[Deck] Zoo

[humppa]

Why? Point 2 makes just as much sense. You can't mean that the possiblility of drawing extra cards is not better than only rearranging the top 3 cards?
It is a much better :-)

But i don't draw extra cards very often. Very often I see lands or PTEs... maybe just a shame or not too much experiences. I'll continue playing with Library. Thanks for your remarks!

[Nelis]

If you see those cards its actually a reason to draw those extra cards because so you dig deeper next turn and you (hopefully) find the cards you do need then.

[Gibsonmac]

Why really? Have you ever been matched up with that DDepths deck? If not then STFU because I have something tangible to back-up what im talking about.

Yes, I indeed have... auto-win pretty much, (although they can pull off the 'oops, I win' factor sometimes like dreadstill can, but that happens maybe once and you kill them the other 2 games)

I have extensive tourney experience (obv. testing experience) with and against every deck in the format (I have every legacy deck together and play them all regularly). So my tangible 'back-up' is my DCI rating... and the fact that I haven't 1-5 a tourney since I was 14

[michaelq]

Unless you're opponent's playing burn or has a sizable beat on the board, I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to draw as many cards as possible as quickly as possible. I'll draw down to 4 or 5 life if necessary. The only reason I can think of to wait is if you've got fetches in play.

Library is so strong I'm thinking about throwing in a third one.

[JadeOberg]

I've been running a second Jitte main, and I do say, so often a resolved Jitte wins the game. Anyone else try this as of late?

Also, I've recently made the switch from Thoctar to Reliquary. I find the need for one less red mana irrelevant, but damn, since I run 11 fetches, I have rarely cast her when she is less than 4/4. Top decking mid to late game she is at least a 6/6. I have personally put this argument to rest, but I'm sure it still will come down to metagame/ pilot preference.

Has anyone tested Mother of Runes? She is the bomb in so many ways but I understand how she herself is not a threat....but, protects your creature, unlimited chump blocking, plus letting goyf or knight swing for the kill when you give them pro green during a goyf showdown...thoughts? mother of runes?

[MMogg]

I've been running a second Jitte main, and I do say, so often a resolved Jitte wins the game. Anyone else try this as of late?

Also, I've recently made the switch from Thoctar to Reliquary. I find the need for one less red mana irrelevant, but damn, since I run 11 fetches, I have rarely cast her when she is less than 4/4. Top decking mid to late game she is at least a 6/6. I have personally put this argument to rest, but I'm sure it still will come down to metagame/ pilot preference.

Has anyone tested Mother of Runes? She is the bomb in so many ways but I understand how she herself is not a threat....but, protects your creature, unlimited chump blocking, plus letting goyf or knight swing for the kill when you give them pro green during a goyf showdown...thoughts? mother of runes?

Have you tried Mothers? Did you take out Lavamancers or something else for them?

[JadeOberg]

I am in initial testing, just started this week. Took out 3 chain lightning ( I still run 4 helix 4 bolt) and kird ape. I haven't tested extensively yet, just wondering if anyone else had, but I plan to test further

[JamSpot]

I suggested Mother about 10-20 pages back. She is a card that draws, counters and removal because once she is in place she is pretty difficult to get rid of. She also helps save a creature from Firesprout which seems to be in a lot of boards...I like her a lot. Lavamancer I have found very poor and have sided him out a lot, his slots were given to Mother.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Sooo, just got home after a super long day, but I am pleased to announce that I managed to land second place in a 51-person mox tournament today, receiving four revised underground seas for my trouble. I'll post the full tournament report either tomorrow or tuesday (I'm exhausted) but the short version is:

R1 Bye
R2 Eva Green (2-0)
R3 Eva Green (2-0)
R4 Rug Goblin/Fish oddity (ID, thinking we can just ID into top 8.)
R5 Stax (Realize we have to play it out, 2-0)
t8 My brother playing a white homebrew deck, he scoops me into top 4 since I have better matchups
t4 Burn/Sligh, (2-0)
t2 Landstill, (1-2) Only person I lost any games to all day.

Some of the games were actually pretty interesting, but I'm far too tired to go into them now. I'll post a full report soon.

For reference, my list was this;

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [SHM] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
3 [B] Taiga
3 [A] Plateau
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
2 [FNM] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
2 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[Jayzonious]

Nice job on the finish! I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't pack any GY hate in my SB, and it cost me my 2 match losses. I knew you really over loaded and it was a good call for the meta, and I just noticed you didn't match up against much where it was needed. Wish I had your match-ups!

[uprite]

good finish lion, how have the canopies been testing for you? i have been thinking of them and they are soso from my testing. Are the KOTRs earning their spots? as well with FODs?

[Valtrix]

I think figure shouldn't be run too much, but I was playing 1 of him over the 4th kird ape recently, and found it to be very strong. It gives you even more guys with oomph, but doesn't really slow you down much at all. I definitely wouldn't go back to all kird apes, but also I wouldn't go to 4 figures either.

[jandax]

Grats, lion! What mox was up for first place, btw? Not that a playset of Underground Seas is anything to turn away.

Could you elaborate as to how a singleton Vines of Vastwood got in the maindeck? I can assume its value, but I'd rather know why.

[yadda]

ill just address the question about the mox since i was there too. (im the brother who scooped to lion in the quarters) it was a mox pearl. apparently it was only worth about $280 and since i think seas are worth at least $50 a piece i'd say we got the better end in some ways of that deal. at least as far as usefulness goes.

[P.S.]

So a bye, an ID, a concession, three tier two decks and a match win over Landstill earns you 4x Underground Sea. Who knew?

Congratulations! As an aside, if given the choice, I would obviously take the Mox over the duals. A "poor" condition Pearl is still $300 on eBay.

[jandax]

Yeah i'd take the mox if I could use the money, but the playset of Seas is way more useful.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Congrats on the finish! Eva Green is a miserable matchup in my opinion, so more power to ya! I wish the big tournaments we place would get posted or count somewhere. I see Legacy tournaments in Europe with 12 people make it to DeckCheck. So annoying..

[JadeOberg]

I figure I would post my weekend results as well, for the advancement of the deck and such. I am new to legacy, just got back into Magic after a 7 year hiatus. I always loved beating people with creatures and lightning bolt, so Zoo felt like the natural fit if I was going to get serious and enjoy tournament Magic. I picked up the deck in August, and I do say, I am amazed at how well this deck performs. It is so resilient against so many other decks it is ridiculous. I'm still not that good at Magic, learning the meta and the correct way to play the game (versus kitchen table magic), but I have had great results despite making mistakes along the way. I am really surprised more people don't play this deck at my local shop. We have a monthly that draws about 50 people and there is usually only 3-4 Zoo decks. Anyway. Tournament report. I'll take notes at the next one to give a better account.

Round 1 Aggro Loam

G1 First turn country side crusher, I mulligan, I'm dead on turn 4.

G2 Nacatl, goyf, burn finish on turn 5

G3 I had anwsers to all his creatures and beat in with goyf, ape

1-0
2-1

Round 2 Faerie Ninja Still
Really good match, trading blows left and right.

G1 I get him down to 1 life with lavamancer during a board stall, and I believe he topdecked a sower of temptation to steal it for the win.

G2 I was swinging with 3 Nacatls turn 3

G3 A really good game, he made a couple real nice plays, everytime I played a goyf he stole it. Toward the end, I topdecked 4 Arid Mesa's in a row. What are the odds of that?

1-1
3-3

Round 3 Tempo Bant
Another grudge match with lots of combat math

G1 Rhox War Monk keeps him in the game, burn to finish him.

G2 I scoop early, He denies me mana, plays goyf x2 and a war monk

G3 Things look good early but he gains board control, War monk gets him out of burn range. I topdecked like crap this game.

This pilot is really good at magic, I have previously seen him play tempo thresh to a top 4 in 50 man tournament, he piloted this to a top 4 here as well.

1-2
3-4

Round 4 Black UG countertop

G1 He gets stuck on one land and I win

G2 I topdeck enough creatures to overwhelm him before he finally gets CT online

2-2
5-4

Round 5 Merfolk

G1 Nacatl; Jitte; scoop

G2 Goyfs, Pridemages, Cats's and burn his creatures

3-2
7-4

Round 6 UBGW control concoction. Reminded me of Rock plus Force of will

G1 I win

G2 He wins

G3 He lays double Propaganda on me, Bob gets him down to 5 life, I think he vindicated his own bob, we both go into topdeck mode with the board in Goyf Stall, I draw the burn to finish him, He just drew more Bob's

4-2
9-5

In a 56 man tournament, I finished 9th. My tie breakers were great as Tempo bant and Aggro loam T8, and eventually both Top 4'd. The dude who got the eight seed went home cuz he didn't think he made it, So made into the Top8 woohooo

Top 8 Goblins #1 seed
G1 I survive his alpha strike with Lightning Helix and Go in for the kill with a host of creatures

G2 Price of progress'd me for the win, I didn't even see it coming, got me for 8 damage. I was still fetching duals cuz I hadn't seen a single Wastland from him in the first two games. Stupid

G3 I get Jitte attached to a 8/8 Reliquary, draw enough burn avoid taking the big damage, put him into topdeck mode and get the win.

Top 4 Zoo VS Temp Bant Aggro Loam vs Belcher

Belcher won their game, but we still decided to split prized at the top 4. I was happy to see two of my opponents in the top 4 in such a big tournament. Me and the goblins player split prizes, a a few duals.

My list

4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Goyf
4x Pridemage
3x Lavamancer
2x Reliquary

4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Chain Lightning

2x Sylvan Library
2x Jitte

11x Fetches
3x Taiga
2x PLateau
1x Savanah
3x Basic Land

3x Vexing Shusher
2x Choke
3x Tormods Crypt
2x STP
3x K Grip
2x Red Blasts

Notes: Lightning Helix won me the Goblins matchup. Drawing Jitte is never a bad thing. This is the first tournament I used KoTR over Wooly beast, and I'll never go back. I want to run one FoD main next tournament. Despite having a few misplays, this deck performed well.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Thanks everyone. I'll be writing the full tournament report tomorrow, so I'll go more in depth about stuff then, but just to answer the questions that have been posted...

I like Horizon Canopy a lot. This summer I ran 3, I went down to 1 some time this fall, but now I've bumped it back up to 2 and I feel like that's the right number for me right now. With 21 lands I don't find myself being worried about the fact that they don't count as forest/plains very often, and their utility is great enough that I like to have them in the deck. The flood protection is definitely worth it IMO.

FoD is a great threat, I like him as a 2-of and have for a while. He's lightyears beyond Kird Ape in terms of total power level, and he's an amazing beater when you play him right. Still though, drawing multiples really slows you down so the split between him and Ape feels right to me.

The singleton Vines made it in because it's actually a really great 1 of to have. If your opponent doesn't know your list, you can scare the shit out of them by t2 vinesing your nacatl with kicker after they try to swords it on your attack step, and for the rest of the match they try to play around vines even though you only have one. I didn't actually draw it all tournament oddly enough, but there were tons of points where I really wished I'd had it in hand.

Anyway, I gotta hit the sack, but I'll post my report tomorrow.

[chokin]

ok. I assume we are nowhere near each other at all. but on the off chance that I travel to some SCG 5K event in your area. give me your full name, number and home address. and then you can see how awesome I am in person.

Guys, the Secret Santa thread can be done through the mail. And this isn't the thread.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15248

There you go :)

So looking at Figure of Destiny...It's a 2 mana 2/2, a 5 mana 4/4 flier, and a 10 mana OMG WTF. I guess he can be split over a few turns, but to me, it just seems like a bad Watchwolf early on, an expensive evading Woolly Thoctar midgame, and a huge investment "OMG Don't STP this!" finisher late game.

So why not just run Knight or Thoctar? Thoctar is a static fatty, and Knight can be invested in to be big and scary if you want.

That's just me though. I just have never had 5 lands to make him a mean 8/8 He's usually an expensive Thoctar.

[chokin]

Well, from what your post said, it sounded like you wanted him to give you a Lightning Bolt. Is it really a fair trade?

And I've recently swapped Chain Lightning for Lightning Helix. Zoo is getting more popular. Plus being an instant is always nice...and that they can't shoot it back.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of development. Just a bunch of regurgitating of one list with about 6 cards different.

What's the best combo hate we have? I have a Belcher deck over here that keeps whipping my ass. Turn 2 Teeg seems to be the best option, but is this just a match where I have to accept defeat? Is that Mindbreak Trap any good? I've been running Needles in the side, but it just feels like a toss up.

[jandax]

Teeg + cannonist is a good combination for combo hate. You obviously aren't going ot race them out right, so swapping out some apes and paths/swords for 3/3 Teeg and cannonist will insure they have to Infernal Tutor for a Firespout wasting time. Plus, they beat face where needle doesn't.

Just some thoughts from personal experience

[hungryLIKEALION]

The thing that makes figure good is his versatility. At some point I'll write a manifesto on how to play with figure properly, because when you know what you're doing with him he's pretty absurd.

I like Mindbreak Trap, but I've never tested it. I actually bought a pair the morning of the mox tournament with the intent to play them on my SB (Along side 2-ofs of Teeg and Pillar) but when I showed up to the tournament there was very little storm and a lot more dredge so I went with more tormod's crypts. I can't imagine a storm player leaving silence in for g2/3 unless they see a trap in g2 and side it back in for g3. But that's what mixing up your hate is for; Play some disruption critters (Teeg, Canonist), some non-creature disruption (Pillar), and some spell disruption (Silence, Mindbreak Trap.) I know from my experiences playing storm that that is the scariest way to fight them, because it means the storm player has to side in multiple different kinds of anti-hate and draw all the right kinds. It's just a good strategy, and is really kind of common sense.

If I was playing in a combo heavy meta, I'd probably play 7 cards, probably 2 teeg 2 pillar 3 trap, or 3 teeg 2 pillar 2 trap. Or I'd play a different deck that's better against combo.

But if you're finding you're losing to belcher, then pithing needles and Engineered Explosives are good enough I find, and they're both very versatile cards that can be used in a lot of matchups.

Anyway, I'm gonna go write my tournament report.

[Nelis]

Although I like your thoughts on mixing up hate cards, I still would definitely play Teeg over Pillar, it's much more versatile. Good versus stax, landstill, nopro decks. Not to mention very handy vs Wog, Moat, EE, Chalice and the like. The other day I won a game just vs Armageddon Stax just because of Teeg.

Yeah, Figure is just plain crazy, can't wait for that manifesto.

[MTL10]

sorry if this has already been brought up, i feel like sifting through 90 pages of posts is excessive.
has anyone attested the argument of teeg versus ethersworn cantonist? i've been playing zoo for a few months now, and it's performed very well for me. i placed 11th at legacy worlds and top 8'd the last meandeck open. while constructing my sideboard to pinpoint problem matchups, i decided to chalk up storm combo to a loss. after plenty of testing and after finishing sideboard options for my most concerned matchups, i had 4 open slots in my board. i knew i had to board for storm but wasnt sure what. i'll go through my thought processes for each option:

pyrostatic pillar:
the thing i didn't like about it was the fact that blecher can still go off and make a bunch of goblins with pillar in play

chant/silence/abeyance:
they just don't do enough... they'll stop storm if played intelligently, but i have to hold mana up to use them efficiently, therefore not being able to create a board presence, giving them enough time to rebuild for another big storm turn.

that brings us to the most commonly plays characters in this slot:
gaddock teeg/ethersworn cantonist:
I group them together because they both serve the same purpose and they are both 2/2's for 2. i was initially attracted to one of these two because they are creatures and create board presence and induce a clock. i decided on canonist for the shear fact that i can play 2. being a former storm combo player, i know most ANT decks play 1 slaughter pact in the board for these 2 guys (i did when i played ANT at grand prix chicago) so having 2 canonists in play makes it nearly impossible to them to win (bearing IGG shenanigans)

for reference, this is my list:
4 nacatl
4 kird ape
4 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage
4 goyf
2 knight of the reliquary

4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 chain lightning
3 path to exile
2 fireblast

4 arid mesa
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

sideboard:
4 ethersworn canonist
4 tormod's crypt (most GY hate works)
3 pyroclasm
2 Krosan grip
2 metagame slots (last time i had wastelands but was dissatisfied)

i've noticed that most people had gaddock teeg instead of canonist and i'm curious as to reasons why. i'm excited to hear people's responses and feel free to ask anything about questionable cards in my list, i'm comfortable talking about anything.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Teeg shuts down Stax, too, while they can play all of their big artifacts right on through the Canonist. Also, Canonist is an Artifact, making it vulnerable-er.
Also, Why so Fireblast? I'd run an extra Path and Jitte/Scroll/Terravore/MD Teeg in those slots.

[MTL10]

Teeg shuts down Stax, too, while they can play all of their big artifacts right on through the Canonist. Also, Canonist is an Artifact, making it vulnerable-er.
Also, Why so Fireblast? I'd run an extra Path and Jitte/Scroll/Terravore/MD Teeg in those slots.

are you suggesting that people might bring in artifact removal against zoo? lol

and about fireblast, i'm not exactly sure about that slot... i played price of progess in that slot at legacy champs. it's the only slot in my deck that keeps moving around. i think at the next tournament it's going to be a 4th path and something else, likely a 3rd knight.

and also "shuts down stacks?" the cards i've been most concerned with are chalice at 1 on the draw, magus of the tabernacle, and ghostly prison. i guess the added benefit of helping out against armageddon and smokestack is nice. i'll be honest, when i first put the deck together, i didn't give stacks much thought, but because of its recent success i definitely should allot it the attention it's recently earned.

[Soldar]

I got a chance to play around with Figure of Destiny a little more today (my previous experience was with Figure was in a slightly slower GoyfSligh than what we have today), and I really liked it, but I think the creaturebase needs to be shifted around a little bit for it to work out properly. Too many hands were with Figure being the only 1 drop, and two 2 mana creatures. I will, as soon as my metagame becomes less hostile to aggro, (there were 5 different combo decks last night, and our weekly tournaments pull in only 16-24 people) be trying out something along these lines:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer (should probably be cut to 3, but it's hard for me to cut this number down, since I always want to see him)
2 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Vines of the Vastwood
Other spells

I mean, I went 2-2, but I played against Belcher(Not a lot of combo hate for Belcher in my board) and Reanimator(Had 3/2 split of Ravenous Trap/Relic, but tried to mulligan a little aggressively to no avail). Not places where a random 2/3 or 3/3 can shine.

