[Core Set] Changes with 11th Edition ("Magic 2010")

[Aggro_zombies]

First, link: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/27a

The set symbol is awful.

Changing the name isn't really exciting for me one way or the other, although I could see how some little kids/retards would benefit from it.

New cards is ZOMG WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. The three they previewed today are mediocre in terms of power but awesome in terms of fantasy flavor.

Lorwyn Planeswalkers confirmed for the set. Predictable, and not that exciting.

New dual lands could be interesting depending on how they do them. "Powerful" would imply that they don't come into play tapped (or have an option not to), since CiPT has traditionally been the biggest way to nerf a land's power level. However, making them simply come into play untapped, while adding two colors, still seems vastly better than basic lands even without the land type. My guess is that they're doing something like the filter lands from Shadowmoor, although I'm hoping they have basic land types and/or that all ten color combinations are represented. I need more enemy color lands for EDH.

EDIT: Also, fuck yes you are the best templating change ever -


Your opponents can't cast spells this turn.

[Jak]

Ugly symbol.

I like the Lorwyn Planeswalkers are coming back.

I like Rav Duals coming back (I think that's what will happen).

[Aggro_zombies]

I like Rav Duals coming back (I think that's what will happen).
He explicitly said it wasn't.

EDIT:

There has been some speculation as to which set of existing dual lands will be in the next core set, and the answer may surprise: none of them. We wanted to make a cycle of powerful dual lands that risk-averse newer players would like, which meant coming up with something that didn't involve losing life. Sorry, painlands, fetchlands, and Ravnica duals. Trust me, the new ones are awesome!

[Pinder]

Pros: New cards, black border.
Cons: Awful set symbol, mediocre naming convention

Also, are we really switching to "cast" instead of "play"? Does that really matter? I don't think it does, but for what it's worth, I prefer "play".

edit - Although I can see why having a distinction between playing a spell and having a permanent in play could be good. Ambiguity (http://magiccards.info/uh/en/24.html) much?

edit2 - And seriously, that set symbol is the size of a fucking whale.

edit3 - I wonder what terminology they're going to use for lands. "Cast" works just fine for everything in the game that's not a land, because everything is a spell at some point. But "casting" lands just sounds retarded.

edit4 - Abilities, too. "Activated abilities of the named card can't be cast (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/338.html)" sounds pretty clunky. "Play" works for a lot more stuff, it seems.

[dahcmai]

I do kind of like how they will introduce simpler, but new cards to the core set. It always has been a matter of looking through my box to find the original of the card to have it already for standard. Gives me a reason to give a crap about 11th.

No Ravnica duals, no painlands, and no fetches, hmmmm....

Well, I guess since they mentioned there's no pain involved that leaves CIPT though they probably wouldn't call that powerful.

Maybe similar to that land that was just printed? Pay 1 when it comes in to make it produce more than one color? Seems crappy.

Discard a card? Still seems bad.

Close to River of Tears and is conditional? Maybe, but confusing to newer players.

I'm kind of leaning toward Nimbus Maze for them. Though I still couldn't call that awesome. That thing sucked.

Functionally identical Dual lands? Scary thought. Maybe even take away the counts as this land part? It would help balance them out, but still be quite amazing. I guess that's not too far fetched.


I do love the Efreet though, totally flavorful.



I totally see random people mixing up this and tenth edition. "But it has a 10 on it, it's tenth dude!".

[Nihil Credo]

Thoughts:

1) I'd have to look it up to be sure, but when Shards was printed at a smaller size, didn't they say that it was intentionally meant to reduce the total number of cards printed a year so players and R&D could keep up? How does that reconcile with adding ~100 new cards every year?

Yeah, yeah, you get to sell more boosters that way, of course. But this was blatantly planned as a whole package, so if MaRo did indeed suggest reduced total card output as a reason for the Shards change, we can safely throw whatever credibility the WotC spokespeople had left down the well.

2) I understand perfectly why the sets have to be named after the year after they're released (you don't want customers to walk in and say "Let's get a Magic booster. Oh wait, it's still last year's, I guess I'll wait until the fresh one is out"). It still annoys me, though.

3) How absolutely delightful will it be to buy boosters (let alone boxes) where over half of the cards are stuff you already have. And I hope nobody needs to hunt down an M10 mythic the same week the set comes out. Should this new plan turn out a failure, I think this will be the major reason.

4) I completely agree with everything Forsythe said about flavour in the article. And if the new cards are all as well-designed as the three they previewed, they've done an excellent job.

5) On those same lines, yay "cast spells", I'm all for it. Regarding abilities, "play" sounds better, but using "cast" would be less restrictive w.r.t. templating since you could put it in the same sentence (e.g. Split Second reminder text).

6) New dual lands: Probably going to suck. I actually hope for it, in fact, since 5C Standard is a total snooze-fest. I hope they don't want to use them as a crutch to sell M10 boosters again.

