Would the format be more interesting without Tarmogoyf?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Based on this thread.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13118

Note that the question is not whether Tarmogoyf should be banned, or whether it's overpowered. Basically: Do you think Tarmogoyf's absence would make the format more enjoyable?

Let's keep this scientific. It's for posterity.

[kilukru]

Tarmo keep fast aggro in check, allowing control to be efficient, combo is still good right now. With tarmo aggrop just got to get creative, merfolks do this nicely praying on the most played color in the format. Goblin do it by beiing nucking futs and zoo is seiing more and more play by playing the reliable game AND playing tarmo for most of them also.

So no I dont beleive the format would be more interesting without tarmo, I for one think it would be faster since swarm agrro would be more efficient.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tribal and Chalice decks, the only aggro decks not to play Tarmogoyf, don't seem like they really need to be held in check to me. While strong, these decks carry inherent weaknesses and linear strategies. They're not too hard to hate against, generally speaking.

[T is for TOOL]

Note that the question is not whether Tarmogoyf should be banned, or whether it's overpowered. Basically: Do you think Tarmogoyf's absence would make the format more enjoyable?

Let's keep this scientific. It's for posterity.
No. The absence of Tarmogoyf would lead to a 23% drop in format enjoyability over the course of the ensuing year. There would also be a strong resurgence (upwards of 33% increase!) of awful Goyf-less rogue decks by players that mistakenly think their decks have become less awful.

[beastman]

No. Because then how would I kill you with survival? I'd have to spend more mana on worse creatures, and thats lame...
Oh, and combo would become ridiculous.

[Solaran_X]

Following Tarmogoyf's introduction in Future Sight and when people finally realized how good he was, many decks that were previously "non-viable" are now rather competitive in the current metagame.

So while some people complain that allegedly Tarmogoyf has shouldered out other creatures from the format (let's ignore that creatures are inherently the weakest point of Magic), it has allowed for a more diverse selection of competitive decks.

So ask yourself this. What is more important, a diverse range of playable creatures or a diverse range of playable decks?

[Volt]

So while some people complain that allegedly Tarmogoyf has shouldered out other creatures from the format (let's ignore that creatures are inherently the weakest point of Magic), it has allowed for a more diverse selection of competitive decks.

Why are creatures inherently the weakest point of Magic? You're going to have to prove that statement to me.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

No because i like the fact that green has the best creature! Why should someone play green whene there is no goyf?

[Jeet]

No because i like the fact that green has the best creature! Why should someone play green whene there is no goyf?

I think Tarmogoyf is played much more in blue-based decks than green-based decks.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I personally think the only people that don't think Goyf should be banned are the people who spent 40 bucks apiece on them when they got big. I know that is a very broad statement, but i really don't care.

Ever since i started playing legacy a year and a half ago, that's all i've run into, and it's just annoying. It's sad that a Troll Ascetic with a Jitte won't be able to kill that big dumb creature in alot of situations.

Burning Goyf is damn near impossible. Especially through countermagic.

Idk i just think the format would be a whole lot more fun if he wasn't around. I've been preaching this since day one, but hey, i doubt anything will happen anytime soon.

[Kuma]

No, because Goblins would be the number one deck in the format again, and needing at least 8 ways to deal with a turn one Lackey will stifle design.

Also, legacy was far more boring with Goblins as the best deck, IMO.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Goyf only deals with turn one Lackey if you're on the play, so i don't understand your argument very well.

[Kuma]

Goyf only deals with turn one Lackey if you're on the play, so i don't understand your argument very well.

Those were two different points. I wasn't claiming goyf was an answer to turn one Lackey. I was saying that having to design decks that have eight or so answers to turn one Lackey on the draw (since Goblins would now be the number one legacy deck) wouldn't be as fun for me.

[FoulQ]

He's saying that goblins being the number one deck would cause there to be more necessary answers to lackey. Not that tarmogoyf himself stops lackey. It's an indirect relationship. ETA: ninja'd.

I say no. I don't really care about tarmogoyf, the wincon is usually not what makes a deck interesting anyway. And it sucks for me, because I don't own goyfs, so I can't really make any green deck. But I think the format is interesting now because all three archetypes are viable (merfolk and goblins are fine aggro decks).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

But then you're just assuming that Goblins would reign supreme with the banning of one creature. Which i don't understand either. Goblins will always be strong no matter what.

[GreenOne]

No because i like the fact that green has the best creature! Why should someone play green whene there is no goyf?
This is actually a good point. Green gotta have the best creature in the game, for the sake of the flavour of the color pie. On the other hand Green should also be the best color profiting that creature, while it's probably the worst. I'd not argue on a 5/5 vanilla creature for GG, but seems that goyf actually costs UG.

[b4r0n]

No, because Goblins would be the number one deck in the format again, and needing at least 8 ways to deal with a turn one Lackey will stifle design.

Also, legacy was far more boring with Goblins as the best deck, IMO.

I completely agree. I'd much rather deal with Goyfs than Lackeys again. Goyf is one of the biggest reasons why Goblins isn't as dominant as it used to be, and I'm perfectly happy with that. The prevalence of Goyfs allows for much more deck diversity than the prevalence of Lackeys did.


But then you're just assuming that Goblins would reign supreme with the banning of one creature. Which i don't understand either. Goblins will always be strong no matter what.

Goblins will always be strong, but it won't ever be nearly as dominant as it used to be. In a metagame full of Goyfs, Goblins is much more manageable.

[Nemcon]

I think there are many viable decks that can survive without goyf. Are some decks punished for not running goyf? Yes, some, just because of the sheer power a 4/5 + is for 2 mana.
Are there many answers to it? Yes, so I see no reason why it needs to be absent.

[Nessaja]

If tarmogoyf is banned it will probably restore the aggro>control>combo>aggro triangle. Right now, it definitly isn't the case that aggro>control, while the rest does apply. Imo, the ability of (agro)control decks (yes, thresh) to have strong matchups against the entire field isn't a good thing at all.

[SpikeyMikey]

But then you're just assuming that Goblins would reign supreme with the banning of one creature. Which i don't understand either. Goblins will always be strong no matter what.

Please be careful with phrases like "always". I still remember hearing "Keeper will always be the deck to beat in Type 1" and "Psychatog will always be the best win condition for a control deck." This game does change. One day, not only will Goblins not see play in Legacy, but Tarmogoyf won't either.

[beastman]

But then you're just assuming that Goblins would reign supreme with the banning of one creature. Which i don't understand either. Goblins will always be strong no matter what.

Were you around in the days before Goyf? It really doesn't sound like you understand the way that goyf changed the format. Before Threshold had goyf, the only threats they could present in the early game were 1/1's that just got run over by goblins. Goblins isn't nearly as powerful anymore, and yes, it is almost solely because of tarmagoyf.

[Gui]

IMO, probably.

First of all, I know that it's out of question, but Tarmogoyf is strong, but not overpower enough to get banned. It's not the first card to abuse grave and things that happens usually in legacy matchs, and won't be the last.

But, nevertheless, it's an abusive card that plays in the most popular deck in the format. It's a fact that most of the people enjoys the way threshold deals with stuff, and having such solution, thresh gained power. By power I mean players trying to make it to the top.

If not for tamogoyf, people would have harder times with thresh, and even if it could stay on top it would probably be lass played. So, without goyf, the format would have more diversity, and with that, it would be more interesting.

An interesting format have all sorts of strategies and conter-strategies, techs and styles. And tarmogoyf fits most like the style "aggro-control" then the other ones...

I'm not saying Legacy is a poor format. On the contrary, legacy is probably the richest format in magic, but imo tarmogoyf doesn't contribute for it. Although it keeps aggro-control on the scene too...

[sligh16]

I personally think the only people that don't think Goyf should be banned are the people who spent 40 bucks apiece on them when they got big. I know that is a very broad statement, but i really don't care.

Ever since i started playing legacy a year and a half ago, that's all i've run into, and it's just annoying. It's sad that a Troll Ascetic with a Jitte won't be able to kill that big dumb creature in alot of situations.

Burning Goyf is damn near impossible. Especially through countermagic.

Idk i just think the format would be a whole lot more fun if he wasn't around. I've been preaching this since day one, but hey, i doubt anything will happen anytime soon.

Very good point


No because i like the fact that green has the best creature! Why should someone play green whene there is no goyf?

Sadly, it seems that goyf is not green, is blue... (at least if his manacost was GG)

[scrow213]

No because i like the fact that green has the best creature! Why should someone play green whene there is no goyf?

Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, and Elves come to mind, and certainly others would be playable too.

[Zach Tartell]

Were you around in the days before Goyf? It really doesn't sound like you understand the way that goyf changed the format. Before Threshold had goyf, the only threats they could present in the early game were 1/1's that just got run over by goblins. Goblins isn't nearly as powerful anymore, and yes, it is almost solely because of tarmagoyf.

Which is a little weird, right? I mean, they got Warren Weirding (I can't say whether this has helped or hindered, 'cause I don't actually care enough to go through the day 2 lists/other events and breakdown the prominence of RG Goblins compared to RB compared to RBG compared to Mono-red, but I'd think that, at least on paper, it'd help). Which is pretty good against Thresh's threats (all of them! Except crazy new German lists that I'm secretly sure will begin to run Ker Cheep and a Volcanic in order to dodge edict effects, or some equally ridiculous card)(I mean, seriously - That 2/2 Vigalance for WG? Seriously, Clemens?)(To go back to the first parenthesis, I mean, think about it. I'll pay :1::b: to get rid of Goose, Goyf, Tombstalker, Rohnx War Monk, or even Trygon Predator)(the only problem is that sometimes they have two guys out, or have a counterspell)(and don't suggest Wort, sillybilly. She's fairly terrible, if my memory of trolling the Goblins thread serves me well).

And Counterbalance sucks against Goblins, so I really don't understand why Goblins isn't doing well.

Can somebody get... Jeff Folinous (isn't he pretty much the last consistantly successful Goblins player?) on the phone and have him explain this to me?

[ScatmanX]

Don´t forget that, besides Warren Weirding, goblins (and everyone else) also have Relic of Progenitus... As a goblin player, I´ve never been scared of Goyf. There are solid answers.

And I´m with you. Do not know exactly why goblin is doing so bad...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No because i like the fact that green has the best creature! Why should someone play green whene there is no goyf?

Fun fact: I counted up all different colored cards played in top 8s of major tournaments over a six month period once, right before GP Columbus. The original point was to demonstrate that Legacy was not, as some idiots who never play the format but suppose they're experts because they've played Vintage suppose, a blue and black dominated format. In fact, blue and red were statistically about dead even for number of cards played, with red having a slight edge. Green was exactly proportionate to the card pool, while black and white were about equally underrepresented.

I would expect that Green would be more played in a format without Goyf. It would be played for reasons outside of Grip and Goyf, for instance. Survival, LftL, Enchantress, CRET Belcher, Elves. Obviously Thresh. It's hard to project. Other new, powerful cards have come out since then. Natural Order for Progenitus ain't bad either.

It may be that I have a bias here; having seen Columbus destroyed by a casual unerrata, I sort of just wanted to get back to the Legacy that existed before Flash, but Tarmogoyf sort of changed everything in some fairly drastic ways. But I can't think of another card I've really ever been bothered by in quite the same way. I didn't want to see Flash banned because I thought it made the format less interesting, for instance, but because it had to be banned or the format would die and anyone who didn't see that was an idiot. Tarmogoyf it's just... it makes the challenges of deckbuilding less dynamic when there's such a ready and all purpose answer to, "Right, what kill condition should I run?"

[Seriously]

tarmogoyf doesnt have flying, trample, haste, vigilance, shroud, lifelink or even horsemanship. its just a big wad of beef that beats and its green, the color known for big wads of beef that beat. Im not seeing what the problem is. eventually when they print something stronger, is everyone going to freak out over that too, seriously. like over 9000 cards have been printed since revised, we dont have to stick to playing with craw wurms and scaled wurms anymore when we need a big wad of beef that beats. I remember when serra angels and shivan dragons ended games when they hit the board. nobody called for them to be banned to make playing more interesting. though Im sure some players with shitty decks would have agreed to do that. the game has just evolved to have better beatsticks and will always keep evolving as long as it remains in print.

[AnwarA101]

It may be that I have a bias here; having seen Columbus destroyed by a casual unerrata, I sort of just wanted to get back to the Legacy that existed before Flash, but Tarmogoyf sort of changed everything in some fairly drastic ways.

While I can understand the nostalgia for that time, its not like removing one card would return us immediatedly back to that format. The card pool has changed and things like Stifle/Dreadnought (wording was changed) and Painter/Grindstone not to mention Ad Nauseam were not in that format. Along with cards like Tombstalker and other creatures as well.

[Volt]

tarmogoyf doesnt have flying, trample, haste, vigilance, shroud, lifelink or even horsemanship. its just a big wad of beef that beats and its green, the color known for big wads of beef that beat. Im not seeing what the problem is.

Must I reductio ad absurdum this shitty argument into oblivion once again? Seriously.

[scrow213]

tarmogoyf doesnt have flying, trample, haste, vigilance, shroud, lifelink or even horsemanship. its just a big wad of beef that beats and its green, the color known for big wads of beef that beat. Im not seeing what the problem is. eventually when they print something stronger, is everyone going to freak out over that too, seriously. like over 9000 cards have been printed since revised, we dont have to stick to playing with craw wurms and scaled wurms anymore when we need a big wad of beef that beats. I remember when serra angels and shivan dragons ended games when they hit the board. nobody called for them to be banned to make playing more interesting. though Im sure some players with shitty decks would have agreed to do that. the game has just evolved to have better beatsticks and will always keep evolving as long as it remains in print.

Have you not been reading the other thread at all? It is not the fact that it is OP. It is the fact that deck design is now:

"Hmm, what beatstick do I play? Oh! Tarmogoyf, duh!"

It just makes the threat question rhetorical. It doesn't matter, just play 'goyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

While I can understand the nostalgia for that time, its not like removing one card would return us immediatedly back to that format. The card pool has changed and things like Stifle/Dreadnought (wording was changed) and Painter/Grindstone not to mention Ad Nauseam were not in that format. Along with cards like Tombstalker and other creatures as well.

From a deckbuilding perspective, however, I think the format without Goyf would be more like the prior format, in terms of retaining the creature question. I'd be very interested in a format where Negator and Tombstalker, Wild Nacatl and Flametongue Kavu duke it out.



tarmogoyf doesnt have flying, trample, haste, vigilance, shroud, lifelink or even horsemanship. its just a big wad of beef that beats and its green, the color known for big wads of beef that beat. Im not seeing what the problem is. eventually when they print something stronger, is everyone going to freak out over that too, seriously. like over 9000 cards have been printed since revised, we dont have to stick to playing with craw wurms and scaled wurms anymore when we need a big wad of beef that beats. I remember when serra angels and shivan dragons ended games when they hit the board. nobody called for them to be banned to make playing more interesting. though Im sure some players with shitty decks would have agreed to do that. the game has just evolved to have better beatsticks and will always keep evolving as long as it remains in print.

The game evolved to have better creatures over time, yes, and cards like Jackal Pup, Masticore and Morphling weren't nearly as good as they used to be. But, even as the power curve on creatures lifted, there was still a tension in deck design between casting cost and power, between commitment and color requirement, between synergy and effect.

Then Tarmogoyf was printed, and there really wasn't a question; Tarmogoyf is better. It almost always makes sense to splash for Tarmogoyf. Even in Tribal decks Goyf gets played.

I almost didn't respond to this post because you're blatantly ignoring actual arguments that have been made in favor of this kneejerk, asshat response that "Lawl it's just a beater". Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. It's a beater that's pretty much always better than other beaters.

I'm having trouble imagining them printing a card that obsoletes Tarmogoyf that wouldn't require banning, anyway, so this whole, "Some other creature will eventually obsolete Tarmogoyf" argument is nonsense. There's a general power curve for creatures, even the best ones, and creatures from Savannah Lions to Serendib Efreet to Negator and Wild Mongrel, Exalted Angel and Dark Confidant haven't strayed too far from it. Tarmogoyf is way, way outside of that curve.

[Clark Kant]

Since we're talking strictly theory.

Yes, Green deserves to have the best creature in the game. That's really the only reason to play green. But unfortunately, Tarmogoyf almost entirely sees play in blue based decks and black based decks rather than in green based decks.

So I think theoretically, the ideal situation would've been if Tarmogoyf had a cc of GG. I don't think the card would have seen nearly as much play or shoved out nearly as many other creatures were this the case.

[Clark Kant]

If tarmogoyf is banned it will probably restore the aggro>control>combo>aggro triangle. Right now, it definitly isn't the case that aggro>control, while the rest does apply. Imo, the ability of (agro)control decks (yes, thresh) to have strong matchups against the entire field isn't a good thing at all.

That's true and all but, counterbalance is just as much to blame for that as Tarmogoyf.

I also happen to think that Tombstalker is every bit as undercosted and in some ways more powerful than Tarmogoyf. And Counterbalance and Ad Nauseum are probably better than Goyf strictly in terms of power level (though they serve completely different roles). It's just that they're not as prevalent since both Tombstalker and Counterbalance are much harder cards to splash, and Ad Nauseum is limited to combo decks. That's why I think Goyf should be GG, so that no one deck could hope to support the UU for Balance, the BB for Stalker and the GG for Goyf all in the same deck.

Just wondering, but would Wizards ever consider errataing casting costs?

[Rood]

I think It would be pretty cool if Goyf got axed TBH, but then we'd see even more tribe and I think I'd get more sick of tribe then I am Goyf. Goyf makes cards even better then they should be, like Spell Snare, Threads, Sower. Also, without Goyf I think I'd enjoy to see Wild Mongrel and friends come back onto the scene. Tombstalker would instantly become the next huge thing though, since it would then become the most efficient beater, but not nearly as easy to incorporate into a scheme.

[Seriously]

Must I reductio ad absurdum this shitty argument into oblivion once again? Seriously.

yes, please, and completely in latin if possible.




Have you not been reading the other thread at all? It is not the fact that it is OP. It is the fact that deck design is now:

"Hmm, what beatstick do I play? Oh! Tarmogoyf, duh!"

It just makes the threat question rhetorical. It doesn't matter, just play 'goyf.

yes, I read it and my point was that deck design 16 years ago was:

"hmm, I play white, ok I'll play serra angel, duh!"
"hmm, I play red, ok, I'll play shivan dragon, duh!"
"hrmm, I play green, ok I'll play craw wurm, duh!"

now, 16 years later its just:

"hmm, I play green, ok I'll play goyf, duh!"
"hmm, I play black, ok I'll play tombstalker, duh!"

I dont understand your point. the best creatures are no longer the best creatures and better creatures are out there, so why not play them.



I'd be very interested in a format where Negator and Tombstalker, Wild Nacatl and Flametongue Kavu duke it out.

extended ? casual ? peasant ?




I almost didn't respond to this post because you're blatantly ignoring actual arguments that have been made in favor of this kneejerk, asshat response that "Lawl it's just a beater". Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. It's a beater that's pretty much always better than other beaters.

Im not blatantly ignoring anything. you're assuming that I somehow know all facts and arguments that you do about any of this. all I saw was a poll, so I took it, I read like 3 posts and made my comment.

tarmogoyf is just a beater. it can still be countered, bounced, removed from game, killed, chump blocked, gang blocked or dealt with in the same way you would deal with any other huge creature on the board.

people saying stupid stuff like 'hey, do we ban this card or not, cause I dont like it.' doesnt really have any value to it. it doesnt really help the format out. it doesnt really do anything except divide the people here into two groups, the ones for the card and the ones against the card. at which time they just argue about it on the internet.

[Jak]

Are people undertsanding the poll? Or do they really think Tarmogoyf makes the format interesting?

Tarmogoyf totally kicks red in the balls, he kicks every other creature in the balls leaving only a handful left worth playing, and he makes CB/Top a lot stronger.

Recently, I was thinking about a deck and dismissed it because I thought a 3/4 for 3 was bad. Do you know how ridiculous this would be in older Legacy? It would be played. Now, I am not on a nostalgia high, but the fact that good creatures are shafted in every color because of him is bad.

Green is fine without Goyf so using that as an argument is stupid.

[rockout]

@Seriously: How come you don't capitalize the first letter of the first word in your sentences?

Tarmogoyf is not going to get banned. It's unfortunate that the format comes down to play Tarmogoyf or have an answer to Tarmogoyf (among other things.) That's the format we know and love and talking back and forth about it won't change the fact that Tarmogoyf is amazing.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Absolutely. It would allow people to run creatures that are just fun to play like FtK, Wild Mongrel, and Loxodon Hierarch. I am not against cards that are good, but rather I hate cards that just make shit boring and that is Goyf. He makes creature based decks less exciting since if you are playing green he is auto-include. I also just get tired of seeing it. I don't mind it since it dies to nearly every fucking removal spell ever printed but it just gets old.

In short, the format would be a lot more innovative and unique without 1G 4/5 creatures.

[scrow213]

yes, please, and completely in latin if possible.





yes, I read it and my point was that deck design 16 years ago was:

"hmm, I play white, ok I'll play serra angel, duh!"
"hmm, I play red, ok, I'll play shivan dragon, duh!"
"hrmm, I play green, ok I'll play craw wurm, duh!"

now, 16 years later its just:

"hmm, I play green, ok I'll play goyf, duh!"
"hmm, I play black, ok I'll play tombstalker, duh!"

I dont understand your point. the best creatures are no longer the best creatures and better creatures are out there, so why not play them.

Im not blatantly ignoring anything. you're assuming that I somehow know all facts and arguments that you do about any of this. all I saw was a poll, so I took it, I read like 3 posts and made my comment.

tarmogoyf is just a beater. it can still be countered, bounced, removed from game, killed, chump blocked, gang blocked or dealt with in the same way you would deal with any other huge creature on the board.

people saying stupid stuff like 'hey, do we ban this card or not, cause I dont like it.' doesnt really have any value to it. it doesnt really help the format out. it doesnt really do anything except divide the people here into two groups, the ones for the card and the ones against the card. at which time they just argue about it on the internet.

Actually it is more like:

"I am playing green? Tarmogoyf! I'm playing red/black/white/blue? Splash green for Tarmogoyf!"

Nice argument asshat. Nobody said "ban this card, I don't like it". They said "This card makes almost any other creature pointless to play." As stated already, it sits far outside the curve that has been running for years, it is easily splashable, and it slides into almost every single deck.

As to CB being to blame for aggro-control being so good, I say "wrong". CB makes aggro control playable, Tarmogoyf fills the hole that aggro control shouldn't have. An easy to play, cheap, huge beatstick. They had Werebear, which was small at first and got better as the game progressed. Now they have 1G 4/5 beatstick coming down turn 2 with backup.

[Volt]

@Seriously: If you're going to be an obnoxious git who thinks he is too cool for capital letters, you should at least try to have fresh arguments that have not already been destroyed. As for the reductio ad absurdum thing, go read page 10 of the "Blame it on the Counterbalance" thread.

[Citrus-God]

I dont understand your point. the best creatures are no longer the best creatures and better creatures are out there, so why not play them.

Before Goyf, the best creatures in the game were Exalted Angel and Psychatog; I don't see anybody back then splashing those colors just to play those cards, and even if they did, they either did something absurd like run Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox to pump out that Angel or run a ton of draw to be able to use Tog effectively.



tarmogoyf is just a beater. it can still be countered, bounced, removed from game, killed, chump blocked, gang blocked or dealt with in the same way you would deal with any other huge creature on the board.

