[Deck] Zoo

[Micki]

Hello

On the 31:st of october there will be a big Legacy tournament (actually champs) here in Finland and here is the deck I'm thinking of playing;

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
2x Horizon Canopy
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Figure of Destiny
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Lighting Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
3x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Crypt/Trap/Relic
3x Krosan Grip
2x Price of Pogress
2x Choke
2x Vexing Shusher

I feel that the MD is just about as good as it gets for me since debating on Knigts vs. Thoctar and how many Mancers and so on is (as many before me has stated) pretty much down to personal playing style. The biggest issue (MD)for me is that I would like to have room for some fieblasts but I just don't know what to cut. Helix has been working pretty well for me so they will stay and I don't want to cut Chains either. I also feel that though I only run one Figure, it would be quite stupid to sac the lands I need to make him bigger.
However the bigger question is about the sideboard. Just as e=mc^2 earlier I would love to get some thoughts about what to put in the board when I don't really know what I'm up against. I think there will be a lot of tribal decks and different kinds of threshold but I'm not sure. Since I don't play any combo hate MD, it also seems stupid to use half my SB for a MU that is almost lost anyhow. Thank You in advance for every suggestion!

Greetings from a rainy Finland!

[jazzykat]

You can always play 1 fireblast in the main. That way you are much more sure to have mountains to cast it, and it can potentially "come out of no-where" to steal a game.

[bulaxas]

what about punishing fire+ grove of burnwillows?

[Gibsonmac]

what about punishing fire+ grove of burnwillows?

OMG, seriously, Different format than extended... Bad in this deck, way better options to work with, 2 damage can kill BOB and factories, and thats about it, grove is a wasteland target then you're left with a shitty burn spell, I mean we don't play magma jet and that has actual utility, you need 5 mana (3 red) do do 4 damage and kill anything relevant, and targeting the head is even worse.

Canopy is much better than grove, drawing cards is great when you don't need the land, grove is horrible by itself, punishing fire is horrible by itself, its just a bad idea in general. and its very vulnerable as a combo in legacy, mainly wasteland, all this has been discussed, there is a thread about it, its bad. there are better and more efficient options

[inkaras]

Hello there,
locally we play legacy every friday so I get to play a lot of zoo. However recently I am the only one left, which is nice. here is my current list.

4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x wooly thoctor
3x Grim Lavamancer

2x fireblast
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
2x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x red elemental blast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Price of Pogress
2x Choke
2x Vexing Shusher

that is off the top of my head but I am pretty sure thats the list, or fairly close to it. I have thought about recently cutting one land as sometimes I seem to get a few too many, although tonight twice I was stuck at 2 mana, not that it mattered.
Any ways I've been winning every friday for 2 months now, haven't lost 1 match, a few games no matches. My meta for the most part is aggro, with a little combo and a little control. As you might have guessed nearly every player knows my list and what I am playing the second I walk in the door, something that is a little annoying to me. For example tonight I lost to Moat and an active Morphling in game 1, happily after SB this was not a problem. Never seen a pridemage and Morphling upped the clock. This was my only loss for the night.

Round 2: Ascention / Fog deck. This was a white / blue controlly with white fog like deck. The new enchantment was bothersome in game 1 but bolts and such held it's activation off for 4 extra turns or so, eventually I won and after game 1 my SB mops him up, no contest.

Round 3: Combo, some sort of mill control deck. plays counter top which was annoying, and he gets scarcrow or something to make everything one color and mills you to death. I basicly race his janky combo he doesn't see it or I disrupt it with pride mages, and SB wise I have lots for control so it wasn't an issue.

Top 4:
Round 1: I beat some sort of B/W aggro deck, he was land screwed in game 2 and game one I just had the nuts and beat his face in.

Round 2: More Janky combo scarcrow guy, was an easy 2 wins even with counter top out both times.

Sorry for being so long winded but I want you to get a feel for what I deal with so as to advice me best :)

Other decks I often face:
canadian thresh
43 land
dredge
goblins
counter top control -- some sort of anti zoo version he says, lost to him once
but it's always very very close.
Death and taxes or some such list, seen him playing didn't face him yet.
You get the idea.
My question is this, I don't normally change my SB which is something I want to do when those players with 43 land and dredge show up. goblins also concerns me as haven't faced them in a long time and they can often race you?
thoughts and ideas on how I can change it up a little without loosing performance but while throwing a surprise my opponents way?
Also I lost a month ago in semi's to a eva green / rack deck. He milled away my hand and I never found an answer for rack believe it or not, might have been bad luck, haven't seen the kid since then.

sorry for the long post, looking for solid advice. :)

--edit:
I do play 2 fireblast main, not sure how I missed that, serves me right for cutting and pasting from somewhere else. lol
thanks for reminding me, also I was off 1 on the land I play 21.

[Gibsonmac]

No fireblast??, you could try out 2-3 main, I'd cut the helix altogether and up the chain lightning to a 3-of as well. try out knight of the reliquary, also consider cutting a fetchland, either run 3/3/3 or drop a mesa/heath, 9 seems to be the correct number.

I'm not saying your build is wrong, at all... Just offering some advice to try out, you might like it... I like the senerio 'swing with nacatl for 3, lightning bolt/chain lightning, fireblast!!' ten damage in a single turn, especially since your locals wouldn't be expecting it, also KotR is a fucking HOUSE!! (there is debate as to which is better, it comes down to preference) just try it out.

regarding SB, good idea to change/tweak for every event. if you expect Ichorid/43, deff want relic in the board, you could probly safely cut REB, the deck has alot of answers for countertop as it is (pridemage/grip/shusher/choke) seems over extending to that type of match up. Lavamancer loves to eat little gobbies for breakfast, consider 4 main and cut a fetch for it. Knight also can 'feed' the lavamancer (sacking lands, make sure you have 2 to remove.. in stand-off situations, moat, he's nice!) you could also try another jitte in the board, or even pyrokenisis for the gobo's and fish if you think it may be a problem, in that case you could drop a grip for another jitte (6 answers between md/sb is pretty solid for art/ench removal).

Just try to read the meta and plan accordingly, if you feel a particular match up gives you trouble, then obviously adjust for it accordingly, don't be afraid to tweak/try new things in the main deck to affect certain matchups. evegreen gets blown out by zoo, so it was probably a luck issue.

Anyway, try it out, a well placed/unexpected fireblast can be GG, also 6cc gets around countertop, knight could be a good change of pace (all kinds of synergies, ie. grows to fireblast, can sac lands to feed Lavamancer, can get huge in a hurry) hope this provides at least a little insight.

[inkaras]

I'll give knight a try, this weekend and see. Thoctar has always been a good performer for me, but I am always willing to try out new things.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I'll give knight a try, this weekend and see. Thoctar has always been a good performer for me, but I am always willing to try out new things.

Here it is simple. If you want more aggro for your deck, run Thoctar. If not, run Knight. Knight is slower i don't care what anyone says.

This is not some invite to debate that with me either. It's been proven time after time.

I couldn't see myself running Fireblast and Knight in the same deck. I hate Fireblast as it is, and it makes the deck fast, but it's too damned awkward running both. The extra power or two you get when you cast Thoctar third turn is worth it.

But hey this is all the rambling of Loxodon Baileyarch! Stifling shitty innovations to Zoo since Xmas 08.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Here it is simple. If you want more aggro for your deck, run Thoctar. If not, run Knight. Knight is slower i don't care what anyone says.

This is not some invite to debate that with me either. It's been proven time after time.

I couldn't see myself running Fireblast and Knight in the same deck. I hate Fireblast as it is, and it makes the deck fast, but it's too damned awkward running both. The extra power or two you get when you cast Thoctar third turn is worth it.

But hey this is all the rambling of Loxodon Baileyarch! Stifling shitty innovations to Zoo since Xmas 08.Didn't you say you were going to leave this thread to go discuss CB top?

How exactly is running Fireblast is the same deck as Knight more awkward than running it in the same deck as Thoctar? Care to actully explain your outlandish claims for once?

[Gibsonmac]

yeah? at least KotR gets a +2 boost of it, but its all gravy, this deck rocks the house anyway, thoctar/knight whatever your flavor (as long as you've given the good old college try to both) it's all good.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Didn't you say you were going to leave this thread to go discuss CB top?

How exactly is running Fireblast is the same deck as Knight more awkward than running it in the same deck as Thoctar? Care to actully explain your outlandish claims for once?

Easy there tiger, don't get all your panties in a wad. You take everything i say way too personally. I didn't even mention you in the post. I also said that I'm done PLAYING Zoo for a while. I still like to post in this thread.

I think it's more awkward because Fireblast is a speedy card in my opinion, and Knight is a slow card. I think both are fine cards, but i would rather go turn 3 Thoctar, turn 4 swing Fireblast to get the extra points from Thoctar.

Having to activate Knight in some situations to get him going slows the deck down. That's all I'm saying. Slow and fast cards make for awkward situations where you have to choose between win now and win later. Zoo likes to win now.

@Gibsonmac: Thanks for being chill about everything. I ran a 1/1 split of Thoctar and Knight for a few weeks before i went on vacation from Zoo. They both rock.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Not to shoot a hole in that argument, but if on turn 4 you swing with a 3drop and cast fireblast, kotr will only be smaller than thoctar I you did not crack a single fetchland; I don't know about you, but I usually crack two fetchlands by turn 4. Thus, knight will more often than not be larger than thoctar for that swing.

Really, it's not about taking you too personally, it's about you coming into the thread in an arrogant tone, calling other people's ideas shitty without backing it up, and then pulling back and saying LOL IM JOKING LOL YOURE OVERREACTING when somebody calls you out on it.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Not to shoot a hole in that argument, but if on turn 4 you swing with a 3drop and cast fireblast, kotr will only be smaller than thoctar I you did not crack a single fetchland; I don't know about you, but I usually crack two fetchlands by turn 4. Thus, knight will more often than not be larger than thoctar for that swing.

Really, it's not about taking you too personally, it's about you coming into the thread in an arrogant tone, calling other people's ideas shitty without backing it up, and then pulling back and saying LOL IM JOKING LOL YOURE OVERREACTING when somebody calls you out on it.

I never said his idea was shitty. I was making a pun towards myself. Get it?

And you would have to Fireblast first, THEN swing, and i don't know anybody that plays spells in their first mainphase. It actually seems terrible.

And you would have to get three fetches by turn four to even match Thoctar in any other scenario, aside from mana denial. I mean people draw those kind of hands sometimes but the odds don't seem likely.

[hungryLIKEALION]

And you would have to Fireblast first, THEN swing, and i don't know anybody that plays spells in their first mainphase. It actually seems terrible.Or just Fireblast after no blocks are declared.


And you would have to get three fetches by turn four to even match Thoctar in any other scenario, aside from mana denial. I mean people draw those kind of hands sometimes but the odds don't seem likely.
I draw them plenty often, but then I do run 10 fetches and a canopy. Even still, the only time Thoctar is genuinely better is on turn three and he's only a two of. I rarely land knight on turn three, so I don't feel like that's as important.

[Forbiddian]

Hello there,
locally we play legacy every friday so I get to play a lot of zoo. However recently I am the only one left, which is nice. here is my current list.

...

Any ways I've been winning every friday for 2 months now, haven't lost 1 match, a few games no matches.

...

It sounds like you're going to collapse your metagame and soon you're not going to have anyone to annihilate. You've won the tournament 8 times in a row, and people obviously aren't doing anything to adjust.

Moat and Morphling? How the hell does that beat Zoo? That's a terrible idea. Ascension... you mean Bloodchief Ascension, the most unplayable card in Zendikar?

It's sad that you're so win-greedy you want to metagame against these people. "How do I turn beating Bloodchief Ascension mill from a 99% win rate matchup to a 99.9% win rate matchup!!?! HELP!! I can't lose!"

It seems like you enjoy playing there, so I'll give you some actual advice: You're going to collapse your metagame. How about showing a little self-restraint or testing your play skill and rotating decks or something? I can't imagine you get any pleasure in playing such one-sided games, but even if you do through some overinflated alpha-male complex or perhaps pedo-sadism (yeah, I just made that up), I'll point out that little kids aren't going to show up to get beat every week.

Act like a grown up and help them out. It's nice people are showing interest in Legacy, you've got to keep it going.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Or just Fireblast after no blocks are declared.

I draw them plenty often, but then I do run 10 fetches and a canopy. Even still, the only time Thoctar is genuinely better is on turn three and he's only a two of. I rarely land knight on turn three, so I don't feel like that's as important.

Still seems terrible. Bc then they don't take the Knight damage and remove him with some removal spell. Waiting until second main or their turn is still the tech play.

Nice one trying to deflect my logical response to my "outlandish claims".

*thumbs up*:laugh:

[hungryLIKEALION]

Still seems terrible. Bc then they don't take the Knight damage and remove him with some removal spell. Waiting until second main or their turn is still the tech play.

Nice one trying to deflect my logical response to my "outlandish claims".

*thumbs up*:laugh:

Sorry for assuming people would play with some degree of intelligence and not walk into removal?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Sorry for assuming people would play with some degree of intelligence and not walk into removal?

If that's all you've got, then I believe this little tid-bit is over.

1UP Baileyarch:laugh:

[hungryLIKEALION]

What exactly would you like me to say? Fireblast gets you into lose-lose situations no matter what. I disagree about kotr + fireblast being more awkward than thoctar + fireblast because let's face it, if they have an stp, they're gonna take out the 3drop before it connects whether it's a thoctar OR a knight. That's why I don't like it. But arguing that thoctar is faster when knight is clearly the same speed or a point faster is silly. Then trying to say you care about something besides speed draws away from that point, so it's kind of pointless to point out that thoctar is faster in the first place.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

What exactly would you like me to say? Fireblast gets you into lose-lose situations no matter what. I disagree about kotr + fireblast being more awkward than thoctar + fireblast because let's face it, if they have an stp, they're gonna take out the 3drop before it connects whether it's a thoctar OR a knight. That's why I don't like it. But arguing that thoctar is faster when knight is clearly the same speed or a point faster is silly. Then trying to say you care about something besides speed draws away from that point, so it's kind of pointless to point out that thoctar is faster in the first place.

There is no making points with you, like at all. You ask me to explain myself, and i do, with very good points like i usually do, but you keep going on and on and on.

How is it pointless!? Thoctar IS faster. With or without Fireblast. I don't see how you don't see that. Having 5 power to attack with on turn 4 instead of the alternative 3 or 4 with Knight makes a difference. Having to activate him wastes an attack. Sure you can crack a bunch of fetches make him bigger, but you have to fetch EVERY TURN up to turn 4 to get him bigger. That doesn't seem very likely.

I know Knight is your pet card or whatever, but what I'm saying makes perfect sense, and blindly defending him because he's your pet card gets nothing done. Sure he is bigger late game, we all know this. Sure he can't be blasted, whoopty. If you want to go with speed, go with Thoctar. If you wanna build more of a midrange Zoo deck with an upped land count, and slower spells, then run Knight. It's that simple.

[Sims]

Moat and Morphling? How the hell does that beat Zoo? That's a terrible idea. Ascension... you mean Bloodchief Ascension, the most unplayable card in Zendikar?


Just nitpicking- Pridemage being counterable can make Moat own you first game, and you have to make sure you get your grips in games 2-3. Not unwinnable, but a stalling tactic that can surely help turn a game. However, I don't think he meant Bloodchief Ascension, but rather probably the blue one. Blooodchief Ascension is far and away from the most unplayable card in Zendikar. :b: to turn a few turns of Attacking, burning, or otherwise fucking your opponent into free 4 life swings in your favor for every card they play, mill, sacrifice, discard, etc... Seems much better to me than say.... Unstable Footing, a much worse card than Bloodchief Ascension.

[Gibsonmac]

Just nitpicking- Pridemage being counterable can make Moat own you first game, and you have to make sure you get your grips in games 2-3.

Thats why we play 4 pridemage, and multi grips post-board. And we have library to dig. Also, post board, we rock Susher so we can force pridemage through.

[hungryLIKEALION]

There is no making points with you, like at all. You ask me to explain myself, and i do, with very good points like i usually do, but you keep going on and on and on.If you explained yourself and were correct I wouldn't need to argue.


How is it pointless!? Thoctar IS faster. With or without Fireblast. I don't see how you don't see that. Having 5 power to attack with on turn 4 instead of the alternative 3 or 4 with Knight makes a difference. Having to activate him wastes an attack. Sure you can crack a bunch of fetches make him bigger, but you have to fetch EVERY TURN up to turn 4 to get him bigger. That doesn't seem very likely.

In the situation we're talking about, Knight is either the same size or larger. That's what I'm trying to convey to you. For absolute clarity on what I'm saying, the situation here is when you played a three drop and they didn't counter it or remove it and you got to swing with it. On that swing Knight will at least be a 3/3, but more likely a 4/4 or 5/5. If they didn't remove thoctar yet, I'm willing to bet a lot of money it's because they don't have the stp for it. If they don't block and you fireblast before damage, Knight will result in more damage, thus exemplifying his synergy with Fireblast. This synergy is obvious.

I'm not arguing that thoctar is a slower card in general. I'm arguing that fireblast+knight is not awkward. Obviously it's a more reliable 4th turn swing, though personally I've never found the glamour of having a 'faster' three drop. Seems to me more burn or another two drop would be better when you're trying to be 'fast'.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

If you explained yourself and were correct I wouldn't need to argue.



In the situation we're talking about, Knight is either the same size or larger. That's what I'm trying to convey to you. For absolute clarity on what I'm saying, the situation here is when you played a three drop and they didn't counter it or remove it and you got to swing with it. On that swing Knight will at least be a 3/3, but more likely a 4/4 or 5/5. If they didn't remove thoctar yet, I'm willing to bet a lot of money it's because they don't have the stp for it. If they don't block and you fireblast before damage, Knight will result in more damage, thus exemplifying his synergy with Fireblast. This synergy is obvious.

I'm not arguing that thoctar is a slower card in general. I'm arguing that fireblast+knight is not awkward. Obviously it's a more reliable 4th turn swing, though personally I've never found the glamour of having a 'faster' three drop. Seems to me more burn or another two drop would be better when you're trying to be 'fast'.

I explain myself everytime. But it's like you don't want to hear what i say. The first post i typed up over this i said Thoctar was faster than Knight. Then i went on to the mentioned Fireblast plus Knight scenario.

But why in the hell would you make bad plays for more damage? It's like you're trying to justify your scenario with bad plays. I'm saying Thoctar IS faster, and even in the made up scenario you just came up with, Thoctar is still better because a good player wouldn't even consider Fireblast before combat.

Then you go on to make a synergy argument, which is random as hell because i was just talking on a pure speed based conversation.

I don't see how much clearer i can be.

[Sims]

Thats why we play 4 pridemage, and multi grips post-board. And we have library to dig. Also, post board, we rock Susher so we can force pridemage through.

