Counterbalance/Top or Not?

[jazzykat]

Greetings,

I was doing some more pondering on my own and since I don't have too many people to speak to about Legacy on a regular basis I'd thought I'd throw the question out here:

1. Why do decks like Thresh (Sans Thrash) and Dreadstill usually run counter top, while there are quite a few VERY successful Lanstill lists that don't?

It seems to me that all lists can benefit with it included ESPECIALLY landstill who often has a varied enough curve to stop even more things.

2. Also, the most compact CB/Top package takes up 5 slots (3 CB/ 2 Top), is it worth it OR is it better to play other cards to pre-empt/dismantle your opponents CB/Top which have wider application such as spell snare, counterspell, EE, etc. You could obviously say both and many decks successfully do play both. Just say why...

3. Lastly, is counter top too slow vs. TES and AdNT? Why?

[from Cairo]

I was doing some more pondering on my own and since I don't have too many people to speak to about Legacy on a regular basis I'd thought I'd throw the question out here:

1. Why do decks like Thresh (Sans Thrash) and Dreadstill usually run counter top, while there are quite a few VERY successful Lanstill lists that don't?

It seems to me that all lists can benefit with it included ESPECIALLY landstill who often has a varied enough curve to stop even more things.


Some Landstill lists do run it, but I think part of what draws other lists away from playing it is the varied curve to Landstill. The deck doesn't tend to play as large a number of 1 and 2 casting cost cards as Thresh and as a result it's harder to reliably Top into cmc you'd need. One has to consider that typical lists are often running some combination of: Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Humility, Elspeth, Decree of Justice, Fact or Fiction, Eternal Dragon, Crucible of Worlds etc, etc, all dead flips against most of the format. With a much more diluted range of cmcs it's much more difficult for Landstill to hit its 1 and 2 cc cards when needed.

Landstill also naturally plays more land than Thresh which also hinders it's utilization of Counterbalance/Top. In typical Thresh lists running 18- lands the chance of any given card in the library being a land is ~30%, where as in typical Landstill lists running 23+ land the chance of any given card in the library being a land is ~38%+.

Almost all the best decks in the format's bombs are 2cc, Tarmogoyf, Survival of the Fittest, Dark Confidant, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, opposing Counterbalances, etc and Landstill tends to only play 4 Standstill and 2-4 Counterspell, and in the case of running Counterbalance, probably 3, that would be available to flip to counter these. The other half of the format being 1cc, Burn, Cantrips, Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual, Spell Snare, Stifle, Dreadnaught, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, etc. Landstill is a bit closer in the number of 1cc cards it runs, usually 4 Brainstorm, 4 Swords to Plowshares and some number of Spell Snare, and then 2-3 Top in the case of running the CB/Top engine. Still the deck is littered with 4cc cards and lands; it may sometimes give you a 1cc or 2cc in the top 3, but one will not have as much access to both cmcs, as they would in a deck like Thresh.

Landstill also tends to not play the cantrip engine that Thresh does, and thus its harder to assemble to combo in the first few turns.



2. Also, the most compact CB/Top package takes up 5 slots (3 CB/ 2 Top), is it worth it OR is it better to play other cards to pre-empt/dismantle your opponents CB/Top which have wider application such as spell snare, counterspell, EE, etc. You could obviously say both and many decks successfully do play both. Just say why...

Personally if running a deck with Counterbalance, I'd always run 4 CB / 3 Top. If one is going to invest in running the package at all, I'd want to reliably see it. Even once the first Counterbalance has resolved it's going to be a target for removal, so having back up is great, at worst they pitch to Force of Will.

I think if one's deck is naturally flooded with 1 and 2 drop cards running Counterbalance/Top is the best route to take rather than running a package to disrupt the combo. If the curve is more diverse it might make more sense to fit in a few answers rather than devoting 5-7 slots to a card combination that's going to function suboptimally.



