[Deck] Zoo

[hungryLIKEALION]

yeah, what from Cairo and Valtrix have said in these last few posts is pretty much the sum of why I like Path over Swords. Path just doesn't need to be cast early. I only run three because I only want 1 a game most of the time. If I wanted to be casting it early and often I'd run 4. Otherwise, you have enough other ways to take care of early blockers without needing to path them.

[miss_bun]

I think a split might be called for more often than not.

[lavafrogg]

It seems silly to say this but your guys pro Path logic has boiled down to the fact that the drawback is so large and negatively effects the game in such a way that you will not play it to kill early creatures and to play only three of them so you dont draw them early and often...

From Cario: what happens when you dont have the matching burn spell? If the thresh player leads with land ponder your only out to that turn two goyf is to have the chain lightning. Which has to be played immediatly and not dazed(who cares if you can pay the 1, goyf will still survive). What happens when they play the turn 3 3/4 goyf on the play? Path still has a very relevant downside, it can even be a 4/5 if they dazed a creature, turn three and you already cannot burn out a goyf.

I feel like you guys are glossing over this weakness like it dousnt matter. In your words:

i think path to exile early can lock you out of the game vs countertop.

Hungrylikealion: So when I say that I hold my paths for their big creatures, that is exactly what I mean. And it works out fine.

In legacy most creatures are big. They are also played on turn 1-2 where path does not want to be played.

you said:

That is straight up bullshit and I am calling you on it. I've pathed plenty of early goyfs and gone on to win the game. Once again, the land is rarely relevant. Like, what are the situations that make pathing so scary to you? Say they're playing counterbalance and they make a T2 goyf which you path. Then you're scared of them making T3 sower on your 1 drop(On the draw) or your 2 drop you played along with the path(on the play)? Untap and bolt the sower. They don't have counterbalance down so they'd better have force up, and if they did have force up, they woulda just forced the path 9 times out of ten. And that's assuming they didn't force your t1 nacatl.

Like, that's serious the scariest situation I can think of to argue against path. And it's not even that scary. It doesn't even make me cringe.

What are you so scared of accelerating them into? What, specifically?


Countertop decks for the most part tap out every turn or leave mana open for top activations/brainstorms/swords. If they tap that land once then it has made a difference in the outcome of the game.

I have never once said anything about a nuts draw on the Countertop side. It is the most consistant deck in the format and if you do not look forward to the fact that multiple tarmogoyfs and counterbalance/top will be resolving through the course of the game then you are sadly misleading yourself.

The deck runs on 1cc cantrips and library manipulation. You are reducing the amount of time the CT deck needs to set up lock against you. So let me restate... the card is worse against the best deck in the format. You are helping the most played/popular strategy beat you.

And your plan to negate this problem, run less than 4 path to exiles.

As for specific examples: any cantrip into a tarmogoyf with mana open. Cantrip into CB/Top tap out. CB/Top with mana open. EE for 2 and blow it. Cantrip + EE for one and blow it. EE for 1 + swords. Double goyf. Goyf+Bob.
Top+ Goyf+activation for next turn. Sower. Get more islands for shackles.

These may not seem like "power" plays but the fact is that they are the plays that will beat you and you are speeding up the chances to make these plays. They will use the extra mana to ensure that they draw what they need, when they need it. It is the strength of the archetype.


Btw I love the recent creature lists. Figure+pridemage+awesome

p.s. Ill fix the formatting when I get home.

[miss_bun]

Path's drawback shoudn't be ignored, but neither should swords' drawback. That's why I think a split is/can be a good idea.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tried a split? like 3/2 or 3/3...thats proably too much dedicated removal.

[miss_bun]

I'd go 2/2, tbh.

[Kird Ape]

The reason this arguement has continued to rage is simple. Everyone is playing different decks and the life gain is important to some builds while the land isn't. There is no set in stone, this is the way you build zoo. But, check this:

4 AN Kird Ape R Creature - Ape
4 FUT Tarmogoyf 1G Creature - Lhurgoyf
4 ALA Wild Nacatl G Creature - Cat Warrior
4 ARB Qasali Pridemage GW Creature - Cat Wizard
3 TO Grim Lavamancer R Creature - Human Wizard
3 ALA Woolly Thoctar RGW Creature - Beast

// Spells
4 CFX Path to Exile W Instant
4 B Lightning Bolt R Instant
3 LG Chain Lightning R Sorcery
3 EX Price of Progress 1R Instant
2 VI Fireblast 4RR Instant
2 LG Sylvan Library 1G Enchantment
(straight off mWS, sorry)

I run PtE because unless i can land a price that life gain is going to hurt more than a land especially if i get in a countertop lock.
I have tested both. I have always played zoo and even when cursed scroll was a house (especially with sol ring and moxen) that life gain gave them an extra turn.
This is not the end all of zoo build, but this is the build that Alix Hatfield (insert oooo and ahhhh) :) and I came up with and he piloted it to a T4 at a recent SCG 5k in Boston. His neat-o story: I path my own guy to get double mountain so i could fireblast FTW.

Everyone is just going to have to face the fact that some builds like path better while others like swords.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm not bothering to quote your post because it's really long lavafrogg, but giving them 3-4 life will often be an extra turn which helps them win anyway. 3-4 life from an un-boltable goyf has an equal chance of losing you the game as giving them a land does as far as I can see it.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

This is not the end all of zoo build, but this is the build that Alix Hatfield (insert oooo and ahhhh) :) and I came up with and he piloted it to a T4 at a recent SCG 5k in Boston. Who the hell is Alix Hatfield? Must not be that famous if I've never heard of em :cool:

[from Cairo]

Keep in mind that if it's land/sorcery, then you need to chain to kill and for land/instant you need bolt (or helix). Since on resolution the respective card will be in the grave to make goyf bigger.

Pretty sure I addressed that...


If they have a T2 Goyf it's what a 2/3 (Land, Instant/Sorcery)? In these cases it can be answered by a Bolt or Chain respectively, or one can swing freely into it with a Nacatl, or they can play a Pridemage and buff a Kird Ape to a 3/4 to swing into it, or they can play Lavamancer, losing a turn of attacking, but threatening to off Goyf in future combat.

. . .


From Cario: what happens when you dont have the matching burn spell? If the thresh player leads with land ponder your only out to that turn two goyf is to have the chain lightning...

What happens when they play the turn 3 3/4 goyf on the play? Path still has a very relevant downside, it can even be a 4/5 if they dazed a creature, turn three and you already cannot burn out a goyf.

You still have your creatures, of which many match or outclass a 2/3 Goyf (Kird Ape, Nacatl, Pridemage or Thoctar even if you were on the play). I mentioned this also, if you don't have Chain Lightning, then swing in with Nacatl or a Exalted Kird Ape, chances are they aren't sacing a Goyf to Fog the attack, if they do even better, by swinging your not losing any of your board pressure and you gain another turn before having to answer Tarmogoyf. Their following Turn, Turn 3, they may play out Counterbalance or something that doesn't grow Goyf and you might draw the Chain Lightning; they might grow him and chose to swing, in which case you're still probably in a position to race; you may draw your own Goyf the following turn, which with 'Mancer or Pridemage would put you ahead in the standoff; or you might end up casting your Path to Exile to following turn, accelerating them to land 4-5 on Turn 4, which isn't great but is better than casting it the turn prior and accelerating them to land 4 on Turn 3.

It's not the end of the world to Path to Exile a turn 2 Goyf. My main point is alot of the time the card doesn't have to be played early and in avoiding using it Turn 2 or 3, alot of the drawback is negated. Sometimes it does have to be played early, yes there is clearly a downside to the spell. But if given your hand it makes more sense to accelerate them in exchange for a cleared red zone, than PtE the Goyf and keep swinging. Sometimes the additional land comes back to hurt you, sometimes it was completely irrelevant.

No one is saying Path to Exile doesn't have a downside, they're saying it's downside is only as relevant as what the opponent can do with the additional mana. Swords to Plowshare's extra life is always going to be a relevant downside, extra life points need to be answered to win the game. Path to Exile's drawback definitely has the potential to be just as or more so relevant, but the later into the game it gets the less relevant it becomes and with fast large Creatures and 3pt burn spells one can quite often put off using the Exile removal spells until the mid game, where the acceleration becomes less relevant.

[Finn]

Yes, Drago. I have actually tried out Path to Exile. I tried it in D+T. I have to take back everything I said about it.

Path to Exile is a pretty good card. But the creature you have to sacrifice to get the extra land is a bit of a drawback in that deck.

[beastman]

Who the hell is Alix Hatfield? Must not be that famous if I've never heard of em :cool:

One of the more respected members of the source(obfuscate freely) He and his brother jesse(mad zur) are responsible for many many popular variations of threshold. Alix just made top 8 at the scg 5k with a zoo variant running sylvan library.

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, Drago. I have actually tried out Path to Exile. I tried it in D+T. I have to take back everything I said about it.

Path to Exile is a pretty good card. But the creature you have to sacrifice to get the extra land is a bit of a drawback in that deck.


And did you try Path in Zoo?

[Finn]

*facepalm

[beastman]

The source: your source for facepalmery

[Valtrix]

Ever wonder if when you get frustrated with people on the Source if people are having the same problem with you? I do :P

[jimmerz213]

And did you try Path in Zoo?
/rant

Seriously, we get it, you like Path over Swords.

Can we move on now? I doubt your constant questioning is going to make anyone switch their choices (honestly, its making me want to play Swords more to spite you).

Its all about the person playing the deck. If they want to give them a land, they will. If they want to give them life, they will. Both spells are good at different times and are bad at different times. Constantly arguing the point to death seems counter productive when both sides agree each has drawbacks and plus sides.

/end rant

Anyway..Ive been thinking more about kird ape. I think the next tournament I go to, Im going to try -2 Figure, -2 Isamaru and run 4 apes instead. Ill goldfish on MWS too a bit probably, just to see how it works.

[DragoFireheart]

*facepalm


You said D+T, not Zoo. You never said "Yes, Path to Exile is good (or better than Swords) in Zoo". You posted some nonsense about Death and Taxes (which I don't give a shit about) because... why? I wasn't sure if you were referring to it in a different deck, so calm down.

It truly is amazing how much of an effort you make it to NOT post a straight answer Finn.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Have i ever mentioned, that despite how idiotic some posts sound, and how big of assholes we are to each other, that i love you guys?

And Kird Ape is a hoss. I found like FNM foil ones thank god. I'm getting so close to finishing pimping my Zoo deck. For a poor kid I'm doing well.

[DragoFireheart]

/rant

Seriously, we get it, you like Path over Swords.

Can we move on now? I doubt your constant questioning is going to make anyone switch their choices (honestly, its making me want to play Swords more to spite you).

Its all about the person playing the deck. If they want to give them a land, they will. If they want to give them life, they will. Both spells are good at different times and are bad at different times. Constantly arguing the point to death seems counter productive when both sides agree each has drawbacks and plus sides.

/end rant

Anyway..Ive been thinking more about kird ape. I think the next tournament I go to, Im going to try -2 Figure, -2 Isamaru and run 4 apes instead. Ill goldfish on MWS too a bit probably, just to see how it works.


While we are at it, I'll play Wild Mongrel instead of Tarmogoyf to spite you.

/sarcasm.


Really? I read the bolded part and just realized that you have no clue WHY these boards exist. We argue not to make the other person follow our ideas only, but so they post their ideas to counter our own. By doing this, we find out which cards are optimal and which cards aren't. This isn't a causal forum, it's Legacy Tournament Decks. If you disagree and argue/discuss why you think that with the purpose of optimizing the deck, that's great!

On the other hand, if all you do is say "let him do his thing, and you do your thing" with no reasoning behind it, that's bad and makes me question you: Why you are here?

[beastman]

While we are at it, I'll play Wild Mongrel instead of Tarmogoyf to spite you.

/sarcasm.


Really? I read the bolded part and just realized that you have no clue WHY these boards exist. We argue not to make the other person follow our ideas only, but so they post their ideas to counter our own. By doing this, we find out which cards are optimal and which cards aren't. This isn't a causal forum, it's Legacy Tournament Decks. If you disagree and argue/discuss why you think that with the purpose of optimizing the deck, that's great!

On the other hand, if all you do is say "let him do his thing, and you do your thing" with no reasoning behind it, that's bad and makes me question you: Why you are here?

Someone missed nap time...

These boards are here to share ideas like you say they are, not to shove your cock down people's throat like you're doing.

[DragoFireheart]

These boards are here to share ideas like you say they are, not to shove your cock down people's throat like you're doing.


That's exactly what I said. At no point did I ever say "lol, only noobs play Swords".

Looks like someone missed English class. :tongue:

[beastman]

*Sigh*
You just don't get it...
People are getting angry at you because you refuse to drop the argument on StP and PtE. You've put in your arguments and reasoned out why you like path. Now drop it, its going nowhere.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I retract my earlier post.

[DragoFireheart]

*Sigh*
You just don't get it...
People are getting angry at you because you refuse to drop the argument on StP and PtE.

If people are seriously getting angry because of some discussion, they have serious issues. Anyways, you should speak for yourself.

Finn posted a response and I asked him to clarify since I was confused. He made a post about Death and Taxes and Path to Exile for some reason. He posts a /facepalm when I ask him again if he tested it in Zoo. I don't understand the point of his post, since it didn't really answer my question.


You've put in your arguments and reasoned out why you like path. Now drop it, its going nowhere.

None of my comments were aimed at you: I was waiting for Finn to reply since I wanted his experience with using Path. Unless you are a mod, telling me to stop posting isn't going to hold any water.

Anyways, unless you want to stay on topic and discuss Zoo, I'm done discussing The Source drama with you.

[jimmerz213]

Ok, Ill give you that. I was a little crass with what I said. Im not going to run swords to spite you, Im going to run swords because of the points I have made time and time again about me running them over Paths. This is one of the more recent ones, which Im assuming you read.


Actually, I have.

Granted, my meta isnt exactly the best to test things in since its not the most competitive, but I have played in a few higher end tournaments and I would much rather give them life than the chance to get a basic land (which most decks run at least one of each).

...

One huge advantage that swords has too, not that this is a good play to say the least but it has saved a friend of mine a couple times. If your in a pinch and need one more turn but facing lethal damage - you can swords your own guy and get that last boost you need.


And the reason that I personally am getting annoyed is that your only real rebuttal to anyone mentioning Swords is "Have you TRIED Path" or some derivation there-of. Thats not a sound argument. And before you get all upset and such again, I know you have posted your arguments before (Ive also read them) but as of late, all your doing is forcing your point down our throats like its the only "right" option.

Frankly, Im done debating this whole issue and you guys can continue if you want, but Im tired of it.


@Lox, FnM ones? Cmonnn you gotta run the old school Arabian Nights originals! Foils are cool, but AN are cooler!

[DragoFireheart]

And the reason that I personally am getting annoyed is that your only real rebuttal to anyone mentioning Swords is "Have you TRIED Path" or some derivation there-of. Thats not a sound argument. And before you get all upset and such again, I know you have posted your arguments before (Ive also read them) but as of late, all your doing is forcing your point down our throats like its the only "right" option.

I haven't forced anything down anyone's throat. If you look, I actually acknowledged the point you made about swording your own creatures and agreed with you. If anything, it seems as though OTHER people were trying to force things.

[Valtrix]

*facepalm


You said D+T, not Zoo. You never said "Yes, Path to Exile is good (or better than Swords) in Zoo". You posted some nonsense about Death and Taxes (which I don't give a shit about) because... why? I wasn't sure if you were referring to it in a different deck, so calm down.


On the other hand, if all you do is say "let him do his thing, and you do your thing" with no reasoning behind it, that's bad and makes me question you: Why you are here?

There is some amount of tact in debating, and these types of responses really just aggravate people, without adding much to discussion. It isn't just one person or side either, but really the arguments are starting to devolve into a personal battle, if they haven't reached that already. It gets us nowhere. I don't want to be an adjudicator, but people need to calm down in general.

(And while I've tried to format this post it seems like the debate has gotten a little more civil. Go faith in humanity.)