Oh I'm aware. I'm just saying that it is entirely possible for moat to provide a speedbump, if not flat out buy enough time, to allow a properly constructed control deck to take over the game before we can force through a pridemage or find one game 1. And even game 2-3, all the sideboard hate in the world does no good if you can't drop it. Is moat the best plan? Hell no. Does it slow us down? For a period, and sometimes that's all it takes.

[Sevryn]

As a sideline observer to this KotR vs thoctar debate... it seems that thoctar will more frequently have 5 power. Maybe i'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure..

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

As a sideline observer to this KotR vs thoctar debate... it seems that thoctar will more frequently have 5 power. Maybe i'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure..

Yeah. I've played with Knight before, and you have to crack a bunch of fetches to make him big, or tap him which makes him waste an attack phase.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I explain myself everytime. But it's like you don't want to hear what i say. The first post i typed up over this i said Thoctar was faster than Knight. Then i went on to the mentioned Fireblast plus Knight scenario.Throughout this whole thing I haven't tried to argue that Knight is faster. What I took issue with was when you said fireblast is more awkward in a deck with knight than with thoctar, because that is not true.


But why in the hell would you make bad plays for more damage? It's like you're trying to justify your scenario with bad plays. I'm saying Thoctar IS faster, and even in the made up scenario you just came up with, Thoctar is still better because a good player wouldn't even consider Fireblast before combat.I'd make the arguement that a good player wouldn't run Fireblast at all, but as long as you're running such an all in card, I don't see the harm in casting it, albeit a little early, when you're very confident your opponent does not have any instant speed removal to take him out if it's going to result in more damage.


Then you go on to make a synergy argument, which is random as hell because i was just talking on a pure speed based conversation.It's not random when the topic is whether or not fireblast and kotr are awkward together. They're not awkward; They're synergistic.


I don't see how much clearer i can be.
Quite a bit.

Edit//On turn three, yes, thoctar has more power. By the time you actually want your three drop to matter, Knight will almost always be larger.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Throughout this whole thing I haven't tried to argue that Knight is faster. What I took issue with was when you said fireblast is more awkward in a deck with knight than with thoctar, because that is not true.

I'd make the arguement that a good player wouldn't run Fireblast at all, but as long as you're running such an all in card, I don't see the harm in casting it, albeit a little early, when you're very confident your opponent does not have any instant speed removal to take him out if it's going to result in more damage.

It's not random when the topic is whether or not fireblast and kotr are awkward together. They're not awkward; They're synergistic.


Quite a bit.

Edit//On turn three, yes, thoctar has more power. By the time you actually want your three drop to matter, Knight will almost always be larger.

Just stop, you're beating a dead horse. You don't have to justify anything anymore, you're just rambling at this point. Everyone has read this whole argument and i only have one reply in my favor, but i wouldn't doubt more than a few people agree with me.

That whole paragraph you wrote about playing Fireblast before combat, is still wrong. I don't care how confident i am. I don't care if my buddy is playing Merfolk Mill with not counters or removal, I would still never Fireblast before combat.

People who play Fireblast obviously want to end the game quickly, or they wouldn't play it. They would play another spell. Knight is not the creature to play if you want to kill your opponent ASAP, which is what i thought this deck wanted to do.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Before damage =/= before combat.

If all the deck cared about was killing ASAP, why are you playing a three drop?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Before damage =/= before combat.

If all the deck cared about was killing ASAP, why are you playing a three drop?

I'm assuming you're done at this point right?

That's what the deck is supposed to do and why it's good. I believe that a 5 power creature for 3 mana is pretty good. And I've never killed someone on turn 3, so i have some room to cast something.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Running a three drop at all lowers consistency. If you're trying to kill on turn 4 or 5 you're more likely to get more swings and more damage out of a two drop or a burn spell. Two drops are also faster in the face of mana denial and commonly played counters like daze. I do not believe the only thing Zoo cares about is winning ASAP, or else it would just move to look like GoyfSligh. After all this time, Zoo is a DTB and GoyfSligh is not... So Obviously Zoo's attention to pieces of the game after turn 4 must be worthwhile.

[Sevryn]

I just don't understand why you would choose to play a conditional creature (KotR) in zoo. not even nactl-conditional, because in a 3 color deck you will probably see a 2nd or 3rd color. Thoctar is ALWAYS five power for three mana, KotR's size depends on cracking fetchlands, drawing fireblast, and willingness to use fireblast. Thoctar swings for 5.

The only reason I can see running KotR is for utility reasons; cheating wasteland into play, adding a singleton nantuko monastery, other random things that probably belong in a different deck, and in any case you aren't even mentioning these advantages. Pretty sure KotR is just a little bit too cool and too conditional, when thoctar just happily swings for 5.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Running a three drop at all lowers consistency. If you're trying to kill on turn 4 or 5 you're more likely to get more swings and more damage out of a two drop or a burn spell. Two drops are also faster in the face of mana denial and commonly played counters like daze. I do not believe the only thing Zoo cares about is winning ASAP, or else it would just move to look like GoyfSligh. After all this time, Zoo is a DTB and GoyfSligh is not... So Obviously Zoo's attention to pieces of the game after turn 4 must be worthwhile.

Okay? Yes Zoo is efficient. It wants to kill as quickly as possible, but because it's so efficient you don't need to run any different cards to make it so. It performs well Midrange too. It's not like people try and slow the deck down. It's original purpose also doubles as a good Midrange deck. So i don't see your point.

Also, the lines are beginning to blur with Goyf Sligh and Zoo, people splash white just for Nacatl in Goyf Sligh, but according to popular belief it's still Zoo, which it's not. The only difference is that Zoo has Pridemage, Path, and Nacatl, all of which could easily be run by Goyf Sligh, but then that makes it Zoo right? I once again don't see your point.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I just don't understand why you would choose to play a conditional creature (KotR) in zoo. not even nactl-conditional, because in a 3 color deck you will probably see a 2nd or 3rd color. Thoctar is ALWAYS five power for three mana, KotR's size depends on cracking fetchlands, drawing fireblast, and willingness to use fireblast. Thoctar swings for 5.

The only reason I can see running KotR is for utility reasons; cheating wasteland into play, adding a singleton nantuko monastery, other random things that probably belong in a different deck, and in any case you aren't even mentioning these advantages. Pretty sure KotR is just a little bit too cool and too conditional, when thoctar just happily swings for 5.

Fireblast has nothing to do with Knight's usefulness. I run Knight without Fireblast. I was only talking about it at all because I felt Baileyarch was criticizing the card for nonexistant reasons.

The reason the deck runs KoTR is because he is a monster far beyond what Wooly Thoctar is capable of, and those who like him over thoctar, myself included, do not find the one less power on turn three to be a significant enough drawback compared to how good he is at dominating games turn 5-on. The reason I don't like thoctar is because I play in a meta where Tarmogoyf is larger than thoctar 90% of games, and when that is the case, why the fuck am I overpaying for a vanilla 5/4? I'd much rather have a creature than can give goyf the bird and win the game anyway.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Fireblast has nothing to do with Knight's usefulness. I run Knight without Fireblast. I was only talking about it at all because I felt Baileyarch was criticizing the card for nonexistant reasons.

The reason the deck runs KoTR is because he is a monster far beyond what Wooly Thoctar is capable of, and those who like him over thoctar, myself included, do not find the one less power on turn three to be a significant enough drawback compared to how good he is at dominating games turn 5-on. The reason I don't like thoctar is because I play in a meta where Tarmogoyf is larger than thoctar 90% of games, and when that is the case, why the fuck am I overpaying for a vanilla 5/4? I'd much rather have a creature than can give goyf the bird and win the game anyway.

A 1 power difference in the early game? Why do you continually assume that you will crack two fetches every game? I promise you that you won't. And if you spend you're second turn activating Horizon Canopy then you're losing anyway.

[hungryLIKEALION]

A 1 power difference in the early game? Why do you continually assume that you will crack two fetches every game?

Because I do crack at least two fetches 95% of games. Keep in mind I run a higher fetch count than some people do.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Because I do crack at least two fetches 95% of games. Keep in mind I run a higher fetch count than some people do.

It's still wrong to assume things like that. I run 10 fetches and I've had several games i can recall where I've cracked one.

And the one or two extra power matters over the course of 2 turns even. 4 damage matters.

[hungryLIKEALION]

It's still wrong to assume things like that. I run 10 fetches and I've had several games i can recall where I've cracked one.I'm not assuming, I'm speaking from my experience playing my deck. I've played the hell out of this thing lately, and I know from experience that by the time I cast knight (Which I will again point out is usually not turn three) he's at least a 4/4, and usually larger.


And the one or two extra power matters over the course of 2 turns even. 4 damage matters.

I'm not saying those points of power don't matter. What I'm saying is I believe not being outclassed by the opponent's two drop matters more.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I'm not assuming, I'm speaking from my experience playing my deck. I've played the hell out of this thing lately, and I know from experience that by the time I cast knight (Which I will again point out is usually not turn three) he's at least a 4/4, and usually larger.



I'm not saying those points of power don't matter. What I'm saying is I believe not being outclassed by the opponent's two drop matters more.

No, you're assuming. It's that simple. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Just because all the games you've played you've fetched twice by the 3rd turn doesn't mean it will always happen. That IS assuming.

Yes Goyf can get to be a 5/6 by turn 4, but most of the time your Thoctar trades with their freshly cast Goyf. Hell, alot of games Goyf doesn't get 5/6.

[hungryLIKEALION]

No, you're assuming. It's that simple. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Just because all the games you've played you've fetched twice by the 3rd turn doesn't mean it will always happen. That IS assuming.Not by the third turn, by the time I cast knight; Once again, he is the last threat I play in most games, making him come down turn 5-6 more often than turn 3 or 4. And I don't think relying on personal experience is assuming.


Yes Goyf can get to be a 5/6 by turn 4, but most of the time your Thoctar trades with their freshly cast Goyf. Hell, alot of games Goyf doesn't get 5/6.I play in a meta where my pridemages go to the gy because I'm using their ability more often than combat. Thus goyfs are usually 5/6 pretty early. And even if goyf is a 4/5, I don't want to trade my three drop for their goyf. Trading 1 for 1 is bad for me. My deck has less card advantage and less threat protection than my opponent's deck almost guaranteed; if I'm going to have a three drop it needs to totally dominate the game for me to play it. That's why I don't like Thoctar. He just sits there as a 5/4 vanilla and trades or gets eaten by Legacy's favorite lhurgoyf. Knight can actually shrug off the lhurgoyf while drawing me cards with canopy. So yes, you're right, Thoctar is faster than Knight. But speed is not what I want out of my three drop.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Not by the third turn, by the time I cast knight; Once again, he is the last threat I play in most games, making him come down turn 5-6 more often than turn 3 or 4. And I don't think relying on personal experience is assuming.

I play in a meta where my pridemages go to the gy because I'm using their ability more often than combat. Thus goyfs are usually 5/6 pretty early. And even if goyf is a 4/5, I don't want to trade my three drop for their goyf. Trading 1 for 1 is bad for me. My deck has less card advantage and less threat protection than my opponent's deck almost guaranteed; if I'm going to have a three drop it needs to totally dominate the game for me to play it. That's why I don't like Thoctar. He just sits there as a 5/4 vanilla and trades or gets eaten by Legacy's favorite lhurgoyf. Knight can actually shrug off the lhurgoyf while drawing me cards with canopy. So yes, you're right, Thoctar is faster than Knight. But speed is not what I want out of my three drop.

Seriously, all i hear at this point from you, is that you can't think of any other argument besides the, "In my metagame" one. This thread is supposed to work on the deck as a whole, not for individual people.

And i bet if some pro player made a Source screenname and posted the exact same thing that i said, that you would be agreeing with him. I'm sorry i'm a dick, but i make good points. I know when I've been beaten, but until then I'll keep arguing on what is right for the deck as a whole.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Seriously, all i hear at this point from you, is that you can't think of any other argument besides the, "In my metagame" one. This thread is supposed to work on the deck as a whole, not for individual people. Lol. Sorry for using that phrase. I'm assuming decks like CB Top and Merfolk are decks you see too in yours, no? Because that's what my meta has.


And i bet if some pro player made a Source screenname and posted the exact same thing that i said, that you would be agreeing with him.Lol, now who's assuming? I'm sorry you're convinced that you're the only person who forms their own opinions, but that's awfully arrogant.


I'm sorry i'm a dick,Yeah, you really are.
but i make good points.Yes, but you don't need to insult everyone else to do it.

I know when I've been beaten, but until then I'll keep arguing on what is right for the deck as a whole.And since this was a poor insult based on a straw man of my words, it's obviously worthless.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Lol. Sorry for using that phrase. I'm assuming decks like CB Top and Merfolk are decks you see too in yours, no? Because that's what my meta has.

Lol, now who's assuming? I'm sorry you're convinced that you're the only person who forms their own opinions, but that's awfully arrogant.

Yeah, you really are. Yes, but you don't need to insult everyone else to do it.
And since this was a poor insult based on a straw man of my words, it's obviously worthless.

Haha. People just take things the wrong way, so if I'm a dick in all The Source's eyes, then oh no i could care less.

OOHH you're meta has Merfolk and Counterbalance? My meta has some of the best players the south has to offer. You think i'm pulling your chain, but I've been to GP Chicago and an Atlanta GP Legacy Event, and i haven't seen players half as good as the ones i play with every week. And they all pilot good decks too.

I don't assume, i base my opinions with facts and testing. You just don't like me so you continue to badger everything i post.

[inkaras]

First of all, I only own 1 deck, Zoo. So I don't have the resources to play other decks. And honestly I don't really want to.

The Ascension card I was refering to is the white one, that makes angels. It was a pain at first, but won all the same. He plays a lot of sticks with fog like abilities, fun idea I am sure just not competitive.

As for Moat and Morphling, He dropped Moat and then next turn morphling, in game 1, I never seen my pridemages so it slowed me enough for morphling to kill me. games 2 and 3 after board it was no contest.

As for collapsing the meta, I don't think it's going to happen, yes I win often but there are top 4 prizes so others are winning as well.

Also there are 2-4 other ppl who often play but have been spotty in appearence this last month and 1/2. They play candaian thresh and counter balance and 43 land, which have in the past stolen or just flat beaten me.

So while yes I am on a win streak it won't last forever those 2-4 other good players always bring a good game to the table and I do loose, those are the decks I was really asking for advice verse.

Also My meta is for the most part very aggro heavy, and zoo just dominates it. If they wanna play eve green, goblins, or some other funky combo like painter then by all means.

Also last week in top 4 there was a kid playing something like eve green but his hippies where in the side in favor for rack..... I told him hippies should be main, he said no they shouldn't. So I didn't argue with him. Younger players are notorious for not listening or taking advice.

So please don't bash me without knowing the whole story, I am actually a fairly nice person (least I think so) and not some a-hole who loves to smash face all day with Nacatl.

Sorry for this type of post but felt it necessary to explain myself a little better as I was seeking advice on my favorite deck.
thanks again

[hungryLIKEALION]

I don't assume, i base my opinions with facts and testing.It's funny that when you rely on your experience with the deck it's testing, but when I do it it's assuming.
You just don't like me so you continue to badger everything i post.I only don't like you when you post like an ass hole. We've had plenty of civil conversations before.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

It's funny that when you rely on your experience with the deck it's testing, but when I do it it's assuming. I only don't like you when you post like an ass hole. We've had plenty of civil conversations before.

Because i don't post imaginary scenarios. And i don't say that KOTR will always be almost as big as Thoctar turn 3 or 4. Magic is a game of luck, and skill, but mostly luck, so don't assume anything.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Alright, I don't even know how to reply to that post. You're honestly saying that my testing is not valid... because... I don't even know why. Okay. I'll keep that in mind next time. I just won't even test because testing relies on personal experience and personal experience is not valid so I should just pick up a pile, say it's good, claim it's fact, and be on my way.

Will do, cap'n.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Alright, I don't even know how to reply to that post. You're honestly saying that my testing is not valid... because... I don't even know why. Okay. I'll keep that in mind next time. I just won't even test because testing relies on personal experience and personal experience is not valid so I should just pick up a pile, say it's good, claim it's fact, and be on my way.

Will do, cap'n.

You sounds like my ex gfs. Jeez.

You know exactly what i meant by that. I know cards are good because i test them. I never said KOTR was bad, but i think Thoctar is better for the deck. AS A WHOLE. Idk if you caught that like a million posts ago, but that's how i said it.

And i still don't understand how assuming you will always crack 3 fetches by turn 4 is realistic at all! Oh wait, because it's not!

[hungryLIKEALION]

No, I don't know what you meant by that. You literally said you rely on your testing. When I say I rely on mine, you say it's assuming and not valid.


And i still don't understand how assuming you will always crack 3 fetches by turn 4 is realistic at all! Oh wait, because it's not!You're right, it's not realistic, which is why I never said it was.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

No, I don't know what you meant by that. You literally said you rely on your testing. When I say I rely on mine, you say it's assuming and not valid.

You're right, it's not realistic, which is why I never said it was.

Are you serious?

You're just being ignorant at this point. You don't ever here me saying I'll always cast a 1cc creature on turn one. You don't hear me say I'll crack one fetch per game. I don't make any claims like that because i know that they won't always happen, and there is prolly a big percentage that they couldn't happen multiple times in a row. But you led off with, "I'm hungryLIKEALION and i fetch enough so my KOTR is always as big or 1 power off turn 4."

You stand by that, and it makes no sense. You'd be better off saying, "I got lucky and drew all the fetches i need every game."

Realistically Thoctar deals more damage that KOTR when the deck wants to deal damage. And even in the mid/late game, i could see Thoctar dealing more damage with a normal deck with 8 fetches.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm getting pretty sick of arguing at this point and should really be finishing my midterm paper due wednesday, so forgive me if my responses start getting pretty short. In fact, after this post, it may be best if we just resolve to disagree
Are you serious?

You're just being ignorant at this point. You don't ever here me saying I'll always cast a 1cc creature on turn one. You don't hear me say I'll crack one fetch per game. I don't make any claims like that because i know that they won't always happen, and there is prolly a big percentage that they couldn't happen multiple times in a row. But you led off with, "I'm hungryLIKEALION and i fetch enough so my KOTR is always as big or 1 power off turn 4."

You stand by that, and it makes no sense. You'd be better off saying, "I got lucky and drew all the fetches i need every game."I stand by the fact that in a large majority of games I've played with my deck, I am able to remember how many fetches I've drawn, how many wastelands my opponent has played, and all the other relevant statistics. I can't honestly remember the last time I cast Knight and he wasn't a 4/4 at least. And I take notes at almost all my tournaments, and I'm looking at them right now, and I see that in the middle of June I apparently played him as a 3/3. Once. And I've played hundreds of games this summer, and the only times I don't take notes is when I'm playing against a scrub without a real deck. I'm sorry if this is assuming, but I think my hundreds of games of notes count as valid testing.


