[Deck] Zoo

[Thoughtseizer]

Well in fairness Nick, I don't play this deck in legacy anymore but I use to when it could actually consistently win. I play dragon stompy, counter sliver and eva green mostly right now. However, this deck has always (in the past) gone well with my play style and therefore I am attracted to it.

Well Troop, considering this years Worlds hasn't happened yet and the metagame is anticipated on being similar to last years legacy format, which consisted of a whole bunch of threshold, top, storm and goblins being the most played. I fail to see how last years top Zoo decks that all sported river boas will be any different this year? Other then the fact there will probably be less Zoo this year at worlds because it has such a bad match against, tempo g/u/r threshold, dragon stompy, main deck belcher and top. With the top deck in the format and by far most the most popular deck playing blue (which obviously means islands) boa is tech. Also, with boa's regeneration ability against slogger, keg, deed and explosives, how is river boa truly a bad creature Troop?

I concur with you Nick and you made some very good and factual points.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Funny that you would list multiple of this deck's best matchups when talking about matchups this deck can't win? CB Top's popularity is part of why zoo is good; It's a matchup I'm over 25-5 with in tournaments. Tempo Thresh is also rather easy. Dragon Stompy is not as good a matchup, but is beatable. And did you actually just bring up goblin charbelcher? This is 2009. Catch up.

River boa is a good card, but it is not as good as Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage, and you're certainly not going to cut either of those. However, Rancor is not viable anymore. Swords to Plowshares has become huge lately, which fizzles it, and you're far better off playing another threat instead.

I find it extremely hilarious that you claim zoo can't consistently win (Which is ironic since it's a DTB), and then go on to mention that you play Dragon Stompy... Now don't get me wrong, I love dragon stompy. It's actually my favorite deck in the format.

But please. You wanna talk about a deck that can't consistently win?


You need to calm down and discuss ideas instead of attacking peope, especially from someone that doesn't play Legacy anymore.People would probably respond to Thoughtseizer's posts in a more civil manner if he didn't open every post by calling whoever disagrees with him 'an amateur' or 'new to magic'. Also not citing gencon and worlds as if they were gospel when there's a whole fuckton of other legacy tournaments held all the time would be nice too.

[MMogg]

People would probably respond to Thoughtseizer's posts in a more civil manner if he didn't open every post by calling whoever disagrees with him 'an amateur' or 'new to magic'. Also not citing gencon and worlds as if they were gospel when there's a whole fuckton of other legacy tournaments held all the time would be nice too.

:laugh: Indeed. Claiming to be the master of facts and then telling Loxodon that his username is a mediocre card (which is 100% irrelevant to the debate) just undercuts one's credentials significantly.

And the bashing casual players is ridiculous as well. Casual is not synonymous with moronic. I remember Jon Finkel (you know, the scrubby casual player) when asked what the secret to his success was said to always collect many opinions from everyone and never think you're too good to listen to others.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Awh my flame post got deleted. Anywho, i'll try and word this nicer.

If you wanna make suggestions, try another nicer way, or something.

Also, your screen name is Thoughtseizer. You can't dis Loxodon Baileyarch at all when you just add a "r" to the end of Thoughtseize. Come on.

And the fact that you think I'm some casual player makes me laugh. I've top 8ed more times with Zoo than you've played in Magic tournaments. My track record for Limited and Constructed are very good as well. But I'm not gonna try and convince you otherwise by throwing up random statistics.

River Boa has been discussed, mostly as a joke when i suggested it several months ago. I only recall it being good with a Jitte, and blocking Goblins all day, which is already a good matchup. Land Grant is another bad card for Zoo, because you need land, you don't need to hope your Land Grant resolves in order to even be in the game. Play lands. And as for Rancor, everyone else has already made my point for me.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Wow, this is the first time I have looked at this thread in months and I will tell you, I am glad I did!!! Thoughtseizer made me LOL!!!! He talked about playing Zoo when it could consistently win then mentions he plays Dragon Stompy .... I am putting him on my ignore list.

Glad to see the discussion is going somewhere. No idea where, seems like a god damn circle but at least its headed somewhere! You would think that with 50+ pages of Zoo someone might take the time to glance back at a few of them or, god forbid, read the primer written by two people who extensively tested and played the deck in tournaments and put up results with it. But that would be asking to much. Carry on with discussing how Rancor belongs in the deck and how playing less creatures and more burn isn't like playing goyf sligh :)

[troopatroop]

This is like the twilight zone for real lol. Some random guy suggests River Boa and Land Grant, I say what everyone else is thinking, and Nick pops in to talk shit on a thread he's never posted in! I love it.

BTW Thoughtseizer, I fucking LOVE River Boa, and played it all the time back in the day. That said, I don't think it competes with Tarmogoyf or Qasali in the two drop department. I also think the rest of the creatures are integral to the deck, and couldn't be dropped for Boa.

[Thoughtseizer]

Dragon Stompy is not as good a matchup, but is beatable.

Are you kidding me? What is a worse match up for this deck then dragon stompy? Lets see, trinisphere, chalice, blood moons, magus and first turn sloggers; with kegs and pyrokinesis in the board. Terrible match up to say the least!


River boa is a good card, but it is not as good as Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage, and you're certainly not going to cut either of those. However, Rancor is not viable anymore. Swords to Plowshares has become huge lately, which fizzles it, and you're far better off playing another threat instead.

Swords has always been around and has always been huge and heavily played; ever since it was printed in beta and whenever it was legal in any given format. Even when rancor was a must 4 of in every Zoo deck, STP lingered about. You just have to play smarter.

It is trite to say that no creature is as good as goyf! Agreed! That doesn't mean you cut other solid creatures. Your deck is 60 cards and there is room for boa, especially in the right meta. With so much explosives, kegs, deeds, goblins and blue based decks around, it is a solid metagame choice.


Also not citing gencon and worlds as if they were gospel when there's a whole fuckton of other legacy tournaments held all the time would be nice too.

What? Local tourney's that draws 8-12 players should be cited? With all due respect, please! Worlds is the bench mark and the leading authority for what is viable and what is not. The two biggest and most prestige legacy events of the year with all the pro minds and tech on display, that is the measuring stick on what has been tried, tested and true in the most competitive legacy metagame and tourney's of the year. That is why it is worth citing; especially when those decks and players support your card selection in any given deck.

Obviously my decisions are quite reasonable when pro's and competitive zoo decks are concurring and playing the same cards I am submitting for consideration. I missed the previous argument on the issue at bar and hence I disagree with it and I am trying to rationally explain why. When my integrity and decisions gets attacked in a non-constructive manner by random scrubs arbitrarily calling cards bad with no basis is not right. Hence I justify and actually back up my card decisions with pro players and decks that have had proven success in a competitive metagame. If that is not proof that a certain card can be good in a deck then I don't know what is.


You would think that with 50+ pages of Zoo someone might take the time to glance back at a few of them or, god forbid, read the primer written by two people who extensively tested and played the deck in tournaments and put up results with it. But that would be asking to much. Carry on with discussing how Rancor belongs in the deck and how playing less creatures and more burn isn't like playing goyf sligh :)

I read what you had to say in your "primer" and although I agreed with much of it, I think you were incorrect in other aspects. Obviously you didn't test and play it enough? Obviously the question that comes to mind is at what level of tournaments did you play your deck at and were the alleged results obtained against competitive opposition; I say that with respect. In any event, although your build is very good, I prefer some of the pro lists that have river boa included in them. I myself have tested him in the present blue based metagame and I concur with them in that particular regard. You really shouldn't bash someone just because they are open to giving rancor a whirl again.


Also, your screen name is Thoughtseizer. You can't dis Loxodon Baileyarch at all when you just add a "r" to the end of Thoughtseize. Come on.

Lol! I am just joking with yeah! Just trying to lighten things up on what is becoming a very tense thread. But you have to admit, at least thoughtseize is a good playable card unlike Loxodon? Did you have a chance to read Scott-Vargus article on Loxodon?


\He talked about playing Zoo when it could consistently win then mentions he plays Dragon Stompy .... I am putting him on my ignore list.\:)

ps. Not to sound arrogant or cocky but since you did, I find my version of dragon stompy manifestly consistent and my record and D.C.I. vintage rating would ostensibly reflect same.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm not saying to cite tournaments with 8-12 people, I'm saying cite the power/duel for duals/high profile legacy tournaments held all over the world where the legacy experts play their format.

And the fact that you walk into this thread and call the people who have been posting in it for ages "random scrubs" is insulting, and is the reason no one is going to try to talk to you about anything you say.

You know why I'm saying River Boa is not worth playing? Because I've tried it. It's not as good as Goyf or Pridemage, and the deck does not need any more two drops. Before Pridemage came out, I was playing terrible cards like quirion dryad and watchwolf as my other two drops. Then Boa would have been a decent choice in a blue heavy meta. But now, Pridemage has thoroughly supplanted it.

Edit//And regarding dragon stompy;
If you lose the roll and they open on blood moon, it's very likely you lose. If they open on trinisphere, you can win as long as they don't immediately drop an arc slogger. If they open on chalice @ 1, you can dig to a pridemage and win. If you win the roll, you will most likely win the match. Post Sideboarding, you just fetch your basic forest and side in k-grips and it becomes very easy to beat all their disruption. On top of this, Dragonstompy loses about 1/6th of all games to its own draws. Magus is a joke, we run plenty of burn to kill it. First turn slogger? Meet Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares. The matchup ends up being about 50/50.

[FoulQ]

Ok thoughtseizer, listen up. Everyone is new at some point so I'll give you a break, but you have to get off your high horse.

I've played dragon stompy vs. burn-based decks PLENTY and the matchup isn't that far from even. Zoo is only a little worse...on the plus side zoo is more consistent than burn however, and dragon stompy can always shit on itself. Ancient Tomb, Qasali Pridemage, artifact hate out of SB, the all important die roll, dragon stompy shitting on itself. And magus is not a problem, come on.

Yes, "play smarter," realize that you are telling this to people who have been playing this deck for a long time. I've been secretly reading this thread since its inception and they know what they are talking about. They might not always be entirely right, but you are entirely wrong about rancor.

With so many powder kegs around? Need more help with goblins and blue-based decks? I think you should be worrying more about the bad matchups than these matchups.

Maybe you should learn about a popular website called www.deckcheck.net. Where there are many real tested decks, such as normal zoo lists.

Here is a news flash: PRO PLAYERS DO NOT REALLY PLAY LEGACY. There are a few, but they are not the innovators of legacy. The innovation is happening RIGHT HERE. We don't care about pro decklists here, we care about decklists that our successful and work. This is not some silly format like standard.

And honestly, telling us rancor and land grant are great in zoo makes YOU seem like the random scrub.

[Peter_Rotten]

Attack the argument, not the poster.

This thread needs a serious cool down.



LOCKED until another mod wants to open it up tomorrow.
http://www.hobbyetc.com/jpeg/T/TAM87004.jpg

[Peter_Rotten]

Hopefully we can all play nicely now.

[mackaber]

As a long time Zoo player (like reaaaally long time) I recently picked up this list and have dabbling a bit with it. From all my years of playing red based aggro decs I've really come to the conclusion that redundancy in all aspects is your key to victory most of the times. While the dec has been running well I really can't come to grips with two cards that seem to gather a lot of support here and I was hoping peeps could enlighten me on their necesity the one is

a) Knight of the Reliquary or the 3 drop in genral

So yeah he does all these tricky things and is a fat body that can smash past Tarmogoyfs. But I'm really wondering if such a thing is needed since him costing 3 mana and beeing somewaht conditional (meaning he sometimes needs time to growa nd you sometimes don't draw 3 lands). Shouldn't your strategy once the board is stalled with goyfs be to just point all burn at the opponents face and alpha strike once or twice?

b) Sylvan Library
While I can somehow symbathise with the idea of running 3 drops I really can't get my head behind this one. OK obviously it's great against control, not always better than another dude or burnspell but the fact that it can selctively draw you up to 4 extra cards makes it really sweet. But in no other matchup I have played until now have I drawn it and been happy that it's not another dude or burnspell. In any race situation it's horrendous, against Combo it's a timewalk for the opponent and in attrition war against another beatdown dec using it to draw extra cards becomes a liability and I seriously doubt any of you guys ever considered running top in a dec like this.

So in essence my critique of this two cards comes down t the question. Do you really want to attempt to commit yourself to a lategame you have little chance of winning if your standard Plan B (Burn to Face) gives you an almost equal chance at victory while giving your dec more redundancy.

I have a similar qualf with Horizon Canopy since it produces the wrong colors of mana and thus reduces redundancy and increases the likelihood of mulligan. If we take Hatfields list as the benchmark, the fact that the dec runs only 15 red sources which is really slim for a dec running mainly red spells might even ofset the extra cards u can draw of cannopy. If MWS isn't lying the probability of drawing no red mana source in your starting seven is 12% and most of those hands should then be mulled subsequentally. If on the other hand you run 17 red sources (say by removing canopys for 2 bloodstained mires and adding a another burnspell) your likelihood of drawing no red mana drops to 8%. Which results in a 1/3 less mulligans due to lack of red.

Just some food for thought there. looking forward to peoples responses.

[beastman]

Sylvan library only costs 2. Also, it's ability to filter your draws is priceless.

As for river boa. I tried him out for a little while when merfolk started getting big, but the fact is, he is just too small to have enough impact on the game. A 2/1 for 2 doesn't cut it in this format anymore.

[Fling]

I've been skimming this thread and I'm getting a bit confused. Could someone point me in the direction of a good, generic, breakdown of what matches we are favored in? I don't want to cause a flame war or anything, I'm just building the deck and would like to be able to predict whether I should be playing this or 'folk in my current meta. I'll be playing a fairly generic version of the deck, running RGw. Thanks!

[beastman]

What does your metagame look like?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Fling: Read the primer man, there is a detailed matchup analysis there.

I'm getting kinda bored with my Zoo list, and i kinda wanna switch it up a little. So this is what I'm going to test:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
2 Jitte
4 PTE
2 Sylvan Library [I've agreed that's it's good and worth spots]

4 Goyf
4 Nacatyl
4 Ape
4 Pridemage
2 Thoctar
2 Isamaru/Figure of Destiny

Since i cut Watchwolf, I'm not sure if i want to run FoD for more pure beef or not. I guess that's what testing is for. I added my 4th PTE because i've been running into alot more fat shit lately. Namely more Tombstalker, Goyf, and that 6/6 Pestilence Wumpus XD.

The list seems good. Though i might cut back down to 2 Chain Lightning for another creature. Bc 21-22 seems like the right number. Idk.

Constructive thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Baileyarch: Is there a reason you're cutting Lavamancer? My experience is that it's by far the best 1-drop in the deck, killing Goyfs (or augmenting your burn-spells enough to kill them), going to the head past blockers & wrecks any small creature-decks if it sticks.

I'd definitely consider it in the Isamaru/FoD slot and indeed, see it as the obvious correct choice. It was the biggest loss the last rotation gave Zoo in Extended. Really, the deck plays out more like Sligh than Burn in that, it plays burn more often to kill blockers than to shoot the face (although after few swings, burn of course finishes the job) and Lavamancer truly gets value out in match-ups against non-combo decks - that is to say, the majority.

[Valtrix]

I have a similar qualf with Horizon Canopy since it produces the wrong colors of mana and thus reduces redundancy and increases the likelihood of mulligan.

This has been something that I've wanted to bring up for a long time. I don't think that people are quite realizing how much the basis of this deck has actually changed. It has moved very far away from being mainly red. Let me use Loxodon's latest list as a simple example:

Green Cards: 14 (+4)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sylvan Library
(4 Kird Ape)

White Cards: 14 (+4)
4 Path To exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Isamaru/Figure
(4 Wild Nacatl)

Red Cards: 16 (+4)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Kird Ape
(4 Wild Nacatl)

//Thoctar Excluded, since he's all colors.

Now, if we look at this color breakdown, we have an almost even split between the number of mana symbols we need. Each color also has the same "creature bonus" need from nacatl/kird apes, so that's probably not so relevant then. Some lists are a little more red heavy if they have more burn/run lavamancer, but still the balance is fairly close. We do not always need so much red. I also really like the inclusion of path for this reason, because it even gives us variety to our removal. With it we have a chance for both creatures and removal to function. That said, the biggest detriment I think to canopy is that it's not actually a forest or a plains. It sometimes sucks with you really need that creature boost; however, it's still not always relevant.

Now, what I've noticed is that having land is better than not, which many agree with I assume. Games where I was able to ramp up to 3 mana on turn 3 seemed to be so much better than those where I'd be stuck on 2 land, or goodness knows only 1. We are an aggressive deck, so we need to be able to play like that. While a draw with 2 lands may give us an extra threat, a draw with 3 lands lets us put a lot more pressure on the opponent. We can dump plenty of creatures, still have room for removal, and even be fine in face of LD. And as much as the next guy I love when I can get away with 1/2 lands, but really it seems that these games go much worse than I'd like. I have more cards to work with, but I don't have as much speed as I want.

(Note: I have not actually testing 3-drops all that much.) Now, onto that thought, I played a little bit with Knight of Reliquary, and honestly it wasn't that I didn't like him, because I really did. However, I really did not like that he cost 3. Although he was big, I felt like he just slowed me down, when I just wanted to be as aggressive as possible. He's clearly one of the best things to draw in topdecking mode/extra land mode, but other than that I really was disappointed.

I'm not exactly sure what we need to do about this situation, but I think we need something. It's one of the reasons why I've liked figure for so long, because he can be useful in the lategame and earlygame. People say that zoo doesn't have a mid/late-game, but I feel like that's how people have just built the deck in the past. I've started to see a shift in builds, with people giving more credence to those cards that are useful in the mid/late game stage, and I like this change. I don't think we have to be simply an early-game deck, because we have so many great tools available to us. I really do think that we can find ways to circumvent this problem.

The other problem being card advantage/quality. People have also been playing library, which makes me happy. The one thing I don't like about it is that it's not always that usable, and the 4 life is pretty steep. However, with helix in our deck and swords used against us it's somewhat useful for us. I'm fairly happy with library, but I still wish we had something a little bit...Not sure if we really do right now though.

[jazzykat]

IMO Sylvan library is incredible. The arguments for and against are strong but it gives you another way to turn a resource (your life) into a win.

I can't believe anyone is cutting Lavamancer. If I were to cut a 1 drop it would be Kird Ape. Lavamang does so many amazing things. He single handedly squeezes the last few points out in a creature stall, keeps tribal weenies in check before things get nut burger all for the price of converting another resource (your graveyard) into the win.

[Sigar]

As a long time Zoo player...
...Just some food for thought there. looking forward to peoples responses.

Listen to this man, he seems smart!

