Natural Order v.s. Polymorph

[GGoober]

Natural Order 2GG
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Natural Order, sacrifice a green creature.
Search your library for a green creature card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.


Polymorph 3U
Sorcery
Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Its controller reveals cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that card into play and shuffles all other cards revealed this way into his or her library.

I am wondering about the complete power levels of these cards that made one jump overnight while the other stay at $0.50


Pros of Natural Order:
- The additional cost cannot be disrupted as compared to Polymorph, where the opponent can easily StP or Lightning bolt a creature in response. This is perhaps the single reason why Natural Order is much better than polymorph.
- Green = fast creatures, which synergizes the use of Natural Order

Cons of Natural Order:
- Search effect, not that it matters since Aven Mindcensor/Mindlock Orb aren't played competitively in Legacy
- Green = crappy color as the main color in Legacy. Not to mention GG isn't that easy to pull off in a format with Wastelands, Moon, B2Bs.
- Requires you to sac a Green creature, being much more specific.



Pros of Polymorph:
- Grabs any creature that is a 1-2 off in the deck.
- Blue = strongest color in magic, easily played in a deck that packs counter-protection (FOW, Dazes). The one-U makes it possible to fit in a stompy/stax shell, employing fast mana via Tombs/Cities
- Can be used on an opponent (you don't want this though unless it's against Dreadstill)
(- Best art ever: Bunnies into monster! lol just kidding)


Cons of Polymorph:
- It needs a legal target that is not part of the cost, so your opponent can destroy your creature and fizzle the spell, unlike Natural Order, where the sacrificing is part of the spell's cost, which cannot be countered.
- Blue = no good creatures that stick on the board, and the only feasible creatures in a mono-blue shell are Mishra's Factory, Manlands etc.
- Reveals your deck to your opponent, not too good, but not a big deal either unless you're playing a secret decklist.



I personally feel that Natural Order is the better card with Progenitus, but at the same time, a part of me screams to test Polymorph in a Chalice shell with FOW and manlands for protecting Mr. Progenitus.

[KillemallCFH]

The fact that your deck needs to be devoid of non-Progentinus creatures for Polymorph to be effective makes Natural Order get the nod over it. Polymorph requires Polymorph -> Progentinus to be the focal point of your deck, whereas Natural Order -> Progentinus can act as a supplement to your main strategy (see: NO Thresh, NO Survival, etc.), and give you that random "Oops, I win" factor.

[Zork]

Natural Order fits into a deck with a backup plan other than beating with manlands. Manlands work in a control shell, but then as a control player you could also run stiflenaught + goyf backup which seems better than polymorph progenitus.

[GGoober]

Someone posted a list with Shackles + Threads + Polymorph, which really seems like a good idea haha. I'll probably work on a list with that. Yupp, I agree that the backup plan for Polymorph is much crappier. I was thinking along the lines of MUC, which happen to run 2-3 Threats MD, so I wasn't thinking too much about 6-8 threats in Thresh or 15+ threats in Survival, Elves that could work in synergy with Natural Order.

I think the Polymorph deck will be different in that it's backup plan has to involve man-land beats, so either in a Stax or Landstill-ish shell would be natural.

[Zork]

The question you have to ask yourself, then, is whether Stax is any better with Prog as a finisher, and whether Poly+Prog is better than Stiflenaught+Goyf in landstill.

I posit that it is not, but feel free to try.

[Skeggi]

Everytime a new combo presents itself, there are people who suggest the Stax shell for this (PainterStone is another example). This is probably because Stax keeps the opponent on a leash long enough for you to get the combo, and is in somewhat dire need of getting a quick(er) finish. But I can tell you that I'm almost certain that Stax has no space for a combo. Partially because all the Stax pieces need to fit together, another reason is that Stax has no way of looking up combo pieces and has no draw engine, or a way to manipulate draw.