I actually had a pretty interesting punt against the Reanimator deck (found out later that it didn't matter, but I could have played slightly better) where I was being attacked by an Empyrial Archangel, and if I had played the Forest in my hand the turn before, and grew my Figure to a 4/4 previously, I could use the 1 extra mana generated by a Knight of the Reliquary to make an 8/8 avatar, and intercept the Angel.

[blue_mage]

I’m new to zoo and I’m currently running the list below. I just played in a 59 player tournament but to my surprised I lost to Bant, Goblins and elves.

I have a couple of questions though hopefully somebody could help me out.

Even though I’m running 9 fetches and 3 canopies are 21 lands not to much? From my last tourney I had games were mana flood was an issue.
Is it ok to run 3 copies of canopy? Don’t we get mana screwed?

I don’t run fireblast but I’m getting curious seeing a lot of list with it. Is it really that good to play MD?

And concerning single jitte main deck, I find it too slow for zoo decks.

I like teeg because I can use it against dredge and ANT decks. But my SB is two teeg and two canonist.

A teammate of mine is running four copies of figure of destiny and he has consistently won top 8’s.

Land
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
2 horizon canopy
2 plateau
3 taiga
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
21
Creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
4 grim lavamancer
2 knight of the reliquary
22
Instant
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile

Sorcery
2 chain lightning

Artifact
1 1 umezawa's jitte

Enchantment
2 sylvan library
17

[Pastorofmuppets]

are you suggesting that people might bring in artifact removal against zoo? lol

and about fireblast, i'm not exactly sure about that slot... i played price of progess in that slot at legacy champs. it's the only slot in my deck that keeps moving around. i think at the next tournament it's going to be a 4th path and something else, likely a 3rd knight.

and also "shuts down stacks?" the cards i've been most concerned with are chalice at 1 on the draw, magus of the tabernacle, and ghostly prison. i guess the added benefit of helping out against armageddon and smokestack is nice. i'll be honest, when i first put the deck together, i didn't give stacks much thought, but because of its recent success i definitely should allot it the attention it's recently earned.

Well, there's also Elspeth/Humility/Moat, against which Canonist does nothing.
And also, people could, in theory, board in artifact hate against Zoo. Some people just plain don't like Jitte and Library. Other than mana involvement, there's really not much reason to run Canonist over Teeg.

[FieryBalrog]

Canonist is better than Teeg against Storm; They can do everything in their deck except cast their wincons with Teeg around, which makes it easy to find Chain of Vapor or whatnot, while Canonist hampers their ability to do anything for a while.

[Nelis]

Canonist is better than Teeg against Storm; They can do everything in their deck except cast their wincons with Teeg around, which makes it easy to find Chain of Vapor or whatnot, while Canonist hampers their ability to do anything for a while.

At worst it takes them an extra turn. Which of course sometimes is all that it takes.

But unless you're willing to sacrifice extra slots in SB for both Canonist and Teeg I don't see why you would want to weaken your other bad match-ups (Stax, Dredge) even more only to improve your other bad match up just a little bit by running Canonist instead.

[jandax]

Plus, Cannonist is easier to cast than Teeg. Just another pro.

[Nelis]

Casting cost isn't an issue. With a proper manabase you can cast Teeg just as easy as Canonist. When fighting Combo you want to (almost always) put down Teeg turn 2 otherwise it's too late anyway. You can fetch accordingly. If you can't you should have taken a mulligan.

[FieryBalrog]

At worst it takes them an extra turn. Which of course sometimes is all that it takes.

But unless you're willing to sacrifice extra slots in SB for both Canonist and Teeg I don't see why you would want to weaken your other bad match-ups (Stax, Dredge) even more only to improve your other bad match up just a little bit by running Canonist instead.

Yea, that makes sense. Although since Pridemage came, I find Stax is closer to 50-50.

I was wondering how Teeg really helped against Dredge only shutting off Dread Return until I realized Breakthrough doesn't work either.

[Nelis]

Yea, that makes sense. Although since Pridemage came, I find Stax is closer to 50-50.

I was wondering how Teeg really helped against Dredge only shutting off Dread Return until I realized Breakthrough doesn't work either.

Yeah, I agree. Pridemage is a winner. I am more and more convinced that it's not smart to take up a deck which depends on artifacts/enchantments to win/stall. Since not only Zoo but also Rock and countertop (and basically any deck that runs white and green) play Pridemage.

I don't even fear Chalice on 1 anymore with Zoo. Sure it's annoying but with Pridemage, Goyf and Library it's hardly a problem pre-side boarding let alone post-sideboarding. And most of the time you've already put down an Ape or Nacatl before chalice hits anyway.

[memnarch]

Teeg has also been great to me as a sideboard. And yes casting isn't usually harder. I do suggest running basics of course.

[Tacosnape]

Just curious to hear from the more experienced players, what's the real pro of running the basics? I haven't found that anyone's really had time to be throwing Wastelands at me, and when I ran the basics I had to mulligan a few hands that were playable otherwise. And I find I need double red in a turn too often to fetch the three basics which can cast my entire deck.

My biggest argument against running the basics is that I found that every time I have three land where two are duals and one's a basic, a Wasteland can shut me off of a color unless the two duals are the same.

[TotallySweet]

The basics have indeed been useful for me vs waste, but only to a point as you mention. Also, I haven't had a problem with needing to mulligan due to color screw (perhaps I'm lucky), and I even run more basics than normal I think (1 forest, 1 plains, 2 mountain).

Some other times I've found them very useful:
When I run price of progress.
When my opponent runs price of progress.
When my opponent runs Path.
When I play against Moon effects.
Stupid rare plays that shouldn't even be considered really (like pathing my own creature after a block to grab a second mountain for fireblast to win).

That being said basics aren't really that amazing versus for instance Thresh. Stifle on a fetch is way better for the thresh player than wasting one of my lands. Vs stax basics aren't so amazing either. Yes, they can stop a wastelock, but it seems like a cup of water in a lake with smokestack and geddon.

[Nelis]

I run 1 forest, 1 mountain, 1 plains for the same reasons TotallySweet mentioned.

I have found them useful against aggro loam as well. Usually fetching non-basics first until Devastating Dreams hits, then search for basics to avoid a Loam/Waste lock.

I can't remember having had many mulligan problems with the basics. But I have to admit I haven't really kept score. I'll paybattention to that in the future. I do not run Fireblast though, so that has never been an issue anyway.

I usually fetch Taiga 1st, Plateau 2nd, then basics. Only when I know my opponent plays wastes I search for basics because I don't like taking my chances at getting manascrewed. I rather be a turn slower than to risk losing my lands.


Vs stax basics aren't so amazing either. Yes, they can stop a wastelock, but it seems like a cup of water in a lake with smokestack and geddon.

I think they are, you want to be sure you can cast Gaddock Teeg or Qasali Pridemage without the risk of losing your lands to wasteland beforehand. Because we run a low number of lands in my opinion we cant risk losing them. That's my priority when facing Stax, anyway.

[memnarch]

@Tacosnape: You can even run basics in your sideboard along with Teeg etc. things you need for certain match ups to make sure you can drop your silver bullet. I find recurring wastelands a problem in loam and stax type of decks.

[TotallySweet]

I think they are, you want to be sure you can cast Gaddock Teeg or Qasali Pridemage without the risk of losing your lands to wasteland beforehand. Because we run a low number of lands in my opinion we cant risk losing them. That's my priority when facing Stax, anyway.

I just came off a debate with someone who was claiming that basics > stax, so perhaps I didn't emphasize enough how basics help. They certainly do.

[Nelis]

@Tacosnape: You can even run basics in your sideboard along with Teeg etc. things you need for certain match ups to make sure you can drop your silver bullet. I find recurring wastelands a problem in loam and stax type of decks.

That takes up too many valuable spots in your sideboard if you ask me. But I think we all agree that we need the basics.


I just came off a debate with someone who was claiming that basics > stax, so perhaps I didn't emphasize enough how basics help. They certainly do.

Ok.

BTW, I found out that countertop is a bit of a hard match-up as well. What do you guys have in your sideboard for that match-up?

[jazzykat]

BTW, I found out that countertop is a bit of a hard match-up as well. What do you guys have in your sideboard for that match-up?

That's funny because I usually throw my hands up in frustration vs. zoo when playing counter/top. They have exactly 1 way to keep us out of the game and that is counterbalance+top. Everything else they do is often too slow and your burn finishes them off.

The more I play zoo the more I'm certain that it is part of the old triangle representing aggro. Counter/top is control and AdN is combo. I feel your best bet is to play one of these decks or the most brilliant haterators for the GP in Madrid.

[Nelis]

That's funny because I usually throw my hands up in frustration vs. zoo when playing counter/top. They have exactly 1 way to keep us out of the game and that is counterbalance+top. Everything else they do is often too slow and your burn finishes them off.

Hmm, this was actually Bant I was playing, maybe that's the difference?

I hope I'll make Madrid but unfortunately it's not set yet.

[FieryBalrog]

Bant is a lot better because of Rhox War Monk.

I found Countertop to be a pretty even matchup. It's not lopsided in Zoo's favor IMO.

[Anusien]

Just curious to hear from the more experienced players, what's the real pro of running the basics? I haven't found that anyone's really had time to be throwing Wastelands at me, and when I ran the basics I had to mulligan a few hands that were playable otherwise. And I find I need double red in a turn too often to fetch the three basics which can cast my entire deck.

My biggest argument against running the basics is that I found that every time I have three land where two are duals and one's a basic, a Wasteland can shut me off of a color unless the two duals are the same.
The basics seem nice against Landstill if they clear the board and threaten to Wastelock you. It's unlikely that you can win in that situation anyway.

Mostly they're nice to have against Blood Moon type effects and opposing Path to Exile. I think you want 1-2 but 3 was too many in testing. I'd suggest losing the Forest.

[GUnit]

Basics can be pretty clutch against tempo-based strategies, because they keep your kittens and apes big in the face of wasteland and friends.

[Soldar]

So I did some more testing with Figure of Destiny, and some testing with Vines of the Vastwood.

Figure:
I don't like him in here, not with the number of 2 drops that are in most stock lists. Every time when he was in my opening hand I was wishing he was Kird Ape again. There weren't enough opportunities for me to want to play around Daze and Spell Snare, where I would then be playing into Engineered Explosives (additional 1 drop, usually Lavamancer).

Some of the times he became a 4/4, but he still wasn't the biggest creature on the table (Goyf). Knight helped him out in becoming the 8/8 monstrosity the one time, but then my opponent Stifled it.

Vines:
I don't think this is maindeckable, but I really like it if you're playing the combo-hatebears (Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist). I was maindecking two for a small local tournament. Teeg felt pretty good in my Landstill matchup, and I felt even better when I had Vines as a backup.

[Illissius]

An interesting list is this. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30552)

[Nelis]

The basics seem nice against Landstill if they clear the board and threaten to Wastelock you. It's unlikely that you can win in that situation anyway.

Mostly they're nice to have against Blood Moon type effects and opposing Path to Exile. I think you want 1-2 but 3 was too many in testing. I'd suggest losing the Forest.

I agree with GUnit, you need the forest often enough to keep your Apes 2/3 and also if you lose the forest then fighting Dragon Stompy is gonna be one tough cookie. U'll definitely lose if they play Blood Moon unless you're lucky and they're unlucky (or keep bad hands).

I played a small tourney today, 12 people attended, I won 5-0-0. Match-ups:Merfolk (2-1), B/W aggro control (2-0), Merfolk (2-0), Landstill (2-1), Dragon Stompy (2-1).The list I played:

4 Kird Ape
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
3 Path To Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wooded Foothils
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Price of Progress
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mainboard changes:
-3 Chain Lightning; Burn is good but I'm more and more disliking it because it's sorcery speed.
+1 Lightning Helix
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 undecided, maybe 2nd Teeg, or something silly like a wasteland. Any suggestions? I prefer either a permanent or a burn spell, preferably something unexpected.

About the sideboard:
Because I expected a lot of aggro and merfolk in particular I decided to run 2 Volcanic Fallout. Didn't expect combo (we always have a aggro meta) so I did not put in the 4th Teeg. I'm not sure about the Tormod's crypt apart from ichorid I don't really see any use for them. I might exchange those for Pithing Needle.

[MindFlayerMagi]

Any thoughts on Mark Larson's Zoo build that he took to 4th place at the SCG 5K on Sunday?

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Price Of Progress
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pyroclasm

Some notable things -- Steppe Lynx over Kird Ape, a strong presence for Grim Lavamancer, and Knight of the Reliquary and no Woolly Thoctar.

I haven't tested Lynx at all, but I can see where he's coming from -- it has more potential for pushing damage through. Do you think its strictly better, better in some matchups, or never really better?

In my latest builds of Zoo, I've been leaving out the Lavamancers. Looking over how they worked for him on Sunday, I'm definitely going to be testing them again.

I've been meaning to try KotR more, but it still seems weird to me to not run Thoctar, which has been one of my most powerful threats (and it is in the same casting cost slot that beats CounterTop). Is his list more in line with other people's experience lately, or do you still like Thoctar?

[Volt]

Well, KotR has synergy with Steppe Lynx, obviously. I certainly can't blame anyone for replacing Kird Ape. It's been the weakest link for a long time.

[wweenieking]

But vs Owen (43 lands) in the quarter finals he lost well due to a misplay or two, but also because he wasnt playing the apes. He drew 3 Lynx in a row and no land when if any of the 3 were a kird ape he would have won.

[Volt]

But vs Owen (43 lands) in the quarter finals he lost well due to a misplay or two, but also because he wasnt playing the apes. He drew 3 Lynx in a row and no land when if any of the 3 were a kird ape he would have won.

Yeah, I know. I watched that match too. I wonder, though, how many games he won throughout the day by swinging with 4/5 Lynxes.

I'm not advocating. I'm just saying I can't blame a guy for trying something different in place of Kird Ape.

[wweenieking]

And I agree too that Kird Ape is the weakest part of the deck, but im not sure Lynx is the best replacement.

[Otter]

He would've won that match against 43lands if he didn't massively misplay his Chain Lightning, that wasn't Lynx's fault. Though I get that it was illustrating how Lynx can suck, we also didn't get to see the times where Lynx was probably sick for him. I'm not arguing one way or another for Lynx, but since Lynx is at its worst late in the game and the misplays were what caused it to get to the lategame, I don't think it's great data.

(For those that didn't see it, 43lands has 2x Diamond untapped and Zoo casts Chain to the face pre-combat. Lands taps the two Diamonds and fries his Nacatal. Lands won at one life.)

[GUnit]

After seeing the amount of play mistakes in the top8 coverage, I wouldn't hold any of the card choices in the top8 decks as sacred.

That being said, I could see steppe lynx being, on average, better in this deck than the ape, given that his role is simply to get some early damage in, which the lynx seems better at given a reasonable draw.

[Svenyboy]

Of course Knight of the Reliquary has a synergy with Steppe Lynx but I think 4 Grim Lavamancer aren't good with 3 KotR... You want to remove some lands for Grim and KotR is then more little than a Woolly Thoctar or what do you think?

[sauce]

i am not a huge fan of steppe lynx, he is bad top deck late game as we saw, he is below average w/o KoR, but he is amazing if you get the nut draw (stream of fetchlands)

also... he may get dream crushed by stifle. (on fetch or on his ability)
kird ape is a known commodity.

obv, steppe lynx is better w/ KoR but if u got KoR and he is unanswered, steppe lynx is just a win more at that point.

while in the booth with GGSLive crew, the zoo player was talking a lot of noise, saying how h.canopy is terrible, sylvan library is terrible etc...
i bet he wishes he could draw some cards other than steppe lynxes vs 43 lands.

[Valtrix]

An interesting list is this. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30552)

I've actually been wanting to use Elspeth for a long time, since it's a different type of threat for us, so it makes me happy that somebody is actually using her. However, I think she might be too slow for zoo.

[MMogg]

i am not a huge fan of steppe lynx, he is bad top deck late game as we saw, he is below average w/o KoR, but he is amazing if you get the nut draw (stream of fetchlands)

also... he may get dream crushed by stifle. (on fetch or on his ability)
kird ape is a known commodity.

obv, steppe lynx is better w/ KoR but if u got KoR and he is unanswered, steppe lynx is just a win more at that point.

while in the booth with GGSLive crew, the zoo player was talking a lot of noise, saying how h.canopy is terrible, sylvan library is terrible etc...
i bet he wishes he could draw some cards other than steppe lynxes vs 43 lands.

Yes, Steppe Lynx is best in a Sligh build. Sorry kittie, but this is not your home. I just hate drawing one in my opening hand and having one fetch only (keep in mind that that build played a higher fetch count). I just hate how unpredictable it is, particularly without a massive payoff.


I've actually been wanting to use Elspeth for a long time, since it's a different type of threat for us, so it makes me happy that somebody is actually using her. However, I think she might be too slow for zoo.

I think it's there to push through damage perhaps in a aggro heavy meta. Turning Nacatl into 6/6 flying is very interesting indeed.

[troopatroop]

Yes, Steppe Lynx is best in a Sligh build. Sorry kittie, but this is not your home. I just hate drawing one in my opening hand and having one fetch only (keep in mind that that build played a higher fetch count). I just hate how unpredictable it is, particularly without a massive payoff.

It's a pretty massive payoff actually, with some risks involved. Obviously it paid off for him in the 5K, as he made top 4, but we'll never know if the change to Lynx won him any games that Kird Ape wouldn't have unless he decides to chime in on the subject. I'm on the fence about it in Zoo, because Kird Ape is a better topdeck and blocker, but I think Steppe Lynx is a MUCH better card in general.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Personally, I just don't feel like I make enough land drops on average to make Lynx work. He's only better than Ape when you hit a fetchland, so you have to run a lot of fetchlands to get value out of him beyond what you would a kird ape, and the potential for him to be dead weight is just so huge, and since he can never block effectively unless you leave fetchlands untapped (And at that point, you're not getting the extra offensive damage in...), I just don't see the point it trying to play him.

[troopatroop]

Personally, I just don't feel like I make enough land drops on average to make Lynx work. He's only better than Ape when you hit a fetchland, so you have to run a lot of fetchlands to get value out of him beyond what you would a kird ape, and the potential for him to be dead weight is just so huge, and since he can never block effectively unless you leave fetchlands untapped (And at that point, you're not getting the extra offensive damage in...), I just don't see the point it trying to play him.

Well if you hold the fetchland, he's attacking with the same P-T as Kird Ape. What exactly do you lose by playing more fetchlands btw? If the answer to Wasteland is more duals, wouldn't the answer to Stifle be more fetches? Kird Ape also has a huge potential to be dead weight by just being what it is. Kird Ape off the top isn't that much better than Steppe Lynx, because they're both horrible. In the first couple turns, Steppe Lynx is clearly better, which is what matters most in an aggro deck. He does more damage, that's the point in playing him.