[hungryLIKEALION]

The reason I argue for playing things like Library and KoTR is because, as nice as it would be to believe it does, zoo does not kill nearly as quickly as people want it to 99% of the time. You get interference from swords, force, daze, and so on. So you may goldfish on turn 4, but in real games you will not win until turns 6-7 often, and many times later. It is in those situations where you need to be able to produce larger threats to push through the last bits of damage, or more consistent threats. Library helps give you the card quality you need to end the game, and Knight gives you an excellent tool to push through their end game blockers with. I'm less enthusiastic about Thoctar since he quickly gets outclassed by opposing goyfs, but Knight is a great tool that allows you to win games simply by saying 'my guy is bigger than your team.'

[Media314r8]

The reason I argue for playing things like Library and KoTR is because, as nice as it would be to believe it does, zoo does not kill nearly as quickly as people want it to 99% of the time. You get interference from swords, force, daze, and so on. So you may goldfish on turn 4, but in real games you will not win until turns 6-7 often, and many times later. It is in those situations where you need to be able to produce larger threats to push through the last bits of damage, or more consistent threats. Library helps give you the card quality you need to end the game, and Knight gives you an excellent tool to push through their end game blockers with. I'm less enthusiastic about Thoctar since he quickly gets outclassed by opposing goyfs, but Knight is a great tool that allows you to win games simply by saying 'my guy is bigger than your team.'

-This-, in addition to knight's ability to act as a shuffle effect to get new cards with library, or to turn your dead lands into new cards via float mana, sac/fetch canopy, sac canopy for new card.

[jandax]

@Fling: Read the primer man, there is a detailed matchup analysis there.

I'm getting kinda bored with my Zoo list, and i kinda wanna switch it up a little. So this is what I'm going to test:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
2 Jitte
4 PTE
2 Sylvan Library [I've agreed that's it's good and worth spots]

4 Goyf
4 Nacatyl
4 Ape
4 Pridemage
2 Thoctar
2 Isamaru/Figure of Destiny

Since i cut Watchwolf, I'm not sure if i want to run FoD for more pure beef or not. I guess that's what testing is for. I added my 4th PTE because i've been running into alot more fat shit lately. Namely more Tombstalker, Goyf, and that 6/6 Pestilence Wumpus XD.

The list seems good. Though i might cut back down to 2 Chain Lightning for another creature. Bc 21-22 seems like the right number. Idk.

Constructive thoughts?
@LB
No scrolls, man? You were the biggest proponent! I'm not terribly thrilled about Chain Lightning. I'd cut the lightning for two Scrolls and one extra Throctar, or drop the throctars for Biatch of the Reliquary. And as far as going between Figure and Isamaru, you should devote these two creature slots to either the early game or late game. Early game being Isamaru, late being FoD. I also like you use path more than Swords, outside of like two decks that I can think of (gobbo/MUC), I'd really rather give them a tapped basic than 5+ life. In the end it'll still be a semi-soft time walk for Zoo, and I never wanna stray from the deck's main focus: 20dmg nao plzthx

Oh yeah, for 52 pages of this thread you've mispelled Nacatyl (Nacatl) every time!

[mackaber]

@Vatrix: Your list plays neither PoP nor Mancer so it can easily get away with 15 red sources. It's just been my experience that a dec running mancers needs at least 16 red sources to viably use him while doing other things lie Burn to Face.
Also I'd have to agree with my previous posters that not running mancer seems silly. He provides so much card advantage and gives you a lategameplan, all for a measily 1 mana. He's really up there as one of the best red spells ever printed and likely the best red creature ever.

@HungryLikeaLion/Media:Obviously the average opponent is not a goldfish. I'm just under the impression with the awesome amount of Burn available to us in legacy it might be more reliable to force through 15 to the face (which isn't too hard once you resolve PoP against most decs) than playing clunky stuff, that will also reduce the pressure your putting on the opponent in the early game.

I'm also wondering if running some figures might be a reasonable thing to do since he provides inevitability in the long run but also fits well into the mana curve.

[Skeggi]

I'm not really sure why I see so much Naya Zoo in here. In my meta Domain Zoo is far more popular, because it gives access to black - which gives access to Dark Confidant, which makes sure Sylvan Library isn't needed. With Dark Confidant, running Fireblast is risky, but you can easily substitute it for Tribal Flames (to maximize effect you only need to run 1 Volcanic Island). Black also gives access to Vindicate: next to Qasali Pridemage it's the Chalice and Counterbalance killer.

So really, how come I see so much Naya Zoo in here? I'm convinced Domain Zoo is much stronger.

[lorddotm]

I'm not really sure why I see so much Naya Zoo in here. In my meta Domain Zoo is far more popular, because it gives access to black - which gives access to Dark Confidant, which makes sure Sylvan Library isn't needed. With Dark Confidant, running Fireblast is risky, but you can easily substitute it for Tribal Flames (to maximize effect you only need to run 1 Volcanic Island). Black also gives access to Vindicate: next to Qasali Pridemage it's the Chalice and Counterbalance killer.

So really, how come I see so much Naya Zoo in here? I'm convinced Domain Zoo is much stronger.

I've never actually seen a Domain Zoo list...

[MMogg]

I've never actually seen a Domain Zoo list...

Here' (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27978)s an example:

They really look interesting. At least, they use the life gained from Helix in a productive way: removal and card draw.

[jandax]

I'm not really sure why I see so much Naya Zoo in here. In my meta Domain Zoo is far more popular, because it gives access to black - which gives access to Dark Confidant, which makes sure Sylvan Library isn't needed. With Dark Confidant, running Fireblast is risky, but you can easily substitute it for Tribal Flames (to maximize effect you only need to run 1 Volcanic Island). Black also gives access to Vindicate: next to Qasali Pridemage it's the Chalice and Counterbalance killer.

So really, how come I see so much Naya Zoo in here? I'm convinced Domain Zoo is much stronger.

This is the RGW Zoo deck thread, after all...

[jimmerz213]

This is the RGW Zoo deck thread, after all...

Technically no, not anymore. When Zoo got moved to DTB, they all go consolidated into this one thread. I think the main reason we arent discussing domain is because all of us who are passing ideas around are mostly Naya players. Nothing against Domain, but I just dont like it as much personally. Ive always just played RGW and never really questioned why, haha.

[tsabo_tavoc]

So really, how come I see so much Naya Zoo in here? I'm convinced Domain Zoo is much stronger.

It depends on the exposure to Wasteland and Moons. Many thresh builds stay 3 colors to up the Basicland counts.

Bob is the best from the additional color and better than Sylvan Library+Horizon Canopy. Tribal Flame is on par with Price of Progress and Fireblast. Vindicate is much more versatile than Krosan Grip, however, it is not as easily castable and can be countered.

[lorddotm]

Here' (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27978)s an example:

They really look interesting. At least, they use the life gained from Helix in a productive way: removal and card draw.

Wow the only thing I like about it is Confidant. Too bad Confidant+Snuff Out is almost the same as Confidant+Tombstalker, really really bad. Speaking of which, Tombstalker in Domain Zoo is a crazy bad idea right?

[eq.firemind]

They really look interesting. At least, they use the life gained from Helix in a productive way: removal and card draw.
Why not Sylvan Library?

IMHO Domain Zoo powerful, but a little unfocused and too greedy and there are shitloads of PoPs, Moons, Stifles and Wastes to punish that in almost every meta.
By the way, old theme. There were conversation about it some pages ago...

[mackaber]

In a format without non-Basic hate DomainZoo is obviously vastly superior to NayaZoo since DC rocks the party that rocks the party. Fireblast isn't really the problem since you can get away with running just as many Mountains as the current Naya'Zoo decs do, the real problem is you can't really afford to run basic lands which in essence means your asking for trouble.

While vindicate is nice, imho it's slightly too expensive for Legacy since the Stone Rain option, which was quite good against Combo and Control in Extended is too slow against these types of decs in legacy. Bob and Tribal Flames (extremly sexy since it's usually a hard removal spell for goyf) are the only real reasons to play the dec but they are mighty fine reasons.

[Skeggi]

It depends on the exposure to Wasteland and Moons.
Most Moons come in the form of a little creature. You can easily burn that one down.


I've never actually seen a Domain Zoo list...
Here's a list you could start off with:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Tribal Flames
4 Chain Lightning
4 Vindicate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Here's another list:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tribal Flames
4 Chain Lightning
2 Vindicate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Mountain
1 Forest

There is certain thinking required when fetching, other than that, it's your basic burn-and-hit list.

[lorddotm]

Most Moons come in the form of a little creature. You can easily burn that one down.


Here's a list you could start off with:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Tribal Flames
4 Chain Lightning
4 Vindicate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Here's another list:


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tribal Flames
4 Chain Lightning
2 Vindicate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Mountain
1 Forest

There is certain thinking required when fetching, other than that, it's your basic burn-and-hit list.

Ya, Naya Zoo seems a lot more powerful.

Skeggi, if this is taking over your meta, try Canadian Thresh or Team America, looks like that bends Domain Zoo over and violates it.

[Skeggi]

Canadian Thresh is also quite popular and doing well. Team America not so much, it gets thrashed by enough other decks. It's not like you can't play around Stifles. We have Naya Zoo here, they just don't score as high as Domain Zoo. I suggest you try it before you write it off.

[lorddotm]

Canadian Thresh is also quite popular and doing well. Team America not so much, it gets thrashed by enough other decks. It's not like you can't play around Stifles. We have Naya Zoo here, they just don't score as high as Domain Zoo. I suggest you try it before you write it off.

I hate red/green aggro, so I probably will not be trying this.

What are you playing now a days?

[Skeggi]

What are you playing now a days?
At the moment Domain Zoo, Merfolk, Ichorid, ANT, Stax, The Rock and UGWr CounterTop. But on tournaments so far I've only played Merfolk, Ichorid, Stax, The Rock, Eva Green, Team America, UGWr CounterTop, UGb CounterTop, Dragon Stompy and UGwb CounterTop. I could have missed a few... Why?

[lorddotm]

At the moment Domain Zoo, Merfolk, Ichorid, ANT, Stax, The Rock and UGWr CounterTop. But on tournaments so far I've only played Merfolk, Ichorid, Stax, The Rock, Eva Green, Team America, UGWr CounterTop, UGb CounterTop, Dragon Stompy and UGwb CounterTop. Why?

Curious lol.

[DragoFireheart]

Domain Zoo is too vulnerable in a meta full of Moons and Wastelands. Really, is it worth risking auto-losses just for an extra color in an Aggro deck? I could see it in a control deck since they would have counter magic to stop auto-losses, but not in a Zoo deck.

[lorddotm]

Domain Zoo is too vulnerable in a meta full of Moons and Wastelands. Really, is it worth risking auto-losses just for an extra color in an Aggro deck? I could see it in a control deck since they would have counter magic to stop auto-losses, but not in a Zoo deck.

Most Moons walk.

[DragoFireheart]

Most Moons walk.

Some are bloody as well. What do you plan to do about them? Grip? Game 2, they can drop a Blood Moon turn 1 and say "FUCK YOU PANDA ZOO, LOLOLOLOOL"

And Red has problems getting rid of enchantments, so...:frown:

[lorddotm]

Some are bloody as well. What do you plan to do about them? Grip? Game 2, they can drop a Blood Moon turn 1 and say "FUCK YOU PANDA ZOO, LOLOLOLOOL"

And Red has problems getting rid of enchantments, so...:frown:

Force of Will.

[iamajellydonut]

Speaking of which, Tombstalker in Domain Zoo is a crazy bad idea right?

I'm not sure... I'm kinda tempted, now.

[DragoFireheart]

Force of Will.

I wasn't aware that Domain Zoo played enough blue spells to run Force of Will.

[mackaber]

I wasn't aware that Domain Zoo played enough blue spells to run Force of Will.

Guys could we get back on track and cut out the gibberish. You only loose to moon if it comes down on time. If you have critters out (specificaly Pride Mage) and bolts in hand your definetly haven't lost yet so enough of this Moon Autoloss blubblub.

[MMogg]

Guys could we get back on track and cut out the gibberish. You only loose to moon if it comes down on time. If you have critters out (specificaly Pride Mage) and bolts in hand your definetly haven't lost yet so enough of this Moon Autoloss blubblub.


I agree on cutting down the useless posts in already massive threads
It's "lose" not "loose"
This talk of autoloss was mostly regarding Domain Zoo, which has a more unstable mana base than RGW
Moon isn't an autoloss, but game 1 turn 3/4 Moon really hurts: after you've used your fetches for nonbasics. If you know, however, you'll need to play around it, it's easy enough to fetch for basic lands in the first couple of turns before Moon hits.
With more and more red, like Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lavamancer, the deck is certainly not autoloss when Moon comes down, but it sure as hell slows Zoo down.

[Valtrix]

By the way...You just cannot run those domain zoo lists. Running only 1 of the color combinations is just too risky, especially with the colors that you really need. Fetchlands will become much less useful when they don't have redundancy in targets.

I actually like domain zoo a lot more because of confidant. I absolutely hate playing a deck without draw in it =| I'm not sure just how useful tribal flames is though, and if a volcanic island is worth splashing even more. I'm not sure if that's being too greedy.

[ZaMo]

I've seen a vial-powered version of Domain Zoo mentioned several (dozen) pages earlier. It should not get eclipsed by Moons so easily.

[Eldariel]

I can attest to Tribal Flames being Really Good. Most importantly, it usually kills the 4/5 Goyf you encounter, and double Flames ends games almost like the almighty Fireblast itself. Dark Confidant though, doesn't really fall that well into the same style that just wants beef in play and deals as much damage to the opponent as possible; it's small and enables much of opponent's otherwise dead removal.

I played Naya Zoo splashing B and U for Tribal Flames for the last extended season and never really had any interest in playing Dark Confidant simply because Keldons & Goyfs were just better and there are only so many 2-drops you want to play. Now with the printing of Pride-Mage and its integral role in the deck, fitting Confi would be even harder without skewing up the curve.

I find the 5c version looks unappealing is without even thinking about the likelihood of constantly getting cut off colors by Wastelands, losing hardcore to mass non-basic hate, being unable to really utilize Price of Progress (a card not available in Extended; had it been, I probably would have just played 3c instead) and having much worse MU vs. Aggro Loam, Landstill and any deck capable of recurring Wastelands, really.


If 5c had notable advantages over 3c, the splash might be consideration worthy, but necessity of a worse curve to actually utilize the splash, inability to support Price of Progress and inability to use basic lands is more than enough to counterbalance the additions of Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant in my experience.

[Srovex]

Quick question. What do you do against Progenitus? I just came by this montrosity by turn 3 and all I could do was curl up and cry. It seems that only way to battle them with my current list (including sb) is to aggressively remove all possible targets for Natural Order and if the 10/10 hits table you have 2 turns to race and/or burn to face. Any suggestions?

[Valtrix]

Yep, keep them off their creatures. If you're doing that, then you can probably just straight-up race them. I really don't think it's that much of an issue. You're faster, and even after the creature hits the table you still have some time. They might also try to go for empyrial archangel, but honestly...I'm not sure that she's as scary. I was able to just get rid of it right away.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@LB
No scrolls, man? You were the biggest proponent! I'm not terribly thrilled about Chain Lightning. I'd cut the lightning for two Scrolls and one extra Throctar, or drop the throctars for Biatch of the Reliquary. And as far as going between Figure and Isamaru, you should devote these two creature slots to either the early game or late game. Early game being Isamaru, late being FoD. I also like you use path more than Swords, outside of like two decks that I can think of (gobbo/MUC), I'd really rather give them a tapped basic than 5+ life. In the end it'll still be a semi-soft time walk for Zoo, and I never wanna stray from the deck's main focus: 20dmg nao plzthx

Oh yeah, for 52 pages of this thread you've mispelled Nacatyl (Nacatl) every time!

Yeah, like i still think scroll is a good option, but I've just cut it after a turn one Hippie fucked my shit up a few times. It's just good for getting rid of random critters in my meta. People still run Mother of Runes, Shade, small stuff that can be problematic like that. I like the Knight, but i want to attack the turn after i cast it. The difference between a 4/4 starting and a 5/4 starting really gets me, plus i don't have any Knights right now.

I think I'm just gonna stick with Isamaru, i hate having a mana dump in the first few turns with FoD, and that's what got me about him. I might make the change eventually, but meh.

Yeah i like Nacatyl spelled my way, it seems much more suited with a y :tongue:

And to the people that keep asking me about Lavamancer, i run too many permanents in my build to run him. I'm thinking about switching Chain for more creatures or something, so that would even hinder me running him more.

And in my opinion, this thread is still RGw Zoo, i mean, the primer is still RGw and Domain is a joke in my opinion. Those decks must never play against Wasteland or anything. I've said this a million times.

[jimmerz213]

Quick question. What do you do against Progenitus? I just came by this montrosity by turn 3 and all I could do was curl up and cry. It seems that only way to battle them with my current list (including sb) is to aggressively remove all possible targets for Natural Order and if the 10/10 hits table you have 2 turns to race and/or burn to face. Any suggestions?

If im going into a meta I know runs No-Prog, Ill actually have a wrath of god in the SB just in case I have to play them. Also, turn 2 Teeg is a solid play, as long as you can protect him well enough. Against mono green thats not hard, unless they play with survival/squee/masticore too.

In a straight up race, helix's can buy you a crucial turn and hope for epic top decks. It sucks, for sure, but its winnable.

[mackaber]

If im going into a meta I know runs No-Prog, Ill actually have a wrath of god in the SB just in case I have to play them.

Lol. A Typical Case of succumbing to the FEAR. Wrath in an Aggro Creature dec with 20 lands, you must be kidding right?

[jandax]

Lol. A Typical Case of succumbing to the FEAR. Wrath in an Aggro Creature dec with 20 lands, you must be kidding right?

I lol'd


then i cried a little.

[DrJones]

Tariff. You meant Tariff.

[Eldariel]

Fuck, turn 3 Proge is often too slow vs. you, provided you play some actual burn and less-than-infi creatures. Rain down some lightning and thunder and nothing should survive long enough to be eaten by Natural Order anyways.

Though this is one of the cases where lacking RDW's land denial capabilities sucks. That said, I wouldn't waste card slots killing Proge; it's so eminently avoidable that spending cards on stopping it doesn't seem worth it. And yeah, Tariff is the card you want if you want specific anti-Proge SB slots.


Though I wouldn't. Wing Shards could also work, especially given a burn-spell or two to Storm it and indeed is probably the better spell, but meh.

[mackaber]

Fuck, turn 3 Proge is often too slow vs. you, provided you play some actual burn and less-than-infi creatures. Rain down some lightning and thunder and nothing should survive long enough to be eaten by Natural Order anyways.

