[Premium Article] Innovations - Blame it on the Counterbalance

[Fons]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17205_Innovations_Blame_it_on_the_Counterbalance.html

Mainly about standard but with a talk about the GP after.

Natural Balance
Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Empyrial Archangel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wall Of Roots

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Intuition
4 Swords To Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus

Sorceries
1 Life From The Loam
3 Natural Order

Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

Basic Snow Lands
1 Snow-covered Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Savannah
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor


Sideboard:

2 Chalice Of The Void
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Propaganda
1 Threads Of Disloyalty
4 Krosan Grip
1 Academy Ruins

[C.P.]

If you own Sensei’s Divining Tops and only play them in Legacy, I would strongly consider selling them ASAP. I predict Sensei’s Divining Top will be banned later this month when they make the requisite announcements. It is certainly the best, and it warps the format, but it is also extremely undesirable when it comes to the time constraints. Look how many unintentional draws there were.

Wow. What's with all this musings about banning the top? He makes the second pro this week.

[jakolhops]

Idk if you will come back and read these forums at all, but if they ban top....What will stand in the face of combo? Top is slow and very powerfull, but it is beatable by most decks if played against correctly. Combo just wrecks most decks and top keeps combo in check.

[Fons]

I sent Chapin a message asking that same question I will post if I get a reply

[rleader]

Banning top would also hurt edge decks like Quinn (I really don't think Scrying Sheets + Snowcovered Forests + Mirri's Guile is quite the same engine), which would do a disservice to the format.

I don't remember anyone even playing top before counterbalance (brainstorm/predict/etc. were enough and now there's ponder), but that might just be because legacy people are stupid and it took the pros to realize how awesome it is. Or something.

[undone]

The thing is under normal players control top is perfectly fine, its not excessive. But the problem is that the pros play nearly flawless (they definately make errors but not as big of them) and top is very skill intensive. Top doesnt need to be banned, but it might be because the card creates unintentional draws more than just about any other card aside from MABY standstill.

Also UGr and UGb thresh along with fish are all able to beat combo it just limits combos bad matchups. Although combo has a mediocer/bad matchup against

4 Brainstorm
4 goyf
4 force
4 daze

Without adding another card to the mix that probably makes you near 50/50 with combo.

Decks beat counter top, landstill beats counter top. I agree counter top is probably the single strongest control soft lock in the format as both are awsome by themselves. Banning top isnt unreasonable, but it isnt needed like some believe.

Also predictions if it gets banned

UGR UGB threshold meat hooks and hanni fish will rise, along with landstill boarding 8 chant effects.

EDIT: Im an idiot. Solidaridy would be the best deck, ignore above as they would just play something like white for chant to beat adnauseam because that would be the only match they MIGHT lose.

Banning top is a bad idea.

[emidln]

Top only creates draws when players don't know their decks well and are making decisions slowly or they are intentionally slow-playing. Just like Brainstorming, Pondering, or Tutoring, you should know your deck well enough to know what helps you and how it helps you before you ever go into the action.

[ansset]

Completely agree with Undone's edit: Solidarity could destroy Red Thresh, which had Stifles, Dazes, and Forces. Its poor matchup was White Thresh with maindeck Meddling Mages, and it could still beat that.

Personally, I would be okay with either eventuality, because I enjoy playing David Gearhart decks regardless. Playing Uw Solidarity would be pretty sick, though.

I can see Solidarity getting matched closely by a Dark Ritual aggro deck, though. Hymn was never great to see on the stack when holding cantrips and lands.

[undone]

Completely agree with Undone's edit: Solidarity could destroy Red Thresh, which had Stifles, Dazes, and Forces. Its poor matchup was White Thresh with maindeck Meddling Mages, and it could still beat that.

Personally, I would be okay with either eventuality, because I enjoy playing David Gearhart decks regardless. Playing Uw Solidarity would be pretty sick, though.

I can see Solidarity getting matched closely by a Dark Ritual aggro deck, though. Hymn was never great to see on the stack when holding cantrips and lands.

When I finished posting I was thinking about tendrils combo. It definately isnt a hard match for UGR and UGB thresh or even team america. But without counterbalance I dont see how kill you in responce has a bad matchup, and if its just black cards 4 divert or 4 disrupt in the board MORE than make up for its TINY corner case bad matchup and 4 chant wins the combo matchup along side your 4 FOW. UW also gives you STP as a Cunning target.

I would not be ok with this because solidarity beats every deck in the format aside from, you guessed it counter top.

Wizards would have to ban reset and LED when they banned top to balance the format or else... we would be in a format where no deck could beat the combo decks consistentaly. Its already hard for counter top decks to beat combo more than 55/45 or 60/40 without counter top to force a 2 turn clock it will swing drasticaly.

[Fons]

I hope to god they don't ban reset

[C.P.]

Wizards would have to ban reset and LED when they banned top to balance the format or else... we would be in a format where no deck could beat the combo decks consistentaly. Its already hard for counter top decks to beat combo more than 55/45 or 60/40 without counter top to force a 2 turn clock it will swing drasticaly.

You've got to be kidding. LED, I may buy after stepping about 10 steps back, but, Reset? It has been a while since Solidarity was actually viable option in the metagame, and that was even before Counter/Top became popular. The deck was just too slow.

There are other means of beating combo other than Counter/Top. If anything, top's banning should be questioned in terms of tournament play and its effect on Time in the round, not its power level.

[Shtriga]

Maybe I can't recall that far, but when I got into legacy right after GP:Columbus, top wasn't as widespread as it is nowadays (or am I mistaken?). And apart from flash, the format wasn't being completely dominated by combo.

[SuperBean]

I did see Chapin's unfortunate 3 matches that he had at Grand Prix: Chicago, but I think banning Top is just a step too far. I really think Chapin is talking out of anger here due to his loosing streak at the GP.

[TheLion]

Maybe I can't recall that far, but when I got into legacy right after GP:Columbus, top wasn't as widespread as it is nowadays (or am I mistaken?). And apart from flash, the format wasn't being completely dominated by combo.

Yes, I don't get it either. Storm combo is around since... well Storm was introduced in 2002. Counterbalance's popularity startetd in 2007.
And I can't remember that Storm Combo was the only played deck in those 5 years (even if Legacy has only existed since 2005).
In the times before Counterbalance was printed, rather Aggro (Goblins) was the dominating part in the format. So why do people fear, that Combo decks will ruin the format, if CB/Top is unplayable?

I always thought and read, that Force of Will "is the glue that keeps the format together".

[Whit3 Ghost]

Yes, I don't get it either. Storm combo is around since... well Storm was introduced in 2002. Counterbalance's popularity startetd in 2007.
And I can't remember that Storm Combo was the only played deck in those 5 years (even if has Legacy only existed since 2005).
In the times before Counterbalance was printed, rather Aggro (Goblins) was the dominating part in the format. So why do people fear, that Combo decks will ruin the format, if CB/Top is unplayable?

I always thought and read, that Force of Will "is the glue that keeps the format together".
Tendrils wasn't good until ETW and red accel got printed and although it isn't played much now, it was the catalyst for modern Tendrils combo.

[Shtriga]

Haven't the combo decks been straying away from ETW lately? I can get the red mana accel though.

[SuperBean]

Not at all, T.E.S and Belcher still use ETW frequently.

[undone]

Cards that have always had to fight against counter top.

Ad nauseam.

This card is a little too consistent without counter top around to wreck it.

What beats solidaridy
Sui
Faster combo

Sui isnt able to keep it down by itself as island drawing a divert or disrupt (or 2) pretty much scoops up thier day and a chant or soon to be silance fixes the problem of the combo matchup. At that point there is not any real bad matchups especialy since cryptic makes it a hard turn 4 clock or lose

My point is that cards have been printed since than that change things rather drasticaly.

[Isamaru]

Innovations? When was the last time Patrick Chapin did something innovative? Sure, he may be an excellent strategist, but "innovation" is a really strong word.

[Jak]

Innovations? When was the last time Patrick Chapin did something innovative? Sure, he may be an excellent strategist, but "innovation" is a really strong word.

It is just the name of his article...

I wouldn't mind Top being banned; it's boring.

[URABAHN]

Wow. What's with all this musings about banning the top? He makes the second pro this week.

Who else said Top's getting the axe? I don't have access to SCG Premium.

Here's the original Bill Stark article on the SDT banning (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/2)


Extended

For many readers, the biggest surprise to come out of the recent announcement was the decision to ban Sensei’s Divining Top in Extended. Making the decision to remove a card from an environment completely is never something taken lightly, and this time was no exception. Sensei's Divining Top caught the eye of Organized Play as being a potential problem during the Qualifier season for Pro Tour–Hollywood, but ultimately the decision was to monitor Top’s performance through the season and reconvene on the matter later in the year.
Sensei's Divining Top

Ultimately Top 8s throughout the season were littered with the one-cost artifact either in conjunction with Counterbalance to lock opponents out of games, Trinket Mage to be found reliably, or (and usually in addition to) Onslaught’s sac-lands to allow players to shuffle away cards they didn’t wish to draw while peeking at a fresh set of three cards. Such a pervasive performance during a single season created a different problem as well: it made tournaments take too much time.

The constant activating of Divining Top bogs games down, which ultimately leads to an increase in the number of matches that go to time and beyond, which in turn leads to tournaments running much longer than they have historically. Furthermore, the Top encourages players to maximize the number of shuffle effects they play in a deck and the constant shuffling, cutting, presenting to an opponent to repeat the process, and then continuation of a turn exacerbated the situation. In the past the DCI has banned such cards on those grounds alone (Shahrazad is a good example of this, with Land Tax and Thawing Glaciers also having been banned for similar reasons) but in conjunction with the Top’s popularity during the last Extended PTQ season, the decision was to ban the card from the format it was harming.

Can the same be said of SDT in Legacy? I wasn't there, I don't know if the Rounds took more time and I don't know if the number of Draws increased. I think only cdr and Anusien can tell tell us.

[beastman]

Is everybody else missing something, or is it me being slow? Counterbalance-Top did not become popular until after Columbus. TES was not played very much before then because it was widely accepted that solidarity was the stronger, more consistent combo deck. There was a time a little while before Columbus when IGGY pop gained huge popularity, due to the fact that it outraced solidarity, and could play around all the thresh hate. Since then, Countertop decks have dominated the format, owing to A) The two card combo pulls combo decks apart limb from limb, and B) The printing of tarmagoyf gave thresh and other decks of that sort the last piece of the goblin puzzle. Recently, with the printing of the card Ad Nauseum, combo has started to produce solid results once again. Keep in mind that many of these new top 8s are through fields with at least a 25% metagame of countertop decks. Now envision a format which is devoid of the countertop lock! Ad Nauseum WILL become the one and only tier 1 deck. Regardless of counterspell backup, a solid tendrils player has a mix of chants, duresses, and pure speed at their disposal that will leave most other players in the dust. This discussion of sui black being a bad matchup for ANT is laughable. The ability to rip a mystical into discard proof nauseum, or just rip the card itself means that hand hate is no longer going to be enough. I have other arguments about not banning top, such as, have the answers sb, dont be retarded, and countertop isnt that tough. K Grip is most likely the most common SB card out there, learn to use it right, and you'll be alright.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the point isn't that countertop is broken, it's that top is. SDT is an incredibly powerful card. Especially when paired with shuffle effects. It's ability to create a soft counter-lock is only scratching the surface of the card. I run it in Landstill, it's ability to smooth draws is amazing. You've seen the highlander sideboard Nassif was running, do you think he'd have felt confidant in being able to pull the correct version of any given effect (disenchant, etc.) out of his deck if he didn't have the ability to view large swaths of library via top and fetches/ponder?

Now I don't think it's worth banning, but long before I went to Chicago, I had already told my roomate that I was rating Top's power as slightly behind that of Goblin Lackey. It's an incredibly powerful card. I don't think it's powerful enough to see a Legacy banhammer, but despite having never played the format, I'm not at all shocked that it got banned in Extended. The card is tits.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've played Top in three non-blue control decks. Frankly, I'd rather they ban the half of the combo that's useless by itself (that would be Counterbalance), if anything.

Actually, I'd rather they ban Tarmogoyf, still. Counterbalance itself, along with Chalice and to a lesser extent Deed, provide incentives to vary the mana curve in a format heavy with potent 1/2 drops, and is probably healthy to the format. Tarmogoyf is just broken in everything that splashes green and obsoletes any other creature that costs less than five mana, generally.

[Illuvator Brightstar]

It's fairly telling that you can, at this point, nearly transplant Bill Stark's reasoning on top in extended directly to legacy with very few word changes. Top is both pervasive and bogs the game down. When you combine these two things, you reach a point where rounds just plain take too long. Not to mention the power level argument.

As to the discussion of "you can't ban it because it's what holds combo in check..." this isn't the type of things that the DCI considers when banning cards. If Ad Nauseum is degenerate, and the only thing holding one degenerate combo in check is another degenerate combo, you have two problems, and the solution is never to let both stay in.

At this point, it would be premature to ban ad nauseum (obviously, even real discussion on the subject is probably premature), but I wouldn't put it past them to axe the top.

[dahcmai]

I took 4 tops to Chicago and have been playing them long enough already to have a four foils of it. I agree.

It does take a lot of time to play it correctly. You really need to think about each card in that stack and predict what you will need two turns from now. I was actually complaining to Pat about my deck I took because people would stall me out realizing that all they had to do was win one game and take me to game 3 no matter what and then at worst I would draw because I couldn't win fast enough and they could if they had the upper hand. That or I was giving people way too much credit for taking a long time to play.

I play fast and always have, but Top decks naturally take a bit longer because of the last minute "check the top cards" each and every turn.

I kind of expect it to be honest. It's slow, not broken.

[mercenarybdu]

Top doesn't need to be eliminated here.

I take less than two minutes the most just to use the top to manipulate the next three cards over the five-ten minutes most pros take to rearrange the next three.

It's just the Pros over exagerating about how "overpowering it is", when they haven't ventured 90 feet deep into rest of the workings of the format (except for the very few who have).

[BreathWeapon]

4 Brainstorm
4 goyf
4 force
4 daze

Without adding another card to the mix that probably makes you near 50/50 with combo.



You must be joking, because 4xOrim's Chant and 4xSilence or Duress and Vexing Shusher would totally wreck you. Control or aggro-control wont consistently beat combo with out permanent hate, I'll personally guarantee it.

[Toad]

I take less than two minutes the most just to use the top to manipulate the next three cards
Two minutes is seriously extremely long, especially if these two minutes occur every turn, or multiple times a turn if a fetchland is involved in the process. A two minute Top falls under slow play already.

In a regular match, we can assume that each player should be able to use 25 minutes of the clock, possibly split into 3 games. In Top mirrors, where everyone has 4 Tops, we can safely assume that at least one player will drop an early Top, and use it at least once a turn. If games last 10 turns, Top will be used 30 times during the match. A 30 seconds Top will eat 15 minutes, or a third of the alloted time over the course of the match. This is for a single card only.

The impact of Top on unintentionnal draws is obvious.

[Pinder]

Why are people assuming that using Top takes forever? I use Top all the time, and I don't usually look at the top 3 for more than 10 seconds or so, tops. And if I'm topping end of turn, it usually only takes me 2 or 3 seconds to decide how I want them ordered.

[Benie Bederios]

Why are people assuming that using Top takes forever? I use Top all the time, and I don't usually look at the top 3 for more than 10 seconds or so, tops. And if I'm topping end of turn, it usually only takes me 2 or 3 seconds to decide how I want them ordered.

True... But you can take 30 seconds for a top and use it 2/3 times a turn. If you win G1 with a deck playing top and have 15 minutes left, it isn't that hard to go to time G2 with Top out. That means 30 times using top in like 15 turns. Considering the other player takes some time for his turns too, it's easy to draw G2. I thought it was a part of the reason Sharazard was banned. First the game needed a second table, but I have seen Scepter Chant players after winning G1 boarding in 4 Sharazard and stalled and draw G2.

BB

[Toad]

Top does not necessarily take forever. Nevertheless, even if Top is handled very fast, a couple seconds every turn, often multiple times a turn if paired with fetchlands or Counterbalance, adds up very fast. Furthermore, Top is often paired with shufflers (fetchlands) or tutor effects (Trinket Mage), which also add dead time to the game.

Banning Counterbalance would obviously have no impact here, since people would still play Top regardless (see the BGW disruption deck in the Top8 for example, with 3 Top).

[Bahamuth]

What beats solidaridy
Sui
Faster combo



I really don't see where the consensus that faster combo beats Solidarity comes from. If there's one matchup I have tested a lot, it's Solidarity vs. TES and ANT, and seriously, it's probably just 50/50. Solidarity loses to Sui, but it's not completely unwinnable.

It's really not true that Solidarity has a very positive match against Red Thresh. The matchup is really difficult, because the tempo advantage the deck gains alone is sometimes enough to win. Add in FoW and Spell Snare, and it's really pretty though.

Also, Solidarity occasionally loses to Goblins, which combines SB hate with a fast clock. It also loses to Ichorid, except for the situations where the Ichorid player is too slow, or the Solidarity player get's lucky enough to buy some turns with an Echoing Truth.

Solidarity was a pretty bad deck even before Counterbalance. Banning Top will make it better, sure, but the deck that would be really over the top is ANT.

[Phoenix Ignition]

So many fire and brimstone "BEWARE THE COMBO" comments in this thread. I fail to see anyone mentioning merfolk, who have an incredible game against combo and a decent one against countertop. Wasteland + FoW + 3Daze + 4 Cursecatcher +3 Stifle absolutely wreck combo, no CB + Top needed. I think we'd have to check whether solidarity really does destroy the format without it, but honestly the number of sui decks that could be playable once CB top was banned would be so much fun to see.

I agree with IBA though, if you banned goyf then I think the format would be much more balanced and enjoyable since every other 1-4cc creature would be worth playing again. Flametongue Kavu, Loxodon Hierarch, heck, even Troll Ascetic might see some play again, but as it is they are just chump blockers to the 2cc power of goyf.

Also, it would probably require people to vary their ccs enough that countertop wouldn't be as powerful. Right now everyone's stuck on 1 or 2 because if you don't have a quick answer to goyf you die... no questions asked. Making a 3cc or 4cc creature be the most powerful in the format would significantly screw over counter-top in almost every deck that uses it.

[SpikeyMikey]

Top does not necessarily take forever. Nevertheless, even if Top is handled very fast, a couple seconds every turn, often multiple times a turn if paired with fetchlands or Counterbalance, adds up very fast. Furthermore, Top is often paired with shufflers (fetchlands) or tutor effects (Trinket Mage), which also add dead time to the game.

Banning Counterbalance would obviously have no impact here, since people would still play Top regardless (see the BGW disruption deck in the Top8 for example, with 3 Top).

Also, all the people saying "top only takes *me* a few seconds" need to remember that *you* are not playing at a professional level and *you* are probably not thinking as far ahead as Chapin is. You'll never run to time playing a few matches with a friend, but when you're in a high-stakes tournament where your opponent is likely to call a judge on you for any misplay, suddenly you start taking a little more time and paying a little more attention to what you're doing.

[BreathWeapon]

So many fire and brimstone "BEWARE THE COMBO" comments in this thread. I fail to see anyone mentioning merfolk, who have an incredible game against combo and a decent one against countertop. Wasteland + FoW + 3Daze + 4 Cursecatcher +3 Stifle absolutely wreck combo, no CB + Top needed. I think we'd have to check whether solidarity really does destroy the format without it, but honestly the number of sui decks that could be playable once CB top was banned would be so much fun to see.
.

I couldn't agree more, it's not as if there aren't replacements for Balance/Top in the metagame vs combo; Gaddok Teeg, Meddling Mage, Voidmage Apprentice and Null Rod all do a pretty damn good job of stopping combo. Banning Balance/Top wont send combo to the front, it'll just force control and aggro-control to run specific anti-combo counter measures instead of a card that just counters everything.

Also, lol @ Solidarity coming back, it's barely 50/50 vs Goblins and Team America would eat that deck alive.

[C.P.]

Also, lol @ Solidarity coming back, it's barely 50/50 vs Goblins and Team America would eat that deck alive.

QFT. The deck is bad and you should feel bad. It was waning off the metagame long before CB/Top was popular, the deck was already on the verge of being too slow.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I couldn't agree more, it's not as if there aren't replacements for Balance/Top in the metagame vs combo; Gaddok Teeg, Meddling Mage, Voidmage Apprentice and Null Rod all do a pretty damn good job of stopping combo. Banning Balance/Top wont send combo to the front, it'll just force control and aggro-control to run specific anti-combo counter measures instead of a card that just counters everything.


Oh, and I think everyone is forgetting to mention that banning SDT opens up Eight!!! slots in everyone's deck that runs it. If you think that combo is going to be that huge of a problem, you have 8 slots to deal with it. I dunno, I would be excited to see how the 8 slots got filled... maybe it would be counterspells or Spell Snares, but it could open up a lot of new options.

[C.P.]

Who else said Top's getting the axe? I don't have access to SCG Premium.

It was Manuel Bucher. Go to thread about his article. I quoted the line where he recommends the banning.

[matelml]

I couldn't agree more, it's not as if there aren't replacements for Balance/Top in the metagame vs combo; Gaddok Teeg, Meddling Mage, Voidmage Apprentice and Null Rod all do a pretty damn good job of stopping combo. Banning Balance/Top wont send combo to the front, it'll just force control and aggro-control to run specific anti-combo counter measures instead of a card that just counters everything.

Also, lol @ Solidarity coming back, it's barely 50/50 vs Goblins and Team America would eat that deck alive.

Voidmage Apprentice? WTF that card sucks. Gaddock Teeg is pretty bad in a deck that runs FoW, also Null Rod doesn't seem like maindeck material.

[Bahamuth]

QFT. The deck is bad and you should feel bad. It was waning off the metagame long before CB/Top was popular, the deck was already on the verge of being too slow.


Sheesh... Being too slow in the current meta is of no concern at all. Solidarity is probably just a little slower than DDFT. Do you consider that a bad deck? Speed has absolutely nothing to do with it. Stop seeing every combo deck in a speed perspective. Solidarity could probably be faster than it is now, but we chose not to, because it's the most resillient in this form.
The only decks that can reliable outrace me are pure aggro decks and combo. I have a solid plan against combo undoubtly, and I am pretty sure my matchup against aggro is mostly positive.

I feel by no means bad when playing this deck at all, because this deck can win any match, as long as the pilot doesn't scrub out and you're not eaten by bad luck. I can beat Dreadstill and Balanced Thresh just as well and probably better than both TES and ANT (we've been testing the matchups extensively, and we were using good lists and good palyers).

I also am not eaten alive by Team America, since the deck doesn't actually have that much means of putting up a clock at all. The deck barely disrupts my hand, and I'm unaffected by Wasteland, making their mana denial plan much worse.

I'm sorry I'm being defensive here, but I think you're thinking way too bad of Solidarity. I consider the deck tier 2 easily. It doesn't show any numbers because no one is willing to play it, since you can win with other decks that are much easier to play.

[C.P.]

I'm sorry I'm being defensive here, but I think you're thinking way too bad of Solidarity. I consider the deck tier 2 easily. It doesn't show any numbers because no one is willing to play it, since you can win with other decks that are much easier to play.

Sorry If I sounded dismissing and arrogant. I did not mean it, and I like the deck a lot. However, I still have to admit that the deck is not reliably fast enough ot race aggro with little bit of disruption, and have not gained much(except Command) since when it was showing in numbers. My point is that it is not going to overun everything ever like some people in this thread claims, even without Counterblance of the way.

[emidln]

Speed with a deck like Solidarity or even my DDFT is really hard to judge. DDFT could be built to consistently combo turn 2 with very rare turn 3s. Why don't I do that? I like beating blue decks every once in awhile. DDFT uses the same strategy as Solidarity in the face of hate: wait until either you are virtually guaranteed a successful combo turn or until the last possible moment so as to increase the cards drawn (and consequently the chance of a successful combo turn). Solidarity could be sped up to win on turn 3 frequently (I've seen and played lists that do so) but that makes it terrible against most of the hate that is commonly played. When decks pack such powerful anti-hate like Orim's Chant or counterspells of their own (Pyroblast, Force of Will, Remand) they can generally afford to to wait longer even knowing their opponent is drawing more hate (this is the game that FT and Solidarity players take). I usually refer to this as the life buffer effect where we combo players will wait until we are at the very lowest life totals to combo, trading our life points for extra land drops, cards drawn, and untap steps to pay for card quality effects. This strategy is what makes playing against either deck such a scary proposition for blue decks without a fast clock.

I've long argued that a combo deck only needs to be fast enough to end the game. Some decks don't try to dictate the pace of the game and Solidarity falls neatly into that category. In Chicago, I went off at least 7 times turn 1 with Ad Nauseam against an unknown opp game 1 and started off the match 0-1 due to Force of Will. Speed wasn't much good in chicago, and was in fact far worse than a slow lumbering deck with a ton of lands and a high cantrip count. As long as Solidarity is fast enough for skilled pilots to get the W, the actual methodology or turn count doesn't matter. If you won because you went infinite with Turnabout off Ill-Gotten Gains turn 2 and turn 3 or you won after going down to 1 life against Landstill on turn 17 you still get 3 points. The primary reason Solidarity was a deck to beat for so long wasn't due to any inherent speed advantage it had over other decks (it was slower than Zoo, Nausea, Iggy Pop, and Belcher) but due to raw power and flexibility that granted dedicated pilots the ability to adapt to each opponent. The only reason Solidarity has dropped off is because it's been a lot easier to win with other decks -- the deck hasn't lost any of its raw power or flexibility.

[BreathWeapon]

The problem with the combo-control mentality is that it fails to consider the risks of going off vs the risks of going off protected vs the risks of getting "imprisoned." Speed has never been the issue vs control, speed is the issue vs prison, and unfortunately Balance/Top has essentially turned control into neo-Stax vs combo.

@mateml

I meant Voidmage Prodigy, which is pretty awesome when you're running Spellstutter Sprite etc., you have no idea how much it sucks to see Voidmage Prodigy as combo ...

[Volt]

Good article!

I've been making the argument for months that Top should be banned.

[Nightmare]

Good article!

I've been making the argument for months that Top should be banned.

And you've been wrong for months, too! :tongue:

[undone]

Top doesnt need to be banned... but it might be. I agree there is some truth to this but it isnt a card built to INTENTIONALY draw the game like our banned in vintage card.:rolleyes: This has a direct perpose and is prehaps too strong for legacy. I dont personaly think it is but still.


You must be joking, because 4xOrim's Chant and 4xSilence or Duress and Vexing Shusher would totally wreck you. Control or aggro-control wont consistently beat combo with out permanent hate, I'll personally guarantee it.

The only needed permenant hate is 4 goyf and 4 goose. Other than that no permenants are needed as tempo thresh has a very good MU vs them. Wastelands help though.



BreathWeapon The problem with the combo-control mentality is that it fails to consider the risks of going off vs the risks of going off protected vs the risks of getting "imprisoned." Speed has never been the issue vs control, speed is the issue vs prison, and unfortunately Balance/Top has essentially turned control into neo-Stax vs combo.

O.O I have had an amazing matchup vs dragon stompy with solidaridy, I dont know what your talking about. Between remand, FOW, and cunning wish -> rebuild the match is very much in your favor. The only "Imprisonment" you have is counter top as not teeg, MM, or cannonist is good enough to stop the deck when its ready and not dead. And if your fast enough to clock it, your not disruptive enough.

[Bahamuth]

Emidln exactly said what I meant. Thank you.


