[Card Discussion] Knight of the Reliquary - Tarmogoyf's Big Brother

[Captain Hammer]

I think the consensus is that Knight of the Reliquary is the card with the most potential in Conflux.

Having proxied and played with it, I think it's more than that. I think that it's the next Goyf, a nonsplashable version of it (so it won't be anywhere near as prevalent, thank god).

Here are my findings...

It usually comes out as a 5/5 early-mid game. It comes out much bigger a little longer into the game. These stats actually beat Tarmogoyfs!

Each time you use it's ability to grab a fetchland or Wasteland, it pumps itself +2/+2. You can do this immediately after declaring it as a blocker to form a pretty formidable wall.

It both substitutes for and combos with Crucible of Worlds (or Loam). Throw it in any deck with 4 Wastelands, and 4 Crucible, and you're twice as likely to Wastelock your opponent. Your opponent will never be able to use another nonbasic again.

Plus you can do all sorts of crazy things like grab Horizon Canopy to have it work as a Dark Confidant and draw you a card every single turn. You can grab Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, Maze of Ith, Flagstones of Trokair, Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale and tons of other solid lands. It even can thin out your library of cards with great haste thus ensuring you only draw business spells and creating virtual card advantage.

To have a threat thats both a big threat, and a walking pseudo-Crucible of Worlds is fairly powerful stuff.

I think any deck that's able to support Green and White and 4 Wasteland should atleast consider this guy. And yes, that includes Threshold like builds that play Wastelands.

What do you guys think?

Edit: I really really want to revive Terrageddon, but a version that hopefully splashes blue for Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, Ponder and FoW.

Something that incorporates some combination of the below cards...

Neo Terrageddon

Threats: Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Knight of Reliquary, and Mystic Enforcer

Other Threats: Possibly Noble Hierach, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, Trygon Predator, Eternal Witness, Garuuk, and Rafiq

Disruption: StP, Crucible of Worlds, Armageddon, and Cataclysm

Blue: Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will

Lands: Fetchlands, Duals, Basics, Wasteland, Flagstones of Trokair, Maze of Ith, Horizon Canopy, and Nantuko Monastary

Other Alternatives: Possibly Life from the Loam, Solitary Confinement, Chalice of the Void, Oblivion Ring, and Mox Diamond

I suppose there's no good reason the deck couldn't simply cut blue out and be just WG Terrageddon. But I love blue.

I'm also playing him in Threshold, and he works well there...

My meta is aggro, lots of creature decks.

So I really wanted to modify my thresh deck to have a much higher threat density (my threats usually outmatch their threats). And yes, I want to stick with UGw.

So this is what I where I wound up....

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Rafiq of the Many

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

As for why I opted to play Rafiq. Trygon Predator just isn't very good in an aggro dominated meta. Where as Rafiq is fantastic with this high threat density. The turn you cast it, you can swing with any of your threats for a massive amount of damage. Hell, Mystic Enforcer by itself swings for 14 points of damage under Rafiq.

Let me know what you think and help me improve it.

[Skeggi]

I think the consensus is that Knight of the Reliquary is the card with the most potential in Conflux.

What do you guys think?

I think not. He's 3 mana, 2 colors and has an ability that's useful, but not aggressive enough. So far I think it may revive Terrageddon, but that's it. It has no place in Aggro Loam, Terravore is much, much better (bigger and trample).

The most promising cards in Conflux are probably Esperzoa (cheap Sea Drake, making Faerie Stompy playable for people with a smaller budget) and Nyxalith, in my opinion, for Eva Green, just what the doctor ordered.

[Arsenal]

What is Nyxathid replacing in Eva Green? Certainly not Goyf or Stalker, so that leave Hippy and Shade. Hippy, although a 2/2 flyer, serves a disruptive role in Eva Green, not a beatdown role that Nyxathid would be fulfilling. So that really leaves Shade.

Shade is 2cc, Nyxathid is 3cc. Shade requires only mana investment to grow to obscene levels, and doesn't care about the opponent's resources (hand, land, etc) at all. Nyxathid requires discard spells and the mana to play the spell to become a threat, although Nyxathid remains a large threat far past "until end of turn". Each one has it's advantages/disadvantages, but I really don't think Nyxathid is going to be replacing Shade in Eva Green (or any Sui variant for that matter).

[ScatmanX]

Nice argument on Nyxathid in this Knight of the Reliquary thread...


I think the card must see play. Don't know if in Threshold,but somewhere else. It's just screaming "Break me".

[Arsenal]

Sorry, didn't mean to derail, but I wanted to respond to Skeggi's statement.
_______________

I think the Knight will definitely find a home in Legacy, but it won't be the backbone of decks or anything like that.

[Raindown]

Wastelock your opponent. Your opponent will never be able to use another nonbasic again.


