[Deck] Zoo [Archive] - Page 6

CorpT

09-13-2009, 09:55 PM

I have something like a 10-2-0 record against counterbalance over the last few months, I never really feel like it's that huge a problem. If they get CB online with board advantage you obviously lose, but as long as you play smart you can usually beat them. If you're having a ton of trouble with them, bringing in Shushers from the SB to force down Price of Progress and Tarmogoyfs can be pretty awesome, and if they're running EE, Gaddock Teeg is pretty sweet. Also, KoTR is a lot better than Wooly Thoctar against them, since he gives you a guaranteed way to beat their goyfs in the long game if they manage to stretch it out that far. Sylvan Library is also great against them.

KoTR does sound pretty good. Maybe I'll try that. It just seems like they always get CB/T online against me before I can get started. Maybe I'm just a little frustrated. Got knocked out of contention for FtV:Exiled by the same CounterTop deck that always beats me. Want to crush him :)

What is your typical sideboard strategy for them? What are you taking out and bringing in?

chimchimm

09-13-2009, 10:41 PM

That's weird I generally get excited when I sit down across from CB. Like the first guy to respond to you I also have a very high win % against it. It was mentioned already but I'll say it again sylvan library is steller in this matchup(at least it has been for me). As far as what I bring in against them from the board it's generally just krosan grip.

CorpT

09-13-2009, 10:55 PM

Maybe I just need more practice against it. His version is tweaked pretty heavy, so it might be helping some. MD Rhox War Monks are pretty bad, but it felt like the CB was just locking me out too easily.

What are your lists? Maybe I've strayed too far from norm.

jazzykat

09-14-2009, 01:33 AM

How many lands were your running? I run 21 and and usually feel that it's enough. Also, versus Tempo Thresh, it's usually a good idea to hold off on fetching until you can respond to theirs if you have the capability, even if it means missing your 1 drop. You pretty much have inevitability on them, so feel free to take your time.

I was playing 21 lands playing a list very similar to the new Hatfield's. I gambled and was greedy on game 3 because after openining 7 was a 1 lander and my 6 was a 1 lander I wasn't feeling to good about my chances at 5.

The problem is that he morphed into a dreadnaught package and I didn't have any time to win. I had sided in 3 grips. I felt the need to create real pressure on him in case I saw the dreadnaught and not the sb cards. Which is what happened in games 2/3.

chokin

09-15-2009, 02:45 AM

I was really iffy when it came to KotR until I actually played him. He was literally THE "KILL IT WIRE FIRE" target. This allowed my smaller guys to get a little extra distance because my opponents were too scared of my KotR.

I just revamped my list to have a 21/22/21 Land Creature Spell list. I don't run Sylvan Library (don't own any) or Price of Progress (don't own any) so I added extra burn and Jitte.

What should the last burn slots be? Magma Jet, Lightning Helix or Chain Lightning? I like CL because it buffs Goyf, is cheap, and hits for 3. The life gain is cute, but probably not worth it. I like Jet because of the filter effect from scry.

Volt

09-15-2009, 02:54 AM

What should the last burn slots be? Magma Jet, Lightning Helix or Chain Lightning? I like CL because it buffs Goyf, is cheap, and hits for 3. The life gain is cute, but probably not worth it. I like Jet because of the filter effect from scry.

CL is generally better, although LH will give you an edge in the mirror match. Forget Magma Jet.

Valtrix

09-15-2009, 09:02 AM

I just revamped my list to have a 21/22/21 Land Creature Spell list. I don't run Sylvan Library (don't own any) or Price of Progress (don't own any) so I added extra burn and Jitte.

What should the last burn slots be? Magma Jet, Lightning Helix or Chain Lightning? I like CL because it buffs Goyf, is cheap, and hits for 3. The life gain is cute, but probably not worth it. I like Jet because of the filter effect from scry.

You run 64 cards? Maybe those last 4 burn slots should be just no burn? Also, magma jet is not good enough to be run in my opinion. As somebody put it better earlier, we don't need overcosted burn with a poor card quality effect attached. I mostly agree with the above as well, but I think CL and Helix are roughly even, depending on the meta and how you like to play. Helix definitely gets the nod if you're playing library though or expect red or other aggro. For reference though, most people do end up playing helix.

Happy Gilmore

09-15-2009, 10:56 AM

Any advice against CounterTop based decks? I played the Hatfield list and never felt like I had a chance against the local CounterTop player. He always had Tops/Balances and of course I never had Pridemage. Even post-board, I couldn't push enough through. Advice?

You played a Sb with 2 shusher, 3 grip, 3 pop, 2 choke, 2 reb and didn't feel that you could beat Counter Top?

I just revamped my list to have a 21/22/21 Land Creature Spell list. I don't run Sylvan Library (don't own any) or Price of Progress (don't own any) so I added extra burn and Jitte.

This is the DTB forum, it is assumed that you have all the cards necessary. We are not here to discuss suboptimal lists, just the best one possible. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I can't see how this discussion benefits anyone.

RE: sideboard

As stated, ANT is to far ahead to be worth sideboarding 7+ slots to beat it. Graveyard based decks like 43 land, Ichorid, and LFTL decks are a different story. I'm not 100% sure what would be cut for a set of Crypts but I think your looking at possibly dropping the 2 choke, along with 1-2 others in order to help with these matchup. Boarding for these decks require a lot less work to bring into your favor, or at least even the odds.

CorpT

09-15-2009, 12:07 PM

You played a Sb with 2 shusher, 3 grip, 3 pop, 2 choke, 2 reb and didn't feel that you could beat Counter Top?

So what should I take out for all of this? I didn't bring in PoP because he plays a mostly basic version (by choice, he has the duals).

chimchimm

09-15-2009, 01:27 PM

A little late on this reply but my burn package includes

4xLB/4xCL/2xPoP/2xFireblast

Also you say you don't have sylvan library. imo this is one of my favorite cards to have against this matchup.

keys

09-15-2009, 04:22 PM

B is for Big Job

09-15-2009, 04:42 PM

It dies to lava dart and requires you to make a land drop each turn to make it effective. Its a good concept but not for this deck.

Happy Gilmore

09-15-2009, 05:04 PM

It dies to lava dart and requires you to make a land drop each turn to make it effective. Its a good concept but not for this deck.

Wow, I havn't heard an arguement about that for over 4 years. Lava Dart? since when has that ever been played? Hell, I havn't seen it since 1.5 changed over to Legacy.

So what should I take out for all of this? I didn't bring in PoP because he plays a mostly basic version (by choice, he has the duals).

-2 Kird Ape
-3 Chain Lightning
-4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Vexing Shusher
+3 Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Reb

You can also bring in 2x Swords as well, and what you would take out depends on the decks makeup. If you have to bring in PoP, your looking at a difficult decision, Fireblast is a good card against them, but you can consider cutting some number for PoPs out of the board.

TotallySweet

09-15-2009, 05:06 PM

I'm pretty sure 'dies to lava dart' is a figure of speech. As in: dies to anything since it has 1 toughness.

Happy Gilmore

09-15-2009, 05:13 PM

I'm pretty sure 'dies to lava dart' is a figure of speech. As in: dies to anything since it has 1 toughness.

Cards like Kird Ape die to most everything as well, or at least most creatures and removal spells comonly played in legacy.

I agree that it doesn't belong, however the arguement is flawed. All that needs to be said is that it is a conditional threat and a very mediocre top deck.

TotallySweet

09-15-2009, 05:20 PM

Point taken, but you're talking to a heathen who doesn't run kird apes. It's kinda sad that a 2/3 for 1 is the worst creature in the deck. :O

CorpT

09-15-2009, 07:35 PM

-2 Kird Ape
-3 Chain Lightning
-4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Vexing Shusher
+3 Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Reb

You can also bring in 2x Swords as well, and what you would take out depends on the decks makeup. If you have to bring in PoP, your looking at a difficult decision, Fireblast is a good card against them, but you can consider cutting some number for PoPs out of the board.

That seems better than what I was doing. I think I would like the Swords in because he plays a lot of creatures that are problematic. In my meta, I'm not sure PoP is that great. The Counter/Top deck plays a ton of basics and most of the other decks I could use it for don't seem to require it.

Thanks though.

Valtrix

09-15-2009, 08:41 PM

Steppe Lynx

Creature - Cat
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, Steppe Lynx gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
0/1

Turn 2 play a fetch and a Pridemage, attack for 5?

I'm guessing it's too random.

Completely worthless. With one bonus it's only a kird ape, and to get two in one turn you must have a fetch. In short, he'll usually be as good or worse (completely useless) compared to kird ape, so I don't see him being useful.

JustCurious

09-15-2009, 09:40 PM

I agree that it doesn't belong, however the arguement is flawed. All that needs to be said is that it is a conditional threat and a very mediocre top deck.

However almost all of our creature threats are 'conditional'. Nacatl requires some land manipulation, Goyf needs a full yard, Lavamancer needs something in the yard, etc. etc. The question is whether or not this particular condition is too rigid. On the one hand, it requires a land drop each turn, which runs against the mana-light philosophy of Zoo (insert Horizon Canopy discussion here). On the other hand, we're running a high density of fetches, perhaps even more so with the new R/W fetch, meaning that most of the land drops are going to = +4/+4.

I'm not sold on this guy, but I think he's worth looking into a bit closer.

Valtrix

09-15-2009, 10:08 PM

Correction. SOME landdrops are going to be +4/+4. I'd say at most people are running 10 fetches. That means that occasionally this guy will be a 4/5. Otherwise he'll be a 2/3 with a regular land drop, or just nothing with no land drops. Now, we have to ask ourselves if the times when he's a 4/5 is going to outweigh the times that he'll be a 0/1. In my opinion? He's going to be a 0/1 way more than a 4/5. It's simple math. You have 10% fetches or you have about 40/60 or 66% nonlands.

In short, this guy is roughly:
2/3 a 0/1
1/6 a 2/3
1/6 a 4/5
Average of 1/2
With no advantages on defense. I don't think we need to consider him with those numbers.

LegacyFTW

09-15-2009, 10:08 PM

Don't forget KotR. He can possibly be an 8/9 if you play a fetch then search for a fetch ;).

iamajellydonut

09-16-2009, 02:54 PM

While I agree that the Lynx is dead in WGR Zoo due to inconsistent land drops, it could have fun in 4 color. Splash for Confidant and that should give the boost needed.

umbowta

09-16-2009, 04:19 PM

...or we could just, like, add Ghost Town and be like, +2+2 every turn. Whoa!

Raptor

09-17-2009, 10:06 PM

hello guys,
I've been interested by this deck. But I was wondering about some play, which I didn't know how I would handle it, and that's why I'm telling you.

I've mostly having hard decisions to take while fetching.
Exemple ;
If I have Windswepth Heat + taiga in hand, and I have like quasali Pridemage, wild nacatl and some burn.

How would you play your land if you are on the draw vs :
A deck with wasteland as his only mana denial
A canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
An unkown deck

And how would you play your hand on the play vs the same guys.

I've always difficutlies choosing what to fetch.

umbowta

09-17-2009, 10:29 PM

A deck with wasteland as his only mana denial
Is the Waste in play? I'd play the Taiga and force his/her decision. You can fetch up Plateau and smack for three if the Taiga gets wasted. Keep in mind that you're seeing 2 more cards before then anyway so you're probability of pulling another land is good.

A canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. Lead with the Taiga. Stifle gains them more tempo than Waste and they prolly opened with a Fetch or a blue source.

An unknown deckDid they miss their land drop or did you fail to figure it out? Either way I'd lead with Taiga.

And how would you play your hand on the play vs the same guys.
Fetch out Savannah and drop the cat. You're broadcasting the fact that you have access to red but that's fine. You're on the play and in the drivers seat.

TotallySweet

09-17-2009, 10:40 PM

Edit: This is assuming it's your first turn.

On the draw:
vs wasteland in play: recklessly play taiga then nacatl. waste is some tempo loss and boots on the ground get to turn sideways.
vs wasteland in deck: taiga, play nacatl. If they drop a waste and pop it, I have a draw and a fetch to decide what to get.
vs canadian thresh w/ waste in play: fetch forest, play nacatl.
vs canadian thresh w/ dual in play: taiga, pass turn. Don't wanna walk into a daze, nor get a fetch stifled. Next turn it'll be stifled, though. And the Nacatl will get bolted. Regardless, the tempo thresh guy will draw everything he ever needs against you while wearing a shit-eating grin and mumbling about how luck he is after every draw step. He will see 3 goyfs per game and he will cast more bolts than you do, somehow. (I'm not bitter)
unknown deck: taiga, nacatl.

On the play:
I agree with Umbowta. Fetch savannah, play kitty.

Good question! got the 'old gears turnin'.

lordofthepit

09-18-2009, 04:26 AM

Lotus Cobra has been way too overhyped, but can it possibly fit in some Zoo decks?

I don't think it's a gamebreaker, but as I've said, I'm not really happy with the creatures available to RGW Zoo beyond Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Qasali Pridemage, and to a lesser extent, Grim Lavamancer. I think Cobra can possibly fit in as a slightly weaker creature and enable Zoo to move into other options.

Consider the following:
- With Lotus Cobra (and possibly a few optional Knights of the Reliquary to increase synergy), you can start playing Figure of Destiny and reliably pump it to 4/4 almost every game (and even 8/8 reasonably frequently in longer games).
- It would also allow you to splash black for Dark Confidant, as many people have, while not being totally screwed over when your Badlands or Bayou gets Wasted. And of course, the card advantage from Dark Confidant would allow you to do something with the mana you produce from the Cobra.
- On that note, you're more resilient to Wasteland effects as well as Blood Moon or Back to Basics, if nothing else.
- Because Cobra *might* make FoD and Confidant viable, you'd have higher creature density than normal. This means you can more reliably run Jitte (which I generally have not used in Zoo to date), and with Cobra, you'd have the mana to keep the Jitte active very easily.

None of these are especially compelling reasons by themselves to play Cobra, but you don't really have to change the deck significantly to take advantage of the snake. If your Cobra doesn't land on the board, you still have a bunch of cheap beaters. If he becomes a lightning rod for removal, that means your opponent isn't hitting your Goyfs, Pridemages, or Confidants, plus you can always time it so that you get a Landfall trigger or two out of your Cobra (by not passing priority).

If you're looking for the next Goyf or Pridemage, sure, the Cobra doesn't live up to the comparison. But if you're just looking for creatures #17-20 (arguably #13-16), I'd definitely much rather play him than Kird Ape.

umbowta

09-18-2009, 10:56 AM

Lotus Cobra has been way too overhyped, but can it possibly fit in some Zoo decks?

No

Overhyped? Really? I might be willing to trade you the Mesa Enchantress I just pulled out of an M10 pack for one...

Valtrix

09-18-2009, 11:03 AM

I think he means overhyped for use in legacy, but not necessarily in general. I think a lot of people were expecting a better legacy card.

I think a good comparison for this guy is Aether vial, which most people don't run anyway, which tells us that we probably don't need mana cheating much (even on a 2/1). Now, you'd think that lotus cobra helps you against wastes and such, but it really doesn't. Why? Well, first you need to get to 2 land first, which getting wasted first turn is one of the most devastating things for us. Wastes late game don't hurt us that much since we have plenty lands/have been able to get basics. The next thing is that this guy only is useful when we start to have 3 lands. Wait a second. Do we really need help if we're at three lands? Probably not, since everything is so cheap. Yeah, that extra one/two mana could be a pretty nice boost on turn 3, but that's assuming we can make that landdrop. I'd say there's plenty of games that that's not the case. And then, when we do get on three mana, an extra 1/2 mana is not going to help us much at that point because our curve is so low. Same thing for 4 mana, only the issue is exaggerated. The extra mana for jitte/figure is not a huge consideration in my opinion, because this card only makes them marginally better, and they're already (pretty) good, so it's not really necessary.

Now, that was just taking into account the mana acceleration. So, if we looked at it solely for that, we wouldn't want to play it. We likewise don't need it for the fixing, since if we're on three mana we could have probably fetched for anything we needed, even if we have 4c. So, if we don't need that, we're left with a 2/1 for :1::g:, which seems too inefficient for us.

crow_mw

09-18-2009, 11:32 AM

While stp vs pte was already thoughtfully discussed in this thread (and neither of the cards turned out to be strictly better than the other) I wonder about your thoughts on one more issue, that hasn't been widely covered - targeting your own critters.

In a pitch you can use stp as a lifegain tool, while pte can be used as land tutor tool. In order to be efficient stp must be used on a big guy (which often will mean goyf only), while pte can work even on 1/1 kird ape. Both can be used in response to spot removal and when we are chump blocking (too bad damage no longer goes on stack). It also makes both cards not totally dead against creatureless decks.

Is any of those plays occasionally important or are those just tricks which will never turn the tide of battle for you?

e=mc^2

09-18-2009, 12:29 PM

Jaynel

09-18-2009, 12:34 PM

I have a question for those of you who run sylvan Library. Are you guys using it like a pseudo top, or do you guys pay 4-8 life per draw step to get extra cards? Also does the Library favor a more burn heavy deck so that you can dump all of your extra cards at once ftw?

It really depends on the matchup. Obviously against most aggro it's just a Mirri's Guile, but against control it can turn into an Ancestral Recall.