Realistically Thoctar deals more damage that KOTR when the deck wants to deal damage. And even in the mid/late game, i could see Thoctar dealing more damage with a normal deck with 8 fetches.Then this is the difference in our views. You want a 3 drop to deal damage on turn 4 and 5. I want my 3 drop to punch through larger opposing creatures and win me games I wouldn't have otherwise won. So let's just agree to disagree now, we've derailed this thread enough with our bitching.

[Forbiddian]

I play in a meta where my pridemages go to the gy because I'm using their ability more often than combat. Thus goyfs are usually 5/6 pretty early. And even if goyf is a 4/5, I don't want to trade my three drop for their goyf. Trading 1 for 1 is bad for me. My deck has less card advantage and less threat protection than my opponent's deck almost guaranteed;

Instant, Land, Sorcery, Creature, and Artifact/Enchantment most games around turn 4-5?!?

Really, what the fuck are you guys doing, playing Millstones? Goyf is like a 3/4 on turn 5.


Ponder and Chain Lightning are the only common sorceries (Oh, I remembered Rift Bolt, which I don't run).

And what artifacts/enchantments are going to the yard? You either don't run any or run like Jitte and/or Sylvan Library, and your only removal main is probably Pridemage. You wouldn't Pridemage a top, so the only real possible target is Counterbalance -- that's if he let your Pridemage resolve.

So now your opponent needs to have Counterbalance (but no Force) and you need to have Pridemage and then you need to sacrifice your Pridemage to kill their Counterbalance. And that's taking Instant, Land, and Creature for granted. Certainly some of the time, one of those is missing.

[Draener]

So now your opponent needs to have Counterbalance (but no Force) and you need to have Pridemage and then you need to sacrifice your Pridemage to kill their Counterbalance. And that's taking Instant, Land, and Creature for granted. Certainly some of the time, one of those is missing.

Pretty sure pridemage is a creature.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm really trying to be done with this argument so this is the last thinnill say aboutnit. Standstill, EE, Deed, Dreadnaught, and SB cards people play; keep in mind that two thirds of all games take place after sideboarding.

[inkaras]

Ok so Siding, I've read through and haven't really seen anyone talk about how and or what they like to side in verse the other DTB.
siding has always been one of my weakest points in magic, I never know what to take out. Putting cards in is no problem.
So a quick list of DTB-- (feel free to add to this list but this is what I often see)
Counter Top
43 Land
canadian thresh
goblins
dredge
landstill / WU control
Merfolk
Stax - white version
g/b rock
eva green
sui black (I realize that a few of these decks are not DTB -- such as sui black, possible rock as well)

My personal SB looks like so:
2 stp
3 krosan grip
2 red elemental blast -- going to replace not sure for what though
2 choke
3 price of progress
2 vexing shusher
1 Jitte

a few other cards I seen mentioned:
EE ? further testing on this?

gaddock teeg -- I'll be using him I think verse land and dredge, which are a pain to lay verse

cannonist -- used in legacy?

Tormods crypt -- I know it is used but don't see many zoo lists with it? is there a reason?

I've also been considering using the new black card (ravenous trap) I think it's called. thoughts?

what am I missing?
thanks for reading and your input.

[quicksilver]

keep in mind that two thirds of all games take place after sideboarding.

That's not true. It's somewhere less than 2/3 and greater than 1/2. Not all matches go to three games.

[Gibsonmac]

Ok so Siding, I've read through and haven't really seen anyone talk about how and or what they like to side in verse the other DTB.
siding has always been one of my weakest points in magic, I never know what to take out. Putting cards in is no problem.
So a quick list of DTB-- (feel free to add to this list but this is what I often see)
Counter Top
43 Land
canadian thresh
goblins
dredge
landstill / WU control
Merfolk
Stax - white version
g/b rock
eva green
sui black (I realize that a few of these decks are not DTB -- such as sui black, possible rock as well)

My personal SB looks like so:
2 stp
3 krosan grip
2 red elemental blast -- going to replace not sure for what though
2 choke
3 price of progress
2 vexing shusher
1 Jitte

a few other cards I seen mentioned:
EE ? further testing on this?

gaddock teeg -- I'll be using him I think verse land and dredge, which are a pain to lay verse

cannonist -- used in legacy?

Tormods crypt -- I know it is used but don't see many zoo lists with it? is there a reason?

I've also been considering using the new black card (ravenous trap) I think it's called. thoughts?

what am I missing?
thanks for reading and your input.

Canonist/teeg are great against TES/ANT (combo) so they are quite powerful weapons against them, although I would skip it if you don't run into those matches often.

I would go to 2 grips (with 4 pridemages main, 6 A/E removal is plenty)

Tormod's crypt/relic are VERY important if Dredge is present... Relic is more useful against Thresh than crypt, so if dredge is common, definately want 2-3 of these bad boys, use a split between the two because dredge players love pithing needle to shut down your answers.

The trap is weak...

I would replace REB/pyroblast with crypt/relic... but remember, sideboards should be adjusted every tournament based on expectations, do some do-diligence to find out what to expect then plan accordingly... your present SB with the addition of crypt/relic and replacing StP with teeg would be a pretty good 'swiss-army knife' sideboard to cover all your bases in an unkown meta.

[e=mc^2]

@inkaras
The only thing I am sure about sidebording against is dredge. The best way to attack them is to use hate that they won't think of. Ravenous trap is pretty new and i don't think that pilots will expect to see a black card in zoo even though it costs 0 mana. The trap has worked really well for me, and I had no situations where I couldn't play it for free and wanted to.

As for the rest of your questions I am also interested to hear what the more vociferous posters in this thread have to say.

[Zilla]

Then trying to say you care about something besides speed draws away from that point, so it's kind of pointless to point out that thoctar is faster in the first place.
While it might be mildly off topic, I wanted to tell you how impressed I am that you used "point" as a noun, an adjective, and a verb in the same sentence. NICE!

[Gibsonmac]

I never know what to take out. Putting cards in is no problem.


Forgot to address this, my bad,

Dredge, -2 thoctar, out fireblast, in crypt/relic/hate
Gobs/tribal, out thoctar or price/fireblast, in jitte
Blue/standstill, out fireblast or thoctar lavamancer, in choke and shusher

just try to feel out what the weak links are in the matchups (what card would you be most sad to topdeck) then replace with what would be stronger... you'll get the hang of it in time, it really can be a difficult task with a new deck, the more experience you get with the deck the easier it becomes

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Consider running Ancient Grudge in the Sideboard. It's a house. I know we already have Pridemage and Grip, but i opted to run Grudge before Pridemage was printed and still do. It's insane. I would also suggest Jitte also.

[inkaras]

thanks everyone so far for your input.
do I need ancient grudge? I know it's a house but 2-3 krosan grip plus pridemages, 6-7 removal seems like enough? I might be wrong on this. it's a shame it doesn't hit enchantments as well.

What about null rod? good verse any particular deck? I know some of you were playing it at one time or another.

How much weaker is relic verse crypt when it comes to dredge and 43 land? (I assume that this is also good verse land)

I play 1 jitte main and 1 in the side is 2 enough? my gut says yes but thought I'd ask anyways.

Anyone tested EE? how well does it work and in which matches are you using it?

[Gibsonmac]

thanks everyone so far for your input.
do I need ancient grudge? I know it's a house but 2-3 krosan grip plus pridemages, 6-7 removal seems like enough? I might be wrong on this. it's a shame it doesn't hit enchantments as well.

What about null rod? good verse any particular deck? I know some of you were playing it at one time or another.

How much weaker is relic verse crypt when it comes to dredge and 43 land? (I assume that this is also good verse land)

I play 1 jitte main and 1 in the side is 2 enough? my gut says yes but thought I'd ask anyways.

Anyone tested EE? how well does it work and in which matches are you using it?

2 jitte is perfect between sb and main.

I don't like EE, its a control card this is an aggro deck, powder keg might be better if your going for token kill.

relic is better against thresh, remove a card every turn to keep them off threshold... but crypt is better all-around because it removes 'target' graveyard so your goyf stays big... its a good idea to split them because of pithing needle.

Stick with grip... ability to hit enchantments is key... grudge is great against affinity and chalice decks, but I feel grip is stronger in a broader sense. 6ish answers is more than enough. If affinity and Dragon Stompy are big in your meta, maybe grudge over grip. But the 2cc(1cc flashback) is an easy target for counterbalance, the 3cc of grip not so much, most countertop lists run two maybe three 3cc spells... you do also have shusher to push things through, but grip can stand alone in that matchup

[hungryLIKEALION]

I don't think Loxodon meant to run grudge over grip. I agree with him that Grudge is great, I used to play it for a long time but cut it recently when dreadstill got less popular all of a sudden. It's still a good card, definitely, but I haven't had room on my sideboard for it lately.

I think I'm the only person who plays EE, so I'll field this.

I play it for Countertop, Dreadstill, the Mirror, some builds of merfolk, dredge, and anything random with lots of tokens like belcher.

In the Mirror I usually like to take the control role anyway, so it's pretty good when the opponent drops a multitude of 2 drops or 1 drops and you blow them out with one card. Against Countertop I think it's important to have sort of a 'panic button'. You can play it for 2 counters as a 4drop, and blow up multiple goyfs+balance if they pull ahead. It's a similar case for Dreadstill. It's obvious good against Dredge, though not the best, but still it's nice to be able to use such a versatile card. I bring it in against stax to take out chalices.

I've only played with it a couple times so far, so I'm still deciding if I want to keep playing it or not, but thus far I enjoy its versatility. I guess it just suits my play style.


While it might be mildly off topic, I wanted to tell you how impressed I am that you used "point" as a noun, an adjective, and a verb in the same sentence. NICE!

Hah hah hah. That's what happens when I'm arguing on the internet for hours at a time, I stop paying attention to my vocabulary.

[Forbiddian]

That's not true. It's somewhere less than 2/3 and greater than 1/2. Not all matches go to three games.

Let x = p(game 1 win)
Let y = p(game 2 win)
Where 0 < xy < x < 1

P(matchwin) = xy + xy(1-y) + (1-x)*y*y

= xy + xy - xyy - xyy + yy
= 2xy - 2xyy + yy

d/dx = 2y - 2yy (this is the increase in match win percentage with respect to an increase in winning the first game)
d/dy = 2x - 4xy + 2y (this is the increase in match win percentage with respect to an increase in winning sideboarded games)

Let (d/dy)/(d/dx) = (2x - 4xy + 2y) / (2y - 2yy) = f(x,y)

f(x,y) >= 2 for all x, y on the box interval [0,1],[0,1]. Observe some examples:

f(0.25, 0.25) = 2
f(0.5, 0.25) = 2.66666
f(0.75, 0.25) = 3.33333
f(0.25, 0.5) = 2
f(0.25, 0.75) = 3.333333
f(0.5, 0.5) = 2
f(0.5, 0.75) = 2.66666
f(0.75, 0.5) = 2
f(0.75, 0.75) = 2


Actually, YOU'RE not true. Any changes in win probability during the sideboarded games are double OR MORE as important as any changes in win probability for the first game.

This is true even though fewer than 2/3rds of the games are played with sideboards.

[Watcher487]

Something is wrong with your calculations Forbiddian.

[Forbiddian]

Something is wrong with your calculations Forbiddian.

Nope.


Edit: Maybe I should elaborate. If you're too stupid to check the three lines of mathematics elementary calculus, then don't bother to post saying that I'm wrong because you got mindfucked.

[Sevryn]

Nope.


Edit: Maybe I should elaborate. If you're too stupid to check the three lines of mathematics elementary calculus, then don't bother to post saying that I'm wrong because you got mindfucked.

What?? Calculus is not the correct tool here. Previous posters said that over half of games occur with sideboards involved. Considering a best-2-out-of-3 format, why are you bring math into this? And all of the math ignores that the opponent is sideboarding, too, so it isn't just a raw % increase. Seriously, your post and tone are confusing.

[Forbiddian]

What?? Calculus is not the correct tool here. Previous posters said that over half of games occur with sideboards involved. Considering a best-2-out-of-3 format, why are you bring math into this? And all of the math ignores that the opponent is sideboarding, too, so it isn't just a raw % increase. Seriously, your post and tone are confusing.

Yo, I just dropped a proof that sideboarded games are more than twice as important as non-sideboarded games.

If you just think about it in terms of raw # of games played instead of looking at the matchwin percentage, then you'll think, erroneously, that pre-boarded games are 2/3rds to 1/2 as important as boarded games (i.e. > 1/2 as important as boarded games), but they're actually less than half as important as boarded games to the overall match win %, even though they make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of the games played.

So another way to look at it: Even though you're playing less than twice as many sideboarded games as non-sideboarded games, the sideboarded games collectively contribute more than twice as much to determining who wins the match overall.

I'm sure there'll be some way to abuse that knowledge. Either practice sideboarded games more (barely anyone does this), practice boarding itself (very few people do this or really have a good grasp of what to board even in common MUs), or make changes to the maindeck and sideboard to perhaps sacrifice maindeck play in one matchup to increase your sideboarded play in another matchups.


But I responded generally to a post from a guy who was discounting the contribution of sideboarded games.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yeah if i was ever going into a unknown metagame i would definitely run Grip. I just have a personally affinity for Ancient Grudge.

And like I've said, for the millionth time, an unanswered Jitte wins games straight up. It's that simple. I don't know why everyone wouldn't just run the card.

But anywho, i think the traps have potential for Zoo as an anti combo card. Teeg and Cannonist are often times too slow. And plus if you decide to keep a one lander, and combo hate, then you might get mana screwed. That's also happened to me too. Plus people don't run more than 4 copies of combo hate bears in their sideboard anymore.

It has potential.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Ok so Siding, I've read through and haven't really seen anyone talk about how and or what they like to side in verse the other DTB.
siding has always been one of my weakest points in magic, I never know what to take out. Putting cards in is no problem.
So a quick list of DTB-- (feel free to add to this list but this is what I often see)
Counter Top
43 Land
canadian thresh
goblins
dredge
landstill / WU control
Merfolk
Stax - white version
g/b rock
eva green
sui black (I realize that a few of these decks are not DTB -- such as sui black, possible rock as well)

My personal SB looks like so:
2 stp
3 krosan grip
2 red elemental blast -- going to replace not sure for what though
2 choke
3 price of progress
2 vexing shusher
1 Jitte


I actually wrote up a post for this exact sideboard:


Hey, Alix Hatfield here. There have been several questions about my sideboard in this thread, so I suppose I should address them. I have been very happy with my sideboard; I have hardly changed it, tournament to tournament, for several months.

The Swords to Plowshares ended up in there after a testing session against Goyf Sligh, a slightly unfavorable matchup that has become pretty common in the Northeast. Not that Swords is the best card we can bring in for that matchup (I really wanted to play Honorable Passage, actually), but it is the best card we could come up with that also has applications in the mirror, and in other matchups. Actually, Swords is one of the most versatile cards in the board. I bring them in not only for Goyf Sligh and the mirror, but also against Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, Goblins, Ichorid, Eva Green, and any other matchup in which the opponent might try to put me on the defensive with fatties before I can get him into burn range. This means I'll even bring the card in against CounterTop decks, if they have fatties other than Tarmogoyf to threaten me with.

As far as what STP replaces, that's kind of hard to say. I think it's a lot more useful for me to just post a rough sideboarding guide:

CounterTop
-3 Chain Lightning
-3 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Plains
-1-4 Lightning Bolt

+3 Krosan Grip
+3 Price of Progress
+2 Vexing Shusher
+2 Choke
+0-3 Red Elemental Blast/Swords to Plowshares (depends on the build of CounterTop)

Merfolk
-3 Fireblast
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-2 Sylvan Library

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Choke (on the play)
+2 Vexing Shusher (on the draw)

Goyf Sligh
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Woolly Thoctar

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Zoo
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Plains

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Canadian Threshold
-3 Fireblast
-3 Chain Lightning
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+3 Price of Progress
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Choke (on the play)
+2 Vexing Shusher (on the draw)

Goblins
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Woolly Thoctar

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Ichorid
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Plains

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

This is an approximation of how I've been boarding the deck. You do have to alter the plans slightly to account for variance between your opponent's decklists. Price of Progress ends up coming in somewhat more often than this would suggest, since I'll happily find room for it against four-/five-color Zoo lists and three-color Goblin lists. Price is also great against a lot of control decks that I haven't listed here.

I've seen it suggested several times now that Fireblast should come out against Ichorid, and I can't understand why. It's won me a lot of games in that matchup.

Anyway, I can try to fill in the missing decks in your list:

43 Lands
-3 Path to Exile
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+3 Price of Progress
+3 Krosan Grip/Vexing Shusher (assuming they board in Chalice)

Landstill
-4 Path to Exile (assuming they don't have Tarmogoyf)
-3 Fireblast (I'm not actually sure whether Fireblast or Chain Lighting is weaker here)
-1 Chain Lightning
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Plains (unless you suspect they will aggressively try to Crucible+Waste you)

+3 Price of Progress
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast

Stax
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Chain Lightning
-1 Lightning Bolt (Chain is obviously slightly weaker, but I think you want to leave some of them in to help grow Tarmogoyf)
-1 Fireblast
-1 Path to Exile
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+3 Price of Progress
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Vexing Shusher

Rock
-1 Plains
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+3 Price of Progress

Suicide variants
-3 Fireblast

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

A couple of these I had to come up with on the spot just now (namely Stax and Rock, which I have very rarely seen in tournaments), but I think my plans make sense. Let me know if you have any questions.


Oh, and please, if you want to sideboard graveyard hate, stay away from Relic of Progenitus. With Tarmogoyfs, Grim Lavamancers, and possibly Knights of the Reliquary, activating Relic's second ability is horrible for Zoo. We don't need any more sideboard cards against Threshold, anyway, and Tormod's Crypt is so much better in the matchups that we actually want graveyard hate for.

[humppa]

How is your matchup with dredge? I found I have nothing to SB agains it. I'm trying to fit something to the SB, but I can't decide what to take out.

[Obfuscate Freely]

How is your matchup with dredge?

It's not great. You have to hope that they have a substandard draw, or poor dredges. Sometimes, you can stall the engine by removing Putrid Imps, and you might catch them post-board with a REB on Breakthrough. Otherwise, it's a losing battle.

The good news is that when Ichorid does stumble, Zoo has the advantage of consistency. If they end up going DDD, it's anybody's game.

I wouldn't bother sideboarding for the matchup, unless you get paired against it in almost every tournament. Ichorid hate is just too narrow.

[Hanni]

StP/PtE is a great way to handle Dredge (removes their Ichorid's so they have nothing to sac), and if you got Crypt's in the board, bring them in too. Not as bad of a matchup for Zoo as opposed to other decks, for a number of reasons (clock, guys that can die to destroy bridges, etc).

[kkoie]

I have been trying zoo out, and so far the results are satisfying. My question is, how is everyones sideboard set-up for aggromatchups? I was told by someone that I shouldn't worry about dedicating much, if anything, to aggro in general in my sideboard, because I should be able to handle most of the decks as it is. Currently my sideboard is as such:

3 Magus of the Moon (I know questionable choice, but I currently run 9 fetches and 5 basics, and I have a sinking feeling that 43 land is very hard. Am I wrong?)
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cannonist
3 Teeg

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've never had trouble beating 43land thanks to price of progress.