Correct me if I am wrong, but if he plays a non basic he is going to have a chance to tap that non basic before you get to ever use your wasteland on it.

[Zork]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that Knight does not substitute for Crucible, as he will be eating your land to get those wastelands out as opposed to recurring them from your graveyard. He combos with it well, but by no means does he function anything like LftL or Crucible.

[SuperBean]

I agree with what was said in the first post, this guy is amazing. I have 3 of him proxied in my Slide deck right now and he's amazing.

[dahcmai]

I've been trying him out also and my only complaint is all the decks I want to stick him in don't make GW very effectively. They just HAD to make him those colors, ugh.

He is quite amazing though, much better than I gave him credit for. You really just need to play the guy and see. He looks worse in a spoiler printed out.

[Shawon]

Question:

Say you have no graveyard. Both players have 2 lands.
Your opponent plays Devastating Dreams for 2, discarding
nonlands. Since both players sac 2 lands, and 2 damage
is dealt to Knight, does Knight survive?

[rufus]

Having proxied and played with it, I think it's more than that. I think that it's the next Goyf, a nonsplashable version of it (so it won't be anywhere near as prevalent, thank god).

I think he's a little different than 'goyf. There's a big gap in the CC, and 'goyf doesn't have an interesting tap ability. CC-wise, I think there are other more comparable creatures like Wooly Thoctar, Doran, Terravore, or Countryside Crusher. Considering the prevalence of Fetchlands, KoR is likely to be superior to Doran in many situations, so I'm sure it will see play.

I also have to concur with the posters that indicate that KoR is not a plausible substitute with Crucible, but, rather, that he interacts well with non-basic lands in general.

[f|i[p]]

Although he is good, he is not as good as terravore aggro wise, and will not be the next goyf. If your using his ability, that means he is not attacking. He usually comes down as a 4/4 and is not bad for a 3 c c. He is not a replacement for crucible at all. He does however thin the deck. He is quite slow by himself as well and is very reliant on your graveyard. I think Loam is one of the best decks he will be in if you want him to have a big P/T. If I would compare him, to any creature, at best he would be something like countryside crusher,not as aggressive as crusher but more likely used for utiliy.

[rufus]

Question:

Say you have no graveyard. Both players have 2 lands.
Your opponent plays Devastating Dreams for 2, discarding
nonlands. Since both players sac 2 lands, and 2 damage
is dealt to Knight, does Knight survive?

The Knight survives:

The +1/+1 's that Knight gets are state-based (+1/+1 per card in your GY) so it doesn't use the stack. The lethal damage check occurs when either player would get priority (after the resolution of D.Dreams) so the knight is 4/4 at that point, and 2 damage is not lethal.

[4eak]

KoR is not the second coming of Goyf. At best, KoR is a reusable crop rotation on a stick, but it will not be the ubiquitous 2cc for 4/5 that is Goyf.


His double color cost is a serious problem and limits which decks can play it, while Goyf can be splashed in way more decks.
His 3cc makes him a bit more expensive, and it does change his playability.
KoR is more conditional, and he takes more time to grow.
KoR is not as big as Terravore (the real competitor which must be compared).


KoR is a good card though. We should give the card some credit:


It is 50% a Terravore that lives through GY hate.
It crop rotations Plains/Forests every turn, at the expense of attacking, but not at the expense of blocking (usually).
It is a single-card engine (albeit a slow one) that fulfills multiple roles.


Crop Rotation on a stick is powerful. It plays defense while creating serious land quality advantage over your opponent, and when your land quality becomes potent enough to overcome your opponent, then you can change roles and KoR becomes a serious beater.

The synergy with LtfL, wasteland, and powerful singletons like Tabernacle, has been powerful in testing.




peace,
4eak

[dahcmai]

It does make me wonder if anyone is going to try it in Vintage where you can get a couple of better lands. Watching a Vintage player trying to make those colors would be amusing in itself though.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, it's funny that this and teeg, two card probably designed for older format, are in the least played color of vintage.

[mercenarybdu]

You pretty much have to force yourself into playing into those two colors. I could see it easily slip into an array of loam decks, but outside of that, it is not very poweful without those cards that make it good.

It's not goyf's big bro, its more of a creature meant for the loam.

[grahf]

Completely irrelevant nitpick... the art is obviously of a female knight, can we call her Miss Reliquary?

