[Banned List] Why is World Gorger Dragon Still Banned? [Archive]

BigDCool

02-11-2009, 03:36 PM

The reasons for this combo being banned are truly alluding me at this point in time. So I decided I would see what the community, as a whole seems to think about this issue. As far as I can tell without access to Bazaar of Baghdad, I don’t see how this combo could be anymore of an issue than TES, Ichorid, or ANT. It seems far more vulnerable than the Storm combo decks and barring some lucky draws I don’t see how it can be faster than Ichorid. So am I missing something am I just not seeing how broken this would be if they just unbanned WGD.

This is a pretty recent list for Vintage taken from a post on Themanadrain:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Mulldrifter

3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duresss
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Deep Analysis
1 Careful Study
3 Read the Runes
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall

It would need considerable reworking to be ported to Legacy and I’m still not sold on viability let alone format distorting presence. However, this is just one aspect of the deck and it can be built for speed and balls to the wall style of play as well. As far as I can gather the deck is not really a deck that most people would even bring to a Vintage event unless it is their pet deck or they just enjoy playing it. So why if you restrict access to Bazaar and the cheap off color accelerates and the best tutor power, would it be necessary to keep WGD on the banned list in Legacy.

I mean WGD has issues with grave hate and creature removal, two aspects that are ever present in the majority of the Legacy meta-game. I currently don’t think it would fair any better against the top tier decks then the other options available. So why is it still banned?

ThatGuyThere

02-11-2009, 03:49 PM

*Ahem*

My guess, because the combo is from a rules glitch.

In the combo, the Gorger is not doing what it was "supposed" to do. Even (albeit more arguably), the reanimator-spell isn't "behaving itself", blinking in and out and depositing the creature in the graveyard and out.

No, I don't think the deck is too fast, or too powerful; it's about right, really. But the interaction isn't from the way the cards were "supposed" to work, it's from a weird, pretty corner-case rules interaction. Sorta like how Illusionary Mask remains out of bounds; it doesn't "play well" under the rules anymore.

That, and unbannings are very conservative, once dominated the format, require more gravehate, two card combo, blah blah blah. Worldgorger Dragon falls apart for pieces of a jillion reasons, really; no one reason is good enough, but in aggrigate - no Dragon.

ThoseWhoFearTomorrow

02-11-2009, 04:03 PM

So why is it still banned?

Because it would make Extirpate a decent card.

Seriously though Dragon is rarely played in Vintage and it started to disappear around the time that Extirpate became legal. Shortly after that Flash was unerrata-ed and unrestricted, which proved to be a much faster and consistent combo deck.

Kuma

02-11-2009, 04:43 PM

There is no good reason for Worldgorger Dragon to be banned. None. You need a way to get it into your graveyard, an aura to reanimate it, and a way to kill your opponent with the infinite mana. Any deck built with it would be slower than storm combo and way jankier.

Pinder

02-11-2009, 06:51 PM

Kuma

02-11-2009, 07:20 PM

The real question here is whether or not it would even matter if Gorger came off the list. The answer to that question is no. Some cause and effect:

Gorger stays banned -> No one plays Gorger.
Gorger gets unbanned -> No one plays Gorger.

All things being equal, why waste the time unbanning it? It's the same with Land Tax. I don't know why so many people are crying for things to get unbanned so they can not use them.

Because the banned list is for cards that break the format in half. We could put Great Wall, Tarpan, and Chub Toad on the banned list. It would have no effect on the format, but it would make Legacy look that much more ridiculous.

Would you take a format seriously that explicitly put Pyknite, Chimney Imp, and Aven Trooper on its banned list?

By your reasoning we might as well ban Sneak Attack, Pandemonium, and Donate. I mean, it wouldn't affect the format and once upon a time those were powerful cards.

Maybe Worldgorger Dragon wouldn't see any play. But maybe there's a solid tier 1.5/2 deck that could be built around it without warping the format.

It takes time to unban the card? Really? All Wizards has to do is type "Worldgorger Dragon is unbanned" in one of the quarterly DCI updates.

DeathwingZERO

02-11-2009, 07:22 PM

I would try to break Dragon in this format in a heartbeat if they gave it back to us. It was my favorite deck pre-split and it's still my favorite deck in Vintage.

With that said, losing Bazaar was pretty much losing everything the deck had going for itself. The power behind the deck was that the engine itself was uncounterable (aside from Pithing Needle). Without that engine, we lose pretty much the core of what made the deck fast, and now we just have consistency to work with. Not good enough for a combo deck in this format.

I'm fairly sure that the deck could be viable in Legacy, simply because it can pack at least 8 pieces of disruption, if not more. The biggest hurdles are the instant speed creature removal and GY hate, which it would have to dodge in addition to keeping the combo protected. Lot of work cut out for it to be a tournament worthy deck at that point.

On a side note, I still think the best kill the deck had was Triskelion. He evaded combat, didn't run the risk of killing you from mana burn, and only needed a second reanimation spell to hit the graveyard after you combo'd out. In a pinch, he could even be cast before the combo. Awesome little buddy.

kicks_422

02-11-2009, 07:22 PM

Because the format already has enough bad decks as it is. :tongue:

Pinder

02-11-2009, 11:10 PM

Would you take a format seriously that explicitly put Pyknite, Chimney Imp, and Aven Trooper on its banned list?

Noted. But I'm not calling for every bad card to be put on the banned list, I'm just curious as to why people keep asking for bad cards they'll never use to come off.

And it was never my intent to imply that unbanning Gorger would somehow be a laborious process. I just don't really think it's worth the attention.

Rood

02-11-2009, 11:19 PM

It's banned because it's too damn sexy to be legal.