[MMogg]

Well if you hold the fetchland, he's attacking with the same P-T as Kird Ape. What exactly do you lose by playing more fetchlands btw? If the answer to Wasteland is more duals, wouldn't the answer to Stifle be more fetches? Kird Ape also has a huge potential to be dead weight by just being what it is. Kird Ape off the top isn't that much better than Steppe Lynx, because they're both horrible. In the first couple turns, Steppe Lynx is clearly better, which is what matters most in an aggro deck. He does more damage, that's the point in playing him.

Unless you start with a 2 land hand and both are fetches. Then you can only use Lynx once, then he's a permanent 0/1 unless you topdeck another land. I tried goldfishing draws with him and I always seemed to get screwed. I wouldn't be so certain that Kird Ape is so bad in the first couple of turns. He can block fish and Goblins in the first turns, Lynx can't.

[Sevryn]

Maybe some number of steppe lynxes less than 4 is correct.

[MMogg]

Maybe some number of steppe lynxes less than 4 is correct.

But clearly a turn 1,2 or 3 Lynx is preferred to a turn 6,7 or 8 one, so wouldn't 4 x provide the highest possibility of drawing one? :confused:

[sauce]

whats next? kor skyfisher and plated geopede in legacy zoo?
if you have not noticed there was a lot of bad misplays in the legacy top8 (saw it in the coverage) and the guy with steppe lynxes did not win, thank god.

[Volt]

whats next? kor skyfisher and plated geopede in legacy zoo?
if you have not noticed there was a lot of bad misplays in the legacy top8 (saw it in the coverage) and the guy with steppe lynxes did not win, thank god.

Yeah, we're probably overreacting. I honestly don't think that guy's list is anything special.

[FieryBalrog]

After reading Sam Black's report on StarCityGames it seems like the play quality at this tournament was rock-bottom.

Like, things as hilariously bad as a guy with 4 mana open casts Counterbalance, Dreadnaught, Stifle, in that order (to pretty much win the game). His opponent has a Cursecatcher on board...

[hungryLIKEALION]

The answer to stifle is LESS fetches, so that you can play a dual or basic while they have U up and fetch once they tap out or stifle will no longer be terrible for you. And leaving a fetch uncracked for any substantial amount of time is terribad if you need to be casting spells at the moment, so that doesn't even become an option until well into the game. Kird ape on the other hand, while unexciting, is at least consistent in his ability to beat for 2 and lock for profit, no matter what point in the game you are.

Anyway, with the return of 43 land to prinence I'm wondering if maybe fireblast isn't warranted again, not for it's speed, but for the abolity to cast it despite being tapped out when they get their lock going. I'm not a huge fab of the spell, but it's utility is apparent.

[hungryLIKEALION]

This got posted twice, sorry, please delete?

[gravemind123]

Wouldn't Price of Progress be a better choice over Fireblast if you want to beat Lands? It is effective against a few other of our weaker matchups, particularly postboard Landstill can be a hard matchup and it will likely hit for about 4-8 damage there depending on the list and how many basics they fetched up and won't cost you two mountains.

[FoulQ]

What hungry is referring to is getting wastelocked (eta: and ported) by 43lands.

Pretty hard to cast price of progress with a couple dudes in play and no lands.

...now I agree that PoP is probably better, but I believe that is what he was getting at.

[Otter]

Fireblast is a kinda neat idea against 43lands when you're trying to finish them under Chasm while your basics are tapped out by Ports. However, I don't think that it's a realistic plan -- not only does this require you to have two basic mountains in the deck, it also requires them to be at four life or less and to not be running a copy of Ghost Quarter. Sounds far too situational to be worthwhile.

[Nelis]

What hungry is referring to is getting wastelocked by 43lands.

Pretty hard to cast price of progress with a couple dudes in play and no lands.

...now I agree that PoP is probably better, but I believe that is what he was getting at.

You don't play basics?

[FoulQ]

@ Nelis, Wastelock in addition to their rishadan port action.

[sauce]

some 43 run ghost quarter too so running basics is not gonna help you.

[eq.firemind]

Winter Orb in SB maybe? The card looks not useless against other control/manaintensive decks like Landstill...

[Nelis]

@ Nelis, Wastelock in addition to their rishadan port action.

Oh ok, I get it. But still no problem casting a PoP, just not on the turn you draw it. But yeah, it's still a bitch, esp when they combine it with ghost Quarter.

Then my question is: how often will all that come up? (I have no experience playing 43 Lands). And will that deck see (that) much play anyway?

And there's always Crypt/relic for those who still run it in their SB's.

[DCTopTeam]

Will be going to a year-end tourney this Saturday. LED-Dredge has won 3 out of 4 major tournament so far this year. Heres my build:


Lands

2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
________
20

Non-Crit Spells

2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Bolts
3 Chain Lightning
2 Call of the Herd
___________
16

Crits


3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goyf
3 Kird Ape (or Teeg)
4 Nacatl
4 Pridemage
3 Figure
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Woolly Thoctar
_________
24



SB:


4 REB
1 Relic of Progen
2 Rav Trap
1 Tormods
2 Swords
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip

Comments please?


My 2 brothers, btw, will be playing Goblines and Merfolk. We have already crafted a strategy against Dredge.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Will be going to a year-end tourney this Saturday. LED-Dredge has won 3 out of 4 major tournament so far this year. Heres my build:


Lands

2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
________
20

Non-Crit Spells

2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Bolts
3 Chain Lightning
2 Call of the Herd
___________
16

Crits


3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goyf
3 Kird Ape (or Teeg)
4 Nacatl
4 Pridemage
3 Figure
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Woolly Thoctar
_________
24



SB:


4 REB
1 Relic of Progen
2 Rav Trap
1 Tormods
2 Swords
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip

Comments please?


My 2 brothers, btw, will be playing Goblines and Merfolk. We have already crafted a strategy against Dredge.

tbh this list looks like a nightmare to me... 5 three drops? Do you play in a meta totally devoid of wasteland? And at that point, why 2 kotr 1 thoctar? why not 3 kotr or 3 thoctar? And Call of the Herd is just slow and unimpressive in the modern day legacy. It's not like those tokens can really put up a fight against goyfs, and EE is all over the place. And if you're that worried about dredge in this tournament, why not run more than 4 hate cards? Also, 3 bolts 3 chains!? Seriously!? Bolt is entirely superior to chain. PLEASE don't go to a tournament with your burn suite looking like that, I BEG YOU.

--

You can usually get 43 land to 4 life by the time they can get chasm lock active, and usually there's still a window of time before they can get all your non basics killed/ghost quarter running where fireblast would work.

And yes, PoP would be better, but I'm already running that. ;p

[from Cairo]

Comments please?

Personally I'd change the following

-2 Call of the Herd (mana intensive, outclassed, etc)
-1 Kird Ape / Gaddock Teeg / Figure of Destiny
-1 Woolly Thoctar (I'm of the camp that Reliquary is better, judging by the #s of the split you are too, so I'd just run 3)

+1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Chain Lightning / Lightning Helix (if expecting a bunch of Red or Chalice of the Void, I'd add the Helix, if not probably the Chain Lightning)
+1 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Red Source (Arid Mesa or Taiga probably; Mesa probably makes more sense w/ Grim, Sylvan and Reliquary)

[DCTopTeam]

Many many thanks!!

[DCTopTeam]

Already fixed the list. Added +1 Ape, +1 Chain and +1 Bolt; -1 Thoctar, -2 Call of the Herd. Regarding the Dredge thing, I was thinking of maindeck Teeg. I plan on removing the two libraries for in place of two Teegs main. Would that help?

[DCTopTeam]

Also added +1 Plateau -1 Savannah

[hungryLIKEALION]

Don't cut library, it's the most unfair card in the deck. You'd be better off cutting apes or burn for teegs. You've got 13 1 drops atm and probably only 11 are needed. But really, teeg is only a small speed bump for dredge when not combined with other hate. Yes he shuts down dread return, but he doesn't stop the rest of their deck from doing shenanigans. you're better off fighting dredge with a solid SB.

[jazzykat]

Greetings all. While this will be the zillionth zoo list this will be the first one that I have posted. While the list is standard, I would really appreciate if someone might look it over and see if I have missed something. My overall reason to use this particular list is to survive LD/Land disruption a little better than other lists since there is a lot of LD in my meta. My goal was to get rid of as many casting cost symbols in the deck while maintaining the strength that keeps zoo winning. In LD scenarios I move much more towards RG and cut out as much white from the deck as possible. Does anyone have any experiences or suggestions when facing down LD?

Thanks.
JKat


// Lands
1 [SHM] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
3 [b] Taiga
3 [A] Plateau
1 [b] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [REW] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

SB
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Price of Progress
3 Gaddock Teag
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

[Nelis]

That's almost my list. I'd say:

-1 Chain Lightning
+1 Lightning Helix

Instant speed is better, lifegain is better, CMC2 is better. (I went from 3 to 4 recently)

I have 1 Plateau less and a Arid Mesa more so I am a tad better equipped to find the sometimes much need basics. I don't have many mana issues and I can't remember ever needing a 3rd copy of plateau but I guess its a matter or personal preference.

[jazzykat]

Regarding Helix vs. Chain Lightning in general. I was actually considering going to 4 Chain and 2 Helix in order to be able to almost completely run on 1 forest and 1 mountain.

I feel like zoo is stronger than Tarmoburn but I almost like to turn into it in the face of a deck like Tempo Thresh.

Regarding: Fetch vs. Plateau I think you are right in saying it is preference. I like having at least 1 use out of my land instead of having to worry about stifle even more.

[Nelis]

In my experience the first land I fetch in face of wastelands is a basic, the second land is almost always a dual (sometimes fetching a basic is a possibility also but it depends on the hand). And usually you don't really have to play a burn spell on turn 2. And like I said before, I don't like the fact that Chain is a sorcery.

But from your point of view you're right. I just don't feel I need the deck to be able to play from a mountain and forest. But If I'm right Threshold decks are much more popular in Germany/Austria than in Holland so that's probably why you feel the way you feel about the deck.

I don't worry about Stifle that much myself. I don't come across them often over here. I actually can't remember the last time I encountered them. To me the possibility to search for a basic plains (or mountain) prevails most times.

[jazzykat]

Interesting. In the face of non-recurring wastelands I always fetch taiga, and make my 1 drop (nacatl or kird). When they waste that I go get my Plateau.

[Sigar]

Plateau doesn't boost ape ;D

[jazzykat]

Plateau doesn't boost ape ;D

I know, but depending on the situation I'm looking to drop my lavamancer or start to let removal fly to clear the way.

[Nelis]

But if you go Taiga, Kird Ape (with no nacatl in your opening hand) and they waste your Taiga and you play a Plateau, your Kird Ape is 1/1. If I do have a Nacatl in my opening hand I usually go Forest, EDIT: Plateau (instead of taiga).

A bit more specific. In game one if I have a 2 land hand I go for a basic, which one depends on my hand. If I have a 3 land hand I usually go Taiga, Plateau. Of course only when the other cards in my hand permit me to.

When it turns out people are playing Wastelands then I go for basics if possible. This means I usually sacrifice a bit of speed because I cannot always play the cards in my hand in the order I would like them to play. But again, only when the other cards in my hand permit me to. Otherwise I take the risk and go for non-basics. It's not like I am going to mulligan if I have a good hand but only non-basics and I know my opponent plays Wastelands.

This is why I prefer more fetch (even if it's only 1), more flexibility in finding the (basic) land I really need.


I know, but depending on the situation I'm looking to drop my lavamancer or start to let removal fly to clear the way.

Yeah that's true I sometimes have a forest which I can't use on turn 2. But a lot of times it's turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 Pridemage which is actually my favorite play. :)

[DCTopTeam]

Placed 4th. Lost to ANT in the semis. Will post the decklist and the details in the coming days.

[Curby]

@DCTT: Looking forward to it.

So re: Grim Lavamancer, is making it a 4-of a no-brainer? Having more than one seems pretty useless as we don't drop THAT many cards into the yard, and we want to keep some there for Goyf and/or Knight. The only reason for wanting to see more than 1 per game seems to be opposing removal. So is he so much more of a lightning rod than our other critters to warrant running 4 and risk seeing multiples? I've just started testing this deck so my perceptions may be skewed.

[sauce]

@DCTT: Looking forward to it.

So re: Grim Lavamancer, is making it a 4-of a no-brainer? Having more than one seems pretty useless as we don't drop THAT many cards into the yard, and we want to keep some there for Goyf and/or Knight. The only reason for wanting to see more than 1 per game seems to be opposing removal. So is he so much more of a lightning rod than our other critters to warrant running 4 and risk seeing multiples? I've just started testing this deck so my perceptions may be skewed.

multiples just swing for 1 each a turn... that's never bad.

[Curby]

In this deck? It kinda is. I mean, I think there are reasons to run 4, including opposing removal, but swinging for 1 a turn is exactly bad when we consider Kird Ape marginal for "only" doing twice as much.

EDIT: Reckless charge, anyone? They were talking about it in Naya Sligh. I don't think we have room, and our critters would probably get more use out of Rancor as they tend to be bigger anyway. Just wondering if anyone has tried it.

[sauce]

ok so run only 1 lavamancer then and hope to draw him..

[Curby]

Ok, does anyone have a constructive reply? Sauce's first attempt was misguided but at least it sounded like he was trying. Now it's just trolling. Again, I'm asking about 3 vs 4, not 1 vs 4.

[Rizso]

Ok, does anyone have a constructive reply? Sauce's first attempt was misguided but at least it sounded like he was trying. Now it's just trolling. Again, I'm asking about 3 vs 4, not 1 vs 4.

This is something i would like to get resolved as well. Been Testing 2 Grim Lavamancers, thinking of increasing the number but not sure yet.

[mmmetaphor]

I waffle between 2 and 3 personally... 4 is too many but 1 isn't nearly enough. I'd wager the best choice is probably meta dependent.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Split top 2 of a 15 man local tourney today... Ran a really weird build. You guys ready for this? ;p

3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Figure of Destiny

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth
1 Garruk

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Progress
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

... Obviously this is not a very normal zoo deck. There were a lot of card choices I've been thinking about lately, just intending to experiment a little, so when I got up this morning I decided to throw caution to the wind and try all the different things at once.

Obviously, Kird Ape is the most lackluster card in the deck, so I was trying to think of good creatures to replace him. The two thoughts I kept coming back to were Nimble Mongoose and Noble Hierarch. However, both created problems. Mongoose desynergized with Lavamancer, and Hierarch kind of begged for bigger spells to play. Well, I figured why not give them a shot and see where it takes me? I knew immediately that the big spell I wanted to play was Elspeth, because she's just ridiculously good. I also added a third knight, because hey, she's awesome too. Lastly a Garruk made his way into the deck since I only have two elspeths but definitely wanted three planeswalkers, and having both walkers in play at the same time would be pretty sexy. Lastly, I needed more than 21 lands to cast the 4 cc spells, so I added two treetops to help fight mana flood. Also, getting creatures with KoTR is awesome.

To accommodate the influx of new cards, lavamancer had to leave, kird ape and 1 FoD left, and I cut the Libraries. I didn't want to cut library, but the walkers pretty much filled the same role (a mid game card advantage engine) and something had to go. I also cut the chain lightnings and 1 lightning helix. Since this build was going to be slower but, generally more powerful, I didn't feel bad losing some burn.

So, I went 3-0-1 in swiss, won my round in top 4 and then split the finals.

Round 1 vs. Joe playing Stax
Game 1 I win the roll and open Nacatl, Pridemage, Goyf, Goyf, Helix, Savannah Fetchland. I play savannah Nacatl go. He plays t1 Trinisphere off mox and tomb, going to 18. I untap, fetch taiga, draw Hierarch, and swing for 3. He untaps, plays a plains, and geddons, going to 13. I rip Plateau off the top and play it, swinging in for 3 again. He plays a crucible of worlds and starts ghost quarter recursion, and mishra's factory recursion, but I get in for 3 once with my nacatl, putting him on 5. I manage to get up to three land and play a noble hierarch. He untaps, replays tomb, and casts Baneslayer angel, going to 3, and I untap and reveal my lightning helix in hand.

SB:-4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Path, -1 FoD, +4 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 2 he's on the play but we both mull to 6. My six is pretty good, while his is one of those poor stax draws the deck is famous for. He plays t1 Flagstones pass, I play hierarch go. He draws a mox diamond, plays it discard flagstones, and makes chalice at 1. I untap, fetch, play a KoTR, and pass. He misses a land drop and passes without play. I swing for 4 and pass because my hand is nacatl, nacatl, hierarch, bolt, helix. He makes a factory and passes. I swing again, putting him on 12. He finds a plains and makes a windborn muse. I pay to swing again and put him on 8. He makes a chalice at 2. I am sad since I missed my opportunity to use lightning helix. :( I untap and topdeck elspeth, and have been sandbagging the 4th source with which to play her. I do so and make a token. Next turn I jump the token and swing with both, and he chumps the token with muse and the knight with factory. I win the next turn.

2-0, 1-0

Round 2 JT playing Uwb control (Kind of landstillish, but not particularly.)

This is my brother, we decide to draw the round.

2-0, 1-0-1

Round 3 Todd playing Dredge

Game 1 I forget who wins the roll actually, but this was one of the most epic games I think I've ever played, particularly against Dredge. We both stay at 7. I don't think there's any way I can win g1 with this slow ass build of zoo, so I don't bother mulliganing despite my hand being 3 duals, a fetch, a basic, a treetop village, and a wild nacatl. I play nacatl, go. He plays putrid imp and starts dredging. I swing in for 3 and topdeck lightning bolt. He dredges three bridges into his yard via breakthrough and sacks the imp to therapy me. In response I bolt my nacatl, taking out the bridges. He sees my hand is all lands and passes the turn. I topdeck some burn and get my treetop into play while I have helix up. He brings back some ichorids and swings, and I helix one, going to 21 after my fetchlands. I play elspeth and make a token. He brings back 3 ichorids and swings all three at elspeth, and a narcomoeba at me. I don't block and go to 20. Next turn I topdeck Garruk and play him, making a beast. He brings back ichorids and mills his last bridge and swings in, and I trade a beast for an ichorid and take 7, going to 13, and getting rid of the last bridge. He also gets another narcomoeba this turn. I sac some canopies to get extra cards and play out a pridemage and make another beast with garruk, and bolt his zombie token on his next attack and block his ichorids, falling to 8 from the moebas. He plays a putrid imp and sacs the imp and two moebas to get a grave troll with 7 counters. I start begging my deck for a path to exile. I make another beast with Garruk. He attacks with his grave troll and I chump with the beast, and he makes another grave troll for 11 on his turn. I finally topdeck a path to exile so I get one last beast out of garruk and pass the turn. I chump the 7/7 troll with treetop village and path the 11/11 on his attack step. I untap and rip another path and pass the turn back. He brings back an two ichorids and swings in, I path the 7/7, and block an ichorid to fall to 5. He gets the fourth moeba out and I make a chump blocker and fall to 4 from the moeba's attack and block the ichorid. I then topdeck lightning helix. He only has enough black creatures left at this point to bring back 1 ichorid for each of the next two turns, and only has three cards left in his library. So he brings the ichorid back, swings, and I helix it and fall to 7 from the moeba. I then topdeck the last helix in my deck, giving me enough life to survive until he runs out of cards to draw.