7) Yeah, the expansion logo is ugly. To be fair, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with something better (one number on each side? Vertically stacked numbers?).

8) New Black Knight is awful, I would have preferred something more like Hand of Cruelty. On the plus side, Capricious Efreet and Wall of Frost are excellent.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Thoughts:
7) Yeah, the expansion logo is ugly. To be fair, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with something better (one number on each side? Vertically stacked numbers?).
But will make Yawg07's alterations go up in value to cover up that monstrosity. Actually, it will make everyone's alterations go up in value. Hell, I'm going to have to start painting on more cards to get ready to cover that blowhole on the card up.

I really like the new cards as well. Not only do they add flavor, but for once in a long fucking while they're mostly sticking to the color wheel. I'm really tired of seeing shit like Krosan Grip (green was never the color to destroy artifacts/enchantments) or even the gay Lapse of Certainty (white counterspells...).

I really hope that they stick to the wheel. It adds a lot more flavor to decks when specific colors do what they are supposed to.

[DeathwingZERO]

I personally liked the design of the new Black Knight. But that's also because I thought the original Black/White looked terrible. Hoping they end up putting new artwork on a number of spells.

I don't really have a problem with the logo, core set logos have been retarded forever. I am however a huge fan of them starting to put more emphasis in the core sets being the focal point of getting players in. They've been lacking greatly in the past years, being so simplistic that nobody really cared what happened when they came out. Adding in new cards makes them even more important to keep tabs on now.

And they probably won't have CiPT for the new duals. They already did that in Invasion block, as uncommons. I only recall the allied colors, but the fact stands the concept has already been done, and they really weren't better than painlands in most builds.

[Ectoplasm]

I kinda like the idea of having 'generic' fantasy cards, because to be honest, the feeling the cards had around 4th edition/ice age (when I began playing, obviously) has been long gone in a storm of manga-style kithkins, Japanese mythology and little, 'micro-universe' storylines devised to sell magic novels and appeal to the average WoW-loving animefreak.

Not that there's anything wrong with wowloving animefreaks but I'm trying to make a point here ok?

Edit: And I *need* that efreet!

[Sek'Kuar]

I'm not gonna be that asshole that cries "Doom!" for Magic, but I truly am worried about how long new ideas can be churned out. I also would like to know how they plan on doing more 4 set blocks like Lorwyn/Shadowmoor now that they have firmly shut the door on that. It also leaves no room for the stand-alone blocks or the 3rd Un-Set. :cry: I loved the Un-Sets...

[Skeggi]

I hope nobody needs to hunt down an M10 mythic the same week the set comes out.
You know this will happen.

[RoddyVR]

I love the fact that i will be able to have 8 Orim's chants now (screw the kicker, never use that anyway). Its a big thumb+2 up to combo. Lets see you cast that Ad Nausium now... mwahaha.

[Arsenal]

I have to echo everyone else re: the ugly set symbol. I was really expecting a nice, slightly italized "11th" neatly printed, not some strange, huge box looking thing with "M10". M10? Really?

I'm looking forward to seeing what lands they have in store; I definitely thought the shocklands were coming back.

[Dark_Shakuras]

The symbol is M10, would that not confuse the hell out of new players, what the difference between 10th Edition and Magic 2010 is?

Timmy: "I can use all 2010 cards right? So here is this card that says 10, I can use this..."

[Arsenal]

Tenth Edition = X, so I don't think there should be any confusion, even with new players, but still... M10? That's the best they could do? And the huge box around M10 is ugly. Ugh.

[sunshine]

As ugly as the new symbol might be, and it really isn't that bad, this new convention for naming core sets is a pretty subtle but strong way to not intimidate new players - as mentioned in the article. On the whole I have to give a big thumbs up to what they're doing with 11th or M10 or whatever you want to call it - especially from an art and flavor perspective.

[b4r0n]

I'm also not a huge fan of the naming convention or the set symbol, but I understand why they're doing it. I suppose we'll just get used to it, like all of the other changes over the years. Having some flavor in the core sets is much appreciated though, and I also like how this opens up design space - both in core sets and expansions.

[sunshine]

I also like how this opens up design space - both in core sets and expansions.

That's actually worth noting. If they're willing to print new cards in core sets then they wont need to stick cards into expansions just for the sake of reprinting them. Although I didn't see any indication that the whole designing new cards for core sets will be a regular thing, especially not if they're trying to keep the number of new cards printed each year low.

[Pinder]

That also brings up an interesting idea: I suppose now we'll occasionally see cards from core sets reprinted in block sets?

[rockout]

Dang, I seem to be the only person who likes the new symbol. I'd rather not ever see another 8th or 9th edition symbol if I can avoid. 10th had a nice symbol.

New Duals: mmm

I like the new black knight picture. A new chant will be annoying but might be a cheaper replacement foil for the price of a foil orim's chant.

