[Single Card Discussion] Rhox War Monk

[jazzykat]

The card:
UGW
Creature-Rhino Monk
Life Link
3/4

Hot or Not?

Next to Tarmogoyf if you are playing the colors in an aggro meta is he near an auto include. I have been testing NLU after it took the top 2 slots of the GP. I have worked a meld of the decks based on my metagame and noticed that without good creatures to steal I would rather have some war monk action for my first 2/3 rounds facing burn/aggro/discard.

He is undoubtably situationally awesome but is he better than the alternatives (shackles, Werebear, Spell Snare?) to smacking around the aggro hordes and burn decks?

Let's keep the fact that he is a Rhino Monk out of this discussion because based on creature type he is an auto include...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It makes me want to play Shining Shoal and FoW in the same deck. Unfortunately, it's exactly the sort of creature that just ends up playing poor man's Goyf. It'd be interesting otherwise.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I pretty much have a hardon for this guy. I hate aggro control, but he makes their aggro matchup/burn matchup much better. I love big fat life gaining stuff, thus why my favorite card is Loxodon Hierarch :cool:

[Pinder]

I tried them out in Thresh, and outside of being a threat that pitches the Force, they were sort of lackluster. I think it has something to do with lifegain being the worst strategy ever. I think it's at least as good at what it does for its cost as Trygon Predator, but Predator probably does more relevant things, and also pitches to Force. I suppose you could board them to beat Burn or something, though. Ass of 4 makes it so they have to waste 2 spells to get rid of it, or risk invalidating a burn spell every turn while taking damage.

So, I guess my point is that Rhox War Monk is good if you somehow have trouble beating Burn, or something.

[Skeggi]

So, I guess my point is that Rhox War Monk is good if you somehow have trouble beating Burn, or something.
Or aggro decks with smaller creatures like Goblins and Merfolk; he's good against opposing Mongooses too (he's totally awesome against UGr Thrash if you play UGw Thresh).

I really like him, but to be real good he lacks a bit of size.

[Omega]

the biggest issues i had with him is that he is 3cc with 3 different colors.

If it was like trygon, i think i would play them in Threshold.

They do improve our MU against aggro (merfolk, elves and goblin). But being 3color, it is hard to get it down efficiently (mana denial is a problem)

Robert

[Bryant Cook]

I tried pitching this guy to EPIC two months ago. He's one of my favorite dudes at the moment. But unplayable because of Goyf.

[b4r0n]

I don't know if I'd say Rhox War Monk is unplayable. He can race almost every creature in the format (including a 6/7 Goyf), and he's a solid blocker against tribal aggro. The casting cost is a bit clunky though; I'd say that's its biggest weakness.

[Tacosnape]

Any threat that costs 3 mana in Legacy better have more than 3 power or do something a lot more awesome than just be a lifegaining beater.

[Volt]

If goyf weren't around, RWM would be about as playable as Burning Tree Shaman was b4goyf. I like the dude, tho.

[Peter_Rotten]

If goyf weren't around, RWM would be about as playable as Burning Tree Shaman was b4goyf. I like the dude, tho.

I hope you're saying that he is not too playable, right?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Burning-Tree Shaman was played competitively before the format rotation. Top 8'd at a couple GenCons, I think. 3/4 used to be a decent body size (the whole reason Werebear was so good was that 4/4 was larger than any other cheap creature outside of Negator and Shade), and throw in some keen ability like lifegain or making Top suck for your opponent and you're in business. Hell, Razor Golem was played in Angel Stompy, and that just had Vigilance.

It's a sign of what this format has come to that 3/4s aren't considered relevant unless they give you a card somehow. I don't think you could load a 3/3 with enough combat abilities to make it relevant these days. Fuck, people are dropping Nimble Mongoose. A fucking one mana 3/3 with Shroud, and it's getting dropped from decks perfectly designed to support Threshold for being too slow.

I fucking hate what this format has become.

[Volt]

I hope you're saying that he is not too playable, right?

He was definitely a second-tier creature, but BTS saw a fair amount of play. In particular, I recall he was pretty popular in European Red Thresh decks.

Anyway, I think this thread is in danger of becoming another goyfitorium, and that's not what I intended to happen.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In fairness, the question is "Is Rhox War Monk playable?"

It's hard to come up with an answer that isn't, "No, because of Tarmogoyf."

[Obfuscate Freely]

I've just about had it with you people blaming Tarmogoyf for making weak cards weak. A 3/4 for three mana has never been as good an investment as you're making it sound, especially for aggressive decks. This is because we can get three power out of a creature for much less than three mana. See: Rotting Giant, Watchwolf, Scab-Clan Mauler, Wild Nacatl, etc.