Though this is one of the cases where lacking RDW's land denial capabilities sucks. That said, I wouldn't waste card slots killing Proge; it's so eminently avoidable that spending cards on stopping it doesn't seem worth it. And yeah, Tariff is the card you want if you want specific anti-Proge SB slots.


Though I wouldn't. Wing Shards could also work, especially given a burn-spell or two to Storm it and indeed is probably the better spell, but meh.

So Eladriel what's your standpoint on Library/3-drops in this dec versus just more burn? It seems like Zoo decs in extended were actually running some 3 mana spells but as a whole that format was much slower.

[jimmerz213]

Lol. A Typical Case of succumbing to the FEAR. Wrath in an Aggro Creature dec with 20 lands, you must be kidding right?

Actually, I wasn't. I do run the one, and Ill be the first person to tell you I'm not the best at crafting a sideboard. I don't know every single card ever so that's the one I had and knew would do what I needed so it went in.


Tariff. You meant Tariff.

I didn't even know this card existed until now, its definitely better.

[Valtrix]

Yeah, if you're worried about Progenitus that much, I think runed halo (over wrath) is probably your best option after teeg. It helps in many more matchups, and doesn't hurt you at all. Plus it's way easier to cast.

[Eldariel]

So Eladriel what's your standpoint on Library/3-drops in this dec versus just more burn? It seems like Zoo decs in extended were actually running some 3 mana spells but as a whole that format was much slower.

Well, I don't necessarily find they can't co-exist. 24 non-burn spells (including Grims), 21 lands, 15 burn-spells seems perfectly sufficient to me. In Extended, I opted to run 20/20/20, but as you run into less early disruption there courtesy to format lacking Daze & Force, you were more able to rely on your early drops sticking and getting there for enough damage to finish with burn.

In Legacy, while the "turboburn suite" is more efficient courtesy of Price being a bomb and Fireblast being Fireblast, getting the first ~10 points your creatures are supposed to deal is harder vs. interactive decks so some gamebreakers to use to refuel are probably in order. Testing two Sylvan Libraries, I really liked the card as I was often able to freely sink even 16 life into it no problem after an StP or two and just burn people out while using creatures to force them to waste time not dying.


Generally the first two-three plays vs. e.g. countertop seem to get countered, but usually they're out of hard counters at that point and a non-creature like Sylvan they really can't remove efficiently can just break the game wide open.

Knight was less impressive; when I have a creature, I want to spend time swinging, not turning lands into cards. Also, 3-drops are slow - I'd much rather burn something. That said, a few test games I just plain wouldn't have won without the enormous beef offered by Knight in my team. It may be worthwhile to play few, especially as they slip past Counterbalance quite nicely and have such a great synergy with Fireblast.

[Valtrix]

So, on the topic of 3-drops, has anybody tried countryside crusher? I don't recall much discussion about him ever... I don't like that he starts out as a 3/3, but that can be worked around if needed. More than him being able to get big I really like that he keeps us drawing into good cards. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant his inclusion, but I feel like he might be good over some of our other choices.

[keys]

Based on this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28664)T8 list, consider these changes:


-2 Sylvan Library
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
-X burn
+2-3 Proclamation of Rebirth
+2-3 Ranger of Eos
+X Figure of Destiny/Mogg Fanatic
+X Jitte

Burrenton Forge Tender and Children of Korlis would be good in the SB too. Is this win more? The card advantage from Proclamation/Ranger is hard to ignore, but it slows the deck a bit.

[Koby]

So a 3 mana sorcery to recover dead creatures? A 4 mana creature that finds other small creatures? Somehow I fail to see how these helps you win the game faster in Legacy. Burn would just be better than this setup.

Figure of Destiny has been dismissed several pages back as too mana intensive for the effect he provides.

[keys]

So a 3 mana sorcery to recover dead creatures? A 4 mana creature that finds other small creatures? Somehow I fail to see how these helps you win the game faster in Legacy. Burn would just be better than this setup.

Figure of Destiny has been dismissed several pages back as too mana intensive for the effect he provides.

It doesn't speed up your goldfish, but neither does Knight of the Reliquary. With so much aggro/aggrocontrol in the metagame, the card advantage and tempo from Proclamation seems pretty strong to me.

Ranger might be expensive at 4cmc, but it's 9 total power with Nacatl...

The only problem is that the most popular removal spells are Path/Swords. Still an interesting concept that apparently can work.

[MMogg]

It doesn't speed up your goldfish, but neither does Knight of the Reliquary. With so much aggro/aggrocontrol in the metagame, the card advantage and tempo from Proclamation seems pretty strong to me.

Ranger might be expensive at 4cmc, but it's 9 total power with Nacatl...

The only problem is that the most popular removal spells are Path/Swords. Still an interesting concept that apparently can work.

Interesting stuff, but I think my (and probably others') apprehension is that the additions to the deck are all mid-to-late game cards that are ways of replenishing your forces. The trouble is that they don't draw on the deck's strength of getting your opponent from 20-0 a.s.a.p. They almost play the opponent's game instead of focusing on why Zoo is a DTB in the first place. The art of beatdown is about fast, strong creatures, not 4 cc creatures that get you 2 1cc creatures to cast on turn 5. After your first wave has perished, your opponent should be within burn range.

[mackaber]

It doesn't speed up your goldfish, but neither does Knight of the Reliquary. With so much aggro/aggrocontrol in the metagame, the card advantage and tempo from Proclamation seems pretty strong to me.

Explain to me how Proclamation creates tempo.

But seriously Ranger is an extremel strong Card that kicked ass in extended, altough mainly in the SB. People should definetly consider a pair for matchups that tend to end in attrition wars.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I really feel like this deck is slowing itself way the fuck down. I mean some of the card suggestions posted in here are ok, or even good, but Ranger of Eos? Most games you don't even get to 4 mana, and when you go, you wanna go, equip Jitte, burn, burn, or something of that sort.

Proclamation only seems okay against control, and even then you're just dumping mana for a chumpblocker for Goyf, and ALOT of mana at that. I know most builds have Knight for mana ramping, but you have to think of the times you won't get Knight of the mana required for Proclamation.

The advantage we have over those kind of decks is that we can Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast for 10 on turn 3. Slowing down isn't the answer, especially in the case of those cards.

[jandax]

In regards to Ranger of Eos and Proclamation, you have access to better creatures/spells than these so why swap them in? They aren't as threatening as the stuff you suggested be switched out.

I can agree in part, with the rest that is. It just didn't seem broke enough to fix

[memnarch]

I really feel like this deck is slowing itself way the fuck down. I mean some of the card suggestions posted in here are ok, or even good, but Ranger of Eos? Most games you don't even get to 4 mana, and when you go, you wanna go, equip Jitte, burn, burn, or something of that sort.

Proclamation only seems okay against control, and even then you're just dumping mana for a chumpblocker for Goyf, and ALOT of mana at that. I know most builds have Knight for mana ramping, but you have to think of the times you won't get Knight of the mana required for Proclamation.

The advantage we have over those kind of decks is that we can Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast for 10 on turn 3. Slowing down isn't the answer, especially in the case of those cards.

I totally agree with this. Sorry to barge in on the conversation but I have been playing around with zoo online and its best to think in the terms of "how can I opperate on one land in case my opponent wastelands etc." The deck should be consistent and reliable, thats its strength.

[PlatinumHellkite]

I made Top 8 at Feinstein's last Mox Tournament at Die Hard Games in RI with a pretty standard Zoo list and went 5-2-1 at the last Extended PTQ in Hartford, CT with a Zoo list with Ranger of Eos and Proc of Rebirth main deck. I speak from experience, Ranger and Proc have no business being in a Legacy list. Upping your curve with this deck is a horrible thing to do. The less mana you can operate on the better. I love Ranger Zoo and will be seriously testing it for the Extended season starting in January but would never consider it for Legacy.

[mackaber]

I totally agree with this. Sorry to barge in on the conversation but I have been playing around with zoo online and its best to think in the terms of "how can I opperate on one land in case my opponent wastelands etc." The deck should be consistent and reliable, thats its strength.

Second the sentiment.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Won a pretty competitive 17 man tournament today for a copy of FTV:Exiled (I just wanted the kird ape.) Here was my list;

4x Nacatl
2x Kird ape
2x Figure
4x Goyf
4x Pridemage
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Knight of the Reliquary
-21 creatures-

4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Price of Progress
2x Jitte
2x Sylvan Library
-18 spells-

3x Plateau
2x Savannah
2x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Horizon Canopy
1x SCPlains
1x SCForest
1x SCMountain
-21 land-

I'm gonna go post a tournament report in the appropriate section with more details.

Oh yeah, my SB was;

1x Duergar Hedgemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
2x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle

Edit//It's up. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14713

[Skeggi]

I played Naya Zoo splashing B and U for Tribal Flames for the last extended season and never really had any interest in playing Dark Confidant simply because Keldons & Goyfs were just better and there are only so many 2-drops you want to play. Now with the printing of Pride-Mage and its integral role in the deck, fitting Confi would be even harder without skewing up the curve.
An unanswered Dark Confidant wins you the game. If people can't see this point of view, my posts are useless: Domain Zoo's success is driven by Dark Confidant. If you don't like him, I don't think there's a reason to go Domain.

I can't seriously believe there are people who prefer Ranger of Eos over Dark Confidant. Or other sub-par creatures like Knight of the Reliquary.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Or other sub-par creatures like Knight of the Reliquary....

KoTR being KoTR has won me an inordinate number of games. Unanswered, he will win every game you play him, often in situations where no other card you could reasonably play will.

I just don't understand why people hate on a creature that will literally be larger than tarmogoyf 4 out of every 5 times you play him.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@hungryLIKEALION: Because most people don't take time to test these cards, so they make snap judgements, you know how it goes. The Zoo thread has acknowledged Knight as a pimp fattie, so don't worry.

[Volt]

Yeah, KotR is a bomb. No way am I adding a 4th color to run Bobs.

[Skeggi]

Don't worry, I test the cards alright. I've seen Knight of the Reliquary in action plenty of times, and it seems to me it's simply too slow. Rather than sitting as a blocker, waiting to grow with the tap ability I'd like to go offensive. I must admit that KotR is a way better card than Ranger of Eos, but I still consider it sub-par if you look at the other options you have. Saying KotR is bigger than a Tarmogoyf isn't enough for me: Lorescale Qoatl often gets bigger than Tamogoyf and we don't play that card either, do we? Why don't we play that card? Number 1 reason is because we don't have blue mana, but that put aside, a Domain Zoo list with a Tropical Island next to the Volcanic Island isn't unthinkable, and still wouldn't play Lorescale Qoatl because it's 3 mana: It's too slow. Knight of the Reliquary has the same problem: at 3 mana it comes later in the game than all the other creatures. This also prevents you from playing an extra spell like Bolt or PtE if you need it. Next to the fact that it comes late into the game, it also takes some time to grow. Your opponent could already be dead if you used faster cards. For that matter Whoolly Thoctar is better because it doesn't need time to grow.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Don't try to compare lorescale coatl with Kotr. They're completely different cards. We don't play coatl because it starts out tiny no matter when you play it, and grows very slowly. KoTR, however, is a 6/6 when you topdeck it, and grows quickly. To compare the two is insulting, and shows that you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Waikiki]

I've been playing countryside crusher in the knight slot.

It makes sure you keep getting gas. and the yard gets filled more for lavamancer to eat from.

Also my builds is more focussed on red and plays 20 burn spells 20 creatures and 20 lands.

[Skeggi]

Getting a bit personal are we? There's no need to attack me personally. I do test the cards, I do have argumentation. I agree with the fact that KotR is a better topdeck than a Qoatl; it's true that a Qoatl always has to grow and a KotR doesn't (originally I was going to use Polar Kraken as an example, it's also bigger than Tarmogoyf, but since there is no way any Zoo list could ever cast it I switched to Qoatl). But the point of the matter remains the same - if you topdeck a KotR and bring it into play - if it's 6/6; you're usually lategame. I understand that KotR can win you the game here, but perhaps you already should have won before this. I prefer Domain Zoo lists with Dark Confidant and I'll have no Knight of the Reliquary in it. I've explained why. If you still prefer Knight of the Reliquary, that's your business. I feel no need to call you clueless because of it, because being an internet tough guy is really pathetic.

[chokin]

Don't worry, I test the cards alright. I've seen Knight of the Reliquary in action plenty of times, and it seems to me it's simply too slow. Rather than sitting as a blocker, waiting to grow with the tap ability I'd like to go offensive. I must admit that KotR is a way better card than Ranger of Eos, but I still consider it sub-par if you look at the other options you have. Saying KotR is bigger than a Tarmogoyf isn't enough for me: Lorescale Qoatl often gets bigger than Tamogoyf and we don't play that card either, do we? Why don't we play that card? Number 1 reason is because we don't have blue mana, but that put aside, a Domain Zoo list with a Tropical Island next to the Volcanic Island isn't unthinkable, and still wouldn't play Lorescale Qoatl because it's 3 mana: It's too slow. Knight of the Reliquary has the same problem: at 3 mana it comes later in the game than all the other creatures. This also prevents you from playing an extra spell like Bolt or PtE if you need it. Next to the fact that it comes late into the game, it also takes some time to grow. Your opponent could already be dead if you used faster cards. For that matter Whoolly Thoctar is better because it doesn't need time to grow.

KotR doesn't really need time to grow if you're playing him close to the midgame. Between your fetchlands and possibly theirs, he should be at least a 4/4 or bigger. Coatl always starts as a 2/2.

While Confidant is undoubtedly badass in decks with low curves, does his benefit outweigh weakening the manabase to get an extra color? And out of curiosity, what else besides Confidant would you include to the deck to make the extra splash worth running?

[jandax]

Don't worry, I test the cards alright. I've seen Knight of the Reliquary in action plenty of times, and it seems to me it's simply too slow. Rather than sitting as a blocker, waiting to grow with the tap ability I'd like to go offensive. I must admit that KotR is a way better card than Ranger of Eos, but I still consider it sub-par if you look at the other options you have. Saying KotR is bigger than a Tarmogoyf isn't enough for me: Lorescale Qoatl often gets bigger than Tamogoyf and we don't play that card either, do we? Why don't we play that card? Number 1 reason is because we don't have blue mana, but that put aside, a Domain Zoo list with a Tropical Island next to the Volcanic Island isn't unthinkable, and still wouldn't play Lorescale Qoatl because it's 3 mana: It's too slow. Knight of the Reliquary has the same problem: at 3 mana it comes later in the game than all the other creatures. This also prevents you from playing an extra spell like Bolt or PtE if you need it. Next to the fact that it comes late into the game, it also takes some time to grow. Your opponent could already be dead if you used faster cards. For that matter Whoolly Thoctar is better because it doesn't need time to grow.

Hey uh, you play at the Twee Klavieren at all?



KotR doesn't really need time to grow if you're playing him close to the midgame. Between your fetchlands and possibly theirs, he should be at least a 4/4 or bigger. Coatl always starts as a 2/2.

While Confidant is undoubtedly badass in decks with low curves, does his benefit outweigh weakening the manabase to get an extra color? And out of curiosity, what else besides Confidant would you include to the deck to make the extra splash worth running?

Knight only gets buffs from lands in your graveyard. If that weren't the case, then folks really don't have any reason to knock this guy, as he's a goyf/manafixer and deserves a fuggin' slot no questions

[Skeggi]

Between your fetchlands and possibly theirs, he should be at least a 4/4 or bigger.
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.

Aha... that's why you're such a fan :tongue:.

While Confidant is undoubtedly badass in decks with low curves, does his benefit outweigh weakening the manabase to get an extra color? And out of curiosity, what else besides Confidant would you include to the deck to make the extra splash worth running?
2-3 Vindicates. Oh, and indirectly Tribal Flames.


Hey uh, you play at the Twee Klavieren at all?
Yes. Do I know you? - Any personal stuff like this via PM please, let's not clog up the forum :smile:.

[mackaber]

Also my builds is more focussed on red and plays 20 burn spells 20 creatures and 20 lands.

Would you care to share that list Waikiki? Sounds a lot like what I'm trying to put together but I haven't quite gotten there yet. Are you leaving out Pridemages?

Also all this catfighting about KotR is really childish. I think the question wheter you want to play him or not, really comes down to the question if you can afford to run a 3 drop and cast it consistently.
While in a format without wastelands you'll be able to bring him out a liitle later than turn 4 on average assuming a list with 21 lands. The question remains if you really need a fatty boom boom in the dec or if you just want to go for b2f as your lategame plan. I think this discussion might have a bit more merrit if you started to compare KotR with what you'd replace it with and for me that would be Chain Lightning no4 and PoP no4.

[eq.firemind]

2-3 Vindicates.
Nice effect? Yes.

Beats? No.
Burns? No.
Costs 1 or 2? No...
The deck lacks removal? No (especially after WotC printed Pridemage).
Bad colors? Yes...

So why play it in this deck?

[mackaber]

The deck lacks removal? No (especially after WotC printed Pridemage).


He definetly has a point there...

[Skeggi]

You are asking the right questions eg.firemind. Vindicate seems like something that doesn't belong in such an aggressive deck as Zoo. But since it's very versatile it can bail you out of situations you normally would have a problem with. Try casting a Qasali Pridemage when there's a Counterbalance in play. Vindicate tends to get through a bit easier. Vindicate is almost never a dead card. It's not exactly the best against ANT for instance, nor is it any good if you have nothing to target - but in that case you're already winning. However, I think Vindicates are good, but optional. The black splash is primarily for Dark Confidant - without him, running Vindicate would just be silly because it's a reactional control card. With Dark Condifant, you draw your extra card and therefor you can afford to put some extra effort in destroying your opponent's stuff.

[jandax]

Agreed. To keep zoo's awesome consistancy, just splash a couple of B/U (Badlands/Volcanic Island/Underground Sea) producing duals that can be fetched appropriately, and find a slot for four Bob's and four Tribal flames. There is nothing outside of the blue in the p9 that is worth a card slot

[MMogg]

You are asking the right questions eg.firemind. Vindicate seems like something that doesn't belong in such an aggressive deck as Zoo. But since it's very versatile it can bail you out of situations you normally would have a problem with. Try casting a Qasali Pridemage when there's a Counterbalance in play. Vindicate tends to get through a bit easier. Vindicate is almost never a dead card. It's not exactly the best against ANT for instance, nor is it any good if you have nothing to target - but in that case you're already winning. However, I think Vindicates are good, but optional. The black splash is primarily for Dark Confidant - without him, running Vindicate would just be silly because it's a reactional control card. With Dark Condifant, you draw your extra card and therefor you can afford to put some extra effort in destroying your opponent's stuff.

Black also gives you access to Snuff Out, which may be better in matchups against decks with Chalice. Hyper aggressive decks may also like Snuff Out as it A) doesn't cost any mana, allowing you to cast more during your first few turns, and B) doesn't give your opponent an advantage of a land or life. Anyway, if one were to run black, Snuff Out should definitely be tested.