3. Lastly, is counter top too slow vs. TES and AdNT? Why?

Sometimes it's too slow, but I feel like in Thresh it is the ideal form of disruption. Thresh already has Force of Will and Daze to speed bump a first or second turn win. If they can put a Tarmogoyf onto the board quick and utilize Counterbalance to slow their opponent into digging for an answer than they've probably bought enough time to seal the game.

I feel like in Landstill there is far less a clock to accompany the disruption, and less free counters so Combo is pretty free to take their time digging answers. For this reason I feel like Meddling Mage and Runed Halo are the preferred methods of disruption for Landstill, as one has a built in clock with it, and the other does more than slow them from going off, it invalidates their win condition unless answered.


Those are just my thoughts on it though, will be interested to see what else is offered.

[quicksilver]

Counter top is extremly viable against storm, probably the best use of the card.

As for landstill not running it, it has poor synergy with sweepers like pernicious deed.

[GreenOne]

3. Lastly, is counter top too slow vs. TES and AdNT? Why?
I'm not an expert with control and aggrocontrol, but I'm a combo player at heart, so I feel comfortable answering this.
Counter-top would be too slow if not paired with other cheap countermagic (Fow, Daze, maybe stifle or spell snare). FoW alone is usually not enough to stop storm combo, cause the deck is prepared to it.
However, TES and ANT are a lot less prepared to fight cheap permanent based hate and counterbalance fill that role nicely. Counterbalance makes difficult to dig for answers to it, while usually other cards don't.

Eg. To fight Gaddock Teeg or Meddling Mage with TES you usually find either a Burning Wish->Grapeshot or a Mystical tutor->Chain of Vapor, that's 7 cards, and you have 4 Brainstorm + 3 Ponder to find those 7.
With counterbalance you have your Mysticals/Ponders/Brainstorm countered (even with a blind reveal there's a good probability).
You can try to race counterbalance, but if you do so you're more inclined to lose to FoW or Daze or Stifle or whatever. It becomes a lose-lose situation, that's why counterbalance decks are the worst possible matchups for TES/ANT.

[Bahamuth]

Counterbalance is easily the best combo hate out there. Even without the fast counters, it would be a strong option against ANT/TES. Dropping the card on turn 2 on the play (or even on the draw) can make them insta-lose the game if you are a little lucky.

As for why Landstill doesn't run it: Deed (as mentioned), Slot intensity (Landstill can't simply cut 7 cards without damaging the structure of the deck), high CC (Landstill doesn't have too many 1/2CC like Thresh) and the fact that Counterbalance doesn't fit too well in a control strategy. Counterbalance is proactive, while control will generally try answer stuff. Counterbalance won't kill Goyfs or change the board position in any other way if it comes down late. It would be better to run answers instead.

[jazzykat]

Wow, these answers are SOOOO much better than the last time I posted a hypothetical question, so I'm going to throw another one in here:

In my experience AdNT and TES are pretty good vs. Landstill not great mind you as it does have force and spell snare... to increase your MU vs. combo with landstill is it worth putting in CB/Top and at what point?

One other "realization" came to me as I read over the responses landstill usually has some amount of manlands that it tries to win with, they normally cost 2 mana early on if you are putting pressure on the opponent. Is this also part of the reason it doesn't run the engine....? I doubt it because you would probably want to establish control first....?

I realize many of my questions are general but the conditional answers shed a lot of light on when CB/Top is applicable.

[BreathWeapon]

If Landstill is boarding SB cards for solely the sake of Storm, then Canonist > Balance because TES is bringing in Red and Pyro blasts and Duress. Canonist is similar to Balance, in the sense it both stops the opponent from comboing and protects itself from removal (since the opponent can't Burning Wish and Shattering Spree on the same turn) but it dodges all of TES's SB and MD answers and it beats too.

Edit: To reiterate, Counterbalance IS the BEST card ever made for the combo match up, combo has to totally base its disruption and clock around that card, I fucking hate it every time I see it.

[mercenarybdu]

It all depends on both the player and how the deck is built. Not every Landstill plan can go for Cunning Wish and not every plan can run the Decree or Humitity.