[inkaras]

Alex thanks for the run down. I seem to side krosan grip in a lot more then suggested but I think there are little tweeks in my meta. Moats, Needles, things of that nature.

this will be a very helpful guide for sure, thanks again answered all my questions.

as a side note I lost to land twice, both times was because I never seen price in time.

[Gibsonmac]

I have been trying zoo out, and so far the results are satisfying. My question is, how is everyones sideboard set-up for aggromatchups? I was told by someone that I shouldn't worry about dedicating much, if anything, to aggro in general in my sideboard, because I should be able to handle most of the decks as it is. Currently my sideboard is as such:

3 Magus of the Moon (I know questionable choice, but I currently run 9 fetches and 5 basics, and I have a sinking feeling that 43 land is very hard. Am I wrong?)
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cannonist
3 Teeg

Magus is TERRIBLE... teeg and canonist? thats alotta combo hate... read the previous few pages, you'll get all the answers you need. By the way, magus is TERRIBLE...

[hungryLIKEALION]

Also, 43land will just gamble for firebolt or flame jab to take care of magus and be back on their merry way to smash your face again. Price is seriously much more useful.

[Svenyboy]

Heey,
I have a question to Countryside Crusher:
Why plays nobody Countryside Crusher in Zoo? If you have 3 mana in play you won't get more mana and he would be the biggest creature in play. Furthermore, he synergies with KotR if you play him. This is the reason why I asked for Countryside Crusher in Zoo (not Goyf Sligh).
Thanks for your help.
greets.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Heey,
I have a question to Countryside Crusher:
Why plays nobody Countryside Crusher in Zoo? If you have 3 mana in play you won't get more mana and he would be the biggest creature in play. Furthermore, he synergies with KotR if you play him. This is the reason why I asked for Countryside Crusher in Zoo (not Goyf Sligh).
Thanks for your help.
greets.

Well, first problem is that his synergy with knight can be completely discounted because you only have room for two three drops in the deck. Is he really better than thoctar or knight? You'd have to test him out and see. I myself do not know because I have never tried him, but I don't feel like he's really good enough. He eats a lightning bolt when he comes into play, and doesn't do battle with goyf until he's been down for a turn or three. He's probably really good with library though. If you test him, let us know how it goes.

[umbowta]

He's probably really good with library though.I think you're right on this point...but other than being a cutesy two card combo there are two libraries in the deck and, limiting yourself to two three drops, two Crushers. The probability of abusing the cutesy combo is less than pissing into the wind and staying dry.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Hey, for those of us running KoTR, has anyone considered running a barbarian ring, similar to our use of horizon canopy? As a tutorable efect, it could be pretty good to get uncounterable removal or final burn spell, and since it produces our main color and comes in untapped it wouldn't disrupt the mana base too much. It may be difficult to get to threshold in builds with lavamancer, but I'm not sure how difficult. I think going to try it as a singleton over my tenth fetch at my next tournament and see how it goes.

[Madmaniac21]

Has anyone given thought to hidden herd over Kird Ape?

I'm interested in the argument as to why it's not considered.

EDIT: Also, any changes for CB/Landstill heavy meta?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Has anyone given thought to hidden herd over Kird Ape?

I'm interested in the argument as to why it's not considered.


My first guess is just that he's a horrible top-deck. Late game it's going to be a 1 costing enchantment that gives the opponent another reason to not drop non-basics (he already has one since we run PoP). Early game against a few decks (Merfolk, mono-colored U, W, or B control) it will be up to the opponent whether they want to turn it into a creature.

That is a big price to pay for the 1 power difference, even if it can grow goyf.

[Gibsonmac]

Has anyone given thought to hidden herd over Kird Ape?

I'm interested in the argument as to why it's not considered.

EDIT: Also, any changes for CB/Landstill heavy meta?

Kird ape is strictly better, for reasons mentioned above...

@CB/Landstill heavy: Run more shusher/grip in the side, or if it's really heavy, put a couple shusher main, don't know your list, so I can't say what to cut.

[mackaber]

Yo, I just dropped a proof that sideboarded games are more than twice as important as non-sideboarded games.

If you just think about it in terms of raw # of games played instead of looking at the matchwin percentage, then you'll think, erroneously, that pre-boarded games are 2/3rds to 1/2 as important as boarded games (i.e. > 1/2 as important as boarded games), but they're actually less than half as important as boarded games to the overall match win %, even though they make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of the games played.

So another way to look at it: Even though you're playing less than twice as many sideboarded games as non-sideboarded games, the sideboarded games collectively contribute more than twice as much to determining who wins the match overall.

I'm sure there'll be some way to abuse that knowledge. Either practice sideboarded games more (barely anyone does this), practice boarding itself (very few people do this or really have a good grasp of what to board even in common MUs), or make changes to the maindeck and sideboard to perhaps sacrifice maindeck play in one matchup to increase your sideboarded play in another matchups.


But I responded generally to a post from a guy who was discounting the contribution of sideboarded games.

Just wanted to point out that from a statistical point of view what you are claiming here is absolute rubbish. Every game you play contributes equally (1/2 or 1/3) to winning a match. Since on average you will be playing more sideboarded games than non sideboarded games(unless your playing landstill lol) sideboarded games are more important. Simple as that.
That being said I tend to agree that people do not test enough with their sideboards.

[inkaras]

Well I got dethroned last night. Some bad draws and some bad luck on my part, I drew the bye first round, and lost second to an eva green type deck, well sorta but deeds, hand disruptions and removal with all the basic creatures. Anyways there were 3 other zoo decks in the meta now because of me. lol and zoo still won just wasn't be who was the pilot this time.

[Wargoos]

So I'm throwing this together, here's the list I plan on playing. (In the style of the hatfield lists)

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary II Wooly Thoctar
4 Path to Exile
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Libary
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Barbarian Ring II Another Fetch
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The list is essentially what I regard as "standart" for zoo.
Question is, if I should run the Thoctar and another fetchland or the reliquary-ring package.
I mainly played Goyf Sligh in the past and rin was a nice uncounterable dmg source, maybe it isn't worth it, but I think I'm better of asking.

[jandax]

Today I played in a Legacy side event for the first time and placed second with a close to "typical" Zoo deck, there were 12 to 14 people I recall. I was walking into a blind metagame, and used the OP's sideboard. The use of Horizon Canopy was apparent for me today, as against some decks you just run out of gas. Having that extra card would have been a needed boost had I used 2 or 3. I also thought OP's sideboard as-is runs pretty well. It felt easy sideboarding with no dead cards. Of course it can be tuned as per area. There's no more elegant way to beat face.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Today I played in a Legacy side event for the first time and placed second with a close to "typical" Zoo deck, there were 12 to 14 people I recall. I was walking into a blind metagame, and used the OP's sideboard. The use of Horizon Canopy was apparent for me today, as against some decks you just run out of gas. Having that extra card would have been a needed boost had I used 2 or 3. I also thought OP's sideboard as-is runs pretty well. It felt easy sideboarding with no dead cards. Of course it can be tuned as per area. There's no more elegant way to beat face.

Report?

[jandax]

Round 1: Vs ANT- textbook bye round for him. First hand I keep had two Nacatls and their appropriate lands, so 9 dmg by turn three sounded like a good start. That 9 damage was all I was allowed to deal... I sideboarded out 4 PtE and 2 Apes for 3 Teeg/Pyrostatic Pillar. I go first again and stick a kitty turn 1 and Teeg turn two. I get him in low life, but his Burning Wish for Firespout after a kicked Orim's Chant was all the time he needed to do his thang.

0-1

Round 2: Rock-ish deck. It had all the good cards in B/G/W, yet it was heavy with a set of Swords/PtE, plus Vindicate, plus a set of TS/Duress/Hymn. Bob lets him draw his Goyf's for the inevitable beats. Game 1 was a loss for him, he got deckchecked and shenanigens were called. Game two pre-board, a kitty, Sylvan Library and Big Country (aka Throctar) mitigate his Bob/weeGoyf and discard. We played two more rounds for fun and he destroyed me. Meh, I'll take the match win. It sucked loosing the first round, as it kills the tie breakers.

1-1

Round three: Fish. Game one Big Country hits the table turn three, after walking into two consecutive DAze's on my first turns, loosing a kitty and a Pridemage. His eyes grow big as the spell resolves, and his Reejerey and Mutavault grow pale. I burn face while he chumps, and that was that. I board out 2 PtE/4 Ape for 3 Choke and 3 Pithing Needle. In the second game I play a turn 5 Choke, after coaxing his opening hand's Counters with some critters. He goes to sacrifice that 1/1 who "counters target (instant/sorcery) unless its owner pays 1", so I pay one, he sacs another. Sad face and Choke goes to the yard. A player watching this match pointed out that we misread the card, that it only counters instants/sorceries. It was my next turn by this point, so the judge instructed us to back up a turn to the gamestate when Choke was cast. Hooray for outside interference. THe noob in me would have kept playing to a match loss w/o that Choke. But since it stuck, that was GG. Does Fish play Chains of Vapor or anything like that? I was anticipating a bounce spell so he could untap, but it never came.

2-1

Round four: Countertop w/ Bloodbraid. He's a friend, one who I knocked out of qualifying for Nat's this year with a nuts sealed pool (Apocolypse Hydra, Wall of Reverence, O ring, Volcanic Fallout, Flameblast dragon, etc etc). We knew what eachother were playing b/c the last round we sat side by side. His BB elf addition was kind of nice. It has good synergy with Top/Ancestral Visions. First game I land a kitty and Pridemage before he gets CounterTop out, I assume he's sandbagging one Force/Daze. I try to land a Sylvan Library as Im about out of gas, but that is countered. I start drawing burn and beating with my surviving kitty whilst his fat goyf is beating me. Too much burn/beats lets me win the race at 3 life. he was also running Bolts, so that was scary as he flipped his top card after he "drew" for the turn to show a Bolt. I side out Paths for choke and 1 ape for 2 Needles. Game two I don't get to play Magic. GAme three he counters the Choke in my opening hand, but I've a long head start on the damage race and he fumbles with CB and no Top.

3-1

Round five: Another CT player with a seemingly more standard build. He asks me to ID into the top four as it would help him, and I am already number 2 seed. I agree and we play three pre-boarded games for fun, him winning the first and third. Sylvan library and Jitte are bombs in this matchup, that's all I gotta say.

Top 4:

Same CT player with whom I ID'd. The judge coems over to ask us about prizes. He originally advertised this tournament as a qualifier for a yearly tournament that he throws here in the Netherlands, the winner getting the invite and places 2-4 getting prizes. Vote goes for the winner qualifying and we get down to gaming. Game one was a steam role. He kept a counter/top hand but no counters, and my two kitties and Big Country are too much. I board in Chokes and Pyrostatic Pillars for 2 apes and 4 PtE. Game two was more interesting as he assymbles his combo over my wee board and we go back and forth for a while. I draw Jitte, contemplate and decide to try and cast it. He tops with the CB trigger on the stack, sighs, and it resolves! I gues there was no 2cc card on top of his library. Welp, he lands a couple of Goyfs and goes to town. Big Country takes one down with him and my other goyf double blocks with a kitty. Kitty dies, and then he casts Rhox War Monk. Wtf! Sandbagging for the win....

Remember when I said Sylvan Lirbary/Jitte are the nuts verses CT? I was not lying. I filtered not one or two, but three Helixes over three turns plus one -1/-1 counter from Jitte to kill his THREE consecutively topdecked War Monks, preventing his lifegain and ultimate victory over my tired team. That was a good game. The other two players in top4 are my friend the CT w/Bloodbraid player, and the ANT player to whom I lost the first round. CT thinks and ponders over every card play and their match, although two games for him, lasted 1hr 20min. Slow play is ghey.

4-1-1, 2nd seed

Finals:

Game one I get some dudes under his top Combo, but three Vendilion Cliques wreck my hand and Riptide Lab helps them to do so. I got him down to 7 before he soft locked me with C/T, and countered my burn, effectively letting me run out of gas and play off the top of my deck. out come the Paths and Apes for Choke/Pithing Needle/Pyrostatic Pillar. My opening hand sees two duals, a kitty, Needle, Pillar, and some burn. Keep, land, Needle on Top, go. Looking back I should have named Polluted Delta, as not only did he have a couple in his hand, but it'd have given me an extra turn or two to drop dudes whilst he asymbles his combo. Pillar is cast on turn two, to which he agrees, and the race is on. Kitty beats a couple of times but is bolted. Every creature I play gets countered from hand, so we both take two damage in the process. We both stick a goyf, and now he has his combo online about 5 turns after Pillar sticks. Race race race. With both of us at low life, he ventures into burn range to gank my Goyf and then beat me with it for the win. I had two basic lands in hand and 7 in play wtih a ton of fetchlands in teh yard. Where were you KotR?!?! 0-2 loss for that match taking Second Place.

This was my first Legacy event, and I am quite pleased iwth the format and my performance. I made a few mistakes from which I learned, and more importantly got a good look at the decks to beat. My prizes were a box of matte back sleeves (actually a nice prize as they're quite handy come tournament time) and four boosters, Onslaut, Future Sight, Mirrodin, Dissension. I pulled a Polluted delta, woot, and some interesting EDH cards in the other packs.

Here's the list I ran:

Creatures;
4x Goyf
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x KotR
2x Big Country
Burn:
4x Bolt
4x Helix
Utility:
4x Path to Exile
2x Sylvan Library
2x Jitte

Land:
12 Fetchlands (GW, GR, RW)
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
3x Pithing Needle/Teeg/Choke/Pyrostatic Pillar/Ancient Grudge

Notes:

Creatures- I enjoyed having 4 3cc big beats. Unanswered they go all the way, and thanks to 12 fetchlands, KotR gets fat quick. I could see cutting two for extra burn in the form of Chain Lightning or Fireblast. Kird Ape was solidly sideboarded out the whole tournament. I also think 4 Lavamancers is the best, because I only have three, I only ran three. They definitely help in control matchups, as it gives Zoo more inevitability. I think I'd cut an Ape for the fourth 'mancer, and leave the 4 3cc slot alone.

Burn:
more can always be better. Again I see Ape as the weakest link to cut for an additional three/four burn spells. I'll probably go for Price of Progress as a three of complement.

Land:
12 fetchlands worked well, but having 2 or 3 Horizon Canopies would have turned games around I think. I think I'll cut some fetchlands for Canopies, probably three, as they still end up in the yard for Knight.

Sideboard:

Ancient grudge goes out. I was walking blind into the metagame, and don't have any Grips. Krosan Grip definitely replaces it. Also, if my meta is indeed Top heavy (get it?!?) then I'll add three Vexing Shusher to the board in place of Pillars. Pillars got a lot of interesting feedback, as folks had either never seen the card or had no idea how to play against it. I think its shock value (puns galore!) gave it the success it enjoyed. Yet, it can easily leave for Shushers.

Comments and critique are always welcome. Feel free to stick it here or PM me!

[chains]

Well I got dethroned last night. Some bad draws and some bad luck on my part, I drew the bye first round, and lost second to an eva green type deck, well sorta but deeds, hand disruptions and removal with all the basic creatures. Anyways there were 3 other zoo decks in the meta now because of me. lol and zoo still won just wasn't be who was the pilot this time.

Sorry, but where are you from? I've been seeing a meta very similar here in my town (country).

Anyway.. Last tournament 3~4 Zoo were hanging around looking for a chance, but all of then were beaten by Stax variants or Combo. :(

[hungryLIKEALION]

I have a bzarrely good match record against stax, but I attribute that far more to me being exceedingly lucky than to it being a decent matchup.

[TotallySweet]

I have a bzarrely good match record against stax, but I attribute that far more to me being exceedingly lucky than to it being a decent matchup.

I just took first with Zoo at a legacy tourney beating Ichorid 2-0, Belcher 2-0, Tempo Thresh 2-1, Death and Taxes 2-1.

It's better to be lucky than good.

[jandax]

Nah, in the end it's better to be good. Zoo is consistent enough to be lucky on its own.

[TotallySweet]

That's why I play it! That and it being an incredibly fun deck to use. I should have qualified my statement with "Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good." My point was that in the trouble machups like stax that hungrylikealion mentioned and combo that I mentioned, being lucky is often better than being good (your victory relies more on your opponent getting bad dredges or having to make goblin tokens instead of casting tendrils for 20 rather than awesome plays on Zoo's part). And let's not forget that pairings are their own, very important sort of luck. =/

[jandax]

Yup, I definitely felt lucky going to finals with a sub par deck. Like I said, there is no more elegant way to beat face.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yup, I definitely felt lucky going to finals with a sub par deck. Like I said, there is no more elegant way to beat face.

The Big Country nickname is priceless FYI. I wish i woulda thought about that.

[jandax]

The Big Country nickname is priceless FYI. I wish i woulda thought about that.

Use it. It's like announcing a Pro Wrestler when he hits the tables.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/michael-buffer.jpg

Aaand in the Red Zone, for just a red, green, and a white,..Biiiiiig Country!

[DCTopTeam]

You guys should try the green and white "Seals" (Seal of Primordium and Seal of Cleansing) I currently run one Cleansing and one Primordium main but none in SB. It makes a 3/4 Goyf an instant 5/6. Plus, has anyone tried Lox Hierarch? Please tell me the result because I currently want to try the dude and any comments on Magma Jet?

[Gibsonmac]

You guys should try the green and white "Seals" (Seal of Primordium and Seal of Cleansing) I currently run one Cleansing and one Primordium main but none in SB. It makes a 3/4 Goyf an instant 5/6. Plus, has anyone tried Lox Hierarch? Please tell me the result because I currently want to try the dude and any comments on Magma Jet?

Magma jet is absolute shit in this deck, its been discussed a whole lot, check the previous pages in the thread... and the seals make the 3/4, a 4/5 not a 5/6 (unless you hit an artifact), the seals are much weaker than pridemage, why run them? 4 maindeck answers is plenty, and with a couple grips in the side, thats a whole lotta answers.

[Micki]

Hello again!