[DragoFireheart]

There is some amount of tact in debating, and these types of responses really just aggravate people, without adding much to discussion. It isn't just one person or side either, but really the arguments are starting to devolve into a personal battle, which gets us nowhere. I don't want to be an adjudicator, but really people need to calm down in general.

(And while I've tried to format this post it seems like the debate has gotten a little more civil. Go faith in humanity.)


Like I said, I'm done debating The Source drama. If Finn wants to discuss his experience with path in Zoo he's free too. If not, oh well.

[DragoFireheart]

It was in this testing that the discovery was made that path was near uncastable in the early turns of the game. The natural reaction to this is that the deck plays burn spells and Finn quickly learned how inneffective burn is in dealing with a goyf(which is the most popular creature in the format). With out the ability to burn out a goyf, which then pretty much halts the creature rush, then you are forced to path the goyf giving your opp. A free rampant growth. Had the path been a swords the 2-3 life gain would have been negated in an attack step.
Due to the popularity of tarmogoyf the relevance of the downside of the early path to exile is exposed as burn us not enough to remove obsticles in your creatures way.
As much as the example of using burn to clear the way why would you not use your creature removal that doesn't double as reach.

The thing is, as some mentioned, is that you can burn Goyf in the first 2-3 turns since he still hasn't had time to grow. Having a Lightning Bolt negated by a Swords is a 2-1 all of the time, while the land Path gives isn't always an issue.



The point in this rant is that early path to exile in the format called legacy will directly lead to a gameloss, whereas a late swords to plowshares might leave you a few damage short of killing the opp.

How would it lead to game loss? Sure, if this was a control deck I could understand, but since this is a fast aggro deck you kill them before they get the chance to capitalize on that land.



This whole argument is will vs might and it is very debateable and situational that a late game path is worse than a late game swords.

If this deck gets into the late game, it most likely has lost already. Giving someone an extra land late game isn't going to affect the board much since most decks curve at 4 or 5 CC at most. However, life gain from Swords will always hinder the speed that Zoo can kill someone, late or early game.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Lox, FnM ones? Cmonnn you gotta run the old school Arabian Nights originals! Foils are cool, but AN are cooler!

I have the AN ones too trust me. I ran those first. I'm just trying to foil out my spells, and my duals are already signed from when i went to Chicago, so I'm moving on up. Tarmogoyfs will probably just be foreign. I don't have that much money. I've got a Russian one thanks to a buddie of mine so far. I'm gonna invest in foil Jittes because they aren't that expensive, and i've got other Jittes to trade in for em. I'll post my list with the pimpness factor included eventually lol.

[beastman]

I got my helix's signed by Craig Jones:smile: .

If you dont get that reference look here.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t0pzLnSWw0

[Finn]

Drago, my response about D&T was pretty concise and entirely truthful. Not to be too tactless here, but There is no other way to say it. The fact that you have yet to grasp its meaning indicates to me that I am casting pearls before swine.

[DragoFireheart]

Drago, my response about D&T was pretty concise and entirely truthful. The fact that you have yet to grasp its meaning indicates to me that I am casting pearls before swine.

I don't understand why you posted something about D&T when I asked about Zoo. Yes, I understand you think Path is good in D&T, but I wasn't asking or talking about D&T.

In any case, what details can you give me about using it in Zoo. Examples of how it was good/bad in matchups vs other DTB/DTW/ATW/Rogue decks / etc.

Someone mentioned it being bad vs Goblins which I agree, but Zoo stomps goblins anyways so I wonder how much of a difference it made.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I got my helix's signed by Craig Jones:smile: .

If you dont get that reference look here.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t0pzLnSWw0

Yea i watched that video when they posted it on the magic website. Like i've loved Zoo since those days. I always wanted to get the duals and play that deck. So now that i have old school duals and an almost foiled deck, I'm going apeshit haha. That deck is also where my affinity for Watchwolf came around <3

[chmoddity]

You guys are almost too much to believe.
Yes, Drago. I have actually tried out Path to Exile. I tried it in D+T. I have to take back everything I said about it.

Path to Exile is a pretty good card. But the creature you have to sacrifice to get the extra land is a bit of a drawback in that deck.this statement > entire discussion

I almost want to let DragoFireHeart go on longer. But I can't take it any more. Dude, the guy was using it on his own creatures.

[DragoFireheart]

Dude, the guy was using it on his own creatures.


... in Death and Taxes, not Zoo.

[umbowta]

Path and Swords are both way too tame. More aggression. More Fire. More ROAR. This is all you need http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uebInqG1pJI

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Path and Swords are both way too tame. More aggression. More Fire. More ROAR. This is all you need http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uebInqG1pJI

I'm going to see them in October when they come to Atlanta. It'll be my first time seeing em so I'm really fucking excited. I got like REALLY good tickets too.

But anywho, an Exile creature spell, is worth 3 spots...

[umbowta]

I'm going to see them in October when they come to Atlanta. It'll be my first time seeing em so I'm really fucking excited. I got like REALLY good tickets too.

But anywho, an Exile creature spell, is worth 3 spots...hellz yeah. I haven't seen them live since...mid 90's. Enjoy the show. And yeah, 3 spots is all I've got for PtE. No room for StP at all. That includes both Swords to Plowshares and Stone Temple Pilots.

I've been drinking and typing is a total pain in the ass right now...backspace key waaay to often.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

hellz yeah. I haven't seen them live since...mid 90's. Enjoy the show. And yeah, 3 spots is all I've got for PtE. No room for StP at all. That includes both Swords to Plowshares and Stone Temple Pilots.

I've been drinking and typing is a total pain in the ass right now...backspace key waaay to often.

Yeah dude like my friend's like Stone Temple Pilots and they always use STP when referring to them, so I'm like omg magic references. And then when we're at fast food, I'm like, McChicken, splash mayo.

Uhhhhh

[lavafrogg]

...splash mayo...rotfl

I guess if you were splashing lettuce they would throw in a side of tarmogoyf?

[DragoFireheart]

...splash mayo...rotfl

I guess if you were splashing lettuce they would throw in a side of tarmogoyf?


Sounds like some spicy Mexican bean or something.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I'll be out of town for like 2 weeks or so, so that means no Source time. I hope you lovely idiots of mine don't start another STP or Aether Vial argument.

Enjoy one less know it all asshole for a few weeks. Peace.

[Seregrauko]

I'm going to see them in October when they come to Atlanta. It'll be my first time seeing em so I'm really fucking excited. I got like REALLY good tickets too.

But anywho, an Exile creature spell, is worth 3 spots...

Enjoy 'Tallica in Oct! - Rumor has it that danish Volbeat are takin' care of the warmup in the States? (Nice Lightning reference btw, Umbowta!)

Metallica decided to throw 5 gigs in Copenhagen.. I saw the first CPH concert on this tour a couple of days ago. Entertaining as always though the sound could have been improved. They played in the round, and I haven't experienced that before. So I guess it was pretty ok.
I'm going again tomorrow. ;)

I had HUGE expectations on behalf of Mastodon (who's doing the warmup together with Lamb of God) - It ended up being a HUGE dissappointment though.. The worst sound ever!
Later on I was told that they often perform poorly. Both sound and enthusiasm lacks. Sad.. - Because in the studio they a musical geniuses!


..Ohh.. Back on topic. I've played zoo for a long period of time now. Used to play Swords but (ofcourse(?)) made the switch to Path once it was printed.

In my eyes this slot is dedicated to "clearing the way" for critters to beat face! Swords then acts like a semi-fog a doesn't serve it's purpose right (making sure we deal ~20 dmg). Both cards are better mid-late game than early on. But as mentioned - we have burn for the "lesser beings" (= x/1-3's).

I can see how giving a control deck a basic can be an issue. BUT they rarely have any critters to remove in the first place. I might even side out my Path game 2-3 to side in hate and try to run through any defences (even though I know my opponent might side in a playset of Goyfs).

The discussion is completely valid. And this might even come down to personal preference - You can argue that people play the deck differently and thus make different decisions with their in-hand removal.
This, however, should not impare the discussion on which card is the most viable card in the deck. But it can serve as an explanation as to why some opt to play StP over PtE!

I choose PtE since too often StP costs me a turn or maybe even two. I don't experience PtE doing the same. It's easier to stabilize because of +4-6 life than to stabilize because of a basic land. This is my experience anyway..

[lavafrogg]

Control decks might not have creatures but I have heard aggro control decks might play one or two. Which, as the most popular deck in the format, it a pretty big detail you have seemed to gloss over.

If you really want to restart this arguement please read the last pages in the thread to get upto date in what we have already discussed. Pro swords players see the fact that you cannot reliably burn out a turn two goyf, and you do not want to cast path on turn two, as a primary selling point to not playing path.

Path players just see the life total difference and remember the games where it mattered, which may or may not be enough to disclude swords.

The whole point being you want to cast your creautre removal before your burn to kill creautres. The added life just becomes something you have to play through. You do not want to push the non beatdown deck into a better controling position.

Finally, swords players play the full set, lath players play three. Figure out why.

[chokin]

Guys, remember when I said we should run both STP and PtE (joking of course).

Well...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28003

...someone did. I laughed when I saw this.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Guys, remember when I said we should run both STP and PtE (joking of course).

Well...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28003

...someone did. I laughed when I saw this.

...

I really like that list.

[jimmerz213]

I really really like the creature base, I think I may try out the ranger and see how he does. There are some concerns for me about the rest of the deck though.

Is 2x Chain Lightning really better than 2 more Helix? Or even a pair of Jittes? Maybe its just me loving lightning helix but personally Ive had more game saves from Helix than Chain ever gave me and Jitte is just solid.

And the land base seems really vulnerable to me, with that many fetch lands and so few actual mana producers, it just seems like it could be ruined by wastelands. Ive always liked having more mana producers than fetch's myself but if thats not everyones thing, thats cool.

[Jugglin]

I play Chain Lightning instead of Lightning Helix in my deck, because it simply costs 1 mana less, letting me drop another creature with the extra mana.
I never had any issues with aggro racing me for life, since you normaly have enough creatures. Jitte is more of a sideboard card when you face lots of Goblins or something like that in your meta.
Merfolk should never be a problem, even without Jittes.

[tpnp]

Is 2x Chain Lightning really better than 2 more Helix? Or even a pair of Jittes? Maybe its just me loving lightning helix but personally Ive had more game saves from Helix than Chain ever gave me and Jitte is just solid.

Chain is also the only Sorcery in the deck which is probably why they were run, even as a two-of.

[jimmerz213]

I play Chain Lightning instead of Lightning Helix in my deck, because it simply costs 1 mana less, letting me drop another creature with the extra mana.
I never had any issues with aggro racing me for life, since you normaly have enough creatures. Jitte is more of a sideboard card when you face lots of Goblins or something like that in your meta.
Merfolk should never be a problem, even without Jittes.

I dont know about that. Sure, early game the 1 mana makes a bit of a difference, but late game in topdeck mode its irrelevant. And at that point, Id much rather have the 3 lifegain too, regardless of board position. People tend to run jitte SB but I cant seem to justify cutting it from the MB in my list. It just does what it does so well. I love the ability to clear their board with removing tokens (which saves burn for troublesome stuff or game wins) and at the absolute worst (this has happened once) I played one just to blow up one that was equipped on a wake thrasher on the other side of the table G1.


Chain is also the only Sorcery in the deck which is probably why they were run, even as a two-of.

I dont really buy that as a reason to run a card, especially as just a 2 of. If your going to make that arguement then it should probably be as a 4 of with no Helixes.

[DragoFireheart]

I really don't like chain. Sure, it's a sorcery speed lightning bolt, but helix will help out vs Storm decks as it forces them to build up a higher storm count.

[jimmerz213]

I really don't like chain. Sure, it's a sorcery speed lightning bolt, but helix will help out vs Storm decks as it forces them to build up a higher storm count.

Not to mention, but casting it in response to them doing a storm 10 tendrils is pretty funny.

[DragoFireheart]

Not to mention, but casting it in response to them doing a storm 10 tendrils is pretty funny.

Yeah, that would be pretty funny. :laugh:


Also, there is a rare chance that someone can bounce the CL back at you (though I doubt it's that relevant all of the time). The fact that it's sorcery speed is what puts me off of using CL.

[hungryLIKEALION]

In an older version of my zoo list when I was still running hellspark I would have run chain in addition to helix, but I will not cut helix from my deck now. The 3 life is awesome in the mirror and against pretty much any deck in the format. Yeah it costs an extra mana, but I think it's worth it for the better card.

[DragoFireheart]

So what's the verdict on Kird Ape? Is he still worth running, or is he too small in Gofy world?

[Seb]

I think that with the recent demise of Mogg Fanatic, Kird Ape can indeed have a spot in zoo, even if it's just a bad Nacatl.

My usual creature base for Zoo is :
4 x Grim Lavamancer
4 x Wild Nacatl
4 x Kird Ape
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Qasali Pridemage

[Valtrix]

I very much want to put this deck together; however, I want to come up with a fairly strong list before I invest in the final parts for it. As such I'm very interested in doing a good deal of testing for this deck (albeit on MWS, since I don't know of anything better). If anybody would like to help, by either piloting either zoo or the decks to test against, please send me a PM and/or contact me on AIM. We can talk from there on how to go about it. Thanks.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I constantly cut Kird Ape and then re-add him. I think my final thoughts on the subject now are that while he does kind of suck, not having him to play on turn 1 sucks more.

[B is for Big Job]

Yep, hes one of those guys that you want in the first few turns and then when you top deck him late game instead of a burn spell for the win its like, fucking kird ape.

[keys]

I'm about finished building Zoo and I just wanted to post my list, so if there are any glaring mistakes someone please point them out. It's a pretty standard list:

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Relic of Progenitus

Should the Horizon Canopy be a Bloodstained Mire?

[Svenyboy]

Here is a Zoo deck from a friend of mine:

Creature:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress

Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning

Land:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Winswepth Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

-> With Knight we have a big thread in mid and late game. And i think that's to way to go to get a bigger creature as goyf and Stalker. Furthermore he has got a great synergie with Grim Lavamancer because he fills our GY and we have more food for Lavamancer. (We take for example Bolt and Jet for Lavamancer and all Landcards stay in the GY to pump our Knight). I want to play 1 Terravore but he isn't necessary because Knight and goyf are bigger and he is to expensive in different to Knight (Knight is 2/2 without land cards, gravehate wouldn't make problems, but Terravore would die).
I have cut 1 Fireblast and 1 PoP for the Knight. I think Blast and PoP are good Finisher but they make problems with our Manabase. Thats the reason to play 3 and not the playset and the slot is free for our Knight.
I'm testing the list with 4 Lightning Helix for 4 Chain Lightning but it's to slow for an Burnspell in my opinion.

Greets Sven.

[jimmerz213]

@Keys
The deck looks good, its burn heavy which some people like more than the more creature aggro type. The only thing Im worried about is Fireblast. Certain decks are probably going to deny you some mana source (given how burn heavy yours is, I wouldnt be surprised if they chose red). Have you ever found yourself with one of them dead in your hand because you only had one mountain or none at all? Any particular reason to run Thoctar over KoR? To me, the Knight would fix any issue you had keeping red out (for fireblast) and not requiring that very color would also give you the edge in casting him if someone did deny you it.
As for the fetch..Ive never been a fan of Mire's in Naya Zoo. The black side does you no good. The canopy would probably be the better play imo.

@Bitchtoken
Same kind of deal it looks like, burn heavy. You only have white in the Knight/Pridemage why no Swords/PtE? It will outperform any burn spell all day (as for being a 1 for 1). Im not 100% sold on fireblast either. In sligh, definitely since you have a ton of mountains, but in Zoo..I just dont know. Also, probably influenced by my meta (very few non basics aside from mine) I dont like PoP main deck. But then again, thats probably a meta call. I play in a rather...janky one. Chain is definitely too slow (as you said). Thats the spell I could see cut for 4 Swords/PtE. Oh and what about equipment? Jitte is a house with this deck, SB or MB is your choice but I strongly urge it.

[J.V.]