Though it would be strickly worse then all the already established combo decks. It would get hated right out of the format. Especially with relic being maindeck, Lol.

TheDarkshineKnight

02-11-2009, 11:29 PM

Hitman82

02-11-2009, 11:47 PM

Though it would be strickly worse then all the already established combo decks. It would get hated right out of the format. Especially with relic being maindeck, Lol.

No competent Dragon player loses to a Relic or Tormod's Crypt in play.

morgan_coke

02-12-2009, 02:04 AM

I would use Land Tax to build Domain in Legacy. Winz fer shizzle.

Skeggi

02-12-2009, 02:53 AM

It's banned because it's too damn sexy to be legal.
I guess here in Holland it's allowed then :wink:.

mercenarybdu

02-12-2009, 04:49 AM

I could break that card anyday.

4 Badlands
4 Underground Sea
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Laquatus

1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Daze
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Banefire
2 Buried Alive
2 Intuition
2 Animeate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Cunning Wish
2 Stitch Together
2 Burning Wish
1 Necromancy

SB
whatever I find fitting

That is why that Dragon will always remain banned...

GreenOne

02-12-2009, 04:58 AM

No competent Dragon player loses to a Relic or Tormod's Crypt in play.
No competent vintage dragon player probably. In this format you have to find another discard outlet AND another dragon before the opponent kills you or find other grave hate/creature removal. It's not like you can just bait the tormod then draw like a champ with your bazaar.

BreathWeapon

02-12-2009, 06:31 AM

There's no point in banning Worldgorger Dragon, what does Worldgorger Dragon do that Cephalid Illusionist doesn't do? And Cephalid Illusionist can actually play Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top to give it chances vs hate, Worldgorger Dragon just adds Krosan Grip to the shit you have to worry about.

Banning Bazaar of Baghdad was enough to make Worldgorger Dragon fair.

Aleksandr

02-12-2009, 06:33 AM

*Ahem*

My guess, because the combo is from a rules glitch.

...

That, and unbannings are very conservative, once dominated the format, require more gravehate, two card combo, blah blah blah. Worldgorger Dragon falls apart for pieces of a jillion reasons, really; no one reason is good enough, but in aggrigate - no Dragon.

I agree.

Dont forget that Magic is "a game for the people by the people" or something like that and WGD decks are very obscure, they use that rules glitch, games are overcomplicated (yes, I think that many people dont even understand how the deck works. Maybe 1/3 of such "pilots" will lose the game once you reply to their "lol, I do this million times, gg loser" with your "stack it correctly, please"), etc. so DCI dont wants to see them in tournament again.

C.P.

02-12-2009, 06:33 AM

4 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Laquatus

1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Daze
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Banefire
2 Buried Alive
2 Intuition
2 Animeate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Cunning Wish
2 Stitch Together
2 Burning Wish
1 Necromancy

That is why that Dragon will always remain banned...

Because it makes people like you build incredibly awful decklist, which makes people sad? Is that what you're trying to imply?

Stitch together? 4X Banefire? You look like a person who never seen the deck at work before. Your list is incredibly suboptimal, and any threshold list in the format should be able to beat the tar out of it. Or anything with disruption for that matter.

The deck(a good version, that is) seems to be weak in today's format, anyway. We have Snuff Outs everywhere, as well as StP and grip, and format full of efficient disruption machine.

GreenOne

02-12-2009, 07:24 AM

Maybe 1/3 of such "pilots" will lose the game once you reply to their "lol, I do this million times, gg loser" with your "stack it correctly, please"), etc. so DCI dont wants to see them in tournament again.
yeah, I can visualize it:

<me> stack it correctly, please
<opponent> wtf?? Noob
<System> Player Lost

Adan

02-12-2009, 08:04 AM

No competent Dragon player loses to a Relic or Tormod's Crypt in play.

A competent Vintage player would not play Dragon at all.

Let's analyze which cards make Dragon fizzle:

Swords to Plowshares
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Leyline of the Void
Stifle
Trickbind
any Bouncespell

All those cards see play various Vintage- and Legacydecks. In Legacy, Dragon would also be too slow to do anything.

But the main point is that it's actually a slow and vulnerable version of Hulk Flash, winning with just 2 cards which don't cost very much.

And since Wizards wants to prevent that there are stupid 2 card win combos it remains banned.

BigDCool

02-12-2009, 08:44 AM

Thanks for all the replys guys I was unsure if this would be a good topic for disscussion. From what I'm gathering from the responces, is that in truth there is no good reason for WGD to be banned beyond the fact the it is an obscure rules failure that Wizards decided not to correct, and that it is a 2 card combo and Wizards is now sensitive to these since the whole hulk flash shananigans. However, should it ever come off the banned list it will see play. Will it win or break the format most likely not, but even I could be tempted to dust off my FBB Animate deads and give it a try.

Infinitium

02-12-2009, 08:44 AM

Anusien

02-12-2009, 09:32 AM

rufus

02-12-2009, 09:40 AM

Cephalid Breakfeast? Servant's Stone? It's not like there aren't precedents set, and Dragon is arguably worse than either of those (Illusionist/Shuko in particular, and it is effectively a 3-card combo with the discard outlet).

Buried Alive + Animate Dead is two cards and 5 mana .
Painter's Servant + Grindstone is 2 cards and 6 mana.

Skeggi

02-12-2009, 09:44 AM

Buried Alive + Animate Dead is two cards and 5 mana .
Painter's Servant + Grindstone is 2 cards and 6 mana.
Cephalid Illusionist + Nomads en-Kor is 2 cards and 3 mana.
Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle is 2 cards and 2 mana. But it requires 2 extra turns.

