[Premium Article] The Tribes of Legacy

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17097_So_Many_Insane_Plays_A_Birds_Eye_View_of_Legacy_The_Tribes_of_Legacy.html


Monday, February 16th - In the first of a promising series, Stephen Menendian and Matthieu Durand examine Legacy from the ground up. Today, they concentrate on the tribes that make up a slew of powerful creature-fueled options in the format.

Enjoy!

[Jak]

I can't read this yet, but I am glad you are starting to write about Legacy more. Thanks Stephen.

[C.P.]

Article in general was well written and informative, but few concerns:

1. Why Mono-R list for Goblins? Warren Wierdings are more popular than ever, and and so it grips and Hooligans. You do mention Green splash, but neglect to mention black, which seems pretty important right now.

2. Elves: Chalice of the Void? Also it seems to lack an answer to Sharpshooter or Counterbalance.

I like fae list, though. seems like a lot of fun.

[Smmenen]

CP: Take a closer look at the second on Goblins. We talk about the black splash.

@ Jak: Thanks! I plan on continuing to write about Legacy on a regular basis.

[AngryTroll]

Awesome! More Legacy articles from Steve.

Are you planning on continuing to write about the format after the GP, or just as a build up to it?

You've written more Premium Legacy articles in the last month or two than there have been in years (of the Premium Legacy articles); I am finally considering purchasing a membership for them.

Keep up the good work!

[Fossil4182]

I liked the article and it had some interesting points. I think it will help gear some folks up for the GP which is the overall point. I was surprised that while Faeries was discussed as a tribal deck Faerie Stompy was not.

[Anusien]

Faerie Stompy doesn't exploit tribal synergies.

[Skeggi]

I was surprised that while Faeries was discussed as a tribal deck Faerie Stompy was not.
Look at a random Faerie Stompy decklist and see why.

As for the article:

The information you are attempting to view is only available to StarCityGames.com Premium Members.
Boo!

[Artowis]

Pretty worthless if you've played Legacy and pretty good if you haven't / just started.

[C.P.]

He raises Interesting point, though.

For those who does not have Premium, his elf section was devoted to Glimpse version of the deck, tuned for legacy. He also expressed surprise about how deck is totally not mentioned in the Source, and thought this deck was very strong, thus should see fair bit of play.

He, However, did not mention how the deck beats Counterbalance and Chalice.

[Artowis]

He raises Interesting point, though.

For those who does not have Premium, his elf section was devoted to Glimpse version of the deck, tuned for legacy. He also expressed surprise about how deck is totally not mentioned in the Source, and thought this deck was very strong, thus should see fair bit of play.

He, However, did not mention how the deck beats Counterbalance and Chalice.

To be fair, that's completely obvious to anyone who has an inkling of what the deck is supposed to be doing.

You either:
A. Win before it matters
B. Get enough of an Elf presence down where you at least have a shot at taking the game, though this is about 1000x easier with Jitte.
C. Find and use Viridian Shaman (Obviously only for Chalice)
D. Cast Natural Order (Which I realize isn't in his build, but I can't imagine some people not adding this into a deck which has a valid plan of casting Regal Force to begin with)

[Nihil Credo]

I don't have Premium. What's in the article regarding Merfolk?

[Eldariel]

I simply can't see a reason to play Elves over Storm-combo. Storm is faster, packs more disruption (latest TES-lists have what, 4 Chants and a few Duresses?), can ignore creature removal and has much more consistent means of digging up the combo pieces.

Both are hit by the same hate, both have about the same tools of dealing with the said hate; I'm just not seeing any advantages in playing Elves over Storm other than the occasional Elf-beats win, which seems rather poor given how many Elves you need to win through even just a single Tarmogoyf. And is the beatdown option really worth not being able to pack disruption of your own and being vulnerable to creature removal disrupting the combo?


I thought the article was solid though. The Elves-list is unproven and Fae haven't quite put up numbers comparable to Merfolk, but they're both reasonable archetypes. I couldn't see myself piloting Fae over a more robust control-deck with more dedicated draw and counters and less slots wasted on winning the game, but the GP will probably see a decent number of them as Extended-ports.