SB:-2 Elspeth -1 Garruk -2 KoTR, +2 Relic +1 Crypt +2 STP

G2 he pulls transformational sideboard shenanigans, turning into a painter grindstone deck O.o I open on nacatl, he plays Golgari Thug, I play pridemage and swing, he plays painter and grindstone, I play a Goose and swing for 4, he blocks and activates grindstone on his turn, I shoot the painter in response with pridemage but he mills me for 6 anyway, and I get threshold. I swing in and he blocks one, dropping another painter. When he tries to mill me again I path the painter and swing for the win.

4-0, 2-0-1

Round 4 vs. Dan playing Survival Elves w/Natural Order

I win the roll, make a goose and pass, he makes an elf, I bolt it, he untaps and plays survival, I untap and play pridemage and take it out after swinging. He makes another survival. I drop goyf and nacatl and he plays out a dude to stall and I make KoTR and next turn topdeck a horizon canopy to throw into my yard to make my attack lethal.

SB:-2 Elspeth, -1 Garruk, -2 Helix, -1 KoTR +2 STP +1 Jitte +3 Grip
I considered bringing in Gaddock Teeg here, but ended up decided against it and opted to just try to be faster than him. Not what this build is optimized for, but I figured it was my best way to win.

G2 he mulls to 6 and opens on fetch->taiga elf. I respond with fetch->Savannah Hierarch. He misses his second land drop and plays another mana elf and passes. I make a Goyf and bolt an elf. He plays another mana elf and passes. I play a pridemage and an hierarch, swing for 6, and pass, putting him on 13. He RFGs a spirit guide and summons the almighty hydra. I play another goyf and a Wild Nacatl, presenting lethal if he swings. He plays a viridian zealot and passes back without attacking. I path the zealot and swing with my team, putting him to 4 and losing a goyf to the hydra. He does not topdeck the out he needs and succumbs to my armada.

6-0, 3-0-1

Cut to top 4 at this point, I'm 1st in the swiss standings.

Semi-Finals vs. Martin with UG Madness (!!! Kickin' it oldschool, this guy's got beta trops!)

G1 I keep a Nacatl, Pridemage, path, Elspeth, Elspeth, Plains, Savannah hand. I play t1 Nacatl and topdeck Treetop. He plays an island as says go. I play a new nacatl after attack, which he forces, and lay a treetop village. He plays a trop and passes. I attack with nacatl and treetop and pass, laying my plains. He intuitions for wonder, roar of the wurm, and AK. I give him wonder. He plays wild mongrel. I path it, which he circular logics for 2, which I pay and then swing with my nacatl. At this point my hand is bolt, bolt, helix, Elspeth Elspeth, meaning I can't cast anything in my hand. He plays another mongrel and I continue to topdeck blanks. He starts making wurm tokens and I eventually die, never drawing a 4th land or a red source.

SB:+2 STP, +1 Jitte, -1 Bolt -1 Helix -1 Forest

G2 I keep a really fast hand and play nacatl, hierarch + goose, KoTR, and just run him over.

G3 I keep another fast hand and play out multiple hierarchs and a Pridemage, swinging for huge chunks with a goyf at 6/7 due to exalted, right passed his 6/6 wurm token. I play a KoTR and play Elspeth to jump it, sealing his fate.

8-1, 4-0-1

At this point Dan, the Survival Elves player, and I split the finals, each getting three booster packs. Even though I had a pretty good matchup for the finals, I felt like going home and didn't really want to play any more magic for the day.

So, with a tournament now under my belt with this build, I do have a couple things to say about it. First of all, Mongoose was sick every time I drew it. I honestly liked it more than lavamancer, and this wasn't even a build optimized to utilize him since I had a huge permanent count. He might not be as good in a faster build, but since this build was a little slower anyway I didn't mind waiting a bit longer to get him to 3/3 status.

Hierarch was bonkers. This guy is incredible. I was so happy every time I got to open on him, the extra mana he gives you makes it much easier to apply early pressure and keep removal up, or get faster activations out of pridemages when you need to quickly answer problems, and the 8 pack of exalted creatures was a huge advantage. Made swinging into blockers entirely fearless, which was fun.

Elspeth was, as expected, very good every time I played her. I usually just made a token and then pumped it each turn, but there were a few points where I jumped a KoTR for massive damage, and those times were pretty sweet. Garruk only got into play against Dredge, which honestly made no sense, but he was pretty phenomenal when he did there, buying me 3 whole turns to topdeck other spells. Without him I most likely would have lost. The treetops were nice to have, and I did attack/block with them a few times throughout the day, though I never fetched one with KoTR. I did fetch horizon canopies a few times, so I'm glad I had two of those.

On reflection, this build would have been better with STP than Path since I'm looking to win the game more with card quality than blitzkrieg speed.

Overall, this was a very fun experiment. The deck, while slower, is a lot more powerful. Against basically anything that isn't Tendrils, you have a very good game plan of out-qualitying them on every card, and the planeswalkers have huge utility by allowing you multiple types of threats in the mid game. I did miss library, but this build really didn't need it.

I don't think I'd take this list to a more competitive tournament yet, but it was a ton of fun to play today and definitely got me out of my funk with zoo. I was really starting to get bored with the deck, and today definitely turned that around. My creative juices are definitely flowing now, and I'm gonna put some serious thought into how I'm gonna get hierarch into my normal list now ;p

Thanks for reading
--hungryLIKEALION

Edit//About lavamancers, I've been running 3 in my normal build since the beginning of time and have always liked that number. You can reliably draw one, and when they choose to use their removal on it instead of my other creatures I usually just shrug and say 'okay' if I don't have a second. Not having a lavamancer on the table isn't a death sentence, so when he gets removed but a goyf or KoTR lives I'm usually fine with it.

Edit2//Also, Reckless Charge is awesome, but I usually only play it as a 1 of when I play it, 2 at most, because drawing multiples in the first few turns is a nightmare. You also want to run at least a full set of nacatls and apes if you're going to run it, if not more 2 power 1 drops, so you can go t1 cat/ape t2 cat/ape+charge as often as possible. It's good even in the mid game though if you want to screw up their blocking math, or just get an extra six damage out of one card.

[Rizso]

I really dont like the Kird Apes so. Been looking at replacements as well.

How was Nimble Mongoose for you without the Cantrips?
Possible a heavy burn / Fetch land version could take advantech of the Threshold or is 7 card to the graveyard to much of a hassle.

[Illissius]

There's this other... interesting... build (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30594) which also uses Hierarchs.

[Curby]

Heh, cute. I was wondering what Grove was doing there until I saw Punishing Fire. I wonder how well that works... Lavamancer just seems so much simpler.

EDIT: Why the hell not just use Lavamancer, Taiga, and Path? Unless you're expecting to recur multiple Fires, this seems way too slow. Unfortunately, the deck has no way to fetch and recur multiple Fires.

[DCTopTeam]

So heres my report. Like I said earlier, I placed 4th in a local yearend Legacy tournament losing to ANT in the semis. There were 64 players all in all. Id like to start with my decklist.

Lands
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
20

Creatures
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape4
Wild Nacatl
24

Non-creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
16

Sideboard
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elem Blast
3 Krosan Grip

Id like to break down the discussion into two: first the decklist, and second, the matchups.

Decklist

Last November, I played Zoo for the first time in my life having jumped from almost all decks in the format specifically Burn, LED and non-LED Ghast-powered Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins (RW and RB). I had a dismal performance in that November tournament managing only 1-5 (6 rounds) placing dead-last in a field of 62 players-- the decklist and the matchups in that tourney was I think in pages 80's or earlier 90's of this thread. So it was really really disappointing. Adding insult to injury was that one Zoo made the top 8. So with the help of you guys in here I submitted the deklist that I was planning to play in the year-end tournament and I received mostly negative reviews which I took positively. So I edited the deck and hence the decklist above.

Lands

I was really really torn between another basic Mountain and a Savannah but I decided to stick with Savannah. With regards to Canopy in general, the result was "okay." Okay in the sense that there was no point in that I said that "I wish I just had one of this" but I must admit that the "lose-life" and the disynergy with Apes and Nacatls was there. WIth regards to the "card-draw" ability of the Canopy, I dint come to the point that I sac-ed it and I topdecked a game-changing spell. I would not elaborate further on the lands. I know its a complicated (but crucial) thing for Zoo but I just wanna share the other parts of the deck.

Creatures

My November list didnt ran Figure but having read Lion's comments on FOD I started giving it a try. Well, it worked so well for me. I had consistent T1 FoD, T2 Ape and swing with FOD for two something like that. Also managed to pump it to 4/4 several times. My opponents were also paranoid with FOD that almost all their removals were focused on him so with that I can play Mancers without hesitaton. I ran 1 Thoctar during my old list but I decided to cut it based on the comments that I have received. I wasnt able to find an additional Reliquary in time so I just had two. KoTR worked so so well for me. I was feeding my Goyfs for my opponents removal until I play my KoTR which most of the case was bigger than Goyf. It also negates the opposing players Goyf in the sense that a 4/5 Goyf can never kill a 5/5 Knight.

Non-creatures

It was funny I planned on having just 3 Chain Lightnings but upon my arrival at the tournament venue, I realized I had four! LOL. Dint have the time to re-edit the deck so 4 Chains stayed. The Chains were perfect I must say. The Libraries were also insane! IMBA! I was really thinking of cutting it in place of two maindeck Teegs since I was preparing for Dredge until Lion said that I musnt and instead cut either a burn or another crit (am I right Mr. Lion?).The Libraries were crucial because I drew "game-changing" and also "game-winning" spells ie Path, Chains, Bolts etc. Regarding the Helix, I decided to cut it to two because I dont want to see 2 in my opening hand and I never regretted it.

Sideboard

The Rav Traps and the Relics and Tormod's are for obvious reasons as with the others. The QUESTION MARK in here would be the Firespouts. Well, almost all said that FSpout in the main was stupid but I almost always say that "Zoo's creatures are a lot bigger end-game than most aggro decks." I didnt mind trading my 3 creatures for an opponents 4 or five if it meant the only way-out if I were to be out-aggroed. Besides, by common sense, you will not cst the Spouts if you knew that you have a huge board presence. The call was a bit right IMHO. There were plenty of Goblins in that tournament so I think the Spout was the right call.

I essentially based this assumption on my playtesting with my brother and his BR Gobs. My experience playing the BR build is that is almost always beats Zoo esp in the SB after the darn Perishes have been sided in. Specifically, the BR build that my brother ran had Weirdings, Smothers, Bolts and Gempalms. Almost always, we trade removals for our creatures but the HUGE HUGE HUGE difference was a resolved Goblin Ringleader which allowed him to draw Goblin threats whilst the most I can top-deck is an Ape, or Nacatl since the fatties were long gone in the first place.I didnt have Teegs or Canonist in the SB. Honestly, I did not regret it until the semis match-up with ANT. But come to think of it, the Spouts helped me get to top 8 (and top 4) but did not against ANT. So I was wondering, would I get to top 8 or Top 4 if I had the Teegs or Canonists? The Spouts btw were also final minute-changes in place of 2 Pyro Pillars (which could have won me the game against ANT in the semis).

The match-ups

R1: Slivers

G1: I play and cast an Ape and pass. His turn he plays Vial and passes. My 2nd T I play another Ape and then I swing. His next turn he plays a Crystalline Sliver OMFG in my hand I see 2 PTEs and a Bolt. My next tuirn I try to attack the Crystalline but he Vials that +1/+1 White sliver I forgot the name and my Apes die. Next turn he drops a Winged Sliver and a Muscle Sliver and I scoop.

G2: He tries to counter everything which gave me a sign that he aint got no Slivers which. Luckily I dint have much removals my hand was filled with creatures so I beat him down for the win.

G3: Same as G2

1-0

R2: BGW Rock

G1: Classic Rock turn Ritual for Hymn and Thoughtseize. He takes out 2 Plateaus and a Goyf. I Dint draw a land the next turn. His next turn he Dark Rituals again and Hymns again and he casts a Goyf. He beats me down and I cant recover so I scoop so I have more time G2 and G3.

G2: Nacatl and Ape beatdown. I burn him and Paths his Goyfs and Reliquaries. I win.

G3: He managed to Vindicate my land but the moment I hit two mana, I immediately cast Library which proved crucial with him having a KoTR in play. I Libraried and saw 2 PTEs which I used to hit the Knight. He plays a Goyf and passes. I Library a PTE Land and a Knight. I take 4, take the PTE and the Knight and play her. On his turn he tries to swing with his Goyf but I hit it with a PTE. My turn I Library a Goyf and another PTE (OMFG). I beat him down with Knight and Goyf with a PTE and K Grip backup.

2-0

R3: UWR Stax

G1: He goes off first and plays a Welder. I Chain it in my turn. He passes. I play an APe and a Nacatl and pass. He plays a CoW and passes. I managed to get him to 8 until he Geddons which made my Ape and Nacatl 1/1. I had no more lands and he resolves Welder. He Welds for Inkwell and I scoop.

G2: He casts a T1 Chalice which delayed me until I Grip it. He casts Razormane Masticore with me having a 4/4 FoD in play. He hits the FoD with the Mssticore's 3 damage and uses Barbarian Ring. He plays CoW and recurs the RIng and beat me down with the Masticore.

2-1

R4: Pro-Bant

G1: He goes first and plays a N. Hierarch which got me thinking. realizing that the Hierarch would do nasty things, I Chained it and he does not get the T2 Rhox War Monk. He managed to get another N. Hieararch with a RWM. I cast a Goyf which he Forces using Progenitus which made me nearly jump off my seat. I managed to PTE a Monk but he cast a Goyf. On my turn I cast my own Goyf and I remembered having an Ape a Nacatl and a 2/2 FOD while he has a RWM a Goyf and a Hierarch. I pass. He swings his Goyf with Exalted so I take it. He Natural Orders for another Goyf just so he has a blocker. I the cast Chain on the Goyf before combat and combat begins. Cant remember what happened I just remembered that after that a Nacatl and a Knight remain in my zone while he had a RWM and another Goyf in play. In his turn I PTE his Goyf hes left with RWM. He cant find answers and I win.

G2: Sylvan was huge. He was able to cast a Counterbalance while I beat him with Apes and Nacatls. I play Knight nad Mancer and he reveals Daze in the CBlance and I immediately Red Elem Blast the CBlance. I cast a Goyf and swing with Ape, Nacatls and Knight and shoot for two using the Mancers. He cant recover and I win.

3-1

R5: UGR Fae

G1: Ape Nacatl sweet. I resolve a Mancer. I swing and Burn and I win.

G2: I had a huge misplay I cant remember it because it was really really disgusting. Caused me the game. I lose and off to G3.

G3: Apes, Nacatls again. I path his Goyf. I cast my own. I swing and burn.

4-1

R6: We ID. But I think he was playing Dredge. Yikes.After Swiss I was number 7. The guy I ID'd was pushed off the Top 8. Not my fault, he said he wanted his teammate in the T8.

Top 8 vs Mono Red

G1: He plays a Lackey and I chain it on my turn. Hes stuck at two lands and hes only got a Piledriver. I got FOD, Ape and Nacatl. I swing, swing swing and win!

G2: He plays land and Vial and passes. I play an FOD. His T2 he passes hes got no land drop. Judge warns me due to some misplaced card, game was delayed for 10 minutes and during his turn he Vials an Instigator which I Bolt end-turn. My T3 I was swinging with Ape and FOD and at three mana I Grip his Vial and he scoops.

Semis vs ANT

G1: He goes off T2 w/o Ad-Naus and with the help of Ill-Gotten Gains.

G2: I had no SB so obviously I was drawing dead. I kept on mulling with multiple burn spells bec my hands were only had 1 burn spell. I mull to three with Plat Chain and Bolt, LOL. I play first I Chain. My second Turn I pass. He Ad-Naus but its not withing my L.Bolt reach. I lose.Well thats about it! Managed to land 4th and got only a Senseis FTV. The Finals btw was ANT and UGR Fae (not the same player). If I had get past the AnT, I like my chances against the UGR Fae in the Finals. First prize was Volcanic Island.

The Finalists dint play, they just split the prize due to fatigue or something and the fact that theyre friends.This tournament was also a form of vindication for me. During that November tournament wherein I had a 1-5 record, I placed dead last!!! Yes, DEAD LAST in the rankings! And a month before, a was 4th overall.

I just realized after the tournament that I had the chance of doing (what I think) what no Magic player has ever done before--- Win it all after getting last place in a Legacy tourney a month before (November) in the same venue, with virtually the same deck and with the same number of players!Props to my teammates for the rigorous playtests, to my brothers (the other was playing BR Gobs the other was playing MonoU Merfolk) and the people in the Zoo forum!

Where do I go from here? Well, honestly im gonna try playing Rock but I still love Zoo and would obvioulsy play it again esp in big-event Legacy tournaments!

[Curby]

Thanks for the report, and congrats! I was about to ask if you've thought about dropping Ape, since he's generally considered the worst 1-drop we have. However, from your reports he seemed to be consistently awesome. Was the power of 2 not an issue as the game went into turn 3+?

Other questions: What would you have taken out if you had the third Knight? How often did opponents blow up your libraries, given that they're your only ench/art?

Especially since you run Apes and Libraries, I think cutting the canopies may be worth a shot.

[DCTopTeam]

Thanks for the report, and congrats! I was about to ask if you've thought about dropping Ape, since he's generally considered the worst 1-drop we have. However, from your reports he seemed to be consistently awesome. Was the power of 2 not an issue as the game went into turn 3+?

