdeck the wooded foothills i needed to burn him with chain lightning.
2-1

Round 4: Dragon Stompy
First game he plays furst turn Arc-slogger, which killed my creatures before I could do a thing.
Second and third game Shusher joins the party to show what he thinks about Chalice of the Void :wink: . Paying 4 mana to play a bolt (with Trinisphere and CotV: 1 in play) wasn't fun, but does part of the job. Fireblast finishes him second game, and in 2 PoP for 6 each finishes the third game.
3-1

Round 5: ANT
He is a teammate and we consider drawing, but after analysing the tiebreakers we decide to play. Bad, bad match...
First game, I play some burn and creatures, and ANT do what it does best - play Ad Nauseam, draw a ton of cards, play a ton of spells, tendrils.
Second game I beatdown early, and when he Ad Nauseam he couldn't draw the tutors he needed. He died to his own Ad Nauseam.
Third game was similar to the second. I play Explosives at 0 to avoid goblin tokens and remove some mana artifacts if possible. A Canonist slows him down and take him some life, but I don't overextend as he wished for pyroclasm. He was at low life and goes for the IGG loop (I have no instant in my graveyard), but I have 4 lands in play and a Fireblast in hand.
After the match, people tell him he misplayed at some point of the third game and could have won.
4-1

After the swiss rounds, I'm third. Another 2 teammates passed in 1st (with a strange mix of Team America and ITF, that we call "Team South America" :tongue: ) and 6th (GW fish homebrew). Top 8 had also White Stax, the Dreadstill I played against in the first round, UGr Thresh with both countertop and wasteland, Ichorid and Deadguy (thanks, ScatmanX!).

Top8: GW Fish Homebrew
Another teammate :frown: . He is a great deckbuilder and player, always do top 8 with unexpected homebrew decks. But the match was a nightmare for him: Lavamancer rapes almost all of his guys, Pridemages took care of the Jittes, and there's nothing much he can do.

Top 4: Ichorid Combo
I have no sideboard against him, have not tested nor played against Ichorid before, and was very tired. First game I had no chance as he comboed out 2nd or 3rd turn, and second game I misplayed and he did his thing 2nd turn.

I finished in 4th place. The prize was a little disapointing, but I've had a lot of fun and was happy all my team did top 16.
About the list, this is my first time ever playing Zoo, and I'm very happy with it. I still like the Quirion Dryads although nobody uses she anymore. However, when siding in Krosan Grips and EE I sided out some of them as she would not grow big so easily.

I hope this report is readable in spite of my english.

Mountain Man

06-14-2009, 06:38 PM

I did top4 with the following list in the Legacy side event at GP:São Paulo yesterday.
Congratulation!
As for Dryad, she's quite good when you drop it early in the game, but later on she's an awful top deck when you have no cards in your hand.

What are your thoughts about Jötun Grunt? He can shrink opposing Tarmogoyfs and he's nice in mirror matches because he can disable opposing Lavamancers and a single burn spell isn't enough to kill him. I play 3 of them in my main.

Guevera59

06-14-2009, 07:35 PM

Dryad is an awful magic card. It is a terrible topdeck, isn't a relevant beater unless you have over-comitted or if your opponent is beating you, and dies to to tarmogoyfs and other good magic cards. No evasion+small+poor game plan=Badtown USA

from Cairo

06-14-2009, 10:29 PM

So you're saying the advantages of grip outweigh those of hedge-mage (mostly that mage can be FOWed or dazed)?
Yes, being uncounterable is huge against CB decks, cause once they establish the soft lock, thus not needing to invest counters in your spells, they'll likely be able to stockpile counters in hand to protect it. I'd take Grip all day over other Disenchant options when going against a CB.

Yet you recommend shusher against mostly counterbalance(landstill runs what, 2 counterspells?), so are you then saying hedge-mage is not useful against counterbalance?
I think Shusher is better against a resolved Counterbalance than Hedge-Mage, for the same reason as Grip. Landstill usually runs 10ish permission spells, 4 Force of Will, 2-3 Counterspell and 3-4 Spell Snare. Shusher itself being immune to all of them, and then being able to force through additional spells (Pridemage, Swords/Path, etc) allows you to play your game around their soft lock for an additional R per spell.

Van Phanel

06-15-2009, 06:34 AM

I played a small event yesterday with a slightly different approach to the deck. My base assumptions were that I wanted a very solid manabase while still supporting Nacatl:

4 Taiga
3 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vexing Shusher

4 Lighting Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Seal of Fire
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
2 Krosan Grip

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt

Long story short I lost a single game in seven rounds (5rounds of swiss + Top4) against monored Goblins because I had nothing to board (boarded Path and left 2 Grip in).

At this moment I like the deck very much but I have some questions about your experiences with the deck:

a) How can we distribute the burn-spells? I don't like Chain Lightning at all as Sorcery-speed makes it pretty weak. Incinerate isn't optimal either but I personally wouldn't play Magma Jet over it (I don't want to raise that discussion again)

b) Mogg Fanatic. I didn't really miss it yesterday except against goblins, but I see how it improves some matchups while being below average in others.

c) Sulfuric Vortex? Good or not?

d) Are 4 Krosan Grip enough? Against Counterbalance they should be (combined with Shusher), but I'm currently considering 1-2 additional Ancient Grudge/ Qasali Pridemage against some decks like stax and especially anything with Jitte. Concering Jitte: Should we run it in the sideboard? It's obviously great against other agressive decks.

e) How should an all around sideboard look with 2 Grip main?

2 Krosan Grip (set in stone for me)
+ ??

Thanks for your help.

jimmerz213

06-15-2009, 08:29 AM

For what its worth, Lightning Helix is an amazing burn card that replaced Chains in my deck. Its won me a few games that I can remember. As for other burn, Incerate/Magma Jet are your next best 2 options, but Id strongly suggest at least trying Helix.

I wouldnt run Fanatic at all anymore, especially with the new rule changes on the horizon, he looses too much from them. Also, you run pridemages in the sb I saw but why not MB? They are absolute bombs for 2, IMO. I run 4 mainboard and havent ever sided them out.

I havent ever tried Vortex so I cant really pass judgement, but from knowing how I have used Helix and Jitte on occasion in the past, gaining life for me is sometimes important. Granted, it does negate the "downside" of swords, but I dont know if its worth it overall.

Actually, you dont run swords, so it might be a better option for you.

I run jitte mainboard personally, but I have heard arguments for having it SB. It all really comes down to personal preference. 3 Grips should be plenty too, 4 is a bit much (if your running pridemages anyway).

For your sideboard, it really is meta dependant, Id suggest Crypts, a couple Pridemages (Depending how many are MB), Ethersworn Cannonist or even Gaddok Teeg are great against combo, however they require white. Same with Orim's Chant.

Other than that, it looks solid. Oh, and try out cursed scroll sometime, I think it would be a slightly better fit than Seal of Fire, especially late game.

Van Phanel

06-15-2009, 09:27 AM

Cursed Scroll is something I'll try for sure, thanks for the idea. Three mana might be a lot but playng one or maybe two might be good.

I can see how Pridemage is awesome, but for me it was important not having to rely on white mana game 1 (Nacatl is still decent as 2/2).

Also I didn't want to play all that many two-drops and Shusher is better than Pridemage against blue decks imho. The idea of additional artifact/enchantment removal was more geared towards non-blue decks.

The Wolf

06-15-2009, 03:24 PM

I have a question about the Sideboard.

Why does no one run REB? I have only seen 1 sideboard in the last 5 pages of this thread with it.
I understand that this deck wants to use its mana to cast creatures, but it seems to solve a lot of problems. You can side it in against all the counterbalance decks, merfolk, landstill, combo(even just for mystical and bstorm), and random stuff like solidarity and farie stompy. Its even very good against Painter as you blow there painter up in response to the grindsone (if there using the REB version).

Any help?

Happy Gilmore

06-15-2009, 03:40 PM

So you're saying the advantages of grip outweigh those of hedge-mage (mostly that mage can be FOWed or dazed)?

Yet you recommend shusher against mostly counterbalance(landstill runs what, 2 counterspells?), so are you then saying hedge-mage is not useful against counterbalance?

This doesn't really answer the question of grip versus hedge-mage in the board though. Comparing hedge-mage to qasali doesn't seem to make much sense because I'm not trying to run hedge-mage main. I don't think that Qasali is enough hate on it's own, so something in the board must be needed, but I want to figure out if grip or hedge-mage is more worthwhile.

Grip is substancially better than hedgemage. CB isnt your only fear, at 3cc hedgemage is very easy to daze, is not a threat, and can not hit both artifacts and enchantments. Uncondintionalty is what makes shusher and grip so good.

Carabas

06-15-2009, 05:15 PM

I have a question about the Sideboard.

Why does no one run REB?
Any help?

Boarding it in against merfolk makes your best matchup into an even better matchup. You shouldn't be losing to merfolk, and if you want sideboard slots against them, some slots that are good against most aggro (Path to exile and Jitte are good examples). V. painter and CB decks, you'll want Krosan Grip before REB. The only deck I would consider boarding them in against would be Solidarity. If you see Solidarity, you can board in REBs, or just play canonists+gaea's blessing.

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-15-2009, 05:35 PM

Cursed Scroll is something I'll try for sure, thanks for the idea. Three mana might be a lot but playng one or maybe two might be good.

I played 2 for a while and i was never disappointed to see one. They just dominate some matchups and let you steal games in others. It's more of a mid-late game card though. But totally worth it in my opinion.

I'm surprised that noone runs Jitte in the maindeck either, it's always a must answer like Confidant or they just lose, and i like cards like that.

And I'm also surprised that anyone would suggest Hedge-Mage. Pridemage+Grip= enough artifact/enchantment hate. I don't even run Grip in my list. I run Ancient Grudge. Counterbalance has never really cost me a game with this deck.

jimmerz213

06-15-2009, 06:38 PM

I played 2 for a while and i was never disappointed to see one. They just dominate some matchups and let you steal games in others. It's more of a mid-late game card though. But totally worth it in my opinion.

I'm surprised that noone runs Jitte in the maindeck either, it's always a must answer like Confidant or they just lose, and i like cards like that.

And I'm also surprised that anyone would suggest Hedge-Mage. Pridemage+Grip= enough artifact/enchantment hate. I don't even run Grip in my list. I run Ancient Grudge. Counterbalance has never really cost me a game with this deck.

Im there with you, I run jitte in the MB. Although I use shattering spree instead of ancient grudge, my reasoning is chalice @ 2 gets rid of both my artifact removal, although I may switch it to grip, Ive been thinking about it.

Valtrix

06-15-2009, 07:19 PM

Run grip. The instances where you want to hit an enchantment/not be countered is probably going to come up a lot more than when you can X-for-1 artifacts/get an artifact for cheaper than grip.

Nelis

06-15-2009, 07:47 PM

I played a 17 person tournament last weekend and became 4th.
I played ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (2-1), Merfolk (2-1), Old School Rock (2-1), Death and Taxes (0-2), Aggro Loam (0-2), Goblins (2-1)

I ran:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Nacatl Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Legionnaire
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's jitte

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Price of Progress
3 Krosan Grip

Changes:
-3 Fireblast: Disliked them. When I had them in hand I either had no use for them or did not have two mountains in play.
-1 Singleton Teeg. I did not want to run a 4th Fireblast but so I just tried Teeg

The deck lacked a way to get rid of bigger creatures. You don't really want to spend 2 Burn spells on a creature to get attackers through and then not have enough reach to finish it off with burn. I'm going to replace them with Path's and/or STP.

Im also not completely sure about Legionnaire sometimes I wished they were Tin Street Hooligans (vs vials) but at other times they were great and they're versatile.

Sideboard will be:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
&
3 Volcanic Fallout but I am not sure if I need these maybe I'll replace them with POP but I am not convinced about them either since I run a fair amount of non-basics myself. Any suggestions on this one?

I can see how Pridemage is awesome, but for me it was important not having to rely on white mana game 1 (Nacatl is still decent as 2/2).

Also I didn't want to play all that many two-drops and Shusher is better than Pridemage against blue decks imho. The idea of additional artifact/enchantment removal was more geared towards non-blue decks.

I have to disagree with you on Nacatl being decent as 2/2. Being 3/3 is one of its strong points. It's nearly impossible to kill because most creatures in play on turn 1 or 2 are either 2/2 or 1/1. And if they want to kill it by blocking, it's 2 for 1 most times.

It's also a proper clock against blue decks. If you have it on the board turn one its amazing. In most cases deals 6-9 damage before it's dealt with. Teamed up with Pridemage just makes it sick. I actually think if you try out Pridemage main you're sold.

Vexing Shusher is nice but is just a mere 2/2 against non-blue decks. I agree with Loxodon Baileyarch. With Pridemage main and Grip side you should have enough answers vs counterbalance & Chalice @1.

I also have a few questions.

1. Why did you want to minimize your 2 drops?

2. Did Figure of Destiny work for you since you also run green? Did it become 4/4 often, is it not too mana intensive?

DragoFireheart

06-15-2009, 08:58 PM

Question... how does this deck fight Ichorid decks? Wouldn't it just cry and roll over game 1?

Carabas

06-15-2009, 09:07 PM

If Ichorid is a big meta concern, you can play Mogg Fanatic. Jitte helps a lot against them, and Path/Swords works wonders on GGT/Ichorid. It's not a good matchup, but it is definitely a winnable matchup.

hungryLIKEALION

06-15-2009, 11:05 PM

Question... how does this deck fight Ichorid decks? Wouldn't it just cry and roll over game 1?

Ichorid isn't really very popular right now so it's not a huge concern, but if you feel like improving your g1 ichorid matchup there are a million options.

Mogg Fantic
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Gaddock Teeg
Ethersworn Canonist
to name a few

And of course there's a billion and one sideboard options. So if it's in your meta, it's really not hard to plan to beat it.

from Cairo

06-15-2009, 11:41 PM

How can we distribute the burn-spells? I don't like Chain Lightning at all as Sorcery-speed makes it pretty weak. Incinerate isn't optimal either but I personally wouldn't play Magma Jet over it (I don't want to raise that discussion again)

I don't foresee a consensus being reached on the optimal burn package. People just have too varying personal tastes. And the cards that some people swear by other people say they would never play.

About all I'd say is just run 4 Lightning Bolt and then pick whatever other 6+ creature/player oriented burn spells you're most comfortable with. Viable options including: Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, Seal of Fire, Mogg Fanatic, Magma Jet, Lightning Helix, Incinerate, Tribal Flames, etc. Then if one wants more reach Price of Progress and/or Fireblast.

Van Phanel

06-16-2009, 04:30 AM

I have to disagree with you on Nacatl being decent as 2/2. Being 3/3 is one of its strong points. It's nearly impossible to kill because most creatures in play on turn 1 or 2 are either 2/2 or 1/1. And if they want to kill it by blocking, it's 2 for 1 most times.

Obviously that fact that Nacatl is a 3/3 for G makes it amazing. But, just in case your opponent has that Wasteland, you still have a 2/2 for G - not all that great, but still okay (which happens to be the meaning of the word "decent"). I just wanted to express that my maindeck doesn't need white mana to work.

I also have a few questions.

1. Why did you want to minimize your 2 drops?

2. Did Figure of Destiny work for you since you also run green? Did it become 4/4 often, is it not too mana intensive?

1. Because they cost two mana. Now I know this sounds like something nitewolf9 would have said, but I mean it. This deck is all about tempo. You don't want to spend two mana, just to see your beater Dazed, Spell Snared or StoPed. Tarmogoyf is obviously too fucking crazy good to not run it, but that aside, Shusher can avoid some of the problems I mentioned above while at the same time letting you ignore CB and Chalice.

2. I didn't draw them all that often, but I had a long game against monored goblins where Figure won while any other 1-drop wouldn't have. It basically got down to me having 5 lands in play vs his seven and he had to mainphase a (hardcast) Pyrokinesis on my Figure to play around a topdecked land from me. This gave me one more turn of free swinging and those three life killed him in the end. The singleton Forest is necessary but doesn't make Figure all that much worse.

Edit: I'm not quite sure if I should be in the Goyf Sligh thread. What exactly is the difference between the two?

Wargoos

06-16-2009, 04:55 AM

Zoo has mostly a higher creature count, while Goyf Sligh packs more burn.
Also Goyf Sligh was traditionally just two-colored.

€dit: Parental Explicit Content.

Nelis

06-16-2009, 01:44 PM

I just wanted to express that my maindeck doesn't need white mana to work.

Ok, I see what you mean.

Because they cost two mana. Now I know this sounds like something nitewolf9 would have said, but I mean it. This deck is all about tempo. You don't want to spend two mana, just to see your beater Dazed, Spell Snared or StoPed. Tarmogoyf is obviously too fucking crazy good to not run it, but that aside, Shusher can avoid some of the problems I mentioned above while at the same time letting you ignore CB and Chalice.

That's a way of looking at things I suppose. But what if Chalice is on the board and you haven't drawn Shusher? (3 on 60 cards isn't that much). Then you're almost completely locked out. Would you not rather spread your chances by running a mix of cc's and still have a main deck answer vs Chalice and Counterbalance? And Pridemage also answers a lot of other problem cards (Jitte comes to mind) which Shusher does not.

I personally am convinced it's possible to play around Daze and Spell Snare without sacrificing tempo.

Van Phanel

06-16-2009, 02:23 PM

That's a way of looking at things I suppose. But what if Chalice is on the board and you haven't drawn Shusher? (3 on 60 cards isn't that much). Then you're almost completely locked out. Would you not rather spread your chances by running a mix of cc's and still have a main deck answer vs Chalice and Counterbalance? And Pridemage also answers a lot of other problem cards (Jitte comes to mind) which Shusher does not.

I personally am convinced it's possible to play around Daze and Spell Snare without sacrificing tempo.

I also played two Krosan Grip main. 5 outs to Chalice sounds a lot better than three. That aside, I do see your point, but - Chalice aside - Figure is a one- and two-drop at the same time which is why I like it (with added Bonus in the lategame). In many matchups it doesn't need more than a 2/2 to apply pressure as Burn-spells are waiting. But by the definition above I guess, I'm really drifting towards Goyf-Sligh.

joey223

06-18-2009, 05:00 AM

to put in my 2 cents in the ichorid question,wheel of sun and moon really messes them up.but i also run maindeck null rod.

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-18-2009, 05:15 AM

Let my friend borrow my Zoo deck, and he top 8-ed with it and had to play me first round, and lost.