Raptor

09-18-2009, 12:45 PM

Is the Waste in play? I'd play the Taiga and force his/her decision. You can fetch up Plateau and smack for three if the Taiga gets wasted. Keep in mind that you're seeing 2 more cards before then anyway so you're probability of pulling another land is good.

Lead with the Taiga. Stifle gains them more tempo than Waste and they prolly opened with a Fetch or a blue source.
Did they miss their land drop or did you fail to figure it out? Either way I'd lead with Taiga.

Fetch out Savannah and drop the cat. You're broadcasting the fact that you have access to red but that's fine. You're on the play and in the drivers seat.

Thanks for the information, I’ve found that fetching good land is one of the hardest decision for a zoo to take.
But if we’re on the play and we know that he plays Can ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. Would you still put Taiga first ? I mean, if you get stifle’d on the fetchland and wasteland your taiga, you’re almost sure to be dead. With all the cantrips that he has, it’s not THAT hard to have both.

Edit: This is assuming it's your first turn.

On the draw:
vs wasteland in play: recklessly play taiga then nacatl. waste is some tempo loss and boots on the ground get to turn sideways.
vs wasteland in deck: taiga, play nacatl. If they drop a waste and pop it, I have a draw and a fetch to decide what to get.
vs canadian thresh w/ waste in play: fetch forest, play nacatl.
vs canadian thresh w/ dual in play: taiga, pass turn. Don't wanna walk into a daze, nor get a fetch stifled. Next turn it'll be stifled, though. And the Nacatl will get bolted. Regardless, the tempo thresh guy will draw everything he ever needs against you while wearing a shit-eating grin and mumbling about how luck he is after every draw step. He will see 3 goyfs per game and he will cast more bolts than you do, somehow. (I'm not bitter)
unknown deck: taiga, nacatl.

On the play:
I agree with Umbowta. Fetch savannah, play kitty.

Good question! got the 'old gears turnin'.

Thanks for the answer too !
I think I would do the same decisions as you did except vs Can ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh with dual in play. I mean, I don’t think walking into a daze is really that important here, considering that they loose a good amount of tempo there with their island to their hand. I think that you are most likely going to have some mana problems in this match up, so he will probally be able to daze anything because we won’t have the time to play around it. So if they want to daze my nacatl, I think it would not be a great decision of them. I think the decision is freaking hard to do, I would probally taiga and play Nacatl, and fetch on the second turn, except if they are tap’d out.
With the same hand, vs Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and you are on the draw. If you do Taiga -> nacatl first turn and he misses his second land drop, and you don’t draw any other land. You drew like 2cc card, would you try to fetch right away or wait till he is tapped out to fetch ?
And another situation for you guys, vs and unknown deck where you don’t have 1cc creature in your hand (like Tarmogoyf, Quasali, Thoctar, Burns and Taiga, wooded foothills, on the play. Would you just fetch for a basic mountain or would you play taiga, so you’re most likely to put a Turn 2 goyf ?
By the way, I laughed at your comment about canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, which is kind of true ^^. The thing that is ironic is that I was debating weither to choose canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or zoo for m y next tournament.

rancOr_

09-18-2009, 12:59 PM

Sylvan library is sick,its really THAT good.
U should test it if u havent yet. Depending on the MU's,but against some decks like landsstill or just when u have enough life,taking 1-2 extra cards is so nice,regardless of the life which shouldnt matter. If you play helix(which I do) u can be a bit more agressive on the card drawing.
I run 4LB,3 CL,3L.Helix,2 fireblast as burn and it works out just fine for me.

TotallySweet

09-18-2009, 01:35 PM

With the same hand, vs Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and you are on the draw. If you do Taiga -> nacatl first turn and he misses his second land drop, and you don’t draw any other land. You drew like 2cc card, would you try to fetch right away or wait till he is tapped out to fetch ?

If his one land is a volcanic, swing for 2 and see if he bolts it. If he does, play and crack the fetch. If he doesn't, play fetch, don't break it. By not cracking it right away you force him to decide to
A: brainstorm at eot to find his second land and let me get a land off my fetch since he won't have mana for stifle.
B: not brainstorm to keep stifle mana open and risk being stuck at one land by topdecking rather than digging 3 deep.
Now he could not have stifle or brainstorm or whatever, but ya kinda have to play like they do.

If his one land is a tropical, I'll play a fetch, crack it for a plains, see if it gets stifled, swing for 3 (or 2 if stifle) and keep my mana open, just turning sideways for 3 till I draw a third land or he draws a second. Can thresh has a shitty lategame so if you can survive turns 1-4 with all 3 colors in tact (not easy to do), you've basically won as zoo.

And another situation for you guys, vs and unknown deck where you don’t have 1cc creature in your hand (like Tarmogoyf, Quasali, Thoctar, Burns and Taiga, wooded foothills, on the play. Would you just fetch for a basic mountain or would you play taiga, so you’re most likely to put a Turn 2 goyf?

On the play I'd fetch for a plateau, pass turn. My deck has more white than most zoo, though.

hungryLIKEALION

09-18-2009, 05:52 PM

I've played against Canadian Thresh a lot, and I fully believe Zoo has the inevitability in this matchup. If they don't fuck up your mana development, you're going to win simply because you have enough removal to kill their goyfs and enough blockers to beat down their mongeese, and at that point you win. So if they tempo you out, they win, but otherwise, you have inevitability. Therefore, against tempo thresh, I like to play it as cautiously as possible. If they lead on a wasteland, I will often fetch a basic, since you know you'll have that basic for the rest of the game, even if it's not the optimal color. If they lead on a dual, if I have a dual or basic in hand I lead on that and run the 1 drop out there. If I only have a fetch, I just don't crack it. See if they brainstorm eot. After all, since we have inevitability, forcing them to waste their t1 mana is an acceptable play imo. If they do brainstorm, then you crack your fetch and possibly throw a bolt down if you want to. I often will to see if I can get a bad player to daze it. (you'd be surprised how often that happens...)

If they don't use that mana, you nod in silent victory as they've now wasted a turn of tempo. If they then play their turn 2 with mana open, you make your second land drop and play the nacatl. See if they cast something. If they still have U open at the end of your second turn, you again pass without having cracked the fetch. If they brainstorm now, which if they haven't yet they probably will, you crack the fetch. If not, you wait until the end of their third turn. If at the end of their third turn, they still have U up, you go ahead and crack the fetch, whether you've drawn a third land or not. If you're running a 21 land list like most of the people playing zoo have been lately, then you have a good chance of drawing a third land by your 4th draw.

I hope that all made sense.

Edit//Also, with library, I draw a LOT of cards off of library. Against control decks with no burn, I don't even blink an eye about drawing myself down to 4 life. Against aggro decks, I'll draw whenever my life is above 15ish if there's a card I need, and I will almost always, no matter what I'm playing against, pay the 4 life to draw a lightning helix.

Playing more and more really teaches you how to play best. People who think Zoo is just playing burn and turning creatures sideways have not truly figured out how the deck works.

Citrus-God

09-20-2009, 04:51 AM

I was revising my old RG Heezey Beatz, so I decided to throw in White. The deck's match ups are even better against decks like Merfolk, Goblins, CounterTop Thresh, Canadian Thresh, Landstill and such. Basically, I thrash every deck but the mirror and Combo. Against the mirror, it's only 50/50, still. Against combo... well, you're suppose to lose to combo, but moreso this build. Also, Counterbalance is still running around. It sucks when you're facing Counterbalance pre-board and all you have in your hand are 2c creatures and some burn. Maindeck Shushers in addition to Pridemages should definitely help prevent this problem. I'm running 6 right now so that I can combat Counterbalances, because decks like Landstill are running them at the moment too. The best way to beat decks with Counterbalance is to bypass it or prevent it, because either way, I'm forcing damage through.

Another reason why this build is sweet is because I can keep just about any hand, and I will have a solid opening hand, whereas with actual Zoo, you tend to mull hands consisting of burn, removal and lands. This deck is all lands and creatures... well, with the exception of 10 cards, really.

This deck plays a lot like Heezey Beatz in T2, obviously. You drop some amount of dudes, and you beat. I even splashed for white for Nacatl, Pridemage, and Soltari Priest. Evasion is huge in this deck, and Soltari Priest and River Boa have been doing their jobs very well. Also, decks will board Firesprouts against you, and Soltari Priests and River Boas survive Firesprout sweeps.

// Mana 22
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

// Creatures 28
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 River Boa
3 Soltari Priest
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Woolly Thoctar

// Spells 10
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress
3 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard 15
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Ajani Vengeant
3 Krosan Grip

Every card should be self-explanatory, except the Sideboard. Path to Exile is there to remove blockers, which easily fixed a problem from the previous RG build which had Franzied Goblin in the maindeck for this very reason. If I can remove a blocker that is slowing me down, I can push every ounce of damage I can force through. Sylvan Library is there so I can outdraw control and mobilize my board so I can win the combat race. PoP is in the maindeck because this deck is very aggressive. I usually push the most damage through, so I tend to use PoP for about 6-8 damage and just win.

The Sideboard is very interesting because my plan against those Counterbalance or Control decks is to board in all 8 copies of my REBs in an attempt to slow them down. Counter cantrips, Standstills, Cunning Wishes, Counterbalances... anything: just slow down them enough for a stupid Kird Ape and a River Boa squeeze in 20 damage. Also, REBs are insanity against Merfolk.

I don't run Grim Lavamancer because it's a bad blocker. River Boa is in this slot instead, because it's hypothetically unblockable and is a damn good blocker. Grim Lavamancer can remove creatures in play, but the only creatures it can remove are those in Merfolk. However, I'm still testing this build. I might bring Lavamancer back in because it burns opposing Lavamancers, Pridemages, and such.

I initially wanted 4 Jittes in the sideboard for the Zoo mirror, but they will not only bring their own Jittes in, but they will also have Pridemages and removal for your guys. Thankfully, you have cards like Priest and River Boa, but I feel as if that having your own Jitte for a turn or two isnt enough to swing the game around; I need an indirect way to combat Jitte and not lose my Jitte to opposing Jittes or Pridemages. Enter Ajani. Both Ajanis are really good for this deck. Ajani Goldmane is good because this deck always has a lot of creatures in play, and when I have a lot of creatures, I want them backed up. Also, Ajani nets me life so that I dont have to leave as many blockers back to defend myself. Ajani Vengeant is good because it taps a creature down (esp one I dont want blocking me and taking down one of my better creatures), and it Helixes as well. This is not only good for gaining life, but also racing and removing blockers.

mackaber

09-20-2009, 07:33 AM

4 Soltari Priest

Ouch, that really hurts the eye. 15 white sources and soltari priest don't mesh.

from Cairo

09-20-2009, 10:51 AM

Citrus-God

09-20-2009, 02:40 PM

Also the curve seems really unpleasant.

12 1cc cards
25 2cc cards
3 3cc cards

Add to this the fact that River Boa needs regen mana, and that you're only running 20 land, it just seems like too top heavy of a curve, most lists run a closer split between 1 and 2 cc cards.

I don't think it's that much of a deal, especially when you land a Sylvan Library. If anything, I always get mana flooded. However, I should be cutting a card or two for more lands. Thinking of cutting a River Boa and a Soltari Priest for another Horizon Canopy and another fetchland.

Ouch, that really hurts the eye. 15 white sources and soltari priest don't mesh.

17 white sources.

9 Fetchlands
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains

Svenyboy

09-20-2009, 03:49 PM

Hello at all,

today Jens K. won the Legacy tournament in Hassloch with this Build XD

Creature:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Woolly Thoctar
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus

Instant:
4 Lightning Helix
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

Sorcery:
3 Natural Order

Planeswalker:
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

Land:
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Treetop Village

I don't know the Board, i think tormod's crypt with another randooom cards :D
This build shows me that Legacy is random and nobody in Hasssloch can play his build xDD
Jens is a good player and know how to play magic. And Hassloch isn't a small tournament the second biggest tournament in Germany after Iserlohn.

greets

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-20-2009, 03:54 PM

*List*

Planeswalkers and Natural Order, wtf? ...Interesting list. Not so sure about Garruk and Ajani though...

Svenyboy

09-20-2009, 04:16 PM

You have with this build always the bigger threats like your oppenet. Ajani is a lightning helix with special combos, very funny. Garruk does 3/3 Beasts, thats solid.

Furthermore you sacrifice your bird or hierarch for progenitus and the game is over. The game against Countertop was very funny, too.
Jens: Ajani
Player 2: Player is looking in Top, ok reslovt.
Jens: Garruk
Player 2: Ok, player is looking in the top, resolvt XD

The only build to win this deck was Ichorid and Fastcombo. No chance with this cc4 build.

mackaber

09-21-2009, 06:42 AM

17 white sources.

9 Fetchlands
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains

Now were talking. Since your running 22 lands and not the listed 20 your list is actually 62 cards. You really want to make me suffer don't you?

Citrus-God

09-21-2009, 08:40 AM

Now were talking. Since your running 22 lands and not the listed 20 your list is actually 62 cards. You really want to make me suffer don't you?

My list is 60 cards, and I'm running 20 lands. I also said I might cut a Boa and a Priest for two more lands (which I probably will). So dont consider suicide. :)

hungryLIKEALION

09-21-2009, 10:30 AM

Bitchtoken, that deck is not zoo. I'm not saying it's bad, but it is definitely not a zoo deck.

Citrus God, if you're going to play a deck entirely made of two drops and no burn, you'd be much better off just playing white weenie so that you have a waste-proof mana base. But once again, that list has hardly anything to do with zoo. Just playing tarmogoyfs and being RGW does not make something zoo, and does not making something appropriate for this thread.

yugular

09-21-2009, 11:46 AM

mackaber

09-21-2009, 01:55 PM

My list is 60 cards, and I'm running 20 lands. I also said I might cut a Boa and a Priest for two more lands (which I probably will). So dont consider suicide. :)

I'm not quite that far yet. Luckily RL keeps me happy. You on the other hand should either edit your declist or check out Math101 they might have a few tricks up their sleeve for you like 22+30+10=62 ;).

Jugglin

09-21-2009, 03:31 PM

I saw a card like this in mtgsalvation spoiler:

Summoning Trap 4gg

Instant - Trap
If a creature you cast this turn was put countered by a spell or ability an opponent controlled, you may pay 0 rather then pay Summoning Trap's casting cost.
Look at the top 7 cards of your library. You may put a creature card from among them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Don't know if its real but could this be a sb card for zoo? I know people keep countering our Tarmogoyfs and other creatures so maybe this has potential?

I fear that card is a bit too situational for it's own good.
It sure is a nice trick, but wouldn't you rather have Vexing Shusher which is also a beater on it's own of just Red Elemental Blast which can also destroy annoying cards in play like Back to Basics and Propaganda.
Plus it's a horrible topdeck late game where Zoo really needs a threat in order to push the last points of damage through.

Citrus-God

09-21-2009, 11:09 PM

I'm not quite that far yet. Luckily RL keeps me happy. You on the other hand should either edit your declist or check out Math101 they might have a few tricks up their sleeve for you like 22+30+10=62 ;).

Ahh... you're right... I do have 62 cards. Nvm, but yeah... cut a Priest and a Boa.

@hungryLIKEALION: White weenie has shitty creatures... like seriously.

Jayzonious

09-22-2009, 12:35 AM

I had a question on the recent 1st place zoo deck's sideboard. What matchups would you bring STP in, and what would it replace? If anyone could answer this for me that would be great.

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Price Of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords To Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Loxodon Baileyarch

09-22-2009, 12:48 AM

I had a question on the recent 1st place zoo deck's sideboard. What matchups would you bring STP in, and what would it replace? If anyone could answer this for me that would be great.

Probably some 3 damage spell. And against aggro, or decks with more Goyf-like creatures, AKA Tombstalker, Dreadnaught, Spiritmonger, Coatl, KoR, Terravore, etc.

hungryLIKEALION

09-22-2009, 12:50 AM

They're for decks with opposing tarmogoyfs, and I'm prety sure you side out two chain lightnings for them, but I can't say that for sure since my list is different.

Loxodon Baileyarch

09-22-2009, 01:08 AM

I'm saying this for the lolz, but,

Hatfield's recent list ran Thoctar over KoR, so i mean shouldn't the Hatfield worshipers make the same change as well!?

LOLOLOLOLOL.

But seriously, either card is good in that slot in my opinion.

Svenyboy

09-22-2009, 09:15 AM

That's my Zoo for Legacy:

Creature:
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
4 Path to Exile

Enchantment:
2 Sylvan Library

Land:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

I don't like Grim Lavamancer. No synergie with Knight of the Reliquary, needs to much Mana, not enough spells for him.
3 Fireblast because I want see 1 of them.
Library splash with Jet.
Arid Mesa for R new Fetchie but it doesn't matter Heath or Mesa.

Any comments? To much duals?

Obfuscate Freely

09-22-2009, 10:36 AM

I had a question on the recent 1st place zoo deck's sideboard. What matchups would you bring STP in, and what would it replace? If anyone could answer this for me that would be great.

*decklist*

Hey, Alix Hatfield here. There have been several questions about my sideboard in this thread, so I suppose I should address them. I have been very happy with my sideboard; I have hardly changed it, tournament to tournament, for several months.

