[Article] Chicago's Legacy

[Ectoplasm]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/29

Some of the expected (but still wonderful) 'Legacy is cool' vibe, some people saying Legacy isn't the turn 1 kill format people make it out to be, interviews with (among others) David Caplan, Andy Probasco and the DS-hero James Mink!

Decent read overall, nothing groundbreaking, just some afterthoughts and a nice plug for Legacy. Also props to David for the 'Legacy wants recognition' shoutout.

[mercenarybdu]

At the very least, right in the text, a lot of misconceptions are cleared out.

David even brought up the usual conservative quote some of us have been bringing up about the costs for Legacy.


David: Many players see Legacy as an expensive format. The thing that is important to remember is that the upkeep of the format is quite cheap. Once you own the staples, there are not too many cards you need to buy because Legacy does not rotate. This makes Legacy cheaper over time than other Constructed formats.

[rleader]

I've never been a big fan of that point, just because incremental costs are easier to swallow financially and psychologically than a huge down payment: you can get into standard and then STOP any time you want, after all. The argument (or technically, it's arguers) also typically underprices Legacy staples, assuming someone can get them all from ebay sniping and magiccardtrader buddies, but then someone who needs a deck actually *needs* a deck and can't spend months tracking down the best auction ever or navigate an insiders system like Traders. If you have to pay Star City Games prices for lands, you're better off not playing with them.

I think a stronger way to describe it is that Legacy makes your cards mean something to you.

Seeing some kid (under 16) at a store trade $100 worth of faeries for two WOGs and some crappy Green/White lands that are going to rotate in a few months, just because "regionals is tomorrow and some dude online said that Kitchen Finks / Cloudthresher decks have an edge this time" is kinda heartbreaking. He lost like $75 in value just for the sake of competition.

While that's the same argument, truthfully (that legacy is cheaper), I think it's more positive in that it focuses on the specific strengths of the format, where cards are treasured and not disposable.

Plus, by saying that, you're not necessarily saying anything untrue: upkeep isn't necessarily cheap in that unless you follow forums obsessively, you're not going to realize how hot goyf [and various equivalents] are until STD and EXT price them into oblivion anyway.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with my thoughts on this, but these are the same people who are still buying $12 Lion's Eye Diamonds everywhere and insist that everyone else is having the same experience. :wink:

[frogboy]

That quote is pretty inaccurate; it's not like you can't trade Standard cards for other Standard cards, and during Ravnica season my buddies and I accumulated a set of shocklands almost exclusively by drafting them.

It's also way harder to borrow Legacy decks.

[goobafish]

That quote is pretty inaccurate; it's not like you can't trade Standard cards for other Standard cards, and during Ravnica season my buddies and I accumulated a set of shocklands almost exclusively by drafting them.

See what happens to the value of your standard cards once they rotate, and good luck trading them. Many of them only have applications in T2. Drafting also costs money. You are looking at this in the wrong way, either way you are doing work/paying money by buying singles, packs or drafting to get the cards. With Legacy, you get the stuff once, and you do not need to trade your legacy cards away, or crack packs. Also, most of the stuff doesn't become worthless over time.

I know this is true because I know many players who just play eternal formats, they accumulate the basics for a blue control deck or fish type deck, and there are very few new cards they need each year.

In Standard, when you "Stop" after a rotation, your cards deflate in value, and you do not retain your original investment. With legacy, buying duals and forces 3 years ago will give you an equal or greater payout now when you want to get rid of them.

I talk about this not only as a player, I have extensive experience as a trader/buyer/seller who used to have an extensive stock of both T2 and eternal cards. I know how difficult cards that are about to rotate are to move, and how liquid Eternal cards are.

[Nihil Credo]

To sum it up: Standard = stocks, Legacy = bonds.

[frogboy]

Drafting also costs money.

lol? Even if this were true, you are paying for a draft and mising the cards for free. Drafting is fun.


See what happens to the value of your standard cards once they rotate

It's not like you can't trade them before they rotate.