The problem with the combo-control mentality is that it fails to consider the risks of going off vs the risks of going off protected vs the risks of getting "imprisoned." Speed has never been the issue vs control, speed is the issue vs prison, and unfortunately Balance/Top has essentially turned control into neo-Stax vs combo.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Solidarity is a typical combo-control deck. We define the deck as such because we know the deck's end-game is much stronger than most other decks.
Control is all about having answers, and Solidarity essentially trades some of these answers, to creatures for example like regular control lists, for being able to win earlier.
If Counterbalance is an issue for our win, we naturally need to answer it. Solidarity and DDFT are both very capable of doing this (Solidarity has 2 Command, 4 FoW and 3 Wish and DDFT has a combination of Duress, Pyroblast and Grips).
I don't see why being prisoned is a problem at all. The only 2 forms of prison I know off are Stax (and stuff like Dragon Stompy) and CB/Top. Solidarity can easily handle the former because of Rebuild SB and FoW & Remand to slow the clock (respectively Geddon and Stack, and the creatures). We have a decent answer to CB, but it's certainly not enough to turn the matchup into a positive one.


Sorry If I sounded dismissing and arrogant. I did not mean it, and I like the deck a lot. However, I still have to admit that the deck is not reliably fast enough ot race aggro with little bit of disruption, and have not gained much(except Command) since when it was showing in numbers. My point is that it is not going to overun everything ever like some people in this thread claims, even without Counterblance of the way.

You're right. Solidarity is quite a lot like Thresh in that sense. In reality Solidarity has a fair chance against most of the field, but the matchups aren't impressively in your favour (except for some really rare situations like 43.land or whatever). The same holds true for Thresh, which has a very decent matchup against most of the field, and can basically win every game.
It's just that many decks claim to have a positive Thresh matchup while they don't, while some Solidarity players claim they have a good matchup vs. other decks, while it doesn't. It's a shame theres a big consensus living amongst Legacy players that Solidarity is completely unplayable nowadays.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Banning SDT makes the format less interesting because nothing fulfills a similar role. Banning Counterbalance might make the format slightly more interesting, but it also might encourage people to break their mana curve at 1 and 2.

Banning Tarmogoyf would make the format much more interesting because there's an entire slew of these things called "creatures" that could replace it to different function in different decks.

[Black Rain]

vexing shusher > counterbalnce/top

Come on, man. Put some substance into your post. This ain't the WoW forums.

-PR

[Forbiddian]

Pat's bitter because he scrubbed out early and looked like a buffoon in the feature match. Big miscall by the judge in his favor (twice) that required being an asshole even to ask a judge and he still lost 0-2.


But the data do NOT support a ban on sensei's diving top.

I'm sure Wizards has more data to look at, but bottom line: there were only 8 Counterbalances and 11 Tops in the T8. If you ban Top on being too powerful, you have to ban Brainstorm, Force of Will, Bob, and certainly Tarmogoyf (which was twice as common in T8 play).

The only reason anybody is questioning the ban on Top is that the Wizards writers clumped Counterbalance/Top into one deck and then pointed out that there were 19 copies of it on Day 2 (and 2 made the T8). Anything with Counterbalance/Top got clumped together and bam, "Counterbalance/Top dominated the tournament."

There are decks that run Progenitus and NO, others that run Nimble Mongoose, and others that run even slower stuff like Sower of Temptation (just to name three). They play so differently that equating them just on Counterbalance/Top is a big mistake.

That would be like if you clumped everything together and said, "Tarmogoyf Aggro." Or clumped everything together and said, "Aether Vial Aggro."

Even if you'd just clumped together Tribal, there were more Goblins+Merfolk (and a few Faeries I think) than Counterbalance/Top decks.




I guess people are complaining because CB/Top mirrors are so boring, but a (huge) part of the boredom is that Tarmogoyf counters Tarmogoyf, preventing attacks. And Goyf+anything makes swinging with any Goyf not profitable.

Not that I think Goyf should be banned -- I don't. I just think that Top should not be banned and I'm pointing out that Goyf is much more guilty than Top in every single category.

[Volt]

Fine. Ban Tarmogoyf, too. It is a pretty stupid card, no matter what the fuck any of you people say. The reason so many people like it is because it makes design choices easier. Hmm... Now, what do I do for a win condition in my otherwise slow-ass control deck? I know, I'll just throw 4 Tarmogoyfs in! Boom, now it's a good deck! And you know what, my aggro-control deck never needed Tarmogoyf before, but what the hell, it's so fucking good I just gotsta take out those Werebears to make room for 'em! Yay! Legacy is so simple now! Thanks, Wizards!

Back to SDT... I've noticed that most of the arguments against banning SDT tend to center around the power level of the card, which is continually downplayed by those same people. I'm not sure I buy the whole "Sure, it's good, but it's not even as powerful as Brainstorm" argument, but that's not the point. The point is that SDT is a huge time-sucker. Matches get drawn because of SDT. That's a perfectly valid reason for banning a card.

[rleader]

Excellent points about Goyf.


I guess people are complaining because CB/Top mirrors are so boring,

And shouldn't that be the strength of legacy?:

There are boring mirrors in just about every format (Dralnu, anyone?), but in legacy the tier 1.x-2 decks are generally competitive enough that you're not a complete idiot for trying them. You can choose to give up a few percentage points for sanity if that's a big issue for you. And if it's not, you can try to eke out better topping than your opponents. Isn't that satisfactory for everyone?

Everyone knows that legacy people are nuts about their "pet decks" as if it's a bad thing (and yeah, I don't think it's a good thing that SCG writers tend to agree that it's a bad thing even as they take lumps from the pros and their sycophants from "real formats"). But hey, Enchantress -- or what have you -- can still put up wins. Sure, any deck that can play brainstorm+ponder+top is going to be safer for a 15 round tournament because it doesn't matter as much what order your deck winds up in (and doesn't generally have to mulligan unless facing combo or a specific threat).

But at least in Legacy people have that option. Show up at a FNM with something more than 10% left or right of center (as agreed upon by the last PT T8) and you'll be crust on people's shoes by the time you're done.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

By the time argument, we'd ban Standstill, Moat, and Pernicious Deed.

Hell, if you really wanted to save time and shake up the format, you could ban fetchlands. Now that would fuck things up as we know them.

Although why that's a goal with what is, by all accounts, a very healthy and varied format, I dunno. Again, the only change I can think of that would actually increase diversity or make the format more interesting would be banning Goyf, or maybe unbanning a few cards. (actually, I think almost all the combo cards on the banned list could come off, but that's just me).

[Volt]

By the time argument, we'd ban Standstill, Moat, and Pernicious Deed.

Nah, I don't buy that. While those cards tend to be found in decks with relatively slow strategies, they don't slow the game nearly as much as SDT. You don't play a Pernicious Deed on turn 1 and then activate it once or twice each turn for the rest of the game, taking time to examine and rearrange the top 3 cards of your deck with each activation. SDT wastes time like no other card in Legacy, and it's not even close.

A minor point I should have included in my last post... Not only does SDT cause matches to be drawn, it causes people to win matches 1-0 due to running out of time in the 2nd game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Deed directly prevents anything from happening in the game. SDT does not; looking at your top three, shuffling, then looking again wastes comparitively little time if the game is about to end.

Anyway, from the perspective of format interest, the biggest problem in Legacy is that the mana curve trends to 1. The three biggest obstacles towards an all 0-2 cc metagame are, in order of ascendance, Deed, Chalice, and Counterbalance. I therefore think it would be a terrible idea to ban either Counterbalance or Top; you'd be only pushing the mana curve event horizon in the format lower, which limits diversity and simplifies the metagame.

Tarmogoyf, on the other hand, is very much responsible for discouraging the use of cards above 2cc on the mana curve, and may be said to be harming the diversity of the format. If you're going to ban anything, logically it should be Tarmogoyf. I'm not sure I'd ban anything, but I'm very sure which card I'd ban if I had to.

In fact, Counterbalance-Top existed for a year in Legacy without being particularly popular as anything more than a sideboard option for Thresh, until Tarmogoyf was printed and it could be paired effectively with the most overpowered beater ever printed- which it could also easily counter.

[morgan_coke]

I'll go ahead and concur with IBA. The tendency of Legacy is for everything to be 0, 1, 2 mana or have a zero mana alternate casting cost. Chalice, Counterbalance, and to a lesser extent Deed, C&P, and E.E. are about the only things serving as counters to that tendency. If CB/Top goes, something else needs to come in to replace it as "hate" for 1 & 2 cc decks.

[Volt]

If CB/Top goes, something else needs to come in to replace it as "hate" for 1 & 2 cc decks.

Fine. As long as it's not something as tedious as SDT.

[Jak]

The format changed when Tarmogoyf was printed. Nothing was and is better than it so plently of beaters got pushed out of the format. Decks like Survival can soley rely on Goyf instead of having FTK, Baloth, Masticore, etc.

The format changed when Counterbalance was played (people only played it in the board for a while...). Instead of running good card advantage spells like Thirst, Predict, Fact or Fiction, etc, decks like Thresh can just run Counterbalance. It also means they don't need to leave Counterspell mana open for the rest of the game and effectively "lock" the game.

Top changed the format when it became paired with Counterbalance. Sure, it was played before, but it became ridiculous once people paired it with the enchantment and found it to pretty aazing without it. It allowed players to manipulate their library every turn, but it slows the game down to a crawl. The combo is probably the most powerful in the format and something that good is pretty abundant.

I think the thing is, all these cards are pretty poor. They make me bored. Personally, I think banning Goyf is the right call. Hopefully, it gets other creatures that cost more involved and that makes the combo not as great. If that doesn't do it, ban something else.

[frogboy]

In fact, Counterbalance-Top existed for a year in Legacy without being particularly popular as anything more than a sideboard option for Thresh, until Tarmogoyf was printed and it could be paired effectively with the most overpowered beater ever printed- which it could also easily counter.

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Top is less time intensive the better you are at Magic.

Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Not really. The format had a lot more control decks, not to mention Goblins, back then. Also, Threshold needed to get- well, Threshold. Making running cards like Top and Balance that don't hit the yard (as opposed to Portent and Counterspell) less appealing. And other decks simply didn't have a really efficient threat to pair it with.

Tarmogoyf made it really easy to play Counter-Top with a fast clock.


Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

Depends. Wild Mongrel and Tog, when they were dominant in T2, had a few months before a new set came in and changed things. They also required you to play a deck. Tarmogoyf doesn't. Tarmogoyf goes in almost everything and obsoletes almost every creature except those help you find more of your own Tarmogoyfs (Confidant) and steal an opponent's Tarmogoyfs (Sower).

[Volt]

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Yeah, it did take longer than it should have for CB-Top to catch on.


Top is less time intensive the better you are at Magic.


Okay. I guess Wizards should have told everybody to get better at Magic so they wouldn't have to ban Top in Extended, then.


Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

Hmm, I can't go along with that. Those creatures found homes in a few different decks that happened to dominate for a while, while Tarmogoyf has infected modern day Legacy kind of the same way that Mr. Smith infected the matrix in Matrix 3.

[frogboy]

Okay. I guess Wizards should have told everybody to get better at Magic so they wouldn't have to ban Top in Extended, then.

Someone was whining about pros taking longer to Top. I'm also fairly sure if it was legal, then Counterbalance would have to go for power level. I mean, the best deck in Extended is already a blue aggro control deck.


Those creatures found homes in a few different decks that happened to dominate for a while, while Tarmogoyf has infected modern day Legacy kind of the same way that Mr. Smith infected the matrix in Matrix 3.

Like, sure, MBC and a couple other decks existed, but most of them were bad. Mongrel aggro and Psychatog were pretty much it. The format didn't really change until sets rotated.


And other decks simply didn't have a really efficient threat to pair it with.

You don't need a threat, you just need to not die. I think Tarmogoyf is bad in most of the Counterbalance decks that aren't aggressive because it's basically a removal spell that can be countered by Swords to Plowshares.

[Zinch]

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Top is less time intensive the better you are at Magic.

Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

Well, before claiming that every Legacy player is an idiot, you have to think before... Everyone knew that top-balance was very good in legacy, but if you are so clever, try to play it in a metagame without tarmogoyf where goblins will eat you every round and where Landstill will kill you with mishra's before you archieve threshold for your werebears...

Legacy players are not idiots, only that 'goyf changed the metagamen in a way where top-balance is a gamebreaking combination

[scrow213]

I am basically agreeing with a lot of what has already been said. CB+Top isn't broken, but I can certainly see the argument for time-sinking. It happened in Extended, so it can easily happen with Legacy.

As for Tarmogoyf, I have wanted to see him gone for a long time. He is severely undercosted and permeates nearly any deck in the format. When you can take almost any deck, throw some green duals and Tarmogoyfs in and make it better, that's bad. It makes Legacy boring. 2 mana? Let me guess... Tarmogoyf! He pigeon-holes other creatures into niche decks and obsoletes anything that costs more than 2 mana (generally speaking). As it was stated before, the only other creatures that see play (outside tribal) are creatures to find Tarmogoyf (Bob) and creatures to take opposing Tarmogoyf (Sower).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, Tarmogoyf invalidates huge chunks of the color red- Lightning Bolt and Flametongue Kavuhave gone kind of craptastic.

[bowvamp]

Yeah, I hate goyf. He makes legacy be so much more... costly. Also, I even saw him splashed into pox.

[deadlock]

I thought for a long time that Goyf should be banned, but two things changed my mind.
If you argument that Goyf goes in so many decks, than you should argue with cards like FoW too. Is it just because green got a stable? You may add green for the package of Goyf and Grip to you freshly build deck, you may also add blue for FoW, BS, Daze and Ponder to your deck so what?

More importantly and already scratched by Zinch, if you look at the pre-Goyf (and CB) era dominated forestmost by Goblins, Threshold and to a lesser extend Solidarity than you see that the decline of Goblins and Solidarity spawned quite a bunch of new decks / made archtypes viable again.

Saying that Goyf basically reads '1U' (put it in every blue deck) is not the problem of Goyf, its the problem of blue, bringing so many poweful cards and mechanics to the table.

Also like CB Goyf can be answered to a certain degree quite easily, not only by all kinds of removal (which would be no argument), but by a nice utility card called Relic of Progenitus.

[scrow213]

Yeah, I hate goyf. He makes legacy be so much more... costly. Also, I even saw him splashed into pox.

It's not even about the price. He skews deck design to fit him. He makes CB better and forces smaller mana curves. He pigeon-holes other creatures into a few niche scenarios.

[Nihil Credo]

I agree with IBA that banning Tarmogoyf would probably make the format more diverse, and likely also more fun.

It's worth noting, though, that the DCI acts quite conservatively on this subject: it bans cards when there is a serious format health problem, not just because it would be an improvement.

When cards like Umezawa's Jitte or Bitterblossom were running amok in Standard, developers admitted that they were a mistake and that the game would be better without them. But still they didn't ban them because, although the format could have been better, it was good enough that people kept playing it.

That Legacy in its current form is quite popular is what makes me predict that, come this March, the DCI will keep the usual suspects on their watch list and probably hold some lengthy discussion about them, but ultimately choose to not ban anything. They'll wait until they are convinced that attendance is going to actually suffer from it.

[scrow213]

I agree with IBA that banning Tarmogoyf would probably make the format more diverse, and likely also more fun.

It's worth noting, though, that the DCI acts quite conservatively on this subject: it bans cards when there is a serious format health problem, not just because it would be an improvement.

When cards like Umezawa's Jitte or Bitterblossom were running amok in Standard, developers admitted that they were a mistake and that the game would be better without them. But still they didn't ban them because, although the format could have been better, it was good enough that people kept playing it.

That Legacy in its current form is quite popular is what makes me predict that, come this March, the DCI will keep the usual suspects on their watch list and probably hold some lengthy discussion about them, but ultimately choose to don't ban anything. They'll wait until they are convinced that attendance is going to actually suffer from it.

Well said, but a thing to note is that, unlike Standard (or Extended), they can't just say "Oops, mistake. It will rotate out in a couple months anyway." It's in Legacy, and if they don't remove it, it will never leave.

As to the argument that FoW should be treated the same... what? FoW requires you to play a heavy blue element, where 'goyf doesn't force you to play any more green that just the 'goyf. FoW fills a role that no other card does (free counterspell on turn 0), where Tarmogoyf doesn't (cheap vanilla beatstick), he just does it way better than any other option. FoW doesn't force other good and diverse options out of the meta, while 'goyf does (Psychatog, Werebear, Wild Mongrel, etc). These are not even close to the same thing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree with both the idea that Goyf, unlike Fow, or Brainstorm, or StP or Thoughtseize or Wasteland, obsoletes a whole range of common options and strategies by simply being vastly better with no commitment required.

I also agree that the format is still diverse and interesting even with Goyf, and that the DCI probably won't do anything for that reason.

[Volt]

Concur re: goyf.

I think SDT probably (60/40) will get banned, but maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[scrow213]

Re: 'goyf

Just got into this argument with some guy on SCG and this is basically how it panned out. I was arguing that Tarmogoyf is the main reason that CB + Top is so potent, as it forces decks to play cheap creatures, instead of the higher cost power creatures it used to play (FtK, Baloth, etc). (I am stormywaters over there)


The NLU decks that paired off against each other in the finals of the GP had answers to cc1 through cc5 spells to match with CB in their stack. How much higher do you think somebody would have to go to make Counterbalance too risky to play? I think the obvious answer is - much too high to be effective in Legacy.


Your argument is false. Force of Will is there as a counter, not for Counterbalance. I would not count a 4-of as a reliable way to CB a 5cc spell. Moving to the 4cc slot, we have 2-3 Sower of Temptation. I don't think that does anything noticeable for CB either. So the real curve is 0-3. Even at 3cc, they only run a few spells there. So realistically the curve is 0-2 with some 3cc. They may have an outside shot at countering a Wrath of God, but nothing close to reliably.

I play Stax, which is almost entirely all 3cc and up. I never worry about Counterbalance at all, because I know they will almost never hit anything I play with any sort of consistency.


Find me a deck with counterspells that does not use Force of Will and I'll buy your argument. Until then I see nothing wrong with cards that are clearly better than other cards and thus included in most decks that can accomodate them.


Another invalid argument. FoW is not the same for the following reasons:

1) Requires a heavy blue base (Tarmogoyf does not require any other green at all)

2) Fills a role not otherwise filled (free counter on turn 0) and Tarmogoyf does not (vanilla beatstick)

3) Does not make a large swath of similar cards useless (since there is only 1 other turn 0 free counter), where Tarmogoyf does (as listed several times in this thread)

So these two cannot even be compared. Any actually valid points?


1) Does not require a heavy blue base, Force of Will goes into any deck that is going to play 15 blue cards or more including 4x Force of Will. Find me a deck which is half blue and does not include Force of Will.

2) Beside the point. Auto-include is auto-include.

3. Completely false. Nobody plays Spell Blast or Powersink or Force Spike or Flash Counter or any of the other counters available because Force of Will is an auto-include in all counter suites. Daze, Spell Snare and Counterspell all get played at some level in some decks however Force of Will gets played at the 4x level in every deck with counters except for Aluren. You have to believe that there would be room for specialty inferior counters in many decks alongside the 2-4 of's above if Force of Will wasn't included at 4-of in every deck. It eats the breathing space that all other counters occupy and causes some of them that would have utility otherwise to not have utility. Just as Tarmogoyf does to all other green creatures. Powersink in particular would have value as an ambush counter if it was not for the fact that Force of Will out of hand completely negates it without forcing the opponent to spend any mana, and actually allows the opponent to tap out and satisfy it without losing the ability to counter what comes next.


Wow. First of all, 16+ is the generally accepted minimum blue cards for playing FoW. Secondly, this makes my deck half blue. I can't play a black deck with a light blue splash for FoW. I can, however, play a black(/red/white/blue) deck with a light splash for 'goyf. Nice argument.

Next, auto-include in a deck that is at least half blue is different from auto-include in a deck that you can squeeze a couple of Bayous or Tropicals into. Not even close. Move along.

Finally, no. Nobody plays Force Spike because it's not good enough any more. Same with Flash Counter, Mana Leak, etc. None of the cards you listed can counter a spell on turn 0. Force does this. It fills a role that no other card does. Tarmogoyf does what any other vanilla beatstick does. Force does something unique. That is the difference. Read my post please. kthx.

[Jak]

Maybe a much more effective argument is to list cards that Tarmogoyf basically trumped out of the format. I'll start with some off the top of my head and if I forget any, please add on.

Troll Ascetic
Flametongue Kavu
Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Arrogant Wurm
Werebear
Exalted Angel
Loxodon Heirarch
Ravenous Baloth
Nimble Mongoose (it is getting there)

Those are off the top of my head so please add on.

I would also like to note that those creatures spawned many decks and there was variety.

[kabal]

Maybe a much more effective argument is to list cards that Tarmogoyf basically trumped out of the format. I'll start with some off the top of my head and if I forget any, please add on.

Loxodon Heirarch
Troll Ascetic


Seriously? They are still played. Just a quick scan of deckcheck of decks in 2008 that top 8 with them was over 100 (70/30 towards Heirarch). This site is pretty much just the European scene.

[Isamaru]

I never wanted to complain about Tarmogoyf, but if we're talking about which of the three would be the most 'healthy' if banned, Tarmogoyf is more of a format-warper than Top or Counterbalance. (Some good reasons include those discussed above.)

The problem is time/its clock. Of course the argument has already been discussed to death, but even if you have the answers for it, you have to find them and resolve them within the next 3-4 turns, or lose. Just because Tarmogoyf can be killed and doesn't have trample doesn't take into account the fact that it is a single, compact threat that takes such little effort to plop down. Letting strategies that otherwise have trouble with creatures to just play Tarmogoyf ends up somewhat 'warping' things.

At the Grand Prix, I ended up losing to a Tarmogoyf, even though I have a huge amount of answers, bigger creatures, tons of blockers, and even mainboard Relic of Progenitus (and including the fact that my deck is based around one of the best ways to deal with Tarmogoyf - stealing it). I couldn't find it / the means to play it / multiple to get through counters / etc. in time.

Counterbalance doesn't put you on a clock, it just asks to be dealt with before you can try to win afterwards. The times I lose to Counterbalance are almost always when a Tarmogoyf is attacking underneath it.

[undone]

For referance those who say no other card fulfills the requirement of turn 0 0 mana counter your plans have been FOILed. Clearly you dont know your own arguement. FOW is just the most effecient free counter spell better than foil, better than misdirect better than commandeer. It doesnt mean its too good because it pushes other (NOW) suboptimal creatures beneath it. I would really like exalted angel to be playable but it never will be because of goyf, that doesnt make goyf too good it makes angel too BAD.

It is infact top that is the problem (if it is a problem its ONLY DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS) as goyf, while format warping, is just a beater he makes creatures smaller than him worse. That isnt a bad thing, afterall grizzly bears is unplayable (I sware if some one pulls out that 1 list that swapped a G bares for a goyf I will kick them in the nuts) for so many reasons, that doesnt make wear bare, Vanquisher, watch wolf, or any other 2 drop too good , it makes bears too BAD.

[scrow213]

For referance those who say no other card fulfills the requirement of turn 0 0 mana counter your plans have been FOILed. Clearly you dont know your own arguement. FOW is just the most effecient free counter spell better than foil, better than misdirect better than commandeer. It doesnt mean its too good because it pushes other (NOW) suboptimal creatures beneath it. I would really like exalted angel to be playable but it never will be because of goyf, that doesnt make goyf too good it makes angel too BAD.

It is infact top that is the problem (if it is a problem its ONLY DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS) as goyf, while format warping, is just a beater he makes creatures smaller than him worse. That isnt a bad thing, afterall grizzly bears is unplayable (I sware if some one pulls out that 1 list that swapped a G bares for a goyf I will kick them in the nuts) for so many reasons, that doesnt make wear bare, Vanquisher, watch wolf, or any other 2 drop too good , it makes bears too BAD.

Foil is garbage, and it is stupid to bring up such a corner-case card. 'goyf doesn't just make creatures smaller than him worse. All creatures do that. He makes almost any creature that is not a 4/5 for 2 mana unplayable. Psychatog was amazing in his day. That was before Tarmogoyf said "1/2 for 3 in two different colors that can be pumped? How about an easily splashable 4/5 or 5/6 for 2?" Same with Werebear "A 1/1 for 2 that taps for mana and becomes a 4/4? Why not a creature that is almost guaranteed to start larger every single time?"

If you think this is how the game should work then I feel sorry for you. Now nothing wizards prints will be good enough to play, unless it is better than a Tarmogoyf. So I hope you like him guys, cause nothing is going to replace him for a long long time.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Foil, Disrupting Shoal, Misdirection. Pact of Negation. But I think relevance and numbers were an implied, if not explicitly stated, part of the conversation.

eta: Oh, and Daze, obviously. Although that actually didn't see nearly as much play before Goyf, since Fish sucked and other decks, even Thresh, had to worry about late games and the like.

Anyway. While I still don't think Tarmogoyf will be banned, I think it probably should be and it would probably make the format more interesting. Not to mention, cheaper. Heck, there was a time when Dark Ritual- Phyrexian Negator was a good play...

[undone]

Foil is garbage, and it is stupid to bring up such a corner-case card. 'goyf doesn't just make creatures smaller than him worse. All creatures do that. He makes almost any creature that is not a 4/5 for 2 mana unplayable. Psychatog was amazing in his day. That was before Tarmogoyf said "1/2 for 3 in two different colors that can be pumped? How about an easily splashable 4/5 or 5/6 for 2?" Same with Werebear "A 1/1 for 2 that taps for mana and becomes a 4/4? Why not a creature that is almost guaranteed to start larger every single time?"

If you think this is how the game should work then I feel sorry for you. Now nothing wizards prints will be good enough to play, unless it is better than a Tarmogoyf. So I hope you like him guys, cause nothing is going to replace him for a long long time.

Just because there are more creatures than free counter magic doesnt change my point. Either FoW AND goyf are bad for the format as they invalidated the next best option, OR neither are. As above there are tons of examples, you chose to ignore them and dismiss them, that doesnt mean its not ture. I believe its the latter case when it comes to goyf. You can still play flame toung, shreikmaw, and heck even wear bare did well it just had goyf along side. Being the best creature doesnt mean it invalidates other options after all you can only play 4 and you need more than that to win games.

Goyf is good but most definately NOT broken.

[raharu]

I thought for a long time that Goyf should be banned, but two things changed my mind.
If you argument that Goyf goes in so many decks, than you should argue with cards like FoW too. Is it just because green got a stable? You may add green for the package of Goyf and Grip to you freshly build deck, you may also add blue for FoW, BS, Daze and Ponder to your deck so what?

I have to disagree with that. In order to fit in the 'Threshold Package', you have to dedicate a large portion of your deck to Blue. Force of Will doesn't simply fucking splash into any deck, and adding in the rest of the 'Threshold Package' eats at least 16 slots and still won't give you a large enough blue count.


Saying that Goyf basically reads '1U' (put it in every blue deck) is not the problem of Goyf, its the problem of blue, bringing so many poweful cards and mechanics to the table.

Well, blue is a color that you have to dedicate the deck to, so it's balanced. Blue doesn't splash. Tarmogoyf does, easily and frequently. Paralleling Blue and Tarmogoyf is really... well, it's not accurate. Not even close.

It seems like you just don't like walking into Force and Daze.

[Volt]

flame toung, shreikmaw, and heck even wear bare

Congrats. That was impressive.

[raharu]

Just because there are more creatures than free counter magic doesnt change my point. Either FoW AND goyf are bad for the format as they invalidated the next best option, OR neither are. As above there are tons of examples, you chose to ignore them and dismiss them, that doesnt mean its not true.