The Swords to Plowshares ended up in there after a testing session against Goyf Sligh, a slightly unfavorable matchup that has become pretty common in the Northeast. Not that Swords is the best card we can bring in for that matchup (I really wanted to play Honorable Passage, actually), but it is the best card we could come up with that also has applications in the mirror, and in other matchups. Actually, Swords is one of the most versatile cards in the board. I bring them in not only for Goyf Sligh and the mirror, but also against Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, Goblins, Ichorid, Eva Green, and any other matchup in which the opponent might try to put me on the defensive with fatties before I can get him into burn range. This means I'll even bring the card in against CounterTop decks, if they have fatties other than Tarmogoyf to threaten me with.

As far as what STP replaces, that's kind of hard to say. I think it's a lot more useful for me to just post a rough sideboarding guide:

CounterTop
-3 Chain Lightning
-3 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Plains
-1-4 Lightning Bolt

+3 Krosan Grip
+3 Price of Progress
+2 Vexing Shusher
+2 Choke
+0-3 Red Elemental Blast/Swords to Plowshares (depends on the build of CounterTop)

Merfolk
-3 Fireblast
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-2 Sylvan Library

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Choke (on the play)
+2 Vexing Shusher (on the draw)

Goyf Sligh
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Woolly Thoctar

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Zoo
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Plains

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Canadian Threshold
-3 Fireblast
-3 Chain Lightning
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+3 Price of Progress
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Choke (on the play)
+2 Vexing Shusher (on the draw)

Goblins
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Woolly Thoctar

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Ichorid
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Plains

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

This is an approximation of how I've been boarding the deck. You do have to alter the plans slightly to account for variance between your opponent's decklists. Price of Progress ends up coming in somewhat more often than this would suggest, since I'll happily find room for it against four-/five-color Zoo lists and three-color Goblin lists. Price is also great against a lot of control decks that I haven't listed here.

There were some questions regarding Choke earlier in the thread. I'd like to answer them, but there isn't much to say about the card. It's kind of slow, and it's sort of easy for the opponent to counter, but it almost always wins the game if it resolves. It's a lot worse against Merfolk than it is against CounterTop, but it still wins games (for example, Game 3 of Round 6 in Charlotte (http://www.justin.tv/clip/e437803c49e02aec), in which I was facing down my own Goyf, taken by a Mind Harness; my opponent was manascrewed, but Choke was a complete blow-out).

Honestly, I'd like to have more Chokes in the board, but it's too narrow and there isn't any more room. I love having a pair, though, since they show up often enough to be relevant, and they represent a completely different angle of attack for Zoo. I don't care how many Tarmogoyfs and Swords to Plowshares you draw, if you can't cast them.

Loxodon Baileyarch

09-22-2009, 12:08 PM

Hey, Alix Hatfield here.

But seriously, why the switch to Thoctar? I'm curious.

mackaber

09-22-2009, 12:13 PM

stuff
Very informative post Alix. Thanks. With a few more words it has enough content to be published at SCG for a few $$$ bills yall.

Obfuscate Freely

09-22-2009, 12:40 PM

But seriously, why the switch to Thoctar? I'm curious.
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention this.

I played Knight for awhile, but I got really pissed at how slow it is and how often it clashes with Lavamancer. It seemed that almost every time I drew the card, it would languish in my hand while I did better things with my mana, because paying :1::g::w: for a 2/2 or a 3/3 just doesn't cut it, and because I wanted to keep activating Lavamancers (which meant that the Knight would never enter play any bigger).

Thoctar, on the other hand, is always huge. I rarely feel silly investing three mana in a 5/4. The fact that he *only* trades with late-game Tarmogoyfs doesn't bother me much, when he is so much better earlier in the game.

The biggest concern about Thoctar seems to be its susceptibility to BEB, which is unfortunate, but I side out the three-drop (whether it is Thoctar or Knight) against several blue decks (Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, Team America), anyway, because of mana denial. It's also worth considering that Knight gets neutered by Relic of Progenitus, a card that is seeing play in maindecks.

Anyway, I made the switch back from Knight to Thoctar for the NJ tourney on the 5th, and am happy that I did so.

Very informative post Alix. Thanks. With a few more words it has enough content to be published at SCG for a few $$$ bills yall.
Haha, thanks. If anyone else wants more of my input about the deck, just let me know. I think it's really good, right now.

Loxodon Baileyarch

09-22-2009, 12:51 PM

It seemed that almost every time I drew the card, it would languish in my hand while I did better things with my mana, because paying :1::g::w: for a 2/2 or a 3/3 just doesn't cut it

My thoughts exactly, he seems like a late game card if anything, and some games you don't hit 3 mana, even through mana denial, and sometimes don't even want to. He gets huge, but sometime not huge NOAW which is what THoctar is.

Soldar

09-22-2009, 02:16 PM

First off, I've got to say that I appreciate all the work that's been done on the Zoo deck, I've played a lot of Aggro-Loam in the past, but Zoo looks like it's slowly becoming my deck of choice.

My question is about the miser's Jitte in the main, how has that been treating you?

Obfuscate Freely

09-22-2009, 02:37 PM

The maindeck Jitte has been there since I moved the Prices to the sideboard. When I did so, I moved the fourth Path from the sideboard to the main (where it probably should have been all along), and the Jittes were the next-most maindeck-worthy cards in the board. However, to compensate for the loss of reach, the third maindeck Price slot became another Fireblast (at the expense of the fourth Price, which no longer fit in the sideboard), so only one Jitte had to go in.

Having a single copy of Jitte seems random, but it isn't a bad card in many matchups. Drawing multiples can be a liability against some decks (CounterTop comes to mind), but that possibility is completely eliminated this way.

In general, Jitte is a good tool for Zoo to have access to, but it has some pretty significant drawbacks, and it's probably best if you don't see one in every game. Thus, even though I am happy to sideboard a second copy, I've never wanted a third, and I think the maindeck singleton makes a little more sense in that light.

TotallySweet

09-22-2009, 02:41 PM

I ran with one jitte main at gencon and it proved quite good for me. I suppose this is rather anecdotal, but I recall drawing it three times in the 8 rounds of gencon and it saved my bacon twice. One to destroy a merfolk player's jitte game one, one that let a goyf ride to victory vs goblins when I could only draw land and the third just sat in my hand as I won without it.

I actually like the last 1-3 slots in a deck to be one-of good stuffs. Like if there's 2 open spots, I'll toss one jitte, one oblivion ring in there and see what happens. Then for sideboard put #2 or even #3 in there for a few of em. Works for me.

hungryLIKEALION

09-22-2009, 03:03 PM

I also have a question. Why do you sideboard out Sylvan Library against merfolk? I've always felt like that was a very useful card in that matchup, especially in the face of mana denial. I leave it in against most decks that play some combination of wasteland and stifle, since resolving it lets me play through those cards pretty much flawlessly. Is it because of the life loss and you don't want to risk losing a race to the little blue fishes?

Anyway, I played in a tournament on Sunday. The list I played;

4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire (Still don't have that 4th foothills.)
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Stomping Grounds (Couldn't borrow more than one taiga.)
1 SC Mountain
1 SC Forest
1 SC Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

2 Figure of Destiny
2 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Duergar Hedgemage
4 Pyroclasm
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I still feel like this is a pretty good list. I beat Countertop(2-0), Sneak Attack(2-0), TES(2-0, oddly enough), and 4c Survival(2-1), and lost to Ichorid (0-2) then beat the TES player 2-0 again in the top 8 before losing to the Ichorid player 0-2 again in the top 4.

It was the first time I've felt dissatisfied with my list in a long time. Then again, playing 4 rounds against combo is not usual in my metagame. No one has played storm or dredge at my store for months now, so I long ago cut my gy hate to make more room for other matchups. I'm gonna begin reworking my build again since it looks like these matchups may be showing up more in my meta than they used to.

On the plus side, I managed to trade for my second FTV Kird ape and get a Taiga from the store by trading in some lackeys and a force of will. So now I'm just one Taiga from owning the whole mana base... woo hoo.

Lastly, funny story from the survival matchup. Game 2 I had two fetchlands down, a dual, and a basic, and was at 4 from his attacks. He was at 17 and had 4 non basics, so I decided I would have to burn him out. I had two lightning helixes and a Price of Progress in hand, so I just had to top another burn spell to win. I was going to EOT the two lightning helixes, untap and PoP, but then I got the idea that I could crack my fetches and PoP in response to only take two from the PoP... only to forget that the fetches put me at 2. That's the most flagrant play error I've made in a long time, but it made for a pretty hilarious moment. Thankfully I won the match anyway, but I was pretty mad at myself. ;p

GMTemplar

09-22-2009, 03:17 PM

What are the implications of the new cards from Zendikar and the unbanned ones on the metagame when it comes to Zoo?

I'm predicting harder times as Entomb and that Vampire guy start showing up. I can't really say about the Reanimator match-up but it does seem hard. What I can say is though that there's not really a damn thing we can do about the Vampire or Marit Lage. It seems like an auto-loss if it comes down any sooner than our alpha strike.

Not saying that Entomb or the Vampire will make it into a good deck or anything but regardless, people will test them in tournaments as well.

Obfuscate Freely

09-22-2009, 03:20 PM

hungryLIKEALION

09-22-2009, 04:31 PM

What I can say is though that there's not really a damn thing we can do about the Vampire or Marit Lage. It seems like an auto-loss if it comes down any sooner than our alpha strike.
Umm.. Hi, Marit Lage, meet path to exile?
Seriously, that's a cake walk. >_>

I did some testing a few weeks ago to determine the value of Sylvan Library in the Merfolk matchup, by adding a Library to random six-card hands and playing from there. What I found is that spending a turn to play the card often slows you down too much, unless you wait until it is too late for Library to really matter. Thus, my conclusion was that it is usually better to have another creature or removal spell in hand, and I started boarding Libraries out in this matchup.

You are right that Library helps you power through mana denial, though, and when Merfolk beats Zoo there are usually some Stifles and/or Wastelands to credit for it. It's possible that, despite my testing results, the Libraries are still better than the Chokes/Shushers that I've been bringing in in their place.Well, I have neither chokes nor shushers on my sideboard, but I have pyroclasms which I bring in. I'm probably gonna cut those though to free up more space for the matchups that aren't already incredibly easy.

Happy Gilmore

09-22-2009, 06:09 PM

Soldar

09-22-2009, 06:16 PM

hungryLIKEALION

09-22-2009, 08:58 PM

At hungryLIKEALION (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=15494) : Lightning Helix is great in the mirror, but in general, its fairly weak, You would would rather have a 1cc removal spell against most matchups. And dont run swords in the main, it runs quite contrary to your overall strategy.

Understand that teeg and 1 cannonist are much much less than what would be needed to effectively combo counter . You are much better off solidifying your CB matchup then devote slots to something that will beat you anway. I would also concur that Clasm is not necessary, even to beat goblins. You simply have too much removal for them, and every creature you play is bigger. The one matchup that can effectively be shored up without loosing too much would be GY based decks. Somethink like this might be worth a try:

3 Grip
2 REB
2 STP (4 path main)
2 Shusher
1 PoP (assuming 2 main)
1 Jitte (one main)
4 Crypt

Even when that new trap comes out I still wouldn't play it. Reanimator doesnt really put more than one or 2 cards in the gy at once, so for the most part the trap is limited to ichorid.
Please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub. I've been playing this deck for a long time, and my card choices are all made for a reason.

Lightning Helix is extremely powerful. When they print another 1cc 3dmg instant, I'll consider cutting helix, until then, I'll keep my 12 instant speed removal spells. To me, being an instant is that important. In addition, helix has trememdous synergy with Sylvan Library, which I like to draw with very aggressively. The only spell that would replace Helix is obviously chain lightning, but if I was going to run Chain Lightning I'd run it in addition to Helix and play 12 burns/16 removals.

As for swords vs path, we've had this argument in this thread 8 million times and it really doesn't need to be had again. In my previous tournament, as detailed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14713) I made the judgment call to run Swords over Path, which is what I normally run, based on the metagame I saw before the tournament, which consisted largely of goblins and elves. I did not want to give people a land for their goblin lackeys or priests of titania, so I played swords instead. And it was very good, even against goyf decks. This weekend I spent saturday night at my girlfriend's house and didn't go home before the tournament, so I just brought the deck as it was configured for the previous tournament, meaning swords still over path. Once again, it was fine all day. Not as good as it was last month, and I probably would have switched back to path this tournament if I had the chance, but it was not a substantial difference either way. I've played plenty of games with this deck with both W removal spells, and they each have their place, depending on the given metagame.

Gaddock Teeg is not there to battle combo, he is there to battle Engineered Explosives and other bomby control cards that people play in my meta. The canonist is there because I can also bring in teeg for combo but I don't want to bring in four teegs since he's legendary. You're right in that 4 cards will not magically make the combo matchup good, but you're wrong about Teeg not having his uses.

Once again, please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub who doesn't know what he's doing. I know why I put the cards I did in my deck, and they're all there for very good reasons.

Edit//And as for solidifying the CB matchup, I'm 11-2 against CB this year in tournaments. I solidify that matchup by playing well, not by bringing in 10 cards. If you don't play like a retard, CB is a very easy matchup.

Loxodon Baileyarch

09-23-2009, 05:09 AM

Please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub. I've been playing this deck for a long time, and my card choices are all made for a reason.
You're starting to act like yours truly. Haha.

@Everyone else: STP seems like a fine addition to the sideboard. I've never fucking thought of it before, and idk why because I've advocated both cards. Meh. I personally just sacrifice the combo matchup all together, your answers are too slow, and they can still Chant you on your turn 2 anyway, so i don't see the point wasting board slots. I just hope to get well aimed Lightning Helix and burn pretty much. I'm also thinking about cutting Needle from my board as well, but it helps against so much shit.

hungryLIKEALION

09-24-2009, 01:06 AM

Valtrix

09-24-2009, 01:59 AM

Arid Mesa. I win :P But yeah, it is unfortunate, though we got so much in the last year to make this a DTB, so I really can't complain either.

Roelke

09-24-2009, 03:25 AM

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty disappointed that we didn't really get any new playable cards from Zendikar. I guess I shouldn't complain too much after we got Wild Nacatl, Wooly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, and Qasali Pridemage over the last year, but still. Would be nice to get something. :(

You forget to mention path to exile.

During testing I found the ichorid match-up quite problematic, specially postboard ancestor's chosen are a real pain. The dredgedeck sees some more play these day (paired against it twice and usually makes up 10-15% of the metagame). I'm not into adding dedicated hatecards jet. But some general advice would be awesome.

My current list is fairly standard, with KOTR, lighting helix and without Jitte. I prefer the helix because the extra life swing is sweet against other agro decks. My sideboard is:
- 3 gaddock teeg
- 3 krosan grips
- 2 pithing needle
- 3 volcanic fallout
- 1 path to exile (3 main and the 4th copy might move main as well)
- 3 free slots (which will become 2 swords, 1 needle OR 3 reb's)

My current sideboard strategy against ichorid is:
-3 pridemage
-2 fireblast
-2 price of progress

+3 gaddock
+3 fallout
+1 path to exile

hungryLIKEALION

09-24-2009, 03:47 AM

Yeah, Ichorid is not a good matchup. I used to play Mogg Fanatic before the M10 rules instead of Kird Ape, so I never really had a problem with it then, but now it's a lot rougher without him. I'm still trying to figure out what to do about it, but I believe it's correct to bring in some mixture of REBs and Gaddock Teegs if you've got 'em. Just try to leave mana open to burn your own guys or lavamancer suicide, whenever they're about to get a big stack of zombies. ;\

Edit//Obligatory bragging for getting the 1337th post.

Roelke

09-24-2009, 04:04 AM

I used to side in REB but they were quite unimpressive, since ichorid only has breakthrough as the usually board out deep analyses.

Gaddock is quite useful against them by denying access to dread return (and sometimes breakthrough as well). My biggest problem is the big live swing they get with the chosen: usually gaining 30 or more life and having a nasty creature in play. After the chose i just get beaten down by small armies of zombies and horror's.

An other card that get's boarded in against zoo is tireless tribe; this guys is quite annoying against most of the zoo guys as well. And then I forgot to mention firestorm. If you take Parcher's sideboarding as an example:

Goyf Sligh/Zoo: G2: -2 DA, -4 LED, -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno
+1 Chosen, +3 Grudge, +2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +1 City (if Burn, switch Unmasks for Firestorms)

G3: -1 DA, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 Chosen

So you see; dredge has some powerful cards to bring in against zoo. Which makes the match even harder.

hungryLIKEALION

09-24-2009, 04:28 AM

To be honest this weekend was the first time I played the matchup for months. I sided out 2 KoTRs, 2 Libraries, 2 Jittes and 2 Pridemages for 4 Needles, 3 Teegs, and 1 Canonist. Teeg was great, but not enough to prevent me from getting stomped anyway. I think without some dedicated anti-dredge cards, the matchup is pretty close to unwinnable.

Jayzonious

09-24-2009, 02:01 PM

http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1253814948780.jpg

Skeggi

09-25-2009, 05:45 AM

I sided out 2 KoTRs, 2 Libraries, 2 Jittes and 2 Pridemages for 4 Needles, 3 Teegs, and 1 Canonist.
Canonist is of absolutely no use. A Pridemage can at least be sacrificed to kill your own Needle to remove Bridges if needed.

