Where are the Weenies?

[Sek'Kuar]

This thread is for the discussion of the lack of aggro/weenie strategies in Legacy. Historically the only weenie strategy that has seen more than a season or two's worth of play has been goblins. I'm wondering why a strategy so prevalent in other formats is so lacking in a format that has the best of all sets. With the advent of Shadowmoor/Eventide, light from within made knight weenie good, rogues have been good because of the amazing "lords" in eventide. Elves see a retarded amount of play in other formats, and blue... blue just isn't really an aggressive color, so i suppose unless there is a radical color pie shift, we won't see a good blue weenie strategy. Even Faeries dont see much play in Legacy, and they dominated other formats. Why is this? Do we have spells that disrupt weenie better than Standard and Extended? Are they just overlooked? Have we settled in a rut? Is combo just too good vs. aggro/weenie? It almost feels like this question is a microcosm of a bigger question. Why is aggro pushed aside in favor of Combo and Control? Is a question of Archetype or Format?

[MattH]

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/CSP/en-us/Card121159.jpg

[Gheizen64]

And Goyf

[JeroenC]

Elves! and Elf Survival is pretty nice. Monowhite weenie just doesn't slice the pie anymore. Merfolk is a form of U weenie.
"Pure" weenie decks are just too slow these days, and hit a wall when they meet Goyf, CB or Naught. All of which are common cards.

[Korsakow]

@MattH You can't break it down to just one point, otherwise if it just was counterbalance then i had to state: Vial >>> Balance.

I think its an accumulation of different things. I think the main reason is, that combo is to potent against aggro. It's nearly allways autoloss game1 and you can't board enough to make it significantly better. Nobody can afford to reserve 8 slots Sb for Combohate.

2cent

[Tog]

I've always a been a big fan of Red/Boros Deck Wins. If Counterbalance is that big of a problem, couldn't maindeck Duergar Hedgemage help out? There are almost always relevant artifacts to hit in Legacy.

-Tog

[leander?]

Elves! and Elf Survival is pretty nice. Monowhite weenie just doesn't slice the pie anymore. Merfolk is a form of U weenie.
"Pure" weenie decks are just too slow these days, and hit a wall when they meet Goyf, CB or Naught. All of which are common cards.
Death and Taxes likes to have a word with you.

[Maëlig]

Death and Taxes likes to have a word with you.
D&T is not exactly a "pure" weenie though (granted it's the closest competitive deck to traditional WW), not least because it takes a more control-ish and less tempo-based approach.
I would agree with the statement that CB + goyf basically killed traditional weenies. Elf survival is probably the best next-gen weenie out there, because it managed to adapt (quite well at that) to a metagame playing these two cards.

[JeroenC]

Death and Taxes likes to have a word with you.

I don't think of Death and Taxes as white weenie. Stuff like Mangara+Karakas are the kind of things you'll never find in a weenie deck. My 2 cents.

[mercenarybdu]

Counterbalance with top and everything that hinders speedy plays to keep the format in check and balance.

[GreenOne]

Red-based weenie is actually playable. Boros, Gruul and WRG (mmmh.. Naya?), Domain are all combination of colors that can (and did) actually succeed.
GRW just made Top8 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/top8decks)at the GP too.

[Shugyosha]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/shm/222.jpg

Most people seriously underrate this guy. As nearly every sufficiently large metagame around the world has a large amount of blue-based decks this guy should be a 4-off split between main and sideboard in weenie decks.

It is already done in RGw Goyfsligh and could be played in a more traditional WW shell with a :g:-splash for Shusher and Goyf as well as sideboard Grip and Choke if neccessary. In addition to the splash WW also got Path to Exile which helps the damage race.

Also Kurtis Droge's GP Chicago List (undefeated day 1) has some Weenie tendencies. Well, its more Not Quite Weenie.

[Forbiddian]

People don't underestimate Vexing Shusher, they prioritize it properly.