[Skeggi]

I don't know about you but I'm hesitant in running Dark Confidant + Snuff Out in a deck with alot of fetches and no way to alter the first few cards on top of your deck.

[jandax]

Well, it can be agreed that splashing for Bob isn't a difficult thing to do, and won't compromise consistency or aggressiveness, right?

Adding other black spells where the RGW ones you already have listed will do is kind of counter productive. Bob is a two power Sylvan Library, virtually taking up two extra slots and replacing the two Libraries already occupy. Not tough at all to find a way for him to fit in. And in that case I'd rather run Lavamancer over Cursed Scroll, as you might have cards in hand by the time Scroll gets online.

[MMogg]

I don't know about you but I'm hesitant in running Dark Confidant + Snuff Out in a deck with alot of fetches and no way to alter the first few cards on top of your deck.

Suicide Zoo. :wink: If you ran Helix, that would help a little with the life loss. As I said, if one were to run black, Snuff Out ought to at least be tested. It has great potential on paper.

[jandax]

I still don't understand why one wouldn't run a set of Helix's

[Carabas]

Skeggi, how much of your meta plays wasteland? I see a lot of merfolk and tempo thresh, a little dragon stompy, and now that lands.dek has been performing well, I expect to see some of that. This would make splashing black more of a risk.

If I were to splash black, I would just do it for Dark Confidant. Vindicate seems to do too little for too high a cost. I'd rather play maindeck Krosan Grip, or play path to exile in that slot. It just seems like a card I'd be boarding out a lot of the time.

[Skeggi]

It looks like my meta is about the same - wastelandwise. Wastelands actually aren't that bad if you have a Dark Confidant in play. And you can play around Wasteland good enough. For instance, you have a manabase with all fetches and duals, and only 1 mountain. Your hand has 2 fetches; a Bloodstained Mire and a Windswept Heath. Your first fetch could be to the singleton Mountain if you have a Kird Ape in your hand - otherwise you can opt to not fetch. Turn 2 you fetch for Bayou and play Dark Confidant. I understand both options are not optimal, and I would only do it if I knew for sure the opponent has access to Wastelands.

Naya Zoo has a more stable manabase than Domain Zoo, that's a fact. But like Naya Zoo, you don't die of 1 Wasteland. Not even two. The Stifles can be a problem, I must say, but isn't the same true for Naya Zoo? The actual difference between the decks is that Back to Basics can really cripple Domain Zoo, while Naya Zoo usually still manages just fine with the basics. So the question really is - how many Back to Basics do you see in your meta?

[Waikiki]

Would you care to share that list Waikiki? Sounds a lot like what I'm trying to put together but I haven't quite gotten there yet. Are you leaving out Pridemages?


Sure my list:

// Lands
1 [A] Savannah
2 [US] Mountain (3)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Taiga
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Plateau
1 [ON] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [AN] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [VI] Fireblast
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [RAV] Lightning Helix/Pop not sure what I like best in this slot.

[MMogg]

I still don't understand why one wouldn't run a set of Helix's

Speed mostly, and in true aggro decks, your own life is insignificant, and in that case the life gain is meaningless. It does come in handy in the mirror though or indeed against any aggro deck.


Naya Zoo has a more stable manabase than Domain Zoo, that's a fact. But like Naya Zoo, you don't die of 1 Wasteland. Not even two. The Stifles can be a problem, I must say, but isn't the same true for Naya Zoo? The actual difference between the decks is that Back to Basics can really cripple Domain Zoo, while Naya Zoo usually still manages just fine with the basics. So the question really is - how many Back to Basics do you see in your meta?

It would seem to be, unless I'm missing something, that Stifle on Zoo's fetches is better than having something you've fetched for Wastelanded. If you have already fetched and then have it Wasted (assuming you didn't go for basics), you'd have one less chance of a land draw to compensate.

[mackaber]

Sure my list:



How's rift bolt been working out for you? I loved it in Type2 and extended but when testing it in legacy I wasn't overly fond of it. I think my main qualf was waiting the turn to burn a duder.

[Waikiki]

I think its pretty good, I dont know of any better burn spell.

And when cost T1 or T2 the opponent most of the times holds his creep in hand for another turn which gives you another turn to kick in with your ape.

Also it dodges CB better then the rest. (dont count fireblast there)

[hungryLIKEALION]

Getting a bit personal are we? There's no need to attack me personally. I do test the cards, I do have argumentation. I agree with the fact that KotR is a better topdeck than a Qoatl; it's true that a Qoatl always has to grow and a KotR doesn't (originally I was going to use Polar Kraken as an example, it's also bigger than Tarmogoyf, but since there is no way any Zoo list could ever cast it I switched to Qoatl). But the point of the matter remains the same - if you topdeck a KotR and bring it into play - if it's 6/6; you're usually lategame. I understand that KotR can win you the game here, but perhaps you already should have won before this. I prefer Domain Zoo lists with Dark Confidant and I'll have no Knight of the Reliquary in it. I've explained why. If you still prefer Knight of the Reliquary, that's your business. I feel no need to call you clueless because of it, because being an internet tough guy is really pathetic.I'm not trying to be an internet tough guy, I'm just telling you that to compare KoTR with coatl is retarded and shouldn't be done, and if you are seriously trying to use the comparison to prove a point you're flat out wrong.

[jandax]

And not to be an internet ref. but when you make a claim you should provide some substance. I mean, comparing KotR to Qoatl is like apples and oranges; both are round, grow on trees, contain citric acids and naturally occuring sugars, contain seeds within a juicy pulp, have colorful skin, are round....

Point is, they have mroe in common than they have differences. For the sake of Qoatl/Kotr being better or worse than the other, what are the differences that outweigh the common ground for these two cards? Besides requiring blue mana...

[Skeggi]

I just don't understand why people hate on a creature that will literally be larger than tarmogoyf 4 out of every 5 times you play him.
I was replying to this. You said you don't understand why people hate on a creature that will literally be larger than Tarmogoyf. My point is that there are lots of creatures that are (or will become) bigger than Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is good because he is undercosted. Knight of the Reliquary is alot of things, but I wouldn't call her undercosted. That's the entire point: it's not about Lorescale Qoatl per se. It's about any creature that is or can get bigger than Tarmogoyf. You don't run Wild Nacatl because they're bigger than Tarmogoyf (because often they're not). You run them because they're undercosted.

[xycsoscyx]

And not to be an internet ref. but when you make a claim you should provide some substance. I mean, comparing KotR to Qoatl is like apples and oranges; both are round, grow on trees, contain citric acids and naturally occuring sugars, contain seeds within a juicy pulp, have colorful skin, are round....

Point is, they have mroe in common than they have differences. For the sake of Qoatl/Kotr being better or worse than the other, what are the differences that outweigh the common ground for these two cards? Besides requiring blue mana...

They actually don't have as much in common as you seem to think, one is constant and one is variable. If you drop KotR, you know exactly what her P/T is and will be, regardless of when and how many times you play her. If I play her with 3 lands in the grave, she WILL be 5/5. Coatl is variable, every time you play it it is only a 2/2, guaranteed. Especially without extra draw, it'll only be a 3/3 when it's able to attack. All the while KotR is able to block as a 5/5 the turn it's played, and then still swing in for 5 when she attacks.

Especially with a lot of Merfolk and bounce in general, Coatl becomes worse because you have to start from scratch every time, while KotR is the same every time you play her. Fearing burn the turn you play Coatl seems bad as well, they can just burn Coatl while KotR is instant beef. I think the only guarantee for Coatl is that it WILL get one larger every turn, but I think that is far outweighed by the fact that you have no control over increasing that in a deck like Zoo, while you have plenty of control over KotR thanks to fetches and canopy.

[jandax]

And to build on that; if you have an active Knight out before a player drops a wasteland....it is a practical Pithing Needle if you leave it open to activate.

All of the previous post is justified though, I agree with it

[Skeggi]

I think you guys are missing the point I'm making. I used Lorescale Qoatl as an example because it's a ridiculous card to use in Zoo. KotR isn't as ridiculous, but I see it as a sub-par card, because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. But that's just my humble opinion. By all means, if you feel KotR is the right creature for you, go right ahead. I won't mind :wink:.

[Skeggi]

I think you guys are missing the point I'm making. I used Lorescale Qoatl as an example because it's a ridiculous card to use in Zoo.
Really... how can I make it more clear... do I have to spell it out?

To add some relevance to the thread:


It would seem to be, unless I'm missing something, that Stifle on Zoo's fetches is better than having something you've fetched for Wastelanded. If you have already fetched and then have it Wasted (assuming you didn't go for basics), you'd have one less chance of a land draw to compensate.

I think Stifle is worse than Wasteland because Wasteland costs your opponent a landdrop and therefor it costs him tempo. Also, the ability to fetch to a basic is not to be underestimated. Stifle also negates that.

[Eldariel]

An unanswered Dark Confidant wins you the game. If people can't see this point of view, my posts are useless: Domain Zoo's success is driven by Dark Confidant. If you don't like him, I don't think there's a reason to go Domain.

I can't seriously believe there are people who prefer Ranger of Eos over Dark Confidant. Or other sub-par creatures like Knight of the Reliquary.

The question is how aggressive you want to go. Given choice between Price and Confidant, I'll take Price every time 'cause just a resolved Price tends to be enough to win, while Confidant needs to sit around for multiple turns before he's done his thing.

Also, Price complements the deck's normal strategy, while Confidant instead wants to go into the long game. This is the principal reason I prefer Price to Confidant; it gives me the option to make the goldfish as fast as possible.


That said, I agree with your assessment of the format being able to slow the deck down enough that the deck wants some draw engine. I feel Sylvan Library does the same role Confidant does surprisingly well; it translates extra turns into extra cards and better cards, while being extremely hard to remove.

Confidant being a creature is a disadvantage in my book since it's easier to remove. If Sylvan Library didn't exist, the faster nature of answers in Legacy might very well convince me that a 4th splash is a necessary evil, but given Sylvan Library exists, that seems unnecessary.

Knight is also nice; you rarely tap it. Generally couple of fetches and a Fireblast make it the biggest thing in game really quick and it can be swinging for the fences the turn after it comes into play - we can't play more than 4 Goyfs and we're worse at resolving and protecting them than the blue decks, so we need some more redundancy to win past opposing Goyfs and frankly, KotR feels like the best option.

You only turn it into card advantage mode when both players are spent and the board is stalled, or you know the opponent has a removal spell (that's pretty easy to tell). I wouldn't run it for the CA function alone, but being a trump beater AND a CA machine depending on the board state is pretty damn good.


I do know Confidant is a good card, but it just feels wrong for this deck. Sure, I'd consider replacing the 2 Libraries with Confidant if Confi were Green, but as it's black, I don't think the advantages it has are large enough to warrant a splash. And no, I really wouldn't run much more since the card hardly facilitates the "20 damage ASAP" this deck uses as its primary plan.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Nice effect? Yes.

Beats? No.
Burns? No.
Costs 1 or 2? No...
The deck lacks removal? No (especially after WotC printed Pridemage).
Bad colors? Yes...

So why play it in this deck?

black does leave an opening for Carno-/Lithophage.
Of what I've seen of Zoo, I still wouldn't suggest it...
although Blue for Serendib Efreet is a bit of a different matter... Lol
What do you guys think of Qasali Pridemage in the SB for Mirror/Aggro matchups?

[Volt]

Eldariel said everything I wanted to say but was too lazy to articulate.

I made the switch from Woolly Thoctar to KotR a few weeks ago, even though I had been pretty happy with Thoctar up to that point. If KotR isn't bigger than goyf the turn it enters the battlefield, it will be on the next turn, whereas Thoctar typically just trades with goyfs.

[hungryLIKEALION]

black does leave an opening for Carno-/Lithophage.
Of what I've seen of Zoo, I still wouldn't suggest it...
although Blue for Serendib Efreet is a bit of a different matter... Lol
What do you guys think of Qasali Pridemage in the SB for Mirror/Aggro matchups?

If you're not playing Pridemage as a 4 of in your main, you're doing it wrong. Seriously, he is absurd in the amount of things he does.

-Turn two swing for 3/4 with ape/nacatl respectively
-Wins Goyf standoffs, as well as letting your apes/nacatls swing past early goyfs
-Removes all the annoying permanents that can give this deck serious problems
-Beats for 2, 3 if it's alone

Seriously, the card is absurd, and it's the primary reason I believe Zoo has become a DTB at this point.

[chokin]

If you're not playing Pridemage as a 4 of in your main, you're doing it wrong. Seriously, he is absurd in the amount of things he does.

-Turn two swing for 3/4 with ape/nacatl respectively
-Wins Goyf standoffs, as well as letting your apes/nacatls swing past early goyfs
-Removes all the annoying permanents that can give this deck serious problems
-Beats for 2, 3 if it's alone

Seriously, the card is absurd, and it's the primary reason I believe Zoo has become a DTB at this point.

Pesky things it eats from the DTB section:
-Standstill
-CB
-B2B
-Propaganda
-Chill
-Vials
-EE
-Deeds

And so on. I read somewhere that Aggro Loam used to be able to beat Zoo with Seismic Assault, but QP gives maindecked hate against that nonsense.

[Thoughtseizer]

Pesky things it eats from the DTB section:
-Standstill
-CB
-B2B
-Propaganda
-Chill
-Vials
-EE
-Deeds


You forgot the following:

-chalice (at 1)
-vodalian shackles
-blood moon
-Trinisphere
-Top

He is the bomb! Would you ever consider running any less then 4x Tarmogoyf main deck? Of course not!

Well, in my view, the same thing applies to Pridemage; he breaths new life into zoo decks of all kind. That is in fact a gross understatement.

[keys]

Pesky things it eats from the DTB section:
-Standstill
-CB
-B2B
-Propaganda
-Chill
-Vials
-EE
-Deeds

And so on. I read somewhere that Aggro Loam used to be able to beat Zoo with Seismic Assault, but QP gives maindecked hate against that nonsense.

Aggro Loam still beats Zoo with Devastating Dreams.

[Pastorofmuppets]

If you're not playing Pridemage as a 4 of in your main, you're doing it wrong. Seriously, he is absurd in the amount of things he does.

-Turn two swing for 3/4 with ape/nacatl respectively
-Wins Goyf standoffs, as well as letting your apes/nacatls swing past early goyfs
-Removes all the annoying permanents that can give this deck serious problems
-Beats for 2, 3 if it's alone

Seriously, the card is absurd, and it's the primary reason I believe Zoo has become a DTB at this point.

Actually I meant Qasali Ambusher. You know, the free guy. I know Pridemage is of Epic Proportions.

[Eldariel]

Aggro Loam still beats Zoo with Devastating Dreams.

That depends. I've beaten Aggro Loam before; it's all in the tempo. Aggro Loam is a relatively slow deck and has no lifegain effects meaning you can sandbag lands and burn them out when they're recuperating from DD; you should be able to put enough pressure on them that they don't have the choice of waiting until they have 5-6 lands to DD.

The key is to keep their creatures dead; that way they have to do a balanced DD that sets them back just as bad as you. Of course, sometimes Wasteland+Loam can prove to be a real problem, but ultimately that involves dicking around while your dudes beat them in the face so unless you haven't seen more than 2 lands in the whole game, you should be able to deal with that.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Actually I meant Qasali Ambusher. You know, the free guy. I know Pridemage is of Epic Proportions.Oh. Well then, no, because a 2/3 is not worth it in the mirror since it gets munched by nacatl. It's decent against merfolk, but bad against all the other aggro control decks since he won't be able to reliably eat anything.

And in regards to loam, that matchup tends to be entirely about extremely early beats and price of progress, and the resolution thereof.

[chokin]

Oh. Well then, no, because a 2/3 is not worth it in the mirror since it gets munched by nacatl. It's decent against merfolk, but bad against all the other aggro control decks since he won't be able to reliably eat anything.

And in regards to loam, that matchup tends to be entirely about extremely early beats and price of progress, and the resolution thereof.

True that. A conditionally free Kird Ape that costs 3 to use normally is very lackluster.

And Aggro Loam can be challenging with DDreams, but it's not always game over. Goyf can live through it and you have a lot of cheap burn. It does suck when they drop Vore though. But aren't decks picking up KotR or other stuff now?

[Skeggi]

The question is how aggressive you want to go. Given choice between Price and Confidant, I'll take Price every time 'cause just a resolved Price tends to be enough to win, while Confidant needs to sit around for multiple turns before he's done his thing.

Also, Price complements the deck's normal strategy, while Confidant instead wants to go into the long game. This is the principal reason I prefer Price to Confidant; it gives me the option to make the goldfish as fast as possible.

While Price of Progress is a really good card and I'd really like to play it, I still prefer the alternative of Dark Condidant and Tribal Flames. Price of Progress depends on the gamestate of your opponent. For instance, it's very good against Landstill, but in that match-up it has a big chance of recieving a counter. Price deals usually somewhere between 0-10 damage, 6-8 being most common, but it can be a pretty dead card against certain decks. Next to that, it also deals 4-6 damage to you. Tribal Flames deals a consistant 4-5 damage. You can count on it because its based on your gamestate and Dark Confidant manages to make sure you'll get there every time. It just seems a whole more synergetic to me.

But perhaps it's a meta call. If you're in a meta where decks with nonbasics do well, nonbasic hate drops and Domain Zoo seems to be the better option. If you're in a meta with only nonbasics... well... shouldn't you just play Dragon Stompy then? (Or Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or Merfolk with maindeck Back to Basics.)

[Eldariel]

While Price of Progress is a really good card and I'd really like to play it, I still prefer the alternative of Dark Condidant and Tribal Flames. Price of Progress depends on the gamestate of your opponent. For instance, it's very good against Landstill, but in that match-up it has a big chance of recieving a counter. Price deals usually somewhere between 0-10 damage, 6-8 being most common, but it can be a pretty dead card against certain decks. Next to that, it also deals 4-6 damage to you. Tribal Flames deals a consistant 4-5 damage. You can count on it because its based on your gamestate and Dark Confidant manages to make sure you'll get there every time. It just seems a whole more synergetic to me.

Due to the existence of Wasteland, seeing you can count on it being 4-5 every game seems wee bit optimistic. I'd also like to highlight that Price is an Instant which is fairly huge especially when maneuvering around Countertop for the finish.

And yeah, I wouldn't play 4 Confidant for a billion other reasons; devoting 4 slots to doing something that doesn't kill your opponent efficiently just doesn't seem concordant with the deck's goals, and if I wanted the "I draw more cards and win"-effect, I could just play Sylvan Library.


