GW... Terra-quarium?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

This is an idea that I think has been bouncing around in all our heads since Knight of the Reliquary was first spoiled, so I've decided to attempt something with it. I've tried to keep this deck idea pretty simple, and without (too many) frills. I love the name, minus the lack of blue. Here it is:

GW Terra-quarium

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Maze of Ith

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
3 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Life from the Loam
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Wrath of God


SB:

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Glacial Chasm


The first thing you'll notice, no doubt, is the absence of the typical LD suite (Armageddon, Cataclysm, Trinisphere, Flagstones, etc.). I chose not to go this route because it's mana-intensive, and done better by Stax anyway. Instead, I opted for a package much closer to Lands.dec. Indeed, this deck resembles something of a hybrid of Lands and Aggro Loam.

I decided to run Genesis and Eternal Witness to give the deck some long-term redundancy. While I recognise that Genesis may be overkill, I really enjoy having it here precisely so that I can enjoy the benefits of redundancy against control decks.

Accordingly, I'm running a copy of Gigapede to ensure that I can put Genesis in the graveyard later on, and also to increase the deck's long-term redundancy: it has four (!) sources of creature (and other) recursion in Genesis, Life from the Loam, Gigapede, and Eternal Witness. This much redundancy makes the deck a backbreaker at all points in the game. These cards have the added advantage of giving the deck a small measure of resiliency against graveyard hate.

Beyond that, I think that most of the card choices are self-explanatory. Vinelasher Kudzu is a decent early threat that grows relatively quickly, whilst Knight of the Reliquary gets bigger faster, and can tutor up a Monastery, Maze, or (post-board) Glacial Chasm. Terravore presents a dangerous threat, and Nantuko Monastery is a solid beatstick. Finally, Solitary Confinement can always hop into the fray to save my bacon.


So this is the concept I've been pushing around on MWS recently. It seems like it has potential to be a VERY solid contendor, given its high threat density and frustrating control. I generally open games with Wasteland/Port locks, until a threat comes down. From there on in, the idea is just to grow the threats and beat for the win as soon as possible. Wrath and Confinement can act as reset buttons if need be.

I know that someone will suggest cycling lands: I agree that they would be great here, but I need help re-tooling the manabase to accomodate them--and I'm not sure that it's worth losing the manabase-hate for them, since at least Loam can feed Confinement well enough on its own.


Any thoughts/ideas? Does this seem like a viable concept?

EDIT: I'm clearly a moron. Confinement requires you to skip your draw step, so you can't dredge. So cycling lands would be required. In the meantime, I'll play something else instead. In the meantime, I'm thinking of +1 Glacial Chasm, +2 Oblivion Ring in the maindeck, and +1 Chalice of the Void, +1 Something else in the SB.

[Finn]

This looks interesting. How good has the Knight actually been for you? You could play that GW land that you can sac for a card. That would probably really help out Confinement.

[SuperBean]

Knight works really well in an Astral Slide type of deck.

[jeff8073x]

Tarmogoyf over vinelasher and maybe try to maindeck 4 chalice.

[georgjorge]

Interesting idea, especially the possibility of hiding behind a Confinement while using Knight to tutor up threats. My first impressions...

Tarmogoyf looks like it would be better than Kudzu indeed in the early and midgame, but I can see that Kudzu could be better than it looks in theory. I would maybe go with a 3-3 split between Kudzu and Goyf, cutting the Wraths, which look really strange since you run enough creatures yourself and shouldn't have big problems against Aggro. I also don't understand the defensive sideboard with Runed Halos - what do you fear that can't be solved by four Swords (drawn more often with cycling lands), Confinement and lots of big creatures? If it's for combo, then Gaddock Teeg (also good against Stax and Landstill) or Chant would be better.

The Gigapede and Genesis look kinda random as 1-ofs. Dredging into a 1-of card is not that likely, and how probable is it that you'll dredge into Gigapede while holding a Genesis? But my real problem is that if you got Loam recursion going, you don't need MORE recursion. In fact, you might be better off using your mana to cycle three additional lands and draw into a creature, rather than pay three mana and get one from the grave.


I'd play stuff like

4 Chalice (don't worry about the Swords)
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclysm (useful against both Landstill and tribal Aggro)
1 The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale

in the sideboard.