Hypothetically speaking, if Ancestral Recall were to be unrestricted in Vintage, then Misdirections, 8 Duress, REBs, Pyroblasts and FoWs would obviously be the solution to Tarmogoyf. But why is Recall still restricted? Because if it's unrestricted, then the format becomes extra volatile. And Vintage is pretty volatile already. Just imagine how the games go; the player who's going 2nd is now forced to mull until he has an answer to Recall or he loses, meanwhile the player going 1st can easily just cast Recall and chain into other Recalls and counters.

And don't even say Goyf doesn't even add up to that or that decks like control and combo have a decent chance against decks running Goyf; the deck running Goyf only needs to run 6-8 fetchlands and some number of Tropical Islands just to use Goyf. Goyf also doesnt take very much effort or space to use, which allows those decks running Tarmogoyf to run cards like Counterbalance/SDT and Thoughtseize for semi-shroud effects.




people saying stupid stuff like 'hey, do we ban this card or not, cause I dont like it.' doesnt really have any value to it. it doesnt really help the format out. it doesnt really do anything except divide the people here into two groups, the ones for the card and the ones against the card. at which time they just argue about it on the internet.

They said the same about LED and Burning Wish, Trinisphere and other random bull crap. Imagine playing 4 Trinisphere era Vintage; you either play Stax or Workshop Aggro. There was no way in hell anything else from that era would have been able to function under 1st turn Trinisphere without being overran. And don't even bring FoW into this; if they counter it, that's fine; Stax/Aggro Workshop is still in the game. If that deck without FoW can't answer it, it loses.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I really could care less if Goblins are the big deck again. I play Zoo anyway so it's a laugh of a matchup.

But from the standpoint of everyone else, i don't think Goblins is that hard to deal with. Sure they will just goldfish/rape you every now and again, but Thresh has creatures like Rhox War Monk. Anything with an ass end of 2 or 3 is good enough against goblins.

But i'm done with this Goblins argument, blindy assuming stuff isn't what i like to argue about.

It's pretty sad when double burn spells can't kill him, creatures + equipment have a tough time, when walls can't block him worth a shit, etc. Having a 4/5, 5/6, 6/7, 7/8 for 1G with no drawbacks, is just stupid. End of story.

[Seriously]

@Seriously: How come you don't capitalize the first letter of the first word in your sentences?

because its the internet and I really dont care. this isnt exactly a formal environment. people have signatures like 'the hammer is my penis' and titles like "your shits retarded". I really dont feel that out of place with my lack of capitalization, proper punctuation or grammar. as long as its not an eye sore, like some of the other posts I see here, I dont see what the problem would be.



Actually it is more like:

"I am playing green? Tarmogoyf! I'm playing red/black/white/blue? Splash green for Tarmogoyf!"


sure, but up until morphling, for what hes worth, blue always had to splash a color for a beater. why anyone wouldnt splash a color if it was easy to play one of the best creatures is beyond me. unless it caused great problems with the manabase. I dont know if you've noticed or not, but in legacy, people splash colors for a card all the time.



Nice argument asshat. Nobody said "ban this card, I don't like it". They said "This card makes almost any other creature pointless to play." As stated already, it sits far outside the curve that has been running for years, it is easily splashable, and it slides into almost every single deck.

no, not verbatim, thanks, I knew that though. it was a general reference to all of you people constantly calling for someone to ban something cause you dont specifically like playing against it. right before the GP there was that whole thread about banning: counterbalance, sensei's divining top, lion's eye diamond, etc. all because people didnt like them or what they did to the format. if you all want a slower, weaker format, then play a different one.


... They had Werebear, which was small at first and got better as the game progressed. Now they have 1G 4/5 beatstick coming down turn 2 with backup.

goyf gets better as the game goes along, just like werebear. in all of my goyf playing though, I dont think I've ever had him come down as a 4/5 on the second turn. usually a 2/3, maybe a 3/4, but a 4/5 ? Im sure its possible some how I've just never seen it. sure, 3rd turn maybe, but by anyones 3rd turn they've already seen 1/6th of their deck and should have hopefully seen some form of removal by then.

[scrow213]

sure, but up until morphling, for what hes worth, blue always had to splash a color for a beater. why anyone wouldnt splash a color if it was easy to play one of the best creatures is beyond me. unless it caused great problems with the manabase. I dont know if you've noticed or not, but in legacy, people splash colors for a card all the time.

Yes, blue splashed for a beater. Now EVERY deck splashes for THE SAME beater. Straw man ftw!



goyf gets better as the game goes along, just like werebear. in all of my goyf playing though, I dont think I've ever had him come down as a 4/5 on the second turn. usually a 2/3, maybe a 3/4, but a 4/5 ? Im sure its possible some how I've just never seen it. sure, 3rd turn maybe, but by anyones 3rd turn they've already seen 1/6th of their deck and should have hopefully seen some form of removal by then.

The point was the aggro-control didn't have an amazingly huge, cheap, drawbackless beatstick. They had a 1/1 until they were able to get to Thresh. Now they don't even have to do that, because they can just let their opponent fill the yard for them.

Goyf starts better than Werebear always. Even if it comes down as a 3/4, it is still a 3/4 for 1G, sooner than Werebear hits thresh. And we are not even fucking arguing that he is broken or can't be stopped. He just makes most other creatures, now and for the forseeable future, worthless to play. Are you seriously that much of a toolshed to not see the discussion in front of you?

[Jak]

Your posts are annoying to read because they contain nothing but shit AND you don't capitalize. You keep spitting out the same stuff and not reading so I really hope no one answers you and we can continue this discussion without you.

[Seriously]

@Seriously: If you're going to be an obnoxious git who thinks he is too cool for capital letters, you should at least try to have fresh arguments that have not already been destroyed. As for the reductio ad absurdum thing, go read page 10 of the "Blame it on the Counterbalance" thread.

sorry, Im ignoring you. I said latin only. that means only in latin.



If that deck without FoW can't answer it, it loses.

doesnt the deck without enough answers always lose ? whether the game ends on the first turn or the tenth. dont the best decks always deserve to dominate until something new comes out that completely changes everything ?




It's pretty sad when double burn spells can't kill him, creatures + equipment have a tough time, when walls can't block him worth a shit, etc. Having a 4/5, 5/6, 6/7, 7/8 for 1G with no drawbacks, is just stupid. End of story.

tried playing against battlegrace angel/wall of reverence/plumeveil in standard ? guess how many burn spells it takes to try and get rid of those things. it takes atleast 2 burns spells to get rid of a serra angel or a shivan dragon.

[Volt]

obvious troll is obvious.

don't feed the troll.

[Seriously]

AND you don't capitalize.


:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

.

Seriously? This is your post? It's time to clean up your act; we are getting complaints.

-PR

[scrow213]

Your posts are annoying to read because they contain nothing but shit AND you don't capitalize. You keep spitting out the same stuff and not reading so I really hope no one answers you and we can continue this discussion without you.

This. Back to the topic. I think he just breeds stagnation.

"Oh, two mana! What are you gonna play? Oh wait, you have a green-producing dual and another land. Lemme guess... Tarmogoyf?"

There is no more challenge of "What creature works best here" because the answer is almost always Tarmogoyf. And since Legacy is both (i)based on the combat step and (ii)Eternal, Tarmogoyf is going to be prominent for a long time to come. He won't rotate out, Legacy will (most likely) always be combat-oriented in general, so we get to see Tarmogoyf in more than half of every Top 8 from now until who knows when.

[Citrus-God]

sure, but up until morphling, for what hes worth, blue always had to splash a color for a beater. why anyone wouldnt splash a color if it was easy to play one of the best creatures is beyond me. unless it caused great problems with the manabase. I dont know if you've noticed or not, but in legacy, people splash colors for a card all the time.

So has every other deck in the history of competitive magic. Trix splashed Red for Fire // Ice and 5-6 REB effects, Counter-post splashed Red for Stone Rain and Pyroclasm, The Rock for Gifts Ungiven, etc... etc...

But decks are splashing Green for a big beater that wins games. Usually cards are splashed to make the deck more consistent and/or flexible. Yes, Goyf does just that, considering that you are randomly winning upon his resolution. In short, decks splash colors for cards that fix weaknesses, but when a deck splashes for Goyf, it's using the raw power of the card to make up for it's weakness.



goyf gets better as the game goes along, just like werebear. in all of my goyf playing though, I dont think I've ever had him come down as a 4/5 on the second turn. usually a 2/3, maybe a 3/4, but a 4/5 ? Im sure its possible some how I've just never seen it. sure, 3rd turn maybe, but by anyones 3rd turn they've already seen 1/6th of their deck and should have hopefully seen some form of removal by then.

Werebear doesnt go, "Goyf, Goyf, Goyf, I win," on turn 4. Goyf on Turn 2 also demolishes Vial Goblins.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

@Seriously: Note this format is Legacy, not Standard.

That is all.

[Citrus-God]

doesnt the deck without enough answers always lose ? whether the game ends on the first turn or the tenth. dont the best decks always deserve to dominate until something new comes out that completely changes everything ?

Most decks that win on the first turn make up for it because opening hands are volatile. Decks that tend to win on Turn 10 tend to be more stable. If you mix the two together, you basically create It's the Fear or Landstill w/ Goyf. They're control decks that can either end the game early or win the late game advantage. Their capabilities are more than just great.

Also, it's a game. The point of a game is to have fun, but still win. Magic is a hobby, if anything. If those new cards don't come out to answer the big thing, then restrictions and bans must come into play. Trinisphere, Burning Wish and LED got restricted in Vintage because players bitch and moan - I'm sure we can do the same here.

[rockout]

tried playing against battlegrace angel/wall of reverence/plumeveil in standard ? guess how many burn spells it takes to try and get rid of those things. it takes atleast 2 burns spells to get rid of a serra angel or a shivan dragon.

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq166/rockoutMTG/win.jpg

[Seriously]

Yes, blue splashed for a beater. Now EVERY deck splashes for THE SAME beater. Straw man ftw!


by EVERY, Im assuming you mean DTW/DTB, and by EVERY deck to beat that splashes green for goyf Im assuming you mean merfolk, ANT, vial goblins, and ichorid ? or do you mean the over 9000 lanstill and threshold variants, who some already ran green anyways ?




Werebear doesnt go, "Goyf, Goyf, Goyf, I win," on turn 4. Goyf on Turn 2 also demolishes Vial Goblins.

true, but I rarely draw 3 goyfs and have them all in play by turn 4 anyways. but as long as we're talking god hands. turn 1 lackey, turn 2 warren weirding your goyf into siege-gang commander off the lackey. go.




But decks are splashing Green for a big beater that wins games. Usually cards are splashed to make the deck more consistent and/or flexible. Yes, Goyf does just that, considering that you are randomly winning upon his resolution. In short, decks splash colors for cards that fix weaknesses, but when a deck splashes for Goyf, it's using the raw power of the card to make up for it's weakness.

isnt a NLU spashling green for goyf an example of spashing a color for a card to fix a weakness ? what would it run without goyf as a beater ? you cant rely on shackles/sower for everything. if your opponent was playing combo, death by sower would take forever.



@Seriously: Note this format is Legacy, not Standard.

ok, thanks, I wasnt sure. latin is my native language so when reading these posts, things get lost in translation.



Also, it's a game. The point of a game is to have fun, but still win. Magic is a hobby, if anything. If those new cards don't come out to answer the big thing, then restrictions and bans must come into play. Trinisphere, Burning Wish and LED got restricted in Vintage because players bitch and moan - I'm sure we can do the same here.

yes, sure, I agree. some people enjoy playing big creatures and think thats fun. some people enjoying winning and think thats fun. some people enjoy both and think thats fun. and some people dont like any of the above. different people want different things out of the game. you can always go around banning things just because some people dont like them, regardless of how 'uncreative' or 'constantly' those things show up. flash could win on turn zero, I can see how that could be a bad thing to have running about, goyf however, is just a big beater for cheap.

relic of progenitus came out, that answers goyf pretty well.

[Gui]

I guess what's happening to tarmogoyf right now happened before with other creatures. Discussing if goyf is good or not is pointless. It is good, it is overrrated. The whole topic came from this idea.
In the whole legacy thing, the most common thing deckbuilders all around search for broken cards and fit into their decks. Tarmogoyf just happens to be one of the most common broken card to be fit into the deck.
I don't think the existence of him decreases the amount of decks and ideas possible in legacy... so, my previous opinion was that the format would probably be more interesting... but now I should say, if it wasn't goyf, other things would exist...
If there was no goyf, people probably would splash less green. But the whole green splash is the drawback: people started playing more wastelands too... So, the format is so versatile that it can absorb such creature and yet have competitive solutions against it.
Of course the burn effects to kill creatures went down, but other things shown up, like running edicts and smothers instead...
This is still such an interesting format xD

[scrow213]

by EVERY, Im assuming you mean DTW/DTB, and by EVERY deck to beat that splashes green for goyf Im assuming you mean merfolk, ANT, vial goblins, and ichorid ? or do you mean the over 9000 lanstill and threshold variants, who some already ran green anyways ?

Straw man argument. I was not contending that decks are now splashing green. I am contending that any deck that can fit Tarmogoyf does.



yes, sure, I agree. some people enjoy playing big creatures and think thats fun. some people enjoying winning and think thats fun. some people enjoy both and think thats fun. and some people dont like any of the above. different people want different things out of the game. you can always go around banning things just because some people dont like them, regardless of how 'uncreative' or 'constantly' those things show up. flash could win on turn zero, I can see how that could be a bad thing to have running about, goyf however, is just a big beater for cheap.

relic of progenitus came out, that answers goyf pretty well.

So yeah, back to the "ban stuff you don't like" argument huh? Well-played.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Generally speaking, red burn spells should kill 1-3cc creatures. Like, a 3/4 with an extra ability for three mana used to be a pretty good deal, since you could say, "Hey look, ass outside of Lightning Bolt range. Plus it does something". Hence why Burning-Tree Shaman, Razor Golem, Anurid Brushopper and Serendib Efreet saw some competitive play in Legacy.

Now, this wasn't the top of the curve. Werebear was better. But even as the top creature in the format, it had a serious problem in that it wasn't that unusual to have trouble getting to Thresh before the fourth or fifth turns, if not later.

[Citrus-God]

by EVERY, Im assuming you mean DTW/DTB, and by EVERY deck to beat that splashes green for goyf Im assuming you mean merfolk, ANT, vial goblins, and ichorid ? or do you mean the over 9000 lanstill and threshold variants, who some already ran green anyways ?

Aggro Loam, Survival, Thresh, ITF, Landstill, Deadguy, Sui Black, Sligh, the list keeps going.






true, but I rarely draw 3 goyfs and have them all in play by turn 4 anyways. but as long as we're talking god hands. turn 1 lackey, turn 2 warren weirding your goyf into siege-gang commander off the lackey. go.

Even if you draw like two Goyfs, you're still way ahead. Heck, even a resolved Goyf can wreck the whole game.





isnt a NLU spashling green for goyf an example of spashing a color for a card to fix a weakness ? what would it run without goyf as a beater ? you cant rely on shackles/sower for everything. if your opponent was playing combo, death by sower would take forever.

Not really; I said splashing for Goyf isn't fixing a weakness, it's making up for the deck's weakness[es] by winning through sheer power. And against combo, you can beat with Confidants and Trygons.



yes, sure, I agree. some people enjoy playing big creatures and think thats fun. some people enjoying winning and think thats fun. some people enjoy both and think thats fun. and some people dont like any of the above. different people want different things out of the game. you can always go around banning things just because some people dont like them, regardless of how 'uncreative' or 'constantly' those things show up. flash could win on turn zero, I can see how that could be a bad thing to have running about, goyf however, is just a big beater for cheap.




relic of progenitus came out, that answers goyf pretty well.

Actually, I think the better answer to Goyf is actually running a creature bigger than Goyf. Progenitus + NO should be the answer. Relic blows; the Goyf player can just crack a fetch, cast a sorcery and an instant. That should bring it back up to 3/4-4/5. If you say they need those cards in hand, there's also SDT and cantrips to find other cards to fill the yard.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Indeed. The answer to Goyf is to play NO for Progenitus.

Now if only we could think of a green creature to sac to NO that you'd really want to run in your deck anyway...

No, wait, you make your creature bigger by playing Life from the Loam and Countryside Crusher/Terravore. Of course, you might want to fit in a 2cc threat too...

Wait, wait, I know. Sutured Ghoul...

Frankly, I don't know why some Dreadstill lists aren't running Goyf, but there's always that if you want it.

[from Cairo]

I agree with Seriously.

It's just a vanilla guy, yes its an amazing p/t to cmc, but it can be answered like any other large guy.

Like others are saying it makes deck development a little less diverse cause finding a good win condition is easy, and one has to consider Tarmogoyf's effect to your game plan in that you need to pack an answer or a way to win around him (but this is often a variable in deck design being prepared for the meta, it just happens to be more predictable than it maybe used to be).

Tarmogoyf made bad creatures go from underwhelming to unjustifiable, because before you could play something like Troll Ascetic or w/e and it was considered ok, and now Tarmogoyf is obviously better. But if it wasn't Tarmogoyf it would be something else, there are always cards that do what other cards do better.

Tarmogoyf also made relying solely on Red for creature removal a bad strategy, but this format can access splashes no problem so adding Black or White to cover that hole shouldn't be the end of the world.

I agree he changed the format, but I don't really have an issue with it. Good cards effected the format in the past and will in the future.

[Seriously]

Aggro Loam, Survival, Thresh, ITF, Landstill, Deadguy, Sui Black, Sligh, the list keeps going. ITF, deadguy, suiblack, sligh, etc arent DTW/DTB. but Im sure you could get a crazy long list if you tracked down every last deck that had a goyf in it at one point or another.





Even if you draw like two Goyfs, you're still way ahead. Heck, even a resolved Goyf can wreck the whole game.

in a format where every card played should be a threat or an answer, anything resolving is a threat to some degree.



Actually, I think the better answer to Goyf is actually running a creature bigger than Goyf. Progenitus + NO should be the answer. Relic blows; the Goyf player can just crack a fetch, cast a sorcery and an instant. That should bring it back up to 3/4-4/5. If you say they need those cards in hand, there's also SDT and cantrips to find other cards to fill the yard.


sac fanatic, in response remove relic from the game. you're welcome to crack a fetch in response and play spells off that, but unless its a grip, I dont see things going over well for your goyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I fundamentally refuse the "it's just a creature" argument.

Ancestral Recall is just a spell. Black Lotus is just an artifact. In the beginning of the game, creatures were far less powerful and spells were often, unintentionally, overly so. As time went on the balance shifted a bit, and now generally there's a better understanding of how to make creatures competitive. Of late, however, none of it matters because Tarmogoyf clearly went beyond this. It's natural that as they push creatures, mistakes occur. There's no reason not to fix them, however.

Several creatures are already banned, also, that are much less relevant than Tarmogoyf, merely for being part of a combo. Hermit Druid, Worldgorger Dragon, Goblin Recruiter- none of these are half as good as Tarmogoyf, and they're already banned.


sac fanatic, in response remove relic from the game. you're welcome to crack a fetch in response and play spells off that, but unless its a grip, I dont see things going over well for your goyf.

What are you talking about? Let the Relic trigger resolve, then crack a fetchland or play a brainstorm. Bamf, Fanatic trigger doesn't do anything. This convoluted plan didn't work. There are better ways to kill Tarmogoyf anyway, albeit not with red removal outside of Spitebellows. The problem has nothing to do with Goyf being unkillable, it's his impact on the creature pool and deck design that's a problem.

[Shion]

Frankly, I don't know why some Dreadstill lists aren't running Goyf, but there's always that if you want it.

Some dreadstill list's DO run Goyf. I've also seen it in Merfolk, Goblins, Landstill, Survival, sligh, Faeries, Aluren, The Rock, Aggro Loam, Beserk Stompy, Suicide Black, Zoo, Painter's Combo, Cephalid Breakfast, Trinketnaught, It's the Fear, Affinity.

Some decks bolded for emphasis.

It's the 8th most played card in legacy top 8's on Deckcheck.

Seriously, it's retarded.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, yes, I think the lists that don't play Goyf in Dreadstill are silly. Still. An interesting statistic.

Seven more played cards in Legacy. Island, Mountain, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta, Wasteland, Brainstorm and Force of Will are more played. Note that these records go back more than two years before Goyf even became legal. More played than StP or any of the Dual Lands.

[Citrus-God]

Indeed. The answer to Goyf is to play NO for Progenitus.

Now if only we could think of a green creature to sac to NO that you'd really want to run in your deck anyway...

I have always been a fan of answering a threat with an even better threat. If somebody resolves a Recall, you try and resolve something as powerful; a Necropotence, Yawg Bargain, Yawg Will?

The same applies to Goyf + [insert more dominating threat here] philosophy, NO -> Progenitus is one of them. And yes, I've realized that I forgot about Dreadnought and the Aggro Loam kids. I know you were arguing that point as well, but now it just seems a little anti climatic that I'm typing this.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Um. My point was that every single deck that runs a bigger creature than Goyf tends to also run Goyf, with a few exceptions.

Because if your strategy already revolves around big beaters... why the fuck aren't you playing Goyf?

[thefreakaccident]

Those were two different points. I wasn't claiming goyf was an answer to turn one Lackey. I was saying that having to design decks that have eight or so answers to turn one Lackey on the draw (since Goblins would now be the number one legacy deck) wouldn't be as fun for me.

Those days = no bueno ...

Goy is a good thing

[scrow213]

Those days = no bueno ...

Goy is a good thing

Nice argument. "Goblins is a good deck and 'goyf is good against it. Therefore 'goyf stays!"

[Citrus-God]

Um. My point was that every single deck that runs a bigger creature than Goyf tends to also run Goyf, with a few exceptions.

Because if your strategy already revolves around big beaters... why the fuck aren't you playing Goyf?

Makes sense.

I was just saying, "solve a problem with another legit problem."

[from Cairo]

Ancestral Recall is just a spell. Black Lotus is just an artifact. In the beginning of the game, creatures were far less powerful and spells were often, unintentionally, overly so. As time went on the balance shifted a bit, and now generally there's a better understanding of how to make creatures competitive. Of late, however, none of it matters because Tarmogoyf clearly went beyond this. It's natural that as they push creatures, mistakes occur.


The best Creatures are still less powerful than the best Spells. Creatures with NO abilities are monumentally less powerful than the best spells. If Tarmogoyf had a comes into play effect of drawing 3 cards or cost no mana and sac'd to provide 3 I could see where you were going with this...



Hermit Druid- none of these are half as good as Tarmogoyf, and they're already banned.


Hermit Druid is alot more than half as good as Tarmogoyf...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The best Creatures are still less powerful than the best Spells.

By what measure? Is this necessarily so? Nearly every format revolves around creatures, with certain iterations of Vintage being one of the few exceptions. Even then, creatures certainly play an important role. Recurring sources of damage, with inbuilt answers to other creatures, are pretty good.

Regardless. There are about six to ten cards on the banned list that are simply much more ludicrously powerful than other cards that should still stay on the banned list. Flash-Hulk, for instance, was more powerful than all but a handful of cards on the banned list; I'd say it was more powerful than 7 of the Power 9 (everything except Recall and Lotus).

This doesn't really an argument make.


Creatures with NO abilities are monumentally less powerful than the best spells.