Rhox War Monk is a mediocre creature that will only really pull its weight if you can really use the lifegain. That makes it good against Zoo and Burn decks, Tarmogoyf or not, but those decks aren't enough of a metagame concern to really justify playing an otherwise lackluster dork.

[Volt]

I've just about had it with you people blaming Tarmogoyf for making weak cards weak. A 3/4 for three mana has never been as good an investment as you're making it sound, especially for aggressive decks. This is because we can get three power out of a creature for much less than three mana. See: Rotting Giant, Watchwolf, Scab-Clan Mauler, Wild Nacatl, etc.

Rhox War Monk is a mediocre creature that will only really pull its weight if you can really use the lifegain. That makes it good against Zoo and Burn decks, Tarmogoyf or not, but those decks aren't enough of a metagame concern to really justify playing an otherwise lackluster dork.

Deep breaths. I made no claim other than RWS would see about as much play as BTS used to.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've just about had it with you people blaming Tarmogoyf for making weak cards weak. A 3/4 for three mana has never been as good an investment as you're making it sound, especially for aggressive decks. This is because we can get three power out of a creature for much less than three mana. See: Rotting Giant, Watchwolf, Scab-Clan Mauler, Wild Nacatl, etc.

All aggro creatures that Rhox War Monk beats because it's a 3/4.

Tarmogoyf is one of a few small, cheap aggro creatures that can roll over RWM, and the other examples I can think of are Nantuko Shade and Phyrexian Negator. The latter is more than a trade for the Monk. Otherwise you'd need a group assault of tribal creatures, or a few of Dragon Stompy's threats with Hellbent. It kills the half of Threshold's original ground team that couldn't be StP'd in combat, too. So it does seem fair after all to say that it's Tarmogoyf's ubiquity that would make this card unplayable in mid-range deck. Obviously a lot would depend on the playability of such a deck, but Rhox War Monk would otherwise be good in such a deck.

Dry your tears, you thermodynamic miracle you.

eta:

When your support for an argument that other cheap, aggro creatures making Rhox War Monk obsolete is a list of creatures, all of which RWM would kill in combat while gaining life, perhaps you should consider if you're being knee-jerk in your defenses of Tarmogoyf here, Alix. That was literally the worst argument I've ever seen you make. I invite you to rethink your position and realize that I'm right.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Deep breaths. I made no claim other than RWS would see about as much play as BTS used to.
Yeah, but the implication there is that BTS saw any play. Jack even brought up its success at GenCon, which he actually completely fabricated.

Go ahead and look it up. I'm sure you'll ship me a list of awful Threshold lists with BTS in them in place of better cards.


All aggro creatures that Rhox War Monk beats because it's a 3/4.
Yes, all of those creatures are beaten by a 3/4, but only in combat. My point is that they all deal exactly as much damage as a 3/4, but they cost between 33% and 66% as much mana. In aggressive-minded applications, this tells you that the more expensive cards are awful. Even in cases that efficiency as a damage source is not the most important metric, if the best you can say about your three-drop is that it can successfully go mano-a-mano with two-drops, there are probably more efficient ways to spend your resources. Besides, you're lamenting the fact that Tarmogoyf costs two, and will often be bigger than a 3/4, but Werebear pummels 3/4s, as well...

If Tarmogoyf made it harder for people to rationalize poor three-mana creatures like BTS, Troll Ascetic, and now Rhox War Monk, then I am happy to have it around. Those cards do not make the grade in modern Legacy, without or without Tarmogoyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, but the implication there is that BTS saw any play. Jack even brought up its success at GenCon, which he actually completely fabricated.

Guess what? Fuck you. Don't you dare fucking try to imply that I lied about shit. As I already mentioned, I was confusing it with several of the premier Legacy tournaments in Germany with draw upwards of 80 people, which is far more than the likely number of actual Legacy players at GenCon. The decks were similar, except one ran green for BTS, Kird Ape and Quirion Dryad.


Go ahead and look it up. I'm sure you'll ship me a list of awful Threshold lists with BTS in them in place of better cards.

Second at a 60-man online tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10203).

Second at a 69-man German tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=7813).

Second at a 78-man online tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12688).

Third at a 69-man German tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10099).

Third at a 64-man German tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=5485).

Undefeated at the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12323)

5th at a 175-man German Open (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10644)

4th at a 114-man Spanish tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12446)

But no, I'm an idiot, I forgot: No Threshold deck that the Hatfields aren't personally playing or haven't directly approved is any good, no matter what the results say. My bad.