Serra Angel is an uncommon. Drafting should be fun with double possibly triple angels.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like the approach to flavor, and the fact that they want to break Mighty Quinn right the fuck in half. The symbol sucks, but I don't really care too much.

They've been bleeding flavor for a while, it's good that they realized it. Ravnica, for instance, I was really excited about because the designs had this whole renaissance-level fantasy in a big city feel I really liked, but then the cards just felt like a mish mash of all the same old crap. I didn't really feel the setting at all.

[AngryTroll]

Pros:
I like the return to flavor. I started playing back in Ice Age, and I think the flavor was a lot stronger back then then it is now.

Black border

More new two color lands? Could be good for Highlander, at least. But there's already the old duals, fetches, Ravnica Duals, Apocolypse block Painlands, the new Hybrid filter lands, and the old 1T: add UR to your mana pool lands. That's 5 two color lands of each color, and 6 of a few of them. They are going to need to be pretty good to see play.

New cards: I'm undecided. Couldn't they dig up old cards that are flavorful? On the other hand, the ones previewed look solid.


Didn't they just change over to 2+2 sets, away from 3+core or 3+random? Weird.

[Seriously]

Trust me, you'll get used to it.

eat shit dude. Im still pissed about gray, instead of brown, artifacts. still pissed about the new borders. and Im still not even that excited about the introduction of the stack, I kind of liked interrupts.

magic's 11th edition, released in 09, but called m10 ?



fail.



I'm really tired of seeing shit like Krosan Grip (green was never the color to destroy artifacts/enchantments).

seriously ?

*cough* crumble, antiquities. *cough*

um...

*cough* tranquility, alpha. *cough*

I dont really know what to tell you.

[ParkerLewis]

eat shit dude. Im still pissed about gray, instead of brown, artifacts. still pissed about the new borders. and Im still not even that excited about the introduction of the stack, I kind of liked interrupts.

magic's 11th edition, released in 09, but called m10 ?

fail.


Don't be that guy. Why would they sport an "11" on a product they don't want to call 11 ?

Alternatively, stop playing current magic and return drafting 5th edition with the old rules and the three other guys on earth that also think the stack sucks and are still grumbling about it.

I totally support what they're trying to do with the core set, the cards seem actually interesting, I don't dislike the logo (in fact, I like it, totally fits what they're trying to do with it, plus will give it a clean identity), the art seems nice (something that has never been as awesome as in the past few years)... it's a full thumbs up on my part.

[RoddyVR]

eat shit dude. Im still pissed about gray, instead of brown, artifacts. still pissed about the new borders. and Im still not even that excited about the introduction of the stack, I kind of liked interrupts. That's cool.

magic's 11th edition, released in 09, but called m10 ? If i didnt hate sigs, i'd put that in mine.

[Lifeless]

1. Fuck the naming convention of having tenth and then M10. Reminds me of trying to convince someone back in the day that 3rd edition was the 4th printing because of A/B/U. Unneeded and confusing to new players.

2. New good rare duals? Worst idea ever.

3. Let's try not to contradict our logic of printing less cards as a customer value by printing a bunch of new cards.

4. Blatant money grubbing is blatant. Every change they're making is either a "flavor" change to focus on the target market or a desperate attempt to get people to buy more of the core set. I understand they are a business and trying to succeed in difficult times in a struggling industry but occasionally I'd like to think they don't see their players as massive sacks with dollar signs on them. Want long term value for your dollar? Buy a black lotus.

[Frenger]

The only thing I don't like about this is the inclusion of the Lorwyn planeswalkers. With the new marketing strategy centered around those five, and how they're the new face of the game and whatever, it seems like they were put in the set just to be able to continue the marketing and not because they should actually be in the set.

I love the flavor part, and the reprinting of Black Knight and whatever other classic cards will undoubtedly be reprinted. Magic's flavor died with the old card frames (no joke, Coldsnap was the only block that had alright flavor) so maybe this will be a return to the good ole days.

[bowvamp]

My god, I love this new set!
A card called silence.
New dual lands that I'm guessing will end up like this:
(Forest Mountain)
Land Type-Forest Mountain
Text:
Comes into play tapped
T:Add R or G to your mana pool.
Sac ~: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Jus' guessing...
And the basic lands in this set will have the weirdest set name ever which makes them instantly collectible regardless of the art.

[cdr]

The new multilands will have to be "attactive to risk-averse newer players" and simple. Pain is right out, and likely also coming into play tapped.

Something like allied-color duals minus land types would be more likely, but who knows. A cycle of Grove of the Burnwillows or Nimbus Maze is also possible.

[heroicraptor]

[SNIP] Warned for Flaming. - Nihil Credo


Didn't they just change over to 2+2 sets, away from 3+core or 3+random? Weird.
No, that was a one-off thing for Lorwyn-Shadowmoor.

[Tilde]

2. New good rare duals? Worst idea ever.

They never said anything about rarity.

