[Deck] Zoo [Archive] - Page 9

Svenyboy

01-16-2010, 03:05 PM

Hello at all,
today i won Legacy with this build:

Creature:
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Broodmate Dragon
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Sprouting Thrinax
4 Tarmogoyf

Instant:
3 Bituminous Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate

Sorcery:
4 Blightning
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize

Land:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Terminate

-> When I walked to the tournament, my friend said that he forgot my Zoo. In my bag was only my Jund Type 2 deck so I had to play with this build. I changed the Manabase and put some Tarmogoyf and Lotus Cobra in the build and the tournament started.

First Round against Countertop:
He played the Supreme Blue version but this build did nothing against me. Countertop fizzelt always, I played Broodmate Dragon in turn 5 what he couldnt countered and Ive won the first match. I didnt board.
Round 2 was simular. Bloodbrad Elf into Blightning was very strong and Broodmate Dragon won the game again.
2:0

Second Round against Zoo:
He played first turn Nacatl, second turn nacatl and ape. Uuuuuuh xD I had only Tarmogoyf and Blightning, but Fireblast from the top was the end.
I board +4 Kitchen Finks and +2 Terminate for -4 Thoughtseize and -2 Maelstrom Pulse. The second game was awesome. His Nacatl get a Lighting Bolt, Tarmogoyf get Terminate, turn 3 Blightning, Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf into Sprouting Thrinax. Game Win.
The last game and it was very slow. He played turn 1 only fetchland, second turn pridemage, Ive had 3 Tarmogoyf what he couldnt handle. Bituminous Blast into Kitchen Finks and I won the game.
2:1

Third Round against Dragon Stompy:
He played Chalice 1 and Magus of the Moon. Chalice 1 wasnt importand but Magus was very stupid. I did nothing the first 3 turn, Magus punished me on 14 then came the Lightning Bolt from the top. He played Radkos Pit Dragon and I had Bituminous Blast into Bloodbraid Elf into Sprouting Thrinax. Wooooow, good Action <33 I punished him for 3, next Round for 6, then came Broodmate Dragon and I finished the game. I didnt board.
I cant remember the second game but he played only Slogger and Trinishpere. Maelstrom Pulse on Thrinispeher, Termiante on Slogger and double Tarmogoyf win the game.
Awesome. 2:0

Fourth Round against Zoo xD:
This game was the most interested game Ive played today. His Zoo was with Elspeth, Garruk and Ajani Vengeant and it was very difficult to deal with. I lost the first came because Elspeth did to much and Maelstrom Pulse didnt come. +2 Maelstrom Pulse +2 Terminate for -4 Thoughtseize.
I started with turn 1 fetch, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf, turn 4 bloodbraid into Tarmogoyf xD amazing. He had only 2 Apes and KofReliquary (4/4). I raced him and punished him with Bolt in his face. 1:1
The last game was very excitiing with an audience of 15 guys. Turn 1 Nacatl, Bolt from me. Turn 2 Tarmogoyf of him, Terminate. Turn 3 Tarmogoyf + Nacatl, Maelstrom Pulse on Tarmogoyf then I took 3. He played after the attack with Nacatl only Slyvn Library. I draw from the Top Bloodbraid Elf. Elf into Blightning, wooow that was amazing and he had to discard 2 Elspeth.
Sylvan gave the third Tarmoyf, now had a problem to deal with his creatures because I didnt had the removal. But from the top came my Tarmogoyf, woow what a luck. I put goyf into play and said go. He draw land, go. I draw Bituminous Blat, yeaaaaaaaaah, attack with goyf, he blocked, bituminous blast into Lotus Cobra, thats ok. He draw land, go. I draw land too, attack with goyf and cobra. I punished him to 11. He draw Ape from the Top, not dangerous. I draw Bloodbraid Elf,amazing xD Elf into Maelstrom Pulse. Luuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!! I won the fourth round, now i had a chance to the first place.

Fifth round against Merfolk:
I played Turn 1 Thoughtseize, he revealed. Lord, Lord, Vial, Island, Island, FoW, Jitte. I tool the Vial and said go. He played Island, go. I played Tarmogoyf, FoW with Cursecatcher. He played Lord of Atlantis, go. I played Sprozting Thinax, go. He played the second Lord and attacked. ^^ I said block, they trade. His creature went to the GY and I get 3 Tokens, nice :D
Ive played Terminate on Lord, Attack with the Token, then Cobra. He played only Mutavault, go. I play a Fetchland, fetch, get a mountain, 2 mana in pool and 5 in the game. Broodmate Dragon, he Daze, I payed the mana. He looked and said scoop. Game 2. -4 Thoughtseize +2 Terminate and +2 Maelstrom Pulse. The second game was fast. Turn 2 cobra, turn 3 fetch and bituminous blast on his merrow reejerey, into tarmogoyf. attack with coba. Turn 4 fetch, broodmate Dragon, he cant handle it and I won the game.

After 5 rounds the standing from me was 5:0 and I won the tournament. Nice, 1 Tundra and 1 Usea. I think this deck is really nice, at the moment I would cut the Thoughtseize for 2 Terminate, 1 Pulse and 1 Dragon because I found the Thoughtseize not revelant.

Any comments?
greets.

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-16-2010, 04:20 PM

@Bitchtoken: That isn't Zoo, at all:confused:

@Nelis: My list can be found anywhere on this thread. I don't feel like typing it out again. I've posted it a million times. I run 4 Helix bc they are too freaking good to not run.

Svenyboy

01-16-2010, 05:47 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-16-2010, 05:57 PM

I know that isn't Zoo but The Source don't have a Jund thread ^^

I think there is one in the new and developmental section. I've written one like two years ago, and two more have also been written since then. I like the idea of Jund Aggro but i could never get it to work no matter what i did.

spankme

01-16-2010, 05:59 PM

Otter

01-16-2010, 06:05 PM

You can cut the Shushers, since there's no countertop and Zoo already beats Fish. Could probably use the slots on more yard hate, a fourth Teeg, maybe a Jitte or two.

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-16-2010, 06:09 PM

Guys, I am going to play a GPT tomorrow with a that list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31672

How would you make the sideboard, if you would know that the meta from today was like that below, and tomorrow would be almost identical:

3x Mono U Merfolk
3x WGR Zoo
2x Stax (W/Wg)
2x Reanimator (UB/Bg)
2x Dredge (oba Ichorid & LED)
1x Canadian Threshold
1x Aggro Loam
1x Belcher
1x BGW Rock
1x Mono U Control
1x Mono R Burn
1x Mono B Control
1x Mono R Goblins

What would be most vial sideboarding techniques? Any help is highly appreciated :)

You don't have any trouble with Merfolk, so i wouldn't worry about that match too much. For the mirror, i would run Jitte and the fourth Helix, hell run the fourth Helix anyway. Cut Fireblast. -2 Fireblast, +1 Jitte, +1 Helix.

Run a 2/2 or 3/3 split in the sideboard for gravehate. It's just your call. It's good against Dredge, Loam, and Reanimator.

I would suggest STP for the board as well. It's awesome against Dredge, the mirror, Aggro Loam, Reanimator, Rock. All those decks.

I would expect some Countertop to be there as well, but it's your call because you know the meta better than i do. Maybe Shusher and Choke? Or Red Blast?

Ancient Grudge could be good too considering you don't really need split second, or at least it doesn't seem.

Hope this has helped.

spankme

01-16-2010, 06:14 PM

I wasnt actually going to use the sideboard from that list. I was asking for a propositions for complete lists, plus sideouts hints, if possible. My first thought on sb are currently:

2 x Vexing Susher (fish, *****, muc)
2 x Great Sable Stag (fish, thresh, muc, rock)
1 x Umezawa's Jitte (zoo)
3 x Price of Progress (zoo, canadian-t, various decks)
3 x Krosan Grip (stax, zoo)
2 x Tormod's Crypt (dredge, reanimator, loam)
2 x Ravenous Trap (dredge, reanimator, loam)

Thoughts? Hints?

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-16-2010, 06:17 PM

spankme

01-16-2010, 06:26 PM

Sorry, I was typing my reply while you posted yours. Im considering moving Jitte and 4th Helix to main, instead of the Fireblasts. That gives me one free slot in the sideboard.

The stags were to solve some issues with any blue deck immediately, same as Sushers, except that Sushers are not really attacking. But I may consider cutting at least Stags, what would give me two more slots, resulting in three slots free. Anything I should add?

And what about things to side out in given matchups? I can see that even more important than pure decklists and sideboardlists.

Thanks for your advice anyway!

Otter

01-16-2010, 06:33 PM

Teeg is pretty sweet for that metagame. He ruins Relcher, turns off Dread Return and Breakthrough against Dredge, and does plenty of good stuff against Stax. And I really wouldn't recommend going in without a plan against Belcher, I know there's just one of it, but he can easily ruin your day.

Stags don't really solve any of the blue problems that you care about. You beat Fish regardless. Tempo Thresh has no blue creatures and can just Bolt him in the face if they actually care for some reason. Half the reason people gave up on MUC was because of Zoo being too fast for them to deal with and Pridemage ruins B2B, one of their very few advantages over Landstill (which doesn't see much play anyways lately).

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-16-2010, 06:33 PM

@spankme: You'll prolly find yourself boarding out Chain Lightning, and the third Knight bc of speed issues in some matchups. I side out Thoctars against Tempo Thresh bc they try to mana screw you. Also they arent too good against Dredge either. Kird Ape can be boarded out too without much worry.

spankme

01-16-2010, 06:40 PM

spankme

01-16-2010, 06:43 PM

One more thing - to complete the list from that link, I am missing two cards: Wooded Foothills and Plateau. I realised I could use fourth Arid Mesa with same success, but lack of Plateau troubles me. Basic Plains or Mountain.

Also - maybe I could cut Sushers for 2 Swords to Plowshares?

Otter

01-16-2010, 06:48 PM

Following your paths guys the Stags are out. So, 3 Teegs in that place? I could probably cut 2 Sushers too, but first, I would have to fight with blue (fishy) decks bare hands (well, maye siding in Grips for their Vials/Jittes) what I am afraid of (to have my things countered endlessly), second, I've no idea what do put in their place, and for which matchup.

Fish doesn't have nearly enough counters to keep all of your guys off the field. Besides, even if they get a lucky draw and do, then they don't have enough counters to stop you from wrecking their mediocre creatures with Zoo's abundant removal. Don't forget they can't save Forces for your big creatures, because they cannot beat an active Lavamancer and must counter it every time. The matchup is awful for them.

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-16-2010, 07:51 PM

@spankme: My manabase is as follows, and it's a great manabase.
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
2x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Plains

You could cut the second Savannah for a Horizon Canopy, or a fetchland. I used to run Canopy and know it's strengths and such. This is a stock Zoo manabase and is pretty tight beside the suggestions I've made.

And yeah i would cut all your Shushers all together because Monoblue Control and Merfolk, like Otter said, don't run too many counters. Swords i think is really freaking good in the kind of Meta youre going into.

Here is a sample SB:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Price of Progress
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddock Teeg/Other hate bear

Nelis

01-17-2010, 08:01 AM

@Baileyarch: with all due respect but if you ask people to help you out with your list don't expect them to do your work for you. You could've looked it up yourself and copy paste it. Besides I do not know if you have changed your list since you've posted it the last time.

Here is a sample SB:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Price of Progress
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddock Teeg/Other hate bear

I would try to fit in another Teeg. In my opinion you want to maximize your chances winning against Combo and Stax. Teeg helps enormously. Cutting a Swords or a Grip would do (I would choose Swords).

spankme

01-17-2010, 02:56 PM

So I played following SB:

3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Price of Progress
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddock Teeg

This sideboard is strange. I found it not doing much too often (when I was winning games post board without seeing even cards I brought from sb) or on the other side not doing anything, when I was loosing games with hand full of theoretical hate. The example could be game with Stax, when there was 1-1 in games (I lost first pretty quickly, won second thanks to Lavamancer and some burn in addition to his Tomb) and in game three I got Trinisphere on his first turn, and couldnt do anythign despite two Grip's and one Teeg on starting hand.

Otter

01-17-2010, 03:04 PM

If you couldn't hit three land, it's not like you'd ever beat a Trinisphere, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. At least if you get three land out, you can Teeg and stop him from locking you out under with with a Smokestack or Geddon.

spankme

01-17-2010, 03:17 PM

I could hit even more than three lands, but unless they're basics or fetches allowing me to fetch forest, I cant really play much of my threats due to recurring Wastelands. Stax seem to be fatal matchup.

Also, pre board I had enourmous issues with AggroLoam. Post board I had Crypts to solve loam issues and Knights of the Reliquary site on his side, but it wasnt that easy anyway, and I eventually lost second game too.

Nelis

01-17-2010, 04:50 PM

I've played AggroLoam a couple of times and I too find it a hard match-up. It doesn't surprise me that you couldn't win. I haven't been able to win any myself (yet). I think you have been a bit unlucky against Stax. I would consider Aggroloam more a fatal matchup than Stax.

I actually wonder how people sideboard against Loam? I usually just board in 3 PoP and ignore trying to remove their graveyard. What do you guys do?

jazzykat

01-17-2010, 04:53 PM

FYI I just came in second in a micro gpt with only 9 people (WTF?). A single observation:

This deck is incredibly consistent. I mulled once over 6 rounds (cut to top 4)

2 questions:

1. Are the new RGb aggro loam lists with pulse, ee, and chalice more difficult matchups for us? I got my ass handed to me twice once in swiss and once in the finals. It seemed like he had CoTV or Zuran orb all the time and my 4 Pridemages and 2 boarded in grips had to work much too hard.

2. It seems some people have cut the Horizon Canopy(s). Why as they have been nothing but awesome for me!

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-17-2010, 05:04 PM

spankme

01-17-2010, 05:28 PM

Well, AggroLoam isnt THAT hard. My opponent simply got very lucky post board game.
First of all, kill Confidants, which is easy with Chains.
Second, bring in the Crypts - not only they stop Loam for a while, but also makes his KotR killable by burn sometimes. When they arent, kill them with PTE or STP (I have two in sideboard).
Third, DONT kill the Crusher immediately. His ability is a trigger, so it is a way better to wait either for Devastating Dreams being played, and triggers from Crusher going on stack (he's killable by Bolt or Helix at that moment) or wait to see what is going from top for your opponent. You can even kill him by removing counters from Jitte in response to any trigger from him.
The reason I've lost was due to my opponent getting KotR, Finks (!@$!$%), KotR from top of his library, while I had Two goyfs, bolt on hand and he was on 6. Bad luck this time.

hungryLIKEALION

01-17-2010, 05:38 PM

People cut canopies because they're worried about consistency, but I think they're great and would never cut them. If you're having trouble with aggro loam, play ee in your board. It's a great supplement to grip and pridemage against their chalices and orb. You may not even need grip at that point.

Nelis

01-17-2010, 07:36 PM

@Nelis: I was lazy and didn't wanna type it all out at the time, and i was just trying to help another Zoo player out, so sue me i suppose. Don't get all weird on me mah friend :cool:

@jazzykat: I've found Aggro Loam freaking problematic as hell. Even the lists without CotV can blow you out. I try to fetch basics then they Devastating Dreams anyway. I just try and race them while they are getting their Loam engine going. Burn Crusher ASAP. And I've had games where even if i recovered from DDreams, the just wish for Chainer's Edict or Firespout. I think the matchup is miserable.

I ran Canopy when i first picked up the deck and it was either alright, or sucked. Then Nacatl got printed and i can recall several times i lost games just because i didn't have a fetch or Forest/Plains. I could see myself running it again though. It's not a bad card.

No prob.:smile:

I don't know about Canopy. I used to run none, then 2 and now I'm thinking of going back to 0. What you described has happened to me a few times too. And it's also a miserable card when its your only green and/or white source and you are stuck on 3 (or even 2) lands. It happened a couple of times that I took quite some damage that it became problematic.

So that will be -2 Canopy +1 Savannah +1 Arid Mesa (or maybe +1 Savannah +1 Plateau) which would make my manabase:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah

@Lion: Yeah I already put 3 EE in my sb after your success with it.

spankme

01-18-2010, 05:38 AM

Sigar

01-18-2010, 05:46 AM

Not that I would advertise playing EE, but Chalice in play with any number of counters = cmc0.

Nelis

01-18-2010, 06:28 AM

Frankly speaking, I dont see how EE can be helpful in AggroLoam matchup (that isnt that hard, to repeat once more). His costs are spreaded across the mana curve - mox diamond, various chalices, confidant, KotR or Crusher. And the creatures are easily killable/easy to disable by graveyard hate, burn and clever play. I could see bigger issue in Maze of Ith, that can slow you down incredibly.
Stax, this is really miserable matchup. Trinisphere, followed by Wastelands and Armageddon is an auto loose.

Then I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree. The way I see things.

I haven't tried it out yet but the way I picture it against Loam EE can:
- Take out their moxes or chalices; It gives you a tempo boost since you can play EE for 0 while also putting down one or two creatures (depending on the turn of course) so you can still apply pressure the next turn with your creatures and get rid of those cards the turn you attack.
- It can get rid of (multiple) creatures on the board so you can keep your burn spells for the dome. This is prob their best feature. A lot of times you can't burn away their Tarmogoyf(s) so you need Path To Exile (hoping they don't have chalice). Since you only run 4 having a few EE's can help tremendously and they're very versatile anyway. Best scenario is to get rid of a Tarmogoyf and a Confidant or 2 Tarmogoyfs at once.