You fail to recognize that the alternatives to Tarmogoyf were actually relevant before it appeared. Foil and the corner-case nonsense you dredged up weren't, aren't, and most likely never will be, even in the absence of Force of Will. Tarmogoyf and Force of Will are drastically different cases, and to treat them the same and demand that the judgment of each be mutually inclusive is an ignorant argument, ignoring the basic facts.

[deadlock]

Okay, i admit FoW was a bad example, take BS / Ponder instead. Also consider that FoW is around for a very long time compared to Goyf, so it may feel more "natural" to have it.

Another relevant question is, what archtypes became unviable / destroyed since Goyf? Psychatog wasnt relevant before, the only deck i am currently come up with is madness (dont know if it was remotly good).

Sure he obsoleted some creatures, foremost Werbear in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, which actually sees play again because of Natural Order / Progenitus and people moving to more cmc 3 cards in Thresh.
This Troll Ascetic dude maybe saw play in Rock, i dont know.. i just dont get the feeling that he kicked that many played(!) creatures out of the theme.


It seems like you just don't like walking into Force and Daze.
Yes i dont like when my spells dont resolve, but i also wouldnt touch a deck that doesnt start with 4 FoW...

[Isamaru]

I know everyone's sort of sick of this discussion, but I'll just say that it's not only that Tarmogoyf invalidated creatures... it's that it invalidates creatures and also gets to "oops I win" games where the opponent can't find/resolve an answer or a Goyf of their own.


Anyway. While I still don't think Tarmogoyf will be banned, I think it probably should be and it would probably make the format more interesting. Not to mention, cheaper. Heck, there was a time when Dark Ritual- Phyrexian Negator was a good play...

mhmm, good point

[frogboy]

Jitte was far more distorting than Tarmogoyf is. Blossom in Block wasn't as bad as Jitte, but I think it was still worse.

[raharu]

Okay, i admit FoW was a bad example, take BS / Ponder instead. Also consider that FoW is around for a very long time compared to Goyf, so it may feel more "natural" to have it.

Another relevant question is, what archtypes became unviable / destroyed since Goyf? Psychatog wasnt relevant before, the only deck i am currently come up with is madness (dont know if it was remotly good).

Sure he obsoleted some creatures, foremost Werbear in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, which actually sees play again because of Natural Order / Progenitus and people moving to more cmc 3 cards in Thresh.
This Troll Ascetic dude maybe saw play in Rock, i dont know.. i just dont get the feeling that he kicked that many played(!) creatures out of the theme.


Yes i dont like when my spells dont resolve, but i also wouldnt touch a deck that doesnt start with 4 FoW...
Card selection doesn't warp the format, and decks still don't splash for Brainstorm and Ponder. You aren't really making a point.

[Volt]

Jitte was far more distorting than Tarmogoyf is. Blossom in Block wasn't as bad as Jitte, but I think it was still worse.

The reason it isn't "distorting," at least in the traditional sense in which that word applies to our silly little card game, is because almost every deck can and does play it. It hasn't polarized the format into "play goyf" vs "beat goyf." It's pretty much just "play goyf." That's why I made I made the analogy to Mr. Smith in The Matrix sequels earlier. It's like Tarmogoyf just went around to all the different decks in Legacy, touching them and converting them into goyf decks. It hasn't distorted the format so much as infested it.

[Bardo]

Tarmogoyf is one of the few cards that actually makes green worth playing.

Blue has Force of Will, Brainstorm and Ponder; Black has Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker and Dark Confidant; White has Swords to Plowshares (that's about it); Red has REB and Pyroclasm? Actually, Red has a lot of powerful cards, they're just "build-around-me's," rather than auto-includes; you can't throw Magus of the Moon, Goblin Ringleader, Burning Wish, Price of Progress into any old deck that runs red.

Basically, Tarmogoyf is to green what Swords to Plowshares is to White: a saving grace to an otherwise shit color. He just happens to be a beater, which is green's raison d'etre.

Like all of the Legacy staples, Tarmogoyf is extremely efficient for its cost. That's what makes it a staple. And I haven't heard anyone clamoring for Brainstorm to be banned so they can play Counsel of the Soratami. Staples make other cards obsolete. There's no reason to play Disrupting Shoal when you can play Force of Will (see also, Condemn vs. Swords to Plowshares). Again, staples make other cards obsolete.

It seems that the underlying objection to the "ban Goyf" crowd is that he's a win condition in his own right, unlike Thoughtseize, etc. He's green, what do you expect?

[Volt]

He's green, what do you expect?

But he isn't green. Not really.

[Michael Keller]

Tarmogoyf may be green, but that doesn't necessarily claim it as the "be all and end all" of green. I think at the time when Tarmogoyf was released, green itself wasn't a very strong color (except in mono-Stompy variants which saw occasional play). Ever since then, when you think about green in Magic, you really think about Tarmogoyf - he's just that good. Magic was a game created primarily using the attack phase and he's just arguably the best creature per-cost, per-average P/T ever (excluding Phyrexian Dreadnought).

But I wouldn't classify him as a staple. I just think people want to create decks that don't necessarily need him. Most people have the misconception that he serves as an "alternate win condition". I believe this to be a fallacy. He dies to Terror and just about every removal spell there is. And how often is it you play against an opponent who is unprepared to handle the attack phase? If you throw Tarmogoyf in your deck because you need to fill slots, then that's fine. But ultimately, you need to weigh down whether or not he bogs the overall strategy and purpose of your deck down or acts as an important compliment to the whole concept.

Chances are, if you have four available slots open by the time you finish tweaking a competitive deck, then your deck should already be well-oiled and ready to go. This is where Tarmogoyf works best; chomping at the bits to make his way into another competitive round of Magic.

[Illuvator Brightstar]

Silly question, but when does the DCI announce bannings anyway? I know it's this month, but what day of the month? Or does it vary?

[Atwa]

Silly question, but when does the DCI announce bannings anyway? I know it's this month, but what day of the month? Or does it vary?

Normally the 21st if my memory serves me right.

EDIT: My memory didn't serve me right.....

[Bardo]

Silly question, but when does the DCI announce bannings anyway? I know it's this month, but what day of the month? Or does it vary?

March 20. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/15a)

@ Hollywood - Do you disagree with this statement: "Tarmogoyf is the best green card ever created that's legal in Legacy?" I'm speaking in general terms, since there may be excellent flagship cards (Argothian Enchantress) that fit into a very limited number of decks.

The most telling thing is the number of Goyfs in the T8 of the GP: Chicago.

Tarmogoyf: 24
Dark Confidant: 10

Brainstorm: 16
Force of Will: 12
Dark Ritual: 12
Sensei's Divining Top: 11
Counterbalance: 8
Swords to Plowshares: 8
Spell Snare: 7

Fucking nutty.

Six of the T8 decks ran playsets of Tarmogoyf. One other T8 deck was creatureless; the other was mono-red. The two finalist decks both ran 8 Goyfs between them.

BTW, I don't think Goyf should be banned. It's just really, really good at winning games.

@ Volt - True. He's more blue than green. Still. I also agree that he's dumbed down deck construction a bit. That's true of all the Legacy staples (Brainstorm, FOW, etc.)

[frogboy]

Do you disagree with this statement: "Tarmogoyf is the best green card ever created?" I'm speaking in general terms, since there may be excellent flagship cards (Argothian Enchantress) that fit into a very limited number of decks.

It's not really fair to not be allowed to includes cards like Oath, Channel, Enchantress, and so on. He's the best 'fair' green card, sure.

Yeah, I was thinking "Best Legacy-legal green" card; not "ever." Personally, I blame the alcohol. Oath > Goyf. - Bardo


almost every deck can and does play it.

If you were playing an aggro mirror during this period and your opponent had Jitte and you didn't, you were a gigantic dog unless your opponent was terrible or didn't draw any creatures. Tarmogoyf is usually the best card in RG mirrors due to size, but it's usually just a random threat in other aggro matchups.

And yeah, there were control decks that ran Jitte.

The comparison to Plow is pretty accurate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Format warping in Standard is really a very different creature than in Legacy. The former changes every, what, three to four months usually? It's part of the scene. Legacy is supposed to be more wide open- at least that's what's attractive about the format.

It has nothing to do with "broken". Banning Tarmogoyf would make the format more interesting by opening up a lot of exciting new cards that it's supressing. I don't think you can say the same about Ponder.

[Omega]

Once goyfs goes away, Threshold as a deck will die. (Werebear + Nimble mongoose won't make it, since Relic of Progenitus is so good)
Goblin will rise back to the top.
And we will go back to our old format of Goblins.
Of course, people don't like goblins. Neither do I.
Why isn't Goblin dominating as it used to?
Because there are Tarmogoyf
Combo and Landstill were always present back in the days. They did improve.
NLU, or decks that relied heavily on Goyfs will likely die. They won't have that 2cc kill condiiton anymore

[scrow213]

Once goyfs goes away, Threshold as a deck will die. (Werebear + Nimble mongoose won't make it, since Relic of Progenitus is so good)
Goblin will rise back to the top.
And we will go back to our old format of Goblins.
Of course, people don't like goblins. Neither do I.
Why isn't Goblin dominating as it used to?
Because there are Tarmogoyf
Combo and Landstill were always present back in the days. They did improve.
NLU, or decks that relied heavily on Goyfs will likely die. They won't have that 2cc kill condiiton anymore

Relic hurts Tarmogoyf more than Werebear or Nimble Mongoose. If Tarmogoyf is gone, it opens a plethora of other playable creatures and strategies, and makes CB + Top less of a powerhouse. It would diversify the meta and give people a lot more options. I mean right now you have what? Tribal, Combo, or some variant of 'goyf aggro-control. Sounds like fun to me.

[Isamaru]

Tarmogoyf may be green, but that doesn't necessarily claim it as the "be all and end all" of green. I think at the time when Tarmogoyf was released, green itself wasn't a very strong color (except in mono-Stompy variants which saw occasional play). Ever since then, when you think about green in Magic, you really think about Tarmogoyf - he's just that good. Magic was a game created primarily using the attack phase and he's just arguably the best creature per-cost, per-average P/T ever (excluding Phyrexian Dreadnought).

But I wouldn't classify him as a staple. I just think people want to create decks that don't necessarily need him. Most people have the misconception that he serves as an "alternate win condition". I believe this to be a fallacy. He dies to Terror and just about every removal spell there is. And how often is it you play against an opponent who is unprepared to handle the attack phase? If you throw Tarmogoyf in your deck because you need to fill slots, then that's fine. But ultimately, you need to weigh down whether or not he bogs the overall strategy and purpose of your deck down or acts as an important compliment to the whole concept.

Chances are, if you have four available slots open by the time you finish tweaking a competitive deck, then your deck should already be well-oiled and ready to go. This is where Tarmogoyf works best; chomping at the bits to make his way into another competitive round of Magic.

Okay, one more time: It doesn't matter if you play a ton of answers to Tarmogoyf, you will still lose to it if you can't find them and resolve them quickly.

Some good points have been brought up in this thread - it's not that he's broken, but it would make things a bit more interesting [TIBA]. It's not a distortion, it's an infestation [Volt].

[scrow213]

Okay, one more time: It doesn't matter if you play a ton of answers to Tarmogoyf, you will still lose to it if you can't find them and resolve them quickly.

Some good points have been brought up in this thread - it's not that he's broken, but it would make things a bit more interesting [TIBA]. It's not a distortion, it's an infestation [Volt].

I agree. I misspoke saying it was a distortion. It is indeed an infestation. If they draw more 'goyfs, they win. And I still stand by the reasoning that 'goyf is the sole reason that CB + Top is so potent right now.

[frogboy]

dear people who think banning Tarmogoyf makes Counterbalance a terrible strategy,

wat.

love,

everybody else

[BreathWeapon]

Once goyfs goes away, Threshold as a deck will die. (Werebear + Nimble mongoose won't make it, since Relic of Progenitus is so good)
Goblin will rise back to the top.
And we will go back to our old format of Goblins.
Of course, people don't like goblins. Neither do I.
Why isn't Goblin dominating as it used to?
Because there are Tarmogoyf
Combo and Landstill were always present back in the days. They did improve.
NLU, or decks that relied heavily on Goyfs will likely die. They won't have that 2cc kill condiiton anymore

That's more or less a logical fallacy, because you could have said the same thing about Threshold before Relic of Progenitus was printed (Tormod's Crypt) and the deck still managed to survive and thrive in Goblin metas.

I'm all for banning Tarmogoyf, it'd do more good than harm for the format's diversity and enjoyability.

[Volt]

dear person who thinks banning Tarmogoyf makes Counterbalance a terrible strategy,

Fixed.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Hey guys, I have an idea. Why doesn't Wizards just go into our DTB forum, and ban every card in every deck listed there? That way, we can totally throw out our boring, overpowered cards and dig out the exciting old crappy cards we all want to play with so badly. The format would be so much more interesting and enjoyable!

God, I hate playing with good cards.

[Solaran_X]

Beating CB/SDT isn't hard if you're prepared for it (I actually welcome CB/SDT matches). In fact, it's ridiculously easy to get around. However, the time issues with SDT is the issue - not it being overpowered or format warping. Sure, it may not seem like a lot...but take into account people are using SDT on their opponent's EOT, and using SDT after cracking a fetchland, and using SDT to interact with CB, and SDT after their draw to see the new third card...

When this added "dead time" is put on top of the a control-based deck already takes to play, it can lead to a lot of draws it shouldn't. And when you have events like GP: Chicago where 7-2 made Day 2, I can only feel the anger seething from people who went 6-2-1 because of their opponent's using SDT too much and drawing a match.

And to all the people who think Tarmogoyf is what makes CB/SDT so good, or that Tarmogoyf is warping Legacy...

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z149/deshields538/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

[Belgareth]

Hey guys, I have an idea. Why doesn't Wizards just go into our DTB forum, and ban every card in every deck listed there? That way, we can totally throw out our boring, overpowered cards and dig out the exciting old crappy cards we all want to play with so badly. The format would be so much more interesting and enjoyable!

God, I hate playing with good cards.

This.

Why are people always determined to ban cards that are merely good and not broken.
People wanted to ban aether vial/lackey/piledriver not that long ago because goblins was over running the format and ruining the fun.
So tarmogoyf and countertop come along and provide a change to the format such that instead of there being only 1 or 2 good decks there are a myriad of options.
Sadly I'm going to quote the Warcraft developers "Bring the Player not the Class" , although obviously in Legacy it's "Bring the player not the Deck".
Nassif won not because his deck was some amazing breakthrough but because he is a skilled player that has learnt to reduce his play errors to a minimum.
People are well aware on this forum that sitting someone down who has never played TES is going to get less of a result than sending Bryant in with it.
This applies across decks and formats too (The byes are another issue), so decks that have a bad matchup have these matchups compensated by the error ratio.
Tarmogoyf as Bardo said is greens StP, ban it and green loses a lot of it's non survival reasons to be played.
Ban counterbalance or SDtop and you have storm combo start running rings over the format and any chance of attracting new players to the format thrown out the window.
Do people actually see legacy as unhealthy ? Because once you start banning Tarmogoyf or Countertop it will not stop there, it will require multiple other bannings (probably Lackey/Vial/LED)to get it to a similar degree of varied stability.
Unbanning a few cards is another arguement entirely again.
The great part of legacy is that it takes someone looking over the entire card pool every set to see if they finally printed the piece to make the jigsaw fit and sometimes it takes a while for some bright spark to find them.

p.s If tarmogoyf was a sliver then volt would not be arguing for it's banning.

[Isamaru]

Hey guys, I have an idea. Why doesn't Wizards just go into our DTB forum, and ban every card in every deck listed there? That way, we can totally throw out our boring, overpowered cards and dig out the exciting old crappy cards we all want to play with so badly. The format would be so much more interesting and enjoyable!

God, I hate playing with good cards.

I hate doing this, but taking Logic really made these jump out at me: that's a slippery slope fallacy.

And some of us (without the extreme sense you're taking it as) do want to play without those "goood" cards that we don't get the choice not to.

[Belgareth]

I hate doing this, but taking Logic really made these jump out at me: that's a slippery slope fallacy.

And some of us (without the extreme sense you're taking it as) do want to play without those "goood" cards that we don't get the choice not to.

Then wouldn't those people be better making their own banned list for kitchen table play rather than trying to mess with the carefully balanced but healthy metagame that is competitive legacy ?
This is not meant as an insult but a serious question, I would love to play with old obscure but good cards but there will always be netdecks that stomp all over them and banning tarmogoyf or countertop won't make these casual decks any better it will just let goblins resurface and storm combo win turn 2 a lot more unless other bannings take place.
That there is your slippery slope.

[BreathWeapon]

The problem with comparing Tarmogoyf to every other "good card" in the DTB forum is that Tarmogoyf is ubiquitous in every deck except combo, and Force of Will being the best counter, Thought Seize being the best discard, Brainstorm being the best cantrip, Swords to Plowshares being the best removal spell etc. doesn't compare to Tarmogoyf being the best win condition. We still use other counters, other discard, other cantrips and other removal, but with the exception of Tombstalker, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Dredge and Tribes, every other creatures in the game is either a combo piece, accelerant, or a bear with an ability. Considering the game is built around the combat step, any time any other creature tells the rest to GTFO of the format something is seriously wrong.

Having staple spells is no where near as format warping as having a staple win condition, the death of so many Tier 1.5 decks since the printing of Tarmogoyf should be case in point that the card hasn't done anything remotely healthy to the format. I mean ZOMG, you'll have to actually think about what threats you're going to run again with out "4xGoyf lolz."

[Volt]

p.s If tarmogoyf was a sliver then volt would not be arguing for it's banning.

Presumptuous much?

I realize I've been kind of ambiguous on this point, but I don't really care if Tarmogoyf is banned or not. I was just trying to explain my perception of how Tarmogoyf has affected the format. Overall, I think it's a pretty dumb card, but the format will be fine with or without it. Top is the card I want to see banned.

[Solaran_X]

The problem with comparing Tarmogoyf to every other "good card" in the DTB forum is that Tarmogoyf is ubiquitous in every deck except combo, and Force of Will being the best counter, Thought Seize being the best discard, Brainstorm being the best cantrip, Swords to Plowshares being the best removal spell etc. doesn't compare to Tarmogoyf being the best win condition. We still use other counters, other discard, other cantrips and other removal, but with the exception of Tombstalker, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Dredge and Tribes, every other creatures in the game is either a combo piece, accelerant, or a bear with an ability. Considering the game is built around the combat step, any time any other creature tells the rest to GTFO of the format something is seriously wrong.

Having staple spells is no where near as format warping as having a staple win condition, the death of so many Tier 1.5 decks since the printing of Tarmogoyf should be case in point that the card hasn't done anything remotely healthy to the format. I mean ZOMG, you'll have to actually think about what threats you're going to run again with out "4xGoyf lolz."
Name me some creatures that were played in competitive Legacy that are no longer played because of Tarmogoyf. Aside from Werebear. I'll give you Werebear, since Tarmogoyf directly took it's spot in Threshold as a 2CMC threat.

Not every deck that turns men sideways to win runs Goyf. I play a RGb Aggro-Loam list that actually did decent in Chicago (6-3) that runs Tarmogoyf in the SIDEBOARD. Why? Because he doesn't do...anything. He gets semi-fat (my main threats are a lot fatter than even a max size Tarmogoyf and evade CB/SDT pretty often as a 3CMC) and is cheap...and that's the extent of what he is. He does nothing by himself except get turned sideways to (hopefully) swing in for damage. He's early game pressure, assuming he even resolves (Spell Snare, Daze, Force of Will, Counterspell, CB/SDT), survives to swing (Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Putrefy, Mortify, Oblivion Ring, Engineered Explosives), or doesn't turn traitor (Threads of Disloyalty, Sower of Temptation). And let's not even take into account endless chump blockers (Bitterblossom, or Manlands + Crucible).

Once again, it comes down to this. Tarmogoyf is a creature. And a ridiculously vulnerable one in almost every aspect of it's being. And Legacy is a format that, for all intents and purposes, revolves around the Combat Step and creatures. If you're running a deck that can't handle creature threats...you need to evaluate your deck, instead of saying Tarmogoyf needs banned so your deck gets better.

[BreathWeapon]

Name me some creatures that were played in competitive Legacy that are no longer played because of Tarmogoyf. Aside from Werebear. I'll give you Werebear, since Tarmogoyf directly took it's spot in Threshold as a 2CMC threat.

Not every deck that turns men sideways to win runs Goyf. I play a RGb Aggro-Loam list that actually did decent in Chicago (6-3) that runs Tarmogoyf in the SIDEBOARD. Why? Because he doesn't do...anything. He gets semi-fat (my main threats are a lot fatter than even a max size Tarmogoyf and evade CB/SDT pretty often as a 3CMC) and is cheap...and that's the extent of what he is. He does nothing by himself except get turned sideways to (hopefully) swing in for damage. He's early game pressure, assuming he even resolves (Spell Snare, Daze, Force of Will, Counterspell, CB/SDT), survives to swing (Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Putrefy, Mortify, Oblivion Ring, Engineered Explosives), or doesn't turn traitor (Threads of Disloyalty, Sower of Temptation). And let's not even take into account endless chump blockers (Bitterblossom, or Manlands + Crucible).

Once again, it comes down to this. Tarmogoyf is a creature. And a ridiculously vulnerable one in almost every aspect of it's being. And Legacy is a format that, for all intents and purposes, revolves around the Combat Step and creatures. If you're running a deck that can't handle creature threats...you need to evaluate your deck, instead of saying Tarmogoyf needs banned so your deck gets better.

Your reasoning is atrocious, counters, discard, board and spot removal have nothing to do with the power level of a card and it's affect on deck design. Legacy is filled with answers for Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf keeps on coming, because he's still the best creature in the format and there's no point in running anything else.

I can Spellsnare and Swords to Plowshares a creature all day long, that doesn't stop Tarmogoyf from totally invalidating every other beater in the format.

LOL @ not running Tarmogoyf in Survival and then SBing it too.

As far as creatures no longer ran, pretty much anything in WW, Suicide/w, Suicide/r, Slivers, Madness, Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, Jotun Grunt and most of the 4cc beaters like Baloths, Flametongues etc.

[Solaran_X]

Your reasoning is atrocious, counters, discard, board and spot removal have nothing to do with the power level of a card and it's affect on deck design. Legacy is filled with answers for Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf keeps on coming, because he's still the best creature in the format and there's no point in running anything else.

I can Spellsnare and Swords to Plowshares a creature all day long, that doesn't stop Tarmogoyf from totally invalidating every other beater in the format.

LOL @ not running Tarmogoyf in Survival and then SBing it too.

As far as creatures no longer ran, pretty much anything in WW, Suicide/w, Suicide/r, Slivers, Madness, Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, Jotun Grunt and most of the 4cc beaters like Baloths, Flametongues etc.
Let's see...

First off, 4CMC beaters were rarely played (I can't remember the last time, even pre-FS, I saw Flametongue Kavu used) unless they do something DRAMATIC. Like Loxodon Hierarch (still played in Legacy).

White Weenie still exists. It's called Death and Taxes.

Deadguy Ale still exists and is played.

Red Death still exists and is played.

CounterSliver is still a powerful deck in Legacy. Several made Day 2 in GP: Chicago a week ago.

Madness lost viability pre-FS. Can't blame that on Goyf.

Werebear I gave you.

Nimble Mongoose only recently fell out of use, and that was more because of Relic of Progentus than Tarmogoyf. And once Threshold adapts to Relic, it will be used again.

Jotun Grunt is still played, both in Death and Taxes and Zoo decks. 4/4 for 1W that hurts Tarmogoyfs and graveyard-based decks with it's Cumulative Upkeep? Very useful.

The three creatures banned in Legacy are banned because they are crucial parts of a Combo engine that basically say "I win" when they resolve. Tarmogoyf is just a vanilla, al biet efficient, beater that does nothing. A typical Goyf gives you FIVE TURNS to answer it. Worldgorger Dragon, Hermit Druid, and Metalworker give you ZERO or ONE TURN to answer it.

Your reasoning for banning Goyf is atrocious. It's a simple creature with no protection and no evasion. Goyf, by himself, does not win games unless the person facing the Goyf is a total idiot.

Oh...and I'm not running Survival. I'm running Loam. So if you can't figure out what creatures I have that are a lot more efficient than Goyf...you probably don't play much Legacy outside the kitchen table. The only people who think Tarmogoyf is overpowered are A) the people who can't afford them or B) the people who don't think they should run removal in a creature-based format - IE...the idiots.

Which are you?

[TheRock]

Legacy and Vintage are not formats based on the combat step - the power level of blue is simply too high for that to consistently happen. Granted, it doesn't invalidate the strategy, but it will never be dominant in very competitive venues.

I don't care about the strength of the color pie as long as we all aren't running some combination of three colors in our decks because the strength of those three colors makes splashing worthless. Color pies are for Limited, Standard, and Extended (more particularly once fetches rotate out). We have fetches in this format and the lands to make those fetches fantastic. However, Goyf is starting to change the colors decks are running and splashing for in very large numbers. Splashing and working with not-so-easy manabases is something I like to see in this format, but when a format has severe problems dealing with Wasteland->Extirpate, it is because something is truly wrong (and this isn't just Goyf's problem).

Goyf has severely weakened the appearance of AEther Vial, Suicide strategies (or simply caused it to go a different route), and has forced most control decks to run more blockers or other forms of stealing/creature removal even without the presence of aggro decks. It is time for Goyf to go, have an errata put on it, or for a few hate cards to be printed that specifically make it permanently suck (not like Relic).

[Bahamuth]

White Weenie still exists. It's called Death and Taxes.

Death and Taxes is honestly not such a good deck. It's rarely played anymore. The mere existence of the deck doesn't prove anything.



Deadguy Ale still exists and is played.

This deck is inferior to Eva Green. There is absolutely no reason not to splash to Green and play Goyf.


Red Death still exists and is played.

That's not even true. No one plays this deck.


CounterSliver is still a powerful deck in Legacy. Several made Day 2 in GP: Chicago a week ago.

Thresh or NLU require a package of about 10 creatures (tempo thresh even less) to be effective. This deck requires a package of like 16 creatures to be effective. If the slivers don't fly, they bite it to a single Goyf, even when there are 3 of them. CounterSliver can't effectively cut creatures to make room for CB/Top, like Thresh does. I see almost no reason to run this deck over Thresh, except for probably a better aggro matchup. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.


Madness lost viability pre-FS. Can't blame that on Goyf.

Why is this?


Nimble Mongoose only recently fell out of use, and that was more because of Relic of Progentus than Tarmogoyf. And once Threshold adapts to Relic, it will be used again.

I agree here. Goyf doesn't invalidate Mongoose.


Jotun Grunt is still played, both in Death and Taxes and Zoo decks. 4/4 for 1W that hurts Tarmogoyfs and graveyard-based decks with it's Cumulative Upkeep? Very useful.

Still, when gives the choice, any deck will always play Goyf over Grunt. I don't see why D&T doesn't run Goyf by the way. Why is this?


The three creatures banned in Legacy are banned because they are crucial parts of a Combo engine that basically say "I win" when they resolve. Tarmogoyf is just a vanilla, al biet efficient, beater that does nothing. A typical Goyf gives you FIVE TURNS to answer it. Worldgorger Dragon, Hermit Druid, and Metalworker give you ZERO or ONE TURN to answer it.

There's no reason to compare Goyf to any other creature on the banned list. It's already been stated that Goyf would be banned for the reason that it warps the format too much, not because it's hard to answer.


Your reasoning for banning Goyf is atrocious. It's a simple creature with no protection and no evasion. Goyf, by himself, does not win games unless the person facing the Goyf is a total idiot.