DeathwingZERO

02-12-2009, 11:31 AM

A competent Vintage player would not play Dragon at all.

Let's analyze which cards make Dragon fizzle:

Swords to Plowshares
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Leyline of the Void
Stifle
Trickbind
any Bouncespell

All those cards see play various Vintage- and Legacydecks. In Legacy, Dragon would also be too slow to do anything.

But the main point is that it's actually a slow and vulnerable version of Hulk Flash, winning with just 2 cards which don't cost very much.

And since Wizards wants to prevent that there are stupid 2 card win combos it remains banned.

There's a lot of flaws in this statement.

The first, is that Dragon isn't being played in Vintage, when in reality, it's on a rise. It lost absolutely nothing to the blue bannings, and unlike Ichorid (the primary GY based deck to hate now), Dragon can say "I win" in response to Crypt or Relic, thanks to Necromancy. It's far more resilient than people believe. It's only real bane is Leyline, and at that point it slowrolls until it can win as soon as it's answered via Grip/Wipe Away/whatever.

In addition, all of the cards you listed are vulnerable to both countermagic and disruption, something Dragon plays at minimum 8 pieces of in the maindeck. Dragon has the luxury of being one of the few combo decks that can honestly control the opponent long enough to set itself up, and recover if necessary.

Given that, the deck requires both dedication in piloting, and insane amounts of tweaking for metagames, something the rest of our combo decks currently don't really need to do. Also, without Bazaar, the first turn wins are far more suicidal, and frankly storm combo is much more reliable with it's opening hands. In any rate, I don't see any of these reasons for keeping Dragon banned, aside from the idea that the pet deck of pre-Legacy combo players could very well be broken, and we just haven't had the time to set it up for the current metagame.

As far as the other statements, calling it a 2 card combo is misleading. The combo itself requires two cards, but the kill requires a third. Whether it be Laquatus, Trike, or a fireball/stroke/whatever to the dome, the combo itself is not lethal. Breakfast is a perfect example of this as well.

However, Grindstone + Servant is, and that's allowed, and completely colorless, so it can literally go into any mold whatsoever (even if most decks aren't built around it). So the idea of a 2 card combo being an automatic banning is also flawed.

On a side note, Wizards will not admit it openly, but a huge reason behind the banning of the Power 4 was money, not necessarily power levels. Drain, Workshop, Bazaar, and Mask rose in price so drastically that it wasn't good for the format to keep them in and still try to make Legacy viable, which was the objective of the split. One could also argue that the bannings were preemptive, but that seems a bit excessive. At the very least, I do not see Mask and Drain being as format warping as Bazaar and Workshop to be.

In the future, I'd like to see some of these cards come off the list, just for new stuff to work with. Even if they end up not being viable, at least they are there.

Nihil Credo

02-12-2009, 01:05 PM

I think I'd rather play Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy on an Empyrial Archangel than on a Worldgorger Dragon. If it works I may not win on the spot but I'm still fairly likely to; on the upside, I can just run the reanimation spell right out there since I'm only staking a couple of cards rather than my entire fucking board on the play. And I don't even need to worry about most creature removal.

Afro

02-12-2009, 01:54 PM

The deck is banned so P_R can't board out all wincons and say "Reanimate for the win?" and have his opponent scoop.

Tha Gunslinga

02-12-2009, 02:53 PM

Dragon is NOT banned because of the rules glitch. If that were the case it would be banned in Type 1. It was banned, just like the rest of the list (except for the ante cards and Shahrazad), because WotC thought it was too powerful. It could safely come off now. And the reason Dragon isn't playable in Vintage is not because of Extirpate. It's because the deck is absolute trash.

AngryTroll

02-12-2009, 05:10 PM

It's because the deck is absolute trash.

I don't play much Type One, but this comment seems untrue. Dragon may not be Tier One, but it is certainly not absolute trash. See DeathWing0's post.

Zappa

02-12-2009, 06:44 PM

I agree with most people here saying that the dragon should come off list. I would probably not play it but I won't mind seeing more and more decks in legacy. I don't know but I love watching things that I woulndn't normally expect.

Sort of how I was laughing at my friend, when he played Ichorid-Combo way back then, since not many people know about it, he was hoping to fly under the radar. But everyone at the tournament was like "hey look someones playing ichorid!" :laugh:

But anyways, I hope the dragon also comes off the list.

Fossil4182

02-12-2009, 08:11 PM

It would also get a boost from Conflux in Banefire which would make the deck all the more deadly because its win condition couldn't be countered.

Additionally, I believe this card is banned for the same reasons Oath and Fast Bond stay banned. Its not that the deck is necessarily trash (though it could be, IDK), but Wizards wanted to create a unique format that wasn't Vintage minus the power. Thus, deck types like Oath, Dragon ect ect aren't played because Wizards selectively bans cards that create archetypes and wanted a difference between the two formats.

I'm in no way defending the reasons, only offering it. In fact, I don't think unbanning Dragon or a card like Oath* would be that problematic. I mean we have Ichorid and some of the answers also answer Dragon. Additionally main deck cards like StP also answer it.

*I wouldn't have been opposed to unbanning Oath until Conflux came out (Progenitus).

Sanguine Voyeur

02-12-2009, 08:31 PM

None of us can really say why it hasn't been unbanned, we don't work for the DCI.

From what I've heard, Dragon Combo is somewhat weak in Vintage. Not terrible, not great, just barely adequate. Given how many better combos there are in Legacy, I don’t see a problem with it being unbanned.
It would also get a boost from Conflux in Banefire which would make the deck all the more deadly because its win condition couldn't be countered. You could just counter the combo?