Given, with Polymorph basically you'll only need Polymorph and a Factory, but in one shell that uses this, you also run at least 3 Maguses of the Tabernacle, perhaps a fourth, and probably a couple of Angels. The other version runs Moats, so Progenitus can't attack.

Natural Order is ofcourse out of the question in Stax, since it doesn't have any green creatures. I guess one could try some fetchlands and Dyad Arbor, but you'll probably weaken the manabase too much with shenanigans like this. And again, it doesn't fit the puzzle that is a Stax decklist.

[DireLemming]

Partially because all the Stax pieces need to fit together, another reason is that Stax has no way of looking up combo pieces and has no draw engine, or a way to manipulate draw.

Given, with Polymorph basically you'll only need Polymorph and a Factory, but in one shell that uses this, you also run at least 3 Maguses of the Tabernacle, perhaps a fourth, and probably a couple of Angels. The other version runs Moats, so Progenitus can't attack.
In principle I agree, however U/Ug/Uw stax with Intuition and Empyrial Archangel might be a venue worth exploring.

[Moczoc]

Bitterblossom works very good with Polymorph or Proteus Staff, and it's a nice alternative win-condition.

Staff should get more attention, its so funny to morph the opponents big creatures into a smaller one.

[Clark Kant]

I don't think the difference in the price between Natural Order and Polymorph has to do with their relative power.

Here are the key factors.

Natural Order is extremely splashable. You can play 4 Natural Order in ANY deck playing Green as long as the deck plays some creatures (and what green deck doesn't). So the card sees play in everything from Thresh, to the Rock, to Survival, to Elves and just about everything in between.

Polymorph only works if you build a deck that contains absolutely no other creatures, and numerous Mishra's Factories/Mutavaults/F. Conclaves etc. That's severely limits how many decks you can play the combo in.

Polymorph saw reprinting in several popular sets including sixth edition. The only set that Natural Order saw print in was Visions.

In Polymorph decks, the brunt of the work is done by Proteus Staff. Proteus Staff is generally a better card just because it's reusable, lets you stack the deck, and if you're not ready to combo off, lets you cycle out your opponents biggest creatures. Some "Polymorph" decks don't even play Polymorph, and most lists seem to play just 2. Why play more when blue has access to so much card draw and tutor effects?

If you take away those factors, I think Polymorph would probably more expensive than Natural Order, just because blue gives you countermagic, card draw and tutoring effects, and the ability to play it in a Stax shell is huge.

And for those reasons, I think Polymorph decks are generally better at finding, protecting and playing the combo than Order decks. But the fact is, one card is easily splashable and the other one isn't.

[nastynate]

Polymorph saw reprinting in several popular sets including sixth edition. The only set that Natural Order saw print in was Visions.

It was also in Portal. (minor nit pick)

[whienot]

I like the idea of Proteus Staff, but everybody will have artifact hate post side.

.....of course, you can play Staff main and then side them out for Polymorhs to nullify their artifact hate. Seems fun :cool:

[Fossil4182]

Does Polymorph have a place in Landstill maybe? The deck doesn't run a lot of creatures outside of man lands anyway and it could be a kind of "punch through" finish/combo finish.

[rleader]

I am wondering about the complete power levels of these cards that made one jump overnight while the other stay at $0.50

It's not power level necessarily that defines demand vs supply, it's mostly just mindless gottahaveit buzz where people who probably won't even play NO/Prog get the cards just because it's the next big thing. I doubt the rush to pick up Natural Order even has anything to do with people who play Legacy competitively: rather, herd mentality of casual and collectors. After all, if you don't jump now, it might be $30 in a month!

For instance, Painter's Servant was going for $12 for a while even though the ease of finding one vastly outstripped the Grindstone supply.

Card hype stations like Star City fan this, like when the Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo came out, SCG started pricing Helm's at $6+ (it's dropped to $4 several months later) while Leyline of the Void didn't have its price spike at all. In fact, Leyline steadily declined along the same time period. And yet a card that basically *requires* Leylines to actually be worth anything rode a wave of sales. Until that hype stagnated.