The fact that Goyf doesn't win the game on it's own is not relevant. Again, we're discussing the banning of the card because it warps the format. It's not because the card is inheretly too powerfull, it's because it is too powerfull relative to the other options of creatures in the format.
Besides, there are plenty of cards on the banned list that have been banned for other reasons than the fact that they win the game on their own.

[Solaran_X]

Legacy and Vintage are not formats based on the combat step - the power level of blue is simply too high for that to consistently happen. Granted, it doesn't invalidate the strategy, but it will never be dominant in very competitive venues.
Top 8 from GP: Chicago (1230+ players attended)
1st: Nassif's Odd Deck (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
2nd: CounterTop (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
3rd: Eva Green (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
4th: Dragon Stompy (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
5th: Dead Eva (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
6th: Ad Nauseum Tendrils (Combo, won via Storm)
7th: Canadian Thresh/Thrash (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
8th: Naya Burn (Aggro, won via Combat)

I think you underestimate the Attack Step in Legacy. Vintage, I won't argue about it. But Legacy revolves a lot around turning men sideways for the win.


I don't care about the strength of the color pie as long as we all aren't running some combination of three colors in our decks because the strength of those three colors makes splashing worthless. Color pies are for Limited, Standard, and Extended (more particularly once fetches rotate out). We have fetches in this format and the lands to make those fetches fantastic. However, Goyf is starting to change the colors decks are running and splashing for in very large numbers. Splashing and working with not-so-easy manabases is something I like to see in this format, but when a format has severe problems dealing with Wasteland->Extirpate, it is because something is truly wrong (and this isn't just Goyf's problem).
In Legacy, with access to fetch lands, real dual lands, and Rav Block shock lands...you'll rarely see "working with not-so-easy manabases". Wasteland/Extirpate was only really an issue in Europe, and it was dealt with rather quickly. While people don't split their duals between true and shocklands in the States very often, we do run a large amount of basic lands (in comparison to Europe) and as few duals as possible to enable a smooth mana curve with as few issues as possible.

Look at our DTB section. Currently in DTB are these decks:

Merfolk
Survival
Aggro-Loam
Vial Goblins
Landstill (various versions)
Threshold (various versions)
Ad Nauseum Tendrils
Ichorid

3 of those 8 archetypes run Tarmogoyf. The rest run just fine without him. I won't go through all the Established Decks, but a quick skim shows about (or less than) half of those also utilize Tarmogoyf. It's not as wide spread as a lot of people believe it is. Tarmogoyf also doesn't, contrary to popular belief, carry bad decks through to win tournaments. Almost any deck that wins a tournament could very likely have won it without Tarmogoyf.


Goyf has severely weakened the appearance of AEther Vial, Suicide strategies (or simply caused it to go a different route), and has forced most control decks to run more blockers or other forms of stealing/creature removal even without the presence of aggro decks. It is time for Goyf to go, have an errata put on it, or for a few hate cards to be printed that specifically make it permanently suck (not like Relic).
Æther Vial hasn't been hampered by Tarmogoyf. Vial Goblins are still a DTB, and two other Vial-based decks (Death and Taxes, and CounterSliver/MeatHooks) are still going strong.

Suicide strategies are still strong also. Eva Green (Suicide/g) took a Top 8 finish at GP: Chicago, although it runs it's own Goyfs. Deadguy Ale (Suicide/w) and Red Death (Suicide/r) are still played successfully from time to time.

And you still seem to be underestimating the presence of Aggro-based strategies in Legacy. During my 6 rounds of GP: Chicago (6-3, due to 3 byes from a Trial), I only ran into one deck that didn't utilize an Aggro strategy. That was a Landstill deck. I ran against Vial Goblins, Affinity, Survival Advantage, CounterSlivers, and Sea Stompy for the other five rounds.

Tarmogoyf does not need to go. Tarmogoyf is perfectly fine, as long as you aren't wowed by it's price tag (that's part of the reason I have foil Tarmogoyfs - try to distract lesser skilled players by the monetary value of my Goyfs and the rest of my RGb Loam deck) or have a pathological hatred of it and get a bad case of tunnel vision when one hits the table. Personally, I don't see how you could errata it (and Wizards has given up doing errata that fundamentally changes a card). And as for making hate that makes it permanently suck...it already exists.


Spell Snare
Force of Will
Daze
Counterspell
Counterbalance // Sensei's Divining Top
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Putrefy
Mortify
Smother
Oblivion Ring
Engineered Explosives
Sower of Temptation
Threads of Disloyalty
Vindicate
Bitterblossom
Terror
Shriekmaw
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progentus
Leyline of the Void

Pretty much every color has an answer to Tarmogoyf, including green (which can run it's own Goyfs to infinitely chump block the other Tarmogoyfs). And that entire list is just off the top of my head in about 30 seconds.

[Solaran_X]

Death and Taxes is honestly not such a good deck. It's rarely played anymore. The mere existence of the deck doesn't prove anything.
Death and Taxes is aimed towards the American metagame, not the European metagame. What's good in America is not necessarily good in Europe, and vice versa.


This deck is inferior to Eva Green. There is absolutely no reason not to splash to Green and play Goyf.
Eva Green is the Suicide/g variant of old school Suicide. Deadguy Ale is still played in America with some frequency.


That's not even true. No one plays this deck.
Maybe not in the Netherlands. But Red Death (Suicide/r) still sees play in America.


Thresh or NLU require a package of about 10 creatures (tempo thresh even less) to be effective. This deck requires a package of like 16 creatures to be effective. If the slivers don't fly, they bite it to a single Goyf, even when there are 3 of them. CounterSliver can't effectively cut creatures to make room for CB/Top, like Thresh does. I see almost no reason to run this deck over Thresh, except for probably a better aggro matchup. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
First off, CounterSlivers runs Swords to Plowshares - which directly eliminates Tarmogoyf, with counter backup (Force of Will and Daze). It also runs Brainstorm and Ponder to dig for more Slivers to improve existing Slivers, Æther Vial to cast Slivers for free, and enough Slivers to give any Aggro deck a run for it's money. Let's say you got a Tarmogoyf and I have a Muscle Sliver, a Sinew Sliver, and a Plated Sliver (typical for turn 3 for CounterSliver). That gives me 3 3/4s to deal with a Tarmogoyf, which on turn 3 may be a 3/4 or a 4/5 itself (typically). And as Slivers further develops, Goyf has no chance.


Why is this?
Not entirely sure. But Madness was basically dead around the time Time Spiral became legal.


I agree here. Goyf doesn't invalidate Mongoose.
We agree on something!


Still, when gives the choice, any deck will always play Goyf over Grunt. I don't see why D&T doesn't run Goyf by the way. Why is this?
Most R/G/W Zoo builds run Grunt AND Tarmogoyf. D&T doesn't run Goyf because it's the current White Weenie build and has more efficient ways to deal with Goyf than it's own Goyf and more efficient (for it's design) creatures/kill conditions.


There's no reason to compare Goyf to any other creature on the banned list. It's already been stated that Goyf would be banned for the reason that it warps the format too much, not because it's hard to answer.
But there is absolutely no proof it warps the format, aside from complaints from people who A) can't afford their own Goyfs and/or B) can't understand the idea of spot removal in a creature oriented format.


The fact that Goyf doesn't win the game on it's own is not relevant. Again, we're discussing the banning of the card because it warps the format. It's not because the card is inheretly too powerfull, it's because it is too powerfull relative to the other options of creatures in the format.
It is perfectly relevant. The three creatures that are banned are combo engines that win the game when they resolve (or hit the graveyard). Tarmogoyf does no such think. It needs to swing, on average, for five turns without being removed or blocked to win the game. That is not format warping. That is not too powerful. Tombstalker is arguably more powerful than Tarmogoyf since it's usually a 5/5 Flyer for BB. Phyrexian Dreadnought is arguably more powerful than Tarmogoyf since it's usually a 12/12 Trampler for 1U or 2U. Should we ban them also? A turn 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought puts you on a much heavier clock than Tarmogoyf. A turn 4 Tombstalker puts you on a much heavier clock than Tarmogoyf. Why are they perfectly fine while Goyf is overpowered and format warping?


Besides, there are plenty of cards on the banned list that have been banned for other reasons than the fact that they win the game on their own.
Most of which are leftovers from when Legacy "shared" it's banned list with Vintage, back when it was Type I.V and Type I. Most of those cards could safely come off the banned list now.

[Bahamuth]

Okay sure, I'll give you the decks.
Although I do belive that you make CounterSliver sound much better than it is. The deck still has to play without doubt more than 2 creatures to get through a Goyf. While this is not only bad deck-contruction wise, it means the deck inevitably has to use more cards to beat a single one. Thresh has the opportunity to retain alot of these cards, which it can use to deny the plan.
CounterSlivers dies to Cb/Top, given they have no Vial. Even when they have a Vial, Thresh has other answers, such as Grip for Vial (probably not boarded in though), but moreimportantly, EE. The fact that CounterSlivers has to overextend to reach the same board position as Thresh, makes itmore susceptible to cards like EE and Deed. Also, Thresh can 2-for-1 Counterstilvers quite easily bu removing one Muscle and blocking another sliver.

Anyway, back to the banned list. Let me put it like this. Let's assume we all agree Goyf warps the format. In this situation, comparison to the rest of the cards on the banned list is of no importance, because it won't stop Goyf from warping the format at all. That sounds like a weak point...

What I mean is that there can be different reasons for banning cards. I'm sure I don't have to sum them up for you, but they range from many causes. We can't compare Goyf to the other cards, since the reason of banning we're discussing here is a different one from the reason the other cards were banned in the past. It does not matter how many turns we have to answer Goyf, or wether other cards kill faster than Goyf, it matters that Goyf assumingly warps the format.
In fact, the only cards that actually win the game right now, are those that enable certain combo's. Black Lotus doesn't win the game immediately, but it's still banned for other reasons. Just like that Goyf would be banned for other reasons.

[rleader]

Beating CB/SDT isn't hard if you're prepared for it (I actually welcome CB/SDT matches). In fact, it's ridiculously easy to get around.

Word, bro, I'd have crushed Nassif, too! We should make a facebook group for people who know NLU folds to 6cc spells!

Or something.

[Aleksandr]

Hey guys, I have an idea. Why doesn't Wizards just go into our DTB forum, and ban every card in every deck listed there? That way, we can totally throw out our boring, overpowered cards and dig out the exciting old crappy cards we all want to play with so badly. The format would be so much more interesting and enjoyable!

God, I hate playing with good cards.

Some people already quoted this, but it is worthy quoting once again..

EDIT: I hope that this is the last time I contibute to any R/B discussion, but hence a few words from me...

1) I have sometimes a feeling that many of those people who scream "Ban XYZ!" just dont have the named card and in their enviousness they just want all other people devoid of it. This is especially true for the "new" staples like LED, Dreadnought, Goyf, to lesser extent also SDT.

2) Every three months around the Day:21st, there is an influx of messages on boards that have something in common, no matter what format they focus at. Some of those contributors are usual change-cultists; because of their progressionists mentality they adore change just for the change itself...

I dont think that both these points are enough to justify any bannings.

3)

OMG, Top slows the format sooo much!

OMG, Goyf hastens the format sooo much!
Not that these arguments are invalid, but you may see that they both work against each other. So what do the people want? Fast format with Goyf? Slow with Top? I dont understand it... Well, in fact I do - they want DCI to ban strong cards that they dont own.

With Counterbalance in mix things get a bit messy. But still: I dont think that anyone who hates to play against CB/SDT would welcome the bannings of Goyf, because AFAIK, he is the best creature that one can get into play before CB-lock hardens its stranglehold. With Mogg Fanatic in play, you apply little pressure, so the opponent may strengthen his position and inevitably win. Goyf counters this tactics.
Obv. there is a problem with decks that incorporate both CB and Goyf, because they can swithc the roles (ctrl/aggro), or even play both of them at once . Playing against lock.dec (and CB decks are prison decks to some extent..) is very frustrating. Add Goyf and now these decks lose their main weakness - common inability to finish the game in time - and become much more powerful. But is this a reason for bannings? I am not sure.

a) Playing against Staxx/Pox is much more frustrating but I dont hear ppl whinning.
b) There are number of decks that laugh at CB and/or Goyf. (Ichorid, Goblins, Stompy, TES...)

Anyhow, CB/SDT/Goyf.dec are the first somehow relevant argument for ban of Goyf.

4) The "Oops, I win!" factor of Goyf is a bit overrated. Heck, we play format where third-turn kill are not unheard of! Singleton Goyf can hardly win game before turn five (four at best), because unlike Tendrils, he has summoning sickness.

5) Goyf makes many decks viable and I dont think that he is such a scourge of diversity. Imagine consecutive decks without Goyf and think how their compettivness changes and also about some some errsatz for Goyf:

- GoyfSligh: a bit worse. Werebear, Dryad, Grunt
- Team America: unlikely to work. Maybe with Dreadnought?
- NQG: a bit worse. Domain creatures or Dryad. Maybe Bear, but dont forget on Relic. NO->Progenitus?
- Green Landstill: no problem. But the decks starts to lose to time limit once again.
- Non-green Landstill: their chances improve.
- Eva Green: IDK. Maybe it will shift to Red Death and/or Negator, but once Goyf is outta picture, Bolts become a factor, so Negator = nono
- Survival: good. With their toolbox they can win even without Goyf.
- Aggro Loam: oh crap. Relic was not enough, so now we really rely only on Crusher, or what?
- etc.

For every deck that dies to Goyf, you may find one that he makes viable. Am I right?

6) The color pie + strength of cards - well, I like what was already written above: every color has its powerful cards that also inspire the game differently - blue and its tricks, etc. So, we have the strongest creature. Better yet in green? Hurray!
If we get rid of the most powerful creature of the format, another one takes his place... Wil we ban again?

7) Otoh, I can imagine, that Goyf would be condemned to Vintage only, because he is extremely strong and unlike LED, FoW, Nought, etc. he does not need a whole deck to be build around him. This statement also counteracts my previous thesis
If we get rid of the most powerful creature of the format, another one takes his place, because trying to do the Goyfs work with non-Goyf creature is not that easy - Nought, Stalker or Enforcer are not that easily splashable and their p/t vs. cost ratio is not that absurd, too.

8)
Goyf is stupid, now WotC cannot print more powerful creature than Goyf.
And? Do you really want them to print such a creature? Isnt Goyf enough, or what?

9)
Now everybody plays only Goyf and other creatures are not played!
Yeah, and it is discriminative and politically incorrect! We must undo such injustice. Call the president. Now!

10)
Now (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/FUT/en-us/Card136041.jpg)everybody (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/RAV/en-us/Card83771.jpg)plays (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ONS/en-us/Card40193.jpg)only (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PS/en-us/Card26591.jpg)Goyf (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/FUT/en-us/Card136142.jpg)and (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/DST/en-us/Card50943.jpg)other (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/TOR/en-us/Card35923.jpg)creatures (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/5DN/en-us/Card51628.jpg)are (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/MI/en-us/Card3263.jpg)not (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ST/en-us/Card5134.jpg)played! (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ST/en-us/Card5196.jpg)

11) After all, it is just a vanilla bear, although big one. I dont believe that he would be removed anytime soon.

.
.
.
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.
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Ban SDT. Not Goyf.

[Michael Keller]

Okay, one more time: It doesn't matter if you play a ton of answers to Tarmogoyf, you will still lose to it if you can't find them and resolve them quickly.

You can lose to a Marsh Viper hitting you just as many times, if not, less. That dies to the same spells Tarmogoyf does. So what's your point?

Seriously, Tarmogoyf is just a creature. And there are plenty of removal spells in the format that can take care of him fast and efficiently. And if they can't off the bat, chances are he's only a 3/4 anyhow. And assuming you yourself play a competitive Magic deck, I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard squaring the deal.

[scrow213]

You can lose to a Marsh Viper hitting you just as many times, if not, less. That dies to the same spells Tarmogoyf does. So what's your point?

Seriously, Tarmogoyf is just a creature. And there are plenty of removal spells in the format that can take care of him fast and efficiently. And if they can't off the bat, chances are he's only a 3/4 anyhow. And assuming you yourself play a competitive Magic deck, I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard squaring the deal.

Marsh Viper doesn't obsolete nearly every other creature in the format. That is the issue, not that he is absurdly hard to handle. Think about it, what creatures can Wizards possibly print that will be played in Legacy now?

[Damnosus]

Marsh Viper doesn't obsolete nearly every other creature in the format. That is the issue, not that he is absurdly hard to handle. Think about it, what creatures can Wizards possibly print that will be played in Legacy now?

Well let's see what has been seeing play that was recently created (say from the last 4 sets): Cursecatcher, Swans of Bryn Argoll (somewhat), Ashenmoor Gouger, Demigod of Revenge, Vexing shusher, Kitchen Finks, Flickerwisp, Wake Thrasher, Figure of destiny, Ranger of Eos (surprisingly), Master of Etherium, Wild Nacatyl, Rhox War Monk, Tidehollow Sculler, Wooly Thoctar, and a few others that show up from time to time.

While none of these creatures are as powerful as tarmogoyf, they are definitely more interesting. One thing that I think is important about having goyf remain in legacy is that it prompts any creatures that do wind up seeing play in legacy to be far more complex than what we already have: Goyf prompts the printing of creatures that can potentially be just as effective as goyf, but require a higher standard of playskill and deck building. I guess in a sense goyf's presence prevents any further dumbing down of the game (though admittedly he did dumb it down quite a bit).

Just my two cents.

[scrow213]

One thing that I think is important about having goyf remain in legacy is that it prompts any creatures that do wind up seeing play in legacy to be far more complex than what we already have: Goyf prompts the printing of creatures that can potentially be just as effective as goyf, but require a higher standard of playskill and deck building. I guess in a sense goyf's presence prevents any further dumbing down of the game (though admittedly he did dumb it down quite a bit).

Just my two cents.

So you are saying that to balance out 'goyf, Wizards just needs to print better creatures? Or just play 'goyf forever? Sounds spectacular to me.

[rleader]

Goyf prompts the printing of creatures that can potentially be just as effective as goyf, but require a higher standard of playskill and deck building.

Not so much if the "more interesting stuff" is pretty much always used in addition to goyf, as substandard goyfs 5-8.

I'm not really on any side in this debate, although I think it's interesting that only one side is allowed to make stupid hyperbolic comments (e.g. "countertop and goyf are weak, I beat them with Squire.dec, anyone who can't just sucks"). Because of that, where one side is supposedly positioned as macho and reasonable and the other side is positioned as whining ninnies, it's not really a fair argument to all participants. And there really isn't any room left for people who are in the middle, not for bannings but find goyf a bit regrettable.

[raharu]

So you are saying that to balance out 'goyf, Wizards just needs to print better creatures? Or just play 'goyf forever? Sounds spectacular to me.
I think he means that instead of printing Vanilla beats, in order to create creatures worth playing, they need interesting abilities, which in turn makes the combat step more interesting, and the game more interesting.

[Damnosus]

I think he means that instead of printing Vanilla beats, in order to create creatures worth playing, they need interesting abilities, which in turn makes the combat step more interesting, and the game more interesting.

Thanks raharu.

Also for that matter, I feel like goyf is decently balanced (not totally though) due to the printing of Relic of Progenitus. Relic is even better as well due to the fact that it isn't simply an anti-Goyf silver bullet, as it also hits a good deal of other decks: decks can get away with running it in the main. The printing of relic was very smart on the part of Wizards.

[scrow213]

I guess I agree that it doesn't necessarily need to be banned, it is just unfortunate that they printed it.

As for non-vanilla beats, there are a ton of creatures with abilities that are still not played. So they have to print something with an ability that outweighs a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2 mana. Something like Bob.

[Damnosus]

Oh I totally agree that is unfortunate that they printed it. But at least they are giving us Bob-esque creatures to deal with it. Additionally, at least we know they will never print anything worse than Goyf (unless the staff got really really stoned for several months straight or something...).

[scrow213]

Oh I totally agree that is unfortunate that they printed it. But at least they are giving us Bob-esque creatures to deal with it. Additionally, at least we know they will never print anything worse than Goyf (unless the staff got really really stoned for several months straight or something...).

No they will assuredly print a lot that is worse than 'goyf. None of it will see play in Legacy though.

[TheRock]

Top 8 from GP: Chicago (1230+ players attended)
1st: Nassif's Odd Deck (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
2nd: CounterTop (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
3rd: Eva Green (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
4th: Dragon Stompy (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
5th: Dead Eva (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
6th: Ad Nauseum Tendrils (Combo, won via Storm)
7th: Canadian Thresh/Thrash (Aggro-Control, won via Combat)
8th: Naya Burn (Aggro, won via Combat)

I think you underestimate the Attack Step in Legacy. Vintage, I won't argue about it. But Legacy revolves a lot around turning men sideways for the win.

Of course Legacy involves attacking for the win. Every deck that isn't TPS has to attack for the win in Vintage too - your argument makes no sense. Except for Suicide and Naya Burn, those decks generally put themselves in a fantastic position and just use creatures to finish people off (although Suicide does that too, it really needs to finish people off quickly). These aren't games decided by the combat step - they are decided by counter wars, sorceries, and end steps.



In Legacy, with access to fetch lands, real dual lands, and Rav Block shock lands...you'll rarely see "working with not-so-easy manabases". Wasteland/Extirpate was only really an issue in Europe, and it was dealt with rather quickly. While people don't split their duals between true and shocklands in the States very often, we do run a large amount of basic lands (in comparison to Europe) and as few duals as possible to enable a smooth mana curve with as few issues as possible.

That's why Extirpate is in almost every Landstill sideboard, European or not...

Running basic lands doesn't mean you may not be left with a manabase of 19 blue sources, 14 green sources, 12 white sources, and 12 red sources. That's the root of the argument - you simply have to make an exchange of either horribly dying to Wasteland or simply not getting colors.

And that "we" stuff sounds very rude to me. This is a game, is it not?



Look at our DTB section. Currently in DTB are these decks:

Merfolk
Survival
Aggro-Loam
Vial Goblins
Landstill (various versions)
Threshold (various versions)
Ad Nauseum Tendrils
Ichorid

3 of those 8 archetypes run Tarmogoyf. The rest run just fine without him. I won't go through all the Established Decks, but a quick skim shows about (or less than) half of those also utilize Tarmogoyf. It's not as wide spread as a lot of people believe it is. Tarmogoyf also doesn't, contrary to popular belief, carry bad decks through to win tournaments. Almost any deck that wins a tournament could very likely have won it without Tarmogoyf.

Top decks? Here's the top decks in this format:

Threshold
Landstill

Everything else is on a different tier although still extremely competitive. Some Landstill decks run Goyf just to block other Goyfs (I'm not on that side of the fence personally), but all Threshold builds run Goyf. It also doesn't help that there were more Goyfs played at that tournament than Forces.



Æther Vial hasn't been hampered by Tarmogoyf. Vial Goblins are still a DTB, and two other Vial-based decks (Death and Taxes, and CounterSliver/MeatHooks) are still going strong.

Suicide strategies are still strong also. Eva Green (Suicide/g) took a Top 8 finish at GP: Chicago, although it runs it's own Goyfs. Deadguy Ale (Suicide/w) and Red Death (Suicide/r) are still played successfully from time to time.

And you still seem to be underestimating the presence of Aggro-based strategies in Legacy. During my 6 rounds of GP: Chicago (6-3, due to 3 byes from a Trial), I only ran into one deck that didn't utilize an Aggro strategy. That was a Landstill deck. I ran against Vial Goblins, Affinity, Survival Advantage, CounterSlivers, and Sea Stompy for the other five rounds.

Tarmogoyf does not need to go. Tarmogoyf is perfectly fine, as long as you aren't wowed by it's price tag (that's part of the reason I have foil Tarmogoyfs - try to distract lesser skilled players by the monetary value of my Goyfs and the rest of my RGb Loam deck) or have a pathological hatred of it and get a bad case of tunnel vision when one hits the table. Personally, I don't see how you could errata it (and Wizards has given up doing errata that fundamentally changes a card). And as for making hate that makes it permanently suck...it already exists.

Vial was in about 40% of decks before Goyf was printed. It is now in about 20-25% of decks because of Merfolk and before that deck became popular, it was in less than 15% of decks. Just like Madness and many other synergistic 12-20 card strategies, Goyf has made them far less attractive options.

I will concede the argument on Suicide variants.

As for permanent hate, I don't mean something that stops ONE Goyf - sorry for not being a bit more clear on that. I meant something that is either extremely difficult to remove and has protection from green, or just destroys all of the Goyfs in an opponent's deck. However, that doesn't seem likely since it would have a bad impact on other formats, and the last thing I would want is to ruin the fun for people in other formats.

[Volt]

I'm not really on any side in this debate, although I think it's interesting that only one side is allowed to make stupid hyperbolic comments (e.g. "countertop and goyf are weak, I beat them with Squire.dec, anyone who can't just sucks"). Because of that, where one side is supposedly positioned as macho and reasonable and the other side is positioned as whining ninnies, it's not really a fair argument to all participants.

Discussing potential bannings always polarizes people like this. Even when Flash was running rampant, and 90% of us were clamoring for it to get the axe, there was still that 10% that was like "Quitcherbitchin ya little girls. Flash ain't that bad. Toughen up and learn to live with the Flash, like me. I'm so cool. Excuse me while I adjust my sunglasses and take another drag." Or something.

[Solaran_X]

Of course Legacy involves attacking for the win. Every deck that isn't TPS has to attack for the win in Vintage too - your argument makes no sense. Except for Suicide and Naya Burn, those decks generally put themselves in a fantastic position and just use creatures to finish people off (although Suicide does that too, it really needs to finish people off quickly). These aren't games decided by the combat step - they are decided by counter wars, sorceries, and end steps.
Then you've just contradicted yourself. You said Vintage and Legacy didn't revolve around the Attack Step, when they do. And do you seriously think decks like Suicide/x (Deadguy Ale, Red Death, Eva Green, etc., etc.) and Threshold wait until they have lethal damage on the board and THEN swing? Because they don't. They attack as often as they can. That is why Legacy revolves around the Attack Step for the win.

That's why Extirpate is in almost every Landstill sideboard, European or not...


Running basic lands doesn't mean you may not be left with a manabase of 19 blue sources, 14 green sources, 12 white sources, and 12 red sources. That's the root of the argument - you simply have to make an exchange of either horribly dying to Wasteland or simply not getting colors.

And that "we" stuff sounds very rude to me. This is a game, is it not?
Mana bases really aren't as complex as you make it. Between Rav/real duals, fetch lands, basics, and Moxen...it's very easy to make a mana base that supports 3/4 colors without worrying about being taken off a color by Extirpate. My deck has multiple double and even a triple color casting cost of various colors, and still functions just fine against Wasteland/Blood Moon. Hell, I even run Blood Moons of my own.


Top decks? Here's the top decks in this format:

Threshold
Landstill

Everything else is on a different tier although still extremely competitive. Some Landstill decks run Goyf just to block other Goyfs (I'm not on that side of the fence personally), but all Threshold builds run Goyf. It also doesn't help that there were more Goyfs played at that tournament than Forces.
That's a very conceited comment. Legacy doesn't have Threshold and Landstill as top dogs only. The top tier is a lot more diverse than you make it sound, but I suppose it supports your argument better if the top tier is only two archetypes of deck and one of them always runs Goyf and one of them occasionally runs Goyf (although I've never seen Goyf in Landstill).

And I'm sure if every decklist was tallied at GP: Chicago, your last statement would be invalidated. But in regards to the Top 8, that just shows that Threshold and Landstill (one of which always runs Goyf, both of which always run Force of Will) aren't the kings you make them out to be. Once again, you contradict yourself.