[Omega]

You people just watch me own the world with it :)

But, no joke, i think this card is great. Whether it can be played in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is still a matter of testing. I will post results in the UGW thread when i get the chance to play it in tournament

Robert

[Media314r8]

Knight has been good in testing in terrageddon, as he allows you to come back from a popped relic, as if he and crucible are on board, you don't miss a beat. (well he does miss 'beats', but 'vore would have died in place)

I'm considering adding him as a singleton wish target in my GBw wishing rock deck, as I could add a singleton cabal cofferes to compliment the one-of MB urborg. Makes for one hell of a profane command/deed - enough to kill even tombstalkers. Seems like danger of cool things, but he could, more practically, be wished in to fetch my singleton v. stronghold and recurr witness, ect. If only he could crop rotate for the one-of tabernacle in my board.

Probably ends up as a $5 or so card with mininal impact on the format, but will immensly help a select few decks, while providing a utility beatstick for midrange control decks like the rock. I wouldn't preorder any, you'll be able to find plenty in trades after newbies crack packs hoping for huge, ultra-rare timmy treasures and instead finding a rare 2/2 that's hard to cast. Keep your trade binder stocked with dragons and you'll have a playset in no time.

[Sek'Kuar]

When considering the list in the OP,would it not be more beneficial to the deck to run the NeoBirds that have Exalted and produce the Bant colors? If you have no need for red or black, you may as well. It helps break creature stalemates (my goyf is 1/1 bigger than your goyf...)and it fixes your mana.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Anyone else seeing super synergy with Weathered Wayfarer?

How about something like

4x Weathered Wayfarer
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Goyf
3x terravore

Bah... can't think up a good end to this deck right now, but anyway, Wayfarer would be the shit with KoR.

[Fossil4182]

I think the more pointed question concerning Knight of Reliquary would be how does in directly compare to Terravore?

I mean beyond the clear stuff like Terravore being bigger, and the Knight's ability, how would these two stack up?

The GG casting cost of Terravore would seem problematic for some decks, however if you're splashing Green already, it would seem like you could skew the mana base to include such a large creature that will usually outclass Goyf. However, the Knight, despite being W/G would seem to come down a lot easier and can grow itself...and fetch lands for you.

Anyway, just a thought on the direction the discussion ought to head.

(However, if there are other comparisons that need to be made, I wouldn't assume that Terravore would be the only one)

[Captain Hammer]

Knight would be good in any deck that Terravore is good in imo.

But the reverse isn't true.

Terravore needs it's opponents yard to be full too to be a 5/5 or bigger, and thus worthwhile. So it needs mass LD to be good. This means stuff like Armageddon or Devastating Dreams or such. Given that one of those spells resolved, Terravore becomes bigger and meaner than Knight, but only after they resolve.

Knight just needs 2-3 cards in your yard to be decent. And just about any multicolored deck already achieves that thanks to fetchlands. Throw in some Wastelands, which most any deck can support, and there's no reason not to play Knight in the deck if there's room.

[bowvamp]

Knight can do crazy stuff like:
Kill a tapped forest/plains, fetch a fetchland, sac the fetch and fetch another forest/plains or perhaps even a dryad arbor all while blocking and giving himself a permanent +2/+2.
Yeah he's horrible *sarcasm*
He could be run in a deck like:
4 KoR
4 Crop Rotation
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Rishadan Port (works really well when fetched during their upkeep)
1 Tabernacle
That's what I've got so far

[dahcmai]

I was thinking more along the lines of trying it in Blue. Just to be able to get Daze and Stifle. Kind of along the lines of a Sullivan Solution style. Mana screw the hell out of people with stifles, wastes, and maybe even a Ghost Quarter. Then top it off with being able to Daze anything and tutor up a Maze of Ith for anything you don't mind slipping through. Eventually, just tutor up a Tabernacle and own any crap that makes it out.

Something along those lines seems good.

Then he makes a fine beater when the time comes.

[Omega]

I think playing him only as an additional beater in UGW is a good idea. You dont have to abuse its ability to make it good. In the worst case scenario, when keeping it untap to dissuade opponent from attacking, you can sac some land to thin your deck, or just to shuffle it (assuming you have a Sensei's divining top out, it can do a pretty good combo). You dont have to play it in a designated deck.

Robert

[Captain Hammer]

I'm playing him in Threshold, and he works well there...

My meta is aggro, lots of creature decks.

So I really wanted to modify my thresh deck to have a much higher threat density (my threats usually outmatch their threats). And yes, I want to stick with UGw.

So this is what I where I wound up....

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Rafiq of the Many

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

As for why I opted to play Rafiq. Trygon Predator just isn't very good in an aggro dominated meta. Where as Rafiq is fantastic with this high threat density. The turn you cast it, you can swing with any of your threats for a massive amount of damage. Hell, Mystic Enforcer by itself swings for 14 points of damage under Rafiq.

Let me know what you think and help me improve it.

[CleverPetriDish]

It kills me to have to tap a big fatty (rather than attack) just to make him bigger and fatter. Then you are forced to take chances on allowing your opponent to lucksack into a solution. No thanks.

