Beating Combo with Zoo

[Frank The Tank]

I run the following 4 color Zoo deck and as you would expect I have trouble with Combo.

// Lands
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Plateau
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [R] Kird Ape
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [CNF] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer


Now my question is is there anything else I can do via main deck or side (that doesn't weaken my other match ups) to help me against combo?

Is Leyline of the Void better for this decks side then Yixlid?

What are the proper plays, with Mulliganing etc, when I play combo like Belcher, Storm, or Dredge?

Thanks for the info as I will be using it next week in Chicago :)

[bowvamp]

Well, if you feel that you are good vs. everything else then:
4 Silence
4 Orim's Chant
would be awesome! But if it's for chicago then:
4 Chant
4 Ethersworn Cannonist

[SuperBean]

Wow... How can you overlook Gaddock Teeg

[Obfuscate Freely]

Could you maindeck a set of Thoughtseizes? I realize that discard isn't generally considered complementary to Zoo's strategy, but Thoughtseize might be good enough to make up for that. Consider it extra Tarmogoyf/Counterbalance removal, as well as maindeck combo hate.

Pyroclasm seems like an obvious sideboard card. Not only is it good against Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves, but it is also great against Dredge. It is also an answer to Empty the Warrens, although I'm not sure if that's important, anymore (do Belcher decks even still use it?).

You might consider trying to work Fireblast into the deck. It speeds up your clock, and in exactly the right way to occasionally wreck Ad Nauseam players.

[Jaynel]

Wow... How can you overlook Gaddock Teeg

Check the maindeck.

[SuperBean]

Yep, you are correct... I totally missed that one.

Either way, Zoo's match-up against combo isn't really a good one. Ethersworn Cannonist works to some extent, but it could also end up hurting the Zoo player to some extent.

Your best bets are Engineered Explosives, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Runed Halo, and Gaddock Teeg. When it comes down to it, Orim's Chant and Abeyance are your best options. You just wait for the hand to be dumped, or you see a significant amount of mana being ramped and then you Chant them in response to there last ritual and they burn for quite a bit and fizzle.

You also have to take into consideration that almost all of the storm decks have a way around the disruption, through Grapeshot, Shattering Spree, Hull Breach, Pact of Negation, and others.

I think as a Zoo player you should realize that combo is going to be one of your worst, if not the worst match-up you can have.

Also, why use up board slots on Yixlid Jailer? Are you really that worried about Dredge? If that's the reason it's in there I would just take it out because when playing Zoo you have plenty of 1-2 drops that easily chump block the Ichorids and get rid of the Bridge from Belows. A few Tormod's Crypts would suffice, especially since Crypt will be a better board card against a broader selection of match-ups.

Hopefully that helps.

[Frank The Tank]

Everytime I have lost to Dredge it was because of all the zombie tokens turn 2 or 3 and not because of the Ichorids.

If i put in Crypts when is the best time to pop it? Do I respond to Narcomoeba's trigger, wait until the player is done dredging, as soon as a bridge hits the graveyard, or when? I have so little experience playing against this deck and dont have a clue how what is best.

I would love to toss in some thoughtseizes but have no idea what to take out / even if it is worth it. I sometimes catch alot of heat running main deck K Grips but they have saved my ass many-a-times. Same goes for Fireblasts. I wasn't sure if I wanted to run those or Price of Progresses. I figured while i run 4 colors i couldn't be able to cast two in a game (lack of mountains) and figured PoP usually hits for alot more.


Also, can you name zombie tokens etc with Runed Halo?

[from Cairo]

Everytime I have lost to Dredge it was because of all the zombie tokens turn 2 or 3 and not because of the Ichorids.


Mogg Fanatic or something similar could work to remove bridges.


Also, can you name zombie tokens etc with Runed Halo?

No.

[Omega]

Against combos using ad nauseum, i think your best strategy MD would be to deal enough damage to them to prevent them from using Ad nauseum, or to increase their chance of dying :)

Otherwise, discard, gaddock teeg seem like decent answer. I wouldnt go with cards like Orim's chant... They arent really good.

[Valtrix]

Here's the deal with zoo. You need to devote a lot of slots of your sideboard to reliably have a turn 2 thing to deal with combo. Essentially you have three good choices, in order from best to worst:

Gaddock Teeg: The best, because he not only shuts down combo, he really helps you in the control matchups, and anything that might want to run EE.

Ethersworn canonist: Second best, because while you can be slowed a little bit, this guy can't be hit with duress. In addition, over thorn, he can come in as an additional creature versus things that will have trouble dealing with extra threat density.

Thorn of amythst: While I was originally a strong proponent of this card, because I felt that it would buy you more time. I think it's become the worst choice, simply because it can be hit by duress, and isn't good when you want extra creatures.

Anything else is not really good enough in my opinion. Namely, you need permanant answers. Chant effects are not good for zoo, because you can't afford to keep one mana open each time to prevent them from going off. In addition, when you rely on this strategy combo can either duress/chant you, thus making that route pretty worthless. I'm unsure about thoughtseize. It could be helpful, but I feel like combo can still outrace losing one card.

Also, I recommend that if you care about the combo matchup at all that you run 6-8 copies of hate cards, because it's essential that you start off with an answer to them.

Random note about your list is that I think doran should be replaced with creatures in your main color to improve the consistency with which you can play it. If you want a big beater I'd go with thoctar, otherwise I'd recommend any of the other good cheap beaters: watchwolf/figure/etc. But that's a discussion for a different thread :P I like the main K-grips though. I feel like they can pull wins from games you shouldn't win otherwise.

[Frank The Tank]

Funny you should mention Thoctar because I used to run them but some people at my local meta told me that Doran was much better due to pumping up Goyf, Kird ape etc.

