Mordenkaynen
02-23-2009, 07:19 AM
Ok, guys, nowadays I haven't much time to develope ideas, but I'd like to share them.
Intro.
One time I collected some discard outlets to analyse them another time.
Madness was dead long time ago. Decks with tomb-manabase appear today left and right - stompies, stax-like decks, even tribal decks. And I figured that there are 3 interesting discard outlets that are designed right for tomb-manabase: Gathan Riders, Stronghold Rats, Cunning Lethermancer. There are some ways to try to build a deck using this idea.
Brainstorming.
Ok, things about the idea that are set in stone are: tomb-manabase, black color (may be with splash), using of discard-engines and (slight?) abuse of self-discard.
What things can deserve consideration for making aggro with Tomb and madness?
Strength of Lunacy: stompies use equipments; this can make 1-to-2 advantage for opponent (if they play removal in response), but it's much faster and proves self-discard. Semi-SoLaS for B is sort of sweet, I think. Notice also that it can be played without outlet.
Unearth mechanic (Extractor Demon, Sedraxis Specter): fast damage and good discard-fodders, Specter also cause the opponent to discard. See also below.
Reanimate: it's a bit situational, but with unearth creatures and cleaning the opponent's hand, it can accelerate your tempo much.
However, there are not many aggro elements for this, and Grafter Wargear can improve this. It has good synergy with Unearth creatures (6 dmg for 1b - not bad). There's also Oona's Prowler which is agressive creature that has discard-outlet ability; although, the latter conflicts with aggro-plan except if is used after attack.
Let's take a look on possible controlish elements. These cards need to be understood if they would be included or not at first:
Chalice, Trinishpere, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Unmask, Snuff out, Chains of Meph., Nether Void.
Discard-engines have dis-synergy with Chalice since they would discard forbidden cards and it bans ritual and seize, so let it go (it will be mentioned in Directions list). Also leaving Chalice causes me to remember Culling Scales which can be used here. Trinisphere barely slows the opponent and Thoughtseize can do this too while it synergize with discard-engines, negates opponent's staff (in contrast to bare slowing) and is playable 1st turn more often. Thorn of Amethyst serves a similar purpose so let's leave it too (this doesn't mean that it's strictly worse, just it's about another stratagy). Nether Void is another question, it usually is played to "seal the deal" in stompies. It can be used with good amount of threats and/or unearth.
Chains is very interesting. It's usage can be maximized by adding Anvil of Bogardan, using Unmask and Thoughtseize. It may deserve it's own direction.
Snuff Out can deserve a spot, but we have to keep Big Game Hunter and Dark Withering in mind.
So, cards to be included: Dark Ritual;
cards that can be included: Thoughtseize, Unmask, Culling Scales, Big Game Hunter, Dark Withering, Slaughter Pact (play then pay is a good idea with symmetrical discard); Chains of Mephistopheles in a bit focused version; Nether Void in aggressive version;
cards that are left for consistency: Chalice, Trinishpere, Thorn of Amethyst, Snuff out.
Other discard-engines, discard-fodders, finishers:
- Raven's Crime | can be good in dedicated discard direction
- Necrogen Mists | a controlish card, can't be sweeped with usual removal; there's also Bottomless Pit which has an ugly cost for tomb-manabase
- Tortured Existence | can be useful in dedicated aggro with unearth
- Rotting Rats | seems clunky; can be used for dedicated discard, but worse than Specter unless we play Bridge (see below)
- Strongarm Tactics | a weird card. Either attacks their tempo proactively or disrupts them a little and does 4 damage. Seems agressive, but I don't know where it can fit and where it can't
- The Rack | first finisher for dedicated discard; has dis-synergy with Culling Scales, but can be played after it (after it kills itself) or without it
- Cursed Scroll | another damage-source only for controlish direction. Takes care of "unnecessary" creatures
- Infernal Tutor | useful with empty hand, can fetch a finisher
- Filth (+Urborg) | unblockable guys are good, but I'm not sure if you would need it instead of (madness) sweep
- Noetic Scales, Ensnaring Bridge | cards for controlish root - forbid attack; Culling Scales seem better than Noetic ones; Bridge is harder to sneak by using things like Squee
- Haunting Echoes | a finisher for controlish root
- Nyxathid, Tombstalker | good body, BAD cost. I think reanimate is better.
- left one - Zombie Infestation | doesn't do much for aggro and 2/2 bears for chump block without any other use and Bitterblossom would definitely better
Possibilies for splashing:
R:
Storm World, Lavaborn Muse - for dedicated discard direction; Fiery Temper;
cards that are left - Reckless Wurm - the same as arrogant wurm while green allows much more aggro options;
G:
bigger beats (Tarmogoyf, Wild Mongrel, Roar of the Wurm), Arrogant Wurm, artifact/ench. sweep with flashback (can it be better than Grip?);
cards that are left - Survival (needs much mana investement and is bad with the mana base which is anyway hard to make)
W:
vindicate-effects, Suppression Field (danger of cool things), Jotun Grunt, StP (sweep and grave-sweep is good with discard)
What is tomb-manabase?