Other questions: What would you have taken out if you had the third Knight? How often did opponents blow up your libraries, given that they're your only ench/art?

Especially since you run Apes and Libraries, I think cutting the canopies may be worth a shot.

I tried the Lynx but did not like it. Im a fan of the one-drop so IDK if id drop the Apes really. The power 3 was not an issue I swing him regardless and I Bolt the opponets bigger creatures. Even if it is 2-1 its fine with me as long as a fatty gets out of the way.

-1 Chain + 1 Knight given the chance.

Re the Libraries. They didnt blow the Library, maybe they underestimated the card :laugh:

[DCTopTeam]

Maybe id try cutting the 1 Canopy for another Mesa. IDK maybe. Ill try.

[keys]

I can see Canopy being cut in a meta without land destruction, but where I play about half the games I see Wasteland or Stifle, and Sinkhole is played by a dedicated few (Eva Green got a bone thrown its way with Nighthawk). So many games I would've had to mull a 1-lander but the Canopy saved it. Often my white source gets wasted and I topdeck Canopy to cast a game winning Path or Helix (which has surpassed Fireblast as the best burn spell after Bolt/Chain, imo). Other times I'm just as happy to start popping them as soon as I hit the 4 land mark.

At a local tourney yesterday I went 5-0 then scooped to my friend round 6 (he was playing gobs) so he could place higher in the swiss+1. My matchups were Merfolk, Full English Breakfast, Survival Elves w/ NO, Eva Green, and Burning Bridge.

Here's the list I played:

1 Figure of Destiny (seemed okay as a 1-of but nothing spectacular, this deck has harsh tempo requirements already)
3 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer (MVP creature)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix (MVP burn spell)
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:
4 Price of Progress (expected to see Lands.dec and lots of Supreme Blue)
3 Krosan Grip (expected Stax, CBTop, and some chalice aggro decks)
2 Jitte
2 Choke
2 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg

[sauce]

ive replaced 2 library with 2 magma jet for testing purposes, so far ive been liking it... has anyone else tried this before?

[Gibsonmac]

yeah, a long time ago... thought it sucked, library is a card that i'm always happy to draw

[Valtrix]

The ability to play library, get three new cards next turn, then see three more new cards the turn after is absolutely game breaking. Magma jet does not compare at all to that.

Also Lion, thanks for starting to test some cards I've wanted to see for awhile :P

[Curby]

Yeah Library does a lot more than Magma Jet does. To even try to pull close you'd probably want to run 4 in place of some other burn. If you're like jazzykat they may make an on-color stand-in for Lightning Helix. But ultimately Scry 2 isn't the same as Draw 2 (you're drawing one anyway), and the mana commitment and loss of draw power isn't worth the 2 damage when we'd rather have a more stable way of drawing into our more efficient damage sources.

[memnarch]

Also a splash of black for DC run with vial has been working well for me. It gives you engineered plague for the side as well.

[Curby]

DC is used in Domain Zoo along with Tribal Flames, but it pretty much instantly folds to nonbasic hate. Vial seems to be more suited to a slower deck than Zoo, and therefore doesn't belong. In the end an on-color Confidant would be better than Library, but stretching the manabase so far is too dangerous for many players. Out of curiosity, what's your full list?

[memnarch]

19 land total
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Savannah

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Neacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile
3 Chain Lightning
4 AEther Vial

side:
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

This deck is such a low curve its made for DC. Also I haven't found vial to be bad in the least. It can surprise an opponent forcing worse decisions. And an early trump to control magic. Not to mention if you do get mana screwed its another option. Its something that gives you outs against otherwise tougher match ups. Merfolk is tough and it helps with that to a degree. Vial is one of those cards over the years you just kind of know through experience how good it is. And in this deck it works you set it to 1 or 2 its real simple and quick and makes sure DC hits the board too. Its part of what makes Merfolk a GREAT deck its part of why goblins is a GREAT deck why not use it?

[Curby]

Vial certainly has its uses, but I still don't think it belongs. The loss of a full turn seems too significant. Others probably have more well-considered explanations.

Wasteland is part of what makes Merfolk a great deck, and Siege Gang Commander is part of what makes Goblins a great deck, but we don't run those even though we could. Burn is made much more consistent by Magma Jet yet we don't use it either. Your closing arguments are irrelevant, as decks have different goals and therefore have different expectations when considering cards.

EDIT: Ever consider a Doran or two? Helps Goyf and Ape which overcomes its hurting Confidant, and takes the place of big beaters #5-6 in the RGW decks.

[memnarch]

@kirbysdl: AEther vial evens itself out tempo wise most of the time though, depending on if you happen to get a near creature-less hand which rarely happens. This deck takes 4 or more turns to kill usually. So you invest one for the vial and by turn two you already get that investment back by being able to drop a 1CC for free so it empties your hand more quickly. It can even be a tempo increase at times because you are able to drop twice as many creatures as normal. I find that the benefits it gives me in versatility against otherwise tougher match ups is worth it to run. Although the original function was for DC and not having to splash too heavily to support him.

[Tacosnape]

Vial only makes Goblins and Merfolk good because card draw is what makes Aether Vial good. And don't even begin to attempt the argument that Dark Confidant provides the card draw. Relying on 4 creatures in your deck that only have 1 toughness and have to live a turn to even cantrip at the price of life loss doesn't even remotely hold a candle to Goblins' Matron/Ringleader engine or Merfolk's Standstill/Silvergill setups.

I see the argument for Dark Confidant, but Vial's a weak link in my opinion.

[Valtrix]

I've played with vial before, and it's just not worth it. You really don't get any benefit, because unlike merfolk we don't have other cards (standstill) to break it and unlike goblins we don't curve out the same. In addition, it really doesn't increase your tempo. As such you get nebulous gains like having more options against wasteland and making opposing standstills less useful...However, those minimal gains do not compensate for the fact that drawing vial replaces drawing another creature, land, or other spell, all of which are much more useful than vial.

[Curby]

I've played with vial before, and it's just not worth it. You really don't get any benefit, because unlike merfolk we don't have other cards (standstill) to break it and unlike goblins we don't curve out the same.

And unlike Slivers and D&T we don't have critters to Vial in at instant speed to counter removal, pump creatures, etc. There aren't alternative casting requirements like those of Serra Avenger or Silvergill Adept to cheat. There are plenty of reasons to run Vial, but they don't really apply here.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I top 8ed a 33 man last Wednesday. I had to keep Sylvan Library in because my meta is becoming more control oriented. I wanted to put Jitte back in the maindeck but i guess it'll just stay in the side for now.. after i just got a foil one too :(

Also my deck is almost foil now. Pretty freaking sexy. The only maindeck spells not foil are my bolts and they're foreign blackbordered.

But yeah, Aether Vial sucks in this deck I'm pretty sure it's been established since last summer or so. Jeez i remember those flames haha.

I wish this deck had more outs to RWM other than 2for1ing yourself or PTE :frown:

[MMogg]

I top 8ed a 33 man last Wednesday. I had to keep Sylvan Library in because my meta is becoming more control oriented. I wanted to put Jitte back in the maindeck but i guess it'll just stay in the side for now.. after i just got a foil one too :(

Also my deck is almost foil now. Pretty freaking sexy. The only maindeck spells not foil are my bolts and they're foreign blackbordered.

But yeah, Aether Vial sucks in this deck I'm pretty sure it's been established since last summer or so. Jeez i remember those flames haha.

I wish this deck had more outs to RWM other than 2for1ing yourself or PTE :frown:

Depending how prevalent RWM is, you can try secret tech like Char or even Vines of Vastwood/Giant Growth/random pump spell. If he had just one more power you could Reprisal. I know those are suboptimal choices normally, but if you find the games you're losing are because of RWM in particular, you can try out some of the options and see if they work.

Please post your deck in the pimp Legacy thread. :smile:

[from Cairo]

I wish this deck had more outs to RWM other than 2for1ing yourself or PTE :frown:

One can always run a few additional Swords to Plowshares, main or SB, if the amount of 4+ toughness creatures dictates a need for more non-burn removal. Swords can be more counter productive than Path, but stalling out on the ground because of a bunch of 3/4s and 4/5s is much more of an issue than them gaining a few life.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Depending how prevalent RWM is, you can try secret tech like Char or even Vines of Vastwood/Giant Growth/random pump spell. If he had just one more power you could Reprisal. I know those are suboptimal choices normally, but if you find the games you're losing are because of RWM in particular, you can try out some of the options and see if they work.

Please post your deck in the pimp Legacy thread. :smile:

Yeah i took swords out of the sideboard because i don't really need it anymore. RWM doesn't get run in my meta at all, i was just speaking for a more general perspective. The few games I've had to play against it was pretty much miserable especially when they just get Exalted from a Noble Hierarch.

I've thought about posting it sometime, but it would just get laughed at seeing as it's all English copies of cards. Even though i prefer English foils because i like being able to read them, plus financial issues pimping things, most people just dump a grand into their deck or jap foils.

[jandax]

I scanned through most of the thread, and have something to throw out there:

since Zendikars spoiling, has anyone done any playing with Goblin Guide in for Kird Ape? I think the drawback is huge in this format, and against a Top deck it isnt worth the 2 damage. Maybe Ive answered my question already, but then again I havent done anything with it so I dont know for sure.

Also, from personal experience, having 10`-12 burn spells is better than not. I scrubbed out of a ~60 man tournament, mostly do to poor play, but I often found myself wishing I had another set of burn in the deck to finish off. I lost three matches with opps under 6 life, wishing I had chain lightning or fireblast or something for those final points.

One more question, is domain zoo even more suseptable to wasteland than normal zoo? Or does one simply get Bob out and play through wastelands on their black sources?

[Gibsonmac]

I scanned through most of the thread, and have something to throw out there:

since Zendikars spoiling, has anyone done any playing with Goblin Guide in for Kird Ape? I think the drawback is huge in this format, and against a Top deck it isnt worth the 2 damage. Maybe Ive answered my question already, but then again I havent done anything with it so I dont know for sure.

Also, from personal experience, having 10`-12 burn spells is better than not. I scrubbed out of a ~60 man tournament, mostly do to poor play, but I often found myself wishing I had another set of burn in the deck to finish off. I lost three matches with opps under 6 life, wishing I had chain lightning or fireblast or something for those final points.

One more question, is domain zoo even more suseptable to wasteland than normal zoo? Or does one simply get Bob out and play through wastelands on their black sources?

try GoyfSligh, its a loose zoo shell with 16-20 burn spells... its in the established deck forum... domain zoo is pretty much unplayable if there is any sort of tempo thresh presence, just run library, its better than bob and its ON color

[FoulQ]

One more question, is domain zoo even more suseptable to wasteland than normal zoo? Or does one simply get Bob out and play through wastelands on their black sources?

I think this depends on a lot of factors. In a vacuum, the difference is still debatable for the reason you mentioned. However, I think there is variation in normal builds and even playstyle; for instance, the tendency to fetch basics, or if playing fireblast (and therefore need more mountains aka more nonbasics in the long run). So it is hard to say how susceptible either deck is to wasteland because small variations (such as running library, running a lot of lightning helix and other multicolored spells, etc.) can have a significant impact on that equation.

[umbowta]

Also, from personal experience, having 10`-12 burn spells is better than not. I scrubbed out of a ~60 man tournament, mostly do to poor play, but I often found myself wishing I had another set of burn in the deck to finish off. I lost three matches with opps under 6 life, wishing I had chain lightning or fireblast or something for those final points.



I too prefer a little more burn but I don't like to go fully into GoyfSligh. I've been running:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 FireBlast

forever and I love it. The only exception is Helix which sees a few too many Spell Snares these days. I should probably change those to Rift Bolt.

[jandax]

To the three previous posters who answered my questions:

1) Goyf sligh is weaksauce, there are better glass cannons out there in the format.

2)I totally understand what you mean, and would look at the differences out of a vacuum rather than in a vacuum. The reason being; Goyf in a vacuum is no different from a Steppe Linx. It probably just comes down to player preference and style.

3) I hear ya on that package, although because I run a pair of libraries Id do four Helix and three Chain Lightnings, just personal preference. That Healing Salve helps a ton more often than not.

And for refference, my list isnt atypical, although I do like a little more meat though it may prove to be less than optimal

4 goyf
4 pridemage
4 kirds
4 nacatl
3 lavamancer
2 KotR
2 throctar

4 Bolt
4 Helix
4 Path
2 jitte
2 library

4 Mesa-Foothills-Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain

SB

3 Teeg/Crypt/Choke/Grudge/Shusher

Id probably cut the throctars and one ape for three Chain Lightning. If I didnt run 12 fetchlands Id leave in the throctars and add some canopies. Otherwise only practice will make perfect. Ive only played in two tournaments with this deck, 2nd place the first one and scrubbed out the second one. Definitely tighter play would have warranted better results. This isnt a deck where you turn cards sideways, sign the slip and dip.

[Sigar]

Zoo is one of the easiest decks to play in legacy. Which also explains a lot of its success.

[hungryLIKEALION]

There's a large gap between the minimum requirements to play any deck and the level someone can reach with it. Zoo, as a deck, is probably the most complicated aggro deck in Legacy, just about on par with Goblins. It's not like Goyf Sligh or Burn or Red Deck Wins where you just throw your hand at the opponent and hope for the best.

jandax is correct in his last line. This deck takes a lot more thought to pilot correctly than blue players give it credit for.

[Sigar]

lol sure. When I want to relax, I play zoo. I love the deck, but it's very easy to operate.

[jandax]

It's not like Goyf Sligh or Burn or Red Deck Wins where you just throw your hand at the opponent and hope for the best.

jandax is correct in his last line. This deck takes a lot more thought to pilot correctly than blue players give it credit for.

Damn right, Im learning that from hard knocks. I must say that Im just getting into the format with only 11 matches under my belt, as I realize it is much more manlier than gaming with Standard kids at an FMN.

Zoo, literally, has an answer for everything out there. It is like skydiving; one is going to die unless one takes the appropriate meassures to insure survival. And this thread, with its many competent posters, has done well to volumize that critical information.

I'd just like to share some of my noob ass mistakes in hopes that others can benefit. From my first tournament, I can't really recall any "Aww shit" moments, but rather times where I could have attacked better:

I had a pridemage out with a goyf against goyf CT who aslo had a goyf and active CT out, it was kinda late in the game and he was on low life where I had a cushion. As an autopilot function, I go to path his goyf and he tops into a 1cc counter. dumb. then I run my exalted Goyf right into his killing it. THEN, I crack the PM to kill his CB. I immediately regretted the decision, but rules are rules. What should have happened was that I declare attack, trigger the exalted, crack the PM to kill his CB with said trigger on the stack, and then hold the path for another blocker. I still won, but it was bad play.

At the second tournament in which I scrubbed out, my first game against some kind of UW Standstill control deck, I have a library out, she's at 4 with humility out and a Factory against my lonely Nacatl. During my Draw step I see a helix and a bolt, and since Im at 15 I pay 4 to draw both burn spells. I bolt her, she FoWs going to 3. Here is where I fucked up big time. I helix her, and she activates factory in response then STP it for 2 life.


I had 2 paths in hand with plenty of white mana open. Facefuckingpalm. I go on to attack her down to 1, then I realize my blunder and just scoop from there because it was already 40 minutes into the round and it was game one. That dumb ass misplay was the first of many that day which caused me to play at the last table.

If any folks have a premium account on SCG, a couple of new articles are a great resource: They're about following instinct and not playing on auto-pilot (or making default decisions). I highly recommend reading them if you havent, it is great insight. In the end, asking yourself why youre making a play is critical- if you know why then it is most likely the right play as all other plays are inferrior, or if you dont know why you are making the play then you should step back a minute and reconsider your options as it most likely isnt the optimal play.

Again, Zoo isn't a deck for beginners, yet is a great deck with which to start in this format. It is a science, and as the old addage goes "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer", know the deck you have, but know the format even better as it will most likely decide your correct line of play.

[jandax]

lol sure. When I want to relax, I play zoo. I love the deck, but it's very easy to operate.

In that case, i want your DCI number so that I can check how far above 2000 your Legacy rating is.

[Sigar]

Are you kidding me? My eternal rating has nothing to do with zoo being an easy deck to pilot. It's not beyond 2000 btw.

You just said that you're not a great magic player, so zoo is obviously a great way to get started, since the reaction pattern is very linear.

It's like back in pre M10 if you knew anything about magic, you would sac Mogg Fanatic with combat damage on stack almost every time. You actually had to make a decision, but it was very easy to make since 99% of the time, the same play was the right one.

That's how I feel about zoo. There's decisions to make, but the right play is often the same as in the last game and the one before that. It's not like you go turn 1 chain lightning to face, "ooops!".

[HAVE HEART]

The reason why Zoo is "easy" to play is because the mistakes a person can make with it are not game-losers. If a person makes a mistake with Goblins, it is very hard to come back, which is the case for a lot of aggressive decks. With Zoo, when a person makes a mistake, it is much easier to come back from it. Of course, Tarmogoyf is a big reason why in both of these cases, and in general why a lot of decks are more forgiving now.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I can't believe anyone would say that Zoo is hard to operate. People just assume that because you turn creatures sideways and burn that it's easy. That kinda irritates me.

I have the deck down to a science pretty much from all the playing I've done with it, and it comes down to a few things.

Fetching- Fetching wrong will cost you the game, and making sure to slow yourself down when needed is a good play when it mean the game. Two weeks ago i played against mono red Goblins and he blew me out game two with Blood Moon. I fetched basics game three not out of necessity, but out of fear. He ended the game with 3 Blood Moon in his hand.

Baiting- I love playing against bk's who run Daze, and then throwing that turn one Kird Ape out there. They have to stop and think of whether to Daze it, or save it for something else. Then turn two i drop a Nacatl. Baiting removal is key too. If you're riding something to a fast enough victory, then save some cards in your hand to recover if you need to. EE@1 resets your board well enough. I had a game the last time i played Zoo where i was just winning off of double Kird Ape because i knew he had the Deed, and he also wasn't applying any pressure. He blew up my board, then i dropped Grim and Goyf and went to town.

Mulligan- I highly suggest a mulligan to the "Too much burn" hand, or the "just goyf hand". Goyf is amazing, but I've had too many games where I've tried to just win off of 3 goyfs, and then they never grow over a 2/3 over the course of a game. He is pretty mediocre early, and i say this with love because i know he can go to a 4/5 turn 2 some games. I want my Nacatl, or my Pridemage, WITH burn backup. Keep land heavy hands depending on the matchup as well. I often find myself keeping 4 landers against Tempo Thresh and Eva Green, because half their strategy is void if you keep laying lands. Knight of the Reliquary shines here as well.