And any match-up against Ichorid is always winnable, because Ichorid tends to blow up into its owner's face every once in a while. Funny stuff :smile:.

hungryLIKEALION

09-25-2009, 10:20 AM

Canonist is of absolutely no use. A Pridemage can at least be sacrificed to kill your own Needle to remove Bridges if needed.

And any match-up against Ichorid is always winnable, because Ichorid tends to blow up into its owner's face every once in a while. Funny stuff :smile:.

Why is Canonist of no use? They can't combo out with it on the field. ;\

Goblin Snowman

09-25-2009, 10:32 AM

Why is Canonist of no use? They can't combo out with it on the field. ;\

By combo out, do you mean play a single Dread Return and kill you? They can easily operate with only one spell per turn. It might slightly annoy them when they want to use multiple therapies in one turn, but that's about all I can see it doing.

Citrus-God

09-25-2009, 10:41 AM

By combo out, do you mean play a single Dread Return and kill you? They can easily operate with only one spell per turn. It might slightly annoy them when they want to use multiple therapies in one turn, but that's about all I can see it doing.

Also doesnt stop Ichorid from coming into play and leaving play [and zombie tokens come into play].

Loxodon Baileyarch

09-25-2009, 10:49 AM

I can only say I've played against any Ichorid build in a tournament setting 3 times, and I've never won the round. I've won a game, then just got punted, with Teeg and Jitte active >.<

I hate that deck, it's not playing magic in my opinion.

hungryLIKEALION

09-25-2009, 11:33 AM

RogueMTG

09-25-2009, 03:28 PM

Well, I know when I played against the deck last weekend, he was playing like 8 spells per turn, and having canonist down would have been pretty sweet I think. Even if it wouldn't have been GREAT, it would have at least been decent.

I really haven't been able to think up a turn where Ichorid would ever play more than 3 or 4 spells (normally they might play 1 or none), even with a god hand. Even then it usually involves LED... so Cannonist could MAYBE (probably not) slow them down 1 turn?

Either you're crazy exaggerating or you are counting things like Bridge & Narcomeba triggers as spells or you were playing against a different deck...

CorpT

09-25-2009, 03:57 PM

I really haven't been able to think up a turn where Ichorid would ever play more than 3 or 4 spells (normally they might play 1 or none), even with a god hand. Even then it usually involves LED... so Cannonist could MAYBE (probably not) slow them down 1 turn?

Either you're crazy exaggerating or you are counting things like Bridge & Narcomeba triggers as spells or you were playing against a different deck...

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

RogueMTG

09-25-2009, 04:12 PM

hungryLIKEALION

09-25-2009, 04:45 PM

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

Three of the four games I plalyed against the guy went like that, except with deep analyses too.

I'm not saying Canonist would be the card I want to side in against dredge, but it's on my sb and I figured it would be better than a qasali pridemage. Even if it just buys one turn, it's possible I could remove a few bridges or something. Either way, it's like fighting a rhino and I have a choice between a butter knife and a letter opener. Neither one is actually gonna kill the rhino, but you pick the one you think gives you the best chance. Next time I'll pack an AK-47 (Tormod's Crypt).

TotallySweet

09-25-2009, 05:12 PM

I have extensive playtesting experience against ichorid, since my roommate plays the deck and we often just play all the time, both sideboarded and not. I tend to win matches 60/40 but they are long, involved games.

They do, indeed, tend to play multiple spells a turn, particularly, as some have mentioned, Cabal Therapy. Often, as well, they'll dread return eternal witness or cephalid sage, both of which imply a continuation of spells played.

That being said, cannonist isn't something I would side in for two reasons; there are better cards to side in, and it goes both ways, preventing you from playing more than one spell a turn as well (this isn't too terribly game-breaking, but it can certainly affect things unfavorably for you (no bolt+fireblast for the last 7 life, for instance).

I'll try to impart some wisdom I've found as far as sideboarding vs Ichorid is concerned if it can help people. First and foremost, no matter what you do, Ichorid can just up and win on turn 1 or 2 on the play if they are lucky, and this is just something that happens. Luck of the draw, say what you will, but it's something to keep in mind and don't get too frustrated! This is similar to ANT/TES, etc and the reason why many choose to ignore the matchup for SB purposes entirely, and depending on your meta that might be prudent.

*Keep those Pridemages in! They will board in needles and sometimes you can snatch their LED away from them at the perfect moment.
*If you do the stp in sb thing, side those baby's in! Ichorid is the main target here, on the upkeep. Also useful in a pinch to remove/kill the 3rd creature on the draw step after a narco. Keeping them off 3 creatures is integral!
*Tormod's crypt goes in and knowing when to use it is quite important. Many people use Relic now (not so much zoo since it hurts you too), but it's not as good as crypt vs ichorid since your mana is so very important during the first few turns. Keeping a mana open for the upkeep path or whatever what have you is crucial while also having a clock.
*Teeg is solid and he must be bounced, so this sometimes forces them to go into topdeck mode looking for a chain of vapor. Slow rolling with ichorids isn't so great vs Zoo due to pte and the like unless you are drawing like ass.

Notes:
Keep them off three creatures is the name of the game. Burn your own dudes or pop a crypt/relic when they get a bridge. Exile ichorids at almost every chance! Always be very aware of the contents of their graveyard. Cabal Therapy and Bridge means dread return is just around the corner. They will certainly DR an Ancestor's Chosen even if they don't have bridges or tokens just to halve your clock. Playing against Ichorid is an exciting and interactive matchup and I really enjoy it over other combo decks because aside from the 'oops I win, hurr' moments on turn 1 or 2, you actually get to play the game instead of watching a ANT or TES player play with himself for a few minutes before saying, "Good game, your taiga -> nacatl was a good play, but I guess I just won the game right after that haha, loser."

EDIT: way to go, Volt, you say my whole post in 2 lines T_T

Volt

09-25-2009, 05:17 PM

I've had pretty good success against Ichorid. I just side in 3 or 4 Crypts and play carefully. Get 1 or 2 threats on the board, then always keep some mana open for Path or burn. You have to be prepared to burn your own dudes during your opponent's draw step to get rid of Bridges, if need be.

EDIT: ninja'd

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention, 'clasms are good to SB in against Ichorid, too.

Humphrey

09-25-2009, 05:32 PM

Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer :rolleyes:

hungryLIKEALION

09-25-2009, 05:35 PM

So maybe the guy I played against just got really lucky, but every game he would cast 2+ Cabal Therapies by turn 2 and take out all the removal I had in hand. It seemed like the only chance I had to win was to topdeck into removal, which is why I sided in the canonist, cuz in theory he would be able to stall a turn or two before I get comboed out and it would give me an extra draw to hit some removal. That's the theory I was going by.

But like I said, butter knives to AK 47. I'm bringing back the crypts.

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-25-2009, 06:05 PM

Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer :rolleyes:

Do you actually use any blue cards?? I'm a little curious what your list looks like...

Valtrix

09-25-2009, 06:07 PM

Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer :rolleyes:

Yay 5 color. I'm actually going back to five color, because I miss my confidants oh so dearly. That, and I finally finished my playset so I have even more incentive to use them.

Random thing I was wondering about using in the 5 color builds was a 1x Volrath's Stronghold (In addition to other lands, and with 2x Knight of the Reliquary) Very minorly it helps reach the CMCs of things with colorless(I'm looking at you grip). However, most importantly it seems like its recursion could win us the game against anything unequipped to deal with it. It's kind of strange, but I think it could have some merit. People already run three drops, and while the land is not as aggressive it can go the distance. I think since in 5c we already are planning for a "longer" game, so how "slow" the land is is probably not that much of an issue. Just a thought.

EDIT: On blue cards, in my build I have blue mostly for tribal flames, but I also am trying 3 mind harnesses in the board. No testing yet, but the card seems really good for us.

hungryLIKEALION

09-25-2009, 06:35 PM

Yay 5 color. I'm actually going back to five color, because I miss my confidants oh so dearly. That, and I finally finished my playset so I have even more incentive to use them.

Random thing I was wondering about using in the 5 color builds was a 1x Volrath's Stronghold (With 2x Knight of the Reliquary.) It helps us a little bit in the mana deparment, mostly by making our sideboard easier to cast(I'm looking at you grip). However, most importantly it seems like its recursion could win us the game against anything unequipped to deal with it. It's kind of strange, but I think it could have some merit. I think since in 5c we already are planning for a "longer" game, so how "slow" the land is is probably not that much of an issue. Just a thought.

EDIT: On blue cards, in my build I have blue mostly for tribal flames, but I also am trying 3 mind harnesses in the board. No testing yet, but the card seems really good for us.

How does a colorless producing land make grip easier to cast?

Other than that, I do agree with most of what you've said.

Valtrix

09-25-2009, 07:17 PM

It's the whole getting to 3 mana consistently. Sometimes I have grip without enough mana to play it.

TotallySweet

09-25-2009, 07:25 PM

It's the whole getting to 3 mana consistently. Sometimes I have grip without enough mana to play it.

Ohh, I see. You mean that you have the normal amount of land PLUS stronghold, and in that way, in that you have extra land in the deck, it's easier to cast Grip. We were confused since it's just as wasteable as your duals, adds colorless, and taps for one so it was hard to see in what way it helped cast a 3-mana green spell above what having any other land in the deck in play would.

Valtrix

09-25-2009, 08:09 PM

It's really not the main point in all, in fact it's such a small point that I debating about even mentioning it in my original post. I just like to consider as much as possible when considering something.

Kird Ape

09-28-2009, 03:23 PM

I know that MWS is not very accurate with it's draw engine and you are going to be playing some exotic builds, but I don't get to tournaments often, so it's all i got. I've looked at my SB lately:
1 jitte (1 main)
3 PoP
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Grip
2 ReB
2 StP

Is landstill the threat it used to be? I guess that's why I run the REB, Shusher, choke, and PoP.

Ichorid has been problematic for me. I have played against and beat it in tournament play, but that was before the dread return tech was added. I'm thinking the Stp and the 2nd jitte here.

Mirror is going to be popular with the deck taking off the way it has. I'd say -2 fireblast +2 stp here maybe fit in the jitte #2.

Merfolk is a neat deck. I like to choke it, add REB too.

Countertop (booo). Choke, shusher, and stp.

Am i off base with my thoughts here and am I covering enough builds with my Sb. In the testing I have done, the list looks rounded.

e=mc^2

09-29-2009, 02:37 PM

How many people are side boring Price of Progress, and what decks are you seeing more of that make you take it out of the main?

Also, what do you need to see in an opening hand to make it worth keeping?

hungryLIKEALION

09-29-2009, 03:56 PM

I switch it between side and main depending on the meta. If there's a lot of landstill or counter top I'll play it main, if it's a lot of merfolk and goblins I'll put it in the side.

A good opening hand is defined by what matchup you're playing against. I'll go ahead and come up with some examples, say what I'd do with them, and then analyze which match ups it is appropriate to keep it for. I'll draw them all from my deck for authenticity.

Hand 1:
Grim Lavamancer
Tarmogoyf
Figure of Destiny
Knight of the Reliquary
Fireblast
Windswept Heath
Savannah
General Verdict:Keep
This is a somewhat sketchy hand, but I'd feel comfortable playing it against most decks in the format. If you don't know what they're playing, you might be a little weary about wasteland, but you do have two one drops and a good chance to draw a third land. You'll need to draw a third land to cast the Fireblast in the hand, but in a deck with 21 lands that's usually not a huge issue.
DTBs I'd keep this hand against;
Landstill
Mirror
Countertop

DTBs I'd consider this hand against;
Goblins
Merfolk
Tempo Thresh

DTBs I'd mull this hand against;
ANT

Hand 2:
Sylvan Library
Knight of the Reliquary
Windswept Heath
Windswept Heath
Qasali Pridemage
Fireblast
Taiga
General Verdict:Mull
This hand is going to be far too slow against pretty much any deck in the format. I'm tempted to say keep for the mirror match since you have both library and knight to overpower them with, but really, if they play a one and two drop your qasali pridemage is gonna be way too slow to hold down the fort. I'd mull this against anything.

Hand 3:
Tarmogoyf
Figure of Destiny
Lightning Helix
Price of Progress
Taiga
Wooded Foothills
Plains
This is a pretty good hand. It's got a one drop that you can play off a basic, a green dual to play tarmogoyf off of through stifle on turn 2, and two good burn spells, with a third land to protect from wasteland. I'd keep this hand versus everything. Even game 1 against ANT, you can't ask for too much better without being really greedy.

Hand 4:
Qasali Pridemage
Path to Exile
Qasali Pridemage
Tarmogoyf
Kird Ape
Horizon Canopy
Taiga
General Verdict:Keep
This is a very good hand. You can make a turn one ape, turn two pridemage, turn three pridemage, and have a tarmogoyf to follow up with after you get your exalted beats on. You also have a path for their first goyf to ensure you can beat unimpeded. With a little luck you'll draw into burn, and you can cash your canopy in for another card if you hit more lands. Once again, I'd keep this against any deck in the DTB.

Hand 5:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Bolt
Taiga
Wild Nacatl
Wild Nacatl
Fireblast
Plateau
General Verdict:Keep
This hand is beautiful. Aside from being a self contained third turn kill if they deal any damage to themselves, this hand is fast, has removal, and is brutally efficient. Assuming you draw ANY gas off the top, you should be able to win this game. Once again, keep against everybody.

So yeah, that's a pretty general overview. For me, the most important things to consider when determining whether or not you can keep a hand looks like this;

Wild Nacatls
Tarmogoyfs
Burn
Other one and two drops
Lands
Swords effects

The more nacatls and goyfs you have, the more likely you tend to be to win. If you don't have any nacatls or goyfs, you should have multiple other ones and two drops. If you don't have any one drops, the hand should at least have a 1cc removal spell and at least one tarmogoyf to consider keeping it. When playing against combo, you shift the list to 1 drops being the most important, followed by burn. If 4 cards of the hand do not contribute to a turn 3/4 kill (I.E. Lands, Library, KoTRs, Swords/Path) you mull it.

I hope this helps. :)

Kird Ape

09-29-2009, 05:31 PM

I think price started to fall out of the main as I needed more and more red, forcing me to pull more of my duals out through fetches. Then when I go to cast a PoP I was stinging myself for the same if not more than my opponent. It was getting to the point where I didn't want to see it unless it was with a fireblast.

The arguement could be made I'm sure, that Pop is too powerful and the life loss doesn't matter. I submit that the card was becoming situational and would sit in hand for a few turns until it could deal a finishing blow. In that case I would rather have something else that's going to have an immediate impact on the board.

The card is too good not to be played and pairs very well with a shusher and a fireblast. Against landstill, it can single handedly win you the game. That's reason enough for me to have it around.

Obfuscate Freely

09-29-2009, 05:35 PM

I moved the Prices to the board once Merfolk and the mirror became major metagame concerns. The card is practically dead weight in both matchups.

Fuzzy

09-30-2009, 11:36 AM

I moved the Prices to the board once Merfolk and the mirror became major metagame concerns. The card is practically dead weight in both matchups.

Really? Why?

Jeff Kruchkow

09-30-2009, 12:36 PM

Really? Why?

Because if you are losing it wont win you the game. Also, in other matchups you are willing to trade 4-6 of your own life for a bunch of theirs. Against zoo tho, they can burn you out and if they have been beating on you, it doesnt hit creatures.

ScatmanX

09-30-2009, 01:52 PM

Question:
What cards in a Goblin deck do Zoo hate to see sided?
Pyroknesis? Perish? Relic of Progenitus? Other?

hungryLIKEALION

09-30-2009, 03:27 PM

Question:
What cards in a Goblin deck do Zoo hate to see sided?
Pyroknesis? Perish? Relic of Progenitus? Other?

Pyrokinesis is the best card they have against us, but it's usually only a 1 for 2 for the goblins player and it's pretty easy to shurg off. Perish might be a little better if you're running the black splash, but it's not that hard to play around since the deck has multiple non-green creatures it can play to avoid over extension.

Relic's usually not more than a minor annoyance. They shrink goyf once, then you crack a fetch and bolt a goblin and it's back to 3/4.

mackaber

09-30-2009, 04:47 PM

Valtrix

09-30-2009, 08:26 PM

I know this has been brought up and has been dismissed before, but seeing that a lot of people are talking about Steppe Lynx as being awesome in extended Zoo I was wondering if anyone has been testing it in Legacy. Particularly in builds running 12+fetches it seems like it might be better than Kird Ape (whom it seems most people consider marginal and rightfully so) since it can bang for 4 a turn in the first few turns but becomes totally dead in the mid to lategame. Overall the Lynx seems more suited to extremely aggresive strategies and most lists around here tend to be geared more and more towards the midgame...

The fact is that you're assuming that you're going to have extra fetchlands to use,and that it's going to actually matter. Even though you're playing 9+ fetchlands, you're probably not going to get more than two in a hand. Thus, only in that scenario lynx is any sort of good, but in almost every case he just sucks. I did the math before, and on average he's still worse than Isamaru, and Isamaru sucks. Plus, he hurts your aggro matchup.