Vial was in about 40% of decks before Goyf was printed. It is now in about 20-25% of decks because of Merfolk and before that deck became popular, it was in less than 15% of decks. Just like Madness and many other synergistic 12-20 card strategies, Goyf has made them far less attractive options.
Before Future Sight, Æther Vial was used in Vial Goblins and CounterSlivers. After Future Sight, Æther Vial is used in Vial Goblins, CounterSlivers, Death and Taxes, and Merfolk. That seems like an increase in Æther Vial usage, not a decrease. But I suck at math.

Madness was dead/dying before Future Sight was even released. Tarmogoyf had nothing to do with it's passing.


As for permanent hate, I don't mean something that stops ONE Goyf - sorry for not being a bit more clear on that. I meant something that is either extremely difficult to remove and has protection from green, or just destroys all of the Goyfs in an opponent's deck. However, that doesn't seem likely since it would have a bad impact on other formats, and the last thing I would want is to ruin the fun for people in other formats.
You mean like...oh...Runed Halo? Gives you Protection from Tarmogoyf? How about kill/discard one Goyf, and then Extirpate it? How about landing a Progenitus on turn 3 after they drop a Tarmogoyf? How about Moat?

You don't need new cards to deal with Tarmogoyf (although some of them help). There are plenty of answers in older sets.

[Solaran_X]

Discussing potential bannings always polarizes people like this. Even when Flash was running rampant, and 90% of us were clamoring for it to get the axe, there was still that 10% that was like "Quitcherbitchin ya little girls. Flash ain't that bad. Toughen up and learn to live with the Flash, like me. I'm so cool. Excuse me while I adjust my sunglasses and take another drag." Or something.
Except for one small difference. If Flash resolved, that was game. Right there. No ifs, ands, or buts. Flash resolved, opponent lost.

Tarmogoyf isn't like that. It resolves, and it still takes 4-5 turns to kill someone as long as it isn't killed/blocked/bounced/stolen.

[Bardo]

Except for one small difference. If Flash resolved, that was game. Right there. No ifs, ands, or buts. Flash resolved, opponent lost.

Tarmogoyf isn't like that. It resolves, and it still takes 4-5 turns to kill someone as long as it isn't killed/blocked/bounced/stolen.

You missed Volt's point. Discussions of the B&R list and what should/shouldn't be banned always polarize people and create strong for/against camps -- even during the Flash-era, which seemed like a no-brainer to almost everyone.

[Volt]

You missed Volt's point. Discussions of the B&R list and what should/shouldn't be banned always polarize people and create strong for/against camps -- even during the Flash-era, which seemed like a no-brainer to almost everyone.

Right. I should probably end every post from now on with the disclaimer that I don't care whether goyf gets banned. This discussion was supposed to be about CB-Top, but I guess it isn't surprising that it devolved into an argoyfument.

[Deirex]

Frankly it seems like this discussion is getting out of hand. As a comboplayer sure I consider CB-Top and Goyf some of the worst things to face but they are by no means as gamebreaking as Flash was and don't warrant banning.

Personally I would've liked CB to Counter ALL spells played not just those of the opponent, that would´ve made it more tricky (and fun) to play albeit more timeconsuming perhaps but that's not the point.

In due time I'm sure something will come along to make CB top less than the monster it is today. Like Ad Nauseam did for Storm vs Stifle.

We'll just have to be patient because I don't think anyone would say that facing a CB-Top deck is instaloss.

[scrow213]

My gripe isn't even a power-level gripe. It is more of a "can't play any other good creatures because 'goyf is better" complaint.

[Solaran_X]

My gripe isn't even a power-level gripe. It is more of a "can't play any other good creatures because 'goyf is better" complaint.
But there are dozens of other creatures played. The rest of the creatures, pre- and post-Goyf, were never played. Your point is moot. Tarmogoyf only directly obsoleted ONE creature. Werebear. Creatures that aren't played with Goyf in the format are the same ones that weren't played with Werebear in the format.

[Bardo]

My gripe isn't even a power-level gripe. It is more of a "can't play any other good creatures because 'goyf is better" complaint.

Tarmogoyf is clearly a very-widely played duder, since he costs two and is extremely splashable.

Regardless, here are the creatures played in the GP: Chicago T8:

24 Tarmogoyf
10 Dark Confidant
5 Tombstalker
5 Sower of Temptation
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Trinket Mage
3 Taurean Mauler
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator
(4 Simian Spirit Guide)

That's 17 dudes + Goyf + SSG (which is more a mana source than a dude; if you want to count him, the number is 18).

For such a distorting creature, many other dudes are playable in this format. That's because Tarmogoyf can only do two things: attack and block. He does those things well, since he's so fucking cheap, but that's all he does. Other than the 1-drops in this list (Goose + Kird Ape/Kitty) and Nantuko Shade, everything in the list does something important (draws cards, forces discard, pings, Blood Moons the board, flies, etc.).

[Volt]

Tarmogoyf is clearly a very-widely played duder, since he costs two and is extremely splashable.

Regardless, here are the creatures played in the GP: Chicago T8:

24 Tarmogoyf
10 Dark Confidant
5 Tombstalker
5 Sower of Temptation
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Trinket Mage
3 Taurean Mauler
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator
(4 Simian Spirit Guide)

That's 17 dudes + Goyf + SSG (which is more a mana source than a dude; if you want to count him, the number is 18).

For such a distorting creature, many other dudes are playable in this format. That's because Tarmogoyf can only do two things: attack and block. He does those things well, since he's so fucking cheap, but that's all he does. Other than the 1-drops in this list (Goose + Kird Ape/Kitty) and Nantuko Shade, everything in the list does something important (draws cards, forces discard, pings, Blood Moons the board, flies, etc.).

Nobody expects Tarmogoyf to always get there by himself.

Just as a counterpoint, here's the list of creatures that appeared in Top 8 decks that didn't also include Tarmogoyf:

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Taurean Mauler

Only the Dragon Stompy deck, in other words.

Again, I don't really care if Tarmogoyf gets banned. Just trying to keep it real.

[Michael Keller]

I think the entire Magic gaming community knows Tarmogoyf is really f'in good, that's just beating a dead horse with a stick.

There really shouldn't be an argument on him anymore. He does not distort the format at all. He's just a really good all-around creature and people know this. The trick is how you yourself deal with Wall of Tarmogoyf when there are two in play facing each other. Everyone seems to be under the idea that he dies to generally everything, but his real strength is in staring down 3/3's and 4/4's (Mongoose, especially).

He's splashable in anything playing green. Ask yourselves this question: If you decide to put together a new deck, do you automatically say to yourself, "Four 'goyfs..."?

[Jak]

But there are dozens of other creatures played. The rest of the creatures, pre- and post-Goyf, were never played. Your point is moot. Tarmogoyf only directly obsoleted ONE creature. Werebear. Creatures that aren't played with Goyf in the format are the same ones that weren't played with Werebear in the format.

This is wrong.

I think the big thing people are missing is that goyf took creatures of all colors and sizes and casting costs out of the format. It isn't that he is better than a specific option it is that every other option in other colors is pretty poor compared to goyf.

[Solaran_X]

I think the entire Magic gaming community knows Tarmogoyf is really f'in good, that's just beating a dead horse with a stick.

There really shouldn't be an argument on him anymore. He does not distort the format at all. He's just a really good all-around creature and people know this. The trick is how you yourself deal with Wall of Tarmogoyf when there are two in play facing each other. Everyone seems to be under the idea that he dies to generally everything, but his real strength is in staring down 3/3's and 4/4's (Mongoose, especially).

He's splashable in anything playing green. Ask yourselves this question: If you decide to put together a new deck, do you automatically say to yourself, "Four 'goyfs..."?
I can answer that right now. I play RGb Aggro-Loam. My main deck creature slots are:
3x Terravore
3x Countryside Crusher
3x Dark Confidant
1x Eternal Witness
4x Vexing Shusher

Terravore is my main big beats. */* Trample (averages 10/10, although yesterday I had two 15/15s) for 1GG.

Countryside Crusher is my secondary big beats. A base 3/3 for 1RR that thins my deck (and feeds my Terravores), and gets bigger with every land it mills into my graveyard, every land I cycle, every time I pop a Wasteland or get Wastelanded, and tends to end games after a fat Devastating Dreams.

Dark Confidant. 1B draw engine that usually comes down turn 1 and swings in a few times before dying or just sitting back to draw me cards.

Eternal Witness. Basically, with Volrath's Stronghold, it's a 2BGG infinite recursion engine for my graveyard. Also a very good chump blocker (since it has to die to work for my engine).

Vexing Shusher. Shuts down Force of Will. Shuts down Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top. Shuts down Counterspell (yes, it's played in many Landstill builds). Very useful main deck choice when confronted with a counter-based control metagame. In fact, the look on a Landstill player's face when they drop Standstill and then I drop Vexing Shusher to break it in game 1 is priceless. Or when it comes down turn 1 and then a Chalice of the Void for 1 comes down turn 2 with Shusher protection.

I used to run Tarmogoyf main...but in Aggro-Loam (at least), he's a very underwhelming do nothing creature. Almost every time I drew Tarmogoyf game 1 when he was main, I wished he was any other creature in the deck. But now I run him sideboard, since I don't entirely discount his value in the aggro match up.

Tarmogoyf is definitely a very good creature. Best creature in the format? Definitely not. But a very good and efficient beater and, later, blocker. But just because a deck runs green doesn't mean Goyf is actually good in it, and not every deck splashes green for Tarmogoyf.


This is wrong.

I think the big thing people are missing is that goyf took creatures of all colors and sizes and casting costs out of the format. It isn't that he is better than a specific option it is that every other option in other colors is pretty poor compared to goyf.
Tarmogoyf took ONE creature out of the format. It directly replaced Werebear in Threshold as the 2CMC threat. No one else has legitimately named one creature Tarmogoyf forced out of the format that wasn't present in GP: Chicago in dozens of decks.

You are missing that point.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Solaran:

Other creatures that Goyf obsoleted:

Flametongue Kavu
Troll Ascetic
Burning-Tree Shaman
Loxodon Hierarch
Silver Knight
White Knight
Pretty much ever WW 2/2, actually.
Descendant of Kiyomaro
Phyrexian Negator
Rotting Giant
Flesh Reaver

More generally:

Every creature that fights on the ground that

a) Costs more than 1,

b) Isn't Dark Confidant or Trinket Mage, and

c) Isn't currently in a deck called "X Stompy".

Also, to a very large extent, Goblins. Not that that's a huge point against it.

If you're seriously arguing that it's not holding back creature diversity in the format, you're wrong.

@Alix:

Shut it.

[Nihil Credo]

Tarmogoyf took ONE creature out of the format. It directly replaced Werebear in Threshold as the 2CMC threat. No one else has legitimately named one creature Tarmogoyf forced out of the format that wasn't present in GP: Chicago in dozens of decks.

I'm not quite endorsing the banning of Tarmogoyf, but just for the sake of answering your claim:

Wild Mongrel (it wasn't just played in Madness)
Phyrexian Negator
Quirion Dryad
Watchwolf
Burning-Tree Shaman
Loxodon Hierarch
Several "Knights" (WW 2/2 guys with abilities, e.g. Samurai otPC, Silver Knight)
Wall of Blossoms
Wall of Roots

To put it simply, consider all decks in the format that are playing Tarmogoyf, and look at what they would be playing otherwise. Werebear is only one of the answers you'll get.

Also, it's worth noting that Lorwyn and Shards creatures are quite powerful when compared to other blocks, and it's likely that some (more) cards from them could have seen play otherwise (Ashenmoor Gouger comes to mind, while Rhox War Monk would probably be a big contender rather than a support tool).

[kabal]

Other creatures that Goyf obsoleted:

Loxodon Heirarch
Troll Ascetic






Maybe a much more effective argument is to list cards that Tarmogoyf basically trumped out of the format. I'll start with some off the top of my head and if I forget any, please add on.

Loxodon Heirarch
Troll Ascetic


Seriously? They are still played. Just a quick scan of deckcheck of decks in 2008 that top 8 with them was over 100 (70/30 towards Heirarch). This site is pretty much just the European scene.




Other creatures that Goyf obsoleted: Flesh Reaver


Was it really ever played in Legacy?

[etrigan]

That a card obsoletes other cards is not an argument for banning. Lightning Bolt obsoletes Shock. Pernicious Deed obsoletes Wrath of God. This is not an argument.

[Solaran_X]

Solaran:

Other creatures that Goyf obsoleted:

Flametongue Kavu - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Troll Ascetic - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Burning-Tree Shaman - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Loxodon Hierarch - Still played in Legacy BGw Rock
Silver Knight - Still played in sideboard D&T
White Knight - Still played in sideboard D&T
Pretty much ever WW 2/2, actually. - Still played in maindeck D&T
Descendant of Kiyomaro
Phyrexian Negator - Was suboptimal before Goyf...turn 1 Negator meets turn 1 Lightning Bolt and then a clear board
Rotting Giant - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Flesh Reaver - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS

More generally:

Every creature that fights on the ground that

a) Costs more than 1, - Terravore and Countryside Crusher certainly cost more than 1 (3CMC, to be exact) and definitely aren't obsoleted by Tarmogoyf.

b) Isn't Dark Confidant or Trinket Mage, and

c) Isn't currently in a deck called "X Stompy".

Also, to a very large extent, Goblins. Not that that's a huge point against it. Goblins are still a top tier deck. Sorry.

If you're seriously arguing that it's not holding back creature diversity in the format, you're wrong. Tarmogoyf unseated Goblins as the top deck in the format, and it also gave the weapons to lesser decks to become competitive. Tarmogoyf isn't holding back diversity, it CREATED diversity. Or do you want to go back to when Legacy was Vial Goblins, Combo, or don't bother showing up?

@Alix:

Shut it.


I'm not quite endorsing the banning of Tarmogoyf, but just for the sake of answering your claim:

Wild Mongrel (it wasn't just played in Madness)
Phyrexian Negator was a bad card even in it's prime. Tarmogoyf had nothing to do with it going away. Turn 1 Lightning Bolts clearing the Suicide player's board had a lot to do with it going away.
Quirion Dryad is still played in Legacy. Some Threshold lists are using this in lieu of Nimble Mongoose since Relic of Progenitus was printed.
Watchwolf is still played in Legacy Zoo.
Burning-Tree Shaman is something I never saw in Legacy before Future Sight.
Loxodon Hierarch is still played in BGw Rock.
Several "Knights" (WW 2/2 guys with abilities, e.g. Samurai otPC, Silver Knight) are run main deck or sideboard in the current WW deck, Death and Taxes.
Wall of Blossoms
Wall of Roots is used in the new Natural Order Progenitus deck as an acceleration card into the combo, and was run by 7 "Pros" at GP: Chicago, including Menendian.

[Jak]

That a card obsoletes other cards is not an argument for banning. Lightning Bolt obsoletes Shock. Pernicious Deed obsoletes Wrath of God. This is not an argument.

No, you are not understanding. Those cards obsoleted one card. Goyf obsoleted a list of creatures of all sizes, colors, and costs.

And Kabal, those creatures were heavily played before Goyf. Now, you seem them in a few Rock Decks or as a one of in Survival. Give me a break.

Solaran, you may want to take a look at what you just said, then go back and look at what was played in Legacy 2 years ago.

[Volt]

With all due respect to Finn, Death & Taxes is a corner case.

Flametongue Kavu and Troll Ascetic were staples in RGBSA. They also showed up in Stompy and Sligh decks. Flametongues were great at killing Werebears back when people used to play Werebears.

Burning Tree Shaman saw a lot of play in RG Stompy, RG Sligh, and Red Thresh decks.

Phyrexian Negator, Rotting Giant, and Flesh Reaver all saw play in Red Death, which was a popular, competitive deck.

You're correct that Terravore and Countryside Crusher are two creatures that have not been obsoleted. However, the vast majority of Aggro-Loam decks also play Tarmogoyf. You appear to be an exception in that regard.

I'll take your word for it that people still play Loxodon Heirarch in BGw Rock, but Rock decks don't seem to be very competitive right now.

[kabal]

And Kabal, those creatures were heavily played before Goyf. Now, you seem them in a few Rock Decks or as a one of in Survival. Give me a break.

Actually, give me a break. Your quote-on-quote heavily played is not backed by any numbers other than "it was played". Based on some real data again using DeckCheck, the # of times Loxodon Hierarch was apart of a top 8 deck before Goyf was legal 23. Number of times in 2008 ~70.



I'll take your word for it that people still play Loxodon Heirarch in BGw, but Rock decks don't seem to be very competitive right now.

Actually, it is a good which has caused decks like White Threshold to morph into a more NLU style deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Flametongue Kavu - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Troll Ascetic - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Burning-Tree Shaman - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Phyrexian Negator - Was suboptimal before Goyf...turn 1 Negator meets turn 1 Lightning Bolt and then a clear board
Rotting Giant - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS
Flesh Reaver - Never saw this played in Legacy pre-FS

So you're arguing from a position of ignorance. Always a strong call.

I can see why this argument doesn't seem important to someone who never played Legacy before Goyf, but some of us remember more dynamic board scenarios.


Loxodon Hierarch - Still played in Legacy BGw Rock
Silver Knight - Still played in sideboard D&T
White Knight - Still played in sideboard D&T
Pretty much ever WW 2/2, actually. - Still played in maindeck D&T
Descendant of Kiyomaro

Well that's relevant.

Let me clarify; They were played in good decks.

Also, creatures aren't card manipulation spells. Next person to make a Brainstorm comparison gets punched in the face. Brainstorm is the best at a narrow effect that only one color did anyway. Every creature used to have creatures, even Blue.

Also, Terravore, like Progenitus, is hardly relevant because you have to build your deck around it. I would have no problem with Tarmogoyf if you had to work to play it. I didn't even mind it in Standard because it was a lot harder to abuse in every single deck there.

Let me repeat for the hundredth time, also:

I'm not saying that the format sucks because of Tarmogoyf, or that it's not diverse or interesting. I've even said they probably won't ban Tarmogoyf because the format is still healthy.

However, while the format having a staple removal, discard, card manipulation or counterspell card has little drawback, I think the format having a staple creature drastically hurts the diversity and thus makes the format less interesting. That's all. The format would be more interesting without Tarmogoyf. That doesn't mean it's not still interesting.

[Jak]

Actually, give me a break. Your quote-on-quote heavily played is not backed by any numbers other than "it was played". Based on some real data again using DeckCheck, the # of times Loxodon Hierarch was apart of a top 8 deck before Goyf was legal 23. Number of times in 2008 ~70.



Actually, it is a good which has caused decks like White Threshold to morph into a more NLU style deck.

Why do I need numbers? Is it not obvious how little they are played now than back when Goyf was not around? Are you really trying to argue over something this little? Troll, since Goyf was printed, has really only put up top 8s in The Rock, over in Europe. The Elephant, is only played in the Rock or Survival. Did I not say just that?


Now, you seem them in a few Rock Decks or as a one of in Survival.

And really, it is quite hard to pull up numbers on Legacy from back in the day. Less tournaments and less results posted makes it kind of hard to compare the before and after. I am really just going by what I have seen change in Legacy.

[Solaran_X]

I'm seriously stepping away from this discussion. Discussing Tarmogoyf on any Magic board is like discussing politics anywhere else. Everyone has a view, no one can sway anyone on the other side, and sooner or later the entire conversation degrades into name calling.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To put the issue into a nutshell;

The problem isn't that Tarmogoyf is too good in anything, it's that it's really good in everything. Back in the day, there were lots of different creatures that shone in lots of different decks. If you needed the madness outlets, Wild Mongrel and Aquamoeba were strong. If you wanted to build a tribal deck, you played Goblin Warchief and Piledriver. If you were playing a midgame deck like Survival or Rock, you could pay a little bit more mana to tutor up a creature like Flametongue Kavu or Loxodon Hierarch, who had a CIP effect that could stabilize the board while providing a big body. If you were playing White Weenie, you played first strike or evasion dudes with Equipment; if you were playing Sui, you played Dark Ritual and disruption to get big guys with big drawbacks through quickly.

Tarmogoyf outshines everything in everything. He's like the fucking Sun. Tarmogoyf is Hierarch for half the cost, he's Negator with no drawback, he's Goblin Piledriver by himself (and a much bigger ass). He's Wild Mongrel with a perpetually self-refilling hand. He's Arrogant Wurm but bigger and always cheaper.

Other decks devote their entire strategies to either filling the yard with land so your Terravore can be bigger, or building up a huge board so Piledriver or Wake Thresher is the same size, or simply trying to double block with two Hellbent Gathan Raiders, or a Serendib Efreet with a Jitte on it.

But Tarmogoyf itself requires no effort. It allows you to pursue any other strategy, whether it's burn or a Counterbalance-Top lock or reanimating Sutured Ghoul or whatever, and it does it while being grossly efficient and obsoleting all these other strategies. At it's worst it's a no-investment Wall that can swing for 5.

Tarmogoyf exists on some power curve way outside of where any other creature in Legacy resides. It's a stupid, poorly designed card that suppresses diversity. The format would be better with it gone.

[Citrus-God]

So Counterbalance/Top isn't the issue, it's Goyf. It's nice we have this settled...

[kirdape3]

In a format with all of the answers available to a vanilla creature (no matter how gigantic), if you lose to Tarmogoyf specifically the answer isn't ban the thing. It's to play a better deck.

Here's a question: Would you have banned Psychatog in Invasion-Odyssey Standard, since it was just as predominant and even harder to stop?

Blasting Tarmogoyf out of the way in a modern game of Legacy isn't really that difficult, and saying that it invalidates older creatures, while true, is irrelevant - do you really want to have Serra Angel as a flagship creature? A vanilla creature is not the be-all, end-all of power level. We can do better than demanding that it be banned.

[Volt]

I would like to ban the phrase "be all end all" from ever being used again on these forums. Who do I talk to about that?

[Zach Tartell]

I would like to ban the phrase "be all end all" from ever being used again on these forums. Who do I talk to about that?

As far as I know the only way to do that would be to make each individual word filtered. Like how when you type any of these:

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh

you get Thresh for each individual letter. If we were to do that our entire board would look like a post by Omega, so I reckon it's best to leave it as it is.

[Solpugid]

Here's a question: Would you have banned Psychatog in Invasion-Odyssey Standard, since it was just as predominant and even harder to stop?

There's a big difference between being ubiquitous in Standard and ubiquitous in Legacy (or at least there should be). Standard players will at worst have to deal with 2 years of an overpowered card. Legacy players are stuck with the thing permanently.

[Forbiddian]

One issue I think nobody brought up is that Goyf answers Goyf.

Decks that run Goyfs have a built-in answer to Goyfs, encouraging people/decks who can't deal with Goyf to simply run Goyf themselves.

I also think that Goyf is extremely uninteresting to play with/against, and that counting card types in graveyards is tedious (although I've sadly faced enough Goyfs to size up Goyfs faster and more accurately than I can size up fellow human beings).


It's still not strong enough to get banned, though. It's definitely the best creature ever printed that you'd go to the attack step with, but it doesn't really distort the format more than other powerful cards.

There's enough non-basic hate that decks splashing green just for Goyf are punished in a tangible way.

Also, the presence of Goyf makes removal spells more consistent and more valuable, slightly balancing it out (and leaving opportunity for creature-less decks to take advantage of the extra removal everywhere).



I'd much rather live in a Legacy world with no Goyf (had it never been printed), but I want Legacy to be a stable environment more than anything else. I think that's why everyone plays Legacy (that, and diversity, which Goyf only hits a little bit).

The format would be better off, more diverse, blah blah without Goyf, but I'm infinitely happier and more confident to play Legacy with a Wizards of the Coast that will not ban Tarmogoyf and allow staples to be staples.

Like it or not, TGoyf is a Legacy staple, and we shouldn't ditch it for a quick high on some deck diversity.

[Isamaru]

I think TheInfamousBearAssassin and Forbiddan said it best... :smile:

Also, I think I've decided to splash for Goyf in my current deck.

[undone]

The only potential reason to ban top is time.

The only reason to ban counterbalance is idiocy.

The only reason to ban goyf is insanity.

My personal oppinion is that we just should have had cards like the 5B dredge destroy target non green card (The name escapes me) be "destroy target creature" Or just a card that reads

Total suffocation B
Destroy target green creature, that creatures controller loses life equal to twice the creatures power.

How good would something like that be for the format, seriously punishing decks playing goyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In a format with all of the answers available to a vanilla creature (no matter how gigantic), if you lose to Tarmogoyf specifically the answer isn't ban the thing. It's to play a better deck.

Right, only n00bs lose to decks that play Tarmogoyf.

Always nice to have your valuable insight to things, kirdape.


Here's a question: Would you have banned Psychatog in Invasion-Odyssey Standard, since it was just as predominant and even harder to stop?

Oh, so it is that you didn't read the thread. I was wondering.


Blasting Tarmogoyf out of the way in a modern game of Legacy isn't really that difficult, and saying that it invalidates older creatures, while true, is irrelevant - do you really want to have Serra Angel as a flagship creature? A vanilla creature is not the be-all, end-all of power level. We can do better than demanding that it be banned.

Do me a favor, chief; Actually read the thread this time, and assume that someone somewhere thought of your simplistic, knee-jerk conservative responses and formulated a counterargument somewhere.

@undone: The above applies to you.

Just, anyone that thinks they're going to be clever, realize that actual arguments have been made in this thread that have to be addressed. "NO 'nuff said n00b lawl" isn't contributing to anything here. I know you think it is, but it's not.

[Parcher]

Just, anyone that thinks they're going to be clever, realize that actual arguments have been made in this thread that have to be addressed. "NO 'nuff said n00b lawl" isn't contributing to anything here. I know you think it is, but it's not.

That may be true, but it has become increasingly difficult to slog through the detritus to find anything worth reading. Indeed, I had to stop two pages back for a moment, as I actually felt my intelligence dropping the further I progressed. One begins to feel like Luke Wilson in Idiocracy; You write a normal argument, and the overwhelming response is "LOL!!11!! Yer a ***!!!@!11! And stoopid 2!" To expect a normal person to expend the effort of responding through that seems a bit much.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To put the issue into a nutshell;

The problem isn't that Tarmogoyf is too good in anything, it's that it's really good in everything. Back in the day, there were lots of different creatures that shone in lots of different decks. If you needed the madness outlets, Wild Mongrel and Aquamoeba were strong. If you wanted to build a tribal deck, you played Goblin Warchief and Piledriver. If you were playing a midgame deck like Survival or Rock, you could pay a little bit more mana to tutor up a creature like Flametongue Kavu or Loxodon Hierarch, who had a CIP effect that could stabilize the board while providing a big body. If you were playing White Weenie, you played first strike or evasion dudes with Equipment; if you were playing Sui, you played Dark Ritual and disruption to get big guys with big drawbacks through quickly.

Tarmogoyf outshines everything in everything. He's like the fucking Sun. Tarmogoyf is Hierarch for half the cost, he's Negator with no drawback, he's Goblin Piledriver by himself (and a much bigger ass). He's Wild Mongrel with a perpetually self-refilling hand. He's Arrogant Wurm but bigger and always cheaper.

Other decks devote their entire strategies to either filling the yard with land so your Terravore can be bigger, or building up a huge board so Piledriver or Wake Thresher is the same size, or simply trying to double block with two Hellbent Gathan Raiders, or a Serendib Efreet with a Jitte on it.

But Tarmogoyf itself requires no effort. It allows you to pursue any other strategy, whether it's burn or a Counterbalance-Top lock or reanimating Sutured Ghoul or whatever, and it does it while being grossly efficient and obsoleting all these other strategies. At it's worst it's a no-investment Wall that can swing for 5.