[Toad]

I simply cant see a reason to play Elves over Storm-combo.
Card availability is a good reason for playing Elves over Storm Combo, and a lot of the GP players will be coming there with their Legacy decks. Elves is overall more consistent than Storm Combo, and can win easily through hand disruption, though I dont know if this is extremely relevant. Furthermore, we just went through the important tribes here, without taking relative power levels into account.


Fae havent quite put up numbers comparable to Merfolk
Surprisingly, I had a similar exchange with Stephen when discussing the article skeleton. I suggested Faeries, since the deck has performed a bit in France, and he suggested Merfolk, which surprised me since I had never seen it played in France (and did not really look at the US metagame lately). Both decks have their strength and cannot really be compared regardless since they have radically different game plans. Faeries is close to Threshold while Merfolk is close to Slivers. Faeries impressive success in Extended is also another reason to mention it there, as people will surely give it a try at GP.


I was surprised that while Faeries was discussed as a tribal deck Faerie Stompy was not.
Faerie Stompy is an Ancient Tomb deck, and will be covered in the second part of the article.

[Di]

For those who does not have Premium, his elf section was devoted to Glimpse version of the deck, tuned for legacy. He also expressed surprise about how deck is totally not mentioned in the Source, and thought this deck was very strong, thus should see fair bit of play.


That actually isn't true; there's an entire thread (maybe two) devoted to Glimpse Elves. I have no idea where they are though, but I've read through them. We basically can every viable tribe covered somewhere between all the Magic-related forums.

I also wish I could read this, because I'd at least like to know what could be said of my guilty pleasure (Elves), although I'm under the impression it's purely Glimpse-based and not stuff towards my own builds.

[Anusien]

I simply can't see a reason to play Elves over Storm-combo. Storm is faster, packs more disruption (latest TES-lists have what, 4 Chants and a few Duresses?), can ignore creature removal and has much more consistent means of digging up the combo pieces.
Storm combo generally seems to have a harder time putting 6-10 power on the board by turn 2. They're going to struggle even more to do it and have anything left.

Considering what the Extended deck often wins through (Chalice, Firespout, EE), Swords to Plowshares seems like not that big of a deal if you find some plan to deal with Counterbalance. It seems pretty silly to assume some people won't get 56 slots of the deck right, maindeck 4 Krosan Grip and smash face.

[Eldariel]

Storm combo generally seems to have a harder time putting 6-10 power on the board by turn 2. They're going to struggle even more to do it and have anything left.

Considering what the Extended deck often wins through (Chalice, Firespout, EE), Swords to Plowshares seems like not that big of a deal if you find some plan to deal with Counterbalance. It seems pretty silly to assume some people won't get 56 slots of the deck right, maindeck 4 Krosan Grip and smash face.

The extended version boasts a difficult Faeries MU at best. I can't imagine it getting any better when aggro/control's counters turn free and removal is cheaper. And really, most Legacy-removal either hits multiple targets, costs 1 or is free; see StP, Bolt, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Mogg Fanatic, Fire//Ice, EE, Deed, etc. I can only think of Shriekmaw, Oblivion Ring, Warren Weirdings, Gempalm Incinerator and Vindicate for single-targeted removal that costs more than 1.

[C.P.]

although I'm under the impression it's purely Glimpse-based and not stuff towards my own builds.

You're mostly correct. Maybe there was a line or so, but I read it right before I went to sleep, and I'm at work, so I'll confirm this later.

As far as merforlk goes, nothing out of usual.

[Anusien]

The extended version boasts a difficult Faeries MU at best. I can't imagine it getting any better when aggro/control's counters turn free and removal is cheaper. And really, most Legacy-removal either hits multiple targets, costs 1 or is free; see StP, Bolt, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Mogg Fanatic, Fire//Ice, EE, Deed, etc. I can only think of Shriekmaw, Oblivion Ring, Warren Weirdings, Gempalm Incinerator and Vindicate for single-targeted removal that costs more than 1.
A large part of that is the combination of EE, 2 for 1 counters and Ancestral Visions. A lot of times the deck could fight through the initial wave, but then Ancestral Visions unsuspends and the opponent cannot keep up anymore. Extended adapted, sure, but is was an awful lot of hate around and Elves keeps doing fine.