The trick fighting stax is to take your time (which you have). Sure game 1 could be hard especially when you don't draw Pridemages but after sb-ing you have much more hate for them than they for you.

As long as you have a Teeg and fetch basics theres hardly any problem (apart from maybe Oblivion Ring on your Teeg). Not only do they need a Trinisphere turn 1 to hold you off they also need that Armageddon.

But before they can play Armageddon they also need a humility or moat (to keep you at bay) and they need a wincon as well. Since they don't play that many moats, humilities and armageddon there's a big chance they don't draw them anyway or much too late.

You can even ignore Trinisphere an keep your artifact/enchantment removal for Chalice so you can still apply pressure by playing your creatures or use your path to clear the way. Or keep them on moat or humility should they slip trough.

To me it's most important to keep Humility off the table because it screws your Pridemages. I'm not saying it's an auto win. It can go horribly wrong, but I do not fear this match-up.

And imagine siding in EE, you can play it for three and get rid of Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring all at once! Or get rid of Mox Diamond and Chalice at once! Good times!

EDIT: I'm a bit too enthusiastic here since Teeg and EE dont work together but they might complement each other even so.

jazzykat

01-18-2010, 07:57 AM

EE=0 kills, all of CoTV, all EE on the board, Mox Diamonds, AND Zuran Orb. That seems pretty good to me....

EDIT: and it only costs 2 of any mana to cast and operate!

bulaxas

01-18-2010, 10:05 AM

except for the part you skip turn two...to crack it...

Banned for repeated failure to follow site rules. -zilla

jazzykat

01-18-2010, 10:10 AM

except for the part you skip turn two...to crack it...

If I don't have any 2 drops then yeah, I'll spend the turn getting rid of what they played last turn. It sure beats sitting there with a whole hand of uncastable cards...

yadda

01-18-2010, 03:43 PM

Frankly speaking, I dont see how EE can be helpful in AggroLoam matchup

i will use a quick anecdote to show how good EE is against aggro loam. round two of the last tournament i played with zoo my opponent opened game 3 on the play with land diamond chalice at 1. i played forest and said go. he played goyf and passed back. on my turn 2 i lay my land EE for 0 and kill his diamond and chalice. he makes another land drop and casts loam. i untap play 2 one drops and path his goyf in his upkeep. without EE I never win this game.

Proper capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. -zilla

sauce

01-18-2010, 04:36 PM

i will use a quick anecdote to show how good EE is against aggro loam. round two of the last tournament i played with zoo my opponent opened game 3 on the play with land diamond chalice at 1. i played forest and said go. he played goyf and passed back. on my turn 2 i lay my land EE for 0 and kill his diamond and chalice. he makes another land drop and casts loam. i untap play 2 one drops and path his goyf in his upkeep. without EE I never win this game.

what is your sideboard?
thanks

Proper capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. -zilla

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-18-2010, 04:42 PM

I can kinda see EE and Zoo's own personal mini-Deed/Disk/Sweeperthingy.

It also gives you an out to ETW too. Not like you couldn't handle them anyway, but it helps.

hungryLIKEALION

01-18-2010, 07:39 PM

I love it when my tech catches on. :)

yadda

01-18-2010, 10:26 PM

the sideboard i ran for that tournament was:

3x EE
2x KGrip
3x tormod's crypt
3x Teeg
1x Jitte
3x Price of Progress

for the record lion designed the deck 75/75 i just ran it.

Official warning issued for failure to use capitalization. -zilla

sauce

01-18-2010, 11:00 PM

the sideboard i ran for that tournament was:

3x EE
2x KGrip
3x tormod's crypt
3x Teeg
1x Jitte
3x Price of Progress

for the record lion designed the deck 75/75 i just ran it.

my sb:
1 relic of progenitus
3 ravenous trap
2 faerie macabre
1 burrenton forge tender
2 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
1 jitte
3 mindbreak trap

i run 2 teegs main tho and meta has a lot of GY decks like reanimator and dredge.
obv is not the board id run at a major tournament

Official warning issued for failure to use capitalization. -zilla

miko

01-19-2010, 06:04 AM

Why do you run Teeg and Ravenous Trap instead of using Crypt? I mean Teeg shuts down your Trap...

sauce

01-19-2010, 09:33 AM

Why do you run Teeg and Ravenous Trap instead of using Crypt? I mean Teeg shuts down your Trap...

On the draw you don't always have a chance to get Teeg down but you can almost always guarantee you can play Ravenous trap turn1 and/or turn2.
Afterwards Teeg can come down safely.

Daredevil

01-20-2010, 09:07 AM

jazzykat

01-20-2010, 09:37 AM

When playing this list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31526 that won SCG Dallas how would you side against merfolks (monoblue)?

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Lightning Helix
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I guess REB is obvious, Teeg shuts down Force, Helix is good, anything else? And what cards to you take out from the main deck? Apes?

I don't use Teeg vs. them.

I would use: 2 Jitte, 2 REB, and maybe a Helix, and/or grudge (to hit vial). I would remove things like POP and fireblast from the main. I would also remove any 3cc such as KoTR. I would then remove Kird Ape and FoD and/or lightning helix (2color requirements are not that cool).

You need to maintain a reasonable amount of creatures to equip with Jitte, and be easy on your manabase because they have waste/stifle/daze. Short of getting hosed by a vial standstill opening you should have a walk in the park.

EDIT: I always take out MD PoP's vs. them considering I normally have at least 3/4 cards I want to bring in.

Tao

01-20-2010, 09:47 AM

+ 2 REB (obvious)
+ 2 Jitte (wins when unanswered and can Disenchant their Jitte)
- 1 Gaddock Teeg (only shutting down FoW is not enough, all of your creatures should run over Silvergill Adept)
- 1 Fireblast (they bring in 4 BEB and you also want to shoot their creatures not their head)
- 2 KotR (good but too tough to play against Stifle, Waste and Daze)

humppa

01-20-2010, 11:12 AM

DCTopTeam

01-24-2010, 05:04 PM

White Kird Ape

Loam Lion W

Gets +1/+2 as long as you control a Forest.

1/1

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214957

Could this get any play at all?

johanessen

01-24-2010, 05:52 PM

I am currently with this build:

4 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

I'm not sure to swap Kird Ape for Steppe Lynx, anyone can explain their own experience. If finally I switch them up, would be necessary to add two or three copies of Knight of Reliquary? Thanks!

Rizso

01-24-2010, 06:12 PM

Im playing with the Steppe Lynx 12 Fetches, Lot of times when having the lynx in start hand the opponents have to take care of it by early removal for it or take lots of damage. He has been nothing but great for me. Taking peoples Hp far lower then anything else that could been drawn durring the early games. I dont run any Knight of the reliqaury or woolly Thocter but instead using Figure of destiny.

Cesarius

01-24-2010, 06:43 PM

White Kird Ape

Loam Lion W

Gets +1/+2 as long as you control a Forest.

1/1

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214957

Could this get any play at all?

Seeing white is the least dominant color in zoo, I don't see a reason why Loam Lion should take Kird Ape slots. It would make use more vurnerable to Engineered Plague too. (We're already playing 8 cats!)

Wargoos

01-24-2010, 06:58 PM

Seeing white is the least dominant color in zoo, I don't see a reason why Loam Lion should take Kird Ape slots. It would make use more vurnerable to Engineered Plague too. (We're already playing 8 cats!)

Cat tribal ftw! No one's playing plagues anymore.
Anyways, thing is that the Lion cannot be blasted.
Downside is that you never ever want to go for savannah first turn.

Kird Ape

01-25-2010, 03:51 PM

I think to make the Lynx extremely effective, you have to play Sylvan and be aggressive with it. Dropping fetches and swinging for 4 is something that Kird Ape never did for me. In testing against lands, Lynx has won me games by getting my opponent within burn range before they stabilize. I think the same holds true in some of the Counterbalance matchups. They are going to get Countertop online and it's almost impossible to sneak anything by a decent player, so we have to be as aggressive as possible with our builds. Lynx is the missing boost we needed for the first 3 turns.

Rizso

01-25-2010, 04:30 PM

Playing with Sylvan Library as well. Geting a Lynx and a sylvan in play is awesome. Keep geting the fetches for it to do 12+ damage.

IrishLegend

01-25-2010, 07:19 PM

Cat tribal ftw! No one's playing plagues anymore.
Anyways, thing is that the Lion cannot be blasted.
Downside is that you never ever want to go for savannah first turn.

I beg to differ as long as goblins and merfolk are around plagues will be.

FoulQ

01-25-2010, 07:48 PM

I have been testing steppe lynx a little bit in the deck and I do really like the interaction between fetch + lynx + library as well. I concur with any others that have found the card to be great.

IMO Loam lion is not good. Maybe it is my playstyle, but I like to have my red mana available early for removal (as PTE is usually better late in the game, while bolt shines earlier). Loam lion encourages savannah, like others have said. If a deck kills a kird ape with BEB, it isn't an absolutely atrocious trade, as they both take a single mana. I believe that proper mulliganing decisions (such as making sure I have a plethora of threats in my opener against a BEB control deck like countertop) are better to learn than replacing ape with lion.

Steppe Lynx is risky but I think a very interesting spin on the deck. I don't think we should lie to ourselves, we will be in the aggro role most of the time, and steppe lynx gets your opponent frightened in a hurry. If your opponent ends up removing him, can you really ask for any more for a single W mana creature? If you have written the card off, I think now is the time to test it.

troopatroop

01-25-2010, 07:59 PM

I've been playing with Lynx since it came out, and it's been better than Kird Ape. It wins games that Kird Ape wouldn't have. I also strongly encourage everyone to try Reckless Charge out with Steppe Lynx. It maximizes the number of Fetchland uses you get out of Lynx, which can be a huge problem if you're just low on lands. The increase in speed has won games for me against storm. It's better than burn in some matchups, because you get an extra attack step in with the creature, and a threat after the fact too. It works with Nacatl, Goyf, and Pridemage as well. I doubt many players would see it coming at all. I played a deck like this at a local tournament, faced two Dredge, Affinity, and Merfolk to go 4-0. Not terribly significant, but It's a welcomed increase in speed for Sligh. I've really enjoyed it.

Jayzonious

01-25-2010, 10:52 PM

I'll give Steppe Lynx a chance next time I play and post my opinion.

I also strongly encourage everyone to try Reckless Charge out with Steppe Lynx. It maximizes the number of Fetchland uses you get out of Lynx, which can be a huge problem if you're just low on lands. The increase in speed has won games for me against storm. It's better than burn in some matchups, because you get an extra attack step in with the creature, and a threat after the fact too. It works with Nacatl, Goyf, and Pridemage as well. I doubt many players would see it coming at all. I played a deck like this at a local tournament, faced two Dredge, Affinity, and Merfolk to go 4-0. Not terribly significant, but It's a welcomed increase in speed for Sligh. I've really enjoyed it.

I really dislike the potential of getting card/tempo disadvantage from Reckless Charge, although it happen to work well in the match-ups you played probably due to their lack of spot removal (Dredge, Affinity, and Merfolk).

For example: I play a creature, Reckless Charge said creaturee, and the creature gets removed in response. Going 2 for 1 defines a big part of the game (this would technically 1.5 to 1 due to flashback).

I'll give Steppe Lynx a chance next time I play and post my opinion.

troopatroop

01-25-2010, 11:33 PM

I see what you're saying, and the STP argument is obvious, but it actually assumes alot.

1. Your opponent has to be playing it
2. Your opponent has to draw it
3. Your opponent has to have mana to play it
4. You're playing into it

It's my opinion, that if you simply try to pick your spots well with Reckless Charge, you'll end up ahead in the long run. Getting an extra attack step in is amazing.

Gui

01-26-2010, 06:36 AM

Maybe it has been discussed already, but I couldn't find entries to "mirror" in the search.

What is SB plan to mirror match? I mean, in a Zoo-heavy meta, what's best SB options.

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-26-2010, 08:40 AM

Maybe it has been discussed already, but I couldn't find entries to "mirror" in the search.

What is SB plan to mirror match? I mean, in a Zoo-heavy meta, what's best SB options.

Jitte, and STP pretty much. You could bring in gravehate if you're that scared of Goyf, but it seems bad. Board out like PoP, but keep fat beaters like Knight and Thoctar in.

hungryLIKEALION

01-28-2010, 02:25 AM

I side in 3 EE and my second Jitte for 2 Kird Apes and 2 Chain Lightnings. Chain really blows in the mirror match since they can kill your guys too, and Kird ape doesn't trade with anything, so it's not really useful. For people who don't play EE on their sideboard, I'm going to assume you have STP on your board so you bring that in. It's not really worth it to bring in graveyard hate since you have your own goyfs and you want to minimize dead cards at all costs.

Edit//I've had some requests for my current list/board. It hasn't really changed since my top4 Vestal list, so here's that;

3rd Place - Harry Matten Gillen

4 Wild Nacatl
2 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 mountain

sb
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip

This is the basic list I almost always work from.

tappedoutcontroldeck

01-29-2010, 01:02 PM

I still don't understand why people aren't embracing steppe lynx it is infinity better than kird ape early game. Although it is a bad top deck late game, kird ape really isn't much better.

sauce

01-29-2010, 01:13 PM

I still don't understand why people aren't embracing steppe lynx it is infinity better than kird ape early game. Although it is a bad top deck late game, kird ape really isn't much better.

Steppe Lynx is good only when you get a flooded draw, he sucks when you draw a good amount of gas (spells).
Kird Ape is almost always 2/3 and if he isn't you should not have kept that hand.
Edit: oh and Kird ape can occasionally block while Lynx cant even block a Lackey and survive (unless you're leaving it + fetchland back...)

Kuma

01-29-2010, 03:14 PM

troopatroop

01-29-2010, 04:20 PM

Steppe Lynx is good only when you get a flooded draw

This is false. Steppe Lynx needs two fetchlands to deal 8 damage, for a 1 mana investment. If you're getting in there for that much damage with a one drop, its done the job already. Three lands isn't land flood. If anything, this a benefit to running Steppe Lynx. It makes land heavy draws less painful, and Fetchlands better in general.

Kird ape can occasionally block while Lynx cant even block a Lackey

Okay? So what. This deck has a stellar Goblins matchup, and tons of other1cc removal to kill Lackey. Be reminded that Zoo is almost always the beatdown deck. I would gladly trade Kird Ape's abilities on defense for Steppe Lynx's abilities on offense.

Tao

01-29-2010, 04:31 PM

Searing Blaze :r::r:

Instant

Searing Blaze deals 1 damage to target player and 1 damage to target creature that player controls.

Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, Searing Blaze deals 3 damage to that player and 3 damage to that creature instead.

Has anyone tried this yet? Since people are moving towards running Steppe Lynx and building their lists to accomodate it, it seems like the Landfall wouldn't be hard to get. Kill your blocker and deal three to you seems incredibly strong. This has to be better than Lightning Helix, at the very least.

It looks pretty good but I see 2 problems:
- You can't cast it when your opponent offers no target, that is bad against quite a lot of decks.
- I also can imagine that if you have a draw with T1 Nacatl, T2 Pridemage , T3 Goyf and only 3 lands it either screw up your curve or you won't be able to cast for the full 3 damage.

Kuma

01-29-2010, 04:42 PM

It looks pretty good but I see 2 problems:
- You can't cast it when your opponent offers no target, that is bad against quite a lot of decks.

Your opponent having no creatures is an excellent position for you to be in. Searing Blaze is bad in good situations and good in bad situations. That's a pretty strong reason to run a card.

Obviously you board it out against creatureless decks.

- I also can imagine that if you have a draw with T1 Nacatl, T2 Pridemage , T3 Goyf and only 3 lands it either screw up your curve or you won't be able to cast for the full 3 damage.

If you have that hand, you probably don't need Searing Blaze to win. Zoo runs 20-21 lands, it's not like you're not going to draw them.

In your above example, you could always hold that third land until next turn since you don't need it to play goyf.

yadda

01-29-2010, 05:32 PM

Most importantly if that third land is a fetch you can just not crack it. Why would you crack it anyway?

hungryLIKEALION

01-29-2010, 05:32 PM

Be reminded that Zoo is almost always the beatdown deck. I would gladly trade Kird Ape's abilities on defense for Steppe Lynx's abilities on offense.

I play the control role in a lot of matchups... Tempo Thresh, the mirror, Goblins, Merfolk, all these matchups are ones where you have inevitability.

Gojjin

01-29-2010, 10:28 PM

[QUOTE=Kuma;424477]Your opponent having no creatures is an excellent position for you to be in. Searing Blaze is bad in good situations and good in bad situations. That's a pretty strong reason to run a card.

I dont know about all that, The creatureless decks I run into are always nightmare match-ups :
Dream Halls - Storm combo (any kind almost) - Belcher - Enchantress (no targets besides Sigil tokens) - or 43/38 lands..

In all those match-ups Helix is far superior, I also would have to argue the mana base this card brings, My current zoo list is running 22 lands with 12 Fetchs , 8 Sources , and 2 Canopy.. and I still have trouble getting 2 red early in the game. This card is strong enough for extended, but even then, Punishing fire is more effecient..

spirit of the wretch

01-30-2010, 06:03 AM

Your opponent having no creatures is an excellent position for you to be in. Searing Blaze is bad in good situations and good in bad situations. That's a pretty strong reason to run a card.

Tendrils of Agony, Life from the Loam and Nimble Mongoose would like to have a word with you.

Has anyone tried this yet? Since people are moving towards running Steppe Lynx and building their lists to accomodate it, it seems like the Landfall wouldn't be hard to get.