BEST ZOO LIST EVER:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
3x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
3x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard:
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Pithing Needle

So yeah i only remember a few of his matches, so here are some highlights. He drew due to time against Nassif-Level-Garbage, he beat Mono R Sligh by making him 4for1 to kill a Goyf. Then he played against WBG Aggro, and i glanced over to see him with more dudes in play and killing Jitte and Vial with Grudge. Then we played without SB since we're friend and were just messing around. Game one he turn 4-ed me, then game 2 a stabilize with Counterbalance at 2 life. Game three same thing.

I am EXTREMELY confident in my list. It hasn't missed the top 8 in 5 weeks running.

Carabas

06-18-2009, 07:08 AM

I'm not a big fan of Isamaru. Why do you like him over figure of destiny/more burn/cursed scroll/other options?

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-18-2009, 09:19 PM

When i draw him, i usually always cast him on turn one. Like Kird Ape has 2 power and 1 more toughness. He still dies to bolts and common removal. Like i see Isamaru as Kird Ape's number 5 and 6. I won't get foil ones because he is the next thing to be cut, but until i feel comfortable with the change i'll keep running him. He's a 4 damage for one mana almost always. People won't kill him immediately like they will Nacatyl.

zabuza

06-19-2009, 03:52 AM

You can play hidden herd. It´s usually a 3/3 for G or a tempo advantage for you. Another interesting option is Skyshroud elite that can substitute the isamarus.

Valtrix

06-19-2009, 04:04 AM

I don't think that hidden herd is worthwhile because it can be completely dead after the first few turns. Even though it's strong, I don't think that it's strong enough to justify that risk. I would play skyshroud before herd anyday, but even then I still wouldn't play skyshroud. I'd still say figure would be the best, but most people here don't seem to agree.

Carabas

06-19-2009, 04:06 AM

I don't think I'd play either of those over Isamaru. My only concern with the card is that it's not a very good topdeck. 10 1cc beaters seems a bit much with 21 lands. Have you tested FoD in that slot?

Also, looking at your list... How have the watchwolves been treating you? I played them for a bit, but gave them up for Gaddock Teeg. For reference, here is my list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape (considering figure in this slot)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Pridemage
3 Wooly Thoctar
2 Gaddock Teeg

1 Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll
(the above two I'm not sure on. I want to have room for more of each)

3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 chain Lightning

20 lands (9 fetches, 3 basics, 8 duals)

Valtrix

06-19-2009, 04:13 AM

Play figure, he's good. Although he does kind of fill a similar role with thoctar, so if you're running 4 figure you could perhaps cut some for some other creatures.

Also, I support Teeg in the main as well. Sure, he's sometimes a 2/2 beater, but it gives you at least some out against combo main, stops force, stops explosives, and can sometimes be a pain. What I really like most is that he frees up some sideboard slots.

I would recommend cutting a chain lightning for the 4th path. It's really really nice to have as many answers to tarmogoyf as people can play of him. It's just pretty stellar in general.

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-19-2009, 04:51 AM

@Carabas: I've tested about every card that could go in Zoo, people on TheSource doubt me, but i know what's up.

I ran FOD as a 2of when i picked the deck up, and it just slowed down the deck in the early game. I never wanted to cast him on turn 1 because i'd have to expend mana turn 2 instead of playing 2 1drops or a 2drop. Late game is when most people fear him, and against control or most other decks other than aggro, they have a way better late game than you do and then it's pointless. It's a mana sink when you need to be winning.

I love Watchwolf, i never see people running him anymore, but 3/3s are good, and he doesn't have any land stipulation that comes with him like Ape and Nacatyl. He will always be beef, no matter the situation.

EVERYONE runs Grim Lavamancer. And most people think i'm dumb for not running him, but my deck is a more heavy permanent deck so i don't get much into the graveyard ever.

Now about your list, i LOVE both Scroll and Jitte, but i ended up cutting Scroll from my list because Pridemage was printed. I still run Jitte as a 2 of, and i never am sad to see it and it's never a bad topdeck. Once you get it activated, you just win. I've compared him to Dark Confidant time and time again. And Jitte lets you steal game ones because most people don't run maindeck artifact removal.

I'm also thinking about cutting a Savannah for another spell, because though I've been consistently winning with the deck, i seem to get a bit mana flooded alot. So a bunch of 1cc beaters won't be that big of a problem.

Slay

06-19-2009, 12:19 PM

keys

06-19-2009, 01:08 PM

jimmerz213

06-19-2009, 01:16 PM

Magma Jet is really good, but it's at its best when in topdeck mode. It's perfect for Goyfsligh which has a tendency to run out of steam mid-game, but I think Helix is slightly better in Zoo because the deck is slower, more uniform, and needs to maximize all of its spells. It doesn't have oops-I-win cards like Price and Fireblast to dig for.

^This

Although, I do run 2 in my list its simply because I cant find anything better to put there. I think I may try taking them and Figure's out of mine for 4 Kird Apes (which I currently dont run).

On the Isamaru question...he is very good imo. Hes a great turn one drop yet hes not too great that they use the removal they are spending on nacatl/thoctar on him. He stays in play probably the longest out of all my creatures.

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-19-2009, 03:35 PM

Patrunkenphat7

06-19-2009, 04:19 PM

@Slay: I don't think the deck needs any deck manipulation or draw. Every card(besides lands) are threats in their own right. They aren't all Goyfs but they get the job done. Plus i can't bring myself to pay 2 mana for 2 damage, I'd rather play Incinerate at that point.

@jimmerz213: Yeah they never wanna waste removal on Isamaru until he's took a chunk out of their life, and then it's just funny. I think he is a just as good, if not better than Ape in some situations. He will be the next card getting the axe in my build when some new 1drop dude is invented.

The phrase you used 'besides lands' is the whole point of magma jet. When over a third of your deck is lands, it keeps you from getting manaswamped or it occasionally helps you get that 3rd land drop. Burn decks usually use magma jet even though every card is a threat for the sole reason of ignoring the dead land draws, so it seems as if zoo decks should also be able to benefit from the utility also.

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-19-2009, 04:32 PM

The phrase you used 'besides lands' is the whole point of magma jet. When over a third of your deck is lands, it keeps you from getting manaswamped or it occasionally helps you get that 3rd land drop. Burn decks usually use magma jet even though every card is a threat for the sole reason of ignoring the dead land draws, so it seems as if zoo decks should also be able to benefit from the utility also.

Ok lemme rephrase, just for you buddy.

I like drawing lands because i don't want random Wastelands fucking my day up. I don't like dealing 2 damage for 2 mana.

And the only 3cc card in my deck is Thoctar, as a 2of. So i'm good with 2 lands drawing business.

Plus my list in tight enough in my eyes, and I'm not cutting good card for ok ones.

Edit: Before everyone is like, "OMG THIS GUY IS A DICK HE HATES GOOD CARDS!" Magma jet is a fine card, in burn and goyf sligh. Zoo has the distinct advantage of most of it's spells being threats that attack, not burn. It doesn't run out of gas as fast as you think.

jimmerz213

06-19-2009, 04:46 PM

Ok lemme rephrase, just for you buddy.

I like drawing lands because i don't want random Wastelands fucking my day up. I don't like dealing 2 damage for 2 mana.

And the only 3cc card in my deck is Thoctar, as a 2of. So i'm good with 2 lands drawing business.

Plus my list in tight enough in my eyes, and I'm not cutting good card for ok ones.

Edit: Before everyone is like, "OMG THIS GUY IS A DICK HE HATES GOOD CARDS!" Magma jet is a fine card, in burn and goyf sligh. Zoo has the distinct advantage of most of it's spells being threats that attack, not burn. It doesn't run out of gas as fast as you think.

And too add to that, from my personal experience anyway, I like being able to do 3 (Helix) over 2 (Jet) to whatever is in my way. The way I use burn is mainly to clear a path for my creatures to get in for the kills or to maximize damage on a blocker. The lifegain off of helix doesnt hurt either.

Nelis

06-20-2009, 06:20 AM

from Cairo

06-20-2009, 12:21 PM

And too add to that, from my personal experience anyway, I like being able to do 3 (Helix) over 2 (Jet) to whatever is in my way. The way I use burn is mainly to clear a path for my creatures to get in for the kills or to maximize damage on a blocker. The lifegain off of helix doesnt hurt either.

Weird, I felt like clearing the way for attackers is where Magma Jet shined the most and that it falls short when going to the dome trying to finish the game. At least in my experience other than the mirror match there aren't very many creatures with bodies of X/3, IE. either Jet serves the purpose (Goblins, Merfolk, Dark Confidant, Trinket Mage, Qasali Pridemage) or a Bolt effect isn't enough anyway (Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought).

The same more or less applying to taking out larger blockers, Pridemage, Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Knight/Thoctar, are all swinging in for 3+ so in order for them to take out a X/5 (Tombstalker, Goyf) then you only need 2 more points of damage. I guess in cases of Kird Ape, Gaddock Teeg or Isamaru then the extra point of damage can be the difference between 1 for 2ing the larger guy or being unable to though.

Loxodon Baileyarch

06-20-2009, 05:23 PM

Weird, I felt like clearing the way for attackers is where Magma Jet shined the most and that it falls short when going to the dome trying to finish the game. At least in my experience other than the mirror match there aren't very many creatures with bodies of X/3, IE. either Jet serves the purpose (Goblins, Merfolk, Dark Confidant, Trinket Mage, Qasali Pridemage) or a Bolt effect isn't enough anyway (Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought).

The same more or less applying to taking out larger blockers, Pridemage, Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Knight/Thoctar, are all swinging in for 3+ so in order for them to take out a X/5 (Tombstalker, Goyf) then you only need 2 more points of damage. I guess in cases of Kird Ape, Gaddock Teeg or Isamaru then the extra point of damage can be the difference between 1 for 2ing the larger guy or being unable to though.

You totally have a point, but i think the argument lies not in killing dudes, but maximizing each spell. I would rather kill my opponent now instead of Scrying and waiting a turn. I know one damage is hard to argue over that, but again, maximizing damage from spells is what Zoo is about.

And jesus, this is not a flame post towards you :smile:

from Cairo

06-20-2009, 10:15 PM

Yea when going to the face the extra point of damage can definitely be relevant, occasionally for killing opposing Nacatls or Kird Apes too, the situations come up where the 1 extra damage is definitely more relevant than looking at the next two cards.

At the same time the situations come up where you're in a ground stall and are going to be doming all your burn anyway, and if they are at 4 or 5 or 7, then the scry can be completely amazing if you bring them to 2 or 3 or 5 and clear off two irrelevant cards in your search for another burn spell. Additionally digging for a Disenchant effect against a Humility or Shackles, or PTE/STP against a Dreadnought or Terravore, etc etc.

The burn argument/debate seems played out though, pretty much any of the cards being discussed are viable, if it's working for you (you as in anyone playing the deck), then maybe there's no reason to try a swap, if you find yourself wishing it was something else there's a half dozen spells that can be considered for burn spots after Lightning Bolt, as many have mentioned: Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix, Magma Jet, Incinerate, Seal of Fire, Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast, Price of Progress.

B is for Big Job

06-21-2009, 11:58 AM

I would say that if youre not playing magma jet I think seal of fire should belong on that list. other than the fact that its in enchantment and pumps goyf still doesnt make it worth it to run since besides that its still 1 mana, 2 dmg.

Valtrix

06-21-2009, 12:44 PM

Yay tournament report! I was at Monster Den yesterday for a 30ish man tournament, five rounds. Here's the list I played:

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [9E] Forest (3)
1 [R] Badlands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Vs. Scepter-chant landstill
G1: Turn 3 scepter-chant and no pridemage spells good game.
G2: He has fire//ice on a scepter, and I have Teeg, figure and bob out. He kills figure and bob with fire. However, I get hedgemage and bring it in(to the battlefield) to blow up his scepter, but not before he kills Teeg. I get two other guys out, I think Figure and bob again, and he plays humilty. Topdeck grip gets my guys in there for the win.
G3: This was somewhat close. He plays fire//ice on scepter again, using it to kill some of my guys, then tapping down my goyf. I don't see an answer soon enough, so he gets crucible, humility, and disk out. I don't see enough answers, and lose while getting him down to 8. He just counters my lightning bolts.

Round: 1-2
Total: 0-1

Round 2: Vs. The Rock
G1: I'm on the play, and I get a cat out from a basic forest. He plays veteran explorer. I don't want to kill it, but I have to, so I swing, get myself my basic plains, then play figure and teeg. He vindicates my land (because mana denial is good, and has a wasteland for another land). I have plenty of land though. He tries getting a goyf out, but I swords it. THen I get my own goyf out and that's game.
G2: I bring in my Hedge-mages over teegs. He's on the play with no first turn plays. This game was sort of a back and forth of removal, but in the end my creatures were too much.

Round: 2-0
Total: 1-1

Round 3: Vs. Aggro Loam
G1: I didn't really this matchup, since I think it's unfavorable. G1 I'm on the play, with a vial. I have two cats in hand + teeg. He gets down a goyf turn 1 from a mox. I play my teeg, he swings with goyf, I vial in cat and double block. He kills cat, then plays another goyf. Same thing again. He tries playing something else (I think bob), but I kill it. I then topdeck Jitte, equip it to Teeg, and that spells game.
G2: He plays chalice @ 1 first turn, which makes me sad. I get a pridgemage, but he gets out goyf and bob. Bob lets him see too many cards, and I can't quite keep up with him.
G3: T1 vial go, he plays T1 chalice @ one. I have cat and figure in hand, so vial makes me happy. I get out a cat, which gets terminated, then figure comes out. He plays a goyf, but I topdeck relic and make it smaller. I get Jitte eventually, and equip it to figure, keep confidant off the table. He doesn't get anything more relevant, and I remove his goyf.

Super happy about this match. It was against a really good player too. I don't think it's favorable, but I think vial helps it at least a little bit. Chalice is such a pain, and wasteland is bad. Luckily, if they don't get an engine going they can't quite make up for their card disadvantage (so many lands, mox). This is a matchup I want to test more, and also why I went for 5 graveyard hate.

Round 3: 2-1
Total: 2-1

Round 4: Vs. Faerie-goyf-still
G1: I'm actually excited about this match. Faerie-goyf is a pretty good deck, but my friend was also playing it, and in all the times we've playtested I've always won the matchup. I have the nuts draw though, with T1 vial, T2 jitte, vial in cat, turn 3 swing. All of his creatures are small, so that basically spells game.
G2: I think I side in hedge-mages for teegs. He leads with vial, I lead with vial. I get some guys, he gets some guys. But mine are just bigger. He plays a coatl, but forgets to add a counter, then the next turn makes a huge blocking mistake. I probably would have still been able to get there, but he could have got it with great topdecks.

Round 4: 3-1
Total: 3-1

Round 5: Vs. Faerie-goyf-still (Again)
G1: This sucks, because now it's against my friend, and we can't ID into top 8. We both get vial. He doesn't get a second land drop, but I get in a figure and a pridemage. I swing, but then kill his vial with pridemage. I don't remember what happened the rest of this match, but he somehow gets there.
G2: I win this one. Vial makes his standstill much less useful, I get more removal and more guys.
G3: Two spellstutters + cloud of faeries swing over me for damage, while he plays a goyf that got protected by them as well. I get some creatures on, but not before the three damage in the air has already almost killed me. Sadness, but he wins.

Round 5: 1-2
Total: 3-2

Thoughts: I like my list a lot. Vial was incredibly useful, and I was never not happy to see it. It definitely helped me win a lot of games, especially with tricks against aggro-loam. Dark confidant was likewise very beastly He was either dealt with, or the card advantage became too much from him. Running vial made him especially more useful, because getting him EOT catches people off-guard to give me at least one draw even more reliably. I know some people say "He just draws you a card then dies," but for this deck getting some draw is huge.

Figure was also really good. None of the game kird ape would have been better, and making him a 4/4 on turn 3 happened a few times, and made the difference to get damage and guys in. At no times did his need to be pumped change the outcome of the game negatively.

8 sword effects was amazing. I almost always had an answer for goyf, which was my intent of running the list like that in the first place, and that helped out immensely. It's also very useful against landstill to get rid of their stupid mishra's factories.

4 burn I didn't mind so much. I was very happy with just running lightning bolts. It's the most powerful, and was useful when I needed it to be. I know most builds run a lot more burn, but I really want to focus on the creature war more because we have such better threats that way. I always felt that with more "traditional" lists that the deck would run out of steam too fast/not powerful enough.

I also think jitte in the main is really important. Perhaps moreso for my list, but it always it terrifying to deal with, and gives you even more answers to things.

Overall a good tournament. I felt like I could have gotten T8, but it just happens. This was my first real run in a tournament with the list, so I was very pleased at how it did. Maybe next month I'll get into T8.

Carabas

06-21-2009, 08:13 PM

After testing some with Figure of Destiny in place of Kird Ape (list otherwise the same as here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=355351&postcount=571)), I've decided he's a house.

He gives the deck a second wind, after an opponent has stabilized, and swinging with an 8/8 flyer is such a great feeling. I value being able to get out of topdecking situations, and as I have 20 land, I often get him to 4/4. If I were playing less lands, I wouldn't run him, but 20 seems good in a meta with a lot of wastelands.

scrumdogg

06-21-2009, 08:28 PM

Just got back from the Source $5K Boston, went 5-3 with my Zoo list (which I will post later, when less exhausted). Losing to UGB Thresh (bad matchup - Smother, EE, Deed, Bob, Goyf...), Goblins (how?!? mana flooded Game 1, G2 die without getting land 3 for the Fallout in my hand >.<), and Goyf Sligh in Round 8. Beat UGR Thresh (not Canadian), GBW Survial, UGR Dreadstill, Dragon Stompy, & Goyf Sligh. Had a blast, was in contention for Top 16 until the end (23rd after Round 7) but wished I could have played some of the Merfolk decks there.

EDIT: List, for flaming & other Internet discussion...

4x Taiga
4x Plateau
1x Savannah
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Grim Lavamancer

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Magma Jet
4x Volcanic Fallout
3x Price of Progress
2x Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4x Krosan Grip
4x Red Elemental Blast (my son runs 4x Ethersworn Canonist here when he plays the deck as he hates combo even more than I do but I didn't feel it would be a presence at the $5K but Counter-Top & Merfolk & Dreadstill would be...and I was correct)
4x Gaddock Teeg (my only real out to combo, also useful for Landstill, Stax & as a random beater if I need to swap out something atrocious, like PoP versus Goyf Sligh/Zoo/Burn when they have Fireblast & can use PoP much better than I can...)
3x Tormods Crypt (randomly useful, New England loves the Ichorid, and Relic screws my own plans...)