Statistics don't back this up. Tarmogoyf is, with less time in the format mind, showing up more than StP, more than any Dual Land, more than Aether Vial and Life from the Loam combined, more than Duress and Thoughtseize combined. The only spells that saw more top 8 play, according to Deckcheck, were Brainstorm and Force of Will. And given the trend where those two seldom get played without Goyf, whereas Goyf often shows up outside of Blue, that statistic will probably change.


If Tarmogoyf had a comes into play effect of drawing 3 cards or cost no mana and sac'd to provide 3 I could see where you were going with this...

So you're saying that the only cards that are powerful enough to be unhealthy for the format and ban worthy are cards that are exactly like Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus, mistakes that existed solely because Richard Garfield didn't understand how CCGs would work when he created them?

That seems more than a little weak.


Hermit Druid is alot more than half as good as Tarmogoyf...

No one played it when it was legal. I'm not seeing the argument.

Although we already have a Sutured Ghoul deck with a 4x 1G creature. Guess what it is?

[jazzykat]

In my opinion Tarmo puppy is fun. You toss him in a deck and Wah La (sic) you are just like everybody else and you can go back to building the rest of your deck. Decks I enjoy playing almost always run him. I do not find it interesting to cripple decks I like. The only thing I am sad about is that he somewhat obsoleted Negator but how about Negator and Tarmogoyf in the same deck. That sir, sounds like my new project.

Honestly, I don't really like counter top, I just like that it wins me an insane number of games.

[Volt]

The best Creatures are still less powerful than the best Spells. Creatures with NO abilities are monumentally less powerful than the best spells.

This seems to be a common theme with the pro-goyfers. Creatures are inherently bad, spells are better than creatures, etcetera, etcetera. I think people are repeating things they may have heard a long time ago without having given any thought to whether or not they're actually true.

If you're going to use the "Creatures are bad" defense as the basis for your argument, then I need evidence. Prove to me that creatures are inherently bad. Pretend I'm your math teacher. I want to see your work.

[from Cairo]

I only compared Tarmogoyf to Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus after you dropped this gem.



Ancestral Recall is just a spell. Black Lotus is just an artifact.


Ancestral Recall is just a Spell that gains you +2 card advantage instantly, if Tarmogoyf did that it would be strikingly different from the vanilla creature that it is. Same thing if it gained you resources for no investment. It doesn't do that either. It's a guy, it swings sideways.



No one played it when it was legal. I'm not seeing the argument.

Although we already have a Sutured Ghoul deck with a 4x 1G creature. Guess what it is?

Hermit Druid dredges one's entire deck, pulling out 4 Narcomoebas, putting 4 Bridge from Below into their yard, 4 Cabal Therapy, X Dread Returns, Sutured Ghoul/Flame Kin Zealot.

Instead of wasting slots on En-Kors and Illusionists or Dredgers, you can run 8 Moxes or Lotus Petal or Unmask and Thoughtseize, etc to ensure a safe Turn 1/2 Druid.

All you have to do is make it past summoning sickness and you win. I don't know what more to offer if you don't see that ability as being strikingly different than Tarmogoyf's I really can't offer anything else.

[FoolofaTook]

Tarmogoyf is a very cheap beater that can be fairly big in the endgame. He costs too little for what he does, but in the end he is just a nasty beater with no other redeeming features. Removal removes him fairly easily assuming that you have a plan to remove opposing creatures reliably once they land, which most decks should if they want to be competitive.

Counterbalance is a very cheap enchantment that can be very controlling in the mid to late game. It has the capability to prevent itself from being removed, although this is not a guaranteed effect. There are however usually far fewer ways to remove an enchantment in the average deck than to remove a creature, so Counterbalance is many times more likely than Tarmogoyf to survive and actually exert a dominating effect on any given game once it lands. Unlike Tarmogoyf there are no risks involved in playing Counterbalance. It cannot be stolen and used against you and as a result I have never heard of somebody being beaten by their own Counterbalance after they got it into play.

The power level between the two cards is really not similar. Counterbalance plays into a locking strategy that basically effectively ends most games the turn after it has landed at the latest. Tarmogoyf on the other hand is just another stab at a win, and one that most good decks are prepared for.

Creatures are still not the most powerful effects in Legacy, even with Tarmogoyf on their side of the ledger. The most powerful effects in Legacy are still the ones that promote card advantage and control of the flow of play. If Tarmogoyf was banned tomorrow the decks that abuse it would find another decent beater and continue to abuse the things that are actually winning games for them. Tarmogoyf is not one of those, he's just facing down the other guy's Tarmogoyfs until the successful decks can gain control of the flow. His beats at that point are just more of the inevitability that we have seen from these decks since competitive Magic first discovered them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I only compared Tarmogoyf to Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus after you dropped this gem.

But apparently you didn't grasp the purpose of the exercise.


Ancestral Recall is just a Spell that gains you +2 card advantage instantly, if Tarmogoyf did that it would be strikingly different from the vanilla creature that it is. Same thing if it gained you resources for no investment. It doesn't do that either. It's a guy, it swings sideways.

If Ancestral Recall was a variable 3/4-5/6 in the first few turns of the game at no investment, it would be strikingly different from the vanilla card draw spell that it is. Heck, Ancestral Recall doesn't even win you the game; I've won games after mulliganing to five, that's like giving the opponent an Ancestral Recall, right?

Your arguments are as weak as you yourself.

No formulation of, "It's just a beater" actually addresses any of the arguments against Goyf, none of which supposes it's anything more than a beater.


Hermit Druid dredges one's entire deck, pulling out 4 Narcomoebas, putting 4 Bridge from Below into their yard, 4 Cabal Therapy, X Dread Returns, Sutured Ghoul/Flame Kin Zealot.

Instead of wasting slots on En-Kors and Illusionists or Dredgers, you can run 8 Moxes or Lotus Petal or Unmask and Thoughtseize, etc to ensure a safe Turn 1/2 Druid.

All you have to do is make it past summoning sickness and you win. I don't know what more to offer if you don't see that ability as being strikingly different than Tarmogoyf's I really can't offer anything else.

The Cephalid combo has the notable benefit of not losing to the aforementioned Mogg Fanatic. Either combo has the same problem that currently keeps Breakfast down, the hateability of a graveyard combo deck.

Tarmogoyf doesn't have drawbacks. Tarmogoyf sees far more play than Hermit Druid would in this format; Tarmogoyf, for that matter, sees more play than any spell in this format or any card excepting possibly a few lands. We have truly reached the point where Force of Will is less prevalent.

Any further arguments should keep this in mind: Deck check says that, statistically speaking, Tarmogoyf is more likely to land you a Top 8 spot, accounting for the relative recentness of it's printing, than any other spell, including Brainstorm, Force of Will, StP, and even rolling Thoughtseize and Duress into one card. If you're going to say that Tarmogoyf is less powerful than these spells, you're going to need to provide some compelling counterargument to the evidence.

Because the whole "Creatures are bad" mantra is every bit as useless and outdated as the Aggro>Control>Combo>Aggro metagame some hacks are still spewing in this community.

[Volt]

Tarmogoyf is a very cheap beater that can be fairly big in the endgame. He costs too little for what he does, but in the end he is just a nasty beater with no other redeeming features. Removal removes him fairly easily assuming that you have a plan to remove opposing creatures reliably once they land, which most decks should if they want to be competitive.

I know you didn't just roll out the "It's just a creature" defense again. Because that would be kinda pathetic.


Creatures are still not the most powerful effects in Legacy, even with Tarmogoyf on their side of the ledger.

Show me your work.


The most powerful effects in Legacy are still the ones that promote card advantage and control of the flow of play.

No, the most powerful effects in Legacy are the ones that help you win you the game. Playing a 4/5 for 1G is a pretty good way to win the game.

[mercenarybdu]

Eliminating Goyf would be a grand idea.

Look at all the design space it would open up, and how many spaces in the SB it would open up in the process.

Ever since Goyf has been around, i always had to have some sort of removal card to deal with it. As a result it would cost me additional resources here and there to account for that and all the other commons threats in the format.

If goyf were to be taken out, that would change up the whole ballgame. It forces us to think "what could be coming next?"

DISCLAIMER: This is only my view only.

[FoolofaTook]

I know you didn't just roll out the "It's just a creature" defense again. Because that would be kinda pathetic.

It's the truth. Vanilla creatures with no other abilities don't win games in Legacy. If they did then you could throw Tarmogoyf into an all green deck and win with that. After all, he's big and undercosted so he should be able to win games on his own, right?

You need to have a lot of support around Tarmogoyf before he becomes a dominant effect in the game. That's why the decks that are winning with him in the big events almost always have blue power surrounding him. And that's what's winning: the blue power. Goyf is a powerful but incidental win condition that is easily replaceable given the other options available.

If Goyf had never been printed but CounterTop had been discovered and exploited the way it has you'd have people screaming about Werebear at this point because not only was he beating them in Threshold but he was accelerating them before Threshold was reached and allowing them to exploit CounterTop even earlier than they otherwise would be able to.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't really see a problem with Tarmogoyf. His presence in the format doesn't force out any decks that aren't already bad, and he gives an extra push to slower strategies (like Faeries) that can't really end the game in a relevant time frame.

I would think that Counterbalance is much more damaging to how interesting the format is. Tarmogoyf has been basically universally adopted at this point, so it's not like Counterbalance where a few deck types monopolize the card and wreck face with it.

Also, if every deck runs Tarmogoyf, is it really a problem? They just end up running into each other a lot anyway.

I guess I just don't understand how Goyf makes the format less interesting. Legacy was pretty damn boring when Goblins was the obvious number one deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

FoolOfATook:

You're wrong.

Note that this is a statement of fact, not opinion.

We've been over this. Statistically, Tarmogoyf wins more often than any other spell in the entire format. Which is to say, it's in the winning deck. Moreover, unlike Brainstorm or StP, we may suppose that it is the card actually winning in those games.

So when you say, "Tarmogoyf doesn't win games", you're wrong. End of discussion. Tarmogoyf clearly wins a veritable shitton of games in this format. The only question is whether or not that's acceptable. If you're going to have a seat at the grownup table, you're going to have to start acknowledging facts that may not s upport the conclusion you want to draw.


I don't really see a problem with Tarmogoyf. His presence in the format doesn't force out any decks that aren't already bad, and he gives an extra push to slower strategies (like Faeries) that can't really end the game in a relevant time frame.

I would think that Counterbalance is much more damaging to how interesting the format is. Tarmogoyf has been basically universally adopted at this point, so it's not like Counterbalance where a few deck types monopolize the card and wreck face with it.

Also, if every deck runs Tarmogoyf, is it really a problem? They just end up running into each other a lot anyway.

I guess I just don't understand how Goyf makes the format less interesting. Legacy was pretty damn boring when Goblins was the obvious number one deck.

The argument is that every deck running Tarmogoyf is a problem, because it makes the format less diverse in card selection, if not deck selection. It has a minimal impact on the number of decks that are played, but a very large impact on the number of creatures, and to a lesser extent the number of removal spells that are played.

If you don't object to this, you don't object to this and there's nothing to say. But if we accept as a premise that a banning can be for reasons of diversity or interest, not simply because the format has been warped to a single deck (a view that Wizards certainly seems to hold, if not the Magic community at large), then there's a case for banning Tarmogoyf.

If Goblins then became heavily dominant, there might then be a case for banning Goblins. I don't like knee jerk, reactionary stances. Whether for or against the status quo. Any time a card is very powerful and very prominent, it's worth asking whether it should be banned. The manabase of Legacy, for instance, is pretty solidly set at duals, fetches, and Wasteland, with some scattering of Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Rishadan Port, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, City of Brass, Gemstone Mine and the two nerf-Moxen. This is a fairly narrow list of lands, when many other lands are legal but see minimal play, but I think that it gives Legacy it's flavor and has suitable diversity while enabling diverse strategies.

Brainstorm, Force of Will, StP, Thoughtseize (formerly Duress), Lightning Bolt (not so much anymore), etc., are prevalent staples, but they all serve narrow roles, and none of them really edge out many cards, except ones that do the same thing, but worse. So I don't support banning those.

If Goblins were dominant, would I support banning Lackey, Vial, or something else? It would depend on how dominant it was. If Tarmogoyf was a 2G, or a *-1/*, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. But the reality of what Tarmogoyf is and the effect it has on the format leads me to believe that it's effect is negative. It cuts out a whole swath of the game, form a deck design standpoint.

I find myself, constantly, building decks on MWS, and after a half hour of tinkering, I realize I've cut half the creatures I wanted to run in the first fucking place, and I'm running Goyf and Goyf support. You really need very compelling reasons not to run Goyf in your deck, and that alone might make such a deck noncompetitive.

There's this kneejerk tendency to categorize any suggestion that a card would be better on the banned list as "whining" because you don't like the fact that something is good. While this is often accurate, I hope we can agree that sometimes cards legitimately deserve banning, and the line isn't exactly hard and fast. Compared to the list of the most broken cards ever printed? Tarmogoyf isn't that bad. I can easily name twenty non-ante cards that deserve to stay on the banned list more than Goyf deserves to join them. That doesn't mean his existence is healthy for the format.

Goyf exists in the borderlands. He's a successful parasite. Weak enough that he can exist without superficially damaging the format, but as a persistently and subtly unhealthy influence.

[Volt]

It's the truth. Vanilla creatures with no other abilities don't win games in Legacy.

So, it would be okay with you if Wizards went ahead and printed a 9/9 for :g: in the next set, as long as it doesn't have any other abilities? You wouldn't have any problem with that, right? Because "vanilla creatures" don't win games in Legacy?

If you can answer "Yes" to that with a straight face, then I'll concede the point. Go ahead.

[FoolofaTook]

So, it would be okay with you if Wizards went ahead and printed a 9/9 for :g: in the next set, as long as it doesn't have any other abilities? You wouldn't have any problem with that, right? Because "vanilla creatures" don't win games in Legacy?

If you can answer "Yes" to that with a straight face, then I'll concede the point. Go ahead.

That's a false proposition. When they print the 9/9 for G I'll evaluate it against the meta that exists at that point and tell you whether or not it wins games or not.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's a false proposition. When they print the 9/9 for G I'll evaluate it against the meta that exists at that point and tell you whether or not it wins games or not.

http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Legacy

Best get crackin', son.

[Aggro_zombies]

The argument is that every deck running Tarmogoyf is a problem, because it makes the format less diverse in card selection, if not deck selection. It has a minimal impact on the number of decks that are played, but a very large impact on the number of creatures, and to a lesser extent the number of removal spells that are played.

If you don't object to this, you don't object to this and there's nothing to say. But if we accept as a premise that a banning can be for reasons of diversity or interest, not simply because the format has been warped to a single deck (a view that Wizards certainly seems to hold, if not the Magic community at large), then there's a case for banning Tarmogoyf.

If Goblins then became heavily dominant, there might then be a case for banning Goblins. I don't like knee jerk, reactionary stances. Whether for or against the status quo. Any time a card is very powerful and very prominent, it's worth asking whether it should be banned. The manabase of Legacy, for instance, is pretty solidly set at duals, fetches, and Wasteland, with some scattering of Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Rishadan Port, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, City of Brass, Gemstone Mine and the two nerf-Moxen. This is a fairly narrow list of lands, when many other lands are legal but see minimal play, but I think that it gives Legacy it's flavor and has suitable diversity while enabling diverse strategies.

Brainstorm, Force of Will, StP, Thoughtseize (formerly Duress), Lightning Bolt (not so much anymore), etc., are prevalent staples, but they all serve narrow roles, and none of them really edge out many cards, except ones that do the same thing, but worse. So I don't support banning those.

If Goblins were dominant, would I support banning Lackey, Vial, or something else? It would depend on how dominant it was. If Tarmogoyf was a 2G, or a *-1/*, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. But the reality of what Tarmogoyf is and the effect it has on the format leads me to believe that it's effect is negative. It cuts out a whole swath of the game, form a deck design standpoint.

I find myself, constantly, building decks on MWS, and after a half hour of tinkering, I realize I've cut half the creatures I wanted to run in the first fucking place, and I'm running Goyf and Goyf support. You really need very compelling reasons not to run Goyf in your deck, and that alone might make such a deck noncompetitive.

There's this kneejerk tendency to categorize any suggestion that a card would be better on the banned list as "whining" because you don't like the fact that something is good. While this is often accurate, I hope we can agree that sometimes cards legitimately deserve banning, and the line isn't exactly hard and fast. Compared to the list of the most broken cards ever printed? Tarmogoyf isn't that bad. I can easily name twenty non-ante cards that deserve to stay on the banned list more than Goyf deserves to join them. That doesn't mean his existence is healthy for the format.

Goyf exists in the borderlands. He's a successful parasite. Weak enough that he can exist without superficially damaging the format, but as a persistently and subtly unhealthy influence.
I don't know, I guess my opinion is biased by the Affinity Fiasco in type II, where you either played Affinity or you played a deck built specifically to beat it, and there were no other choices. Obviously this is an extreme example, but given your objective, I would argue that there are other cards in the format that are at least as problematic for stifling diversity, namely Counterbalance.

EDIT: I should add that Goyf isn't really that format warping (see: Affinity in type II). Banhammering him wouldn't cause a plethora of diversity to appear, and may actively hurt some decks (Faeries, Goyf Sligh/Zoo variants).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, I think Counter-Top is a wonderful tool for promoting diversity in the metagame that I very much hope they don't ban. Counter-Top rewards you for varying the curve. I want them to print more cards in the CB, Chalice, Deed, and even Smother vein; they're perfectly suited to Legacy.

I think CB-Thresh would be a lot more bearable with Werebear and Mongoose again, honestly.

[Volt]

That's a false proposition. When they print the 9/9 for G I'll evaluate it against the meta that exists at that point and tell you whether or not it wins games or not.

So, you're not sure if a 9/9 for :g: would be bad? I think I detect the aroma of intellectual dishonesty, but maybe it's just because my cat farted or something. Do we just need to get more extreme? What if Wizards printed a 99/99 for :0:? Do you feel safe taking a stab at that scenario, or would you need to wait and evaluate the meta that exists at that point and see whether it wins games or not? I'd understand if you're unable to answer. It's so hard to know for sure.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Volt: Would it be an artifact creature, or just a colorless one? In fairness, it's hard to answer the question until you know if your Viridian Shamans can come in.

[FoolofaTook]

FoolOfATook:

You're wrong.

Note that this is a statement of fact, not opinion.

We've been over this. Statistically, Tarmogoyf wins more often than any other spell in the entire format. Which is to say, it's in the winning deck. Moreover, unlike Brainstorm or StP, we may suppose that it is the card actually winning in those games.

Let me amend then. If Tarmogoyf is winning games as a vanilla beater it is the first card in the history of Magic in anything but a tightly controlled and very restricted card set to hold that distinction.

I find that proposition to be very unlikely. Creatures are weak. They always have been and they always will be. Sometimes in a swarm of creature-based effects they can make up for their inherent weakness and even become dominant, but as a class they are weak. Sometimes they have additional effects that are fairly powerful that distinguish them and make them dangerous, although even the additional effects tend not to be strong enough to make them a killer except in unusual circumstances. Magus of the Moon can be a killer or he can be a 2/2 weenie depending on what the opponent is playing.

Why are creatures weak as a class? Well, for one thing the vast majority of them give a person a turn's grace to try to figure out how to deal with them, unlike Sorceries, Enchantments and Artifacts that can pop into play and kill right away. For another the vast majority are easily removed by a wide assortment of playable effects. For a third even the best creatures kill incrementally, rarely managing to kill the opponent even after the turn's grace and usually requiring additional hits to accomplish the goal.

A vanilla creature is never going to be something to be truly feared. It is never going to be a dominant card unless it is that mythical 9/9 for G that somebody keeps bringing up and that will never be printed unless some steep drawback is put in play alongside it.

[FoolofaTook]

So, you're not sure if a 9/9 for :g: would be bad? I think I detect the aroma of intellectual dishonesty, but maybe it's just because my cat farted or something. Do we just need to get more extreme? What if Wizards printed a 99/99 for :0:? Do you feel safe taking a stab at that scenario, or would you need to wait and evaluate the meta that exists at that point and see whether it wins games or not? I'd understand if you're unable to answer. It's so hard to know for sure.

I don't expect to see the card printed unless the meta is so strong that it wouldn't be overpowered or unless a significant drawback is included in the mix. There's no intellectual dishonesty in taking a match to a strawman and setting it on fire.

[Volt]

Volt: Would it be an artifact creature, or just a colorless one? In fairness, it's hard to answer the question until you know if your Viridian Shamans can come in.

Good point. Let's say it's a colorless, non-artifact creature. I don't want this to be too easy.

[Volt]

I don't expect to see the card printed unless the meta is so strong that it wouldn't be overpowered. There's no intellectual dishonesty in taking a match to a strawman and setting it on fire.

Haven't we been through this in that other thread? It's intellectually dishonest to call any argument you can't refute a "straw man." You obviously don't understand what "straw man" means.

I took your supposition that it's impossible for "vanilla creatures" to win games and proposed scenarios with increasingly absurd vanilla creatures to see if you would stick by your stance. Obviously, you are unwilling/unable to defend your position.


A vanilla creature is never going to be something to be truly feared. It is never going to be a dominant card unless it is that mythical 9/9 for G that somebody keeps bringing up and that will never be printed unless some steep drawback is put in play alongside it.

So, the criterion for determining whether or not a vanilla creature is too powerful is "Did Wizards print it?" If they printed it, it must be okay. If it was too powerful, they wouldn't have printed it? Is that your position? If I have paraphrased you incorrectly, then by all means, please correct me. I want to understand what you're saying.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let me amend then. If Tarmogoyf is winning games as a vanilla beater... I find that proposition to be very unlikely. Creatures are weak.

..."if"?

Quoth the poet, you may justly boast yourself inaccessible to the light. I've already explained to you that by Top 8's, Tarmogoyf is the most successful spell in the metagame. Probably the most successful card, period. Your beliefs are at odds with reality. I may point out that the vast majority of those decks which still don't play Tarmogoyf also win by creatures; very few decks in this format win outside of the combat zone.

At this point, I can say with a clean conscience that your ignorance is not on my hands.

[scrow213]

..."if"?

Quoth the poet, you may justly boast yourself inaccessible to the light. I've already explained to you that by Top 8's, Tarmogoyf is the most successful spell in the metagame. Probably the most successful card, period. Your beliefs are at odds with reality. I may point out that the vast majority of those decks which still don't play Tarmogoyf also win by creatures; very few decks in this format win outside of the combat zone.

At this point, I can say with a clean conscience that your ignorance is not on my hands.

Thank Christ! This is the most retarded argument ever. Tarmogoyf is the most winning card in the format, by far. The numbers support this. In what way is that good for diversity? I could understand if the most common card was a non-game-winning card, but really?

I don't see how anyone thinks that it is cool that Tarmogoyf has forced it's way into nearly every deck in the format. That seems totally normal to you nay-sayers? Really?

[Aggro_zombies]

Actually, I think Counter-Top is a wonderful tool for promoting diversity in the metagame that I very much hope they don't ban. Counter-Top rewards you for varying the curve. I want them to print more cards in the CB, Chalice, Deed, and even Smother vein; they're perfectly suited to Legacy.

I think CB-Thresh would be a lot more bearable with Werebear and Mongoose again, honestly.
One could make the opposite argument for decks using Counterbalance. CB works best when your cards are all concentrated in a certain (low) range.

I will agree that Counterbalance, however annoying it may be to play against (and boring to play with), is good for the format.