Edit: I continue to have a hard time taking Stephen seriously when he uses MWS randoms to judge a format on the whole.

In testing, I (Stephen) came across many very competent Legacy players who had very little idea what I was even doing when I was playing Elves. Players became confused, quiet, or simply disconnected, especially as I started to combo out.
My whole SCG reply (http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?p=1001287#1001287)

[Toad]

Edit: I continue to have a hard time taking Stephen seriously when he uses MWS randoms to judge a format on the whole.
When I discussed Elves! with local Legacy players, ones that are hardcore in the format and play nothing else but Legacy, they either laughed at the idea of going turn 1 Llanowar Elves, or mentioned odd cards like Survival of the Fittest and Anger (training wheels!). It is not about MWS only, it is a widespread idea about Elves! in Legacy.

You will also notice that Stephen did not judge the format on the whole with his assertion, but made a simple comment, and a perfectly valid one.

[Zach Tartell]

Edit: I continue to have a hard time taking Stephen seriously when he uses MWS randoms to judge a format on the whole.



Mr. Kettle? Mr. Pot is on the line. Says it's urgent, sir. Something about you being black.

[Anusien]

Mr. Kettle? Mr. Pot is on the line. Says it's urgent, sir. Something about you being black.
I haven't used MWS testing against randoms as the basis of a deck in over a year or more. I certainly don't brag about getting <System> Player Lost.

[Apex]

I liked the article, and I'm looking forward to the next part, where we go past the tribal section and maybe into the "engine" part. Though I wish Stephen can cover legacy more, not just before the GP, I like his writing style.

[Smmenen]

I liked the article, and I'm looking forward to the next part, where we go past the tribal section and maybe into the "engine" part. Though I wish Stephen can cover legacy more, not just before the GP, I like his writing style.

Thank you. Matthieu and I appreciate the positive feedback. It makes it worth it, and encourages us to continue to write for Legacy.

Flame snipped---frogboy




My whole SCG reply (http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?p=1001287#1001287)


I am banned from the SCG forums.

[Paradigm Shift]

I can remember back to when I read Starcity and only played Type 2, Block, and drafted. If I still had never played a game of Legacy, this article would have been very informative, and the 'busted' hands put forward for Elves! and Goblins would have probably gotten me interested enough to load the deck up in Apprentice and play it. As far as I'm concerned, this article was a success in that it got Stephen's points and ideas about Legacy across. I don't think he was trying to give players the hottest tech and the top of the line decklists for Legacy, but give skeleton-style ideas of each deck, and inform players about the different tribes they might encounter at the GP.

Obviously articles on Starcity aren't going to be geared towards Sourcers, because I'm sure a small percentage of users on this site read Premium on Starcity, and an even smaller percent (obviously) of all Starcity Premium accounts belong to people who play Legacy competitively. This GP is obviously creating interest in an otherwise relatively small format, so Stephen has to start making articles about something that a large number of people who read them will be novices to, thus explaining his approach.

Good article, probably could have been a little more in-depth for a premium article.

[Charlatan]

Could some make somthing for not premium members?
I cant read this article :frown:

ty

[diffy]

Lists are up.

Faeries (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23312), Merfolk (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23311), Elves (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23310).

[Valarne]

Great article.

Seeing some more legacy-articles were on the way, I paid for the premium-ness, and was not disappointed.

Your former tournament reports were excellent as well, due to the high degree of details.

Rock on.

[Shawn]

I'm mainly want to see the elf and merfolk list.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Stephen%20Menendian%20and%20Matthieu%20Durand

The merfolk list is missing four cards, though.

[KrzyMoose]

The merfolk list is missing four cards, though.

...which are obviously AEther Vial.

As people have said, this was a strong introduction/overview article, which seems appropriate as non-Legacy players (ie, the bulk of SCG's premium account holders) prepare for GP: Chicago.

Keep up the good work! (Read: Keep writing about Legacy!)

[Smmenen]

.

Keep up the good work! (Read: Keep writing about Legacy!)


Thank you! I hope you like Monday's article!

[Smmenen]

This article is now free! Enjoy!