AngryTroll

02-12-2009, 08:45 PM

It would also get a boost from Conflux in Banefire which would make the deck all the more deadly because its win condition couldn't be countered.

If you complete the combo, you don't cast an additional spell to win- you mill your deck, generate infinite mana, and then choose to target Sliver Queen, Oona, or someone else for the last iteration of the loop. You dump the mana into the ability, and then win with a billion Slivers (oldest version), when they can't draw (newer version), or with one of the other creatures you can use (newest version?).

You can use Eternal Witness and Ancestral Recall to end the game on the spot; you draw your deck, then they draw theirs, and then they lose.

Finally, there's Triskillion-it comes in to play, you shoot them a few times, then it goes and hides, then it comes back, you shoot them until they get down to zero.

I am not sure which kill is the preferred version. I believe Oona is better than Sliver Queen, but I am not sure how they compare to Recall or Triskillion. You need an extra reanimation effect for the second two versions, but the first one means you have to pass the turn.

Couldn't you do this combo with two land, Animate Dead, Dragon in the yard, and a Compulsion? It's now a three card combo; you get Necromancy and Animate Dead for one piece, but Dragon and Compulsion both need to be there, as well as two or three lands.

With Bazaar, the deck was a ton stronger, because one combo piece was uncounterable and dug for the other two, and Dragon wanted to go to the yard anyways. Without Bazaar, you need to find Dragon, a Reanimation effect, and a Compulsion; then you have to activate the Compulsion to ditch Dragon. That costs 3UUB, or 4UUB if you use Necromancy. That's a lot worse than Bazaar + 1B.

Hmm, I suppose Merfolk Looter works, saving 1U off of that cost, but now your Looter can die. But really, if they have a Swords, they're better off using it on your Dragon; you do have to wait for summoning sickness to wear off, though.

EDIT:

Buried Alive + Animate Dead is two cards and 5 mana .

Dur. Umm...Well, fine, this works to for Oona and Sliver Queen, but you need another Reanimation for the Triskillion version.

DeathwingZERO

02-12-2009, 09:44 PM

The kill isn't a problem whatsoever, in Legacy we can do whatever we want (short of Ancestral, in which we go for Stroke, which is far more reliable anyways, as casting multiple Ancestral's on the opponent just gives them more answers). Trike hands down is the most reliable of the reanimation ones, as he can kill himself in response to StP/whatever, and come back for another round of pings. But that's a null point, because if the opponent had StP, you'd be out your permanents anyway when Dragon goes plowing.

The biggest hurdle to climb is the lack of moxen/Lotus (and other cheap colorless mana sources), and Bazaar. We do have Compulsion, Intuition, the reanimation suite, the kills, and everything else the combo needs. But our setup is just so much slower.

Mordel

02-13-2009, 03:50 AM

All of this talk about worldgorger just reminded me of one of my favorite cards ever: entomb.

Boy did I love my insanely good, but not quite broken BG reanimate rock deck with a nishoba, a Visara, nether spirit, a few butchers, v.tutors, contaminate and random rocky things like bullets and deeds. Cogni-oath what?

Good times.

GreenOne

02-13-2009, 07:12 AM

Buried Alive + Animate Dead is two cards and 5 mana .
Painter's Servant + Grindstone is 2 cards and 6 mana.

Well, Painter+Grindstone doesn't use the grave and uses colorless mana, so it is actually better than Buried Alive + Animate Dead.

And Buried alive+Reanimate spell is already a combo in this format:

Buried Alive (Kiki, Hussar, Guide) + Reanimate/Exhume/Stitch Together (!!!) wins the game on the spot too.

Buried Alive (Sutured Ghoul, Dreadnough, Dreadnough) + Shallow Grave /Corpse dance (or Exhume/Reanimate and win on the next turn). This also gives you a nice non-grave dependant win in Dreadnough+Stifle, And stifle also works as protection against crypt/Relic. This deck was tried and abandoned*, and it allowed for much more than dragon can do:
- an almost-as-good combo
- A good backup plan in Stifle+Dreadnough
- A huge disruption package in 4 Fows, 4 Stifle, 3 Duress.

*I do believe it was abandoned just cause I'm a bad deckbuilder and people wasn't too interested in taking dreadnought in this direction. It was when Dreadnough was just unerrataed. You can find this deck's thread here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6332&highlight=dreadnought+ghoul).

scrow213

02-13-2009, 10:11 AM

I always thought the preferred win was Worldgorger, Laquatus, and Animate Dead?

Anyway, I agree that it is easily disruptable and easy to hate. Unban it and let some people mess with it.

deadlock

02-13-2009, 10:22 AM

Well, Painter+Grindstone doesn't use the grave and uses colorless mana, so it is actually better than Buried Alive + Animate Dead.

And Buried alive+Reanimate spell is already a combo in this format:

Buried Alive (Kiki, Hussar, Guide) + Reanimate/Exhume/Stitch Together (!!!) wins the game on the spot too.

Buried Alive (Sutured Ghoul, Dreadnough, Dreadnough) + Shallow Grave /Corpse dance (or Exhume/Reanimate and win on the next turn). This also gives you a nice non-grave dependant win in Dreadnough+Stifle, And stifle also works as protection against crypt/Relic. This deck was tried and abandoned*, and it allowed for much more than dragon can do:
- an almost-as-good combo
- A good backup plan in Stifle+Dreadnough
- A huge disruption package in 4 Fows, 4 Stifle, 3 Duress.