I used to run Watchwolf but pulled them to make room for the Dark Confidants and or Gaddock Teegs.

Over on the Zoo forums they discuss figure of destiny and most people believe he is too slow and isn't worth the mana investment. I have the Doran/Thoctars in there for mid to late game beat downs (along side goyf) but I guess it could as easily be Fireblast, 2 more Price of Progresses, etc.

Keep the comments comming as it really helps me prepair for the GP. I thought playing on MWS would be enough but that metagame is all messed up lol.

[puppektion]

Any time you hit a non-land off a confidant, the combo player's going to be thinking "just 1 less storm"

[SuperBean]

Very true as well, As a T.E.S player I welcome Confidant.

[puppektion]

Very true as well, As a T.E.S player I welcome Confidant.

I was toying around with AnT for a while (still missing the duals... damn Chicago price spike). Either way, the same thing worked for me... Simple things that make decks more vulnerable: Dark Confidant, Fetchlands, Ancient Tomb... Hey, looks like this is running 2/3. That might make things a bit more difficult:cry:
Admitedly, the helix will help, but 10 fetches + 4 confidants = happy combo player.

[Frank The Tank]

With my experience though I hardly live after turn 2 or 3 if I am lucky so the confidant is not an issue. As for pain lands I tend to only use one or so around that same time frame. If anything I will just side out the confidants and thocatar/ Doran for my combo hate.

[puppektion]

I'm simply saying, don't give them more reason to kick the shit out of you. You're already aggro, so generally your matchups against combo... suck.

But any time that you're making it so they need less of a storm, i mean, you might as well just bend over and spread your cheeks; It's not going to end well, so you might as well try to help yourself out.

[Charlatan]

"3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [CNF] Path to Exile"

This 8 slots doesn't make your deck less aggro?
I like Zoos that run 3 vindicate, so you can deal with more threats running only 3 cards...

If you fear ichorid, you will run mogg and yixlid...

usualy aggainst combo first MU is auto-loss, and against it, u can run gaddock, ethersworn and duress/seize...

you should cut needle and chant... dont see any need for zoo's sb...

[Frank The Tank]

Needle is for wastelands, man lands, EEs (when Teeg isn't out), Deed, etc

Orim's chant is for combo.

I stated above why I run K grips

I run the PoEs because the life swing of Swords was too much

Price of Progress is my finisher.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I would love to toss in some thoughtseizes but have no idea what to take out / even if it is worth it. I sometimes catch alot of heat running main deck K Grips but they have saved my ass many-a-times. Same goes for Fireblasts. I wasn't sure if I wanted to run those or Price of Progresses. I figured while i run 4 colors i couldn't be able to cast two in a game (lack of mountains) and figured PoP usually hits for alot more.
I would probably cut the Lightning Helices for Thoughtseizes. Helix seems like the weakest card in the deck, especially when you consider how it strains the manabase.

As for Price of Progress, I agree that it normally does more damage than Fireblast, but Fireblast is clearly better against combo decks. Now, normally, I wouldn't recommend making such a change, but if Price of Progress is the reason you have built your manabase the way you have (specifically, with basic lands), it might be worth it to make the swap. That way, you could optimize your manabase better (ie., cut the basics for more duals), which would be beneficial in every matchup, while gaining an additional boost (however marginal) against combo, thanks to Fireblast.

If you do fit in Fireblast, which you could theoretically do even without cutting Price, the Gaddock Teegs would have to become Ethersworn Canonists or Tidehollow Scullers. Canonist is probably better combo hate, anyway, although it is less useful in other matchups. Sculler is decent in almost any matchup, and it works well next to Thoughtseize, but it isn't as powerful against combo as either of the other two.

Even if you make all of these changes, I would still keep the Chants in the board. They are one of your best tools against storm decks, and represent an important aspect of a comprehensive anti-combo plan. Yes, you have to keep :w: open to utilize Chant, but doing so forces the opponent to hold back, as well. When this can buy you the time to bring other disruption online, such as Thoughtseize and Canonist, you begin to have a realistic shot at winning two out of three games.

[abbeyroad]

Glowrider might be a nice card as it fits with the beatdown theme of zoo as well as hindering combo.

[Frank The Tank]

I run basics mainly because of wasteland, Bloodmoon, Back to Basics, etc type of effects. That way no matter what I can get the K grip out to get rid of them.

I am thinking of cutting the two Woolly Thoctars for 2 Fireblasts. Comments?

[kicks_422]

I think your best bet would be Chants and Teegs. This way, your hate options are diversified (instant and creature). I don't think Ethersworn Canonist is a good choice... As a combo player, I've never feared it, because it still allows me to play spells (unlike Sphere effects and Mage effects). Also Canonist gets hit by all anti-combo-hate cards (artifact kill, creature kill, bounce, etc).

[Dark_Cynic87]

I play TES and ANT Hybrid exclusively. Teeg is decent against TES, but I'll Doomsday around it all day long with ANT. However, if I don't see the Cannonist coming, it really can screw with me. Chants are stupid as I'll just chant you back at the beginning of your upkeep, timewalk you and try to combo off again.

I think that along with Teegs, Cannonists and T-Seize is probably the best idea. Cannonists are good at screwing with Threshes Tempo, although they have a much easier time of dealing with them. However, if they are dealing with them, you are landing creatures, not losing them to the removal that the Cannonists eat.

Fireblast: I think it's a bad call. It may win you a couple games, but I think the lifegain on Helix is way more relevant even in the combo mu. 6-damage gap created each time means less ad nauseam drawing for them and more storm count to win. Every time you helix you make them have to add 2 storm count to win.

Pce,

--DC

[Phoenix]

It seems i'm the only one who still likes pyrostatic pillar... :cry: