Tournament Behaviour

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Two questions about specific behaviors;

If an opponent Duresses me, do I have to give him a chance to write down all the cards in my hand after he has chosen what to discard?

If I am drumming my fingers, and the opponent asks me to stop, do I have to?

[cdr]

Yes. He has to write as quick as is reasonably possible, but you have to give him a chance to.

Yes. Of course you do. What is this, the third grade?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Is that a rule, or just human decency?

[cdr]

Both? A judge would probably tell you to cut it out once, and then you'd be into Unsporting - Major territory ("Failing to follow a direct instruction from a tournament official" is one of the three categories of Unsporting - Major).

[citanul]

I'm confused with this. I shuffle the cards in my hand while playing a lot, sliding them or whatever. It has become a habit for so long now I have to pay extra attention to not do it. There's one opponent who always asks me to stop it but 2 minutes later I just do it again.

Is that considered Unsporting Conduct?

[cdr]

The Unsporting Conduct is when a judge tells you not to do something and you continue to do it.

Flicking your cards is a bad habit anyway. If it really bothers someone you play against, you ought to be able to control yourself for at least a match.

[PhanTom_lt]

The Unsporting Conduct is when a judge tells you not to do something and you continue to do it.

Flicking your cards is a bad habit anyway. If it really bothers someone you play against, you ought to be able to control yourself for at least a match.

A lot of players do flick cards in their hands. Exactly because it bothers the opponent. And also it reduces the chances of them deducing your hand contents.

[cdr]

I disagree that they do it on purpose - for almost everyone, it's going to be a bad unconcious habit they picked up from other people. It's like a virus. Most people are not going to do things like that just to bother their opponents.

Also, it really is ultimately a detrimental habit - it's unnecessary movement that wastes time.

[Arsenal]

I have to disagree that it is an unnecessary movement that wastes time.

(1.) Whether it's necessary or not is debateable. If shuffling the contents of my hand reduces my opponent's ability to deduce my hand, then I deem it to be necessary. If the mere act of shuffling the contents of my hand give me a psychological edge, no matter if it's based on emperical data or not, then I deem it to be necessary.

(2.) I typically flick my cards on my opponent's turn, while keeping a keen eye and awareness on the game; I don't see how this wastes any time whatsoever as I'm not the active player the majority of the time.

Even if I flick the cards during my turn while I'm thinking about the best possible play (after I Brainstorm, or Top, etc), I don't see how I waste anymore time flicking my cards than if I kept them 100% at rest in my hand; I'm still using the same amount of time to think, regardless of what my hands may be do subconsiously.

[Mordel]

I sort of roll/drum my thumb and fingers when thinking or whatever sometimes because I am usually all hopped-up on shit(red bull, ephedrine or if it was a few years ago speed) because I would spend all night fucking with my shit and having practice runs with my buddies.

I also fidget and tap my foot a lot. I never really had any issues with that stuff though because if an opponent told me to stop, I would stop. Unless someone has some serious ADHD, if some dude that is buzzing from some sort of stimulant that hasn't slept in like twenty hours can hold off on being twitchy and such, anyone can.

My opponents would often shift their hands around a lot and I always thought it was kind of funny. I always figured they were trying to seem hardcore or something and psych me out. I tended to lose against the cool and collected asian kids at top tables though because they are like the gods of mtg in the Vancouver magic scene. No joke. They are so sick at the game, whether it is luck of being techy. Good guys too most of them.

[Arsenal]

Both? A judge would probably tell you to cut it out once, and then you'd be into Unsporting - Major territory ("Failing to follow a direct instruction from a tournament official" is one of the three categories of Unsporting - Major).

However, when it comes to something as ambiguous and open for interpretation as a flick of the card, sniff of the nose, blinking of the eye, etc., the judge should have no control or authority over that.

I mean, if I really wanted to sniff my nose twice everytime I shuffled my library, thinking it to be assist me in some way (superstition, psychological, etc), then my opponent could call a judge over, and the judge would be able to tell me, "Stop sniffing your nose or suffer the consequences."? I don't understand.

