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Scrabble
03-16-2009, 10:30 PM
Background info (you have permission to skip): One of my pet cards is Rhystic Study. I've been looking to throw that in to any deck packing blue for years now. Largely this has been futile. It's been solid in vintage and against storm decks, but the mana cost really hinders its uses. Then I saw some Vintage deck run Mystic Remora, and I was like "Wow, why have I been messing with this 3cc card when there's a better one for U." So I threw it into all kinds of decks but found it to be less than useful (to say the least), against Goblins and other such aggro (legacy, I stopped playing Vintage a while ago). And then I saw a deck list recently (I wish I knew the name to give credit to, but I don't), that packed Meditate. It's a great draw on it's own (nets +2 if you count their draw) as long as you can protect yourself on that missed turn, but really shines when you have a Remora on the field as you skip the upkeep and still get the benefits of the draws on their turn.

Out of this little combo of Mystic Remora and Meditate (if you want to call it that, but the cards are stellar on their own), sprang the list bellow. The draw cards were easy, the counters to. Next I needed a way to deal with aggro, the bane of the decklist that was shaping up. So I threw in the best blue creature control cards (Threads of Disloyalty and Vedalken Shackles), and decided that it looked pretty good, especially with the manlands as backup. All that was needed now was a win condition. Against creature heavy decks I might have been able to get away with just running shackles and manlands for the win, but against combo I wasn't looking good. I looked into Rainbow Efreet, but it was slow, much too slow. Then I looked at Morphling and other beaters but again, thought were to slow or too mana intensive. So I settled on what many call jank, that being Polymorph -> Progenitus. It gets the job done and can win asap if need be. Backing up the creature target isn't all that hard with 12 "free" counters, so I think this is the best overall solution.

You've heard enough, here's the list I'm looking at:

4 Mystic Remora
4 Meditate
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Commandeer
4 Daze

3 Polymorph
1 Progenitus

4 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Vedalken Shackles

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
12 Foil Island

Mystic Remora- Quick drop, that will net cards. Cumulative Upkeep is easily dealt with through meditate and not needing to play cards on your turn. If you need to play Threads or Shackles it's no big deal not paying the Upkeep as you'll have drawn a sufficient amount of cards already.

Meditate- Biggest draw to fuel the pitches. Works especially good with Mystic Remora, though is great on its own.

Brainstorm- Great draw. May need fetches to fully utilize. Puts Progenitus back if need b, though often you can just discard down to seven it out anyways.

Force of Will- Best free counter/ any counter in the game. Works great off of meditate, an auto-include.

Commandeer- Surprise card, free. When I say free I mean card disadvantage of 2-1 for 0 mana, but really was one of the first cards in the list. With so much cad draw you should be able to have 3 cards and more to spare to counter (take control of) game breaking spells. Works great off of a meditate. Commen targets from top 8 decks from Chicago - Vindicate, Top, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Jitte, Shackles, Counterbalance, Fire/Ice, EE, Burn

Daze- Free counter. Great with Threads, Shackles, and Meditate as you'll be tapped out.

Polymorph- The win. I looked for a cheap way to win that fit well into the strategy of the deck, this was it.

Progenitus- The kill con.

Threads of Disloyalty- Way to deal with aggrro, much needed against Goyf and Dreadnaught. Feeds the Monster Bunny.

Vedalken Shackles- Deal with aggro match-up. Bunny Food.

Lotus Petal- Multiple drop off of Meditate. Helps fuel the quick kill if needed. Not to worried about card disadvantage as there is soo much draw. Could possibly go for fetches.

Mishra's Factory- Great beater, much needed against swarm and other man-lands. Can be used for Polymorph if need be.

Blinkmoth Nexus- Better than conclave if going for quick Polymorph drop, could be switched out.

Foil Island- must be foil, there is no other way

End notes: I looked at Thirst for Knowledge over Meditate but just didn't like the way it looked. There's more card advantage with meditate doesn't require other cards (artifacts) to make it worth while. Thirst for knowledge would be included in another little deck I've been toying around with that has Meditate and Remora for big draw, to be followed by Erayo, Soratami Ascendant and the baubles/ brainstorm/ ponder for the flip. PM me if you're interested in trying to work something out with this idea.

Misdirection is a possibility in here, maybe -1 Commandeer +1 Misdirection? Drawing 2 Commandeers may be too much, though they are always pitchable.

I'm very interested in what you guys have to say, so please expand on the idea as it's in the very early stages of development, the most important part. Do you see any major holes? One person looking over a list will find one or two, but a whole community is sure to find the weaknesses which will then be corrected to make this deck more than just a neat idea. Thanks for any input.

scrow213
03-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Looks like a ton of fun. I would like to see some testing done first though. Get some results and that will be the best way to see how it works!

C.P.
03-16-2009, 10:54 PM
The deck needs more moxen, and better win condition. Or It may end up being too slow.

Scrabble
03-16-2009, 11:01 PM
Looks like a ton of fun. I would like to see some testing done first though. Get some results and that will be the best way to see how it works!

True true! I'll have to MWS it soon, then this weekend I should be able to do a little real testing. Until then, any gaping holes?


The deck needs more moxen, and better win condition. Or It may end up being too slow.

I thought about Chrome Mox. I didn't know if Force, Commandeer, Lotus Petal and them were too much card disadvantage. If I were to throw them in, I think I'd have to go -2 Blinkmoth Nexus -2 Island +4 Moxen. What do you suggest for win? I think PolyProgenitus fits very snuggly in the deck, but there's always other options. What are you thinking?

scrow213
03-17-2009, 12:09 AM
I think more Moxen is the wrong call. You have plenty of free stuff, and you can steal their stuff. I would try to cut manlands so you always have enough islands for shackles. Maybe try Propaganda for aggro matches?