All my notes are home, but I plan to include a report later. Some observations, I expected a large presence of Tribal, especially Merfolk, and Counter-Top, with decent levels of Ichorid and Dreadstill (it is Massachusetts...) & some of everything else. This shaped the build of the deck in several ways. No Helix, no Path - I did not want to be reliant on my third color at all in a field I expected to have significant Wasteland & Stifle action. Also, I felt the extra burn/reach would compensate for having more trouble with Dreadnought. Goyfs didn't bother me as exalted makes mine attack better and in a deck chock full of burn, blocking meant I could trade a burn spell for a Goyf. In the event I face Tombstalker (which didn't happen all day) I have no problem 2-1ing myself to get rid of it. On that note, Chain should definitely have been Helix, the instant speed & varied CC would have made the deck better & the lifegain would have been relevant several times. Also, given that Zoo/Goyf Sligh were EVERYWHERE, having Chain thrown back was a relevant concern all day. I did not miss Path much & the places where it would have been useful, it would never have resolved (stupid Counter-Top...). 4x Fallout maindeck, loved them, proud of the choice, would not change it all. Even though I faced (1) Tribal deck all day (and ironically...lost...) it was directly responsible for a number of victories all day and the best story of my tournament as well as being completely unexpected by my opponents Game 1.

Back to work, commence flaming :)

PS I'm also excited to see how Alix approached Zoo, got to watch late glimpses of a couple games but was busy playing most of the time. Of course, Alix is a better player than most as well, which helps, but I would also be interested to see his matchups.

hungryLIKEALION

06-24-2009, 05:06 PM

I've been working on this deck a lot lately, and here is the newest list I've come up with...

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [US] Forest (1)
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CNF] Hellspark Elemental
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
3 [FNM] Fireblast
4 [CNF] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

It's possible I should replace Gaddock Teeg with Canonist in the SB since I'm running Fireblast.

But anyway, I like this list a lot. It's very fast, very aggressive, and still pretty resilient. Figure has surpised me with his usefulness in testing, but I'm not convinced 4 is the right number, and I kind of miss my lavamancers, so I might bring them back in place of a few figs.

Hellspark Elemental is actually amazing. Nobody wants to trade a creature for him, so he's usually just 6 damage straight up. I've got nothing but good things to say about him so far.

Turn 3 goldfishes happen around 10% of the time, turn 4 around 50%. It's REALLY powerful. And a lot of those goldfishes include the possibility of throwing a path down on an opposing goyf, so I'd say I couldn't be much happier with the list atm.

I intend to see about putting reckless charge in the deck, probably in the hellspark slot. I also would run Chain Lightning, but I can't seem to get my hands on any.

B is for Big Job

06-24-2009, 11:23 PM

Hellspark Elemental is actually amazing. Nobody wants to trade a creature for him, so he's usually just 6 damage straight up. I've got nothing but good things to say about him so far.

I intend to see about putting reckless charge in the deck, probably in the <b>hellspark slot<\b>. I also would run Chain Lightning, but I can't seem to get my hands on any.

I dont understand that, you give it such praise but then you want to take it out?

reckless charge is alright, a bad topdeck if you need like a FB or pop to seal the game. I would rather play chain just because if you topdeck it, its not bad, kills a blocker or to the dome whereas if you draw charge you need a creature and them to not have a blocker.

Sporto

06-25-2009, 02:33 PM

Hey I'm new to Source but a long time Legacy player, I placed 14th at Starcity 5K on Sunday....here's what I am working with...

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar

Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Magma Jet
2 Path To Exile
2 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries
3 Rift Bolt

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Gaddock Teeg

I choose Rift over Chain, it's sneakier than one would expect, people played into it all day long, especially in the mirror match...I ended up loosing to UGr Thresh (he just had a counter for everything every time) and an insane Planeswalker control deck that took sixth place
The only changes I made afterwards are -2 StP +2 PtE it just seems counterproductive to give them life back after casting damage spells

Valtrix

06-25-2009, 09:04 PM

So, I was wondering if isochron scepter might be any sort of playable in a zoo build, since some people mentioned running cursed scroll at one point, as well as there's a lot of disgrepency between how to fill the "last few slots" of decks. Most decks run at least 12 great copies of instants (bolt, helix, path), all of which are pretty insane on a scepter. However, the tradeoff is that this is a little slower, but the potential rewards seem pretty good. Removing every creature they play, 3 damage a turn, or 3 damage+3 life? Why not. It feels a lot like Jitte to me--2 to play, 2 to activate, requiring another card to be useful, and incredible once online. Most people don't have answers to it G1 and if you fear removal you can side it out in favor of other things. (This mostly stems from me wanting to make a compromise between burn and zoo that doesn't cost me $500 :P)

Also Sporto, path is better than swords in general. You should probably run 4 path before you consider any swords to plowshares.

DragoFireheart

06-25-2009, 10:56 PM

The thing about specter is that it opens up the possibility of being 2-for-oned and is a dead draw if you top deck it.

Cursed Scroll doesn't need anything other than a card in your hand.

B is for Big Job

06-25-2009, 11:15 PM

yeah, scepter is just asking to get 2 - for - 1ed thanks to grip. scroll still rocks, i havent played it in my build for awhile but its hard enough to find space in the deck.

TOGITwill

06-27-2009, 01:07 AM

Agreed. Current Zoo builds make all of the Artifact/Enchantment hate that the opponent plays dead cards. Why let them become useful?

B is for Big Job

06-27-2009, 07:51 AM

Agreed. Current Zoo builds make all of the Artifact/Enchantment hate that the opponent plays dead cards. Why let them become useful?

heh, the problem with that statement is that it hates on scroll even though you do speak the truth. I run jitte in my build so i take it for granted that its getting hated on 2nd game

Snief

06-28-2009, 11:22 AM

Last week I played following list and ended 6th of 42 with 4-1-1:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
2 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Magma Jet

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Only Game I lost was vs. GW Enchantress, where I screwed it fetching for Savannah instead of Plateau, with Fireblast in my hand and him on 3 life. The turn after he plays Solitary Confinement and 5 turns later I lose. I drawed last round to be in Top8, he was playing Sligh and I would have lost this match (haha, lucky!).
So, the only changes I would make is -1 Savannah -1 Taiga and +2 Mountains. I always got 4-6dmg when I played PoP. And pls test Magma Jet, it was totally worth playing it.

Kird Ape

07-01-2009, 12:48 AM

With the nature of the blue decks, mainly those including counterbalance, I question running more burn than creatures. Sneaking a burn spell in is never going to be better than putting a threat on the table. Unless it's PoP... combined with a fireblast you are easily looking at a 10-2 swing. Path to exile is another card that needs to be in our builds instead of swords. Another suggestion to those running fewer burn spells, horizon canopy. I think it's underplayed in most builds and is worth looking at.

Snief

07-01-2009, 03:35 AM

Horizon Canopy would be playable, but you can´t fetch for it. That´s its big downside.

Cire

07-01-2009, 09:37 AM

So with M2010 Heres a list i want to test, it includes the following 2 cards which i thought had potential in this deck;

Mold Adder G
Creature — Fungus Snake
Whenever an opponent casts a blue or black spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Mold Adder.
1/1

The snake grows fast against any blue deck making it at least equal to a turn 1 Wild Nacatl or better. Against non-blue/decks its terrbile but even runnnig 2 main would probably be a major threat to blue/black decks. And lets face it most competive decks run those colors.

and

Harm's Way W
Instant
The next 2 damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a permanent you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player instead.

harms way not only protects your creatures from burn it can act as a white shock. This basically translates into more than 3 damage for 1 mana. How? well it protects your creature for another attack so you can deal damage with that siad protected creature that you otherwise couldn't +2.

Heres the list i'm going to test;

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Mold Adder
2 Woolly Thoctar

-19

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Harm's Way

-22

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

-19

oneiros76

07-01-2009, 03:50 PM

Has anyone had any luck with Null Rod? In testing its a beating against ct goyf (hits top shackles) and does bad things to merfolk (gets vial jitte relic of projenitus), although the lists differ so much with merfolk in whether or not they run jitte or relic that choke might just be better (choke does a decent job of shutting down the mana required to power out dudes/jitte and multiple mutavault activations. Null rod also gets Engineered Explosives which is very helpful. Also, although combo will probably decline a bit since LED is worse now, Null Rod shuts down mana producing artifacts/ belcher.
Siding Null Rod and Kgrips feels like overboarding against artifacts if you are running Pridemages mb though, and if you take out Kgrip you lose a great weapon against Dreadstill which is showing up more often now. Any thoughts?

Cire- Mold Adder seems ok, at his best he's a bit of quick damage at first and gets tarmogoyf sized fairly quickly, but a chump late game and a dead card against decks not running u or b. In a deck like the one you listed he's probably better than kird ape mb since you make up for him being worse than ape in the zoo matchup with the fact that you run helix and harms way.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-03-2009, 02:15 AM

Has anyone had any luck with Null Rod?

Read the thread. Everyone has tested it. It's good enough to be maindeck.

I wouldn't run Grip, Null Rod, and Pridemage at the same time though. Too much hate.

Also, that fog card seems terrible, at that point I'd rather be running Magma Jet, which is better utility. All your creatures have 3 toughness anyway, so i could only really see it making a difference in the Goyf wars, which isn't worth it.

Molder Adder seems too conditional as well. I don't like 1/1s for 1.

Kird Ape

07-04-2009, 01:02 AM

Horizon Canopy would be playable, but you can´t fetch for it. That´s its big downside.

This is the arguement for not playing a land that would otherwise be a dead draw late game? The fact is we don't need more than 3-4 lands on the board at a time. Even with 9 fetches, you're going to see 1 untimley land pop up and you're going to be like, crap, I wish this was (insert game winning card here). This lets us trade the dead turn into some noise. Many of the lists I have seen are running mulitple savannahs anyway, so cutting them back to 1 and using canopy in place is not going to screw up the mana base.
Check it:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

We got enough land to recover from mana denile and the utility to overcome some mana flooding. Please note that my build is not burn heavy (12 burn spells).

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-04-2009, 04:29 AM

This is the arguement for not playing a land that would otherwise be a dead draw late game? The fact is we don't need more than 3-4 lands on the board at a time. Even with 9 fetches, you're going to see 1 untimley land pop up and you're going to be like, crap, I wish this was (insert game winning card here). This lets us trade the dead turn into some noise. Many of the lists I have seen are running mulitple savannahs anyway, so cutting them back to 1 and using canopy in place is not going to screw up the mana base.
Check it:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

We got enough land to recover from mana denile and the utility to overcome some mana flooding. Please note that my build is not burn heavy (12 burn spells).

I played Horizon Canopy as a 1of when i first picked up the deck. It eventually got to the point where if it was in my opening hand i never wanted to drop it and cast Nacatyl or anything like that. I switched it up with a singleton Bloodstained Mire to help land consistency, and it's worked out a whole lot better. I don't see how the lists with three Canopies do well. It fucks Fireblast, Ape, and Nacatyl up.

And i mean worst case drawin a fetch late game thins your deck out, which i don't wanna get into BS percentages, but it makes me feel better drawing a fetch in the world of Wasteland.

troopatroop

07-04-2009, 11:02 AM

I don't see how the lists with three Canopies do well. It fucks Fireblast, Ape, and Nacatyl up.

And i mean worst case drawin a fetch late game thins your deck out, which i don't wanna get into BS percentages, but it makes me feel better drawing a fetch in the world of Wasteland.

I think you're wrong on this one. Being able to turn your land into a cantrip is just incredible in a deck like this, with no draw otherwise. Wild Nacatyl and Kird Ape need a single Plateau and Taiga to be big. I don't see how playing 1 or even 3 Horizon Canopy is really going to do that much damage. Once you've accumulated any assortment of lands, those guys are going to be big anyways. You say it messes with Fireblast? The only situation I can think of where this may be common is if you're playing 3 or 4 of them, and you're trying to cast them both. Alix Hatfield had some success running only 2, and seeing that drawing both is a pretty rare occurance, It shouldn't be difficult to get those 2 mountains at all. Especially if you're using Fireblast to end the game. Deck thinning is nothing like drawing cards, because when you're trying to draw burn for the game, that fetchland does nothing, where as Horizon Canopy at least gives you a shot.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-04-2009, 01:12 PM

troopatroop

07-04-2009, 08:14 PM

Have you tested Canopy?

You respond with this? Yes I have. I only put the deck together recently, but in the games I've played it's been great. Care to argue my points?

from Cairo

07-04-2009, 10:18 PM

I think you're wrong on this one. Being able to turn your land into a cantrip is just incredible in a deck like this, with no draw otherwise. Wild Nacatyl and Kird Ape need a single Plateau and Taiga to be big. I don't see how playing 1 or even 3 Horizon Canopy is really going to do that much damage. Once you've accumulated any assortment of lands, those guys are going to be big anyways. You say it messes with Fireblast? The only situation I can think of where this may be common is if you're playing 3 or 4 of them, and you're trying to cast them both. Alix Hatfield had some success running only 2, and seeing that drawing both is a pretty rare occurance, It shouldn't be difficult to get those 2 mountains at all. Especially if you're using Fireblast to end the game. Deck thinning is nothing like drawing cards, because when you're trying to draw burn for the game, that fetchland does nothing, where as Horizon Canopy at least gives you a shot.

When it works, it's awesome. IE, you get a Taiga and Plateau to stay on the board, you play out your hand, you start running low on gas, and what would be a dead top deck is a cantrip. When it doesn't work, it's not so awesome. IE, it's one of 2 opening hand Lands, your fetch or dual gets, Stifled or Wasted, you're stuck with a land that can't cast Ape, Grim, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, (alot of the remainder of the deck is 2cc so you're options are even more limited; no Goyf, no Pridemage, no PoP) etc, and won't pump Nacatl or Ape if you get them into play.

Admittedly a fair amount of the time it's someplace in the middle, maybe you use it for mana for a turn or two, then a little later pop it for an extra card, which isn't bad at all.

Once you've accumulated any assortment of lands, those guys are going to be big anyways.

This particularly is my problem with it. When you have to deal with it prior to accumulating your assortment of lands. Particularly when under disruption of Wasteland. The card is occupying a Land slot in the deck so in a 20 land deck, odds are 3 in the first 9 cards, when Horizon Canopy is one of those 3 land I more likely than not find myself wishing it was Bloodstained Mire.

The card has been too swingy for me. I really don't like the fact that it's most detrimental in the early game, which while important for any deck, is really where alot of Zoo's power comes from. If your own cards are tripping you up, it becomes even less likely that enough pressure is applied early.

That said, others clearly have had success with Horizon Canopy though so it's worth playing around with to see if/how many one likes.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-05-2009, 03:09 AM

You respond with this? Yes I have. I only put the deck together recently, but in the games I've played it's been great. Care to argue my points?

I'm not much of an arguer myself, but the points i make make sense.

It isn't worth it to weaken your early game, when this deck thrives, for a land that could just as well be dead. I don't see how hurting Ape, Nacatyl, and Fireblast is even worth it. I ran it as a one of back in the day and i would never suggest running more than that. A 1of seems suitable.

People wonder why I'm so scared of Wasteland, Stifle, manadenial shenanigans, and it's because they ARE out there, randomly waiting to fuck up your day. I play 21 lands in my build and i don't mind drawing more lands because my opponent could open with Waste, Sinkhole.

Mana denial has always pissed me off since i started playing, and Legacy made it worse.

This argument has too many angles too. Metagame, different builds, etc.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to put across here though. If you're meta is all Waste-free then go ahead and run the hell out of em, just don't get pissed when drawing Horizon Canopy ruins your day.

Snief

07-05-2009, 03:43 AM

It isn't worth it to weaken your early game, when this deck thrives, for a land that could just as well be dead. I don't see how hurting Ape, Nacatyl, and Fireblast is even worth it. I ran it as a one of back in the day and i would never suggest running more than that. A 1of seems suitable.

QFT. I mean, as a 1of, I would consider playing Canopy, but never more than that.
Another question for me is, why is everybody playing 20-21 Lands? I´m playing 19 (of which 5 are basic at this point) and I was never manascrewed, not against TempoTresh, Deadguy or other mana denial playing decks. So, could anybody explain?

Carabas

07-05-2009, 04:15 AM

I play 20, because I like to have a lategame plan if things fall apart. For me, this manifests itself in 4 figure of destiny, 2 Cursed scroll. Both of these work best with a fair amount of lands, so I use 20. 0 of them are Horizon Canopy.

oneiros76

07-05-2009, 03:08 PM

With Horizon Canopy I think as long as you keep the fetch count high to hit whatever land you need to pump guys as often as possible I think a 2-of is ok.
20-21 Lands is to help keep up with wastelands and stifles, because in 3-color zoo just getting wasteland-ed once or twice or losing a turn or two of aggression can lose you the game. Also if you want to jam basics in there (avoid moon effects and total wasteland/price of progress blowout) 20-21 is the number that comes out naturally. like with
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
you wouldn't really want to cut anything, maybe a taiga or canopy if you really wanted 20. It hits 21 to be able to support Pridemage and Thoctar also.

Baileyarch- with the high land count and no Canopies do you ever sb out a land or two vs zoo/ aggro?

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-05-2009, 06:20 PM

Baileyarch- with the high land count and no Canopies do you ever sb out a land or two vs zoo/ aggro?

To tell ya the truth, I'm the only person in my weekly 25 to 30 person tourney that actually plays Zoo.

Goyf Sligh is played, but I'm not scared of that matchup at all. As long as i watch how i fetch so PoP doesn't fuck me I'm fine. Your threats stay around theirs don't.

Plus with my Sideboard, i couldn't think of anything to put in except for maybe Ancient Grudge in those kinda matchups.

Obfuscate Freely

07-05-2009, 10:44 PM

You guys really aren't thinking about Canopy correctly, at all. The reason it is amazing is because you can use it to "cheat" your manabase numbers; the card actually lets you run extra lands.

I've been doing a lot of testing against decks with mana denial elements (there are a lot of them currently in the format, after all), and many of those matchups are in Zoo's favor, as long as the mana denial doesn't cause a blow-out. Obviously, one way to help prevent that scenario is to add more lands to the deck, but that has the drawback of lessening the threat density, which has a negative impact in practically every matchup.

What Horizon Canopy is is an almost tailor-made solution to this problem. It is a beautifully-designed compromise between running more lands and maintaining a deck's threat density. It taps for mana when you need it, and cycles for an extra card when you don't. You can add Horizon Canopy to any deck as an additional mana source without increasing the likelihood of mana flood, because an unnecessary Canopy can easily replace itself with an extra draw.

