[Discussion] Black Removal, Wretched Banquet and more

[Bardo]

(This was going to be an Adept Question, but I think it will have a better life in this forum.)

In the context of the Grand Prix: Columbus, black is looking to be an attractive color as I'll bet tribal decks will be out in force: Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, Slivers and Faeries. These are all relatively cheap to build, pack a lot of power and don't require the level of practice and skill that one needs to master TES, for instance.

The design of these decks of tribal decks is pretty well explored: lots of cheap creatures with low P/T, but strong tribal interactions, such as P/T buffing (+1/+1), flying, haste, shroud, Islandwalk, etc.

Pyroclasm has always been a strong weapon against cheap creature hordes, but 2 damage is not often enough vs. the tribes that pump toughness (mainly, Slivers and Merfolk). The three damage that Firespout does is usually enough, but R/G forces stringent mana requirements, especially for control and aggro-control decks (unless you're playing Thrash of DreadStill).

Against tribal decks, Engineered Plague (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=37255) is probably the most powerful spell available at a reasonable cost (i.e. excluding Tsabo's Decree). Plague has an immediate effect when it hits the board (killing all x/1s); must be answered (outside of Slivers w/ multiple Muscle/Sinew Slivers on the board); dodges Counterbalance at 1 and 2; and can be used to counter opposing Krosan Grips with your own CB. Also, double Engineered Plagues is often game vs. your opponent.

If you want to run Engineered Plague in your sideboard and playing white for Swords to Plowshares forces you into four colors, it's a good time to reassess black's spot removal if 1) you want to have some color discipline and remain 3c for Wasteland, Price of Progress and other forms of non-basic hate and/or 2) because you're running Wasteland of your own.

Black's spot removal has always been second tier compared to Sword to Plowshares because of the various drawbacks R&D tacks onto the black cards to keep their power level in check (ex., "destroy target non-black creature," restrictions on creature size, doesn't target, etc.) Anyway, Tacosnape brought my attention to an innocuous common from Conflux, Wretched Banquet.

Wretched Banquet
Card type: Sorcery
Casting cost: B
Oracle text: Destroy target creature if it has the least power or is tied for least power among creatures in play.

This has a lot going for it:

* 1 mana! (that's huge)
* Can kill black creatures
* No CMC or size restrictions (in a vacuum)

On the downside, it's a sorcery and sometimes your targeting options are limited if there are multiple dudes on the board. Still, it's probably good enough to put it on the short-list of cheap black removal:

* Smother: 2-mana instant, can't kill something bigger than CMC 3
* Ghastly Demise: 1-mana instant; can't kill black creatures or fatties in the early game
* Diabolic Edict: 2-mana instant; can't target (which is a bit of a liability vs. tribal decks with their high threat density)

So, how does Wretched Banquet stack up against the other playable black removal spells versus an assortment of typical Legacy threats that will quickly kill you if left unchecked:

* Turn 1 Goblin Lackey on the play
* 5/6 Tarmogoyf
* Dark Confidant (any phase of the game)
* Tombstalker
* Pyrexian Dreadnought

Smother: Can't kill the Lackey before it triggers; kills the Goyf regardless of size; kills the Confidant any time in the game; can't kill the Tombstalker, ever; can kill the Dreadnought any time.

Good: Killing Goyfs, Bobs and Dreadnoughts
Bad: Killing T1 Lackey when on the play or Tombstalker

(All things considered, Smother is decent in this metagame, with the exception of being a brick against Tombstalker and too slow vs. T1 Goblin Lackey. Anecdotally, whenever I play it, Smother feels underpowered to me. It gets the job done, but I'm never all "Woot" about it.)

Ghastly Demise: Can kill the T1 Lackey only if you also have a fetchland in your opening draw (you need at least 1 card in the GY); can kill the Tarmogoyf (only if you have enough cards in your GY -- both cards scale as the game progresses); can't kill the Bob or Stalker, ever; probably won't be able to kill the Dreadnought until like turn 8 or so. Bizarrely, also nerfed by Relic of Progenitus.

Good: Killing Lackeys and Goyfs (more or less)
Bad: Killing Bobs, Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts

(All things considered, Ghastly Demise is pretty shitty in this metagame.)