Especially with the Lynx in the deck, I think it'll be much harder to get the Landfall online, if you want to play it instant.

Nevertheless this card really is interesting, just because the effect is THAT powerful. In my opinion the problem is, that it's powerful in MUs that are already in Zoos favour (read: against decks that run lots of creatures with < 3 toughness). It doesn't help the XX.Lands/Combo/Prison MU at all, on the contrary, you now play more dead cards preboard. And I think those are the MUs one should focus on improving.

Kuma

01-30-2010, 02:35 PM

I dont know about all that, The creatureless decks I run into are always nightmare match-ups :
Dream Halls - Storm combo (any kind almost) - Belcher - Enchantress (no targets besides Sigil tokens) - or 43/38 lands..

I didn't say that creatureless decks were good matchups, I said that your opponent not having blockers is a good situation to be in. These are two very different concepts. Like I said earlier, obviously you side out Searing Blaze against those decks. It's worth taking a small hit against already bad matchups to improve your matchup against most of the rest of the decks in the format.

In all those match-ups Helix is far superior

Lightning Helix is better in those matchups, but to say it's far superior is disingenuous. Lightning Helix isn't doing anything to make those matchups favorable. You're losing those matchups whether you run Lightning Helix or Searing Blaze.

I also would have to argue the mana base this card brings, My current zoo list is running 22 lands with 12 Fetchs , 8 Sources , and 2 Canopy.. and I still have trouble getting 2 red early in the game.

Are you serious?

You're telling me it's no problem to get :r::w: early in the game, but that :r::r: is hard?

*pfft*

Zoo's mana base is based around mountains and fetching cards with the mountain type. If anything, :r::r: should be easier to get.

Tendrils of Agony, Life from the Loam and Nimble Mongoose would like to have a word with you.

And Lightning Helix does what about these cards?

Virtually every other creature in the format would like to have a word with you.

Especially with the Lynx in the deck, I think it'll be much harder to get the Landfall online, if you want to play it instant.

What are you talking about? You could easily use it to clear out blockers for your Steppe Lynx while hitting your opponent for even more damage. Or you could play a land in your precombat main phase and trade your Kird Ape for their Tarmogoyf in combat while bolting them. It suffers a little during their turn, but this is a proactive card, not a reactive one. It's also card advantage neutral in many situations unlike the rest of the burn in Zoo.

Nevertheless this card really is interesting, just because the effect is THAT powerful. In my opinion the problem is, that it's powerful in MUs that are already in Zoos favour (read: against decks that run lots of creatures with < 3 toughness). It doesn't help the XX.Lands/Combo/Prison MU at all, on the contrary, you now play more dead cards preboard. And I think those are the MUs one should focus on improving.

What does Lightning Helix do against any of those decks?

We're talking about a tiny hit to a few already poor matchups to improve nearly every other matchup we could face. If we were talking about taking a hit in matchups that are 50/50ish to improve a similar number of matchups that are 75/25, you'd have a case, but I don't think that's what is happening here.

spirit of the wretch

01-31-2010, 07:01 AM

And Lightning Helix does what about these cards?

Virtually every other creature in the format would like to have a word with you.

Exactely what you would want any red spell to do in that MU: Speed up your clock. Should be good in an aggressive deck.

What are you talking about? You could easily use it to clear out blockers for your Steppe Lynx while hitting your opponent for even more damage. Or you could play a land in your precombat main phase and trade your Kird Ape for their Tarmogoyf in combat while bolting them. It suffers a little during their turn, but this is a proactive card, not a reactive one. It's also card advantage neutral in many situations unlike the rest of the burn in Zoo.

Yeah, my point is that the Landfall pretty much depreciates it to sorcery speed, if you`ve a Lynx. Furthermore if you hold back lands in your hand in case you draw a Lynx and you draw this burn, you'll have to play that land and consequently weaken all Lynx you might draw in the future. Bottom line: although it might seem counter intuitional, Lynx and Blaze are antisynergie.

We're talking about a tiny hit to a few already poor matchups to improve nearly every other matchup we could face. If we were talking about taking a hit in matchups that are 50/50ish to improve a similar number of matchups that are 75/25, you'd have a case, but I don't think that's what is happening here.

That is IF you have a land drop, making the deck even more unreliable.Some peolpe refuse to play Lynx, because he makes the deck less streamlined and the cat is way more powerful than a burn spell. If you play up to 8 Landfall cards, you'll lose games, just because you didn't draw your fourth land. Hell, I lost games because I didn't draw my fifth land with a Lynx on the table.

So:

Bad in already bad MUs
Antisynergie with Lynx
Makes the deck less reliable
Usually a bad topdeck

Kuma

02-01-2010, 11:46 AM

Exactely what you would want any red spell to do in that MU: Speed up your clock. Should be good in an aggressive deck.

I understand that.

My point is those matchups are awful and Lightning Helix does little to change that. If you were really concerned about making those matchups better game one, you'd maindeck Gaddock Teeg and/or Jotun Grunt.

Yeah, my point is that the Landfall pretty much depreciates it to sorcery speed, if you`ve a Lynx.

I didn't know landfall and Steppe Lynx collectively stop you from playing a fully powered Searing Blaze in your combat phase. Good to know.

Furthermore if you hold back lands in your hand in case you draw a Lynx and you draw this burn, you'll have to play that land and consequently weaken all Lynx you might draw in the future. Bottom line: although it might seem counter intuitional, Lynx and Blaze are antisynergie.

No, they're not antisynergistic. Both cards benefit from landfall triggers, and are actually fantastic when drawn together. What happens if you never draw the Steppe Lynx you're holding back lands for? If you run Searing Blaze, there are more cards in your deck that can make those held back lands useful.

I'm sorry, but the above situations are much more likely to happen than topdecking a Lynx and have it be slightly weaker because you played a Searing Blaze a turn or two turn before. The above situations are also likely to be much more beneficial than your worst case scenario is bad.

That is IF you have a land drop, making the deck even more unreliable.Some peolpe refuse to play Lynx, because he makes the deck less streamlined and the cat is way more powerful than a burn spell. If you play up to 8 Landfall cards, you'll lose games, just because you didn't draw your fourth land. Hell, I lost games because I didn't draw my fifth land with a Lynx on the table.

It's so hard to trigger Landfall in a deck with 21-22 lands, 12 of which are fetchlands.

What little you lose in consistency, you more than make up for in raw power. Also, you need one landfall once to make a Searing Blaze effective. Lynx requires lots of landfall triggers to be fully effective.

I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

I've also never advocated running Searing Blaze in Zoo lists that don't run Steppe Lynx.

So:
Bad in already bad MUs

So what? Most cards in Zoo are bad in it's worst matchups. That's why those decks are the worst matchups.

Antisynergie with Lynx

Not true.

Makes the deck less reliable

Barely. And it makes it a lot more powerful.

Usually a bad topdeck

Really? The topdeck defense? There should be some sort of Godwin's Law equivalent for if your argument about why a card is bad is based on it being a bad topdeck. We could have an equivalent law for people arguing for cards being good because they pitch to Force of Will.

The funny thing is it isn't that bad of a topdeck, especially if you're holding back lands like you suggest. It's no Tarmogoyf, but still...

Illissius

02-01-2010, 12:24 PM

So what? Most cards in Zoo are bad in it's worst matchups. That's why those decks are the worst matchups.

THANK YOU. This one of the most annoying fallacy-like things ever and people keep mindlessly repeating it like it makes any kind of sense. I was thinking of starting a thread.

Really? The topdeck defense? There should be some sort of Godwin's Law equivalent for if your argument about why a card is bad is based on it being a bad topdeck.

That said, I don't see why this isn't a valid argument. Some cards are good when you topdeck them in the lategame, and other cards aren't. There's no reason why a card being bad in this situation shouldn't be a valid mark against it. Usually, cards which nonetheless end up being included counterbalance this by being very good in other situations. And that said, in this specific case, you can, as you said, just hold back some fetchlands.

Kuma

02-01-2010, 12:44 PM

That said, I don't see why this isn't a valid argument. Some cards are good when you topdeck them in the lategame, and other cards aren't. There's no reason why a card being bad in this situation shouldn't be a valid mark against it. Usually, cards which nonetheless end up being included counterbalance this by being very good in other situations. And that said, in this specific case, you can, as you said, just hold back some fetchlands.

I should amend my statement to say "entirely" or "largely" based on the card in question being a bad topdeck.

Yes, being a bad topdeck is a mark against a card, but a small one. I'm just tired of seeing people dismiss cards because they're bad topdecks. If being a bad topdeck was enough reason to dismiss a card, well, could you imagine Survival without Squee, Goblin Nabob or Cephalid Breakfast without Dragon Breath?

spirit of the wretch

02-02-2010, 05:05 AM

No, they're not antisynergistic. Both cards benefit from landfall triggers, and are actually fantastic when drawn together. What happens if you never draw the Steppe Lynx you're holding back lands for? If you run Searing Blaze, there are more cards in your deck that can make those held back lands useful.

I'm sorry, but the above situations are much more likely to happen than topdecking a Lynx and have it be slightly weaker because you played a Searing Blaze a turn or two turn before. The above situations are also likely to be much more beneficial than your worst case scenario is bad.

How is it much more likely to happen, that you draw multiple of your 8 Landfall cards in the deck at the same time, than in a row? My point is, that the lands you're holding back are a resource. No matter on which Landfall card you spend them on, they are spent and thus weaken the other Landfall cards you might draw afterwards.
Even if you have Blaze and Lynx in hand and run out of lands, you might have to play the Blaze (because you have the Landfall right now), instead of spending the mana on a Goyf/Library... I think beeing dependent on Landfall limits your options.

It's so hard to trigger Landfall in a deck with 21-22 lands, 12 of which are fetchlands.

What little you lose in consistency, you more than make up for in raw power. Also, you need one landfall once to make a Searing Blaze effective. Lynx requires lots of landfall triggers to be fully effective.

I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

I've also never advocated running Searing Blaze in Zoo lists that don't run Steppe Lynx.

It's not very hard to trigger Landfall, it's just hard to trigger it multiple turns in a row. Even with 21/22 lands. Especially if 12 of them are fetchlands.

So what? Most cards in Zoo are bad in it's worst matchups. That's why those decks are the worst matchups.

True, but I'm not convinced, that the benefit in other MUs really is that heavy.

Really? The topdeck defense? There should be some sort of Godwin's Law equivalent for if your argument about why a card is bad is based on it being a bad topdeck. We could have an equivalent law for people arguing for cards being good because they pitch to Force of Will.

The funny thing is it isn't that bad of a topdeck, especially if you're holding back lands like you suggest. It's no Tarmogoyf, but still...
Yeah, same old reasoning =) And I see how that can be applied to CB (or any counter/discardspell, really). My point is, that Helix never is a bad topdeck (read: always does something), while the Blaze can easily be one.

Well, I'm going to test the Blaze intensely because the effect seems really powerful. Just don't see it working out, but I'll gladly eat my words! Whatever makes this deck more powerful is highly welcome.

Nelis

02-02-2010, 06:22 AM

I should amend my statement to say "entirely" or "largely" based on the card in question being a bad topdeck.

Yes, being a bad topdeck is a mark against a card, but a small one. I'm just tired of seeing people dismiss cards because they're bad topdecks. If being a bad topdeck was enough reason to dismiss a card, well, could you imagine Survival without Squee, Goblin Nabob or Cephalid Breakfast without Dragon Breath?

Why would Squee be a bad topdeck in Survival? That might be so when there's no survival in play but even then it's less a bad topdeck than Lynx. It still has a power of 1 and you can use it as a blocker each turn.

crow_mw

02-02-2010, 06:39 AM

Why would Squee be a bad topdeck in Survival? That might be so when there's no survival in play but even then it's less a bad topdeck than Lynx. It still has a power of 1 and you can use it as a blocker each turn.

Unless you are not even playing red, like majority of current Survival builds... Being a bad topdeck is a serious issue for a card, but doesn't cross the card out immidiately. Discard spells are a bad topdeck quite often, yet they are played in almost any black deck (not like black is the strongest color or anything, but thats a different topic). Searing Blaze is a very strong early play but probably belongs more to Slight than Zoo. In Zoo it seems viable but situational, which points in the direction of SB, which in turn is probably better used by something else?

Svenyboy

02-02-2010, 08:52 AM

Hello,
at Saturday is Legacy in Frankfurt and I wanted to play this build:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

At the moment I am not sure about 3 Chain Lightning, I think 3 are random for this card. I wanted to play the Gerry Nauer Zoo from Hanau German Magic, I saw him at the tournament and I liked the way this deck is created. I made the 8. place at this tournament (I am Sven S.) and now I wanted to play a little bit more aggro-control than my Zoo/Fast Zoo from Hanau. I would cut usually -1 Helix against +1 Chain L. but in my experience Helix is with 2 Library very very important. 1 Fireblast and 1 PoP are the finisher in this deck, it looks like a good split to finish the game. Do you think this build looks solid?

umbowta

02-02-2010, 09:28 AM

Do you think this build looks solid?

I would be okay with piloting that, except for the Scalding Tarns. Do you have Windswept Heaths to put in here?

Also, in my experience Chain Lightning is the better of the two when comparing it to Helix. Your list is more burn heavy than normal so you'll likely be wanting to end the game with multiple burn spells. At half the CC, Chain is better suited to your build especially when your drawing extra cards off Sylvan Library.

Right now you're looking a little too Sligh if you want to play a" little bit more aggro-control".

Svenyboy

02-02-2010, 09:47 AM

I have Windswept Heath but I think its very important to get always the basic mountain. I see a lot of builds running KotReliquary but I find cc3 is very hard to cast in a meta with a lot of Canadian Thresh builds. In my opinion he is to klobig and to slow. I haven't got sooooo much experience with the Library because I tested this card in only one tournament, but I know that -4 life can be a hard thing against other Aggrodecks so I think 4 Helix are necessary. The problem at the moment at this build is that you play a lot of Burn, Creatures and cards like Jitte what needs an other card to do something and the gameplan isn't really good at the moment. I think you have to decide between Fast Zoo or really Aggro-Control Zoo and my builds looks something like a hybrid. This is the reason why I asked some people who tested Zoo builds in many different variants and knows how good is Jitte for example...

umbowta

02-02-2010, 10:51 AM

I think you have to decide between Fast Zoo or really Aggro-Control Zoo and my builds looks something like a hybrid. This is the reason why I asked some people who tested Zoo builds in many different variants and knows how good is Jitte for example...

Yes, I realize your build looks like a hybrid, and now I must ask, are you trying to stay hybrid or are you trying to make the decision between what you call Fast Zoo or the more controlling mid-late game version? I can talk to you about the Hybrid because thats the way I lke to play it (even though it's not the DTB version). Otherwise, only you can make the choice.

Svenyboy

02-02-2010, 11:49 AM

I think a typicall Fast Zoo is something like this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31237
I've played a lot of Burn in combination with the best creatures in Zoo. Fast and strong, Ive shooted the burn mostly to the head and not to creatues as removal. An exclusion is Merfolk and the Mirror.

An other list what is in my opinion an aggro-control Zoo is this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31526
I think in this build you can't play really fast because you haven't got a lot of Burnspells. I think the pilot used the burnspells as removal and not as a "burnspell" thats the reason why he played Path to Exile.

In my opinion this list are very different. I have an other plan than Tom Ross build (or other Zoo list). Or what do you think about this differentiation about this lists.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-02-2010, 12:44 PM

@Svenboy: I wouldn't really worry about casting 3drops against Canadian Thresh. I tend to slow roll them anyway to not walk in to their early game tempo shenanigans. And they just can't deal with Goyf or Knight without 2for1-ing themselves anyway. 3 Chain Lightning isn't bad either, i think it's the right number myself, and it's the number I've always ran. And Kudos for running Jitte.

Also, a friend of mine Thor top 8ed the same 30ish man tourney i top 8ed with Countertop last week. Another win for Bailey's pimped out, highly opinionated, Zoo deck :)

beastman

02-02-2010, 05:39 PM

What do you all find to be the appropriate number of lands to run? Is 20 enough? Or do you generally want 21?

Svenyboy

02-02-2010, 05:45 PM

I like 21 lands with 3-4 Fireblast because it's easier to support the second blast. But only with 2 or 1 + Sylvan Library are 20 lands enough. An other exclusion is if you run Canopys because you want to sacrifice it for the card draw and I would play in this kind of builds 21 lands too.

beastman

02-02-2010, 06:37 PM

My current list is running 2 fireblast, 2 library, and 2 canopy.

hungryLIKEALION

02-02-2010, 10:13 PM

I much prefer 21 lands to 20. I've run it both ways (And even 22) but I find 21 tends to be the perfect balance.

beastman

02-02-2010, 11:28 PM

List:
Lands (20)
3 Wooded foothills
3 Windsewpt heath
3 Arid mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Creatures(22)
4 Wild nacatl
4 Kird ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Qasali pridemage
2 Woolly thoctar

Spells(18)
4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Path to exile
2 Sylvan library
2 Fireblast
2 Lightning helix

This is my current list. I don't have a sideboard nailed down, as the sideboard changes with each tournament, based on the metagame.

IrishLegend

02-04-2010, 06:51 PM

Bant Survival is becoming a popular deck. I was wondering how people are side boarding for this match-up. Or how people are planing to defeat it considering it can bring out the Loyal Retainers into Iona on turn three.

umbowta

02-04-2010, 07:05 PM

Frank The Tank

02-05-2010, 08:43 PM

Since when did a card that costs $100ish stop anyone from running it if its good?