You can also have multiple Standard decks built for significantly cheaper than you can have multiple Legacy decks built. (Noooooooooooooot interested in the argument of 'Threshold and Landstill have so much overlap!')

[goobafish]

lol? Even if this were true, you are paying for a draft and mising the cards for free. Drafting is fun.
That is still money spent towards cards for standard. I agree that drafting is very fun, but that is not an argument for the price of standard.


It's not like you can't trade them before they rotate.

You can also have multiple Standard decks built for significantly cheaper than you can have multiple Legacy decks built. (Noooooooooooooot interested in the argument of 'Threshold and Landstill have so much overlap!')

If you trade them before they rotate, then you have a period of time without a deck. I edited my post while you were writing your reply:



I talk about this not only as a player, I have extensive experience as a trader/buyer/seller who used to have an extensive stock of both T2 and eternal cards. I know how difficult cards that are about to rotate are to move, and how liquid Eternal cards are.

You need to trade them long before the rotation, otherwise there are many fewer people interested.


Anyways, I stand by my answer. I have a lot of experience trading/dealing, and I know how cards in standard fluctuate after rotation, and how hard it is to get rid of them right before rotation. They normally end up sitting in a box at home or liquidated at low prices.

[frogboy]

That is still money spent towards cards for standard. I agree that drafting is very fun, but that is not an argument for the price of standard.

Yeah it is. You spend X drafting. You walk away with Y in cards. You are assuming that drafts have no utility and are always negative EV.


If you trade them before they rotate, then you have a period of time without a deck.

This actually has some merit for people who play weekly Constructed. Despite this, my intuition is that having two Standard decks is a significantly lower outlay than a legitimate Legacy deck. That might be incorrect, though.

[Esper3k]

This actually has some merit for people who play weekly Constructed. Despite this, my intuition is that having two Standard decks is a significantly lower outlay than a legitimate Legacy deck. That might be incorrect, though.

I think this might depend a lot on the Standard and Legacy decks though.

I think your average competative Standard deck is probably still considerably cheaper than your average Legacy deck though.

Your average Legacy deck probably has more cards that will stay useful though (fetch and dual lands will always find a him), whereas with the Standard deck, once the cards rotate out, you'll really have to wheel and deal them to get rid of them at a decent price (even if you try and trade before they go out, I think you'd have a tough time quickly dumping them at a good price).

[Bardo]

Your average Legacy deck probably has more cards that will stay useful though (fetch and dual lands will always find a him), whereas with the Standard deck, once the cards rotate out, you'll really have to wheel and deal them to get rid of them at a decent price (even if you try and trade before they go out, I think you'd have a tough time quickly dumping them at a good price).

I haven't fully thought this through, but generally, the initial investment to have different deck options in Legacy is considerably more than acquiring the same for Standard, since the average card per deck is generally more expensive in Eternal formats.

Acquiring a set of blue duals will set you back around $500 - $600. A set of Forces: $80 - $95. Sets of blue fetches (Strands and Deltas): $150 or so. I don't want to dick around with prices, but I'm not far off.

Point is, it costs a lot to acquire a functional Legacy card base. Probably $800 or so. Throw in Goyfs and assorted out of print cards like Pernicious Deeds, Thoughtseizes, Jittes, etc., you're around $1,000.

Magic is an expensive hobby. It's what it is. And what it is, is fucking fun.

That said, keeping current with Standard over a 5-years of time and playing the top decks I'll bet costs more $$ than acquiring your base Legacy set and staying current over that period of time, since you're pretty good to go once you've paid the cost of admission. It's that initial investment that's scary if you need to get the cards. For new players, that's the hurdle for getting new players into Legacy, and there's not much we can do about it.

If you're a new player or interested in the format, the best thing is to be patient. Get what you need over a period of time, $$ permitting, and make the process of acquisition something that's fun too. Don't think of it as a chore.

[Esper3k]

I'll agree that the initial investment into Legacy is much greater than it is to get into Standard.