B is for Big Job

09-30-2009, 10:01 PM

If any landfall creature should be in the deck, it should be plated geopege since the fact that he can still attack without needing a land drop and he has first strike which is ballin. But still he shouldnt be in here for the same reasons as lynx isnt in here for relying on land drops to be a success. Dont get me wrong theyre good cards for t2 and drafting but these guys are too conditional and they are very easy to get rid of.

FoulQ

10-01-2009, 12:33 AM

I'm just wondering, how keepable are one-land hands with this deck, especially just a fetchland on the draw? Say I have a hand of heath, nacatl, lavamancer, chain, fireblast, woolly thoctar, and PtE (for example). Stifle and Wasteland are potential threats (but you don't know what you are playing).

Is there any matchup in the aggro mirror where this deck should try to take on the control role? Obviously it changes game by game, but is there a specific deck where this is more common?

TotallySweet

10-01-2009, 01:09 AM

Keeping a one land hand, even on the draw, is one waste/stifle away from keeping a zero land hand. I've only ever been burned by this and it's pretty much a rule for me.

As for playing the control role, I lapse into this versus Ichorid and Can Thresh. Ichorid because keeping him off three creatures, pathing ichorid's on upkeeps, killing my guys at key intervals, etc are integral. Just loling into full aggro will get you eating twelve 3/3 hasted zombies pretty quick, barring some heinous luck on ichorid's part. Vs Can Thresh I tend to sit on my haunches a lot. Playing around daze, taking my time with threats, fetching basics, never overextending. They have 4 goyfs in their whole deck and a weak-noodle lategame. Barring complete and total landscrew with multiple wastelands and stifles Zoo should win based on inevitability.

hungryLIKEALION

10-01-2009, 04:15 PM

I will not keep a one land hand unless I'm at 5 cards or less. ;\ This format is just too full of mana denial to risk it.

Svenyboy

10-02-2009, 04:23 AM

Hello guys,
actually I play this build in Legacy with good results:

Creature:
4 Kird Ape
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Plated Geopede
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress

Land:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Taiga
4 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest

-> This build is awesome. Very fast and strong. Now Ape and Nacatl aren't the best drops. Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopede do their job because they are 4/5 and 5/5 like Tarmogoyf. 1 Knight is random but I don't like cc3 in this build. I think 1 is ok. 21 lands are good because we can play 11 fetchies for Lynx and Geopede. Furthermore our Mirror is better with the Lightning Helix. This build is a Goyf Sligh with white splash for Lynx, Nacatl and Helixe.
What do you think about this build?

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Tormod's Crypt

Roelke

10-02-2009, 05:35 AM

Hello guys,

(decklist)

-> This build is awesome. Very fast and strong. Now Ape and Nacatl aren't the best drops. Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopede do their job because they are 4/5 and 5/5 like Tarmogoyf. 1 Knight is random but I don't like cc3 in this build. I think 1 is ok. 21 lands are good because we can play 11 fetchies for Lynx and Geopede. Furthermore our Mirror is better with the Lightning Helix. This build is a Goyf Sligh with white splash for Lynx, Nacatl and Helixe.
What do you think about this build?

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Tormod's Crypt

If you don't like 3cc cards, why play 9 in the board? I don't think vortex is that good, you're better of playing some targeted removal (path to exile) which is a strong card in many matches. That's why it usually gets played in the maindeck.

Next to that I wouldn'y play more the 2 or 3 copies of price of progress; it's not a card you want to see against every match. Of course this changes if everybody in your meta either plays tempo Thresh or Landstill.

I think the landfall theme is a bit of a coinflip; you might be able to fetch mulitple times in a turn an get some big geopedes and/or lynxes or you might not draw enough land (which is possible with only 21 of them) and have some unimpressive dudes; If i'd play the landfall dudes I'd up the number of fetchlands even more (maybe even to 14ish). I'd run this mana base:
4x wooded foothils
4x windswept heath
4x arid mesa
2x bloodstained mire
2x plateau
2x taiga
1x savannah
3x forest,mountain,plains

Svenyboy

10-02-2009, 09:36 AM

If you don't like 3cc cards, why play 9 in the board? I don't think vortex is that good, you're better of playing some targeted removal (path to exile) which is a strong card in many matches. That's why it usually gets played in the maindeck.

That's it. I play 9 cards in my board. This is the reason why I can't play more cc3 drops with the KotR Playset...
Vortex is very good against Landstill/Cunningstill. A very important card because the landstill player has to react.
Path to Exile is good but I don't need it really. If we play against Dreadnought or Rhox War Monk is Path to Exile crap, in response Top get on the top of owner's library and CB is the gamecard versus PtoE. Beside PtoE is a dead card, do nothing against Storm Combo. I've been playing Zoo for 5-6 months, with and without PtoE and I think that PtoE isn't really important.

14 Fetchies seriously? I think's 14 fetchies of 8 targets are tooooo much.

mackaber

10-02-2009, 11:01 AM

14 Fetchies seriously? I think's 14 fetchies of 8 targets are tooooo much.

Absolutely not. Fetchlands are the best cards in your list. Why run anything less than the absolute maximum? if there's no more targets in your dec your not winning anyway...

Also why are people comparing geopode to Lynx? The one is a one drop and the other is a 2 drop. For one thing this means Geopode has to compare to Goyf and pridemage, since the last thing you'd want to do is cut 1 drops from the dec. Lynx on the other hand has only Kird ape to contend with for a slot. Also it should be obvious to everyone that landfall is more powerful an ability the lower a creatures casting cost.
Well in about two weeks from now PT Austin will be held and I'm pretty sure that pretty much all Zoo decs there will be running Lynx. Perhaps then people here will start to realize that it might also merit a slot in Legacy Zoo.

hungryLIKEALION

10-02-2009, 11:19 AM

The difference there is that in Extended zoo you run 24-ish lands because you (likely) have a playset of both KoTR/Thoctar AND a playset of Ranger of Eos. 24 lands is a HUGE difference from 21.

keys

10-02-2009, 03:31 PM

Stifle is looking really good right now.

e=mc^2

10-02-2009, 05:31 PM

keys

10-02-2009, 06:29 PM

I hav a tournament in a few weeks and combo will probably be making an appearance. What are the best sb cards against combo? If i see enough of it is it worth it to maineck Teegs? Has anyone tested out Mindbreak Trap in the combo MU?

Teeg/Canonist are much better than Trap, Imo. Trap fails vs chant, duress and ad-nauseam.

If you have 4 open spots, do a 2/2 split.

hungryLIKEALION

10-03-2009, 02:49 AM

MD Teegs and SB canonists are the only viable way to fight combo, if you don't want to MD Teeg I'd say abandon the matchup and pray you don't play it.

Svenyboy

10-04-2009, 10:22 AM

What do you think about Grim Lavamancer and Knight of the Reliquary in a build together? That's a really bad synergie. I had this situation against Ichorid:

Player 2: Narcomoeba in the play. Bridge in the GY. (I have to handle the Bridge with a shoot on the Narcomoeba).
Me: Knight & Lavamancer. Lightning Bolt at my hand. 2 Fetchies in GY.
-> If I play Lavamancers ability for the shoot Knight isn't strong enough. If I play Bolt to the Narcomoeba I have one card less in the hand and Lavamancer is a dead card in my build.
The anti synergie between Knight and Lavamancer is tooo hard.

What do you think?

TotallySweet

10-04-2009, 11:58 AM

That's why I use Thoctar. Grim and Goyf are disynergous enough as it is. All three are good each and kind of work together (Knight gives grim land to eat), but they step on each other's toes too much, and Knight more often than not becomes a tapped land rearranger instead of swinging.

The Pharmacist

10-04-2009, 12:57 PM

Svenyboy

10-04-2009, 01:53 PM

Ok so here is the list that I run. Say what you want about it, but it`s really good. If you to make fun of me or give an idea go for it.

Deck name is: Brooklyn Zoo aka Ol' Dirty Bastard
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasli Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Heilx
2 Sylvan Library
3 Doom Blade/ Terminate
1 Swords to Plow

2 Foothills
4 Mire
4 Heath
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains

s/b
3 choke
4 Duress
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyroblast
2 Crypt

You don't want give your oppenent 12 life for a Phyrexian Dreadnought. I would play -3 Doom Blade/Terminate and -1 StoP and +4 Path to Exile.
Furthermore Grim Lavamancer is very random and not good in this build. Knight of the Reliquary is stronger. You haven't enough Burn for Lavamancer.
Library and Confidant seriously? Dark Confidant is enough for the draw.
+4 KotR
-2 Lavamancer
-2 Library

ScatmanX

10-04-2009, 02:10 PM

You don't want give your oppenent 12 life for a Phyrexian Dreadnought. I would play -3 Doom Blade/Terminate and -1 StoP and +4 Path to Exile.
Furthermore Grim Lavamancer is very random and not good in this build. Knight of the Reliquary is stronger. You haven't enough Burn for Lavamancer.
Library and Confidant seriously? Dark Confidant is enough for the draw.
+4 KotR
-2 Lavamancer
-2 Library

He already plays 4 Path...

MMogg

10-04-2009, 06:23 PM

Is it just me or is this thread slowly devolving as it alternates between decklist show and tell and repeated discussions that have already been gone over a billion times? :cry:

If you're going to post a decklist, at least put in a minimal effort to highlight how it is different than the 5,000 other decklists in this thread and why your build is optimal/works for you, preferably by talking about match-ups or something. Whipping it out and saying "have a look" is not a basis for discussion. :tongue:

ScatmanX

10-04-2009, 08:07 PM

If you're going to post a decklist, at least put in a minimal effort to highlight why your build is optimal/works for you, preferably by talking about match-ups or something. Whipping it out and saying "have a look" is not a basis for discussion. :tongue:
And everithing the guy below me said.

Bout the decklist, I'd cut 2 Library and 1 Doom Blade for 3 Chain Lightning.

Hanni

10-04-2009, 08:10 PM

Is it just me or is this thread slowly devolving as it alternates between decklist show and tell and repeated discussions that have already been gone over a billion times?

If you're going to post a decklist, at least put in a minimal effort to highlight how it is different than the 5,000 other decklists in this thread and why your build is optimal/works for you, preferably by talking about match-ups or something. Whipping it out and saying "have a look" is not a basis for discussion.

Why is it ass holes like you have to post stuff like you just did. Maybe it`s because I didn`t have time to read 75 pages about zoo decks.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with MMogg here. If this thread was in the new and developmental forum, I could understand. However, as a DTB thread, this is not the place for unknowledgable players (not saying that you are) to spam decklists and get help, it's a place for those involved with the archetype to further innovate and develop it into a stronger deck. If you wanted help, you could either take the time to read the information, which is going to be your absolute best approach, or to PM someone who is knowledgeable and ask their advice.

If you have tested your deck significantly in relation to the standard variations and have found it to be innovative and an improvement, including the information that explains the why and how is much more beneficial than posting a decklist and either asking everyone what they think or telling everyone that it's good regardless of what they think.

I'm not trying to moderate the forum though, so I could really care less what you do, but you must understand that it gets annoying seeing people disregard the point of the forum to take the discussion in a backwards approach rather than move it forward.

However, your decklist doesn't look too bad. I'm not sure that going 4c to splash black for MD Confidant/Terminate and SB Duress is significantly improving any existing matchups, but I'm not a Zoo expert, so I'll leave that discussion to everyone else.

hungryLIKEALION

10-05-2009, 12:40 AM

I never have trouble finding enough food for lavamancer and knight. However, I only run knight as a two of. I believe running more than two of the three drop slot is a bad idea. I know that I don't want a knight in my opening hand in most matchups, but I do want him to be in my deck so that I can draw him when I need him. I've been one of the largest proponents of knight in this deck, but I would never play four. I tried playing three once and I did not like it at all. He ended up gumming up Hands far too often. If you run four goyfs, three mancers, and two knights, the desynergy is minimal. I still don't like four color builds enough to justify weakening the manabase, but I do concur with those saying that confidant and library is redundant. Personally, I like library better regardless of colors, and since he's really the main reason you play black anyway, I just don't see the point of adding black. Sorry for wall of texting here I'm writing from my iPhone

chokin

10-05-2009, 02:50 AM

Why is it ass holes like you have to post stuff like you just did. Maybe it`s because I didn`t have time to read 75 pages about zoo decks.

The rules have a part in the spam area that says something about it's a no-no to post just a decklist with nothing else (especially in the DTB area).

I think that one of the problems with adding a 4th color is that it can be a little more inconsistent than rolling 3 colors. Sure, you can judge your hands and fetch accordingly, but what about if you're facing against someone who can Stifle and Wasteland your lands, it gets to be a lot of juggling just to play.

Confidant is awesome and plays nice with the curve. And Duress adds extra hate against ANT. If you can make the benefits outweigh the risks where you play, go for it.

@Bitchtoken - Since he already has 4 PTE, maybe STP is fine. I'd rather my opponent gain 12 life from a Dreadnought than lose the game or get hit by Spell Snare by playing Doom Blade or Terminate.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-05-2009, 03:52 AM

I liked this thread better when everyone was arguing about Aether Vial.

Where's Valtrix and that other guy when you need em.

I don't post here hardly anymore because it's turned into the Vial Goblins thread, except we don't have new hyped cards to talk about.

Goblin Guide = Awesome in Extended btw.

P.S.

10-05-2009, 04:38 AM

Depending on build, this deck is really heavy at the two-drop already (Pridemage, 'Goyf, Confident). However, I see a lot more builds that are running pretty heavy in the burn department too. Do early beats with dudes, then finish off your opponent with burn to the head (or to clear blockers) when things slow down in the red zone.

That seems to be the basic idea. Much like Red Deck Wins used to do.

So, that got me to thinking. With all of the talk about:

Is it just me or is this thread slowly devolving as it alternates between decklist show and tell and repeated discussions that have already been gone over a billion times?

To try to find something different. So I started looking at my old tournament logs and whatnot and some old staples of my Red Deck Wins (Sligh!) lists.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/Drag0nthrax/orcish_librarian.jpg

Oh, ho, ho! You can clown on me all you want, but I played this heffer in the very first tournament that I ever won back in 1996! I still have the plaque around here somewhere.

Pros: Only one colored mana. Digs for burn/answers.
Cons: Really small and not an efficient beater.

Obviously you're never going to play him on the second turn. He's not there to swing. You'll never want to play him early when you could drop something like Tarmogoyf instead. However, with builds that are running fewer copies of Grim Lavamancer, maybe he could fit into that role? The orc won't "step on the toes" of graveyard effects and although it doesn't do damage directly, it does find damage indirectly.

Granted it is almost 5 A.M. and maybe I'm sleep deprived, delirious and/or crazy...but I'm going to test it for awhile. It was one of my favorite cards for a long time several years ago.

Snief

10-05-2009, 07:08 PM

That´s absolutely ridicoulus... people who play burn+StoP in the same list (how often some1 has to say that this is terrible?!); Orcish Librarian, I mean, wtf?; seriously, this is a Deck to Beat.
Your weapon of choice against Dreadnought is obv Krosan Grip(>PtE>Swords). And even if I´m not a big fan of Sylvan Library, this card is at least worth playing. So, please, let´s improve the Deck.
Just my 2c.

iamajellydonut

10-05-2009, 07:22 PM

Your weapon of choice against Dreadnought is obv Krosan Grip(>PtE>Swords). And even if I´m not a big fan of Sylvan Library, this card is at least worth playing. So, please, let´s improve the Deck.
Just my 2c.

Krosan Grip > PtE how?

P.S.

10-05-2009, 07:22 PM

iamajellydonut

10-05-2009, 07:34 PM

Landx20
1 * Forest
1 * Plains
2 * Arid Mesa
1 * Badlands
1 * Bayou
1 * Plateau
2 * Savannah
2 * Taiga
1 * Tropical Island
4 * Windswept Heath
4 * Wooded Foothills

Creaturesx24
4 * Dark Confidant
4 * Viashino Slaughtermaster
4 * Gaddock Teeg
1 * Tarmogoyf
3 * Boros Swiftblade
4 * Qasali Pridemage
4 * Tidehollow Sculler

Other Spellsx16
4 * Path to Exile
4 * Tribal Flames
4 * Gaea's Might
4 * Might of Alara
------------------
Sideboard
15 * Relentless Rats

Yea, it's Gaea Might Get There. But why not? Its constancy is through the roof. 8xGaea's Might. 7x2cc Double Strike. 4xConfidant. And Sculler+Pridemage+Gaddock work to limit the opposition.

I know, there is a noticeable lack of Htarmogoyf and Lightning Helix. Lightning Helix just put me back a step. The life gain did nothing. I'd rather have Lightning Bolt.

Tarmogoyf was poor. It didn't impede the opponent, and it didn't do anything above and beyond with the Mights.

p.s. This is just a rough draft, and the mana still needs quite a bit o' tweaking.

iamajellydonut

10-05-2009, 07:37 PM

I don't understand what your argument is. We can't discuss cards because of where this thread is located on the message forum?

I am of the firm belief that decks are to be tweaked and altered to a personal playstyle. I will never, ever just copy a decklist 100% completely and then just sit down and play it without ever questioning any of the slots. I am also a big proponent of my opponent not knowing my entire card list when I lay my first or second land.

Bottom line being: "don't knock it until you try it."

Haters gonna hate. One of the best ways to tell how good a player is is by how close-minded they are.