In my recent testing with Zoo, the card I never want to see has been Chain Lightning, the fact that it is sorcery speed has actually got me to the point of cutting it, this is the list I'm currently playing...
Lands:21
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Creatures:22
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nactal
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vexing Shusher

Noncreature Spells:17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

Sideboard:15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Choke
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Price of Progress

[Svenyboy]

4 Qasali Pridemage and 2 Vexing Shusher are defenetly to much for main. I would cut the Shusher and play more beater like Woolly Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary. Maybe a onedrop with Isamaru. Furthermore I would play more Burn because you have then more food for your Lavamancer because PtoExile can be a dead card (Fastcombo etc.).

[ShadowOfTitans]

I am putting this deck together for legacy since I play a standard version of it, and it is a lot of fun. I do have a few questions about it (and yes I did read almost the entire thread first).

1. Is ranger of eos too slow for this format/deck? I like that it can search out threats if you start to run out of gas in the midgame against control decks. I saw very little mention of him in the thread, so I'm assuming he doesn't merit space in this format.

2. If my list is playing both lavamancer and jotun grunt, is tarmogoyf as strong here as he is in most other decks? (I want to run them, but honestly being back in the game for a month, the price he is at is a little nauseating.) I fully understand that a deck without tarmo won't be as effective as one with the full 4 copies.

3. A lot of lists seem to be running 1 or 2 of Gaddock in the board, how effective is that number without any way to draw additional cards or tutor/search him up in any way?

This is really a very interesting deck, and look forward to seeing it develop more as more sets are released.

Thanks in advance
SoT

[jimmerz213]

1. Is ranger of eos too slow for this format/deck? I like that it can search out threats if you start to run out of gas in the midgame against control decks. I saw very little mention of him in the thread, so I'm assuming he doesn't merit space in this format.


He is a really interesting card. Ive been toying with the idea of running him as a 2 of but Im still skeptical. We only really started discussing him recently (thats why he hasnt been mentioned much) but that doesnt mean hes not good. Granted, a 3/2 for 4 is usually bad, but the guaranteed creatures is nice. Its iffy, and probably will ultimately come down to your play style, but I kinda see him as a 30% chance.




2. If my list is playing both lavamancer and jotun grunt, is tarmogoyf as strong here as he is in most other decks? (I want to run them, but honestly being back in the game for a month, the price he is at is a little nauseating.) I fully understand that a deck without tarmo won't be as effective as one with the full 4 copies.


No...goyf...huh? I kid, I kid. I have actually been siding out my Goyfs for a set of Grunts lately it seems like. The opponent never expects it and if they are running goyfs, they really help neuter them. If you are going to play without Goyfs, its not the end of the world. It just might make some games a little rougher. Running both lavamancer and grunts is going to be very GY intensive though, it could prove to be a bit much.



3. A lot of lists seem to be running 1 or 2 of Gaddock in the board, how effective is that number without any way to draw additional cards or tutor/search him up in any way?


One thing this deck lacks is tutoring, your totally right. I have seen a lot more lists running Sylvan library lately, you may want to look into that. Its a solid card since the life you loose for holding a card can easily be negated by Helix and Jitte. Without Library though, I have had a hard time finding those clutch cards in the past. I run chants in the SB and I had to rely on some epic top decking to win a storm matchup.


Hope that helps!

[georgjorge]

Anyone tried playing Mold Adder instead of Kird Ape in the main ? Ape only beats for two, and while Mold Adder sometimes will remain a 1/1, against most of the decks in the format it will attack for two on the second turn, and have the potential to outgrow the other creatures shortly afterwards. It all depends on your meta of course, but just looking at the DTB, there isn't much that doesn't play either blue or black, and even one or two blue/black spells are enough to make it an efficient beater...

[sauce]

a definite 2/3 vs a maybe 2/2 seems pretty easy to pick the 2/3 over it.
kird ape is probably one of the best creature 1 drops in the format, not in the same league as mold adder, which is situational/crappy.

[DragoFireheart]

Anyone tried playing Mold Adder instead of Kird Ape in the main ? Ape only beats for two, and while Mold Adder sometimes will remain a 1/1, against most of the decks in the format it will attack for two on the second turn, and have the potential to outgrow the other creatures shortly afterwards. It all depends on your meta of course, but just looking at the DTB, there isn't much that doesn't play either blue or black, and even one or two blue/black spells are enough to make it an efficient beater...

Adder sucks vs the Mirrior.

Adder sucks when you top deck it turn 4+.

Adder sucks vs Goblins.


No, I don't see Adder in the maindeck. MAYBE in the sideboard, but nto main deck.

[Koby]

I would much rather play Nimble Mongoose before I consider Mold Adder.

[Valtrix]

About ranger of Eos: I would probably run bloodbraid elf before ranger. For starters, they have the same body. Although ranger nets you +1 card advantage over elf (But probably higher card quality), elf is a lot more aggressive, and for that is probably better.

That said I think that 4-drops are probably too much for zoo when we already have so many great options for creatures. Also, I would say that figure > any (most) 4-drops, and he'll be "less" mana-intensive for you.

[keys]

There is something to be said about having a few 3cc+ creatures in the deck to dodge Counterbalance, Chalice, and EE@1. Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary are the best options here.

[Iranon]

A few comments:

- In a conflict between cheap and more reliable/powerful tools for a given role, I'd opt for the former. I find Zoo attractive because it's reasonably fast while staying all-business.

- Anything more than 20 lands seems too much; depending on your curve you might get away with 19.

- If running Tarmogoyf, I'd also run Chain Lightning. Opponents will often provide sorceries for you, but I wouldn't want to count on that.

- Fireblast is excellent. With a slighter greater amount of one-drops, it's more than a finisher; we can often play it on turn 3 to clear a troublesome creature away as we cast a Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome synergy with the Knight if you prefer that (I don't).

*

My preferred maindeck is


//Lands

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

//Creatures

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogyof
3 Wooly Thoctar

//Spells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

[Valtrix]

That seems incredibly unbalanced.

You really, really want qasali pridemage in the list. Honestly, if we didn't have pridemage there would be a lot less reason to play this deck. Little 2/1s or 2/2s are so not worth it. You are not speeding yourself up by running those guys, because they are just going to die to opposing creatures.

4 fireblast is definitely way too much. I don't even think that it needs to be run, but if you want to run it don't run more than 3. Running 4 is just shooting yourself in the foot for when something not so "all-in" could actually help you win the game.

You probably want to run some :w: removal (swords/path), because you really need that "unconditional" removal sometimes.

Also, Jitte is just that good.

I'd go like this:

-4 Savannah lions
-3 Isamaru
-1-2 Fireblast
+4 qasali pridemage
+2-3 Umezawa's Jitte
+1-3 :w: removal

[Volt]

Ditto on Pridemages. So good!

I like Hatfield's version of the deck, except I slightly prefer Lightning Helix to Chain Lightning.

[Iranon]

Fireblast and small fry go well together; with a cheap consistent offense Fireblast becomes useful to clear the path and is more than a finisher. With 12 burn spells and Lavamancer, the creatures don't need to go all the way... get in some quick damage, stall until you can burn them out works quite nicely.

In testing, the list played really well... that Tarmogoyf often felt like the weakest link next to the 4th Fireblast (despite running sorceries myself) is a good sign imo.

*

The main problem I see is sideboading: Boarding in utility slows the deck down, which suddenly makes the whole concept a little iffy. If we can't finish the game with an alpha strike/burn after tough blockers show up, the lack of white removal becomes an issue; Lavamancer seems a little anaemic for controlling the midgame compared to Jitte and so on.

As such, any sideboard cards that aren't threats themselves become a lot weaker.

[Skeggi]

I would much rather play Nimble Mongoose before I consider Mold Adder.
I think that goes a bit too far, unless you don't run any Grim Lavamancers.

[hungryLIKEALION]

A few comments:

- In a conflict between cheap and more reliable/powerful tools for a given role, I'd opt for the former. I find Zoo attractive because it's reasonably fast while staying all-business.

- Anything more than 20 lands seems too much; depending on your curve you might get away with 19.

- If running Tarmogoyf, I'd also run Chain Lightning. Opponents will often provide sorceries for you, but I wouldn't want to count on that.

- Fireblast is excellent. With a slighter greater amount of one-drops, it's more than a finisher; we can often play it on turn 3 to clear a troublesome creature away as we cast a Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome synergy with the Knight if you prefer that (I don't).

*

My preferred maindeck is


//Lands

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

//Creatures

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogyof
3 Wooly Thoctar

//Spells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

No offense, but that list looks horrible. I'm sure the goldfish is fast, but seriously, hello EE.

[Svenyboy]

A few comments:

- In a conflict between cheap and more reliable/powerful tools for a given role, I'd opt for the former. I find Zoo attractive because it's reasonably fast while staying all-business.

- Anything more than 20 lands seems too much; depending on your curve you might get away with 19.

- If running Tarmogoyf, I'd also run Chain Lightning. Opponents will often provide sorceries for you, but I wouldn't want to count on that.

- Fireblast is excellent. With a slighter greater amount of one-drops, it's more than a finisher; we can often play it on turn 3 to clear a troublesome creature away as we cast a Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome synergy with the Knight if you prefer that (I don't).

*

My preferred maindeck is


//Lands

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

//Creatures

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogyof
3 Wooly Thoctar

//Spells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast


The list is very very bad. Figure of Destiny isn't a good Creature for Zoo, to slow, not strong enough. Same Savannah Lions. Furthermore you don't fill your Grave for Lavamancer and that's horrible. play more burn with Magma Jet and PoP.

[B is for Big Job]

challice at one looks like gg, follow up with a challice at 2 is a scoop em up buttercup


Proper capitalization is required on this site. Please use it. Thanks.

- Zilla

[rancOr_]

This is the list im going to play.
Any idea's/tips about the sb(or mb) are welcome.
Anyone familiar with the deck can post SBplans against most decks?
+what is the best anti-combo option?

4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire
3 taiga
3 plateau
2 mountain
1 forest
1 plains
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
4 grim lavamancer
4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
2 woolly thoctar
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
3 fireblast
3 price of progress
sb:
3 choke
2 krosan grip
3 red elemental blast
3 vexing shusher
4 pyrostatic pillar

[Koby]

Ethersworn Canonist and gaddock Teeg are great combo options. I'm not sure how effective REB is going to be - what will you be using it against and specifically which actions?

Using a REB to counter a blue counterspell is not effective use of the card slot. You would rather play something that is either a threat or finds more threats. REB does neither. It's just card disadvantage. Overmaster is better at that point. Orim's Chant is probably better for the same and arguably better effect.

You also already run Vexing Shusher, so...?

[jimmerz213]

Like ruckus said, Teeg and Ethersworn are your best shots for anti combo, with a nod to Chant too, its done me good in the past.
REB is actually one of my favorite anti blue sb cards. Mainly because it can counter or act as 1cc removal of a blue threat. It can be pretty clutch sometimes, but I guess its personal preference.
What about some kind of equipment MB? As creature heavy as your list is, jitte would fit nicely. Im thinking something like..

-4 Magma Jet
-1 Chain
-1 Fireblast
+4 Lightning Helix
+2 Jitte

IMO, Jet is over-rated in Zoo. Especially with the ability to run Helix. It is a sweet card in Sligh, but I like the extra damage + life from helix.

[Koby]

Totally agree on Magma Jet. I give in and only run 2 simply because there isn't enough good burn to go around and I need some sort of control over my draw step for when topdecks eventually happen//need to find an answer for Goyf/Stalker.

When in doubt... dome!

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@rancOr_

I run the following SB.

4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pithing Needle
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Teeg
2x Pyrostatic Pillar

I've loved Needle, like all the way, it's useful in almost all matchups. I'm thinking about cutting it because lately in my meta, it's become not that great. I love Pillar, it works against combo and Enchantress and helps race some decks. It's just an all around good card. Grudge is a must in my opinion. If you meta has more CB then run Grip. Grudge just fucks up random decks. I run a 4of Crypt because i like grave hate and don't feel like losing to random Ichorid decks that show up, and they do most of the time.

Tune it to your Metagame man is all i can tell ya. I'll give you my opinion on all cards :cool:

@everyone else: I've missed you guys. I came back from vacation fucking sunburned all to hell. I'm jonesing for some magic. So i hope to post a report next Wednesday when i rape weekly Legacy. Peace.

[jimmerz213]

Im officially done playing Kird Ape..I took Zoo to the PTG Tropical Island event today and there were several times I wished he was anything other than he was. Im pretty sure I sided him out every game. Ill post a report later today or tomorrow, but it wasnt the best ive done. 7th out of 16, should have done better but I got horribly land screwed round 4. Thats how it happens sometimes though.

[beastman]

I dropped ape from zoo awhile ago. I really think there are better creatures to be running in the 1 slot. Personally, I like figure, as he gives you some thing to do with dead mana, rather than just sitting there looking dumb.

[chokin]

Depending on your meta, he can be really strong or really lackluster. Wasteland heavy fields are going to make Nacatl worse than Ape. Under these conditions, you're going to have to grab a red source, then a green, then a white. Or maybe a green then a red, depending on your hand.

If you play in an area with few decks that run Wasteland, Ape shines less. You can get away with going for 2 duals off the bat, making Nacatl a 3/3 while Ape is stuck as a 2/3.

If you really don't like Ape and don't fear nonbasic hate, Watchwolf is a Nacatl for an extra W and doesn't care about the lands you have after. Or that 3/1 for 1R and Unearth is decent if you're picking off their creatures.

I really like Horizon Canopy in this deck, by the way. It hasn't been listed recently or mentioned, but I like that it functions as a land when you need it, and later on it becomes a new card. It's awesome.

Edit: Figure can be awful sometimes though. If I have 3 lands, I'm gonna want Thoctor over FoD. I don't like that he starts out so fragile too...he's pretty mana intensive early on.

[from Cairo]

Edit: Figure can be awful sometimes though. If I have 3 lands, I'm gonna want Thoctor over FoD. I don't like that he starts out so fragile too...he's pretty mana intensive early on.

This isn't really a downside of Figure though. I mean if you have your 3 colors and 3 land you're not really going to want any of the 1 drops when compared to Thoctar or Goyf. Presumably you'll have played out a bit of your hand and probably dropped a couple threats, or one and an answer. If you've hit 3 lands and have to top deck into a 1cc guy I'd much rather it be Figure than Kird Ape, since it can be cast and you can leave red mana up to use burn if needed, otherwise can eot 2/2 it, and if unanswered following attack phase 4/4 it. Most answers that deal with Figure deal with Kird Ape as well.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just think FoD slows down the deck's early game, where Zoo is supposed to be strong. It's more consistent yes, but it doesn't seem worth it, and it was never worth it to me. I played him as a 2of when i first picked up the deck, and i was always faced with playing spells or making him bigger. I could see him being ok in the 4c lists with Vial and more controlling elements.

I'll always love the Kird Ape, and when they print another good 1cc beater, then i can cut Isamaru.

[keys]

How do you guys feel about maindeck Jitte?

[jimmerz213]

How do you guys feel about maindeck Jitte?

Ive never not had MD Jitte. It is amazing in almost every matchup Ive ever had (storm combo being the only real one it doesnt help with)

[keys]

Ive never not had MD Jitte. It is amazing in almost every matchup Ive ever had (storm combo being the only real one it doesnt help with)

How many maindeck/SB? 2 seems like the right number, with possibly a third SB. I think I can take out the 4th Lavamancer and 4th Helix to accommodate them.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

How many maindeck/SB? 2 seems like the right number, with possibly a third SB. I think I can take out the 4th Lavamancer and 4th Helix to accommodate them.

Yeah I've always run MD 2 Jitte. I couldn't see ever wanting for than 3 though, for the obvious reasons. So if you wanna incorporate em then go 2 MD, i SB. I agree with cutting the 4th Mancer as well, since he gets bad in multiples.

[jimmerz213]

I run 2 main as well. Admittadly there have been games where I really wish I could have gotten one and didnt and there have been games when I had both. I wouldnt cut a helix to fit the jitte, however. I think you'd be better off cutting some combination of Fireblast/Chain/Magma Jet. Helix is better (in my opinion) than those three with the possible exception of fireblast since it hits for 1 more and can be "free".