However, I don't think the upkeep costs of Standard are necessarily as great, monetarily, as others may think. Through a lot of trading/reselling, I think you can recoup a lot of your costs. However,

1) You're likely to be constantly bleeding a little bit of value over each trade as you're trading cards that will rotate out soon for newer cards with more "lifespan"

2) You never get to keep your cards if you're constantly trading/selling them

3) It's a real pain in the butt, I would imagine, to keep doing this.

Don't get me wrong, I think overall Legacy is definitely a much less stressful format to keep up with once you're invested in it. I'm just not sure I'm absolutely sold on the cheaper overall idea (although I'm surely open to being convinced otherwise).

For newer players, the group I play with tends to allow proxies (we play pretty casually anyways) for cards. Especially when you're trying out new deck ideas, we don't see any real reason to try and get expensive cards that may/may not work out for you anyways. Some of us like to test with MWS, but I think the interface can get frustrating for some people.

[rleader]

the initial investment to have different deck options in Legacy is considerably more than acquiring the same for Standard

I wasn't prepared to make that kind of investment. I had no idea how long I'd be playing magic when I got invited to play again (started at The Dark, quit around Visions, started again at TSP) in a single legacy tournament. I started with one deck and expanded it and I still haven't bought any duals.

I have about seven decks sleeved up now (affinity/ dragon stompy/ pox/ od's reanimator/ quinn(with moat!)/ burn/ TEPS), as I've continued that pattern, putting one or two "cheap" manabase decks together each year. My brother, OTOH, lived on the west coast and was able to buy duals and fetches for about 60% of what I'd have to pay, and has nearly a complete set, minus an underground sea or so.

Our collections probably cost us about the same, but his obviously has better resale value. He might make money, I'd definitely lose. OTOH, he can have two decks boxed at once, at most, and until he made significant headway in his collection, his cards weren't useful to him, while mine were playable immediately.

As I had no idea that Magic would really bring us close together again and that we'd be playing three years later, going all in with staples instead of an actual deck was unthinkable. Would it have been a good idea in retrospect? Well, maybe, but then my cards and my brother's complement each other pretty well, too.



Magic is an expensive hobby. It's what it is. And what it is, is fucking fun.

Very true. I never mind people griping about the expense though, because at least you know they're honest.

I'm betting a lot of people who epeen smack other posters for whining about the expense of tarmogoyf and whatnot don't actually have paper cards themselves but only play on MWS. But of course they're sure they'd really tear it up if they ever took the plunge and played "for real."

[SMR0079]

It all depends upon the amount of time you end up playing either format. In the long run the Eternal formats cost less and offer a much greater return on investment. The other benefit no one mentioned yet is that in Legacy you don't have to constantly be trading your cards to stay on top financially. As an adult with responsibilities I can't afford to spend my time constantly trading to get maximum value out of my investments, which is one reason I don't play Standard. I simply can't keep up with all the rotations and I don't want to be perpetually losing value on the cards I buy.

While there certainly are more affordable Legacy decks such as Merfolk or Goblins, the cost to buy in from scratch to play something like blue control is absurdly high if you aren't so lucky as to have been "grandfathered in" like many of us. Which is a good reason for our community to bring in as many people as possible by sharing decks and not dissing on the newbs too hard.

What I have noticed many of my friends who trade alot do is to treat Standard cards like day trading constantly buying low and selling high, then mid way before a set rotates, not right before, they trade their Standard chase rares for duals, Forces, and other Eternal staples ensuring they retain value.

[Nihil Credo]

If you already draft every week or more and spend a lot of time at the card shop (or on eBay/MOTL/mcm.eu), then keeping up with Standard is certainly a lot easier on your finances - heck, if you're good you can even turn a profit.

But lots of Legacy players don't have that much time (or just aren't interested). In fact, I think that this is a huge part of what gets people into Legacy: you can take a few weeks off because you're busy and when you come back you won't have lost track of the metagame, or fallen behind the curve in drafting experience.

The stocks/bonds metaphor applies here as well: the former is high maintenance, the latter requires an initial careful scouting but then you can almost forget about it.