But perhaps it's a meta call. If you're in a meta where decks with nonbasics do well, nonbasic hate drops and Domain Zoo seems to be the better option. If you're in a meta with only nonbasics... well... shouldn't you just play Dragon Stompy then? (Or Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or Merfolk with maindeck Back to Basics.)

Eh, sure, Domain Zoo would be better in a meta with no non-basic hate, but does such a Legacy-meta really exist? Between all the land disruption available in the format, that frankly seems like an impossibility, and frankly Domain Zoo doesn't feel like nearly the best option to abuse the meta (something like Lands.dec could be MUCH better, for example).

For a meta with Tempo Thresh/Merfolk/etc. it's worth noting that Price isn't negated by opponent having 1-2 basics in his deck; chances are it's still dealing a notable amount of damage which is a huge advantage over Moon/B2B/similar effects. Also, Zoo is a completely different type of deck and has completely different match-ups and metagame slots so "shouldn't you play X instead" isn't really a compelling argument as you cannot really make deck choices based only on one dimension of the meta.

[lordofthepit]

Anyone interested in trying out Plated Geopede when it comes out of Zendikar?

Plated Geopede :1::r:
Creature - Insect Common
First strike
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, Plated Geopede get +2/+2 until end of turn.

I believe that there are only 12 "must-have" creatures in this deck (Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Pridemage), as well as others whose inclusion depends on the metagame (Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Thoctar, KotR).

A 1/1 first striker for 1R isn't too impressive by itself, but in the early game, you should be able to consistently make land drops, so it's usually a 3/3 first striker (with potential to get larger with fetchlands). Late game, it turns every topdecked land into a pump spell. Even nicer is the ability to drop a fetchland for a two +2/+2 triggers, or better yet, play stupid tricks with Knight of the Reliquary (i.e. +2/+2 for a land drop, +2/+2 for grabbing a fetchland with KotR, +2/+2 for fetching another land). I think it has a lot of potential.

Don't overlook the first strike either. Even if the guy is a meager 3/3 first striker, your opponent will think twice before blocking with his 5/6 Goyf if you have red untapped for a Bolt.

[Skeggi]

Due to the existence of Wasteland, seeing you can count on it being 4-5 every game seems wee bit optimistic.
Nah, you can get 4-5 consistantly.


I'd also like to highlight that Price is an Instant which is fairly huge especially when maneuvering around Countertop for the finish.

Good point. Although Domain Zoo does have a few extra anti-countertop weapons in the form of a few Vindicates, but since you can't really rely on them; it's still a good point.


And yeah, I wouldn't play 4 Confidant for a billion other reasons; devoting 4 slots to doing something that doesn't kill your opponent efficiently just doesn't seem concordant with the deck's goals, and if I wanted the "I draw more cards and win"-effect, I could just play Sylvan Library.

Having to pay 4 life each time I want an extra card seems a bit risky. Dark Confidant never gets that expensive. As a result Dark Confidant nets you more extra cards. But I give you that you can put a cork on Sylvan Library more easily; Dark Confidant can be bad for your health. Your point that Dark Confidant doesn't kill your opponent efficiently seems a bit off to me: Sylvan Library does an even worse job. So it's 4 slots for something that can be used as a beatstick (and often is), or 2 slots for something that just waves at the opponent and blows him kisses.


Eh, sure, Domain Zoo would be better in a meta with no non-basic hate, but does such a Legacy-meta really exist? Between all the land disruption available in the format, that frankly seems like an impossibility
That's true, but it's not like Domain Zoo just rolls over and dies whenever it smells a Wasteland, a Stifle, or a Moon. You still have a fair chance. As said before: Stifle is the worst, but I think that also applies to Naya Zoo.


For a meta with Tempo Thresh/Merfolk/etc. it's worth noting that Price isn't negated by opponent having 1-2 basics in his deck; chances are it's still dealing a notable amount of damage which is a huge advantage over Moon/B2B/similar effects. Also, Zoo is a completely different type of deck and has completely different match-ups and metagame slots so "shouldn't you play X instead" isn't really a compelling argument as you cannot really make deck choices based only on one dimension of the meta.
Well, it was more of a question. You're very right; you don't just blindly switch to a different deck just because you noticed there are almost only nonbasics in your meta. There are subtle differences. But you do have to ask yourself that question. If it answers 'No, because Naya Zoo consistently sets a tight clock and decks in my meta can't handle with that.' I'd say you're spot-on deckchoice-wise. Don't get me wrong, I think Naya Zoo is a great deck. But it's all this thread used to talk about, while Domain Zoo is at least equally good in my opinion. I also think it's more fun to play. Domain Zoo deserves at least just as much attention.


Anyone interested in trying out Plated Geopede when it comes out of Zendikar?
At 2 mana, I think it doesn't cut it.

[Eldariel]

Having to pay 4 life each time I want an extra card seems a bit risky. Dark Confidant never gets that expensive. As a result Dark Confidant nets you more extra cards. But I give you that you can put a cork on Sylvan Library more easily; Dark Confidant can be bad for your health. Your point that Dark Confidant doesn't kill your opponent efficiently seems a bit off to me: Sylvan Library does an even worse job. So it's 4 slots for something that can be used as a beatstick (and often is), or 2 slots for something that just waves at the opponent and blows him kisses.

My point was that I'm not really comfortable dedicating more than 2 slots to that role and if I splashed Confidants, splashing for 2 Confidants seems a tad silly.


That's true, but it's not like Domain Zoo just rolls over and dies whenever it smells a Wasteland, a Stifle, or a Moon. You still have a fair chance. As said before: Stifle is the worst, but I think that also applies to Naya Zoo.

This is true, but when I'm confident my deck can beat practically any opponent who sits across from me, I really want to minimize my chances of losing to factors outside my control, such as manalight draw losing to lack of ability to fetch basics, which is why I value mana stability quite highly here. I hate the idea of "just losing" when with small alterations I could have played the game, milked my opponent's mistakes and won.


Don't get me wrong, I think Naya Zoo is a great deck. But it's all this thread used to talk about, while Domain Zoo is at least equally good in my opinion. I also think it's more fun to play. Domain Zoo deserves at least just as much attention.

While this may be true, the results are hugely in 3c's favor. From the last breakdown, we have:

RGW: 20
RGWb: 1
5c: 4


Make of those what you will. Maybe people just play 3c overwhelmingly more. Maybe 3c is just performing overwhelmingly better. I'm the wrong guy to answer that.

[jandax]

Anyone interested in trying out Plated Geopede when it comes out of Zendikar?

Plated Geopede :1::r:
Creature - Insect Common
First strike
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, Plated Geopede get +2/+2 until end of turn.

I believe that there are only 12 "must-have" creatures in this deck (Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Pridemage), as well as others whose inclusion depends on the metagame (Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Thoctar, KotR).

A 1/1 first striker for 1R isn't too impressive by itself, but in the early game, you should be able to consistently make land drops, so it's usually a 3/3 first striker (with potential to get larger with fetchlands). Late game, it turns every topdecked land into a pump spell. Even nicer is the ability to drop a fetchland for a two +2/+2 triggers, or better yet, play stupid tricks with Knight of the Reliquary (i.e. +2/+2 for a land drop, +2/+2 for grabbing a fetchland with KotR, +2/+2 for fetching another land). I think it has a lot of potential.

Don't overlook the first strike either. Even if the guy is a meager 3/3 first striker, your opponent will think twice before blocking with his 5/6 Goyf if you have red untapped for a Bolt.

No questions asked if it were R instead of 1R.

There is nothing to cut for this guy.

[yugular]

Hi,

I am new to legacy and pretty new to Magic. Naya/RGW Zoo sounds and looks like interesting deck and I have started to build it to be my first legacy deck.

However I would like to look some different build options. So far I have noticed Waikiki's build that focuses on R & Burn:


// Lands
1 [A] Savannah
2 [US] Mountain (3)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Taiga
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Plateau
1 [ON] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [AN] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [VI] Fireblast
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [b] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [RAV] Lightning Helix/Pop not sure what I like best in this slot.

hungryLIKEALION has a different kind of list that has Knight of the Reliquary and Sylvan Library:


4x Nacatl
2x Kird ape
2x Figure
4x Goyf
4x Pridemage
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Knight of the Reliquary
-21 creatures-

4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Price of Progress
2x Jitte
2x Sylvan Library
-18 spells-

3x Plateau
2x Savannah
2x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Horizon Canopy
1x SCPlains
1x SCForest
1x SCMountain
-21 land-

I also found a build that Loxodon Baileyarch is testing:


4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
2 Jitte
4 PTE
2 Sylvan Library [I've agreed that's it's good and worth spots]

4 Goyf
4 Nacatyl
4 Ape
4 Pridemage
2 Thoctar
2 Isamaru/Figure of Destiny

Then there is of course the build in the opening post (I quess it is a bit outdated, right?):

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest

Like I said I am newbie and I am looking for different types of builds but I lack the knowledge to really understand the differences they make. Also some cards are hard for me to get. For example Horizon Canopy. What is the purpose of this card? And how it is used/played? Does it fit to all builds or just those with KotR? Cards like Sylvan Library are also new to me and I am not sure how it should be utilized. Any tips and explanations are welcome, but note that I am "newbie" and you maybe need to start from the basics. :)

I also wonder why some people prefer Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile, while others think the other way. What is the main difference between these cards and how I should decide which to run? Is it meta dependant?

Also manabase is something that needs clarifying for me. We need 20-21 lands right? Why some builds use Bloodstrained Mire although they don't run/need swamps? How many fetches are reguired generally? How many duals? Why only 1 basic lands?

Thanks and sorry if I ruindes someones day with stupid questions. Just ignore them if I did. And even though this looks like I dont understand a bit from this deck its not completely true - I understand we need full set of Tarmogoyfs :)

-yugular

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Like I said I am newbie and I am looking for different types of builds but I lack the knowledge to really understand the differences they make. Also some cards are hard for me to get. For example Horizon Canopy. What is the purpose of this card? And how it is used/played? Does it fit to all builds or just those with KotR? Cards like Sylvan Library are also new to me and I am not sure how it should be utilized. Any tips and explanations are welcome, but note that I am "newbie" and you maybe need to start from the basics. :)

I also wonder why some people prefer Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile, while others think the other way. What is the main difference between these cards and how I should decide which to run? Is it meta dependant?

Also manabase is something that needs clarifying for me. We need 20-21 lands right? Why some builds use Bloodstrained Mire although they don't run/need swamps? How many fetches are reguired generally? How many duals? Why only 1 basic lands?

If you read the thread, your answers will be out there in the open, because the entire thread has been flaming with points about all these cards. Basically it comes down to personal preference, and metagaming. People use PoP in bigger metagames where you don't know what's out there. Library has been the card to get you through to the late game, and it's basically a top that isn't mana intensive. I used to prefer Swords until i started losing due to the lifegain the opponent receives, so i made the switch, and everyone in my shop is convinced that PTE is better than STP in Zoo. Run one of each basic so you don't get completely screwed by nonbasicland hate. Mire is there to thin the deck more, and get those duals and that basic Mountain that Horizon Canopy just can't get.

My lists is -1 Chain Lightning, for a singleton FoD. So I'm running 2 Isamaru, 1 FoD. I think Zoo needs to be creature heavy, but hey that's just me.

Edit: I just got done playing some games with my new configuration, except i cut 2 Thoctar for Knight. I like Knight, he can get huge and i never tapped him and he was at most a 5/5, but even that makes him better than Thoctar. I had the chance to use Library, and it's pretty damned good. I like smoothing out your draws and getting the chance to draw an extra card too.

Also have i mentioned that Jitte is insane vs the format?? Bc it is.

[Svenyboy]

Hello guys,

here my Zooo:

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
3 Path to Exile

2 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains


-> I like more Creatures than Burn. I love Bloodbraid Elf because Cascade is very explosvies and can make a hard and fast game. We can play a Knight or something else without their manacost and this is the reason why I play the Elf. Furthermore we have a splash with Jet and Library. Library is very fast, the lifelost is wayne and we have a strong Midgame. We play with 21 Mana because Elf I play 4 Elf and 4 Knights. What do you think about this build?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Hello guys,

here my Zooo:

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
3 Path to Exile

2 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains


-> I like more Creatures than Burn. I love Bloodbraid Elf because Cascade is very explosvies and can make a hard and fast game. We can play a Knight or something else without their manacost and this is the reason why I play the Elf. Furthermore we have a splash with Jet and Library. Library is very fast, the lifelost is wayne and we have a strong Midgame. We play with 21 Mana because Elf I play 4 Elf and 4 Knights. What do you think about this build?
Bloodbraid Elf is the worst, cut him immediately. For anything, I'd rather run Shock at that point.

[Thoughtseizer]

Hello guys,

here my Zooo:

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
3 Path to Exile

2 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains


-> I like more Creatures than Burn. I love Bloodbraid Elf because Cascade is very explosvies and can make a hard and fast game. We can play a Knight or something else without their manacost and this is the reason why I play the Elf. Furthermore we have a splash with Jet and Library. Library is very fast, the lifelost is wayne and we have a strong Midgame. We play with 21 Mana because Elf I play 4 Elf and 4 Knights. What do you think about this build?

Path over Swords I think is a mistake but there is still good argument both ways so I won't chastise you for that. However, Magma Jet over Chain lightning, not tech.

[beastman]

Path over Swords I think is a mistake but there is still good argument both ways so I won't chastise you for that. However, Magma Jet over Chain lightning, not tech.

Are you serious? Jet is one of the best cards in the deck. Library manipulation is one of the most precious commodities that this deck can come by, and jet is the best way to do it, barring Sylvan Library, in which case, you still play 4 jets.

[Thoughtseizer]

Are you serious? Jet is one of the best cards in the deck. Library manipulation is one of the most precious commodities that this deck can come by, and jet is the best way to do it, barring Sylvan Library, in which case, you still play 4 jets.

One of the best cards in the deck eh?? What card would you say it is better then? The best and second best burn spells ever printed (lightning bolt and lightning helix)? Maybe the best spot removal spell in magic, swords to plowshares? Or how about the best first turn drop in the deck, nacatl or the the two best creatures in the deck Goyf and Pridemage?

I think it is a trite fact that even if you were going to play jet it is far from "one of the best cards in the deck". In my view, it is a second rate burn spell when you look at all of the other options available in that slot space for this deck in the legacy format. In case I am wrong, apparently a substantial amount of other Zoo players concur with me because jet is unanimously absent in all of the tier 1 legacy Zoo deck lists. Even peruse this thread and more times then not it is absent from any given deck list. I suspect that is for good reason.

I would have sworn that tempo, quickness, cheap efficient threats, board control are more important then library manipulation for this deck.

[FoulQ]

Nevermind. All I was trying to say is maybe there should be less discussion of cards already heavily discussed and instead try to innovate the current proven deck.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

How about we all just shut the hell up and play Hatfield's list, because it is the best TRADITIONAL list. If you like creature heavy, play something like loxodon's, if you like burn heavy, play something more like brian six at gp chicago (but that is not really zoo). Magma Jet and Swords have been discussed to death and jet is definitely no longer playable and swords is very questionable.

ETA: I didn't mean "shut the hell up" as in stop innovation obv. But this is slowly turning into the merfolk/goblin/burn thread all over again.

I wish everyone would pick themselves up off their knees and stop giving Hatfield gratuitous amounts of head. He did well in a tournament, whoopty. I'm not bashing his list or his skill, but everyone on this site just picks a mod or a player and sucks him off constantly. Learn for yourself how good cards play, and if you still wanna play bad cards at the end of the day, go for it.

[jandax]

SPeaking of this, a guy named Ernest has had his name dropped a few times in this thread...

[Pastorofmuppets]

True that. A conditionally free Kird Ape that costs 3 to use normally is very lackluster.

And Aggro Loam can be challenging with DDreams, but it's not always game over. Goyf can live through it and you have a lot of cheap burn. It does suck when they drop Vore though. But aren't decks picking up KotR or other stuff now?

zoo could always run 'Vore in the SB if you have some intense underlying problem with Aggro Loam.

[hungryLIKEALION]

No offense to those who worked on the primer at the beginning of this thread, but it kinda sucks. I was wondering, if I wrote a new primer (Or someone else if they want to), could we get it updated? It just bothers me that the other DTBs all have these nice, detailed, professional looking primers while we have... a lot of exclamation points.

[Valtrix]

I asked awhile back if anybody had played with Countryside Crusher, and what they thought about him. I saw him in a list a week back, so I'm just bringing my question up again since nobody acknowledged it before.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I asked awhile back if anybody had played with Countryside Crusher, and what they thought about him. I saw him in a list a week back, so I'm just bringing my question up again since nobody acknowledged it before.

I haven't gotten around to trying him yet like I said I would, but I promise I'll try it sooner or later. >_>

[FoulQ]

If you read my post you would see I said it is one of the three standard approaches. I used his example because it is a well known build and is one of three possible approaches to the deck. I'm not saying everyone should play his list of 75, just that we shouldn't divulge too much into discussing cards that have already been proven to be bad and instead focus on improving one of the three zoo branches: creature heavy, medium, and burn heavy. Whatever.

[technomancer]

Deck
Lands
4xwooded foothills
4xwindswepth heath
3xtaiga
3xplateau
3xsavannah
1xmountain
1xforest
1xplains

Creatures
4xwoolly thoctar
4xtarmogoyf
4xgrim lavamancer
4xqasali pridemage
4xwild nacatl
4xkird ape

Spells
4xlightning bolt
4xchain lightning
4xlightning helix
4xpath to exile

Sideboard
3xethersworn canonist
3xkrosan grip
3x Pithing Needle
3xtormod's crypt
3x Sulfuric Vortex

This is my version of the deck.

I like it, and feel t hat it plays well...What do you guys think of my build?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Deck
Lands
4xwooded foothills
4xwindswepth heath
3xtaiga
3xplateau
3xsavannah
1xmountain
1xforest
1xplains

Creatures
4xwoolly thoctar
4xtarmogoyf
4xgrim lavamancer
4xqasali pridemage
4xwild nacatl
4xkird ape

Spells
4xlightning bolt
4xchain lightning
4xlightning helix
4xpath to exile

Sideboard
3xethersworn canonist
3xkrosan grip
3x Pithing Needle
3xtormod's crypt
3x Sulfuric Vortex

This is my version of the deck.

I like it, and feel t hat it plays well...What do you guys think of my build?

4 thoctars are probably too much. I'm also noting a lack of Knights.

[GMTemplar]

I like it, and feel t hat it plays well...What do you guys think of my build?

Drop a savannah for mire. Savannah is the least wanted dual and you need the extra fetch to fuel your mancers because you're going creature heavy.

Whether you go with Thoctars or Knights is up to you but 4 of either is too much. Run 2 or 3. Also, test Sylvan Library if you haven't yet.

[jandax]

Drop a savannah for mire. Savannah is the least wanted dual and you need the extra fetch to fuel your mancers because you're going creature heavy.