Expect Natural Order to settle around $7 or such, imo. It was always an undervalued card, because you had to know they'd print a decent green creature *someday* (though the odds were against it in the last millennium), but it's still narrower than other cards that are going for $15+.

[SpikeyMikey]

Honestly, I expect that after Chicago when all the Prog decks crap out and none of them make day 2, neither Natural Order or Polymorph will be worth talking about anymore. It reminds me of when people were running Basalt Monolith/Power Artifact in Keeper because it was a possible combo win. Except that was better. Progenitus is just weak.

[klaus]

Does Polymorph have a place in Landstill maybe? The deck doesn't run a lot of creatures outside of man lands anyway and it could be a kind of "punch throw" finish/combo finish.

Just a really brief sketch:

3 polymorph
4 BS
4 FOW
4 Bitterblossom
1 Progenitus
3 Spell Snare
2 Path to Exile
2 Shackles
2 EE
3 Vindicate
4 STP
2 Elspeth
4 Standstill
(38)

3 Strand
2 Delta
4 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Sculler
2 Jitte
3 Relic
2 Smoter

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.

[bigbear102]

I think one thing that people have missed in the argument between Polymorph and NO is the way that decks are going to adapt. One of the only ways to deal with Progenitus is making the controller sacrifice it. Green decks on average will fare better against edicts because they will play more creatures, blue decks will have to activate a man land to get around sac effects.

I also believe that Stax will be more heavily played at the GP than it might have because cards like Ghostly Prison and Ensnaring Bridge are very effective against the 10/10. Again, Green decks will probably fare better against this strategy also.

@Spikey: I think there will be several Progenitus decks that day 2, but I think that if it is their sole strategy they will not succeed. Effective hybrids will definitely be a powerhouse at the GP. I predict that at least 1 will top 8.

[MattH]

The biggest issue is that Polymorph can be stopped by removing the target in response, making it exponentially more vulnerable.

[Seriously]

The biggest issue is that Polymorph can be stopped by removing the target in response, making it exponentially more vulnerable.

sure, but with proteus staff and polymorph, they would have to remove every last creature you had out to keep those from going off. also, being blue, you should be packing several counters, so I dont really know about their spot removal making this exponentially more vulnerable. I cant tell you how many natural orders or proxied natural orders I've countered in the last week.

[georgjorge]

Right now, I think Natural Order could be included in a Loam version with Dryad Arbor, the reason being that Loam decks don't have troubles reaching four mana, and they can get back that Arbor from Wastelands/non-Swords removal forever.

If I'd play it in a control shell, I wouldn't play less than three Stifles (both for reaching four mana and for protection against Wasteland).

[MattH]

sure, but with proteus staff and polymorph, they would have to remove every last creature you had out to keep those from going off. also, being blue, you should be packing several counters, so I dont really know about their spot removal making this exponentially more vulnerable. I cant tell you how many natural orders or proxied natural orders I've countered in the last week.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=15445

Polymorph targets a creature. They only have to remove the one creature you're targeting to make the spell fizzle and you get 2-for-1'd.

Proteus Staff also targets, but is reusable at least. Still a chunk of mana to waste, though, and worse if you don't have free and easy token making (basically everything except Bitterblossom and Elspeth).

[Seriously]

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=15445

Polymorph targets a creature. They only have to remove the one creature you're targeting to make the spell fizzle and you get 2-for-1'd.


yeah, thanks, I know what the card does. my point was that in something like elves with natural order, sure they sac a creature as part of the cost, but the deck is mono green so they have NO COUNTERS available to them.

if I was going to cast polymorph, I'd make sure I had a daze, force, counterspell, spell snare, etc back up in my hand before I cast it. I still dont see how a blue shell makes it exponentially more vulnerable.