But another idea - Loam decks in general have no trouble at all playing three colors, and it seems a waste to only play two. Playing a small black splash would give you some very necessary disruption in Thoughtseize, and Confidant might or might not fit in there. It also gives you Volrath's Stronghold to fetch with Knight. Playing blue gives you the almighty Brainstorm (normally, I wouldn't ever splash just for Brainstorm, but as I said, with Loam decks it really doesn't make a difference if you play two or three colors), and maybe Compulsive Research or something like that.

[Forbiddian]

Terrarium makes sense. I don't know why you'd blend in an aquarium reference since you don't run blue. I'd call it Terrarium.


Apparently my friend ran into you recently, which is why I'm posting.

It just seems like a deck that's unbelievably metagamed against control decks with two Wrath of God thrown in and Swords to Plowshares tossed in.



...Genesis, Life from the Loam, Gigapede, and Eternal Witness. This much redundancy makes the deck a backbreaker at all points in the game. These cards have the added advantage of giving the deck a small measure of resiliency against graveyard hate.

NO! Fail analysis overload! AHH!! It really outlines the weaknesses of the deck and how you gloss over it. Those are all endgame cards. How can you say that they're good at all points in the game? They do not affect the board much (if at all) when they first come online. They're good cards, but the weakness is that they absolutely suck for the first 5+ turns of the game. You need the rest of the deck to get you to the point where Loam, Genesis, Gigapede, and Witness will break the game open. It's like running Cruel Ultimatum and being like, "This is a great card at every point in the game. It's so powerful." No, it's not. It's an endgame card. You should know better.



Vinelasher Kudzu is a decent early threat that grows relatively quickly

Again, NO! It's a terrible "early" threat and it grows extremely anemically compared to the analogs Terravore, Tarmogoyf, Countryside Crusher and KotR. Turn 2, it's a 1/1. At most it's a 3/3 on turn 3 and 5/5 on turn 4 (but more like a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 4). That's not an early game threat. It's not even an early game blocker. Tarmogoyf just goes over it and even Goblins can slice through it.

I'm beating a dead horse about the wording that you choose, but it underscores a mistake in evaluation. Your deck doesn't have early game threats. Your deck has a weakness to early-game strategies, even with blockers and defensive play, and you seem to think that Vinelasher Kudzu and Rishadan Port (and maybe a Swords) will cover your ass until Terravore comes online as a 10/10.


It seems like this deck: 1) Destroys straight control decks by having a dominant endgame.

2) Rolls over and die to most aggro.

3) Rolls over in its grave against combo of any form.


You ignore the combo matchup entirely (except for four lonely Tormod's Crypts against Ichorid in the sideboard). I guess Chalice from SB might do something, but 3 copies is not going to win you many matches when it's not even a shutdown card.



Now, that doesn't mean that you have a bad deck, but you need to understand its weaknesses before moving on and hopefully address them with your sideboard. The current sideboard really lacks direction and you provide no discussion for what I deem extremely questionable decisions like... well, every card in the entire sideboard I find really questionable.

Green and White has access to a lot of tools, from Circle of Protection Red, to Ghostly Prison, Thorn of Amethyst, Gaddock Teeg. I have no clue why you chose Runed Halo, Chalice of the Void, (the narrow) Tormod's Crypt, and Oblivion Ring as the cards to fill out your weaknesses against every non-control deck.


EDIT: Weird, apparently GJ thinks this deck beats aggro and should cut WoG and I suggested the opposite. You do run Swords, but I'll point out that your deck is strictly slower than Aggro Loam in other respects and Aggro Loam feels the need to stretch to 7 copies of Devastating Dreams to keep Aggro in check.

DD is much, much better than WoG, but some weenie check is required.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

This looks interesting. How good has the Knight actually been for you? You could play that GW land that you can sac for a card. That would probably really help out Confinement.

Generally speaking, I've preferred to see Knight over Terravore--which is a mind-boggling surprise, since I'd have thought the opposite, but there it is. The reason for this is simply that in the early game, Knight is bigger than Terravore, and generally bigger than anything else on the board. It permits a more aggressive gameplan from the get-go. Later, of course, it hangs back for a turn to fetch out Chasm if need be. The later the game gets, of course, the better Terravore's trample is.

In terms of its versatility for the deck, the Knight has been invaluable. There's definitely no question of cutting it: it's simply too good. One trick that I've been using to great effect is Wasting my own nonbasics in combat, to give the Knight +2, thereby putting it out of range of whatever nasty is blocking it. On the defensive, it can do much the same by fetching out Wasteland or a fetchland.