Idk if this has helped anyone at all. But this is the thought process i take when playing Zoo. haha:laugh:

Edit: @Sigar: Turn one Chain Lightning coming from Zoo is a terrible play. Please quit talking.

[jandax]

Are you kidding me? My eternal rating has nothing to do with zoo being an easy deck to pilot. It's not beyond 2000 btw.

You just said that you're not a great magic player, so zoo is obviously a great way to get started, since the reaction pattern is very linear.

It's like back in pre M10 if you knew anything about magic, you would sac Mogg Fanatic with combat damage on stack almost every time. You actually had to make a decision, but it was very easy to make since 99% of the time, the same play was the right one.

That's how I feel about zoo. There's decisions to make, but the right play is often the same as in the last game and the one before that. It's not like you go turn 1 chain lightning to face, "ooops!".

I don't think admitting mistakes makes one a bad magic player, bad players dont admit mistakes but rather cover them up. I said that I made a few bone headed plays and shared them in hopes that others could relate and hopefully improve their game.

Everyone has their own opinion, and Im not knocking yours at all. Even with my limited exerience with Zoo in the Legacy format, I can tell it isn't a beginner's deck. What I meant by saying that it was a great deck for newbies to the format was that while the concept is easier to grasp than, say, CT or Goblins or what have you, the deck itself is not as linear as it appears. Thus, it is not as easy to play to victory.

It isn't as linear as Ichorid, for example, where Ichorid is probably the most linear deck in the format. With Ichorid (which I also have sleeved up), the vast majority of your wins come from one way: a Zombie army. the really only other way to win is recurring Ichorids for consecutive attacks, and outside of those two paths, youre already dead. But that is all in another thread.

Zoo isn't very linear as its utility creatures and spells main deck serve multiple functions. Burn can go to the face, or to clear blockers, or to kill one of your dudes to remove opp's Bridges, or to force the ability of a creature it targets. Goyfs often become walls when opposing goys are out, KotR pumps herself and fixes mana, Pridemage can kill a myriad of troublesom artifacts and enchantments. To avoid a rant, all the spells in Zoo can and do perform more than one function. And that simply isn't linear, in my own opinion.

Therefore, learning which function a spell has to perform for maximum effect is a lot deeper than playing burn or Goyfsligh. Those decks just act, where Zoo is able and sometimes forced to reacte in order to survive.

edit@ LB: Did you mean to say that it irks you when people say that Zoo is "easy" to play?

[Otter]

edit: @Sigar: Turn one Chain Lightning coming from Zoo is a terrible play. Please quit talking.

His point was that it's an obviously terrible play. While Zoo has subtleties and nuances that take skill to maneuver with, the other half of the reality of the deck is that it's variations on the, "Drop critters and clear the way for them till they go the distance" plan. While a great player can get more out of the deck than a midskill player, the basic gameplan is consistent and powerful enough that midskill players can still rack up a ton of wins with it. It's not like you're ever going to make a screwup of Chaining someone to the face on turn one instead of playing your dude, that just doesn't happen. While I think he's underestimating the fine points of Zoo that really make the deck great, he's also right that it takes a real bad player to really screw up Zoo plays.

If I was going to bring one of my standard-playing friends to a legacy tournament and hand them a deck, you'd better believe that I would let them borrow Zoo before I'd let them borrow Countertop. That doesn't mean Zoo takes no skill, but the threshold of knowledge about the format to at least be a contender is lower than a lot of other decks. I've seen plenty of bad Zoo pilots and they do make me cringe as they miss things and throw away games, but they do win their fair share of games too. *shrug* I think there's merit to both sides, Zoo is more "pick up and play" than a lot of decks, but it's also stupid to think it's an autopilot deck.

EDIT -- For what it's worth, one of the guys I test with is an awful Zoo player. I experience plenty of this first-hand.

[jandax]

His point was that it's an obviously terrible play. While Zoo has subtleties and nuances that take skill to maneuver with, the other half of the reality of the deck is that it's variations on the, "Drop critters and clear the way for them till they go the distance" plan. While a great player can get more out of the deck than a midskill player, the basic gameplan is consistent and powerful enough that midskill players can still rack up a ton of wins with it. What he was saying was that it's not like you're ever going to make a screwup of Chaining someone to the face on turn one, that just doesn't happen. While I think he's underestimating the fine points of Zoo that really make the deck great, he's also right that it takes a real bad player to really screw up Zoo plays.


sigar's point seemed to be more that the deck has an autopilot function, and burning face on turn one isn't on the same level as walking your game winning creature into a bigger threat.

LB's statement, from what I gathered, is that if you play Chain Lightning on Turn 1, you should have mulliganed. CL is no first turn play. We can repeat time and time again the ideal play given a situation, but that is always in a vacuum. Real discussion comes from real world context.

All that said, this isn't the RNC, we don't need to sling insults and weighted opinion to be right. LB has more experience with most when it comes to this deck and I'll hang on his every word because it comes from that experience. The fact of the matter is that this deck does indeed not play itself, and that only skill will warrant success.

I'll call myself out here too, I took a good deck and fucked up. But realize that all our hindsight is 20/20. In the moment, in the match, with people watching or clocks ticking, things aren't always so obvious. DCI points to the player who can work through those problems game after game.

edit: i appologize if I wrongly interpretted any of those posters' statements

[Tacosnape]

Okay, seriously? Zoo is easier to play than any other tier 1-2 deck in the format. There's obviously lots of mistakes/correct plays you can avoid/make, as is true with any deck. Fetching wrong costs you games with any deck. Knowing when to and when not to attack wins/loses matches. Experience does help. Etc. Blah Blah.

This said, compared to just about every other deck in the DTB and most in the established, Zoo is easy as shit to pilot.

[jandax]

But the over all point is: It is easy as shit to play, but more difficult to master. oil and water.

[Valtrix]

That's horrible logic. Everything is "more difficult" to master. The issue here is that some people get offended by pointing out that zoo is an easy deck to play, so they feel the need to point out that there are some subtleties to playing. Which is valid, but those subtleties will be present in any deck one plays, so it's not like it's something specific to zoo. I'm not really sure what is being argued here anymore.

Anyway, something more interesting and productive:

Baiting- I love playing against bk's who run Daze, and then throwing that turn one Kird Ape out there. They have to stop and think of whether to Daze it, or save it for something else. Then turn two i drop a Nacatl..

I disagree that you might always want to follow this play when facing daze. Each method has pros and cons:

Playing kid ape first means that they might not daze it. If they do daze it, well you gained tempo, and they used a daze on your worst spell. However, if they don't daze it, then you don't gain that tempo. Sure, your kird ape and nacatl are safe, but that tempo can be very important against decks running blue.

If you play nacatl first, then they use daze on a good spell. However, you're pretty much forcing them to use up a daze. This means that you almost certainly gain tempo, which I find to be very useful for this deck. It also means that if you have a 2-cost creature then it's probably safe.

So, my question then, is in what scenarios (As in, deck playing against, specific cards in hand, etc.) might follow for each strategy? Hopefully this situation can start a worthwhile discussion.

[Volt]

Okay, seriously? Zoo is easier to play than any other tier 1-2 deck in the format. There's obviously lots of mistakes/correct plays you can avoid/make, as is true with any deck. Fetching wrong costs you games with any deck. Knowing when to and when not to attack wins/loses matches. Experience does help. Etc. Blah Blah.

This said, compared to just about every other deck in the DTB and most in the established, Zoo is easy as shit to pilot.

+1

[jandax]

That's horrible logic. Everything is "more difficult" to master. The issue here is that some people get offended by pointing out that zoo is an easy deck to play, so they feel the need to point out that there are some subtleties to playing. Which is valid, but those subtleties will be present in any deck one plays, so it's not like it's something specific to zoo. I'm not really sure what is being argued here anymore.


What I meant was that of all the Established decks and DTB, Zoo is probably the most "plug n play" one there is. However, like every other deck it takes time and talent to master. Where all the other decks, pretty much, require some degree of mastery in order to be successful. I agree with what you said though, the other points as well

[Gibsonmac]

Okay, seriously? Zoo is easier to play than any other tier 1-2 deck in the format. There's obviously lots of mistakes/correct plays you can avoid/make, as is true with any deck. Fetching wrong costs you games with any deck. Knowing when to and when not to attack wins/loses matches. Experience does help. Etc. Blah Blah.

This said, compared to just about every other deck in the DTB and most in the established, Zoo is easy as shit to pilot.

pretty much every straight up aggro deck is like that

[Sigar]

@people disagreeing with me: I'm still laughing. Please stop thinking what I said was a personal attack on you. I don't know you, and I couldn't care less if you think playing zoo makes you jedi masters.

I hope the post of someone with a lot more replies than I (Tacosnape) makes you realize that I am right ;D

Stop being so sensitive, it's a deck, not your kid.

[Rizso]

Was thinking of that build with The Noble Hierarchs and planeswalkers. Thinking of an other 4cc dropp could be Bloodbraid Elf. Maybe in danger of cool things, but cascading into any creature or burn spell makes it pretty mana effective creature thats pretty good offensive of 3 power and haste.

[Avier]

Hey guys. So I'm piloting Merfolk and trying to get a leg up in the match. What do you not want to see? My sb plan is to bring in Submerge and (maybe?) back to basics? Is that a viable one? Lavamancer seems to be a big problem for me in testing, are you trying to resolve him against Merfolk?

Thanks guys.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Was thinking of that build with The Noble Hierarchs and planeswalkers. Thinking of an other 4cc dropp could be Bloodbraid Elf. Maybe in danger of cool things, but cascading into any creature or burn spell makes it pretty mana effective creature thats pretty good offensive of 3 power and haste.

Since that was my build, I'll respond. Bloodbraid Elf, while cool, would be less effective than playing planeswalkers in the 4cc slot since he has a pretty good chance of netting you another hierarch (which at that point is just kinda weak) or a dead PTE or something, whereas Planeswalkers give you consistent card advantage and are pretty much game breaking.

But that's really hardly even worth discussing, since I don't think a build like that is viable in any but the most combo-devoid of metas (like mine was luckily enough last week.)


Hey guys. So I'm piloting Merfolk and trying to get a leg up in the match.Good luck.
What do you not want to see?Stifle on Fetchland is the most annoying thing you have. Chaining lords with counters to block incoming removal is good.
My sb plan is to bring in Submerge and (maybe?) back to basics? Is that a viable one?Submerge is very good, and back to basics can surprise someone g2 if they don't know you have it, but it's not the best answer, particularly since they have pridemage. Submerge, on the other hand, is pretty powerful.
Lavamancer seems to be a big problem for me in testing, are you trying to resolve him against Merfolk?... Yes.


Thanks guys.You're welcome, but it's really a rough matchup for you. Especially mono-blue. You could pack tons of hate and still lose just because zoo's cards are very well suited to beat merfolk's.

You may want to try mind harness or threads of disloyalty, though both tend to be not much more than a speedbump when the enemy has a qasali pridemage or no goyf in play. If you're taking a wild nacatl or kird ape it's pretty much pointless. Unanswered on a goyf, though, and they have the potential to be pretty powerful.

All I'm saying in regards to this argument is that playing answers is not more difficult than playing threats, and I don't know how that misconception got started. Playing answers may involve more stress, but it is no harder to say "FoW pitching stifle" than it is to say "Taiga, Nacatl." And anyone who thinks it is is being suckered in by classic blue elitism.

[Tacosnape]

Hey guys. So I'm piloting Merfolk and trying to get a leg up in the match. What do you not want to see? My sb plan is to bring in Submerge and (maybe?) back to basics? Is that a viable one? Lavamancer seems to be a big problem for me in testing, are you trying to resolve him against Merfolk?

Thanks guys.

This is a somewhat intelligent way to post, as you'll probably get better answers here than in the Merfolk forum. I play both regularly, though I'm probably better with Merfolk than Zoo.

The match is comparable to Goblins against Storm Combo. If you're Goblins, you have four approaches to Storm Combo:

1. Don't board for it at all and just lose.
2. Board for it a little and hope to get lucky when you play it.
3. Overboard for it and risk damaging your other matchups.
4. Don't play Goblins.

You can pretty much sub out Merfolk for Goblins and Zoo for Storm Combo and these statements are still true. And none of these are particularly wonderful strategies.

Large combinations of Misdirection, Submerge, Threads, Jitte, Stifle, and Blasts are generally what I don't want to see as Zoo. Merfolk doesn't have any specific card I'm terrified of, but if they have 8-10 broad-ranged pretty good cards against me, it can be a tough fight. So I don't think it's so much what cards they board in against me as how many.

[Darkinsanity]

Hi I've been wanting to get into this format for quite awhile, and while I would like to play Countertop, just because it sounds like a cool deck, or combo(ANT); it doesn't seem like a very good place for a new player to start.

So since I do have quite a few of the Fetches for this deck already. and one of the main cards which is Tarmogoyf. I figured I would build this deck. And it looks like a lot of fun. I would just have to work on the duals, which will be painful because I have none, but I can probably manage. I have read through this entire thread and what I am considering for my deck is as follows.

I don't know about those two FoD slots, but I'm still testing them out. I figure if I don't like them they can possibly become another land, or finish out my Chain Lightning, or Lightning Helix slots.

That brings up another question. Is running nine fetch lands enough with KotR? I don't know how much I like Horizon Canopy so I might consider another fetch over one of them as well.

Lands

2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa

Creatures

2 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl

Non-creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The other thing I have a question about would be for sideboarding options. If I play this thing in a tournament I would expect to see alot of Countertop, and Land still I think.

So I'm thinking
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ancient Grudge
???
???

I'm not sure what the others could be, but I thought of Pyrostatic Pillar, but I'm not sure I like that card much.

But anyways suggestions for the deck it's self and or sideboard would be much appreciated. Thanks

[gamegeek2]

Hey guys. So I'm piloting Merfolk and trying to get a leg up in the match. What do you not want to see? My sb plan is to bring in Submerge and (maybe?) back to basics? Is that a viable one? Lavamancer seems to be a big problem for me in testing, are you trying to resolve him against Merfolk?

Thanks guys.

I'd suggest starting your sideboard with these 10 cards:

4 Submerge
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Hydroblast

Hydroblast is the only singleminded Zoo hate card among these. Submerge and Threads are both useful against any deck packing Goyf (particularly CounterTop variants playing Bob)

[Eldamion]

Hi Guys,

like Stephen Menendian mentioned in his last article about the current metagame in Legacy, Zoo needs some graveyardhate in the board for its weaker matchups like Loam.

I like to know which kind of graveyardgate you prefer?
I lost my last round in a bigger tournament against Loam finishing 7th, just outside the price ranks. Sure, in the second game I kept an 2 land hand, which seems fine to me and was horrible srewed after an early wasteland.

So, my lists seems fine, finishing 3-1-1, but my feeling about the Loammachup 30% - 70%.

One of my mistakes was, that I had no GY-hate in my board, so what you prefer:

Tormods Crypt: Cheep, no Mana needed?
Relic of Progenistus: 2Mana needed at max., but with the option of drawing extra cards.
The new black trap:Its not easy to catch the LftL with it, but the suprise factor seems to be nice.
Leyline of the Void: only great at starting hands, so no option in my eyes.

Has anyone experiences in tournaments with the trap?

My decklist was similar to this one (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30282), which is an older list of me.

[kkoie]

I would not go with trap. Unless you have black mana available (and most good decks have zero black) you are stuck only being able to play it when its trap condition occures. I would personally recommend a mix of crypts and relics. Say 2 of each.

[Rizso]

I like the Relics the most.

[b4r0n]

I've been running a 2/2 split between Crypt and Ravenous Trap. I don't want to spend mana on grave hate, since that slows me down in addition to slowing down my opponent. Crypt is a little bit better than Rav Trap, but Rav Trap is much more difficult for opponents to play around since it comes out of nowhere. Both are really good against Ichorid and Loam, and Trap always gets cast for free in those matchups when you need it.

[Fuzzy]

Against Loam, I would sugest you Price of Progress.

[Nelis]

I don't want to spend mana on grave hate, since that slows me down in addition to slowing down my opponent. it.

My thoughts exactly and I also don't want to get rid of my own graveyard because of Goyf and Lavamancer. So I prefer Crypts.

But I do wonder if I'm right about this one. Against which decks do we want to remove both graveyards and against which ones only theirs is enough? I really can't think of any decks specifically.

[gravemind123]

Relic seems bad given that many lists run 4 Lavamancer, 4 Goyf and 2-4 Knight of the Reliquary. You pretty much neuter 10-12 of your creatures by removing your own graveyard. I can't really think of any matchup that is made worse by having a gravyard, so I would use Crypt over Relic as graveyard hate, and as mentioned it also doesn't tie up your mana.

[Gibsonmac]

relic is trash!! you fuck your grimms, goyfs, knights if you run them... aka. relic is crap

[jandax]

Some people are stuck on its cantrip. Crypt is strictly better here because it affects just your opp, not your toolbox

[Valtrix]

The cantrip is nice, but crypt is better primarily because of tempo. It allows you to be aggressive, while still disrupting, which is what this deck needs most. Also in some matchups (primarily aggro loam), you can still get it down through a chalice. Sure it doesn't hurt your goyfs, mancers, or knights, but that's not our primary concern. In matchups where we need graveyard hate, we need it quickly.

And yes this is mildy redundant, but I think people overlook the tempo aspect which makes it the better choice.

[Cesarius]

Sup. I'm in the process of building Zoo (kill him) at the moment. I'm having the following list in mind:

Creatures:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library

Lands:
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroblast
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip

Also, is it worth to replace Kird Ape with Steppe Lynx? Fetching once just seems ridiculously good with Steppe Lynx, especially since it will do double the damage that Kird Ape would do in 1 turn.
And oh yeah, thoughts about my sideboard?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

My suggestion would be to cut Fireblast because it's just terrible. Ape is better than Lynx as well. Some games you don't draw fetches, and then you have an off color 0/1. This doesn't happen often, but this deck has done all sorts of things to me so i think this stuff out. Ape is just better.

Also jump the land count up, ALOT. You don't have library to get land, or Canopy to filter through your deck. I would personally never run below 21 lands myself. It helps to get lands, and helps to fight against a format defining card, Wasteland.

My opinion on the board is this, combo hate it pointless. In all the games I've brought stuff in against any combo deck, a turn two hate bear just isn't enough, then they bounce it or something. Pillar can be played through. Just hope to get lucky, even with sideboard cards.