[keys]

This would be my non-creature line up:

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Jitte

I really like having at least 6 bolt effects for early/cheap removal aside from Path. Also, Chain is the only sorcery, and sometimes you can't rely on your opponent to grow Goyf.

I'm thinking about cutting PoP or moving some to the SB to fill out the Chains and Helix (or add Rift Bolt). It can be amazing sometimes but it's not always possible to fetch out only basics, and there are more mono colored Tribal decks around due to M10.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

This would be my non-creature line up:

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Jitte

I really like having at least 6 bolt effects for early/cheap removal aside from Path. Also, Chain is the only sorcery, and sometimes you can't rely on your opponent to grow Goyf.

I'm thinking about cutting PoP or moving some to the SB to fill out the Chains and Helix (or add Rift Bolt). It can be amazing sometimes but it's not always possible to fetch out only basics, and there are more mono colored Tribal decks around due to M10.

I've always felt that way about Sorceries and Goyf, sometimes the two Chains in my dekc aren't enough to get that extra one power. I've never liked PoP in the deck at all. I've always seen it as a SB card if anything. It's good in some matchups and bad in others, what other reason do you need?

[Volt]

This would be my non-creature line up:

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Jitte

I really like having at least 6 bolt effects for early/cheap removal aside from Path. Also, Chain is the only sorcery, and sometimes you can't rely on your opponent to grow Goyf.

I'm thinking about cutting PoP or moving some to the SB to fill out the Chains and Helix (or add Rift Bolt). It can be amazing sometimes but it's not always possible to fetch out only basics, and there are more mono colored Tribal decks around due to M10.

When I play Zoo at my local weekly Legacy tournament, where basic lands abound, I put PoP in the sideboard. When I take Zoo to a larger tournament, where I expect a more developed metagame, PoP goes in the maindeck.

Here's the list I've been playing:

2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Woolly Thoctar

2 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning / Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

I've been pretty happy with the Sylvan Libraries, but I could see Jittes being pretty awesome in those slots, as well.

[MrGarfield]

Hello guys, I am new here in the world of legacy:)
I would like to ask you what do you thing about the new green creature that M10 brings us:
Great sable stag. 1GG. 3/3. Great Sable Stag can't be countered.Protection from blue and from black



As a lot of deck play with blue would it be a nice add-on to the deck?

[Valtrix]

I don't think Sable Stag is a great option for us for these reasons:

1) Pro-blue is rarely relevant, and we beat blue creatures anyway.
2) Same with pro-black, but people just don't play black much nowadays.
3) The uncounterability is nice, but what do we really need it against? We'd like to see it against Landstill, Countertop, maybe a few other things. However, against those decks, a 3/3 with two other irrelevant abilities is unimpressive against them.
4) Also, as for sideboard options, what we "like it against," I think we have better options (Shusher, grip, etc.)
5) It costs 3, which is too slow for a "mere" 3/3 I think.
6) Who wants to pay $10+ for these things?

Those are my thoughts anyway.

[GMTemplar]

Hello guys, I am new here in the world of legacy:)
I would like to ask you what do you thing about the new green creature that M10 brings us:
Great sable stag. 1GG. 3/3. Great Sable Stag can't be countered.Protection from blue and from black

As a lot of deck play with blue would it be a nice add-on to the deck?

No, it would probably be horrible. We get 3/3 for G in Zoo, it would take a game-breaking ability to be worth paying 1GG for.

[KrzyMoose]

Actually, GSS isn't too awful. It could definitely be useful in the SB against Landstill, CounterTop, and Merfolk..but also against Rock/Suicide/etc decks.

That said, the different cards you'd bring in in each of those matchups are better than GSS. So, I'm not entirely sure if it has a place.

[Valtrix]

Actually, GSS isn't too awful.

That's the point. Zoo has so many good and great cards to play that we don't need to settle for something that "isn't too awful."


It could definitely be useful in the SB against Landstill, CounterTop, and Merfolk..but also against Rock/Suicide/etc decks

We want things that are more than just useful, we want things that are necessary or game-breaking.

[MrGarfield]

Ok, thank for the enlightments:-)

An other suggestion, what about nimble mongoose instead of kird ape?

[B is for Big Job]

Reading is tech.

[jimmerz213]

Reading is tech.

So are explanations.

Anyway, if you open your hand with him, hes going to be a 1/1. Kird Ape is likely to be a 2/3. Sure, the shroud helps but by the time you have threshold, you really should have your opponent dead.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Ok, i know this if off topic, but i had a question.

I'm getting to play Legacy after a 2 month absence tomorrow, and i can't get my Zoo foils to flatten out. I left em under a dictionary while i was on vacation and still nothing.

Any suggestions would be uber helpful. Because i want to rape in style tomorrow:cool:

[beastman]

You don't need foils to rape in style. But if your huberus will settle for nothing less, I would suggest keeping them pressed inside a big book until the tournament starts. I used to do that when my foils got bent, and it usually worked for me.

[Valtrix]

Huh, I happened to just see a thread about this the other day. Di recommends putting 4 coins on each of the corners of the foil (that is, under it), then setting something across the top. Well, so the foil can be flexed just a little bit in the opposite direction.

In other news, I'm actually buying cards for this. I just won a foil jitte today :P

And on topic...Yeah, got nothing, sorry.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

You don't need foils to rape in style. But if your huberus will settle for nothing less, I would suggest keeping them pressed inside a big book until the tournament starts. I used to do that when my foils got bent, and it usually worked for me.

Thanks. Yeah i know I'm like uber cocky too, but it comes with my personality i guess.

Do you know how much foil M10 Bolts are running for? I have foreign beta ones i just want to try and foil all my deck.

Edit: I have like half my deck in foil, and i don't think i have that many coins... And wouldn't that leave indention marks on the cards?

[beastman]

Thanks. Yeah i know I'm like uber cocky too, but it comes with my personality i guess.

Do you know how much foil M10 Bolts are running for? I have foreign beta ones i just want to try and foil all my deck.

Foreign beta bolts are as pimp as they come. On star city they are going for 13 at foil, but to be a true pimp, you must get the japanese foils which I would guess are about 30 each.

[Volt]

I'm getting to play Legacy after a 2 month absence tomorrow, and i can't get my Zoo foils to flatten out. I left em under a dictionary while i was on vacation and still nothing.

Been there. Putting them under a book, even for several months, won't do a damn thing. You need to actually bend the cards in the opposite direction for an extended period of time to get the cards to flatten out. Here's what I do:

1. Get an empty 2-liter pop bottle. Remove the wrapper.

2. Put the offending cards in sleeves.

3. Use scotch tape to fasten the sleeved cards to the outside of the pop bottle, so that the curl of the card is inverted. You should be able to fit 4 cards around the circumference of the bottle in this way.

4. Leave the cards like that for 2-5 days, depending on how bad the curling is. Once you remove them, they may be slightly bent in the opposite direction. Don't worry; they'll flatten out before long.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@beastman: I've never been one for foreign foils. And i don't have much money so i have to win to be able to get what i got. I have a German Goyf from my friend, and I've pretty much given up on getting those foil for a while. I'm working on my Jittes now. And i want to foil Isamaru, but he is the next thing to be cut, so much work to be done.

@Volt: Well damn. I would have never about that in a million years. It's also humorous that you called it a "pop" bottle. The people from South just assume that EVERYTHING is coke. Kinda annoying..

Thanks!

[whienot]

Bailey, the coin trick works. I've used it myself and if you keep the cards sleeved you shouldn't get any marks. Use coins on the corners then put like season of DVDs down the middle. It isn't an instant fix but it didn't jack up my cards.

[keys]

1. Get an empty 2-liter pop bottle. Screw the cap on to keep air from getting out.


I bet this would work with a coffee can or something else cylindrical too.

[Finn]

Volt, that is excellent. I simply never use mine but I may try this. I think that advice should be stickied somewhere.

Also, I noticed that nobody ever quite said yes or no when I mentioned Jotun Grunt in my decklist posted a few weeks ago. I tested it some in this deck. And some in another. All alongside Tarmogoyf. And I liked it well enough. I am just unsure in this particular deck. I would love to hear some folks voice opinions.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Volt, that is excellent. I simply never use mine but I may try this. I think that advice should be stickied somewhere.

Also, I noticed that nobody ever quite said yes or no when I mentioned Jotun Grunt in my decklist posted a few weeks ago. I tested it some in this deck. And some in another. All alongside Tarmogoyf. And I liked it well enough. I am just unsure in this particular deck. I would love to hear some folks voice opinions.

Pretty good with Goyf, but bad in combination with Lavamancer AND Goyf.

MD Graveyard hate is pretty sweet too. And 4/4s are good as well.

I ran him for a few weeks, and he was either really good, or shrinked Goyf 1 or 2 power. So it's your call.

Edit:Huberus is pride if i remember correctly. Something of that sort of thing.

[jimmerz213]

Grunt: I like him, havent had a time to play him much but its tempting.

Hubris: Excessive pride to a fault, yea. Its used a lot as a tragic flaw in plays and such.

[Volt]

I bet this would work with a coffee can or something else cylindrical too.

Of course.

[Infinitium]

Hubris. It's basically what greek heroes experience when theyr'e self assertained enough to defy, and consequently get majorly jacked by, fate, the gods, and the world in general.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've never tried running grunt and goyf in the same deck, since usually I run grunt as my anti-goyf weapon. However, depending on your build of the deck, I believe that could be a very legitimate tactic. My build would not be able to play grunt because I play too many permanents, but in a more burn-heavy build I could see it being very good.

[asfas]

Other than Jitte, are extra Paths the best way to board against the mirror?

Also, Wasteland and KotR are sick together.

[MrGarfield]

Do you think Knight of the reliquary can have a place with 8 -10 fetchland and 2-4 wasteland/horizon canopy manabase?

[Koby]

KotR is great in the Extended version, for the sole reason that it needs a 3-drop that is large. We have other requirements however, and a much quicker format. KotR seems like win-more to me. Woolly Thoctar is probably large enough and aggressive enough to fulfill this role.

[jimmerz213]

KotR is great in the Extended version, for the sole reason that it needs a 3-drop that is large. We have other requirements however, and a much quicker format. KotR seems like win-more to me. Woolly Thoctar is probably large enough and aggressive enough to fulfill this role.

Ive actually recently replaced thoctar for Knights. I like that they are easier to cast (no red), they cant be BeB'd or Pyroblasted, and they can ultimately get bigger than Thoctar. I need to do more testing, but Ive always liked him in that slot.

[Valtrix]

I think that Knight is better. He usually will start out a little smaller than thoctar (3/3 or 4/4 easily). While that's a little detriment, the fact that he can always get bigger than other things in the format if you need him to more than makes up for the slight detriment to P/T over thoctar. Keep in mind to that the later you play/draw knight, the more likely that he will in fact just be bigger than thoctar. Then there's also the other little things, like if you're running canopy, he can draw you into some more threats or allowing for a T4 jitte + equip on one of your other guys.

[JediMaster012]

Other than Jitte, are extra Paths the best way to board against the mirror?

Also, Wasteland and KotR are sick together.
This is my first post, so hopefully I'm doing ok by posting here. I managed to go 3-1 at a 25ish person tourney with Zoo, and wanted to share my experience.

One of my rounds was the against another Zoo deck. The main differences was I was running Lightning Helix instead of Price of Progress, and he had Jitte, whereas I did not. I also had Mogg Fanatic instead of lavamancer, because I did not have any at the time. The mirror was actually the only time I was happy to see the fanatic instead of lavamancer

I ended up going 2-0 against him, and both games I beat him because he had Jitte. I would path or burn all his creatures and leave jitte on an empty board. The second game he actually had 2 jitte on the board and no creatures. So maybe I got lucky, but Jitte seemed terrible in the mirror, and in most other games when I played it, it would have been a "win more" card. Lightning Helix was actually one of the better cards in the mirror as well. Playing it basically cancels out one of their burn spells, so it's almost like a cantriping lightning bolt :)

The other rounds were against a mono black deck with a whole bunch of drain life effects. Absolutely nothing in my board or MD was of any use to me against this deck. Added Sulfuric Vortex to the board since then. Went 0-2 and probably would have went 0-10 if we had played 10 games. I also played and beat fairly easily a Merfolk deck and a combo deck. The person with the combo deck was new at playing combo, so I don't think it was a real test of the deck.

[beastman]

Ive actually recently replaced thoctar for Knights. I like that they are easier to cast (no red), they cant be BeB'd or Pyroblasted, and they can ultimately get bigger than Thoctar. I need to do more testing, but Ive always liked him in that slot.


I did the same. He is much better than thoctar as he is easier to cast than thoctar, and if you are running canopy, which you probably should be, he can get much bigger very fast, while he sculpts your hand a little bit at the same time.

[troopatroop]

The second game he actually had 2 jitte on the board and no creatures..

Umm? That can't happen, Jitte is Legendary :) Whoops!

[JediMaster012]

Umm? That can't happen, Jitte is Legendary :) Whoops!
Oops! Either I'm remembering slightly wrong, or there was in fact a slight play error. I think he might've just showed me the second Jitte in his hand after the second game. The game was around a month ago, so my memory is a bit hazy.

Anyway, my point was to say that drawing the Jitte instead of burn/creatures meant that I had enough burn to keep his field clear and not even care about the Jitte at all.

[Valtrix]

Seems atypical. Yeah, jitte can sometimes not do nothing because of an empty board, but more often than not if you play it it's going to do some serious damage.

[KrzyMoose]

Anyone have any good SB plans for Landstill?

[rancOr_]

I mostly do -4 Kird Ape, -3 Chain Lightning +3 Choke, +3 REB, +1 Vexing Shusher(i play 2 MD,hes very very good)
this is my sideboard:
3 choke
3 REB
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Ethersworn canonist

[Valtrix]

I've been toying around with 4 Price of progress and some amount of shushers in the board, although I'm not exactly sure how well that will actually work against Landstill.

EDIT: Also, I'm trying to see if this will work as tech against Aggro Loam too.

[asfas]

Anyone have a plan against GB, especially GB pox? It's such a random, swingy pairing that I can't figure out how to approach it.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've never heard of GB Pox, but if you want to beat Pox most of the time you can auto-win the matchup by running a few aether vials in your sb, or play a few horizon canopies to up your land count. You play plenty of burn to kill them.

[troopatroop]

Anyone have a plan against GB, especially GB pox? It's such a random, swingy pairing that I can't figure out how to approach it.

I used to play against alot of Pox, and Compost was always my go to SB card. It's about the best card you could ask for.

[Volt]

I used to play against alot of Pox, and Compost was always my go to SB card. It's about the best card you could ask for.

Seconded. Compost murders black decks.

[KrzyMoose]

I ran this at a Mox tournament over the weekend, and went undefeated (I didn't drop a single game), splitting in the top 4.

My list and matchups: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=369199&postcount=19

I would play this exact same maindeck again (for those too lazy to click the link, it's basically Alix Hatfield's list from the SCG 5K and the 40 Duals tournament, just -2 Chain Lightning, +2 Lightning Helix).

The sideboard is pretty much straight forward. The only questionable slots were Sulfuric Vortex and Orim's Chant. The Chants should be Gaddock Teegs, but I couldn't find them the morning of. Sulfuric Vortex is one of my favorite cards - it's basically Phyrexian Arena - and was for the Rock/Landstill/SlowBoardControl.dec matchup.

[Valtrix]

How did the sylvan librarires work out for you? I've really been wanting some sort of draw/card quality that's not magma jet in here =|

Also, how did the Landstill matches go? I have quite a bit of them in my meta, so I'm super worried about improving that MU, and I want to see what ended up working for you.

[KrzyMoose]

How did the sylvan librarires work out for you? I've really been wanting some sort of draw/card quality that's not magma jet in here =|

Sylvan Library is insane. It ensures you never run out of gas. The fact that it doesn't (directly) kill the opponent is not relevant. Like, in one of the games against Landstill, I won through triple Swords, double Wrath, and some number of Counterspell and Force simply because I eventually played Library.


Also, how did the Landstill matches go? I have quite a bit of them in my meta, so I'm super worried about improving that MU, and I want to see what ended up working for you.