This exactly. Though, I am going to side with him on the Librarian. If they went to the grave, maybe. But it doesn't. And that makes him a Terrorable Magma Jet without the virtual haste.

hungryLIKEALION

10-05-2009, 08:05 PM

Librarian is even worse than a magma jet since you don't even get to choose what is removed. That card is just straight up terrible.

iamajellydonut

10-05-2009, 08:09 PM

Librarian is even worse than a magma jet since you don't even get to choose what is removed. That card is just straight up terrible.

Milling does not affect probability.

Snief

10-06-2009, 04:53 AM

I don't understand what your argument is. We can't discuss cards because of where this thread is located on the message forum?
I am of the firm belief that decks are to be tweaked and altered to a personal playstyle. I will never, ever just copy a decklist 100% completely and then just sit down and play it without ever questioning any of the slots. I am also a big proponent of my opponent not knowing my entire card list when I lay my first or second land.

Bottom line being: "don't knock it until you try it."

No, we can discuss nearly everything, but I mean a card like Orcish Librarian may have been worth playing 1996, but not today, I think. And I think too that one should not copy a list 100%, but then you should play cards that improve the deck or at least don´t make it worse.

And Krosan Grip>PtE against Dreadnought imo, given the fact that Nought is played in blue-based decks and Grip has split second.

Svenyboy

10-06-2009, 08:40 AM

After testing a lot of different builds of Zoo I have decided me for this list:

Creature:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar

Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress

Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning

Land:
2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mountain
1 Forest

-> I think this list is fast and constant. 3 Plateau's are definitely enough to cast Thoctar & Helix and to pump your Nacatl (with Canopys). I don't like the PtoE because it can be a dead card against Combo for example.
What do you think? Are Sylvan Library and 21 Lands necessary?

Snief

10-06-2009, 12:45 PM

That list looks very similar to a list I played last time. I think 19 lands are also playable with 1 Canopy. The more Canopy the more lands I would play. My land base looks like this:

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothils
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
19 Lands

I like to play 1 basic of each color against Wastelands and for my own PoP. You should consider to play 3 Magma Jet or 2 Sylvan Library for Card Advantage.

TotallySweet

10-06-2009, 12:49 PM

I run with 20 lands and haven't noticed a problem. I ended up taking out Sylvan Library because I found myself siding it out in every single matchup, although it is definitely good and would fault no one for running it. Path to Exile is great against the one combo deck that we don't auto lose the match to: Ichorid. In fact, an exile target creature spell is amazing against a warehouse sized list of decks too numerous to talk about (especially because, again, we've been over this before). PtE and Pridemage are literally why we are an evolutionary step above Goyf Sligh and should not be run as less that 4-ofs.

So in conclusion,

Are Sylvan Library and 21 Lands necessary?
No, but Path to Exile is.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-06-2009, 03:31 PM

I finally took the time to test the fast Goyf Sligh version in a tournament setting last Wednesday.

I made room for a full set of Chain Lightning, Lavamancer. 3 ofs of Hellspark Elemental and Fireblast too.

Fireblast was disappointing and didn't do anything, like anything at all. I never wanted to cast it, even as a finisher. I always had damage on the board. Lavamancer is in fact insane, but i would have to vary my build too much. I understand why people jerk off to him.

I also think that Hellspark is fucking amazing. Idk why i never ran him in my regular Zoo list. He either deals 6, or saves my other dudes a STP. So good.

I went 3 and 2 losing both to combo decks. I packed no hate in the SB, and even if i did i don't think it would have mattered. I lost to Alluren and Tendrils. I almost got a lucky win when he went down to 1 with Ad Nauseum.

But yeah, my conclusion is that, in the right build, Lavamancer and Hellspark are fucking brutal.

Gui

10-06-2009, 03:35 PM

Wanna use this on the Berserk Stompy thread, so fell free to fry me up!

What about using Bersek+Pumps into the Zoo Shell?

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-06-2009, 03:41 PM

Wanna use this on the Berserk Stompy thread, so fell free to fry me up!

What about using Bersek+Pumps into the Zoo Shell?

I have a feeling you're throwing out a shitty idea to get us to go read your Thread. You almost had me at Berserk.

Gui

10-06-2009, 03:46 PM

I have a feeling you're throwing out a shitty idea to get us to go read your Thread. You almost had me at Berserk.

No, actually it's a discussion there. It's not quite my thread... I mean, i made the post, but the deck is far elder....

Anyways, the discussion there is more like about monogreen berserk stompy and 3-c berserk stompy, which clearly leads to the discussion "isn't it (3c) a worse version of zoo"?

As far as I know, this is the best thread to ask it. So, what about using Berserk + Pumps in this deck shell? Would it enhance matchups? (even if dimishing others)

oneiros76

10-06-2009, 04:08 PM

It seems like pump spells are just limited burn spells. They can't alternate between removal and burn like bolt and such can, and set you up for getting 2 for 1'd frequently. The damage payoff for using pump instead of burn doesn't seem significant either, at best a berserk will hit a thoctar, but will usually hit a 3 or 4 power goyf or nacactl, which isn't much different from bolting their face. Using a non-berserk pump spell to have your kird ape kill their goyf seems good, but you'll find yourself wanting to bolt their confidant, painter, your own guy against ichorid, damaging ad nauseum players, etc etc more often that you'll get away with trading giant growths for tarmogoyfs.

hungryLIKEALION

10-06-2009, 04:16 PM

The only pump spell I've ever felt it worthwhile to run was reckless charge, and I'm not even running that anymore. RC was good because it was worth six damage on it's own, plus oftentimes an extraswing off a nacatl you just dropped, making it more often six damageper casting; berserk doesn't seem very likely to give us more damage than that, and including the pump to support it dilutes the strength of the deck significantly.

Gui

10-06-2009, 05:40 PM

What about Kavu+Invigorate mini-combo?

I mean, with the pump spells to add dmg, you also may use this... And invigorage is good with berserk, and STP is also good with kavu...

Phoenix Ignition

10-06-2009, 06:03 PM

What about Kavu+Invigorate mini-combo?

I mean, with the pump spells to add dmg, you also may use this... And invigorage is good with berserk, and STP is also good with kavu...

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

Gui

10-06-2009, 06:25 PM

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

Thank you for sharing!

Anyways, I wanted to know if it can be useful for you in this deck or not. If you don't fell like helping, no problem then, I won't bother you anymore.

DukeDemonKn1ght

10-06-2009, 06:42 PM

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

Phoenix, every time I see you post anything on any part of this website, it's not really constructive. Very often, your points are legitimate, but you always make your point like an asshole. Your comments can usually be distilled to "shut the fuck up, I don't agree with you, therefore you're a moron." You should look into anger management therapy and a year's subscription to Extenze.

As far as pump spells in Zoo decks, I agree it's basically the definition of sub-optimal. Pump spells are far less flexible than burn in just about any deck that plays an aggressive strategy and uses red. But notice how I choose to make my point relatively politely.

umbowta

10-07-2009, 09:30 PM

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.Whoa dude. This is still Zoo we're talking about here. Yes, WoTC up and decided to print Tarmogoyf(replaced Mongrel) Nacatl(replaced Savannah Lions) and Pridemage(replaced Watchwolf)...and PtE(holy crap the deck has a removal spell that doesn't go against the strategy of the deck). Now the deck is for the "big boys"? Really? I'm glad the "big boys" finally caught on now that WoTC made the deck a little easier to pilot and a lot more competitive. Honestly, to have some of the more well known designers and tweakers looking at this deck, a deck that I was Piloting to top 8s years ago, has made me very happy. It's like being on a team for once instead of being that guy playing the stupid tier 2 Zoo deck. Now to answer Gui-Brasil.

I went a little nutty a while back and decided to throw Zoo and Berserk Stompy in a blender. Now I've done alot of testing with Berserk in a Zoo shell and found that the best, that is, most fun list, so far, is a near 50/50 hybridization of Mono G and Zoo.

The name of this abomination is Boston Gardens
'Boston" cuz it's wicked fast.
"Gardens" is the Zoo reference parallel.

4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Viashino Slaughtermaster

4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bayou

Turn 2 and turn 3 kills made me smile like little boy who just found daddy's porno stash but I could not ever justify the conditional nature of pump spells over burn. Fun as hell to pilot? Oh yeah, but very fragile compared to Zoo.

Don't even complain to me about posting weird lists in the DTB's. I was answering a question raised by Gui in this forum which happens to also answer PM's I have received from others who had the same idea.

Bardo

10-07-2009, 09:44 PM

Let's knock off the name-calling bullshit. First one who does it again in this thread gets a double-warning--foul mood I'm in.

LegacyFTW

10-07-2009, 11:41 PM

Just wondering have you guys discussed replacing Kird apes with Goblin Guide?

hungryLIKEALION

10-07-2009, 11:43 PM

Yes. The general concensus is that it hurts this deck too much compared to faster decks like goyfsligh which are much better suited to take advantage of the guide's speed.

oneiros76

10-08-2009, 02:11 PM

I think some testing on the Goblin Guide is definitely called for, my biggest question is if the advantage of being able to peek at a counterbalance player's top card (creates funny bluffing situations! does the cb player put a spell on top to try to counter or does he leave a land on top to draw it from guide? do we cast spells before combat to try to catch him doing this? :D) is good enough to outweigh the disadvantage of them drawing cards by topping to put lands on top to draw them from guide's effect. also is the 2 toughness significant? obviously in a heavy zoo meta where they're still running kird ape it a little bit of a problem, but i could see it being a problem against merfolk to where all of their 2 power dudes will be able to trade with him where the kird ape would just win (unless they have a lord that you can't just blast).
Anyone else want to throw more pro's/con's out?

erhnamdjinn

10-08-2009, 04:24 PM

whats this decks answer to a tutored Progenitus , I have atleast 2 bant decks and 1 green deck using this combo.

DragoFireheart

10-08-2009, 04:31 PM

Would Scythe Tiger be possible in this deck? Maybe a 1-2 of?

It's a 3/2 with Shroud: not a bad beater at all, and he can have fetchlands sacked to him.

FoulQ

10-08-2009, 04:51 PM

whats this decks answer to a tutored Progenitus , I have atleast 2 bant decks and 1 green deck using this combo.

What's your bant deck's answer to a zoo rush? This deck wins fast enough that it can often ignore the turn 2 clock that those bant decks present. Elves is a little different but that's why we have sideboards. But hey, everyone loses to Progenitus sometimes, but it isn't format warping so we can't take too far away from zoo's core strategy.

Guevera59

10-08-2009, 05:12 PM

Would Scythe Tiger be possible in this deck? Maybe a 1-2 of?

It's a 3/2 with Shroud: not a bad beater at all, and he can have fetchlands sacked to him.

No? Sacing doesn't target so you can't say you're sacing a fetch and then in response sac it again to get a land. You would then have to sacrifice another land. Also, the card blows. Losing a land is always devastating in a game that revolves around tempo, especially when he's just blocked by a Goyf.

MMogg

10-08-2009, 05:19 PM

Goblin Guide and Scythe Tiger were discussed around pp 59-61 in this thread. I believe the problem with comparing GG to Kird Ape is that a lot of people are playing fewer if any Kird Apes and are relying on Lavamancer for their :r: drop.

As for Scythe Tiger, most people agreed that sacrificing lands in the current build is a bad bad idea. Also, by midgame (or even turn three), people would rather play Knight or Thoctar than a 3/2, even if it has shroud.

It seems like the heart of this deck of 4 Nacatl, Pridemage and Goyf are the only consistent auto include 4 ofs (regarding creatures, that is) and the rest is kind of up to personal or metagame choices. I don't think a lot of these choices can exactly be settled through discussion or testing since people have widely varying opinions. A lot of people swear by Knights while others still prefer Thoctar, and the same is true with Lavamancer. That's a great thing about Zoo, it's easily adaptable to be either more agrressive (almost like Goyf Sligh) or more controlling with a lot of utility creatures.

The same debate and choice comes when discussing burn spells, like Fireblast or Price of Progress. It seems like consensus on some key cards is impossible, but that's what makes this deck fun and great IMHO. [/rambling]

Bongo

10-09-2009, 06:21 AM

Hey guys, I need some help.

I tested the Zoo version that won the Starcity 5k, but I ran into some problems. Namely, I've had problems resolving Fireblast, especially against decks with Stifle and Wasteland. Even when I could, I often didn't want to sacrifice two lands, unless I had Sylvan Library out to dig for more.

I'm also not sure whether Wooly Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary is better in the 3-mana slot. Do people side Relic of Progenitus against Zoo?
Also, is Jitte better in the maindeck or in the sideboard? In my limited experience, it was very swingy. It's clearly great if you can connect, but I lost a lot of tempo when my creature got destroyed in response to the equip.

humppa

10-09-2009, 07:24 AM

I've had problems resolving Fireblast, especially against decks with Stifle and Wasteland. Even when I could, I often didn't want to sacrifice two lands, unless I had Sylvan Library out to dig for more.

Simple solution - side out fireblast agains those (mana denied) decks.

hungryLIKEALION

10-10-2009, 01:23 PM

So, I'm playing in the 5k this Sunday and I'm trying to figure out the build I want to run. These are the cards I know i'm running;

4x Heath
4x foothills
2x mire
3x plateau
2x taiga
2x Savannah
1x plains
1x forest
1x mountain
1x horizon canopy

4x nacatl
4x tarmogoyf
4x pridemage
2x kird ape
2x figure
3x grim lavamancer

4x bolt
4x helix
4x path
2x library
1x jitte

So that's fifty five cards, leaving me with five spaces to fill. I'd like a 3 drop, but I'm worried that I'll want to play relic tomorrow so I'm anxious about running kotr. So I may try thoctar, even though I still think it's the weaker card. So 2x thoctar leaves me with three slots, and I'm trying to choose between fireblast and chain lightning. I feel like chain is more my play style, especially with the expected metagame.

I'm not yet sure which way I'll go.

Then there's the sideboard. I'm expecting a significant amount of goblins and zoo, so I'm looking at something like this;

2x kgrip
1x hedgemage
4x relic
4x stp
4x gaddock teeg

my one friend says he thinks combo may make a big showing, so Iight throw a few silences on my sb over some stps, or some chokes over some stps. I'm not really sure yet.

Anyone else playing in the five k? What are your thoughts?

MMogg

10-11-2009, 12:05 AM

@ hungryLIKEALION, Chain Lightning will make your Goyfs bigger sooner, without relying on your opponents. Of course, they could also make opposing Goyfs bigger. I think Fireblast is best against control, so unless you're expecting lots of control, I'd choose Chain Lightning.

ZaMo

10-11-2009, 07:12 AM

I'd play 2 Jitte total (main+side), if I were to expect many creature decks (mirror, goblins, w/e).
Besides that, I play the same creature setup (+2 Thoctar), while having 3 PoP main (due to metagame reasons).

Looking forward to read your experience on 5K.

Svenyboy

10-11-2009, 11:33 AM

What do you think about Magma Jet? I think it is outdated in Zoo. Lightning Helix and Chain Lightning is definitely better. For example this build:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
-> I think Magma Jet isn't strong enough and a very bad burnspell. Furthermore I play with 2 Horizon Canopy in my land base and they do their Job better than Jet.

Dr.AgOn

10-11-2009, 01:38 PM

I have to disagree here, bitchtoken. Magma Jet is quite horrible as a burn spell, but it can still handle everythink from lackey to confidant and doesn't concede to countertop that easily as a chain lightning does. furthermore, it's most important ability lets you scry and gets rid of those two lands on top you don't want to see and searches for threats as efficient as library does. Canopy on the other hand is a nonbasic land where we already have more than enough of.
just my two cents.
peace

TotallySweet

10-11-2009, 02:08 PM

I would contest that Jet gets countered just as easily due to the prevalence of spells for two to flip, not as much as spells for one, but spell snare hits jet so we calls it even.

@hungryLIKEALION:
I had the same deal, 5 slots left and a lot of ideas on what to put there. I eventually decided on 3x Fireblast and 2x Fork. Call me janky if you wish but it's been amazing for me. Forking a Fireblast has surprised many an opponent at 8, it acts like a more expensive path/bolt/helix #5&6, and it's just incredibly fun to copy shit like fact or fiction and vindicate.

Snief

10-12-2009, 07:38 PM

-> I think Magma Jet isn't strong enough and a very bad burnspell. Furthermore I play with 2 Horizon Canopy in my land base and they do their Job better than Jet.

Horizon Canopy don´t do the job better imo. Magma Jet is not the best burn spell - in fact it´s quite horrible for that - but more important it´s a cantrip in this deck. You should look at it as a mix of ponder and shock. :confused: Horizon Canopy can´t be countered, but you could always find another land which is quite unlikely with Magma Jet. I would test it before you cut it.

jimmerz213

10-12-2009, 07:49 PM

Horizon Canopy don´t do the job better imo. Magma Jet is not the best burn spell - in fact it´s quite horrible for that - but more important it´s a cantrip in this deck. You should look at it as a mix of ponder and shock. :confused: Horizon Canopy can´t be countered, but you could always find another land which is quite unlikely with Magma Jet. I would test it before you cut it.

In my playing, Ive found horizon canopy to be way better than magma jet for a couple reasons.