Based on my testing, the correct number of lands for a Zoo deck is somewhere between nineteen and twenty. That is where you have the best odds of avoiding both manascrew and manaflood. However, with three or four Horizon Canopies incorporated into the manabase, you can easily run 21 or 22 lands without the expected decrease in threat density. My current set-up, with three Horizon Canopies and 21 lands total, is actually less vulnerable to either manascrew or manaflood than a list without Canopies, because it simultaneously has more mana sources and fewer "normal" lands that can't cycle into business.

There are, of course, some trade-offs to playing with Horizon Canopy. Although it taps for two of Zoo's colors (so lucky!), it doesn't tap for red, the most important one. This means that a manabase with Canopy may have fewer red sources than it would have otherwise (mine, for example, has fifteen red sources with Canopy, but would have sixteen or seventeen without it, even if it would have fewer lands total). This is acceptable, but finding the right balance is a matter of testing. I have tried playing four Canopies in a list with only twenty lands total, which meant that there was only room for thirteen red sources. This gave the deck tremendous threat density, but it made Fireblast unreliable, and it did indeed cause some problems powering Apes and Nacatls in the face of mana denial, as some of you have suggested.

However, since I have arrived at the current arrangement, I have noticed a greater resiliency to mana denial, thanks to the extra lands, and I pop Canopies all of the time in order to draw into game-winning spells. I'm completely sold on the card, both theoretically and through experience. Can anybody who has tested a similar list tell me they aren't?

beastman

07-05-2009, 11:19 PM

This kind of logic is why I listen when Alix talks.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-06-2009, 01:53 AM

Yeah I'm thinking about cutting a land, and It'll be a Savannah before anything else. That's what kills me about Canopy too, It's just another Savannah, and that is the weakest dual in the deck ya know? I just found myself in situations where i had to decide to cast spells or pop Canopy for a card i couldn't play in the same turn. Idk i totally see the good points that everyone are making though.

I'm gonna give Lavamancer a shot too i think. I wouldn't ever run him as over a 3 of because multiples would be crappy, but if i cut a land and my 2 Isamaru, which are bad in multiples too, i could fit in Lavamancer.

Thoughts?

Mountain Man

07-06-2009, 02:02 AM

Alix, could you post your current list please?

Jak

07-06-2009, 02:09 AM

I just found myself in situations where i had to decide to cast spells or pop Canopy for a card i couldn't play in the same turn. Idk i totally see the good points that everyone are making though.

This really doesn't make sense to me. If you have something to play, play it. Why would you want to pop Canopy? It's there to function as a land until you need the card or as a card to "cycle" if you draw it late.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-06-2009, 02:12 AM

This really doesn't make sense to me. If you have something to play, play it. Why would you want to pop Canopy? It's there to function as a land until you need the card or as a card to "cycle" if you draw it late.

Damage from it IS relevant. And digging for an answer as well. That's what i meant. Sorry i didn't clarify.

Snief

07-06-2009, 10:03 AM

I think I will try 1 Canopy in my 19 land-build, obv instead of a Savannah. I feel that 19 lands are the way to go for me and I think I´m going to try Hellspark Elemental instead of Kird Ape. I´ll let you know the results.

oneiros76

07-06-2009, 10:45 AM

Baileyarch- lavamancer has always been nuts for me, while you can kind of choke on him when you don't have enough red mana for spells plus his activation, the damage that he can generate directly to your opponent definitely makes up for it. Also in multiples you're right he can be awkward, but you can also get situations where you have two, activate 1 or 2 eot, next turn Fireblast+activate them both again. He's incredibly important in merfolk matchups too, I was running 3 for a while and switched to 4 because of merfolk. He's able to perform targeted removal on their lords, where other Isamaru types just swing in while they build up their horde and run you over, and keeping up with removing their lords is more important now that they're adding 4 more to their list (maybe?). His ability to trade his activation for a creature is really valuable also, and in a last ditch Ichorid situation he can blast himself (;_;).
Snief- Definitely let us know, whenever I test out Hellspark or Marauders I always find myself wishing they were more permanent cheap pounders though.

CB4SN13

07-06-2009, 02:17 PM

Regarding playing around daze, does and should this deck play around daze? Or are there only specific situations to do that? (eg. playing burn spells once a turn, ensuring you have that one mana to pay for daze)

I don't ever see this deck playing around Daze in the early turns by forfeiting early creature drops. Am I correct? Or dead wrong?

Nelis

07-06-2009, 04:43 PM

I usually do not play around daze turn one. If they counter my Nacatl that's fine by me because then they're behind one land and I just love to play my Grim Lavamancer on turn 2 with only FOW as my opponents out. But the other way around happens too depending on the deck my opponent is playing.

Some examples:
Vs Merfolk its almost always Nacatl first and then Lavamancer.
Vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh its usually the other way around. Because Nacatl is such a good beater (early game) and Lavamancer can't target mongeese.

When I want to play Tarmogoyf I almost always do take Daze into account because he's such a big beater (most times) and I want it to stick.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-06-2009, 08:13 PM

@: CB4SN13
I've done alot of testing with NLU and other countertop variants, and them countering your turn one Nacatyl is bad. It allows you to race them and perhaps burn them out after they have set up.

Playing around Daze is risky, because they might just have the Counterbalance or Shackles they need, and then you're fucked. Those are the only two cards i worry about while playing around Daze to be honest. It's best to bait their counters with your mediocre spells, and then try and land a bomb. If they have the FOW then they have it, too bad. Magic is partially a game of luck.

@: oneiros76
Yeah he seems to be a bit on the ridiculous side. I hardly ever worry about the Merfolk matchup. I've only lost once with Zoo that i can recall. And that was with him chaining Standstills and the Merfolk Ringleaders, so It's understandable. I don't run Fireblast either haha.

Valtrix

07-06-2009, 09:08 PM

Yeah, with this deck you "play around daze" by thinking about what's less useful to be countered. You try and bait them to counter your "less useful" spells, and then lay down better things. It's always dependent on the build, hand, and what you're playing against, but it's okay for your things to get countered.

It's likewise okay, because then you're buying yourself time to lay down a pridemage or some other strong beaters in the face of their counterbalance, or straight up just getting more tempo than them. Force of will can likewise be useful, because it gives us a chance for some card advantage with is good for us. Most of the time I just get upset when pridemage is countered, because he's really your best guy in most blue matchups, killing problem artifacts/enchantments, and lettting your other creatures swing through to contend with goyf.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-07-2009, 07:16 PM

I was thinking about Lavamancer, and idk wtf i was thinking about adding him. My list is WAY too permanent heavy. I'll prolly drop a land for a 4th Chain or PTE.

Seems WAY better.

LaphroaigFan

07-08-2009, 01:14 AM

Grim Lavamancer is insane. He lets you win Tarmogoyf wars. If you don't have a goyf, he'll help shrink your opponent's goyf. You can kill off plenty of small creatures or combine it with a bolt to knock off a bigger dude without expending a second burn spell. And sacrificing 2 mountains for Fireblast helps feed your Lavamancer's ability.

Anyone else tried out 1 or 2 Ajani Vengeant? I know what you're all thinking and lots of people have told me Ajani was way too slow. I've played with him in a few local tournaments. It's like an extra Lightning Helix + draws some damage away from you. It gets past Chalice, Spell Snare, and Counterbalance. Be interesting to know if anyone else has had luck with Ajani.

(I run 2 Jitte and 2 Ajani in place of 4 Chain Lightning.)

keys

07-08-2009, 01:44 AM

I think Sarkhan Vol is better than Ajani if you're considering planeswalkers.

Valtrix

07-08-2009, 01:49 AM

I don't think that we really have any planeswalkers that make sense in zoo right now...

Ajani Vengeant seems worse than lightning helix, since more often than not that's probably about all the use you'd get out of him. Plus, the four cost can be a huge detriment.

Sarkhan Vol seems likewise not so useful, because of the 4 cost, but more importantly the fact that he doesn't really do any good by himself, and he's not easy to protect. However, the fact that he can threaten can maybe be useful? I just don't think that the 4 cost justifies their use when we have so many cheaper, and more powerful threats to be played with.

LaphroaigFan

07-08-2009, 02:40 AM

I definitely run 4 Lightning Helix. Usually, when I land Ajani, he gets to helix twice. Ajani has helped in my matches so far, but I limit him to 2, maximum.

Here's the list I run.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Forest

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-08-2009, 07:35 AM

@:LaphroaigFan
A 4cc spell in Zoo, that totally describes what this deck does. Cheap efficient threats and cheap efficient burn. I mean right?

Sorry, but that idea is just bad. If you care that much about the control matchup, which you shouldn't, then run Shusher main or something else. And i mean, i don't think ANYONE has had some REAL success with any planeswalker in Zoo.

Also.. Lavamancer is bad in my build. I realized that, and i know his pros and cons, people have been jerking off to him on here for a while.

@everyone else:
I really don't know why more people don't play maindeck Jitte in this deck. It's an auto include in any aggro deck, it is that damn good. People swear up and down by Dark Confidant, weakening the already semi-weak mana base of Zoo, but don't run Jitte, which is just as powerful!?

beastman

07-08-2009, 01:23 PM

I dont believe Bob has any place in this deck, The mana base is too shaky already. As for jitte, its good against other aggro decks, but thats all, so i would keep them in the board.

Snief

07-08-2009, 02:08 PM

Also.. Lavamancer is bad in my build. I realized that, and i know his pros and cons, people have been jerking off to him on here for a while.

I absolutely feel the same about Lavamancer.

So, after testing, this is my new list. I wanted a deck to be as fast as possible and this is the result after tuning/testing:
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah (still not convinced of Horizon Canopy)
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained MIre
3 Windswept Heath

4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Goyf
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Thoctar

2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet

SB
3 PtE
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm/Fallout
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist

My Choices:
I changed PtE from Main to SB and Relic had to go. So I´m accepting Ichorid as a bad matchup, where I have to be lucky (or faster, sure! :tongue: ).
PtE often is a dead card mainboard for me, so i removed it and replaced it with Hellspark Elemental which I´m totally convinced of. Noone wants to block this guy, you still can deal damage under standstill and normally he is 6dmg for 4mana.
I don´t play Jitte because I think it´s too slow. That sounds ridiculous, but it´s the same for me like playing a planeswalker in this deck; i don´t like it. VS all aggro decks you should anyway have a positive matchup (except monored, maybe) where you don´t need Jitte at all. Plus you have Helizes.

Kird Ape

07-12-2009, 12:39 AM

I'd look into cutting a Mire and running the 4th Foothills, it's pulling the 2 colors you use most. Since you're heavy burn Canopy would not be good as more than a 2 of in this build.

I'm curious as to why you think Ichorid is a bad MU. Doesn't Hellspark do his job, then remove their bridges? What about burning one of your guys?

In what MU has PtE been a dead card? There is always something over there that I don't want to see and double bonus if they don't have any basics.

I thought you said you wanted your deck "as fast as possible"? Curious that you run 2 chain and 3 helix. Chain allows you to burn their guy, then cast another one drop on turn 2. = FAST

You are also heavy burn and afraid of lavamancer? I would not dismiss him so quickly, especially with 8 fetches and all that burn. How many times have you played with him and of those games how many times was he INOP? I run a more creature heavy list, but can still activate my mancers 2-4 times a game.

Snief

07-12-2009, 06:11 AM

Ok, Ichorid is not a bad matchup, but there are better ones. :smile:
PtE was dead against Landstill, ANT and Enchantress. In all matchups a burn card would have been better. I don´t say that PtE isn´t a nice spell but I prefer burn at the moment.
I tested Lavamancer and he dealt ~4 dmg every game, but when I tested Kird Ape he always hit for ~6dmg, maybe with support from Pridemage. The downside of Lavamancer for me is, that you don´t wanna (or can´t) beat with him if you don´t have 2 cards in your grave. Maybe I´ll give him a try again after the next tournament.

lyracian

07-13-2009, 05:24 AM

What are peoples thoughts on the new Great Sable Stag?
Compared to Woolly Thoctar Is a 3/3 body for 3 too weak, or does the double Protection & uncounterable offer some value?

Thrasher

07-13-2009, 07:03 AM

i top8ed yesterday with this list: ( i didn't have money for other fetches/duals)
// Lands
3 [R] Taiga
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Plateau
1 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [OD] Plains (3)
4 [MR] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar

// Spells
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [VI] Fireblast
3 [EX] Price of Progress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

I won against a land-denial GBw and aggro loam,lose to bant control(kitchen finks,jitte,countertop xD) and to ubg landstill(manaflood 11 lands with 5 fetch i GY),then i won to another deck but don't remember the game
i ended 3-0-2

hungryLIKEALION

07-13-2009, 08:55 PM

This is my current list...

// Lands
2 [U] Savannah
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [A] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [EVE] Figure of Destiny

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [REW] Lightning Helix
3 [FNM] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CNF] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

I'm pretty fond of it, I gotta run right now but I'll talk about it later.

beastman

07-13-2009, 09:06 PM

Valtrix

07-13-2009, 09:26 PM

I agree. I mean, if you're in a situation where a free fireblast accelerates your plan to a win, I figure you'd probably be able to win next turn with a burn spell that gets in virtually the same damage. No need to commit yourself so much for a finisher, when it will really hurt you in the games that it doesn't end the game.

I think that 3 Jitte is still fine to run. It really is that good. Whether or not it's better than 2, I'm not sure. But I definitely think that everybody should run at least 2 in the main.

beastman

07-13-2009, 09:39 PM

I know for a fact that knight has no place in the deck either, you want cost efficient, fast creatures. Knight is niether, you dont even have utility lands for zoo to want to find.

Carabas

07-13-2009, 10:07 PM

This is my current list...

Only 9 1-drops seems a bit low, even with 13 I can have problems.

22 lands also seems like a lot, although you do have 3 horizon canopies. Do 3 canopies ever give you problems when casting fireblast?

Raptor

07-14-2009, 12:37 PM

Hey guys, I have some questions about this deck. (RGw Zoo)
Especially, the pros and cons of this deck over Goyf sligh. I've tried to find some opinions on match ups, but I didn't really found one.

First, in what metagame would a Zoo be played over Goyf Sligh
Second, in a metagame full of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, and blue based deck, (Survival with blue, Merfolk, Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Land still), should a zoo or goyf sligh be played.

Also, would it be a good choice, running 2 shusher maindeck in this kind of metagame.

Thanks

jimmerz213

07-14-2009, 12:47 PM

I know for a fact that knight has no place in the deck either, you want cost efficient, fast creatures. Knight is niether, you dont even have utility lands for zoo to want to find.

Actually, I kinda disagree with you on that. I recently switched from Thoctars to Knights to see how it worked. I havent tested it a whole lot yet but there were a couple games I won because it was a Knight and not a Thoctar.

He may not drop 3rd turn as big as Thoctar, but he can easily get bigger. There was one game I was on the defensive, used him to snag a fetch land, used that to find another land and he just got a cool +2/+2 and eventually led me to win. Its a really neat mechanic and Id say test it out before dismissing it completely.

oneiros76

07-14-2009, 03:13 PM

Knight of the Reliquary is probably better than thoctar as goyf 5-x, but really only if you're not running Lavamancer, who tends to chew up the lands. Knight is easier on the manabase than Thoctar, can be bigger, and can fix your mana if necessary. Works well with Canopies and Fireblast too. Knight can't be red-blasted.

Finn

07-14-2009, 04:11 PM

Hey guys. I don't really follow this thread, but I built Zoo a few months ago ago, and I noticed that really nobody else is making it the way I did. I am just now getting around to talking about it. The card choices worked for me (from memory here), but then I did't stick with it very long.

4 Wild Nacatl (Kird Ape before Nacatl came out)
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Noble Hierarch (Birds of Paradise before Hierarch came out)

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Qasali Pridemage (Oblivion Ring before Pridemage came out)
4 Serra Avenger

4 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fireblast
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Taiga
4 Savannah
4 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath

sb:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Orim's Chant
4 Tormod's Crypt
--------------------------------------

Flying Serra Avengers and Rancor were very important to the deck. Both were magnified when the opponent had Tarmogoyf in play.

Jotun Grunt provides a modicum of disruption against a variety of decks. And yeah, it doesn't play well with Tarmos, but in practice this is a plus in a lot of cases. You can use it to bait counters and removal against all the opponents playing Tarmos when you are holding one yourself. And with Rancor and all the reach in a Zoo deck, even a couple of hits is a big deal, so your opponents pretty much have to deal with it.

I understand that the popular play is to eschew STP for PTE, but I would wager that this is a mistake and eventually we will all recognize it as such. I imagine someone will be taking me up on this, and that is OK. But Lavafrogg and I have spoken at length on the topic, and ultimately we agree pretty strongly against PTE.

Kird Ape is utter crap in this deck due to the abundance of better plays. I will never use it again.

Noble Hierarch makes the deck a bit more dynamic and a lot more explosive. It is part of a strategy. Lemme explain.

Zoo is an extremely linear and predictable deck to face. That is a big weakness against smart opponents. I have tried to eliminate a lot of that with my choices. By not going for Thoctar (I had him at first and switched to Jotun Grunt), and by including Rancor, and Hierarch, the deck is far more explosive and gives the opponent extra opportunities to make mistakes and bad guesses about what you are holding. The mana curve is very low, increasing the odds of playing several creatures on turns 2, 3, and 4, and leaving plenty for Figure of Destiny mana.

The sb is pretty raw and not tuned for anything in particular.
----------------------------------------
Now, there are some weaknesses incurred here. Engineered Explosives hurt a lot. Perhaps Teeg in the sb is a good plan. Counterbalance is similarly difficult. Between the Grips and Pridemages, though, I was reasonably successful at keeping it from owning me in the few games I encountered it. But it was still hard when I got a slow start.

-----------------------------------------

I am assuming that my perspective is unique not from some vast knowledge, but just because I am the only person I know of playing the deck this way. Has anyone else gone this route? Was he successful? And finally, can anyone see any glaring weaknesses that I simply never came across from my limited experince?

Thanks

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-14-2009, 05:05 PM

@ Finn:
I LOVE that list. I've been trying to work on some sort of WG aggro deck for a while, and that seems good. How have no basics worked for you? And the only suggestion for the deck i would make is, cut the Heirarchs, Exalted is good, but you could run another Pridemage or more removal, and plus the mana doesn't seem needed ya know?

xycsoscyx

07-15-2009, 07:24 PM

@Finn: The biggest question I can ask is why?

Flying Serra Avengers and Rancor were very important to the deck. Both were magnified when the opponent had Tarmogoyf in play.

