[Discussion] Disruption: Cards or Turns?

[morgan_coke]

EDIT: For the context of this debate, ignore pure WW, because it's creatures are too small and slow, instead think of aggressive decks that pack white and try to win with dudes, things like UGw Thresh, or RGW Zoo. Or even R/W goblins with S/OC taking the place of TS/CT in black splash versions.I don't have any brilliant ideas to address the lack of speed issue, but one thing I have been wondering about lately is the disruption issue. G/B decks will often run 8 - 12 discard spells (Thoughtseize, Therapy, + Duress/Hymn/Flashback) and generally are considered to have adequate disruption. Threshold and other blue aggro-control decks also usually run eight to twelve pieces of disruption (Daze, FoW, + Countertop).

Both of those types of discard focus on cards. That is, they deal with the opponents problematic cards by destroying them in hand or on the stack. The reason they do this is to buy extra turns. Generally discard buys one turn, sometimes zero if they topdeck correctly, and sometimes two or more if they topdeck badly. Counters generally buy one turn by tying up the opponents' mana. Sometimes counters buy more than one turn, sometimes (like if they have the extra mana to pay Daze, they buy none.)

So discard and counterspells both have a general return of one extra turn bought. White doesn't have discard or counters that are worth mentioning. White does however have access to a form of disruption that blue and black don't. Spell denial.

Orim's Chant and Silence specifically buy you one extra turn and one extra turn only. Their return is much more predicable than the return on investment you get from counters or from discard. It's one card invested for one turn gained.

I think this has led to underexplored design space in white disruptive aggro. White decks generally just run a bunch of dudes, some of whom have annoying side effects that can be played around (Glowrider, True Believer, etc.) This has traditionally been white's form of disruption in aggro.

But what if you instead focused on disruption that buys extra turns? i.e., maindecking 4x Silence and 4x Chant to give the deck the ability to "buy" extra turns from the opponent? I'm really curious to see what others have to say about this, because I don't think it's ever been tried, and because it seems like it might have some potential.

I don't know that "buying turns" explicitly is superior or inferior to doing it by discarding cards or countering spells, but I think it's a topic worth talking about.

[Pinder]

Interesting thought. I mean, Chant is at least as good against combo as it is in combo, so it couldn't be all bad.

The only think you would have to watch out for, methinks, is making sure you still keep your threat density high enough. It doesn't matter if you have Chant and Abeyance if your dudes aren't going to get there in the time you buy.

Plus, white weenie's creatures sort of suck.

[morgan_coke]

Plus, white weenie's creatures sort of suck.

Outside of Serra Avenger, whom I've received a restraining order for stalking from, I have to agree with that. Maybe green creatures then? Or red ones? I don't want to get into a big argument about lists or anything, just talking about the viability of the various forms of disruption and how they compare to each other.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As Pinder said; Wizards, in their infinite wisdom, decided to give us Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf. Is it really worth running less versatile disruption to run less powerful creatures? What's the motivation to go monowhite? Even Exalted Angel with mana acceleration is crap these days.

[bowvamp]

Remember the S. Menendian article on SCG a while back? Well now that it's free, I noticed that what he did with Parfait is alot like this except more controlling. He did run 2 creatures, which is huge for anything in Vintage. If Vintage can, we can!

[Forbiddian]

Abeyance doesn't buy you a turn. It only stops Instants and Sorceries. Most decks say, "Ok...." and then play a Tarmogoyf.

Orim's Chant costs you a card.

Also, you have to DO something with your turn. If you hold lands to chant your opponent, you're obviously slowing yourself down as well. White Weenie is already slow.



Daze is free, stops a card of theirs, and buys you a turn in the same sense as Orim's Chant (because they invested in that card).

Also, the chant-style is horrible without multiples.

One chant or abeyance doesn't do crap. Odds are they have some instants they can just play during your turn and they're not even slowed down at all (maybe forced into some slightly unideal play, but your card didn't force them to sit on their ass, they're still investing all their mana in hand development.

I dunno, I hope you can see how ridiculous it is.


If you're going to give up cards for turns, you have to actually DO something with those turns. The decks that run Chant/Abeyance will chant or abeyance their opponent until the end of the game. Usually just one turn or they run Scepter Chant.