Irregardless of that, though, you'd have to agree that your argument for Counterbalance makes the card out to be format-warping. Any card that requires you to build your deck around it, even if you don't run it, is by definition warping. Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf strategies just aren't nearly as bad as, say, Affinity, Academy, or Trix at the height of their powers.

One could say that lands stifle diversity because every deck has to play them and they can take around a third of the slots of your deck, reducing the number of spells you could potentially run. A ridiculous argument, sure, and not entirely parallel to the ones you've presented, but I make it to prove the point that not every widely-played card is distorting. Taking that logic to its natural conclusion, Force of Will, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Dark Confidant, and lands that make blue or green mana would qualify as format warping. That's obviously not true because they (arguably) don't create the "play me or play to beat me" bullshit that was rampant in some of the more ridiculous Standard environments, or even the 4 Trinisphere days in Vintage. There are still plenty of available strategies even with Tarmogoyf, and I have a hard time seeing how there'd be more if he disappeared.

Tarmogoyf was a mistake as printed, but he isn't particularly bad for the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One could say a lot of absurd things, AZ. However, the question in the poll is simple; does Tarmogoyf make the format less interesting, less fun to play? From a deck design perspective, I think it certainly does. It doesn't add anything new to the game; it is just a beater. It just obsoletes creatures that aren't as good at that as Goyf, which as it so happens is pretty much all of them. It simplifies deckbuilding to where, increasingly, you're playing 56 cards and Tarmogoyf, whatever your primary strategy.

And the game would be better off without it.

[Aggro_zombies]

One could say a lot of absurd things, AZ. However, the question in the poll is simple; does Tarmogoyf make the format less interesting, less fun to play? From a deck design perspective, I think it certainly does. It doesn't add anything new to the game; it is just a beater. It just obsoletes creatures that aren't as good at that as Goyf, which as it so happens is pretty much all of them. It simplifies deckbuilding to where, increasingly, you're playing 56 cards and Tarmogoyf, whatever your primary strategy.

And the game would be better off without it.
I cut Tarmogoyf from my Aggro Loam lists and haven't felt the need to add it in again. It isn't an auto-include in everything, and I haven't found him to be particularly damaging to deck design. If it's the best tool for the job, I see no reason not to use it. Besides, if you want autopilot deck building, I'm pretty sure any of the bajillion blue-based counter-control decks beat you there. They only differ in the cosmetics.

Politely agree to disagree?

EDIT:

I disagree for all the reasons I have previously stated, but also... you said "irregardless". Language fail.
What are you talking about? (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless)

[scrow213]

I cut Tarmogoyf from my Aggro Loam lists and haven't felt the need to add it in again. It isn't an auto-include in everything, and I haven't found him to be particularly damaging to deck design. If it's the best tool for the job, I see no reason not to use it. Besides, if you want autopilot deck building, I'm pretty sure any of the bajillion blue-based counter-control decks beat you there. They only differ in the cosmetics.

Politely agree to disagree?

EDIT:

What are you talking about? (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless)

I am talking about the fact that you used a word that contains two negative elements. Sure, it exists, but that doesn't mean it should be used. What part of that don't you not misunderstand?

Edit: I would like to quote Merriam Webster, you know, a reputable dictionary:


Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

[Aggro_zombies]

I am talking about the fact that you used a word that contains two negative elements. Sure, it exists, but that doesn't mean it should be used. What part of that don't you not misunderstand?
Nonstandard words are still words, even if they contain double negatives. You obviously know how to use it, so have some fun with the language once in a while. Jesus Christ, how can you still be sane when you browse the internet but nitpick about grammar?

EDIT: Oh no, a reputable dictionary! I do not offer my non-concession.

EDIT 2: In before P_R notices this thread and locks it for having a discussion about English grammar.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I completely support the use of the word irregardless. In fact, I take credit for starting the trend, despite and especially because of evidence to the contrary.

Anyway. Obviously with a borderline case you have to make a value judgment; a counter suite may start with Force and Brainstorm, and StP and Lightning Bolt and Thoughtseize may be damned near autoincludes in those colors. But Tarmogoyf is more prevalent still, and in a way that I consider more damaging; not in terms of dominating a narrow utility aspect of the game, but in dominating the main function of the game; killing someone with a creature. That's the most basic and still the most reliable kill condition out there, and Tarmogoyf dominates it in the majority of cases.

In fact, I think I was the one who said you could cut Tarmogoyf in LftL, which I still think is quite true, due to both the superior size/synergy of the other two (if not also splashing for Knight of the Relequist), as well as addressing the Counterbalance weakness, but, it's the fact that the same creature can occupy the key role in Sui, Blue-Control, Blue-Disruption, Sligh, Survival, and even fucking Tribal strategies, and still be a prime contender for a deck that otherwise has creatures that are specifically engineered for this narrow archetype such as LftL... it's simply too much, far too much. He's everywhere and in everything.

It's a missed opportunity to me. It's good that Goblins is no longer dominant, but I don't think we'd go back to those days if Goyf was gone; I think Goblins was largely running on momentum at that point, and more cards have come out since then that encourage other decks to thrive. I think of all the different forms these decks could be taking, though, and to see it all boil down to different support packages with Tarmogoyf always at the spearhead...

[citanul]

I voted 'Yes' because I do think that the removal of Tarmogoyf would make the deckbuilding and the format funner.

Volt: 'Reductio ad absurdum' does not mean making somethign absurd. In this way of proving things you assume the opposite and prove that's never possible. Your comparing a 9/9 against Tarmogoyf is not the same. I'll give a very basic example:

x² + x = x(x + 1) . Let's say we can't prove this normally so we assume the opposite. This means we have to assume they are different. Since it's either higher ro lower you have to split it up in two calculations.

x² + x < x(x+1) x² +x > x(x+1)

If any of these are correct than your original statement is false. if you calculate this you will see that they are indeed equal. That is 'Reductio ad absurdum'.

Also, I think that giving the example of a 9/9 for G is not needed. It's rather stupid even as there is no card and hopefully never will be. You could just try to say that Tarmogoyf provides a very fast clock which needs to be answered in a few turns before you lose the game.

[FoolofaTook]

I cut Tarmogoyf from my Aggro Loam lists and haven't felt the need to add it in again. It isn't an auto-include in everything, and I haven't found him to be particularly damaging to deck design. If it's the best tool for the job, I see no reason not to use it. Besides, if you want autopilot deck building, I'm pretty sure any of the bajillion blue-based counter-control decks beat you there. They only differ in the cosmetics.

Politely agree to disagree?

EDIT:

What are you talking about? (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless)

You really should be using Tarmogoyf though unless your list just does not have room for beaters beyond Terravore and Countryside Crusher. It's similar power level to both of those with less hassle and conditionality to make it strong. If your list just doesn't have room, which would be understandable in some cases, then it's appropriate not to play goyf.

People are confusing Tarmogoyf's ubiquity with its power level. The best decks in Legacy have a tendency to include 8-12 creatures and it would be silly not to make those be the best creatures available. Those decks actually WIN off of something else most of the time but creatures represent the best re-usable source of damage in the meta and are best at preventing the opponent's re-usable damage, so they are auto-includes in the vast majority of decks.

Over long periods of time people have often made them istake of assuming that the creatures in most decks, particularly in control decks, were the dominant and powerful part of the scheme and thus the things that "made" the deck. In fact nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Weissman deck was not "made" by Serra Angel, it just used her as it's best finisher after the game had already been decided by other means.

Classic Threshold wasn't "made" by Werebear and Nimble Mongoose, it just used them as the most efficient beaters it could find after the main aim of the deck - to cut out situational chaff as much as possible and insure consistency of draws - had been fulfilled.

Modern Threshold doesn't win off of Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose either, it just filters up a set of superior cards - of which Tarmogoyf is certainly one, and kills the opponent based on not having to play inferior cards to flesh out the full 60. The CounterTop soft lock is a wonderful thing to fall back on but Threshold is winning based on not having to play cards not named Force of Will, Brainstorm, Daze, Ponder, Spell Snare, Stifle, Wasteland, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose. There are a few other cards sprinkled in there depending on the theme of the deck and a few removed but basically Threshold wins because ALL of it's cards are superior. To argue that Tarmogoyf is the reason the deck wins is a fool's errand. That doesn't mean that Tarmogofy is not present in Threshold 100% of the time and that it does not make it's strong contribution, however another beater with a less strong but still powerful contribution to make would slide easily into that slot if goyf was removed from the meta and thus no longer a threat to the deck either.

Creatures with no other abilities are not irreplaceable in decks if they should happen to go missing due to DCI action. This is why the DCI has rarely and only mistakenly in my view ever banned that type of resource. Kird Ape? Really? What were they thinking?

[Peter_Rotten]

Thank Christ! This is the most retarded argument ever. Tarmogoyf is the most winning card in the format, by far. The numbers support this. In what way is that good for diversity? I could understand if the most common card was a non-game-winning card, but really?

I'll return to a point that I've raised before: Once Goyf is gone, there will be ANOTHER card that will be the most winning card in the format. Before Goyf, it was Goblins - specifically Lackey and Ringleader. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, "Goyf is played a lot in winning decks! That means it's bad for the format," is a weak argument. Look at these points and see if you disagree:


We don't have decks built around him.
We have only a few decks that might lose viability without him (EvaGreen and maybe TA).
We play NOT a single card that is ONLY good against him.
We have "lost" only a few cards because of him (Werebear and maybe Bolt)
Bullets rock your faceI also belive that each color should have a card that flat out says, "ROAR! I'm the epitome of what my color does and you can't get any better."


Black has Thoughtseize for discard.
Blue has Brainstorm for draw and FoW for counter.
Green has Goyf for the beating.
White has StP for the best creature removal. (But wasn't white supposed to do something else?)
Red has Bolt for the best burn. Now before you say that Goyf really ruined Bolt/Burn, keep in mind that Burn and Sligh got no respect way before Goyf.

[Kuma]

Banning Tarmogoyf only because it's the "most successful spell in the metagame" would set a bad precedent. There will always be a most successful spell in any metagame, and there will always be a most prevalent card. Following this line of thinking, once we ban goyf we'll have to ban Lackey, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Lion's Eye Diamond, or StP.

The question you have to ask yourself is, "Is the most prevalent spell in the format most prevalent because other decks can't deal with it?" Or maybe, "Is there no better choice for decks in the format than the most prevalent spell?" There are tons of cost effective ways to deal with goyf, and over half of the viable decks in the format don't run him.

Peter Rotten had a great post earlier where he showed that most of the creatures goyf supposedly pushed out of the format were either marginally played or not pushed out at all. I haven't seen anyone refute his claims, and until someone does, or provides strong examples, I won't believe that goyf is stifling creature diversity.

And no, deckbuilding does not start with four goyf and 56 other cards. A simple look through our forums disproves this.


It's a missed opportunity to me. It's good that Goblins is no longer dominant, but I don't think we'd go back to those days if Goyf was gone; I think Goblins was largely running on momentum at that point, and more cards have come out since then that encourage other decks to thrive. I think of all the different forms these decks could be taking, though, and to see it all boil down to different support packages with Tarmogoyf always at the spearhead...

What do you think Legacy would look like with Tarmogoyf gone? My best guess is Goblins start running over Threshold again and becomes the strongest deck in the format, Merfolk takes a huge hit, Landstill takes a huge hit, combo becomes more prevalent, and crappy metagame board control decks like Rifter and Eternal Garden come back.

[rleader]

I haven't seen anyone refute his claims,

Probably because not everyone was impressed with his postings and you felt free to likewise ignore anyone who did address him specifically because their claims weren't up to your factual standards of biblical ultimate proof. I don't think one person has been convinced of anything in this thread.

OTOH, I think it will work out great for people arguing for the status quo as if Wizards ever read it, they'd just assume everyone who plays legacy is an idiot and leave the format alone just to not get shit on their fingers.

[rockout]

OTOH, I think it will work out great for people arguing for the status quo as if Wizards ever read it, they'd just assume everyone who plays legacy is an idiot and leave the format alone just to not get shit on their fingers.

I lol'd.

I'm surprised. I figured the vote for this poll would be split 50/50 which it was when I went to bed last night. Now, it's shot into the Yes column.

Anyone know when is the next B/R update?

[Volt]

Volt: 'Reductio ad absurdum' does not mean making somethign absurd. In this way of proving things you assume the opposite and prove that's never possible. Your comparing a 9/9 against Tarmogoyf is not the same. I'll give a very basic example:

You're half right. The definition you're using really applies more to mathematical discussions. Reductio ad absurdum can also mean proving something is false by following it to an absurd conclusion, which is how it's typically applied in non-mathematical debates. Look it up again, and you'll see I'm correct. In this case, what I did is take the stated premise that "Tarmogoyf cannot be too powerful because it is just a vanilla creature, and vanilla creatures do not win games" and followed it to an absurd conclusion by proposing increasingly large vanilla creatures. This cannot be called a "straw man," because I stayed completely within the constraints of the stated premise.

Now, if one wants to say "But, Wizards would never print such a stupid creature!" in response to my proposed large vanilla creatures, then one is making a completely different argument based on the presumed infallibility of Wizards, which opens up another whole can of worms.

If, on the other hand, one were to say "Yes, I agree it is possible for a vanilla creature to be too powerful, but I do not think Tarmogoyf crosses that line," then that would be a perfectly fine thing to say, and I would not be taking that person to task for making absolute statements that can easily be contradicted.

[TheRock]

What a lot of people seem to forget is that the major combo decks around during the time of Goblins were Solidarity, Iggy Pop, Belcher, and Enchantress. There are more combo decks now, Belcher is much more consistent, and Ad Nauseum just COMPLETELY LAUGHS at Goblins.

Merfolk and Team America are metagame decks too - let's not forget that. When the metagame changes, they either become much worse choices or they simply become great choices. Some of the decks created back then are the same (Rifter). There shouldn't be any double standards.

There will always be a "really damn good creature", but Tarmogoyf is a vanilla beater and Lackey is an accelerator. However, the problem is that one is easily supported by our fetches and duals and the other is not. Besides, what's wrong with using green for threshold creatures, Krosan Grips, Hunting Grounds, Alurens, Walls, Vores, Knights, and LftLs?

[4eak]

Do you think Tarmogoyf's absence would make the format more enjoyable?

I think if you remove any goodstuff.card from the format, especially very common ones (like StP, Standstill, FoW, Brainstorm, LED, Goyf, Goose, Bolt, Fetchlands, Dual Lands, Stifle, CB, Top, Wasteland), then you are going to have big changes in the metagame.

In the short term, we would have a much harder time predicting metagames. Making Legacy even more unpredictable would make it even more enjoyable to me (even Flash was an interesting thought-experiment to me though).

When the dust settled, I'm not sure.

Admittedly, I'm tired of playing the same damn vanilla beater. I know that even if he disappeared/was banned, something or some set of things would take his place. However, I think those replacements would at least be more fair and more diverse. Goyf's power-level is out of synch with most of the cards played in the format. I'd like to see the best beaters either a.) at least require a deck to be built around them in order to be viable, or b.) be in closer power-level proximity to other cards that are played.

Goyf arguably slows down the format though. He requires stuff in graveyards, so certain strategies that would never have seen play because they are just too slow become pretty good when Goyf exists. While this in particular encourages deck diversity and unpredictable metagames, I'm not convinced a few positive aspects of Goyf are worth the monotony of playing against metagames built around him.




peace,
4eak

[Jeet]

We don't have decks built around him.

This is a problem: you don't have to build around goyf, he fits into almost all decks.

[quicksilver]

We play NOT a single card that is ONLY good against him.

Is there a single card that is only good against him?

[Fons]

Bullets rock your face

True but more seriously


Anyone know when is the next B/R update?

I voted yes just because the original question is "Would the format be more interesting without Tarmogoyf?" If Tarmogoyf wasn't around more win-cons would be played making for a more diverse metagame.

Do I think Tarmogoyf should be banned? no. Even though he does break the power curve he hasn't made the metagame degenerate like affinity did to standard.

[citanul]

Are you referring to this VOlt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Because it just states that the outcome is absurd, not that you have to make the point itself absurd. As stated int hat post, it makes use of the rule that a statement can only be false or true. I never heard of the use as you do but I might be wrong of course. If you have another, maybe more reliable source, I'll accept it :).

It does not mean that I don't agree. Tarmogoyf P/T is to high for it's CC. If it was GG it would've been better. I also voted yes because the removal of Tarmogoyf would open up the format a bit. I do not want it banned though and I doubt that it will.

Edit: I should read more than the first few lines next time. It sais that there's also a form of making the point absurd. (That or my comprehension of the English language is terrible). I apologise for doubting your point. :)

[Peter_Rotten]

This is a problem: you don't have to build around goyf, he fits into almost all decks.

But WHY is that a problem? Like so many others have pointed out, other great cards are easy to splash - Brainstorm, StP, Bolt, Thoughtseize, Top, etc.

[quicksilver]

But WHY is that a problem? Like so many others have pointed out, other great cards are easy to splash - Brainstorm, StP, Bolt, Thoughtseize, Top, etc.

I think by definition, top is impossible to splash.

[4eak]

I think by definition, top is impossible to splash.


If I take your meaning correctly, then the counterexample would be:

Manaless Ichorid!




peace,
4eak

[rleader]

(even Flash was an interesting thought-experiment to me though).

What's funny is that flash decks often sideboarded in Negator. So even if flash came back, it would probably include goyf instead.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Just a note: Goblins was being pushed around before Tarmogoyf was printed. This was due to the fact that storm combo was just starting to come into its own, and was gaining in popularity. Tarmogoyf just improved the aggro-control arsenal against Goblins, and these combined forces helped to displace the deck from its erstwhile unassailable position at the top of the format.






Peter Rotten had a great post earlier where he showed that most of the creatures goyf supposedly pushed out of the format were either marginally played or not pushed out at all. I haven't seen anyone refute his claims, and until someone does, or provides strong examples, I won't believe that goyf is stifling creature diversity.



I went through this thread looking for it, but to no avail. I'd appreciate it if you could post/PM me a copy/paste version of it. I've used the same argument against banning Tarmogoyf for years (I don't recall if I ever made it here on The Source, but SCG and MOTL definitely got it), and I've yet to see an adequate answer.

If you think that Legacy would be better off without Tarmogoyf, then I think that the onus is on you to point to cards and strategies that Tarmogoyf is keeping out of the picture. Preferably on its own: if the format itself is hostile to a given deck/strategy/card, then the blame can hardly be laid at Tarmogoyf's feet alone. After that, the onus shifts to the rest of us to point to cards/strategies that have become more viable since Tarmogoyf's printing. From there, we can compare the two sides, and see which side has more weight to it.

Beyond that, making baseless predictions about what the format MIGHT look like is a waste of time.

[Bardo]

Anyone know when is the next B/R update?

Friday (3/20).

[Peter_Rotten]

I went through this thread looking for it, but to no avail. I'd appreciate it if you could post/PM me a copy/paste version of it.


Here ya go. It was actually in the other thread about CounterBalance.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=328704&postcount=213

[Jeet]

But WHY is that a problem? Like so many others have pointed out, other great cards are easy to splash - Brainstorm, StP, Bolt, Thoughtseize, Top, etc.

Those aren't win conditions, while goyf is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But WHY is that a problem? Like so many others have pointed out, other great cards are easy to splash - Brainstorm, StP, Bolt, Thoughtseize, Top, etc.

But those cards dominate single, narrow strategies to winning, and thus they're only played where that strategy works. Goyf is played in damn near 50% of the strategies in the format, from all colors of disruption, to aggro, to control, to combo-sideboard, to even fucking tribal.

The problem isn't that Goyf is the best card in a niche, as Brainstorm and Force and StP, it's that it's the best card in a vast, defining swath of the game; a simple beater that makes any other choice look simply and completely ridiculous.


I think that you are wrong about a lot of the assumptions you have made here. I'll go through your list (and sorry to use a cute short-cut, but I'll get real tired of typing "before Goyf" so I'm typing "b4Goyf"):
...
Hierarch - barely played and most often in "bad" decks like Rock.

That's not true. I played it in my board, and many Survival decks played it. It was a midrange or control creature, but it definitely fulfilled a purpose because 4/4 used to be a big body.


Negator - barely played b4Goyf and only in Suicide decks.

Red Death was a very popular and strong death before Goyf, and Negator was the superstar. Again, because 5/5 used to be a big body.


Mongrel - saw barely any play. I once saw him in an AggroLoam list.

And U/G Madness. Granted he wasn't all over the place, but he had a niche role in the format that he could uniquely fill. You couldn't just stick the same utilibeats creature in there, because no one was so efficient that it made Mongrel's ability as a 2 mana creature to go 5/5 irrelevant. Before Goyf, I mean.


Dryad - Was already flimsy and hardly playable b4Goyf

True.


Kird Ape - I'm unsure about this one. He was already crappy against Goose and Bear.

He was part of a zoo package, relying on cards like Rancor and Giant Growth to get through. He's still sort of there, but the only real answer to Goyf on the ground is another Goyf. Sometimes Ape, Rancor, and Lightning Bolt.


Psychatog - this card sucked b4Goyf. The "I can't believe Tog sucks now" argument holds as much water as the "I can't belive Morphling sucks now" argument. The format left Tog in the dust ages ago b4Goyf.

Fair.


Exalted Angel - Once again, he only saw minimal play b4Goyf and the decks that do play him have replaced him with more efficient win-cons like DoJ and PLaneswalkers
Lavamancer - was this guy really ever played in Fish? Also, in some ways, he becomes a little better because of messing with Goyf's yard.

This is untrue. Angel Stompy was a popular and viable deck when a 4/5 was viable and noteworthy, when Silver Knight wasn't strictly obsoleted in terms of hosing red by a creature that beats for five.


Troll Ascetic - what decks was he played in b4Goyf?

Zoo lists. Untargetable meant most removal proof, and 3 power was enough to take down most creatures in the format, especially with a Jitte or Rancor.


Withered Wretch - A SB card meant to hate on GraveYards. There are more efficeint ways to hate the yard than this guy.

But he used to fuck up Thresh's plans.


Serra Avenger - a very narrow card that saw minial play in tier 2 decks.

I don't know about that. It was only legal for a few months before Flash-Hulk and then Goyf upended the format. Two mana 3/3s with abilities used to be good in this format.


Mother of Runes - How did Goyf make this card suck? It saw little play b4Goyf and, now, it's main purpose - protecting a creature has not changed.

Because white has no reason to run white creatures anymore, and thus the decks that ran Mom have little reason to exist.


Lightning Bolt - Sadly, I'll agree. But the popularity of Mongoose helped weaken this card. Goyf sure was the knockout punch here, though.
Fire//Ice - Fire simply did not do enough b4Goyf. It could kill a single Goblin, often be too slow to deal with Lackey, couldn't target Mongoose, would do jack-shit against DragonStompy Critters, Kird Ape, WildN, Ichorid, Storm Combo, or even - gasp - Ohpidian.

We could add every red removal spell to this list.


Nantuko Monastery - very narrow card that had a place... where again?

Landslide, 4c Landstill, in some builds of Thresh, believe it or not. I know this sounds crazy, but it used to be that a 4/4 with First Strike tended to win combat.


Any non-green pure Aggrodeck but Goblins - Those decks were terrible before too.

Off the top of my head, Angel Stompy, White Weenie, Red Death, and RG Survival all saw play at this time, in addition to dozens of other more niche decks.


]So we have three cards listed - Bear, FledgeDragon, and Bolt - that have likely seen less play because of Goyf.