Tarmogoyf over vinelasher and maybe try to maindeck 4 chalice.


I'll talk about these in relation to georg's post below.





Tarmogoyf looks like it would be better than Kudzu indeed in the early and midgame, but I can see that Kudzu could be better than it looks in theory. I would maybe go with a 3-3 split between Kudzu and Goyf, cutting the Wraths, which look really strange since you run enough creatures yourself and shouldn't have big problems against Aggro.


You guys are basically right about Kudzu: it's actually quite good, but the real trouble comes when facing graveyard hate. At that point, Kudzu alone won't carry the day, and it seems as though Tarmogoyf will need to be fit in, largely in its stead. While I love playing the Kudzu, I'm not convinced even a split is really worth it. I think I'll just go with the Goyf.




I also don't understand the defensive sideboard with Runed Halos - what do you fear that can't be solved by four Swords (drawn more often with cycling lands), Confinement and lots of big creatures? If it's for combo, then Gaddock Teeg (also good against Stax and Landstill) or Chant would be better.

Excellent points. In testing, I haven't even wanted to bring in the Halos yet.



The Gigapede and Genesis look kinda random as 1-ofs. Dredging into a 1-of card is not that likely, and how probable is it that you'll dredge into Gigapede while holding a Genesis? But my real problem is that if you got Loam recursion going, you don't need MORE recursion. In fact, you might be better off using your mana to cycle three additional lands and draw into a creature, rather than pay three mana and get one from the grave.

Again, the testing I've been doing seems to confirm this.



But another idea - Loam decks in general have no trouble at all playing three colors, and it seems a waste to only play two. Playing a small black splash would give you some very necessary disruption in Thoughtseize, and Confidant might or might not fit in there. It also gives you Volrath's Stronghold to fetch with Knight. Playing blue gives you the almighty Brainstorm (normally, I wouldn't ever splash just for Brainstorm, but as I said, with Loam decks it really doesn't make a difference if you play two or three colors), and maybe Compulsive Research or something like that.

I've been toying with the idea myself. Actually, I've mostly been toying with the idea of a single Stronghold (to be used with Mox Diamond) and maybe an Urborg, Swamp, or something of the like. I'm trying to stay away from three colours just because of the frills that it tempts us (me) into, but it may well be worth it just for Stronghold. I'd like to get the G/W combination more finely tuned before attempting that, however.




Terrarium makes sense. I don't know why you'd blend in an aquarium reference since you don't run blue. I'd call it Terrarium.


Fair enough. Will amend the title to reflect that.




I'm beating a dead horse about the wording that you choose, but it underscores a mistake in evaluation. Your deck doesn't have early game threats. Your deck has a weakness to early-game strategies, even with blockers and defensive play, and you seem to think that Vinelasher Kudzu and Rishadan Port (and maybe a Swords) will cover your ass until Terravore comes online as a 10/10.


It seems like this deck: 1) Destroys straight control decks by having a dominant endgame.

2) Rolls over and die to most aggro.

3) Rolls over in its grave against combo of any form.



It's worth pointing out that since this is the new and developmental forum, the deck had very little testing behind it when I posted it. Although it has substantially more testing behind it now, it still has nowhere near what other decks I've posted (Intuition-Thresh and Pride Parade) have.

I'm not trying to be defensive by saying that: as a matter of fact, the further testing I've done since yesterday confirms absolutely everything you've said. The consequence is that I need to improve at least the aggro or the combo matchup. I'm fine with caving to one of the two if it's necessary (which it may not be), but there are definite improvements to be made.




Now, that doesn't mean that you have a bad deck, but you need to understand its weaknesses before moving on and hopefully address them with your sideboard. The current sideboard really lacks direction and you provide no discussion for what I deem extremely questionable decisions like... well, every card in the entire sideboard I find really questionable.

That's just due to the rough nature of what I am (and was) currently working with. So the only question I put to you is: what can be used to improve these matchups, and what do you think the appropriate balance is between maindeck and sideboard props to these weaknesses.


Here's what I'm currently pushing, in light of suggested improvements.


GW Terrarium

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
2 Secluded Steppe
2 Tranquil Thicket

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Life from the Loam
3 Solitary Confinement


SB:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Cataclysm
3 Chalice of the Void
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Now where do we go from here?