On another note!! A playset of foil Arid Mesas have come into my possession from a friend of mine. Also i picked up some English Legends Chain Lightnings the other day leaving the remaining pimped cards at, 2 Sylvan Library which will be easy to acquire, and 2 foil Lavamancer but not the DCI bc he sucks.

[hungryLIKEALION]

-2 fireblast +2 sylvan library.

Trust me, you'll be glad you did.

Edit//Oh shit, I didn't even realize how few lands you're playing, but god loxy is right. If you're gonna play a three drop, you need to play at least 20 lands, and 21 is better.

Is english legends really the pinnacle of pimping chain lightnings? Cuz I'm pretty sure that's what my chains are...

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

-2 fireblast +2 sylvan library.

Trust me, you'll be glad you did.

Edit//Oh shit, I didn't even realize how few lands you're playing, but god loxy is right. If you're gonna play a three drop, you need to play at least 20 lands, and 21 is better.

Is english legends really the pinnacle of pimping chain lightnings? Cuz I'm pretty sure that's what my chains are...

I'm glad we agree on this haha.

But yeah English Legends is the pimpest they can get unfortunately. Same for Sylvan Library. I don't do foreign cards because i like to read mine. Plus English Legends is awesome. It's hard to find original foil Lavamancers, and when i do theyre expensive as hell. I'm just happy to be almost finished. I started this in Chicago when i traded for some foil Nacatl. Ahh yes.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I haven't bothered to pimp my deck at all, it's already worth $700+ so I figure that's enough of a money sink as is o.o; But I do have one foil lavamancer, though I don't actually use it since I have three normal and prefer all the copies of any card I'm using to be the same.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I haven't bothered to pimp my deck at all, it's already worth $700+ so I figure that's enough of a money sink as is o.o; But I do have one foil lavamancer, though I don't actually use it since I have three normal and prefer all the copies of any card I'm using to be the same.

I've just always wanted to pimp a deck out, and I've loved Zoo since i began Magic, i figured it would be the right place to start. Plus it's not as expensive as it looks. My and my friends have all the cardpool we would ever want so the next step is to pimp things anyway.

One thing i won't foil out is prolly Goyf. 95 is too dumb a price for a card. Jitte was the most expensive and it was only 45. Worse case if I'm out of stuff to buy I'll save up but even then it looks unlikely.

[Cesarius]

Lecough I'm an idiot, I forgot to include 2 Sylvan Library in my list. Is running 19 lands really not enough? Even though I'm only playing 2 3cc main, and 2 3cc in my sideboard?

[hungryLIKEALION]

19 is just asking to be constantly mana screwed and get blown out by wasteland. If you're running kotr (or thoctar) you need to be able to cast it through wastelands, and 19 is not enough lands to do that. You're much better off just cutting 2 burn spells for 2 horizon canopies or more duals/fetches. I'd cut two chains personally, but some people like those more than helix. I don't.

[bulaxas]

hi dudes check this out

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

1 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast

2 Sylvan Library

1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

sideboard:

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Price of Progress

what you all think, thats the list im thinking to sleeve up to madrid

suggestions...thanxs

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@bulaxas: More Price of Progress in the board. It's too good right now to not run. All those land decks are out there, plus Aggro Loam randomly did well so expect it.

Maybe try and make some room for MD Jitte? It seems good right now in almost every matchup. I don't like Fireblast obviously so perhaps cut those and the random PoP?

The 2/2 split of Relic/Crypt in the SB seems good too. Goodluck.

[Darkinsanity]

Hey guys. I made a post on the other page and I've still been working on the list. I'm only running 20 lands and wondering what to cut to make 21. I feel pretty good at 20, but I've seen all you have had to say on 21 lands.

Any ideas what to cut out? I don't want to cut anymore chain lightnings. Having at least a few burn spells to burn out the opponent sometimes is nice, though I don't want to play Goyf Sligh exactly. Also I'm not sure how much I like Grim Lavamancer, if you could use his effect more than once instead of tapping him he would be that much more awesome.

I suppose I could possibly cut a kird ape.

Lands

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa

20

Creatures

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
2 Knight of the Reliquary


23

Non-creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

17

Thanks for the help!

[hungryLIKEALION]

-2 Kird Ape +1 Figure +1 Horizon Canopy is my exact list ;p

[DCTopTeam]

Zoo made the Finals in SCG LAX. Vs Enchantress I think. They split. I would like to see the decklist. This is the meta breakdown


ANT – 12
Goblins – 11
Aggro Loam – 8
Fish – 8
Naya Zoo – 7
Belcher Combo – 6
Dredge – 6
NO Bant – 6
Threshold – 6
StifleNaught – 5
Faeries – 4
Red Deck Wins – 4
38 Land – 3
B/G Rock – 3
Bant – 3
Countertop – 3
Dragon Stompy – 3
Esper Control – 3
Mono Black Control – 3
Reanimator – 3
Survival – 3
Other – 32

[DCTopTeam]

Heres the 2nd place Zoo at SCG LAX

Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Figure Of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Price Of Progress
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg

[mmmetaphor]

Heres the 2nd place Zoo at SCG LAX

Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Figure Of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Price Of Progress
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg


Seems pretty standard but I'm a little surprised by the singleton PoP in the SB. Also, alot of graveyard hate in the SB.. More and more lists seem to be favoring Knight over Thoctar.

[Irish_Mafia]

Zoo made the Finals in SCG LAX. Vs Enchantress I think. They split. I would like to see the decklist. This is the meta breakdown

Here is the list he played:

Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Figure Of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Price Of Progress
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg


And to the guy who was thinking of cutting Lavamancer, I would strongly recommend not too. He is just so good late game. He helps you not run out of steam

[chokin]

And Lavamancer is nuts against Merfolk and other Tribal Aggro.

I tried Steppe Lynx. I hated it by the way. I like Knight over Thoctar over Figure of Destiny, but I'll try him out again soon.

[IrishLegend]

Hi everyone I've been reading this forum for some time now and I built a zoo deck of my own. I'm looking for some feedback on the deck please.

1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Progress
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pyroclasm

Ive tested the deck a little and feel maybe I should take out 2 chain lighting and add 1 Arid Mesa and another knight or Wolly.

[DCTopTeam]

Hi everyone I've been reading this forum for some time now and I built a zoo deck of my own. I'm looking for some feedback on the deck please.

1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Progress
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pyroclasm

Ive tested the deck a little and feel maybe I should take out 2 chain lighting and add 1 Arid Mesa and another knight or Wolly.

I have had games where I had 2 Helixes in my opening hand and trust me they are not good. I cut mine to two.

[Sure]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/18564.html

Do not cut lavamancers, they are just too good against early tarmogoyfs and late game against the face.



4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

1 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast

2 Sylvan Library

Lands

I decided to drop after going 3-2 (Charbelched turn one twice in a row) because I fell asleep after the next round. >.<

The only thing I would do is cut the chain lightning for another KoTR. So many 2 drops makes you weak to spellsnare when you're playing around daze.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I have had games where I had 2 Helixes in my opening hand and trust me they are not good. I cut mine to two.

If you have a problem with drawing two helixes you're doing it wrong.

[SaturdayKnight]

Hey everybody. I have been building and playing my zoo version for a couple months now. I have just gotten back into competitive magic after several years of not playing. I have had a sligh deck for as long as I've played magic, so I was immediately drawn to zoo on the list of Decks To Beat. However, the more I play it, the more it continues to change away from "the standard" zoo's that are placing in all the legacy opens and large competitive meta's at local tournaments. I have done very well with my build at local tournies, but I am now starting to rethink the strategy that my deck went. Before, the deck was simple like the majority of the decklists on this thread. Now, it has become a highly cohesive, complicated deck with all its card interactions. here is the decklist:

----- Creatures (19) -----
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

----- Spells (18) -----
4 Crop Rotation
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Regrowth

----- Enchantments (2) ------
2 Sylvan Library

----- Lands (19) -----
3 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

----- Sideboard -----
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Chain Lightning
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt


I know I am running on the low end of the creature scale with only 19 but i feel the number is perfect so let me attempt to explain my choices.

Crop Rotation
Yes I am using a whole 4 slot for this card. It not only pumps up KotR, Nimble, Steppe, but it also thins out the deck a lot. Removing KotR from having to tap to do it's ability the first turn speeds up the clock a lot on your opponents. Noone likes seing KotR go +2/+2 without even tapping.

Knight of the Reliquary
I chose Knight as my big fatty now. I used to have Woolly Thoctar when the deck was simpler, but now there is far too much synergy to use him over KotR.

Steppe Lynx
Why would I ever choose this card over Grim Lavamancer? one reason, he can and often IS bigger than Tarmogoyfs. Fetch, Land, Crop Rotation, Fetch, Land = +8/+8 per Lynx. That is why there is more or less a 50/50 split between fetch and basic lands so I can get +4/+4 at least every turn he is out. I also don't like how Grim eats my graveyard because it ruins the KotR and regrowth opportunities.

Nimble Mongoose
With Fetches, Crop Rotation, Bolts, and Helix's the graveyard fills up quite quickly. He is by far better than kird ape late game and he's not THAT far behind him early game with his ability.

Regrowth
The oppurtunity to grab any card back has been awesome. With such a low creature count (19) these can be used to up that to 21. OR it can be used when i need to grab a Crop rotation back to give lynx's +4/+4 and KotR another +2/+2 as Combat damage is being dealt. Or it can be straight up to grab another fetch to get one more land too.

Sylvan Library
With Fetches, crop rotation, and KotR shuffling the library. Grabbing whatever I need is never a problem. This really shouldn't even be an argument for any zoo deck.

I know the deck isn't perfect and not everyone will like it, but I hope that by showing my deck list and explaining my card choice I have helped moved this discussion along by bringing in a new perspective!

[Eldamion]

With the rise of all the Loam Deck during the last couple of weeks, Jötun Grunt is the creature of our choice.

Smmenen mentioned it in his new list, Maindeck and Sideboard, an Alix Hatfield, who finished 9th in a 270 player event here in germany, due to a bad draw in the last round, hat jötun grunt in his sideboard.

Is it time to get him beat in our lists, maybe als a two-of instead of.....?

Would be nice to here your thinkings.
I my eyes, the worst creature in my deck is the kird ape, may I will have to cut him. My basic list ones again can you find here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30282).

[Fuzzy]

Steppe Lynx
Why would I ever choose this card over Grim Lavamancer? one reason, he can and often IS bigger than Tarmogoyfs. Fetch, Land, Crop Rotation, Fetch, Land = +8/+8 per Lynx. That is why there is more or less a 50/50 split between fetch and basic lands so I can get +4/+4 at least every turn he is out. I also don't like how Grim eats my graveyard because it ruins the KotR and regrowth opportunities.


In this case, why not run Plated Geopede and Vineslasher Kudzu?

[Curby]

Why not use Goyf over Mongoose? Mongoose costs 1 but will only be a 1/1 if dropped early. What's the average turn that you get Threshold? Later in the game, you can probably afford to pay a colorless more. With Zoo's increasing popularity, I anticipate seeing more sweeper spells being tossed around, and Mongoose's ass of 3 doesn't save it from Flamebreak nor Firespout.

@Grunt: How would you design around him maindeck? We want lands and a variety of cards in the yard for Knight and Goyf, and extras are often eaten up by Lavamancer already. Lavamancers, Goyfs, Knights, and Grunts may give us 12-14 graveyard-dependent cards, which turns our deck into the sort of thing that Grunts are used against and not in. I certainly acknowledge that he's good at getting rid of their graveyard while beating down, but it's getting a bit strained...

[DCTopTeam]

With the rise of all the Loam Deck during the last couple of weeks, Jötun Grunt is the creature of our choice.

Smmenen mentioned it in his new list, Maindeck and Sideboard, an Alix Hatfield, who finished 9th in a 270 player event here in germany, due to a bad draw in the last round, hat jötun grunt in his sideboard.

Is it time to get him beat in our lists, maybe als a two-of instead of.....?

Would be nice to here your thinkings.
I my eyes, the worst creature in my deck is the kird ape, may I will have to cut him. My basic list ones again can you find here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30282).

The problem is that Grunt hits our Goyfs, Reliquaries and Mancers. The way to combat Loam, the way I see it, is graveyard hate Relics and Tormods.

[SaturdayKnight]

In this case, why not run Plated Geopede and Vineslasher Kudzu?

I would say no to the Plated Geopede simply because it is a 2 drop instead of a 1, but Vinelasher Kudzu might be a possibility ... but I think 12, 1CC creatures are key to this deck to ensure a first turn drop. zoo never wants to give up first turn without dropping a creature, no?



@Grunt: How would you design around him maindeck? We want lands and a variety of cards in the yard for Knight and Goyf, and extras are often eaten up by Lavamancer already. Lavamancers, Goyfs, Knights, and Grunts may give us 12-14 graveyard-dependent cards, which turns our deck into the sort of thing that Grunts are used against and not in. I certainly acknowledge that he's good at getting rid of their graveyard while beating down, but it's getting a bit strained...

my old version ran grunts straight instead of Goyf and ran Thoctar instead of KotR... it worked out, but was still hard to keep the grunt alive for most matchups early in the game. often times, the grunt ended up sitting in my hand to do unavailable resources

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

If you have a problem with drawing two helixes you're doing it wrong.

+1

This card is just insane in today's meta.

[mackaber]

Seeing that Jamie Hatfiled ran Lynxes over Kird Apes at Hanau is there any chance that people here will start to revise their opinion on the card and actually test it?

[spirit of the wretch]

They sure worked for me (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16038), but then again I don't want go get draw into that pointless argument again, whether I was playing Zoo, or GoyfSligh... hence I called the deck cats.
They are pretty swingy, but also have a completely unmatched damage potential, enabling third turn kills and therefore highly improving you combo MU. Granted, you have to pay much more attention to your landdrops, when and what to fetch, etc and they're dead draws in the midgame.
On the other hand, they help you to never even reach the midgame. Furthermore after beeing hit once, your oponent is most likely to point his removal on them, so they draw fire from your other critters. In my opinion, their benefits outweight thier weaknesses.

[DCTopTeam]

If you have a problem with drawing two helixes you're doing it wrong.

Id rather cast another 1cc and spot-remove an opponents threat than cast a 2cc Helix early in the game. And two Helixes in your opening screws things even more.

[GUnit]

Steppe Lynx seems much better than Kird Ape unless you're planning for plenty of blocking and/or attrition. I think the more agressive your stance is in the metagame, the better the lynx is. I'm willing to risk having my 1-drop be mediocre once in a while if it means adding the ability to essentially steal games and to, more than likely, increase your clock on average. 2/3's for 1 are so blase; bring on the 1 mana erhnam djinns!

[Nelis]

Id rather cast another 1cc and spot-remove an opponents threat than cast a 2cc Helix early in the game. And two Helixes in your opening screws things even more.

Ever heard of the mulligan rule? Come on, if you've lost because you had 2 Helixes in your opening hand then you shouldn't have kept that hand. There's no reason not to run some of the strongest cards just because there's a slight chance you might have 2 in your openings hand.

On the Lynx topic. I played this dude who had a Lynx version of zoo. It was very explosive but I won with my Zoo (Lightning Helix was a house here btw). I think that deck is way too suicidal. I personally am not willing to take the risk. I'd rather 'risk' getting into the midgame with the regular Zoo list.

The strength of the regular Zoo deck is that it has an answer to almost every problem you're opponent can put on the table and still be as aggressive as any other aggro deck. We have a good chance to win against almost every deck. Even ANT as long as you're smart enough to run 4 Gaddock Teeg in your SB. I find Reanimator, Aggro Loam and Dreadstill the unfavourable match ups. Other countertop decks and ANT about 50/50.

Man, do I like this deck. :laugh:

[SaturdayKnight]

On the Lynx topic. I played this dude who had a Lynx version of zoo. It was very explosive but I won with my Zoo (Lightning Helix was a house here btw).

Now when you say Lynx version. was Lynx v Kird Ape the only difference? Or did he also have some support for lynx (ie crop rotation or something of the like)?

[Nelis]

It was more of a RG sligh with splash w. It also featured Goblin Guides, the usual burn package and POP main. And Sulfuric Vortex side (which caught me with my pants down once). But that's about all I know about his list. I don't think he had any other support for lynx.

[SaturdayKnight]

I think its important to have some support for Lynx to truly be effective / game changing. Whether that is a higher amount of fetches, KotR, crop rotation, or something it doesn't matter. I was playing last night and I thought back to the original BIG disagreement in this thread ... StP vs PtE. With Lynx having variable power and with the possibility of him becoming 4/5 or 8/9, StP to a Lynx after combat phase is starting to sound like a good idea. It would have saved me a few times last night. StP'ing a lynx at 8/9 would create a possible 16 point swing versus your opponent. I don't know who would be happy to be playing against that.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Also Zoo shines in the midgame as well. It's not just an aggro deck, it's threats and spells double as midgame threats and spells as well. That's why i don't worry about getting into the midgame much at all. You still have 3/3s for 1 and 3 damage for 1 mana, plus library manipulation, plus good ole Lavamancer to feed off of your fallen allies. I just don't like Lynx because he seems too inconsistent and makes your opening hands too fetch dependent.

[troopatroop]

In my experience you must run 14-15 fetches to get consistency with Steppe Lynx, but it is possible. It gives you power at the expense of consistency, just how much in both directions you're going is what's hard to quantify. I think the ambiguity of it is what turns people off. The 1 mana Erhnam Djinn is hard to resist for me, and I still urge everyone to try it alongside Reckless Charge, which also happens to make multiples considerably less terrible.

[mackaber]

In my experience you must run 14-15 fetches in order to get consistency from Steppe Lynx, but it is possible. It gives you power at the expense of consistency, just how much in both directions you're going is what's hard to quantify. I think the ambiguity of it is what turns people off. The 1 mana Erhnam Djinn is hard to resist for me, and I still urge everyone to try it alongside Reckless Charge, which also happens to make multiples considerably less terrible.

Reckless Charge sounds nifty with lynx. I bet that makes for a hell lot of turn 3 kills. Would you mind to provide a list?

[Fuzzy]

I think its important to have some support for Lynx to truly be effective / game changing. Whether that is a higher amount of fetches, KotR, crop rotation, or something it doesn't matter. I was playing last night and I thought back to the original BIG disagreement in this thread ... StP vs PtE. With Lynx having variable power and with the possibility of him becoming 4/5 or 8/9, StP to a Lynx after combat phase is starting to sound like a good idea. It would have saved me a few times last night. StP'ing a lynx at 8/9 would create a possible 16 point swing versus your opponent. I don't know who would be happy to be playing against that.

