[Deck] 4 C Zoo

[dr.knockers]

Recently I put some interest in one of the lesser legacy decks: Zoo. I know it is not a tier 1 deck, but in the right meta game it can be a deck with potential. However, I don’t really like the 3 C version because black really makes more options possible for the deck. Neither did I like the 5 C domain version, which heavily relies on burn with a weird mana-base. So I decided to try and make a 4 color version without burn, but with a ton of removal. My current meta exists of a lot of (agro) control, a ton of blue decks. Especially decks like Dreadstill are popular. Goblins is also a common deck. Since zoo has a good goblin matchup and a decent (agro) control matchup I decided to try and make a list. It is highly experimental and I haven’t played any tournaments with it yet, but I decided to give it a try. Here is what I came up with:

Creatures(22):

4#Wild Nacatl
4#Kird Ape
4#Tarmogoyf
4#Dark Confidant
3#Tin-Street Hooligan
3#Woolly Thoctar

Removal(12):

4#Lightning Bolt
4#Swords to Plowshares
4#Vindicate

Stuff(6):

4#Thoughtseize
2#Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands(20):

1#Bayou
1#Scrubland
1#Savannah
1#Plateau
2#Badlands
2#Taiga
4#Wooded Foothills
4#Windswept Heath
1#Bloodstained mire
1#Mountain
1#Forest
1#Plains

The biggest weakness of the deck is off course it’s manabase. 8 of the creatures rely on lands on the table, so wastelands and sinkholes can really screw you over. However, the 3 basics improve the mana base (slightly). Furthermore stifle is a threat since you play 9 fetches. I know that with a dreadstill meta 9 fetches is a risk, but the stifle they play on my fetch is a stifle they can’t play on nought and usually you will be able to recover from a single stifled fetch. The addition of black gives you acces to one of the best creatures: Dark Confidant. This really helps the deck to keep your hand filled with creatures and removal. Furthermore you get thoughtseize which is good against both control and combo(the worst matchup). And last but not least you get vindicate, which is good for getting rid of anything you want. Further card explanations:

Creatures(22):

4#Wild Nacatl=>Usually a 3/3 for G. what do you want more?
4#Kird Ape=>Worse than nacatl, and the worst creature in the deck. I doubted to cut it, but it’s really nice to drop a turn 1 creature, so it stays (for now).
4#Tarmogoyf=>Everyone plays it so it has to be good doesn’t it?
4#Dark Confidant=>Explained
3#Tin-Street Hooligan=>Good against naught’s and other arti stuff(like explosives).
3#Woolly Thoctar=>A great mid-game drop and ridiculous p/t for 3.

Removal(12):

4#Lightning Bolt=>Get’s rid of a lot of creatures in legacy. Doubles as a finisher.
4#Swords to Plowshares=>Maybe path to exile would be better. I haven’t really tested that one, but I really don’t want to give my opponent more acceleration early/mid-game. However, it can be a free time walk for your opponent.
4#Vindicate=>Explained

Stuff(6):

4#Thoughtseize=>Explained
2#Umezawa’s Jitte=>I’m not sure about this one. 50% of the times I am glad to have it, the other 50% I curse it because it is mana intensive. However, it is good against goblin’s and always a target that your opponent wants to counter.

Your gameplan with this deck is to keep the board clean of any creatures while you drop a shit load of them. It is not a Zoo deck that needs to win asap. Most zoo decks aim to win turn 5, but this deck can easily go mid/late game with all of it’s removal and the Thoctar which can be a big threat. The big advantage of the deck is that it has a lot of stuff that your opponent would like to counter, but he can’t counter them all. The big disadvantages are that it sucks when countertop is on the table (although vindicate can handle that a lot of the times), the sucky combo match up and it’s stifle/waste sensitivity. Also deed and explosives can screw you big time. With this in mind I came up with the following sideboard:

4#Pithing Needle
4#Gaddock Teeg
4#Krosan Grip
3#Pyroblast

Maybe the grips can be cut down to 3. I am also testing choke in the sideboard, which does have it’s awesome moments. I am currently testing the deck thoroughly and will post my findings here.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

This deck should be 5c, run some stifle and 4 Tribal flames.
Maybe some Might of Alara!
I mean the mana base form 4c is not much better than a 5c list but the spells that you will get with 5c are much better!

Put jitte in the SB where it belongs.

Is vindicate realy better then O-ring? Harder to cast but more flexible.

Tin-streethooligan is bad! Why not Kataki? Or why do you need them anyways?

And finaly what do you say about Tidehollow Sculler?

[dr.knockers]

I know tribal flames is good, but the only thing that i would like to cut momentarally is Jitte. Furthermore the 5C version should be 21 lands so that would mean that i would only have 1 spot open. Also, a blue based dual works like a wastable basic in the deck.

In my opinion vindicate is way better than o-ring because it can also blow up roshadan ports and other nasty lands. The mana costs isn't that much of a problem most of the times.

Tin-street gets rid of chalices, 3-spheres, dreadnoughts, explosives and more stuff. It really is better than kataki.

Tidehollow Sculler is nice, but it can be removed and is 1 mana more. Against combo that 1 extra mana can really make a difference.

[Frank The Tank]

I am currently running the following build...

// Lands
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Plateau
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [R] Kird Ape
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [CNF] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt


I have some questions as I am taking this deck to Chicago for the GP.

1) Would I be better off running 2 Fireblasts, 2 more Price of Progress's, 2 Ethersworn Canonist's, Etc instead of Woolly Thoctar?

2)I am unsure about the Chain Lightnings, and or Lightning Helix's. Would I be better off running Vindicates, Thoughtseizes, Orims Chant main, something else?

3) Is Tormod's Crypt the best bet for me in the side for resurrection / Dredge or would Leyline of the Void be better?

4) If I am already runing 4 color is it worth it to run 5 color instead. Does 5 color only run stifles for blue and is it worth it?

5) Would there be a better sideboard card over Pithing Needle? I run them for EE's, Deed, Man lands, wastelands, etc.

Thanks

[Skeggi]

I don't understand Price of Progress in such a nonbasic heavy deck. It easily deals 6-10 damage to you, just seems too risky, especially with Bob. Tribal Flames and a 1-of Volcanic Island seems much better.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Why Chant when you can run Canonist instead?

I have to adress Tidehollow Sculler once again. I've find it very very good in extended, so consider it again, and mostly TEST it for legacy. Krosan Grip or Thoughtseize seems the slot for him.

[Valtrix]

I've said so many times: chant is not a good anti-combo tool. You need to play threats to kill them fast enough. Plus chant really only buys you a turn, which becomes significantly less useful when you're holding creatures back. Plus, chant can be hit by duress, where canonist can't.

[Skeggi]

Plus, you can Chant in response to a Dark Ritual and then he mana burns for 3. Oh wait, that's actually pretty good...Cannonist is better, yes, but since Combo is your worst match-up anyway, why not have a combination of both?

[Mantis]

Sculler is nuts, if they use removal on it you traded 1 for 1 with the potential of getting 2+ dmg out of him, so it's not a big deal at all. Also, imagine you started out land go, your opponent starts out land, top go and you cast Sculler nabbing Counterbalance out of their hand. They find some removal for the Sculler 2 turns later, but your Goyf is now already chipping away his life total and they have yet to get Counterbalance online. Not to mention he can take away the removal spell. Basically I think it's a mistake not to run Tidehollow Sculler in this Zoo.

[Frank The Tank]

I don't understand Price of Progress in such a nonbasic heavy deck. It easily deals 6-10 damage to you, just seems too risky, especially with Bob. Tribal Flames and a 1-of Volcanic Island seems much better.

I run it as a finisher. I can get them around 4-8 life pretty quickly and its a cheap way to finish the game. Plus I usually grab a Tiaga (R,G) and Scrubland(B,W) then start grabbing basics.


Why Chant when you can run Canonist instead?

I was thinking of putting in Canonist in the 2 slots I have open for more main deck combo open. I run chant because you don't cast it until they play most of their ramp spells like dark rit etc. That way they have an empty hand with no storm count and it doesn't just stop them for turn one. If that happens it is usually game over.

People talk about out burning / getting creatures out fast against combo, but you can only do so much damage before its their turn 2 and they kill you.


I have to adress Tidehollow Sculler once again.

Yes Tidehollow is good but alot of times combo, especially Dredge etc can get around loosing one card. Plus being able to effectually cast Nactil or kird ape turn one, then Sculler, or Teeg turn two can be a bitch.


but it dies horrible death to Wasteland, Moon/B2B (namely the first) CB, Chalice, combo, etc...

That is the reason why I run basics, and main deck K Grips. I have used them game one on many cards like EE, Deed, Moat, CB, Chalice, Top, Trinisphere, Smokestack, you name it.


I also vote for 5c, it does not have THAT much worse manabase ad still it gives solid spells (Tribal Flames, Gs Might.)

I played against a domain zoo deck this weekend at a 50 person legacy tourny and we talked afterwards. He said tribal flames was good but Gs Might was bad and every 2nd game he sided them out. That was the first this he was going to change he said when he got home. I guess there was many of times he needed to draw burn or threats and he got that instead. It is the old Rancor argument all over again.



Some less obvious choices:

Mogg Fanatic (Ichorid in meta? Also burns Lackey/Confidant)
Goblin Legionnaire (reach..)
Armadillo Cloak (possible 2-for-1, but lifegain and +2/+2 trample = hawt, namely on Goyf...?)
Jötun Grunt (??? - LftL, Icho, Thresh)
that Dryad with "+1 per nongreen spell" I am lazy to search (Goyf no.5-?)
Kataki
Isamaru, HoK

Also - Meddling Mage?

All those guys have been discussed alot over at the RWG Zoo thread (where this deck orginally started from) And it all comes down to speed.

Some run Fanatic for the reasons you said,
Goblin Legionnaire was orginally in the deck but taken out because of speed
Alot of 3 color builds run Isamaru and or Grunt. Personal choice maybe?
People always bring up Figure of destiny and it was discussed for like 2-3 pages on the other forum. I just comes down as being too much of a mana investment. But then people say well he is a late game option, but that is why you run Price of Progress or Fireblast. Much faster tempo and more bang for your buck.

Alot of those creatures are good, I guess it just really comes down to personal likes and dislikes.

[Valtrix]

Yeah, speaking of zoo...I've been somewhat unhappy with RGW right now, because I have no draw engine, and running out of gas sucks. I've also been liking my burn less and less, because it seems like it's not doing enough against the relevant creatures in the format now, and I wanted more answers to namely goyf. So, I modified my deck around quite a lot and wound up with this: (Also, I really hate a lot of decklists in one thread, but eh)

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
3 [R] Savannah
1 [A] Bayou
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Badlands

// Creatures (26)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
4 [RAV] Watchwolf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells (13)
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
3 [CFX] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt

After working this I realized that there actually wasn't a whole lot of red, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I certainly never liked kird ape, and I've become increasingly unhappy with helix/chain. I know they can be useful, but they really aren't killing much...I felt that the 3 life from helix seemed to matter almost never, and chain being a sorcery and the ability to be used again on me just sucked. So first I looked into adding more removal, and I think a 3/3 with swords/path is a decent configuration. I like to have more answers than people can play goyfs.

I was also thinking about what types of threats to run, and I've not been liking the weaker straight beater creatures zoo can use (ape, isamaru, etc.), and felt that adding some ways in the main to combat blue/chalice would be a good idea, because counterbalance just shuts this deck down, and people play too much blue for us to ignore it. Plus, I feel that adding cards to help against those matchups doesn't really hurt your other matchups too dramatically, because you still get to run so many good cards. Plus, adding cards generally in the board to the main gives us a lot more options for what to put in the board. In fact, the crypts there are pretty much just filler.

Anyway, that's just what I have. I get pretty skewed testing because workstation is unreliable (both shuffling and opponents). Perhaps it's a crazy build (In fact, I'm not even sure I would call this zoo anymore), but it's what I'm testing at the moment, and I think some of the rational for roles of cards could warrant discussion.

[Frank The Tank]

It's funny you should mention that as I have also heavily modified my deck to include less burn and more "control" if you will. I still like chain lightning as its 3 for a red mana and I have yet to see it bounced back at me.

Why do you feel the need to run Shusher main when you also run K Grips.

Also I have been talking to a bunch of combo players and they fear Orims Chant more then they do the Canonist. So I build the deck and side accordingly.

The Tidehollows can really make or break a game but the first 2 or 3 turns can be hairy with all the hard casting costs. That is why I run 11 fetches and 9 lands. I don't feel the need to run a basic swamp as I don't want to see them in my opening hand.

The paths have been much better over swords because of the life gain, the main deck K grips are a god send, and the 2 Price of Progress can really help with End game. I also tend to side them out game 2 and 3 because the opponent tries to work around it by fetching basics, so they are basically playing around something that you are not even running at that point which i think rocks.

I still left in the kird apes because I have had them go the distance while I remove their threats and get rid of their hand with Tidehollow. Plus no one really wants to counterspell an ape so they always let it though.

Although Watchwolf is a 3/3 for 2 I feel that Wild Nac replaced it and now you have 4 more slots for a "utility" creature like shusher, Tidehollow, Tin-Street, etc. You might lose +1,+1 but you gain alot in versatility.