[Shugyosha]

After Conflux has been released I discussed something like this as a possible Legacy deck in an article (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=4618) (in german). Maybe the list I came up with helps:

Main:
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
2 Secluded Steppe
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Nantuko Monastery

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
3 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Genesis

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Armageddon
4 Life from the Loam
3 Solitary Confinement

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Choke

Its more along the lines of traditional Terrageddon. Kitchen Finks are in there to survive the initial onslaught until your guys are big and nasty and your engine is running.

[johanessen]

Why not include SurvivalotF?

1 copy of gaddok teeg in main deck would help alot and jotun

Main

Lands 24
4 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
3 Wasteland
1 Nantuko Monastery

Creatures 18
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Jotun Grunt

Spells 18
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mox Diamond
3 Life from the Loam
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened tutor

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Choke

[georgjorge]

Is the aggro matchup really that bad? You have Goyf, Swords, then big creatures in the 3cc-range, Confinement as the ultimate protection spell, all that possibly accelerated by Mox Diamond...which Aggro decks exactly do you have problems against?

Also, I just noticed the manabase. I'd say you need more cycling lands, I personally never go below six with those kind of decks, more towards seven. Chasm, basics or Monasteries all look like they could be cut down a bit.

There's also the huge problem of Relic post-board, and I'm not sure if it's worth it boarding in Grips or Needles, or just hoping to play around it and have enough ressources to fill the graveyards a second time. It makes Kudzu more attractive though :wink:.

[Forbiddian]

He has big creatures that cost 3, but on turn 3, he's quite far from getting a big creature on the board that can wall out enemy troops. There's a big difference. Glancing at the list, I thought Aggro would be a huge problem (and from my experience with Aggro Loam, I basically rely entirely on Devastating Dreams to clear the board). Nothing in Terrarium is scarier than a Goyf for aggro decks early to mid game, and no aggro deck shows up to a Legacy tournament without a way to deal with Goyf.

Also, he didn't have Goyf before recent changes and Solitary Confinement costs 2 cards/turn, so unless you have the Loam going, and until you have ~7 land in play and Loam with two cycle lands, you still won't see new material. It's hardly a solution to aggro unless you have some crazy nuts hand.

[Finn]

As I said, you are crazy not to run Horizon Canopy with Confinement.

[f|i[p]]

Aggro decks like goblins can be a problem, Ive played this type of deck,with main deck cataclysms as well as confinements, and its still a problem. If gobs opens with lackey and you don't have stp, its almost a done deal.Now your just hoping for a confinement or a mass removal tool. Taking a lot of damage early can be a pain. Vials and lackeys are a big problem. I guess its more of a problem because I play with the Rb version of gobs. Fast aggro and combo are going to be a problem. Im trying to cut the b now and see if It can work out as GW. Im currently playin main deck cataclysms and chalice. Although armageddons are nice, I remember during the tournament, I would have rather preferred cataclysms over them

[Goaswerfraiejen]

First, thanks to Shugyosha and Johanessen for the sample lists and the article: I haven't been able to give all that due consideration yet, but I will, and I'll get back to the ideas you've proposed. Also, Finn: You're right that Horizon Canopy seems like an ideal fit. I'm not sure just how it fits into the manabase yet, however, so I'm putting it on the backburner for the moment, until the other (myriad) problems have been addressed. It seems to me that aggro and graveyard hate are much more significant deficiencies than lack of Horizon Canopy, so I'm going to try to fix things one at a time.

That said, I've decided that far too many lands were being run (roundabout 31), and have cut that down to the (still quite large) number of 27. That's opened up more space for graveyard-independent threats. I also decided to cut out Port--the mana slots, I feel, can be used more efficiently with actual threats.

So here's my newest current list:


GW Terrarium

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Anurid Brushhopper
3 Exalted Angel

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Life from the Loam
4 Cataclysm
2 Solitary Confinement


SB:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip


The original list had a very serious problem with graveyard hate: it hosed Terravore, KotR (to a large extent), Tarmogoyf (well, Relic did), Nantuko Monastery, and Eternal Witness. All in all, that's the entire threat base nullified by graveyard hate. Also, LftL becomes useless, so there goes the engine. With KotR's fetching ability, I could hold out for quite some time, but it was always only a matter of time before I died, thanks to ineffectual threats.