Wargoos

02-05-2010, 08:52 PM

Since when did a card that costs $100ish stop anyone from running it if its good?

You do not choose the cards - you are chosen by them!
(Just applies for cards above the 100$/piece cap)

beastman

02-05-2010, 09:28 PM

Is that a serious question? I mean, really? If people can't find or afford a card, they play without it. Obviously goyf is an exception, because he is required to play almost any deck competitively. Loyal retainers is not remotely needed to be competetive, so not many people will be willing to shell out $50+ for a niche card.

Wargoos

02-05-2010, 09:44 PM

Loyal retainers is not remotely needed to be competetive

I don't know.
It seems that this combo pushes Bant Survival that little last bit that it needs to go from an established deck to DTW status.
A discussionworthy card, but I think we should concentrate in this thread how to deal with it, and -infact- if we really need to deal with it.(appearance of combo, possibilty of combo to REALLY wreck zoo instantly etc.)

beastman

02-05-2010, 11:24 PM

Gibsonmac

02-06-2010, 12:07 PM

Bant survival was putting up solid results long before people started playing retainers. Don't get me wrong, the combo is sick, and I love it, I just don't think a whole lot of players are going to run out to buy such a niche card for such a huge price tag.

Plus, they found a card that fills the same purpose, that is much much cheaper... don't remember it, but they talked about it in the thread a few months back...

uprite

02-08-2010, 05:26 PM

hey guys anyone tried loam lion yet? the new kird ape in world wake? But I am thinking it probably doesn't work since the deck is mainly red vs white

beastman

02-08-2010, 08:25 PM

I don't like it, generally a taiga is the ideal land to have on the first turn.

Dr.AgOn

02-09-2010, 11:38 AM

Ok, so if we compare Loam Lion and Steppe Lynx, the Lynx wins, right? He can do 4 dmg on turn two, where Nacatl can only hit for 3. And we really don't want to fetch a Savannah on turn 1 for the Lion, because most Zoo decks only run a singleton Savannah.
But what about Goblin Guide? Isn't He worh considering? Most Sligh lists run him and he's also capable of doing 4 dmg by turn two for only one red mana!

In my build the creature base looks something like this:
4*Wild Nacatl
4*Goblin Guide
4*Steppe Lynx
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Qasali Pridemage
2*Grim Lavamancer
2*Knight of the Reliquary

What do you guys think? Please comment. How many creatures do you run?

Rizso

02-09-2010, 11:55 AM

With Goblin Guides in the deck i would use way more burn to end the game as fast as possible, alot more like a Sligh Deck instead of a Zoo deck.

malden

02-09-2010, 12:51 PM

With Goblin Guides in the deck i would use way more burn to end the game as fast as possible, alot more like a Sligh Deck instead of a Zoo deck.

I agree. The issue you would run into is that on occasion Goblin Guide will give your opponent card advantage when they do hit a land. Even in a format like Legacy where most decks pack less lands, it is not good to give this advantage to your opponent since the format is so quick.

I like loam lion, but the mana base would have to be adjusted for it.

Cesarius

02-09-2010, 01:11 PM

@ Dr.Ag0n, I'd drop the KotRs, and replace them with two more GLavamancers.

That, and include a burn suite that's equivalent to a raging inferno.

Nizmox

02-09-2010, 07:24 PM

@ Dr.Ag0n, I'd drop the KotRs, and replace them with two more GLavamancers.

That, and include a burn suite that's equivalent to a raging inferno.

I don't know about that. Without the Lynx's i'd agree, but if you run Lynx you're likely going to run more fetches which makes KOTR better.
I do agree with needing 4 lavamancers though.

DrHealex

02-09-2010, 11:01 PM

Why would you want to run 4 lavamancers? You rarely want to see them in multilpes, and as far as creature removal: they don't kill much.

I personally run 2 lavamancers nowadays, and even then I'm not certain how much longer they are going to retain that spot.

KotR with Lynxs ARE a must though.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-10-2010, 01:11 AM

I've been thinking about new cards to try in this deck lately, and I've decided that I am going to test the new creature from WorldWake that tutors for Equipments. I love Jitte more than anyone, and it's a body to go with! I'm excited and I'm hoping that this new creatures proves to be fruitful.

Grillo

02-10-2010, 09:39 AM

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-10-2010, 02:48 PM

Excellent!
Even though I think the equipment tutor creature is a bit slow for this deck, I always enjoy people trying new techs and sharing the results on this forums.

And I love Jitte too!

Good luck with that.

Well i tend to play Zoo slow anyway, so it works with my playstyle. I'm not saying i won't headshot someone when i have the chance, but i like to think of Zoo as a efficient midrange deck as well, and i play it like that as well.

I just wanna try something new with the deck, and Jitte reads: you win the game if i get active, so i figured I'd try it out. I haven't been impressed with 4 Lavamancers, or Sylvan Library either. I love Library, but i usually use it on the weeks when control is present in mass. Otherwise I'm not too fond of it.

mchainmail

02-10-2010, 04:36 PM

With Goblin Guides in the deck i would use way more burn to end the game as fast as possible, alot more like a Sligh Deck instead of a Zoo deck.

Playing Goblin Guide in a format with Brainstorm, Ponder and Top just seems foolish... "yes, I would love to draw an extra card every turn you attack me"

Rizso

02-10-2010, 06:37 PM

Playing Goblin Guide in a format with Brainstorm, Ponder and Top just seems foolish... "yes, I would love to draw an extra card every turn you attack me"

Yea, and thats why Goblin Guide is more of a Sligh creature then a zoo. More burn to do the job faster before they can get anything serious out of the Guides drawback.

miko

02-11-2010, 04:35 AM

Playing Goblin Guide in a format with Brainstorm, Ponder and Top just seems foolish... "yes, I would love to draw an extra card every turn you attack me"
That's true but as Rizso mentions, its more a sligh creature and it still does not put the lands into play. Which means that we can still outrace them. Even if they draw one card more every second to third turn.

Goblin Guide just allows you to attack for six second turn if you play Lynx, too. And it makes Sligh even more straight...

Tacosnape

02-11-2010, 11:00 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-11-2010, 11:08 PM

Lynx's problem is that he's terrible at defense, and that in Zoo mirrors he's terrible as he tends to get removed with Landfall triggers on the stack. And running Lynx makes me want to go all the way: Lynx, Plated Geodude, Vinelasher Kudzu, KOTR, Scapeshift, Flagstones of Trokair, etc.

Lavamancer's problem is that he can shrink your Tarmogoyf, and multiples is a pain. And KOTR's problem is that he's yard dependent, meaning running him, Goyf, and Lavamancer all together makes you graveyard dependent, and makes yard hate good against you.

So there's an argument here somewhere for Kird Ape and Woolly Thoctar and even Loam Lion and other guys who don't get worse when your opponent wrecks your yard.

Ditto. I've argued all over this thread over Thoctar with Mr. LION and he has his advantages. So does KOTR. It's just preference.

I've been against Lavamancer since this thread started, but i eventually got to running him. I've been getting less and less results with him, so i keep cutting copies one by one.

Hell, I've even seen Zoo players board out Goyf for Relic of Progenitus and things of that sort.

hungryLIKEALION

02-11-2010, 11:49 PM

Ditto. I've argued all over this thread over Thoctar with Mr. LION and he has his advantages. So does KOTR. It's just preference. Yeah, I hope we never have to go into that again.

I've been against Lavamancer since this thread started, but i eventually got to running him. I've been getting less and less results with him, so i keep cutting copies one by one.I still don't see why people want to play this deck without Lavamancer ;\ I know people keep saying they're unimpressed with his contributions, but I have difficulty figuring out how that can be. Granted he's not really the 1 drop I usually want to play on turn 1, but he's so ridiculously powerful that I've always found making him work to be worth it.

Hell, I've even seen Zoo players board out Goyf for Relic of Progenitus and things of that sort.I've done that before.

I don't reccomend it.

IrishLegend

02-12-2010, 01:37 AM

I still don't see why people want to play this deck without Lavamancer ;\ I know people keep saying they're unimpressed with his contributions, but I have difficulty figuring out how that can be. Granted he's not really the 1 drop I usually want to play on turn 1, but he's so ridiculously powerful that I've always found making him work to be worth it.

I do agree that lavamancer needs to be in this deck. Hes there for removal, burning opponents to the face, and nerfs oppenents goyfs when you dont have one out. lol love that combat trick.
I run 4 of him but i feel i pull him when hes not needed. What a good number to run? 3 maybe?

hungryLIKEALION

02-12-2010, 03:14 AM

I always run 3, have for the last year and a half now.

IrishLegend

02-12-2010, 05:02 PM

@HungryLikeLoin
I've seen your list and I do like. How do the 3 figures work for you? Any problems?

hungryLIKEALION

02-12-2010, 11:36 PM

He's really good for maintaining threat density while also giving you something to put on the board on turn one. I'd almost always rather have him than Kird Ape.

And like I've promised in the past, I'll write that FoD primer eventually XD I've just been far too busy with school lately. ;\

Grillo

02-13-2010, 10:21 AM

I'm also playing 3 figures and I think it's the way to go. Kird Ape is a good creature, but it gets outsized very soon.
Last week I went to a small tournament (4 rounds no top8) and ended up 3-1. I beat 2 counterbalance decks (both playing nimble mongoose), 1 affinity and lost to Dark Depths Rock.

In every single game I was happy to see Figure of Destiny instead of Kird Ape. Figure is a "deal with me soon" creature that may be a little slow, but it's worth every mana spent in making it bigger. Zoo is not meant to be that fast anyway.

This is my creature configuration:

3 Figure of Destiny
2 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl

IrishLegend

02-13-2010, 05:40 PM

Whit3 Ghost

02-14-2010, 01:57 AM

This is in response to a discussion I had with Alix Hatfield about the possibility of running blue and playing a cantrip package to smooth out the deck's midgame draws. I came up with this a while ago and think that the inclusion of 6 draw spells might be worth testing.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Tundra
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [B] Savannah
2 [A] Plateau
2 [B] Taiga
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [SHM] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar

// Spells
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [BD] Brainstorm
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [R] Lightning Bolt

Fireblast/Thoctar/Figure could all be other things (Swords, Jitte, etc) and the manabase is kind of weak, but the general vibe of the deck hasn't changed. In some brief testing, I really liked what the extra draw was doing in terms of consistency.

miko

02-14-2010, 05:21 AM

Looks interesting. A lot of fetchlands + Brainstorm/Ponder has never been bad ;)
Would be interested in your testing results + observations.
Have you ever tried it in a tournament or just MWS?

Svenyboy

02-14-2010, 06:58 AM

I've tested a version like you since new year now. The idea was to have an aggressive Bant with Burn over Counter for Removal. That was the list:

Creature:
1 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

Land:
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains

I liked Rhox War Monk in this deck because he won against oll ather Aggrodecks and is an amazing creature. The manabase works and I think this deck has future. Comments and discussion about versions with U?

spirit of the wretch

02-14-2010, 07:52 AM

Interesting that you bring this up, me and my team mate Harald discussed a blue splash in Zoo last week. Well, it was more like drunken babbling, but whatever. Anyway, his point was that every manabase benefits from the inclusion of cantrips, even as a splash, the increased flexibility and better possibility to profit from your playskill.
My point was to get more beer...

Nelis

02-14-2010, 03:20 PM

I liked Rhox War Monk in this deck because he won against oll ather Aggrodecks and is an amazing creature. The manabase works and I think this deck has future. Comments and discussion about versions with U?

I don't get it. Zoo already has the best matchup against all other aggro decks. Why weaken the manabase to make that matchup even better?
Sylvan Library is your Brainstorm even though it is less flexible but at least it lets you dig much deeper for answers. Call me old fashioned but I don't see why you would put in blue.

On a different note. I played at my local tournament again, 6 rounds no top 4/8. Only eleven players attended I became 4th.

Round 1 vs Aggro Loam 0-2
Round 2 vs A deck with Gifts Ungiven and Garruks and other goodies 2-0
Round 3 vs Dreadstill 2-1
Round 4 vs RB Goblins 2-0
Round 5 vs BGW Rock 2-0 but Kitchen Finks are annoying.
Round 6 vs Belcher 0-2

My list:
//24
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

//15
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//21
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Price of Progress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Terravore - I was fed up trying to battle aggro loam so I tried a different approach this time, didn't work out either.
2 Krosan Grip
1 Swords to Plowshares

Notes:
1. I missed the Chain Lightnings. Not because I needed the burn that bad but because of Tarmogoyf never growing bigger than 3/4. So next time I'll pick the deck up I'll try to add 3 or 4.
2. I found Knight of the Reliquary too slow. I'm thinking of adding 2 Wooly Thoctars next time or forget about the 3 cmc slot (opens up space for Chain Lightning).
3. Every time I play this deck I dislike Horizon Canopy more and more. Today I lost the 2nd game vs Belcher because of it. It hurt me in multiple ways: I took 2 damage extra from it, I couldn't play out an extra creature (a fetch land or a forest dual would have been better) and I had Kird Apes die because they were only 1/1. Otherwise I would have been able to deal with his 14 tokens. I know this is just one specific situation but in other matches too my Kird Apes were of no use because Horizon Canopy is no Forest.
4. I think that Price of Progress in the SB will be replaced. There's always other sideboard cards that I find more important to side in and then there's no room to put them in too.
5. I haven't been able to use Engineered Explosives so they will stay in for now.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-14-2010, 07:13 PM

1. I missed the Chain Lightnings. Not because I needed the burn that bad but because of Tarmogoyf never growing bigger than 3/4. So next time I'll pick the deck up I'll try to add 3 or 4.
2. I found Knight of the Reliquary too slow. I'm thinking of adding 2 Wooly Thoctars next time or forget about the 3 cmc slot (opens up space for Chain Lightning).
3. Every time I play this deck I dislike Horizon Canopy more and more. Today I lost the 2nd game vs Belcher because of it. It hurt me in multiple ways: I took 2 damage extra from it, I couldn't play out an extra creature (a fetch land or a forest dual would have been better) and I had Kird Apes die because they were only 1/1. Otherwise I would have been able to deal with his 14 tokens. I know this is just one specific situation but in other matches too my Kird Apes were of no use because Horizon Canopy is no Forest.

+1!!!

I've been preaching things like these for a long, long time.

hungryLIKEALION

02-14-2010, 07:35 PM

I wouldn't play 24 creatures, you need more room for burn/removal.

yadda

02-14-2010, 10:26 PM

My comment goes to the above poster talking about not having used EE and that he lost to Aggro Loam which is one of the matchups where EE really shines. if your trying to fight Aggro Loam, side your EEs in. Trust me.

Dr.AgOn

02-15-2010, 01:46 AM

Naya Zoo

Main
4*Wooded Foothills
4*Windswept Heath
4*Arid Mesa
2*Plateau
2*Taiga
2*Savannah
2*Mountain

4*Wild Nacatl
4*Goblin Guide
4*Steppe Lynx
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Qasali Pridemage
2*Grim Lavamancer
2*Knight of the Reliquary

4*Lightning Bolt
4*Path to Exile
4*Reckless Charge
2*Sylvan Library
2*Fireblast

Board
2*Umezawa's Jitte
4*Pyrostatic Pillar
3*Krosan Grip
3*Pyroblast
3*Gaddock Teeg

This is the list I used this weekend and we just played 5 rounds for a GP Madrid Trial. I went 4-1-0 and then Top 8, but got kicked out in the semifinals.
1. I really loved the Reckless Charges and they even push the goyf to 4/5.
2. Knight is the Best cc 3 creature in the world!! Woolly Thoctar can Never Beet him!
3. Horizon really sucks. But my mana base was pretty cool and often I could hit with a 4/5 for Three or more turns.

Next Time I'll go:

-4 Goblin Guide
+3 Magma Jet
+1 Grim Lavamancer

allthough the turn 2 Jitte + turn 3 Goblin and equip is sexy ^^

Nelis

02-15-2010, 04:43 AM

Ok, having taken into account my experience of late and your comments I have made the following changes:

- 2 Knight of the Reliquary
- 2 Horizon Canopy

+2 Chain Lightning
+1 Windswept Heath (I chose this one and not Arid Mesa because I want to improve the chance of fetching a forest when facing Blood Moon strategies (Dragon Stompy))
+1 Savannah

That would make:

//22
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage

//17
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

I actually would like to add one more Chain Lightning. This means getting rid of either a Kird Ape or a Grim Lavamancer. I'm a big fan of both. Which one to cut? I don't want to get rid of non creature spells. Or should I just leave it at this.

My comment goes to the above poster talking about not having used EE and that he lost to Aggro Loam which is one of the matchups where EE really shines. if your trying to fight Aggro Loam, side your EEs in. Trust me.
I think I actually did but am not 100% sure. But I never drew them the whole day anyway.

Dr.AgOn

02-15-2010, 11:17 AM

You're playing 11 fetchies, but not a single Steppe Lynx?? Try Steppe Lynx instead of Kird Ape.

And I would cut 1 Grim Lavamancer, because you don't want to see them in multiples or in your opening hand.
Also, I would replace 1 swords with the fourth path, cut 1 Taiga for the fourth Arid Mesa and replace the Figures with Knight of the Reliquary.

Nelis

02-15-2010, 01:00 PM

I won't play Steppe Lynx for the following reasons.
1. It's the worst topdeck ever.
2. Running Lynx will the goblin and merfolk matchups because I can't take on the control role.
3. Red and green are the most important colors for all 1 drops i don't want to be forced to play a Steppe Lynx turn 1 when there's also a Wild Nacatl in my hand.