For Serra, do you only say that because of the flying, or is there some other reason why it's very important to the deck? I can understand Rancor in general (it pushes your Goyfs past your opponents Goyfs), but you lumped Rancor and Serra together, any particular reason (they seem to serve very different roles)? Also, do you ever have a problem casting Serra, since you can only cast her starting turn 4, and you have no basic lands, do you ever have a problem keeping WW available?

Jotun Grunt provides a modicum of disruption against a variety of decks...

How is Grunt disruption, he's potentially a beater, but I don't see how he disrupts anything? Ultimately, the number of cards in graveyards seems to be the most limiting factor with him as a clock; an early Grunt will most likely die to it's own upkeep cost before your opponent does. Working against your own Goyf really does seem to be more detrimental than you give it credit, as well, especially with multiple Grunts on the board (which you can control yourself, obviously, but it can still be an issue). Both are likely to get countered in the mid-late game, but early game it's not as much of an issue since there shouldn't be as many cards in graveyards (which means he's actually less likely to get countered). He also dies to graveyard hate (where Goyf just shrinks (and most likely dies) ), a Relic means he has no cards left and WILL get sac'ed next upkeep, while a Goyf will just cower as a 0/1.

I understand that the popular play is to eschew STP for PTE, but I would wager that this is a mistake and eventually we will all recognize it as such. I imagine someone will be taking me up on this, and that is OK. But Lavafrogg and I have spoken at length on the topic, and ultimately we agree pretty strongly against PTE.

Back to my original question, why do you think STP is stronger than PTE? You just say you've discussed it at length, but don't actually tell what you discussed and why you came to that conclusion. The argument for one over another is pretty well expained in this thread, though, the most common conclusion being that the possibility of an extra basic land is much easier to manage than basically giving them an extra turn worth of life (especially considering PTE "may" give them a land, while STP "will" give them life).

I'd also like to hear a little more on why you think Heirarch is more useful. You've limited the red spells, but still have enough that not producing red seems like it can bite you when you least expect it. Exalted seems like the main reason to run him, and there are better Exalted creatured than him (like a 4x Pridemage instead of just 3x).

beastman

07-15-2009, 10:47 PM

@ Finn: running no red spells except for 4 bolts, and 4 spells that you are required to sac 2 mountains for is a really bad plan.
I'd suggest getting rid of bolt for swords and path and blast for more removal, or dare I say it??? BERSERK FTW!!!!!
I'm better. Anyway, It would help your manabase alot, and you could play jitte too.

Finn

07-16-2009, 12:18 PM

How have no basics worked for you? a And the only suggestion for the deck i would make is, cut the Heirarchs, Exalted is good, but you could run another Pridemage or more removal, and plus the mana doesn't seem needed ya know?ba. I had run into problems when I was first building the deck, but the Hierarchs go a long way to minimize this these days. With one in play there are really only seven spells that I can't play. (I actually finished off a guy on MWS with Fireblast X2 while he had Back to Basics in play) Other versions of Zoo would find this to be more of a hassle, but this design gets away with it. That said, I don't see any compelling reason why the manabase has to remain that way. Point of fact, I think I was using this base when I had BOP and just didn't change it for the Hierarchs. How about:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
1 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Savannah

A turn 1 Blood Moon on the draw is still going to rape you, but I don't see much of a way around that anyway unless you completely kill the manabase. I also want to note that I only have 19 lands (where I figure this deck really wants the equivalent of 21) so the Hierarchs take up little space.

b. I actually think I covered this fairly well already. The one thing I want to stress is that Hierarch (or Birds) work quite well in the meta, and that is what I like. If you land one on turn one, you are set up to land extra dudes until your hand is exhausted. What are the important turn one plays the opponent can make that really put a crimp in this deck's style?

Chalice
Trini
Blood Moon
Ghostly Prison
Tendrils x10

I don't think a better turn 1 threat is going to make any difference here. But I am guessing that the real detail is the late topdeck of a Hierarch versus a Pridemage. Well, Rancor (which can sit in your hand if you don't land a critter) minimizes this affair rather often. But yeah, Pridemage is clearly the better topdeck in most cases. So the question becomes "How do you prefer the deck to operate?" I am shooting for my opponent's death before I get to some desperate topdeck mode, so I prefer the explosive starts.

For Serra, do you only say that because of the flying, or is there some other reason why it's very important to the deck?1. Rancor and Serra both provide a form of evasion. They help in a lot of the same scenarios.
2. WW has been an issue from time to time, but only in games in which I am facing steep anti-nonbasic stuff (recurring Wasteland, Blood Moon, etc). I think I was unable to cast anything useful in those games anyway. I had to rely on 1cc stuff mostly. The turn 4 requirement has not been a problem (see the Jotun Grunt info below)

How is Grunt disruption, he's potentially a beater, but I don't see how he disrupts anything?...I can see the argument for going to 2, but I can tell you from my vast experience with this card in Death and Taxes, that you will lose him to lack of gy food in far fewer circumstances than where you benefit from the graveyard clearing he does. I understand that this is highly meta-dependent, but I have been playing D+T for a long time now. In the aggregate, I have been pleased. Also realize, that I am only stating that you come up better than even by just playing the card. When you factor in the fact that he is a 4/4 for 2 beater with an upkeep that benefits you more often than hurts you, you really have to wonder what the holdup is.

Also, about Grunt in general. You will see folks like TacoSnape say how much he does not like Jotun Grunt. But I know the reason. He and just about all of the denizens of this website have been using it exclusively in decks that do not have the 26 creatures this one does. With Threshold, which has 10-ish attackers to choose from, you are likely to be holding just this one in your hand at any given time. To be effective, he HAS TO stick around while you protect him. In this deck, you will have options to play other similar threats in just about all circumstances. And the opponent will pretty much always have to assume that you have others anyway. The opponent HAS TO deal with it instead of letting it die to its own upkeep after two swings. It is a world of difference. So to answer your question directly, gy disruption is still disruption. You just play the right guys at the right time. Be selective with your Grunts. You can afford to be.

...why do you think STP is stronger than PTE?Lemme make another post about that.

@ Finn: running no red spells except for 4 bolts, and 4 spells that you are required to sac 2 mountains for is a really bad plan.
I'd suggest getting rid of bolt for swords and path and blast for more removal, or dare I say it??? BERSERK FTW!!!!!
I'm better. Anyway, It would help your manabase alot, and you could play jitte too.I don't see why it is a bad plan. The deck seems to do well with the color scheme I have. The red is also for Nacatl, which is a crazy unfair card. I don't like drawing Fireblast X2 in most games, but there are only 3 of them, so it is cool. I am not going to play Jitte. It is slow. And neither the removal nor lifegain is terribly important here.

lavafrogg

07-16-2009, 01:09 PM

This is an iPhone post so be kind.

First and foremost, @ jotun grunt, in my experience, nine out of ten times
your opponent wilm kill the grunt or it will kill them. Many decks
seek to set up a graveyard advantage to overwhelm other decks in the
mid to late game. Grunt comes in and either dies right away or destorys
everything they have fought to establish. He can single handedly beat
any loam deck and is a wall against many of zoos creatures and tarmogoyfs.

Suprizinglu he is good against most superfast decks in that he is a 4/4 for two that puts burn spells to the bottom and swings for for when he can.

As for stop vs path. Swords is 1-4 path is 5-8. More on this in a minute.

lavafrogg

07-16-2009, 01:53 PM

Sorry for the double post. iPhone issues.

Path vs swords, if on turn 2 your opponent 2 mana and searched for a basic land you would not think much, if instead of land searching they gained seven life you would think "what a noob". It is th same case here. Path to exile actually can affect board position which means it will be more of a downside more of the time.
The reason peoe don't see this is because they cannot see bow it effected the game on a direct way. The mana difference can cause the opponent to out tempo you and you will never even see it unless you can see their hand.

On the flip side, using the cards on our own creatures, I would muh rather be able to gain life than land search. Life gain is a much better oh. crap button then land search.

lavafrogg

07-16-2009, 02:09 PM

Please don't kill me for the posts but I can't figure out how to scroll down and add to the end of my posts.
I believe Finns exact words were " even when path is better it is only a little better ,all other times it is a worse card" or something like that.

Valtrix

07-16-2009, 03:56 PM

hungryLIKEALION

07-16-2009, 04:04 PM

I think 2 jittes is the most you can run, at least in the main, and I really dont like fireblast in zoo, your manabase is already hurt by waste and other mana denial, it gets countered way too often for it to be worth it, as there are so many other great burn spells to run.

I know for a fact that knight has no place in the deck either, you want cost efficient, fast creatures. Knight is niether, you dont even have utility lands for zoo to want to find.

I believe both these stigmas stem from a misappropriation of Zoo's role in a game. Zoo is not the deck to play if you want just want to beat face as fast as possible; That's what Goyf Sligh is for. Zoo is set up to have more mid game and a passable late game, along with more answers to problem cards your opponent is playing. It is an aggro deck, yes, but it's an aggro deck with a much larger focus on interaction (and card advantage) than pretty much any other. I've only very rarely had trouble casting fireblast when I wanted to thus far, and 3 Jittes works out well against every deck in the format but combo. Against so many decks a resolved jitte straight up wins you the game, and against the rest it puts you far, far ahead.

Regarding Knight, he is a card that I now swear by and will never cut from my list. I've already argued for him in this thread in the past, but I believe one of the problems is that I like to play my zoo list differently from how others play it. When I drop Knight against most decks, if I'm ahead on board, he'll be a 4/4 or 5/5 and he can get right into the swinging. If I'm behind, he can become a ticking time bomb. The next three turns I fetch out a horizon canopy with my extra lands, and draw an extra card as well as grow the knight by +2/+2. In this phase of the game, most blue players are unwilling to risk their tarmogoyfs in the attack phase, so I go unmolested until I've got a knight who is easily large enough to kill two goyfs, a slew of extra burn in hand/creatures on the board, and a pretty much unlosable game state.

Some examples of what he's capable of:
In a game against Tempo Thresh, He was winning but I managed to resolve Knight as a 5/5 with a 3/4 goyf on the board. He has three goyfs and a nimble mongoose. I have two uncracked fetchlands and all three of my basics in the face of his wasteland. Following turn EOT I crack a fetchland and he submerges my knight in response. I use my other fetchland to get a taiga, then sac it to knight to get horizon canopy. Submerge resolves, putting knight on top of my library. I then draw it with the horizon canopy before my original fetch land resolves, replay it next turn, and ride it to victory.

In another game against a goyf deck, I have a 10/10 knight against his nimble mongoose(threshed) and 3 goyfs at 3/4. I have a wild nacatl and a qasali pridemage. I attack with my knight. He blocks with all his creatures. I sac two mountains to fireblast a goyf and clear his board without losing my knight.

He dodges Chills and BEBs, which is a great thing. I once played a game where I smashed a guy with a knight while he was holding 3 BEBs that would have gladly wrecked a thoctar.

Also, since Knight rarely needs to be bigger than a 5/5 or 6/6 in most games, he can infinitely fuel your lavamancer. Infinite stream of direct damage=very good.

The most important thing he does is he lets you play a more intelligent game than thoctar does. You get tricks and a real source of inevitability. It doesn't matter if he's not as fast as thoctar; Being fast isn't the total game plan anymore.

I agree. I mean, if you're in a situation where a free fireblast accelerates your plan to a win, I figure you'd probably be able to win next turn with a burn spell that gets in virtually the same damage. No need to commit yourself so much for a finisher, when it will really hurt you in the games that it doesn't end the game.

I think that 3 Jitte is still fine to run. It really is that good. Whether or not it's better than 2, I'm not sure. But I definitely think that everybody should run at least 2 in the main.

I'm willing to concede that maybe fireblast is not neccesary, but I like it quite a bit right now. What would you suggest in its place?

Only 9 1-drops seems a bit low, even with 13 I can have problems.

22 lands also seems like a lot, although you do have 3 horizon canopies. Do 3 canopies ever give you problems when casting fireblast?9 1 drops is a little low, but I feel Kird Ape is not worth it. I don't want to run too many figures because he stays a 1/1 too long too often. And I don't want to run a fourth lavamancer.

22 lands is a lot, but the horizon canopies help offset that. And in the face of wastelands and sinkholes, the extra lands are awesome. The canopies don't give me problems playing fireblast since I'm still running the 15 red sources I'd be running even without them, assuming 19 lands.

Anyway, I'm playing this list in a tournament sunday, so I'll be sure to let you guys know how it goes.

Valtrix

07-16-2009, 04:21 PM

I'm willing to concede that maybe fireblast is not neccesary, but I like it quite a bit right now. What would you suggest in its place?

Well, you say that you like to play zoo as not a hyper-aggressive deck (which I completely agree with for its role), yet fireblast is quite clearly an aggressive card. It does not help you in your main game plan, which is to still have a middle and late game, if it comes to that, because you can still play a really aggressive game if nacatl sticks around. Fireblast may work better with knight, but I think that that's a small amount of synergy there to have it worth keeping.

I'd say that pretty much any of the standard spells would work better, depending on how you want to play, any mix of chain lightning/helix/swords. Since you're playing 3 jitte helix is probably not needed much, and with knight and lavamancer you probably don't need extra creature removal. So probably 3 chain lightnings would work out best. It's only 1 less damage than fireblast, but should be a lot more usable than it.

(Also, about the board, I think that you'd want to run 3 teeg/2 canonist, since teeg can be useful against more things than canonist, and is harder for anything with burning wish to answer.)

beastman

07-16-2009, 04:25 PM

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that zoo doesn't want to beat down as fast as possible, thats exactly what it wants to do.
About knight: I guess I might have judged him a little quickly, if you're running a build with canopy, I guess hes better as a two of than thoctar.
@Fireblast: You're argument is that zoo is not a mindless aggro deck like goyf sligh. I believe that Fireblast is one of the most mindless burn spells (Besides second rite) ever. With three colors, you have access to enough removal and other burn spells that the free cost and one extra damage from blast is not worth the tempo loss if it gets countered, especially if you have canopies.

lavafrogg

07-16-2009, 05:20 PM

I always thought the difference between goyf sligh and zoo was that where goyf sligh had more burn zoo had more little dudes hence the "zoo" deckname. Both of them are near mindles. Aggro decks and any notion of a Kate game other than throwing burn to the dome seems foolish.

hungryLIKEALION

07-16-2009, 05:36 PM

What I mean by Zoo doesn't want to just beat down as fast as possible is that Zoo is a deck with two plans of attack in any given game. The first plan is to drop the opponent from 20 to 0 before they can stabilize. However, when the opponent does stabilize, zoo is able to recover and push through the ending damage much more easily than other decks of its kind because it has the potential to play bombs like the Knight and Jitte.

It's hard to articulate why I like fireblast so much, so I'm not going to try because I know I'll fail to get my point across. However, I will begin testing other spells in its place and get back to you on it.

georgjorge

07-16-2009, 05:54 PM

So...has anyone tried Mold Adders so far, or are they worse than the not-really-played Hidden Gibbons? They should on average at least be bigger than Isamaru, Kird Ape, and sometimes Figure if playing against Thresh-style decks, Team America, Eva Green, Merfolk etc...although the point could be made that sideboard cards really should do something more specific than just being undercosted creatures with no disruptive ability whatsoever.

Manhattan

07-16-2009, 05:55 PM

See, path can make them "out tempo" you, but at the same time giving them an extra turn can do just the same thing.

I'm actually a fan of running a 3/3 split of swords and path, because I feel that path is definitely superior later in the game, but swords is better early and against aggro. Plus I like having a lot of answers to goyf/any other large creature. Most people would probably say 6 swords effects is too many though.

An early game swords gives the opponent maybe 2-3 life. That is by no means an "extra turn" if you are playing any form of decent offense. Path on the other hand can allow the opponent to drop two nasty things on turn 3 rather than one. That very well can be an extra turn.
Then add the fact that Zoo is very focused on the early game and generally whishes to end the game before big effects and cardadvantage take their course. This also aids to Swords superiority.
But most importantly you are comparing the two cards only under the aspect of tempo. This comparison would hold true if path let the opponent put a land into play from his hand. However path rather lets him tutor a land from his library and put it into play. This is not only a) tempo but also b) an extra card, c) colorfixing and d) ensures hitting more land. If you count the number of mana- and colorscrews an opponent is going to be able to evade the possible lategamesuperiority of path really pales.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-16-2009, 07:43 PM

An early game swords gives the opponent maybe 2-3 life. That is by no means an "extra turn" if you are playing any form of decent offense. Path on the other hand can allow the opponent to drop two nasty things on turn 3 rather than one. That very well can be an extra turn.
Then add the fact that Zoo is very focused on the early game and generally whishes to end the game before big effects and cardadvantage take their course. This also aids to Swords superiority.
But most importantly you are comparing the two cards only under the aspect of tempo. This comparison would hold true if path let the opponent put a land into play from his hand. However path rather lets him tutor a land from his library and put it into play. This is not only a) tempo but also b) an extra card, c) colorfixing and d) ensures hitting more land. If you count the number of mana- and colorscrews an opponent is going to be able to evade the possible lategamesuperiority of path really pales.

Come on... Swords is just worse in this deck. Almost every deck plays Goyf, trys to swords a Goyf, or anything fat for that matter and you're giving them an extra turn to find an answer. At least with Path, they don't get better odds of getting that answer.

It's just better. It helps like the Goblins matchup. And if you're scared of that matchup, and you're playing Zoo, idk what's wrong with you.

@hungryLIKEALION:
Dude run Aether Vial in the place of Fireblast LOLOLOLOL

hungryLIKEALION

07-16-2009, 09:24 PM

@hungryLIKEALION:
Dude run Aether Vial in the place of Fireblast LOLOLOLOL

Do you actively try to be a jackass or is it just something that happens?

Pretty sure I'll get a warning from this post, but somebody needed to say it.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-16-2009, 09:53 PM

Do you actively try to be a jackass or is it just something that happens?

Pretty sure I'll get a warning from this post, but somebody needed to say it.

Ya just can't make jokes on The Source... Because everybody's list is better than everyone elses :frown:

Oh and kudos for running Jitte. You're like the only other guy i know that does. Does Knight help the mana base at all? It seems like it would.

beastman

07-16-2009, 10:28 PM

Do you actively try to be a jackass or is it just something that happens?

Pretty sure I'll get a warning from this post, but somebody needed to say it.

Dude chill...Hes just making a joke.

hungryLIKEALION

07-16-2009, 10:39 PM

Ya just can't make jokes on The Source... Because everybody's list is better than everyone elses :frown:

Oh and kudos for running Jitte. You're like the only other guy i know that does. Does Knight help the mana base at all? It seems like it would.