Last weekend I played in a big tournament (89 players) here in Finland and went pathetically 3-0-4 with the following list;

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Price of Pogress
2 Choke
2 Vexing Shusher

Game 1; Mirror 0-0-1

Not much to say really, he played better. 0-2

Game 2; Affinity 0-0-2

Disaster! I win game 1 in about five minutes and feel very confidant since my MU after sideboarding should be even better. After a good starting hand I draw shit and we raze until he's at 9 life and I'm at 7. I draw Price of Progress with him having 5 artifact lands and I have 3 duals. I think I finally have it and play PoP, he responds with Shrapnel Blast sacking one of his lands... :cry: Game 3 I start of good with Bolt, StoP, Grip and two Tarmo in hand. He plays Path on my Goyfs after which I draw lands. 1-2

Game 3; MBA 1-0-2

He plays some kind of budget version without sinkhole and duress instead of thoughtseize. Not much of a game really 2-0

Game 4; Tempotresh 1-0-3

Game 1 I think he had at least 8 stifle and 23 wasteland in his opening hand after which I have one forest and don't draw any more lands. Game 2 I play like a two-year old, for example; after trying to play Path on his Mongoose turn three and suddenly remembering that it can't be targeted, I find it to be a good play to try to blast the same Mongoose on turn four... 0-2

Game 5; Elves 2-0-3

Game 1 I draw every card I wish for and have no problem getting rid of his lords, Tarmo rules. After siding in two StoP and the second Jitte Game 2 is even easier. 2-0

Game 6; Ichorid 2-0-4

I still don't understand the deck so mainly I sit and listen to him explaining what his doing and on about turn three he hits me with 12 tokens. Game 2, same story. 0-2

Game 7; some kind of UWB milldeck 3-0-4

I've played against him in a smaller tourney with my Enchantress deck which of course is slower so I now what the deck is about. He plays a lot of cheap type 2 cards (Terramorphic Expanse as fetch and so on) and I feel a bit sorry for him. This time my deck is just too fast and he doesn't get to play much. Game 2 I get a choke to stick and after that he doesn't play anything. 2-0

Some thoughts about my deck; For starters I don't get to play that much which means that I tend to loose all even games because my opponent plays better, in this tournament I should of course have won the affinity deck and I could have won against Tempotresh and the other Zoo-deck.

KotR was a disappointment, he never got bigger than 4/4 and most of the time I had better things to do with my mana, I also had to make difficult choices between using Mancer or keeping him big a couple of times.
Figure of Destiny on the other hand was surprisingly good, I was always glad to see him/her (which is it) and he/she was almost always 4/4. Jitte was awesome every time I saw it and won me the second elves game. Library did not work that well and I never felt I could afford to actually draw cards from it. The times I had library in play I didn't have the fetches to filter away bad topdecks. Fireblast was ok but not more and PoP I only got to play the one time I lost against affinity.

In conclusion; Sideboarding against dredge or combo is a waste of time (at least for me). I found myself topdecking a lot and would love to have some kind of cantripcards. Though Knight was good in testing and I love the card, Thoctar is probably better in that spot (for me that is, I don' want to start another 45 pages long debate about this thing). 2x Jitte and 2x Figure MD!!

Now I would like to hear comments about the 4 color version of Zoo, I'd like to play Confidant because as I said, I felt I run out of cards all the time and many games I was just wishing for a good topdeck. Perhaps it's just me being a poor player but after playing mainly Thresh and Enchantress earlier I feel the deck needs drawing. Is the main reason for not playing four colors the more fragile manabase and vulnerability to wasteland and other LD or do you just think that the fourth color isn't necessary?
Here is the build I was thinking of, I would very much appreciate help and comments both on the decklist and four colors general.

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Tribal Flames
3 Lightning Helix
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Pogress
2 Choke
3 Vexing Shusher

Though I'm not that experienced a player and my posts probably don't make any DTB deck better it would still be nice to get some reply to my questions.

[jandax]

Yeah, Seals, along with Magma shit, are weak cards. First off, the Seal of Primordium/Cleansing doesn't beat face. the 2/2 body with Exalted beats face. Oh yeah, and it kills that stupid CounterTop combo dead. I would replace those two cards in your maindeck wtih Pridemages, or a pair of Flameblast.

Edit:

Posted at the time of this report-

You do know that results are posted as Wins-Losses-draws, right? That means you'd go 3-4, not 3-0-4. On the four color Zoo build, this is the RWG zoo thread, and should stay that way. Not being snappy or reprimanding here, just saying that straying from the original beats isn't a good idea. Also, on your list, don't give up on KotR. It is one of those cards you keep in hand for when your goyfs are dead. She's a fat wall, fixes mana, and I run 10-12 fetch lands because of her. In the end a 4/4 for three isn't a bad deal, and one that gets pumped every turn is even better. I'd replace that maindeck Figure with another Jitte. Drawing that card is the answer to so many problems. Figure is just another mana pit. I remember last tournament that KotR was atleast 6/6 when I cast her every time she resolved, winning Goyf stalemates is what she is good at. And how did Leyline work for you? It totally hoses dredge, but it forces you to mulligan in order to get one in an opening hand, so was that worth it for you?

[Mantis]

Game 2; Affinity 0-0-2

After a good starting hand I draw shit and we raze until he's at 9 life and I'm at 7. I draw Price of Progress with him having 5 artifact lands and I have 3 duals. I think I finally have it and play PoP, he responds with Shrapnel Blast sacking one of his lands..

Eh, you draw that game right?

[Micki]

No, I lost 1-2

[Micki]

@jandax; Thank You for correcting me (3-4 not 3-0-4), this shows how much I know. Leyline kills dredge but you need to mulligan a lot so I don't know yet.

[Mantis]

No, I lost 1-2
I mean: if you are at 7 life, you play PoP and he plays Shrapnel Blast in resp you both die to PoP making the game a draw instead of a loss for you.

[lordofthepit]

I mean: if you are at 7 life, you play PoP and he plays Shrapnel Blast in resp you both die to PoP making the game a draw instead of a loss for you.

He sacked one of the lands to the Blast, so he'd take 8 damage, which is non-lethal.

[Micki]

If he sack one of his lands to shrapnel blast I only do 8 damage to him.

[Micki]

@lordofthepit you were a bit faster:smile:

[Mantis]

Oh sure, thanks for clearing it up ;).

[Gibsonmac]

@Mikki, I would stay off black, we rock the library to improve consistency and to have some say on our life total, it's an all around better card in this particular deck, also doesn't die to StP, fire//ice, Bolt, et cetera et cetera... your report is a little confusing, not really sure how you did exactly...

As for going 4 colors, it's generally a very very bad idea, you become superlatively vulnerable to stifle/waste, and your consistency goes to hell. If you want more draw, try playing 3 horizon canopy, I find it works very well.

Some Advice:
-Definitely go with more Horizon Canopy.
-I would bring the PoP in your naya build to the Sideboard.
-I would probably cut Helix for a Jitte, Kird Ape, and Fireblast
-You probably just need a little more experience with the deck to improve your win%, there are some tough plays to make sometimes, and more time with the deck will make you a more competent pilot with it... It's not the kinda 'dumb aggro' deck that requires no skill or experience to pilot, its not 'go all-in, do as much damage as fast as possible with no thought or interaction with the opponent, goldfishing'... its not burn or goyf sligh.

-keep the Knight for a while, at least until you do more testing with a tighter build (tighter for you that is, I'm not saying your list is bad). Look at knight as an tool/asset that feeds your lavamancer, its is really nice to be able to always have cards to remove to plow through random chump blockers, that said, sometimes it is the correct choice to play Thoctar, just depends what you expect to see that day, he's more speedy power, where knight is more slow set-up but improves your board position in the long run.

-I really believe that 3 fireblast is the right number, it's a really powerful play most times, and gives Knight +2/+2, running 3 improves the consistency hove having one when you need it.

Conclusion: it's generally a bad idea to go outside the 'naya' manabase, and 4c is usually really bad, worse actually, you do not gain anything that can't be done with RGW.

[Happy Gilmore]

Knight is a great card don't get me wrong, but with 4 lavamancers you really want Thoctar over the knight. There are other reasons but I'm positive this is correct. Either way you should only be running a max of 2 in the main, as they can get stuck in your hand early/mid game. At the last Vestal tournament I ran 3 library and liked it, but I feel 2 is still the correct number. The card will win the mirror match, as it normally comes down to who can stick a library for longer.

[Micki]

@Gibsonmac Thank You and yes my report is confusing so here is a shorter version;

Game 1; Mirror 0-2
Game 2; Affinity 1-2
Game 3; MBA 2-0
Game 4; Tempotresh 0-2
Game 5; Elves 2-0
Game 6; Ichorid 0-2
Game 7; ? 2-0

So the result was 3-4. Maybe I'll give the Knights another chance and go

-3 Lightning Helix
-1 Figure

+1 Fireblast
+1 Kird Ape
+1 Jitte
+1 Canopy

[chimchimm]

Knight is a great card don't get me wrong, but with 4 lavamancers you really want Thoctar over the knight. There are other reasons but I'm positive this is correct. Either way you should only be running a max of 2 in the main, as they can get stuck in your hand early/mid game. At the last Vestal tournament I ran 3 library and liked it, but I feel 2 is still the correct number. The card will win the mirror match, as it normally comes down to who can stick a library for longer.


Could you explain this to me please. I keep reading this over and over and it just doesn't seem obvious to me. (the part about running thoctar over knight because of lavamancer)

[Gibsonmac]

yeah, it depends on what you expect to see, but the synergy of knight/lavamancer can be very strong, as the knight feeds lavamancer.

[Micki]

@Gibsonmac What is your manabase if you're able to fit in three Canopys?

[Gibsonmac]

@Gibsonmac What is your manabase if you're able to fit in three Canopys?

21 Land:

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

2 Arid Mesa
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

-9 fetchlands, doesn't matter how you split them, they're all on-color... the canopy's are almost like pseudo fetchlands, but give you card advantage when you need them... so the base stays similar to 12 fetch builds, but with greater utility

-I never have problems with flooding really, I like 21 lands quite a bit, as the canopy's are used more like spells that happen to produce mana, it has worked very well

*EDIT*-if you have trouble finding space, try sticking to 1 jitte in the main for the extra canopy, and add a jitte to the SB instead, unless you already have 2 total, 2 is good

[Micki]

I actually removed the second Canopy and went from 21 to 20 lands to fit in the single Figure of Destiny so changing that is just going back to how I played earlier. -1 fetch for the third Canopy seems like a good idea. I have played one Jitte MD and one SB but I think i will go 2 MD regardless of how many colors I run, I was never disappointed to see the card and boarded in the second one in every game (except Ichorid).

[chimchimm]

Yea exactly what I thought, which is why I am confused as to why if you were running lavamancer (which might I say your crazy not to) than thoctar is an auto include over knight? I personally run thoctar over knight and play lavamancer BUT I just didn't understand why he was saying thoctar is an auto include over knight if you're running mancer pants.

EDIT: this response came up late cause my interwebs crashed off and I just left the window open ready to send :-P

[GGoober]

I'm taking this innovative list today. I'll see how I do. Steppe Lynx has proved to be a stellar 1cc creature:


GATO (CAT) ZOO

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heaths
4 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile

SIDEBOARD:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Price of Progress
2 Ancient Grudge

The overall curve is greatly lowered and the ability of Lynx to hit for 4 consistently makes the deck faster. I think this is a hybrid of Goyf Sligh/Boros Landfall and Zoo. I'll post results and a report if it's worth discussin at all

[jandax]

Right off, I'd highly recommend adding a pair of Sylvan Libraries and Jittes to the list. Ancient Grudge is outclassed by Grip/Pridemage so there are two slots right there. I feel you'll be really happy with the results. Otherwise it looks promising and I'll swap some cards adn give it a shot as well.

[Micki]

Steppe Lynx seems like an interesting card to try, at least if you run 12 fetches. Personally I would probably play it instead of the Apes though and keep the Lavamancers. I would maybe cut the Rift Bolts for 2x Jitte and 2x Library.

[jandax]

Yeah, that's a pretty good substitution. Even in a vacuum, 2 libraries/Jitte is better than 4 Rift Bolt. Way more useful.

Otherwise I like this list, except the two Grudges in the board :tongue:

[Rizso]

I really dislikes the kird Ape, so im testing the Steppe Lynx as well. Im playing a Domain version thought with 10 fetch, 4 tribal flames, 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Figure of destiney, 4 lightning Helix and no 3cc dropps. Many times the lynx enters the game t1 then followed up turn 2 with a fetch+ Pridemage and doing 5 damage that turn 2 attack or followed up with a bob to keep the lynx fueled.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'm taking this innovative list today. I'll see how I do. Steppe Lynx has proved to be a stellar 1cc creature:


GATO (CAT) ZOO

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heaths
4 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile

SIDEBOARD:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Price of Progress
2 Ancient Grudge

The overall curve is greatly lowered and the ability of Lynx to hit for 4 consistently makes the deck faster. I think this is a hybrid of Goyf Sligh/Boros Landfall and Zoo. I'll post results and a report if it's worth discussin at all

You're missing so much stuff...
Path #4
Lightning Helix
Jitte/Cursed Scroll

[Gibsonmac]

yeah dude, for the love of god, drop rift bolt, add library, lavamancer and path #4, I'd probably cut the apes if you play lynx... you have no draw engine, this deck's bread and butter, what separates it from goyf sligh (what makes it a dtb) is the mid/late game stability, the ability to NOT fizzle out and run out of gas, you should try to find room for the cards you're missing out on, also run at least a singleton jitte, you'd be surprised how randomly awesome it is

[Pastorofmuppets]

yeah dude, for the love of god, drop rift bolt, add library, lavamancer and path #4, I'd probably cut the apes if you play lynx... you have no draw engine, this deck's bread and butter, what separates it from goyf sligh (what makes it a dtb) is the mid/late game stability, the ability to NOT fizzle out and run out of gas, you should try to find room for the cards you're missing out on, also run at least a singleton jitte, you'd be surprised how randomly awesome it is

I've always thought Scroll was better. What's the general consensus?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've always thought Scroll was better. What's the general consensus?

+1

But seriously. Scroll is STILL a house in my opinion. Control just shakes in their boots as their Sower of Temptation dies and you wittle their life down when they think you're out of the battle.

[Gibsonmac]

I LOVE Scroll, it holds a near and dear place in my heart, absolutely love that card, always have... that said, the mana investment is a little steep, has other drawbacks(but what doesn't right?) now there are better options, and like so many other cards it has kinda been outclassed... maybe as a 1of in addition to 3 lavamancers would be kinda sassy. I think I might try it out.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I LOVE Scroll, it holds a near and dear place in my heart, absolutely love that card, always have... that said, the mana investment is a little steep, has other drawbacks(but what doesn't right?) now there are better options, and like so many other cards it has kinda been outclassed... maybe as a 1of in addition to 3 lavamancers would be kinda sassy. I think I might try it out.

I ran Scroll as a two for like half a year i believe. I think it was that long anyway. It makes your good matchups(Goblins/Merfolk) better, and they make your control matchup better. Which in my opinion is pretty miserable in the first place.

It's a good card. I wouldn't run it in the Fireblast/Chain Lightning/etc. list but i would run it in something slower like i used to run. I loved my deck and it felt like i was playing Zoo and not just some Goyf Sligh/Zoo hybrid.

[DCTopTeam]

Im confused with Sylvan Library. Is it a Brainstorm-like effect if you opt not to pay 4 lives because the way I understood it the Library reads:

"At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

So:

Untap
Upkeep
Normal Draw... Library triggers so u technically drew 3 cards and return two (if you opt not to pay 4) so its like having three options on what to draw? The key word in the Sylvan Lib is "this turn" so I assume the normal draw is included.

Thanks!

[FoulQ]

@ DCTopTeam: Yes.

It is sort of like topping in your upkeep for free (Except it is in your draw phase technically). And the whole pay life thing of course.

[DCTopTeam]

@ DCTopTeam: Yes.

It is sort of like topping in your upkeep for free (Except it is in your draw phase technically). And the whole pay life thing of course.

Thanks!. I will try at least two Libraries then. Id just drop the Jets for them.

[GGoober]

Went 2-2 today (beat Merfolk, Faeries, lost closely to Valakut Lands and Deadguy). I think I made a slight play mistake against Lands and I let my friend in Deadguy take back a move that probably costed me the game since I was 2 points of damage short of swinging.

Anyway, I like the deck and definitely agree on taking Kird Apes out for Sylvan Library and a lone Jitte. I'll post a report soon. Gotta go do homework!

[jandax]

Unless there are already 20+ critters, I wouldn't cut Apes for a non beater. However, if it is a burn heavy list then sure.

I am also on the Scroll Bandwagon. Since 1997 that has been one of my favorite cards (top 3 at least), and although I don't run any copies, I have a pair stored away for a rainy day.

[Micki]

Do people actually still play Scroll? Somehow it seems so old and slow. I've never tested it in zoo but if you are playing it instead of Jitte I can't say I understand how it could be better. Anyhow, here's the list I'm playing next weekend;

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Price of Pogress
2 Choke
3 Vexing Shusher

Changes from the champs disaster are;

MD
-1 Figure
-3 Helix
-1 Heath
+1 Ape
+1 Fireblast
+1 Jitte
+2 Canopy

I haven't had time to get me some steppe lynx jet but when I will I think I'll try them in the Apes spot. A question to those who run Figures, in what spot would you run them? I was thinking of testing a 2/2 split whit the Apes but I'm trying to move away from a list with 49 1 drops against a more "compact" list to get more consistency (is that even the right word the Finnish guy's asking himself while writing) in the deck.

[Gibsonmac]

Do people actually still play Scroll? Somehow it seems so old and slow. I've never tested it in zoo but if you are playing it instead of Jitte I can't say I understand how it could be better. Anyhow, here's the list I'm playing next weekend;

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Price of Pogress
2 Choke
3 Vexing Shusher

Changes from the champs disaster are;

MD
-1 Figure
-3 Helix
-1 Heath
+1 Ape
+1 Fireblast
+1 Jitte
+2 Canopy

I haven't had time to get me some steppe lynx jet but when I will I think I'll try them in the Apes spot. A question to those who run Figures, in what spot would you run them? I was thinking of testing a 2/2 split whit the Apes but I'm trying to move away from a list with 49 1 drops against a more "compact" list to get more consistency (is that even the right word the Finnish guy's asking himself while writing) in the deck.

Looks like a very solid build, hope you do well... no one really plays scroll anymore (not at top tables in big events anyway) it's more of a nostalgia factor...

As for figure, try out the 2/2 ape split, you really do not want any more than 2 in a build, as you do not want to see multiples in a game, I've always found the card was weak comparatively, with the required mana investment to make him useful and all... he can bring the beats as a 1 of against random control, but altogether not so consistent, he mostly stays a 2/2 sometimes (somewhat rarely) a 4/4, and for that I'd rather pay R for an auto 2/3

[memnarch]

As for figure, try out the 2/2 ape split, you really do not want any more than 2 in a build, as you do not want to see multiples in a game, I've always found the card was weak comparatively, with the required mana investment to make him useful and all... he can bring the beats as a 1 of against random control, but altogether not so consistent, he mostly stays a 2/2 sometimes (somewhat rarely) a 4/4, and for that I'd rather pay R for an auto 2/3

I use 2 Figures in my build too. I find him to really help give the deck some late game omph. an 8/8 trumps most other 5/5 range flyers, I mean hell, he will even take down a simian sky swallower for you. So I might actually up the number to 3 some time we will see. Although overall I find Lavamancer a more useful utility creature for 1 in general. But as far as you guys saying drop the rift bolts I think this is a pretty bad idea. This decks curve is at 1 essentially which means its vulnerable to COV and sensei/balance. Anything you can do to circumvent this will help you in those match ups. For this reason I recommend packing K grips in the side and using rift bolt main as a neat trick to circumvent COV=1 and have a slightly better chance with a balance out.