Consequently, I've made a number of changes:


Replaced Tarmogoyf with Brushhopper. No doubt a controversial move, but I feel that the other threats here are huge enough that Tarmogoyf makes no real difference. Brushhopper, on the other hand, is large enough to stall early Tarmogoyfs, can evade Counterbalance, and evades enemy removal (and combat damage) while pumping Terravore and Knight of the Reliquary (by discarding lands/Loam). It also has zero reliance on the graveyard. Finally, Brushhopper has MASSIVE synergy with Cataclysm.

Replaced Eternal Witness with Exalted Angel. I haven't been impressed with Witness recursion: most cards don't really deserve to be recurred, and in the face of graveyard hate, you're just recurring useless cards (assuming you can recur any). Exalted Angel, on the other hand, never relies on the graveyard, can be cast fairly early, and poses a significant threat in its own right.

Replaced one Nantuko Monastery with a Treetop Village. I'm not sure if this move was necessary, but it's nice to have at least one manland that doesn't need Threshold to work. Perhaps another manland would be better, however (e.g. Mishra's Factory).

Maindecked Cataclysm. More of a half-assed attempt to give some sort of defence against swarms. I'm certainly not commited to this change over and above other possibilities. I consider this more of a temporary testing slot.



So I'm now testing this version. I'll come back when I've got more testing under my belt, but so far this plays much better in the face of graveyard hate, and that at least is a plus. Whether or not it's enough is another question, and one that I can't answer immediately. Once I've got a better sense of how this impacts the games against hate, I'll start testing against aggro and tinkering with solutions.

[georgjorge]

If you play (main or sideboard) Cataclysm/Armageddon, a Boseiju to fetch with Knight could be nice to force through that crucial sweeper against Landstill.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I played this deck in the Goyfless tournament. I faced Goblins (won), MBC (won), U-Weenie Stompy (lost), some crazy combination of Zur and Steel of the Godhead (lost), ANT-combo (lost), and drew one game. Of the two matches that I lost (other than combo), both were pretty close: the stompy deck was a little fast (and my hands weren't godly enough), and the Zur match was quite close (minus total manascrew g1). Overall, I'm very happy with the deck's performance, and think that it's a real contendor.

I've been playing it quite a bit recently, and have found that it crushes Goblins (thanks to Reliquary--if KotR can stick for a turn, fetch Tabernacle and you will probably win; alternately, Confinement-lock should win you the game eventually). Although it does well against Threshold, Merfolk, and company, Relic of Progenitus does a lot of damage. Thankfully, the printing of Qasali Pridemage means that this is now a much less significant problem. Similarly, Landstill seems like a more than fair matchup; we have manlands too, as well as Wasteland and a cycling engine, so Standstill can be quite beneficial. So too wit dreadstill, although outgrowing Colossus is also quite amusing.

For the Goyfless tournament, I opted for another Solitary Confinement and a Volrath's Stronghold; now that it's over, I'm porting this into the following 61-card (temporarily) list:

GW Terrarium

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
3 Anurid Brushhopper
3 Exalted Angel
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Life from the Loam
3 Cataclysm
3 Solitary Confinement


SB:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Purity



The sideboard is still really quite rough, obviously. The main weakness is still combo, and that's probably not going to be changing. You can possibly race a slow hand with Terravore, dealing enough damage the Ad Nauseam can't be used, but really, that's an unrealistic expectation. Purity was intended to give minor immunity to Painter decks in the Goyfless tournament, and in so doing work decently with Confinement. It's hardly a bright light, however.


That's more or less all I have to say right now. I'm going to test extensively and post detailed matchup analyses now that Pridemage is kicking around.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Hello again,

Some initial comments from playing against the deck, other than the manabase, is that you have too many big creatures that cost 3. Generally this shouldn't be a problem, but the fact that you run so many large casting cost creatures without any accel other than Mox Diamond is a bit clunky.

First off, though, the manabase just doesn't seem great. Aside from Mox Diamond, you have 13 lands that have green in them. Aside from your reactionary cards (StP, Cataclysm Confinement) and the slow Exalted, everything needs green. You can wait to hit white mana in here, but you absolutely need green mana or you can't do anything. I'm not counting tranquil thicket as a mana producer either, but for now that should be disregarded because so many people run wasteland that unless you hit that mox, you're going to have a really hard time getting green mana.