It all has to do with how much the deck could handle, thus making the counter top plan 4/10 decks rather than 9/10.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I always sideboard Counterbalance in Landstill. It's the best tool you have access to against combo (it blows Meddling Mage out of the fucking water), and it also comes in against burn-heavy aggro decks.

Realize, however, that my Landstill list happens to have both Tarmogoyf and Sensei's Divining Top in the maindeck. I believe that both of these cards belong in the deck on their own merits, but they certainly synergize well with Counterbalance out of the sideboard. After boarding, you have the same basic anti-combo plan that Threshold does.

[Poron]

Aether Canonist is the best thing againt combo

[kensook]

Ethersworn Canonist!

CBTop is better than Ethersworn against combo. Combo can Spree or bounce Ethersworn which isn't too hard, dealing with CBTop is much more difficult.

[Poron]

canonist is 1 card, cbtop is 2

and often behind a CounterTop there's a whole strategy and a designed mana curve, instead behind a Canonist there's nothing.
It is a much more splashable card.

[Jak]

canonist is 1 card, cbtop is 2

and often behind a CounterTop there's a whole strategy and a designed mana curve, instead behind a Canonist there's nothing.
It is a much more splashable card.

The big thing here is that Counterbalance protects itself. Combo doesn't go through too many hoops to bounce a creature that is also an artifact.

[BreathWeapon]

Combo doesn't go through too many hoops to bounce a creature that is also an artifact.

This is seriously, seriously wrong, and I've seen Ethersworn Canonist on the other side of the table enough to know. Ethersworn Canonist's permanent type is totally irrelevant, but Ethersworn Canonist's ability to make the combo player wait another turn to remove it is a big deal.

I've had entire match losses to Ethersworn Canonist because I couldn't Grapeshot the bastard, ugh.

[emidln]

This is seriously, seriously wrong, and I've seen Ethersworn Canonist on the other side of the table enough to know. Ethersworn Canonist's permanent type is totally irrelevant, but Ethersworn Canonist's ability to make the combo player wait another turn to remove it is a big deal.

I've had entire match losses to Ethersworn Canonist because I couldn't Grapeshot the bastard, ugh.

Why not? Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/LED + Grapeshot. Bam, dead Canonist. You could also run Wipe Away/KGrip like everyone else...

In a order of things I don't like seeing it goes roughly like this:

// really hate seeing
Counterbalance w/Top
Cabal Therapy with Known Information
Thoughtseize/Duress
Hymn to Tourach
Orim's Chant/Abeyance/etc
Trinisphere
Glowrider
Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance
Force of Will
Chalice of the Void
Counterbalance w/o Top
Counterspell/Spellstutter Sprite/hard counters
REB/Pyroblast
...
Rule of Law
Runed Halo
Meddling Mage
...
Arcane Lab
Ethersworn Canonist
...
Gaddock Teeg
...
Spell Snare
Tarpan
Daze
//don't care about

IMO, Countertop is the way to go to fight storm combo if you can pull it off. It stops them from doing all the fancy setup tricks that cause them to overwhelm you after some setup. CounterTop + a clock is best.

[Infinitium]

Did you omitt RavenLoam from that list on purpose, and if so why?

[jazzykat]

Why not? Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/LED + Grapeshot. Bam, dead Canonist. You could also run Wipe Away/KGrip like everyone else...

In a rough order of things I don't like seeing it goes roughly like this:

// really hate seeing
Counterbalance w/Top
Cabal Therapy with Known Information
Thoughtseize/Duress
Hymn to Tourach
Orim's Chant/Abeyance/etc
Trinisphere
Glowrider
Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance
Force of Will
Chalice of the Void
Counterbalance w/o Top
Counterspell/Spellstutter Sprite/hard counters
REB/Pyroblast
...
Rule of Law
Runed Halo
Meddling Mage
...
Arcane Lab
Ethersworn Canonist
...
Gaddock Teeg
...
Spell Snare
Tarpan
Daze
//don't care about

IMO, Countertop is the way to go to fight storm combo if you can pull it off. It stops them from doing all the fancy setup tricks that cause them to overwhelm you after some setup. CounterTop + a clock is best.