I like this package in a Gifts shell :laugh:

AngryTroll

02-13-2009, 01:55 PM

I like this package in a Gifts shell :laugh:

How do you set that up in a Gifts shell?

deadlock

02-13-2009, 02:08 PM

Dont take it too serious, just looking for an opportunity to play this card.

Something like buried alive, reanimate, recoup, dark/cabal rit / exhume, depending on hand, i know that it has flaws.

Too bad Hulk, Cabal Therapy, Recoup, Reanimate doesnt work without outside help :confused:

DeathwingZERO

02-13-2009, 07:22 PM

I've toyed with the idea of Gift's as a one or two of in Vintage, just because if you already have half of the combo (the creature or the animate spell), dumping various pieces of the other half works quite well. It's also far more effective than Intuition when combined with Bazaar, as you effectively win on the spot with it. There's literally nothing the opponent can do to screw over a split of Dragon/Animate Dead/Necromancy/Dance with active Bazaar. <3 having 3 reanimation spells.

In Legacy, I might still toy with that idea, though the discard outlet would need to be cheaper than Compulsion. I don't like the idea of having to spend 5UUB the turn I wanted to combo off after topdecking Gifts (6UUB with Necromancy).

MattH

02-13-2009, 07:28 PM

One issue that hasn't been brought up is the ability of Dragon decks to just draw random games it's about to lose by animating when there's nothing but dragons in the yards. That's a huge frustration, both for the dragon player's opponent, and for the rest of the tournament (judges and players) because it makes more rounds go to time.

I'm aware this isn't reason enough to ban a card on its own, but it's one more reason to be glad the card's banned.

Omega

02-13-2009, 08:48 PM

Yes. If there is only dragon in graveyard, and you animate it, it will make an infinite loop.

What happens then? If done intentionally, can this be called a "slow play" or stalling the game?

Akuma

02-13-2009, 09:30 PM

@Omega, all of the occasions I have seen have ended in a draw. The loop is not considered slow playing because there is nothing that can be done to end it (no other option available, no decision to make, thus no stalling), so the game just ends in a draw.

Also, I second "Tha Gunslinga", Dragon is trash in Vintage. There is a reason almost no one ever plays it, you can all figure out why.

As for Legacy and WD, I think the endless loop that MattH mentioned is probably the main reason it remains banned.

SpatulaOfTheAges

02-13-2009, 10:23 PM

In the old 1.5, Dragon without Bazaar was called Bad Dragon.

There was a reason for that.

Occam

02-14-2009, 12:20 AM

Perhaps a Cerebral Assassin port to 1.5 would work better than a pure Dragon port. A combination of intuition, careful study and strategic planning could fuel the welder side of the equation, while the dragon combo is a plan B of sorts. Probably will not break the format or even be tier 1, but I don't see why WGD can't come off the banned list.

freakish777

02-14-2009, 12:49 AM

First things first:

Wizards wanted to ban a deck that was dominant in 1.5. They banned Bazaar, Entomb, and Dragon (granted Entomb is good in other decks as well).

Next:

The Oracle Wording on Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy are very different than what's actually printed on the cards. Further, the interaction between any of these and Dragon itself isn't easy to explain to a new player. Complicated combos that rely on cards that were printed with the words "Enchant Dead Creature" aren't exactly good for encouraging new players to get into the game (or say, Extended players to get into the format).

@Omega, all of the occasions I have seen have ended in a draw. The loop is not considered slow playing because there is nothing that can be done to end it (no other option available, no decision to make, thus no stalling), so the game just ends in a draw.

Also, I second "Tha Gunslinga", Dragon is trash in Vintage. There is a reason almost no one ever plays it, you can all figure out why.

As for Legacy and WD, I think the endless loop that MattH mentioned is probably the main reason it remains banned.

Third:

Dragon player wins the coin flip and goes first. Turn 1 Careful Study, Turn 2 Animate Dead, draw the game. Game 2, Dragon player goes first again (any judge can tell you), turn 1 Rit Buried Alive, turn 2 Animate Dead, win. Game 3 (opponent on play), players fight back and forth until the Dragon player staring at lethal damage from attackers decides to Necromancy his Dragon in declare blockers. Game 4 (opponent on play), the opponent finally gets in there. Game 5, Dragon on play draws the game on turn 2 again. Game 6, Dragon on play draws the game in declare attackers again. Game 7, Dragon on play wins on turn 3.

Now I don't think Dragon would actually be good enough for me to play, but it would be annoying as fuck to play against if we can expect to play more than 3 games in match.

Leave it banned. Who cares?

SpatulaOfTheAges

02-14-2009, 02:03 AM

Let's ban Lifeline and Ice Cauldron then.

DeathwingZERO

02-14-2009, 08:47 AM

First things first:(snip)
Next:(snip)
Third:(snip)

Leave it banned. Who cares?

First:

They banned much more than a dominant deck. They banned the most dominant cards. Bazaar was enough to nuke Dragon, they just figured we'd find a way to break it without Bazaar. Unfortunately, they also took Entomb, which was the only viable way to get it into the yard fast enough, and probably would have been enough to keep it viable without Bazaar. Unfortunately, we'll never know that. There's no chance both cards will come off that list.

Second:

The combo is relatively simple to explain to someone who's played in tournaments enough to at least understand the stack. If they can't grasp that, they really don't belong in Legacy. In fact, I've done it numerous times with people that never saw the deck before in Vintage, and it takes about 30 seconds. Really not a time concern, or a rules headache. It just FEELS like cheating.

I play animate spell x, it resolves. It targets Dragon, and Dragon attatches. Dragon's CiP triggers, sending permanents out. When aura leaves, LP triggers happen, cards come back into play untapped, Dragon goes back to yard. Repeat.