The remedy I see for this is to take out 1 or two lands for Horizon Canopy, a card that really should have been in here from the start. I think the most obvious land you should take out is Glacial Chasm. That card was barely worth the slot in the old Loam decks that ran Exploration. In your deck it just doesn't have the holding power you need. Also, since it doesn't save you from combo, it appears like giant tempo disadvantage.

The other land I suggest you take out is 1 Wasteland. Running LftL, you will always run into a Wasteland to begin waste-lock if you are dredging. 3 has always been more than enough for me in Aggro Loam decks. Horizon Canopy opens you up to both of your needed colors, and some sorely needed card advantage under a S Confinement.

Now for the creatures: You're effectively running 14 3cc creatures. While good against counter/top (except Exalted morphed), this is terribly clunky. One big flag that is raised when I look at the list is Anurid Brushhopper. A 3/4 for 3 should have lifelink or shouldn't see play in the world of Tarmogoyf. His ability doesn't even seem worth it to me unless you have a loam engine already up and running, but you can find better creatures under this situation. The major one I see would be Tarmogoyf, and I'm confused why he isn't in this deck. He helps a lot against aggro (if not killed, which can be argued for any creature), which this deck really seems to need help with. To hit the playset of goyfs, you should just take out a Terravore. Graveyard hate is common, and it sucks to see a Relic of Prog take out your fatty and your card advantage engine all in one shot. He's really good, especially with Cataclysm, but probably shouldn't be used as a playset.

Lastly, is Cataclysm better than Armageddon here? I say this because I've tried that card out before, but against decks that run 1-2 lands, Sensei's Divining Top, Goyf, and Counterbalance, it would just hurt your position usually. Armageddon, however, would be devistating, especially if followed up right away by a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I won't reply to everything immediately, since I don't have enough testing to necessarily speak appropriately to all of your points, but I can speak to the Tarmogoyf issue. Thanks for the points, and I'll be taking them all seriously.




Now for the creatures: You're effectively running 14 3cc creatures. While good against counter/top (except Exalted morphed), this is terribly clunky. One big flag that is raised when I look at the list is Anurid Brushhopper. A 3/4 for 3 should have lifelink or shouldn't see play in the world of Tarmogoyf. His ability doesn't even seem worth it to me unless you have a loam engine already up and running, but you can find better creatures under this situation. The major one I see would be Tarmogoyf, and I'm confused why he isn't in this deck. He helps a lot against aggro (if not killed, which can be argued for any creature), which this deck really seems to need help with. To hit the playset of goyfs, you should just take out a Terravore. Graveyard hate is common, and it sucks to see a Relic of Prog take out your fatty and your card advantage engine all in one shot. He's really good, especially with Cataclysm, but probably shouldn't be used as a playset.


The main problem was graveyard hate, which basically neutered everything. Tarmogoyf didn't really help that much in that respect, since he was equally neutered by Relic and company. Brushhopper, on the other hand, helps to pump Terravore and KotR, facilitates dredging Loam, and has good synergy with Cataclysm. Basically, it acts as a wall, which Tarmogoyf does slightly less well, especially given the exalted creatures that are now popping up everywhere. Now that I've got Pridemage kicking around, things might be slightly different, but I don't really see Tarmogoyf as a serious advantage. I'd rather be casting Terravore or KotR most turns. Brushopper may not be the greatest choice, but I'm not yet convinced that Goyf is any more solid in that slot. Given a choice between Goyf and just about any other creature in here, I'd rather cast the other creature; given a choice between Goyf and getting my Loam on, I again choose the latter. I realize that this is controversial, but I just don't see Tarmogoyf giving me much of an advantage, or coming down at a time when it's particularly useful.

Nonetheless, I'm fine with the idea of Brushopper and Angel being slots that are up for grabs.




Lastly, is Cataclysm better than Armageddon here? I say this because I've tried that card out before, but against decks that run 1-2 lands, Sensei's Divining Top, Goyf, and Counterbalance, it would just hurt your position usually. Armageddon, however, would be devistating, especially if followed up right away by a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.




I think it is better: the problem with the Armageddon/Tabernacle plan is that I need to have Tabernacle in my hand somehow, and I need Mox Diamond to guarantee that I can keep my creature afterwards. With Cataclysm, I can choose to KotR into Tabernacle if I can pay for my creature. Cataclysm also helps to whittle the board down on its own, whereas Armageddon can't really do so on its own.