Wow...Daze and Spell Snare are that weak? I figured Daze might mess with a mana count and spell snare hits IT, and Burning Wish (hmmmm....only 4 cards vs. AdNT....)

[Jaiminho]

Wow...Daze and Spell Snare are that weak? I figured Daze might mess with a mana count and spell snare hits IT, and Burning Wish (hmmmm....only 4 cards vs. AdNT....)

His list of 4 Doomsday (maindeck) uses 1 or 2 2cc cards, so Spell Snare does close to nothing. Daze is weak because have 17 lands, you are always comboing on turns 3-4, not 1-3, and also you will usually hit all 3-4 land drops.

[Jak]

This is seriously, seriously wrong, and I've seen Ethersworn Canonist on the other side of the table enough to know. Ethersworn Canonist's permanent type is totally irrelevant, but Ethersworn Canonist's ability to make the combo player wait another turn to remove it is a big deal.

I've had entire match losses to Ethersworn Canonist because I couldn't Grapeshot the bastard, ugh.

Yes, wait a turn, and then it gets removed... Counterbalance can actually counter the tutor or even the Enchantment destruction. Canonist alone, is a speed bump for combo. Sure, it is amazing when discard or something is backing it up, but Counterbalance landing alone is ridiculously hard to beat.

[nitewolf9]

Daze is weak because have 17 lands, you are always comboing on turns 3-4, not 1-3, and also you will usually hit all 3-4 land drops.

Unless your opponent is blowing up your lands in the process. Daze seems pretty good when you back it up with LD, and there are many decks doing this.

[emidln]

Did you omitt RavenLoam from that list on purpose, and if so why?
I did leave it off on purpose because it is incredibly slow and vulernable to mystical tutor? Sensils divining top, and artifact mana. These let storm eaisky setup a bomb off the top to completely ignore raven's crime.

[Jaiminho]

Unless your opponent is blowing up your lands in the process. Daze seems pretty good when you back it up with LD, and there are many decks doing this.

The real threat, then, is land distruction, not Daze, as it also cripples your set up.

[nitewolf9]

The real threat, then, is land distruction, not Daze, as it also cripples your set up.

While LD is a threat, it also turns daze into an even bigger threat. It's the combination of the 2 that makes it such a beating. Throw in something like Thoughtseize (along with Force of Will) and things get really bad. I think the point I was making was simply that from a strategy like that Daze is very relevant because of how the pieces work together. Most combo decks can play through land destruction on its own.

Daze also helps threshold buy time to set up counter/top in case you try to go off in the first couple of turns, or to protect its hand from an early duress. I think it's a pretty good card in the matchup.

[georgjorge]

[snip]

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought that spot discard is so dangerous, with Brainstorm + Top (+ Meditate/Contract) giving you midgame drawing power, and Doomsday needing little support cards. I thought Chant was more dangerous since you absolutely need to resolve one of your Duress or your own Chants (are you running more than two Chants nowadays?)...or is there some other way of playing around Chant?

[GreenOne]

// really hate seeing
Counterbalance w/Top
Cabal Therapy with Known Information
[...]
Tarpan
Daze
//don't care about

QFT. Cabal Therapy+Tarpan is something to fear: life matters.

[emidln]

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought that spot discard is so dangerous, with Brainstorm + Top (+ Meditate/Contract) giving you midgame drawing power, and Doomsday needing little support cards. I thought Chant was more dangerous since you absolutely need to resolve one of your Duress or your own Chants (are you running more than two Chants nowadays?)...or is there some other way of playing around Chant?

A lot of combo's consistency and early kills come from Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT (to a lesser extent) ability to turn shitty hands into the nuts. There are a lot of hands that, particularly with the speed builds of ANT and TES, are completely wrecked by targeted discard. Usually hands are threat light because most tendrils list are low on actual bombs while using Brainstorm/Ponder to make up for it. This lets a couple targeted discard throw you off balance long enough for an opponent to get Goyf/Tombstalker on your ass and put some mana denial/more discard into effect. This isn't a perfect plan for Rock/Eva Green/Deadguy/Red Death because there are some hands where you simply have multiples of each class of card, where you have mystical tutor + another singleton threat, or the bomb/acceleration is the correct call and they cantrip/mise into the win. It is an extremely good plan for decks like Landstill, Threshold, Team America, and UWB Fish that can use that Thoughtseize to disable Orim's Chant and gain hand information relating to what they need to counter and how long they have until you try to combo out.