I don't want to run Knight of the Reliquary like I stated above.

I'm sorry but those suggestions are of no use to me. I don't want to offend you but your approach towards the deck is totally different from mine and I don't think you've read all my posts. But I understand why you make the suggestions when I look at your decklist. It's just that I am not looking to change the whole concept of the deck (and in my opinion make it weaker by running Stepe Lynx) but I want to tweak my deck a bit because I'm very happy with the way it works now.

Whit3 Ghost

02-15-2010, 01:55 PM

Sylvan Library is your Brainstorm even though it is less flexible but at least it lets you dig much deeper for answers. Call me old fashioned but I don't see why you would put in blue.
Blue smooths out your draws way more than a mediocre two-of does. Setting up your next two-three draws with Brainstorm/Ponder turn 3 is way better tempo wise than dropping Sylvan and the blue draw is also much better in the late-game because it does things immediately.

Nelis

02-15-2010, 02:06 PM

Blue smooths out your draws way more than a mediocre two-of does. Setting up your next two-three draws with Brainstorm/Ponder turn 3 is way better tempo wise than dropping Sylvan and the blue draw is also much better in the late-game because it does things immediately.

If you think the benefits outweigh the downsides then by all means play Brainstorm. To me it's not worth it. Sylvan Library makes me finish the game in midgame and that works for me.

mmmetaphor

02-15-2010, 02:29 PM

Ok, having taken into account my experience of late and your comments I have made the following changes:

- 2 Knight of the Reliquary
- 2 Horizon Canopy

+2 Chain Lightning
+1 Windswept Heath (I chose this one and not Arid Mesa because I want to improve the chance of fetching a forest when facing Blood Moon strategies (Dragon Stompy))
+1 Savannah

That would make:

//22
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage

//17
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

I actually would like to add one more Chain Lightning. This means getting rid of either a Kird Ape or a Grim Lavamancer. I'm a big fan of both. Which one to cut? I don't want to get rid of non creature spells. Or should I just leave it at this.

I think I actually did but am not 100% sure. But I never drew them the whole day anyway.

If you're removing all your maindeck 3 cc drops I think its safe to drop down to 20 land.

troopatroop

02-15-2010, 03:12 PM

I won't play Steppe Lynx for the following reasons.
1. It's the worst topdeck ever.
2. Running Lynx will the goblin and merfolk matchups because I can't take on the control role.
3. Red and green are the most important colors for all 1 drops i don't want to be forced to play a Steppe Lynx turn 1 when there's also a Wild Nacatl in my hand.

1. This can be alleviated by playing Reckless Charge, and saving Fetches.
2. Running Kird Ape will (hurt) the Storm, and combo matchups, because he doesn't do enough.
3. Alter the manabase a bit. You can still play Wild Nacatl turn 1 off Savannah for turn 2 Lynx. Then you play a fetchland, Reckless Charge, and attack for 10. Kird Ape can't do that. He improves the non-aggro matchups, and we're already great against creature decks.

hungryLIKEALION

02-15-2010, 04:42 PM

If you were playing lynx you'd want to play that on t1 more than a nacatl, since lynx's window of awesome shrinks with every turn, while Nacatl's stays open the full game.

troopatroop

02-15-2010, 04:45 PM

hungryLIKEALION

02-15-2010, 04:46 PM

Well I was speaking more generally, given not a lot of people run reckless charge.

Nelis

02-15-2010, 05:23 PM

If you were playing lynx you'd want to play that on t1 more than a nacatl, since lynx's window of awesome shrinks with every turn, while Nacatl's stays open the full game.

Yes, that's what I meant but not specifically said. This means that the deck makes decisions for me instead of me making the decisions.

1. This can be alleviated by playing Reckless Charge, and saving Fetches.
2. Running Kird Ape will (hurt) the Storm, and combo matchups, because he doesn't do enough.
3. Alter the manabase a bit. You can still play Wild Nacatl turn 1 off Savannah for turn 2 Lynx. Then you play a fetchland, Reckless Charge, and attack for 10. Kird Ape can't do that. He improves the non-aggro matchups, and we're already great against creature decks.

Playing Lynxes might make it a bit faster but there's risks involved. I'll try to explain. The biggest problem as with any deck is that I have to mulligan when the colors of my lands do not correspondent with the cards in hand. With a deck with Lynxes I also have that risk but now I'm also adding the risk that I do not have fetch land and have to mulligan. Or if I don't mulligan (say I have two non-fetch lands in hand) then with a Lynx I am in the same situation as if it were a Kird Ape. But the big difference is that if I do not draw a land next I have a 0/1 Lynx instead of a 2/3 Kird Ape (or a 1/1 Kird Ape if I control no forest). Besides by playing Reckless Charge it means that I play even more cards that are bad topdecks.

It's just that all these little things and the things I mentioned before add up and that's why I don't like a build with Lynxes. Playing stuff like lynxes and Reckless Charge turn the deck in an one trick pony. The problem with one trick pony decks is that they are easier to disrupt and quicker to fail. That's why I think those 'improvements' actually weaken the deck overall.

If you're removing all your maindeck 3 cc drops I think its safe to drop down to 20 land.

That's something to consider, thanks.

Nelis

02-15-2010, 05:33 PM

Actually, you'd much rather lead with Nacatl in that line of play. You're still swinging for the same amount of damage, and it disguises the amount of damage you could be dealing next turn. It could be the difference between them tapping out to play turn 1 Top or holding mana for STP.

Reckless Charge ALSO helps with this. Topdecked Steppe Lynxes can actually steal games, as opposed to always sucking.

As opposed to Kird Apes?

A top decked Steppe Lynx can steal games if you have a fetch to put in play.
If you don't have a fetch but only a non-fetch than it's just as good as a Kird Ape. But if you need two turns to finish your opponent off than Kird ape is better because you need to draw another land the 2nd turn you want to attack.

I really don't understand why you like Lynxes more. They're much more luck dependant. I think we have to agree to disagree onthis one.

Bokonon

02-15-2010, 11:56 PM

Heya all,

I've lurked through this thread for months and figured I'd finally get myself registered and start joining the conversation. First of all, just wanted to thank you all, esp Bailey and Lion, for your advice on the deck. It's given me a pretty good start.

Anyway, so there's zilch for Legacy in my area (no local card shop to speak of for miles), and I'm trying to prep myself for the 5k in Indy here in a month or so. I guess my problem is I don't really know the usual metas of these large tourneys and how to prioritize my sideboarding. Thanks to my just-starting-up team, I've gotten a lot of practice against the gamut, but I guess I need some assistance tweaking out how I should weight my board.

My build is pretty much the standard model: 21 land, 21 creatures (Nacatl, Ape, Goyf, Qasali, 3 Lavamancer, 2 KotR), 15 removal (4 Bolt, 4 Chain, 3 Helix, 4 Path), and complete with the midgame accoutrements (2 Sylvan, 1 Jitte). My testing board right now is:

Sideboard
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Krosan Grip
2x Price of Progress
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Now, I know that over the course of the past 2000+ posts there have been plenty of discussions over sideboard cards. I know the general list of what is used against what, but I guess what I am wondering from you more large-tournament-seasoned guys is what, specifically, is the meta I should expect in Indy and how do I prepare for it? With the large amount of zoo and other "fair" decks showing up at recent tournaments it seems like common sense would be to expect more players to pick up ANT, etc, and that's why I put in the 3 Teegs. I really want to find a place for EE with how prominent Loam's becoming, but what do I take out for it? Price of Progress?

I guess the main point comes down to the Teegs. Reading the worldwide meta lists like over in the Format discussion forum I see the combo percentages surging from normal, but I don't know if that kind of thing is localized or if the meta is yet truly globalized? This is my first >big< legacy tournament I'm planning on, so I guess I just want to have a good idea.

Well, anyway, nice to actually start in posting, and thanks for any advice.

Dr.AgOn

02-16-2010, 12:49 AM

Your sideboard looks really good. I don't know how the Meta is in Indy, but where I live a playset of Pyrostatic Pillars in the board helped my Combo and burn MUs a lot.

@Nelis:
With Steppe Lynx I can now keep the Hands I usually would have mulliganed. Those 4 Land hands and à Steppe Lynx can win games with ease. I did about 12 dmg on AVERAGE in à games with just that One Card. And tbh, playing 12 fetchies means You're always able to Save à fetchie for later.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-16-2010, 04:39 AM

@Bokonon: Thanks for the praise. Sorry if I've seemed like a dick over the thread, Magic is one of the few things i feel strongly about when it comes to card choices. I remember back in this thread people suggest cutting red from Zoo and adding Blue. /wrist

Make Chain Lightning a 3of, and Lightning Helix a 4of and then your deck seems about right. And i run a Jitte and 2 Library as well. I switch em out though depending on what kind of meta is present. And if it's aggro i usually just cut the 2 Library and add my second Jitte and another Chain.

Nelis

02-16-2010, 07:01 AM

@Nelis:
With Steppe Lynx I can now keep the Hands I usually would have mulliganed. Those 4 Land hands and à Steppe Lynx can win games with ease. I did about 12 dmg on AVERAGE in à games with just that One Card. And tbh, playing 12 fetchies means You're always able to Save à fetchie for later.

I understand that it could work that way but that's exactly how I do not want to play the deck. You would steal some games with that tactic but you will also lose games. In the above scenario all it takes is to screw up your win is 1 removal card for your Lynx. That leaves you with 2 other cards which are never enough to put pressure on your opponent especially if those two cards are not creatures. I also don't see myself holding back lands because sometimes you cannot afford to hold back lands. I mean I have 11 fetch lands and most times I can't hold them back because I need them. Although I realize that running a card like Figure of Destiny has something to do with that. Again I understand your points but they just don't work for me.

I guess the main point comes down to the Teegs. Reading the worldwide meta lists like over in the Format discussion forum I see the combo percentages surging from normal, but I don't know if that kind of thing is localized or if the meta is yet truly globalized? This is my first >big< legacy tournament I'm planning on, so I guess I just want to have a good idea.

If combo is on the rise (ANT) in your meta I would definitely recommend putting in a 4th Teeg. I've played ANT a couple of times and even with Teeg it's hard to win. The best play is to burn them as quickly to get them as low as possible on life and hoping to land a Teeg turn 2. Don't start with a creature turn 1. If I would be good at playing control I would pick up a control deck when I go to a big tournament in Holland. But I'm not, so I'll always play aggro.

I don't think the meta is globalized yet. In Holland ANT is much more present than anywhere else (and doing good) Aggro Loam used to be a deck to beat (or at least a very strong contender) but its already of the map while it just recently is became a deck to beat on this forum. But then again in Holland Countertop isn't that popular.

Madrid is going to be very interesting. I think combo (ANT) is going to be be the deck that will put up the best results. I expect at least 1 Dutch player top 8ing with ANT.

Bokonon

02-16-2010, 02:24 PM

Thanks for the quick info guys. Anyway,

@Bailey
I've waffled back and forth on the CL vs. Helix a couple times, and maybe it's just because of the decks I've been playtesting against and how a friend of mine plays, but it's often seemed to me that the 2 mana vs 1 mana is more relevant than the instant vs. sorcery. A lot of times, I'm using my burn to clear out potential blockers, so since I can't do it in combat anyway as a "trick" and still get damage through, the sorcery hasn't felt as large of a limitation as it could be. Yeah, swinging a Nacatl into a vital Goyf and bluffing out the extra damage or being able to kill the Goyf in combat where I couldn't be able to before is nice, but it seems that comes up less often, and the trade had better be darn good to accept the 1-for-2. Yeah there are a few times that a creature comes down in the opponent's turn that I need to have killed on the spot, or that gets vialed in in combat before blockers, but again, I've not really gotten a handle on how often that ends up being relevant. It seems most of the creatures that absolutely must die on the opponent's turn (Magus of the Tabernacle, etc) can only be handled by path anyway, and the only matchups that really abuse Vial are Goblins, Fish, and what, Landstill? And for that, I've not yet been able to justify the curve problems that are caused by a situation where you get the t1 Nacatl, t2 Pridemage, and then need to burn t3 for removal. If I have chain, I can burn the blocker and drop a Goyf after combat. With helix, yeah I get the life swing, but I also lose some tempo on my drops.

@Dr.Agon/Nelis
I guess my problem is with dedicated board space for it. I think ANT and its ilk will be more prominant than in, say, 5k's from a year back, but I don't necessarily think they'll become format defining. We have a terrible matchup against ANT/Belcher, and even with options like Teeg it's still a low chance that we'll get one down while it's still relevant to keeping us alive. I've put in 3 Teegs, but I can't really rationalize putting more than 3 SB hate cards against it with such an unknown factor. If I did, it'd probably be the 4th Teeg, but I guess even more the question is, can 3 (or even 4) Teegs/Pillars be game-swinging enough to bring our matchup up to a decent even at least? If not, I'm not sure that it's worth running >any< Teegs and writing the matchup up to a lottery on the off chance I can get through it. I dunno. I hate leaving any part of my game to chance.

Nelis

02-16-2010, 05:35 PM

@Dr.Agon/Nelis
I guess my problem is with dedicated board space for it. I think ANT and its ilk will be more prominant than in, say, 5k's from a year back, but I don't necessarily think they'll become format defining. We have a terrible matchup against ANT/Belcher, and even with options like Teeg it's still a low chance that we'll get one down while it's still relevant to keeping us alive. I've put in 3 Teegs, but I can't really rationalize putting more than 3 SB hate cards against it with such an unknown factor. If I did, it'd probably be the 4th Teeg, but I guess even more the question is, can 3 (or even 4) Teegs/Pillars be game-swinging enough to bring our matchup up to a decent even at least? If not, I'm not sure that it's worth running >any< Teegs and writing the matchup up to a lottery on the off chance I can get through it. I dunno. I hate leaving any part of my game to chance.

I also hate leaving any part to the game to chance so that's why I play four. But if you think you still don't have a chance (and I admit it's very likely) then I would play none and dedicate those slots to other matchups. But Teeg is also very strong against White Staxx and Landstill and Dredge. That's why to me, especially in a big 'random' tournaments, 4 is the right number.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-16-2010, 08:27 PM

@Bokonon: Idk, in my opinion 4 Helix is a MUST because Zoo is the best deck in the format now. It can also steal wins against combo if the player isn't that great.

Chain can be throw back, which is a problem in some situations. I've read about Lands shooting it back at a game winning Nacatl. And most Zoo players will fetch, Taiga Plateau as their first fetches.

That's just what i think.

hungryLIKEALION

02-16-2010, 09:37 PM

I think saying Zoo is the best deck in the format, while possibly true a few months ago, is no longer true. With NO the bant countertop decks have managed to make that matchup 50-50 or worse for us, which has substantially harmed this deck's standing within the format.

I'm currently in the process of completely retooling my list to target this matchup; I'll let you all know what I come up with as soon as I'm done.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-16-2010, 10:32 PM

But you know what i mean when it comes to Helix and Chain. That was my main point.

hungryLIKEALION

02-16-2010, 10:50 PM

Yes, and that's one of the main things I've always agreed with you about.

But really, I just hate chain lightning.

Bokonon

02-17-2010, 10:51 AM

Fair enough. Yeah, I guess with the mirror becoming more and more common the threat of having it chained back on you does come into play. I guess I'll try it out both ways again against a few matchups and see where I end up.

[Ben]

02-17-2010, 06:19 PM

Mainboard:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Punishing Fire
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Path to Exile
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Lightning Helix
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Treetop Village
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
# 60

Sideboard:

4 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
# 15

What about this list that made top2 (and byes) for Madrid ?
It's heavier in creatures and it plays the "combo" punishing/grove (imported from extended). After a quick testing against merfolk, CB and zoo "mirror", it's clear that this list is made to beat mirror and is really efficient against CB (thanks to noble + figure or whatever).
The mini-combo can punish a greedy player who played NO CB, can work around many problematic creatures with recursion (goblins I am thinking of you ! Dredge too !) and except it's a really bad magma jet without grove, I can't see nothing but benefits.

The sideboard should be adapted to local/global metagame but the maindeck is made to take advantage and is more "mid-range" without sacrifying too much to the beatdown plan (I still win on turn 4-5).

The price of progress missed me from the sideboard but with so many non-basics, I don't know if it's really a good plan to work with them anymore.

Just tell me what you think about it :) !

Kanabo

02-18-2010, 02:04 AM

Can anyone please tell me the correct number of sylvan library's to run?

thanks.

laststepdown

02-18-2010, 02:24 AM

i haven't played legacy since 2004

stopped by forum to see ZOO (the deck i got a philly bye because of) in a DTB???? awesome

chain lightning sucks

goblin legionarre is always a 2for1 (as compared to figure, tough choice agreed)

one thing i was using instead of cursed scroll was isochron scepter, 99% of the time dropping a helix'd scepter was GG against goblins as long as you're not the intellectual equivalent to a cement block

Kird Ape

02-18-2010, 02:52 AM

Initial builds had 2 Sylvans. If you play with the Steppe Lynx, I suggest 3. This allows you to exploit the landfall ability. I'm not sure if people realize how powerful Library is. Think about a free Ponder, every turn.

Loxodon Baileyarch

02-18-2010, 02:55 AM

So i got lucky enough to get a foil Torment Lavamancer tonight. And a friend picked up one of the old DCI Lightning Bolts misprinted. It's hot as hell. My deck will be going in the pimp thread soon.