Sounds worse than Berserk/Fling-ing the cat.

[troopatroop]

Sounds worse than Berserk/Fling-ing the cat.

There's noone saying you can't play Berserk/Fling on top of the Reckless Charges.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15730&page=2&highlight=Naya+Sligh

Page 2 of the Naya Sligh thread, with my list halfway down.

[DCTopTeam]

Ever heard of the mulligan rule? Come on, if you've lost because you had 2 Helixes in your opening hand then you shouldn't have kept that hand. There's no reason not to run some of the strongest cards just because there's a slight chance you might have 2 in your openings hand.

On the Lynx topic. I played this dude who had a Lynx version of zoo. It was very explosive but I won with my Zoo (Lightning Helix was a house here btw). I think that deck is way too suicidal. I personally am not willing to take the risk. I'd rather 'risk' getting into the midgame with the regular Zoo list.

The strength of the regular Zoo deck is that it has an answer to almost every problem you're opponent can put on the table and still be as aggressive as any other aggro deck. We have a good chance to win against almost every deck. Even ANT as long as you're smart enough to run 4 Gaddock Teeg in your SB. I find Reanimator, Aggro Loam and Dreadstill the unfavourable match ups. Other countertop decks and ANT about 50/50.

Man, do I like this deck. :laugh:

Of course any Magic player would like to minimize the chances of having to mulligan esp when youre on the play. Having less Helix(es) would definitely help with this argument. I almost always want to preserve the T1 Nacatl, T2 Ape and spot-remove-curve etc. Plus, Helix is susceptible to Spell Snare.

I had success with just 2 Helix(es) main and I can prove it. Maybe that would convince you a bit.

[Nelis]

Of course any Magic player would like to minimize the chances of having to mulligan esp when youre on the play. Having less Helix(es) would definitely help with this argument. I almost always want to preserve the T1 Nacatl, T2 Ape and spot-remove-curve etc. Plus, Helix is susceptible to Spell Snare.

I had success with just 2 Helix(es) main and I can prove it. Maybe that would convince you a bit.

I sounded a bit harsher that I intended. I know the rules of minimizing chances of mulligans. I just find Helix too important to cut. I already find that the deck has too many 1 drops (Chalice is a bitch if you don't draw that Qasali Pridemage) and I really like gaining that 3 life. But I can actually imagine going back to 3 copies but that is because I want to fit in 2 Knight of The Reliqary in my list. And I like Helix oppose to Chain Lightning vs the ANT matchup. (I hate Orim's Chant) Two I find too little.

I had (relatively) success with 4 Helixes main. I don't think you can base any success on having left out or left in 2 cards on the whole of 60 cards. Anyway, it's just one of those personal preference things I suppose. I don't want to convince you and you don't have to try to convince me. :wink:

[DCTopTeam]

I sounded a bit harsher that I intended. I know the rules of minimizing chances of mulligans. I just find Helix too important to cut. I already find that the deck has too many 1 drops (Chalice is a bitch if you don't draw that Qasali Pridemage) and I really like gaining that 3 life. But I can actually imagine going back to 3 copies but that is because I want to fit in 2 Knight of The Reliqary in my list. And I like Helix oppose to Chain Lightning vs the ANT matchup. (I hate Orim's Chant) Two I find too little.

I had (relatively) success with 4 Helixes main. I don't think you can base any success on having left out or left in 2 cards on the whole of 60 cards. Anyway, it's just one of those personal preference things I suppose. I don't want to convince you and you don't have to try to convince me. :wink:

Thats the only problem with lots of 1cc-- Chalice; but I know that I wouldnt run into it more often because our metas leaning more on aggro. Yeah, maybe 3 can do. Havent tried 3, only tried 4 and two. I might try the 3 LHs but definitely not 4 (again).

[easyrider]

Is there any real way to beat UW Landstill with Cunning Wish with this deck? I think I might just put some Sulfuric Vortexes in the sideboard and hope to resolve them and have them not die to explosives.

[Forbiddian]

Is there any real way to beat UW Landstill with Cunning Wish with this deck? I think I might just put some Sulfuric Vortexes in the sideboard and hope to resolve them and have them not die to explosives.

Cunning Wish is a horrible card that ruins your sideboard. I can't believe it sees any play in a format as fast and competitive as Legacy, There are so many combo decks that are just going to steal game 1 anyway, there's no way I'd give up boarding power for some cool tech late-game game 1. But anyway, this is about Zoo:

It really depends on the build of UW more than your build. As a control deck with a broad mana curve, they have access to a lot of bombs that will just beat you, if they're willing to sacrifice other matchups. Fortunately decks like TES, Ichorid, the mirror etc. keep them honest, but if your metagame is really Zoo-heavy or they don't care and just want to beat you, then you probably should focus on other MUs.

Sylvan Library is very important in this matchup, but they sometimes have gas you just can't win through.

Postboard you have a ton of options. A lot of people pack REBs and Teeg, those both come in no brainer (shuts off Force, EE, Planeswalkers, Humility, Moat, WoG...). Both are good board cards in general.

If you need more heavy duty answers, you can always run Choke. It's not very hard to get three mana against Landstill, and you win the game if it sticks, especially if you can catch them tapping down for something.

[easyrider]

I don't think it matters how good or bad you think the deck is (it is in fact quite good; and besides it is a lot better than nogoyf). The fact is 2-3 people play it at the weekly tournaments where I play and I would like to be able to board into something decent. Currently I have 3 Teeg, 3 Blast, and 3 Price. Also I am running 12 burn spells and 4 Lavamancers, so I should be doing better than normal Zoo builds. Most games go Wish -> Pulse -> I lose (even after boarding). I think that Sulfuric Vortex helps there.

[MULocke]

I don't think it matters how good or bad you think the deck is (it is in fact quite good; and besides it is a lot better than nogoyf). The fact is 2-3 people play it at the weekly tournaments where I play and I would like to be able to board into something decent. Currently I have 3 Teeg, 3 Blast, and 3 Price. Also I am running 12 burn spells and 4 Lavamancers, so I should be doing better than normal Zoo builds. Most games go Wish -> Pulse -> I lose (even after boarding). I think that Sulfuric Vortex helps there.

You could probably also catch them with something like blood moon. If they know you don't run wastes, they might get greedy with lands. REB is also a solid solution to anything blue. Sulfuric vortex sounds good as well.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Just draw yourself down to 4 life with sylvan library. GG pulse.

[Soldar]

Just draw yourself down to 4 life with sylvan library. GG pulse.

You should have seen the look on the face of one of my friends playing Landstill. He Wished for Pulse at some point, then was intending on playing it on my end step.

I looked at my top 3 (1 useful card, 2 lands - didn't need any of them at that point) and then paid 8. He recorded the life change, then on my end step he tapped his 3 lands, looked at the life total before he announced his spell, and then his eyes went wide. Priceless.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'm 3-0 right now at Jupiter games duel or duals... I've got some sweet SB tech to share at the end of the day, hopefully my good fortune continues.

[DCTopTeam]

I'm 3-0 right now at Jupiter games duel or duals... I've got some sweet SB tech to share at the end of the day, hopefully my good fortune continues.

Ok, I hope you dont just share the SB because I expect an extensive tournament report as well. Good luck!

[hungryLIKEALION]

Went 5-1-1 through the Swiss, won in top 8 lost in top 4 to dream halls. I'll write a report when I get home, or some time tomorrow. I'm pretty tired and have a 2 and a half hour drive home. Currently waiting on the other semi finals match so prizes can be chosen and we can go home.

[Wargoos]

Went 5-1-1 through the Swiss, won in top 8 lost in top 4 to dream halls. I'll write a report when I get home, or some time tomorrow. I'm pretty tired and gve a 2 and a shalt hour drive home. Currently waiting on the other semi finals match so prizes can be chosen and we can go home.

U're wearing a hat!
Also nice work top8'ing there.
Hope you'll write a report.

[MMogg]

I'm 3-0 right now at Jupiter games duel or duals... I've got some sweet SB tech to share at the end of the day, hopefully my good fortune continues.

Engineered Explosives?! Wow, how'd that work for you?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I picked up my English Legends Sylvan Libraries for the deck the other day. They are so hot! Only 2 more Lavamancers and the deck is complete..

I played in a recent tournament and got the wind kicked out of me. I played against combo twice with turn one kills all 4 games, then i played against Counterbalance and got my deck countered with a 2 mana Enchantment. It was pretty disheartening, but the deck is so pimp to look at now.

[sauce]

btw in case no one knows, zoo (played by tom ross) won the dallas 5k... he had gaddock teeg main and KoR all i know right now

[Akuma]

Zoo did "win", but the deciding game came down to the Lands player making a 3rd mistake that resulted in a game loss, when he had all but won. I'm not trying to discredit Tom's win, he did top 8 and played well all day, but Zoo players should definitely not see this as Zoo owning Lands deck in the SCG 5K finals.

[hungryLIKEALION]

U're wearing a hat!
Also nice work top8'ing there.
Hope you'll write a report.

One and a half hats actually, that's my ski hat combined with my visor. Thanks though ;p


Engineered Explosives?! Wow, how'd that work for you?

Amazingly. EE in the sideboard is something I've tried before, and I'm very glad I tried it again. As stated in my tournament report, I sided it in almost every round. I can't even begin to enumerate just how many tarmogoyfs, rhox war monks, and jittes I blew up with it throughout the day. A lot of people seem to think you'll end up blowing up your own shit, but really you rarely have more than 1 or 2 threats on the table at a time, so hitting their guys without hitting your own is not that difficult. And when you do both have goyfs for example, you just force them to answer your goyf before playing the EE out and acing theirs. Letting your opponent get goyf advantage and then acing them all also works pretty well. Any time the board position starts slipping away, EE is there to pull things back to your side. Especially when enemy goyfs carrying jittes are involved.

If you've never tried EE before, I highly advise you give it a shot. It's really good.

Edit//Report's up, btw. I welcome all feedback. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16101

[DCTopTeam]

btw in case no one knows, zoo (played by tom ross) won the dallas 5k... he had gaddock teeg main and KoR all i know right now

zoo in th finals is more than enough. after all, it was facing a deck it is not supposed to beat. it ran two helixes main btw.

[Nelis]

If you've never tried EE before, I highly advise you give it a shot. It's really good.


I've been wondering about that actually but never tried it out. Thanks.


zoo in th finals is more than enough. after all, it was facing a deck it is not supposed to beat. it ran two helixes main btw.

Must've been luck then. :laugh:

[DCTopTeam]

I've been wondering about that actually but never tried it out. Thanks.



Must've been luck then. :laugh:

Well, not the way you wanna win a tourney but a win is a win. Shows that Zoo is very much a DTB. I hate to admit it, but so is Loam-based decks. If not for that mistake from that kid, we'd see another Loam on top.

[MattH]

Well, not the way you wanna win a tourney but a win is a win. Shows that Zoo is very much a DTB. I hate to admit it, but so is Loam-based decks. If not for that mistake from that kid, we'd see another Loam on top.

Also back-to-back 14-year-old champions. :P

[Happy Gilmore]

Post board is much better for zoo than people think. That being said it is very surprising that he was able to do well with that sb against lands.

[malden]

If not for that mistake from that kid, we'd see another Loam on top.

I looked at Ross's build and it was good but there is an added edge he could have had in that match up...Price of Progress.

I squeezed in 2 main and will probably reset the rest of the deck and take out 2 lightning helix's for them instead. The other 2 are in the board.

At the recent Meandeck tournament here in Ohio at a side event I lent the deck to a friend and he played against Aggro Loam in the finals (another difficult matchup for zoo). Game one the board eventually was a stalemate and Loam was doing what it does. My friend was on the defense, but he hit price from the top and nuked him for 12 to win. He boarded in the rest of them and his opp started to get basics so that it would not happen again. Fortunately for my friend, digging with a library, he hit a second PoP and blew him out as well.

I read the tournament report on SCG and instead of paying the upkeep James was not paying the upkeep his turn and saccing it to gain 2 life. If Ross had PoP in there, he could have either used it in response too, or at the end of his draw to force it in before Chasm came back out, causing a complete blowout.

It makes our matchups against fish a bit weaker game one, but it has been amazing for me.

[Svenyboy]

I looked at Ross's build and it was good but there is an added edge he could have had in that match up...Price of Progress.


I want see the list of Tom Ross. Has anyone got the list or an internet adresse?
Thanks.

[Edit]: OK, I have it.

[mmmetaphor]

I want see the list of Tom Ross. Has anyone got the list or an internet adresse?
Thanks.

[Edit]: OK, I have it.

Here:


http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30809

Oops, missed your [edit]

[sauce]

ugh tom ross only won cuz the kid punted and swung at him w/ glacial chasm in play and the judges gave him game & match loss cuz it was his 3rd warning.

[yadda]

ugh tom ross only won cuz the kid punted and swung at him w/ glacial chasm in play and the judges gave him game & match loss cuz it was his 3rd warning.

we know.

[yankeedave]

Where would be the best place to discuss the Dark Zoo 14th place Anthony Avitollo deck from this weekend's SCG tourney? I quite like this build and would like to discuss it further, but don't want to start a discussion in the wrong place!

Thanks

Dave

[crow_mw]

There have been already a numerous takes on standard Zoo build splashing black for Confidant in this thread and this is a perfect place for that. Go ahead, share your thoughts with us here.

[IrishLegend]

@Hungrylikelion
congrats on your 3rd place finish. Im going to try the EE in my sidedboard.:tongue:
I have some questions for ya...
Did Jitte prove useful during your event? and Did you ever pump figure past a 2/2?

[hungryLIKEALION]

@Hungrylikelion
congrats on your 3rd place finish. Im going to try the EE in my sidedboard.:tongue:
I have some questions for ya...
Did Jitte prove useful during your event? and Did you ever pump figure past a 2/2?

Thank you. EE is very good, and definitely helped me win multiple games. You can see my tournament report here on the site if you're interested.

Jitte is always useful, and against any other aggro deck or creature based aggro control deck, it makes the game pretty much unloseable.

Figure gets pumped to 4/4 whenever I have extra mana lying around, but his true power lies in the threat of pumping him. For example, you can swing him into a Rhox War Monk or 3/4 Goyf with 3 mana up and they can't block without losing their guy. This sort of play lets you get in turn after turn for damage you'd otherwise miss out on.

Beyond this, you don't just pump him immediately, the moment you can do it. The best time to pump your figure is when your opponent has blocked with a creature that pumping will allow you to trade or save the figure, or end of their turn. I rarely, if ever, pump Figure in the attack phase when it is not blocked.

And of course, whenever you topdeck a lategame Figure, it turns into a huge bomb.

[Svenyboy]

At Saturday is a Legacy tournament and I wanted play this build:

Creature:
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

Enchantment:
2 Sylvan Library

Artifact:
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Land:
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Vexing Shusher

I think this is a classic build. Figure is a little bit special but I tested the Figure and I think it's awesome. 4 are too much but 2 is solid. I am not sure about 2 Umezawa's Jitte but in my opinion the other choices wasn't good enough. I don't like Grim Lavamancer in a build with 4 Knights, I really really need the lands for KotR. Board against Mirror with Finks, Life hate with Vortex, Dredge with Crypt, Landstill with Teeg and Countertop with Shusher. What do you think about the build and Jitte?

[sauce]

-vortex +price of progress
i would rather run krosan grips than shushers.

[malden]

I am not sure about 2 Umezawa's Jitte but in my opinion the other choices wasn't good enough. What do you think about the build and Jitte?

In all of the games I have had with zoo, Jitte seemed to not help out when I drew it. I put it in the board and use Price of Progress instead. I definately agree with Sauce and you can put it in the board instead of Sulfuric Vortex, but lifegain isn't that big of a deal, at least not in my meta. PoP is also really good against land.dec and aggro loam, even if they go for their basics first, it still will hit for 6+ dmg usually.

[yadda]

i think four knights is a bit heavy, i would probably run 2/3 one less jitte and put chain lightnings in their place.



on an unrelated note im also going to a tournament this saturday and the expected meta is very very dredge heavy. after looking at the maindeckable cards that interact with dredge iv come to the conclusion that mogg fanatic may be maindeckable. obviously i would never play him if i wasnt expecting to play dredge all day but the kird apes are already considered sub par and do nothing to help with this matchup whereas the mogg is a champ against dredge and has other uses as well. (shoots bob hierarch ect ect). just wondering how awful an idea you guys think this is.

[GUnit]

Fanatic seems reasonable. Another alternative is just bringing a diverse sideboard that completely devastates dredge, while rolling with your regular gameplan for other decks.

What else are you expecting much of in your metagame? Burrenton Forge-Tender might be better if you expect a lot of gobbos as well.

[yadda]

innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting. what exactly is the deal with that card? since it doesnt target does there need to be a red source in order to sacrifice it? odd wording.

[gravemind123]

No, there does not need to be a red source to sacrifice Forge-Tender, but if there is a source, you will have to choose that.

[yadda]

again very interesting, its definitely not maindeckable but i guess it could be a decent sideboard option.

[Curby]

No, there does not need to be a red source to sacrifice Forge-Tender, but if there is a source, you will have to choose that.

I'm not so sure that's true.

If a card says "target" (and BFT does not), then you need a legal target in order to attempt to cast the spell or activate the ability. Furthermore, such a spell or ability would HAVE to target something if a legal target existed (but of course it exists or else you wouldn't be able to cast it).

When you crack a fetchland, you don't have to fetch a legally-fetchable land even if one exists in your deck, as the ability is not targeted. BFT's oracle text implies that it works the same way.

@Bitchtoken, that list doesn't look very standard at all. Almost all Zoo players would start the burn package with 8 Bolts before starting in on Helixes, not the other way around. Land-heavy and land-centric decks seem to gravitate towards Steppe Lynx. Four 3-drops seems uniquely high. You run more land to support them, but this may simply be an example of making a weakening change to support or account for another weakening change. Kird Ape is generally seen as a weaker 1-drop than Lavamancer, but you took out the well-respected Lavamancer because of a conflict with Knight, again weakening the deck to enable you to further weaken the deck.

Have you playtested a more traditional build and found this one superior? You may argue that this deck has a stronger late-game, but it certainly seems slower, and Zoo doesn't usually have issues in the late game anyway as it's fast enough to get the job done early while having mid-game endurance due to burn, Library, and Exalted Goyfs. In other words, you seem to be solving a problem that the deck doesn't have, and instead lessening one of the key advantages of the deck (namely its speed).