It's about as difficult to explain as Astral Slide, really.

Third:

While I haven't read over every placing of the deck, I've almost never seen this type of thing happen. To be lucky enough to EVERY game pull off a turn 1 draw is....miraculous. It requires not only Bazaar, but at least two mana, one needing to be black. Not a simple thing to ask for in two turns with no card draw. And to be honest, if I know I had a setup for a first turn draw, I'm pretty good for a second turn win. Not sure if I'd be in the minority there, but winning > draw.

Not doubting it can happen, just saying this type of situation is far too rare for DCI to actually consider it a viable reason to ban it, at least on it's own merit.

And seriously people. The deck is still viable. It's taken a lot of collateral damage to Ichorid decks, but with Ichorid being on a somewhat downhill trend, WGD can still thrive. People just really suck at playing it. But that's still not a part of this discussion, bring it back to TMD.

Doesn't mean it's going to do the same with Legacy, though. No Bazaar = no speed.

Nihil Credo

02-14-2009, 07:39 PM

Let's ban Lifeline and Ice Cauldron then.

Poor Shahrazad...

freakish777

02-14-2009, 09:50 PM

If they can't grasp that, they really don't belong in Legacy.

This attitude pisses me off. Yes, walking into a tournament and getting destroyed because you're a casual player will happen, but that doesn't mean you should walk away with a sour taste in your mouth because of a dumb combo that's slightly complicated, but more so because the cards work differently than as printed.

To be lucky enough to EVERY game pull off a turn 1 draw is....miraculous. It requires not only Bazaar, but at least two mana, one needing to be black.

Let's only talk about Legacy, ok? Drawing the game on turn 2 (on the play) isn't that hard (Careful Study + Animate Dead), and is strategically superior to mulliganning (against non-control decks) because it gives you 7 cards instead of 6 (your 7 cards could even all be good cards and you see City of Brass + Ponder from your opponent putting them on Storm combo, so why not just Draw so you can get a kill or disruption next game).

Furthermore, drawing the game on turn 3 or 4 is probably also viable (against decks that aren't locking you out with Trini or CounterTop).

While Bazaar of Baghdad is what powered the deck, here are some alternatives:

Duskmantle, House of Shadow (requires a discard outlet to bin Dragon, and an Underground Sea in play)
Merfolk Traders/Owl Familiar/Vodalian Merchant (requires two mana)
Bonded Fetch (requires 3 mana, repeatable).
Compulsion (requires 4 mana over 2 turns, repeatable).

By no means am I saying the deck would be out of control. I'm saying there's really no need to take it off the list, and I'm content not dealing with 4 and 5 game matches, and people bitching about "ZOMG Dragon is sooo stupid, it was never supposed to work that way, and neither was Animate Dead." In short, listen to 5% of people complain that Dragon is unfairly on the list is better than listening to 40% of people complain Dragon is unfun to play against.

b4r0n

02-14-2009, 10:23 PM

Your argument that Worldgorger Dragon and Animate Dead "work differently than as printed" is ridiculous. Let's look at the 4th Edition version:

Animate Dead
Enchant Dead Creature
Take target creature from any graveyard and put it directly into play under your control with -1/-0. Treat this creatures as though it were just summoned. If Animate Dead is removed, bury the creature in its owner's graveyard.

Earlier versions (Alpha through Revised) say basically the same thing. Fifth Edition is a little different:

Animate Dead
Enchantment
When you play Animate Dead, choose target creature card in any graveyard. When Animate Dead comes into play, put that creature into play and Animate Dead becomes a creature enchantment that targets the creature. Enchanted creature gets -1/-0. If Animate Dead leaves play, bury the creature.

Neither of those is misleading at all. The current Oracle wording of both of these cards is functionally identical to what's printed on the cards; there's really no way to misconstrue these cards as doing something different than their original wording. The Worldgorger Dragon combo is just a little complicated... but that's no reason for banning it. It's not really a rules loophole either, since all the cards work as they should. The interaction makes perfect sense. So basically, that whole line of argument is pretty weak.

Your other point is a little more valid. The ability to intentionally draw games as a superior way of mulliganing is a definitely unfair. However, keep in mind that removal/bounce/grave hate/Stifle/a creature in the graveyard would all stop that draw from happening. It's not like the Dragon player is guaranteed a draw every time they can assemble the combo.

freakish777

02-14-2009, 11:22 PM

The interaction makes perfect sense.

To an advanced player. I'm perfectly comfortable leaving it banned if we hear less whining from unexperienced players (and subsequently get more players into our format as a result). Leaving it banned isn't hurting anyone. Unbanning it potentially makes people complain about how unfun it is. Again, who cares?

undone

02-14-2009, 11:46 PM

b4r0n

02-15-2009, 12:41 AM

To an advanced player. I'm perfectly comfortable leaving it banned if we hear less whining from unexperienced players (and subsequently get more players into our format as a result). Leaving it banned isn't hurting anyone. Unbanning it potentially makes people complain about how unfun it is. Again, who cares?

It's really not that difficult to understand how comes into play and leaves play triggers work. I'm pretty sure that most players would be able to understand the combo.

If you're deciding what should be banned based on the whining of inexperienced players, then you're going to have a really strange ban list. To attract the most players to the format, it makes more sense to have a ban list that is the most conducive to deckbuilding creativity. Dragon is a combo archetype that probably wouldn't be any stronger than Cephalid Breakfast, but would still be able to compete in some metagames. Unless you're concerned that Dragon would be dominant in Legacy, why keep it on the list?

ParkerLewis

02-15-2009, 06:16 AM

Leave sleeping dogs lie.