Sorry, haven't had much taste for your humor since you posted that 5c combo zoo post. I was pretty offended.

Knight helps when you keep getting your red sources wasted, but usually once you have 3 lands your mana base is okay.

I'm not saying my list is better than anyone elses, I'm saying that I like it and have had pretty good success with it.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-16-2009, 11:12 PM

Sorry, haven't had much taste for your humor since you posted that 5c combo zoo post. I was pretty offended.

Knight helps when you keep getting your red sources wasted, but usually once you have 3 lands your mana base is okay.

I'm not saying my list is better than anyone elses, I'm saying that I like it and have had pretty good success with it.

Chill out man, i don't mean to offend anyone on here. People just take every post in these threads way too far. And that 5c Zoo Combo was funny now come on.. Everyone was just pretty much bitching out each other over Aether Vial so i figured i'd try and lighten the mood.

This deck is my baby, ya gotta remember that [:

And i've like the KoTR idea since it was thrown out there. I'll prolly make the switch once i get enough money to get some foil ones.

hungryLIKEALION

07-17-2009, 02:15 AM

Okay. Sorry I got upset. I guess there's a stick in my ass I need to dislodge.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-17-2009, 04:10 AM

Okay. Sorry I got upset. I guess there's a stick in my ass I need to dislodge.

It's all good. Me and you have agreed on most card choices for the deck, and argued together for those card choices against other Sourcers since you started posting.

JustCurious

07-17-2009, 04:14 AM

To chime in on the swords/path conversation, I think it depends primarily on where you want to take the deck. As you guys were touching on a little further back in the thread, there seems to be two distinct takes on this archetype.

The first is full out aggro and burn that tries to end the game quickly. For this game plan, you'd only play your swords/path variant to force through an alpha strike, hopefully ending the game by turn four. In this situation, swords runs counter to your goal, as it provides an extra hurdle of life you need to account for. The extra land from path is irrelevant (tempo, mana-fixing, or otherwise) because there shouldn't be another turn for your opponent to benefit from it. If you're using your swords/path variant at any other point of the game, it's because you absolutely have to and have no other answer for whatever problem creature is sitting across from you. In that case, you're game plan is pretty much screwed regardless of which spell you play.

The second take on the archetype adapts a more conservative approach, incorporating cards designed to respond to a mid- or late-game situation at the expense of a deck full of speed and explosive creatures/burn. Answer and utility cards like Jitte, Teeg, Knight, Lavamancer, Figure even, sacrifice some raw power for a more well-rounded deck. As the focus shifts away from pure speed, for this game plan playing a swords/path earlier than an alpha strike is more likely, but not as devastating because you have greater support for the later stages of the game. This means that the extra land from path actually starts to matter. Whether or not the loss of tempo, extra mana-fixing for the opponent, etc . is worst than life gain can still be debated, but I can see swords as the more appealing choice for this approach.

Finn I like your take on the deck, and wonder if a more controlling version could be made that is solely GW with a red splash to pump the cats.

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 11:02 AM

Why are we even considering swords for this deck? Isn't the point to put pressure and make their life totals go away quickly?

Finn

07-17-2009, 11:41 AM

Why are we even considering swords for this deck? Isn't the point to put pressure and make their life totals go away quickly?With that exact same logic, opponents of this deck should never crack their fetchlands either since they are trading life for land. Hot damn this deck just got a lot better!

Quote:
...why do you think STP is stronger than PTE?

Lemme make another post about that.I think the major points I wanted to make about this have already been voiced by lavafrogg and especially JustCurious. Since that did not seem to finish the conversation, I am back to what I said at the getgo. I am confident that STP is the better choice for this deck as well as the better choice in all but the smallest of corner cases (such as wanting to PtE your own guys for land a lot in a particular deck or if you actually want your opponent to get lands into play for some reason), and that time will make that clear to all.

But the general gist remains that life as a resource is easy come, easy go. Mana as a resource is far, far more valuable in every part of the game except for the damage that kills you. And even then, it was the mana available to your enemy that made it possible in almost all circumstances. That is why Healing Salve is garbage and Dark Ritual is amazing. In this case, the opponent does net get mana though. He gets a land so the mana keeps coming back. He even gets to pick which one. So that means the opponent gets options. And that sucks for you a whole lot worse than the life he might be getting. There really is no comparison.

troopatroop

07-17-2009, 12:45 PM

When Path to Exile was printed, I also thought that it would always be worse than Swords for reasons already stated. Giving them a land should be worse than giving them life, but It's really not that cut and dry in this deck. Some of the biggest threats against this deck like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Dreadnought, are going to give them a hefty dose of life. That life is going to matter against this deck, because you're playing burn spells. The most affected being Fireblast. If you're playing Swords (and Pridemage) as your only outs to Dreadnought, being forced to use it on that 12/12 actually sets you back a bunch, whereas Path would be a much welcomed change. Early game, PTE is definitely worse than STP, but seeing as it is our only answer to fat creatures and should be used as such, Giving them a basic land is probably better than the lifegain at that point. It's not like you're giving them any more threats, you're just making it easier to cast them, and alot of the time they didn't need the help anyway. Giving an opponent another draw step with some free lifegain is more dangerous, imo.

lavafrogg

07-17-2009, 01:12 PM

Yes, I will agree that the 12 life swing is bad. A 5 or 6 life swing is not. If a card was printed that said "your creatures deal no combat damage this turn. Remove target creature from the game" It would still be worse than swords to plowshares.

Giving the opponent land is never the correct play. You swords their nought, they gain twelve...life goes on. You swing for howevermuch and in a turn or two you are in the same position. You answered their threat on a 1-1 basis.

You path their nought, they get a land you just 1-2 yourself(which is bad) they untap, and draw a card freom a library that was just shuffled and has one less land in it. They also have one more land then they should and if they make their landdrop they are a land ahead of you for free. This means they have moe mana to cast more spells, like the cantrips to find the next nought or the EE to sweep your board.

This game is based on randomness and chance and you are increasing the chance for basd things to happen to you. You want to minimize your opponents chances of playing their mid to late game things because you do not have mid to late game strategies in your deck. No, jitte and knight do not count as late game cards. Zoo is about as close to an earlygame deck as you can find in this format on par with goyf sligh.

Some decks play 11 one drops, all of them with 2-3 power so 5 life is only a turn or 2 away even less if you have 2+ or a goyf on the board.

The reason that swords is the best removal ever printed is that it does not change the board position and that it does not give card advantage to your opponent.

All of this isnt even talking about the minute chance that you would ever cast path to exile on one of your own dudes to get a basic land and the extremely relevant chance of casting swords on your own creature to "counter" a fatal burn spell or to outlive a tendrils for just lethal, or even "swords my dude, Ill take 6""untap, swing, gg?"

The point I am trying to make is even when Path is a 1 mana remove target from the game thats it spell, you still lose the ability to gain life yourself which is a relevant ability in close fought games.

from Cairo

07-17-2009, 01:19 PM

An early game swords gives the opponent maybe 2-3 life. That is by no means an "extra turn" if you are playing any form of decent offense. Path on the other hand can allow the opponent to drop two nasty things on turn 3 rather than one. That very well can be an extra turn.

But it's extremely rare that one would be Exiling 2-3 power creatures on turn 2.

Almost all these lists pack 8-12+ burn spells that can take care of 2-3 power guys, and Nacatl/Ape can answer these creatures as well. The white removal for the most part is there to deal with the larger mid game guys, granted sometimes there are huge Goyfs in the early game, but in those cases the opponent is going to be gaining alot of life off Swords to Plowshares. The only match up I really feel Path is subpar to Swords is against Goblins, and that's a very lopsided match up to begin with.

Some decks play 11 one drops, all of them with 2-3 power so 5 life is only a turn or 2 away even less if you have 2+ or a goyf on the board.

So having your Swords to Plowshares double Time Walk you is better than your Path to Exile providing a free Rampant Growth!???! Really?

lavafrogg

07-17-2009, 01:52 PM

Except that you still get to draw a card, untap, play a land, further your development and make intelligent desicions yes it is exactly like getting double time walked. Your logic is infalable.

Except for the fact that it means nothing. If your fear is that your opponent draws nothing but gas then by the same logic they could draw nothing and you can draw gas which invalidates your argument. Anything can happen but swords reduces the chances of really bad things happening to you as compared to path.

Even through your logic path is much more loke a free time walk for your opponent in that they get to find(draw) and play a land for zero mana, and zero cards.

from Cairo

07-17-2009, 02:29 PM

Yea it was a joke.

With this deck giving you're opponent more turns is generally a bad thing. Especially once the tables start to shift out of your favor in the mid-game. The deck thrives on the early game, it gains very little the further into the game it goes, where many other decks look to stabilize in the mid game and take advantage of the late game.

Giving an opponent a land does in some ways push the game further into the late game, but only in terms of mana development, where Swords providing full additional turns in some cases gives most decks more advantage than the land would.

So when it's turn 5-6 and you're in a position to try to alpha strike and finish them off, clearing a blocker with Path gives them no immediate benefit, clearing it with Swords may negate the alpha strike.

Or if you are both at relatively low life, and they have a Tombstalker and a Goyf or something, swinging the board position without screwing putting them out of swing + burn spell range can be huge.

I just feel like past turn 5-6 there isn't much board developement to be gained by the Zoo player, where alot of other decks do gain access to more plays by having the additional turns, things like Vedalken Shackles, Firespout with mana available to answer a follow up threat.

And additionally some of the biggest creature hurdles for the deck to get around are Tombstalker, Dreadnought and opposing Goyfs all of which provide a huge chunk of life when they are plowed. IE while Path is a 2 for 1 in the sense they get a land and the spell from hand, in exchange for a guy, a Swords to Plowshares is a 2 for 1 vs anything with power >3 since it gets the removal spell and counteracts a Bolt in exchange for the creature.

Finn

07-17-2009, 03:09 PM

So having your Swords to Plowshares double Time Walk you is better than your Path to Exile providing a free Rampant Growth!???! Really?The logic on this thread is pretty underwhelming, folks. Anyone thinking to himself right now that life gain is in any way remotely like receiving a time walk needs to stop regurgitating what you have been told and begin thinking for yourself.

LostButSeeking

07-17-2009, 04:20 PM

The logic on this thread is pretty underwhelming, folks. Anyone thinking to himself right now that life gain is in any way remotely like receiving a time walk needs to stop regurgitating what you have been told and begin thinking for yourself.

I heard they're going to restrict Healing Salve in vintage. It's like a time walk at instant speed and half the price. :laugh:

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 04:51 PM

The logic on this thread is pretty underwhelming, folks. Anyone thinking to himself right now that life gain is in any way remotely like receiving a time walk needs to stop regurgitating what you have been told and begin thinking for yourself.

Lets make up make-believe situations in favor of Path if we are going to do it for Swords.

Zoo vs Ichorid.

Situation.

An Ichorid is in the way and unless you alpha strike now with your 4/5 Gofy and 3/3 Cat, you lose. They have 7 life left.

Swords: You swords the ichorid, they go to 10, you attack, they go to 3, they go off next turn, you lose.

Path: You path the ichorid, you swing, they die, you win!

Oh, and some decks like TT don't even run basics, making Path to Exile more appealing.

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 05:12 PM

Valtrix

07-17-2009, 05:15 PM

While I'm a fan of path, I think this is a weak argument in favor of of it. Almost every deck that path is relevant against is running basics. In fact, most decks are running basics because of all the land hate out there. We should be aware of how it affects many decks, but there are so few out there that don't run basic land, that it doesn't affect the strength of path at all in comparison to swords.

I feel it necessary to say this, simply because this type of thinking aids the thought process that the extra land really isn't a drawback, when in fact it is a very real thing to think about.

And if the opponent is able to take advantage of the tempo from the land you gave them, then you probably weren't going to win anyways. However, swords is counter-productive to the point of Zoo: fast, hard hitting critters with reach to finish the opponent. What good is that reach when your removal is making them gain life? Dismissing the life gain as if it would not affect the outcome is ignorant.

Reading for the win? I don't see why you think I'm arguing in favor of swords. I'm was just trying to dispel the idea that some decks don't run basic lands as being a worthwhile point of consideration in the swords vs. path debate. We can say all we want that these drawbacks aren't really drawbacks, and indeed they're not always game-breaking. However, we just need to be aware that they are drawbacks, and can make the difference in some games.

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 05:17 PM

Reading for the win?

So because you like the card, I can't discuss it with you?

Valtrix

07-17-2009, 05:21 PM

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 05:25 PM

No, it's fine. Sorry, I didn't quite get the tone of your post when I read it the first time. Since you quoted me I thought that you were trying to agrue with me to not ignore the drawback of swords, when really you were just continuing my idea, but using swords to say that we shouldn't forget that the life is a drawback as well.

Exactly. I was pointing out that Path's drawback sometimes will not come into play, while swords will nearly always give life (minus random creatures like Doran).

But no, I wasn't ignoring Path weakness, but merely trying to garner support for it in this deck since I believe it's superior to swords when aiming for the alpha kill.

Best part is the fact that we have the choice of path OR swords. I'm sure there is some deck out there that would love 8-sword effects.

chokin

07-17-2009, 05:38 PM

For me, STP is way better because of the mono colored aggro plans used here. PTE would have been nice when Blood Moon and Magus were "GG, next game please" strategies because it would be "W - Instant - Exile target creature" which is better than exiling it and them gaining life.

But the DTB section has been getting more weenie-esque. Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, etc. All of those play a significant amount of basics, so Path to Exile against these decks are more useless than tits on a bull.

Both have advantages in some scenarios, but in a blind meta, stick to STP.

Koby

07-17-2009, 06:04 PM

@chokin
On the contrary, against these weenie decks the extra land provided by PtE is not helpful past turn 3-4. Merfolk and Goblins mostly rely on AEther Vial which handles their creatures, while the Zoo mirror is more dictated by creature removal than tempo. Considering that the white removal is one of the first to be played out to give your red removal the dream of finishing your opponent, I'd say that PtE actually makes this task of "Win right now!" possible.

Swords on the other hand, would cancel a red burn spell most likely, and cause you to spend another card to return your opponent to the same life total. PtE, on the other hand, puts a land into play tapped, giving you at least 1/2 turn to have card parity.

I would rather stick with PtE than gain my opponent life.

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 06:09 PM

FoulQ

07-17-2009, 06:13 PM

It's just better. It helps like the Goblins matchup. And if you're scared of that matchup, and you're playing Zoo, idk what's wrong with you.

Thought I might clear this up. While I'm not arguing StP over Path (although I lean towards StP), I welcome path with open arms when I'm playing goblins. The deck is mana intensive, people argue for 24 lands and Eldariel argues for 25. Giving goblins land is not good. Obviously your post was somewhat mocking (like the goblins matchup...) but still. StP>Path vs. goblins and really it's irrelevant anyways because you should win anyway.

@ rukcus: Yes of course, because goblins plays aether vial every game, especially with all those counters in zoo.... No, the deck does not rely on aether vial, and goblin lackey is obviously horrible against zoo and would not really dictate any goblin player's mulligan decisions. The deck needs its lands especially against zoo. Giving the deck lands not only allows more pricy goblins being cast (in comparison to zoo and most other legacy decks), it allows more liberal use of wastelands and ports. Giving lands to goblins is BAD. 1-3 life (and 3 is pushing it) is honestly not going to make a difference in that matchup, either goblin card advantage will win in an attrition war (doubtful) or zoo will just stomp over them (most of the time).

Raptor

07-17-2009, 06:21 PM

hey guys,
I'm trying a build like this one. I'm not sure if this should be in the goyf sligh topic, but whatever.

By the way, my meta is FILLED with deck running a playset of FOW (Merfolk, Survival with blue, and treshes) By the way, there is not any combo deck. Mainly Control and aggro deck.

creature

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Quasali Pridemage

Other Spells

3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning

land

1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plain
1 Forest
5 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 REB
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Krosan Grip
1 Vexing Shusher

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-17-2009, 06:54 PM

Lets make up make-believe situations in favor of Path if we are going to do it for Swords.

Zoo vs Ichorid.

Situation.

An Ichorid is in the way and unless you alpha strike now with your 4/5 Gofy and 3/3 Cat, you lose. They have 7 life left.

Swords: You swords the ichorid, they go to 10, you attack, they go to 3, they go off next turn, you lose.

Path: You path the ichorid, you swing, they die, you win!

Oh, and some decks like TT don't even run basics, making Path to Exile more appealing.
This is exactly what made me make the change. Like i lost 5 games from relevant life gain from Swording an opponent's Goyf in one night. The next week when i brought PTE, it was amazing for me. PTE a Tombstalker and then just killing them then instead of in 2 more turns.

@Finn:I don't see how swording a big relevant threat isn't a time walk. The get to untap, draw a new card, and are at a comfy new life total.

Finn

07-17-2009, 07:38 PM

The cool part about taking an extra turn via timewalk is that the opponent does not also get an extra turn. You are giving the guy life, not an untap, draw, attack, main, and discard. Or rather, you are, but then you get all that too.

@drago: I dont even know what to say to your random conjecture. It feels like dancing with jello. When did I invent slanted scenarios?

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-17-2009, 08:06 PM

The cool part about taking an extra turn via timewalk is that the opponent does not also get an extra turn. You are giving the guy life, not an untap, draw, attack, main, and discard. Or rather, you are, but then you get all that too.

Come on... you're right that in not ALL situations It's like that, but in more situations than others, I've had to swords some dumb fat creature with lethal on the board, and it not become lethal again.

And i forgot who made the argument a few pages ago, but i agree in the fact that STP works well in Zoo decks with more utility creatures and artifacts etc.

But in most builds, that now run PoP and Fireblast, they want to win now and not in a turn or two. My build is WAY permanent heavy and I'd rather win now than in a turn or two. I don't like giving my opponent even the slightest opportunity to draw that EE or Humility or Sower to fuck my shit up.

lavafrogg

07-17-2009, 08:31 PM

I don't remember ever making up a favored situation for swords. The two situations talked about in recent posts have been a turn 2 creature and a nought. Both of these point to swords being the better card( arguably) . I would love for my turn two confidant to get pathed.

The situations made up are primarily saying that path is a better card when you have an alpha strike on your side, a blocker on the other side, and they are gonna win the next turn. You are proably at this point in the game either because you have already pathed something, and they are out pacing you on mana development or you saved your path to not give someone a mana boost and they are beating you with that creature.

If your first example on how a card is better uses a comparason based on an ichorid matchup I think you need to check your logic.