[Omega]

But but but, you are forgetting this: You can't always attack. Say your opponent has 2 tarmogoyf and you have a Reliquary in the play. Your knight is fatter than his 2 tarmogoyf. Will you attack first? IF you do, he will kill it with double block. If he attack, he will lose a goyf and you will keep the knight.
This situation happens actually quite oftent.
IE : I have double mongoose, opponent has 1 tarmogoyf. Clearly, he can't attack. Clearly, me having 2 goose is not enough to attack neither!

In such situations, the ability of the Knight is actually relevant. You can sac a land to get a fetchland to sac it into a land (thus shuffling your library to abuse Sensei's divining top) Or if you dont have SDT, just grow your big Knight of the Reliquary. And when he is big enough, you can attack!!!!!!

Robert

[dahcmai]

That was the general idea of making a pseudo-LD type deck out of him. He's a perfect searcher for all Waste type cards so why not load up on them and mana screw the hell out of people. It needs to be blue to stop things from getting through, that or red to burn anything that hits.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, but the build I posted above doesn't need all that.

It proves that you just take a standard UGw Thresh list, make room for 4 Knight, design the manabase to support 4 Wasteland and 19 Land total, and there you go, that's all you need to abuse the hell out of Knight and deny your opponent's mana in the proces.

Omega, that's a good point that most people are missing.

Think about it. Do you really attack with every single creature you control every single turn?

No, for a number of reasons, either because of a blocker the opponent has, or because you need to save a blocker because your opponent has scary threats, you hold back sometimes.

Just hold back with the Knight once, use him as the blocker, and pump him +2/+2 in the process.

Just holding him back once makes him bigger than that threat your opponent has that used to be bigger than him but no longer is.

[Hanni]

I posted this in the Aggro Loam thread, but I figured I'd post it here as well since it directly relates to the subject matter of this thread:


I don't see why people are hating on Knight of the Reliquary. I've been wanting to put together Terrageddon for a long time now, because I really hate Devastating Dreams, and I love Armageddon and Cataclysm. The printing of Knight of the Reliquary finally made me get around to building a new age Terrageddon list.

G/W/r Aggro Loam (Terrageddon)

Lands (24)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (24)
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Armageddon
3 Cataclysm
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ravages of War
1 Cataclysm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

The sideboard could potentially use some work.

The landbase could potentially utilize singleton lands like Boseiju, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, so on and so forth. Right now I'm just playtesting with a solid manabase without singleton lands... that could quite possibly change soon.

I think KotR is an amazing creature. Sure, it's still graveyard dependant, unlike Crusher, but Crusher feels like Dryad to me. What I mean is, Crusher is small when first played, no matter the game state, and only grows over time. Without a Top in play, sometimes he can grow very slowly. True, he makes it so that you're constantly drawing business every turn, and I'm not saying he's not amazing... but KotR is a fine replacement for him, IMO.

Just like Crusher, KotR has a built in engine too... in KotR's case, he can create Wastelocks without Loam (or eventually, grab singleton lands like Tabernacle, once I figure out what singletons would be good, if any).

Even through graveyard hate, KotR still remains a 2/2, and unless the grave hate is a Leyline or something, he can easily pump himself back up after a Crypt or Relic.

So I'm not saying KotR is better than Crusher, and I'm not saying he's worse. I'm saying he's a fine replacement.

Now, dropping the heavy red committment allows the deck to access white, which gives much better tools, IMO. I hate Devastating Dreams, it's a strong card but the card disadvantage is horrible. Catalcysm is savage, and that's all that really needs to be said about the card. Armageddon is also a strong spell for this general type of strategy, and gets the job done better than Devastating Dreams as far as land destruction goes. Oblivion Ring rounds out the white spell package, giving the deck access to answers to everything from Counterbalance, Moat, etc, whatever. I only run 2 O Ring because multiples clash with Cataclysm, and I didn't have any more room for any more.

4 Armageddon, 3 Cataclysm, and 4 Burning Wish gives the deck a shitload of mass destruction spells. The consistency with that gameplan is awesome; redundancy at its best.

White also gives the deck access to Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard as an additional combo hate tool postboard.

At any rate, I've been enjoying this version alot more than the standard GRb Aggro Loam and I highly suggest to those out there curious about the white splash to try it out.

[georgjorge]

I really like the idea of tutoring for Boseiju in a deck with Wish + Cataclysm + Armageddon.

[GGoober]

I can see him as a candidate in a variant of ITF. I'm working on a list. He's great synergy with Loam + tutored Wastelands etc. I'll be working on a variant of ITF soon. All I can say is Tutoring Dustbowl, activating Dustbowl to sac a land, use KotR to sac a land, grab Waste = amazing LD with LftL recursion. He gets big VERY fast in the right deck.