Proteus Staff also targets, but is reusable at least. Still a chunk of mana to waste, though, and worse if you don't have free and easy token making (basically everything except Bitterblossom and Elspeth).

yeah, its reusable, thats my point. how much spot removal does the average deck run. enough to keep taking out creatures as soon as you can get them out ? I doubt it.

[MattH]

sure, but with proteus staff and polymorph, they would have to remove every last creature you had out to keep those from going off.
The bold part is what I was responding to, where your wording indicated that you very much did NOT understand what the card did.

[heroicraptor]

my point was that in something like elves with natural order, sure they sac a creature as part of the cost, but the deck is mono green so they have NO COUNTERS available to them.
Guttural Response.

[Illissius]

Another option is Show and Tell.

Something like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Show and Tell
4 Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Something or Other
18 mana (Moxen?)

Where Something or Other could be: Daze, Spell Snare, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, War Monk, Doran, Random Other Creature, Snuff/Smother/Demise, Shackles, EE, Grip, Deed, etc.

The advantage of this compared to Natural Order is that it costs :2::u: rather than :2::g::g:; you don't have to resolve, protect, and sacrifice a green creature to get Progenitus; (as a consequence of these two, it's quite a bit faster); you don't get two for oned if Show and Tell is countered; and Show and Tell is blue. The disadvantage is that it takes 8 slots rather than 4; you need to have both pieces in your hand; and Show and Tell lets them put something like Humility, Moat, or even Runed Halo into play, which is awkward.

A closer analogy might be Dreadnought-Stifle. Here, the advantages of Show and Tell are that Progenitus is a hell of a lot more resilient than Dreadnought is, Progenitus pitches to Force, and again, getting Show and Tell countered isn't a two for one; the disadvantage is that it costs one more mana, Stifle is a useful card (unlike, for the most part, Show and Tell), and the aforementioned Humility problem. It's worth noting that while Dreadnought doesn't tend to be a very good plan at all against control decks / decks with lots of removal, Progenitus has a much, much better shot at going the distance.

(I feel like I shouldn't have to point this out explicitly, but nowhere in this post did I suggest that Show and Tell is a better approach, merely that it is another approach.)

[georgjorge]

Nice, I thought about creating a thread for such a deck sometime in the future, and your post summed it up very well (of course, my inspiration for Timmy Thresh came right from the deck you played at MTGSalvation).

I've played the deck some (without white), and I HATED drawing useless combo parts, but somehow the deck does very well so far (including a memorable win against a Rock-ish deck when I won off a third turn Progenitus, his hand being full of Vindicates, Swords, Bitterblossom, Finks and other anti-creature stuff). Progenitus is worse than Dreadnought against Aggro, which is why I think Mongeese are very much needed in that build. There's also the frustrating situation where they drop a Tombstalker or other big flyer off my Show and Tell when I'm holding Force, but Thoughtseize helps a lot here.

[Mr.C]

Nice, I thought about creating a thread for such a deck sometime in the future, and your post summed it up very well (of course, my inspiration for Timmy Thresh came right from the deck you played at MTGSalvation).

I've played the deck some (without white), and I HATED drawing useless combo parts, but somehow the deck does very well so far (including a memorable win against a Rock-ish deck when I won off a third turn Progenitus, his hand being full of Vindicates, Swords, Bitterblossom, Finks and other anti-creature stuff). Progenitus is worse than Dreadnought against Aggro, which is why I think Mongeese are very much needed in that build. There's also the frustrating situation where they drop a Tombstalker or other big flyer off my Show and Tell when I'm holding Force, but Thoughtseize helps a lot here.

Wouldnt Boomerang fit in the deck? Whatever they drop, you can boomerang the following turn.

[Seriously]

The bold part is what I was responding to, where your wording indicated that you very much did NOT understand what the card did.

sure, but I still dont know what you're talking about or what your point is.


Guttural Response.

sure, to get all technical, but I cant think of any decks off the top of my head that have that in the board. not saying there arent any, I just cant think of any.