[Gibbie_X]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents into the pot. I have been playing, off and on for roughly 13 years. I have accumulated a wide assortment of good and bad cards. I showed up to GP Chicago missing the core of my deck, and traded a bunch of bullshit I didn't need, and got duals, fetchies, everything, from a dealer, and I didn't even need to trade my most expensive cards. True, I had bought a lot of my deck on e-bay, getting a third of my deck for under $30.

[Fossil4182]

I'd guess that the investment for a decent Legacy deck would be somewhere between $500 - $1000 dollars depending on what you're playing. I mean building goblins isn't going to be nearly as expensive as CouterTop decks. Decks like Ichorid have a fairly low level investment (minus the LEDs, though there is an LEDless version of the deck :-) Its like any Magic collection, it just takes time to builds.

Additionally, Standard as a format artifically inflates the value of cards. I mean Cryptic Command is not going to be a plus $20 when it rotates out of Standard. The cards you're purchasing are going to hold their value and many of the Legacy staples likes lands, FoW etc will only increase in value as time goes on. Plus, most sets don't add a lot to the card pool of Legacy and even when they do, outside of a few excpetions like Goyf/Thoughtseize/ect. the last few years haven't seen anything impact the format that cost more than $10 - $12.

It can also be easier to make the transition if your community supports Extended as a lot of those cards will still do well in Legacy. I mean its not hella difficult to port something like Affinaty to Legacy if you're playing it in Extended.

To add to this point, there a lot of decks in Legacy that allow for a very low cost entry and can still preform effectively. Burn, DragonStompy, Death and Taxes, Angel Stompy, Goblins (Higher end) - I mean we have 6 pages on this site alone that focus on budget decks that are easy to purchase and can be developed into something more competitive over time. Plus the investment into Legacy will equal about what you're going to spend over the course of a standard season anyway. Yes, the cost are a little more upfront, but so what. Its not like you have to go out every week and buy a new set of cards. Plus, when you do establish a good card pool, with just 10-12 cards, you can change your deck into something else (I mean hell UGr/w/b/any combo of the two or 5cc Threshold lol)

Plus since the cards don't really loose value, its a lot easier to trade them in to play something else becaues what you're getting isn't going to devalued compared to what you're giving up. (This assumes you trade smart)

[Bardo]

On the other hand, the higher cost of entry, makes the average Legacy player a bit more "mature" than the average T2/Block player. I'm not saying there aren't Small Children who enjoy this format, but it's definitely a small proportion of the player base of rotating formats. That's one positive side-effect of card cost (for me, anyway).

For the more "seasoned" among us (i.e. old), it's not as weird. ;)

[scrow213]

I like Legacy in general because you have a lot of power and amazingness, without buying Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, etc. Also, when I drop $55 for a set of Force of Wills, I know they are a good long-term purchase. I will be able to use them for years and I can always resell them, possibly for more than I bought them for.

[Fossil4182]

On the other hand, the higher cost of entry, makes the average Legacy player a bit more "mature" than the average T2/Block player. I'm not saying there aren't Small Children who enjoy this format, but it's definitely a small proportion of the player base of rotating formats. That's one positive side-effect of card cost (for me, anyway).

For the more "seasoned" among us (i.e. old), it's not as weird. ;)

That's real good analysis. I didn't mean to sound like I was bashing standard by any means. I think if there was only Enternal Formats then the number of new players would be sig lower due to the high entry cost. That being said, one area of improvement would be to bridge the gap between players making the transition from Standard to older formats. Extended is helpful in that respect, but events like GP Chicago are much more helpful in that respect. Plus with the turn out, I'd hope to see more events like that in the future.

[Finn]

About price, I have fallen into the habit of not even aggressively collecting chase rares until after they rotate out of Standard. Magic has not been expensive for me for a long time.

Frogboy, you may have a point about trading cards, but my version of putting effort into new cards is buying a few boxes of each set and opening them when I get around to it. I can't be bothered trading like mad every few months anymore. You simply can't be lazy and cheap at the same time in Standard.