Tarmogoyf exists on some power curve way outside of where any other creature in Legacy resides. It's a stupid, poorly designed card that suppresses diversity. The format would be better with it gone.

I think that gets most of it.

Also, since creatures are themselves an answer to creatures, Tarmogoyf being the staple creature damages the viability of other creatures more than Brainstorm does in the same situation. You can run Ponder, Portent, or Serum Visions next to Brainstorm; it's hard to run Watchwolf next to Tarmogoyf. Watchwolf tends to just sit there and be useless next to Tarmogoyf. So do most 3cc or 4cc groundpounders for that matter. Hence creatures that have been left in the format are mostly evasive, utility, or part of a tribal or Chalice-based deck. Granted, that's still a good number of creatures, but it's also a lot of creatures rendered useless.

And just to repeat for the fifth time: I don't think Tarmogoyf's presence ruins the format in any way. I just think his absence would improve it.

[Valtrix]

And just to repeat for the fifth time: I don't think Tarmogoyf's presence ruins the format in any way. I just think his absence would improve it.

Quoted for truth.

[FoolofaTook]

Auto-includes in Legacy decks running the color and type of card being played:

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Tarmogoyf

That's probably it. Those are the only non-land cards in Legacy that are absolutely going to be there if the deck can include them. From the standpoint of promoting diversity in play the format would benefit from the removal of all three.

There are so many archetypes that people don't even attempt because Force of Will is a wrecking ball before either player has even drawn a card. Brainstorm is so good that it suppresses a dozen blue cantrips that might otherwise see play. Tarmogoyf is just better than any other beater in the meta, and it suppresses a half dozen cheap green critters that would see play here or there if it were not around.

SDT is probably what is getting banned but the meta would be healthier if Brainstorm, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf bought it.

[C.P.]

SDT is probably what is getting banned but the meta would be healthier if Brainstorm, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf bought it.

Not True. Do you know what kind of stupid shenanigans will happen after FoW eats it? It's called Combo Winter.

[FoolofaTook]

Not True. Do you know what kind of stupid shenanigans will happen after FoW eats it? It's called Combo Winter.

You know, I'm tired of hearing people say this. We have no objective proof that this is true. We all see combo decks out there that are fast and efficient and we all see them lose to things other than Force of Will (Chalice of the Void, ahem.) We have seen no great surge towards combo at any point in Legacy's history despite several excellent archetypes (TES, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast) emerging at one time or another and looking quite good in the early running.

Combo is not defeated by Force of Will, it's defeated by it's own inconsistencies and by the vigorous suppression of tutoring and recursive effects in the Legacy banned list. Removing Force of Will would not make combo go nuts all of a sudden, it would encourage more people to explore combo and maybe big events would be won by combo more often, however it would not make Legacy into a combo format.

Big events now are almost always won by a deck including Force of Will and Brainstorm. Other decks top 8 but the really big events see blue in the driver's seat at the end a hugely disproportionate percentage of the time. I'll take my chances with "combo winter" and then react to it if it actually occurs, which I think is doubtful.

[kabal]

Combo is not defeated by Force of Will

Talking about playing ANT at GP:Chicago



In starred matches I went off turn 1 in game 1 with Ad Nauseam and had it Force of Will'd causing me to start the match down 0-1.

[C.P.]

Combo is not defeated by Force of Will, it's defeated by it's own inconsistencies and by the vigorous suppression of tutoring and recursive effects in the Legacy banned list.

Hi Fool, Meet TES. Or RG belcher for that matter.

Both decks are fairly consistent, and mulls to oblivion about as frequent as more 'fair' decks in the format. Also, LED and Infernal tutor, plus IGG is laughing at your so-called 'vigorous suppression'.

[Benie Bederios]

Auto-includes in Legacy decks running the color and type of card being played:

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Tarmogoyf

That's probably it. Those are the only non-land cards in Legacy that are absolutely going to be there if the deck can include them. From the standpoint of promoting diversity in play the format would benefit from the removal of all three.

There are so many archetypes that people don't even attempt because Force of Will is a wrecking ball before either player has even drawn a card. Brainstorm is so good that it suppresses a dozen blue cantrips that might otherwise see play. Tarmogoyf is just better than any other beater in the meta, and it suppresses a half dozen cheap green critters that would see play here or there if it were not around.

SDT is probably what is getting banned but the meta would be healthier if Brainstorm, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf bought it.

This is the difference with Goyf and Sensei's Divinig Top compared to Force of Will. Force of Will needs 16/20 other blue cards to make it worthwhile. This means you are already looking at a Blue-based deck, that might splash other colors.

Tarmogoyf can go in any deck Just by adding some duals and fetches( wich is far easier than 12/16 other blue cards.) Same is true for Sensei's Divining Top. As long as the deck doesn't resolve around Chalice for 1 you can throw them in.

The difference between Brainstorm is, that Brainstorm rarely swings the game around, where Tarmogoyf will do it from time to time.

BB

[FoolofaTook]

Hi Fool, Meet TES. Or RG belcher for that matter.

Both decks are fairly consistent, and mulls to oblivion about as frequent as more 'fair' decks in the format. Also, LED and Infernal tutor, plus IGG is laughing at your so-called 'vigorous suppression'.

Fairly consistent isn't going to turn into combo winter. You need to have decks out there that will go off successfully significantly more than half the time by turn 2 to make an argument that they'll become dominant if one effect is removed from the meta.

Even then you're going to have to make the case effectively that it is better for those decks to get shut down than for the decks that can shut them down to win as consistently as they do now.

Look at the really big events and you'll find Force of Will and Brainstorm in the winning decks a lot more than half the time. In the prime events that have a Legacy component you almost never see anything but a FoW/BS powered deck emerging at the end.

[FoolofaTook]

This is the difference with Goyf and Sensei's Divinig Top compared to Force of Will. Force of Will needs 16/20 other blue cards to make it worthwhile. This means you are already looking at a Blue-based deck, that might splash other colors.

Tarmogoyf can go in any deck Just by adding some duals and fetches( wich is far easier than 12/16 other blue cards.) Same is true for Sensei's Divining Top. As long as the deck doesn't resolve around Chalice for 1 you can throw them in.

The difference between Brainstorm is, that Brainstorm rarely swings the game around, where Tarmogoyf will do it from time to time.

BB

The case that you're making though is that an OP card that forces the player to play a bunch of other cards of the same color, some of them also OP, is somehow less deserving of a ban than a card that splashes into many decks. Force of Will and Brainstorm create more conformity in the meta as a whole than virtually any other cards in play. They make the meta blander due to their ubiquity.

I think Tarmogoyf is far less deserving of a ban than Force of Will and Brainstorm. If anything Tarmogyf lets people NOT play blue and still have a chance to compete. I'd rather see all three go, because I think it's bad for the meta to be locked down as tightly as it is by the three, but if I had a choice I'd keep Tarmogoyf and let Force of Will and Brainstorm go.

Assuming that the absence of Force of Will and Brainstorm DID trigger combo winter: well where would Tarmogoyf's value be then?

[Omega]

"Assuming that the absence of Force of Will and Brainstorm DID trigger combo winter: well where would Tarmogoyf's value be then?"
Where would be the value of all non-combo card?

"Combo is not defeated by Force of Will, it's defeated by it's own inconsistencies and by the vigorous suppression of tutoring and recursive effects in the Legacy banned list. Removing Force of Will would not make combo go nuts all of a sudden, it would encourage more people to explore combo and maybe big events would be won by combo more often, however it would not make Legacy into a combo format."
Combo is certainly not inconsistent. It can be as consistent as a Threshold deck, for example. 16 lands, 6-8 BS ponder. Add in 4 mystical tutor. That should be consistent enough.
People can and do explore Legacy as we speak. Force of will, instead of stopping them, is making them explore new avenue, in the hope of winning against control


Legacy's most warping cards in my opinion is by FAR fetchlands (and maybe even dual lands). Remove the fetchlands and all the format changes. No more consistent 4c decks, no more splashing. Plus, removing fetches will severely weaken cards like SDT and BS (no shuffle effect. Thus eliminating many problems!
Fetches are played in almost EVERY deck.
YET, fetches are not worthy (at least i never heard of it) to be banned.
People argue that tarmogoyf is being played and splashed in everything. Remove the source of the problem, that is by removing fetches and making splashing almost impossible.
However, i do not wish Fetchland to go. In fact, i do not wish any card to go. Legacy, as it is right now is perfect for me. Just making fun of the "alot of deck play it" argument. Just making fun of a "format defining card" argument. Fetches define the actual legacy probably more than any of the mentioned cards.


" Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
And just to repeat for the fifth time: I don't think Tarmogoyf's presence ruins the format in any way. I just think his absence would improve it."

Yes maybe yes. But let's talk money now. I paid for my tarmogoyf. Alot of people paid for their tarmogoyf. If the card is not ruining the format, just maybe it is not worth the ban. I didn't play against a single Flash deck. Yet, I heard the deck was broken. IF true, then the card had to go, even if people spent money on it.
Alot of people back then claimed that the format could adapt to Flash. Maybe Wizard doesn't want a format adapting the Combo. Maybe they want aggro, and Tarmogoyf fits in that scheme.

[Bahamuth]

The archtype of storm combo as it exists now has such great flexibility, that it has the opportunity to adapt to almost any metagame change. If there's a lot of hate present, it's form is FT. If there isn't too much hate present, it's form is TES. The archtype can go into many directions by that.

Combo can be built to be one of the most consistent decks in the format. Combo can also be built to be the fastest deck in the format. If FoW were to go, the archtype would shift to some form of the deck that is faster than the permanent hate, or that can keep it off the table.

The versatility of combo is what makes it so strong. If a part of the hate that exists now, is removed, combo can exploit that much better than any other archtype out there.


Fetchland isn't comparable to Goyf. Fetchland aren't just promintently present in the format, they define the format. If fetch would go, the format would change in such a way that only very few decks would be recognisable anymore. It wouldn't be the same format.
Goyf on the other hand, didn't do anything close to this. All it did was cutting a bunch of creatures from availability in this format. Some experience this as a bad thing, which might be enough reason to advocate banning Goyf.

I personally agree with IBA. The format is cool now, but it would be better without Goyf.

[Volt]

I'm going to say something that is going to get some of you riled up. The best Legacy-legal blue card ever printed isn't Force of Will or Brainstorm. It's Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is the creature that blue has always wanted.

By the way, if you think banning Force of Will wouldn't lead to combo winter, you are absolutely kidding yourself. If Force of Will was banned, LED would also have to go, and that's just for starters.

EDIT: One other thing. I always roll my eyes when someone says "X doesn't beat combo." Well, of course not. X doesn't beat combo, Y doesn't beat combo, and Z doesn't beat combo. However, X + Y + Z DOES beat combo. At least, that's the hope.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'm going to say something that is going to get some of you riled up. The best Legacy-legal blue card ever printed isn't Force of Will or Brainstorm. It's Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is the creature that blue has always wanted.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/f/f7/Trool.gif

[Volt]

I've just been called a trool. You kids these days. Where do you come up with this stuff?

[Finn]

Look guys. I am in the same camp as a lot of folks who would like to see Tarmo gone and yet not ready to make a stink about it for all the same reasons stated here. (In fact, we had this conversation on Starcitygames about 6 months ago but with far fewer intelligent posts.)

So enough protecting my ass. Here's my question: Is it possible that Tarmo really is hurting the format in larger ways than most people can see? I will now make my case.

1. I agree that the "countertop" decks we saw at Chicago would not have been any good without Tarmo. He's the guy that takes care of business where the rubber meets the road. And no other creature can fill that role in that deck. Just ask Werebear. Ditto Thresh, ITF, etc.

2. On my team forum and in conversations with the good players/designers I know, the phrase "doesn't that roll to CounterTop?" is foremost on our minds. It must be the first factor you can reasonably overcome. If we remove Tarmo, does that knock down the CounterTop archetype to some degree without having to ban top? I think we can all agree that neither the Top or Counterbalance is broken on its own while Tarmo is. Wouldn't this accomplish what we want while at the same time removing the actual problem card since they all rely so heavily upon him?

3. The only decks in the top 8 at Chicago that did not have 4 Tarmos were the combo deck and the Dragon Stompy deck (designed specifically as a foil to the CounterTop-Tarmo assortment of decks). The "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is a prime reasoning behind the banishment of a card.

4. Also, let me give the short version of this point straight to folks who have not thought it about it completely. Tarmo, all by itself, has removed many, many decks from contention over the past couple of years. It continues to do so by killing decks that never make it to the light of day because there is no reason to research the viability of a deck built around getting big guys into play when you can do it without building your deck around it. You take him out and you have a giant influx of strategies.

5. Finally, is it possible that Tarmo is hurting Legacy longer and harder and not getting axed simply because it is "just a beater"? There has never been a card that has needed removal simply for being such an efficient beater. Perhaps it is harder for Wizards to see its effects for themselves since they have never seen it before. Maybe we need to tell them.

[Omega]

"4. Also, let me give the short version of this point straight to folks who have not thought it about it completely. Tarmo, all by itself, has removed many, many decks from contention over the past couple of years. It continues to do so by killing decks that never make it to the light of day because there is no reason to research the viability of a deck built around getting big guys into play when you can do it without building your deck around it. You take him out and you have a giant influx of strategies."

Who the F cares about new decks? This is eternal, not T2 and Extended. Making a new AND competitive deck shouldn't be easy considering how some cards are BETTER than others. This isn't communism. Not everything is equal


"1. I agree that the "countertop" decks we saw at Chicago would not have been any good without Tarmo. He's the guy that takes care of business where the rubber meets the road. And no other creature can fill that role in that deck. Just ask Werebear. Ditto Thresh, ITF, etc."
Yes, alot of deck, including Threshold, are CB/TOP/Goyf.deck


"2. On my team forum and in conversations with the good players/designers I know, the phrase "doesn't that roll to CounterTop?" is foremost on our minds. It must be the first factor you can reasonably overcome. If we remove Tarmo, does that knock down the CounterTop archetype to some degree without having to ban top? I think we can all agree that neither the Top or Counterbalance is broken on its own while Tarmo is. Wouldn't this accomplish what we want while at the same time removing the actual problem card since they all rely so heavily upon him?"

Why is the concern of "does that roll over CounterTop" matter? Because in Legacy, there is something called Combo which set a standard of speed and of disruption. There is also burn, there are also FAST aggro.
To compete in such format, you need to be fast or faster, or to slow the game enough with disruptions
Countertop takes advantage of the fact that decks need to be fast (and thus running low CC cards). should the format slow down, the CB/top will be weakened. (Because having higher CC would be viable)

"3. The only decks in the top 8 at Chicago that did not have 4 Tarmos were the combo deck and the Dragon Stompy deck (designed specifically as a foil to the CounterTop-Tarmo assortment of decks). The "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is a prime reasoning behind the banishment of a card."
I fail to see how tarmogoyf has warped the format in this way
The only time where I experience this was back in T2 with affinity. Hate them, or just join them. Tarmogoyf is easily destroyed.
Stompy, Tribal, Landstill, Dreadstill (except certain version), Combo do not run Tarmogoyf and can all do decently. You can add to that list some Loam list, Stax.
If you still believe that the mentality of "beat it or join it" is behind this diversity, then I am short on argument to prove otherwise.

"5. Finally, is it possible that Tarmo is hurting Legacy longer and harder and not getting axed simply because it is "just a beater"? There has never been a card that has needed removal simply for being such an efficient beater. Perhaps it is harder for Wizards to see its effects for themselves since they have never seen it before. Maybe we need to tell them."
I guess Wizards have some people that look and play in every format. Or perhaps they read results from time to time.
Maybe YOU should tell them, but don't use the WE as everyone agree with you

[Nihil Credo]

There has never been a card that has needed removal simply for being such an efficient beater.

POST MAKES KIRD APE SAD :((((((((((((

[Zir]

Stompy, Tribal, Landstill, Dreadstill (except certain version), Combo do not run Tarmogoyf and can all do decently. You can add to that list some Loam list, Stax.

The fact that some lists don't run Guys doesn't mean it's not distorting the format.
Stompy doesn't run them because the only stompy version running green is the Elf/Elephant Stompy list, which does run goyfs. Some LS builds do as well, as do some versions of Dreadstill, even some Merfolk Tribal lists run Tarmo.
Combo and Stax don't run them because they confict with their strategies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The plans that Tribal and Chalice decks have to deal with Goyf are tricky. Tribal needs to get several creatures in play at once to deal with Goyf (barring their own removal spells). Chalice decks want to use two cards, either two beaters or a beater with Equipment, to take out Goyf in a fight, and then hopefully drop Chalice at 2.

Judging from that top 8, these plans aren't as consistent as a low mainteannce 1G creature that frees you up to go off and do whatever.

Also, the money argument is silly. Goyfs are still heavily played in Extended and will be for a couple years.

Also: Brainstorm wasn't run in some Merfolk lists. I know that Nice Guy Angel Stompy splashed blue specifically for Brainstorm, Serum Visions and Meddling Mage back in the day, but didn't go over that to fit in Force of Will. In fact, both these cards were also contentious additions to Solidarity back in the day; Brainstorm because it necessitated fetchlands and thus opened you up to Stifle LD, and FoW because of the card disadvantage. Which isn't to say that they weren't both the correct calls, and not to say that they're not obviously two of the strongest cards in the format, but they're not no-brainers.

I think we've reached a point of consensus in this format where, "Wouldn't this deck be better with Tarmogoyf?" Is almost always a valid question. The answer that the deck can't support Tarmogoyf is almost always a blow to it's competitiveness. A staple creature is fundamentally different from a staple once-off effect in a single color; creatures define Legacy. This isn't Vintage. A single creature dominating the ground without dispute is a problem. The fact that it does so with no investment in just about any deck only magnifies the problem; I don't complain about Terravore, which usually dwarfs Goyf, or Friksian Jrednot because those two require commitment to a strategy. They have drawbacks.

Despite the fact that Goyf is nowhere near the level of broken busted that was Hulk-Flash, the two do have one similarity; dealing with the problem once doesn't solve it. You're still playing a game of, "Heads I win, tails I don't lose".

Frankly, while I understand squeamishness about using the ban-hammer for reasons other than absolute necessity, does anyone seriously argue that Goyf's existence adds value to the format?

[kabal]

... does anyone seriously argue that Goyf's existence adds value to the format?

Yes ... Being a player of the blue magic he has been a godsend. Thank you Wizards. :)

[Volt]

Jack: I was on the fence, but no longer. Tarmogoyf should be banned.

Anybody who feels tempted to once again say "But it's just a vanilla beater!" should consider the hypothetical example of a 9/9 creature that only cost G and didn't have any significant drawbacks. Would you want that "vanilla beater" in the format? Of course not, unless you're some sort of sadomasochist. Sure, it's an extreme example, but it serves to prove that it is possible for a vanilla beater to cross the line between "best creature in the format" and "broken." Once you acknowledge that the line exists, the only question left is "Does Tarmogoyf cross it?" I think it does. Maybe only by a little bit, but it crosses it.

[FoolofaTook]

It's a creature. There are far healthier things to ban in the format than creatures with no other abilities than that they beat excessively well.

If you need to ban LED and ban Force of Will to free up other archetypes to exist then do that. If you need to ban Brainstorm because it is in 95% of all decks that win major Legacy events, then do so. If you need to ban Sensei's Divining Top because it causes arbitrary draws in game two then do so.

Banning a creature because it is too good at beating is just silly. There are (or should be) a dozen ways to kill or stop Tarmogoyf in every deck that is worried about actually getting beat to death by a creature.

Off the top of my head I can think of twenty creatures that are played alongside Tarmogoyf because of other effects that they put in play or because of evasive beating or because they beat okay and the person doesn't include green in the deck or any combination of those effects.

What I can't think of are more than a small handful of green creatures that are played alongside or in place of Tarmogyf. This is similar to not being able to think of more than a small handful of blue counters played alongside Force of Will (and none in place of ) or a small handful of blue cantrips played alongside Brainstorm (and none in place of). Sometimes cards are just better than other cards.

The question is whether or not those cards are overpowered or warp the meta in a significant enough way to demand that they be removed from play.

I think any affirmative answer for Tarmogyf also needs to address Force of Will and Brainstorm. Those are the cards that strangle the Legacy meta at the moment.

[Volt]

It's a creature. There are far healthier things to ban in the format than creatures with no other abilities than that they beat excessively well.

...

Banning a creature because it is too good at beating is just silly. There are (or should be) a dozen ways to kill or stop Tarmogoyf in every deck that is worried about actually getting beat to death by a creature.

Way to use the exact argument that I just annihilated in my last post. Seriously, can we think of new things to say besides "It's just a creature. Creatures are easy to deal with?"

[FoolofaTook]

Way to use the exact argument that I just annihilated in my last post. Seriously, can we think of new things to say besides "It's just a creature. Creatures are easy to deal with?"

You didn't annihilate the argument. You used a straw man of a 9/9 beater for G to argue that some creatures COULD be too powerful to see play in the Legacy meta and thereby be banworthy even if all they did was beat.

When that card is printed I will agree with you, that IT should be banned. Assuming of course that in the interim the average beater has not moved into the 8/8 for 3cc territory in which case, who knows?

[Volt]

You didn't annihilate the argument. You used a straw man of a 9/9 beater for G

That's not "straw man." It's reductio ad absurdum, and it's a perfectly valid debate technique.

[FoolofaTook]

That's not "straw man." It's reductio ad absurdum, and it's a perfectly valid debate technique.

Yes, but it does nothing to answer the question of whether or not Tarmogoyf is too overpowered to be allowed to exist in this meta. It just sets up the premise that a creature COULD be too overpowered to exist even as just a vanilla beater.

I don't think anybody disagrees with that proposition since a 0cc creature that beats for 20/20 would obviously be ban worthy. The question is whether or not a creature that realistically reaches 6/7 by the mid game in most cases and usually lands as a 2/3 or 3/4 in the early game is ban worthy and I think that it's clear that it is not, based on that criteria. It's better than other creatures but that's how things work: something is better and gets played and other things are not and do not.

Banning Tarmogoyf would set the precedent of banning a card merely because it confers a power advantage over other similar cards. Nobody seriously argues that Tarmogoyf is broken. What's broken is the blue decks that combine instantly available counters with a soft lock from CounterTop down the road and everything they do from then on.

Non-blue decks that use Tarmogoyf do just fine, but they almost never win the big pot at the end of the rainbow. The rainbow is all-blue and you need to have blue to get to the end of it.

[Volt]

Yes, but it does nothing to answer the question of whether or not Tarmogoyf is too overpowered to be allowed to exist in this meta. It just sets up the premise that a creature COULD be too overpowered to exist even as just a vanilla beater.

True, I did not prove that Tarmogoyf is "too overpowered." However, I did prove that "It's just a creature" is not a valid argument in its defense. So stop using it. That goes for everyone else, too.

[Belgareth]

Wotc don't ban creatures unless they do stupid things (Lin sivi in masques block), so it's unlikely to see a ban.
I can see the format being mildly more interesting without it, but I do think it's a fine vanilla beater that mildly pushes the curve but not enough to cry about.
Alot of decks play it when there are better alternatives just because it's expected.
If it had trample or shroud then i'd be right there with the ban it now crowd, but I see it as being similar to lackey in that you need a chump blocker or removal .

[Jeet]

Banning a creature because it is too good at beating is just silly. There are (or should be) a dozen ways to kill or stop Tarmogoyf in every deck that is worried about actually getting beat to death by a creature.

The best way being to play goyf as well. There's the problem. Besides, removal can sometimes be dead in your hand while a creature isn't.

[Jeet]

I see it as being similar to lackey in that you need a chump blocker or removal .

Lackey is only played in a specific deck that needs a specific shell around it. Goyf fits in most decks.

[Belgareth]

Lackey is only played in a specific deck that needs a specific shell around it. Goyf fits in most decks.

And the moment you ban tarmogoyf you get that specific deck back and people will want lackey banned like they did pre tarmogoyf.

[Volt]

I can see the format being mildly more interesting without it, but I do think it's a fine vanilla beater that mildly pushes the curve but not enough to cry about.

It would also be nice if arguments could be made without impugning the manliness of the other side. Phrases like "not enough to cry about" are obviously intended to be derisory and not constructive.


Alot of decks play it when there are better alternatives just because it's expected.

Examples?


...I see it as being similar to lackey in that you need a chump blocker or removal .

You don't "chump block" a Lackey, except with a Birds of Paradise. You block it, and Lackey dies. Maybe your guy dies too, but at least you've taken care of the problem.

[Obfuscate Freely]

1. I agree that the "countertop" decks we saw at Chicago would not have been any good without Tarmo. He's the guy that takes care of business where the rubber meets the road. And no other creature can fill that role in that deck. Just ask Werebear. Ditto Thresh, ITF, etc.

2. On my team forum and in conversations with the good players/designers I know, the phrase "doesn't that roll to CounterTop?" is foremost on our minds. It must be the first factor you can reasonably overcome. If we remove Tarmo, does that knock down the CounterTop archetype to some degree without having to ban top? I think we can all agree that neither the Top or Counterbalance is broken on its own while Tarmo is. Wouldn't this accomplish what we want while at the same time removing the actual problem card since they all rely so heavily upon him?

This is ridiculous. Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top combine to form the best strategy in the format, with or without Tarmogoyf. In fact, the absence of Tarmogoyf would probably strengthen CounterTop decks, relatively speaking, since they could fall back on playing Werebear while much of the rest of the format would struggle to find anything that compares to a 4/4 for :1::g:.


3. The only decks in the top 8 at Chicago that did not have 4 Tarmos were the combo deck and the Dragon Stompy deck (designed specifically as a foil to the CounterTop-Tarmo assortment of decks). The "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is a prime reasoning behind the banishment of a card.
Dragon Stompy was actually designed to prey on certain kinds of manabases, which highlights how the format is defined by duals and fetches. Nearly every deck plays these lands, and yet nobody is arguing for them to be banned.


4. Also, let me give the short version of this point straight to folks who have not thought it about it completely. Tarmo, all by itself, has removed many, many decks from contention over the past couple of years. It continues to do so by killing decks that never make it to the light of day because there is no reason to research the viability of a deck built around getting big guys into play when you can do it without building your deck around it. You take him out and you have a giant influx of strategies.
This is also ridiculous. Tarmogoyf may have replaced cards, which is what all playable cards do when they are printed. However, to say that Tarmogoyf "has removed many, many decks from contention over the past couple of years" is completely, utterly absurd. I challenge you to provide a list of these decks. Explain to me how Tarmogoyf is keeping them from being viable.


5. Finally, is it possible that Tarmo is hurting Legacy longer and harder and not getting axed simply because it is "just a beater"? There has never been a card that has needed removal simply for being such an efficient beater. Perhaps it is harder for Wizards to see its effects for themselves since they have never seen it before. Maybe we need to tell them.
Luckily, I think that Wizards has a better grasp on the format than you do, that's all.



The plans that Tribal and Chalice decks have to deal with Goyf are tricky. Tribal needs to get several creatures in play at once to deal with Goyf (barring their own removal spells). Chalice decks want to use two cards, either two beaters or a beater with Equipment, to take out Goyf in a fight, and then hopefully drop Chalice at 2.

Judging from that top 8, these plans aren't as consistent as a low mainteannce 1G creature that frees you up to go off and do whatever.
Crediting the success of the decks in the Top 8 of GP:Chicago solely to their inclusion of Tarmogoyf is pretty inane. The finalists both played CounterTop, which, as I said before, is the best strategy in the format. The other decks in the Top 8 also had strong strategies, and I am willing to bet that they performed better than Tribal and Chalice decks more because of that than because they had Tarmogoyfs.