[DCTopTeam]

Has anyone tried Loxodon Hierarch? Hes a solid topdeck IMHO. Feedbacks please?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Sure he's a solid topdeck but he gums up your hand early (Even more so than knight and thoctar) and since our deck is already extremely susceptible to wasteland and stifle getting to four mana to play him in a timely fashion is extremely ambitious. You're really much better off playing Thoctar or Knight; Either of those will be bigger, and they're far easier to cast.

[Gibsonmac]

+1, not a good card in this deck, although it does depend on what you see on a regular basis, possible sideboard spot if you don't see much tempo thresh/dreadstill etc.

[hungryLIKEALION]

You really want to save sideboard space for things better than big dumb beaters...

[Gibsonmac]

Again, +1...

[hungryLIKEALION]

Yeah. If you feel like you need lifegain for some reason just play lightning helix (i argue that you should already be doing so with how prevalent mirrors have become) and extra jittes.

[memnarch]

That's a good point about Helix Lion, but would you be willing to jump to 2 cc just for the lifegain? Over other 1 cc burn spells? Or are you saying as a sideboard option?

[Justin]

Some more thoughts on Cursed Scroll.

This is not a bad card in the right format. It was good when it was legal in Extended and saw some play in the early years of Legacy. It's strength was that it could help push though those final points of damage at the end of a game when the deck had otherwise run out of gas. You might get your opponent down to 3-5 life and then use a repeated scroll to finish.

I think the main reason why Cursed Scroll is not so good for today's Legacy is that so many good cards have been printed in the past 2-3 years. We've got all kinds of improved creatures that put the opponent on a shorter clock. Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf are the obvious staples, but there are many other cards than are better than most zoo creatures from a few years ago (Landfall creatures, Goblin Guide, Figure of Destiny, Woolly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, etc.) The bottom line is that zoo is much faster today than it was a few years ago. It wins a turn earlier and is less likely to run out of gas. Therefore, the function that Cursed Scroll used to play is no longer needed. I actually played the card for years, but I found myself wishing it was a burn spell or creature toward the end and eventually dropped it.

Another thing that weakens Cursed Scroll is the printing of all the new tribal lords. Scroll is normally excellent against tribal decks, but todays decks (particularly Merfolk and Elves) run 10-12 lords. Scroll then cannot kill one of them by itself if more than one lord is on the board.

Ultimately, I think Cursed Scroll has run its course as a good choice for Legacy.

[Gibsonmac]

If I recall, he plays them main (he has a slightly different take on zoo than I do) I would probably do Helix in the side board if you really found it to be necessary, but I really do not find the need for excess lifegain atm. I do not like the card in the deck, at least not in my personal brand of Zoo, it really depends on what the rest of your deck is like, as to whether or not the card has merit, which is (or should be) highly dependent on what your own local meta looks like (your decklist that is).

The one card I do not believe has a home in Zoo at this point is Figure, not as a set anyways... I do agree, that as a random 1-of, he can do some pretty dumb stuff to the opponent, but the occasion is so rare that... well you know...

At this point, I believe the way you beat the field with this deck, the mirrors especially, is to have the most consistent, stream-lined, most efficient build conceivable, every card has to earn its spot, and every card needs to be a real threat... I am not proposing going goyf sligh in any way at all, we cannot lose versatility and staying power... Rather, that our burn needs to be the most efficient available (truly efficient, not what passes for it in RDW or sligh) our creatures need to be the most efficient available, and right when played, not 4 turns later possibly, maybe, sorta if we get surplus land floods... which brings me to KotR v. Thoctar... to me it is still unknown at this point which is correct, both, neither, it really depends on play style, obviously Thoctar will most times be bigger that knight right of the bat, which goes with the philosophy of success, however the synergy of knight/fetch/lavamancer is staying power and versatility (synergy meant by knight putting things in the yard for lavamancer to consume, which believe it or not, and contrary to the 'anti-synergistic' on-the-hole appearance of said combo, is truly powerful in many situations).... So in the event that one would like to play neither KotR or Thoctar, perhaps that is where figure will find a home as a 2-of... I'm not to that point, I like both Kight and Thoctar, and switch hit them according to the occasion...

Whatchyall Thinkin??

[Valtrix]

The one card I do not believe has a home in Zoo at this point is Figure, not as a set anyways... I do agree, that as a random 1-of, he can do some pretty dumb stuff to the opponent, but the occasion is so rare that... well you know...

Whatchyall Thinkin??

I'm trying out 1 figure in place of the 4th kird ape I'm running. While I'm not sure if I'll like it yet or not, I like the idea at least right now, to give me a little extra later-game oomph, but not really significantly hindering me.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Personally, I believe there are only two playable 1cc burn spells; Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Obviously Bolt is an auto 4 of. Chain is very good, but not absolutely neccesary. Zoo usually wants to have at least an eight pack of burn spells. When Chain Lightning is not present, Lightning Helix almost assuredly is. However, there is easily room in the deck for 12 burn spells. Right now I'm running 9 burn spells, 4 bolt, 4 helix, 1 chain. As I acquire more chain lightnings I'll probably add them in place of other non-burn spells. (For example, I intend to cut my reckless charges for them.) I don't play fireblast, so the chains will basically be sliding into those slots.

Point is, if you don't want to cut a 1cc burn spell for helix, you don't have to. If you really like fireblast and the 1cc burn package, then power to you. However, I have had a great many experiences with Lightning Helix where it has proved its worth to me. It's great for the mirror, can be used to trick decks like dredge or occasionally storm where you pull yourself out of lethal range via lifegain, it more or less cantrips with library in play, and it's instant speed; These are all very useful traits for a spell to have. Plus, it dodges chalice@1.

But yeah, I would never say Helix in the sideboard. Play it main if you're gonna play it. If you need the lifegain, I say yes, the 2cc is worth it. It's a great spell.

[Gibsonmac]

I'm trying out 1 figure in place of the 4th kird ape I'm running. While I'm not sure if I'll like it yet or not, I like the idea at least right now, to give me a little extra later-game oomph, but not really significantly hindering me.

yeah I've offered that advice to people hellbent on playing figure, they liked it I believe, although as l said, it really depends what you play against regularly, and what kind of player you are... ie. do you play in weekly/semi-weekly FNM-type legacy events, or scg 5k's, or monstrous euro tourneys... each answer would have a different response as to what I'd advise going into a list, and which cards theoretically would, or would not, work in the deck... taking meta's for each into account of course.

the 3cc slot might be a home for figure in the future, can be played more consistently, and you really have to think of him being a 3cc+ dude anyway due to mana investment, who can come down early, so if one was dead set on running figure, that would be the place to start... personally I prefer Knight/thoctar still, but there may come a day when I might be looking to try something like this out.

[Gibsonmac]

Personally, I believe there are only two playable 1cc burn spells; Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Obviously Bolt is an auto 4 of. Chain is very good, but not absolutely neccesary. Zoo usually wants to have at least an eight pack of burn spells. When Chain Lightning is not present, Lightning Helix almost assuredly is. However, there is easily room in the deck for 12 burn spells. Right now I'm running 9 burn spells, 4 bolt, 4 helix, 1 chain. As I acquire more chain lightnings I'll probably add them in place of other non-burn spells. (For example, I intend to cut my reckless charges for them.) I don't play fireblast, so the chains will basically be sliding into those slots.

Point is, if you don't want to cut a 1cc burn spell for helix, you don't have to. If you really like fireblast and the 1cc burn package, then power to you. However, I have had a great many experiences with Lightning Helix where it has proved its worth to me. It's great for the mirror, can be used to trick decks like dredge or occasionally storm where you pull yourself out of lethal range via lifegain, it more or less cantrips with library in play, and it's instant speed; These are all very useful traits for a spell to have. Plus, it dodges chalice@1.

But yeah, I would never say Helix in the sideboard. Play it main if you're gonna play it. If you need the lifegain, I say yes, the 2cc is worth it. It's a great spell.

Hey, what is your build looking like these days, how have tourney results been for you as of late... what was your reasoning for not running fireblast again?

[Svenyboy]

Hello,
I've saw the Rubin Zoo by Brian Kibler in PT Austin and I thought you can play this build in Legacy, too. The combo consists between Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows.
First of all I saw 3 Baneslayer Angel. Baneslayer Angel is a amazing card but not in 1.5. It's tooo expensive. I think this build is somethink like an midrange deck which consits of a little bit Burn with the best threats. Here is my list:

Creature:
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Meddling Mage
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Land:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra

-> I play the best critters in 1.5. Rhox War Monk, Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf is the midrange beatdown plan. Qasali Pridemage and Meddling Mage is a little bit hate against Countertop and other builds (but I'm not sure with Meddling Mage, maybe better in the board). Noble Hierarch is for our speed. It's important to get our Rhox War Monk in Turn 3 because this makes difference between other Zoo and Midrange decks and Aggro-Control decks.
Furthermore we play 4 color and he fix our mana with the right colors.
But we won't see 2, that's the reason why I play 3. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Punishing Fire (Combo) and StoP is our Removal for other threats.
I think 6 cc3 drops are enough because 4 KotR is a little bit to chunky.
Wild Nacatl is our second one drop. It gives our deck the aggro part.
Fireblast isn't good in this build because we don't have the manabase to sacrifice two Mountains. Price of Progress is amazing but not in this build with 12 nonbasic lands.

Now what do you think about this kind of midrange-aggro build?

[LostButSeeking]

Hello,
I've saw the Rubin Zoo by Brian Kibler in PT Austin and I thought you can play this build in Legacy, too. The combo consists between Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows.

In the format and development forum, there's a SCD discussion about the burnwillows/punishing fire combo. The consensus was that, while it was useful against aggro decks in extended (allowing the deck to take the control stance more naturally), the same isn't true in legacy. Zoo, the standard in aggro, has only a handful of creatures with toughness of two or less.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Well, I haven't Played the deck at a tournament in a few weeks. But my list (and the list I intend to run at the end of this month in the mox tournament) looks like this;

4x nacatl
4x goyf
4x pridemage
3x lavamancer
2x kird ape (intending to test steppe lynx here)
2x figure
2x knight
4x bolt
4x helix
4x path
2x chain
2x library
1x jitte
1x vines of vastwood/reckless charge
4x windswept Heath
3x wooded foothills
3x arid mesa
3x plateau
2x taiga
2x savannah
1x plains
1x forest
1x mountain
1x horizon canopy

that's my current 'safe' list. There are some cards I intend to test, like a singleton barbarian ring, but that's for another time.

I've gotten first or split the finals of every legacy tournament I've played in the last 5 months except one, where I lost to dredge in the semis, so my results have been good. I'm playing in a mox tournament the 29th that's looking like it'll be pretty large, so I'm basically just preparing for that.

I dot play fireblast because it's usually going to be dead whenever the opponent is at more than 4 life. Sacking two mountains is too large a cost to be used for removal in the early or mid game, so I'd rather replace it with chains or something else that can be used to kill opposing creatures.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I split top 4 at a 25 man tourney tonight with my standard Zoo list. I'll write a report tomorrow bc i gotta get to sleep.

Still raping since Xmas08' LOLOLOL:laugh:

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Here is my list. It's not really mine, more generic than anything, but i figured Lavamancer and Library were worth testing more. We lost our 4th Foothills and my Arid Mesas are in my Standard deck which a friend is borrowing.

Maindeck
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Woolly Thoctar

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Chain Lightning
4x PTE
2x Sylvan Library

Sideboard
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Vexing Shusher
3x Choke
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Krosan Grip
3x Price of Progress

It's a basic solid list with all the right 4ofs. No cute spells just the usual. The sideboard wasn't tuned to my personal preference because i was really tired and wanted to beat face. I love STP in the board, but i missed Jitte in the maindeck. Such an amazing card; i can't wait to get mine from Columbus.


Round 1 i was faced against kabal with Canadian Thresh.

Game one he had an answer to everything i played, and we both exhausted our hands, we got into topdeck mode and he has Ponder, BS, etc so he filtered better. I landed Lavamancer with him at 1 and activated to run into a Stifle. I lost that game.
Game two i started out slow keeping a mana heavy hand, which turned out well. We both exhausted each other's resources again and then went into topdeck mode, but i landed Sylvan Library and kept drawing all the burn i needed to race him
Game 3 I just kept drawing more 2/3s and 3/3s than he had Bolts for. He mana denied me for a bit but i topdecked lands like a champ, then Library with open fetches in play. Close games.



Round 2 i faced whienot with his UBwr fairie concoction.

Game one he didn't draw any colored land do to running too man Muta/Wastes, and i just overran him without much effort.
Game two i kept a Goyf Goyf Goyf Mancer Mancer 2 land hand. My first land was stifled. I fetched a basic, then had my other land i drew Wasted. But i drew into more lands and landed 3 Goyfs plus i drew into my other 2 Mancers against fairies. Plus once again he drew crap on the land side and was sitting on double Muta Tundra again.



Round 3 i played the mirror. His build was the cute version with Steppe Lynx and Bloodbraid Elf.

Game one i get molested as he drops triple Nacatl double Ape and i draw 5 lands.
Game two Jitte comes in and i land it and just grind him out. He cascades into KOTR which i path. It's over after that.
Game three happened just like game two. Jitte landed.



I draw into top 8 and play against thor with Merfolk, and we share a cardpool, so he gives me the win for my rating. Sylvan Library is amazing against control and not too hot vs anything else. I saw myself boarding out those and Thoctar alot. Half my meta included Wasteland so Thoctar just had to go for a few games. The deck is solid, but like i said i just miss Jitte in the maindeck. It's so powerful and it lets you come back from losing situations if it sticks.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Gratz on the finish. I saw you run no canopies. Do you not like them? Even in builds with thoctar I usually like to have one or two.

I was going to comment on no md jitte since I know how much you love that card but I see you already spoke about it.

You didn't find 4 mancers to be too many? I usually run 3 and whenever I run 4 I feel like I end up with multiples too often.

I agree with your analysis of library, but I still like it against anything that plays wasteland since it helps me draw out of mana screw. Sometimes I side one out in the mirror, but not always. Do you side them out for the mirror?

How do you generally feel about this deck's thresh matchup? I've lost to it very few times, but I keep seeing people say it's a bad mu for us? I'm just curious to your thoughts since you've probably played the matchup a lot I assume.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Gratz on the finish. I saw you run no canopies. Do you not like them? Even in builds with thoctar I usually like to have one or two.

I was going to comment on no md jitte since I know how much you love that card but I see you already spoke about it.

You didn't find 4 mancers to be too many? I usually run 3 and whenever I run 4 I feel like I end up with multiples too often.

I agree with your analysis of library, but I still like it against anything that plays wasteland since it helps me draw out of mana screw. Sometimes I side one out in the mirror, but not always. Do you side them out for the mirror?

How do you generally feel about this deck's thresh matchup? I've lost to it very few times, but I keep seeing people say it's a bad mu for us? I'm just curious to your thoughts since you've probably played the matchup a lot I assume.

I ran Canopy for about 4 months or so when i picked up the deck, and it was alright at best for me. I often found myself having to choose between drawing a free card or playing a spell, and it messed up my Ape/Nacatl land stipulation too many times. I guess i got unlucky and drew it alot or something, so i cut it in favor of another fetch and kept adding fetches. It's a fine card but hasn't been good to me.

Yeah i think I'm going to add Jitte back in the main since more Eva Green/Suicide Black/Random aggro decks are gaining popularity again. It was MVP in the matches i used it in.

I also like playing 21 lands. Not many Zoo players can say that they've had there turn one land stifled and their second Wasted and recover, but the one extra land has mattered for me alot. Sure some games I'll get a land heavy hand, but it's worth it in the other matchups.

Mancer was good. I don't see why people jerk off to him though. I liked running 4 because he IS going to die in most situations because people have rational and irrational fears about him, so they waste removal, and i keep my other creatures. Plus he is a good card.

I didn't side them out in the mirror because i felt like in the mirror you either win quick or get into topdeck mode, which happened to me games 2 and 3, so it was worth it. Lightning Helix is key here and fetching to shuffle garbage away when you need removal is awesome. I boarded Swords in against the mirror and they are really that good.

I feel like they're mana denial package can fuck you up, and since they have filtering effects to help, that it's worse off then say EvaGreen. Their bolts kills your creatures, BUT most of your creatures trade with Mongoose in combat so that is a positive. They just filter cards better, but their threats are lacking so if you land enough you'll get through.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I also run 21 lands, and I really like that configuration. I agree with you there.

Yeah, I kinda figured that was the case with library. I often find that in the mirror whoever can stick library longest has a huge advantage, and will always sack a pridemage to take one out. Helix becoming an almost cantrip with library in play is also awesome. I usually side the one out when my opponent is playing what looks like an outdated version since I don't need it as much, and depending on how aggressive they play. I don't always want to spend two mana on it if they're beating down the gates with prices, fireblasts, and random stuff like hellspark elemental.

[undone]

How do you generally feel about this deck's thresh matchup? I've lost to it very few times, but I keep seeing people say it's a bad mu for us? I'm just curious to your thoughts since you've probably played the matchup a lot I assume.

You should take your opponents play skill into account, the reason for this is that playing dave G with solidaridy or caplin with tempo thresh are largely differant than playing a random scrub with the deck. However if your still having problems thats not good unless they run a funky configuration.

[quicksilver]

Actually Dave Gearhart is pretty bad with solidarity. Just ask him about abeyance.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

To be fair i was playing against an opponent with TONS of skill with Tempo Thresh, and in the almost 2 years playing with him that's all he's played. So he knows the deck.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Is there any reason people are playing Kird ape over Step Lynx still?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Is there any reason people are playing Kird ape over Step Lynx still?

Steppe Lynx won't always be a 2/3, or a 4/5. Neither will Kird Ape but Ape makes the stipulation easier, and is better vs Merfolk/Goblins.

Also, Steppe forces you to run more fetches and in my opinion make your deck, the whole super fast Fireblast version. Because he is ONLY good at attacking.

[Gibsonmac]

Is there any reason people are playing Kird ape over Step Lynx still?

Many of them, least of which not being the card is terrible in this deck... try goyf sligh if that is what you are looking for

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ha ha ok fair enough. Those reasons are plenty good.

[oneiros76]

Now that there is this trend of maindecking several Firespouts, has anyone thought about a plan to work around them, side or main? Only thing that I've thought of so far is increasing the Thoctar/Knight count by one.

Also my current zoo list:
4x wild nacatl
4x steppe lynx
4x grim lavamancer
4x qasali pridemage
4x tarmogoyf
2x knight of the reliquary
4x lightning bolt
3x chain lightning
4x path to exile
1x jitte
1x price of progress
2x Sylvan Library
2x Fireblast
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
3x Horizon Canopy
SB
2x Pyroblast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Jitte
2x Price of Progress
4x open slots for local meta (orim's chant, jotun grunt/tormod's crypt, choke, swords to plowshares, vexing shusher)

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@oneiros76: I don't see the point in playing around it unless you know that they have it. Then just keep a one drop and try to bait it. Running slower creatures or switching around the deck isn't the answer, the answer is playing smart.