Troll Ascetic, Exalted Angel, Serra Avenger, Kird Ape, Wild Mongrel, Loxodon Hierarch, and I would add to that Ghastly Demise, Burning-Tree Shaman, Flametongue Kavu, Razor Golem, Rotting Giant, Scroll Rack, Flame Rift, Chain Lightning, Watchwolf, and essentially most of red. Zoo, for instance, although not popular on the Source at the time, was an increasingly successful archetype, without a given best list. This has pretty much petered out since, while they can also play Goyf, the hyper efficient cards designed just for Zoo- Watchwolf, Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl- are completely ineffecient at punching through a single deployed Goyf.


Actually, I'm going to rescind that comment. Two cards - Bear and FDragon - have seen less play. I bet Bolt has seen MORE play now because Goyf made Sligh a reasonable deck choice by giving it the the big cheap beater it so desperately needed.

And removing it's ability to remove a creature. Yeah, no.


Also look at the list of critters and compare them to the most commonly played creatures today: Dark Confidant, TombStalker, PDreads, Goblins, Merfolks, Trinket Mage, and fattie guys in AggroLoam. Haven't all of these critters helped destroy those weaker cards in your list?

Dark Confidant, definitely not. Tombstalker would probably go in Red Death and replace Rotting Giant, but wouldn't fit in many other decks. Jrednot and Terravore are niche decks that devote themselves to making their guys fat. Goblins and Merfolk only obsolete other creatures when you get a lot of them in play. Generally then; no. It'd mean that the combat zone saw an actual competition of strategies.


And, really! What DTBs are seeing play now that did NOT see play b4Goyf? Vice Versa? What decks did Goyf kill? I can't think of one. Hell, I'll say that Goyf made MORE decks viable. Eva Green and GoyfSligh being two that spring to mind. What decks would REALLY suffer if Goyf was banned? Would Thresh no longer be a good deck? Would AggroLoam totally punt every match then?

Except that Goyf killed Red Death and Zoo, not to mention Angel Stompy and RG Survival, so again, no.

And again, this is more about the variety within decks than the variety of decks itself. Goyf, as discussed, doesn't eliminate as many decks per se, since so many of them can play their own decks. It eliminates much variety within those decks, however.


Honestly, the most important thing that Goyf killed was the need to make "Ban Lackey and Ringleader" threads on the Source. For that, I'll be eternally grateful (pun intended).

I'm starting to think that Goyf is the glue that holds Legacy together. (Did somebody alreday say this, or do I get credit?)

If, and this seems weak supposition to me, but if Goblins were overweening and stagnant at the top of the metagame for a long period of time, in other words, if Goblins made the format less interesting, then yes, there would be another argument for banning it. As in every case, the merits and disadvantages of this would have to be discussed in the context of it's own case.

Right now, however, Goyf is the guilty party in making the format less interesting and more stagnant.

[Nightmare]

The problem isn't that Goyf is the best card in a niche, as Brainstorm and Force and StP, it's that it's the best card in a vast, defining swath of the game; a simple beater that makes any other choice look simply and completely ridiculous.

Forgive me for being obvious, but I feel like I have to ask:

So what?

[Kuma]

Probably because not everyone was impressed with his postings and you felt free to likewise ignore anyone who did address him specifically because their claims weren't up to your factual standards of biblical ultimate proof. I don't think one person has been convinced of anything in this thread.

I've read the entirety of both threads, and no one so much as flippantly dismissed his arguments. If you'd like to point out a counter-argument I missed, I'd appreciate it.

I'm not asking for "biblical ultimate proof". I'm looking for arguments showing that any specific creature has been kept out of Legacy by Tarmogoyf. With the exception of Werebear, I haven't seen any (And doesn't Natural Order Thresh run Werebear?).

Obviously if goyf weren't in the format people would have to run something to replace it. But I'm betting you'd see a lot more Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and other already prevalent creatures instead of these non-existant creatures goyf has supposedly been keeping out of the format.

Goyf is causing Werebear and possibly Lightning Bolt to see less play. Thoughtseize is causing Duress and possibly Cabal Therapy and Hymn to Tourach to see less play. Like goyf, Thoughtseize is easily splashable and is the best card at what it does. Anyone building a deck that wants to attack their opponent's hand starts with four Thoughtseize. Decks that run Thoughtseize usually do well in large events like the Grand Prix.

Ban Thoughtseize!


What a lot of people seem to forget is that the major combo decks around during the time of Goblins were Solidarity, Iggy Pop, Belcher, and Enchantress. There are more combo decks now, Belcher is much more consistent, and Ad Nauseum just COMPLETELY LAUGHS at Goblins.

This is the other possibility I see if Tarmogoyf leaves the format --- Storm Combo taking over with Threshold slowed down and held at bay by Goblins.

That's even less fun than the already not fun Goblins dominated Legacy.

Banning Tarmogoyf would be like taking one step forward and three steps back. Was 2006 Legacy more fun than 2009 Legacy? I don't think so. There's far more diversity now than there was then.

[Aleksandr]

I lack "I am not sure" possibility in the poll. Beacuse - I really am not sure, if the format be more interesting without Tarmogoyf.

I like that creature. I like his power. I like what he does and I like that :eek: he brings. (Not that this is exactly good.)
OTOH he is too much powerful, everyone plays him, everyone splashes green for him, etc. (Not that this is exactly bad.)

So... IDK. Maybe..:





"Dear Wizards!
Please ban Tarmogoyf and print this card:



____________________________
Fixed Goyf [center] [center] :g::g:
____________________________
"wow, such an amazing picture" I
"wow, such an amazing picture" I
"wow, such an amazing picture" I
____________________________
Creature - Lhurgoyf.........Rare.. I
____________________________
Fixed Goyf's power and thoughness
are equal to the number of ........I
non-stupid card types among ... I
cards in all graveyards. ............. I
......................................................I
(The non-stupid card types are
artifact,creature, enchantment,
instant, land and sorcery.) ....... I
____________________________
........................................... */* . I
____________________________




Thx a lot. Sincerely yours, Legacy."

[Jeet]

Like goyf, Thoughtseize is easily splashable and is the best card at what it does. Anyone building a deck that wants to attack their opponent's hand starts with four Thoughtseize.

Again, that's a specific strategy by playing discard. Goyf needs no building around and no strategy, he fits in most decks. Not (almost) every deck in the format splashes black for Thoughtseize.

Besides, goyf is much more played than Thoughtseize because it is also a win condition and has a greater power level in Legacy.


Anyone building a deck that wants to attack their opponent's hand starts with four Thoughtseize.

It's almost to the point that a deck that wants to win starts with four Tarmogoyf.

[Volt]

I'm looking for arguments showing that any specific creature has been kept out of Legacy by Tarmogoyf.

We've been around and around on this in the other thread, and you know that. Long lists of creatures have been posted, and then responded to with corner-cases to prove that some of them are technically still played somewhere by someone, and the rest are dismissed with a flippant "Well, they sucked anyway."

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Forgive me for being obvious, but I feel like I have to ask:

So what?

1) It limits deck design. Deck design right now is immensely constrained by the need to play Goyf or a strategy that presents an obstacle to such a common, easy, and efficient threat. Most decks play Goyf, and, to be honest, most of those that don't should. It makes the format less dynamic and less interesting, and ultimately less fun. Right now the array of support cards is big enough that it's harder to notice the effect, but the combat zone is all about Goyf on Goyf.

2) From a marketing standpoint, this is also terrible for Wizards. Creatures were the least stable portion of the cardpool, with the creatures played often depending on the colors already in your deck and adjusting to your strategy. Tarmogoyf obsoletes most of these considerations and simply claims the lead spot; this in turn means other creatures don't get played. Since creatures were the most common reason to pick up new cards in Legacy, this creates a much lower incentive to look into new sets.

[Kuma]

Again, that's a specific strategy by playing discard. Goyf needs no building around and no strategy, he fits in most decks. Not (almost) every deck in the format splashes black for Thoughtseize.

Besides, goyf is much more played than Thoughtseize because it is also a win condition and has a greater power level in Legacy.



It's almost to the point that a deck that wants to win starts with four Tarmogoyf.

So "killing with big creatures" isn't a specific enough strategy for you?

And for the love of God, most decks in the format do not splash green for Tarmogoyf. Read the Decks to Beat and Established Decks forums.

Before a million people post about what an ignoramus I am for wanting Thoughtseize banned, I don't want Thoughtseize removed from the format. I was trying to show that you can apply most of the arguments for banning Tarmogoyf to the best card in any area, be it Brainstorm, Force of Will, Thoughtseize, Swords to Plowshares, etc.

The fact that goyf is a win condition doesn't make it any more banworthy. Most banned cards aren't win conditons, and it takes more than win conditions to make a good deck.

And even if you ban goyf, there will still be a "greatest power level" card in Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've read the entirety of both threads, and no one so much as flippantly dismissed his arguments. If you'd like to point out a counter-argument I missed, I'd appreciate it.

Scroll up.


I'm not asking for "biblical ultimate proof". I'm looking for arguments showing that any specific creature has been kept out of Legacy by Tarmogoyf. With the exception of Werebear, I haven't seen any (And doesn't Natural Order Thresh run Werebear?).

Scroll up.


Obviously if goyf weren't in the format people would have to run something to replace it. But I'm betting you'd see a lot more Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and other already prevalent creatures instead of these non-existant creatures goyf has supposedly been keeping out of the format.

Hahaha, no. Those creatures see play in large part because the dominant philosophy is "big creatures", aka, Goyfs, and they're capable of becoming larger. But they're much too high maintenance to overwhelm the field the way that Goyf does.


Goyf is causing Werebear and possibly Lightning Bolt to see less play. Thoughtseize is causing Duress and possibly Cabal Therapy and Hymn to Tourach to see less play. Like goyf, Thoughtseize is easily splashable and is the best card at what it does. Anyone building a deck that wants to attack their opponent's hand starts with four Thoughtseize. Decks that run Thoughtseize usually do well in large events like the Grand Prix.

Discard is a narrow utility mechanic in black. Creatures are the main focus of the entire game in every color. Plus red's removal. I'm sure you can see where one category is larger than the other.


This is the other possibility I see if Tarmogoyf leaves the format --- Storm Combo taking over with Threshold slowed down and held at bay by Goblins.

Sweet Talking Llama, will people stop this?

Look, any, "Well I'm afraid something else will make the format suck if Goyf leaves" arguments are insipid and idiotic. If Goyf makes the format less interesting, and it should go because of that, then it stands to reason that if something else accidentally dominates the metagame in an unfun way it could go to. Or other cards could go off the list- you could ban LED and unban Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind Twist and Black Vise, to name one example. IF there's actually any problem with that format.

For God's sake, fear of a temporary unpleasantness is no reason to live in eternal squalor.

[Aleksandr]

And even if you ban goyf, there will still be a "greatest power level" card in Legacy.

Problem is that Goyf is far beyond the borders of what the "normal greatest power level" card can be.
with this, we can unban Oath of Druids. Or Recall...

Guyfs, no one made a single comment on my Fixed Goyf yet! :tongue: :tongue:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Problem is that Goyf is far beyond the borders of what the "normal greatest power level" card can be.
with this, we can unban Oath of Druids. Or Recall...

Guyfs, no one made a single comment on my Fixed Goyf yet! :tongue: :tongue:

I was going to, I got distracted. I support it. I'm not against the idea of Goyf in particular; like I said, if it was *-1/*, instead of */*+1, I don't think we'd ever have these conversations, although it would still be a very good card. What I oppose is the fact that Goyf is becoming so prevalent that it's choking out most other creature strategies. It's simply becoming too difficult to field a team of creatures that can compete with Goyf for efficiency.

[Jeet]

And for the love of God, most decks in the format do not splash green for Tarmogoyf. Read the Decks to Beat and Established Decks forums.

DTB:

Merfolk: sometimes splashes for goyf: highest finish at the GP
Landstill: most of the time it splashes for goyf
Threshold: goyf
Survival: goyf
Aggro Loam: goyf

The only decks that don't splash for goyf are ANT, Ichorid and Goblins (which tried splashing for goyf).

[Nightmare]

Jack - for someone who opens the thread with "Let's keep it scientific," you're throwing words like "Unfun" and "less interesting" around quite a bit.

I find legacy to be quite interesting, somewhat because of Goyf, somewhat despite it. My opinion on the matter (and all this discussion boils down to nothing more than that) is no less relevant or correct than yours on the issue.

Goyf makes cards I enjoy playing, such as Engineered Explosives, Counterbalance, Vedalken Shackles, etc. much better, and makes cards I dislike, such as Goblin Lackey, Phyrexian Negator, and Nantuko Shade worse. That's fine with me. I'm sorry your opinion differs, but that's just like, your opinion, man.

[Aggro_zombies]

Guyfs, no one made a single comment on my Fixed Goyf yet! :tongue: :tongue:
I've actually had Goyf get bigger because of a dead planeswalker.

Tribal is pretty stupid, though, unless you're playing against Bitterblossom.

[Peter_Rotten]

I shall now own the quote function"



But WHY is that a problem? Like so many others have pointed out, other great cards are easy to splash - Brainstorm, StP, Bolt, Thoughtseize, Top, etc.

But those cards dominate single, narrow strategies to winning, and thus they're only played where that strategy works. Goyf is played in damn near 50% of the strategies in the format, from all colors of disruption, to aggro, to control, to combo-sideboard, to even fucking tribal.

The problem isn't that Goyf is the best card in a niche, as Brainstorm and Force and StP, it's that it's the best card in a vast, defining swath of the game; a simple beater that makes any other choice look simply and completely ridiculous.

If that is so, are there any decks that run ONLY Goyf as their win-con?

And Goyf does fill a niche - beating! And so what if Werebear is now the Serum Visions of beating? And what is wrong with looking at a deck and saying, "why are you running Serum Visions and Opt when you can be running Brainstorm and Ponder?"




I think that you are wrong about a lot of the assumptions you have made here. I'll go through your list (and sorry to use a cute short-cut, but I'll get real tired of typing "before Goyf" so I'm typing "b4Goyf"):
...
Hierarch - barely played and most often in "bad" decks like Rock.

That's not true. I played it in my board, and many Survival decks played it. It was a midrange or control creature, but it definitely fulfilled a purpose because 4/4 used to be a big body.

I think my "barely played and most often in bad decks" still stands. He was mainly played for his life gaining and - who knows - maybe Kitchen Finks killed him. Ban the Finks!





Negator - barely played b4Goyf and only in Suicide decks.

Red Death was a very popular and strong death before Goyf, and Negator was the superstar. Again, because 5/5 used to be a big body.

Red Death was VERY popular? I disagree. 5/5 is still a big body. And Negator is still too risky to play in any unknown meta - but NOT because of Goyf.





Mongrel - saw barely any play. I once saw him in an AggroLoam list.

And U/G Madness. Granted he wasn't all over the place, but he had a niche role in the format that he could uniquely fill. You couldn't just stick the same utilibeats creature in there, because no one was so efficient that it made Mongrel's ability as a 2 mana creature to go 5/5 irrelevant. Before Goyf, I mean.

I ignored Madness because of its obvious suck-a-tude.





Dryad - Was already flimsy and hardly playable b4Goyf

True.
Yeah! I'm right. It feels good for a change.





Kird Ape - I'm unsure about this one. He was already crappy against Goose and Bear.

He was part of a zoo package, relying on cards like Rancor and Giant Growth to get through. He's still sort of there, but the only real answer to Goyf on the ground is another Goyf. Sometimes Ape, Rancor, and Lightning Bolt.



Psychatog - this card sucked b4Goyf. The "I can't believe Tog sucks now" argument holds as much water as the "I can't belive Morphling sucks now" argument. The format left Tog in the dust ages ago b4Goyf. Fair. Of course it is - I said it.


There's a ton more of your wrong-headedness and faulty memory I need to correct, but, alas, I must go pick-up my offspring from school. At least they did something productive today. I was planning to end with on a note of some sort about burn that goes a little like this:

Goose and Bear already made burn bad. One, burn can never kill and the other usually took 2 spells to kill. (Granted, Goyf can easily have Bear's beefy ass earlier than Bear usually had it.). And CounterBalance countinues to make burn bad.

I'll be back later. Wait. Wait with bells on.

[Kuma]

Scroll up.

You posted that stuff while I was reading the thread/making my post. But thank you for taking the time to do what no one else would.


Hahaha, no. Those creatures see play in large part because the dominant philosophy is "big creatures", aka, Goyfs, and they're capable of becoming larger. But they're much too high maintenance to overwhelm the field the way that Goyf does.

Weenie strategies are prevalent in the format and serve a purpose even with Tarmogoyf seeing play. Goblins is a DTW and Merfolk is a DTB.

The Dreadstill players I've talked to think that Dreadstill's strongest play against Zoo and other weenie is to drop Dreadnought ASAP and race.

And goyf isn't keeping non-goyf creature strategies out of the format. Look at Goblins, Merfolk, TEES, and even Zoo. Yes, Zoo runs goyf, but the strategy still top eights a lot. Check the historic DTB.


Discard is a narrow utility mechanic in black. Creatures are the main focus of the entire game in every color. Plus red's removal. I'm sure you can see where one category is larger than the other.

Of course. I already explained what I meant with that argument.


Sweet Talking Llama, will people stop this?

Look, any, "Well I'm afraid something else will make the format suck if Goyf leaves" arguments are insipid and idiotic. If Goyf makes the format less interesting, and it should go because of that, then it stands to reason that if something else accidentally dominates the metagame in an unfun way it could go to. Or other cards could go off the list- you could ban LED and unban Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind Twist and Black Vise, to name one example. IF there's actually any problem with that format.

For God's sake, fear of a temporary unpleasantness is no reason to live in eternal squalor.

I don't think goyf makes the format less interesting. I think it's a vital component to the most fun and diverse Legacy format since I started caring about Legacy circa 2005. I've stuck my neck out and predicted what a goyf-less Legacy would look like. I've asked you to do the same. You're right that we can't know for sure, but it's not irrelevant to the ban goyf or not question.


DTB:

Merfolk: sometimes splashes for goyf: highest finish at the GP

Splashed for goyf once in the Grand Prix. The posters in the Merfolk thread are almost unanimous in their dislike for goyf in the deck. The Grand Prix is not the end all be all of what belongs in decks.


Landstill: most of the time it splashes for goyf

This is simply untrue. Some U/g/b/w lists run him. None of the U/w/(x) lists run him. Goyf just doesn't fit Landstill's strategy.


Threshold: goyf

Already ran green before goyf.


Survival: goyf

Already ran green before goyf.


Aggro Loam: goyf

Terrageddon, Aggro Loam's precursor, ran green before goyf.


The only decks that don't splash for goyf are ANT, Ichorid and Goblins (which tried splashing for goyf).

Most decks running goyf already ran green before it was printed. Your argument isn't true.

And yes, while Goblins briefly splashed goyf, it was found to be terrible. So I don't see how that helps your argument.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jack - for someone who opens the thread with "Let's keep it scientific," you're throwing words like "Unfun" and "less interesting" around quite a bit.

I find legacy to be quite interesting, somewhat because of Goyf, somewhat despite it. My opinion on the matter (and all this discussion boils down to nothing more than that) is no less relevant or correct than yours on the issue.

You sound like a girl. Do I need to throw, "In my opinion..." in front of everything, Josephina? My argument consists of three assumptions that more or less follow from each other;

1) Tarmogoyf is widespread; possibly the most played card in Legacy, manabase and Brainstorm including.

2) Tarmogoyf's presence makes other creatures unviable.

3) The lack of creature diversity makes the format less interesting, and therefore less fun.

You can disagree with any of those. In fact, you can even agree with them and then say, "Yes, but it shouldn't be banned", which is pretty much what it sounds like you're doing.

Regardless, providing arguments isn't being a big meanie and picking on your opinions. Or, I guess it is, but only if your opinions suck and are wrong.



If that is so, are there any decks that run ONLY Goyf as their win-con?

That depends. Do you count Trinket Mage and Dark Confidant as creatures?


And Goyf does fill a niche - beating! And so what if Werebear is now the Serum Visions of beating? And what is wrong with looking at a deck and saying, "why are you running Serum Visions and Opt when you can be running Brainstorm and Ponder?"

What's wrong is that creatures are the primary strategic component of most decks in the history of the game. You're obsoleting a ridiculously large chunk of the game when every threat is worse than Tarmogoyf in every deck.


I think my "barely played and most often in bad decks" still stands. He was mainly played for his life gaining and - who knows - maybe Kitchen Finks killed him. Ban the Finks!

I like that you can function as an adult in this discussion, and not a simpering retard.

It's possible that Finks would be more played. But Finks wouldn't be played in lieu of Kird Ape or Phyrexian Negator.


Red Death was VERY popular? I disagree. 5/5 is still a big body. And Negator is still too risky to play in any unknown meta - but NOT because of Goyf.

Yes. Negator was very popular in Red Death which was very popular, and then Goyf was printed and it fell off the map. You think it's coincidence? Goyf is still wearing Negator's bloody sports jacket, this isn't exactly a difficult trail of evidence to follow.


I ignored Madness because of its obvious suck-a-tude.

It won a Legacy Championship. Of course, that was when Arrogant Wurm was considered big.


Goose and Bear already made burn bad.

No, they didn't, because that was one deck. It's pretty hard to spot the creatures that burn kills anymore.

[Nightmare]

You sound like a girl. Do I need to throw, "In my opinion..." in front of everything, Josephina?When in doubt, insult everyone who disagrees with you. I'm not wrong, I'm just a girl. Nice one.

I don't have a problem with your opinion, or you stating it. I have a problem when you state your opinion under the guise of facts, which is what you tend to do.


My argument consists of three assumptions that more or less follow from each other;

1) Tarmogoyf is widespread; possibly the most played card in Legacy, manabase and Brainstorm including.

2) Tarmogoyf's presence makes other creatures unviable.

3) The lack of creature diversity makes the format less interesting, and therefore less fun.

You can disagree with any of those. In fact, you can even agree with them and then say, "Yes, but it shouldn't be banned", which is pretty much what it sounds like you're doing.I'd agree with 1 and 2, but three is pretty much unquantifiable, although you seem to think that makes it factual. I believe that Goyf is a fun card, both to play with and against. This has been true since its printing, and the saturation of the card in the format hasn't swayed me on the issue. Neither have your ad hominems.

In your example, my 3 would be:

3) It doesn't matter, because the other creatures sucked anyway.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a fucking value judgment, Adam. At the end of the day, if you think the format with Goyf everywhere is fun, I can't say shit against it. I don't.

Do you need a hug?

[Nightmare]

It's a fucking value judgment, Adam. At the end of the day, if you think the format with Goyf everywhere is fun, I can't say shit against it. I don't.

Do you need a hug?
Nah, hearing you admit defeat (or at least concession) is all the hug I could ask for.

One love!

[Peter_Rotten]

My argument consists of three assumptions that more or less follow from each other;

1) Tarmogoyf is widespread; possibly the most played card in Legacy, manabase and Brainstorm including.

2) Tarmogoyf's presence makes other creatures unviable.

3) The lack of creature diversity makes the format less interesting, and therefore less fun.

1) I agree and my opinion is a bit ambivilent. So is my spelling.

2) True, but so what? Also, the same could have been and probably was said about a bunch of other creatures like Lackey, FtK, Tog, and even Troll Ascetic. Good cards made bad cards suck. Or - to be fairer - new good cards can make old good cards suck.