[puppektion]

Here's what I'm seeing that i'm liking:

New cards in a core set: I'd rather see them print cards that are vanilla from a flavor standpoint than reprint old cards that have flavor that died years ago. Examples: Benalish Knight, Counsel of the Soratami, Dross Crocodile, Furnace of Rath, and Viridian Shaman. Newer players wouldn't get the original flavor behind most, if any of these cards. Some things, especially those that tie back to specific blocks should not see the light of day again. Hopefully cards that are flavored beyond any specific plane will come into light here.

Keeping up with the new card types: Has anybody else noticed that after the Lorwyn/Shadowmoore block, they haven't printed Tribals? Dragon Fodder? Maybe a Tribal Sorcery - Goblin/Dragon. Crucible of Fire? They have cards that blatantly should have been made tribals, but weren't. What's the point of introducing a card type if they're not going to use it? A single card type can't (or rather, shouldn't) be a "Block Exclusive." But if nothing else, I'm glad that they're keeping up with the Planeswalkers.

The benefits: New toys for us to play with... Duh. But on top of that, assuming that there'll be any of the playables like 10th Ed had, on top of the new cards... it's all incentive for us (the eternal players) to invest in the new sets, rather than singles, but it's also encouraging new players (block and standard players) to get into the eternal formats. Kinda both a good thing for wizards and for us... while also encouraging more interest for the DCI in promoting the eternal formats... Maybe in a couple years, we won't have *1 Legacy GP* in the US...

Those are just a couple thoughts... I'm sure not everything i said stayed coherent... feel free to bash my ideas to bits, but i would like some halfway decent *constructive* criticism along with the bashing :P

[Lifeless]

They never said anything about rarity.

Correct. I am assuming based on the fact that they're doing all of this to improve sales, and that every playable dual is rare. They could also directly contradict previous statements and make them mythic. It would not surprise me.

Also, I would like them to be simple nonbasics without a subtype, or with a new specific subtype they can play off of. Maybe that is too good to print but not interacting with fetches and other search limits them.

[puppektion]

Correct. I am assuming based on the fact that they're doing all of this to improve sales, and that every playable dual is rare. They could also directly contradict previous statements and make them mythic. It would not surprise me.


It doesn't seem logical that Wizards would put dual-lands at Mythic. If they were legendary dual lands, then maybe...:wink:

[Citrus-God]

I think those duals are 3 colored CIPT lands.

[Michael Keller]

I can appreciate them trying new things to entice older and newer players to the game, but this is just snapping tradition in half. I am completely referring to core sets, mind you. The more and more I look back on this game, the more and more things begin to unravel that, unlike years' past, the cards themselves seemingly have lost "Magic" flavor. Everything has become cartoonish and tame and it just isn't the same. While the mechanics have essentially remained untouched, it doesn't change the fact that an effort like this was choreographed by a group of individuals trying to cash in on a novelty situation, nothing more. They know players have open minds and would let this pass, but this is a crossroads, folks. Forget the altering they've done on card art; Magic as we knew it in a visceral sense is officially over.

Call me crazy but I know marketing is a risky business. But the majority of people will see this as a passing phase, nothing more. Magic is taking a turn for the worse and I'm seeing it unravel before my eyes each passing day. It's the definitive CCG. And tampering with something so traditional makes me wonder if the game will ever be the same. It's like a professional sports league - you need to readjust the divisions to make room for the expansion teams. And what they're doing is expanding on traditional ideas by completely changing the grit and mysterious values that went into older expansions. Ultimately, they were the ones that laid the groundwork for these sets to even exist, so why not try something more realistic?

A good example of this were the original sets like The Dark. While that set may have been playability-wise inferior to its counterparts, the flavor of the set was felt every time you looked at it:

http://findmagiccards.com/GF/USC/MTGC/DK/THEALEN1.jpeg
http://findmagiccards.com/GF/USC/MTGC/DK/MURWERS1.jpeg

The distorted coloration and realistically dark undertones are far cooler than some of the newer shit out there. This wasn't just true for this set:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Antiquities/Argivian%20Archaeologist.jpg

Art is in itself objective and you can take it any way you like. But it has a major impact on the way Magic is designed today. This is no truer than with sixteen years of rich tradition in a game so many love to play. Core sets are the very foundation on which Magic became so wildly popular. Some of you might not care because honestly, it is quite trivial. But to some people who have played the game competitively and casually since its inception, it's hard to fathom that the system which we grew up on and so comfortably with - is now over.

Rest assured: They will not "recapture" the Magic in Magic. And they won't...ever.

[Skeggi]

Magic as we knew it in a visceral sense is officially over.
I blame Mirage. It's the first set where the colors were boosted, and the Power/Toughness numbers were printed thick. I remember seeing it first, it was like having a heart-attack.

[Ectoplasm]

I blame Mirage. It's the first set where the colors were boosted, and the Power/Toughness numbers were printed thick. I remember seeing it first, it was like having a heart-attack.

