Paypal Dispute

[Jak]

So a guy filed a dispute on me because he didn't receive the cards. I have receipts documentng that I did send them and I offered inaurance. Can I be held responsible for this and have to pay?

[nitewolf9]

No, you probably won't have to pay. What did Paypal tell you so far?

[Jak]

No, you probably won't have to pay. What did Paypal tell you so far?

Nothing so far. He has only filed a dispute and hasn't upped it to a claim so I guess they don't get involved until then.

He messaged me through the resolution center that Paypal has and I messaged back saying how I have receipts, offered insurance, blah blah blah. He comes back saying he believes me and that his only option is to file a claim with Paypal to recover the loss.

[Team-Hero]

I have disputed 3 times against a person for not receiving a product. I have never won.

[Jak]

I have disputed 3 times against a person for not receiving a product. I have never won.

Well did they have proof that they shipped?

[cdr]

If you have proof you shipped, you should be ok.

If you don't, you autolose.

[Bourgeoise]

I sincerely doubt that that is how paypal works, if you have documentation that you sent the item and that you offered insurance then paypal won't be responsible for any losses that this guy is trying to claim.

[OffTheWall]

I have had numerous suits filed against me over the years and not once have I won the case. I have provided tracking, conformation numbers everything. I have even used paypal on occasion to print the shipping labels from so I have all the proof possible that I have shipped the items.
I am assuming that paypal would rather have happy buyers than happy sellers, which is why they always side with the buyer.

I too would love to find out how to win a dispute if anyone knows.

[dahcmai]

I actually never try and refuse them. I do it to save feedback. I just keep a little of the shipping money in Paypal for stuff like that and refund it no matter what. I do a lot of business though so it adds up. I may make a ton off charging 50c over what I need, but sometimes people say they didn't get it and I just don't care if they did or not so I refund it anyway.

They only time I'd dispute it is if it's in the US because I use delivery notification for everything. Good luck proving I didn't send it then. I just can't use it for Europe so I'd rather just keep them happy instead of fighting over something I can't prove very well either.


I even refunded the price of an Urza's Saga set once. Ouch.



The only other way I know how to do it is to send stuff registered mail. It takes forever to get there if it's a foreign country, but you know they signed for it.

[Seriously]

Nothing so far. He has only filed a dispute and hasn't upped it to a claim so I guess they don't get involved until then.

He messaged me through the resolution center that Paypal has and I messaged back saying how I have receipts, offered insurance, blah blah blah. He comes back saying he believes me and that his only option is to file a claim with Paypal to recover the loss.

well, did you actually spend the $0.75 extra and get delivery confirmation ? most people dont, but its a lifesaver. if you didnt but still have the receipt, then that might work, but not as well. its all up to the guy on when he wants to escalate it to a claim or not.

i've won and lost several paypal cases. Im not always pleased on how they handle things. tell this guy that you'll refund him when he returns the item. in the meantime, block him on your ebay blocker bidders list, so you wont have to deal with him again in the future.

[Afro]

I have had numerous suits filed against me over the years and not once have I won the case. I have provided tracking, conformation numbers everything. I have even used paypal on occasion to print the shipping labels from so I have all the proof possible that I have shipped the items.
I am assuming that paypal would rather have happy buyers than happy sellers, which is why they always side with the buyer.

I too would love to find out how to win a dispute if anyone knows.

This. Your SoL. The buyer has ALL the power at Ebay and Paypal. You are responsible to getting the item to them whether or not you offered insurance or not. It is stupid an those who know how the system works can EASILY exploit it when they know what they are doing. Either through Paypal or their credit card companies.

[dahcmai]

I'll let you in on a little secret. You can't track shit to foreign countries, but it's rare people actually know that.

When someone says they didn't get something I say I will go check the post office and see where it is and give it 4 days. Usually, they come around and say it showed up when it's obvious it's someone trying to get something for free. If they don't respond in the 4 days I say it's tied up in customs (which it probably is) and they wait a little longer. I've never lost a package, but once.

In the US, have delivery notification or slap yourself in the head for not doing it. It's 75 cents. Cmon, you can afford that for some piece of mind. I bother to give them the tracking info and no one ever, ever tries to deny that.

[Occam]

I'll let you in on a little secret. You can't track shit to foreign countries, but it's rare people actually know that.