[oneiros76]

@Baileyarch: The point in changing the deck around it is that Firespout is a powerful card/change to combat zoo, the same reason why you would change any deck when responding to a metagame. I wouldn't suggest a drastic change to the creature base or anything, that would obviously make the deck weaker, but something like -1 Fireblast or mancer or other non-bolt burn spell for another knight/thoctar. While keeping a dude in hand is definitely the right play some of the time, Firespout puts us in an awkward position because its still at least a 2 for 1 whenever its worth playing, and while you're slowing yourself down by playing around it they'll be playing War Monks and Counterbalace/Top.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Baileyarch: The point in changing the deck around it is that Firespout is a powerful card/change to combat zoo, the same reason why you would change any deck when responding to a metagame. I wouldn't suggest a drastic change to the creature base or anything, that would obviously make the deck weaker, but something like -1 Fireblast or mancer or other non-bolt burn spell for another knight/thoctar. While keeping a dude in hand is definitely the right play some of the time, Firespout puts us in an awkward position because its still at least a 2 for 1 whenever its worth playing, and while you're slowing yourself down by playing around it they'll be playing War Monks and Counterbalace/Top.

To me Firespout is just hate. You gotta play through the hate. Adding another 3 drop isn't the right answer if any. People don't understand that this deck doesn't hit 3 land a quarter of it's games, and nonbasic hate is good against us as well, so it makes hitting 3 land even weaker.

And some games that just happens. You just lose when the opposing deck does what it's supposed to do.

[Gibsonmac]

To me Firespout is just hate. You gotta play through the hate. Adding another 3 drop isn't the right answer if any. People don't understand that this deck doesn't hit 3 land a quarter of it's games, and nonbasic hate is good against us as well, so it makes hitting 3 land even weaker.

And some games that just happens. You just lose when the opposing deck does what it's supposed to do.

So true... the answer is consistency, efficiency, speed and power... more three drops kills kittens somewhere out there...

[Pastorofmuppets]

Has anyone ever tried Terravore in a heavily Zoo/Thresh/Dredge/Loam meta? It seems like it could punch in for some real damage. And it tramples, which helps with those wimpy little Landstill soldiers.

[umbowta]

So true... the answer is consistency, efficiency, speed and power... more three drops kills kittens somewhere out there...

Did you say kills kittens (http://www.richsalter.btinternet.co.uk/cks1/index.html)?

[oneiros76]

@Lox: I think people understand how the mana works out in this deck just fine, assuming they've played the deck a couple times. The deck can be counted on to hit 3 land in its games. I guess I don't see that an additional 3 cost spell of 2 different colors is too much of a liability, considering that it helps against metagame hate like Firespout, is harder to hit with counterbalance, engineered explosives, and red elemental blasts, and adds another fat creature to help win mirrors. And I agree that Firespout is hate, but while its in the right deck it is powerful hate that can't always just be played through.

@Gib: And if the metagame adjusts to take away those things, shouldn't we adjust too?

So my suggestion so far is +1 Knight, -1 Fireblast. I probably would have gone with Lavamancer, but I wanted to keep 4 in my main since my matchup against Goblins and Merfolk is slightly worse with Steppe Lynx replacing Kird Ape. I'm still testing Lynx btw, so far he's been really good for me, while he can sit around for a bit just being a dork, when he turns into another Tarmogoyf when hitting a fetch he's reeeally good, early or late game. Ha and drawing fetch, fetching a land then sacking the land to Knight, searching for fetch then fetching he's a 8/9! Living the dream indeed.

@Pastor: ha that seems awesome! He's always been one of my favorite creatures, he's a ton of fun to smash people with. I think his problem is that he's not 100% reliably huge and doesn't do any tricks, which is what you would want for that cost. I'd play him casually though for sure, if anything to bring me back to my terrageddon days and being able to yell TERRAVORE SMASH as you windmill him into play.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@oneiros76: If people knew how the mana in the deck worked, then more 3 drops wouldn't be suggested. Also Fireblast is terrible, and i would cut every copy that you play. I would rather run PoP than Fireblast. It's too much of a liability nowadays.

And the only deck i know that runs maindeck sweepers are Landstill and Supreme Blue. Landstill runs Explosives and WOG, but WOG is kinda slow in my opinion, and you can just goldfish them anyway. Explosives have caught me with my pants down more than a few games, so hope for the best. I've played my variant of Surpeme Blue to top 8 roughly 6 or 7 times in the past 2 months, and just as you can cast it, it's like WOG and you could just kill your opponent. Most players won't Firespout immediately unless you just overextend into it. And i guess i don't overextend much.

Most are in the sideboard, and if you know they're bringing it in then just take stuff Firespout will hose out.

[Gibsonmac]

@oneiros76: If people knew how the mana in the deck worked, then more 3 drops wouldn't be suggested. Also Fireblast is terrible, and i would cut every copy that you play. I would rather run PoP than Fireblast. It's too much of a liability nowadays.



Tell that to Hatfield...

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Tell that to Hatfield...

I don't see what difference that makes. I'd announce it over a microphone to the entire world if i could.

[Jiaozy]

I don't see what difference that makes. I'd announce it over a microphone to the entire world if i could.As much as it counts, I have to agree.

I have been playing Zoo for a lot and Fireblast has always been cute at best and never relevant when I drew it.

Moreso if you're playing heaploads of non-mountain lands like Fetches, Canopy, Savannah and the basics.
Hatfield list played a grand total of 6 Mountains and most of the time playing a Fireblast for its alt cost means giving up all of your red mana.

I know it's often meant to end games but drawing 2 early on is worse than drawing pretty much each and every other playable burn spell in the format.

[Forbiddian]

To me Firespout is just hate. You gotta play through the hate.

That philosophy is really stupid. You think Ichorid runs Chain of Vapor to deal with Wild Nacatls? Zoo is just like any other deck. It's ideally tuned to beat a specific metagame. If the metagame shifts at all, you should be taking notes and likely making adjustments, at least in the sideboard.

Firespout simply wasn't played before, so the Landstill matchup was taken strictly as a bye and the strategy was simply to goldfish. Now Zoo has to worry about Landstill, so that probably means a few changes have to be made.

Slowing the deck down plays into their hands (and likely weakens other matchups), so I agree with you in that sense, but simply ignoring the existence of Firespout, and especially saying "it's only hate" is stupid.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

That philosophy is really stupid. You think Ichorid runs Chain of Vapor to deal with Wild Nacatls? Zoo is just like any other deck. It's ideally tuned to beat a specific metagame. If the metagame shifts at all, you should be taking notes and likely making adjustments, at least in the sideboard.

Firespout simply wasn't played before, so the Landstill matchup was taken strictly as a bye and the strategy was simply to goldfish. Now Zoo has to worry about Landstill, so that probably means a few changes have to be made.

Slowing the deck down plays into their hands (and likely weakens other matchups), so I agree with you in that sense, but simply ignoring the existence of Firespout, and especially saying "it's only hate" is stupid.

Well what does the great Zoo guru Forbiddian suggest to oneiros76 since my logic is just stupid?

Besides I've given other ways to combat Firespout by holding back when you don't need the extra creatures in play, boarding stuff out etc. What other card could you put in Zoo's maindeck or sideboard to combat Firespout? What card would be good enough to make it?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Cursed Scroll!

That or just board in the IGG loop and take it down :)

[Pastorofmuppets]

Cursed Scroll!


Boom! Cursed Scroll wins AGAIN!
Well, if you want to run Black you could play Bloodghast. That first 10 life is always easy anyway :tongue:

[TotallySweet]

3 damage to our dudes will kill all but goyf and whatever 2-of biggie is in the list you play. Sweepers are in a category of hate that traditionally just doesn't seem worth boarding strictly against to me. The options are: be slower and use more dudes with 4 toughness (no), board against it (Ramosian Rally lol), or play through it (yep).

And forbiddian I don't think he necessarily meant to just ignore it as a philosophy on how he builds decks, just quickly assessed the above.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Cursed Scroll!

That or just board in the IGG loop and take it down :)

But seriously. Cursed Scroll is an answer to Firespout. Non removable damage? Check.

Transformational Sideboard into LEDx4, InfernalTutorx4, Badlandx2, Tendrils of Corruptionx1, IGGx2, Dark Ritualx2. That is probably all wrong because i suck at combo, but you get the idea.

Yeah i know he didn't mean it like that. But like me, he comes off like a dick in every post, so it's all good :laugh:

[Micki]

Jitte is quite nice for protection... Some people play Vines of Vastwood already, maybe that would be a good sb choice?

[Gibsonmac]

Jitte is quite nice for protection... Some people play Vines of Vastwood already, maybe that would be a good sb choice?

cute factor at best... but if you play against removal.dec constantly it might warrant SB space, I'd never see the need for it presently in my meta....

However, if you are one of the more prominent players in your area, and people hate against your personal deck, sometimes those 'cute' cards really win games in a big way... if you know what you're up against

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

cute factor at best... but if you play against removal.dec constantly it might warrant SB space, I'd never see the need for it presently in my meta....

However, if you are one of the more prominent players in your area, and people hate against your personal deck, sometimes those 'cute' cards really win games in a big way... if you know what you're up against

Have i started some "cute" revolution or something? :confused:

[Gibsonmac]

Have i started some "cute" revolution or something? :confused:

Vines of vastewood... if you proposed it, then perhaps... I'm not saying its good or bad, just is has the 'cute' factor going for it, in that it would be unexpected and pwn people as they play into it... It is something that I might run a a random tournament solely because of this... otherwise, on a regular basis I'd tend to stay away from such cards

[lorddotm]

But seriously. Cursed Scroll is an answer to Firespout. Non removable damage? Check.

Transformational Sideboard into LEDx4, InfernalTutorx4, Badlandx2, Tendrils of Corruptionx1, IGGx2, Dark Ritualx2. That is probably all wrong because i suck at combo, but you get the idea.

Yeah i know he didn't mean it like that. But like me, he comes off like a dick in every post, so it's all good :laugh:

Play the Badlands main.

4 LED
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony (not Corruption)
2 IGG
4 Dark Ritual

Golly, that seems just terrible enough to work. NAWT!

Mark of Asylum.

[P.S.]

Here's an idea: What about Reverent Mantra?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/Drag0nthrax/reverent_mantra.jpg

Granted the deck does not play a ton of white cards but you should still be able to pitch something for the alternate casting cost to save your crew from a board sweeper like Firespout. Depending on build, you could have Qasali Pridemage, Wooly Thoctar, Path to Exile, Figure of Destiny, Knight of the Reliquary, or Lightning Helix.

Certainly seems a couple Sideboard copies of Mantra would be better than a schwag fifteen-card "switch" into bad combo.

[jandax]

What situation(s) would it be for?

[MMogg]

Here's an idea: What about Reverent Mantra?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/Drag0nthrax/reverent_mantra.jpg

Granted the deck does not play a ton of white cards but you should still be able to pitch something for the alternate casting cost to save your crew from a board sweeper like Firespout. Depending on build, you could have Qasali Pridemage, Wooly Thoctar, Path to Exile, Figure of Destiny, Knight of the Reliquary, or Lightning Helix.

Certainly seems a couple Sideboard copies of Mantra would be better than a schwag fifteen-card "switch" into bad combo.

There's also Cho-Manno's Blessing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19551) if one were inclined to go down the protection path. Both Reverent Mantra and Cho-Manno's Blessing could also be used in the mirror or to force through damage. Either of these cards seems better than Vines of the Vastwood.

@ Jandax, the situation is Firespout.

[P.S.]

What situation(s) would it be for?

So not only do you not read the thread but you can't even be hassled to read the last page of it? Really? Maybe it was my fault for not using the quote feature. So, for that, I apologize.

Mantra seems good. In execution, we will see. It was certainly MVP in the old Rebel decks of Standard yesteryear.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

You could just run that new Standard card instead. It's one white mana to give your team protection from a color. You don't pitch another valuable card for it so that's a plus.

[Carabas]

The only problem with Brave the Elements is that it only works for white creatures. Would Harm's Way work here? Most of the guys we're going to be saving have 3 toughness, so we could save two of them (or one pridemage) and deal 2 to them while we're at it.

[jandax]

So not only do you not read the thread but you can't even be hassled to read the last page of it? Really? Maybe it was my fault for not using the quote feature. So, for that, I apologize.

Mantra seems good. In execution, we will see. It was certainly MVP in the old Rebel decks of Standard yesteryear.

hi, not only have I read this entire thread more times than you have, but that question was meant to illicit a philosophy as to why this card is better than what is already being run, what unique problems it solves, or why one would want to ditch a Helix/Throctar/etc in order to give temporary pro:from.

I'll pause while you take your head out of your ass.

[P.S.]

You're a liar. The last page was obviously talking about Firespout. Not only that, but Cursed Scroll had already been suggested and this was a continuation of that conversation (which you obviously didn't read).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The only problem with Brave the Elements is that it only works for white creatures. Would Harm's Way work here? Most of the guys we're going to be saving have 3 toughness, so we could save two of them (or one pridemage) and deal 2 to them while we're at it.

Forgot about that, "white creatures" clause.

@everyone else: I'm going to be competing in the Legacy side event of ProTour Atlanta this weekend, and I literally have no idea what the meta is going to look like. Idk if i wanna run PoP maindeck, or move Jitte back in, even though that seems like a good idea.

Suggestions? Without being an asshole that is.

[P.S.]

I'm going to be competing in the Legacy side event of ProTour Atlanta this weekend. Suggestions? Without being an asshole that is.

Zoo is really good right now, honestly. You'll roll Goblins and Merfolk. I don't think you need Jitte. The Counter/Balance numbers are down. Dredge has been hated out (and isn't even in DTB anymore). You need to worry about ANT and Landstill, IMO. Need something big for the Mirror too. Not positive about the Thresh match-up anymore honestly. I do think Zoo is the deck to take right now though. That or Landstill.

Price of Progress I am not a big fan of, personally.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Zoo is really good right now, honestly. You'll roll Goblins and Merfolk. I don't think you need Jitte. The Counter/Balance numbers are down. Dredge has been hated out (and isn't even in DTB anymore). You need to worry about ANT and Landstill, IMO. Need something big for the Mirror too. Not positive about the Thresh match-up anymore honestly. I do think Zoo is the deck to take right now though. That or Landstill.

Price of Progress I am not a big fan of, personally.

I've always knew this deck was good, even before Nacatl and Pridemage. I ran it when it was in the New and Developmental forums ya know?

I'm just scared of RWM to be honest, that and Vedalken Shackles. I've lost the majority of games I've lost because of Shackles. I've never had to play against RWM before, but it looks miserable to get rid of, or a 2for1. The Thresh matchup isn't that hard because your Kird Ape or Nacatl trump their Mongoose until they at least get within 10 life.

Swords are just amazing in the mirror. I'm not really liking Sylvan Library though, so I'll prolly cut it and run a more traditional Bailey list with a tweaked SB.

[P.S.]

You play Swords over Path or a mix?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

You play Swords over Path or a mix?

4 Path main 2-3 in the SB. I don't worry about giving Merfolk or Goblins a land drop when i could just be removing Goyf or Stalker without the life stipulation.

[Nelis]

hi, not only have I read this entire thread more times than you have, but that question was meant to illicit a philosophy as to why this card is better than what is already being run, what unique problems it solves, or why one would want to ditch a Helix/Throctar/etc in order to give temporary pro:from.


Aggro Loam would be another good reason.

But I don't think it's worth the SB space. I would be more worried about the ANT match-up. It's winnable if you burn them quickly and run Teeg side. It's even better if u also combine that with POP. Those like me who don't run POP main need 7-8 SB cards for this match-up. So there's probably no SB space for Mantra. We can play around Firespout anyway. I'm not too bothered about Firespout.

I played the open Dutch Legacy Championship last sunday and became 13th out of 138. I was very happy about that. Anyway, I played 3 PTE and 1 STP main and 1 PTE and 1 STP side and switched according to the matchup.

I actually loved Sylvan Library and don't want to do without. I also ran 1 Jitte main which I also loved. I came in very handy at the right times. I also did not run Thoctar but Figure of Destiny and wouldn't change that either. It happenend often enough that I didn't have 3 lands for Thoctar. At least with figure you can play it with 1 mana available and if there's more its also good times. I wouldn't play more than 2 though.

[umbowta]

I'm just scared of RWM to be honest, Yeah. Random Weiner Munching is out of control lately...what the hell is RWM, Bailey?

Red Wings Mania
Ripe Women Masticating
Really Woeful Matchup?
Ripped White Men???
Running While Masturbating?...lol
Rogue Wailing Mandragoras?
Rhox War Monk

[kabal]

Yeah. Random Weiner Munching is out of control lately...what the hell is RWM, Bailey?

Red Wings Mania
Ripe Women Masticating
Really Woeful Matchup?
Ripped White Men???
Running While Masturbating?...lol
Rogue Wailing Mandragoras?

how about Rhox War Monk

[umbowta]

how about Rhox War Monk

Thanx, kabal. I'll add it to the list.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I like putting pop in the sb, lox. It's still very good in enough matchups that I want it somewhere in my 75, though not running it main does eat into your sb space. You gotta foure out where you want it, but I don't like leaving home without it.

More thoughts to come.

[whienot]

Wouldn't Burrenton Forge-Tender be better than any of the other options? I guess they can remove it first, but at least it's aggressive.

Not that it's needed. I imagine playing smart is the best way to combat Firespout. Don't over-extend, etc.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Wouldn't Burrenton Forge-Tender be better than any of the other options? I guess they can removeit first, but at least it's aggressive.

Not that it's needed. I imagine playing smart is the best way to combat Firespout. Don't over-extend, etc.

+1 with the Forge Tender suggestion. Nassif ran that in his board at Chicago. Not for the same purpose but it's strong enough.

Unfortunately I'll have to put some Sideboard cards in for combo this weekend even though i hate to do it. I was thinking like

2x Swords to Plowshare
3x Price of Progress
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Cannonist
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Krosan Grip

The sideboard combo hate might change. I don't know what's the best. I could try that new Trap and fetch a Savannah to fake the combo player out so they don't think I'll burn them. Not lay lands and sit on a 1/1 Nacatl or something and then Trap the hell out of them.

[hungryLIKEALION]

+1 with the Forge Tender suggestion. Nassif ran that in his board at Chicago. Not for the same purpose but it's strong enough.

Unfortunately I'll have to put some Sideboard cards in for combo this weekend even though i hate to do it. I was thinking like

2x Swords to Plowshare
3x Price of Progress
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Cannonist
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Krosan Grip

The sideboard combo hate might change. I don't know what's the best. I could try that new Trap and fetch a Savannah to fake the combo player out so they don't think I'll burn them. Not lay lands and sit on a 1/1 Nacatl or something and then Trap the hell out of them.

Wait, so your plan is to be non-aggressive so they fall into mindbreak trap without silencing first?