// Lands
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Plateau
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [R] Kird Ape
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [CNF] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

[Frank The Tank]

Well i just got back from GP Chicago with the list above and i went 2-3 before dropping and let me just say that wasteland recursion is a bitch. Well that and Firestorm.

Match 1 - "No vial Goblins" 2-1
Game1 - Got him down to 6 but then ran out of steam.
Game2 - First turn Nac, second turn Ape, third and forth turn goyfts. Game over
Game3 - Early beats with Price of Progress for the win

Didn't think this was a bad match up at all. With the early beats and burn / removal its all good.

Match 2 - "White Weeny" 2-1
Game 1 - First turn Nat, second turn Teeg, beats
Game 2 - Close game. Silver knight and pro red shadow guy beats.
Game 3 - Pithing Needle naming his jitte then a couple of Nacs and orims chant with kicker for the win

Match 3 - "Dredge" 0-2
Game 1 - He wins the roll and goes off turn 2. Good times had by all
Game 2 - I get off a turn two Tormod's Crypt getting rid of all his dredge guys and it really slows him down. I was close to killing him with raw beats / burn but a Firestorm for 4 ended all that and he killed me like 2 turns later. Good god that card sucks

Match 4 - "Blue White Landstill" 1-2
Game 1 - Thought this would be a good matchup for me and i burned through a couple of standstills to pull out the beats and win
Game 2 - Wasteland recursion turn 3 after he drops a crucible and I have no K Grips for ever. It wasn't pretty
Game 3 - Same as game two. I can handle 1 or even 4 wastelands but when you even fetch for the 3 basics they have so much momentum they pull out in the long run.

Match 5 - "Aggro Loam" 0-2
Game 1 - Wasteland recursion ftw
Game 2 - Turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Wasteland and needle naming seismic assault. Get him down to 4 before he gets off a EE for 1 and then promply kicks my ass.

Thoughts:
With all that said I really feel if the deck can shut down wasteland recursion it would increase alot of match ups 100 fold. With that said I am toying with the following changes:

-4 Chain Lightning (nice burn but easiest to cut because its generic)
-2 Price of Progress(Usually a dead card or does more damage to me then to my opponent
-1 K Grip (They are great main deck but had a time or 2 where I had 2 in my hand with no targets)

+4 Aether Vials (Gets around counters etc, plus also lets you get out creatures at instant speed)
+3 Extirpate (To get rid of loam, wastelands, StP, etc)

If i put in 4 Vials i am not sure if Vexing Shushers are needed in the side then and thus will free up 4 more slots for cards like Ethersworn Canonist or other things that will really help in the combo match up. I am also going to take out the 2nd Taiga to add in a basic swamp so it would look something like this (Still unsure about the Vexings in the side)

One thing i really liked was the Tidehollows. I was grabbing so many swords, EEs, Goblin Ringleader, deeds etc. Even if they have to use removal to get back their original card it was a nice 2 for 1.

With the above changes it would look something like this...

// Lands (20)
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills


// Creatures (23)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [R] Kird Ape
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

// Spells (17)
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
3 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [PLC] Extirpate
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

Any thoughts?

[PunkRocker1134]

Sacred ground in the board? It really hoses Wasteland recursion, but that is its sole purpose, therefore it has to be in the board. However, if you feel like that is the hugest issue with the deck it can sure that up pretty easily without taking any maindeck slots.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think Vexing Shusher is very bad, he is not good against daze and fow and you couldnt afford the mana for him.
Also you dont have any key spells that must resolve.

And yeah 5c with Tribal Flames seems better.

Sacred ground is just too slow or to narrow.

[Guevera59]

Shusher is a house in Zoo. He owns CounterBalance. Although we dont necessarily have a few key spells, it has loads of low Cc cards that mean auto loss against a resolved CounterTop. 5c Domain Zoo isnt viable due to its incredibly volatile mana base. One Wasteland is game over.

[Frank The Tank]

How is shusher not good against Daze or Shusher?

I agree that sacred ground is too narrow though.

If I run 5 color tribal flames would be an auto include but if I am running blue I would want to run stifle or brainstorm too and I just don't have the room :(

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You just run a volcanic island and a tropical island for the blue splash (play 21 lands without a basic swamp)
You will always have a nonbasic land in play, so wasteland is as a problem for 4c as for 5c builds.

Shusher is not good against daze.
Shusher is a bit better agianst Fow,
but i have tested him and Fow hits very often my first play so before Shusher comes online.
Shusher is good against Counterbalance but so is Krosan Grip.