When someone says they didn't get something I say I will go check the post office and see where it is and give it 4 days. Usually, they come around and say it showed up when it's obvious it's someone trying to get something for free. If they don't respond in the 4 days I say it's tied up in customs (which it probably is) and they wait a little longer. I've never lost a package, but once.

In the US, have delivery notification or slap yourself in the head for not doing it. It's 75 cents. Cmon, you can afford that for some piece of mind. I bother to give them the tracking info and no one ever, ever tries to deny that.

This is very true.

On top of that, a lot of couriers do not track internationally, or outside the continent. Insurance liability is also a problem for fedex, which is liable for a maximum of USD$100 or $9.07 per pound, whichever is less. I've heard some horror stories regarding fedex's insurance policy.

As far as PayPal is concerned, it is biased towards buyers as far as chargebacks are concerned. I have had personal experience within PayPal before, and I'll just say that a lot of the problem is that eBay Inc. has a motto that ascribes to all humans basically being good (although buyer-driven revenue may have played a part in this). When buyers activate a chargeback via their credit card, claiming unauthorised use, for example, there really isn't a whole lot that PayPal can do either. For receipt-based chargebacks, there really isn't a surefire model at play. The best thing to do would be to take note of the post above and ensure that you at least have proof of receipt, to give yourself the best possible chance of winning.

Edit:

The best way to reduce chargebacks is proactive buyer management. For large transactions, due diligence on buyers is necessary. I have seen chargebacks on $3000+ worth of test prints, and it is tremendously dismaying. I know there's a thin line that sellers are treading with respect to new bidders' reputation versus sales revenue, but knowing traditional problem shipping areas or having friends in the area to check out the buyer can be important. Getting vouches from other sellers could work too. Ultimately, there isn't one single catchall solution, but a combination of the above and a healthy does of common sense tends to alleviate chargeback problems.

Hope this helps, and hope no one has any large losses through chargebacks.

[OffTheWall]

Worst one I ran into actually was shipping in the US. I shipped a comic ($100.00) to a guy in texas. delivery conformation and everything. He called me (yes it is that easy to get a phone number from either ebay or paypal). and told me that I had shipped him something other than the comic book. He said he opened it at the post office in front of other people and the package contained a military ID, 2 credit cards, and a drivers licence all belonging to other people. He told me he was going to call the FBI and report it because he was afraid of identity theft. I told him I would refund the money to him as long as he shipped me what was in the package, so I could contact the proper people and find out what happened. Well about a week later I receive a package from him with: a crayon, a small crystal and 2 used walmart gift cards. I tracked the gift cards to a shop in Texas (several hundred miles away from him). Even after going through all of this with paypal, they still gave him his money back because they said the item was not as described.

That is on top of the 2 Jap foil brainstorms and Korean Tolarian Academy that never made it to their destination (overseas and canada) last month.

[Forbiddian]

Not to help scammers or anything, but a pretty common (alleged) scam on MOTL is to say, "I got a package, but cards were missing."


It's hard to judge who's right because for a big trade. You could ship Registered Mail for "proof" but then leave cards out.

Also, you could receive the cards but want extras if you're on the other side of the transaction, so either side could be the scammer.


Shipping registered mail won't help you much (neither will proof of delivery or whatever else), since they can always claim you shipped the wrong goods.

[Jak]

I would like everyone to know that after weeks and weeks of paypal looking over the information/evidence I sent them, I still lost. Can I get a big "FUCK THAT!"? I mean, how retarded is that? The guy even said he believed I sent them. So now I'm out 40 bucks which is lame, but not horrible. What bugs me the most is the fact that I don't know how to protect myself in the future. Do you make insurance mandatory? Is there any way I can dispute this decision? I am kind of ticked because I now have a negative balance in paypal.

[Forbiddian]

I would like everyone to know that after weeks and weeks of paypal looking over the information/evidence I sent them, I still lost. Can I get a big "FUCK THAT!"? I mean, how retarded is that? The guy even said he believed I sent them. So now I'm out 40 bucks which is lame, but not horrible. What bugs me the most is the fact that I don't know how to protect myself in the future. Do you make insurance mandatory? Is there any way I can dispute this decision? I am kind of ticked because I now have a negative balance in paypal.

Making insurance mandatory is stupid.

Partially related story: I just tried to buy some cards, and in little fine print in the middle (of a massive copy/pasted post... who reads that before bidding?), he said, "If bids go over $40, insurance is mandatory." He charges $9.95 for insurance!!!! Anyway, I didn't see that until after I'd won the auction, when he tries to gouge me an extra 15 bucks (he was already changing 4.50 shipping -- I assumed insurance would be included in that, since it's a fucking gouge already). BTW, he lives in like Montana, so not even international shipping.