[heroicraptor]

sure, to get all technical, but I cant think of any decks off the top of my head that have that in the board. not saying there arent any, I just cant think of any.

I doubt there are any, but maybe there should be some.

[Seriously]

I doubt there are any, but maybe there should be some.


probably. I had people boarding in defense grid into their mono green elves, to stop all my counters.

[mercenarybdu]

Lets see....

Both have in common:
-requires creatures
-shuffles up
-S cards

differences:

Order:
-sacrifices a creature (green to be exact)
-a tinker for green creatures (to keep it simple) (be thankful it wasn't just any kind of creautre, because it would've been gone a long time ago)
-GG

Polymorph:
-kills a creature (it doesn't care what it is)
-reveals cards from the top (giving away any information you don't want to disclose to your opponent)
-U

All in all I like to say Polymorph, as you don't have to rely heavily on just one color of creatures.

[troopatroop]

Lets see....

Both have in common:
-requires creatures
-shuffles up
-S cards

differences:

Order:
-sacrifices a creature (green to be exact)
-a tinker for green creatures (to keep it simple) (be thankful it wasn't just any kind of creautre, because it would've been gone a long time ago)
-GG

Polymorph:
-kills a creature (it doesn't care what it is)
-reveals cards from the top (giving away any information you don't want to disclose to your opponent)
-U

All in all I like to say Polymorph, as you don't have to rely heavily on just one color of creatures.

So you're saying that you think Polymorph is more powerful? Playing with green creatures doesn't really limit you at all. Green has some of the best creatures ever. Tarmogoyf, Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, Nimble Mongoose, Wall of Blossoms, Etc. Polymorph requires you to build your entire deck around it, using only Progenitus for creatures, severely limiting deck design, and strength. Natural Order and Progenitus fills a compact 5 slots, Can be inserted into already strong green decks (U/G/w Thresh, Survival Elves), and is a 1 card combo. Tinker. I don't think it's much of a contest.

[dahcmai]

So far, the only thing I can see using this is Thresh styles. They already have the creature base to use it and it's a nice clock all of a sudden.

Polymorph requires you to build a whole new approach to it. Thresh has nice synergies already that needs minimal changes to use this. That has a lot of bearing.

Only thing I see that sucks about it is that the normal global ways to deal with thresh just happen to deal with progenitis also on accident.

[Seriously]

Polymorph requires you to build your entire deck around it, I don't think it's much of a contest.

off the top of my head...

tendrils of agony - requires you to build a deck around it.
goblin charbelcher - requires you to build a deck around it.
brainfreeze - requires you to build a deck around it.



so I dont exactly see how that is such a bad thing.

[C.P.]

off the top of my head...

tendrils of agony - requires you to build a deck around it.
goblin charbelcher - requires you to build a deck around it.
brainfreeze - requires you to build a deck around it.



so I dont exactly see how that is such a bad thing.

off the top of my head...

tendrils of agony - Wins the game right away. Usually on turn 2-3.
goblin charbelcher - Wins the game right away, unless you're unlucky as hell. Goes off on turn 1.
brainfreeze - Wins the game the next time they draw a card. Kills on turn 4-5 ish.

Progenitus - Needs 2 more turns after going off, and non-targeted creature removal deals with it. Goes off on turn 4 ish with additional setup, if you polymorphing it.

so I dont exactly see how that is such a good thing.

[Seriously]

off the top of my head...

tendrils of agony - Wins the game right away. Usually on turn 2-3.
goblin charbelcher - Wins the game right away, unless you're unlucky as hell. Goes off on turn 1.
brainfreeze - Wins the game the next time they draw a card. Kills on turn 4-5 ish.