I'm pretty sure they side out their silences for g2 against us, but they'd probably bring them back in for g3. I like Canonist for Storm hate, but I wouldn't just play 4 hate slots if you're gonna hate at all. I think it takes at least 6 to be worth it. 3x teeg 3x canonist is a good package I find.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Wait, so your plan is to be non-aggressive so they fall into mindbreak trap without silencing first?

I'm pretty sure they side out their silences for g2 against us, but they'd probably bring them back in for g3. I like Canonist for Storm hate, but I wouldn't just play 4 hate slots if you're gonna hate at all. I think it takes at least 6 to be worth it. 3x teeg 3x canonist is a good package I find.

I was just suggesting things.

My friend went to the big PTQ in Tampa and saw no combo, so maybe it's not worth it anyway. I've tried to play an entire hate sideboard, and combo is just too good nowadays. Turn 2 answers are too slow, and even the traps can be Duress.

[hungryLIKEALION]

yeah that's fair.

Anyway, I'm finally ready to write a short tournament report for my tournament on Sunday...

I played Zoo in a 35 man tournament with the following list;

4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
2 Ape
3 Figure
3 Lavamancer
2 KoTR
4 Bolt
4 Helix
2 Chain
4 Path
2 Library
1 Jitte
2 Mire
3 Foothills
4 Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Basics

SB:
3 PoP
3 Grip
1 Jitte
2 STP
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Gaddock Teeg

Round one I played a scrub with a UG deck and smashed his face in in about 5 turns both games.
1-0

Round two I played against Hypergenesis. He wins game 1 with a t3 violent outburst after I declare attacks and drops like 4 guys. I draw game 2 with a topdecked PoP for lethal after racing his Inkwell Leviathan for two turns. Games 3 and 4 I have super fast hands and burn him out after he hypers.
2-0

Round three I played against Storm. Game one he mulls to six and keeps a hand with land and accel and a silence and he doesn't draw any digging spells so I kill him on turn 4. Game two he mulls to five and I play t2 Teeg. Bad beats I guess.
3-0

Round 4 I draw with a guy playing Affinity. We play for fun and I beat him twice in a row, though game 1 I was on 1 life for a perilously long time.

3-0-1

Top eight cut, I play against the guy with Hypergenesis again. I steal game 1 with post-hyper burn, but games two and three he has very fast hypers with multiple of that 5/8 shroud angel that takes damage for you both times and I am forced to scoop it up.

3-1-1

Got one booster pack of Zendikar for my trouble, in which I opened a Lotus Cobra, so at least I got something out of it.

I was struck by how much combo I played against being pretty odd, but I guess it means I'm gonna have to adapt my list again. I may stop carrying a three drop all together and look for ways to speed up my clock more consistently. I'm not really sure what direction I want to go right now, but I'll post any breakthroughs here.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@hungryLIKEALION: Your meta doesn't seem very competitive at all. No offense. Maybe it was just a bad day, but every tourney report you write always has like scrub decks. Haha.

In other news, I just uninstalled MagicWorkstation because I'm tired of the shuffling device. I played against Phoenix Ignition and drew into like 6 land, Chain Lightning hands, or the ever so awesome mull to 5 with 1 land while playing 21 lands. Fuck MWS. Seriously.

[oneiros76]

I'm really liking this list that turned up from the Philly 5k~
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29955

It has the third 3 drop against Firespout and the mirror, as well as the Vines for the same two matchups. It sacrifices a bit of burn reach (fireblast and pop) for those previous pluses, but vines seems like such a blowout in response to any kind of removal, like an additional 4 damage plus whatever damage you get in on subsequent attacks that would normally be negated by the obligatory swords-ing.

@Baileyarch- i'm not sure what the local(ish) meta is around there, but if I were going into a blind meta right now I'd guess at a couple good pilots pick supreme blue but the deck not being a really popular pickup, dredge has gotten pretty popular as a random pickup deck and has been posting more results lately, I'm not sure if ANT has gotten more or less popular but I think Belcher has picked up a bit since Cedric played it. Bunch of zoo and merfolk for sure. I think more confident players will not shy away from countertop also, definitely don't count it out.
As for sideboarding against combo, I agree with HungryLIKEALION, and I always kinda felt that if they're doing what they need to do to win/tutor up a bounce spell for the win next turn, the one canonist/teeg that i'll likely land with aggressive sideboarding will still not matter to much, so i eventually settled on a package of 3x gaddock teeg and 2x pyroblast as a baseline. with both of those they're good against other random stuff (pyroblast is a swords for RWM/coins the rhino/loxodon pizza flipper/pancake rhino!, teeg good against landstill and trinistax) and can still buy you the turn or two that it can take to finish them up.
For Reverent Mantra, I think It'd only be ok when you hit with it, like you would get in an additional swing with 2 dudes usually, and you're swapping the Mantra and a white card for usually 2 sometimes 3 of your smaller guys, but the white cards in the deck are all really valuable, and it'd still be a 2 for 1 for on cards them, and you would have to have the mantra and a white card specifically when they cast their one firespout.

[hungryLIKEALION]

@hungryLIKEALION: Your meta doesn't seem very competitive at all. No offense. Maybe it was just a bad day, but every tourney report you write always has like scrub decks. Haha.

The thing is that the tournaments are free, so in the first round there are sometimes a few bad decks floating around. But as you can see, past the first round I played against all established decks. This particular tournament was 35 people, and I'd say about 8 of those were scrubs, but the rest were all good players with good decks. Don't try to discredit my meta because I sometimes face a scrub round one.

If you pay attention to my reports you'll note that the scrubs are never winning the tournaments.

The 29th though I'm playing in a mox tournament, and if the store's last power tournament was any indication, that'll be very competitive.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

The thing is that the tournaments are free, so in the first round there are sometimes a few bad decks floating around. But as you can see, past the first round I played against all established decks. This particular tournament was 35 people, and I'd say about 8 of those were scrubs, but the rest were all good players with good decks. Don't try to discredit my meta because I sometimes face a scrub round one.

If you pay attention to my reports you'll note that the scrubs are never winning the tournaments.

The 29th though I'm playing in a mox tournament, and if the store's last power tournament was any indication, that'll be very competitive.
Like i said, i meant no offense. You just usually get good pairings and stuff ya know, and always at least one scrub deck. Nothing against your skill.

[hungryLIKEALION]

You're right, Storm and Cascade Hypergenesis are both great matchups for us, auto wins practically ???

And facing a scrub round one does not make the tournament non-competitive. That happens to people all the way up through grand prixs; I've read plenty of GP reports that start with a scrub opponent in round one. And to say I always get at least one scrub is a lie, because I don't. But even if I did, it wouldn't be relevant, as naturally the longer the tournament goes the more competitive the rounds become.

[yadda]

I was at the same Tourney and one thing i'd like to point out about our meta is that there were 3 dredge decks, at least 1 goblins, an ANT combo deck, and several thresh variants.

i personally played against counter slivers, Ug CBthresh, Goblins, and some bad fling combo deck.

so again one scrub and 3 established decks.

my point here is that there are a few "byes" floating around but for the most part it is a competitive meta that fits the bell curve, its just that in a 35 man tourney vs a 100 man there are going to be fewer decks in the middle of it due to the small sample size.

[Thor]

@Bailey- I still wouldn't run combo hate unless it improve the match up to at least better than 50-50. That being said I've seen a lot of belcher placing lately Pithing Needle might be a good call hits Belch, and Shackles, and ahost of random things that you don't want to see.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Bailey- I still wouldn't run combo hate unless it improve the match up to at least better than 50-50. That being said I've seen a lot of belcher placing lately Pithing Needle might be a good call hits Belch, and Shackles, and ahost of random things that you don't want to see.

I kinda miss having 4x Pithing Needle in the board. Like ALOT. It got rid of what i hate, but i always felt like, they could remove it or something, then play whatever i had Needled. Just an irrational fear i guess.

I could see myself fixing around my SB some.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I played zoo long before I knew about the Source, and seeing the deck go from tier 2/3 to DTB is both gratifying and kinda sad since people are gunning for it now. Makes it a little difficult to play it sometimes.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I played zoo long before I knew about the Source, and seeing the deck go from tier 2/3 to DTB is both gratifying and kinda sad since people are gunning for it now. Makes it a little difficult to play it sometimes.

Yeah like the original New and Developmental thread for this was like pre-Tarmogoyf and had Wild Mongrel in it. It's insane to see spread like wildfire.

Most builds though are weird as hell though like the GP Chicago one that ran Wasteland and Fireblast. I don't see how anything like that can be successful. I can't remember if Chicago was pre-Nacatl, i don't think it was though. I know it was pre-Pridemage though.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Post Nacatl, Pre Pridemage.

I know one of the players in the legacy portion of worlds is packing Zoo, and I think he's doing pretty well. He's on the Japanese team, IIRC.

[sauce]

has anyone played vs dark depths yet? we have 2 dark depths decks in our meta, both different, one mono black and the other blue, green, black...
curious to see what people say
edit: and how it faired... im assuming pte is the only out besides speed

Capitalization and punctuation are required on this site. Use them. -zilla

[Gibsonmac]

you rape them... that's about the short and skinny of it...

[TotallySweet]

has anyone played vs dark depths yet? we have 2 dark depths decks in our meta, both different, one mono black and the other blue, green, black...
curious to see what people say
edit: and how it faired... im assuming pte is the only out besides speed

I played against one at the Grand Prix side event round 3. I went 2-0. He never event got the combo to work and I just goldfished him besides a thoughtsieze/hymn here and there and a damnation 2nd game. =\ Maybe splashing red to try and give Marit Lage haste wasn't the greatest idea ever...

[sauce]

obv zoo can beat it but in extended they were ready w/ the ghost quarters, but in legacy the good DD deck actually runs main deck wastelands so u cant just sit on a wasteland...
i guess you bring in pithing needles for the hexmage and GG them if they don't have the FoW or a way to k-grip it in time.

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[Gibsonmac]

obv zoo can beat it but in extended they were ready w/ the ghost quarters, but in legacy the good DD deck actually runs main deck wastelands so u cant just sit on a wasteland...
i guess you bring in pithing needles for the hexmage and GG them if they don't have the FoW or a way to k-grip it in time.

it is an entirely different format, what happens in extended is irrelevant in every way.

[sauce]

it is an entirely different format, what happens in extended is irrelevant in every way.

so how does zoo crush a t2 20/20 besides a well placed PtE?

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

so how does zoo crush a t2 20/20 besides a well placed PtE?

How does any deck deal with that? The only hope you got is to race it, pure and simple. Try and burn and attack.

[uprite]

So I tried to filter through the thread and could not really find anything about it. What is zoo's game against tempo thres?

I played against two this weekend and just got smashed even after i sideboarded in 2 chokes and 3 POPs. Their hands were just great, able to daze and spell snare everything that was relevant. I find the wastelands to hurt alot (I shouldn't have kept ballsy hands), but i didn't know it was tempo thresh at the moment? What is the best strategy against them?

This is my decklist for reference.

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
2x Arid Mesa ( I need to get one more so i can diversify my lands)
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Mountain

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x wooly thoctor
3x Grim Lavamancer

2x pithing needle
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x fireblast
4x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

My meta game changes every week since the players all like to switch up decks every week so i have to adjust sideboad before i play

2x Swords to Plowshares
1x pithing needle
1x red elemental blast
1x pyroblast
2x Krosan Grip
3x Price of Pogress
2x Choke
2x relic of progentious (for tempo thres just changed my other crypt to this)
1x open slot (flex spot)

I know its weird to have pithing needle main, but there is always goblins and merfolks around and i just love being able to pithing needle after they play aether vial. I wanted to put in another lavamancer and was thinking of cutting one fireblast (I tested helix and i just like the explosiveness of fireblast alot more).

Feedback would be appreciated

[sauce]

How does any deck deal with that? The only hope you got is to race it, pure and simple. Try and burn and attack.

well some decks have daze/force/spell snare/stifle/wasteland/stp etc... gibsonmac said you crush the deck, so im here to confirm., thanks

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[FoulQ]

@ uprite: I remember people talking about this earlier, and basically the consensus was that you can play the control role, since you really are the one with inevitability in the matchup. They have to kill you before you establish creature domination. So you don't need to balls rush them most of the time.

[uprite]

Yeah i tried that in the 2nd game, since my balls rush with 1 fetch and 1 taiga was before i realized it was tempo thresh. Got my fetch stifled and taiga wasted. So I gota just try and hold out the game, is putting chokes and POPs into the game the proper choice for sb?

[hungryLIKEALION]

There is no reason to play into stifle against TT... Their clock is incredibly slow, so you can wait for them to tap down before cracking your fetch lands. Just fetch for basics and pretty much their entire gameplan goes down the drain since they can't do anything against a basic in play.

[humppa]

How often do you draw an extra card(s) with Sylvan Library? Could be Mirri's guilde better?

I never drew 2 extra cards, few times i drew one card, but only once or twice it was really useful. But very often I should be pleasured with the much much better Mirri's guile's casting cost... you can play it on your second turn without any fear from Daze OR you can cast it on second turn with second Wild Nacatl etc...

Did anybody test it?

[Nelis]

I have drawn 2 extra cards (granted not often) but even if you draw 1 card it's worth it I think.

I actually like the 2 CC casting cost because of Chalice of the Void for instance. At least when chalice is down you can play Library and find answers quicker.

But the whole idea is to play Library later on (in midgame), not on your second turn. I'm always too busy playing a burnspell or Tarmo or Pridemage on my second turn anyway.

[Gibsonmac]

How often do you draw an extra card(s) with Sylvan Library? Could be Mirri's guilde better?

I never drew 2 extra cards, few times i drew one card, but only once or twice it was really useful. But very often I should be pleasured with the much much better Mirri's guile's casting cost... you can play it on your second turn without any fear from Daze OR you can cast it on second turn with second Wild Nacatl etc...

Did anybody test it?

you use it for the dig ability, like and auto-top... I rarely 'draw' off of it (although I sometimes do) so if you are looking to mix it up, try top.

[humppa]

you use it for the dig ability, like and auto-top... I rarely 'draw' off of it (although I sometimes do) so if you are looking to mix it up, try top.

I think this is wrong. Mirri's guilde is almost the same card as Sylvan Library, the differences are only:
1) Mirri's guilde cc=1, Sylvan Library cc=2
2) With Sylvan Library you can draw more than one card

So what make sence is just the point with CotV.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm surprised to hear you guys don't draw with library. I draw with library all the time. I'll draw myself down to about ten life without worrying too much. Then again, I play 4 helix and that's one o te cards that makes it easy o draw with library.

If you're not draawing with library, it not bad to use guile instead, but I don't see why you wouldn't draw with library.

[Soldar]

I'm surprised to hear you guys don't draw with library. I draw with library all the time. I'll draw myself down to about ten life without worrying too much. Then again, I play 4 helix and that's one o te cards that makes it easy o draw with library.

If you're not draawing with library, it not bad to use guile instead, but I don't see why you wouldn't draw with library.

I echo this, even though I'm playing 2 Helix. Card filtering is nice, but paying 8 life wins a lot of games, even just to dig to find that last card you need.

[DCTopTeam]

Went 1-5 with Zoo. 1-5!!! I realized my build was a little iffy and had a lot of bad matchups.

G1: UR Painters (2-0 win)

G2: Mono Black (0-2) - Wasteland and early hand disruption during the early parts of the game. He had Black Knight I had Thoctar and Pridemage in play. Mid game he had Volrath's Stronghold + Gatekeeper of Malakir combo. Second game he Extirpates the Paths and the Bolts and I die.

G3: FCG Gob (0-2) - He combos at T2 with ESG + two mana to cast Food Chain. He swings for 17 at that turn. I die the next turn. Second game he Chalices for 1 during his turn. Before that I mulled to 5 hoping for a Grip or a Qasali but found none. I lose again

G4 BR Gobs: My brothers BR Gobs. He Smothers and Bolts and Gempalms everything he sees and I lose. G2 he boarded 3 Perish. I lose again

G5 Stax: T1 Ghostly I was stalled big time after that he puts in 2 M of the Tabernacle I scoop. Second game T1 Trinisphere. Enough said


Horrible.

[DCTopTeam]

Went 1-5 with Zoo. 1-5!!! I realized my build was a little iffy and had a lot of bad matchups.

G1: UR Painters (2-0 win)

G2: Mono Black (0-2) - Wasteland and early hand disruption during the early parts of the game. He had Black Knight I had Thoctar and Pridemage in play. Mid game he had Volrath's Stronghold + Gatekeeper of Malakir combo. Second game he Extirpates the Paths and the Bolts and I die.

G3: FCG Gob (0-2) - He combos at T2 with ESG + two mana to cast Food Chain. He swings for 17 at that turn. I die the next turn. Second game he Chalices for 1 during his turn. Before that I mulled to 5 hoping for a Grip or a Qasali but found none. I lose again

G4 BR Gobs: My brothers BR Gobs. He Smothers and Bolts and Gempalms everything he sees and I lose. G2 he boarded 3 Perish. I lose again

G5 Stax: T1 Ghostly I was stalled big time after that he puts in 2 M of the Tabernacle I scoop. Second game T1 Trinisphere. Enough said


Horrible.

The other match btw was mono red. I also lost that one, he finished me off with double Fireblast during the two games. :eek:

[DCTopTeam]

you rape them... that's about the short and skinny of it...

I dont think so. Played with the Mono Black version. Pox is very very bad for us. They also have hand disruption. The one I played with also had G of Malakir.

[Gibsonmac]

I dont think so. Played with the Mono Black version. Pox is very very bad for us. They also have hand disruption. The one I played with also had G of Malakir.

well judging from your 1-5 finish, I do not believe you know what you are talking about...

[DCTopTeam]

well judging from your 1-5 finish, I do not believe you know what you are talking about...

Why really? Have you ever been matched up with that DDepths deck? If not then STFU because I have something tangible to back-up what im talking about.

[Nelis]

I'm surprised to hear you guys don't draw with library. I draw with library all the time. I'll draw myself down to about ten life without worrying too much. Then again, I play 4 helix and that's one o te cards that makes it easy o draw with library.

If you're not draawing with library, it not bad to use guile instead, but I don't see why you wouldn't draw with library.

It's the same here, the instances that I didn't draw cards was when I was below 10 life and was afraid it might turn out wrong. And even then here are instances that you might want to draw an extra card when on low life if it means you win. I play 3 Lightning Helix BTW because it's sometimes hard to have the right mana available.


well judging from your 1-5 finish, I do not believe you know what you are talking about...

It weren't the most favourable match-ups though. But then again the reasons stated why he lost do not seem that sound.



I think this is wrong. Mirri's guilde is almost the same card as Sylvan Library, the differences are only:
1) Mirri's guilde cc=1, Sylvan Library cc=2
2) With Sylvan Library you can draw more than one card

So what make sence is just the point with CotV.

Why? Point 2 makes just as much sense. You can't mean that the possiblility of drawing extra cards is not better than only rearranging the top 3 cards?