Anyway, I get my money back and he gets some whopping negative feedback for his effort (dispute would have turned up in my favor anyway, but he refunded me).


Anyway, moral of the story: By bidding, you agree to pay Price + Posted Shipping for the listed item. Buyers have the right to decline insurance (let's face it: Mail DOES NOT GET LOST IN THE US, insurance is a waste of cash for non-fragile goods).

Bidding on an item is not equivalent to signing a contract that you agree to everything the seller posted (especially fine print). Even if you wrote "insurance mandatory," they can still decline it, especially if you post it as an option.


If you'd like to making insurance mandatory, you could charge 2.50 shipping (fairly common shipping charge, although it's at least a dollar over what's actually necessary). With that you can buy insurance on any item. But it's still pointless since the only question (in the US anyway) is who ripped whom. The mailman did not lose your shit.



If you're a big business, you can just accept the losses. If you're smaller, you can try screening buyers.

Still, rips happen sometimes. There's really not a whole lot you can do about it. Demanding insurance, etc. won't help (except to pad the losses by overcharging).

If it helps, you can start selling very small cards with $2.50 shipping. Bam.

[cdr]

I got tired of assholes and morons trying to rip me off on eBay, so I make insurance mandatory on all international orders and all orders over $50 in the US.

Forbiddian is wrong, to put it lightly. Sellers cannot break eBay/PayPal rules with what they write in the listing, but beyond that, they can hold you to any reasonable stipulation.

Selling any cards that will end below $10 is not even worth it for most people on eBay. The fees destroy you. Still, if you're going to sell stuff that's that worthless, you can probably afford to just use a $0.40 stamp and take the loss if someone decides to rip you.

I ship with priority, which is $5, and insurance is $2.15. Priority is completely worth it from my perspective, as it makes it harder for mouth-breathing bidders to screw with me.

You could do first class + delivery confirmation for around $3, but then you have to add $0.50-$1 for a bubble mailer, and at that point it's not worth it to do it over Priority.

As far as Jak, it sounds like he learned a painful lesson about not using delivery conf/insurance on eBay.

[Volt]

I recently got burned for $35 when the guy claimed he didn't receive the cards. He waited exactly 30 days without ever sending me a single email, and then filed a claim. I'm pretty sure he was a lying motherfucker, but I couldn't prove I sent the cards because I simply put them in an protective envelope and dropped it in the mailbox. All I could do was say sorry and refund his money. Better that than risk having some asshole blemish my perfect feedback rating. First time that's happened to me in 8 years and hundreds of transactions, but now I'm paranoid. From now on, Delivery Confirmation, even though it means an annoying trip to the post office.

[cdr]

You don't need to go to the post office for delievery conf if you buy your postage online through USPS.com or PayPal.

One of the primary reasons I use Priority shipping is it's dead simple to pay + print through PayPal, and delivery conf is free when you buy online.

[Volt]

Thanks for the tip, cdr.

The worst part about the dispute process was that I was forced to select "I didn't send the item and will refund the buyer" in order to resolve it and close out the case. The system really is heavily biased toward the buyer.

[cdr]

Yeah, that's a real tough pill to swallow when you realize it. Most people haven't the faintest idea just how seller-hostile eBay/PayPal is.

I'm now going to extra lengths to cut out eBay as much as possible. Ultimately, it's not nearly worth it.

[Volt]

The other sucky thing is that I've gotten screwed as a buyer, too. Two or three times over the years, I've not received my cards. I filed disputes, won the disputes, but didn't get my money back because the sellers had closed their bank accounts. Useless fucking system.

[keys]

The other sucky thing is that I've gotten screwed as a buyer, too. Two or three times over the years, I've not received my cards. I filed disputes, won the disputes, but didn't get my money back because the sellers had closed their bank accounts. Useless fucking system.

Yup, seems like the only way to "win" a dispute as a seller is to close out your account... which is completely counter-intuitive to creating a transparent and fraud-free system. Oh well. I've gotten scammed as a buyer before too, though it was only for about $15.

I'm not saying I have a solution, either. In fact I think it's worse when the buyer gets scammed (and probably a lot more common) so it's a good thing that it's weighted in their favor. For the seller it's just the cost of doing business, and you have to account for that.