Whether you go with Thoctars or Knights is up to you but 4 of either is too much. Run 2 or 3. Also, test Sylvan Library if you haven't yet.

Knight of the Reliquary is the Supermarket Lavamancer needs. Be safe to assume 4 Throctars is too much, so test cutting those four slots for 2 Sylvan Libraries/Knights. If you hit any one card of this slot, you'll be happy you did. And definitely think about chopping a Savannah for a Bloodstained Mire.

Otherwise, this list seems to encompass all of the sensical tech this thread has put forth.

Another thing to try out:

getting the cards necessary to port this over to the domain Zoo build with Dark Confidant instead of 4 Libraries/Lavamancers/KotR. 4 Bob's can replace that card slot, and you can get a Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand to search for an Underground Sea/Volcanic Island. Drop Chain Lightning to get four slots for Tribal Flames. 12 cards on the side to make a completely different deck. Either way, you should do well with it, good luck!

[hungryLIKEALION]

you can get a Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand to search for an Underground Sea/Volcanic Island.

What? That's a HORRIBLE plan. You should only include one Volcanic Island to get blue with, since its only purpose in the deck is to power up 4 spells, and isn't even required to cast them. Just use your mires or foothills to fetch the island, or if you want to be able to fetch blue with all your fetches, add a tundra or a tropical island. But seriously, don't run an underground sea or blue fetches.

[keys]

What? That's a HORRIBLE plan. You should only include one Volcanic Island to get blue with, since its only purpose in the deck is to power up 4 spells, and isn't even required to cast them. Just use your mires or foothills to fetch the island, or if you want to be able to fetch blue with all your fetches, add a tundra or a tropical island. But seriously, don't run an underground sea or blue fetches.


Yeah. I think the best manabase for 5c Zoo is this:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

No blue fetches necessary. That's 2 black sources for the 4 Confidant and 4 Vindicate maindeck. 3 Needle in the SB for anti-wasteland, but it's always possible to fetch basics and play like Naya Zoo, holding onto black sources until they're needed.

[mackaber]

Yeah. I think the best manabase for 5c Zoo is this:



Manabases like that really hurt my eyes. Any Zoo Manabase not running 4 Wooded Foothills is simply not optimal.

[keys]

Manabases like that really hurt my eyes. Any Zoo Manabase not running 4 Wooded Foothills is simply not optimal.

Good call, +1 foothills, -1 mire is better. I just put the 3/3/3 split as needle protection.

[Wargoos]

No offense to those who worked on the primer at the beginning of this thread, but it kinda sucks. I was wondering, if I wrote a new primer (Or someone else if they want to), could we get it updated? It just bothers me that the other DTBs all have these nice, detailed, professional looking primers while we have... a lot of exclamation points.

I totally dig that.
You could cooperate with some other skilled Zoo player like Loxodon etc.
You have my vote.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I appreciate your faith in me. I'll ask loxy if he'd be interested.

[Schembo]

Scythe Tiger
g
Creature - Cat Common
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a Forest.
3/2

I think kird ape have to go now.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Scythe Tiger
g
Creature - Cat Common
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a Forest.
3/2

I think kird ape have to go now.

I intend to test this guy, but I don't have my hopes too high. This deck has enough trouble with mana denial as is, and you'd have to up your land count to something like 23-24 to compensate. I think in the end you'll find he's not worth it.

[MMogg]

Scythe Tiger
g
Creature - Cat Common
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a Forest.
3/2

I think kird ape have to go now.

I disagree. Sacrificing land in Zoo is not helpful. Either that, or the manabase would have to change to accommodate him. I do like the Shroud though.

Edit: once again, I'm too slow.

[mackaber]

I' don't think anyone ever considered running rogue elephant in this dec so I doubt the tiger will cut it especially since his drawback also negatively affects your other undercosted critters.

[Tacosnape]

I' don't think anyone ever considered running rogue elephant in this dec so I doubt the tiger will cut it especially since his drawback also negatively affects your other undercosted critters.

I kind of agree with this. 2 toughness won't make that shroud go too far. And your opponent will happily make the even trade in theory, because then you're down a card.

Also, Scythe Tiger sounds like the name of a Mega Man X boss. Just saying.

[gamegeek2]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94837&stc=1&d=1252210281

Looks like the manabase got a bit better.

[Joon]

But the question is, in my opinion, if you play RGW Naya Zoo, don't you have all your fetchies already? You can play a manabase featuring 4 Heath and 4 Foothills, so you'd be able to fetch every dual with every fetchland.

If you're focussing more on red than the other colors, it might be worth testing (or as Fetchie 9-10).

[rancOr_]

Not rly. That land is better because u should be playing 10 fetch with lavamancer/KotR and those 2 bloodstained mire's should be replaced by that new land then.

[keys]

U/G, U/R, and W/R fetches are going to be the hot items.

[Thoughtseizer]

U/G, U/R, and W/R fetches are going to be the hot items.

Each and ever one of the enemy fetch lands are going to be a hot ticket; including B/G for eva green, Team America and Rock!

Also, Rougue Elephant has never been playable in zoo or the old three deuce zoo variant decks. How is Tiger ever going to be playable here? Cut Kird Ape for Tiger? Common! That move is palpably less then prudent; and that's putting it mildly!

[hungryLIKEALION]

I actually think Arid Mesa will be a 4x in my manabase, because I usually want to search for a basic plains or mountain before I want to search for a basic forest.

[Volt]

I actually think Arid Mesa will be a 4x in my manabase, because I usually want to search for a basic plains or mountain before I want to search for a basic forest.

So, swap out Heaths for Mesas? Meh. Six one way, half a dozen the other.

[Thoughtseizer]

I actually think Arid Mesa will be a 4x in my manabase, because I usually want to search for a basic plains or mountain before I want to search for a basic forest.

4x is way too much! I don't know about you but I can honestly say that with 4x heath and 4x foothills I never get mana/ coloured screwed. The mana base I play right now is as follows:

4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains

In my view, this runs like a dream. At most I would consider two (2) Arid Mesa for my build. However, that being said, I could see another player running three (3). Running four (4) however is manifestly excessive.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I run ten fetches, so I'd run 4 foothills, 4 mesas, and 2 heaths.

[Thoughtseizer]

I run ten fetches, so I'd run 4 foothills, 4 mesas, and 2 heaths.

Nevertheless, still too many Arid Mesa's.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Nevertheless, still too many Arid Mesa's.

Why is that too many arid mesas? Do you actually have any logic for that? It's certainly better than windswept heath, and if I'm going to run 10 fetches, I'd rather be able to more reliably fetch my basic mountain. With 4 foothills, 4 heaths, and 2 mires you have 6 R fetches. With 4 mesas, 4 foothills, 2 heaths you have 8 R fetches. That, in my book, is better.

[dearleader]

I know the creature base for zoo is pretty tight, but is Goblin Guide worth testing? It's an unconditional 2/2 that acts as a free shock on the play. The drawback doesn't seem that harsh for Zoo, although it can help the opponent dig for solutions. There's also the ability to see what your opponent is drawing :laugh:.

If it is worth running, the question then becomes what cards would we cut for it? The zoo package of Apes, Natcls, Goyfs, Qasali's, Lavamancer(x3), KotR(x2). seems very stable. Perhaps Goblin Guide could be better than Kird Ape, since it's a better beater and allows you to play basic mountains in the early game without losing speed. Perhaps it could replace some some burn spells in a creature-heavy build.

What are your thoughts?

[Thoughtseizer]

The zoo package of Apes, Natcls, Goyfs, Qasali's, Lavamancer(x3), KotR(x2). seems very stable. Perhaps Goblin Guide could be better than Kird Ape, since it's a better beater and allows you to play basic mountains in the early game without losing speed. Perhaps it could replace some some burn spells in a creature-heavy build.

What are your thoughts?

I really don't think Knight of the Reliquary belongs in zoo. Firstly, the three casting cost is not very attractive. Secondly, you would need to run wasteland and in an already tight and fragile mana base I don't see that being proactive. The rest seems very reasonable though.


Why is that too many arid mesas? Do you actually have any logic for that? It's certainly better than windswept heath, and if I'm going to run 10 fetches, I'd rather be able to more reliably fetch my basic mountain. With 4 foothills, 4 heaths, and 2 mires you have 6 R fetches. With 4 mesas, 4 foothills, 2 heaths you have 8 R fetches. That, in my book, is better.

Well just as a preliminary note I question 10 fetch lands in this deck. I think 8 is optimal and comfortable. If a mana base isn't broken don't try and fix it. However, I don't see playing 10 as being fatal, just not optimal or attracting to me with 4 stifles main deck being packed in a lot blue based decks in my metagame. That being said, with the addition of a new playable fetch land for zoo, perhaps 10 can be beneficial to zoo in the near future.

In my view, green is a very important component for zoo right now based on the competitive metagame and dropping a first turn nacatl followed up by a second turn pridgemage or goyf is paramount to the decks early tempo and aggression. With moon effects from blood moon and Magus being problematic for zoo (especially early) I think a forest to fuel a pridemage or a grip (or teeg for that matter) is a more prudent move then getting a mountain which you will soon have an abundance of any ways. In my view, if not for anything, windswept heath is a more versatile and more needed resource then mesa's for this deck to get you out of difficult situations. I am not saying don't play mesa, I am just saying don't play 4 when you have 3 different fetch lands to choose from in addition to the much needed 1 of each basic and the duals. I think a balance of 3 each would suffice for your land base.

[Volt]

I know the creature base for zoo is pretty tight, but is Goblin Guide worth testing? It's an unconditional 2/2 that acts as a free shock on the play. The drawback doesn't seem that harsh for Zoo, although it can help the opponent dig for solutions. There's also the ability to see what your opponent is drawing :laugh:.

If it is worth running, the question then becomes what cards would we cut for it? The zoo package of Apes, Natcls, Goyfs, Qasali's, Lavamancer(x3), KotR(x2). seems very stable. Perhaps Goblin Guide could be better than Kird Ape, since it's a better beater and allows you to play basic mountains in the early game without losing speed. Perhaps it could replace some some burn spells in a creature-heavy build.

What are your thoughts?

Yes, Goblin Guide is worth testing. There is a chance that it could replace Kird Ape.

[lordofthepit]

Unless you're running a funky version of Zoo that's heavy on green, you should max out the Arid Mesas and Wooded Foothills before you touch the Windswept Heaths. And unless you're splashing for black, do not play Bloodstained Mire.

Not sure why people are questioning the inclusion of the Mesas at all.

[Thoughtseizer]

Unless you're running a funky version of Zoo that's heavy on green, you should max out the Arid Mesas and Wooded Foothills before you touch the Windswept Heaths. And unless you're splashing for black, do not play Bloodstained Mire.

Not sure why people are questioning the inclusion of the Mesas at all.

I am not questioning the inclusion of mesa's I am questioning the quantity (namely x4) when considering the other fetches, basics and dual lands this deck runs; 2-3 should suffice.

It is not a matter of "running heavy green" it is knowing that your splash of green is what gets you out of trouble (grip & pridemage) in a potentially really bad match. The basic forest is the key basic land for moon effects and hence for this reason heaths are needed; this evidently means you don't have enough space for 4 mesa's because this deck should only run 20-21 land max.

I concur with the Bloodstained Mire as that is an obvious given.

[Rizso]

I really don't think Knight of the Reliquary belongs in zoo. Firstly, the three casting cost is not very attractive. Secondly, you would need to run wasteland and in an already tight and fragile mana base I don't see that being proactive. The rest seems very reasonable though.


You dont need wastelands at all with the knight of the reliquary, Horizon Canapy thought works well with The knight.

[Thoughtseizer]

In order to truly abuse Knight of the Reliquary wasteland should be used. Moreover, I stand by my initial position that 3 cc is too much for what he does and for zoo decks in general. Knight is not even close to being good enough to make the cut in a tier 1 zoo deck list. What are you going to cut, Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage? Indeed, both would be very bad moves. River Boa, Watchwolf and Woolly Thoctar are all better in zoo then the knights and with the exception of a metagame boa, I would not play or recommend any of those.

[Pastorofmuppets]

In order to truly abuse Knight of the Reliquary wasteland should be used. Moreover, I stand by my initial position that 3 cc is too much for what he does and for zoo decks in general. Knight is not even close to being good enough to make the cut in a tier 1 zoo deck list. What are you going to cut, Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage? Indeed, both would be very bad moves. River Boa, Watchwolf and Woolly Thoctar are all better in zoo then the knights and with the exception of a metagame boa, I would not recommend any of those.

Pridemage replaced Watchwolf, and Thoctar isn't that good because of how color hungry he is. As for River Boa, how is that at all good? it's far outclassed by the deck's other 2-drops, and the regeneration isn't even relevant in Legacy.

[jimmerz213]

In order to truly abuse Knight of the Reliquary wasteland should be used. Moreover, I stand by my initial position that 3 cc is too much for what he does and for zoo decks in general. Knight is not even close to being good enough to make the cut in a tier 1 zoo deck list. What are you going to cut, Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage? Indeed, both would be very bad moves. River Boa, Watchwolf and Woolly Thoctar are all better in zoo then the knights and with the exception of a metagame boa, I would not recommend any of those.

How can you say 3cc is too much for what he does yet suggest that Thoctar (also a 3cc that doesnt do anything extra and is inherantly harder to cast) is better? Ive been running 2 Knights for a while now and I absolutely swear by them. They are almost guaranteed to be 4/4s minimum when you drop them and in one game they proved to be a clutch big beater (it was a mirror so our critters were trading/standoffing all match) that won me the round.

This is the list of creatures Im running now for reference:

4x Goyf
4x Nacatl
4x Pridemage
4x Watchwolf
2x Figure
2x Knight

Edit: Also, I dont run a single wasteland. Although, thats partially influenced by a basic heavy meta back home. That and I personally think its a horrible idea in this deck. Its dead early (for mana purposes), it chokes out your own tempo if you use it to blow up their lands, and it doesnt make nacatl bigger.

[Thoughtseizer]

How can you say 3cc is too much for what he does yet suggest that Thoctar (also a 3cc that doesnt do anything extra and is inherantly harder to cast) is better? Ive been running 2 Knights for a while now and I absolutely swear by them. They are almost guaranteed to be 4/4s minimum when you drop them and in one game they proved to be a clutch big beater (it was a mirror so our critters were trading/standoffing all match) that won me the round.

First off if you even bothered to actually read I clearly stated that I do not play nor recommend watchwolf or thoctar. However, I would probably play them over Knight nevertheless. Knight is 3cc and nothing in a competitive zoo deck list right now needs to be 3cc or higher. This is because there are so many better options with 1cc and 2cc cards. The following cards are all substantially better then Knight of the Reliquary in any tier 1 competitive zoo deck:

Tarmogoyf
Qasali Pridemage
Goblin Legionaire
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Grim Lavamancer

Now bear in mind this is in totality on a pound for pound basis. Yes, Knight maybe better then wild nacatl in terms of card power and ability. However, when you consider the casting cost of 1 vs. 3 plus two different colours to cast knight, my point emerges. Knight just doesn't make the cut in my view when the acute zoo player has more efficient and quicker options. This is not Rock or Haterator where you have birds and elves to bring it out turn 2.




This is the list of creatures Im running now for reference:

4x Goyf
4x Nacatl
4x Pridemage
4x Watchwolf
2x Figure
2x Knight



No offence intended and this is strictly constructive criticism but even with knight aside, figure of destiny and especially watchwolf are very sub-par and really should not have slots in this deck anymore when you consider the much faster, stronger and efficient options of creatures I listed above. Your version of "zoo" is pretty slow considering your total lack of 1c drops. I think it is quite perplexing that your list of creatures lack all of the following pivotal 1 drop creatures: Kird Ape, grim lavamancer and/ or Hound of Konda. How do you apply efficient early pressure and establish tempo and aggression out of the gate with the line up of creatures you listed above?

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've been running Knight as a 2 of since right around when alara reborn came out and have been nothing short of extremely happy with him. You don't need to run Wasteland to "abuse" him; He abuses himself by being so fucking huge that nothing else on the table can stand up to him.

Here's the big thing that people don't understand about zoo in the current metagame; This deck, when built for speed, CAN goldfish on turn 4. However, you will NEVER win that quickly through the disruption other decks provide unless they were already fucked to begin with. When a deck forces your turn 1 play, dazes your turn 2, and then drops a goyf with counter backup for your swords, you're gonna realize that your deck has a lot more trouble keeping its goyfs in play than other decks in the format, and many games do come down to whoever plays more goyfs wins. Having additional creatures that can go toe to toe with goyf is exactly what you need to be able to continue on your assault. And the other big thing I think people miss is what KoTR's role is in this deck; You're not trying to curve out on 3 (Though doing so is certainly not a bad thing). I often hold Knight in my hand until I have no other spells to cast (Or I need his big body to punch through my foe's defenses/stabilize in the mirror or against other aggro), and play him turn 5-6-7, from where he can easily take over any given game. And yes, having a 3 cost threat to play is very useful against blue decks packing spell snare and CB where your 1 and 2 cost threats are easily dealt with. When you're playing against a deck like CB and they counter/swords your goyfs and answer with their own, you're going to need some way to even the tide. KoTR does exactly that.

Like, really, I shouldn't even be arguing about this, since I already know I'm right. KoTR has won me an inordinate amount of games (Seriously, it's over 50 at least in tournies at this point), and NOT having some way to back up your tarmogoyfs is just asking to be outclassed by the opponent's threats. In a format with force, daze, and swords, trying to say that you can just kill them every game before they stabilize is ignorant.

Figure of Destiny is in the same boat; He's a cheap beater who can get in for damage early, but can also be a beast when you need him to be. He certainly does have a place in the deck, though I've never liked him as a four of.

And finally, regarding arid mesa, I don't know about you, but I tend to play around wasteland a lot more than around blood moon, and I believe that mesa is better for this purpose. But really, it's not even worth arguing about because the difference is so minuscule that it's ridiculous you've chosen to take such a stand against it.

Now that that's over...

I don't like Goblin Guide better than Kird Ape in this deck, but he could be viable in a more goyfsligh-like build. GG is fast, yes, but KA is more reliable and less likely to hand your opponent the game by getting them through land clumps. If I was going to play GG I'd probably still play KA and play a list that looks something like this;

4 nacatl
4 Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage

4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Helix
3 Price of Progress
3 Flameblast
2 Path to exile

20 Land

But really, that's more of a goyfsligh deck than zoo anyway.

[KrzyMoose]

Some numbers from Deckcheck.

In the past year, there are zero Zoo decks running Goblin Legionnaire in the maindeck.

In the past three months, there are eight Zoo decks running a non-zero number of Knight of the Reliquary in the maindeck.