Here these words mean
4(-) City of Traitors
4(-) Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
9+ Swamp (some Urborgs if you want Filth, TS or Nyxathid)
4(-) Dark Rituals
Possible directions.
Here we have many interesting cards, but they serve different purposes. Deck has to be focused, so let me suggest some possible directions:
1. Maximize aggro. No non-creature controlish engines except may be for Culling Scales since they clear the way from blockers and other shit (but has dys-sinergy with moxen, strength and Prowler). May contain Strongarm Tactics. Skeleton:
? Thoughtseize
? Reanimate
4 Gathan Riders
4 Stronghold Rats
? Cunning Lethermancer
4 Grafted Wargear
4 Stregth of Lunacy
? Oona's Prowler
? Extractor Demon
? Tombstalker
? Culling Scales
? [Other removal]
? Nether Void
Target: make maximum pressure distributed among dealing damage and proactive attacking their plan.
2. Dedicated discard:
2.a without red, controlish. More discard-engines, Infernal Tutor, Ensnaring Bridge, no "equipment", no Chains; no Culling Scales. The latter destroy our finishers; although, like I said, it can be dropped before finishers, you have to attack their hand at the same time which means that you'll most likely discard your finishers. Tutor has to be used at least because it allows to play 1-2 Echoes, which is better than 3-4, when you can draw 2. Additional junk idea is to add Gibbering Descent. There can be also Rotting Rats, if needed. Skeleton:
4 The Rack
? Cursed Scroll
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Cunning Lethermancer
? Stronghold Rats
1(+) Infernal Tutor
1(+) Ensnaring Bridge
2(-) Haunting Echoes
Target: establish board- and hand-positions, kill them with The Rack, Cursed Scroll or Haunting Echoes.
2.b with red splash. The Rack, Storm World, discard-engines, Squee, madness-removal. May contain Lavaborn Muse, Buried Alive (for Squee, unearth creatures), Strongarm Tactics. Unfortunately, Bridge does not possess to this way to go since you have to keep some cards in your hand not to suffer from Strom World. The issue is if it can exist or not because of manabase.
Target: rape their hand, do some removal/blockers (there's also Necroplasm) and win with TR, SW and/or unearth guys.
3. Chains + Anvil combo, with some unearth, fast spot discard, The Rack. Can include tutor, Crucible of Worlds, Dakmor Savage and Necroplasm (Chains + Anvil + dredge = double dredge + return dredged card + draw, if I don't mistake), Strongarm Tactics. I'm not sure what would be plan B (without combo), so also direction 5.
Target: lock them with the combo and win; there must be plan B...
4. Aggro with G splash. Manabase is an issue again. What does green do for the deck? It gives more big guys that are independent from attachments - Roar of the Wurm, Tarmogoyf, Arrogant Wurm. Wild Mongrel is going to be really big only if you would play Squees (it's hard even to imagine that you would have 1-2 cards to discard during, say, 3 turns) and Squees are crappy for a stompy. So there remain: Roar of the Wurm, Tarmogoyf, Arrogant Wurm. Without Chalice, we can also use O-Naginata. Culling Scales doesn't fit this since it cleans your tokens and goyfs hence doesn't do what it's designed to - clearing the way for attack.. I'm not sure if it can be good, so let me just throw a rough list instead of making a skeleton:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Stronghold Rats
4 Cunning Lethemancer
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Strength of Lunacy
2 O-Naginata
4 Thoughtseize
4. Negate-all W version (discard, sweep). This can be viable even less likely than green version. Those good W spells do not connect with discard anyhow (except for Grunt). This needs some testing, though.
5. More focuse on reanimation. Can use Buried Alive, Reanimate, Recuring Nightmare, Strongarm Tactics. Extractor Demon can be an ok reanimation target while can make damage by himself. No equipment, some Culling Scales. I'm not an expert in reanimator's targets, so I don't list them. Since it's more rogue way to win, it can be paired with Chains combo.
6. Trying Chalice and Trini. They look bad at paper, but who knows.
Here we go.
Ok, I've thrown some ideas, many of them are not well-anylised or tested now; if you are interested in developement, you are wellcome.
I think you wouldn't mind if I collect good points in opening post. Also, I haven't distributed all the cards among directions (which ones deserve their spots and which don't), and it has to be made clear. All interesing cards are underlined once in the post, all abondoned ones are written in italics; I'm not sure that listing them would be more readable, but if it seems necessary, I'll make it.