"White Knight, Chant during your turn lolol" is NOT improving your board position enough to make it worth it. Next turn, they'll have -2 or -3 life, but generally be in the same position.

[mercenarybdu]

cards, less viable options means less chances of winning.

Cards>Turns

[PunkRocker1134]

As Pinder said; Wizards, in their infinite wisdom, decided to give us Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf. Is it really worth running less versatile disruption to run less powerful creatures? What's the motivation to go monowhite? Even Exalted Angel with mana acceleration is crap these days.

Does it have to be Monowhite? Maybe G/W with Abeyance and Orim's Chant as key pieces of disruption? This way you get beaters, like Tarmogoyf, and disruptive creatures. Probably won't go anyway but it is a thought

[kicks_422]

Would that be better than say, G/B, with the same beaters you mentioned, but with discard (Thoughtseize/Duress/Hymn) instead of Chant/Abeyance? Because Eva Green exists, and that G/W deck you had in mind doesn't.

[spirit of the wretch]

I think it's generally agreed that the reason white aggro isn't seen more in Legacy is a lack of speed and a lack of disruption. (also known as "loses to combo" syndrome).

Don't forget the "loses to a blue enchantment" syndrome. They are much more prevalent in todays metagame and seem the main reason to me, why aggro in general isn't played more often. Chant/Abeyance doesn't do much to cure this syndrome!

[Iare]

Maindecking chant is kinda iffy specially if you're not playing combo. That being said the best deck for such a stradegy I think is boros.deck

Typical cards for Boros include

Lightning bolt - No matter what people say this is still good :P
Lightning helix - Burn+ Lifegain I like it
Figure of destiny- Can be pumped at instant speed, makes leaving chant mana open less of a tempo loss. Can be come rediculously fat on very... very rare occasions.
Jotun grunt - Just good.
Isamaru- Quickly outclassed but sometimes run anyway, every point counts
Mogg fanatic sometimes .. Good against bridges, bobs, shades, lacky , birds, and can always ping for that last 1
Serra avenger - Easy to dispatch ... loses to tombstalker ... Probably not worth it
Price of progress - absolute staple Price of progress > format
Fireblast- This and price of progress are reasons to run red ...
Swords
Soltari priest , Soltari monk - Monk is better than priest these days except of course goblins or goyf sly. Only 2 damage a turn ... I dunno how I feel about this seems slow.
Flame tongue kavu- I feel compelled to put this here but its expensive doesn't kill what you want it to kill half the time (Tombstalker) and won't always take out goyf without grunt online. Also, costs 4 and trades with goose and factory in a fight....

It's not a bad deck per say specially for the sideboard cards and or general meta hate you wanna pack in the board some thoughts.

Patrician's scorn - good against counter balance, even more so if you chant them. And, you will never lose games 2 and 3 against enchantress with these in the board.
Disenchant is old school but always handy
Tormods crypt / relic, sometimes grunt isnt enough grave hate could also put morning tide in here
Pyrotastic pillar - Can burn combo into fireblast range all by itself , especially good against ad neseum. Also, must counter for ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh I've seen it wreck many thresh players day :D
Supression field - fetch and top hate slows down deed and explosives and other random stuff like shackles
Ank of mishra - Fetch burn ;)
Seal of cleansing - Answers counterbalance pre-emtivly as well as standstill but not worth it imho plus stiflable

Oh and if you wanna buy a turn Final Fortune would like to have a word with you. I can't say its a good card but it definitly gives you a turn.

[morgan_coke]

Given that wizards just printed "Silence" a new "no spells for a turn" variant that costs W, I think this question should be revisited.

If you're playing something like RGW zoo, can you use 4x chant, 4x silence as a replacement for Thoughtseize/Therapy?

If you think the point of TS/CT is to buy your aggressive strategy the extra two attack phases you need for the kill, then I think the answer is an unequivocal yes.

If you think the point of TS/CT is to prevent your opponent from using a specific card for more than one turn then I'm not sure.

Silence/Chant don't suffer from brainstorm/top/ponder/random topdeck issues, but they can never buy you more than one turn. Whereas TS/CT have a higher ceiling (potentially buying several turns) and a lower floor (not buying any turns at all).