Chant can only stop me once I've amassed enough cards to combo. Targeted discard makes sure I never get to that point. If I can get to the point where I can combo, I can rely on my own Duress, Chant effects (Chant + Xantid Swarm are the most common), and misc other things to deal with Chant. There is no good way to deal with early discard backed by countermagic other than to sit through and hope to be able to take it.

BTW, I'd extend that list out to certain builds of ANT too. It's pretty easy to play around Spell Snare and a lot of ANT lists can simulate DDFT's gameplan (to varying degrees of effectiveness depending on their manabase...) of stalling against control to amass lands and then go for a protected IT->IGG kill.

[freakish777]

Ethersworn Canonist's permanent type is totally irrelevant

Learn to play with Hurkyl's Recall or Shattering Spree before making anymore comments about permanent types not mattering (considering those cards already answer other problems like Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void).

[georgjorge]

2. Also, the most compact CB/Top package takes up 5 slots (3 CB/ 2 Top), is it worth it OR is it better to play other cards to pre-empt/dismantle your opponents CB/Top which have wider application such as spell snare, counterspell, EE, etc. You could obviously say both and many decks successfully do play both. Just say why...


As stupid as it sounds, CBalance hasn't worked so well for me - in a Thresh deck which already plays Tops ! It often felt like I was one or two cards short of a win, and those card was a CBalance that came down after the opponent had already his board out, or that couldn't counter the next one or two spells that came and won him the game (countering a 2cc-spell has about a 25% chance in a standard Thresh build. I also play fewer 1cc-spells because of a super-techy combo in there, but most spells I want to counter are 2cc anyway).

It's obviously good with Top, but assembling that isn't as easy as it looks in a format both fast and full with disruption.

To explain a bit more:

Against control (Landstill, Rock etc), CBalance (even with Top) is not as good, as they have more expensive spells, and conveniently those are the ones that kill your CBalance along with your other permanents (Explosives, Deed, Vindicate).

Against Aggro-control like the Thresh Mirror, it should be gamebreaking. However, I found that of course I had to remove all his disruption before I could land a CBalance (Snare, Force, often Daze), in addition to getting myself a Top down and mana to use it, and at that point he often had gotten his threats down already and nothing left in hand, and therefore an additional threat or answer would have helped me more. Of course, to prevent that you can always play a second turn CBalance even if you can't protect it, but then a Duress or Seize would be better because it dodges both Daze and Snare (and guarantees that you get a card). I find that relevant because playing around Daze, and sometimes Snare, making them dead cards, isn't that hard in the mirror otherwise. Which (black discard) is what I actually replaced CBalance with.

To make my point clear: CBalance is a good card. It beats combo, and it shines against Goyf Sligh, Burn, and black-based Aggro, basically against all decks that run cheap spells but don't run 12+ disruption plus cantrips to delay its entry into play. And there are games against Thresh or even Landstill where I win because it counters 2-3 crucial spells (when Top is there as well). But in general, it just didn't do enough for me in the current format, so it sits in my board waiting for those great matchups I mentioned.

[Hitman82]

As stupid as it sounds, CBalance hasn't worked so well for me - in a Thresh deck which already plays Tops !

I think you're coming to your conclusions based on your personal metagame. Legacy is not a highly supported format and we consequently have small pockets of players all over. In a small, local metagame, Counterbalance may not be the best strategy but in the grand scheme of things, it's actually just the nuts.

The combo shuts down so many commonly played strategies that a Threshold deck with Counterbalance just boasts the best matchups across the board. Yeah you have bad matchups, but in most cases, you're not worse than 50-50. Your consistency is a huge bonus, too. A lot of decks just lose to poor draws. Threshold has the most reliable early game "engines" in Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Diving Top.