I could pose the question "Why is dream halls banned" but I know its foolish. Simply put cards are on the banned list for a REASON, leave them there unless there was no way to handel the card before and it doesnt fule existing decks teir 1 decks or isnt a key card in an old deck.

Simply put

Leave

The

Sleeping

Dragon

Alone

This kind of reasoning implies that b&r decision ever made and to be made in the history of time was, is and will be the correct decision.

Clearly that's not true.

Viscosity

02-15-2009, 12:58 PM

SpatulaOfTheAges

02-15-2009, 01:54 PM

It is banned because the combo is too stupidly good. I played Gorger when it was available in 6 events; placing 1st in all but one (placed 2nd).

I did not have Bazaars and believe me, the deck goes off first turn all the freaking time w/o bazaar. But turn two was the most common.

It was like this:

First turn Kill: 15%
2nd Turn Kill: 55%
3rd turn kill: 20%
4th+: 10%

Stupid deck. Stupid combo. Stupid easy to win. If they unbanned it, I'd play Gorger in the GP. You don't need entomb to make it fast and ridiculous. It is 2x better than ANT, as it wouldn't be as weak to CB or burn/sligh.

No one really cares.

The deck is like a weaker Cephalid Breakfast.

It's nice that you pushed around some casual players with it back in the day, but that really has nothing to do with its power level.

The deck loses to graveyard hate, creature removal, disenchant effects, bounce, and faster decks.

Also, those numbers you just made up?

You know the weird thing about them?

You just made them up. Even with Bazaar those numbers weren't accurate for any but the Spoils builds. And that build was much less popular. And is completely unworkable without Bazaar or Entomb.

Leave sleeping dogs lie.

I could pose the question "Why is dream halls banned" but I know its foolish. Simply put cards are on the banned list for a REASON, leave them there unless there was no way to handel the card before and it doesnt fule existing decks teir 1 decks or isnt a key card in an old deck.

Simply put

Leave

The

Sleeping

Dragon

Alone

That's the dumbest reasoning ever.

They unbanned Replenish and Mind Over Matter, and the format didn't collapse.

And I don't think those cards just magically became less broken the week before the DCI decided to unban them.

I know you like bolded words and awkward spacing and all, but for real, an actual argument about the card would probably have served you better.

Poor Shahrazad...

I know, what the hell was that?

Most random banning ever.

02-15-2009, 05:38 PM

Why does this thread even exist? The card is garbage now. As one of the more prominent Dragon players in the old 1.5, I can comfortably say that the deck is absolute trash. Hell, even with Bazaar I don't know if it'd be good. Viable, maybe, but still ridiculously hard to work with. Do you see it doing anything in Vintage? Hell no! Why? Because it is A. Inferior to other Bazaar decks, and B. Packs it to all hate known to man.

When Dragon was legal, the only cards to worry about were bounce, StP/disenchant, Stifle, and Tormod's Crypt, and then Wasteland. Given how different that format was, it wasn't hard to deal with. Now, add Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Relic, Extirpate, Krosan Grip, Snuff Out, and all the other new and diverse cards, in a completely different format that is also much faster. The deck would be slower and more vulnerable than Cephalid Breakfast, as they at least have a backup plan. And look at how well that deck is doing these days.

Given the fact that it's an incredibly weak combo in the meta, and has horribly complicated rules and judge nightmares, it's fine to stay where it is. Playing Dragon in this format would be like playing Belcher trying to go off turn 2-3, except the opponent has 30 Force of Will in the deck, and you scoop to a single one.

Forbiddian

02-15-2009, 05:57 PM

I want to point out that Painter's Grind IS a two-card combo that costs 6, but it has zero redundancy. Grind NEEDS Painter. Painter can find some use outside of Grind, but it's better with Grindstone. In decks like Imperial Painter, it's easily a 9+ mana combo.

WGD is a two-card combo that costs five in Buried Alive + Animate Dead. But there are many ways to get a card into the graveyard. Careful Study, Intuition provide 12 cards that can bin WGD. Animate Dead can be Dance of the Dead or Necromancy.

The redundancy and relatively compactness of the combo is what makes WGD scary.

Maybe it's not as broken as Ichorid or TES is/are/were, but it has a lot of potential to be broken in half. WGD decks lacking Bazaar of Baghdad pre-split were still playable. I think if the community sat down and looked at an unbanned WGD, they would create a broken deck. I'm sure wizards is afraid of unbanning Dragon and then having to reban it (this would look terrible).

As for drawing games out indefinitely: A very stupid strategy. If you draw game 1 and go game 2, you allow your opponent to board, and he's likely to have hate coming in from the board that exceeds whatever you're bringing in. I think most combo players would rather go to 6 cards than go to game 2 with 7 cards, since they're likely to bring in 5+ anti-combo cards.

There is a chance that dragon will win game 1 and then draw out the next two games. That's probably a piss-off, but I think it'd be stunningly rare.

Going off with Dragon is fairly dangerous. A swords to plowshares leaves you with literally nothing and a disenchant or stifle leaves you with no permanents in play. In this situation, you will most certainly lose.

Best case scenario: You draw the game, netting you nothing.
Worst case scenario: You lose the game.

I don't think that a Dragon player will try that very often. And it's pretty bad deck construction if you can only win 1 out of 5 games that you have infinite mana, anyway.

Arrowni

06-03-2009, 07:28 AM

The consensus is that Worldgorger should be unbanned right?

Julian23

06-03-2009, 09:06 AM

unban teh frantic search!

I doubt there's some real consensus. If I recall correctly there's no consensus at all about the unbaning of certain cards. Well, maybe Dream Halls.