To put it in investment terms, S/OC are treasury bonds, they'll always do the same one thing, no matter what, while TS/CT are like emerging markets funds, sometimes they'll do spectacularly, sometimes they'll fail horribly.

If consistency is key in magic, then wouldn't the more consistent option be a better choice?

For the context of this debate, ignore pure WW, because it's creatures are too small and slow, instead think of aggressive decks that pack white and try to win with dudes, things like UGw Thresh, or RGW Zoo. Or even R/W goblins with S/OC taking the place of TS/CT in black splash versions.

[Atwa]

I don't think this kind of logic is that bad. I'm actually curious to find out what a deck could do which packs:

- 4 Orim's Chant
- 4 Silence
- 4 Abeyance
- 2/3 Armageddon

Add some cost efficient creatures to this and start testing. If you can disrupt your opponent's turns a few times denying them the ability to cast spells and destroy their lands after playing a few critters while they have only been able to go land -> go, that should give you a big enough advantage to win the game. At least you would have an aggro deck able to beat combo.

I could also see this working in Zoo, but the first line of thought I'd have would be WW with a little green splash. Something like (just a fast brainstorm):

7 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Rifstone Portal

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Serra Avenger
3 Eternal Witness
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 True Believer
2 Anurid Brushopper
2 Exalted Angel
1 Intrepid Hero

4 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
4 Abeyance
3 Armageddon
2 Isochron Scepter

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
4 Pithing Needle
3 Gaddock Teeg

Just as a rough draft. I'm not saying it will be any good, but at least I'll be testing it for the fun of it. I'm ready curious what a deck is capable of when 20% of it's cards read: You can only play a land this turn (ok, not abeyance, but you understand what I mean).

[SpikeyMikey]

The logic breaks down very quickly when you examine it.

You're basing your whole theory on the idea that Duress et al. are good because they buy you a turn. This is a false premise. There's a reason why cards like Life from the Loam are so amazing against counterspells, because all you do when you counter them is buy a turn. Thoughtseizing a top isn't about denying your opponent a turn 1 play, it's about messing with their entire game plan. Stopping LftL for a turn, or two turns, or even 3 turns is generally not enough of an advantage to win.

[KillemallCFH]

I've been messing around with a deck that uses Orim's Chant as a tempo card on and off for like the past year or so. It originally ran a full set of Chants and Abeyances, but the Abeyances were quickly cut. Chant is very useful as a pseudo-Time Walk, and can win close damage races. It can occasionally also help you push though a spell you really need to resolve. The fact that it gives a deck which would otherwise stand little chance against combo a fighting chance game 1 is just icing on the cake. Now, it is probably my most sided out card, but it is never really dead, and serves its role. Is it really necessary? Maybe not. It might get cut from my deck eventually, but for now, I'll be happy taking (pseudo-)Time Walks and making sure my Bobs resolve.

As far as Silence, I'm not really sure it warrants inclusion. Without the kicker, it is much less useful as a MD card. Eight Chants might be really good, though, I don't know.

[ParkerLewis]

cards, less viable options means less chances of winning.

Cards>Turns

Yeah, that's what we all thought in 1995.

And then, in April 1996, a guy named Paul sligh built a deck with Dwarves and a curve.

Want the list ? Right here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/ash24). It's all the hot news everyone is talking about.

[Atwa]

Yeah, that's what we all thought in 1995.

And then, in April 1996, a guy named Paul sligh built a deck with Dwarves and a curve.

Want the list ? Right here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/ash24). It's all the hot news everyone is talking about.

Oh so true. The community named a whole archetype to that guy :smile:

[bowvamp]

Well, we could always run something like this that I've been toying around with:

4 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Isochron Scepter
4 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Isamaru Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Cataclysm
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port

Basically, it's super disruption D&T.

EDIT:
Silence foo! No, seriously there is now a card named silence spoiled for M10 on the mothership. When I get that card, I'm gonna alter it and write FOO in lightning letters on the picture over the dudes mouth. That means we can now run this:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
4 Abeyance
3 Isochron Scepter
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 StP
4 PtE
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mana Tithe
4 Runed Halo
2 Viseling (closest thing to black vise)
4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains

Oh, lol black vise is banned, I see...

[Atwa]

Nice lists Bowvamp, but Black Vise is banned.