It's not just like: "Oh, countermagic is a problem. Ok, we can win with City of Solitude."

It's: "Oh, countermagic is a problem. We also have to win by turn 5 or Deed/Shackles/Sower/Threads/Goyf/Tombstalker/Enforcer beats us. So ok, we can't afford to play Vexing Shusher -- it's too slow."


Vexing Shusher is played in some places, but the fact is it's SOOOO slow and doesn't give you combat tricks or dodge mana screws like Vial does. It also wants more land to operate, which goes against the midgame gameplan.

Weenie decks that use Vexing Shusher to last until the mid-late game and try to deal with midgame problems almost invariably lose weenie status. And then there's no real need to run Vexing Shusher at all.


Of course, that's a bit of a simplification, but paying 1RRR for a Goblin Warchief uncounterable is not a great play.

[GreenOne]

I do believe that Shusher does have a place in zoo decks: it can complement Krosan Grip in answering Chalice and Counterbalance. Zoo has kinda problems in resolving the last key spells: an uncounterable Price of Progress wins so many games.

Also, it's not like shusher is adding R to every spell you play, it's only adding it to spells that gets countered. When your opponent plays FoW, you pay R and counter it.

[Tano]

hmmm, dont forget the Berserk stompy. Thats the fastest weenie deck and is often faster than combo, especislly when you use a ten land green build (and thats effective against counterbalance, too).
The only thing is, that berserks are expensive and they are getting more and more expensive. What a pitty :):tongue:

[Skeggi]

Weenie still exists. It's simply called 'Zoo' these days. Zoo gets the most undercosted creatures from a certain range of colors and crams them into one deck, often adding some form of control. That's where Weenie went. In fact, Goyf has the casting cost of a Weenie but the power of something quite expensive; making it basically the biggest Weenie.

I have to call BS on the Counterbalance argument. There are tons of decks running creatures with CC 1 and 2: Thresh, Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves!, Eva Green, The Rock and so on and so forth. The point is: power levels have gone up. Savannah Lions are total crap compared to the other creatures you can get for 1 mana.

Check this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13067) out.

[Shugyosha]

Of course, that's a bit of a simplification, but paying 1RRR for a Goblin Warchief uncounterable is not a great play.

Goblins is a tribal deck and is quite different from weenie decks. This thread also isn't about Vial vs X. The question was how to not get your ass handed to Balance with a Weeniedeck. Shusher is a Weenie by itself and can't be countered which is quite good as a CB countermeasure.

[mercenarybdu]

Shusher could be used more often. Yet to make it worth while, you have to have cards to defend it while on the ground.

[Finn]

I will say this: If Shusher can find its way into a couple of good decks alongside Vial it would go a long way to keeping Counterbalance (and blue in general) in check. Folks might actually consider dropping Counterbalance for lack of effectiveness. That is something I would like to see, but we a re a long way from that.

[Strawberry Dwarf]

I will say this: If Shusher can find its way into a couple of good decks alongside Vial it would go a long way to keeping Counterbalance (and blue in general) in check. Folks might actually consider dropping Counterbalance for lack of effectiveness. That is something I would like to see, but we a re a long way from that.

CB is nice tool vs combo too. The problem of true weenie decks is they are losing both vs combo AND vs combo-hate, not only CB but also vs Chalice. Maybe some version of Stax-Rebels would be viable.

[Sek'Kuar]

Since rebels were brought up, why don't rebels see play in Legacy? I remember them being busted when they first came out. What happened? Liin Sivvi is legal, after all.

[Nihil Credo]

Since rebels were brought up, why don't rebels see play in Legacy? I remember them being busted when they first came out. What happened? Liin Sivvi is legal, after all.
Rebels had two things going for them: CA-generating tutoring, and uncounterability. With Matron/Ringleader and Vial/Lackey, Goblins beat them fair and square on both counts. The best I could salvage out of that tribe was a Tier 3-4 creature-based control deck that relied on Standstill, Top, and a bunch of silver bullets.