Intro.
One time I collected some discard outlets to analyse them another time.
Madness was dead long time ago. Decks with tomb-manabase appear today left and right - stompies, stax-like decks, even tribal decks. And I figured that there are 3 interesting discard outlets that are designed right for tomb-manabase: Gathan Riders, Stronghold Rats, Cunning Lethermancer. There are some ways to try to build a deck using this idea.
Brainstorming.
Ok, things about the idea that are set in stone are: tomb-manabase, black color (may be with splash), using of discard-engines and (slight?) abuse of self-discard.
What things can deserve consideration for making aggro with Tomb and madness?
Strength of Lunacy: stompies use equipments; this can make 1-to-2 advantage for opponent (if they play removal in response), but it's much faster and proves self-discard. Semi-SoLaS for B is sort of sweet, I think. Notice also that it can be played without outlet.
Unearth mechanic (Extractor Demon, Sedraxis Specter): fast damage and good discard-fodders, Specter also cause the opponent to discard. See also below.
Reanimate: it's a bit situational, but with unearth creatures and cleaning the opponent's hand, it can accelerate your tempo much.
However, there are not many aggro elements for this, and Grafter Wargear can improve this. It has good synergy with Unearth creatures (6 dmg for 1b - not bad). There's also Oona's Prowler which is agressive creature that has discard-outlet ability; although, the latter conflicts with aggro-plan except if is used after attack.
Let's take a look on possible controlish elements. These cards need to be understood if they would be included or not at first:
Chalice, Trinishpere, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Unmask, Snuff out, Chains of Meph., Nether Void.
Discard-engines have dis-synergy with Chalice since they would discard forbidden cards and it bans ritual and seize, so let it go (it will be mentioned in Directions list). Also leaving Chalice causes me to remember Culling Scales which can be used here. Trinisphere barely slows the opponent and Thoughtseize can do this too while it synergize with discard-engines, negates opponent's staff (in contrast to bare slowing) and is playable 1st turn more often. Thorn of Amethyst serves a similar purpose so let's leave it too (this doesn't mean that it's strictly worse, just it's about another stratagy). Nether Void is another question, it usually is played to "seal the deal" in stompies. It can be used with good amount of threats and/or unearth.
Chains is very interesting. It's usage can be maximized by adding Anvil of Bogardan, using Unmask and Thoughtseize. It may deserve it's own direction.
Snuff Out can deserve a spot, but we have to keep Big Game Hunter and Dark Withering in mind.
So, cards to be included: Dark Ritual;
cards that can be included: Thoughtseize, Unmask, Culling Scales, Big Game Hunter, Dark Withering, Slaughter Pact (play then pay is a good idea with symmetrical discard); Chains of Mephistopheles in a bit focused version; Nether Void in aggressive version;
cards that are left for consistency: Chalice, Trinishpere, Thorn of Amethyst, Snuff out.
Other discard-engines, discard-fodders, finishers:
- Raven's Crime | can be good in dedicated discard direction
- Necrogen Mists | a controlish card, can't be sweeped with usual removal; there's also Bottomless Pit which has an ugly cost for tomb-manabase
- Tortured Existence | can be useful in dedicated aggro with unearth
- Rotting Rats | seems clunky; can be used for dedicated discard, but worse than Specter unless we play Bridge (see below)
- Strongarm Tactics | a weird card. Either attacks their tempo proactively or disrupts them a little and does 4 damage. Seems agressive, but I don't know where it can fit and where it can't
- The Rack | first finisher for dedicated discard; has dis-synergy with Culling Scales, but can be played after it (after it kills itself) or without it
- Cursed Scroll | another damage-source only for controlish direction. Takes care of "unnecessary" creatures
- Infernal Tutor | useful with empty hand, can fetch a finisher
- Filth (+Urborg) | unblockable guys are good, but I'm not sure if you would need it instead of (madness) sweep
- Noetic Scales, Ensnaring Bridge | cards for controlish root - forbid attack; Culling Scales seem better than Noetic ones; Bridge is harder to sneak by using things like Squee
- Haunting Echoes | a finisher for controlish root
- Nyxathid, Tombstalker | good body, BAD cost. I think reanimate is better.
- left one - Zombie Infestation | doesn't do much for aggro and 2/2 bears for chump block without any other use and Bitterblossom would definitely better
Possibilies for splashing:
R:
Storm World, Lavaborn Muse - for dedicated discard direction; Fiery Temper;
cards that are left - Reckless Wurm - the same as arrogant wurm while green allows much more aggro options;
G:
bigger beats (Tarmogoyf, Wild Mongrel, Roar of the Wurm), Arrogant Wurm, artifact/ench. sweep with flashback (can it be better than Grip?);
cards that are left - Survival (needs much mana investement and is bad with the mana base which is anyway hard to make)
W:
vindicate-effects, Suppression Field (danger of cool things), Jotun Grunt, StP (sweep and grave-sweep is good with discard)
What is tomb-manabase?