Diabolic Edict: This is a powerful spell but also difficult to generalize since it's "goodness" depends on your opponent's board. Like, if you need to nail the 12/12 trampler but your opponent can sac their Trinket Mage or activated Factory, it pretty much blows. On the other hand, it's the only card on this list that can kill Goyfs, Bob, Stalkers, Dreadnoughts and a few other threats that nothing else here can touch, such as the shroud creatures (Nimble Mongoose) and Pro: Black (Mystic Enforcer). Diabolic Edict is also one of the few playable cards in the game that can kill Progenitus (via Natural Order or Show and Tell). It's as bad vs. T1 Lackey as Smother, and generally sub-par, relative to other cards on this list, versus tribal decks which present a large number of opposing creatures; that is, if you don't run enough sweepers to regulate your opponent's board.

Good and Bad: Hard to say, I think it stacks up favorably vs. Smother and may be the best card in this bunch vs. the current metagame.

Wretched Banquet: Like Diabolic Edict, Wretched Banquet is also a difficult card to speak of in general terms. On the one hand, it's one of the few cards that can kill the T1 Lackey almost unconditionally. And, depending on the board, it can also be used to nail Goyfs, Bobs (it's very good at killing these), Dreadnoughts and Tombstalkers. In some ways, it's almost as flexible as Swords to Plowhshares (except it's a sorcery, not instant) and can kill a very broad range of threats. On the other hand, it suffers a similar problem as Diabolic Edict: conditionally weak depending on the board (your side and your opponents). It's almost laughingly awful when your opponent's board is a 3/3 Nimble Mongoose and a 5/6 Goyf and you can't kill either. Diabolic Edict will at least kill the least valuable creature to your opponent. Still, if things go right, it's almost as flexible as Swords to Plowshares for a single mana, which is the measure of all spot removal cards.

Good and Bad: Hard to say, outside of killing the T1 Lackey.

Okay, question time.

* Do you predict many tribal decks at GP Columbus?
* Is Engineered Plague the right tool for these decks or is there something better?
* Of the playable black removal spells, which is the most optimal for the current metagame?

[morgan_coke]

What about Echoing Decay? It's crap vs. Tombstalker/Goyf/Dreadnought, but it does excel vs. tribal decks which will often have multiple copies of the same dude out. It also lets you combat trick kill everything but Dreadnought.

If you're really expecting tons and tons of tribal, there are a lot of worse options. Plus it's not horrible vs. combo since it "counters" a resolved EtW.

[Bardo]

I forgot all about that card.

Echoing Decay
Card type: Instant
Casting cost: 1B
Card text: Target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature get -2/-2 until end of turn.

While it's as good vs. Lackey as Smother and Edict and perfectly fine for killing Bobs, it still fails the "Kill a Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnought" test. Otherwise, Echoing Truth seems a little more flexible and is just as much a killer vs. EtW tokens.

I suppose I could have added Paralyze (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=17003) to the list above as well (though it's pretty vulnerable to EE/Deed).

[Shtriga]

There is also Vendetta. It's a 1 mana instant and destroys any non-black creature, but the lifeloss might be an issue against threats such as dreadnought or a big tarmogoyf.

[Zir]

Where's Snuff Out on the list? Kills Naught, Lackey and Goyf, but it can't touch Stalker nor Bob. Still, being able to play it for free as well as dodging counterbalance most of the time counts for something.

[Infinitium]

Innocent Blood also does an admirable job of killing stuff dead at the low cost of B. Obviously only works in control decks, and then only if you also pack sweepers to rid the board of chaff every once in a while. Still a very powerful effect for its cost, and it's definetly better than Banquet in the right decks (ie it does get around Mongoose in the Thresh matchups).

[Team-Hero]

Darkblast, Terror, Inocent Blood, and Snuff Out are other very good options.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This greatly depends on the situation. Overall, I would say it is sort of the equivalent of Innocent Blood, but again, depends. Fleshbag Marauder should certainly make an appearance on the list. That card is pretty good.

As far as the best black removal spells in the format, again, depends on what you are expecting to play against. Against something like tribal aggro: Massacre, Infest, Contagion. Overall I think the three best black removal spells in the format are:

Snuff Out
Shriekmaw
Smother

[Bardo]

Darkblast, Terror, Inocent Blood, and Snuff Out are other very good options.

I was thinking in the context of black spot-removal in control. I should have been more clear, where the downsides of Snuff Out and Vendetta (life loss) being too severe a downside (besides which they can't kill Bobs and Stalkers), since they can't be too careless of their life total vs. aggro.

As for the exclusion of Terror, Shriekmaw, etc. I used the example of Ghastly Demise as a proxy for all of the "can't kill the black dude" cards.