1) its a card in your hand rather than manipulating. Sure, you could draw a land, but you could also draw that clutch burn spell/creature to swing the game in your favor.
2) Knight of the Reliquary. Not only does she find the land, she gets bigger when you use it. Its win win in my book.

Canopy can be stifled too, for what thats worth, but all in all I like it more than jet.

hungryLIKEALION

10-12-2009, 09:41 PM

1) its a card in your hand rather than manipulating. Sure, you could draw a land, but you could also draw that clutch burn spell/creature to swing the game in your favor.

And when you do draw the land, it still gets you past that land with a draw you wouldn't have otherwise had.

However, I think comparing canopy with magma jet is kind of silly. If you're going to compare magma jet to something, you compare it to Sylvan Library. Which it's not better than.

Valtrix

10-12-2009, 10:40 PM

Somebody said it best a while back in the thread, something along the lines of, "Zoo does not need overcosted burn attached to a poor library manipulation ability." I completely agree with that sentiment.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-13-2009, 12:17 AM

Now all we need is someone to bring up the STP/PTE debate again. Let's keep this rolling Goblins thread!!! Oh wait, i mean Zoo thread.

FoulQ

10-13-2009, 12:54 AM

The funniest part about it was, the whole magma jet was started by a guy who didn't like magma jet.

Horizon Canopy and Magma Jet are two entirely different things, like hungryLIKEALION pointed out. Even with the Sylvan Library comparison, Sylvan Library helps sculpt your hand and focus your strategies against late-game decks, while magma jet..um...

Magma jet is great for burn decks because: They need the 2 damage because of philosophy of fire (they need gas), but the 4/60 in the deck allows the burn player to dig for the finisher (fireblast/PoP), or the third crucial land for flamebreak or a 2cc + 1cc. Burn is a philosophy of fire deck in its purest form, zoo is not, and zoo does not necessarily need to dig for finishers like a combo deck (aka burn). You can call me a douchebag for quoting flores articles (I'm assuming he wrote it), but I think it applies really well to why magma jet is good in burn and bad in zoo.

Okay, I'm done now with discussing something already discussed 400 times.

Valtrix

10-13-2009, 01:30 AM

Yeah, well if we learn anything from school it's that repetition is the only way for things to set in. I also don't think it's horrible to have older points brought up again. We'd like people to read the thread, but realistically we can't expect everybody to do that, so it's not hard to give a quick answer. However, bringing up old points can also be useful, since I've found that looking back at old ideas helps me focus again on the purpose of where the deck I'm working on is at.

crow_mw

10-13-2009, 11:21 AM

There are three ZOO decks in top 16 of StarCityGames 5k. No reports / observations / thoughts ?

hungryLIKEALION

10-13-2009, 12:22 PM

One of those was actually goyfsligj. The other two seemed pretty standard, except for the vines of vastwood in the one list. That's a cool piece of tech! I'm excited to try it out in testing. I'm going to try it in my 3 fireblast slots.

I ended up sleeping through my alarm Sunday, so I didn't go to the 5k >_>

Jim Higginbottom

10-13-2009, 01:56 PM

Yea running 2 plateaus for wild nacatl does not a zoo deck make. SCG gives decks the wrong name about a 1/4 of the time. They'll list 2 decks with almost the same list one as fish the other as merfolk.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-13-2009, 03:21 PM

One of those was actually goyfsligj. The other two seemed pretty standard, except for the vines of vastwood in the one list. That's a cool piece of tech! I'm excited to try it out in testing. I'm going to try it in my 3 fireblast slots
I thought you said that pumps spells were just bad burn spells?

quicksilver

10-13-2009, 04:01 PM

I thought you said that pumps spells were just bad burn spells?

They are bad burn spells. Vines of vastwood is more like a counter for removal spells, with an alternate ability to pump.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-13-2009, 04:42 PM

Double green seems sucky to cast. I always want to have Plateau and Taiga in play or with my first two fetches.

DukeDemonKn1ght

10-13-2009, 05:04 PM

Double green seems sucky to cast. I always want to have Plateau and Taiga in play or with my first two fetches.

Couldn't you just replace "Plateau" with "Savannah" in that sentence and still be able to play just about everything that you wanted or needed to? I don't see why shifting the mana base slightly towards green mana production would necessarily be bad...:eyebrow:

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-13-2009, 05:08 PM

Couldn't you just replace "Plateau" with "Savannah" in that sentence and still be able to play just about everything that you wanted or needed to? I don't see why shifting the mana base slightly towards green mana production would necessarily be bad...:eyebrow:

Idk, i just think that Red is the best color in the deck, especially with the manabase. And i also don't think it's worth it to splash a bad card in the deck. I'd take Chain Lightning or hell even Magma Jet over a pump spell.

Phoenix Ignition

10-13-2009, 05:16 PM

Idk, i just think that Red is the best color in the deck, especially with the manabase. And i also don't think it's worth it to splash a bad card in the deck. I'd take Chain Lightning or hell even Magma Jet over a pump spell.

But it isn't a pump spell unless you kicker it, it's primary use is to save your creature from getting Swordsed or Pathed. Sure, it can get 2 for 1-ed if they remove your guy in response to you playing it, but if you use it in response then you can save your goyf, which is obviously very favorable.

DukeDemonKn1ght

10-13-2009, 05:16 PM

Idk, i just think that Red is the best color in the deck, especially with the manabase. And i also don't think it's worth it to splash a bad card in the deck. I'd take Chain Lightning or hell even Magma Jet over a pump spell.

Lol, yeah. Forgot to RTFC before I went suggesting changes just to accomodate Vines of Vastwood.

All I really meant was that bending the colors a little bit towards white or green wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, if there were significant gains to be made from shifting slightly away from red. After further investigation, I agree that VoV doesn't count as hugely "significant gains." Hehe.

On the other hand, it seems flexible, and I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say it's worse than Magma Jet. Tempo gains are the type of thing this deck is interested in, but Zoo's approach is often too straight-forward to support much trickery. And as people mention, the kicker is not always necessary, it's just extra gravy. I think the card honestly has potential, but I wouldn't make any crazy cuts to fit it in.

MMogg

10-13-2009, 05:23 PM

Idk, i just think that Red is the best color in the deck, especially with the manabase. And i also don't think it's worth it to splash a bad card in the deck. I'd take Chain Lightning or hell even Magma Jet over a pump spell.

The point, I imagine, is that it isn't just a pump spell, but acts as a counter to opponents' targeted removal. That buys you time/tempo. If they STP your Goyf and you Vines of Vastwood, you don't lose time having to cast another threat. Also, if it were during your attack phase, it would squeeze through that extra damage and give you the next turn's damage as well, whereas if it were StPed, you'd lose the damage from that turn and the following turn your creature would have summoning sickness. I'm guessing this is why the card is getting attention more than because of the icing-on-the-cake, optional kicker pump effect.

I agree that 2 red sources are much better than two green, but again, the kicker is optional.

Edit: damn it, I'm always too slow.

Happy Gilmore

10-13-2009, 08:04 PM

The Vines were excellent all day, But they were primarily for the mirror match. The double green is easier than you might think to achieve, and its primarily role is as a protection spell, if they use removal and you have GG in response they can take much much more than they were expecting.

I finished at 5-2-1, one win away from top 8, but unfortunately with one more loss I didnt even make t16, I finished at 22 for the day.

hungryLIKEALION

10-13-2009, 11:03 PM

@baileyarch-vines isn't a pump spell, it's a counter spell that happens to have pump attached. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm looking forward to trying it.

Thor

10-14-2009, 04:52 PM

@baileyarch-vines isn't a pump spell, it's a counter spell that happens to have pump attached.

So the kicker is enough to make Avoid Fate playable? It is still a dead draw without any critters out. I could see where the "fetch Savanah" play might hurt you if your playing fireblast , but other than thatit seems fine. I haven't tested it yet, and it could be great. I'm just hesitant about pump spells.

ScatmanX

10-14-2009, 05:39 PM

Is Engeniered Explosives a good sideboard option AGAINS'T zoo?

quicksilver

10-14-2009, 05:42 PM

I think that depends on your deck. But I've run it and it's been ok. It's nothing amazing, sometimes you will 2 for 1. Sometimes you will one for one but you spent 2 more mana than they did. It's fine but if I were to play something specifically for zoo I think there are better cards.

kkoie

10-15-2009, 10:33 AM

I have been meaning to give Zoo a serious try, since I've been frustrated with other decks. So from studying the deck and this thread, I wonder what the exact advantage would be to using vines in a deck like this? My impression is that this deck tends to want to be proactive rather than reactive, and vines is a reactive spell. What would the exact advantage be of using vines over something like, lightning bolt, lightning helix, or swords to plowshares? I'm assuming that if you threw in a couple of vines of the vastwood, it would replace some of those spells rather than a creature.

hungryLIKEALION

10-15-2009, 11:00 AM

It would never replace those spells. The spells is it would replace are the last few spells in the deck, probably fireblast. That's where I intend to test it.

Nelis

10-15-2009, 11:24 AM

hungryLIKEALION

10-15-2009, 11:30 AM

Goblins is one of zoo's best matchups. I don't think pyrokinesis is really that great. I'm not sure what you should use. Pyro is okay, but there's probably something better.

jazzykat

10-15-2009, 12:12 PM

If you can get to 5 mana then maybe patriarch's bidding?

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-15-2009, 12:20 PM

Nelis

10-15-2009, 01:21 PM

Goblins is one of zoo's best matchups. I don't think pyrokinesis is really that great. I'm not sure what you should use. Pyro is okay, but there's probably something better.

The only thing I can come up with is maybe mixing Perish with Pyrokinesis since the bigger creatures are always green. I do play 4 weirdings as well.

@ Jazzycat: I have actually been thinking about that one I might try it out sometime.

troopatroop

10-15-2009, 03:01 PM

I don't understand the people in this thread. At all.

It seems like a damn band wagon. Maybe if someone will suggest a new shitty card for the deck, people will start going crazy over that too.

Vines was used in Goyf Sligh if my memory serves me correctly. And it is in fact Avoid Fate with pump!!! Which means, it's a bad card for Zoo. It's situational. that's why we have burn. I could see maybe making the sideboard against, REMOVAL.DEC!

I have class now so i'll finish ranting later.

I don't understand you. Vines counters targetted removal for G. This is good for a variety of reasons, one of which is the rogue factor. Vines is a new card, so it should be an unexpected card for your opponent. That matters, especially since things like STP are usually critical for the control players survival, especially against Zoo's creatures. I agree with you, that it probably doesn't make every maindeck ever, but thats what the card does. It can't see regular play, because the opponent will start playing around it, significantly weakening the card. I can see Vines being VERY good in some situations/matchups. Save my Tarmogoyf for G? Obviously good sometimes.

You didnt even make a point. Someone does well with the card, and all of a sudden "We're all on the bandwagon!". Clearly it worked for him, so what's the issue?

hungryLIKEALION

10-15-2009, 03:15 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-15-2009, 04:18 PM

So what you're saying is we should never talk about trying new cards before dismissing them, so the deck can never improve, because that is far better than occasionally talking about a card that could turn out to be suboptimal.

You're right. I'll never test a new card again.

Thank you. I mean you guys can keep having no critters to target and have dead cards in your hand if you want. I'm gonna keep running burn, and Bolting to the face for the win.

And yes, that's EXACTLY what i'm saying. Jesus Christ, putting words in my mouth means nothing.

I could see the card run in the SB MAYBE! I already said that though, so of course i have no point!

People dismiss Rancor totally nowadays, and this card is very similar. Sure your creature might die with Rancor, but you get it back. With this card you ONLY want to save it for creature removal because there is always the chance you will get 2 for 1. That in itself takes away from the decks gameplan.

And hell yes, Savannah Taiga is worse that Taiga Plateau.

troopatroop

10-15-2009, 06:23 PM

People dismiss Rancor totally nowadays, and this card is very similar. Sure your creature might die with Rancor, but you get it back. With this card you ONLY want to save it for creature removal because there is always the chance you will get 2 for 1. That in itself takes away from the decks gameplan.

And hell yes, Savannah Taiga is worse that Taiga Plateau.

Rancor and Vines are very different, and you know it. Rancor will always open you up to a two for one. Vines will only do that if you're an idiot and walk right into it. I'd only use it as a pump spell if I knew he couldnt kill my guy in respose/ if it was a brutal combat trick (and my guy was dying anyway). Vines saves your creature. When it's saving KOTR/Thoctar/Goyf/Nacatl from STP, its even better than a burn spell. STP is such an important card against this deck that it's logical to look for the simplest solution.

Obfuscate Freely

10-15-2009, 08:10 PM

Those of us from NoVa who played Zoo in Philly (there were four of us in total) played a pair of Vines of Vastwood in the sideboard. They were primarily intended to be boarded in against other Zoo decks, and generally did their job pretty well.

The mirror match almost always revolves around drawing, and in turn removing, Tarmogoyfs, Thoctars, and Knights. This is because they are the only creatures large enough to attack profitably, and because they are difficult to remove with burn spells. This is why boarding additional Swords/Path effects is a viable way to improve the matchup.

Vines of Vastwood is another way to gain an edge on this front, since it protects your fatties from your opponent's removal spells. It can also act as a pseudo-removal spell itself, by buffing up a smaller creature to outmatch your opponent's fatty in combat, although such a play can open you up to a two-for-one.

When played intelligently, a Vines will at the very least draw out another removal spell, which will open the door for the next fatty you play. In the best case, an opponent will wait until your attack to attempt to remove your creature (after all, this is often the correct play), and a kicked Vines will totally blow them out. Either way, the card is relevant to what is most important in the matchup.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-15-2009, 09:16 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-16-2009, 11:43 AM

I feel like bringing new life to this thread.

So i ask this, since Goyf Sligh and Zoo blur the lines of similarity way too much nowadays, what about the playstyles of both? Which playstyle is better?

In my opinion Zoo is a bit slower than Goyf Sligh because of the larger creature count. But, alot of hybrid decks have been posted on here. I've tried a few of them a few times, and i always finding myself wanting to play the heavier burn builds like i do Zoo. It makes for awkward thinking processes.

Thoughts?

Happy Gilmore

10-17-2009, 12:49 PM

What would you guys consider the best tactic for me as a R/b Goblin player to fight Zoo after SBing?

Or more specifically; is Pyrokinesis really good enough vs Zoo. Is it not most times a 2-for-1 since a lot of Zoo's creatures have a toughness of 3?

Take up Voodoo, its an aweful matchup for you. Seriously though, run Perish.

I feel like bringing new life to this thread.

So i ask this, since Goyf Sligh and Zoo blur the lines of similarity way too much nowadays, what about the playstyles of both? Which playstyle is better?

In my opinion Zoo is a bit slower than Goyf Sligh because of the larger creature count. But, alot of hybrid decks have been posted on here. I've tried a few of them a few times, and i always finding myself wanting to play the heavier burn builds like i do Zoo. It makes for awkward thinking processes.

Thoughts?

Zoo, not even a question. Besides the fact that there are no real disadvantages to adding the 3rd color, PoP has gotten worse and worse in the last few successive tournaments. This is partially due to the new fetchlands, but also because people worry about tempo decks running Wasteland.

Not running swords effects in this format is dumb. Not running Path to Exile is dumb, that is all.

Omega

10-18-2009, 01:44 AM

I'm asking this to Zoo players

Sylvan library seem to be played more than Black nowadays (at least, that's how I see things)

What are the pros/cons of Dark confidant vs Sylvan Library?

Gibsonmac

10-18-2009, 03:35 AM

I'm asking this to Zoo players

Sylvan library seem to be played more than Black nowadays (at least, that's how I see things)

What are the pros/cons of Dark confidant vs Sylvan Library?

no manip with confidant in the deck (no SDT so you hemorrhage life uncontrolably), library library lets you dig and put cards back, you only lose life for cards you keep... very useful... plus the manabase is way tighter this way...

Also, BOB is a target for swords/smother/path/etc. the library is a little more difficult to get rid of than a creature as pretty much every deck has some sort of removal, where as an enchantment is harder to deal with game 1 for sure and post-board they bring in like 2 grips at the most...

All in all, its pretty passe' to run confidants, library is much more efficient-> thats why pretty much everyone plays it.

mackaber

10-18-2009, 08:07 AM

The difference there is that in Extended zoo you run 24-ish lands because you (likely) have a playset of both KoTR/Thoctar AND a playset of Ranger of Eos. 24 lands is a HUGE difference from 21.

Just to rub it in 21 lands 14 fetches and a playset of lynxes mark my words...

Martin Juza
Pro Tour–Austin Top 8, Extended

Main Deck

60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
21 lands

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
23 creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Might of Alara
3 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
16 other spells

Sideboard

1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Yixlid Jailer
15 sideboard cards

Eldamion

10-18-2009, 12:23 PM

Hello Zoo players,

I played a 23 player legacy event yesterdays here in Berlin, Germany with maindeck Helix und Magma Jet. I finished 2nd with a 4-1 record, only loosing to the mighty Quinn which finished 1st at the end.

Back at home I checked the Coverage from Pro Tour Austin a was suprise by this little two card combo between Burn of the Gruvewillows and Punishing Fire.

What do you guys think about it in Legacy. Espacially in Zoo, when the game comes to the late game and the boards are empty, recurring burnspells seems to be a very nice option in my eyes. Your thoughts, please!