DragoFireheart

07-17-2009, 09:16 PM

hungryLIKEALION

07-17-2009, 09:18 PM

I've played this deck with both and came to appreciate path as my answer of choice. It can be really hard to get to 20 against the current counter top decks (Hard but doable pretty much every game.) But getting to 25 when you swords their goyf? If they draw sowers and more goyfs and a counter or two it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder than if you had just given them a basic land.

Now, swords DOES have a lot of advantages over path. Swordsing bob is a lot less painful than pathing him. It's also a lot easier to swords something like lackey or LoA or an opposing Wild Nacatl. I think the argument ends up being how much you care about tarmogoyf, where you think the line is between how much life you are willing to give them compared to when you'd rather give them a basic land, and how many decks there are in your meta that it's hard to get to 20 against.

In my meta I like Path right now, particularly with my current build, but I'm gonna test swords again since I haven't tried it for a few months now.

lavafrogg

07-17-2009, 09:42 PM

I specificly have not mentioned any counter top decks in any of these arguments for a reason. Countertop is the worst deck you ver wan to give mana. And they play bob, which is never good to path over swords. Them with extra mana means they will chain cantrips into a countertop lock and keep you out of the game.
You never want to path their creatures early and even late game giving them mana to play Around with is a bad idea. This is one of those tricky situations where both cards are defendable but one is actually far superior.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-17-2009, 09:48 PM

Something else I'd like to point out in this whole STP/PTE argument.

When do you ever Exile something with less than or equal to three toughness?

Most Zoo lists play at least 8, at least 8 burns spells that deal at least 3 damage to creatures. I usually save my PTE for a fattie, and let them chumpblock to live, or burn a weaker creature away. I'm not saying you'll always have a burn spell to deal with a creature, but it makes perfect sense. And in the cases i just stated, PTE is better than STP.

Sure you might have to Exile your opponents turn one Hippie on occasion, but that's the risk you take running PTE over STP. And i don't see the problem with it. Better than having to waste an Attack Phase with Kird Ape to even stuff out again.

hungryLIKEALION

07-17-2009, 09:54 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-17-2009, 09:57 PM

In my testing, the counter top deck having 6 mana is no different from them having 7 mana. The "Extra mana to fool around" is in my experience not too relevant once they've made their land drops, and between their tops and constant cantrips they almost always make all their land drops anyway.

Amen for that. It doesn't even take testing to figure that out. And it's not like your PTE is gonna, ya know, resolve anyway.

lavafrogg

07-17-2009, 10:32 PM

The difference between 6 and 7 doesn't mean anything but the difference betwen 3 and 4 is huge. Oh and don't forget 2 and 3, I heard that matters alot, god forbid your mana screwed opponet lands a creature that you need to kill.

I heard there is more than the endgame when comparing two cards you guys seem to completly skip over the whole gameand jump right to the alpha strike. If you read kver your arguements you will see that you have said the same thing kver and kver and are specificly looking at the point in the game where you either alpha strike or lose the game.

whienot

07-17-2009, 10:57 PM

Lavafrogg has a point. A landstill player wouldn't Path my dude because I was slightly landscrewed.

Manhattan

07-17-2009, 11:14 PM

Are you trying to be arrogant? Please get off your high horse and assuming that you right, us wrong.

I subsribe to Finn's argument. Finn is at no point assuming anything. He has stated and extended his point repeatedly and made a (from my point of view) clear case in favor of Swords, while you try to make a case for Path with ... Dredge?

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-17-2009, 11:14 PM

The difference between 6 and 7 doesn't mean anything but the difference betwen 3 and 4 is huge. Oh and don't forget 2 and 3, I heard that matters alot, god forbid your mana screwed opponet lands a creature that you need to kill.

I heard there is more than the endgame when comparing two cards you guys seem to completly skip over the whole gameand jump right to the alpha strike. If you read kver your arguements you will see that you have said the same thing kver and kver and are specificly looking at the point in the game where you either alpha strike or lose the game.

Was this aimed at me? Bc i said, "Sure you might have to Exile your opponents turn one Hippie on occasion, but that's the risk you take running PTE over STP. And i don't see the problem with it. Better than having to waste an Attack Phase with Kird Ape to even stuff out again"

How is that assuming i have an alpha strike in play? And i also just addressed that i have burn spells for just that job. Yeah you might not have one, but that happens, It's Magic.

Edit: A Landstill player would PTE a Gaddock Teeg :P

lavafrogg

07-17-2009, 11:35 PM

The statement was made in response to every situation where people have said path was better. Why would I reply to someone who is agreeing that swords is a better card.

Valtrix

07-17-2009, 11:49 PM

I think the problem here is about the phases in the game where people want to play the game.

It seems that those in favor of path want to play it later in the game, when the drawback starts to become negligible whereas people for swords want to play it at any point in the game.

So, I guess it then begs the question of what you want to use it for. I don't see people arguing that swords is better in the late-"er"-game (well, at least I hope that's not what happening), but rather which is better for the deck overall. And in that case, those looking at swords vs. path want it for the late-"er"-game anyway, in which case path is better.

lavafrogg

07-18-2009, 12:17 AM

Seeing how zoo is an early game deck don't you think the better earlier game card should be in the deck?

I am saying that there are cases where any card can be the perfect card to have in your hand. That is any card. In this specific case it is swords against path and in more cases swords is the superior card. Even in a deck like zoo swords is still the better card.

Swords is clearly a better card in the early to mid game and it is debatable and situational which is better in the late game. Seeing how every game has an early game and zoo wants to see as little of the mid and late game as possible I'm still confused as to how this is debatable.

Valtrix

07-18-2009, 12:31 AM

Because it's not clear what's defined by "Early-game," "Mid-game," and "late-game," and it's also very unclear the pros and cons for each card at each point in the game, and how that factors in the overall power level of each card.

lavafrogg

07-18-2009, 12:54 AM

Early game: turns 1-2
mid game: turns 3-4
late game: turns 5-6

the defining factor in the keyword "turns" being the amount of lands in play therefore the mana cost of the spells you canplay or the amount of spells you can play.

If landdrops are one of the most important factors defining the game state then advancing your opponents game at little cost to them is a "bad thing". Life total affects the game state only in that the last life point must be intact for you to be in the game.

Using my definitions, path is horrible in the early game, bad in the mid game and still effects the game state in the late game. Swords is constantly good throughout the game and is only worse in corner cases.

kraftwerk

07-18-2009, 01:28 AM

hi all,

Currently I am trying to make a semi-Budget version of Zoo, but need help with some slots and sideboard

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Seal of Fire
4 Rift Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fireblast

3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
7 Mountains

This gives me 3 slots uncounted for
Any help would be appreciated

from Cairo

07-18-2009, 02:20 AM

The logic on this thread is pretty underwhelming, folks. Anyone thinking to himself right now that life gain is in any way remotely like receiving a time walk needs to stop regurgitating what you have been told and begin thinking for yourself.

If it's pushing back the turn you kill your opponent, giving them more turns to stabilize, it is not a good thing for an agro deck.

People were arguing that ~3 life from a plowed creature is inconsequential, where it completely cancels out a burn spell. I think this drawback is larger than some are crediting it.

Most lists running 8+ 3dmg burn spells alot of the smaller opposing creatures can be answered by them, but again larger creatures equals alot more life gain to overcome which gives decks additional turn(s) to stabilize. Yes it's not Time Walk, but it is pushing the game into the later phases where Zoo's strategy looses substantial power compared to most Legacy dtbs.

lavafrogg

07-18-2009, 02:36 AM

Swords is giving them more life to utilize which may or maynot be relevant, in the same way that the extra land may or maynot be relevant. The difference is what is more or less relevant. I beleive I gave made points that have not been refuted and need to be addressed, the main point being the weakness of path to exile in the early and mid game.

I see this weakness as the primary reason to not play path. Pathing any creature in the early game when you don't have them dead on the board can potentially lose you the game.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-18-2009, 02:51 AM

How is giving them land more relevant than giving your opponent like in an aggro deck? I just don't see how it is.

Me and Cairo made fine points on STP, very damn fine points. You're assuming that giving your opponent land will just like give them some broken play, it's iffy, but it's less iffy that STP.

They will ALWAYS gain life with STP. Always. Something you can't afford as the aggressive aggro deck. Idk how many times I've been in situations where i just wished STPed was anything but STP, a fucking Raging Goblin would have been better.

JustCurious

07-18-2009, 03:55 AM

Pathing any creature in the early game when you don't have them dead on the board can potentially lose you the game.

You're absolutely correct here.

But for a Zoo deck looking to race to a turn four win, you'd never play that Path before you are in a position to kill them. As others have stated before, we have a gazillion bolts to clear the way of small creatures - using a path on something like Bob is simply not a real option. We're so focused on the 'alpha strike' turn in this discussion because that is really the only time you'd consider playing a path.

Now you could argue that Noughts, beefed up Goyfs, Tombstalker and co. can show up before you reach that critical turn, and you'd be forced to us a sword/path variant early. In these cases, if you're playing a version of Zoo which only plans for speed, you've pretty much lost the game already anyway -- regardless of whether its a path or a swords -- because you're gameplan is to get damage through before they can mount a sizeable defense.

I'll reiterate what I've said before, the only spot for swords in this deck is if you focus less on speed and more on surviving into the later turns. This means including cards like Jitte and Knight. The more of these kinds of cards you add, the more likely you'll have to use a swords/path variant before you are ready to kill. This means that the drawback of path becomes more relevant, making swords that much more appealing.

And yes, Jitte and Knight are both mid- to late-game cards, by the way. Playing, attaching and attacking with a Jitte isn't going to happen until turn three at the earliest, four or five more regularly. Even if you get it active on turn three or four, its at the expense of paying mana to drop dudes or throw burn to the face, which means you've slowed your clock down by a turn or two. A similar argument can be made for Knight, especially in comparison against Throctar.

Elfrago

07-18-2009, 05:06 AM

About the StP vs Path debate:

Which card is better?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/10e/288.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/9e/38.jpg

[/debate]

hungryLIKEALION

07-18-2009, 07:20 AM

The difference between 6 and 7 doesn't mean anything but the difference betwen 3 and 4 is huge. Oh and don't forget 2 and 3, I heard that matters alot, god forbid your mana screwed opponet lands a creature that you need to kill.And if you're choosing to play swords you're welcome to play it in the early turns all you want. However, Zoo is not a deck that is light on removal. I say the difference between 6 and 7 doesn't matter because that is when I play my paths 90% of the time. I don't path my opponent's turn 2 bob; I lightning bolt it. If I occasionally have to use a path on an early bob, then so be it, but 90% of the time I'm not casting it until the land isn't relevant anyway.

I heard there is more than the endgame when comparing two cards you guys seem to completly skip over the whole gameand jump right to the alpha strike. If you read kver your arguements you will see that you have said the same thing kver and kver and are specificly looking at the point in the game where you either alpha strike or lose the game.I'm not saying there is no middle game or early game to worry about. But the thing is, in those stages of the game you have other options to kill creatures in your way. Lightning Bolt. Lightning Helix. At least 8 ways to kill an early creature in your way. Yes, pathing an early goyf sucks when you have no other way to deal with it, but that's not path's purpose in the deck.

If you try to use path like it's swords, then yes, it sucks. I'm not arguing that it does STP's job better than STP. I'm arguing that it does Path's job better than STP.

Carabas

07-18-2009, 07:29 AM

While it can be a problem to give a thresh opponent their 3rd land, once they have 3 or 4 it doesn't matter. When you're up against a deck with 8+cantrips, they're much less likely to be landscrewed than a deck with a lesser form of consistency.

Once the game goes later, their goyfs are going to be very big, and you won't really mind if they have another land.

In the matchups where giving them an extra land will probably matter (Goblins, merfolk, landstill) we either have a very good matchup (goblins+merfolk) or we would be siding out our 1cc white removal anyway (landstill).

umbowta

07-18-2009, 09:50 AM

Lavafrog, welcome to my ignore list. I'll check back in on your posts in about six months or so when you've had a chance to pilot this deck and the counter top variants. Your past several posts demonstrate either a total lack of playing these archtypes or failure to pay attention to what is going on in the games you have played.

For the rest of you who are arguing the merits of StP and PtE, simply read the previous two or three posts by Finn and Justcurious.

@JustCurious, shockingly content rich posts for someone with such a low post count. Thank you for contributing.

Valtrix

07-18-2009, 12:33 PM

I see this weakness as the primary reason to not play path. Pathing any creature in the early game when you don't have them dead on the board can potentially lose you the game.

And I see this as the weakness of swords: Swordsing any creature with lethal on the board can potentially lose you the game. And for zoo, I think that reality is much more likely than yours.

I still don't see your argument, when you say that the early game is only the first 1-2 or even mid-game with 3-4 turns. You don't need a :w: removal in the early game, and even in the mid-game it's drawback starts to become not that awful to deal with, especially if they've already gotten a 3rd or 4th land.

@Elfrago:
Comparing two cards that nobody would play in legacy isn't very useful. In a vaccuum life is quite obviously less valuable than a land, but we're not in a vaccuum, so we can't make that comparison. However, even in legacy after the first few turns I would argue that the life is more valuable, since most decks curves are so low/fast that they can't find use for that extra land.

lavafrogg

07-18-2009, 12:39 PM

I have recently decided that I am no longer allowed to post from my iPhone.
I dont read over the posts and apparently I sound like a jerk when my thoughts free flow from mind to screen.

Being added to someones ignore list is of great pride to me, I have never posted anything that anyone has felt any emotion towards so even if it is negative in nature I will take it as a plus.

Saying that somone has no experience with a deck when you know nothing about a player is a rediculous notion. I for one, have alot of experience with Countertop decks, you dont know that.

Anyone who says that there is not a difference between 3-4-5 land from the countertop players perspective has never played the deck. Top is very mana hungry to manipluate what you are gonna graw and what you are going to float on your library.

3 mana is enough to play a goyf/bob and top once to counter something. Four mana is enough to hard cast a sower/4cc spell and protect it with free countermagic. Five mana is enough to cast that sower and protect it with your counterbalance.

You can always set your top three to protect the sower before playing it but that 1) takes mana and 2) takes time and can fail if the opp is smart. Seeing how the countertop deck wants to get to as mana landdrops as possible they will daze creatures, plow creatures, play goyfs and bobs to get in the way of your plans(not adding any creatures that the player might run i.e. painter, nought, pridemage etc).

You say that you have burn to clear the way of these little creatures but anyone who has played burn knows the difficulty of burning out a turn 2-3 tarmogoyf with anything less than double bolt.

There is always a fringe in the game where the countertop player needs one more mana to completely wreck you or completely lock down the game to make it non interactive from that point on.

Even with the amount of cantrips they play when they are digging for land instead of (insert bad things) then they are wasting time and giving up tempo, basicly what you want them to do.

Every counter example that has been stated has lead to the assumption that PtE will mostly be cast on the last turns of the games when the opp cannot do anything with the extra land. This is theoreticly turning the card into an unsummon(dead/gone) because if they cant replay the creature then why kill it.

With swords, you swords the creature and move on the the next phase in the game(hopefully the attack phase)

...and for all means read the last few pages to make your desicion about the cards.

Tacosnape

07-18-2009, 02:26 PM

Why not just run neither STP nor Path and run more burn? There's spots in the sideboard if you need to actually get rid of something problematic.

lavafrogg

07-18-2009, 03:17 PM

But then what would we fight about?

chokin

07-18-2009, 06:05 PM

Let's run both. OMNOMNOM.

hungryLIKEALION

07-18-2009, 06:07 PM

With lavamancer it's pretty easy to kill an early goyf with one bolt.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-18-2009, 06:08 PM

Let's run both. OMNOMNOM.

OMG!!! SUCH AN ASSHOLE!!! :tongue:

Hahahahaha sorry i had to :smile:

Finn

07-18-2009, 07:50 PM

With lavamancer it's pretty easy to kill an early goyf with one bolt and one Lavamancer.You still have to have both. Or you could plow it and go about your business.

troopatroop

07-18-2009, 11:07 PM

You still have to have both. Or you could plow it and go about your business.

I'd prefer to Path to Exile it and go about my business, But to each their own.

hungryLIKEALION

07-19-2009, 02:51 AM

You still have to have both.

Wait, seriously!? I thought that just having a card in your deck was as good as having it in play! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-19-2009, 03:40 AM

2 for 1s are bad right? I mean right?:cool:

Anywho, gaining your opponent 5 or more life is good too right?:wink:

Finn

07-19-2009, 03:55 PM

Wait, seriously!? I thought that just having a card in your deck was as good as having it in play!You say that as if I did not make some sort of valid point. Bolts suck ass against Tarmogoyf even on turn 2. Thinking up a scenario in which having a second card finish it off is about as useful as Drago's argument. Ya know the one against Ichorid?

BTW Drago, I am trying hard to be respectful. In that example Path is better. Yes. But so is Jump. So, by your logic we could replace StP with Jump and have a better deck. This is what happens when you attempt to generalize from a single example.

The discussion has clearly devolved.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 04:37 PM

BTW Drago, I am trying hard to be respectful.

Don't mock me. You weren't "trying", as any attempt at discussing if Path is superior to Swords has resulted in hostility from you. The fact that you yet again dismiss the very real possibility of swords losing you a game continues to show your "respect" (lack of).

Let me ask you this: have you personally tested Path over Swords? If the answer is no, I have nothing further to discuss with you.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 04:40 PM

Why not just run neither STP nor Path and run more burn? There's spots in the sideboard if you need to actually get rid of something problematic.

The only issue I see with this is what will you do with Gofy standstills.

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 05:05 PM

The only issue I see with this is what will you do with Gofy standstills.

And I very rarely find myself with enough creatures/burn to deal with a turn 1/2 Dreadnaught.

As far as my list goes, Im going to stick with 4 Swords.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 05:09 PM

And I very rarely find myself with enough creatures/burn to deal with a turn 1/2 Dreadnaught.

As far as my list goes, Im going to stick with 4 Swords.

Have you tested Path to Exile?

lavafrogg

07-19-2009, 06:14 PM

I can attest that Finn has tested path to exile as it seems that the card is a natural replacement for swords in aggressive decks.

It was in this testing that the discovery was made that path was near uncastable in the early turns of the game. The natural reaction to this is that the deck plays burn spells and Finn quickly learned how inneffective burn is in dealing with a goyf(which is the most popular creature in the format). With out the ability to burn out a goyf, which then pretty much halts the creature rush, then you are forced to path the goyf giving your opp. A free rampant growth. Had the path been a swords the 2-3 life gain would have been negated in an attack step.
Due to the popularity of tarmogoyf the relevance of the downside of the early path to exile is exposed as burn us not enough to remove obsticles in your creatures way.
As much as the example of using burn to clear the way why would you not use your creature removal that doesn't double as reach.