Uh, basically Sylvan Library. And Sulfuric Vortex from the Sideboard. Like, all I had to do was play one (sometimes two) threat at a time, and just hang on to the burn spells. All I had to do was wait for the opponent(s) to tap the majority of their lands for Elspeth or Humility or Wrath or whatever irrelevant spell, and then burn their face.

The issue with Landstill is that it spends too much time not doing anything, while all of your cards are must-answers. So, all you have to do is keep on the pressure, and they will not be able to deal with everything.

*edit* For the record, I should say that prior to Friday night, I hadn't played this deck at all (save for a couple MWS matches, which don't count). So, I'm just telling you what worked for me on one day at one tournament.

[Finn]

Krzymoose, I don't know if you were doing this, as your post did not say so specifically, but using Sylvan Library, you basically want to aggressively pay the 4 or 8 life to land additional threats quickly and even to just see the next card. This makes the deck a bit different (you are playing Helix, right? ...and plenty of 1 and 2-drops instead of Reliquary and Thoctar), but it has real potential to win by way of massive card advantage in exchange for meaningless life points against slow ass decks like Landstill.

[KrzyMoose]

Ddefinitely. I used to play Sylvan Library back when Flametongue Kavu was a real card.

Yeh, I usually took 8-12 damage each game from it.

[Thrasher]

i've been playing zoo for a really long time,and this is the list i think better in my metagame,which is full of blue based aggro control,no combo,no aggro except for other zoo,some control deck such as landstill/landeed are pretty popular.
Lands:21
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept heath
2 Bloodstained mire
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Horizon canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures:22
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Knight of the reliquary
3 Figure of destiny

Spells:17
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain lightning
3 Path to exile
3 Price of progress
2 Umezawa's jitte
2 Fireblast

Sideboard:
4 Vexing shusher
4 Pithing needle
3 Krosan grip
4 Gaddock teeg

I think figure is the best cc1 drop (except nacatl maybe) vs aggr control/control,if they play a chalice or countertop after you play figure,you can still use your mana to have a big beater.Price of progress is another card i think is great:In a metagame with lots of nonbasic is massive,but sometimes it is useless,sometimes hurts me more than the opponent.
Do you think this list is good for the metagame i described before?or i should change something?(maybe switch jitte for sylvan library,price for lightning helix or anything else)

[Nelis]

Ddefinitely. I used to play Sylvan Library back when Flametongue Kavu was a real card.

Yeh, I usually took 8-12 damage each game from it.

I tried Sylvan Library a bit and was impressed. Did you ever consider putting 3 in the deck? If not, can you tell me why?

[Seb]

I'm currently looking at the Hatfield take on Zoo (Library, Knight of the Reliquary, etc.). I'm finding it quite interesting, looks like a version of Zoo that doesn't empty it's hand on turn 4 and keeps putting pressure.

There's some card choice that I understand, but also some that I find more weird. I'm in no way a Zoo expert, so if a more experienced user of this deck could enlighten me about card choices, it would be appreciated!

Sylvan Library : Great draw engine if you're ahead on life, make sure you don't run out of gas, can hide key cards to discard decks, etc. Why 2? I understand that's because you NEVER want to see 2 of them in a single game.

Knight of the Reliquary : That's the first I'm skeptical about. There's no land toolbox to fetch into (except Canopy), it costs 3, starts usually smaller than Goyf, is in 2 colors. Is it's synergy with Horizon Canopy worth it (fetch Canopy, sac Canopy = +1 card, +2/+2)? Or is it just a way to vary CMC to bypass CB/Top.

Horizon Canopy : Can't be fetched into, pings you. Probably good with Knight on the other hand, and can be used to see another card. Any other use I'm not aware of?

Lightning Helix : Seems quite intuitive here. Gain some life lost via Canopy/Library. Great in the mirror. But why 2? I would put 4 of them, probably cutting Price of Progress. It lets you use your Library much more.

Price of Progress : Why maindeck, considering that's it's far more likely to harm us than our opponent. In the side, it could be good against slow deck with nonbasics (Landstill), but it seems like suicide with all our nonbasic + Library + Canopy.

Path to Exile : This one seems quite intuive, to kill bigger creatures like Goyf or an unanswered Lorescale Coalt. Lets you keep your burn to send to the player, or simply not waste 2 burns on 1 creature. Is 4 the good number? I'm thinking more about 3.

That's it for my questions. Any answer would be appreciated. I'll probably test the deck Tuesday. I'll come back with more questions and maybe some answers!

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I'll try and answer these to the best of my knowledge, since they seem fairly straightforward to me:

Sylvan Library : Great draw engine if you're ahead on life, make sure you don't run out of gas, can hide key cards to discard decks, etc. Why 2? I understand that's because you NEVER want to see 2 of them in a single game.
The explanation I got was thus: Zoo is a hyper-aggressive deck whose sole consideration is toward the early game. Any cards not fitting that criteria need to offer a disproportionately massive advantage in the mid/late game to offset the opportunity cost of the early game spell they replace.

From that, I would say it's logical to assume 2 is the best number because you're unlikely to draw multiples, you leave maximum space for important early game spells and you will probably draw one by or around the time you need it.

Knight of the Reliquary : That's the first I'm skeptical about. There's no land toolbox to fetch into (except Canopy), it costs 3, starts usually smaller than Goyf, is in 2 colors. Is it's synergy with Horizon Canopy worth it (fetch Canopy, sac Canopy = +1 card, +2/+2)? Or is it just a way to vary CMC to bypass CB/Top.
This is an open slot previously filled by Woolly Thoctar- he's not competing with goyf, so the comparison is mute. Most sourcers prefer Knight because he's fucking massive by midgame and he's less color intensive than Thoctar. But, he also takes longer to get online and has dissynergy with Lavamancer. Me, I'm about 50/50 at this point. I tend to switch them back and forth pretty often.

Horizon Canopy : Can't be fetched into, pings you. Probably good with Knight on the other hand, and can be used to see another card. Any other use I'm not aware of?
Many pages back, Alix Hatfield posted probably the most brilliant explanation for this card I've read. I highly suggest finding it and reading it. I used to run 0. After reading his post and subsequent testing, I now swear by 3. If it produced red I would run 4 and be sad I couldn't have more. One of the most useful lands in the deck bar none.

Price of Progress : Why maindeck, considering that's it's far more likely to harm us than our opponent. In the side, it could be good against slow deck with nonbasics (Landstill), but it seems like suicide with all our nonbasic + Library + Canopy.
This is untrue. Zoo can function entirely off of 3 lands (its basics), which can be fetched (and in so doing, pumping Knight and removing themselves from PoP's area of affect). Every competitive deck in Legacy runs nonbasics and almost all of them are more dependent. I rarely take more than 4 (sometimes 6) damage in exchange for 10-12 on my opponent. Probably my favorite topdeck and the card which most often leads to a game win.

[KrzyMoose]

IsThisACatInAHat? pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I'll add my own thoughts.


Knight of the Reliquary : That's the first I'm skeptical about. There's no land toolbox to fetch into (except Canopy), it costs 3, starts usually smaller than Goyf, is in 2 colors. Is it's synergy with Horizon Canopy worth it (fetch Canopy, sac Canopy = +1 card, +2/+2)? Or is it just a way to vary CMC to bypass CB/Top.

Knight is better than Thoctar (as ITACIAH? said, those slots are usually between those two cards) for a couple of reasons. More than half of the lands in the deck will eventually end up in the Graveyard - 9 fetches and 3 Canopy. So, more often than not, KotR is a HUGE/HUGE, whereas Thoctar can only ever be a 5/4. Also, you can't BEB Knight, and it's usually hard to Counterbalance him. Also, he can't be Threads of Disloyalty'ed.

I wouldn't say that he has dissynergy with Lavamancer, necessarily. I mean, sure, they can sometimes clash, but it's usually not relevant, and you usually have enough gas in your Graveyard to fuel Lavamancer, anyway.

KotR has INSANE synergy with Fireblast, though.


Lightning Helix : Seems quite intuitive here. Gain some life lost via Canopy/Library. Great in the mirror. But why 2? I would put 4 of them, probably cutting Price of Progress. It lets you use your Library much more.

I would not run more than two for this reason: Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. You don't need more, and you really don't want more, 3 damage burn than you already have. I mean, yes it helps buffer your life total a little, but that's usually pretty irrelevant.


Price of Progress : Why maindeck, considering that's it's far more likely to harm us than our opponent. In the side, it could be good against slow deck with nonbasics (Landstill), but it seems like suicide with all our nonbasic + Library + Canopy.

You are the Aggro deck. You're life total should be higher than the opponent's. I would gladly pay 6 life to kill my opponent.


Path to Exile : This one seems quite intuive, to kill bigger creatures like Goyf or an unanswered Lorescale Coalt. Lets you keep your burn to send to the player, or simply not waste 2 burns on 1 creature. Is 4 the good number? I'm thinking more about 3.

Every deck (for the most part) runs Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought, or Tombstalker (or some other giant guy). You want to get them out of the way. Path let's you do it without giving your opponent life. Now, there was (and probably still is) a debate over whether or not Path was better than Swords. I think that you should just run whatever you want to, but I will say that Path's drawback is rarely relevant in this format.

[Soldar]

I'm no expert on the Zoo archetype, but I was playtesting with KrzyMoose the night before he wrecked our local Mox tournament and came to this conclusion about Path to Exile (I was playing 4c Aggro-Loam):

Any of the decks that play a light number of basic lands (2-3) are going to be fetching out their basic lands to play around Price of Progress, since we all know it's coming. Path to Exile quickly becomes ridiculous in those matchups. There will be times when you have to throw one early, but there will also be times where you get to have the cheapest removal spell with no drawback against a Tombstalker or a Goyf.

[Nelis]

I'll try and answer these to the best of my knowledge, since they seem fairly straightforward to me:

The explanation I got was thus: Zoo is a hyper-aggressive deck whose sole consideration is toward the early game. Any cards not fitting that criteria need to offer a disproportionately massive advantage in the mid/late game to offset the opportunity cost of the early game spell they replace.

From that, I would say it's logical to assume 2 is the best number because you're unlikely to draw multiples, you leave maximum space for important early game spells and you will probably draw one by or around the time you need it.

I've always felt that 2 copies of one card is too small a number to reliably draw it when you really need it. I'm inclined to always put in at least 3 copies.

But aside from that, I wonder if it's really problematic with 8+ fetch and the choice not to draw the second copy. I mean, how often do you actually need all three cards you've draw with Sylvan Library or even have enough lands in play to cast those 3 cards anyway.

[Valtrix]

I've always felt that 2 copies of one card is too small a number to reliably draw it when you really need it. I'm inclined to always put in at least 3 copies.

But aside from that, I wonder if it's really problematic with 8+ fetch and the choice not to draw the second copy. I mean, how often do you actually need all three cards you've draw with Sylvan Library or even have enough lands in play to cast those 3 cards anyway.

This is true, but a lot of times 2 is the right number for cards that you like to see, that have a lot of effect, but that you don't really need to see or especially really really hate to see multiples of. Under that extra criteria I would say that library would fit as a 2-of. It's not needed, but the effect can be huge.

[jazzykat]

I see how no qusali pridemage builds have been very successful. However, given that cb has to be the worst thing for this deck besides chalice=1 And shackles all of which it kills I am interested in the reasoning for not including it.

[Svenyboy]

Hello everybody,

that's my RGW Zoo:


Creature:
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
4 Path to Exile

Land:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
4 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pyrostatic Pillar


Cardchoice:

Knight of the Reliquary: A good Beater. He can be bigger than Goyf and makes a good lategame. Furthermore he gives us a constant manabase and protects for manascrew. Beside he synergies 100% with Fireblast.
Knight>Thoctar.

Lightning Helix: Good Lifegain. That's important for the mirror vs. Price of Progress.

Path to Exile: I try to win the game with Goyf, Nacatl and Knight. Tombstalker and Dreadnoughts are targets of Exile because they defend us and have a easy game. Very important to have a safe game.

I don't play Lavamancer because he is to mana intensely.
I don't play Price of Progress because he makes to much damage for myself. Beside you can play around PoP with Basics.

Choke: The win card about Blue.

Sulfuric Vortex: Landstill! We don't like the wishboard with pulse of the fields. Furthermore good for the lategame.

Krosan Grip: No explanation. 2 because Pridemage.

Umezwa's Jitte: Mirror.

Tormod's Crypt: Fastcombo.


What do you think about my Build?

[sco0ter]

4 Fireblast


If I played Zoo I'd only play 2-3 of them. It's card that you only want to see once in a game as finisher.

[Svenyboy]

If I played Zoo I'd only play 2-3 of them. It's card that you only want to see once in a game as finisher.

But I think 2 in game are good, too. You can pump your Knight and he can finish the game.

[Valtrix]

2 fireblasts are definitely way too much. It is not good, since you may not have that many mountains, and fireblas is one of the last cards you want to play in a game. You need at most 3, but I personally I still wouldn't play more than 2. You really don't want to draw it that much, and since you're playing 4 Knights, you already have things in your hand you may not be able to play. I would cut 1 fireblast for a horizon canopy. Since you're running knight you should run at least 1, and the extra help against mana denial is very useful.

Also, what is the justification for pyrostatic pillar in the board? I feel like you could get more useful things, especially since it hurts you so much.

[MMogg]

2 fireblasts are definitely way too much. It is not good, since you may not have that many mountains, and fireblas is one of the last cards you want to play in a game. You need at most 3, but I personally I still wouldn't play more than 2. You really don't want to draw it that much, and since you're playing 4 Knights, you already have things in your hand you may not be able to play. I would cut 1 fireblast for a horizon canopy. Since you're running knight you should run at least 1, and the extra help against mana denial is very useful.

Also, what is the justification for pyrostatic pillar in the board? I feel like you could get more useful things, especially since it hurts you so much.

Maybe it's just a reflection of how crappy MWS draws are, but I playtested 2 and never drew one in about 10 matches. :confused: Zoo has no library manipulation so 3-4 of whatever you think is necessary might be worthwhile to ensure drawing one.

[KrzyMoose]

Zoo has no library manipulation

You should be playing 2 Sylvan Library. That card is bonkers.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure Alix Hatfield's list is 98% optimal.

[MMogg]

You should be playing 2 Sylvan Library. That card is bonkers.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure Alix Hatfield's list is 98% optimal.

But then we're back to the same problem of drawing them. :frown: Cards you only run two copies of in Zoo are not easily drawn, including Sylvan.

I'm not to keen on his use of Knight of the Reliquary either, both as a comparison to Thoctar and only running two.

Alix Hatfield placed 4th when he used Thoctar and 7th when he used KotR. :wink:

[Manhattan]

But then we're back to the same problem of drawing them. :frown: Cards you only run two copies of in Zoo are not easily drawn, including Sylvan.

I'm not to keen on his use of Knight of the Reliquary either, both as a comparison to Thoctar and only running two.

Alix Hatfield placed 4th when he used Thoctar and 7th when he used KotR. :wink:

Two results don't really qualify as a statistic.

[MMogg]

Two results don't really qualify as a statistic.

Hence the wink --> :wink:

[Valtrix]

(You may be just joking about thoctar, but to reiterate in case)Knight is simply better because he can always become bigger than tarmogoyf, and almost every other creature out there. More often than not he will be almost as big as thoctar to begin with, and if you don't need him bigger then you can just swing with him anyway. As an added bonus he can't be REBlasted and you can do tricks with fireblast.

You may want Sylvan as a 3-of, but personally with this deck I hate playing too much of cards I never want to see multiple of in a game, because I've gotten screwed with that so much in the past and I hate it. There's also a big difference between running 2-of something to running 0-of something.

[KrzyMoose]

Oh, I'm in favor of KotR.

But 2-ofs are fine, especially when they're late-ish game cards, which stuff like Sylvan Library, KotR, and Fireblast are.

[MMogg]

(You may be just joking about thoctar, but to reiterate in case)Knight is simply better because he can always become bigger than tarmogoyf, and almost every other creature out there. More often than not he will be almost as big as thoctar to begin with, and if you don't need him bigger then you can just swing with him anyway. As an added bonus he can't be REBlasted and you can do tricks with fireblast.