Valtrix

10-18-2009, 01:48 PM

What do you guys think about it in Legacy. Espacially in Zoo, when the game comes to the late game and the boards are empty, recurring burnspells seems to be a very nice option in my eyes. Your thoughts, please!

This seems really awful. Not only do you need to rely on both parts of this combo (because neither one is particularly good by itself), you're essentially paying 3 mana a turn for 1 damage. That seems really, really inefficient if you ask me.

e=mc^2

10-18-2009, 03:21 PM

Yesterday I played in the Jupiter Games tourney in Binghamton with over 40 other other players. I made top 4 with the following:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
2 Teeg
2 Wooly Thoctar

4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 P2E
1 Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast

3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savanah

SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Price of Progress
1 Ethersworn Cannoist
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Choke
3 Ravenous Trap

In swiss I went 5-1-0

Round 1:
Elf Prog. 1-2
I won one game with a Jitte, but I cold not find one in the other 2

Round 2:
UWb Landstill w/ CB 2-0
Maindeck Teeg wins games sometimes.

Round 3:
Bloodghast Dredge 2-1
The trap was a really good piece of hate in this matchup. The pilot was not expecting it so I was able to wreck him with it in games 2 and 3.

Round 4:
Goblins 2-1
Game 1 I got overrun by SGC tokens. 2 and 3 I killed lots of goblins and swung with Goyf.

Round 5:Affinity 2-0
Removal won the first game, and 19 points of damage from Goyf, PoP, and Fireblast on turn 5 won the second game.

Round 6:
Goyf Sligh w/ white splash: 2-0
I had more Grim Lavamancers and removal than he did.

Top 8
Suicide Black 2-0
I played more dudes than him and won.

Top 4
ANT 2-1
Even maindeck Teeg could not help me here. This is just a bad matchup.

Maindeck Teeg was an all star all day stalling landstill's big plays, Dread Returns, and opposing Fireblasts.

My sideboard however needs work. I had shushers in there, but when I wanted to side them in, all of my 2 drops were already awesome against blue decks. Maybe I can replace them with more combo hate.

braccobaldobau

10-18-2009, 05:57 PM

I am approaching to this deck, so I'm a bit noob of this archetype.
You ever considered using bloodbraid elf instead of Wooly Thoctar/knight of the reliquary ? may be an idea or not worth it?

chokin

10-18-2009, 06:37 PM

I'm no Zoo expert. Thoctar is going to be bigger than Elf. KotR is almost always bigger than Elf and grows. The best thing that Elf can do is get you a free Goyf or Fireblast. The worst it can do is give you a Kird Ape. And it costs more. Ranger of Eos was played briefly in one list (I don't remember which), but it's not really played anymore. The reason why it was good was because you could get 2 3/3s AND the 2/2 Ranger. Or I suppose you could get removal in the form of Grim Lavamancer.

TotallySweet

10-18-2009, 07:16 PM

You can't get a free fireblast off of the Elf (6 > 4), and 4 mana is more than you can safely assume you'll get. After much debate Knight vs Thoctar is a matter of taste.

hungryLIKEALION

10-18-2009, 07:16 PM

DragoFireheart

10-18-2009, 09:12 PM

See, I don't know why some are considering KotR: Sure, he CAN get big, but all it takes is one timely Relic or Crypt and he gets whacked. We already have Gofy: we really don't want more creature relying on the graveyard. Also, you can't run him with Grim Lavamancer (assuming you wanted to).

Thoctar may not be able to grow as large and costs three colors, but he's always a 5/4.

hungryLIKEALION

10-18-2009, 09:28 PM

I've said this eight million times already, but I'll say it again. Removing non-land cards from your yard with lavamancer is savage tech.

I'd give you a more serious response, but really, just rtft.

DragoFireheart

10-18-2009, 09:43 PM

I've said this eight million times already, but I'll say it again. Removing non-land cards from your yard with lavamancer is savage tech.

I'd give you a more serious response, but really, just rtft.

You may also make your Gofys smaller. Good if the other person is using Gofys: not so good otherwise. You're also assuming that we actually have the option everytime we want our Lavamancer to mini-Kamehameha Wave something.

FoulQ

10-18-2009, 10:02 PM

Can the freaking discussion about thoctar versus knight just end? It has been settled, it goes down to personal taste and isn't a YES or NO answer.

I'm also wondering why people are bringing up extended lists?? This format is completely different, just because they both play a lot of similar cards and this deck was basically ported from extended at one point does not make them similar at all since they are in completely different formats. We might be able to gather some insight from extended lists but relying on them as part of an argument is really, really weak. Grove of the Burnwillows? Bloodbraid Elf? What is going on here

hungryLIKEALION

10-18-2009, 10:13 PM

I've played all three creatures in my deck since the day kotr came out and to this day have never had a situation where their disynergy has cost me a game. I have, however, had at least 20-25 games where kotr's ability to be fucking ridiculous has won the game where thoctar would have been nigh worthless.

Seriously, though, just read the thread. We've discussed knight so many times it's gotten unbelievably old...

On another note, I played in a small legacy tournament today and won with the following list;

21 land (1 canopy, 10 fetches, 3/2/2 plateau/taiga/savannah and 3 basics)
4 nacatl
4 goyf
4 pridemage
3 mancer
2 ape
2 figure
2 kotr

4 bolt
4 helix
4 path
2 library
1 jitte
2 reckless charge

SB:
3 teeg
4 samurai of the pale curtain
2 engineered explosives
2 jitte
2 krosan grip
2 stp

Obfuscate Freely's analysis of the 1-main deck jitte appeals to me. It worked out pretty well today. The only really novel thing about my maindeck today was the return of two reckless charges, something that I used to run when I first started playing this deck. I've missed playing with it lately, so I figured I'd try running it again. It's still just as good as I remembered it being, allowing some very quick clocks when you have two one drops in hand. Although it's inclusion does make me want two more kird apes over the figures to take better advantage of it. I don't know if I'll play it again next time I play the deck, but it was very good today... after all, getting six damage out of one card (Or more when you factor in the haste attack you otherwise wouldn't have gotten) is nice. Plus, it's a sorcery, which is nice for goyf sometimes.

The sideboard is far more interesting. Last month I lost to Dredge in the swiss and top 4, so I put a playset of samurai in my sb for it this week. Good thing I did, since I once again played against the deck, though a different pilot. EE was the other interesting thing. I've found it to be very good in the mirror when you're falling behind or against cbtop decks since you can play it for 2 with 4 mana and effectively neuter cbalance.

Anyway, quick rundown, I beat naya zoo with thoctars and bloodbraid (2-0), Elf combo (2-1), dredge (2-1, samurai+teeg is yay :D) a jund style deck with bloodbraids, leeches, and stuff kinda remniscent of what's popular in t2 nowadays, then cut to top 4, beating dredge again (2-1 again, samurai's still awesome) and then stax (Samurai was good here too, but I only one because he kept a terrible hand g1 saying he "didn't feel like shuffling.")

I'd write more but I gotta finish an essay for tomorrow. EE's pretty cool in the SB though, it's really versatile for a lot of matchups and I think it's worth testing more.

chokin

10-19-2009, 05:57 AM

You can't get a free fireblast off of the Elf (6 > 4), and 4 mana is more than you can safely assume you'll get. After much debate Knight vs Thoctar is a matter of taste.

Doh, my mistake.

@ Drago
KotR does make Relic/Crypt hurt a lot more, but it doesn't make us severely graveyard dependent. If you're actively TRYING to make him bigger than a 6/6, you're doing it wrong. You can definitly run him and Grim Lavamancer.

Thoctar is a solid creature, just a pinch harder to cast. He has a naturally large butt, which helps.

As previously stated, it comes down to taste.

I've been happily running 2 KotR and 2 Jitte in my Zoo deck. I haven't gotten around to trying out Sylvan Library though. How is it?

Happy Gilmore

10-19-2009, 09:59 AM

Doh, my mistake.

@ Drago
KotR does make Relic/Crypt hurt a lot more, but it doesn't make us severely graveyard dependent. If you're actively TRYING to make him bigger than a 6/6, you're doing it wrong. You can definitly run him and Grim Lavamancer.

Thoctar is a solid creature, just a pinch harder to cast. He has a naturally large butt, which helps.

As previously stated, it comes down to taste.

I've been happily running 2 KotR and 2 Jitte in my Zoo deck. I haven't gotten around to trying out Sylvan Library though. How is it?

Its a card that blue decks normally have to counter or they lose. Its also a beast in the mirror match.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-20-2009, 11:57 AM

@hungryLIKEALION: Kudos on Reckless Charge being ran. I remember your first decklist had those in it.

Is Samurai of the Pale Curtain really worth it? It doesn't hit their library which makes it seem worse. It nails Ichorids and reanimated stuff but by the time they reanimate FKZ you're dead anyway ya know? Plus the double white makes it an eyesore. I ran Serra Avenger way back in the day before Nacatl was printed and the double white was an issue then.

quicksilver

10-20-2009, 01:07 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-20-2009, 03:05 PM

Did not think that one through.. haha:laugh:

hungryLIKEALION

10-20-2009, 09:23 PM

Yeah, I was feeling nostalgiac for charge, and after playing with it again I still feel like it's a viable card, though not as more than a three of, and I still kinda don't want it as more than a two of. It's kind of like the singleton jitte; you don't ever need it, but having it is a nice perk despite not wanting to topdeck it when it's dead.

I'm not going to pretend like samurai is the ultimate anti dredge card, because clearly it is not. The night before the tournament I had slept over at my girlfriend's place so I didn't have all my cards with me. I saw two people playing dredge and had a set of samurais at hand so I just threw them on the sb. While they don't completely neuter dredge the way other more powerful hate cards do, they also have some advantages over those cards. One, they help give you a clock, which is very important since it gives them less time to draw an answer. They can still dredge and get narcomoebas to dread return with, but samurai still places numerous restrictions on how they have to play; they can't get zombies, and their ichorids only come back once, which is nice. I don't have a problem with double W since I run the deck as a primary rw deck with a g splash compared to how some do rg with a w splash. I usually want two sources of w available anyway since i want to be able to path and helix in the same turn, whereas one G source is fine since I'm usually only casting one G requiring creature per turn.

The other thing is that even when none of the cards are the perfect hate cards, having 11 cards to board in in a matchup can be pretty savage tech.

Also, Samurai was good against stax too since he couldn't recur wastelands or factories and his armageddons went from being one sided to actually being fair. That was great. Finally, being an effective 3/3 creature was good for any matchups where I needed another beater or where I needed to side out dead PTEs (Not that I played that matchup today, but you never know when tendrils will show up).

kkoie

10-21-2009, 07:26 AM

21 land (1 canopy, 10 fetches, 3/2/2 plateau/taiga/savannah and 3 basics)
4 nacatl
4 goyf
4 pridemage
3 mancer
2 ape
2 figure
2 kotr

4 bolt
4 helix
4 path
2 library
1 jitte
2 reckless charge

SB:
3 teeg
4 samurai of the pale curtain
2 engineered explosives
2 jitte
2 krosan grip
2 stp

I just noticed your list is only 59 cards. Whats missing?

hungryLIKEALION

10-21-2009, 08:07 AM

I just noticed your list is only 59 cards. Whats missing?

oh yeah, didn't notice that. It was a third figure of destiny was the 60th card. Sorry bout that.

kkoie

10-21-2009, 10:32 AM

Really? Thats interesting. How frequently have you been able to find the open mana to pump a figure? I've put together a list that I've been messing around w/ and I went with only two figures because I didn't want to get stuck in a scenario where I might have more than 1 figure and not enough mana to pump into each of them.

e=mc^2

10-21-2009, 12:43 PM

Currently my list includes 2 maindeck Teegs. Since the ANT MU sucks a lot is it worth devoting some sideboard slots to it, or should I just take a loss and load the SB with cards to affect MU's I have a chance of winning?

What MU's are worth sidebording against in an unknown meta?

Is Fallout worth slots for random aggro, or should I just stick with Jitte to win?

Is Shusher good enough against CB, or do you need K-Grips?

hungryLIKEALION

10-21-2009, 05:03 PM

To me, Fogure is a tool you use to avoid overextending. Since he alone makes for a pretty good threat, you can just keep using your mana on him instead of playing out extra dudes and getting blown out by deed/wrath/explosives. Plus he's a great topdeck in the mid/late game since he turns into an 8/8 flyer.

alfthefurryalien

10-21-2009, 05:23 PM

i srsly doubt that he makes it an 8/8 very often... what is your mana base that you come close to haveing 6 R/W lands at a time?

hungryLIKEALION

10-21-2009, 09:27 PM

My mana base is above. You're right that he doesn't make it there too often, but I did get there one game in my last tournament to swing for the win over an army of opposing creatures that would have been lethal the following turn. The fact that he's capable of becoming such a huge threat is what makes him important, even if he isn't capable of it every game. But when the game stalls out, he can be the perfect topdeck.

Also, another cool trick with him; If you have him at a 2/2 and three lands in play, you can swing him into your opponent's RWM or 3/4 goyf without any fear, since it's very unlikely they'll block him. It's like a free shock every turn.

You still have to take care of that RWM though. ;p

nateo

10-21-2009, 10:20 PM

This seems really awful. Not only do you need to rely on both parts of this combo (because neither one is particularly good by itself), you're essentially paying 3 mana a turn for 1 damage. That seems really, really inefficient if you ask me.

If you're aiming it at your opponent, then yes it is very inefficient. On the other hand, if you aim it at their creatures to remove blockers, then attack through with your large beaters... well the numbers can look quite a bit better.

The part about the combo I don't care for is relying on grove of the burnwillows. Wasteland shuts down your combo in a hurry and makes punishing fire quite inefficient (unless your opponent is casting lighting helix I suppose).

Valtrix

10-21-2009, 10:21 PM

If you're aiming it at your opponent, then yes it is very inefficient. On the other hand, if you aim it at their creatures to remove blockers, then attack through with your large beaters... well the numbers can look quite a bit better.

We call this grim lavamancer.

nateo

10-22-2009, 03:53 PM

We call this grim lavamancer.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just saying that you can't really evaluate the combo purely on the strength of it being aimed at the opponent's head.

b4r0n

10-22-2009, 04:27 PM

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just saying that you can't really evaluate the combo purely on the strength of it being aimed at the opponent's head.

So in other words, the only decks you would want the combo for would be decks running small creatures like Goblins, Merfolk, and maybe the mirror. Goblins and Merfolk are already really good matchups, and probably don't need the combo to make them any better. Plus, both decks run Wasteland anyways, which would mitigate the effectiveness of the combo. For the mirror, the combo might be good. I'm not sure it's the best option though; it doesn't seem worth the number of slots that it would take up.

Gibsonmac

10-22-2009, 05:55 PM

Yeah it's horrible in legacy, people need to realize this is a DIFFERENT format than extended.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-22-2009, 07:06 PM

Extended Zoo has to deal with like, fucking Ghost Quarter. OH NO!!!

They don't know the fury Wasteland holds.

In other news. I've given Zoo a break for a little bit. I'll be back when i get tired of countering my opponent's deck with one Enchantment.

I wish Ranger of Eos was viable in Zoo :frown:

troopatroop

10-22-2009, 07:16 PM

In other news. I've given Zoo a break for a little bit. I'll be back when i get tired of countering my opponent's deck with one Enchantment.

I wish Ranger of Eos was viable in Zoo :frown:

Finally! Something we agree on. I love that card. I don't know if anyones played "star" multiplayer, but its 5 person, and you win when you kill the two people across from you. I've been playing Ranger of Eos with success there, because running out of gas is the only thing that stops Zoo from winning. Two Wild Nacatls goes a long way in that respect. Not that Zoo is really a multiplayer deck, but Ranger fits there for sure.

Loxodon Baileyarch

10-22-2009, 07:19 PM

Finally! Something we agree on. I love that card.
He is just insane card advantage. Possible SB card, if Zoo consistently hit 4 mana..

Just another reason Extended shouldn't be compared to Legacy.

Gibsonmac

10-22-2009, 11:39 PM

He is just insane card advantage. Possible SB card, if Zoo consistently hit 4 mana..

Just another reason Extended shouldn't be compared to Legacy.

Exactly man, its as different as legacy and standard. also multiplayer is a completely different format, so I think in a 4+ person environment, ranger would be pretty solid.

Although I have never tested it, ranger (on paper) seems like it wouldn't be very competitive, although it would most likely get through countertop, the dudes he tutors for probably would not, and you're left with a 3/2 that dies to opposing goyf/factory/anything.

HAVE HEART

10-22-2009, 11:44 PM

Just to rub it in 21 lands 14 fetches and a playset of lynxes mark my words...

Martin Juza
Pro Tour–Austin Top 8, Extended

Main Deck

60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
21 lands

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
23 creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Might of Alara
3 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
16 other spells

Sideboard

1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Yixlid Jailer
15 sideboard cards

I am not sure if it has been said already, but Martin Juza 6-0'ed the draft portion of Pro Tour: Austin, which means he was able to draw the last three rounds into Top Eight. He effectively dodged the best Extended decks on Day Two because he did so well on Day One and during the first draft of Day Two. The format for the Pro Tour was five rounds Extended followed by three rounds Draft for Day One. Day Two started with three rounds Draft, followed by five rounds Extended.