The point in this rant is that early path to exile in the format called legacy will directly lead to a gameloss, whereas a late swords to plowshares might leave you a few damage short of killing the opp.

This whole argument is will vs might and it is very debateable and situational that a late game path is worse than a late game swords.

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 06:15 PM

Have you tested Path to Exile?

Actually, I have.

Granted, my meta isnt exactly the best to test things in since its not the most competitive, but I have played in a few higher end tournaments and I would much rather give them life than the chance to get a basic land (which most decks run at least one of each).

This topic has been debated to death in this thread, and honestly there's no right answer. Neither one is better than the other. It depends solely on how you play the deck.

One huge advantage that swords has too, not that this is a good play to say the least but it has saved a friend of mine a couple times. If your in a pinch and need one more turn but facing lethal damage - you can swords your own guy and get that last boost you need.

Again, before you flame the hell out of me for "being a nub" I realize that is a very, very rare instance. However, its one definite advantage swords has over path.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 06:15 PM

I can attest that Finn has tested path to exile as it seems that the card is a natural replacement for swords in aggressive decks.

I wasn't asking you. :smile:

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 06:19 PM

Actually, I have.

Granted, my meta isnt exactly the best to test things in since its not the most competitive, but I have played in a few higher end tournaments and I would much rather give them life than the chance to get a basic land (which most decks run at least one of each).

This topic has been debated to death in this thread, and honestly there's no right answer. Neither one is better than the other. It depends solely on how you play the deck.

One huge advantage that swords has too, not that this is a good play to say the least but it has saved a friend of mine a couple times. If your in a pinch and need one more turn but facing lethal damage - you can swords your own guy and get that last boost you need.

Again, before you flame the hell out of me for "being a nub" I realize that is a very, very rare instance. However, its one definite advantage swords has over path.

Yes, that is a nice advantage to swords, especially when facing a burn deck. Though, if that is a problem with life, you may be better off running Lightning Helix.

I'm not saying that swords is bad, but it's not good when it cancels out a Lightning Bolt (which is basically a 2-1 if you think about it) and the point of this deck is to burn + big critters.

lavafrogg

07-19-2009, 06:24 PM

I wasn't asking you. :smile:

That still does not invalidate the arguement.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 06:29 PM

That still does not invalidate the arguement.

Actually, it does since I want Finn's knowledge, opinions and experience, not yours.

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 06:36 PM

Yes, that is a nice advantage to swords, especially when facing a burn deck. Though, if that is a problem with life, you may be better off running Lightning Helix.

I'm not saying that swords is bad, but it's not good when it cancels out a Lightning Bolt (which is basically a 2-1 if you think about it) and the point of this deck is to burn + big critters.

I actually do run helix's. Heres the list I run, minus SB since Im currently tearing it apart and rebuilding it daily...

Land:
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Savammah
3 Taiga
2 Plateau

Creatures:
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Watchwolf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I never once have encountered a situation where I wish a swords wasnt a swords (unless their board was clear). Ive played this deck a lot and against a variety of decks (from jank to Tier 1-2).

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-19-2009, 06:42 PM

Land:
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Savammah
3 Taiga
2 Plateau

Creatures:
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Watchwolf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Your list is getting me all hot and bothered :cool:

Edit: I could see why your list would run STP. It's the same reason i did when i played that almost exact same list. You have more permanent damage sources so your opponent gaining life isn't as bad as you think. You run beaters like Watchwolf and Figure, and you play Cursed Scroll.

I could see both sides of this argument it just comes down to preferability.

lavafrogg

07-19-2009, 06:44 PM

Then let's pretend in a seperate post I say the same thing I said a minute ago but I say " coming from someone who has tested with both cards" and then said the rest. The points are still valid.

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 06:45 PM

Your list is getting me all hot and bothered :cool:

Haha, Im glad you like it. The only slots Im still undecided on are the Figures and KoR's. One of them is going to be the KoR's or Thoctars. But Ive toyed with MD Teeg in place of the Figures too...not sure how viable it is though.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 07:26 PM

Then let's pretend

Lets not. I wanted to hear from Finn. I'll ask you later.

hungryLIKEALION

07-19-2009, 07:29 PM

Won a tournament of 16 people today playing Zoo. This is the list I played:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Stomping Grounds (Still working on getting that second taiga)
1 Snow Covered Mountain
1 Snow Covered Plains
1 Snow Covered Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
22 land

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Watchwolf (Couldn't locate a 4th pridemage. :( )
3 Knight of the Reliquary
24 Creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Path to Exile
14 Spells

Pretty burn-lite list, but I was worried about running into decks with no non-basics since this was just a free tournament at my local store. As it happened, pretty much only good players showed up so price would have been pretty awesome. Oh well.

Round 1 I played against Dragonstompy. Game 1 he mulls to five and has no action while I play ape and beat down with goyf. Game 2 He opens on chalice for 1 but I only draw one 1cc spell (Lightning Bolt) and beat him with triple goyf after killing his pit dragon with a lightning helix.

Round 2 I played against a BW Mana denial deck with smallpox, vindicate, sinkhole, and Tombstalker to finish. Game 1 I keep a 1 lander not realizing what he's playing since I have 5 1 drops in my hand, and while I do draw my second land immediately, he kills my first and I'm stuck playing out 1 drops while he slowly rolls me with smallpox. He plays tombstalker and I lose. Game 2 I play a bunch of creatures really quickly and kill him before he really gets anything going. Game 3 I manage to get in some early beats before he lands a tombstalker to stop my advance. I have him at 10 and I have a pridemage on the board. I play a knight of the reliquary, which is a 6/6. He swings in with his tombstalker to put me on 9 and the following turn I attack with my knight, exalted making him 7/7. He activates his mishra's factory to block but I shoot it with my pridemage and finish him with a lightning bolt.

Round 3 I ID against a guy playing countertop.

Top 4 I play against the BW guy again but this time I just blow him out both games.

Finals I play against the countertop guy I ID'd with. Game 1 He doesn't really get any action and I play a nacatl (swords'd) Goyf (forced) and then two lavamancers which oddly enough beat down for a while until he plays trygon predator which I kill with a lightning bolt (through coutnerbalance, no top) and finish him with some burn. Game 2 I again open with fast beats from a fig and goyf while he plays two goyfs. The goyfs are three four so I attack with the figure with mana open to make him a 4/4. He double blocks so I trade fig for a goyf and pass the turn. He plays a cantrip and counterbalance before passing the turn back and I drop Knight which leads me to a quick victory.

My sideboard sucked. It looked like this:
4 Volcanic Fallout
2 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Exalted Angel
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

Don't ask about the angels... I don't know why they were there.

Anyway, the deck ran pretty smoothly. I must say that playing a list with this many creatures has its advantages, since you don't run into the problem where you start a game with only burn nearly as often. I'm glad I decided to run ape again, even though I sided him out a lot. 13 1 drops was not too many. If I had realized so many good players would show up I would have played price too, though I'm not sure where right now. I'd also like to consider eeking in magma jet, just as an experiment.

Now, I feel like chiming in again on the path discussion, just because I feel like people are over-exaggerating the difficulty of getting past an early goyf.

If they play a t2 goyf, chances are the only things in grave yards are lands and instants. When this is the case, bolt takes it down. When this is not the case, you will often have access to a pridemage or a lavamancer to allow a nacatl to swing past goyf without slowing you down. Other times, particularly with my list, you can just swing with exalted nacatls, exalted goyfs, or KoR's and watch them go right passed the foe's goyf without a problem for the majority of the early game. I hate that I feel like I have to emphasize this again, but it appears I must. I don't have a problem with pathing creatures in the early game.

The point in this rant is that early path to exile in the format called legacy will directly lead to a gameloss, whereas a late swords to plowshares might leave you a few damage short of killing the opp.

This whole argument is will vs might and it is very debateable and situational that a late game path is worse than a late game swords.That is straight up bullshit and I am calling you on it. I've pathed plenty of early goyfs and gone on to win the game. Once again, the land is rarely relevant. Like, what are the situations that make pathing so scary to you? Say they're playing counterbalance and they make a T2 goyf which you path. Then you're scared of them making T3 sower on your 1 drop(On the draw) or your 2 drop you played along with the path(on the play)? Untap and bolt the sower. They don't have counterbalance down so they'd better have force up, and if they did have force up, they woulda just forced the path 9 times out of ten. And that's assuming they didn't force your t1 nacatl.

Like, that's serious the scariest situation I can think of to argue against path. And it's not even that scary. It doesn't even make me cringe.

What are you so scared of accelerating them into? What, specifically?

Anyway, now that that's done, I liked this list a lot and would reccomend trying a similar list to anyone looking for some new tech for their zoo deck. Horizon canopy is awesome.

That is all.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-19-2009, 07:40 PM

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 07:55 PM

And the people arguing against PTE always assume the opponent has like the nuts super good draw that that one extra mana you gave them will let them dominate you. It just doesn't make sense... get a new argument.

Its a valid argument to a degree. I'd say its more complementary than just being the only point to make, though.

This is something I was thinking about when I was out shopping a few ago. Back before Conflux, Zoo seemed to be doing just fine running swords over...well nothing to replace it. Decks were winning, fairly consistently and no one was complaining about the life gain of the opponent being an issue. The decks just muscled through. Now granted, Path does provide a nearly identical result but at a different drawback and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms against the life gain. Citing it as some major new drawback.

I don't know, it all seems moot to me. Ill tell you what though, Ill try path again and Ill be sure to figure out if the result would be different if it was swords. I'd be willing to bet I'd win either way.

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-19-2009, 08:01 PM

Its a valid argument to a degree. I'd say its more complementary than just being the only point to make, though.

This is something I was thinking about when I was out shopping a few ago. Back before Conflux, Zoo seemed to be doing just fine running swords over...well nothing to replace it. Decks were winning, fairly consistently and no one was complaining about the life gain of the opponent being an issue. The decks just muscled through. Now granted, Path does provide a nearly identical result but at a different drawback and all of a sudden everyone is up in arms against the life gain. Citing it as some major new drawback.

I don't know, it all seems moot to me. Ill tell you what though, Ill try path again and Ill be sure to figure out if the result would be different if it was swords. I'd be willing to bet I'd win either way.

Yeah, i understand your points, because i used to advocate swords just as much as anybody. It's just gotten to the point in the last few pages, that certain people *cough* have been making the same regurgitated point about PTE. I'd just like to hear some other good point about it, if there is any.

hungryLIKEALION

07-19-2009, 08:01 PM

It is true that people ran swords and shouldered through the life gain, but I know at least I was never entirely happy with that solution. When path came out the reason people started disliking the life gain from swords was that it was now not mandatory; You now had the option to have a different drawback.

Anyway, for reference:

The smallest creature I Pathed today was...:
Arc Slogger
The largest creature I Pathed today was...:
Tombstalker.

I would have won the game against the guy with the slogger anyway since he played it the last turn before I killed him, but I easily could have lost the race against the BW guy if I'd given him 5 life instead of the extra land (Which, I should add, was not relevant.)

So when I say that I hold my paths for their big creatures, that is exactly what I mean. And it works out fine.

Edit//I'm glad you like my list, LB. I should also throw in that I was very happy with the 3 knights of the reliquary. He's incredible. It's nice when you can answer their tombstalker with something even better.

Valtrix

07-19-2009, 08:07 PM

[/b]
Now that is what a fucking Zoo list should look like. Heavy on creatures, light on burn. People just don't fucking get that nowadays.

That's what I've been wondering lately: What to do about that burn suite versus creature package. Burn can be useful, but I always feel like I want things that stick around more, and we have so many good options that there's only a few creatures that actually give us trouble.

What I mean is the difference between Keep in mind, these are not necessarily "ideal" creature/spell combinations, but rather to illustrate a creature/spell balance:

// Creatures (26)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant (Or other critter if you don't like it)
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [FNM] Kird Ape
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells (14)
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [EX] Price of Progress

// Creatures (20)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [FNM] Kird Ape

// Spells (21)
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning

Because sometimes I feel like burn could help, but most of the time I feel like creatures should be the way to go, and that once we reach a certain point the more creatures we have the better, because then it become less and less likely that the opponent can actually deal with all of them. Especially with lack of many sweepers in the format, I think that this has a lot of power. (Also, I really like the 4/4/4 Nacatl/Figure/Ape) Honestly, I haven't gotten a ton of "real-play" experience with a burn heavy build, so it's difficult for me to compare.

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 08:08 PM

Edit//I'm glad you like my list, LB. I should also throw in that I was very happy with the 3 knights of the reliquary. He's incredible. It's nice when you can answer their tombstalker with something even better.

I definitely feel the same. I havent been upset with KoR once. I really dont see Thoctar coming back unless he replaces the Figures in my list but thats iffy. KoR is a lot better against late game big goyf's too.

I just have one question about the list. You run 4 apes but not 4 Watchwolves. Is this something you noticed working better or just for a tempo thing? I cut my Apes a long time ago but Ive debated bringing them back in.

@Valtrix Ive always thought that if your going to play a burn heavy list, why not just drop white and play Goyf Sligh? It would stabilize your mana base and give you pretty much the same deck.

Valtrix

07-19-2009, 08:15 PM

@Valtrix Ive always thought that if your going to play a burn heavy list, why not just drop white and play Goyf Sligh? It would stabilize your mana base and give you pretty much the same deck.

Because nacatl, pridemage, and :w: removal are just that good, and I have seen people making those type of zoo lists. I just keep wondering what type of balance the deck should go for, and I keep gravitating for those creature-heavy lists. With more creatures you tend to fish slightly slower, but I think that more than makes up for it in inevitability. Also, when you're thinking about running magma jet, I think you have a problem :P

Loxodon Baileyarch

07-19-2009, 08:19 PM

@jimmerz213: As like noobish as this is going to sound, i don't really sit down and build a deck around a curve or cc. I just take powerful cards, put them together, and tweak it from there. I've had ALOT of success in the game of Magic disregarding regular deckbuilding and doing it on my own. I love Ape, and i have noticed that alot of people are cutting him, but I'll make the argument i make for Isamaru, because it's the exact same thing. People see Ape and aren't scared. He gets in there for 4 damage almost every time i cast him. And i like 4 damage for 1 mana.

Watchwolf on the other hand is just a beater. He has no land stipulation and is always beefy. I've loved him since Rav block and i couldn't see cutting him either. He is just good.

@Valtrix: I've always thought that Zoo should be more creature heavy, and it's the definition of the deck. People try and blend Goyf Sligh and Zoo, and it work for them, but the true "Zoo" deck, is permanent creature threats that stick around, and burn on the side to finish the job. I could never see myself going the burn heavy side because though it may goldfish better, it seems less consistent. At least creatures stick around for 3 damage a turn.

@hungryLIKEALION: Thank you!!! The land is hardly ever relevant is it? I've killed Gathan Raiders, Spectral Lynx, Sower, Tombstalker, Naught, and the land has never affected the game state or turned the game state in my opponents favor. Knight seems more resilient late game. He can play the turn 3 aggro role, sometimes not as good as Thoctar, but that's what you have burn for. And he seems like an excellent topdeck late game, because he just seems massive. And he thins your deck in tight spots, all while being ridiculous.

jimmerz213

07-19-2009, 08:59 PM

Because nacatl, pridemage, and :w: removal are just that good, and I have seen people making those type of zoo lists. I just keep wondering what type of balance the deck should go for, and I keep gravitating for those creature-heavy lists. With more creatures you tend to fish slightly slower, but I think that more than makes up for it in inevitability. Also, when you're thinking about running magma jet, I think you have a problem :P

I dont think I made my point clearly, thats my fault. I was trying to say that if your going to play a burn heavy list, its probably because you like that style of play. Goyf Sligh would probably be a more successful deck for you to pilot. To me, Zoo is supposed to be (in my opinion anyway) a creature heavy list.

@jimmerz213: As like noobish as this is going to sound, i don't really sit down and build a deck around a curve or cc. I just take powerful cards, put them together, and tweak it from there. I've had ALOT of success in the game of Magic disregarding regular deckbuilding and doing it on my own. I love Ape, and i have noticed that alot of people are cutting him, but I'll make the argument i make for Isamaru, because it's the exact same thing. People see Ape and aren't scared. He gets in there for 4 damage almost every time i cast him. And i like 4 damage for 1 mana.

Watchwolf on the other hand is just a beater. He has no land stipulation and is always beefy. I've loved him since Rav block and i couldn't see cutting him either. He is just good.

I actually tend to do the same, especially when it comes to homebrew decks. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesnt. Its half the fun :p
Comparing Ape to Isamaru is probably the best arguement, the only difference is that Isamaru is a static 2 power, which I like more. I would love to fit Ape in, but I would want them as a 4 of, and I cant justify replacing something in my current list with them...it works too good as is.

sauce

07-19-2009, 10:02 PM

i think path to exile early can lock you out of the game vs countertop. a path on a t2 goyf means a possiblity of a t3 cb + t3 top which means GG to your 1 drops right away and a possibility of a 2 drop blind hit.

edit: with t3 mana open possibility for top as well.

hungryLIKEALION

07-19-2009, 10:41 PM

I definitely feel the same. I havent been upset with KoR once. I really dont see Thoctar coming back unless he replaces the Figures in my list but thats iffy. KoR is a lot better against late game big goyf's too.

I just have one question about the list. You run 4 apes but not 4 Watchwolves. Is this something you noticed working better or just for a tempo thing? I cut my Apes a long time ago but Ive debated bringing them back in.

Yeah, I cut Ape and put him back in all the time. A page or two back you'll see he's not in my previous list. But I like him again for now. It's just too important to have a t1 creature to not run him. And like Baileyarch said, he's no nacatl, but he'll usually be worth at least 4 damage, and even when you play him past t1, he'll still be bigger than a lot of creatures that don't rhyme with smarmogoyf.

As for watchwolf, I don't run him because I have too many other creatures I like better. I run 3 of the Knight of the Reliquary because my relatively high land count makes it a lot easier to hit three land drops in a row, and curving into this guy on your third turn is awesome. I also run 3 lavamancer (And I believe that not playing any lavamancers is a terrible idea) and 2 figures. If I was going to play watchwolf, I would put it over the 2 figures and 1 knight as a three of, but I find those creatures to be more useful currently. Watchwolf is a good creature, but to me he just isn't quite good enough.