I think it's wrong to come to the conclusion that Counterbalance isn't that good because when GP time comes and everyone's playing easy decks to make and things of this nature, Counterbalance will be there to stomp on them.

In a small, local metagame I can see Counterbalance being ineffective but you have to think of the format as a whole. Just my thoughts.

[kicks_422]

Counterbalance/Top sucks. It takes two cards to, what? Counter 1cc and 2cc spells? You should be more focused on countering the big bombs, like Akroma and Cruel Ultimatum. Everyone should drop playing CB/Top and just focus on regular, but more effective counterspells like Arcane Denial.

/end Storm combo player rant

[georgjorge]

I think you're coming to your conclusions based on your personal metagame. Legacy is not a highly supported format and we consequently have small pockets of players all over. In a small, local metagame, Counterbalance may not be the best strategy but in the grand scheme of things, it's actually just the nuts.

Actually, I was talking about the Thresh, Rock, Landstill etc matchups, all commonly played decks :wink: .


Your consistency is a huge bonus, too. A lot of decks just lose to poor draws. Threshold has the most reliable early game "engines" in Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Diving Top.

As strange as it sounds, I'm actually convinced about playing Top but not so convinced about playing CBalance. Yea, I know it sounds stupid.

[Isamaru]

I'm glad this is finally being discussed, because I've tried Counterbalance over and over.

Exactly like georgjorge says, I always find it to be either too late (they already have threats and it should have been a reactive answer or a sure-fire proactive answer instead of a broad one) or to simply not counter their spells.

Of course, on the other side of it, I have had spells countered by the combination - but I only fear Counterbalance when combined with Top/Brainstorm itself. Yet nowadays, you have to even further wonder if it really is that special even in its assembled glory... when everyone already expects it, and is most likely prepared for it.

I've tried it many times, but I keep finding that I prefer discard (usually Hymn to Tourach) because it works immediately.

[Ch@os]

Lol, resolve CB and then play you own threads or play your removal.
Sure CB is too slow for turn 1 & 2 creature drops but thats not the way to go.

[Jak]

Daze and Force are kind of good at keeping things off the table so CB can come in a dominate.

[Hanni]

I've been trying to say for a long time now that CounterTop should be in Landstill. I think it's more appropriate there than in nearly everything else, since the gameplan of Landstill is to control the gamestate throughout the entirety of the game... early, mid, and late. With all the draw in Landstill, the deck will eventually assemble a CounterTop lock at some point in nearly every game that goes long. CounterTop is another means of card advantage, which is something Landstill absolutely loves.

Counterbalance in Landstill improves a tremendous amount of bad matchups, including matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn. At the same time, it doesn't hurt good matchups. Why would you not want to run it?

4 Brainstorm, 4 StP, 3-4 Top has proven to be enough 1cc spells for me, and 4 Standstill, 4 Counterspell, 4 Counterbalance has proven to be enough 2cc spells for me.

The large amount of lands doesn't necessarily make Counterbalance bad either... against Storm, countering 0cc spells is fantastic.

[JeroenC]

True as that might be, there's no denying a curve like Dreadstill's or Thresh's is a way better fit for CounterTop. It also makes Landstill vulnerable to its own sweepers, which is something I wouldn't particularly be fond of.
De gustibus et coloribus, I suppose.

[Bardo]

It also makes Landstill vulnerable to its own sweepers, which is something I wouldn't particularly be fond of.

This is the sort of thing that happens far more often in imagination and debate than in actual practice. If you know what you're doing and play smart, it's rarely an issue.

[Hanni]

My UWg Landstill list only runs 2 EE which would destroy my Counterbalance, as I use WoG as my mass removal instead of Pernicious Deed. Regardless, wiping my own Counterbalance is a moot point in that regard because at the same time, EE is capable of destroying an opponent's Counterbalance.

Besides, ITF runs Tarmogoyfs instead of manlands, both Pernicious Deed and EE, and still runs CounterTop just fine.