Twelve out of like fourteen RGW Zoo decks from the past three months ran some form of the following configuration:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3-4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
0-2 Woolly Thoctar
0-3 Knight of the Reliquary (only one list ran three)
0-2 Gaddock Teeg (only in two decks)
0-2 Vexing Shusher (only in one deck)
0-3 Figure of Destiny (only in one deck)

So, yes.

The optimal configuration for RGW Zoo is thus:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridmage
0-2 Woolly Thoctar
0-2 Knight of the Reliquary

I feel KotR is much better than Thoctar, but I guess it's still personal preference.

*edit* Just to clarify, the only reason I stopped counting KotR at three months was because I was way too lazy to look farther back. I cut off at 05/02/09. If you wanted to go back farther than that, I'm sure you'd find more decks that support these numbers.

*edit 2* Also, in case you wanted to look at the data yourself, simply go to deckcheck.net, and enter in the card you're interested in finding in the (Advanced) Search bar at the top of the page. Do note that it pulls all lists across all formats, so simply look at the left column to make sure you're looking at Legacy lists.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Hah hah, Skyshroud Elite... I love that guy. I wish he was still an awesome one drop :(

[flrn]

Hah hah, Skyshroud Elite... I love that guy. I wish he was still an awesome one drop :(

Well here in our meta it still seems like a good drop. Every opponent i played in the last legacy tournament played duals or other nonbasics. tt

[flrn]

I´ve read the last pages of this thread. Just to make sure i get this right. When you play KotR he gets powered up by the fetchlands you played before, right? You arent using his ability, nor a land tool box in your deck, right?

[Volt]

I´ve read the last pages of this thread. Just to make sure i get this right. When you play KotR he gets powered up by the fetchlands you played before, right? You arent using his ability, nor a land tool box in your deck, right?
She gets powered up by any lands that are in your graveyard for any reason. Obviously, playing a bunch of fetches helps make her big. She's usually a 4/4 or bigger (sometimes a lot bigger) by the time she enters the battlefield. You can either start swinging with her as soon as she untaps, or, if the board is stalled, you can give her +2/+2 each turn by using her ability to get a fetchland or Horizon Canopy. The Canopies are especially nice because you can turn excess lands into cards in hand. The reason you don't play Wastelands is because they don't help you cast anything. They also have bad synergy with Price of Progress. Instead, you play Horizon Canopies to smooth out your own manabase. They're pretty amazing, actually.

[jazzykat]

Some observations after playing this deck a while:

Manabase:
To me, wasteland is useless. You are trying to kill your opponent, I mean literally bring their life total to 0 in as few turns as possible. I have been the victim of Canadian Thresh's, Merfolks and other lists LD tactics. What this deck needs is the most stable and fastest way to assure 1 of each color of mana with a green and a white mana available at the same time (Pridemage, and KoTR). If you have a early steady manabase short of playing vs. combo, or an early CB/Top lock I generally win.

PtE:
Originally I looked at it and thought the card was not playable in legacy. Given the speed of this deck and the fact that we don't destroy land, or play daze anyway I prefer it to swords for this deck.

KotR:
If you win before you can drop it that's great but as someone else stated above you need goyf's 5&6 because vs. Thresh decks it's normally about who has more goyfs and your normal goyfs are probably not going to stick.

Lavamancer:
I can't believe people talk about cutting this guy. Ever play against merfolk?

Pridemage:
WOW, I don't remember when 1 utilityesque card change the game so much. He single handedly gave this deck a reasonable MD answer to CB, Shackles, Standstill, etc. as well as breaking Goyf Stalemates.

All in all, in a comboless meta I can see why this is truly a DTB.

EDIT: Regarding Skeggi's comment is domain (or at least black for DC) zoo a reality now with enemy fetches as well? As I can see DC taking the slot of the 2 sylvan libraries.

[MMogg]

PtE:
Originally I looked at it and thought the card was not playable in legacy. Given the speed of this deck and the fact that we don't destroy land, or play daze anyway I prefer it to swords for this deck.

Good observations, except I really can't agree with this one. In reality, Swords to Plowshares shines against weenies like Goblin Lackey, but against bigger threats Path excels by helping you get to your goal of 0-20 as fast as possible. Even an additional five life to your opponent can mean the difference between one extra turn. Really tough call. In my opinion the deck runs enough burn to provide weenie removal and Path to Exile is great for bigger threats.

[Volt]

In my opinion the deck runs enough burn to provide weenie removal and Path to Exile is great for bigger threats.

Yep. This deck is perhaps the one exception to the "Plow > Path" rule for those exact reasons. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement on that topic anymore.

P.S. Thanks, Skeggi.

[Skeggi]

All in all, in a comboless meta I can see why this is truly a DTB.
Actually, (Domain) Zoo is a DTB in the Dutch meta, where ANT is also a DTB. The match-up isn't that favorable towards ANT as people traditionally think, as Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist stop ANT from going off, while fast aggro sometimes makes sure Ad Nauseaum fizzles while being cast at 9 lives or less (especially if you give your opponent a surprize Lightning Bolt).

[MMogg]

Yep. This deck is perhaps the one exception to the "Plow > Path" rule for those exact reasons. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement on that topic anymore.

Hehe, one of the first times I played Zoo I faced a Lord of Extinction! :laugh: That made up my mind pretty quickly.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Seriously i don't think anyone actually cares what Thoughtseizer posts anymore, not like he had much creditability in the first place. But anywho.

I was thinking about my list, and i like Sylvan Library, but i just think it takes away from what the deck wants to do. I'm giving the same thought process i had with Cursed Scroll. I love the card, but i don't wanna wait until later to get what i pay mana for. Idk it's a good card and idk if I'll cut it, but I'm kinda thinking about it, and for what i have no idea. Just some thoughts.

I think the new RW fetch should replace Heath. Red is more important to the deck, and so is white in some situations. I always wanna have my basic Plains open for the PTE on some gay moon effect or something. I guess I'm just stating what everyone else is thinking. The manabase seems stronger with the card as well. I'd probably go 4 Foothills, 4 Mesa, 2 Heath. Seems strong as hell.

I really like the new cat creature, but not for Legacy. I see it being pretty good for Extended and Standard though. AKA, formats without Wasteland, Stifle, Daze shenanigans. And idk about you guys, but RGW Zoo seems INSANE this next Extended Season. Pridemage is even more nuts.

[Skeggi]

I really like the new cat creature, but not for Legacy. I see it being pretty good for Extended and Standard though. AKA, formats without Wasteland, Stifle, Daze shenanigans. And idk about you guys, but RGW Zoo seems INSANE this next Extended Season. Pridemage is even more nuts.
By 'the new cat creature' you probably are referring to this one:

Scythe Tiger :g:
Creature - Cat
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a land.

I really like it has Shroud, but when looking for a creature that costs :g:, beats for 3 and has Shroud, Nimble Mongoose is probably the better option.

[mackaber]

Got a few good laughs out of thoughtseizer there, I must say he's rather pathetic.
But anyhow on to something more important: that is the number of fetches. Quite frankly I'm a fetchland extremist. Everyone knows fetches are the best lands ever printed and besides optimizing your mana they give you threshhold and feed hungry lavamancers and or Knights of the Relinquary. My very first thought when seeing the new Mesa is that now I can run 12 awesome fetchlands and my manabase will be almost perfect with 17 red 16 white and 16 green sources and 9 ways to find every single basic land. How's that for consistency ey?

12 fetches
1 mountai
1 plains
1 forest
2 Taiga
2 Plateu
1 Savahna

So yes I've heard it all before fetchlands suck against stifle that's why people don't like to run as many as possible. But regardless of playing 8,10 or 12 fetches the chances that your gonna have to pop one on turns 1 or 2 (when getting stifled really hurts most) are very high so why not just fuck stifle and go for the manabase that offers you the largest amount of redundancy?
Also in decs like thresh the fact that at some point you won't find any more lands to fetch can actually be rather relevant but when playing zoo I must confess I'm not afraid of the situation where I can't find any more lands cause if that's happened my chances of winning have slipped into percentile digits anyways.
While many of you might think to yourself mackaber's talking crap and don't know shit about Magic. I'd like to point out that I'm not the only person on this planet who holds fetches in such high regard. While running more than 8 fetches in legacy is somewhat uncommon (but not unheard of, just go check out DerimaginäreFreunds thresh lists) it's been standard in Extended Boros/Zoo decs for over 3 years to run at least 11 fetches and sometimes even more than 12 even though stifle has been a metagame concern there for quite some time as well albeit no as relevant as in Legacy.

So tell me: why not run 12?

[MMogg]

I always wanna have my basic Plains open for the PTE on some gay moon effect or something. I guess I'm just stating what everyone else is thinking. The manabase seems stronger with the card as well. I'd probably go 4 Foothills, 4 Mesa, 2 Heath. Seems strong as hell.

Disagree a bit. In the case of Moonscrew (that's right, I think I just coined a term for Blood Moon antics), I prefer Windswept Heath since everything will be red afterwards, the Health lets you equally search for the necessary Forest or Plains.



By 'the new cat creature' you probably are referring to this one:

Scythe Tiger :g:
Creature - Cat
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a land.

I really like it has Shroud, but when looking for a creature that costs :g:, beats for 3 and has Shroud, Nimble Mongoose is probably the better option.

Yeah, especially the drawback. Too bad this guy isn't a Goblin:

Scythe Tiger :r:
Creature - Goblin-Cat
Shroud
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a mountain.
His father was a lonely guy as the lone Goblin on a cat ranch.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Disagree a bit. In the case of Moonscrew (that's right, I think I just coined a term for Blood Moon antics), I prefer Windswept Heath since everything will be red afterwards, the Health lets you equally search for the necessary Forest or Plains.
You know what i mean. A bit unnecessary post, kinda like this one, so I'll make it not so.

I don't see why this deck is scared of Dragon Stompy either. I've maimed the deck everytime I've played against it. Chalice sucks but i don't see any other problem cards. Moon can suck if you're on the play and fetch wrong, otherwise, they don't run geddon effects like Stax, and then you fetch your basics. Our creatures are almost always bigger, and Goyf trumps every creature in their deck. Plus Grudge from the board is hilarious.

Anywho, fuck Goyf, and Top. Haha. I'm totally a hater.

[jazzykat]

I think some serious testing needs to be done regarding the manabase. Since I believe most of us at least play 9 fetches that we can all agree that at least 1 of the new RW fetches is necessary. I would also like to remind you guys who are proposing to run 12 fetches along with horizon canopy you will have way more fetches/non-fetchable lands than actual fetchable lands. I wonder if this might become a problem vs. wastelands and stifles?

[mackaber]

I think some serious testing needs to be done regarding the manabase. Since I believe most of us at least play 9 fetches that we can all agree that at least 1 of the new RW fetches is necessary. I would also like to remind you guys who are proposing to run 12 fetches along with horizon canopy you will have way more fetches/non-fetchable lands than actual fetchable lands. I wonder if this might become a problem vs. wastelands and stifles?

Running 12 fetches obv necessitates running no canopys see my last post for an example manabase.

[rancOr_]

I've always played 10fetches in Zoo,and when I played Sligh I even played 12.
With the arrive of the new R/W fetchland,I find it very reasonable to run 12fetchlands,since the only reason I wasnt doing that now was being bloodstained mire not good enough to run more then2.
It helps to filter your deck,it feeds lavamancer,it feeds KotR,it fixes mana,and its in some ways wasteland proof. There is no problem at all with running more fetches then actual lands,because by playing 8-9 non fetchlands u will have more then enough.

Like mackaber alrdy stated,stifle is NOT a reason for not running more fetches. If u play less fetches u can still get stifled,and ur opening yourself to even more wasteland effects,which can really hurt this deck.
Btw,the only real current metagame deck running stifles is TT.

As for Sylvan Lybrary, I've tested it out good and even in some tournaments now,and I must say the results are quite impressive.This deck doesnt really care about its own life total,and against certain MU's,u can draw 1-2 extra cards after they cleared ur board/outtempo'd u. The synergy it has with Lightning Helix is just a big plus.
I think most pple on this thread agreed on this being the best creature base ATM:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer(rly MVP,especially with all the Merfolk in the meta here)
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 KotR

@Skeggi. I'm gonna test Domain Zoo now aswell,since i really like the power of dark confidant/tribal flames,which are for me the only reasons u can find for running that deck above RGW Zoo. Not to mention the deck gets boosted by the new fetchlands.

[mackaber]

"Statistically it is the second best deck?" You have a funny idea of statistics. It's good to look at results from large tournaments, but you shouldn't leap to wacky conclusions based on a tournament from last year.

For the record, Team America is a'ight. It definitely isn't one of the better decks in the format, but I wouldn't describe it as "crappy," either.

Let me rephrase that then: A suboptimal choice to win the World Championships.

Anyways what's up with 12 fetchlands? The only reason I can come up with to play less is that you wan't to play some Canopys.

[Volt]

Anyways what's up with 12 fetchlands? The only reason I can come up with to play less is that you wan't to play some Canopys.

Yes, I'd rather play some Canopies. 8 fetches + 3 Canopies is pretty close to perfect.

[ZaMo]

I played at Moscow Open tournament held on 08/30 and did rather good, losing at top8. I don't know if the tournament has already been processed by the Source's DTB caretakers (no lists spotted on deckcheck yet), so I'll list top8 below.

Here's my list:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
1 Figure of Destiny (tried him instead of 4th Ape, it went perfect, I plan on playing 2 Figures from now on)
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage (should have been 4-of, more on this later)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary (I am still unsure if the deck needs ANY of 3-drops, but anyway, Knights did their job well)

2 Path to Exile (I certainly need more of these)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast (I feel it is the right number)

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath (I know having too few 'actual' lands is risky, but I opted to maximize Knights' impact on the game that day, and Lavamancers didn't mind it, either)
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest (This may sound like a sacrilege, but I don't want to play basic Forests anymore, it hurts more than I thought of)
1 Horizon Canopy (did surprisingly well, I am thinking of second one)
1 Wasteland (I count this as a spell, not land, I'd play 21 lands w/o Wasteland)

3 Krosan Grip
2 Sulfuric Vortex (much to my dismay, I seldom wanted to see these in my hand, should have been something else)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vexing Shusher (I think 3 would cut it)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Volcanic Fallout (took them above Pyroclasms due to instant-speed, and dealing uncounterable damage to the dome doesn't hurt)

On my way to top, I defeated Kithkin (don't laugh, they made it into top eventually), Survival, Ichorid (must have been 'my' day, it is next to unwinnable, but I got lucky with Relics and a Fallout), Merfolk and CounterTop w/white (they say it had Progenitus too, but lucky things again, I haven't seen the hydra), losing to Aggro-Loam (Devastating Dreams). There was an ID, too, but that's irrelevant (although I wouldn't mind playing those Merfolk in 1/4).

Then I lost to our eventual winner, and it all went like this:

1. BR-rogue w/Helm of Obedience
2. Elves w/Progenitus (feat. Survival of the Fittest)
3-4. Merfolk
3-4. UBg Faeries
5-8. Kithkin (you see, Faeries and Kithkin, thought you could escape them?)
5-8. Aggro-Loam
5-8. Survival
5-8. Naya Zoo

Ah, I forgot to add we managed to gather not 20, not 30, but 72 people that day.

The deck looks solid, Knights deserve their two slots, and I see it fit to shift towards more creature-heavy version, cutting Lavamancers for more Figures and Pridemages. I also want 3rd PtE. On the other hand, it would be stupid not to main PoP in our meta, so I am quite perplexed about which way to choose.

I must say I haven't tested Sylvan Library yet, so that's another story. And I'm gonna play 4 Mesas, that's for sure ;-)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I really really like Goblin Guide. I'm definitely going to do some serious testing with him in my Isamaru/singleton FoD spot. He seems insane in a format with low-ish land count. He seems better in RG but he does what Zoo wants him to as well. That's my two cents.

[Skeggi]

Goblin Guide has the same mana cost as Kird Ape, but has a smaller body and a worse drawback. Kird Ape is one of the deck's weakest creatures. Why play Goblin Guide?

[Cenarius]

Because he has haste. The drawback is only small.

[Skeggi]

Oh, that totally changes everything. I missed that.

[jazzykat]

The question regarding Goblin Guide is do we really need to get in 2 extra points?

I'm not really sure. One thing I know for certain if he is on the field and your opponent has a U up, then a brainstorm will most likely become 2/3 of an Ancestral Recall! Ponder on the play makes him less interesting as well. And it may not matter vs. top because the game has gone a few turns anyway and they do have to respond to you dropping dudes.

It seems like it would be great in a burn heavy build, and I lean towards goyf-sligh for this. I feel that zoo has a lot more of a late game especially with the more creature heavy builds and less burn that another land would matter.

I think the majority of us agree that Kird Ape is the weakest creature in most builds so the slot is up for grabs.

[MMogg]

I don't know. I like how Kird Ape can trade blows with a 2/2 and walk away the victor. Ape can also eat small goblins and requires three goblins on the board for Incinerator. He can also handle the new Instigator.

[Manhattan]

Geopede might be a consideration. It's a twodropp that hits for 5 on each fetchland. Though Zoo doesn't care so much for playing land itself.

[MMogg]

Geopede might be a consideration. It's a twodropp that hits for 5 on each fetchland. Though Zoo doesn't care so much for playing land itself.

Meh, turn one fetch, turn two maybe fetch again, cast him, turn three a 1/1. :rolleyes: Or if you are lucky turn two play a non-fetch, turn three fetch, he gets +4/+4, turn four, 1/1. :eyebrow: Overall, not consistent enough and goes against the first rule of successful aggro: stable, consistent beatz.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Note that i would be replacing Isamaru and a singleton FoD for him IF anything. So it's not like I'm cutting Ape, I'd be running him alongside Ape. He at least deserves some sort of testing.

[RogueMTG]

Note that i would be replacing Isamaru and a singleton FoD for him IF anything. So it's not like I'm cutting Ape, I'd be running him alongside Ape. He at least deserves some sort of testing.

Not sure if it's relevant, but Goblin Guide also has the potential to tell you whats on top for battling CB. Not that they couldn't top again. But post-board you can know if they have a 3 CC or not on top for KGrip.

[Koby]

or you know, they could float the land on top in anticipation of the goblin attacking. Good players attack first, then cast spells.

[Micki]

Hello,

I played zoo years ago and with all the new cards arround and after reading this thread, I'm eager to build me a new deck. Since this thread is full of "professionals" it would bee nice to get some help. To begin with here is the list I'm thinking of;

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Horizon Canopy
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Path to Exile
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library

I suppose the list is quite standard so here are the questions/problems;

1. What would be a normal SB today? I would think that Gaddog Teeg and Pithing Needle should be included but what else? I understand that the SB mostly depends on the meta but are there any cards (expesialy new ones) that are autoincluded?
2. The BIG question! I don't have Goyfs yet, what would you people run in that spot if Goyfs would'nt be available? I was thinking of trying Quirion Dryad, would that be totally stupid?
3. Don't have Chain Lightning either, what would you play instead? Rift Bolt or PoP maybe...