But still, the trip from generic fantasy to something more themebased (African things) was kind of cool.
I blame weatherlight myself.

[Skeggi]

But still, the trip from generic fantasy to something more themebased (African things) was kind of cool.
I blame weatherlight myself.

They always had themes. Arabian Nights had 1001 Arabian Nights as a theme, Antiquities had a generic artifact theme, Legends had a theme with...well...legends...and multicoloreds...The Dark had a theme...eerh...about dark and gloomy stuff. Fallen Empires was about Sarpadian Empires, Homelands was about..eerh...bad cards? Ice Age...eerh, what was Ice Age about again? And there's Alliances, which was about, eerh, how in an Icy environment, when you play a card, you also help your opponent...I guess. See? Lots of themes :wink: But I guess Mirage had the African theme mostly because MaRo had gotten the shivers from Ice Age and wanted something warmer.

[Ectoplasm]

They always had themes. Arabian Nights had 1001 Arabian Nights as a theme, Antiquities had a generic artifact theme, Legends had a theme with...well...legends...and multicoloreds...The Dark had a theme...eerh...about dark and gloomy stuff. Fallen Empires was about Sarpadian Empires, Homelands was about..eerh...bad cards? Ice Age...eerh, what was Ice Age about again? And there's Alliances, which was about, eerh, how in an Icy environment, when you play a card, you also help your opponent...I guess. See? Lots of themes :wink: But I guess Mirage had the African theme mostly because MaRo had gotten the shivers from Ice Age and wanted something warmer.

Well, yeah, but Mirage didn't introduce long overarching storylines like Weatherlight did.
I don't know. Take Homelands for example. Every piece of flavourtext is a quote of some recurring character and all of them are available as cards as well in the same set, Autumn Willow, Isahn, Baron Sengir etc. That was pretty cool since it gave the set its own identity.
Now flash forward to weatherlight and the sets that followed, all the way up to the end of Urza block. Suddenly, there's this entire storyline about legacy weapons, Urza who built Karn and they all work together to kill evildoers like Volrath and Yawgmoth and what have you, suddenly there's a bunch of novels, the game suddenly feels as if you're playing some kind of soap opera.

I don't know, but I never really cared about all those characters and their perils and to me it kind of detracted from the feel of the game. I'm not really a fantasy-buff (I mean, I read books and sometimes it's fantasy, I play videogames so I've played the occasional RPG etc so I know a goblin is green and elves like trees) so for me, a Fireball dealing damage in an 'area of effect' by exploding on different creatures, or a hurricane blowing all kinds of stuff out of the air is enough. I don't really care about Gerrard's relationship with Sisay and who died in which episode of the manga webcomics.
When I see a card like Gwafa Hazid I can imagine he's 'bribing' people to do something else and it's cool, but I dont care if Nicol Bolas hired him to do his bidding and cause chaos on Bant.

To me, the whole thing went over the top around Weatherlight, where something like a theme turned into a whole bunch of mythology that just doesn't interest me.

Pfff.

So what I'm trying to say is, bring back stuff like demonic hordes, lightning bolt and hurricane and get rid of the underground, fanfiction stuff, so yes, I like where M10 is going, stylewise.

[Skeggi]

You are very right. I totally agree.

Except that the Weatherlight story began in Mirage:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/247.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/97.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/57.jpg

Which isn't odd, considering Weatherlight is Mirage block.

[Ectoplasm]

Oh well, I guess you're right, even though Mirage and Visions seem to be their own seperate block.

But I guess most people get what I mean anyway :)

[rockout]

I found this on the magic website:

Magic: The Gathering 2010 Core Set

Prerelease date: July 11-12, 2009
Release date: July 17, 2009
Set size: 249 cards
(101 C, 60 U, 53 R, 15 M, 20 L)
Product lineup: Five intro packs, 15-card booster pack, 6-card booster pack, fat pack

Any ideas on what a 6 card booster pack will be? Possibly a higher chance to crack a mythic, maybe, and be the same price as a normal booster?

[RoddyVR]

I thought the 6 card packs were the $2 ones without a guaranteed rare slot that they made for walmart and such.

[Ectoplasm]

I found this on the magic website:

Magic: The Gathering 2010 Core Set

Prerelease date: July 11-12, 2009
Release date: July 17, 2009
Set size: 249 cards
(101 C, 60 U, 53 R, 15 M, 20 L)
Product lineup: Five intro packs, 15-card booster pack, 6-card booster pack, fat pack

Any ideas on what a 6 card booster pack will be? Possibly a higher chance to crack a mythic, maybe, and be the same price as a normal booster?

It's already been explained on their page (sometime, I can't seem to find a link though). It will cost half the price of a normal booster and it will contain 3 commons, 2 uncommons and 1 random card which has an equal chance of being common, uncommon or rare, and has the same rare-to-mythic ratio as normal rares, which means your chances of opening a mythic will be about 24 to 1.
They'll be sold in big American shops like Walmart or Target, for the impulsive buyers, and they're already available for conflux.