What if I blinked my eyelids three times everytime I drew a card? What if I shuffled half the cards in my hand around, but left the other half at complete rest? Where is the line drawn as to what a judge can rule "unsporting" behavior?

[citanul]

Shuffling the cards in my hand has several benefits for me possibly anoying my opponent.

- It makes sure there is no logic in my hand giving the opponent no possible read on the land count. Just watch it when you start games, starting players will move all land to one side and you can get a great estimate of how many lands they have.

- For some reason it makes sure I know all the cards in my hand. When you keep your hand the same you might miss a card somehow or not see plays. Sounds farfetched but it's true.

Also, almost every top8 video I saw had players doing this with their cards yet no one got called on it.

[cdr]

Again, this is not the third grade. We expect reasonably mature, adult behavior.

If an opponent is bothered enough to call a judge about something you're doing - and if he calls a judge, it probably means you didn't stop after he asked you himself - the judge will make the determination about whether asking you to stop is reasonable.

Most people posting above are not thinking reasonably.


However, when it comes to something as ambiguous and open for interpretation as a flick of the card, sniff of the nose, blinking of the eye, etc., the judge should have no control or authority over that.

I mean, if I really wanted to sniff my nose twice everytime I shuffled my library, thinking it to be assist me in some way (superstition, psychological, etc), then my opponent could call a judge over, and the judge would be able to tell me, "Stop sniffing your nose or suffer the consequences."? I don't understand.

What if I blinked my eyelids three times everytime I drew a card? What if I shuffled half the cards in my hand around, but left the other half at complete rest? Where is the line drawn as to what a judge can rule "unsporting" behavior?

[Arsenal]

But you're making it seem as though shuffling the cards in my hand is some great injustice, it's not. It's highly ambiguous as to if it's "immature" and I don't think a single competitive Magic player would automatically associate shuffling cards in hand w/ unsporting behavior worthy of a judge issued penalty.

[cdr]

I specifically said flicking - which is audible and annoying to some people, much like tapping your fingers on the table.

And yet again, what is Unsporting is continuing to do something after a judge tells you not to, rather than the action itself.

[Arsenal]

I specifically said flicking - which is audible and annoying to some people, much like tapping your fingers on the table.

And yet again, what is Unsporting is continuing to do something after a judge tells you not to, rather than the action itself.

I hate to break it to you, but there's going to be noise during a Magic match. Whether it's the players speaking, the chairs squeaking, or the cellphones beeping, there's going to be noise.

Also, what's considered annoying to the current opponent may not be considered annoying to the next opponent; why is the judge making a ruling on something so ambiguous and open to interpretation anyway?

EDIT: There's a local player who says, "Bingo-Bango" after he draws a card. Everytime, without fail. He doesn't shout it or anything, but just says it in a monotone, regular voice. I don't know where he picked this up from, nor do I really care to know it's origin. I don't find it annoying, etc., but I could see where others might. You're telling me that a judge should have the authority to tell him to stop saying that? It's so ambiguous in terms of "annoying", "immature", "reasonable", etc. that both sides have just as much right in their position.

[Nightmare]

You're being annoying now.

The point is, if your opponent asks you to stop doing something they find annoying (which does not directly effect the game - which is to say, not something like "quit blowing up my lands, it's annoying"), then you should stop. This has nothing to do with rules, it's common sense.

If you continue, he may call a judge. The judge may tell you to stop, perhaps even giving you a formal warning. You should definitely stop then.

If you continue, your opponent may call a judge again. You're now in trouble.

[cdr]

Because judges are there to decide things that are sometimes ambiguous and open to interpretation.

Because sometimes players do act like bratty third graders, and judges need to keep them in check to preserve the experience for everyone else playing in the event.

Let's be clear that this is not a common situation - it's something that I've hardly ever seen come up. What I'm trying to make clear is that judges will not be permissive of immature behavior that's detrimental to others.

[Nightmare]

In an effort to stop this from becoming any more childish, I'm closing it. If you have an issue with that, you know how to PM me.