Here these words mean
4(-) City of Traitors
4(-) Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
9+ Swamp (some Urborgs if you want Filth, TS or Nyxathid)
4(-) Dark Rituals
Possible directions.
Here we have many interesting cards, but they serve different purposes. Deck has to be focused, so let me suggest some possible directions:
1. Maximize aggro. No non-creature controlish engines except may be for Culling Scales since they clear the way from blockers and other shit (but has dys-sinergy with moxen, strength and Prowler). May contain Strongarm Tactics. Skeleton:
? Thoughtseize
? Reanimate
4 Gathan Riders
4 Stronghold Rats
? Cunning Lethermancer
4 Grafted Wargear
4 Stregth of Lunacy
? Oona's Prowler
? Extractor Demon
? Tombstalker
? Culling Scales
? [Other removal]
? Nether Void
Target: make maximum pressure distributed among dealing damage and proactive attacking their plan.
2. Dedicated discard:
2.a without red, controlish. More discard-engines, Infernal Tutor, Ensnaring Bridge, no "equipment", no Chains; no Culling Scales. The latter destroy our finishers; although, like I said, it can be dropped before finishers, you have to attack their hand at the same time which means that you'll most likely discard your finishers. Tutor has to be used at least because it allows to play 1-2 Echoes, which is better than 3-4, when you can draw 2. Additional junk idea is to add Gibbering Descent. There can be also Rotting Rats, if needed. Skeleton:
4 The Rack
? Cursed Scroll
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Cunning Lethermancer
? Stronghold Rats
1(+) Infernal Tutor
1(+) Ensnaring Bridge
2(-) Haunting Echoes
Target: establish board- and hand-positions, kill them with The Rack, Cursed Scroll or Haunting Echoes.
2.b with red splash. The Rack, Storm World, discard-engines, Squee, madness-removal. May contain Lavaborn Muse, Buried Alive (for Squee, unearth creatures), Strongarm Tactics. Unfortunately, Bridge does not possess to this way to go since you have to keep some cards in your hand not to suffer from Strom World. The issue is if it can exist or not because of manabase.
Target: rape their hand, do some removal/blockers (there's also Necroplasm) and win with TR, SW and/or unearth guys.
3. Chains + Anvil combo, with some unearth, fast spot discard, The Rack. Can include tutor, Crucible of Worlds, Dakmor Savage and Necroplasm (Chains + Anvil + dredge = double dredge + return dredged card + draw, if I don't mistake), Strongarm Tactics. I'm not sure what would be plan B (without combo), so also direction 5.
Target: lock them with the combo and win; there must be plan B...
4. Aggro with G splash. Manabase is an issue again. What does green do for the deck? It gives more big guys that are independent from attachments - Roar of the Wurm, Tarmogoyf, Arrogant Wurm. Wild Mongrel is going to be really big only if you would play Squees (it's hard even to imagine that you would have 1-2 cards to discard during, say, 3 turns) and Squees are crappy for a stompy. So there remain: Roar of the Wurm, Tarmogoyf, Arrogant Wurm. Without Chalice, we can also use O-Naginata. Culling Scales doesn't fit this since it cleans your tokens and goyfs hence doesn't do what it's designed to - clearing the way for attack.. I'm not sure if it can be good, so let me just throw a rough list instead of making a skeleton:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Stronghold Rats
4 Cunning Lethemancer
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Strength of Lunacy
2 O-Naginata
4 Thoughtseize
4. Negate-all W version (discard, sweep). This can be viable even less likely than green version. Those good W spells do not connect with discard anyhow (except for Grunt). This needs some testing, though.
5. More focuse on reanimation. Can use Buried Alive, Reanimate, Recuring Nightmare, Strongarm Tactics. Extractor Demon can be an ok reanimation target while can make damage by himself. No equipment, some Culling Scales. I'm not an expert in reanimator's targets, so I don't list them. Since it's more rogue way to win, it can be paired with Chains combo.
6. Trying Chalice and Trini. They look bad at paper, but who knows.
Here we go.
Ok, I've thrown some ideas, many of them are not well-anylised or tested now; if you are interested in developement, you are wellcome.
I think you wouldn't mind if I collect good points in opening post. Also, I haven't distributed all the cards among directions (which ones deserve their spots and which don't), and it has to be made clear. All interesing cards are underlined once in the post, all abondoned ones are written in italics; I'm not sure that listing them would be more readable, but if it seems necessary, I'll make it.