You may want Sylvan as a 3-of, but personally with this deck I hate playing too much of cards I never want to see multiple of in a game, because I've gotten screwed with that so much in the past and I hate it. There's also a big difference between running 2-of something to running 0-of something.

Hmm, I'll need to test the Knight. He seems ideal against an opponent playing multiple fetches because Zoo does as well. That's also a good point about REBs.

I find I have difficulty drawing 2 ofs and sometimes even 3 ofs. As I said before, maybe it's Magic Workstation giving me bad draws. :frown: I'll try three Sylvans and test her out. :smile:

[Valtrix]

Hmm, I'll need to test the Knight. He seems ideal against an opponent playing multiple fetches because Zoo does as well.

Keep in mind that Knight only cares about your lands, so don't think he's a terravore :P It shouldn't matter how many fetches your opponent plays to use him (Except every point of damage does help us.) Also, if you run knight try running a horizon canopy or two. It does a lot of good things by making sure you have enough mana to play things quickly, then drawing you into a threat later. It's extra good with knight because if you need him to get bigger you can go get that and then draw, since you likely didn't need that third land besides playing knight.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I still remember the very first time I posted about Knight on here, and how so many people were against me... I'm pretty happy to see so much of the community has come around to my perspective on it :)

[MMogg]

Keep in mind that Knight only cares about your lands, so don't think he's a terravore :P It shouldn't matter how many fetches your opponent plays to use him (Except every point of damage does help us.) Also, if you run knight try running a horizon canopy or two. It does a lot of good things by making sure you have enough mana to play things quickly, then drawing you into a threat later. It's extra good with knight because if you need him to get bigger you can go get that and then draw, since you likely didn't need that third land besides playing knight.

Hehe, Oops, I totally misread him. Wow, he's even weaker than I had thought. I'll try him out nevertheless, but I'm just not feeling it looking at him on paper. At best he's a turn three 4/4, who may or may not get bigger. As you can probably tell, when it comes to playing an aggro deck I'm more into reliability and stability than tricks and situational cards.

[Valtrix]

Isn't a card that can always outclass most other threats better than something that is a static 5/4? And a turn three 4/4 is not really worse than a 5/4 for our purposes, especially when that 4/4 turns into a 6/6 and then doesn't die to the 4/5 goyf.

[MMogg]

I still remember the very first time I posted about Knight on here, and how so many people were against me... I'm pretty happy to see so much of the community has come around to my perspective on it :)

Funny when that happens. :)


Isn't a card that can always outclass most other threats better than something that is a static 5/4? And a turn three 4/4 is not really worse than a 5/4 for our purposes, especially when that 4/4 turns into a 6/6 and then doesn't die to the 4/5 goyf.

Of course Tarmogoyf is better than a static 5/4! :wink: Seriously though, I haven't played with the Knight yet and I'm not convinced (looking at him on paper) that he does outclass most other threats.

I think one problem is I'm thinking of a third turn drop and perhaps you consider him [Knight] good in mid-to-late game.

It's a shame the Knight doesn't activate the ability through a mana cost or something, that way you could swing in and search for land to make him increasingly bigger. But the way the ability is, you need to sacrifice one turn's attack to activate his ability to make him bigger. Either that or hope to keep topdecking fetches and Canopy.

Edit: Keep in mind the 4/4 is optimal if you fetch three times in your first three turns, and the pumping up isn't a guarantee either.

[Valtrix]

No, he'd be a 5/5. He starts as a 2/2 and gets +1/+1 for each land in your graveyard. Also, yes you sacrifice a turn of attack, but the next turn you can attack without fear of your knight dying versus a creature that probably would have killed thoctar. And if there is no fear, well you can probably just attack anyway. And yeah, you're looking at him as a third-turn drop, which you can, but you generally have a lot of other great plays to do before he needs to come down anyway.

[MMogg]

No, he'd be a 5/5. He starts as a 2/2 and gets +1/+1 for each land in your graveyard. Also, yes you sacrifice a turn of attack, but the next turn you can attack without fear of your knight dying versus a creature that probably would have killed thoctar. And if there is no fear, well you can probably just attack anyway. And yeah, you're looking at him as a third-turn drop, which you can, but you generally have a lot of other great plays to do before he needs to come down anyway.

Hmm, you make a good case. :smile: My question to you is, what usually takes out your Thoctar, apart from Goyfs?

[Valtrix]

Isn't that enough? :P

There isn't a ton else, but occasionally you run into a tombstalker, or maybe a countryside crusher that you're lucky (but unlucky that you couldn't already kill) didn't get too gigantic. Maybe if you play the mirror and have an opposing thoctar/knight.

[ReverentChastity]

I threw together a Zoo list to playtest with against some friends, and I can say 2 of Sylvan Library is amazing. If you don't see it, no big deal, when you see one, 8-12 life for 2-3 cards and a fetch to refresh the top 3 goes a long way. I also ran 2 Fireblast, same deal, never see it no big deal, draw into 1 mid game and win. Also good with Knight of the Reliquary which I just ran 2 of. I wouldn't run these cards any other way but 2/2/2. Though a 3rd Library is tempting I think its not necessary.

[Gibbie_X]

With the card drawing problem, would Sensei's Divining Top help at all. You can always cast it, and with as many shuffle effects as Zoo runs, seems to me you could find exactly what you are looking for all the time. The draw back being you slow down a lot. Dropping Top first turn is not as good as a first turn Nacatl, especially if it is followed by Pridemage. If you get that going, next turn Top seems pretty spicy.

[Valtrix]

Library > top in this deck. Sure library has a colored mana and costs one extra, but it's actually much less mana intensive and can give you real card advantage on top of card quality. Shuffle effects are going to help us probably as much with library or with top, so that's hardly an issue.

[druidguru]

I was looking at Alex's list and the one thing I do no understand is how the deck survives against combo? Is there any value in running Gaddock Teeg in the side board or maybe Cannonist?

[Valtrix]

The deck just doesn't survive against combo. These are your options:
1) Try and get a really aggressive start so you can chop their life down to make ad nauseam not good for them.
2) Hope you don't play against combo.

Of the two, 2 works best, but 1 has some shot of working for you. Try and trick them with helix or fireblast.

The biggest issue is that even with teeg/canonist in the board the combo matchup is still pretty sketchy, so there's not much point in devoting those slots to make a horrible matchup only a bad matchup when we could turn a bad matchup into a good one instead.

[keys]

The biggest issue is that even with teeg/canonist in the board the combo matchup is still pretty sketchy, so there's not much point in devoting those slots to make a horrible matchup only a bad matchup when we could turn a bad matchup into a good one instead.

Not necessarily. Teeg is very good versus control too-- stops EE, FoW, Decree, planeswalkers, etc...

Canonist/Teeg split has actually won me quite a few games versus TES. They aren't locks, but they buy you enough time to deal 20 or at least invalidate AdNaus. It's still not in Zoo's favor, but it's not as much of a blow out.

My maindeck is pretty similar to Alix's, but I play this SB:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Open Slot - could be Path to Exile, Price of Progress, Choke, another Fallout or Jitte. Currently PtE.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I do like Teeg a lot. Thing is, there is literally 0 combo in my metagame; People just aren't playing it right now with the popularity of all the blue decks and countertop. That's why it's usually okay to play zoo right now in this metagame. If Combo starts posing a problem in your metagame for you, start maindecking gaddock teeg or canonist. I once won two rounds against two different combo decks (Glimpse Elves and ANT) in a tournament because I scouted the field ahead of time and maindecked 4 ethersworn canonists. That's the nice thing about zoo, the deck can easily accomodate decisions like that.

[asfas]

Not necessarily. Teeg is very good versus control too-- stops EE, FoW, Decree, planeswalkers, etc...

Canonist/Teeg split has actually won me quite a few games versus TES. They aren't locks, but they buy you enough time to deal 20 or at least invalidate AdNaus. It's still not in Zoo's favor, but it's not as much of a blow out.

My maindeck is pretty similar to Alix's, but I play this SB:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Open Slot - could be Path to Exile, Price of Progress, Choke, another Fallout or Jitte. Currently PtE.

What's the Shusher for? I can't think of a single match where I'd want it, especially with 3 Grips.

[SteakKnife]

Why not side Orim's Chant for the ANT/Belcher matchup? I was beat first turn twice last time I played against belcher. Chants or Silence seem like the only first turn option.

[Valtrix]

I don't think chants are a great option. Why? Well
1) Many combo decks play duress/chant themselves. While they may not always use it, they still can, and probably will use them, which negates our chant.
2) To use chant we have to not play things. To not play things means that we're not putting pressure on the combo player, and if they don't have pressure, then they're going to have enough time to win anyway, even if you chant them.
3) Teeg(/canonist) are useful in more matchups than just combo. How much do you expect to run into combo anyway?
4) Combo can go off first turn, but a good chunk of the time I think we'll have that time to get to turn 2, especially if the combo player isn't expecting hate.

[JamSpot]

Has anyone tried Mother of Rune main deck? I saw it being used at the GP Brighton Legacy SE in the UK a few weeks ago. I was amazed how much impact it had. The player also had two Armageddons main deck. I believe he made top 8 out of a field of 68. I'll try and get the decklist and post it up soon.

[Valtrix]

(I haven't actually played with mother, but here's why I wouldn't want to.) I'm not sure Mother is the kind of card we want. Our deck is supposed to be very aggressive, which mother is not. You're not going to want to use her to get unblockable damage, since you're probably saving her back to deal with creature removal. The other thing that I think is that I don't consider mother to be a threat--Every card we draw is good by itself, but I really just don't think mother is good by herself. Sure, she can chump block goyf all day, but at the same time I think if we're just buying turns like that that we're probably going to be losing that game anyway. She also doesn't protect from mass removal, which I consider to be a weakness for this deck.

I guess I fail to see how she would be more useful than just playing another efficient beater or playing burn or removal. (I mean, what are you going to cut for her anyway, and do you want to run 4?)

[hungryLIKEALION]

I actually do like the thought of running mother in zoo. And yes, I do consider her a threat. She basically says "Answer me or lose" to every deck in the format; Nobody can use their spot removal, and this format is dominated by spot removal. She serves a similar role as Aether Vial, where no one will let you resolve it if they can help it, because once active, it will dominate the game. Yes, it dilutes your threats a little, but it also makes every threat more likely to stick. The net threats stuck ends up being higher.

Plus, if you play mother, I GUARANTEE every blue deck will force it every time you play it t1 if they can.

[Valtrix]

How many decks is that protection going to matter against though? Blue decks usually just have 4x swords as spot removal (Or tempo thresh plays bolt and fire//ice, a little more), and other than that we have the mirror which plays a ton of burn. In the first case you're playing a card to shut off only one of theirs, so why not just play another threat to begin with? In the second, well they probably don't need to remove creatures, and if they do then your mother will probably not even live to begin with.

I fail to see how she is actually "Answer me or lose" to every deck in this format. Decks play more than just spot removal.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Not a lot of decks play sweepers right now. Against a blue deck with 4 swords as its spot removal (Plus probably sowers), that's fine for Mother. They now cannot answer your goyf unless they answer mother first; A Kird Ape hardly has such an important effect on the board. And that goes for every deck in the format that cares about the board state and plays spot removal; If all of a deck's removal is dead or requires a 2 for 1 to be usable, that's a really powerful effect.

Now, I'm not saying Mother is the next piece of huge tech that we should all be adopting, but I'd at least consider it as a viable option, and am more than willing to test it out. I played her in one tournament where I ran a ranger of eos toolbox, but I never drew her so it never mattered. I may try her out again now to see if she really is good.

[Thrasher]

Why nobody plays Pithing needle in the board? i run the 4x

[keys]

What's the Shusher for? I can't think of a single match where I'd want it, especially with 3 Grips.

Chalice, Counterbalance, and pretty much anything blue. Shusher is really good.

[Valtrix]

Why nobody plays Pithing needle in the board? i run the 4x

You'll see some people do. I think needle is one of the most meta-dependent cards, so I choose not to run it. I'm not sure I'd take it into a blind meta, but it's not a bad choice by any means.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've always ran 4 Needle in the board. It's amazing against so much shit. I usually find myself naming Wasteland, then Top, in that order. I hate land destruction as it is and alot of decks play Wasteland and try and get your red sources. And that is a lose, lose situation. Plus Needle stops Deed, Shackles, Belcher, Mishra's Factory, it's a versatile card.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I would play needles if I owned any... :(

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I would play needles if I owned any... :(

Awh. FML:frown:

[jazzykat]

Needle vs. Null Rod

Obviously needle gets Deed, Wasteland and Planes Walkers not to mention any other non-mana activated ability for only 1.

However, especially in the case of Planes Walkers you often lose your needle to an EE. Top, Shackles, vial, Grindstone, Belcher and artifact acceleration are all stopped by Null Rod to name a few.

Null Rod has been run at one point, but with the widespread acceptance of 4 Qusali Pridemages in the MD is there a reasonable amount of protection from artifacts such that the lower CC and pinpoint targeting of needle outweighs Null Rod's complete hosing of artifacts?

[Svenyboy]

Hello,

do you think the new Lands Feeding Grounds and Naya from Zendikar can played in Zoo?

[JeroenC]

What? You might want to catch up on recent Magic news. Those are planes, not lands. They're for use in a new version of casual multiplayer Magic. Called Planechase. You should've already heard about it.

[Svenyboy]

What? You might want to catch up on recent Magic news. Those are planes, not lands. They're for use in a new version of casual multiplayer Magic. Called Planechase. You should've already heard about it.

Ooooh, my mistake xD sry.

[Thrasher]

I've always ran 4 Needle in the board. It's amazing against so much shit. I usually find myself naming Wasteland, then Top, in that order. I hate land destruction as it is and alot of decks play Wasteland and try and get your red sources. And that is a lose, lose situation. Plus Needle stops Deed, Shackles, Belcher, Mishra's Factory, it's a versatile card.
so i am not the only one who plays needle SB.I got crushed in the last tourney by EE,Countertop,jitte and deed so i'll play the full set of needles to own these cards.I got my 4th needle by a kid,i saw he played it naming master of etherium :laugh: LOL

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I think for my build, that Needle would be better than NullRod. I already run 4 Pridemage, plus 3 to 4 Ancient Grudge in the SB. Plus i like my MD Jitte too. NullRod seems better in a random meta too. Shutting down random stuff.

And for the most part, i use Needle to stop Wasteland, my hate for that land is beyond any other magic card ever printed. Fuck LD.

EDIT: I saw a kid name Teferie with Needle. Pretty hilarious.

[jandax]

Hey folks, I’ve read this thread in its entirety and had to sign up to throw in my 2 cents.



I’m new to the format, with the standard and extended seasons gone, I mostly only play Limited even though there is a strong Legacy scene around. I figured it wouldn’t be as expensive as Standard in the long run, as it is far less dynamic, and as my extended deck was Zoo, I am converting to Legacy because of the rotation. From everything that I have read, I have compiled a decklist of what I considered to be the most valid points regarding the strongest cards for the optimal Zew build. A discussion would be swell, but since this is basically a “Best Of” decklist of the thread, a lot of points might already be mute. Here goes:

Creatures 23



4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Isamaru
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary (another semi-pet card. I prefer him at 2 over 2 throctars)
2 Watchwolf


Curve: 1 drops = 10, 2 drops = 10, 3 drops = 3

Spells 17



4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix (a 4 of to offset pain from Library)
2 Sylvan Library
2 Cursed Scroll (A pet card of mine since its printing. <3 . I think it Is better than Grim ‘Mancer because it is a lil more difficult to remove)
4 Path to Exile (My choice over Swords. I wanna stick to the game plan and do my 20 asap)


Curve: 1cc = 10, 2cc = 6

I figured I’d rather draw 2 1cc cards off of library than a 2cc/etc, thus the 1cc curve is the highest.