Also: Brainstorm wasn't run in some Merfolk lists. I know that Nice Guy Angel Stompy splashed blue specifically for Brainstorm, Serum Visions and Meddling Mage back in the day, but didn't go over that to fit in Force of Will. In fact, both these cards were also contentious additions to Solidarity back in the day; Brainstorm because it necessitated fetchlands and thus opened you up to Stifle LD, and FoW because of the card disadvantage. Which isn't to say that they weren't both the correct calls, and not to say that they're not obviously two of the strongest cards in the format, but they're not no-brainers.
I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is. Sure, some people play blue decks without Brainstorm. Hell, there are some people playing less than a full set in Landstill, now. The problem is that the power level of the card isn't really affected by whether people make correct deckbuilding decisions, or not. I could spam Threshold decklists without Tarmogoyf in them until I was blue in the face, but you would still be right in calling it a "no-brainer."

I will also call Brainstorm a no-brainer, and one that keeps tons of otherwise playable manipulation spells from seeing play. Does that make it ban-worthy?


I think we've reached a point of consensus in this format where, "Wouldn't this deck be better with Tarmogoyf?" Is almost always a valid question. The answer that the deck can't support Tarmogoyf is almost always a blow to it's competitiveness. A staple creature is fundamentally different from a staple once-off effect in a single color; creatures define Legacy. This isn't Vintage. A single creature dominating the ground without dispute is a problem. The fact that it does so with no investment in just about any deck only magnifies the problem; I don't complain about Terravore, which usually dwarfs Goyf, or Friksian Jrednot because those two require commitment to a strategy. They have drawbacks.
You keep saying that the idea of a staple creature is "fundamentally different" from the idea of a staple non-creature, as if repeating it often enough will somehow make it true. Staple creatures have existed in every format since the inception of competitive Magic. And what do you mean when you say that creatures define Legacy? That sounds like nonsense to me.

You also can't get away with claiming that "a single creature dominating the ground" is a "problem," without explaining why. Before the printing of Tarmogoyf, Werebear was bigger and more efficient than nearly every other creature in the format, and yet it wasn't a "problem."


Despite the fact that Goyf is nowhere near the level of broken busted that was Hulk-Flash, the two do have one similarity; dealing with the problem once doesn't solve it. You're still playing a game of, "Heads I win, tails I don't lose".
Are you just trying to invoke feelings of resentment by mentioning Flash? This same point applies to every win condition ever printed.


Frankly, while I understand squeamishness about using the ban-hammer for reasons other than absolute necessity, does anyone seriously argue that Goyf's existence adds value to the format?
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned how Tarmogoyf, if anything, has made more decks viable because of its inclusion than it has obsoleted. Notice I said decks, not creatures. When we're talking about the health and appeal of a format, deck diversity is a much more important metric than creature diversity.

[C.P.]

Does Tarmogoyf stifle diversity and makes format less interesting?
Yes. Its presence alone invalidates so many things in the format. Although, Seeing how efficient creatures are these days (can you imagine Woolly Thoctar in say, Ice age? It'd be considered as greatest thing ever),

Does DCI see it as such?
Probably not, as Undercosted beaters are generally considered fine.

Will DCI listen to what the players have to say about Tarmogoyf?
No. They probably will just let it be around. They never listen to what players say, and it probably is fine that way.


I think Tarmogoyf was Greatest mistake R&D made since Scullclamp, and it is worse that it in a way since the problem is much more subtle. However, seeing how creature curve is going over the top these days, we may not have to complain in a year or two. That's where my money is on.

[Volt]

I would agree that there is more deck diversity than there was a couple years ago. However, I am not convinced that much or all of that growth wouldn't have occurred without the printing of Tarmogoyf.

Also, I would make the argument that any decks that truly required the nigh-accidental printing of a 5/6 creature for 2 mana in order to become viable probably never deserved to become viable.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Also, I would make the argument that any decks that truly required the nigh-accidental printing of a 5/6 creature for 2 mana in order to become viable probably never deserved to become viable.
This argument seems pretty untenable to me. What does it mean to say that a deck doesn't "deserve" to be viable, and why should I care?

The hyperbole about 'goyf's stats doesn't help any. If my Tarmogoyfs were always 5/6, I might want it banned, too.

[Volt]

This argument seems pretty untenable to me. What does it mean to say that a deck doesn't "deserve" to be viable, and why should I care?

I mean the same thing as I mean when I say Flash should never have been un-errata'ed and allowed in Legacy. It was a mistake.


The hyperbole about 'goyf's stats doesn't help any. If my Tarmogoyfs were always 5/6, I might want it banned, too.

5/6 is hyperbole? Seems to me that happens a decent percentage of the time. But, let's say 4/5 if you prefer. Certainly, nobody could argue with that.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I mean the same thing as I mean when I say Flash should never have been un-errata'ed and allowed in Legacy. It was a mistake.
In what sense can the viability of a deck be considered a "mistake," unless that deck is overpowered and dominating?


5/6 is hyperbole? Seems to me that happens a decent percentage of the time. But, let's say 4/5 if you prefer. Certainly, nobody could argue with that.
I attack for three an awful lot, actually. Not every game can you open with Ponder, win the counterwar over your opponent's Counterbalance, and then immediately follow up with a 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

Swords to Plowshares means that creatures don't always end up in the graveyard, either.

In my experience, Tarmogoyf usually only grows to 4+ power at the point in the game in which playing creatures that large seems reasonable, anyway. But, this is coming from someone accustomed to playing with Werebears, and it's also a little off-topic.

[matelml]

So, again, let's sum it up:

I assume bans are made to make the format "more fun". I also assume most people like diversity. Still, you can't take this to extremes, not many people want to ban all playable cards at this moment just to have diversity, they want to hang on to what they have, for most part.

It's inevitable that some creature, instant, artifact, strategy, etc will be the best in it's category, although it may not always be clear which one and there can be differences in how much better that card is than the rest. But this doesn't mean banning the best one is a bad thing.
If you ban Brainstorm you take away the best cantrip. It partially becomes replaced by Ponder. Not very interesting. Blue decks get worse, not that great for diversity.

Banning Tarmogoyf would diversify the format. Since Tarmogoyf isn't just the best cantrip. It isn't even just the best creature. It's the best wincondition. Ok. Still moot point. One must be best. But in this case the difference in level makes is the key. Removing Tarmogoyf would make it a lot less clear which wincondition is the best one and thus create more diversity in strategies. Which I assume is a positive thing in the eyes of most people. Many synergies are crap compared to Goyf, although they were playable before it. No, not one, many.

Some cards/strategies that would be a lot more playable:
Were Bear
Grunt
Fledging Dragon
Hierarch
Negator
Mongrel
Dryad
Kird Ape
Psychatog (just unbelievable, even this card sucks because of Goyf)
Exalted Angel (what? Pay 5 more, just to get flying and lifelink?)
Lavamancer (in Fish strategies, it's still fine in Sligh)
Troll Ascetic
Withered Wretch
Serra Avenger
Mother of Runes
Ophidian
Lightning Bolt
Fire//Ice
Nantuko Monastery

Reanimate (why spend a whole gameplan to getting a fattie in play, when you can just pay 1G and don't die to GY hate, don't need to play suboptimal cards like Imp, Careful study and need a whole combination of cards when the creature you'll get isn't that much better than goyf. You'll get there in 1-2 turns less)
Sui without black (sure it's played, but it's always suboptimal)
Basically any UR strategy
Any non-green pure Aggrodeck but Goblins
I'm sure there is a lot more, this is just what comes up right away. I'm not saying everything I summed up is unplayable atm, just that it's pretty much suboptimal.

The fact that it's a vanilla beater doesn't actually say anything about it being banworthy or not, as has been shown.

I think the format would be more fun without it. Not to say it's not fun at the moment, because it really is and I don't really care much, but I do agree it would probably be more fun without the Goyf.

[Jak]

CB/Top definitely gets weaker without Goyf. Thresh's clock gets incredibly slower, even slower than back when Serum Visions was played because you are running more permanents and less cantrips.

Without that same clock, decks can make their way up to 4 mana and play stuff that equals or surpasses Werebear.

[Volt]

In what sense can the viability of a deck be considered a "mistake," unless that deck is overpowered and dominating

Well, I guess we're arguing over semantics here. I'm saying that a deck that relies on the printing of a creature that is not only better than any other creature ever printed, but waaaay better than any other creature ever printed, perhaps didn't deserve to become viable.

I understand your point that the format is more diverse and healthy than it was a couple years ago. However, I think that has happened in spite of Tarmogoyf, not because of it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is ridiculous. Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top combine to form the best strategy in the format, with or without Tarmogoyf. In fact, the absence of Tarmogoyf would probably strengthen CounterTop decks, relatively speaking, since they could fall back on playing Werebear while much of the rest of the format would struggle to find anything that compares to a 4/4 for :1::g:.

Why do you turn my dentistry into a house of lies? A 4/4, first of all, is a shitload easier to answer than a 5/6. Kird Ape carrying Rancor only trades with one of the above, for instance; Gempalm Incinerator has a shitton of an easier time reaching 4, and Piledriver has an easier time trading. Phyrexian Negator can trample over Werebear.

Werebear is also easier to deal with with Crypt. Not that getting Threshold is exactly easy when you're focusing on getting permanents into play; Counterspell and Portent were a lot more conducive to that strategy than Top and Balance, which is why I think you and your brother reserved the combo for the sideboard most of the time before the printing of Goyf.

So I hope you understanding why I say that, in the full spirit of friendship and camraderie, if you say again in this thread that Top-Balance lists would "just" replace Goyf with Werebear and other decks would struggle to beat the Threshed 4/4, I will explode out of your computer screen by magic and turn you to stone.


Dragon Stompy was actually designed to prey on certain kinds of manabases, which highlights how the format is defined by duals and fetches. Nearly every deck plays these lands, and yet nobody is arguing for them to be banned.

If we were talking about a list of 10+5 creatures, some combination of which was played in nearly 75% of the decks in the format, we would be onto something here, maybe.

Though, no, let's say the comparison's valid. Let me address the basic point;

Do I think that banning Duals and/or Fetches will open up new and interesting possibilities? I don't think shock and pain lands are anymore interesting than the current mana base, so I'm going to give a "no".


Luckily, I think that Wizards has a better grasp on the format than you do, that's all.

What? Shut up. No you don't. I don't put Finn on my top ten list of people I want Legacy advice from, but anyone who actually plays the format has a better grasp on the format than R&D, and you fucking know it, and pretending otherwise is just intellectually dishonest.


Crediting the success of the decks in the Top 8 of GP:Chicago solely to their inclusion of Tarmogoyf is pretty inane.

Good thing I didn't do that, then.


The finalists both played CounterTop, which, as I said before, is the best strategy in the format.

But wasn't for a fucking year before Tarmogoyf got printed.


The other decks in the Top 8 also had strong strategies, and I am willing to bet that they performed better than Tribal and Chalice decks more because of that than because they had Tarmogoyfs.

50% of the other decks was Dragon Stompy, which is a Chalice deck.


I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is. Sure, some people play blue decks without Brainstorm. Hell, there are some people playing less than a full set in Landstill, now. The problem is that the power level of the card isn't really affected by whether people make correct deckbuilding decisions, or not. I could spam Threshold decklists without Tarmogoyf in them until I was blue in the face, but you would still be right in calling it a "no-brainer."

I will also call Brainstorm a no-brainer, and one that keeps tons of otherwise playable manipulation spells from seeing play. Does that make it ban-worthy?

Would the format be more interesting if people ran 4x Ponder and then debated between Portent and Serum Visions, with the occasional oddball Opt or maybe even Whispers of the Muse? No.

Ask me if I think the format would be more interesting if people spent more time debating what creatures to fill the niche roles in a given deck, instead of simply slapping 4x Tarmogoyf in there. Go a head, ask me.


You keep saying that the idea of a staple creature is "fundamentally different" from the idea of a staple non-creature, as if repeating it often enough will somehow make it true. Staple creatures have existed in every format since the inception of competitive Magic. And what do you mean when you say that creatures define Legacy? That sounds like nonsense to me.

Most decks in Legacy win through creatures. It's a combat-heavy metagame.

Also, this depends how we're using staple. Savannah Lions, Birds of Paradise and Mogg Fanatic show up routinely. You expect some Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage, maybe some Eternal Dragon. I don't know of a creature besides Tarmogoyf which was in nearly every single deck, regardless of colors or primary strategy, for more than a season of Standard, tops.


You also can't get away with claiming that "a single creature dominating the ground" is a "problem," without explaining why. Before the printing of Tarmogoyf, Werebear was bigger and more efficient than nearly every other creature in the format, and yet it wasn't a "problem."

Bullshit. Werebear was good. It was also routinely killed by other creatures. Just to name one primary example, Werebear gave you a reason to run Survival because Flame Tongue Kavu was a card advantage way of dealing with Werebear. To say nothing of the whole drawback where if you only had 6 cards in your graveyard, Werebear was a 1/1. Tarmogoyf is perpetually out of Fanatic range and almost always out of Gempalm and Lightning Bolt range, even in the earliest stages of the game.


Are you just trying to invoke feelings of resentment by mentioning Flash? This same point applies to every win condition ever printed.

Um, no, it fucking doesn't, that's why I named other overwhelmingly powerful threats that had drawbacks attached to playing them; namely, Terravore requiring you to play an entire deck around it, and Phyrexian Dreadnought requiring a specific two card investment. For it's size and speed, Tarmogoyf costs you very little.


Someone earlier in the thread mentioned how Tarmogoyf, if anything, has made more decks viable because of its inclusion than it has obsoleted. Notice I said decks, not creatures. When we're talking about the health and appeal of a format, deck diversity is a much more important metric than creature diversity.

But yet you yourself say that merely repeating something doesn't make it true. Name the decks that Tarmogoyf has made viable that weren't before. For every one you name, I'll name three creatures or spells that don't see play anymore because of Tarmogoyf. And none of them will be Werebear. This seem like a deal?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Well, I guess we're arguing over semantics here. I'm saying that a deck that relies on the printing of a creature that is not only better than any other creature ever printed, but waaaay better than any other creature ever printed, perhaps didn't deserve to become viable.
This isn't a semantical arguement at all. If a deck's viability serves to improve the diversity of a format (which, by default, it does), then what higher goal is there to satisfy? Why wouldn't that deck deserve to be viable?

[Volt]

This isn't a semantical arguement at all. If a deck's viability serves to improve the diversity of a format (which, by default, it does), then what higher goal is there to satisfy? Why wouldn't that deck deserve to be viable?

The ends justify the means? Perhaps. Perhaps not. You're right; this isn't a semantical argument at all. It's a philosophical one. You want to make the argument about the common good of the format, underlined by the notion that Tarmogoyf has been good for the format. As I stated before, I think the format has improved in recent years in spite of Tarmogoyf, not because of it.

[Peter_Rotten]

Some cards/strategies that would be a lot more playable:
...


I think that you are wrong about a lot of the assumptions you have made here. I'll go through your list (and sorry to use a cute short-cut, but I'll get real tired of typing "before Goyf" so I'm typing "b4Goyf"):

Were Bear - OK - he was directly replaced by Goyf. I'll agree to this one.
Grunt - never saw much play, and in some way Goyf's reliance on the yard makes him stronger.
Fledging Dragon - I'll agree that Goyf ended his minimal influence on the format. Red splashing Thresh has little reason to run him as a finisher
Hierarch - barely played and most often in "bad" decks like Rock.
Negator - barely played b4Goyf and only in Suicide decks.
Mongrel - saw barely any play. I once saw him in an AggroLoam list.
Dryad - Was already flimsy and hardly playable b4Goyf
Kird Ape - I'm unsure about this one. He was already crappy against Goose and Bear.
Psychatog - this card sucked b4Goyf. The "I can't believe Tog sucks now" argument holds as much water as the "I can't belive Morphling sucks now" argument. The format left Tog in the dust ages ago b4Goyf.
Exalted Angel - Once again, he only saw minimal play b4Goyf and the decks that do play him have replaced him with more efficient win-cons like DoJ and PLaneswalkers
Lavamancer - was this guy really ever played in Fish? Also, in some ways, he becomes a little better because of messing with Goyf's yard.
Troll Ascetic - what decks was he played in b4Goyf?
Withered Wretch - A SB card meant to hate on GraveYards. There are more efficeint ways to hate the yard than this guy.
Serra Avenger - a very narrow card that saw minial play in tier 2 decks.
Mother of Runes - How did Goyf make this card suck? It saw little play b4Goyf and, now, it's main purpose - protecting a creature has not changed.
Ophidian - are you kidding me?
Lightning Bolt - Sadly, I'll agree. But the popularity of Mongoose helped weaken this card. Goyf sure was the knockout punch here, though.
Fire//Ice - Fire simply did not do enough b4Goyf. It could kill a single Goblin, often be too slow to deal with Lackey, couldn't target Mongoose, would do jack-shit against DragonStompy Critters, Kird Ape, WildN, Ichorid, Storm Combo, or even - gasp - Ohpidian.
Nantuko Monastery - very narrow card that had a place... where again?
Reanimate - was bad b4Goyf. And imagine trying to run Reanimtor now with all the yard hate aimed at Ichorid?
Sui without black - I'm not even sure what that is.
Basically any UR strategy - what UR strategy was heavily played b4Goyf?
Any non-green pure Aggrodeck but Goblins - Those decks were terrible before too.So we have three cards listed - Bear, FledgeDragon, and Bolt - that have likely seen less play because of Goyf. Actually, I'm going to rescind that comment. Two cards - Bear and FDragon - have seen less play. I bet Bolt has seen MORE play now because Goyf made Sligh a reasonable deck choice by giving it the the big cheap beater it so desperately needed.

Also look at the list of critters and compare them to the most commonly played creatures today: Dark Confidant, TombStalker, PDreads, Goblins, Merfolks, Trinket Mage, and fattie guys in AggroLoam. Haven't all of these critters helped destroy those weaker cards in your list?

And, really! What DTBs are seeing play now that did NOT see play b4Goyf? Vice Versa? What decks did Goyf kill? I can't think of one. Hell, I'll say that Goyf made MORE decks viable. Eva Green and GoyfSligh being two that spring to mind. What decks would REALLY suffer if Goyf was banned? Would Thresh no longer be a good deck? Would AggroLoam totally punt every match then?

Honestly, the most important thing that Goyf killed was the need to make "Ban Lackey and Ringleader" threads on the Source. For that, I'll be eternally grateful (pun intended).

I'm starting to think that Goyf is the glue that holds Legacy together. (Did somebody alreday say this, or do I get credit?)

[FoolofaTook]

The ends justify the means? Perhaps. Perhaps not. You're right; this isn't a semantical argument at all. It's a philosophical one. You want to make the argument about the common good of the format, underlined by the notion that Tarmogoyf has been good for the format. As I stated before, I think the format has improved in recent years in spite of Tarmogoyf, not because of it.

The format hasn't improved that much over the last couple of years. The main change is that Goblins has been replaced as the DTB by a variety of blue-based control decks that mostly play Force of Will, Brainstorm, Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top. Landstill and Thrash are the lone blue holdouts that don't play the entire suite and despite some real waves by Thrash it's clear that the 16 card power suite above is dominant in Legacy at the moment.

The meta has slowed down dramatically in the timeframe that these decks have become dominant but it has become no less predictable. Where once you envisioned Goblins plowing through you in record time now you envision the inevitability of losing to the CounterTop lock.

The two things that have contributed the most to the shift are the "discovery" of CounterTop (how collectively dense are we really not to have discovered this and abused it earlier?) and the addition of Tarmogoyf - which both slowed down Goblins and gave CounterTop a strong beater.

At this point it seems pretty clear that the banning of Tarmogoyf would not alter the fundamental structure of the meta. The CounterTop genie is out of the bottle and a 4/4 beater or a 4cc beater of larger size is going to be just as inevitable - it's just going to slow play down a little bit but along the same lines of attack as before.

The banning of Sensei's Divining Top would make a difference, since it would make Counterbalance less predictably abusable. The banning of Brainstorm and Force of Will however would result in a metagame shift away from blue control and towards something else.

Combo winter might result, but then again mono-black aggression might become playable again and make combo miserable. You never know what's going to happen when a shift occurs.

[georgjorge]

Banning Top is not right, because it leaves non-blue control decks (Rock, Galois, Quinn), which aren't exactly overpowered right now, without their primary card draw. But still, the digging power of the Ponder + Brainstorm + Top package seems too high when even storm combo already plays it! I say axe the Brainstorm, and make blue less dominant (CBalance + Top will still be viable of course).

Yes, I've read all the arguments that "Brainstorm is a skill tester" and "We can't just ban the best card because then we'll have to ban all good cards". Still.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Why do you turn my dentistry into a house of lies? A 4/4, first of all, is a shitload easier to answer than a 5/6. Kird Ape carrying Rancor only trades with one of the above, for instance; Gempalm Incinerator has a shitton of an easier time reaching 4, and Piledriver has an easier time trading. Phyrexian Negator can trample over Werebear.

Werebear is also easier to deal with with Crypt. Not that getting Threshold is exactly easy when you're focusing on getting permanents into play; Counterspell and Portent were a lot more conducive to that strategy than Top and Balance, which is why I think you and your brother reserved the combo for the sideboard most of the time before the printing of Goyf.

So I hope you understanding why I say that, in the full spirit of friendship and camraderie, if you say again in this thread that Top-Balance lists would "just" replace Goyf with Werebear and other decks would struggle to beat the Threshed 4/4, I will explode out of your computer screen by magic and turn you to stone.
Trading a Rancor'ed Kird Ape with a Werebear is no easier than blocking a Tarmogoyf with another Tarmogoyf. It is the fact that so many decks can play 'goyf that mitigates its power level, and, yes, this hurts the decks that previously played Werebear, because they no longer have sole access to the best power-to-mana-cost beater available.

And please stop saying that CounterTop makes it impossible to get to threshold. It simply isn't true, and that was never even a consideration when we discussed playing Counterbalance in the maindeck. Realize that a lot of people used to play Meddling Mages, Pithing Needles, Explosives, and fewer than eight fetchlands, and still reached threshold fine (with or without Mental Note).


If we were talking about a list of 10+5 creatures, some combination of which was played in nearly 75% of the decks in the format, we would be onto something here, maybe.

Though, no, let's say the comparison's valid. Let me address the basic point;

Do I think that banning Duals and/or Fetches will open up new and interesting possibilities? I don't think shock and pain lands are anymore interesting than the current mana base, so I'm going to give a "no".
Well, you know, we could ban the shocklands and painlands, too. At that point, every deck would play different configurations of filter lands, Karoo lands, and 5c lands. Wouldn't that be more interesting? No?

Speak for yourself, I guess?


Would the format be more interesting if people ran 4x Ponder and then debated between Portent and Serum Visions, with the occasional oddball Opt or maybe even Whispers of the Muse? No.

Ask me if I think the format would be more interesting if people spent more time debating what creatures to fill the niche roles in a given deck, instead of simply slapping 4x Tarmogoyf in there. Go a head, ask me.
More subjective evaluations of what would make for a more "interesting" format, I see. Get your head out of your ass.

I would find it interesting to build decks without Brainstorm. If you think the answer would simply be to replace Brainstorm with Ponders and Portents, then you aren't thinking outside the box enough. Cards like Sylvan Library and Street Wraith would see more play, and more decks would play Sensei's Divining Top, as well.

Actually, we would have to ban Top, as well. You would always have to ask "would this deck be better with SDTop in it?" That's unacceptable, right?


Most decks in Legacy win through creatures. It's a combat-heavy metagame.

Also, this depends how we're using staple. Savannah Lions, Birds of Paradise and Mogg Fanatic show up routinely. You expect some Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage, maybe some Eternal Dragon. I don't know of a creature besides Tarmogoyf which was in nearly every single deck, regardless of colors or primary strategy, for more than a season of Standard, tops.
Tarmogoyf is not in "nearly every single deck," either. It was mentioned before that it is only in about half of the DTBs.

A lot of the cards you just named have shown up over the years in decks with wildly varying primary strategies. Tarmogoyf might be the most extreme example, but not by the orders of magnitude you're claiming it is.


Bullshit. Werebear was good. It was also routinely killed by other creatures. Just to name one primary example, Werebear gave you a reason to run Survival because Flame Tongue Kavu was a card advantage way of dealing with Werebear. To say nothing of the whole drawback where if you only had 6 cards in your graveyard, Werebear was a 1/1. Tarmogoyf is perpetually out of Fanatic range and almost always out of Gempalm and Lightning Bolt range, even in the earliest stages of the game.
Flametongue Kavu was played primarily to kill Werebear, and now that Werebear doesn't see much play, Kavu isn't played as heavily (I guess; Survival decks still do play it). This is an example of a card that is not as good with Tarmogoyf in the format.

But, that's okay. It happens all the time. Look at what Thoughtseize did to Duress.


Um, no, it fucking doesn't, that's why I named other overwhelmingly powerful threats that had drawbacks attached to playing them; namely, Terravore requiring you to play an entire deck around it, and Phyrexian Dreadnought requiring a specific two card investment. For it's size and speed, Tarmogoyf costs you very little.
Alright, I'll bite. What did you mean, then, by a game of "heads I win, tails I don't lose?"


But yet you yourself say that merely repeating something doesn't make it true. Name the decks that Tarmogoyf has made viable that weren't before. For every one you name, I'll name three creatures or spells that don't see play anymore because of Tarmogoyf. And none of them will be Werebear. This seem like a deal?
Again, deck diversity is more important than creature diversity. Every deck in the format could play Tarmogoyf, but if there was still a reasonable number of viable decks, each of which played its own distinct game, the format would remain fun and interesting. You are wailing and gnashing your teeth over a problem that doesn't exist.

[Volt]

Once again, The Source has destroyed my work productivity. Damn you all! *shakes fist*

[Finn]

ObFreely, I just thought you would like to know that of the 10 Merfolk decks that made day 2 at Chicago, the one that finished best splashed green for Tarmo. A Merfolk deck, man.


What? Shut up. No you don't. I don't put Finn on my top ten list of people I want Legacy advice from, but anyone who actually plays the format has a better grasp on the format than R&D, and you fucking know it, and pretending otherwise is just intellectually dishonest.You bastard.
My mom says I'm smart.

And good-looking.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Alix:

You can't say "I'll bite" and then fail the challenge of naming a single deck which couldn't exist without Tarmogoyf.

Pull your head out of your own ass. No one said that Tarmogoyf needs to be banned because it's destroying the format; I went out of my way to say the opposite. Of course the question of whether or not removing Tarmogoyf would a) increase diversity, and b) improve the metagame is up for contention. So contend it.

Right now you're sitting around with your thumb up your ass saying, "Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man."

No shit. Who else's would it be? Stop ducking the fucking point. Brainstorm has some of the same problems as Goyf, but they're less noticeable for reasons gone into above. Games are rarely resolved solely on the back of who drew the most Brainstorms.

@Finn:

That's what your mom said last night in bed while I was having sex with her.

osnaposnap.

[Deep6er]

Why are you talking about Finn while fucking his mom? That's an awkward sex conversation right there.

[Obfuscate Freely]

You can't say "I'll bite" and then fail the challenge of naming a single deck which couldn't exist without Tarmogoyf.
Huh? I wanted to know what you meant by "heads I win, tails I don't lose." You had compared Tarmogoyf to Flash, and I don't think the two have much in common.


Pull your head out of your own ass. No one said that Tarmogoyf needs to be banned because it's destroying the format; I went out of my way to say the opposite.
I didn't claim otherwise.