[Korsakow]

I still hope that the developers are aware of this problem and do not just care about T2. Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg and Vexing Shusher are quite cool. Perhaps we will soon see something like.

Magus of Stiffle ;-)

:1: U

1/1

:1: , tap : Counter target activated abbility. (Or counter unless controler pays x)

Perhaps just one or two weenies with suiting abbilities may change the tides and aggro becomes more attractive again.
Lets hope for it. :-)

[FoolofaTook]

Non-tribal weenies haven't been particularly good since the card pool began to really expand with Legends. There are just too many ways to sweep and foil a creature rush to make that a solid bet as a main strategy. Goblins became dominant because the synergy among all the weenies and a couple of other cards was just so strong that they could routinely win before a sweeper or a leak-proof blocking system could be reliably deployed. Elves is following that pattern of tremendous synergy in it's successful run.

The Zoo deck linked above uses Brainstorm and Force of Will. Merfolk uses Brainstorm and Force of Will. Counterslivers uses Brainstorm and Force of Will. Without Brainstorm and Force of Will none of those decks would be competitive in the Legacy meta. Come to think of it the Zoo deck listed above only runs 14 creatures and thus is not really a weenie deck at all. It's an aggro/control deck that relies on fast beats from creatures as its primary focus of attack.

[GreenOne]

Non-tribal weenies haven't been particularly good since the card pool began to really expand with Legends. There are just too many ways to sweep and foil a creature rush to make that a solid bet as a main strategy. Goblins became dominant because the synergy among all the weenies and a couple of other cards was just so strong that they could routinely win before a sweeper or a leak-proof blocking system could be reliably deployed. Elves is following that pattern of tremendous synergy in it's successful run.

The Zoo deck linked above uses Brainstorm and Force of Will. Merfolk uses Brainstorm and Force of Will. Counterslivers uses Brainstorm and Force of Will. Without Brainstorm and Force of Will none of those decks would be competitive in the Legacy meta. Come to think of it the Zoo deck listed above only runs 14 creatures and thus is not really a weenie deck at all. It's an aggro/control deck that relies on fast beats from creatures as its primary focus of attack.

I like your analysis. IMO decks with a good number of creatures (16+) have to assimilate one of those strategies to be successful (in bold what I believe you forgot in your analysis):
- Abuse tribal sinergies (Goblin, elves... even affinity could be counted here)
- Play the Ancient Tomb+Chalice package (Faerie Stompy, DS...)
- Play some general disruption, either counters or discard (Eva Green, Merfolk...)
- Play burn (Goyf Sligh, Boros...)

It's not like the only successful aggro decks in the format gotta have FoW in them, it's just that Only(NonTribal)CreaturesAndZeroDisruption.dec cannot survive in this format.

[FoolofaTook]

I like your analysis. IMO decks with a good number of creatures (16+) have to assimilate one of those strategies to be successful (in bold what I believe you forgot in your analysis):
- Abuse tribal sinergies (Goblin, elves... even affinity could be counted here)
- Play the Ancient Tomb+Chalice package (Faerie Stompy, DS...)
- Play some general disruption, either counters or discard (Eva Green, Merfolk...)
- Play burn (Goyf Sligh, Boros...)

It's not like the only successful aggro decks in the format gotta have FoW in them, it's just that Only(NonTribal)CreaturesAndZeroDisruption.dec cannot survive in this format.

Good points. The other deck that we don't think of as a weenies deck but that fits the pattern is GBw Survival.

[cane]

I still hope that the developers are aware of this problem and do not just care about T2. Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg and Vexing Shusher are quite cool. Perhaps we will soon see something like.

Magus of Stiffle ;-)

:1: U

1/1

:1: , tap : Counter target activated abbility. (Or counter unless controler pays x)

Perhaps just one or two weenies with suiting abbilities may change the tides and aggro becomes more attractive again.
Lets hope for it. :-)

Azorius Guildmage