[purlqg]

I really like this deck, Terrarium is a great name. I like the fact that you can return the brushopper when playing cataclysm but i would like to throw out another possibility.
Dauntless Escort - it protects your guys against Damnation/Wrath, Smother, Snuff Out, EE and Pernicious Deed and it removes bridges.

The cycle lands would probably be better then horizon canopy, it seems strictly worse because you aren't playing exploration.

[mujadaddy]

I played this deck in the Goyfless tournament. I faced Goblins (won), MBC (won)
Hey, that was me!

After a one-life to zero-life G1 win for Goaswerfraiejen, Goaswerfraiejen over mujadaddy, 2-1.

Firstly, let's give credit where credit is due: not MBC, but Pox :wink:

Secondly, those games were very close, except the finale where I was mana-flooded. You'll recall that I killed myself in G1 :laugh:

Thirdly, though, I do have to agree that the deck is rather good. I didn't realize that it wasn't just an aggressive version of Aggro-Loam though.

I'm not sure that I'm qualified to help tune the deck, but I'd gladly offer the across-the-table perspective, if wanted.

[purlqg]

Here's the list im testing right now:

G/W Terrarium

4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Terravore
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Dauntless Escort

4x Life from the Loam
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Cataclysm
3x Solitary Conefinement

4x Mox Diamond
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
4x Horizon Canopy
3x Wasteland
2x Nantuko Monastery
4x Forest
1x Plains
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Maze of Ith
1x The Tabernacle at Pendral Vale

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
3x Behemoth Sledge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Cataclysm

Dauntless Escort + Volrath's Stronghold for recurring protection seems pretty cool to me. He is extremely difficult to remove even with swords or path cause of his sac abbility. He might be comming back next turn with volrath's stronghold unless you can remove him afterwards.

I thought about which creature that could help with the combo match-up and came up with Ethersworn Canonist, it is actually possible to play under it because of the fact that you can get more creatures with KOTR + it lives through cataclysm if we want it to, he might give us problems when we want to play loam and a creature the same turn so im not entirely sold yet.... The alternatives ive found so far isn't exactly better, G. Teeg sucks when you wan't to play cataclysm :(

What do you guys think about sledge Sledge as a sideboard card against burn/aggro, if you could get chalice + hammer or just hammer with an early threat you should be golden. Sledge also helps with winning creature battles or racing aggro decks..

[Goaswerfraiejen]

mujadaddy: Oh yeah, Pox. I'd forgotten what it was, save that it was black.

Purlgg: Good call on Canonist, I'd completely forgotten about it. I agree, I think it's more useful than Teeg, since Teeg really only stops the win conditions, which leaves it more vulnerable to bounce or other answers.

I haven't tried the Escort yet, but I will be. It looks promising, but it won't stop StP or PtE, since those don't destroy creatures. As for Behemoth Sledge... I'm not convinced that it's necessary. But hey, if it works, then I have nothing to say against it. Against Burn, I usually just StP my Terravore for the win. :wink:

EDIT: Loxodon Hierarch would serve a similar purpose as Escort, although it does nothing to affect the early game.
EDIT 2: I've also been testing Riftstone Portal, with pleasant results. It's vulnerable to graveyard hate, however, which makes it slightly less desirable. Without Brushhopper, it's also much harder to get it in the graveyard, although I'm not above using KotR to do it. Speaking of which, there's nothing quite like the look of dismay on an opponent's face when they realize that they forgot that KotR can fetch fetchlands, Wasteland, or Chasm to pump itself by 2.

[swarm187]

I think purlgg was referring to the fact that you can sack Dauntless Escort in response to Path/Swords, then recur it the next turn, rather than having it removed from the game. The sack-ability is really irrelevant.

[swarm187]

I built this deck last night, as you've got it now, and it seems solid. On a whim, I decided to try to splash red for a few cards. the result was an AMAZINGLY fast version of what you've built already.
Honestly, I like the red splash version way more than the deck I had before. Here's the list:


4x Countryside Crusher
4x Terravore
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Birds of Paradise

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Shard Volley
4x Life From the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
2x Zuran Orb

4x Plateau
4x Savannah
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain



This is just a rough first draft, but the performance was enough to make me seriously pursue this type of build. There are some obvious omissions that might look strange, namely Solitary Confinement, cycle lands, 'Goyf, etc., but I took those out to fit in the red and it is really worth it.