Of course the question of whether or not removing Tarmogoyf would a) increase diversity, and b) improve the metagame is up for contention. So contend it.
That is what I'm contending. Whose post are you responding to, exactly?


Right now you're sitting around with your thumb up your ass saying, "Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man."
It is your opinion. You cannot state as fact that a card is banworthy because it obviates a more "interesting" set of choices than does another, equally powerful card. That is an utterly subjective claim, and it undermines your argument.


No shit. Who else's would it be? Stop ducking the fucking point. Brainstorm has some of the same problems as Goyf, but they're less noticeable for reasons gone into above.
Who's ducking the point? I am arguing that these "problems" are no more noticeable for either card, and that the same "problems" are caused to some extent by every other card that people play. It's inherent to building Magic decks.


Games are rarely resolved solely on the back of who drew the most Brainstorms.
I don't think that this statement is particularly relevant, but it is almost certainly wrong. Brainstorm's effect on a game is more subtle, though, so it can be hard to tell when you've been beaten by one.

[Volt]

Just curious... How does one go about making an objective claim about the banworthiness of Tarmogoyf, or any other card for that matter? Is there an established set of metrics and benchmarks that I don't know about? Assuming there isn't, then all discussion in this thread is necessarily subjective. I don't think pointing out that someone's opinion is an opinion is much of a refutation.

[scrow213]

Just curious... How does one go about making an objective claim about the banworthiness of Tarmogoyf, or any other card for that matter? Is there an established set of metrics and benchmarks that I don't know about? Assuming there isn't, then all discussion in this thread is necessarily subjective. I don't think pointing out that someone's opinion is an opinion is much of a refutation.

Thank you. Any discussion of banning a card is inherently subjective.

To the point, I again state that it probably doesn't need to be restricted, as it is not broken, but it sucks that they printed it, as it severely reduces options for viable creatures.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

a) "Property X exists in other cards to some degree" is not an argument. Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, and Aeon Chronicler all share similarities, they're not at similar power levels.

b) As noted, all arguments are subjective.

Tarmogoyf causes decks to do nothing they weren't going to do anyway, and gives most of them a very powerful, low maintenance creature just for splashing green duals. This was a common feature in the Chicago top 8 and day 2, for instance, where an astounding number of different archetypes were playing Tarmogoyf in slots that, with his absence, would be occupied by very different creatures as need dictates.

If you say that it's fine that one creature fills the same slot in nearly every deck, that's an opinion, but I consider it a poor one. I think creature variety would inherently make the format more interesting and more appealing to people who are looking for somewhere to play Blastoderms, Exalted Angels, Aquamoeba or whatever other old creatures they're playing. A lot of Legacy's appeal is being able to play any old deck; having to fit in 4x Tarmogoyf makes this rather more of a pain in the ass. You could make the same argument for Force of Will, but even that isn't as ubiquitous as Goyf.

I don't mind new staples; I'm not trying to get rid of Ponder or Thoughtseize. Goyf just breaks the creature curve and I don't appreciate the effect.

And you still haven't mentioned what decks exist with Tarmogoyf that wouldn't exist without him. Hell, if he actually created new decks, that would be something. The plain fact is that if you banned Goyf tomorrow, not a single fucking deck would disappear. There'd be a sudden resurgence in some twenty different creatures, play would become more dynamic. Tribal decks and Chalice decks would get a little bit better, Eva Green and It's The Fear would become somewhat worse, possibly Tier 3. Team America would be worse, maybe, although it could just be B/u Sui with Tombstalker and, say Shade, or Bitterblossom. There would be several months of juggling while the format restabilizes, and the tier structure would change slightly. Some people that don't want to play Extended would trade off for the Fetchlands that are about to rotate out of 1.X. That would be it. Children would run along gumdrop lanes and sing songs with singing butterflies in chocolate fountains.

[sligh16]

In my opinion tarmogoyf should be banned by all the above arguments whose authors are Volt and TheInfamousBearAssassin.

There's a question i would like to ask: If you own a playset of tarmogoyfs, and recognize that is a sick creature that appears in every deck that can splash for green and attempts to win in the combat step, even in decks that apparently break their sinnergies (tribal ones), would you openly admit that it should be banned??

I know its a hard decision, because it hurts our pockets, but i think that it would restore the apparent balance in the power level of creatures, hence making the format healthier. That's it.

Let's hope that the level of the argumentation doesn't drop anymore.

[Bardo]

Yeah, interesting. Tagging on that, I too am curious to know:

* Those that own 4+ Tarmogoyfs: Do you believe Tarmogoyf should be "banned for the good of the format?" (Or whatever your criteria is.)

* Those who own 0-3 Tarmogoyf(s): Do you believe Tarmogoyf should be "banned for the good of the format?" (Or whatever your criteria is.)

I own exactly 4 Tarmogoyfs (got 'em for $3 each the week after the Future Sight pre-release) and don't believe they should be banned (for reasons I don't feel like explaining right now, but is thought-out than "I own 4.").

Is there anyone that owns 4+ Goyfs and is advocating their banning?

[Volt]

Is there anyone that owns 4+ Goyfs and is advocating their banning?

I guess I'm a member of that group, now. I own 4 goyfs. At one point I owned 8, but I sold off the extras.

[AngryTroll]

And, really! What DTBs are seeing play now that did NOT see play b4Goyf? Vice Versa? What decks did Goyf kill? I can't think of one. Hell, I'll say that Goyf made MORE decks viable. Eva Green and GoyfSligh being two that spring to mind. What decks would REALLY suffer if Goyf was banned? Would Thresh no longer be a good deck? Would AggroLoam totally punt every match then?

Honestly, the most important thing that Goyf killed was the need to make "Ban Lackey and Ringleader" threads on the Source. For that, I'll be eternally grateful (pun intended).

I'm starting to think that Goyf is the glue that holds Legacy together. (Did somebody alreday say this, or do I get credit?)

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that Goyf is the glue that holds the format together, but it certainly did end the debate about Lackey and Ringleader.

I certainly don't think Top and Goyf should be banned at the same time. I understand the time issues with Top, and I understand that Goyf is played in everything. However, I don't think you should toss both simultaneously. Losing either would be a serious blow to Thresh. Losing both would be a double punch to all the aggro control in the format while greatly strengthening Combo and Goblins. That might not be a bad thing, but it is rather drastic.

I'd like to play Troll Ascetics, Werebears, and all those dudes again, but on the other hand, if things aren't broken, they don't need fixing. Those Merfolk lists running Relic main, for example, seem like a great tool against a huge portion of the metagame, and the deck doesn't involve fetchlands, Brainstorms, Counterbalance, Top, or Goyf.

[deadlock]

I lost track of the discussion, so if this has already been covered feel free to ignore my post.
There was some talk about what deckss got suppressesd by Goof, but did you also cover the decks got spwaned by him? Means decks that rely heavily on Goof (outside CB/Top decks), like ITF and TA.
In my opinion its worth noting..

[Occam]

Yeah, interesting. Tagging on that, I too am curious to know:

* Those that own 4+ Tarmogoyfs: Do you believe Tarmogoyf should be "banned for the good of the format?" (Or whatever your criteria is.)

* Those who own 0-3 Tarmogoyf(s): Do you believe Tarmogoyf should be "banned for the good of the format?" (Or whatever your criteria is.)

I own exactly 4 Tarmogoyfs (got 'em for $3 each the week after the Future Sight pre-release) and don't believe they should be banned (for reasons I don't feel like explaining right now, but is thought-out than "I own 4.").

Is there anyone that owns 4+ Goyfs and is advocating their banning?

I don't think it's mutually exclusive, and that while the argument that the banning of goyf is triggered by its price and ubiquity was not brought up by you, it gets tiresome. I don't own any goyfs now, but the price it carries isn't a barrier for me (I have a pretty nice collection), ergo while its price isn't a defining factor for me in terms of its banning or otherwise, the fact that goyfs pervade the format leads me to believe that the format will be healthier without it. Let me add the caveat that I personally do not think it should be banned here.

I do understand the arguments put forth by those in favour of goyf's banning, and I think that they have made some excellent points. The sheer power-level and splashability of goyf is almost unheard of in an eternal format, and it gives aggro-control decks a huge advantage, which is not wrong in itself, but is a huge raincheck for an eternal format. It almost reminds me of the old days in diablo II. How long more before the SI unit of legacy is TGFs along the lines of Sojs being everywhere in DII?

At the same time, comparing goyf to legacy staples is slightly disingenuous. Force of will, stp, hymn, brainstorm and ritual/led are likely the best at what they do, but in a format that has already been stated to revolve so much around the combat phase, the problems that goyfs cause are along the lines of threats > answers. No other creature even comes close to goyf in legacy because of the low required investment (especially in aggro-control where goyf is pumped by the typical machinations of the deck) -- if a welder gets stped, a large portion of the weld/sur/7-10 deck goes dead with it; if a goyf gets stped, the investment in goyf typically isn't great enough to say that the caster of the stp scored any more than a temporary moral victory. Simply put, in any deck that isn't tribal themed and which revolves around the combat step, any lack of tarmogoyf isn't because of tarmogoyf -- it is despite tarmogoyf. No other creature, not welder, not confidant, not terravore, not hyppie, can come close to claiming that.

Claiming that tarmogoyf is answerable isn't and shouldn't be anything more than a red herring. Everything is inherently answerable. That goyf does not kill you immediately isn't the point either. The decks that make best use of goyf do not need goyf to kill an opponent immediately (although they would prefer it that way) -- it simply puts an opponent on a fast enough clock such that an answer cannot be found to either or both a CB lock and a goyf. That there isn't a precedent for the banning of goyf isn't a foolproof way of avoiding a banning, as there has never been another creature quite like goyf before. Saying that people who lose to goyf as a single entity should play a better deck is impossible to debate for or against either. Metalworker fails as a singular entity without cards attuned to abuse it too, as does something like bazaar. At the very least, neither of those examples give decks the ability to pursue a very optimal tradeoff between two archetypes like tarmogoyf does with aggro and control/sui.

Comparing FoW to goyf doesn't work for me either. I'll paraphrase points already made by saying that goyf doesn't require an entire strategy to be devoted to it, reducing the inherent sunk costs that make terravore, welder, and even confidant weaker when viewing the format as a whole. Even without a strategic investment, goyf is almost always a very very real threat in most games.

In the end, I still don't think goyf should be banned, but that I think wizards will find it tough to print anything good enough to stop it. I don't wish to see card design stifled by goyf either, although that may not be a huge concern on this thread.

[rleader]

Is there anyone that owns 4+ Goyfs and is advocating their banning?

Have five, think the format is a bit less interesting with them in it. That said, I currently wish I owned more (although I'm not going to invest in them), as I'm a person who keeps multiple decks sleeved and boxed. I think the assumption that people have an opinion just because they're poor or whiners or whatnot is an unfair one, at any rate. People advocating for the status quo are typically assumed the objective or masculine parties, when there's nothing rational to support that assumption.

The Wizards' Star Wars Miniatures game had its own goyf for a while, and it was printed at uncommon so there wasn't an economic argument:

Long story short, the Republic Jedi Weapon Master was intended in development to be a unique jedi character but was printed as a generic one without be recosted. Since "legendary" figures (think Hound of Konda) can have their power pushed at the low end, as you can't use them in multiples, the figure was pound for pound stronger than anything else in the game. It still is, in a sense, even though most players have grown tired of abusing it (it's less competitive than Magic: most players flock to new stuff just because it's new).

If you listen to any of the pillars of the SWM community now (a tiny cabal that pulls stunts like reporting virtual tournaments, on a magic workstation like program for miniatures called vassal, to the DCI as if it happened in an actual store), they'll tell you that the mistake was great because it led to the devs pushing stats for all melee characters. If, OTOH, you fear that power creep is spiraling out of control, that community, to spare the feelings of the devs who hang out from time to time, will demand that you eat a plate of shut the fuck up.

On the one hand, it's not "goyf" anymore because every faction in the game has near equivalent figures and it will no longer skew players towards using that faction. OTOH, whenever you look at any of the newer Republic faction figures, they're more "interesting"* than the jedi weapons master but are only actually better when a certain number of variables come into perfect allignment, meaning that you're better off going with the old standby if you're a gamer and not a fanboy.

* "more interesting" creatures as a point raised a few pages ago. Master of Etherium might be more interesting than goyf, but you can't reliably use it as a default win condition without having more of your deck dedicated to it than a set of fetchlands that can grab a forest. As such, I don't think interesting can always make up for pure powerlevel unless the interesting thing already has a deck waiting for it with bated breath.

[BreathWeapon]

Yeah, interesting. Tagging on that, I too am curious to know:

* Those that own 4+ Tarmogoyfs: Do you believe Tarmogoyf should be "banned for the good of the format?" (Or whatever your criteria is.)

* Those who own 0-3 Tarmogoyf(s): Do you believe Tarmogoyf should be "banned for the good of the format?" (Or whatever your criteria is.)

I own exactly 4 Tarmogoyfs (got 'em for $3 each the week after the Future Sight pre-release) and don't believe they should be banned (for reasons I don't feel like explaining right now, but is thought-out than "I own 4.").

Is there anyone that owns 4+ Goyfs and is advocating their banning?

Yes, I have 16, and I still think he should be banned to diversify the format and increase the mana curve.

This has never been a "I don't have Tarmogoyf, ban him! or I don't play Tarmogoyf, ban him!" discussion, the teenagers in this thread just like simplifying the argument into black and white pathos attacks.

[Peter_Rotten]

Yes, I have 16, and I still think he should be banned to diversify the format and increase the mana curve.

I don't agree that banning him will diversify the format. What decks will see more play because he is not present? What decks are currently NOT played because of Goyf?

Looking at the DTB Forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23), what decks would fall from prominence? Survival, Thresh, AggroLoam? Probably not.

Looking at the Established Deck Forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24), what decks would become better without Goyf in the format? GoyfSligh loses its best beater so becomes weaker. TA suffers the same situation. UG Dreadstill loses its reason to run green, so we lose a a variety of Dreadstill here. EvaGreen loses its best beater and would now run green to... Disenchant things? And what currently Goyf-less decks get better if he is not present? MeatHooks? edit - below my post Arsenal mentions RedDeath becoming unplayable. Fair enough, but would RedDeath really be THAT viable in a-Goyfless meta?

And if Goyf is banned, how threads will we start next year about how Green sucks?

[Arsenal]

Red Death, a promising tempo Suicide variant, effectively rolled over and died due to (a.) 3pt burn not doing anything against a 4/5 beater, and (b.) none of it's own creatures outbeefing Goyf.

Just wanted to chime in there.

[FoolofaTook]

I still can't figure out why people would advocate banning a creature when there are a good dozen cards in the format already that are more powerful than it?

It's kind of like saying "everybody uses grenades when they get up close so we need to ban grenades" when there are RPG's and LTM's and all sorts of nastier stuff waiting to take people out at range before anybody ever gets close enough to use a grenade.

[Nightmare]

The only reason I'd ever advocate banning Goyf is so that FtK can be good again. I love me some FtK. Especially on Negator.

[Fons]

I own 0 Tarmogoyfs and I don't care if they get banned or not. If they get banned fine I didn't lose any money, if they don't get banned fine, They are powerful and are definitly the win-con of choice for most legacy players. Banning FoW or Brainstorm seems like a bad idea.

[Skeggi]

Banning a creature seems weird. I don't think it has ever been done. Creatures are weak and every deck can pack an answer against them. White can Plow, WoG, Humility etc., Red can burn, Black has a million ways to get rid of it, Blue can counter, bounce and steal, and Green can simply play a bigger creature. There's never a good reason to ban something as low as a creature afaik.

Edit: apparently you have to state the number of Goyfs you own. I also own 8. Am I also cool, hip, happening and in da (goyf-owning)club now? :wink:

[C.P.]

I own 8 goyfs, and I think the time will fix the problem as Wizards print better creatures. Remeber the time when Morphing and Masticore was too good?

Sure, it was mistake, but seeing how efficient vanila beaters are trend of the late(Thoctar, Nactal, Tombstalker, Goyf, Vanquisher), Goyf will eventually be just really good, but not broken.

EDIT:

Banning a creature seems weird. I don't think it has ever been done.
See: Ancient Extended.

[Finn]

I don't agree that banning him will diversify the format. What decks will see more play because he is not present? What decks are currently NOT played because of Goyf?

Looking at the DTB Forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23), what decks would fall from prominence? Survival, Thresh, AggroLoam? Probably not.

Looking at the Established Deck Forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24), what decks would become better without Goyf in the format? GoyfSligh loses its best beater so becomes weaker. TA suffers the same situation. UG Dreadstill loses its reason to run green, so we lose a a variety of Dreadstill here. EvaGreen loses its best beater and would now run green to... Disenchant things? And what currently Goyf-less decks get better if he is not present? MeatHooks?

And if Goyf is banned, how threads will we start next year about how Green sucks?
Wow. Just wow.

Eva Green, Goyf Sligh, TA - these are decks that only exist because Tarmogoyf does. Why are you even looking in Established for decks that will benefit from banning Tarmo? It's full of decks that are attuned to its presence. Legacy is currently a "flavors of Tarmo" environment. You should be considering the ones that have fallen off the map since the opponent can land a turn 2 clock consistently and without design space required. Even more important are the ones that designers give up on before starting because there is currently no point pursuing a deck that works to get big creatures in play if you can do so without trying.

Examples:

1. When Talara's Battalion and Nettle Sentinel came out, I sunk myself into designing a mono-green build with them. The Tarmos were just an afterthought included to make it win. I soon grew bored when I discovered that while Talara's Battalion was good, the Tarmos were better than Talara's Battalion in a deck designed specifically for it.

2. Last year, Isamaru and I kicked around some ideas including one to bring Avatar of Might into play quickly and cheaply. We gave up after learning that the deck needed Tarmogoyf because - you guessed it, they were better in the deck.

Consequently, pretty much anything I put effort into these days has to have Tarmos in it with a few exceptions. There is little reason to bother on anything else.

BTW, I own 5 of them.

EDIT: CP, all the other ones you list make requirements from the deck.

[FoolofaTook]

The interesting choice the DCI could make would be to ban Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. They could say that Goyf was banned because it was extremely powerful and ubiquitous at the top level of the format, that Brainstorm was banned because it's power level was above the Legacy ceiling and as a result it was almost always used by the eventual winners of large Legacy events, and that Sensei's Divining Top was being banned for the same reasons it was banned in Extended - a mixture of time related issues and the specific relationship with Counterbalance that was overpowering in the format.

At that point we'd see a significant shift in the meta with all of the Threshold, NLU and Dreadstill variants requiring reworking and probably downgraded in power from their collective position atop the meta.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I own 0 Goyfs, and the price is somewhat of an issue for me personally. But I don't want Goyf banned. I would like to see either Top or Counterbalance go though.

The best way I can summarize my argument is just to say that I think CounterTop decreases player interactivity and makes the format less fun. Goyf on the other hand actually helps the interactivity level I think.

With the printing of Relic of Progenitus, and the increasing use of creature stealing (Sower, Shackles), there are a number of good ways to interact with Goyf. There are only a few ways that you can continue interacting with an opponent once CounterTop is resolved (Shusher...?).

[Solpugid]

@DrewliusMaximus

I'm not sure I agree that countertop reduces interaction. Actual, I'd say it increases interaction because every spell is reacted to. Rather, the problem is that it makes almost all of those interactions one-sided (i.e. positive for the countertop player).

Banning either 'balance or top would be a pretty bitter blow to this format. As far as I can tell, countertop is punishing decks for running low-cc spells. If countertop is axed, cheap removal would be better able to handle goyf, yes, but the format would become incredibly fast and no real problems would be solved. Goyf would still outclass all creatures, and blue would still need to be played to handle combo.

Banning goyf, on the other hand, (and yes, I own 4) would allow the format to slow down as more decks adopt more expensive (or smaller) win conditions. Countertop would therefore become weaker, which I think most people would be happy about, but still stick around to beat combo.

Also, the argument that diversity of decks is more important than diversity of creatures may be true, but one follows from the other. That is, if more creatures become viable they can spawn new decks (albeit probably not tier 1). As Finn mentioned, deckbuilding becomes a lot more fun (and successful) without goyf in the mix, so with time a number of new strategies should emerge. Just because these strategies aren't quite on-par with threshold doesn't mean that they aren't worth having in the format.

[Skeggi]

After explaining in my previous post why Tarmogoyf isn't that bad, I'll now explain why Counterbalance isn't bad: you can outcurve their curve. There are enough powerful spells between 3cc-6cc you could consider to use. The problem with Countertop is that Top takes sooooo much time, it takes the tempo out of the game.

[Volt]

Creatures are weak and every deck can pack an answer against them. White can Plow, WoG, Humility etc., Red can burn, Black has a million ways to get rid of it, Blue can counter, bounce and steal, and Green can simply play a bigger creature. There's never a good reason to ban something as low as a creature afaik.

Gee, thanks for reiterating this obsolete argument. Go back and read page 10 of this thread.

[Anusien]

I address this issue on TMD: Don't Ban Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37579.msg523207#new). My central argument is that any ban of Top or Counterbalance will cause combo to go out of control.

[Kuma]

I own four Tarmogoyfs, and I don't think it needs to be banned.

While goyf is prevalent in the format, it's not like you have to run him to be competitive. Of the twenty decks on the first page of the Established Decks forum, six of them run Tarmogoyf in all or most lists, and two run goyf in some of the lists.

Six (five if you don't count U/b/g/w Landstill since not all lists run goyf) of the eleven decks in the DTB format run goyf, but three of those are Thresh variants.

This is not a format where you have to run goyf or deal with goyf to be competitive. Sure, your deck needs to be able to deal with creatures, and often those creatures will be goyfs, but goyf is not stifling diversity.

If goyf is banned, Goblins will become the strongest deck in legacy. I don't know about you guys, but legacy has been much more fun for me since I stopped having to worry about whether or not my deck can deal with a first turn Goblin Lackey. Merfolk will also take a nosedive, since Goblins is its worst matchup. Landstill will probably see less play since it's too slow to deal with Goblins and Standstill doesn't mean much when your opponent has out Lackey/Vial.

Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance do not need to be banned either, especially not in conjunction with Tarmogoyf. Do you really want the metagame to turn into Storm Combo and decks that don't beat Storm Combo? Then you'd have to ban Lion's Eye Diamond and possibly Ad Nauseum, which makes Goblins the top deck in the format. So then you'd have to ban Lackey and maybe Vial, unless Goblins vs metagame board control sounds like a fun legacy to you.

The format's fine. Leave it alone. The only decks that died to Tarmogoyf are Red Death, Angel Stompy, and Rifter --- the last two because they were designed to beat a deck that was hurt by goyf.

Decks that wouldn't be worth playing without goyf include Cephalid Breakfast, Goyf Sligh, Eva Green, and It's the Fear.

Also, this:


I think that you are wrong about a lot of the assumptions you have made here. I'll go through your list (and sorry to use a cute short-cut, but I'll get real tired of typing "before Goyf" so I'm typing "b4Goyf"):

Were Bear - OK - he was directly replaced by Goyf. I'll agree to this one.
Grunt - never saw much play, and in some way Goyf's reliance on the yard makes him stronger.
Fledging Dragon - I'll agree that Goyf ended his minimal influence on the format. Red splashing Thresh has little reason to run him as a finisher
Hierarch - barely played and most often in "bad" decks like Rock.
Negator - barely played b4Goyf and only in Suicide decks.
Mongrel - saw barely any play. I once saw him in an AggroLoam list.
Dryad - Was already flimsy and hardly playable b4Goyf
Kird Ape - I'm unsure about this one. He was already crappy against Goose and Bear.
Psychatog - this card sucked b4Goyf. The "I can't believe Tog sucks now" argument holds as much water as the "I can't belive Morphling sucks now" argument. The format left Tog in the dust ages ago b4Goyf.
Exalted Angel - Once again, he only saw minimal play b4Goyf and the decks that do play him have replaced him with more efficient win-cons like DoJ and PLaneswalkers
Lavamancer - was this guy really ever played in Fish? Also, in some ways, he becomes a little better because of messing with Goyf's yard.
Troll Ascetic - what decks was he played in b4Goyf?
Withered Wretch - A SB card meant to hate on GraveYards. There are more efficeint ways to hate the yard than this guy.
Serra Avenger - a very narrow card that saw minial play in tier 2 decks.
Mother of Runes - How did Goyf make this card suck? It saw little play b4Goyf and, now, it's main purpose - protecting a creature has not changed.
Ophidian - are you kidding me?
Lightning Bolt - Sadly, I'll agree. But the popularity of Mongoose helped weaken this card. Goyf sure was the knockout punch here, though.
Fire//Ice - Fire simply did not do enough b4Goyf. It could kill a single Goblin, often be too slow to deal with Lackey, couldn't target Mongoose, would do jack-shit against DragonStompy Critters, Kird Ape, WildN, Ichorid, Storm Combo, or even - gasp - Ohpidian.
Nantuko Monastery - very narrow card that had a place... where again?
Reanimate - was bad b4Goyf. And imagine trying to run Reanimtor now with all the yard hate aimed at Ichorid?
Sui without black - I'm not even sure what that is.
Basically any UR strategy - what UR strategy was heavily played b4Goyf?
Any non-green pure Aggrodeck but Goblins - Those decks were terrible before too.So we have three cards listed - Bear, FledgeDragon, and Bolt - that have likely seen less play because of Goyf. Actually, I'm going to rescind that comment. Two cards - Bear and FDragon - have seen less play. I bet Bolt has seen MORE play now because Goyf made Sligh a reasonable deck choice by giving it the the big cheap beater it so desperately needed.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I think I agree that Counterbalance isn't so bad on its own. Not only does Top take so much time, but it is much harder to outcurve now that many builds can frequently stack their decks 3cc and 4cc cards.

I also think that combo is held in check just fine by Chalice, Trinisphere, discard, regular counterspell, Stifle, Sphere of Resistance, etc. And if Counterbalance remained without Top, I find it hard to believe that combo would take over.

[rleader]

Goyf on the other hand actually helps the interactivity level I think.

It would be interactive if it was a 4/4 or a 5/5 but because of the extra toughness goyf stalemates are best beaten with blue spells, stealing goyfs, rather than killing them or boosting your own guy to smash through them, all the good answers are still in one color. When people say goyf dies to terror, it's kind of stupid, since there's seldom any reason to play terror over threads/sower/shackles because of the ubiquity of goyf.


Countertop would therefore become weaker, which I think most people would be happy about, but still stick around to beat combo.


countertop decks still generally outtempo decks that play 4/5/6 mana spells. Hard to believe, I know.

Then again, it's in the best interest of people who prefer to play counter-top style decks to encourage other people to play shitty decks while pretending that the advantage that their favored archetype has over the field is necessary to protect the poor scrubs from combo.

It's kind of the legacy shell game: I'm betting that a lot of counter-top fans, were they to face pros like Nassif playing counter-top too, week after week, in grueling mirror matches, really enjoy the fact that legacy events are typically nothing like that experience and you get to feel like an ace player yourself when you completely shut down some dude playing Boros Deck Wins or whatever, who can't resolve a spell after turn three.

[Volt]

Six (five if you don't count U/b/g/w Landstill since not all lists run goyf) of the eleven decks in the DTB format run goyf, but three of those are Thresh variants.

Our DTB forum is a pretty piss-poor source for making any sort of argument. I would be inclined to weigh the GP Chicago results much more heavily than the entirety of the DTB forum. I am more moved by the fact that the highest finishing Merfolk deck at Chicago splashed green for Tarmogoyf than I am by the fact that the Merfolk thread in our DTB forum doesn't happen to include any goyf lists.