3) And here is the big problem. #1 and 2 are facts or at least can somehow be well supported. Once again, I'll return to my Ban-Lackey argument but for a different reason. To some people, there is always something to complain about. There is always something ruining their fun. Before Goyf, it seemed that Goblins was creating a lack of creature diversity that made the format less interesting, and therefore less fun. Why is this relevant? Because the old Ban-Lackey argument casts doubt on the worth of the Ban-Goyf argument. Also, it is worth noting that the "not-so-fun" environment of the ubiquitous Goyf, was able to foster the largest American GP.

It is tough to predict what creatures would be "playable" again without Goyf around. Have these creative, flavorful, more fun creatures been killed off by Goyf or a refinement of the format? Is it something else? Personally, I think that most of those creatures collecting dust that you are lamenting would have been tossed by the way-side with or without Goyf running rampant. (Werebear, as always, is the exception).


That depends. Do you count Trinket Mage and Dark Confidant as creatures?

Yes, I do. They're little guys, but surely creatures. Goyf won't be drawing you cards or finding you EE. And before Goyf, their ass was still considered little.


What's wrong is that creatures are the primary strategic component of most decks in the history of the game.

But so are drawing cards and messing with your opponent's resources. Sometimes you mess with their cards, their lands, their critters, but you almost always mess with their life total. Creatures are the most obvious - especially to the newer player. It is probably safe to say that we fondly remember the days of Craw Wurm pwnage, NOT the days of Sylvan Library pwnage. Ugh! I got to spend life to draw cards?


You're obsoleting a ridiculously large chunk of the game when every threat is worse than Tarmogoyf in every deck.

ARGHH - the hyperbole - it burns.


I like that you can function as an adult in this discussion, and not a simpering retard.

Wait a minute. Were you being sarcastic or not? My retardedness prevents my understanding sophisticated levels of sarcasm. Sometimes I mistake the sarcastic and ironic for their superficial, surface meaning. Wait... wait... I think you ARE being sarcastic. Well-then and hey-now! I take offense to "simpering." And, hey-there, 7th grader. Are you going to call me gay next? Well, as long as I'm not a simpering homosexual.


It's possible that Finks would be more played. But Finks wouldn't be played in lieu of Kird Ape or Phyrexian Negator.

And Goyf wouldn't played in a SB life-gaining slot, would it?


Yes. Negator was very popular in Red Death which was very popular, and then Goyf was printed and it fell off the map. You think it's coincidence? Goyf is still wearing Negator's bloody sports jacket, this isn't exactly a difficult trail of evidence to follow.

Fashion statements aside, the best thing about RedDeath was its name. The deck was another Legacy flash-in-the-pan. I bet that it would have died off without Goyf.


No, they didn't, because that was one deck. It's pretty hard to spot the creatures that burn kills anymore.

Isn't that partly my point? Burn sorta sucks now-a-days in a land of Goyfs, Stalkers, and DreadNuts. And, BTW, burn sucked against Heirarch and Finks too.

[Volt]

To me, having goyf in the format is kind of like if everyone drove the same make, model, and color car. And if I went to the dealership to buy a car, sure, there might be some other interesting looking cars in the back lot, but they cost more, have less horsepower, and don't come with a warranty.

Goyf is boring and stupid and leads to lazy deck-building. Yes, it's an opinion. We're all opining here. That should be obvious.

[Peter_Rotten]

To me, having goyf in the format is kind of like if everyone drove the same make, model, and color car. And if I went to the dealership to buy a car, sure, there might be some other interesting looking cars in the back lot, but they cost more, have less horsepower, and don't come with a warranty.

But if you can afford to drive the best car possible, why wouldn't you? Of course you can be the odd-ball hippie chick who hand paints her mini-bus with flowers and hairy-hippie things, but at the end of the day, you get better performance from the GoyfMoblile. And if you're looking for a little creativity to set you apart from teh crowd, you can have Goyf-variants. Obviously you can't get your Goyfs in Ford blue, but you can get them foiled, foreign, or artist altered.

[Volt]

But if you can afford to drive the best car possible, why wouldn't you? Of course you can be the odd-ball hippie chick who hand paints her mini-bus with flowers and hairy-hippie things, but at the end of the day, you get better performance from the GoyfMoblile. And if you're looking for a little creativity to set you apart from teh crowd, you can have Goyf-variants. Obviously you can't get your Goyfs in Ford blue, but you can get them foiled, foreign, or artist altered.

Because the goyfmobile has no character, no soul. And because Goyf, Inc. is a shady, monolithic corporation that exploits third world slave labor to make their cars better and cheaper than everyone else's. Or something.

I have 4 goyfs. I play them. And I hate them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nah, hearing you admit defeat (or at least concession) is all the hug I could ask for.

One love!

If it makes you feel any better, your subjective opinion is both wrong and stupid.

[Peter_Rotten]

Because the goyfmobile has no character, no soul. And because Goyf, Inc. is a shady, monolithic corporation that exploits third world slave labor to make their cars better and cheaper than everyone else's. Or something.

Spoken like a true Socialist.

[morgan_coke]

Spoken like a true Socialist.

Does that count as a Godwin's Law corollary?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I suppose you have to decide on whether or not variety adds inherent value. I think it does.

I think Legacy, at it's best, looks like Constructed Cube. One of the great things about Cube is the variety of awesome blast from the past cards crashing into each other. Maybe Legacy would be more interesting and varied if a card like Brainstorm, Force of Will, Aether Vial or Lion's Eye Diamond was banned. Hell, maybe it would be a better format if deck size was 80 cards. I don't know. I'm absolutely certain, however, that it would be a better format without Goyf.

[Peter_Rotten]

I suppose you have to decide on whether or not variety adds inherent value. I think it does.

I'll agree to this also. But I don't agree that Goyf limits the variety in Legacy in a significant manner.

[C.P.]

I personally think the only people that don't think Goyf should be banned are the people who spent 40 bucks apiece on them when they got big. I know that is a very broad statement, but i really don't care.

I spent 10CAD and 2 flashes on my 8 goyfs. I don;t think goyf should be banned. I stated this couple times now, abut creatures are getting better as of late and The problem will be solved in couple years by itself.

Compare Rogue elephant vs. Wild Nactal, or Negator vs. Tombstalker.
Or think about people calling for banhammer on the Tog.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The power curve of the game has not been constantly rising, though. Or, rather, while the power curve of decks rises as the array of options they have to choose from and the synegies they can create rises, the power of individual cards hasn't risen drastically except for in the case of creatures; even then, all older creatures haven't been obsoleted. Kird Ape, Savannah Lions, Birds of Paradise are still quite powerful; primarily it's the curve of higher cc creatures that was adjusted beginning around the time of Onslaught, and a little before. However, because the power of higher cc beaters was adjusted as the developers realized how the realities of the game would impact their playability, this doesn't mean that the creature power curve can rise indefinitely without the game falling apart. There are basic realities that define the power the game can allow; 7 cards, 20 life being the primary examples. One land a turn. Tarmogoyf already breaks the curve; printing creatures that obsoleted Tarmogoyf is difficult to imagine, and would almost certainly destroy the competitive value of the game.

Power creep isn't an answer. Power creep destroys games, collectible games especially.

[FoolofaTook]

Because the goyfmobile has no character, no soul. And because Goyf, Inc. is a shady, monolithic corporation that exploits third world slave labor to make their cars better and cheaper than everyone else's. Or something.

I have 4 goyfs. I play them. And I hate them.

Be careful here, you're likely to swing one of your primary allies in the argument the other way with this line of reasoning. Sounds suspiciously liberal to me.

Edit: oops, PR beat me to this one. I have to remember to read the entire thread before I respond from here on in.

[Solpugid]

Does anyone attend regular (relatively large) Legacy tournaments that wouldn't mind attempting a little test? As I'm sure you've guessed, this test would be to ban goyf for a few weeks to observe the trends in the metagame (assuming the majority of the players agreed to this). I have no idea how much valuable information we could get out of this, but it would at least be a fun (in my opinion) way to stir things up.

[Volt]

Be careful here, you're likely to swing one of your primary allies in the argument the other way with this line of reasoning. Sounds suspiciously liberal to me.

Yeah, the irony. Well, if Jack wants to kick me off his coattails, he's welcome to. :cool:

[FoolofaTook]

The power curve of the game has not been constantly rising, though. Or, rather, while the power curve of decks rises as the array of options they have to choose from and the synegies they can create rises, the power of individual cards hasn't risen drastically except for in the case of creatures; even then, all older creatures haven't been obsoleted. Kird Ape, Savannah Lions, Birds of Paradise are still quite powerful; primarily it's the curve of higher cc creatures that was adjusted beginning around the time of Onslaught, and a little before. However, because the power of higher cc beaters was adjusted as the developers realized how the realities of the game would impact their playability, this doesn't mean that the creature power curve can rise indefinitely without the game falling apart. There are basic realities that define the power the game can allow; 7 cards, 20 life being the primary examples. One land a turn. Tarmogoyf already breaks the curve; printing creatures that obsoleted Tarmogoyf is difficult to imagine, and would almost certainly destroy the competitive value of the game.

Power creep isn't an answer. Power creep destroys games, collectible games especially.

I would argue that the power curve of Legacy has been continually rising in all aspects based largely on the fact that nothing simple, powerful and blue has been banned from the format over the last two years, since the removal of Flash's errata and the subsequent banning there.

Everybody points at Tarmogoyf as ubiquitous at the top of the format with his great blustering head and loud braggadocio and nobody looks at the little blue man behind the curtain pulling all the strings that cause him to come out on top over and over again at the big events.

There's a point at which you need to ask: is it better to remove the cards that an ancient and powerful shell grafts into it's plan to kill with or is it better to start to dismantle that shell? Blue has absolutely dominated eternal formats since the beginning of Magic The Gathering. It's currently dominating both Vintage and Legacy and was only recently dethroned from dominance in Extended. Remove Tarmogoyf and blue will just find something else to put in the game plan to kill with. It always has and it always will as long as it has both control of the flow of play and access to significant card advantage and selection.

I don't think Tarmogoyf would be such a big deal in a meta in which combo was not largely suppressed by blue control. I don't think it would be such a big deal in a meta in which tribal synergies were not largely suppressed by blue control. The dominance of Tarmogoyf in Legacy is largely dependent on the blue control structures that otherwise dominate the format. Begin to pick those apart and Tarmogyf's value will diminish also in the process, not to the point where it won't be one of the best beaters in the meta because it always will be that, but to the point where people begin to ask what the value of a big beater really is in a meta in which that's not always the end game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Uh. What?

ETA:

FoaT:

Goyf is more dominant than the color blue. Goyf is played in black- and red-based decks that don't have a use for Brainstorm or Force, but are happy to have by far the best beater ever printed.

[FoolofaTook]

Uh. What?

ETA:

FoaT:

Goyf is more dominant than the color blue. Goyf is played in black- and red-based decks that don't have a use for Brainstorm or Force, but are happy to have by far the best beater ever printed.

If those decks were winning the gold standard competitions I'd agree with you. They're not. So I fall back on the "it's blue dominating the Legacy meta, not Goyf" argument which I think has more merit.

If Goyf Sligh had won in Chicago we'd be looking at a different argument. If two Goyf Sligh variants had faced off against each other in the finals it'd be very different.

Blue wins at this point. Goyf is incidental, mainly because everybody else has it too and they can't beat blue with goyfs.

It wasn't the goyfness of Nassif's deck that won for him it was the blueness.

[Arsenal]

If those decks were winning the gold standard competitions I'd agree with you. They're not. So I fall back on the "it's blue dominating the Legacy meta, not Goyf" argument which I think has more merit.

If Goyf Sligh had won in Chicago we'd be looking at a different argument. If two Goyf Sligh variants had faced off against each other in the finals it'd be very different.

Blue wins at this point. Goyf is incidental, mainly because everybody else has it too and they can't beat blue with goyfs.

It wasn't the goyfness of Nassif's deck that won for him it was the blueness.

To be fair, two black-based Suicide variants top8ed... using Goyf in the lists. The only lists not running Goyf were combo (no creatures, no matter how good, are ever run in pure combo) and Dragon Stompy (whose entire function goes against the idea of using fetchs + duals to run Goyf).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It was indeed the "goyfness" that "won or him", hence it being the primary kill condition. Ditto to the black- and red- based decks in that top 8.

Actually, you know what? I've already explained way too many times that Goyf is top 8'ing more than Brainstorm or Force of Will. Your perpetual desire to make up facts and pretend that the format looks like something other than what it looks like is vaguely endearing in a Forest Gump sort of way, but it's not relevant to the discussion.

Please acquit yourself like you're sitting at the grownups table, Fool.

[FoolofaTook]

It was indeed the "goyfness" that "won or him", hence it being the primary kill condition. Ditto to the black- and red- based decks in that top 8.

Actually, you know what? I've already explained way too many times that Goyf is top 8'ing more than Brainstorm or Force of Will. Your perpetual desire to make up facts and pretend that the format looks like something other than what it looks like is vaguely endearing in a Forest Gump sort of way, but it's not relevant to the discussion.

Please acquit yourself like you're sitting at the grownups table, Fool.

When was the last time a non-blue deck won anything that had "championship" appended to the title of the competition? The level at which you cannot see the forest for the tree named goyf is really amazing.

[heroicraptor]

Blue should not have such easy access to such a powerful finisher. If blue had to slow-roll until turn 5+ and win with Morphling, it would not be the exceptional powerhouse it is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Took, let me break this down for you. If blue is the best color in Legacy? That's fine. I don't care. Some color has to be the best. Blue's obviously had more than it's fair share in this spotlight, but there have been times in Legacy's past when green or red was the best color. Granted, I don't think black or white ever have been, but that may be more endemic problems with those colors.

Regardless. Blue is played in blue decks. As long as other decks are still winning, and statistics show that they are, then that's fine. That the only Legacy GP we've had in four years was won by a blue deck is fine.

The problem is what all these different decks are looking like, which is 56 cards and Goyf. The problem is that even the threats to the blue-based Goyf decks have to run Goyf. The creature is literally stifling the competition for creature slots by being all things to all people. There is no tension at all in deck design over what creature to run unless you're playing Tribal, or for some strange deck like the Chalice-Stompy lists that have trouble splashing and even then often should be running Goyf.

[Seriously]

Because the goyfmobile has no character, no soul. And because Goyf, Inc. is a shady, monolithic corporation that exploits third world slave labor to make their cars better and cheaper than everyone else's.

listen timmy, not every last one of us is entirely obsessed with having 15 pieces of flair in our decks. some people just care about winning and if its on the back of a slave laboring goyf, so be it.




Power creep isn't an answer. Power creep destroys games, collectible games especially.

um, and which CCGs would those be exactly ? magics been power creeping off and on for 16 years now and its still here. personally, I think that that horrible game mechanics, complex rules, lack of product support and basing games off of passing fads destroys CCGs.

Damn! Start using the shift key or start receiving warnings.

-PR

[SpikeyMikey]

Are people undertsanding the poll? Or do they really think Tarmogoyf makes the format interesting?

Tarmogoyf totally kicks red in the balls, he kicks every other creature in the balls leaving only a handful left worth playing, and he makes CB/Top a lot stronger.

Recently, I was thinking about a deck and dismissed it because I thought a 3/4 for 3 was bad. Do you know how ridiculous this would be in older Legacy? It would be played. Now, I am not on a nostalgia high, but the fact that good creatures are shafted in every color because of him is bad.

Green is fine without Goyf so using that as an argument is stupid.


I absolutely do think goyf makes the format more interesting. The problem is that people think that goyf makes aggro control better than aggro. The problem with that is that any effective aggro creature is going to fit just as comfortably in aggro control. Before it was Tarmogoyf, it was Nimble Mongoose and Werebear. Troll Ascetic could've seen play in thresh as easily as it did in Zoo, the difference is that it wasn't good enough for thresh.

Getting rid of Tarmogoyf will not bring aggro back. It probably wouldn't even bring Goblins back (although Goblins is still competitive) and I'm not sure that a format that's heavy in goblins would make me happy.

What I do know is that this format is slower than it's been in quite some time, and the trifecta of CB, SDT and goyf are a major factor in that. I think it allows for a range of decks that otherwise would be a hair too slow for the format, like Landstill or anything running SotF.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I actually amn't sure at all what impact Goyf has on the balance of archetypes. I know that aggro-control decks with Balance-Top or a Stifle/Wasteland/Daze suite are obviously popular right now, but the rise of Hymn- and Burn- supported Goyf strategies seems emminent.

My argument isn't based on archetypes. I think that Goyf makes the format less interesting by destroying the diversity of creature combat and board positions, not deck types.

Mosquitos, for instance, infest many different ecosystems, but I don't think they improve any of them, and they often wipe out less grating forms of life.

[Volt]

listen timmy, not every last one of us is entirely obsessed with having 15 pieces of flair in our decks. some people just care about winning and if its on the back of a slave laboring goyf, so be it.

My name is Chris. My handle is Volt. Or you can call me sir, since I'm old.

If you "just care about winning," then you shouldn't care about whether or not Tarmogoyf is in the format. I assume you're so darn good, you could win with werebears, right? I mean, I win a lot of the time, sometimes even with Tarmogoyfs, but I can still opine that perhaps Tarmogoyf isn't the best thing for the format. I'm not sure what the desire to win has to do with it. Good players are good, regardless of the card pool.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

From a pure winning perspective, Goyf is easier. With Tarmogoyf, there's no more worrying about building a deck to enhance a creature, or wondering what creature fits the shell you already have; all you have to do is add Goyf. There's a little bit of variety in figuring out who the supporting cast is, but the main deckbuilding challenge is gone because you know who's going to hog all the action. It's lazy deck design, but it also makes it easy.

[Mayk0l]

Wow, this thread is growing two pages a second. I'm trying to keep up, but it's too fast!

I just wanted to say that, although I do not agree with Jack on all the things he says and a lot of things he says have been succesfully answered by other posters in this thread, I agree completely with the fundament of his point, which is that Goyf narrows deck design. When people build a deck it starts with 4 Goyf, because eventually you're going to end up running them anyway.

The first time this struck me was when Breakfast started running them.

To me, this is enough reason to axe Goyf. I guess it's the same thing as with Skullclamp. It's a very powerful card that's easily dealth with (what with everyone running green anyway they're playing Krosan Grip too), but if Skullclamp would be legal, any deck with a creature in it would run four.
So basically, in Goyfs case, any deck that wants to win in the red zone plays Goyfs.

Remember when Deadguy used to play that white guy that got bigger when you had more cards in hand than your opponent? The fact that I have no idea what the card is called anymore is saying enough. There's really no point in trying to be creative (which I think that white dude is) when you could be running Goyf. Hello Evagreen?

[Seriously]

My argument isn't based on archetypes. I think that Goyf makes the format less interesting by destroying the diversity of creature combat and board positions, not deck types.

the use of firearms destroyed the diversity of hand to hand combat. I mean when you want to kill someone, you'll usually use a gun. sure bludgeoning someone to death with a cue ball in a knee sock is much more creative, but it isnt always the best or safest option. and as much as I think the military should go back to using swords as their primary kill condition, its just not going to happen.


Mosquitos, for instance, infest many different ecosystems, but I don't think they improve any of them, and they often wipe out less grating forms of life.

do you just go around making things up and then repeating them as facts cause they sound logical ? have you done any form of research into the destruction of ecosystems due to mosquito infestation. wouldnt that just be an example of the survival of the fittest ?


It's lazy deck design, but it also makes it easy.

how is a FOW, daze, counterbalance, sensei's diving top, brainstorm, ponder shell not lazy deck design. can you point out many blue decks that dont use atleast most of those cards. if you want innovative deck design, go and build some krarks thumb, goblin bomb, sculpting steel, copy artifact, infinite coin flip deck and let me know how well that works out. I'll sit here and use a huge beater for cheap cause it wins, I dont care if someone else thinks its lazy, easy and/or uninteresting.


Warned for ignoring a) other people's request to write better; b) P_R's two pre-warnings. ~Nihil Credo.

[Volt]

the use of firearms destroyed the diversity of hand to hand combat. I mean when you want to kill someone, you'll usually use a gun. sure bludgeoning someone to death with a cue ball in a knee sock is much more creative, but it isnt always the best or safest option. and as much as I think the military should go back to using swords as their primary kill condition, its just not going to happen.

For the person who kept wanting to invoke "straw man" earlier in this thread and the other one, the above is a good example of a straw man argument.


I'll sit here and use a huge beater for cheap cause it wins, I dont care if someone else thinks its lazy, easy and/or uninteresting.

As long as Tarmogoyf is in the format, you should do exactly that. Nobody but nobody is disputing that.

[Race War]

I wonder if all of this discussion could be settled by a simple errata - Legendary Creature - Lhurgoyf.

How huge would he be then?

[Doks]

In my opinion the format would be more interesting without Tarmogoyf, but I don't say go ban it!

As far as I remember, the number of Goblin decks started decreasing before Tarmogoyf was found to be thaaaaat good. So I don't fear Goblins having their come back if Goyf gets banned.

BUT, to be true, it really is annoying to see what wide range of decks uses Goyf. Best example before I had to take a little break from MtG was on a tournament I played against MUC that ran a single copy of Tropical Island to support 4x Goyf from the sideboard as a clock against combo / as a big fat winner against random decks without Wasteland.

Goyf does not only keep its strength in the mid-lategame, no, it even gets better at that state of the game, so you ALWAYS need an answer to it during the whole game (whereas Goblin Lackey gets weaker and weaker).

Goyf fits into so many strategies as either a win condition, a time buyer or just as an answer to the opponent's Goyf. So this makes looking for the perfect creature for the given strategy obsolete, as "Tarmogoyf!" is the answer in 95% of the cases.
I've given up counting the times I see two of them staring at each other on the table until one player gets rid of the opponent's copy and cruises to victory in 2-3 turns after that.

As I said, it probably IS not very interesting to see Goyfs everywhere and it obviously IS a card that influences deck building heavily, but is this enough to get the axe by WotC (interesting question: has it already reached the same status as Skullclamp did, especially can it still be abused the way Skullclamp was with its overpowered effect?).

Time will tell.


Doks

[Seriously]

For the person who kept wanting to invoke "straw man" earlier in this thread and the other one, the above is a good example of a straw man argument.

As far as 'straw man' is concerned, you've been the only one 'invoking' it anywhere in this thread. I choose to ignore pretentious nonsense when I see it, so dont pexpect me to play into it. You've said it over 9000 times already, to the point where I could make your posts into some sort of drinking game.

[heroicraptor]

I wonder if all of this discussion could be settled by a simple errata - Legendary Creature - Lhurgoyf.

How huge would he be then?

Or errataing it's cost to 1GG, which is what it was supposed to cost.

[Volt]

As far as 'straw man' is concerned, you've been the only one 'invoking' it anywhere in this thread. I choose to ignore pretentious nonsense when I see it, so dont pexpect me to play into it.

See below.


I don't expect to see the card printed unless the meta is so strong that it wouldn't be overpowered or unless a significant drawback is included in the mix. There's no intellectual dishonesty in taking a match to a strawman and setting it on fire.


You used a straw man of a 9/9 beater for G to argue that some creatures COULD be too powerful to see play in the Legacy meta and thereby be banworthy even if all they did was beat.


It's certainly your perogative to ignore "pretentious nonsense" and continue repeating shallow, illogical arguments. Or perhaps you could just stick to lurking/reading the thread in between tending to your child. I certainly have sympathy and admiration for that.