Land 21 (9 are fetchlands, thus food for KotR)


3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Plateau
1 Bloodstained Mire (in place of Canopy, thins out the deck and can be somewhat of a decoy)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain



Sideboard isn’t exactly made up. I am new to the format, so before an event I try to walk around and snoop out the competition before the decklists are submitted and make changes accordingly. Cards I like for the sideboard are as follows, but aren’t limited to:



Mr. Teeg (whom I prefer over Cannonist)

Needle

Relic of Progenitus (I value the cantrip more than the free Crypt)

Pyrostatic Pillar ( ^_^ )

Jitte

Choke

Vexing Shusher

Null Rod

*Greater Gargadon (I’m on the fence with this one. It is a port over from Ichorid’s sideboard. It is R to suspend, and against anything that causes board disruption, it is a huge clock. Sac lands to Big Red instead of letting them get Wasted/Stripped. Sac critters to fizzle STP/PtE. Sac your Jitte/Scroll to fizzle hate and/or speed the clock. And come late game, you get a big ol’ fatty. I would consider siding this in in replace of Isamaru/Watchwolf)

Also: No Grudge or Grip, Pridemage is that utility that can beat. Enough for me. Although I could be persuaded otherwise

Since I’ll be going into a blind meta coming next tournament, Im gonna take all of these and then make a last minute scribble on the decklist for the ‘board. It’ll probably be something like the following because I know of people who play countertop, goblins, and tendrils. I also will take my Ichorid build (of which I am a fan, so fun to play) and keep it in the holster for a last minute switch if I scout a real lack of combo/control.


Before any of you hate on the lack of burn; I added utility spells like Scroll (it’s still burn) and Library and a Jitte in 5 slots solely for the mid/late game. The rest of the deck is geared to start off turn one with meat on the table. Burn is either spot removal, or kept in hand for a finish. Plus, this is RGW Zoo, not goyfsligh as has been stated many times


The only real new thing in this list is the Gargadon. I haven’t been able to test it much, but I think it is worth a shot. If any of you are curious as to its potential, sleeve it up for a few games and post back.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@jandax: Your list looks ALOT like my old one, so I'll give it a thumbs up. I wouldn't run a 1of Jitte though, Maybe another Knight since you can reliably get the mana to cast him. Jitte is amazing, it's just too random i guess. I like your manabase, it's the exact same as mine. People will try and convince you to run Canopy, but don't listen, It's miserable with Ape and Nacatyl. Scroll will always be strong, and it is way harder to remove than Lavamancer. Plus, it scares them into bringing in Grip, and you can just board em out worse case scenario.

I would run a 2/2 split of Teeg and Cannonist. Teeg is good in other matchups, and Cannonist just shuts down combo, and in my opinion is good against Sui-Black, Eva Green variants. Prevents Dark Ritual shenanigans. I've been testing Pillar alot more lately bc it had potential, but I'm not really liking it. It's another combo hate card, and hoses Enchantress, but I'd rather run Needle or Null Rod, prolly Needle in your case since you run Jitte and Scroll. And i would also highly suggest Ancient Grudge, but that depends on your meta, so it's your call.

[jandax]

@jandax: Your list looks ALOT like my old one, so I'll give it a thumbs up. I wouldn't run a 1of Jitte though, Maybe another Knight since you can reliably get the mana to cast him. Jitte is amazing, it's just too random i guess. I like your manabase, it's the exact same as mine. People will try and convince you to run Canopy, but don't listen, It's miserable with Ape and Nacatyl. Scroll will always be strong, and it is way harder to remove than Lavamancer. Plus, it scares them into bringing in Grip, and you can just board em out worse case scenario.

I would run a 2/2 split of Teeg and Cannonist. Teeg is good in other matchups, and Cannonist just shuts down combo, and in my opinion is good against Sui-Black, Eva Green variants. Prevents Dark Ritual shenanigans. I've been testing Pillar alot more lately bc it had potential, but I'm not really liking it. It's another combo hate card, and hoses Enchantress, but I'd rather run Needle or Null Rod, prolly Needle in your case since you run Jitte and Scroll. And i would also highly suggest Ancient Grudge, but that depends on your meta, so it's your call.

Aye, it should look alot like your list. The manabase I basically copied. I too agree that canopy just doesn't cut it, it seems stale to me, and Sylvan Library is way better at cantrip functions. Plus, the Mire is a good target for sideboarding out and thins the deck when it stays in. Basically in my eyes, that mire is a utility land that works better than Canopy. You only loose one life, you keep your Apes/Kitties fat and happy, you can side it out in a pinch w/o an impact on the manabase....leaps and bounds. Leaps and bounds.

Pillar is another hate card that sticks to the decks main function of 20 DMG NAO! Pillar + Mr. Teeg/Cannonist = good results.. I'm shy to cut this one from contention. Yet I see how Grudges/Needles should have a spot.

My meta is popularized by Fish (fae/wizards/merfolk), Countertop, ANT, and perhaps the random agro archetype. I also play Ichorid for this reason. Hardly anyone plays it to my knowledge and its surprise factor is enough to win games in matchups that are unfavorable.

This is a good primer, LB, you know your deck

Edit: also what do you think about Greater Gargadon in the board? He's only worth it in the opening hand I think, but he shines in Ichorid to removal cards and is a huge hunk of meat that CIP at instant speed if you come across sweepers/lots of spot removal. Also he's imune to countertop. Seriously, all your op. seems to see is that 9/7 creature with a diminishing number of suspend counters. He focuses on it too much too often, and this can be exploited.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@jandax: Thanks for the kudos. Me and Pulp worked hard on it. Too bad he only plays combo now :tongue:

But I'm way too skeptical about Gargadon to be honest.. like you said he only seems good in your opening seven, and he doesn't really help the decks gameplan ya know?? He is fat as hell sure, but he takes time, and the deck doesn't like taking time. If Landstill or more sweepers keep popping up in your meta, i could see him MAYBE being run at best.

Everyone is going apeshit over Sylvan Library so i think I'll test it out some before i make snap judgments this time. I actually could see myself liking that card. As a two of makes me kinda uneasy, i know you only need to see one, but wouldn't three be the comfy number??

Also, if your meta is mostly Fish, run some Pyroclasm out of the board. It's amazing. Rapes Goblins more than you already do too.

I can't wait to see the replies on Canopy vs Mire. Haha

[jandax]

@jandax: Thanks for the kudos. Me and Pulp worked hard on it. Too bad he only plays combo now :tongue:

But I'm way too skeptical about Gargadon to be honest.. like you said he only seems good in your opening seven, and he doesn't really help the decks gameplan ya know?? He is fat as hell sure, but he takes time, and the deck doesn't like taking time. If Landstill or more sweepers keep popping up in your meta, i could see him MAYBE being run at best.

Everyone is going apeshit over Sylvan Library so i think I'll test it out some before i make snap judgments this time. I actually could see myself liking that card. As a two of makes me kinda uneasy, i know you only need to see one, but wouldn't three be the comfy number??

Also, if your meta is mostly Fish, run some Pyroclasm out of the board. It's amazing. Rapes Goblins more than you already do too.

I can't wait to see the replies on Canopy vs Mire. Haha

Yeah, I forgot about pyroclasm. Definitely.

As far as three of Sylvan, I am not sure. It is one of those cards you only want to see once, if at all. I think that loosing one creature for an extra copy doesn't help as much as it'd hurt.

As far as canopy vs. mire is concerned, I see the canopy as a neutered land type, it doesn't help your apes/kitties at all. it is a perpetual pain land where Mire stings you once, and it seems to me that its cantrip ability replaces its suckiness. No thanks, it isn't for me. I could understand running a few if you didn't have Sylvan in the deck, but since I do, the point is mute.

And as far as gargadon goes, you're probably right. He fits better in Ichorid than in Zoo, sometimes it is easy to loose focus. I'm trying to get into the habit of asking myself "Will this help me do my 20 dmg asap?" before cutting cards from teh main and board. This card definitely helps me do my 20, but not asap. In the end it buys time for the opponent to clean up, while providing you a utility outlet for removal of your own side of the board.

[MMogg]

As far as canopy vs. mire is concerned, I see the canopy as a neutered land type, it doesn't help your apes/kitties at all. it is a perpetual pain land where Mire stings you once, and it seems to me that its cantrip ability replaces its suckiness. No thanks, it isn't for me. I could understand running a few if you didn't have Sylvan in the deck, but since I do, the point is mute.

For a third Sylvan you could replace the lone Jitte. Your chance of drawing 1 Jitte is slim.

As for the Canopy, I think you're looking at it as a first turn drop. I think it's meant to be an extra G/W mana source if and when you need it, but more importantly, it is meant to be a way to "cycle" a land when you are in mid-game and needn't so much land. You can trade a Canopy for a threat, or at least mill your deck by one card, bringing you closer to the next threat.

I don't think Mire is going to cause confusion often. Running only one, how often will it be your first turn drop and how long will it be before you use it, fetch for a dual and play an Ape/Kittie? 30 Seconds? :smile: I think it'll be pretty easy for your opponent to see you're playing Zoo.

[jandax]

For a third Sylvan you could replace the lone Jitte. Your chance of drawing 1 Jitte is slim.

As for the Canopy, I think you're looking at it as a first turn drop. I think it's meant to be an extra G/W mana source if and when you need it, but more importantly, it is meant to be a way to "cycle" a land when you are in mid-game and needn't so much land. You can trade a Canopy for a threat, or at least mill your deck by one card, bringing you closer to the next threat.

I don't think Mire is going to cause confusion often. Running only one, how often will it be your first turn drop and how long will it be before you use it, fetch for a dual and play an Ape/Kittie? 30 Seconds? :smile: I think it'll be pretty easy for your opponent to see you're playing Zoo.

I didn't really mean for the Mire to be a psych out card, I mean even BR is on color for the deck. In the end I'll still leave it in there, simply out of preference. And consider the singleton Jitte from my aforementioned list to be replaced with a 3rd Knight as suggested by LB. Makes more sense, and it is still a good top deck.

[MMogg]

I didn't really mean for the Mire to be a psych out card, I mean even BR is on color for the deck. In the end I'll still leave it in there, simply out of preference. And consider the singleton Jitte from my aforementioned list to be replaced with a 3rd Knight as suggested by LB. Makes more sense, and it is still a good top deck.

But adding a third Knight just gives you another creature in an already creature heavy deck. Adding a Library may mean the difference between drawing one and not, in which case it would add tremendous advantage in keeping up momentum. A lot of people say you don't want to draw more than one, but that is assuming that there is nothing to disrupt it. Maybe test both builds and see. I was running two Scrolls and literally never drew them. Two ofs in Zoo can be difficult to draw. :cry:

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@MMogg: My problem with Canopy is, you don't need any extra GW sources. Savannah is the land i like to see the least. I'm thinking about cutting one for another Mire anyway. Lots of fetches for the Knight and helps get the basic R which is needed in some matchups.

I could only see Sylvan Library hurting you in multiples in your opening hand. Worst case you could scry it away with the first one, or have another when your opponent destroys the first. Letting one of those stick seems like a nightmare for the opponent.

I always saw my Scroll when i ran 2 of em. Seriously. Haha.

[rancOr_]

About Sylvan Library.. 2 is the correct number,Ive tested it out quite good.
U dont want to see 2 copies in a game since it will just be a dead card.
If you however dont draw library its not bad either since u dont need it to win.

Canopy is good but after alot of testing running 3canopys is not that good.
U have alot of hands with 2lands in ur opening hand,where a (2)nd fetch would be way better. The cycling is nice ofcourse,but if that makes ur mana base/kird apes/nacatl sucky at times,its definatly not worth it.
I run this as mana base:
4 windswepth heath
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
3 taiga
3 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
1 canopy
and find it to be the best. Remember more fetches is always better for lavamancer/library/thinning out deck. And I dont think stifle is an valid argument to run less fetch.
The single canopy is for when you have a knight into play,and want to make him bigger.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

About Sylvan Library.. 2 is the correct number,Ive tested it out quite good.
U dont want to see 2 copies in a game since it will just be a dead card.
If you however dont draw library its not bad either since u dont need it to win.

Canopy is good but after alot of testing running 3canopys is not that good.
U have alot of hands with 2lands in ur opening hand,where a (2)nd fetch would be way better. The cycling is nice ofcourse,but if that makes ur mana base/kird apes/nacatl sucky at times,its definatly not worth it.
I run this as mana base:
4 windswepth heath
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
3 taiga
3 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
1 canopy
and find it to be the best. Remember more fetches is always better for lavamancer/library/thinning out deck. And I dont think stifle is an valid argument to run less fetch.
The single canopy is for when you have a knight into play,and want to make him bigger.
I like that manabase. I ran Canopy as a 1of when i first started running Pulp's original list. It just got to the point where i found myself being fucked over with like a fetch and a Canopy opening hand, and it happened too many times.

Yeah, Stifle is being run less and less these days. Which i don't mind at all. Less Naughts and LD packages.

Well i mean the extra fetch would pump the Knight anyway ya know?

[jandax]

Yeah, Stifle is being run less and less these days. Which i don't mind at all. Less Naughts and LD packages.

Well i mean the extra fetch would pump the Knight anyway ya know?
^^This is important because the knight needs to be as fat as possible before you go and spend all three of your mana on him.

[GMTemplar]

I plan to run a more burn oriented build with 21 lands - 17 crits - 22 spells. I'm wondering why people are moving away from Magma Jet though I have always found it excellent and it's only getting better with the addition of Sylvan Library? In many builds it is even being cut before Lightning Helix.

[rancOr_]

Magma Jet isnt a bad card at all,but why many builds play lightning helix over jet is just because its 3dmge instead of 2. Thats a big difference i.e playing against merfolk taking out lords, or LH + grim lavamancer tap.

[B is for Big Job]

Well, more fetches makes up for it with sylvan. If top 3 cards suck (i know thats hard to do, but tripple lands are ftl) fetch and then be down 2 lands and next turn see the nuts. Compared to jet, its a permanent source of advantage that nets you more whereas jet is just a 1 time thing does. Jet is good but sylvan just does a better job. Also helps pump goyf too if you lose one :D

Ever since ive been playing zoo ive had 2 library in my list. It has won me games when ive been in topdeck mode and needed a creature, burn spell or some removal. I remember one game thanks to having a few fetches and bad shuffling I managed to get 4 goyfs in play in about 6 turns. I won the match heh. Also if you run helix it just makes you want to draw more cards, we are the aggro deck here arent we :D

[jandax]

we are the aggro deck here arent we :D

/thread

[Valtrix]

About Sylvan Library.. 2 is the correct number,Ive tested it out quite good.
U dont want to see 2 copies in a game since it will just be a dead card.
If you however dont draw library its not bad either since u dont need it to win.


The single canopy is for when you have a knight into play,and want to make him bigger.

I second both of these. Library is great, but at the same time I don't think we can afford to draw dead cards. I find that playing 3 copies of cards that I don't want multiples of screws me over too much.

Something that people also forget about library is that the number one removal in this format is swords to plowshares. You know what library says about that? Well, it means that essentially any creature removed just cantrips, which can be horrible for your opponent to deal with.

Also one canopy is good, but I think canopy should only be run as your 21st land only if you're playing knight to both have the draw option, to also help fight LD, and consistently actually get to 3 mana.

I think gargadon has already been talked about enough, but I don't think he's worth running either. He's big, but we don't have a way to abuse his ability, and he's not actually aggressive.

@Jandax:I really think you should run at least 3 krosan grip in the board. Sure, you have pridemage, but you really want the extra help vs. countertop. In addition, I love having 7+ forms of artifact/enchantment hate in the board, because it makes matchups where it's relevant a joke.

I know a lot of people like magma jet too, but really I can't bring myself to pay 2 mana for 2 damage, even if I get to scry 2.

[keys]

Is 21 now the generally accepted land count?

I always thought it should be 20 if you're running 0-1 Canopy, and 21 if you're running 2-3 canopy.

[hungryLIKEALION]

It's getting cut before Lightning Helix because Lightning Helix is a far better spell. Magma Jet is a vastly overcosted burn spell with a terrible library manipulation effect attached. If you want manipulation, sylvan is vastly superior, and both are not necessary.