Progenitus - Needs 2 more turns after going off, and non-targeted creature removal deals with it. Goes off on turn 4 ish with additional setup, if you polymorphing it.

so I dont exactly see how that is such a good thing.

tendrils/belcher are also combo decks, most combo decks need to go off turns 1-3 or they'll die from fast aggro, sputter out or have troubles with control.

putting progenitus into a mono blue polymorph/proteus staff control shell doesnt require it to go off turns 1-3 or die horribly.

sure, non-targeted removal deals with it. but who runs that ? warren weirding in goblins ? what if you had another creature out ? wrath of god ? what decks run that, the mighty quinn ? diabolic edict/innocent blood ? whose going to be running those, a pox deck ? a pox deck, seriously ?

also, you know what CP stands for dont you ?

:eek:

[C.P.]

putting progenitus into a mono blue polymorph/proteus staff control shell doesnt require it to go off turns 1-3 or die horribly.


MUC? Seriously? Who plays that? [/Sarcasm]

MUC is not much better than most of the decks you mocked up there. I'm willing to bet that GP Chicago will see more decks with WoG(Landstill, Quinn) than MUC. MUC is a good deck in right meta, but not when you waste 4+ slots to put in a weak combo that dies to any creature removal. Polymorph seems worse than any of the win conditions that the deck can run. Assuming you have comlete control of the game enough to set polymorph up, how is it better than Morphling? It is 2 turns slower, but much less of a all-in card and faster. For much less slot.

Natural Order gives decks with green creatures another dimention and makes it more versitile, while Polymorph in MUC does none of that. Also note that NO serves as a tutor if situtation is dire, while Polymorph/Staff does a jack when it is not calling progenitus up.





also, you know what CP stands for dont you ?
:eek:

This coming from a guy with phedo bear as his avatar?

[Seriously]

MUC? Seriously? Who plays that? [/Sarcasm]

europe ?


MUC is not much better than most of the decks you mocked up there. I'm willing to bet that GP Chicago will see more decks with WoG(Landstill, Quinn) than MUC. MUC is a good deck in right meta, but not when you waste 4+ slots to put in a weak combo that dies to any creature removal. Polymorph seems worse than any of the win conditions that the deck can run. Assuming you have comlete control of the game enough to set polymorph up, how is it better than Morphling? It is 2 turns slower, but much less of a all-in card and faster. For much less slot.

well I didnt specifically to take MUC and stick progenitus in it. I just meant like a generic control shell that was mono blue. sort of the same, sort of different.

progenitus does no die to ANY creature removal. just non-targeted, I thought we covered this.

you do not need complete control of the game to get progenitus out, you just have to have counter back up when casting polymorph or activating the staff.

morphling takes 4 turns, requiring 2 mana to pump it each turn and atleast another open to give it shroud/flying/both, if needed.


Natural Order gives decks with green creatures another dimention and makes it more versitile, while Polymorph in MUC does none of that. Also note that NO serves as a tutor if situtation is dire, while Polymorph/Staff does a jack when it is not calling progenitus up.

polymorph pitches to force.

[C.P.]

progenitus does no die to ANY creature removal. just non-targeted, I thought we covered this.



Killing the creature in repose to the Polymorph.


...Also, A card being pitched to force does not justify anything. You know what else pitches to force? Every Blue card ever made.

[Seriously]

progenitus does no die to ANY creature removal. just non-targeted, I thought we covered this.



Killing the creature in repose to the Polymorph.


I dont know if you noticed but like 99% of the creatures in this format die to spot removal. spot removal fucks everyones day up, that doesnt mean its an automatic game loss, just slows things down.

goyf ? tombstalker ? dreadnaught ? all die to various forms of spot removal, have people stopped playing them because of that. NO.

if you have counter back up, then you can always counter their spot removal, if you're not worried about spot removal + counters on their end.


...Also, A card being pitched to force does not justify anything. You know what else pitches to force? Every Blue card ever made.

au contraire. between proteus staff and polymorph, you have 8 ways to get progenitus into play. you're not always going to need every polymorph you draw. the fact that its a combo piece and a force pitcher gives it a double function. yeah, every blue card ever made pitches to force, thats what makes force great aside from the alternate casting cost. its not like you can pitch an extra natural order to help counter anything.