Innocent Blood suffers the same problem as Diabolic Edict, while being cheaper and a little less flexible (as a sorcery). Ultimately, I think it's best suited in a deck with Rector or Gamekeeper which turns the downside into an engine card.

[Anusien]

Deathmark and Slay/Execute.

[Bardo]

Deathmark and Slay/Execute.
All sideboard cards -- and ho-hum, at best.

[C.P.]

Okay, question time.

* Do you predict many tribal decks at GP Columbus?


Yes. Goblins were always strong, and Recent popularity of Fairies and elves in Extended makes it a good porting target. Merfolk also seems to be fine, thanks to its good blue matchup.



* Is Engineered Plague the right tool for these decks or is there something better?


Plague + Darkblast Kills every tribal deck ever, barring Slivers. Plague alone, as we all know from the old days, is not enough to get goblins down.



* Of the playable black removal spells, which is the most optimal for the current metagame?

Snuff Out. then Edict.

EDIT: If it is UB, there is also Agony warp. Don't laugh, it actually is playable. So is Inversion and Last gasp. As far as control's concerned, I think right mix of Smother and Edict is the best you've got for now.

[Shugyosha]

Wretched Banquet is quite bad in Legacy because it sucks so hard against the DTB Threshold. Whenever your opponent gets a Nimble Mongoose out your Banquet is worth nothing anymore. Maybe sometime Goose and Goyf are tied for 3 power but that happens rarely.

I think Smother/Edict in a split is the most potent removal suite in black, because it can deal with any creature at instant speed, reasonable cost and effort without other drawbacks. Its still too slow for Lackey on the play but there is no such thing as perfect removal and when playing blue you have Blasts after sideboarding anyways.

[Shtriga]

There is also Rend Flesh (2B instant, destroy target non-spirit creature) and Unmake (BBB instant, RFG any creature). They're strong, however too slow at 3cc.

[Finn]

I really think you are on to something, Bardo. I would certainly consider playing this if I am playing Tombstalkers or Noughts myself.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Isn't it made irrelevant by, say, Mongoose, Mishra's Factory, or Goblin Matron, among other things?

[Captain Hammer]

You left out the most popular black removal spell...

Snuff Out. It's a four of in any aggressive black deck that doesn't play Dark Confidant IMO. And it kills Lackey too.

But otherwise great list.

Wretched Banquet has already replaced Innocent Blood in some of the Pox lists that play 4 Tombstalker. Since Banquet is still playable under a Tombstalker where as Blood isn't. And since Pox already plays 8 maindeck answers to Mongoose in Pox and Smallpox. It could work in any deck that onlys plays big creatures.

I don't see it being better than the alternatives outside of Pox or decks that only play very big dudes though. It has poor synergy if your deck is playing something low powered like say Dark Confidant or Hypnotic Specter.

You bring up that it's good against Lackey. But is horrible against Mongoose. And currently atleast, Mongoose seems to be more prevalent than Lackey. So playing a card that is horrible against the more prevalent decks because it's good against the less prevalent decks seems like a bad trade off.

Smother and Edict are both very good, and work well together, so I see the split of these two being the most generally useful.

Ghastly Demise WAS good, before Tombstalker. Nowadays, any deck that fills the yard fast enough to abuse Ghastly Demise, would usually be better off playing Tombstalker as one of it's threats, and replacing Demise with some other removal spell.

Generally speaking though, if I was playing an aggressive deck without Dark Confidants, I would play Snuff Out. If I was playing a deck with Dark Confidants, I would usually play a Smother/Edict split.

[f|i[p]]

Devour in shadow? anyone?

[georgjorge]

Isn't it made irrelevant by, say, Mongoose, Mishra's Factory, or Goblin Matron, among other things?

Comparing it to Edict, only the Mongoose is really relevant (Factory is mildly relevant). Banquet is dead if they have Mongoose and no Confidant or Meddling Mage or whatever is smaller out. But if there's no Mongoose, Banquet is an Edict for one mana less with less options for your opponent (sometimes none). In my limited testing, that's relevant many times.

Thresh is a widely played deck, but it's still the only one playing Mongeese. Not saying facing Mongeese with this card don't suck, but I think it's not enough to dismiss it right away. The sideboard loves this card, and my UGb Thresh plays 3 of them there right now - even though I play Mongeese myself, because in matchups where they go in (Goblins, Team America, Aggro Loam) either the Mongeese go out, or their creatures are smaller anyway. If you don't play Mongeese you can side them in against so much more.