[Arsenal]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/119

6 card boosters (starting with Conflux). Not worth it if you look at the breakdown.

[Aggro_zombies]

Rest assured: They will not "recapture" the Magic in Magic. And they won't...ever.
I blame Magic getting popular for this. Everyone knows that anytime something becomes popular, new people flood in and make it totally watered down and retarded.

For example, had I not started playing with Mirage, Wizards would not have made as much money from that set, and they would have viewed the thicker power-toughness numbers (introduced so that idiots could have an easier time reading them, allowing players to expend less effort per combat), the more cohesive block model, and the introduction of a multi-block story (obviously a blatant attempt by Wizards to retain new players over several blocks, thereby milking more money out of them) as commercial failures and discontinued them.

If Magic still had the small audience it had when Alpha was first released, Wizards could print whatever they wanted without feeling any commercial pressure to please the base. It's because of all these newfangled "noobs" that Wizards feels obligated to sell cards to that they've dumbed down the flavor and the game.

I mean, the stack? Seriously? Are interrupts too complicated for these new-blood retards? Only being able to respond to things with counterspells and mana effects made the game way more strategic and interesting.

I'm afraid that Magic, already long dead, is dying even harder.

[dahcmai]

You have to admit some of the old rules had conflicts that just plain couldn't be resolved with the rules and you had to "wing it" through a few situations. I played with those "revised" rules back then and I prefer it now. Though the layering table is confusing and I did prefer interrupts. I didn't mind the interrupt bubbles too much.

6th edition rules improved the game quite a bit in my opinion. If you tell me you actually liked how it was technically done with prevention, you are one weird person. That was screwy as hell doing it all at the end like that.

How about the ultra confusing "in between" turns thing that allowed Wall of Roots to go broken? That sucked. Going below Zero was ok for the most part though I did hate that Fastbond/ Storm Cauldron combo.


6 cards packs? Ok, bad idea. They would be worth it if they had a rare for sure, but then the other ones wouldn't be feasible. Personally I think they need to put starters or pre-cons up in Wal Marts, if anything needs to go there. What good is 6 cards to anyone trying to pick up a game as complex as this one?


As for the game dying, you know more people play it now than ever before? Seems like it's not. Not even close.

[Ectoplasm]

The guy is just making fun of everyone, stop taking everything so serious.

[Mordel]

As someone who started flopping loser cards when he was seven and whose childhood basically revolves around the evolution of a casual player/stupid babbling child into a snooty competitive babbling asshole, it is quite sad to see how mtg is changing. They lost access to my bank account around timespiral.
I suppose the game had lost its luster to me before that, but I was caught up in the pursuit of being a pro, so I didn't really care too much.

A while back though, I saw two dorks at my college playing against eachother with two revised starter that had been switched around etc and it reminded me of what the game used to be like. These guys were playing complete with interrupt rulesarguing about interrupt timing and everything. I miss the way it was. As the years go by, I find myself less and less interested in a game that basically consumed like ten years of my life and was present at just about every stage of my childhood from my first big tournament thing where my mom wasn't around to my first joint around the corner from Mishra's Game Factory that effectively spelled the death of part of my childhood.

[Seriously]

Don't be that guy. Why would they sport an "11" on a product they don't want to call 11 ?

so, let me get this straight. you're saying that the best option in the known universe for a company with an 11th edition of a product that they dont want to call 11 is to instead call 10 ? really ? great imagination, real creative. I love your flair for mediocrity.


Alternatively, stop playing current magic and return drafting 5th edition with the old rules and the three other guys on earth that also think the stack sucks and are still grumbling about it.

LIFO, last in, first out ? fast effects ? no ?


I don't dislike the logo (in fact, I like it, totally fits what they're trying to do with it, plus will give it a clean identity).

well they sort of already have a clean indentity, they're wotc, they make magic cards. everyone knows that, its just too bad they wont stop trying to do other shit that fails and concentrate more on magic. 'other card games have more rarities, so we're adding a new one' and 'well games like madden use this numbering system so we will too', thats stealing things from other games. how will emulating something else give them a clean indentity ? they are the leaders in their field, its other people who should be stealing things from magic, not vice versa.



I think those duals are 3 colored CIPT lands.

wouldnt that make them triples, instead of duals at that point ?



A good example of this were the original sets like The Dark. While that set may have been playability-wise inferior to its counterparts, the flavor of the set was felt every time you looked at it:
Rest assured: They will not "recapture" the Magic in Magic. And they won't...ever.

no, they probably wont ever recapture it and thats sad. I enjoyed the game so much more back then, now I just play it due to a lack of anything better or as comparable. sure there are other fantasy games, but they tend to fail. Im not hugely into anime enough to play any of the anime based games. and even though I like aspects of l5r, I dont like it at the same time.