[irrelevant]

I like goyf in the format and I appreciate what it does for deck diversity in the format. I want to play a pile of mono black discard... well that sucks but not if I squeeze goyf into it. Perfect! I want to play mono red burn but that sucks too. Well goyf will make this competitive. I want to play land still but my wincon is to slow? I will put goyf in to give it a better clock. I want to play angel stax, god why do I like pulling wings off of flies.

I honestly feel that the addition of goyf has given rise to creative and interesting ways to add him into your deck. He has given deckbuilders the best weapon they could have, instant credibility. It seems so easy now because we are probably reaching the limits of where we can go, until another team America comes out or a new it's the fear gets piled together. just because the meta is built around this creature doesn't make it any less interesting.

[Nessaja]

Just... an organisation of thoughts:

-First off, Goyf is the most cost efficient beater in the format. I don't think I need to give an argument for this.

-Goyf is splashable for nearly every deck and almost every deck that uses a "general" strategy plays him because of that.

-Other powerful cards in Magic aren't as easily splashable or don't work with every strategy, Tombstalker? Requires 2 B which is a big strain. FoW? Requires atleast 16 blue cards. Countryside Crusher? Requires a specific strategy to get big. Lion's Eye Diamond, same thing. It's a card that works for every generic strategy.

- When something is generic in the sense that it can be played nearly everywhere it shouldn't be stronger then cards that aren't generic and played in a specific strategy. Any type of aggro deck that goes all out can not lay a more efficient beater on the table the Goyf. Get that straight a deck designed to play aggro cannot play more efficient beaters then a deck designed to control. At most, they can match the effectiveness of beaters by playing a goyf as well, but unlike control decks they can't tutor for it.

- Every type of deck is supposed to have a weakness, Goyf effectively gave blue control or even black control (and all the other hybrids) no real weaknesses (aggro is supposed to > control). The aggro part of legacy is practically dead when it comes to the real competitive decks. Goblins is the only deck able to keep up.

-The real problem with goyf isn't that his powerlevel is too high but that he is accesable to every deck in conjunction with having a rediculous powerlevel. If you needed to make an investment in green then Goyf would've been exactly where he belongs as green is supposed to be strong aggro, but as has been said Goyf is most played in blue decks.

- A lot of creativity is lost with legacy decks since the printing of goyf. When only one option is the absolute best in every situation it really isn't a good thing.

- I read a lot of people saying that goblins will reign supreme, but a lot changed since the time that Goblins reigned supreme, a big thing would be the printing of ad nauseum making combo decks much more potent.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Seriously, your metaphor borders on the absurd. For one thing, Tarmogoyf is not a fundamental difference of kind over other creatures, the way that firearms fundamentally differed from more primitive weaponry. Further, if I were to take your example at face value, I might point out that different military organizations all use different weaponry depending on need. The U.S. military has hundreds of different weapons for different vehicles and personnel, varying depending upon need and use.

However, even if there were a single weapon that dominated military systems by simply being better at every task, it would be silly to complain that we should restrict ourselves from using it, because you're discussing a matter of death. Magic is a game. It's perfectly legitimate to weaken the format in order to promote diversity; that's the entire point of a banned list!

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about the mosquitos metaphor. If you want an example of an ecosystem they've damaged, you could look at Hawaii, where they were introduced as an outside species and have wiped out a number of bird species.

Tarmogoyf is actually a lot like Skullclamp, perhaps the best example. Skullclamp didn't reduce the format to one deck either; Standard was about as varied with Clamp as it is normally, with a couple of top decks and a handful of other serious contenders. But it made the game stupid and deck design simplistic; you knew before you even started that your deck needed to either play Skullclamp or have a very good gameplan for taking care of the decks that did. And the latter were generally less successful than the former. Tarmogoyf is as ubiquitous and persistently annoying and easy as Clamp was, and answering it does as little to hinder the given deck as Oxidizing Clamp did.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm only going to point out one particular argument that I feel is unjustified by simply putting up a hypothetical situation:

If Tarmogoyf made other good creatures bad, what can Wizards possibly do to make Tarmogoyf bad? How can you make a single creature so powerful that it obsoletes a 2cc splashable creature that obsoletes creatures with casting costs up to 5?

They already admitted the card was a mistake. It's been such a house in the red zone that it's saturated itself far more than any other creature in the game, in EVERY format it's been in. Is this not enough reason to admit that it's probably better off being gone?

[Solpugid]

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about the mosquitos metaphor. If you want an example of an ecosystem they've damaged, you could look at Hawaii, where they were introduced as an outside species and have wiped out a number of bird species.

Let's be fair here. The mosquitoes aren't killing those birds, illness is.

[Nessaja]

That's the difference between guns killing people and people killing people. This is getting offtopic but there isn't a single species that exclusively preys on mosquitos. Removing them from the foodchain would therefor have a lesser effect then you might imagine. Regardless... mosquitos have a role in (assisting) killing animals which is important as well.

Ontopic, I sort of doubt that Wizards will ban Tarmogoyf, but my experience with Legacy bannings is limited. Correct me if I'm wrong but legacy is the main format where goyf is so dominant, a lot of people made an investment in a playset. If they ban Goyf he'll drop like crazy which would probably lead to a lot of angry customers. Did wizards ever make unpopular bannings before?

[Volt]

That's the difference between guns killing people and people killing people. This is getting offtopic but there isn't a single species that exclusively preys on mosquitos. Removing them from the foodchain would therefor have a lesser effect then you might imagine. Regardless... mosquitos have a role in (assisting) killing animals which is important as well.

Wow, is this off topic, but... Don't bats eat like a zillion mosquitos every night? Maybe that's not their exclusive food source, though. I should probably look this shit up before I post it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Some do, yeah. It would probably hurt bats and certain species of fish, although it's hard to predict that sort of thing because it's not clear what other things mosquitos are keeping down.

If the snakes become a problem, we can always bring in gorillas.

"No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death."

[Media314r8]

IMHO tarmogoyf makes the format less interesting because he obsoletes almost every creature on every part of the curve. Why play troll when he will just be a wall with a 1G upkeep? Why play baloth/hierarch when it's just a healing salve and fog combined? Why play Spiritmonger when goyf's about as big and beats starting turn three? Sea drakes are being raced by this guy, forget about Efreets, and flipped gathan raiders cower in fear. Hell two goyfs can block a dreadnought and one will survive while the other trades!

Goyf isn't the force that's keeping combo in check, CB/top is, and that DOES make the format interesting, as you can count on the thresh/dreadstill players to keep them in check.

Without goyf, werebear would still be an acceptable beat-stick for thresh, and the 6 life swing of Rhox War Monk will race goblins and combo almost as well as the 4-5 points from a goyf. Lighting bolt will kill most of the creatures in the format again, save for a few like RWM and 4CMC 4/4s. Curves will be varied, making CB/top not a lock, but a cantrip/discard/removal wall and winning wars of attrition. I own a set of foil goyfs and would gladly lay them to rest on a dusty shelf if it meant breathing new life into the format and picking up so many other now-obsoleted cards from that shelf to bring into a format free of the horrible, innovation squelching tyranny of tarmogoyf.

[majikal]

Here's the thing though - Tarmogoyf does just as much good for the format as it does bad. Sure it edges out other creatures, but at the same time it validates some strategies that otherwise would be subpar. We have a format where there are well over a dozen playable, winning decks. So what if a big chunk of them use Goyf? They are all completely different decks with completely different styles of play, which is kind of amazing considering how badly you think Goofy stifles innovation. I say he encourages innovation by giving credibility to those offbeat decks. Just look at that sea stompy/blue zoo deck from GP:Chicago.

And then I've got to ask, if Goyf gets banned, how many valid archetypes would we have without it?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Here's the thing though - Tarmogoyf does just as much good for the format as it does bad. Sure it edges out other creatures, but at the same time it validates some strategies that otherwise would be subpar. We have a format where there are well over a dozen playable, winning decks. So what if a big chunk of them use Goyf? How many valid archetypes would we have without it?

I have no idea what the format would look like without Tarmogoyf. Immediately before Goyf we had Hulk-Flash; the last uncompromised metagame was right after the release of Planar Chaos, which itself was having a new and interesting impact on the metagame. Since then we have a lot of new Legacy playable cards; Tombstalker, Yixlid Jailer, Epochrasite, Ponder, Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Warren's Weirding, Painter's Servant, Duergar Hedge-Mage, Stillmoon Cavalier, Jund Charm, Relic of Progenitus, Tidehollow Sculler, Wild Nacatl, Progenitus, to say nothing of various new cards for Elves, Goblins, Merfolk....

I think it's foolish to speculate that this format without Goyf would be inherently less interesting.

[scrow213]

Here's the thing though - Tarmogoyf does just as much good for the format as it does bad. Sure it edges out other creatures, but at the same time it validates some strategies that otherwise would be subpar. We have a format where there are well over a dozen playable, winning decks. So what if a big chunk of them use Goyf? They are all completely different decks with completely different styles of play, which is kind of amazing considering how badly you think Goofy stifles innovation. I say he encourages innovation by giving credibility to those offbeat decks. Just look at that sea stompy/blue zoo deck from GP:Chicago.

And then I've got to ask, if Goyf gets banned, how many valid archetypes would we have without it?

How many valid archetypes would we LOSE without it?

And in case you haven't been following, 'goyf makes creature selection simply "play 4 'goyf" instead of finding creatures that have synergy with the deck you are building. I mean, you build a deck, you have 24 various counterspells, 8 draw spells and you have slots left for a finisher. How about 'goyf? You have a mono-black discard deck, or a red burn deck, or any other deck you can come up with (apart from corner cases), and all it takes is a couple of green duals and some 'goyfs and your deck just got better. That is retarded. No thought, no innovation, nothing. So Legacy is now down to 56-card decks + 4 'goyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's really the biggest part of it. I think it's an enjoyable exercise, deciding what creature to fit into your deck, what works with it's given strategy and shores up your weaknesses, and most decks fall back on creatures to kill. Tarmogoyf removes that aspect of deck design to a large extent. It makes the game poorer.

[mercenarybdu]

How many valid archetypes would we LOSE without it?

And in case you haven't been following, 'goyf makes creature selection simply "play 4 'goyf" instead of finding creatures that have synergy with the deck you are building. I mean, you build a deck, you have 24 various counterspells, 8 draw spells and you have slots left for a finisher. How about 'goyf? You have a mono-black discard deck, or a red burn deck, or any other deck you can come up with (apart from corner cases), and all it takes is a couple of green duals and some 'goyfs and your deck just got better. That is retarded. No thought, no innovation, nothing. So Legacy is now down to 56-card decks + 4 'goyf.

True.

At least I can't say the same thing with Counter Top where it only fits in 3/10 decks by what I have been reading here.

[Omega]

Ill ask it again :

what makes tarmogoyf so easily splashable and abusable?

FETCHLANDS and dualands.

why should tarmogoyf go and not the duals and fetches? Legacy would be so much more diverse without those lands (note the sarcasm). Deck design wouldn't start with fetches + duals


Robert

[gvbarroso]

Ban Counterbalance or Sensei´s Divining Top
Ban Tarmogoyf and print a new creature: Goyf, with the same abilities but a GG cost

[FoolofaTook]

Ban Counterbalance or Sensei´s Divining Top
Ban Tarmogoyf and print a new creature: Goyf, with the same abilities but a GG cost

Or if they were really serious about addressing the power level concerns that Goyf might present they could just ban Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm and Tarmogyf.

The next go-round they could take out LED and Force of Will and we'd be in an eternal format not dominated by blue, combo or goyf.

BTW, if I sound cranky at this point it's only because I have seen blue dominate Magic virtually since it's inception. Everybody agrees that blue is dominant at the top levels and always have known. Everybody knows why blue is dominant and generally always have known. The elephant in the room is that Magic for all of it's wonderful diversity is actually dominated by card advantage and control of tempo and those are the two things that blue is best at. Sometimes the blue advantage submerges for a little while because something like Goblins comes along in a young format and people have not yet discovered CounterTop or Stiflenought to keep it honest. But that advantage always re-emerges sooner rather than later and then the grand parade continues with blue decks winning far more than their share of large events. Why do the pros that win large Legacy events always play blue? Because it's their job to play the best deck and they know that's going to be a blue deck.

I'd like to see a meta for a change where blue is just a support color, like white. It would be a refreshing change from the entire history of Magic to date.

[Nightmare]

we'd be in an eternal format not dominated by blue, combo or goyf.We'd be in a format dominated by Elves and Goblins. And I'd be playing Standard, because that format would suck ass.

[Poesjuh]

Ban: Goyf, Lackey, SDT and Tendrills

Now there's your new format :P Although that still leaves Painter/Stone and Dreadnought. Ah well, who cares.

Anyway, on-topic. My experience playing Legacy isn't all that great, however, from looking at all the decklists here, and I've seen quit a lot just like the rest of you, Goyf is everywhere! It's just like a plague, even if you scratch your ass goyf wants to do it for you. So far I agree with everything IBA has said.

[Nightmare]

even if you scratch your ass goyf wants to do it for you.
I would LOVE for Goyf to scratch my ass. Look at that claw! It would feel AWESOME.

[FoolofaTook]

We'd be in a format dominated by Elves and Goblins. And I'd be playing Standard, because that format would suck ass.

Most Survival builds beat both Goblins and Elves. Ichorid beats both Goblins and Elves. Affinity can beat Goblins and Elves. Iggy Pop can beat Goblins and Elves. Belcher beats Goblins and Elves. There are many other archetypes out there that either are not played as much as they should be, in the case of Survival, or are fully suppressed by blue control at this point.

I think it's more accurate to say that blue control would not dominate that meta than that tribal weenies would suddenly become the be all and end all.

Hell, Death and Taxes gives both Goblins and Elves a real run for their money and might well be the best control deck as well in a meta in which blue was no longer the dominant player.

[TrialByFire]

Or if they were really serious about addressing the power level concerns that Goyf might present they could just ban Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm and Tarmogyf.

The next go-round they could take out LED and Force of Will and we'd be in an eternal format not dominated by blue, combo or goyf.

Banning LED would not stop combo when you also ban FOW and BStorm. Combo would still be good.

[FoolofaTook]

Banning LED would not stop combo when you also ban FOW and BStorm. Combo would still be good.

The idea was to keep combo from over-running the format when you banned Force of Will. LED seems like the most powerful card in the combo suite at the moment and a card that has always been close to the ban list anyway, mainly avoiding it because blue suppresses combo so effectively.

[Nightmare]

Most Survival builds beat both Goblins and Elves. Ichorid beats both Goblins and Elves. Affinity can beat Goblins and Elves. Iggy Pop can beat Goblins and Elves. Belcher beats Goblins and Elves. There are many other archetypes out there that either are not played as much as they should be, in the case of Survival, or are fully suppressed by blue control at this point.

I think it's more accurate to say that blue control would not dominate that meta than that tribal weenies would suddenly become the be all and end all.

Hell, Death and Taxes gives both Goblins and Elves a real run for their money and might well be the best control deck as well in a meta in which blue was no longer the dominant player.

At the risk of sounding rude, your opinion comes off more like a spoiled child than it does an objective player. Why is blue's strength such a problem that it needs to be neutered? It doesn't stifle imagination or creativity. If anything, it promotes it by keeping the more broken decks in check.

Perhaps the eternal formats are dominated by Islands, but take a look at standard, or extended, and you'll often see a very different picture. In Shards of Alara block, blue is pretty much the nut low, and that's even in a format where half the blue cards get to be ARTIFACTS, too!

[FoolofaTook]

At the risk of sounding rude, your opinion comes off more like a spoiled child than it does an objective player. Why is blue's strength such a problem that it needs to be neutered? It doesn't stifle imagination or creativity. If anything, it promotes it by keeping the more broken decks in check.

Perhaps the eternal formats are dominated by Islands, but take a look at standard, or extended, and you'll often see a very different picture. In Shards of Alara block, blue is pretty much the nut low, and that's even in a format where half the blue cards get to be ARTIFACTS, too!

I've been playing constructed Magic for spans of time that stretch back to the beginning of the first meta. I've seen aggro decks do well for short periods of time and combo decks do well for short periods of time, however blue has been dominant in every meta I've played in.

The problem that I have is that blue control IS the more broken deck that you seem to be concerned about keeping in check. Blue leads to inevitability and I don't really care whether or not the most powerful deck in the format is 80% likely to win by turn 15 or 80% likely to win by turn 3. It's still 80% likely to win.

If we looked at a meta in which good decks rotated winning the biggest events and blue came out on top sometimes and combo came out on top sometimes and aggro came out on top sometimes it would be a different story.

And BTW, do you dispute any of the claims I made about the decks I listed beating Goblins and Elves at a good enough clip to keep them in check? I really don't think that if you down-leveled blue power it would turn into either combo winter or a tribal rampage. I think it would turn into that balanced meta that we'd all like to play in but have never seen.

[Volt]

Losing Goyf would be a bigger blow to blue than to any other color, but I don't think Goyf is going anywhere. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Top gets the axe tomorrow, though, which would also be a fairly big blow to blue.

Force of Will and Brainstorm aren't going anywhere, nor should they. They aren't even on the table.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Force of Will, Brainstorm, Duals and Fetches give Legacy character and an identity, as do Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, StP. I honestly though Goyf could fill a similar role for a while, but it simply edges too much out. Thoughtseize encourages rather than edges out Hymn to Tourach; StP encourages Wrath, Brainstorm and Force encourage FoF and Counterspell, and so on. And then entire strategies that revolve around these synergies, with maybe one staple card that's "most efficient", but it doesn't edge out the other stuff. Furthermore, while these cards are strong and pretty much automatic inclusions in one color, they don't necessarily drag you into that color. You can choose reasonably not to splash black or white or blue as the strategy may dictate, in order to simplify your cardpool and protect your manabase.

Tarmogoyf simply makes other creatures suck at combat. They do. They really do. 3-4 cc creatures cannot compete with Goyf at fisticuffs half the time. And other colors can't field anything to compete.

The card should have been 1GG. But as it is, it does a lot to damage the format.

[loop]

something like Goblins comes along in a young format and people have not yet discovered CounterTop (...) to keep it honest

Ichorid beats Goblins
I understand you're a bit cranky and trying to make a point, but don't be silly.

[FoolofaTook]

Losing Goyf would be a bigger blow to blue than to any other color, but I don't think Goyf is going anywhere. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Top gets the axe tomorrow, though, which would also be a fairly big blow to blue.

Force of Will and Brainstorm aren't going anywhere, nor should they. They aren't even on the table.

They restricted Brainstorm and Ponder recently in Vintage. I know that's not a clear indicator but it certainly shows that they're looking hard again at blue card selection.

[Arsenal]

Blue card selection in Vintage, when you're looking 3 cards deep for stuff like Recall, Twister, Necro, Tinker, etc. is a far different situation when you're looking 3 cards deep in Legacy for what, LED?, FoW?

[Nightmare]

And BTW, do you dispute any of the claims I made about the decks I listed beating Goblins and Elves at a good enough clip to keep them in check? I really don't think that if you down-leveled blue power it would turn into either combo winter or a tribal rampage. I think it would turn into that balanced meta that we'd all like to play in but have never seen.

I dispute them, yes. Mostly because when I said Elves, I meant TEES, which is Survival anyway, and has much game against Ichorid, etc.

By the way, it also kicks the shit out of blue decks.

In addition, you countered with Iggy-Pop and Ichorid, but you're also advocating LED being banned. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Without LED, those decks would be significantly weakened, possibly to the point of unplayability (for Iggy). At the least, combo would be losing to Aggro, which points at a pretty unhealthy metagame.

Focus on what the format is, not what it would be if you banned half the staples.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I want to clarify that FoolofaTook is in no way on my side.

Focusing on the Goyf issue, I don't think it would really impact the distribution of decks/archetypes too much. Again, Goyf being just a hyper-hyper-efficient beater only pushes out other creatures and some forms of removal, it doesn't lend itself to any one archetype or deck. Red would probably get better as a color, generally.

[majikal]

They restricted Brainstorm and Ponder recently in Vintage. I know that's not a clear indicator but it certainly shows that they're looking hard again at blue card selection.
The only reason those cards were restricted in Vintage is because they provided basically a drawback-free way to search up restricted cards, if not directly, then they helped to find other restricted search cards that could find restricted broken stuff. Ponder was just the straw that broke the Camel's back, so they had to restrict both of them.

Legacy doesn't have restricted cards, so the power level of Ponder and Brainstorm is actually much, much lower. You can't BS into your Merchant Scroll to get Mystical Tutor to get Yawgmoth's Will to draw it with your Ponder so you can play it and all of the rituals and lotus from your graveyard so you can replay Mystical Tutor to get Burning Wish so you can draw it off a replayed Ponder and play it to get Tendrils and win.

[FoolofaTook]

The only reason those cards were restricted in Vintage is because they provided basically a drawback-free way to search up restricted cards, if not directly, then they helped to find other restricted search cards that could find restricted broken stuff. Ponder was just the straw that broke the Camel's back, so they had to restrict both of them.

Legacy doesn't have restricted cards, so the power level of Ponder and Brainstorm is actually much, much lower. You can't BS into your Merchant Scroll to get Mystical Tutor to get Yawgmoth's Will to draw it with your Ponder so you can play it and all of the rituals and lotus from your graveyard so you can replay Mystical Tutor to get Burning Wish so you can draw it off a replayed Ponder and play it to get Tendrils and win.

You can BS into Mystical Tutor to get Ad Nauseum. You can BS into LED to allow you to go broken on your turn. You can BS into Counterbalance or Sensei's Divining Top to enable the combo. You can BS into 3 new cards, putting the 2 least powerful cards in your resulting hand back on top and cracking a fetchland to get amazing card advantage in the mid game as two lands (or whatever else is chaff in your current hand) magically disappear from your hand for better options. You basically can draw the top 3 cards on your library at low cost and with no conditionality at the moment you need to do so.

Really there is no other method of getting cards into your hand in the Legacy meta that comes close to Brainstorm except for Ad Nauseum which is a 5cc spell that requires a lot of support and a couple of black draw spells that have signficant costs both in mana and life to use. And Harmonize which is a sorcery that costs 4x as much as Brainstorm and cannot be used interactively the way that Brainstorm can.

There are no decks that splash blue that do not include Brainstorm. Many decks splash blue just for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor. Some splash just for Brainstorm.

Any argument that you can make for the banning of Tarmogoyf goes double for Brainstorm.

[majikal]

Any argument that you can make for the banning of Tarmogoyf goes double for Brainstorm.
Except I don't argue that Tarmogoyf should be banned, either. :tongue:

And none of your arguments against BS really seem that valid anyway. You don't ban the card filter. You ban the cards that do the broken things. The reason BS and Ponder got the axe in Vintage was because they reached a critical mass of card selection to the point where running those two cards ended up being more like running four+ of every restricted card.

[heroicraptor]

Any argument that you can make for the banning of Tarmogoyf goes double for Brainstorm.

Except that Brainstorm doesn't give the player a three/four turn clock.

[Solaran_X]

Except that Brainstorm doesn't give the player a three/four turn clock.
Try a 4/5 turn clock on average, barring any blockers or removal.

[Bardo]

Would the format be more interesting without Tarmogoyf?

I've been pretty invested in this format since 9/1/04 when Legacy was created. In complete honesty, I don't think the format is any less interesting now than it was before Tarmogoyf was printed in Future Sight (April 2007).

I've read the argument from both sides with an open mind and am unconvinced there's an actual problem that needs to be solved, esp. with as something as bludgeoning as the B&R list. Legacy still seems wide open to discover and innovate.