[Hitman82]

Actually, I was talking about the Thresh, Rock, Landstill etc matchups, all commonly played decks .

I know you were talking about those decks. I'm pointing out that the combo is amazing against the format in general.

I disagree that it's bad against Threshold. Tight play should be very rewarding and Counterbalance should wreck Threshold once it lands. Just because it's not a cakewalk to assemble and resolve doesn't mean it's not great. Even if Counterbalance draws out a Force of Will, you just two-for-oned your opponent and are more likely to resolve an actual threat and maintain the card advantage to carry you into the long game.

[Arsenal]

I'm seeing lots of older lists running a 3/3 CB/Top split, but with newer lists, it seems as though 4 CB/3 Top is the way to go. What's the reasoning behind that change?

EDIT: Specifically referring to Threshold, sorry.

[puppektion]

I'm seeing lots of older lists running a 3/3 CB/Top split, but with newer lists, it seems as though 4 CB/3 Top is the way to go. What's the reasoning behind that change?

EDIT: Specifically referring to Threshold, sorry.

Multiple counterbalances can be pitched to Force of Will...
Extra Tops are... less useful

[Arsenal]

Multiple counterbalances can be pitched to Force of Will...
Extra Tops are... less useful

Pitching to FoW seems like a rather weak reason to play XXXX Blue spell. I would imagine it's mostly due to wanting to see a CB early, but in Thresh, with all the cantrips, how difficult is it to find a CB early when running 3?

[Forbiddian]

You can cast, tap, and shuffle.

I'd probably rather have second CB, but it's far from impossible to get rid of a second top.

[nitewolf9]

Counterbalance is insane, and you want it to resolve. Playing more copies means there is a higher chance that you will make this happen by finding it in time, or by replacing a countered/answered copy.

[Volt]

Multiple counterbalances can be pitched to Force of Will...
Extra Tops are... less useful

Extra Tops can be cantripped away with the help of a fetchland or another shuffle effect.

Personally, I think the 4/3 split should be the other way around. Top is way more powerful than CB.

[Anusien]

If you resolve Counterbalance and Top you win. I want to do that as often as possible. I would run at least 6 Top if I could, possibly more.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think you're coming to your conclusions based on your personal metagame. Legacy is not a highly supported format and we consequently have small pockets of players all over. In a small, local metagame, Counterbalance may not be the best strategy but in the grand scheme of things, it's actually just the nuts.

The combo shuts down so many commonly played strategies that a Threshold deck with Counterbalance just boasts the best matchups across the board. Yeah you have bad matchups, but in most cases, you're not worse than 50-50. Your consistency is a huge bonus, too. A lot of decks just lose to poor draws. Threshold has the most reliable early game "engines" in Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Diving Top.

I think it's wrong to come to the conclusion that Counterbalance isn't that good because when GP time comes and everyone's playing easy decks to make and things of this nature, Counterbalance will be there to stomp on them.

In a small, local metagame I can see Counterbalance being ineffective but you have to think of the format as a whole. Just my thoughts.


You know, it's usually not worthwhile to support unpopular opinions, since people won't agree with you no matter what your logic and they won't remember it when they change their mind later, but what the hell.

UGw Thresh with CB/Top is strong... If it gets CB/Top down or multiple early 'goyfs with enough counters. It gets weak towards the mid game if it doesn't have CB/Top though, and I've noticed when playing with it that the deck feels a lot like the old Survival decks. If you get your zomgIwin card(s), you're golden, otherwise, you're playing a bad deck. With Survival it was usually bad aggro, with Thresh it's bad control. I guess I'm not so much concerned with CB/Top itself, because it *is* strong, but the way it forces you to warp your deck around it (again, like SotF) makes the rest of the deck weaker than it would otherwise be.

The nicest thing about CB/Top though is that in combination with Tarmogoyf, it does invalidate most toolbox aggro strategies (zoo style decks) which means that it CB Thresh single handedly slows the format down enough where decks that would otherwise be unplayable can shine. 4c Landstill would be a terrible deck if it wasn't for the presence of Thresh.