I thought The Dark was great, one of my favorite sets. there was no spoiler, I had no idea what I was going to get in a pack. I didnt even know the set was out, until I went to a comic shop I didnt normally go to and saw it. I was like 'spooky' magic cards ? thats so cool.



I thought the 6 card packs were the $2 ones without a guaranteed rare slot that they made for walmart and such.

thats too bad, I thought they were finally going back to making the old school packs again.




I mean, the stack? Seriously? Are interrupts too complicated for these new-blood retards? Only being able to respond to things with counterspells and mana effects made the game way more strategic and interesting.

<3



WAHHHHHHHHHH. Magic is dying. QFT. Seriously. Stop playing the game if you think its dead. Less people, less money for wizards, better for the rest who still enjoy the game.

WAHHHHHHHHHH. mcdonalds is dying. QFT. seriously. quit eating the horse lip/soy bean foam patties if you dont like the fact that they dont use real beef. better for the people who like substandard genetically engineered subsitutes.



A while back though, I saw two dorks at my college playing against eachother with two revised starter that had been switched around etc and it reminded me of what the game used to be like. These guys were playing complete with interrupt rulesarguing about interrupt timing and everything. I miss the way it was.

yeah, I'd love to open up some revised starters and go at it like that, I just couldnt afford to it on any regular basis. I'd think that was great, it would be good times. it be nice if they reprinted the collectors edition again.


:eek:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can appreciate them trying new things to entice older and newer players to the game, but this is just snapping tradition in half. I am completely referring to core sets, mind you. The more and more I look back on this game, the more and more things begin to unravel that, unlike years' past, the cards themselves seemingly have lost "Magic" flavor. Everything has become cartoonish and tame and it just isn't the same. While the mechanics have essentially remained untouched, it doesn't change the fact that an effort like this was choreographed by a group of individuals trying to cash in on a novelty situation, nothing more. They know players have open minds and would let this pass, but this is a crossroads, folks. Forget the altering they've done on card art; Magic as we knew it in a visceral sense is officially over.

Call me crazy but I know marketing is a risky business. But the majority of people will see this as a passing phase, nothing more. Magic is taking a turn for the worse and I'm seeing it unravel before my eyes each passing day. It's the definitive CCG. And tampering with something so traditional makes me wonder if the game will ever be the same. It's like a professional sports league - you need to readjust the divisions to make room for the expansion teams. And what they're doing is expanding on traditional ideas by completely changing the grit and mysterious values that went into older expansions. Ultimately, they were the ones that laid the groundwork for these sets to even exist, so why not try something more realistic?

A good example of this were the original sets like The Dark. While that set may have been playability-wise inferior to its counterparts, the flavor of the set was felt every time you looked at it:

http://findmagiccards.com/GF/USC/MTGC/DK/THEALEN1.jpeg
http://findmagiccards.com/GF/USC/MTGC/DK/MURWERS1.jpeg

The distorted coloration and realistically dark undertones are far cooler than some of the newer shit out there. This wasn't just true for this set:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Antiquities/Argivian%20Archaeologist.jpg

Art is in itself objective and you can take it any way you like. But it has a major impact on the way Magic is designed today. This is no truer than with sixteen years of rich tradition in a game so many love to play. Core sets are the very foundation on which Magic became so wildly popular. Some of you might not care because honestly, it is quite trivial. But to some people who have played the game competitively and casually since its inception, it's hard to fathom that the system which we grew up on and so comfortably with - is now over.

Rest assured: They will not "recapture" the Magic in Magic. And they won't...ever.

It's about Diablo III, not Magic, but Jay Wilson does a pretty thorough job of explaining why making every picture dark and gritty is fundamentally terrible here;

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/04/diablo-iii-designer-turns-tables/

Core lesson:

Black text on a black screen is edgy, but not exceptionally functional.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Wait, wait, wait, wait...

People actually care about flavor?

I mean the art's nice and all that, but, I've never been concerned with anything other than mechanics. I never bought cards for aesthetic reasons, only mechanical reasons. Actually, it almost disturbs me that people care so much about something so seemingly irrelevant (at least, irrelevant to me). I find it hard to believe that people can actually perceive Magic as dying over something that has absolutely no effect on the gameplay of the game itself.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People actually care about flavor?

Is this rhetorical, or do you have very poor reading comprehension?


Actually, it almost disturbs me that people care so much about something so seemingly irrelevant (at least, irrelevant to me).

I'm really glad you said 'almost', or I would've been really worried here. Crisis averted.


I find it hard to believe that people can actually perceive Magic as dying over something that has absolutely no effect on the gameplay of the game itself.

Whether or not the restaurant I'm dining at smells like a septic tank or has rats crawling on the wall has no impact on my enjoyment of the food.

[Ectoplasm]

Wait, wait, wait, wait...

People actually care about flavor?