As a large supporter of canopy in zoo, I feel the need to defend it. The thing about canopy is that it lets you run 21 or 22 lands without fearing mana flood. You're not playing canopy instead of an R producing land; You're playing instead of a B-list spell, so that you have better mana consistency. If you open a hand with a fetch and a canopy, it would have been 1 fetch as your only land if not for the canopy (And personally, I do not mind 1 fetch 1 canopy hands. They're usually pretty easy keeps.) I would NEVER run 21 lands in zoo without some of them being canopies, because you'll lose too many games to mana flood.

I've been playing with 3 canopy for a while now and like them. My list does need an update, however. I need to fit Library in there somewhere, haven't decided where yet.

[DragoFireheart]

Why is Magma Jet even being discussed? Yes, I can understand an endless argument about Swords vs Path, but Magma Jet? The spell is so god awful in the meta when you consider that it won't kill anything worthwhile, it's damage to mana spent is horrific and is ok top deck... but for this deck, this is a very bad top deck. With only so few slots for beaters and burn, we want the best of the best, and the scry effect on a over-costed shock isn't something this deck wants or needs.

[Valtrix]

Why is Magma Jet even being discussed? Yes, I can understand an endless argument about Swords vs Path, but Magma Jet? The spell is so god awful in the meta when you consider that it won't kill anything worthwhile, it's damage to mana spent is horrific and is ok top deck... but for this deck, this is a very bad top deck. With only so few slots for beaters and burn, we want the best of the best, and the scry effect on a over-costed shock isn't something this deck wants or needs.

+1

[keys]

As a large supporter of canopy in zoo, I feel the need to defend it. The thing about canopy is that it lets you run 21 or 22 lands without fearing mana flood. You're not playing canopy instead of an R producing land; You're playing instead of a B-list spell, so that you have better mana consistency. If you open a hand with a fetch and a canopy, it would have been 1 fetch as your only land if not for the canopy (And personally, I do not mind 1 fetch 1 canopy hands. They're usually pretty easy keeps.) I would NEVER run 21 lands in zoo without some of them being canopies, because you'll lose too many games to mana flood.

I've been playing with 3 canopy for a while now and like them. My list does need an update, however. I need to fit Library in there somewhere, haven't decided where yet.

The problem I have with Canopy is that it slows down the deck. It's a lot more difficult to Price of Progress/Fireblast for the win on turn four when you only have 1 mountain. That tends to happen more than I'd like when I play with it. I like playing with only 3 non-red sources:

4 Heath
4 Foothills
2 Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 basics

The extra fetches bring lavamancer online faster as well.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've always ran 21 lands, and without Canopy, and with Library, it doesn't seem too bad either. I cut down a land for a Chain Lightning, and found myself being mana fucked from Sinkhole/Waste, and that hardly ever happens with the extra land, so i went back up to 21.

What really ticked me off was that my opponent's were Waste-ing my white sources. My Savannahs. And my hand was full of white spells. I guess the people in my meta actually either A: Check my decks out on here, or B: Are noobs and decided to Waste my white not red source. It pissed me off bad.

And i love maximizing fetchlands. I don't run Lavamancer or Fireblast and i still run 9, and i might move it up to 10.

[hungryLIKEALION]

The problem I have with Canopy is that it slows down the deck. It's a lot more difficult to Price of Progress/Fireblast for the win on turn four when you only have 1 mountain. That tends to happen more than I'd like when I play with it. I like playing with only 3 non-red sources:

4 Heath
4 Foothills
2 Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 basics

The extra fetches bring lavamancer online faster as well.

I don't run fireblast, but I never have trouble fueling lavamancer, and I think it's absurd to say canopy slows the deck down. If you're aiming for consisten turn 4 PoP/Fireblast kills, you're playing goyfsligh, not zoo. Now, Library may well be good enough to make 21 lands with no canopies playable. I haven't tested it. I just picked up my libraries today on my way home from work, so I'll start testing it now. However, I feel that if you're already running KoTR, you should have at least one canopy in the deck.

All I'm really saying is that you shouldn't be so fast to write off canopy completely.

[MMogg]

I just have to say how horribly skewed MWS seems to be with playtesting. Living in China, it's the only way I can test decks and it seems to really give horribly inaccurate draws. I'm running 3 Sylvan Library and after about 10 matches haven't drawn into one!

[paK0]

I've got a general question on the deck:

Is it viable to run Lavamancer in a creature heavy list? (20+)

[DrJones]

I just have to say how horribly skewed MWS seems to be with playtesting. Living in China, it's the only way I can test decks and it seems to really give horribly inaccurate draws. I'm running 3 Sylvan Library and after about 10 matches haven't drawn into one!You just discovered how truly awful MWS is. :wink:

Next step is to discover that if you tune your deck to work masterfully on MWS, you will be horribly skewed in real life.

[MMogg]

You just discovered how truly awful MWS is. :wink:

Next step is to discover that if you tune your deck to work masterfully on MWS, you will be horribly skewed in real life.

Maybe I should just build an EDH deck and stick to that. Nothing more inconsistent and random than highlander/singleton! :laugh:

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've got a general question on the deck:

Is it viable to run Lavamancer in a creature heavy list? (20+)

I say yes. I run I think 23 creatures right now and don't have much trouble fueling him. As long as you run 9 or more fetch lands, it shouldn't be a problem.

[paK0]

I say yes. I run I think 23 creatures right now and don't have much trouble fueling him. As long as you run 9 or more fetch lands, it shouldn't be a problem.

Do you run some Knights with em?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Yes. He's also pretty good at fueling lavamancer if you need him to, and if not, it's pretty easy to avoid shrinking him.

[paK0]

KK, i'll guess i try em both out then =), ty.

[Misobizo]

Hi there,

I also happen to run a zoo deck, with a card choice quite in line with what was discussed earlier on the thread.

I find library is great as x2. Drawing aggressively against control is great and synergy with helix helps.

The only card I run not mentioned yet is sylvan protector. I know everybody thinks he sucks but I like him. He has kind of the same role as mother of runes (refering to earlier discussion) exept I find him a bit superior. As it was pointed out, most deck run mostly spot removal to deal with your threats and dodging removal goes all the way with your strategy of inflicting quick combat damage. Protector doesn't have summon sickness, meaning he is more likely to survive the turn he arrives. He can also grant multiple protection the same turn and protect T2 teeg/canonist against combo or shusher against control . Obvious drawback is to sac land. I don't deny there is always a risk of hurting your manabase but in the long run, you need very few lands and it's just great to be able to trade the extra for protection. There is also a has nice synergy with knight, especially in alpha strike mode.

What do you guys think?

[jazzykat]

I tested the deck last night on MWS a little bit. Only definite observation is too much land is better than too little. I can't tell you how many times my opponent tried to screw my land over and I would have surely lost had I not had a back up. The canopies were generally golden (I'm playing 2 right now).

[MMogg]

Hi there,

I also happen to run a zoo deck, with a card choice quite in line with what was discussed earlier on the thread.

I find library is great as x2. Drawing aggressively against control is great and synergy with helix helps.

The only card I run not mentioned yet is sylvan protector. I know everybody thinks he sucks but I like him. He has kind of the same role as mother of runes (refering to earlier discussion) exept I find him a bit superior. As it was pointed out, most deck run mostly spot removal to deal with your threats and dodging removal goes all the way with your strategy of inflicting quick combat damage. Protector doesn't have summon sickness, meaning he is more likely to survive the turn he arrives. He can also grant multiple protection the same turn and protect T2 teeg/canonist against combo or shusher against control . Obvious drawback is to sac land. I don't deny there is always a risk of hurting your manabase but in the long run, you need very few lands and it's just great to be able to trade the extra for protection. There is also a has nice synergy with knight, especially in alpha strike mode.

What do you guys think?

First of all, I think you mean Sylvan Safekeeper (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35062), right? And it isn't that he's unaffected by summoning sickness inasmuch as you can use his ability regardless of his summoning sickness because it's not a tap ability. Ok, now that the nitty gritty rules lawyer shiznit is out of the way, I have to be a bit skeptical of this guy (even though I haven't playtested him).

He's a pretty weak sauce first turn drop. :confused: Usually by turn two, I can be attacking with a 2/3 Kird Ape or a 3/3 cat. Why would I want a 1/1? Protect my creatures? What creatures? Himself? If I cast him first turn, on second turn, let's say I cast a teeny tiny goyf. You want me to sacrifice a land to save his ass? That would set me back another turn's land drop in a deck that is already quite mana shy. :confused:

From what you have already said, I'm still not entirely convinced. What comes out for him anyway? Removal?

[jandax]

First of all, I think you mean Sylvan Safekeeper (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35062), right? And it isn't that he's unaffected by summoning sickness inasmuch as you can use his ability regardless of his summoning sickness because it's not a tap ability. Ok, now that the nitty gritty rules lawyer shiznit is out of the way, I have to be a bit skeptical of this guy (even though I haven't playtested him).

He's a pretty weak sauce first turn drop. :confused: Usually by turn two, I can be attacking with a 2/3 Kird Ape or a 3/3 cat. Why would I want a 1/1? Protect my creatures? What creatures? Himself? If I cast him first turn, on second turn, let's say I cast a teeny tiny goyf. You want me to sacrifice a land to save his ass? That would set me back another turn's land drop in a deck that is already quite mana shy. :confused:

From what you have already said, I'm still not entirely convinced. What comes out for him anyway? Removal?

I think you summed it up wtih "weak sauce". Nothing against the original comment, but to take away optimal slots from teh deck to protect against removal that will get through anyways is not in lines of the deck's purpose. Threats need to be played through instead of around, Zoo is the agro deck. Yet in the mirror or similar agro deck I can see usefulness.

[Misobizo]

What comes out for him anyway? Removal?

I should have talked about this to begin with.I personaly play safekeeper in the lavamancer slot. Again, the logic is that you don't need that much to clear the way for your creatures: you already play tons of removal and your creature are supposed to be bigger. However, none of your creature has haste, meaning any removal from the opponent induce tempo loss for you. Gameplan is quick kill, so in my opinion, you'd rather try to have your nacalt dropped T1 swing as much as possible rather than drop on threat after another to see it dealt with the next turn. Not to mention very nasty things such as thread of disloyalty, shackles or submerge that really wreck you.


He's a pretty weak sauce first turn drop. Usually by turn two, I can be attacking with a 2/3 Kird Ape or a 3/3 cat.

So is lavamancer, who is also not that hot in very early game when your graveyard is empty and you don't have much mana to spare to activate him.

[rancOr_]

Tbh Sylvan Safekeeper is quite bad.
Instead of playing weak bodies with an ability like that its WAY better to just drop a nacatl or kird ape. This deck doesnt care(too)much about spot removal. ie:-if ur kird ape/nacatl attacks a turn or two then gets plowed its not a bad trade. SS is just loss of tempo. Not to mention against certain MU's where u want dmge in asap(like combo,..)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just wouldn't wanna give up land. And he is a 1/1. I know Lavamancer is too, but he deals alot more damage.

And once again, land destruction is bad for Zoo.

Also, 1000th post bitches :laugh:

[Thoughtseizer]

How come none of the deck lists from people playing Zoo on this thread include land grant?

[sorrel]

How come none of the deck lists from people playing Zoo on this thread include land grant?
Because the card is bad, and is worse than a land.

It is a spell, and your opponent gets to see you hand before it resolves (if you play it for free, which is the only time it might be good), so it sucks as your only land against anything with counters.

[MMogg]

Because the card is bad, and is worse than a land.

It is a spell, and your opponent gets to see you hand before it resolves (if you play it for free, which is the only time it might be good), so it sucks as your only land against anything with counters.

I have to agree. In some decks, like ye olde deck 9-land stompy, there wasn't any intrinsic disadvantage from revealing your hand, whereas in Zoo there are a number of removal spells you may not want to reveal (or, conversely, you may reveal you have no removal spells). In Zoo, the disadvantages out weight the advantages.

Fetch lands already fill the function of stabilizing your mana base and at the same time thinning your deck of unwanted addition land draws.

[Thoughtseizer]

I have to agree. In some decks, like ye olde deck 9-land stompy

Don't you mean 10 land stompy? In any event, the older version of zoo back 4 years ago ran them and they were quite good. I agree with counters although they were always around even back when grants were good.

Moreover, if you are playing this deck with 3-4 rancors, wouldn't river boa be a very efficient creature to consider? I can't see any of the current staple zoo creatures (goyf aside) that would be more lethal and efficient rancored.

[MMogg]

Don't you mean 10 land stompy? In any event, the older version of zoo back 4 years ago ran them and they were quite good. I agree with counters although they were always around even back when grants were good.

Moreover, if you are playing this deck with 3-4 rancors, wouldn't river boa be a very efficient creature to consider? I can't see any of the current staple zoo creatures (goyf aside) that would be more lethal and efficient rancored.

Actually I always ran 9 lands, not ten. :smile:

The problem with Boa is that at two mana he is in the same slot as Goyf. Would you take out Goyfs for Boas?

For Rancor, what do you propose removing from the maindeck for them? Creatures or removal? And, with Swords/Path to Exile being the removal of choice for most decks, when you're rancoring something, if they remove the creature in response, you lose your creature and the rancor: 2 for 1 in their favour. Compare with Jitte, which doesn't let you lose the card and is also very effective, despite being more expensive to cast.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Noone runs Rancor in the deck anymore, or River Boa.

It was discussed when the thread was created, so read the thread and you'll get full feedback on those two bad cards.

And Land Grant, is just fucking terrible. If you run 9 or even 10 lands, you'll lose in today's format. And goodluck casting anything or meeting the land conditions for Ape and Nacatyl too.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Zoo: T1 Landgrant?
Blue: FoW?
Zoo: :(

Land grant is bad.

[Thoughtseizer]

Noone runs Rancor in the deck anymore, or River Boa.

It was discussed when the thread was created, so read the thread and you'll get full feedback on those two bad cards.

So since when did rancor become a bad card? I take it you are a new casual player to magic no doubt? You want to know what a bad magic card is, Loxodon! see the following: http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-the-meaning-of-midrange-and-why-its-terrible/

Firstly, the discussion pertaining to rancor discussed by two or three amateur players in the archives of this form is dismissed as having no logic or merit. Secondly, the only two Zoo deck lists to even have moderate success at last years gen con and worlds legacy format both sported rancors. Also, you don't have to play four boas, you would play two which means you don't have to cut goyf. Moreover, if you do run rancor, whether that be in the quantity of 2 or 4, boa is just plain better then wolf for that purpose.

[troopatroop]

So since when did rancor become a bad card? I take it you are a new casual player to magic no doubt? You want to know what a bad magic card is, Loxodon! see the following: http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-the-meaning-of-midrange-and-why-its-terrible/

Firstly, the discussion pertaining to rancor discussed by two or three amateur players in the archives of this form is dismissed as having no logic or merit. Secondly, the only two Zoo deck lists to even have moderate success at last years gen con and worlds legacy format both sported rancors. Also, you don't have to play four boas, you would play two which means you don't have to cut goyf. Moreover, if you do run rancor, whether that be in the quantity of 2 or 4, boa is just plain better then wolf for that purpose.

LAST YEARS Gen con. Nobody plays Watchwolf, River Boa, or Rancor in this deck because they're not better than anything. Why don't you read the thread and get off your high horse for god's sake. Rancor opens you up to a 2 for 1 every time you cast it. How isn't another burn spell/creature just better? You should catch up with modern legacy.

[Shriekmaw]

LAST YEARS Gen con. Nobody plays Watchwolf, River Boa, or Rancor in this deck because they're not better than anything. Why don't you read the thread and get off your high horse for god's sake. Rancor opens you up to a 2 for 1 every time you cast it. How isn't another burn spell/creature just better? You should catch up with modern legacy.


You need to calm down and discuss ideas instead of attacking peope, especially from someone that doesn't play Legacy anymore. Last year there was no merfolk running around so the metagame was a bit different, which is why River Boa is pretty good.

I remember a deck that made top 8 in the prelims this year that replaced tarmogoyf with river boa because it was just that much better in the current metagame. There are not a lot of decks that can block river boa these days since most of the decks run some sort of islands.

Legacy is crazy right now, in a good way though. I heard you need to play blue in order to win. :)