Svenyboy

02-18-2010, 04:45 AM

I've tested this build for 2 weeks now against different a lot of decks and want some comments what do you think about it:

Creature:
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning

Planeswalker:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Land:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

-> This build is so awesome. First I tested this deck without 3 Hierarch for 3 Lavamancer. But I didn't like it because Lavamancer isn't good with 12 Instant and 4 Sorcery spells and the idea with this deck is to have big threads and not to be aggressive. Hierarch is very good because he fix you to play KofR Turn 3 and has big synergie with Figure. I l ike the Elspeth because it can win alone. We want to pump normally maybe some jump blocker for tombstalker or something else but I like the pump ability. I think one is solid. HCanopy is good too in this build because you can draw a card and pump your knight and it is no problem to sac it with 3 Hierarch. The other choices seems normally. Any comments?

Glorfindel

02-18-2010, 07:32 AM

We want to pump normally maybe some jump blocker for tombstalker or something else but I like the pump ability.
You apparently forgot that you can activate the abilities of planeswalker only at sorcery speed (i.e. during your own turn)?

Svenyboy

02-18-2010, 11:28 AM

I know?!?! And what do you want to say with that?

Dr.AgOn

02-18-2010, 11:29 AM

@Glorfindel
I think Svenyboy meant, chump Blocker, Not Jump blocker. He didn't say anything about instant speed.

How come recent lists run Noble Hierarch? Aren't the exalted from Pridemage and Lavamancers enough to Win the goyf wars?And most Sligh lists don't even run Goyf anymore.

Besides, aren't there better one drops than Hierarch??

[Ben]

02-18-2010, 11:30 AM

Can we focus on the "new techs" of Zoo ?
Like the come back of figure of destiny (here for which match-ups ?), the decline of kird ape, the inclusion of the punishing/grove mini-combo, the inclusion of 1-of like Elspeth or the decline of Chain lightning (bad in the mirror) ...

We have a GP to prepare :).

Svenyboy

02-18-2010, 03:02 PM

Oh yeah, I mean chump blocker xD well Hierarch can help to cast a knight turn 2 and helps figure. Without Hierarch you have a worst Aggro Loam MU cause Wasteland + Life from the Loam kills you and Knight with Figure aren't good draws when you dont have 3 mana in play. In this situations noble hierarch helps. I tried Punishing Fire but I didnt like it. The reason why Punishing Fire Combo was good in Extended was that there was a lot of Faeries and fast decks but you see now that nobody plays this Combo more because 4 damage for 5 mana isnt good enough and is very slow in 1.5. But I like the way Zoo is developing cause now you dont have a stupid fast Burn/Creature Zoo what lost always against some War Monk actions. I want to start a discussion about this kind of Zoo:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29647

IrishLegend

02-18-2010, 03:17 PM

In my opinion I think the way where going with this deck is stupid. We're supposed to drop efficient creatures from the start, being Lynx, Kird Ape, Nacatl just to name a few. Tell how Noble Hierarch is going to help turn one being a 0/1 and eveything is cheap as hell in this deck already.
We play the best burn/removal already so for the Punishing Fire/ Burnwillow combo 1 we can't fetch for the Burnwillows. 2 If we cant draw the burnwillows, punishing fire is a bad burn spell by itself. 3 I dont think we want are opponents gaining life, thats why we play with path instead of swords.
As for the planeswalkers Im not going to say much Im willing to test a Elspeth or an Ajani.
If you think this is the ways we should be going with this deck explain why. Tell us match ups it going to help, Im not trying to be a dick. I would like to know for the future of this deck.

Draener

02-18-2010, 04:36 PM

As I see it, Zoo has only has one big problem: Combo.

It destroys most aggro decks, and can often burst down a control player before they stabalize.
By running slower, more expensive threats you are diluting zoo's game plan of 'Kill them fast'.
This in turn hurts both the combo and control matchup's for the benifit of better aggro matches,
which you should allready do well in. Perhaps in an extremely aggro heavy meta this list would
do well, but such a meta is probably not a commonplace.

Svenyboy

02-18-2010, 06:01 PM

The midrange Zoo is better against a lot of U builds in the meta. With the fast Zoo you see rhox war monk, have no ptoe and say: scooop.
Canadian Thresh is better against fast Zoo because it has lightning bolt and sometimes a clique and the thresh player can handle your creatures. but a Knight or a big Figure is a problem for U players and thats the reason why this deck is going to be more midrange then fast.

Curby

02-18-2010, 06:37 PM

Yeah, if you want to go all out you can play Goyf Sligh. Certainly, there is a middle ground on this continuum and you can tweak it to be somewhere in between. If we can get some consistency out of being a bit slower though, I'd say that's worth it.

IrishLegend

02-18-2010, 07:24 PM

I play the fast version of zoo. in my list I run 2 KoTR and 3 Figures. Besides the obvious 4 Tarmogoyfs with these 9 creatures I have no problem going into the mid/late game. The problem with are decks going more mid game, is that control will be a harder match for us because there gameplan is to stablize by then.

memnarch

02-20-2010, 11:53 PM

Excuse me if this has been mentioned before but what is your guys take on Loam Lion? Isn't this the white version of Kird Ape? Seems real good.

Curby

02-21-2010, 12:04 AM

(1) Forum search for the win
(2) Lots of people are bearish on Kird Ape, so what are you gonna do with more of a mediocre card?
(3) "Seems real good." Why?

(In short: no, don't use it.)

yadda

02-21-2010, 01:02 AM

Loam Lion is actually strictly better than kird ape. Well that might be an opinion but it offers two benefits over kird ape:

1) its not red; the fact that it doesnt get blue blasted is relevant.
2) given the direction modern zoo lists are going the fact that it costs W instead of R is beneficial. any time i dont open on Wild Nacatl that i lead on a fetch i fetch plateau so as far as having to fetch a different land T1 i don't see that argument at all. the bigger benefit is that basic plains is by far the best basic in your deck and with the inclusion of loam lion it gets even better. (this is because you have infinitely more red sources than white so wasteland on white source hurts alot more than wasteland on red source).

Im not saying we should all go run 4 of them as an auto include, but if you need 2 more one drops after your 4 WN 3 Figure 3 Lavamancer, well loam lion is probably your best bet.

Dr.AgOn

02-21-2010, 04:25 AM

We already got another one drop besides Nacatl:
Steppe Lynx! And it's far better, too. Besides, no good Control player blasts a Kird Ape.

Here's a list I'm gonna try on our next big tournament. In my opinion it is well balanced between consistent turn one drops, early burst damage and midgame threat density. Please comment!!

Main
4*Wooded Foothills
4*Windswept Heath
4*Arid Mesa
2*Plateau
2*Taiga
2*Savannah
2*Mountain

4*Wild Nacatl
4*Steppe Lynx
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Qasali Pridemage
2*Grim Lavamancer
2*Figure of Destiny
2*Knight of the Reliquary

4*Lightning Bolt
4*Path to Exile
4*Reckless Charge
2*Magma Jet
2*Sylvan Library
2*Fireblast

Board
2*Umezawa's Jitte
4*Pyrostatic Pillar
3*Krosan Grip
3*Pyroblast
3*Gaddock Teeg

I don't want to Play more than 2 Lavamancers, because of Goyf and Knight, but I don't want to Cut him either. He's awesome at removing blockers and winning the goyf wars.

P.S. Did anyone notice that Grim Lavamancer with Basilisk Collar say: {R},T:Destroy target creature.

DrHealex

02-21-2010, 07:48 AM

Actually it would say "{R},T: Destroy target creature. Gain 2 life."

Also, why have you forsaken basic plains and forests? And why TWO basic mountains? In what circumstances would you want two?
I would be more inclined to advise a 1/1/1 on the basic lands and 1 less savanah, on my experiences at least...

I do agree with less lavamancers, especially with those reckless charges. It would no doubt be painful EVERYTIME that you would be forced to remove them to lavamancers.

Magma jet is an unusual choice since the difference between what you can kill at 3 toughness and 2 toughness is extremely relevant. Lightning Helix (to offset painlands and library) or even rift bolt (a much needed sorcery for goyf) seem like they would play a better role.

On your sideboard: Pyrostatic Pillar seems like a strange choice since your colors allow for a lot more self-friendly hate.

Rizso

02-21-2010, 08:22 AM

Dr.AgOn

02-21-2010, 08:29 AM

Basic Plains and Forest suck with Fireblast!! The 2 Mountains are just there to fill up my land count to 20, since 2 of each dual are enough. And I almost always fetch for the SAVANNAH on turn 1. Example: you got Nacatl, Reckless Charge and other stuff in hand. Turn 1 Nacatl, go. If you topdecked a Lynx next turn, you wouldn't benefit from the landfall ability, because you would have to fetch for white first, right? With Savannah you can play the Lynx on turn 2 with Savannah and fetch and Charge and smash for 10 in the red zone^^

Magma Jet isn't that unusual. With Reckless Charge and the tempo it brings, I'm always in topdeck mode by turn 5 max. Two Libraries aren't enough either and that's why I'd rather prefer putting two lands on the bottom of my deck than gaining 3 life..

Pyrostatic Pillar helped me a lot against ANT and creature light builds like Rock, Burn, Team America and so on. Allthough I run 4 Path, I think I'm gonna try Sulfuric Vortex in the Board, cause I can't stand Rhox and Kitchen Finks...

I might really cut the Lavamancers for 2 more Magma Jets.

Gaddock Teeg isn't primarily for Storm Combo, allthough it's good there, too. I mostly want it for the stupid Bant or No Bant or whatever they're called Decks and we got a couple of Mighty Quinn players here, too.

miko

02-21-2010, 09:02 AM

If you already play that tempo-orientated why do you not play Goblin Guide instead of Figure? I think Guide is superior to Figure, because he is almost always a shock. Why is that so? Because your opponents tend to attack you having an empty board. That's exactly when you want to have Guide to press your 2 points of damage through.

Dr.AgOn

02-22-2010, 01:32 AM

True, I like Goblin Guide, too. I even played with him for quite a time, but I really can't let my oponent draw a card each turn. With a meta full of Brainstorm, Ponder, Top etc. I really don't know if those 2 points of damage are worth it. Besides, He doesn't work well with Reckless Charge.

I don't know if I have enough one drops, but on the other hand I want to be more flexible under a Chalice at one.

Dr.AgOn

02-22-2010, 01:32 AM

Sry for double post.

Svenyboy

02-22-2010, 02:48 AM

at Dr. Agon:
I cant agree in one point. You said that Forest and Plains suck with Fireblast but you always fetch turn 1 Savannah. That sucks too when you have the 2 land hand and don't draw an other mountain for your blast.

Dr.AgOn

02-22-2010, 02:08 PM

Hmm, are you saying I should play a list without Savannahs? Or should I cut the Fireblasts?? That's totally rediculous.
I really don't want to play my Blast on turn two, so I don't see that much of a problem. And against the only MU where I might cast a turn two Fireblast - Combo - I wouldn't fetch a Savannah on turn One. And for the record: I don't always fetch a Savannah on my First turn. The most important thing about Zoo is that you gotta think ahead a bit, in order to do the most damage possible and not to fetch the wrong lands.

DrHealex

02-22-2010, 07:05 PM

Hmm, are you saying I should play a list without Savannahs? Or should I cut the Fireblasts??
I don't think you should cut the 2 fireblast, they have always felt like the right number to me.

Having more than 1 savannah just seems silly since you really never want 2 of them in play. Especially when you completely open the manabase in your deck up to nonbasic land hate such as back to basic, and blood moon, destructive flow, and others seemingly unnecessarily.

Not that it matters anyways. If you don't see ANY of that in your metagame, there is hardly a need for you to become unset in your ways. After all, we are only talking about ONE less "mountain" in your deck, and I doubt that lowers the precentages of having a turn 2 fireblast more than a couple points.

I still stand by the statement that a 1/1/1 split of basics with 1 savannah is the "optimal" mana base. That is all.

kkoie

02-23-2010, 11:08 AM

I've noticed some discussion in this thread regarding possible matchup problems with Progenitus decks. I wonder if anyone here has attempted using Retribution of the Meek as a sideboard answer?

For those not in the know:

Retribution of the Meek
2w
Sorcery
(Visions)

Destroy all creatures that have a power of 4 or greater. They cannot be regenerated.

Granted this could kill our goyfs and Knights, but we could play around that and it could be useful against other decks that pack major fatties (mirror, aggro-loam, etc).

Thoughts?

Dr.AgOn

02-23-2010, 12:27 PM

Well, I generally like the idea, because Progenitus really can be a difficult MU, but I'd rather board in Gaddock Teegs. Those are more efficient in other match ups, too.

Rizso

02-23-2010, 02:58 PM

Thinking of having 2 Stoneforge Mystics 1 jitte and a Baskelisk Collar in my board.

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitt
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library.

St3B

02-23-2010, 03:21 PM

Thinking of having 2 Stoneforge Mystics 1 jitte and a Baskelisk Collar in my board.

I had the same idea for the main deck upping the lavamancers to 4. This way you machinegun RWMs and covert the extra lives via lirbary into extra cards.

Svenyboy

02-23-2010, 04:57 PM

How good is at the moment Domain Zoo with Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant against Aggro Loam and Tempo Thresh (Wasteland/Stife)? Has this deck a chance? I mean it plays only 2 taiga and the rest one of every dual...

Rizso

02-23-2010, 05:03 PM

Have played the domain Zoo as well. While i love both Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant i rather stick with the 3c and use the the more 3c stable mana and sylvan library instead of Dark Confidant. But havent played the domain version to much.

Dr.AgOn

02-24-2010, 12:48 AM

SteakKnife

02-25-2010, 04:59 PM

Rizso

02-25-2010, 05:14 PM

Have you tested this yet? What do you expect to take out for the 4 cards?

Still waiting for my mystics to test them out. But in teory against mirror and other red decks taking out the chain lightnings for them. Geting the collar against thoes damn rhox war monks :P

But still wating for my mystics... hopefully they will arrive tomorrow. Hopefully geting it tested out on tuesday legacy evening.

lordofthepit

02-26-2010, 02:43 AM

beastman

02-26-2010, 12:31 PM

I'm not a big fan of most of the one drops (besides Nacatl and Lavamancer) or two drops (besides Goyf and Pridemage). Would it be ridiculous to maindeck some Vexing Shushers to the local Friday night game? I don't play there a whole lot, but every competitive deck I recall facing ran FOWs (mostly Countertop and Landstill).

It really depends on your meta game. If there is a lot of counter-top and other blue decks, then MD shusher isn't too bad. It also helps against chalice decks.

God, I really want to see someone play nether void against shusher.....

memnarch

02-27-2010, 07:39 PM

95% of the time your Confidants get removed before you're allowed to draw a card. On the other hand, once they're in play, they're effing good. But splashing for a playset really isn't worth it.

And regarding Tribal Flames... They mostly just do 4 dmg and are a stupid SORCERY!!
You have to play 5 different duals and won't stand a chance against wastelands.

I agree with this. I tested with confident and I found him to get removed to often. Really the way to play is to just have a high threat density. Yes chalice exists but your more likely to draw creatures first if the threat density is high enough. Its more about having Mana available to drop your threats quickly. It just really isn't worth splashing black even though it does give you Engineered Plague in the side. The deck is about getting to 3 colors safely and that's hard enough stretching it to 4 didn't work for me. You want a deck to have one straightforward attack plan. Not make it harder on yourself by color-screw.

Also on the Loam Lion VS Steppe Lynx I'm really not sold on Lynx being better. I'm not sure where I would fit them in addition to Kird ape because of how great Lavamancer and figure are. But an early 2/3 is great against a variety of decks any way you cut it. If you are playing basics you have a good chance he will stay 2/3 and not die from Lavamancer or smaller burn like magma jet like Lynx will die.

Rizso

02-28-2010, 08:38 AM

Anyone else notice the Wing shards Luis Quintana´s undefeated-day1 zoo deck sideboard, GP Madrid? Nice tech against progenitus but also Empyrial Archangel and Sphinx of the Steel Wind if reanimator gets more popularity.

Sims

02-28-2010, 10:24 AM

Anyone else notice the Wing shards Luis Quintana´s undefeated-day1 zoo deck sideboard, GP Madrid? Nice tech against progenitus tbh.

Wing shards is just a woefully underplayed removal spell in this format, period. I'm actually kind of surprised, especially with the low creature count most decks are running and Prog moving on up in the world, that people hadn't thought of it sooner. Even if they're swinging with 3 and you bolt a dude and shards the other 2 away. Card is mad good. I haven't tried it in Zoo though, to be honest, but I can't see (aside from mana issues, which i don't usually have trouble with) why it wouldn't be usable.

Mohr

03-01-2010, 02:03 PM

For those interested, I went undefeated and split the Top 4 of a 40+ man tournament over the weekend with the following build:

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nactal
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Path to Exile
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Path to Exile
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg

I posted because the build is somewhat different than many of those reflected in this forum. I'm not saying it is anywhere near perfect, but simply different. My meta has a large amount of Aggro Loam, Bant, and Merfolk so I play Tin-Street Hooligan in the main. The deck was solid, and the Pillars out of the board were a great surprise factor. They are too slow against most combo decks, but were very good against mid-range decks.

If I were to play again tomorrow, I may try a different direction by cutting 4 Rift Bolts, 3 Chain Lightnings, and 1 Jotun Grunt for 4 Goblin Guides, 2 Path to Exiles, and 2 Reckless Abandon. The Reckless Abandon give you a nice out when your Guides and Lynx become underpowered in the mid-game, while providing you with an unexpected 4 damage, or an out against War Monk.