I mean the art's nice and all that, but, I've never been concerned with anything other than mechanics. I never bought cards for aesthetic reasons, only mechanical reasons. Actually, it almost disturbs me that people care so much about something so seemingly irrelevant (at least, irrelevant to me). I find it hard to believe that people can actually perceive Magic as dying over something that has absolutely no effect on the gameplay of the game itself.

I enjoy the game, I just don't want to be looking at manga characters while doing so.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I enjoy the game, I just don't want to be looking at manga characters while doing so.

Agreed.



Also... Magic 2010 in 2009? Isn't that MORE confusing than "11th edition"? Now editions will be numbered like cars (a year in advance)? Weird.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Whether or not the restaurant I'm dining at smells like a septic tank or has rats crawling on the wall has no impact on my enjoyment of the food.

Well, damn. I don't really have a way to get out of this one, do I?

I could argue that mixing up how they develop Core Sets is nothing like that scenario, but, I suppose that comes down to personal preference, rendering such an argument pointless.

I mean, honestly, I could have a whole set filled nothing but manga-styled art and frankly not care since I'm much more concerned with the mechanics. The fantasy setting is just a way to package the mechanics in a way so as to attract more players, anyways. But that's just me. I'm sure there are people out there who actually care about the art and flavor text, but, I'm not sure why they gain enjoyment from it to the point that losing it makes the game boring, since it's gameplay that makes or breaks the game. Mechanically, the art and flavor text has no impact.

[Ectoplasm]

I'm not sure why they gain enjoyment from it to the point that losing it makes the game boring

Nobody ever said that, but if I had to choose between watching anime or a real movie I'd go for the real movie because frankly, I hate it when my main characters have heads bigger than their torsoes.

I'm still playing MTG because it's a great game, but any improvement is good, right? It's not like I try to avoid playing with Lorwyn cards because I don't like the flavourtexts on them, I just think the old cards were *cooler*.

That doesn't hold me back from throwing a vindicate on your elspeth because it has Gerrard in the flavourtext.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Flavor and mechanics don't have to tear at each other; at a certain point, they help each other, where flavor opens up new mechanic vistas and makes mechanics understandable, where mechanics help create the feeling of a given spell's effects.

I don't care so much if the art is manga style, or bauhaus, or post surrealism or whatever the fuck. I just want it to be interesting, and to feel like it was designed by people that thought it was interesting and wanted to share this with others, and not by corporate hacks and executive shills who figured that stupid teenagers would love this shit and shoved a "here I rule" mage-punk shitfest onto me.

[cdr]

The Branding department is definitely the #1 problem with Magic at present. They really do seem to have completely lost touch with reality.

[Nightmare]

If Magic decided to do a Manga set, I'd probably stop playing.

[Nihil Credo]

They did get dangerously close to Pokemon with Figure of Destiny.

[dahcmai]

I thought Champion was closer. I'll evolve my Spellstutter into a Mistbind! Go Mistbind Go!

[Ectoplasm]

If Magic decided to do a Manga set, I'd probably stop playing.

I'm actually referring to the kithkins with the 'big headed manga characters' so yeah

Also, the 'here I rule' commercial is just disgraceful and I'm happy they're not airing it here in the Netherlands. They are, however, pushing MTG to new players and that's cool because so far it scored me 2 free trade binders, 6 free 10th edition precons and 6 free 10th boosters :)

[Aggro_zombies]

If Magic decided to do a Manga set, I'd probably stop playing.
Does Kamigawa block count?

[Seriously]

I just think the old cards were *cooler*.


they were.





I just want it to be interesting, and to feel like it was designed by people that thought it was interesting and wanted to share this with others, and not by corporate hacks and executive shills who figured that stupid teenagers would love this shit and shoved a "here I rule" mage-punk shitfest onto me.

welcome to hasbro ? I dont think much is going to change. theres way too much error checking to let much cool fun overpowered shit slip out again. and too much money at stake to be left in the hands of random geeky creative people making card sets out of their basements.

[ParkerLewis]

so, let me get this straight. you're saying that the best option in the known universe for a company with an 11th edition of a product that they dont want to call 11 is to instead call 10 ? really ? great imagination, real creative. I love your flair for mediocrity.

So, let me get this straight. When it says black on white THEY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE CALLED 11th, you're saying they should call it 11 ?

As long as the new name they chose is valid under its naming convention, which in this case both solves the problem and is pretty standard, you can troll all day, it's not going to change anything.

Moreover, who, among people that are already playing the game, even f* actually cares about the name of the core set being "m10" in place of "11" ? If that's the kind of worries you have in your life, so much so that you have to openly bitch about it, I envy you, man.


LIFO, last in, first out ? fast effects ? no ?

Yeah. Right. (http://www.wizards.com/global/images/mtgcom_arcana_130_pic2.jpg) And that's only for interrupts. It was simple because what we all were doing was simple. Point is, at the time the stack didn't change things that much, except it streamlined the whole thing so that it would be more robust and able to accept future kind of actions (madness, ...). Now stop trolling and open your eyes.

I don't think there's anything more to add.