4eak
03-17-2009, 01:22 AM
Tested several versions of this deck. Here is the bottom line:

Mystic Remora sucks in a creature heavy format. Remora could only merit play in a format where threats are non-creature spells because it would at least enable you to keep up relevant card parity. Remora never triggers enough to be worth the expense of the card. Remora does not buy serious tempo in this format, nor does it draw many cards when your opponent plays appropriately.

If there were a combo winter, then perhaps I could see this card. Legacy is full of creatures, and this card is dead for now.

Meditate and Remora just aren't very good right now. The deck plays like a bad version of MUC.






peace,
4eak

Poron
03-17-2009, 07:19 AM
http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/143.html

3x for sure


anyway Mystic Remora is a very good card against Storm Combo, but Counterbalance is better in that matchup so... I'm not sure there's a way to make this deck competitive

Scrabble
03-18-2009, 08:26 PM
Alright, I hear you. Remora is not good in this format, at this time, excluding sideboard. But Rhystic Study is always good, the question is, is it too slow? Accel could help power it out, what do you think?


As to the Reliquary Tower: The card does seem good in here at first glance, but through Goldfishing, it doesn't appear we'll be drawing quite as many cards as hoped.

I have looked at a more fun deck with those, Ivory Towers, Fact or Fictions, and Standstills, but I don't think that will ever make it past casual play.

Hopo
03-20-2009, 08:48 AM
Besides Remora, also Commandeer is underwhelming when facing creatures. It also blows against the format where you can play 4 Trinispheres. Also, the lack of moxen in legacy seriously hampers remora's power. It works in vintage due to every deck playing 6+ free/cheap mana things and thus giving time walks against the majority of the format. It's not like that at all in legacy, and remora would be really good only against storm combo. Some combo decks don't even care, like Aluren, breakfast and painter.

Still, I like the idea of Polymorph and Progenitus in a mono-U deck. It could be awesome in a different build.

J.V.
03-20-2009, 10:41 AM
There are two huge problems that Remora faces in Legacy that it doesn't run into in Vintage... First Aggro Decks (Yes there are aggro decks in Vintage... just much less common) Remora is nothing short of completely Dead against Aggro Decks. And the other big issue is that it Will tie up all your mana making it significantly worse in legacy, In vintage you have Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Etc. Honestly the best job in legacy for the Role that remora fills is Standstill.

Frenger
03-20-2009, 05:08 PM
Remora is great in Vintage because you can pay his upkeep easier and more consistently with 5 moxen and Sol Ring. You can drop a turn one remora and still have drain mana up, something that's just not possible with this deck (even if drain were legal).

Furthermore, Remora is much stronger in a metagame that consists of mostly combo and control decks with relatively few pure aggro decks. In legacy you'll face a lot more aggro decks than vintage.

Aggro decks make Remora suck, because you're pumping mana into a useless ability, it makes comandeer suck because you can't steal creatures, and it makes meditate really suck, because two attack phases are better than one.

So basically this deck would be strong against combo and certain other decks, but would lose every time to aggro because 12 cards, including the core of the deck are dead in the MU.

This is just something that can't be ported from vintage due to the fundamental differences in the formats.

Scrabble
03-20-2009, 10:55 PM
Still, I like the idea of Polymorph and Progenitus in a mono-U deck. It could be awesome in a different build.

Well, I decided against playing Polymorph/Prog in a recent local tourny due to the negative comments about it (the MUC list is on the first page here), and instead opted to play the always safe, rainbow effreet. Well, the only deck I lost a game to was Ichorid. We went 1 and 1 and decided to split the prize for 1/2. I can honestly say I would rather have had PolyProg instead of the Rainbows, especially against Ichorid. The game I won, and narrowly lost against Ichorid were both due to board races were a four mana 3/1 flyer wasn't getting it done. The two (or 1 + manlands) turn kill Prog would have given would have been much better for sure. The Rainbows didn't hurt me at all in the Goblins match, but I never played them because I found myself almost always wanting to just beat with lands more. The best thing they did all day was feed Force.

If you have any interesting ideas for it let me know. I'm definitely going to be swapping the Rainbows for Poly/Prog.

Zir
03-23-2009, 11:45 AM
I've been testing this for a bit as well, and it seems decent to say the least. Not sure if it's the entire meditate-remora part of the deck or the creaturestealing part, leaning towards the second.
It's absolutely a blast to play though, and it's been treating me quite well (on mws, playing randoms though). I'd like to see something in the cmc2 slot though. Impulse perhaps?

Frenger
03-23-2009, 11:52 AM
I've been testing this for a bit as well, and it seems decent to say the least. Not sure if it's the entire meditate-remora part of the deck or the creaturestealing part, leaning towards the second.
It's absolutely a blast to play though, and it's been treating me quite well (on mws, playing randoms though). I'd like to see something in the cmc2 slot though. Impulse perhaps?

Your cmc two slot is supposed to be remoras upkeep turn two.

Zir
03-23-2009, 12:37 PM
You'll have remora 40% of the time, which means you'll just pass the turn doing nothing 60% 6f the time. Seems like we should find something to go there.

Scrabble
03-24-2009, 01:23 PM
Hmmm. It is true that we do not have a t2 play much of the time. This is a problem, but I don't really see what could be done about it. The list looks packed. I wouldn't really want to cut anything, except maybe 1 Commandeer. Everything else seems like a lock.

The other option is to play Moxes. I don't know though, they've been discussed and I guess just haven't had a conclusion drawn. If they were thrown, it'd definitely turn into an excellerated blue list with quick drops looking to fuel meditate into Poly-Prog. Remora would be there to switch to a control role.