One thing I noticed is that Goyf can be somewhat underwhelming. Obviously, if you play Jitte and Library main deck this is less of an issue. But, depending on the amount of combo, I would consider adding 1 of Tarfire and/or Seal of Fire. I understand this becomes much worse if all Merfolk builds start running 4 Goyfs as those from the 5k.

Svenyboy

03-02-2010, 08:41 AM

Well, I think in your Metagame are 4 Path to Exile definitely better than 2. And I dont think you need Tin Street Hooligan, too. Ok, Hooligan is against Loam good but against Merfolk its very bad because it isnt important to handle the Vial, your matchup is very good. And what does Hooligan against Bant? Random Jitte?

Skeggi

03-02-2010, 08:48 AM

Sven Dijt, Top 8 with Naya Zoo at GP Madrid says: 'Wasteland was MVP all day".

hungryLIKEALION

03-02-2010, 09:19 AM

I played a Zoo build with wasteland some time last year and was basically told to GTFO the thread...

Nelis

03-02-2010, 09:24 AM

It has been on my mind as well. I think I have actually mentioned it somewhere on this site.

Let's say we want to run Wastelands what would a list look like? Should Wasteland be included in the manabase (so 20/21 lands including wasteland) or should it be seen as an extra disruption card and replace a nonland card. And do we want to play 4 or is it better running less like 2 or 3?

Skeggi

03-02-2010, 09:26 AM

Why not take Sven's list to start with:

60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
23 lands

2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
26 creatures

2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Swords to Plowshares
11 other spells

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wasteland
15 sideboard cards

He said he'd cut to two Wastelands though, 3 was a bit much.

Nelis

03-02-2010, 09:30 AM

Jesus i'd seen the list but didn't realize he had them in the main as well.

By the looks of it he added 3 wasteland in favor of removal/sylvan library.

EDIT: another interesting thing about the list is that white and green are his main colors.

aldaryn

03-02-2010, 11:27 AM

In a Zoo list focused on white with 3-4 Knight of the Reliquary, I can't help but suggest playing 1 Karakas. Against reanimator you can bounce Sphinx, Iona, Blazing Archon, etc.

tpnp

03-02-2010, 01:58 PM

I was unaware that Karakas could bounce Sphinx and Blazing Archon...

*checks card*

Nope, still can't.

Having said that, it's still interesting because you can hit Iona. That alone might warrant an inclusion.

Maveric78f

03-02-2010, 04:13 PM

You'll call me crazy but has anyone tried Violent Outburst in zoo?

hungryLIKEALION

03-02-2010, 04:30 PM

No, but I'm not sure why you would want to.

Svenyboy

03-02-2010, 05:09 PM

Has anyone tested Sarkhan Vol? It is really good. I play this list atm:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sarkhan Vol
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

This list is very explosive. Furthermore you have a better Bant Aggro/Countertop matchup becuase you play Jitte and Vol. At the moment I like 4 Helix but I havent a free slot for the fourth.What do you think about it. I tested it against a lot of decks and Sarkhan Vol is good against every deck (ok, it isnt good against Burn and something like White Weenie). The only problem what I see is that it is difficult to cast espessially against Thresh and Loam. But I think against Thresh Jitte wins alone and Loam is very slow and you havent got any problems with this tier 2 deck.
Comments to Sarkhan Vol?

Rizso

03-02-2010, 05:38 PM

For a 4cc dropp i rather use Ranger of Eos, Bloodbraidlf Elf or Elspeth.

Loxodon Baileyarch

03-02-2010, 06:01 PM

WASTELAND STILL SUCKS IN ZOO! Jeez.

Eldariel

03-02-2010, 11:25 PM

Tossed together Wasted Zoo in the spirit of Sven's list, but with less dumb one-drops and more burn:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [M10] Plains (1)
1 [M10] Forest (1)
1 [M10] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Taiga
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [R] Plateau
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
2 [DD2] Fireblast
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

Of course, Wastelands present the obvious conundrum that Path to Exile is pretty huge a nonbo with them, while StP is not at all concurrent with the deck's own gameplan. Something has to give here, but I think you aren't really forced to use PtE that early and can generally afford to keep it back until you can remodel the opponent's face. Of course, StP is a consideration-worthy card too even if it's superficially at odds with the "deal 20"-gameplan. It's historically worked just fine; it still might.

Knight+Waste is as solid as ever and Knight still goes nice with Horizon Canopy (I never cared much for Savannahs since the scenarios where I fetched it were really fringe while the ability to pop Canopy for a card both, turbocharges KoR for a filtering engine, and enables leveraging manaflood hands), and it just so happens an aggressive beatdown deck is able to make quite the nice use of keeping the game at 1-2 lands; who knew?!

With how big ANT is now, I don't think you can win ignoring it or with the "4 Hope//Pray"-plan very consistently anymore, which provoked me to try Sven's approach (coupled with the SB REBs that mostly blast Counterbalances but happen to fuck up ANT's setup/bounce just fine too), and while I was skeptical, combined with your clock and the added mana disruption from Wastelands, it actually gives you decent game pre- and post-board.

I'm sure someone will point out how Gaddock Teeg and Fireblast are a nombo, but just like PtE and Waste, that isn't really that big a problem since generally, in MUs where you want Teeg, they'll either remove him or lose and it's easy enough to turn him into a roadkill as long as both sides have creatures. Most importantly, Fireblasts give another means of winning the ANT MU by just burning them too low to AN efficiently over the first two turns.

So...yeah, that's the initial experiences anyways. I'll be testing it more, to be sure. But given how damn obvious Wastes In Red Deck is, I'm kinda surprised it took a GP Top 8 to really bring it into limelight. I mean, Zoo certainly operates better at lower landcounts than most of the format and greatly prefers keeping opponent's broken cards out of the equation. I didn't find the mana consistency too big an issue since you still have 20 colored lands, and with only two Fireblasts, finding Mountains for them is practically never an issue.

One thing I absolutely disagree with Sven's list is lacking Price of Progress in his 75. That's one of the best cards in the deck against much of the field, and the addition of Wastes frankly doesn't change that since if you can keep a deck usually high on mana down on mana well enough to make Price inefficient, you should win anyways. That and Lands is apparently a rather big deck and there's very little one can do against it without Price. Of course, not having gravehate is completely unacceptable too and there should be some Crypts in the SB, but I have yet to work out where exactly.

Also, I still like Sylvan Library and the insane advantage it provides in a large number of MUs way too much to not include two.

Skeggi

03-03-2010, 02:39 AM

WASTELAND STILL SUCKS IN ZOO! Jeez.

If you look at the quarter final match where he lost to Reanimate, you see Wasteland was very, very good. Muller really had to luck out to pull out the two wins, unfortunately for Sven, he did. But it might as well have been 2-0 for Sven. Because of Wasteland.

I also advised Sven against running Wastelands. Thankfully he's a wise man and doesn't listen to me :wink:

Loxodon Baileyarch

03-03-2010, 03:05 AM

If you look at the quarter final match where he lost to Reanimate, you see Wasteland was very, very good. Muller really had to luck out to pull out the two wins, unfortunately for Sven, he did. But it might as well have been 2-0 for Sven. Because of Wasteland.

I also advised Sven against running Wastelands. Thankfully he's a wise man and doesn't listen to me :wink:

I mean if it works for others then sure. I've just NEVER had luck with Wasteland or Canopy with the deck. I won several tournaments with Zoo, but i don't think a Wasteland in my opener is what i wanna see ya know? And i would think that you would have to bump the mana base up to 21 or 22 with more Knights for it to as effective as you want it to be.

I still hold that i don't think it's a good card for Zoo, but hey people run what they want. I'm just here to advise.

Eldariel

03-03-2010, 11:42 AM

Sven played 23 lands including 3 Wastelands; I think you need about 20 lands to get your colored mana requirements right, so it does present an opportunity cost of having extra lands in the deck. On the flipside, it makes supporting higher CC creatures much easier and improves the match-ups against a large variety of archetypes (including the traditionally most difficult combo MU). It's also more in line with the historically successful red decks (generally playing 23-24 lands including 4 Waste and occasionally Ports too), which suggests to me it's on the right tracks. Though of course, we don't run Cursed Scroll and thus have less use for all that extra mana. Really, it comes down to whether you want two more spells in the deck or not. I like Knight of Reliquary quite a bit anyways given how huge it is, beating decks that can't remove it handily. Hell, I've had Knight big enough to give Phyrexian Dreadnought a pause.

Svenyboy

03-04-2010, 03:06 PM

Can anyone help me? Why play a lot of players Knight and Lavamancer in the same deck? I mean it is an antisynergie. I have many problems with that cards. For example:
Turn 1: Fetch, Lavamancer, GO.
Turn 2: Fetch, Lavamancer attack or shoot? Normally I shoot but I had the Knight in my hand and if i would remove my fetchlands for lavaamncer knight would be very small. What is the right play? Why anyone plays Lavamancer and knight in the same build?
Thanks

Rizso

03-04-2010, 03:28 PM

I play with 3 Grim Lavamancers 2 Knight of the Reliquary. For myself i focusing my Grim Lavamancers to remove none- landcards first. Most of my grim aktivations goes to creatures and then when opponent got lower life the some actiavations goes to the face but still blockers and such. I find Knight way better then the Woolly Thoctar, way bigger. Knight can also give the lavamancers a couple of extra activaction when needed. I dont see them that much antisynergy as thought they could see.

Genericcactus

03-04-2010, 03:58 PM

What do you guys think of the list that top 8ed at the Starcitygames open this past weekend? Treetop village? 24 lands?

Eldariel

03-04-2010, 04:50 PM

What do you guys think of the list that top 8ed at the Starcitygames open this past weekend? Treetop village? 24 lands?

It's Hatfields' brew so you could ask them directly. That said, it's a fine addition though I think the deck needs mana disruption more than extra threat in the landbase. 24 lands seems like a nod towards Steppe Lynx and the Fire-Fire-Bolt line-up. The curve is quite low, and with no Wastelands, I suppose you'll end up with quite a large number of lands in play vs. a controlling opponent.

It certainly helps with Lynx and with only 19 lands that don't do something else, you should still be fine much of the time. You're also better at dealing with Wastelands. I personally, at least for the time being, prefer the Wasted build but I can be wrong. Time will tell.

Can anyone help me? Why play a lot of players Knight and Lavamancer in the same deck? I mean it is an antisynergie. I have many problems with that cards. For example:
Turn 1: Fetch, Lavamancer, GO.
Turn 2: Fetch, Lavamancer attack or shoot? Normally I shoot but I had the Knight in my hand and if i would remove my fetchlands for lavaamncer knight would be very small. What is the right play? Why anyone plays Lavamancer and knight in the same build?
Thanks

I don't usually activate Lavamancer turn 2 unless opponent already has a Lavamancerable creatures in play. Generally, I wait a bit for Lavamancer to pick off unless I'm vsing combo, in which case it obviously doesn't matter since Knight of Reliquary isn't exactly your plan 1, 2 or 3.

troopatroop

03-04-2010, 05:38 PM

In regards to Wasteland, I've been running it in Naya Sligh with good results. I've been playing 23 lands, and only 3 Wastelands. There's been a stigma for awhile against running Wasteland in 3 color aggro decks, but you can still have the 20 colored lands you should be playing and be fine. It's great in every bad matchup, and works well with Steppe Lynx and Knight of the Reliquary. Zoo is a different animal, but in Sligh it's definitely fantastic. It further enhances the decks ability to punish bad draws. It may be time to look at it again.

Rizso

03-06-2010, 03:40 PM

Have you tested this yet? What do you expect to take out for the 4 cards?

I did get to test it more today. It worked really great against aggressive decks and aggro-control. Especially nice in the mirror match.

I did get to semifinal last tuesday in Copenhagen and 7th today in Malmö. Lost to 2 combodecks today, 0-2 against Aluren Combo and 1-2 against ANT, death by t1 lynx and t2 gaddock on the second game. 4 -2 Total game score.

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning'
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to exile'
2 Sylvan Library

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Board
2 Reliq of Progenitus
2 tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte

But thinking of moving 2 Gaddocks to the maindeck, removing a Chain Lightning and move a Path to exile to the board and adding an extra Ethersworn Canonist to the board.

Finn

03-06-2010, 06:48 PM

Rizso, it is antisynergy, but the cards are good enough that it is worth the occasional difficulty. The bottom line is that it is very easy to fill your gy in Legacy. Deck after deck have defied that particular difficulty.

Eldariel

03-07-2010, 12:56 AM

Rizso, if you are serious about beating Storm-combo, I suggest you add something that forces them to wait until your turn 2 to go off. Mindbreak Trap, Chalice, hell, Red Elemental Blast (mediocre as it may be there); whatever, but if you're serious about winning that MU, you need to ensure you get the time to play your hatebears.

Also, Aluren looks like a good match-up. How experienced are you with the deck's functioning? 'cause basically, if you nail the Raven Familiars, you won't lose. You need to lock Cavern Harpy on the stack to make that happen (which costs you a card), but it can be done. If you have SB Grips too, it seems very likely you should not lose there.

BreathWeapon

03-07-2010, 07:04 AM

I'm not sure how big of a departure this is from the basic Zoo philosophy of putting on a quick clock, but I've been experimenting with replacing the KoR and Lynxe slots with Mystic and Mom to give the deck a little more late game punch and early game utility. I've been testing Mom in a lot of decks, and being able to shrug off the opponent's removal after they SB in a full 8 Sword/Path or ignore burn in the mirror is just incredibly good, in addition to that she always goes toe to toe with any threats and gives you reach in the late game. The Stoneforge/Equipment package is just a replacement of the "big dumb critter" slot that usually goes to KoR or Thoctar, it eats up more slots and tempo but once it's running you just bull dozer them right over. I think it plays out more like White Weenie, except that Green was splashed for the biggest vanilla creatures and red was splashed for burn. Anyway, if anybody could provide some feed back I'd be interested in a second opinion on the deck.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
21 Lands

Finn

03-07-2010, 02:24 PM

It is a departure, sure. But you may just have a significant tributary there. Stoneforge Mystic is so nut-ass powerful that it's like having a white Mandingo. If you are playing with white, you need a damned good reason not to have the most ridiculous weenie it has to offer.

And I think the equipment package you are using is perfect too. However, in my experience 4 is too many Mystics. It slows you down some and you usually can't do much with more than 1 equipment at a time.

BreathWeapon

03-07-2010, 02:57 PM

The thing is Stoneforge Mystic is a Force of Will/Daze magnet because the opponent knows if it resolves they can't counter the Umezawa's Jitte, so he's incredibly good at baiting counters for Tarmogoyf and co. I figure if I get to the pointer where I have too many Mystics and Equipment for my own good, then I'm probably going to overwhelm anything that isn't playing Natural order.

Edit: I kind of think the "don't run too many Mystics/Jittes" argument is kind of like the old "don't run more than 3 Null Rod" argument in Vintage, the effect is just so mind numbingly powerful that you don't care about the dead cards after you resolve it; pretty much the same for Balance/Top as well.

I don't know if it's better than conventional Zoo, but it is really a ton of fun and gives you so much control over the board compared to other aggro decks.

hungryLIKEALION

03-07-2010, 06:01 PM

If I was going to run a build with stoneforge mystic (And I'm certainly interested in testing such a build, since it is so ridiculous) I'd be pretty hard pressed not to run at least one basilisk collar, given its utility with lavamancer.

But maybe I'm wrong and it's not needed. I just really like it. Also allowing stuff like Kird Ape to trade for RWM is sweet.

Antknee42

03-07-2010, 06:47 PM

I actually liked the 2 Wastelands I had main deck in my T16 Dallas deck just fine. Granted, I was playing black for bob/discard out of the board, but I basically considered them spells and not lands when constructing my deck...spells that randomly tap for mana and are free. I won at least one game 3 because of a timely Wasteland, as well as other games scattered throughout the day (keeping decks off of a color, killing a red dual so Anger is shut off, wasting a mutavault that could block, etc.)

-AA

Nelis

03-08-2010, 04:18 AM

Collar on Lavamancer is sweet!

But I wonder if a Stoneforge Mystic package is right for zoo. There's hardly any room for it unless you take out a lot of other good cards. I would be more inclined to try it in a Boros build.

BreathWeapon

03-08-2010, 04:49 AM

I didn't miss anything I cut, the 3rd Burn Spell and the 3cc creature slot really aren't pivotal to how the deck plays IMO.

Basilisk Collar is danger of cool things IMO, I don't think I'd run it short of Trinket Mage (altho' I'm not in love with Sword of Light and Shadow either, so maybe it should be reconsidered).

Mother of Runes is the nut high, nobody, and I mean nobody exerts more influence over the board than Mom in a meta where 8 Sword/Path are standard post-board and giving you non-burn reach vs Aggro-Control is just so insane.

kiwi

03-09-2010, 02:36 PM

My metagame has got a lot of tribal decks merfolks, elves, goblins and including some zombies deck 0_o .

I want to play zoo and I would like to play Volcanic fallout in sb but zoo deck has got in main deck Steppe Lynx,Qasali and grim lavamancer and these creatures dies with Volcanic Fallout,

Do you think that now is better to play 2 umenezawa jiites in sb rather than Volcanic Fallout ? or not is necessary to take sb slots vs tribal because its very good pairing for us?
Help please

jnosrati

03-09-2010, 03:42 PM

I want to know thoughts on Tamanoa and elspeth as 1 of or in board; Are they worth it?
With regard to tamanoa, i was just wondering if it would help ANY matchup. 4 chain, 4 helix, 4 bolt is a lot of damage, but it is a bit against ther general gameplan of beating down.