DragoFireheart

06-03-2009, 09:45 AM

Land Tax should be unbanned.

Yup, I just did it.

Gheizen64

06-03-2009, 12:53 PM

The consensus is that Worldgorger should be unbanned right?

And Metalworker.

Please, a THREE MANA 1/2 that doesn't do anything the turn that come into play and it's unless you load your deck with artifact?
Care to explain to me why this crappy card still banned?

Tax and some other too could come off from the list (Grim monolith? Earthcraft?)

emidln

06-03-2009, 01:09 PM

Dragon is banned because everyone hates game 4.

jjjoness'

06-03-2009, 01:32 PM

Dragon is banned because everyone hates game 17.
Fixed.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-03-2009, 01:41 PM

Dragon, which loses to every color, is a much healthier combo than Tendrils-Combo, which loses to blue and once in a while white or black. Ditto to Hermit Druid, and Metalworker.

DragoFireheart

06-03-2009, 06:48 PM

Dragon, which loses to every color, is a much healthier combo than Tendrils-Combo, which loses to blue and once in a while white or black. Ditto to Hermit Druid, and Metalworker.

Thing is, Dragon can also be blue and protect itself. Even worse, dragon player can say "LOLOLOLOL! LETS GO TO GAME 4!"

/sigh

Arrowni

06-03-2009, 07:54 PM

So we cannot play combos that protect themselves now? I believe that's one of the basis of having a viable combo archtype: That the deck is disruptable and has a way to protect itself.

It would be good to know if Wizards really thinks that Dragon is a problem because of the drawing (which can be stopped by something as cheap as mog fanatic), or if its a powerlevel thing (which is much more of a delusion since the decks is disruptable).

IF the deck is good, and that's a big if, you could always adapt a little your strategy to disrupt the ties -if you really care that much-.

DragoFireheart

06-03-2009, 08:13 PM

So we cannot play combos that protect themselves now?

Nah, but people don't want to play game 4 and 5 every time they go to fight Dragon.

Banelich

06-03-2009, 08:43 PM

I honestly don't give a damn whether WGD stays banned or not, but when it first got banned it really pissed me off because;

a) I didn't think of WGD / Animate dead first

b) At the time i was using it as a means to protect my crappy Sneak Attack deck from Naturalize.....Not that its very valid any more.......

Arrowni

06-04-2009, 10:24 AM

Nah, but people don't want to play game 4 and 5 every time they go to fight Dragon.

Maybe people would be encouraged to play more creatures. I mean, is not like the deck could draw games in any circumstance, one more creature in the graveyard and the loop stops.

I'm amazed of hearing how much people put draws as the top reason for Dragon not to be legal.

SpikeyMikey

06-05-2009, 07:05 AM

There's a lot of flaws in this statement.

The first, is that Dragon isn't being played in Vintage, when in reality, it's on a rise. It lost absolutely nothing to the blue bannings, and unlike Ichorid (the primary GY based deck to hate now), Dragon can say "I win" in response to Crypt or Relic, thanks to Necromancy. It's far more resilient than people believe. It's only real bane is Leyline, and at that point it slowrolls until it can win as soon as it's answered via Grip/Wipe Away/whatever.

In addition, all of the cards you listed are vulnerable to both countermagic and disruption, something Dragon plays at minimum 8 pieces of in the maindeck. Dragon has the luxury of being one of the few combo decks that can honestly control the opponent long enough to set itself up, and recover if necessary.

Given that, the deck requires both dedication in piloting, and insane amounts of tweaking for metagames, something the rest of our combo decks currently don't really need to do. Also, without Bazaar, the first turn wins are far more suicidal, and frankly storm combo is much more reliable with it's opening hands. In any rate, I don't see any of these reasons for keeping Dragon banned, aside from the idea that the pet deck of pre-Legacy combo players could very well be broken, and we just haven't had the time to set it up for the current metagame.

As far as the other statements, calling it a 2 card combo is misleading. The combo itself requires two cards, but the kill requires a third. Whether it be Laquatus, Trike, or a fireball/stroke/whatever to the dome, the combo itself is not lethal. Breakfast is a perfect example of this as well.

However, Grindstone + Servant is, and that's allowed, and completely colorless, so it can literally go into any mold whatsoever (even if most decks aren't built around it). So the idea of a 2 card combo being an automatic banning is also flawed.

On a side note, Wizards will not admit it openly, but a huge reason behind the banning of the Power 4 was money, not necessarily power levels. Drain, Workshop, Bazaar, and Mask rose in price so drastically that it wasn't good for the format to keep them in and still try to make Legacy viable, which was the objective of the split. One could also argue that the bannings were preemptive, but that seems a bit excessive. At the very least, I do not see Mask and Drain being as format warping as Bazaar and Workshop to be.

In the future, I'd like to see some of these cards come off the list, just for new stuff to work with. Even if they end up not being viable, at least they are there.

What do you mean they won't admit it openly? They said as much when they engineered the split. Some cards were banned for power level, some cards were banned for cost and a handful were banned because they're either ante cards or they're cards named chaos orb and falling star.

Michael Keller

06-05-2009, 08:17 AM

Actually, Daethwing is sadly mistaken: Dragon decks in the Vintage community are not on the rise. The reason you'll see Dragon decks place highly in tournaments is because no one hardly plays it anymore due to the disgusting amount of disruption it packs it in to. No one is legitimately prepared for it because it just isn't there.

Dragon is a good combo when it goes off, but there is absolutely no data to support Dragon-based combo decks as being "on the rise". They've been as steady as they've ever been since 2007. They'll pop up here and there, and when they do, they win. But that is not as often as you might think.