[georgjorge]

The point is, Progenitus doesn't really have Shroud because they can kill the creature you would use to fetch it. Which is far easier to do with Polymorph than with Natural Order, especially if the latter is played in a Survival shell or with Dryad Arbor + Loam.

[uberfrank]

Another Pro for Natural Order is the ability to fetch something else than Progenitus. One of the cards that make a lot of sense to that effect is Woodfall Primus, which would deal with potential answers to Progenitus, like Runed Halo, Moat, CoP, etc...

[Skeggi]

The major difference with Natural Order is that you need to have quite some green creatures in your deck. With Polymorph, you can only have 1 or 2 Progenituses (or whatever plural is for Progenitus).

This results in the fact that with Natural Order you can go many ways. You can go Alix Hatfield's Thresh list, or Survival, or some other aggro-combo deck, still with a solid manabase and Goyfs backing you up. It's not exactly a punishment to have a decent green creature base, because green has quite a few good creatures.

With Polymorph you basically need to incorporate it into Landstill, because, let's face it, it's the only build running blue which doesn't require creatures and already has manland. But Stiflenought is probably a stronger choice than Progenitus, but it's not unthinkable to favor Polymorph/Progenitus over Stiflenought because of spot-removal like Krosan Grip for instance. It also dodges Counterbalance, something Stiflenought really doesn't do. In fact, Stiflenought jumps right in. And it doesn't mess up the plan with Elspeth and vice versa, so that can be pretty good actually.

All in all I think I must conclude that I would prefer Natural Order because of its versatility. But that's what I think. I'm very willing to accept the fact that other people prefer Polymorph :wink:.

[mercenarybdu]

So you're saying that you think Polymorph is more powerful? Playing with green creatures doesn't really limit you at all. Green has some of the best creatures ever. Tarmogoyf, Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, Nimble Mongoose, Wall of Blossoms, Etc. Polymorph requires you to build your entire deck around it, using only Progenitus for creatures, severely limiting deck design, and strength. Natural Order and Progenitus fills a compact 5 slots, Can be inserted into already strong green decks (U/G/w Thresh, Survival Elves), and is a 1 card combo. Tinker. I don't think it's much of a contest.

DISCLAIMER: This is only my opinion if I were to choose between the two cards.

[MattH]

Spot removal is a 2-for-1 against Polymorph, not so against Order.

Monoblue-with-Poly is better than monogreen-with-Order, sure, but this is legacy, there's no reason you can't run Blue-with-Order.

[abel_lg]

I know this post is quite old, but I will like to contribute. Both spells are quite good, one fits better in other decks than the other, but Polymorph will be in a blue shell, being blue more powerful than green as monocolor. What I have to remind is that a UG deck with NO isn't so crazy. In the manner of older Opposittion decks done, running Natural Order with Deranged Hermit. Maybe with Survival of the Fittest as a way to discard Progenitus if you draw it. And if you want not to include so much green you will always fetch for a Dryad Arbor and have also a pair of Khalni Garden (I know Khalni Garden can´t be picked with fetchlands, I refer having another option than fetching Dryad Arbor): 3 lands + 4 NO + 1 Progenitus = 8 card slots.

Also NO sac effect prevents you to waste a counter on target removal, I know on a blue based deck you will have tons of conters, but if I can save one for the next turn when Progenitus attacks (Diabolic Edict and something like that).

[ryO!]

In my opinion the main difference that makes NO "better" is that the sac is part of the NO cost, as for polymorph u have to target a creature so it can be answered by a removal which would nullify the effect of polymorph. which makes poly really bad.

[Tammit67]

Yeah and that you can a) find a green creature from your deck instead of playing roulette b) don't have to play such a linear strategy.

Let this thread die

[godryk]

Nowadays, Polymorph has one advantage over Natural Order in that it can sneak a nasty Emrakul. Just saying, not that I'm thinking it's actually playable.