Tarmogoyf is nutty-good (and there are many nutty-good cards in Legacy); but I don't believe it's actually harming the format or making it "less interesting," as I would define that word.

I voted "no."

[Volt]

I've been pretty invested in this format since 9/1/04 when Legacy was created. In complete honesty, I don't think the format is any less interesting now than it was before Tarmogoyf was printed in Future Sight (April 2007).

I've read the argument from both sides with an open mind and am unconvinced there's an actual problem that needs to be solved, esp. with as something as bludgeoning as the B&R list. Legacy still seems wide open to discover and innovate.

Yeah, I doubt a single person has changed their mind one way or the other after reading this thread. Welcome to The Source, where everybody argues, and nobody is ever wrong!

[Bardo]

Welcome to the Internet, Chris.

This isn't the kind of discussion that is going to lead to "right" and "wrong" judgments, is it? There's no moral imperative here.

We're talking about a 3/4 - 5/6 for 1G in a collectible trading card game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Indeed not. The question is one of subjective quality, primarily as it relates to variety. There are two sides to this.

1) Does Tarmogoyf edge out, obsoleting or sidelining creatures in a wide variety of archetypes by simply being better in every deck, or very nearly so?

2) Does Tarmogoyf balance the format by giving every archetype equally valid beaters, and would some decks dominate others due to disparity in creature quality if Goyf were gone?

My answer to the first question is obviously yes, and I think it's hard to argue that point. The second one is the primary counterargument as far as I'm concerned, but I find it impossible to answer. It's based on speculation. I don't think Goblins was really in dominant in practice as people remember, it was just played an awful lot. It was a good deck but it rarely actually performed better than it's percentage of the field.

[Bardo]

The underlying point is an interesting one and one that doesn't have a simple answer. It strikes me as a function of a non-rotational card pool where everything great accumulates and floats to the top. Over time, how do you manage the upper crust cards, which inherently obsolete similar cards which perform a similar function (card drawing, discard, counter magic, dudes, creature removal, mana stability)?

Every couple of years R&D will make some beastly card that they didn't test enough or understand and there are now quite a few of those cards.

Looking at the past 15 years, for instance (excluding the banned cards):

Swords to Plowshares || creature removal
Force of Will || counter-magic
Brainstorm || Card-drawing (mainly paired with...)
Fetchlands || Poly-chromatic color stability (which multiply the numbers of...)
Dual Lands || Color stability

Also, I haven't heard anyone arguing that Tundra should be banned or creates an "uninteresting format" because Boreal Flats, Hallowed Fountain, Coastal Tower and Adarkar Wastes are now obsolete.

Tarmogoyf is arguably one of the best creatures ever printed and has found a home in the pantheon of "arguably over-powered / arguably fair" cards. I'm not seeing the big deal, other than observing this is one of those mistakes that we get every 3 years. It's not Flash, so I predict the metagame will adjust and cope, with these sorts of threads popping up every now and then.

The "problem," if you want to label it that, has to do with the nature of the format and that R&D blunders stick around more or less indefinitely.

[Volt]

Also, I haven't heard anyone arguing that Tundra should be banned or creates an "uninteresting format" because Boreal Flats, Hallowed Fountain, Coastal Tower and Adarkar Wastes are now obsolete.

Nobody plays Magic for the lands. They're just the board that you put the chess pieces on. Necessary, but not intriguing.

This kinda goes back to what Jack said about creatures being the heart of the game. I think he's right about that. Creatures are the characters in the story.

[Bardo]

Nobody plays Magic for the lands. They're just the board that you put the chess pieces on. Necessary, but not intriguing.

This kinda goes back to what Jack said about creatures being the heart of the game. I think he's right about that. Creatures are the characters in the story.

Last time I checked, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 that powers up with different card types in players' graveyards. It's those other cards that are powering him up. You could say that Goyf has remarkable synergy with this format: fetchlands, free counters, stuff getting countered by free counters. He ties the format together in some demented way.

As for creatures being the "character in the story." Um, what? Creatures have generally been second-string behind powerful instants and sorceries, I thought...

[majikal]

Nobody plays Magic for the lands.

What about 42-land? :tongue:


Last time I checked, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 that powers up with different card types in players' graveyards. It's those other cards that are powering him up. You could say that Goyf has remarkable synergy with this format: fetchlands, free counters, stuff getting countered by free counters. He ties the format together in some demented way.
This.

[Volt]

As for creatures being the "character in the story." Um, what? Creatures have generally been second-string behind powerful instants and sorceries, I thought...

If by "powerful instants and sorceries," you're talking about certain Vintage restricted cards like Ancestral Recall and Yawgmoth's Will, then I'll give you that. But I don't need to tell you this is Legacy. I know people - probably including you - are going to disagree with this, but Tarmogoyf is the most powerful card in Legacy. Yes, more powerful than Force of Will. More powerful than Brainstorm. More powerful than Wasteland. More powerful than whatever else you got.

[majikal]

Yes, more powerful than Force of Will.
:eyebrow:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The underlying point is an interesting one and one that doesn't have a simple answer. It strikes me as a function of a non-rotational card pool where everything great accumulates and floats to the top. Over time, how do you manage the upper crust cards, which inherently obsolete similar cards which perform a similar function (card drawing, discard, counter magic, dudes, creature removal, mana stability)?

Every couple of years R&D will make some beastly card that they didn't test enough or understand and there are now quite a few of those cards.

Looking at the past 15 years, for instance (excluding the banned cards):

Swords to Plowshares || creature removal
Force of Will || counter-magic
Brainstorm || Card-drawing (mainly paired with...)
Fetchlands || Poly-chromatic color stability (which multiply the numbers of...)
Dual Lands || Color stability

Also, I haven't heard anyone arguing that Tundra should be banned or creates an "uninteresting format" because Boreal Flats, Hallowed Fountain, Coastal Tower and Adarkar Wastes are now obsolete.

Tarmogoyf is arguably one of the best creatures ever printed and has found a home in the pantheon of "arguably over-powered / arguably fair" cards. I'm not seeing the big deal, other than observing this is one of those mistakes that we get every 3 years. It's not Flash, so I predict the metagame will adjust and cope, with these sorts of threads popping up every now and then.

The "problem," if you want to label it that, has to do with the nature of the format and that R&D blunders stick around more or less indefinitely.

It sounds more like you're arguing that Tarmogoyf shouldn't be banned, rather than the question of whether or not it's interesting.

That's one view, anyway. My view is that Wizards should selectively weed the format to keep it interesting. The banned list, which contains cards that are merely really powerful as well as those that are truly broken, seems to support this supposition. I don't think anyone argues that Black Vise would warp the format down to one or two decks, for instance.

It may be that I'm biased, since other cards have some degree of the same problem; certainly other cards see less or little play because StP, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm or Top fulfill their role better. It may be that older cards deserve a second look for this reason to, but it's easy to argue convincingly that Tarmogoyf is a much larger locus of this phenomenon.


:eyebrow:

Going by Deckcheck Top 8's, and adjusting for age (Goyf's been around since mid '07, and the decks there go back to '05), Goyf is indeed more powerful than Force of Will, or roughly equal; it's hard to calculate precisely.

[majikal]

Going by Deckcheck Top 8's, and adjusting for age (Goyf's been around since mid '07, and the decks there go back to '05), Goyf is indeed more powerful than Force of Will, or roughly equal; it's hard to calculate precisely.
I would have to argue that power level != ubiquity.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's not ubiquity. That's the likelihood of a given deck propelling you into the Top 8. That seems a very reasonable definition of power to me. To be completely fair, you'd want to put the number that Top 8'd over the number played, but without that information this is a pretty good proxy.

[Mayk0l]

Well, there you have it, no changes to the B&R list.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, there you have it, no changes to the B&R list.

How relevant is that to the discussion, do you think?

[Skeggi]

How relevant is that to the discussion, do you think?
Who cares about this 'discussion' anyway. The same arguments are being used over and over. People have their own set-in-stone opinions on this matter, it's not going to change. But hey, I guess that's the interwebz.

[Mayk0l]

How relevant is that to the discussion, do you think?

Well, to the discussion itself it isn't really, but it does in a certain way invalidate it, seeing as the bannings could've given us the more interesting format we were hoping for, but didn't.
However, Wizards didn't even mention Goyf as a threat to the format or its impact on deck designing innovativity but instead rambled on about Dark Ritual, which struck me as odd. Do you think Wizards even sees Goyf the way you/we do? I get they feeling they didn't even notice him.

[GreenOne]

just for fun from today's Wizards' article (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/30) about the B/R list:


The Reaper King avatar's ability gives each creature you control +1/+1 for each of its colors.[...]
Thanks to Reaper King, cards like Nip Gwyllion and Steward of Valeron become one mana 3/3s and two mana 4/4s, which are simply unheard of in normal Magic.


...are you serious?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eZbU-lJfaSk/SQcaI4zEF3I/AAAAAAAABPY/vhTtDdUowKQ/s1600/wild-nacatl.jpg
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tarmogoyf.jpg

[Black_Dog]

it sounds like a whole lot of whinning about a card that you can STP, Smother, Edict, get rid of.

Frankly I want everyone to run Goyf and Counterbalance b/c it means the decks I run will walk all over them.

[rleader]

^ I love that kind of arrogant dick stroking. Especially since "those kinds of decks" completely dominated at Chicago. Especially with Nassif's brilliant take on Trainwreck coming out on top. HELLDOZZZER!

[Tosh]

I know people - probably including you - are going to disagree with this, but Tarmogoyf is the most powerful card in Legacy. Yes, more powerful than Force of Will. More powerful than Brainstorm. More powerful than Wasteland. More powerful than whatever else you got.

Tarmogoyf is good but I'm going to disagree that it is the first most powerful card in legacy because I'm certain that it's Sensei's Divining Top; however, it probably is the second most powerful (influential) card in legacy. Tarmogoyf has turned around several match ups, namely the control vs. aggro match up.

[aTn]

it sounds like a whole lot of whinning about a card that you can STP, Smother, Edict, get rid of.

I totally agree.

The same can be said about Counterbalance. The whole discussion reminds me of a casual player who shows up sometimes at local tournaments and can't stop whining about "counterspell decks".

If the format offers infinite outs to a threat, why ban it ?

[scrow213]

I totally agree.

The same can be said about Counterbalance. The whole discussion reminds me of a casual player who shows up sometimes at local tournaments and can't stop whining about "counterspell decks".

If the format offers infinite outs to a threat, why ban it ?

Oh for fuck's sake. Are you intentionally oblivious or is it an accident? The issue is NOT, for the thousandth time, that Tarmogoyf is hard to kill, or play around. The issue is that Tarmogoyf squeezes into every deck he can, while edging out other creatures, and invalidating certain strategies in deckbuilding. This makes the format less interesting because there is no choice in what creature to play. It is (almost) always Tarmogoyf. Way to comprehend what you read.

[Peter_Rotten]

For those who have not read the B&R explanation, I have cut and pasted the relevant parts into this post:


We do not often get the chance to see Legacy played at high-level events. The last time we saw it was the team rounds at last year's World Championships, so we were excited to see the results of Grand Prix–Chicago (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/welcome). We were nervous going into the event because cards like Lion's Eye Diamond (javascript:autoCardWindow('Lion[s_Eye_Diamond')) and Dark Ritual (javascript:autoCardWindow('Dark_Ritual')) still roamed free. Magic developer Erik Lauer expressed his fear that the tournament would end up being a fight to the death between Dark Ritual (javascript:autoCardWindow('Dark_Ritual')) and Force of Will (javascript:autoCardWindow('Force_of_Will')) where nothing else could compete.

Happily, this is not what happened. The results of Grand Prix–Chicago suggest that Legacy is in fact wide open. The Top 8 contained three decks each that played Dark Ritual (javascript:autoCardWindow('Dark_Ritual')) and Force of Will (javascript:autoCardWindow('Force_of_Will')), but there were significant variations among those sets of three decks, and another two players made it to the elimination rounds with neither of those two cards.

I spent some time perusing the top 128 decklists (http://ww2.wizards.com/Site/LeavingWizards.aspx?url=http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?page_id=441&origin=) and got lost in an endless sea of variety. There were plenty of blue decks, but everyone disagreed about what they were supposed to play alongside their Force of Will (javascript:autoCardWindow('Force_of_Will'))s, Brainstorm (javascript:autoCardWindow('Brainstorm'))s, and Daze (javascript:autoCardWindow('Daze'))s. Some played Phyrexian Dreadnought (javascript:autoCardWindow('Phyrexian_Dreadnought')) and Stifle (javascript:autoCardWindow('Stifle')) to win the game with. Others played Tarmogoyf (javascript:autoCardWindow('Tarmogoyf')), sometimes with Dark Confidant (javascript:autoCardWindow('Dark_Confidant')). Some eschewed creatures almost entirely and instead played Standstill (javascript:autoCardWindow('Standstill_'))alongside Mishra's Factory (javascript:autoCardWindow('Mishra[s_Factory')) and Mutavault (javascript:autoCardWindow('Mutavault')). Some players even went tribal with Faeries or Merfolk.

Of course, that's just the blue decks, and there were plenty of other decks running around. Non-blue tribes were represented by Goblins and Elves. There were decks built around both Life from the Loam (javascript:autoCardWindow('Life_from_the_Loam')) and Survival of the Fittest (javascript:autoCardWindow('Survival_of_the_Fittest')). Some decks with as many as 43 lands were played on Day 2, as were storm combo decks with as few as 13. We are excited about the format's variety and how it plays, and we look forward to supporting it with more high-level events in the future.

First, the good news. Wizards believes that Legacy has a wide variety of decks and is healthy. They look forward to supporting it with MORE events!

Second, now matter what side of the argument you are on, I think you would find it odd that they made no mention of Goyf being so heavily present in the Top8. Instead they focused on Dark Ritual and FoW! Ritual continues to be "meh" in my opinion and, in fact, many posts back when I made a "best in class" type of card, I even forgot to include the "best" accelerant we have. And too many FoWs?

Also, no mention of Top or Counterbalance. Is it fair to say that Wizards is concerned about different cards than most of the members here?

[FoolofaTook]

Also, no mention of Top or Counterbalance. Is it fair to say that Wizards is concerned about different cards than most of the members here?

Wizards doesn't have a 2 year viewpoint on each format the way we tend to. They look at what has been over-powered over the years and they track that fairly well. They've always been leery of fast mana, and Dark Ritual is the best fast mana in Legacy, and they've always been concerned about blue control and Force of Will is most representative of blue control.

I'll leave their failure to mention Tarmogoyf alone. I've made my views on that issue very clear and there's no point in repeating them.

BTW, I think that the fact that they bothered to mention Dark Ritual and Force of Will probably means those cards are on a small bubble at this point that might get larger in the future depending on how events play out.

[Nessaja]

I think they're fine with a "beater base" of 3 (Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought and Tombstalker) with the occasional Progenitus. To be fair, things could be worse, even though I think the format would be better without tarmogoyf (in terms of deck design) he isn't skewing the format either so things work either way.

[rleader]

when I made a "best in class" type of card, I even forgot to include the "best" accelerant we have. And too many FoWs?

Yeah, I like how all the best cards in the format, according to wizards, open you up to (or demands) a two-for-one.

Not that I'm ragging on Force, but rather than a power card, I see it more as a tempo one, a prophylactic that ensures that the format doesn't scoop to something as stupid as All In Red like EXT did for a minute. OMG, you dropped a Deus on me!

[FoolofaTook]

Yeah, I like how all the best cards in the format, according to wizards, open you up to (or demands) a two-for-one.

Not that I'm ragging on Force, but rather than a power card, I see it more as a tempo one, a prophylactic that ensures that the format doesn't scoop to something as stupid as All In Red like EXT did for a minute. OMG, you dropped a Deus on me!

Force of Will's ability to make sure your bombs get through or are protected once they land is nearly as powerful as it's ability to prevent the opponent from connecting.

Turn 2 bombs backed by Force of Will and Daze often go all the way. That's one of the main premises of Dreadstill. It's less impactful in Threshold only because Threshold does not have a potential turn 2 12/12 trampler to put on the table. Both decks however have the SDT/CB combo to lay out early on an excellent draw.

[Arsenal]

Outside of Suicide variants and Storm combo, where does Dark Ritual get played? Due to enormous amounts of hate (CotV, CounterTop), Storm combo is quite good, but not dominant at all. Suicide based decks have largely been written off as Tier 2, although the recent GP might've changed that view.

I don't understand why anyone would be concerned with Dark Ritual right now.

[FoolofaTook]

Outside of Suicide variants and Storm combo, where does Dark Ritual get played? Due to enormous amounts of hate (CotV, CounterTop), Storm combo is quite good, but not dominant at all. Suicide based decks have largely been written off as Tier 2, although the recent GP might've changed that view.

I don't understand why anyone would be concerned with Dark Ritual right now.

They were probably concerned about Ad Nauseum Tendrils. I can't think of another deck in the meta currently that exploits Dark Ritual particularly effectively.

[aTn]

The issue is that Tarmogoyf squeezes into every deck he can, while edging out other creatures, and invalidating certain strategies in deckbuilding. This makes the format less interesting because there is no choice in what creature to play. It is (almost) always Tarmogoyf. Way to comprehend what you read.

1. Good job getting carried away.

2. The fact that there are a lot of answers to Goyf gives you the possibility to play the creatures you want - although I agree some choices aren't that good given that Goyf exists and isn't banned, but are still playable with intelligent deckbuilding. For example, Werebear is still played and is still a valid choice even though in terms of aggro potential he's clearly surpassed by Goyf. I've seen decks like Death & Taxes and Deadguy Ale Top8 in Goyf infested metas simply because of intelligent deckbuilding.

Did Goyf stop Goblins, no. Did it invalidate their whole strategy, no. Good Goblin players have adapted to Goyf and some continue to Top8 even in Goyf infested metas. Goyf probably lowered the power level of Goblins, but it didn't negate their whole strategy. The same can be said about the tribal aggro strategy in general.

Can you give me examples of strategies that are clearly invalidated by Goyf (and creatures that aren't playable because of Goyf) ? I'm trying to keep an open mind and want to hear examples that might convince me from your side of the argument.

Not adapting to Goyf and stating that it wrecks your plans is a poor argument (I'm not stating that you are saying this, but I've heard it before from others).

Yes Goyf changes the meta, but until I'm convinced otherwise, I'd say that strategies that it possibly invalidates were poor to begin with.


We'd be in a format dominated by Elves and Goblins. And I'd be playing Standard, because that format would suck ass.

+1 definitely.

[Black_Dog]

For those who have not read the B&R explanation, I have cut and pasted the relevant parts into this post:



First, the good news. Wizards believes that Legacy has a wide variety of decks and is healthy. They look forward to supporting it with MORE events!

Second, now matter what side of the argument you are on, I think you would find it odd that they made no mention of Goyf being so heavily present in the Top8. Instead they focused on Dark Ritual and FoW! Ritual continues to be "meh" in my opinion and, in fact, many posts back when I made a "best in class" type of card, I even forgot to include the "best" accelerant we have. And too many FoWs?

Also, no mention of Top or Counterbalance. Is it fair to say that Wizards is concerned about different cards than most of the members here?

I think Wizards and many outsider/casual players point of view for legacy is a bit off. Then again we're perhaps a bit too into the format so we exaggerate much (like ppl saying 'ban Goyf' or 'ban counterbalance/sensei').

But it's interesting to read through the articles from WOTC and hear about how askewed their idea of the meta is, than what it really is. I mean was it a surprise to see Dragon Stompy do so well?

Goyf does not wreck the format. Neither does counter/top (which actually is good for the format as it lets decks which have a higher CC shine).

[aTn]

Goyf does not wreck the format. Neither does counter/top (which actually is good for the format as it lets decks which have a higher CC shine).

I totally agree. Intelligent deck choices and deckbuilding adapted to the meta (and hence Goyf, CB-Top, etc.) can carry a lot of non-Goyf decks to the top tables of a tournament (assuming a good player is piloting). Examples: The GP and most Top8s posted on this site.

[scrow213]

1. Good job getting carried away.

2. The fact that there are a lot of answers to Goyf gives you the possibility to play the creatures you want - although I agree some choices aren't that good given that Goyf exists and isn't banned, but are still playable with intelligent deckbuilding. For example, Werebear is still played and is still a valid choice even though in terms of aggro potential he's clearly surpassed by Goyf. I've seen decks like Death & Taxes and Deadguy Ale Top8 in Goyf infested metas simply because of intelligent deckbuilding.

Did Goyf stop Goblins, no. Did it invalidate their whole strategy, no. Good Goblin players have adapted to Goyf and some continue to Top8 even in Goyf infested metas. Goyf probably lowered the power level of Goblins, but it didn't negate their whole strategy. The same can be said about the tribal aggro strategy in general.

Can you give me examples of strategies that are clearly invalidated by Goyf (and creatures that aren't playable because of Goyf) ? I'm trying to keep an open mind and want to hear examples that might convince me from your side of the argument.

Not adapting to Goyf and stating that it wrecks your plans is a poor argument (I'm not stating that you are saying this, but I've heard it before from others).

Yes Goyf changes the meta, but until I'm convinced otherwise, I'd say that strategies that it possibly invalidates were poor to begin with.



+1 definitely.


Ok, I am not quoting the entire thread again, as the creatures being sidelined by 'goyf have been discussed already. Look it up. The fact that there answers to 'goyf means I can play other creatures? Sweet! I can pack twice the removal so I can play less-than-'goyf in my deck!

And you named Goblins, a tribal deck that has even attempted to run 'goyf (after not finding a way to work him in). That has to say something about the creature. Even tribal decks are trying to play him.

[FoolofaTook]

And you named Goblins, a tribal deck that has even attempted to run 'goyf (after not finding a way to work him in). That has to say something about the creature. Even tribal decks are trying to play him.

I think what this says more than anything else is that good decks full of small creatures designed to cast on the curve that Tarmogoyf is in could not fit him in even with his superior power level. This is an argument that he is not broken, not the opposite, because if he was truly broken he'd have slid right into Goblins without a problem, replacing some beater there.

[aTn]

Ok, I am not quoting the entire thread again, as the creatures being sidelined by 'goyf have been discussed already. Look it up. The fact that there answers to 'goyf means I can play other creatures? Sweet! I can pack twice the removal so I can play less-than-'goyf in my deck!

Ok, I'll look it up. Who said you need to pack twice the removal because of Goyf ? A lot of decks who don't play Goyf don't need to pack twice the removal to manage it.

EDIT: Ok, I've looked at the whole thread and can't find one example that I can't refute either because the creature choice was bad to begin with (i.e. it was bad even in pre-Goyf land) or because the statement "I can't play creature X and win against Goyf decks" can't be refuted by simply giving a Top8 deck that played creature X (and beat Goyf decks in said tournament).

I don't want to be a dick, but some arguments sound a lot like "I want to play Illusion-Donate, hence they should ban all counterspells".



And you named Goblins, a tribal deck that has even attempted to run 'goyf (after not finding a way to work him in). That has to say something about the creature. Even tribal decks are trying to play him.

Some tribal decks have done fine even before trying to incorporate Goyf (e.g. Elves and Merfolk). Goblins doesn't fold to Goyf. Sure Goyf helps against Gobs, but it's not autowin and can be managed. Goyf doesn't have evasion and doesn't prevent the Goblins player from eventually swarming the board, etc.. It does not shut down their strategy, but they need to adapt to it (like any other decent beater with a wide enough ass).