Also, What do you guys board out against what decks? Im playing my first big one next week and wanted some advice. It'll probably be 30-50 people. I know there will be 1 mono black, a dredge, 2 merfolk, zoo, ant, enchantress, an eva green, and possibly a stax or 2. Also, when exactly do I act vs dredge? best case scenario. I dont have much experience playing against it, or ant.

I did get to test it more today. It worked really great against aggressive decks and aggro-control. Especially nice in the mirror match.

I did get to semifinal last tuesday in Copenhagen and 7th today in Malmö. Lost to 2 combodecks today, 0-2 against Aluren Combo and 1-2 against ANT, death by t1 lynx and t2 gaddock on the second game. 4 -2 Total game score.

4 Kird ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Gaddock Teeg

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning'
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to exile'
1 Sylvan Library

4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

I have also been considering a singleton elspeth and a singleton swords in the maindeck, thoughts? thinking about taking out chain or kird ape

Svenyboy

03-09-2010, 04:43 PM

What do you think is better in a meta with a lot of ANT, Thresh and Loam. The more control Zoo with Knight and Path to Exile, maybe Library or the Zoo with more Burn and no cc3 spells?

Rizso

03-09-2010, 06:14 PM

I like the more controlish version with knight, path and sylvan as i find it more stable against the random decks then the more sligh version of zoo.

IMO i think the maindeck of zoo has a good matchup against most none-combo decks in the format and need only very little support from the board against thoes deck while it needs lot of help against the combo like ant, dredge etc. And with that, most of the board imo is going to be directed against thoes deck. I have for example 6 board cards against the ant Gaddock/Canonist/mindbreaktrap, 4 relic/crypt against dredge then for the rest just 2 Jitte and 3 Krosan Grip for the random encounters.

jnosrati

03-09-2010, 08:12 PM

Anyone have the patience fo a new primer?

Loxodon Baileyarch

03-09-2010, 08:42 PM

Anyone have the patience fo a new primer?

HEY! I like the original primer, but mostly because i helped write it :laugh:

I really do think it's outdated though, and would be game for a new primer. I'll even help if needed. Some Zoo vets need to get together and write one.

hungryLIKEALION

03-09-2010, 11:21 PM

I'm willing to write the new primer, but it's gonna have to wait until I get in the mood for it. My spring break is next week, and there's a good chance I could do it then.

Kird Ape

03-10-2010, 08:17 AM

Hatfield and Co. wrote up a really awesome primer with very detailed match-ups, card choices, and just good information. I do have the PM's of what they sent me, but I think it's only 85-90% complete. I'll have to get on their case so we can have some primery goodness.

Kird Ape

03-10-2010, 12:08 PM

Here is a very brief sample of what the Hatfield and Co. showed me. I hope that if they see this they'll get all motivated and finish it. I got this right around new years, so it is time for the boot to meet the cheek.

Zoo Primer (Overview)
Overview

Legacy Zoo is an aggressive deck in the most traditional vein, being composed mainly of creatures with a high power-to-mana-cost ratio, efficient direct-damage spells, and a straightforward manabase with which to play these cards. This archetype has existed, in various forms, since Bertrand Lestree's appearance in the finals of the first World Championship, in which he played a four-color deck that featured full sets of Kird Apes, Lightning Bolts, and Fireballs sandwiched in-between all of the powerful restricted cards available in that format.

Although Zoo has existed in Legacy since the creation of the format, it has only recently enjoyed high levels of popularity and success. The deck has ascended from relative mediocrity to solid tier-one status mostly thanks to the printing of new cards, several of which are significantly better than the cards they have supplanted. These incremental improvements in the deck's power and consistency have allowed it to compete with the rest of the decks in Legacy better than ever before.

Bokonon

03-10-2010, 06:14 PM

Well, for what it's worth, I've got an almost complete primer written up for my team's Wave that I could submit for your all's consideration. Generally, the only thing I'm missing at this point is matchup data (as I haven't been able to hit up big tournaments until this weekend at Indy), but if anyone wants to take a look feel free to send me a PM and I'll forward it on. Definitely if Hatfield et. al. is working on one, I defer to their tournament record and experience, but I think I have a pretty good handle on the deck, so just thought I'd throw this out there.

Rizso

03-11-2010, 10:07 AM

Taken my time to take up all the card and sideboard choices sees play in the Naya Version of zoo.

Card choices for zoo:

The 4 corner stones of zoo:

4 Wild Nacalt

4 Qasali Pridemage (Without Pridemage and Nacatl, zoo would never had become the beast we know today as Zoo.)

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning bolt

Other Card Choices, Creatures:

2-4 Grim Lavamancer

0-4 Knight of the Reliquary

0-2 Woolly Thoctar

0 or 4 Steppe Lynx

0-4 Kird Ape

0-4 Loam Lion

0-3 Gaddock Teeg

0-4 Figure of Destiny

0-2 Jötun Grunt

0-3 Tin Street Hooligan

Spell choices

0-4 Path to Exile

0-4 Sword to Plowshares

0-4 Chain Lightning

0-4 Lightning Helix

0-4 Rift Bolt

0-3 Fireblasts

0-3 Price of Progress

0-3 Sylvan Library

0-2 Umezawa's Jitte

Landchoices

Fetch: Arid Mesa, wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath
Duals: Taiga, Plateau, Savannah
Optional : Wastelands, Horizon Canopy, Treetop Village.
Basic Forest, Mountain, Plains

Sideboard Choices

Gravehate:
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Ravenous Trap

Stormhate:
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg (Not just a Stormhate, he is good against most of the format)
Pyrostatic Pillar
Mindbreak Trap
Thorn of Amethyst

Anti-blue:
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Vexing Shusher
Choke

Anti-swarm:
Pyroclasm
Volcanic Fallout
Engineered Explosives

Artifact/Enchanment-hate:
Ancient Grudge
Shattering Spree
Tin Street Hooligan
Kataki, War's Wage
Krosan Grip
Serenity
Reverent Silence
Harmonic Convergence

Anti-aggro
Umezawa's Jitte
Swords to Plowshares
Wing Shards

Random Stuff:
Vines of Vastwood
Sulfuric Vortex
Pithing Needle

Grillo

03-11-2010, 01:01 PM

Good post.

Id would add 0-3 Figure of Destiny to the creatures.

And I'd promote Path to Exile to the corner stones.

Off topic: I'm getting tired of earthquakes here in Chile. 7 more today (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.php).

Rizso

03-11-2010, 01:07 PM

Have seen some people not playing the path to exiles in maindeck... I for one wouldnt play without the maindecked path to exile.

HAVE HEART

03-11-2010, 01:34 PM

List without Path to Exile: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16188-Team-SPOD-January-Hassloch-Event-Wild-Cattieyote .

Grillo

03-11-2010, 02:42 PM

Yeah. I know Path to Exile is not in every deck.

But, just to share my thoughts, I really feel that Path to Exile is one of the things that separate Zoo from Sligh.
I don't want to flame though. It's just my opinion.

@Rizso: That post is really a great start for a primer. Good job.

Bokonon

03-11-2010, 05:33 PM

Well, since I've had a couple people show interest so far, I figure I'll go ahead and post up what I have. If this is too long or in the wrong place, someone smack me with an infraction or something, but I think it's pretty useful information for newcomers. Here's what I have. (Wall of text crits you for 9000 damage, you die.)

Team Bacon Legacy Zoo Primer

Archetype definition and history

Zoo, one could argue, is the perfect storm of traditional aggro decks. Unlike most quick aggressive decks that have developed in Legacy (gobbos,sligh , affinity, etc), Zoo is both fast AND stable, able to survive not only in the early game, but in the midgame as well. As an archetype, Zoo is a broad category of multi-color decks that consist of small-cost creatures combined with removal and burn to ensure damage gets through and to provide reach in the later game. Through the years zoo has existed in multiple different color combinations ranging from R/G/U, to R/G/W/B, to 5-color "domain" Zoo. However, with the printing of a single card in Shards, most of these color stratagies have gone by the wayside and R/G/W "Naya" Zoo seems to be here to stay. That card? Wild Nacatl.

Because of its need for small creatures and burn, Zoo had always existed in the realm of R/G/something, but with Nacatl, the deck now had access to a second, and even better, Kird Ape-style card that allowed a ridiculous one mana 3/3, often completely online by the time it could attack on turn 2. The addition of white to the deck also allowed builders access to the iconic 1 mana white removal spell, Swords to Plowshares, but early on there was a great deal of discussion on its inclusion, as the lifegain given to the opponent often drastically countered the clock Zoo was trying to achieve. Again, the answer came in the printing of a new card: Path to Exile, which provided the same effect but with a downside that was much less detrimental to the Zoo plan. Alara block also gave the deck access to the "Disenchant-on-a-stick" Qasali Pridemage, which speeds up the early clock and provides the deck some resilience against artifact and enchantment effects that had previously only been available through the sideboard.

Recently Zoo has seen a split in ideology, with some top players staying with a more midrange build including 3CC cards and cards like Sylvan Library, while others have moved to a faster moresligh-like build including Steppe Lynx and Fireblast.

A current more midrange-focused list might look as follows:

Maindeck

Land (21)
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Burn/Removal/Other spells (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

A more speed-focused build would be as follows:

Maindeck (Alix Hatfield, SCG 5k Richmond)

Land (24)
3 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Creatures (20)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Burn/removal/other spells (16)
3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning

Card Explanations

Dual Lands (Taiga, Plateau, Savannah) - These three on-color duals are the primary reason that the manabase for this 3 color deck can remain stable while still being fast. Having access to multiple land types (forest, plains, mountain) with your turn 1-2 lands speeds up Nacatl and Ape growth. Taiga takes precedence as it helps to both cast and pump your 1 drops and opens access to red for burn. Savannah is mostly there as a searchable singleton incase you need the land types ormana colors in a pinch.

Fetchlands (Mesa, Foothills, Heath) - Fetches are amazing. Period. Now that the deck has three on-color fetches available, it is relatively easy to push the fetch count to 10 without hurting the deck. These guys find you the dual or basic you need, and thin your deck making it more likely to draw your business spells. Yes, astifle to one of these can be a pain, but definitely worth running at least 8, if not 10-11.

Horizon Canopy - This is the weakest of the lands in the current build, and many zoo builds do not use it. It functions as a proxy to Savannah that doesn't boost Nacatl/Ape, but it does become especially useful later in the game, when you can Sylvan Library to set up your draws,draw for your turn, and then draw using the canopy to get two cards without losing the life.

Basics - I include one basic of each type as Wasteland protection. More often than not, you'll find yourself searching for these instead of the faster more mana-stableduals just to protect yourself from the nightmare that is Wasteland

Tarmogoyf - This is Legacy right? Run 4.

Wild Nacatl - An absolute house of a 1 drop. In the absence of Wasteland, this guy will almost always be online the turn he can attack. Especially nice combo'd with Pridemage. A turn 1 Nacatl, turn 2 Pridemage, swing with 4/4 exalted Nacatl puts the opponent on a pretty fast clock.

Kird Ape - Most would argue that this card, once the feared monster of aggro, is actually now one of the weaker cards in the deck. It is great turn 1/2/maybe 3, but asgoyfs and other fatties come online it loses some of its relevance and becomes relegated to playing defense. Only one less power than Nacatl, but somehow that one power makes a huge difference when it comes to mid-game trades.

Qasali Pridemage - Amazing. What at first looks like a 2/2 bear for 2 is perhaps one of the best creatures in the deck. Simply put, it solves problems. Enemy manage to get a Counterbalance up? Pridemage it. OpposingJitte's getting you down? Pridemage it. Need to have your Nacatl swing into a 3/4 goyf? Exalted will do the trick. All around a great card.

Grim Lavamancer - This unassuming card is essential to survival in longer games where opposing decks have outclassed us in card advantage. If this guy sticks he can serve to remove creatures so you can swing, or more likely, he can burn to the face to help get that last 6life in. Generally you do not want to see multiples, so I only run 3. This will typically be a lightning rod for removal.

Knight of the Reliquary - This deck's manabase and speed only support having at most 2 3-drops, and although other cards like Woolly Thoctar may be faster in the early game,KotR gets the nod because it has so much synergy with the rest of the deck (Goyf, Lavamancer). This guy gets huge fast in a format where you run this many fetches, and in a pinch he can function as Crop Rotation-on-a-stick to find that land you need and put another in the GY for Lavamancer to eat.

Steppe Lynx - In faster sligh-like builds, this is slotted into the Kird Ape spot, and is often paired with Fireblast (see below) and a higher land count to abuse the landfall. This results in a much more explosive deck (t3 goldfish as opposed to the typical turn 4-5 with a more midrangey Zoo as above), but sacrifices some consistancy for the speed.

Lightning bolt - Zoo without Bolt effects is not Zoo, and if you have access to the best 1 mana burn spell in the game, why >not< use it?

Chain Lightning - Another 1 mana for 3 damage burn, but at sorcery rather than instant speed. It also has the troublesome (but rarely relavant) caveat that if the opponent has RR available they can send it back at you. Good enough, but definitely subpar to Bolt. It's here because there's nothing better in the 1 Red removal department.

Lightning Helix - Bolt grafted to Healing Salve is especially useful, in that it gives the deck more instant speed removal and provides a powerful advantage against the mirror and other aggro decks. Lifegain works against the clock of other aggro and gives you more breathing room to take them out.

Path to Exile - Amazing creature removal. We run these over Swords because the downside is less painful to our game plan, but do not forget that the downside is there. There will be times where you get rid of that creature, only to find that the extraisland that you gave them lets them kill you next turn. However, nothing says fun like exiling a Dreadnought or Marit Lage leaving a deck helpless to your onslaught of creatures.

Fireblast - Used as a quick finisher in more explosive Zoo builds.

Sylvan Library - this card, for two mana, provides incredible stability to our draw step and even gives us a Dark Confidant-style way to pull extra cards to our hands. We run these over Top because it'son color and stays useful even when we don't have mana available late game.

Umezawa's Jitte - In the mirror, this is a house, and is always relevant to the mid to late game. If you can get an attacker equipped with Jitte, you can turn games around that seem unwinnable. Need lifegain? Need more damage? Need creature removal? Check!

Other Maindeck Card Considerations

The cards above are relatively consistent across the board when you look at recent Zoo lists. However other cards are often run in main deck, and so it is worth considering these and adjusting for the metagame accordingly.

Gaddock Teeg (mainboard) - Gaddock has held a spot in the sideboards of Zoo ever since its printing in Lorwyn, but a recent SCG 10K showed us that it may be valuable to run a singleton maindeck as a card to shutdown not only the dreaded combo decks, but even cards like Force of Will, which normally dominate the format. If you run this, it will likely take the spot of the MBJittes or maybe one of the Sylvan Libraries.

Woolly Thoctar - In Zoo builds that are more focused on speed rather than mid-game survivability, Thoctar is a commonly seen card. Its RGW casting cost is not as restrictive as it may at first seem due to dual lands, and it is a massive 5 power swing at your opponents face with no GY dependence likeKotR . However, it lacks any utility beyond being a clock setter, and KotR often ends up being much larger by the time it hits the tablegiven the average number of fetch draws you can expect with the deck. Also its 4 toughness can also be relevant, as many blockers can trade with it by the time it is in the game and swinging. A very good card, but not as interactive as Knight.

Figure of Destiny - Figure is a card that rewards good play and definitely helps the bluff game. That said, it is also extremely weak in the early game compared to your other one-drops. Figure is at its strongest when you can swing in with all your mana untapped, threatening topump it if it is blocked. Attacking in with a 2/2 Figure into a 3/4 Goyf is often actually the right play, as the opponent will often just let you through to avoid the pump/goyf kill. Even outside of bluffing decisions like this, Figure is a good way to use up that excess mana sitting around at your opponent's EoT. The card is good, but if you are going to add it, I don't believe it warrants more than one or two spots in the deck, as you generally do not want to see it in your opening hand.

Cursed Scroll - In several earlier builds Scroll was much more common to see in decks than Grim Lavamancer, as people bemoaned the somewhat prominent lack of GY synergy between G.L. andGoyf . Both Scroll and Lavamancer essentially do the same thing, but with different limiting factors. Scroll requires you to either a) have only one card in hand when you activate it or b) risk having a chance element in your game. Lavamancer can only be activated when you have cards in your GY, and depending on your Goyf presence this can reduce your power on board pretty quickly. However, Lavamancer gets the nod in most current decks, as they recognize that the added speed makes up for the downside, and by the time he is being used (generally lategame) yourGY should be large enough to let you pick and choose how to avoid shrinking your Goyf.

Sideboarding

Sideboards in Zoo are often varied and are certainly dependent on what the player expects to see in the meta. That said there are several cards that pop up in many sideboards as specific answers to commonly faced decks/problems.

Against Combo - Gaddock Teeg, Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist

Against Dredge/Loam/GY decks - Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap, etc.

Against Control - Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast

Against Loam/38 Land - Price of Progress

Extra creature removal - Swords to Plowshares (functions as extra PtE)

Artifact/Enchantment removal - Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge

Extra Jittes - Any matchup where Jitte is good, more than one may be better.

These are some of the basic cards found in SB's but in no way is it an exhaustive list.

My sideboard for an unknown meta:

3x Gaddock Teeg

2x Tormod's Crypt

2x Ravenous Trap

3x Red Elemental Blast

2x Krosan Grip

2x Price of Progress

1x Umezawa's Jitte