[kiblast]

as said above by skeggi, poly is only playable in landstill.
I'm currently testing UWx build and i have to say that it could really make the cut. It works nice with elspeth, and obviously manlands. A standard UWx build with 2 elspeth and maybe 5 manlands would support Poly nicely, and could be a cheap win con if you can't afford 70 euros Jaces (like, umh..me). Could even resolve Landstill problem of closing the game before turns, as Jace normally takes up to 5 turns to win and a Progenitus usually needs 2-3 (we play stp's, so swording goyfs gives more ''time'' to our opponent, but this is marginal). Also for everybody who is sayin that Poly is too easily fizzable by using wasteland/bolt/random removal on your manlands, remember that landstill play lots of counters, and we could even answer with this card:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGINV/teferis_response.jpg

Teferi's response, wich was played in some old Landstill builds (maybe 2-3 years ago, BeforeJace era when manlands/tokens represented main win con for Landstill)..this card let's you play Poly safely... and you need 7 mana (4 for Poly cmc+1 for mishra's activation cost +2 Teferi's response = 7) wich are normally reached by landstill during your 7th-8th turn. Closing a game with landstill on your 9th-10th turn is something really good, as you don't need to go on the Jace control (and slower) route...this would also give to the PolyLandstill build an advantage in the mirror, as our only answer to Progenitus is either one of the 2 WoG's or the singleton Humility.
I will give it a try for sure, maybe as a 3 ofs.

My 2 cents. Criticize please.

[Atwa]

I've been actually thinking about a same sort of deck. I think however I'll take a Sneak Attact shell and make it mono U. Shoving 4 Emrakul, 4 Progenitus along with Show and Tell in a deck with manlands and Polimorph seems like it could be strong. Propably very inconsistent, but that never stopped me before :)

[kiblast]

. Propably very inconsistent, but that never stopped me before :)

Lol. I love consistency and reliability...that's why i naturally thought of landstill.... show and tell/sneak is too much ''oops i win'' for me!

[GGoober]

I actually played Teferi's Response in my meta and it was the best card hands-down. For the longest time, my meta had way too many black suicide, black control decks with Hymn + Sinkhole + Wasteland.

That card is a beast in the right meta. I think you can pull Teferi + Polymorph in landstill only in small metagame groups though, not sure if I'm willing to run the narrow TR in a big tournament, but Landstill is a deck with endless answers/possibilites, so pick the best for your meta. All I can testify TR is brutal :)

I would imagine that Polymorph is more suited to a UWx Countertop list where x=/= green. E.g. UWb or UWr Countertop. Countertop will protect your factory from any answers, and since you don't play green, it's not Countertop with Goyf, so you can potentially run 1 Emrakul (prevents yourself from decking at worst) with 2 Polymorph and use that as a backup plan to Jace.

[Grollub]

Another possible idea could be to not run any creatures at all, Polymorph/Staff without creatures to morph into would allow you to stack your entire deck as you want; which in most cases should be every bit as much GG as putting a Progenitus or Emrakul into play - if anything you can put a Charbelcher at top and kill upon activation.

[Skeggi]

A very creative idea Grollub, however I'm affraid stacking a deck isn't as strong as putting a 15/15 Annihilator 6 with protection from colored spells into play (with Polymorph, there are very few situations where Progenitus would be preferred over Emrakul, The Aeons Torn). If you want to win by stacking your deck, I suggest Doomsday.

[Atwa]

Another possible idea could be to not run any creatures at all, Polymorph/Staff without creatures to morph into would allow you to stack your entire deck as you want; which in most cases should be every bit as much GG as putting a Progenitus or Emrakul into play - if anything you can put a Charbelcher at top and kill upon activation.

I remember a deck which worked like that. It was running mono U Control with manlans and this combo finish. Even before the printing of Pridemage and Krosan Grip, this was way too fragile to run. I think the only way Polymorph or staff is playable, is when playing big Eldrazi.