The only Legacy decks I've playing the last couple of years are Enchantress and Angel stompy. I will obviously get me some Goyfs and Chains before taking the deck to any bigger tournaments but it would be nice to get some suggestions on what to play until so I can get the feeling of the deck.

Thank You all in advance!

[hungryLIKEALION]

Watchwolf isn't a bad two drop for now. I played Dryad in zoo in a tournament once a long time ago, so depending on the build It's probably playable, but not ideal. Without chains either I'd do a 2-2 split of PoP and either Rift Bolt or Fireblast in a list like yours.

For Sideboard, I like to play the following:

1x Duergar Hedgemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
2x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle

Though the canonist should probably be a 4th teeg and the fallouts should be pyroclasms. So that's a general idea, but you can adjust it for your own metagame.

[TotallySweet]

Coming back to the game I whipped up a zoo deck for GenCon the day before the Legacy Champs using my old Goyf Sligh deck and adding white. I did alright, going 5-3-0 and now I'm hooked on the deck!

Here's my current list:

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
2x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Forest

4x Wild Nacatl
3x Figure of Destiny
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Boggart Ram-Gang
2x Woolly Thoctar

4x Path to Exile
3x Harm's Way
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
2x Price of Progress
3x Oblivion Ring

SB
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Krosan Grip
3x Relic of Progenitus
4x Pyroclasm

First of all I have absolutely fallen in love with Harm's Way. So many fun plays! Kill tapped manlands, win goyf/creature wars, 2 to the face when they attack or I get blocked, kill grim lavamancer and bob with their own burn, etc, etc. Secondly Boggart Ram-Gang has been very successful for me. Wither is quality and people just do not consider haste when making decisions about board position. Thirdly I dropped the ape. He's the worst creature in the deck, which is a tragedy for a 2/3 for 1. So far I've had consistent turn one creatures, but I need more testing to see if I have too few. The two PoP are there for 43 land, which is played in my local meta, and as a "games over right now" card. I switch it to 2x Chain Lit depending on the meta.

Now the problems and my plea for suggestions: O-Ring is amazing and terrible, all at once. It has delt with shit that I could not have delt with main deck and won me games. So many pridemages, grips, etc running around that I feel it's just becoming too much of a liability. It hasn't fucked me yet, but the potential is there for getting two-for-one'd and losing and it always makes me nervous playing it. Secondly Woolly Thoctar has, if memory serves, never swung in the history of playing this deck. I haven't really had trouble playing him, but he just comes into play, looks big, then gets killed. I often win with him still in my hand, unplayed, so that I could use instants or had played a smaller creature x2. So being a removal magnet is the silver lining, I suppose, but there must be better dudes out there for the mana.

I've seen Knight of the Reliquary, but I just can't justify her ability in this deck. She can be big, I get it. On average a 4/4 for 3. Maybe even a 5/5. Having to tap her is counter productive to the aggressive nature of the deck and she just screams 'use a land tool-kit'. Maybe I'm over-thinking this and I should just consider her an easier to cast Woolly Thoctar that thins your deck when she doesn't attack and swings for 8 after 'geddon/dreams. hmm

[jazzykat]

So the Hatfields 1&2ed a tournament in NJ with Zoo w Thoctars instead of KotR. I would really like to know what they are thinking.

[MMogg]

So the Hatfields 1&2ed a tournament in NJ with Zoo w Thoctars instead of KotR. I would really like to know what they are thinking.

Hehe, for all the people (like me) who tried arguing for Thoctar over Knights, this is great news. I find Thoctar is a little more aggressive and less situational. Anyway, I'm not trying to re-open that debate.

Do you have a source on that? Deck lists? I'm quite curious what removal they ran.

[Wargoos]

Do you have a source on that? Deck lists? I'm quite curious what removal they ran.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=379951#post379951
there you go, buddy.

[Skeggi]

That Hatfield list looks very solid. That's exactly how I would run Zoo if I wasn't sold on Dark Confidant :wink:. Well... almost exactly, the 1-of Umezawa's Jitte seems a bit random. But apparently it worked.

[MMogg]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=379951#post379951
there you go, buddy.

Hehe, vielen dank! That shows you how much I'm paying attention.

Perhaps another reason to not run KotR is bad synergy with Lavamancer. With no real "engine" to fuel the mancer, and KotR needing those lands, it's not very good synergy to have choose to either remove or keep lands in your grave.


That Hatfield list looks very solid. That's exactly how I would run Zoo if I wasn't sold on Dark Confidant :wink:. Well... almost exactly, the 1-of Umezawa's Jitte seems a bit random. But apparently it worked.

Meh, I agree with you (regardless of their victories), running a singleton Jitte is useless/too random.

[Skeggi]

I just noticed that list doesn't run any Tarmogoyfs. That amazes me, to say the least :wink:. I would have ran Tarmogoyfs too...

[MMogg]

I just noticed that list doesn't run any Tarmogoyfs. That amazes me, to say the least :wink:. I would have ran Tarmogoyfs too...

Indeed, this deck is built for speed speed speed. The only 2cc is QP, and perhaps because he has two great utilities for the deck. They also run Fireblast. My guess is this deck is meant to attack heavily and burn out the opponent. Tarmo, for all his beef, is a bit slow and everyone will admit, he's vanilla. With Nacatl and QP turn 2, you can swing for 4. On turn two, goyf is just being cast.

[Nihil Credo]

Or, you know, maybe the Hatfields aren't completely stupid and maybe those lists have only 56 cards.

[rancOr_]

Eh,if you look closer u'll notice those lists are 56cards,so obviously they do run goyfs but lists were posted wrong.

Anyway,those list are very close to what I'm playing but they play Chain lighting over helix,something ive been thinking about aswell,especially because Merfolk are so popular right now.
About jitte, I wanna play 2MD(mybe 1with testing),but that requires playing PoP in sideboards,idea's?

[MMogg]

Or, you know, maybe the Hatfields aren't completely stupid and maybe those lists have only 56 cards.

There's a fine line between stupidity and genius. :wink:

[mackaber]

From my testing experiences with Knight I can only agree with playing thoctares over them. The lack of Synergy with Mancer made them far too small to be relevant (meaning smaller than goyfs) and having to pay 3 mana for a dude that needs 2 turns to grow to goyfformat is just too much. Another thing I dislike about the Hatfields list is the 3 fireblasts. With the manabase they are running the second one drawn will be dead far too often. While I agree with the assessment that a singleton Jitte seems random you can really make an argument that with 22 dudes and 21 lands 1 really is the right number.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I don't find the dyssynergy between knight and lavamancer to be a problem, ever. It's easy to remove non-lands for lavamancer, and since a lot of the time you won't even draw a knight, it doesn't matter anyway. Further, Knight has the ability to fuel a lavamancer when the board is stalled if you need a few more points of direct damage.

Lastly, yes, he comes into play as a 4/4 on turn 3. He also comes in as a 6/6 or 7/7 on turn 7, while you're staring down 5/6 goyfs with your 5/4 wooly thoctar. Knight is not for curving out; he is for closing games.

[AngryTroll]

Meh, I agree with you (regardless of their victories), running a singleton Jitte is useless/too random.

One Jitte is probably fine. I'd wager it's probably a lot better than fine. You'll win more games after you topdeck it than you'd win if it was a Kird Ape, for example. I wouldn't run four, and I wouldn't run three. I don't know if I'd run two, one, or none, but one is perfectly reasonable.

[mackaber]

One Jitte is probably fine. I'd wager it's probably a lot better than fine. You'll win more games after you topdeck it than you'd win if it was a Kird Ape, for example. I wouldn't run four, and I wouldn't run three. I don't know if I'd run two, one, or none, but one is perfectly reasonable.

Second the sentiment. This is basically the only reason to play non tutorable one ofs. Cards you never want to draw in multiples which are situational but can win games on their own when drawn in the right situation/matchup. While it's inherently random it can be a rewarding gamble. This is an element that I feel the Japanese reintroduced sucessfully into high level magic in the last few years.

[umbowta]

... running a singleton Jitte is useless/too random. EDH could be an enlightening experience for you. If singleton implied uselessness then EDH decks would do nothing.

[Amon Amarth]

So the Hatfields 1&2ed a tournament in NJ with Zoo w Thoctars instead of KotR. I would really like to know what they are thinking.

KotR also suffers from splash hate from Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer. Woolly Thoctar is also a bit more aggressive too.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

EDH could be an enlightening experience for you. If singleton implied uselessness then EDH decks would do nothing.

You're like the Confucious of Zoo.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

You're like the Confucious of Zoo.

This is like the funniest thing I've heard all damn day.

[MMogg]

EDH could be an enlightening experience for you. If singleton implied uselessness then EDH decks would do nothing.

Then be my guest and run an entirely singleton Zoo deck at the next tournament you go to. Think of the glee you will have when you draw your goyf once every 5-6 match ups! :laugh:

[mackaber]

EDH could be an enlightening experience for you. If singleton implied uselessness then EDH decks would do nothing.

Enter the void...

[rancOr_]

I still prefer KotR,its just bigger when it comes into play,its easier to cast,he can make himself bigger AND cant be REB'd/pyro'd.
I'm testing a singleton jitte,and I must say its not bad at all.
You dont lose anything by running it,and it can win you the game.
Ofc u have to run a 2nd on the side then.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't see why some people have this rabid reaction against running singletons. Lots of Storm combo decks, for example, run one Chain of Vapor. Granted, they can tutor for it, so they have much more chance of seeing it, but I see nothing wrong with splitting your Jittes between the maindeck and the sideboard.

Singletons basically imply that you don't need to see the card in any given game, but you won't be disappointed to draw it, and I think Jitte matches this criteria perfectly, in this deck. You would pretty much have to be already losing the game if you really can't find a creature to equip. That's my $.02

[Jade]

Singletons aren't included because of a part of the game some people do not want to rely on (me thinks): Luck. You can't come up with formula and find out that you'll get the card with 43% in your starting hand (well you can, put it's completely pointless for 1-ofs). Now it's very traceable that you don't want to rely on luck, because your obviously the better player and you want to beat your opponents with consistency, not with luck.

How much consistency do you give up for randomly winning the game?

[rancOr_]

1 jitte MD isnt gonna chance anything at ur consistency.
If you play the list with 22 creatures chances u have a creature when drawing jitte will mostly be quite big. Not being able to draw a 2nd jitte md decreases ur chances aswell of having a useless card.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

An active Jitte just fucking wins games. Non combo games of course, but worst case you can gain life there. People don't realize that. I've compared him to Dark Confidant the entire thread and noone even replies. Once it's active, it's just insane. It helps Zoo against half the format as well. I don't see why you wouldn't run at least 2 maindeck. That's my 2 cents, for the 80th time.

[umbowta]

You're like the Confucious of Zoo.This is like the funniest thing I've heard all damn day.I Lol'ed too. There was even a tear in my eye from it. Thanks Lox.

Seriously though, the Hatfields have baffled/astounded me. I have openly discounted the inclusion of Horizon Canopy and Sylvan Library on many occasions. Now I am forced by the obvious domination of their build (assuming the reported results are accurate) to reevaluate. The one thing that I'm really not wrapping my mind around yet is that sideboard. Choke? I hate that card. Two StP? For what? No yard hate is weird too. It looks like the focus is to shore up against decks like Landstill, Counter/top, and tempo thresh, i.e., decks that can push you into a late game, while abandoning combo entirely. Abandoning combo makes sense to me when it's %5 or less of the meta. The extra Jitte seems to be aimed at Goblins and Merfolk, other aggro in general. I have no choice but to build it exactly and run the DTB Gauntlet.

[mackaber]

2 STPs should be added against anything running 4 Goyfs and imio makes perfect sense.
Could someone put forth a reasonable argument for Choke? To me it seems like a misguided strategy, since by adding a 3*3 mana enchantments to the dec your inevitably moving away from the early mid game strategy and preparing yourself for the lategame. While Choke is an extremely powerful tool here, since it basically sets back your opponent I'm not sure if this warrants inclusion over more versatile cards.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I Lol'ed too. There was even a tear in my eye from it. Thanks Lox.

Seriously though, the Hatfields have baffled/astounded me. I have openly discounted the inclusion of Horizon Canopy and Sylvan Library on many occasions. Now I am forced by the obvious domination of their build (assuming the reported results are accurate) to reevaluate. The one thing that I'm really not wrapping my mind around yet is that sideboard. Choke? I hate that card. Two StP? For what? No yard hate is weird too. It looks like the focus is to shore up against decks like Landstill, Counter/top, and tempo thresh, i.e., decks that can push you into a late game, while abandoning combo entirely. Abandoning combo makes sense to me when it's %5 or less of the meta. The extra Jitte seems to be aimed at Goblins and Merfolk, other aggro in general. I have no choice but to build it exactly and run the DTB Gauntlet.


As far as the Hatfield list, i could give two shits what cards he ran. People need to figure out cards and develop their own lists based on their own testing. It's worth it and it will make you better with the deck and therefor make you a better player. I hate it when people copy/paste lists and run them with no knowledge of the deck.

[Wargoos]

I heard that often a sb card slides into the md because of space reasons.
And Jitte was probably the best md-ing choice when 80% of the meta screamed
"AGGREO"
(wow, that made me hungry for oreos..)

[umbowta]

I hate it when people copy/paste lists and run them with no knowledge of the deck.

Lol. I'll just go ahead and PM one/both of them and ask them to willingly divulge the results of their testing to someone they don't know, me, so that I can have all of that knowledge without doing the work...yeah right.

I know my list like the back of my hand and I run it. However, success merits investigation. I'm gonna need to copy theirs in an attempt to figure out what the heck they're thinking because, dammit anyway, my crystal ball quit working and I can't perform mind melds at all, let alone across state lines.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Lol. I'll just go ahead and PM one/both of them and ask them to willingly divulge the results of their testing to someone they don't know, me, so that I can have all of that knowledge without doing the work...yeah right.

I know my list like the back of my hand and I run it. However, success merits investigation. I'm gonna need to copy theirs in an attempt to figure out what the heck they're thinking because, dammit anyway, my crystal ball quit working and I can't perform mind melds at all, let alone across state lines.

But i thought you were Confucious :frown:

[Kird Ape]

The logic behind the SB is have stronger game 2 and 3 Vs. decks that can be beaten. Zoo doesn't have much chance against Ant except go off and kill them turn 3-4. Why devote the majority of your Sb to such a bad match up. Guys are running multiple teegs and cannonists and chewing up 4-6 Sb slots? What's the point, you're probably gonna lose before you draw or cast them guys.
Choke pretty much handles top so it's awesome and should be run in every deck, mainly cause I hate blue.

[rancOr_]

Yes choke is indeed very good. So is shusher and REB/grip.
I always try to fit those in my sideboard.
But if your meta has quite some combo,u cant just ignore it.
I'd say either u dont spend anything at all in ur sideboard,or u do and board decently. I've been thinking about 4Chalice of the void;2Gaddock Teeg;2 canonist(or 4can/4teeg). What do u think is best? I think chalice is a must have cause u can get alot of 2CC anti-combo elements but they still can go off t1.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Singletons aren't included because of a part of the game some people do not want to rely on (me thinks): Luck. You can't come up with formula and find out that you'll get the card with 43% in your starting hand (well you can, put it's completely pointless for 1-ofs). Now it's very traceable that you don't want to rely on luck, because your obviously the better player and you want to beat your opponents with consistency, not with luck.

How much consistency do you give up for randomly winning the game?

This is really missing the point, which is as simple as this: Zoo doesn't really need Jitte to win the bulk of the games it plays. Sometimes it helps, and usually it's fucking awesome, which is why most people that run it play two copies or so. But including one in the main-deck basically implies that there was some other card he preferred to run in the main instead of the second Jitte. The difference is whether or not you're relying on luck, and in this case, since you're not really relying on Jitte, you're not really relying on luck either.

[mackaber]

Yes choke is indeed very good. So is shusher and REB/grip.
I always try to fit those in my sideboard.
But if your meta has quite some combo,u cant just ignore it.
I'd say either u dont spend anything at all in ur sideboard,or u do and board decently. I've been thinking about 4Chalice of the void;2Gaddock Teeg;2 canonist(or 4can/4teeg). What do u think is best? I think chalice is a must have cause u can get alot of 2CC anti-combo elements but they still can go off t1.

I think trying to beat ANT with Zoo is a gamble. Yet especially Teeg is a fairly versatile SB card so I think dedicating at least a few SB slots to him does not hurt since he hoses a fair number of decs and cards like Chalice and EE which this dec has troubles with.

[jazzykat]

I played vs. tempo thresh morph into dread/stifle, t2 zoo, and survival angry welder this afternoon to a disappointing 1-2 record.

I won the first game vs. tempo thresh and then got surprised by the sideboarding tactic 2nd game. Third game I mulled to 6 on a 1 lander after my 7 only had 1 land. Should I have gone down to 5 on that or have fetched the basic?

I beat t2 zoo in 3. 1 game he pounded me with ridiculously pumped creatures.

Last match, I kept trying to play around titan which he may not have had and I think it was my undoing. I also made a misplay for sure although he could have just fetched up the rest of his army.

I'm very disappointed with my mistakes but I'm a bit disappointed with the deck. I got pwned by stifle+wasteland.

Any suggestions/thoughts.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I played vs. tempo thresh morph into dread/stifle, t2 zoo, and survival angry welder this afternoon to a disappointing 1-2 record.

I won the first game vs. tempo thresh and then got surprised by the sideboarding tactic 2nd game. Third game I mulled to 6 on a 1 lander after my 7 only had 1 land. Should I have gone down to 5 on that or have fetched the basic?

I beat t2 zoo in 3. 1 game he pounded me with ridiculously pumped creatures.

Last match, I kept trying to play around titan which he may not have had and I think it was my undoing. I also made a misplay for sure although he could have just fetched up the rest of his army.

I'm very disappointed with my mistakes but I'm a bit disappointed with the deck. I got pwned by stifle+wasteland.

Any suggestions/thoughts.

How many lands were your running? I run 21 and and usually feel that it's enough. Also, versus Tempo Thresh, it's usually a good idea to hold off on fetching until you can respond to theirs if you have the capability, even if it means missing your 1 drop. You pretty much have inevitability on them, so feel free to take your time.

[CorpT]

Any advice against CounterTop based decks? I played the Hatfield list and never felt like I had a chance against the local CounterTop player. He always had Tops/Balances and of course I never had Pridemage. Even post-board, I couldn't push enough through. Advice?