And you fuckers call me arrogant.


Yes, all of those creatures are beaten by a 3/4, but only in combat. My point is that they all deal exactly as much damage as a 3/4, but they cost between 33% and 66% as much mana. In aggressive-minded applications, this tells you that the more expensive cards are awful. Even in cases that efficiency as a damage source is not the most important metric, if the best you can say about your three-drop is that it can successfully go mano-a-mano with two-drops, there are probably more efficient ways to spend your resources. Besides, you're lamenting the fact that Tarmogoyf costs two, and will often be bigger than a 3/4, but Werebear pummels 3/4s, as well...

You're right: RWM would suck in an aggro deck, and lose to Werebear. But then, the aggro decks can't run Werebear, and RWM would be for mid-range decks that are trying to stop aggressive strategies.

Think back, Alix. I know, if you try, you can remember a point in time where creatures fit into decks based upon the needs and strategies of the given deck.


If Tarmogoyf made it harder for people to rationalize poor three-mana creatures like BTS, Troll Ascetic, and now Rhox War Monk, then I am happy to have it around. Those cards do not make the grade in modern Legacy, without or without Tarmogoyf.

Considering that it sees significant play in Europe as a tag-along to Tarmogoyf, the idea that it would be unplayable with the only 2cc creature that reliably kills it without Threshold seems a little, shall we say, moronic.

RWM and BTS would both be quite playable in a Goyfless format.

[Volt]

@Alix: Come on now. BTS got played in Red Thresh decks which won or placed in numerous tournaments, and you damn well know it. I know you never liked the card, but "I think people who played Burning-Tree Shaman were dumb" is not a relevant argument.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Carabas]

the biggest issues i had with him is that he is 3cc with 3 different colors.

If it was like trygon, i think i would play them in Threshold.

Would you play him if he cost 1GW? If so, why not play him in Threshold? Most builds I've seen, if you have access to 1GW, you have access to UGW, because all of your nonbasics are islands.

[irrelevant]

Wait aren't you showing decklists were BTS is played along side goyf? Wasn't your whole argument that the printing of goyf pushed out cards like that and that there is no more room to custom fit creatures into your build? Isn't war monk seeing play alongside goyf in the european metagame?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My argument is that custom fit creatures designed specifically to work with your given deck are almost without exception worse than Tarmogoyf tossed in, by a significant margin, such that their only function is to be there because you can't run 8 Goyfs and sometimes you need to draw a second creature.

I never claimed that no other creatures besides Goyf were played at all, which is demonstrably wrong, but that Goyf is supressing the relevance and diversity of the entire range of combat creatures outside of Goyf and a few situational monsters that have to be built around like Terravore, Dreadnought, Sutured Ghoul and Progenitus (all of which themselves also support running Goyf as the default, hey-why-not-I'm-huge beatstick of first resort)

Rhox War Monk seeing play at all indicates that he's playable, ditto to BTS. Alix and I can certainly agree that in the environment including Goyf, both cards are extremely suboptimal.

[irrelevant]

My argument is that custom fit creatures designed specifically to work with your given deck are almost without exception worse than Tarmogoyf tossed in, by a significant margin, such that their only function is to be there because you can't run 8 Goyfs and sometimes you need to draw a second creature.

I never claimed that no other creatures besides Goyf were played at all, which is demonstrably wrong, but that Goyf is supressing the relevance and diversity of the entire range of combat creatures outside of Goyf and a few situational monsters that have to be built around like Terravore, Dreadnought, Sutured Ghoul and Progenitus (all of which themselves also support running Goyf as the default, hey-why-not-I'm-huge beatstick of first resort)

Rhox War Monk seeing play at all indicates that he's playable, ditto to BTS. Alix and I can certainly agree that in the environment including Goyf, both cards are extremely suboptimal.

Fair enough and I do agree with that. I guess were are views differ is in the importance of other creatures being relevant. I've never played B.G. (before goyf) so to me going back to a "weaker" version of the format would be a step in the wrong direction. Staring with 4 goyf for me is the epitome of what it means to play legacy. you get the best counter spell ever printed, you get the best discard ever printed, you get the best creature ever printed. Having to revert to something that we know is subpar isn't something that I feel would change the metagame or shift deck evolution into new and varied directions. It would just make us all play with inferior creatures.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Here's the thing; you don't get to play with the best counterspell ever printed. That was Mana Drain. You don't get to play with Strip Mine; you have to make due with Wasteland. You don't get Yawgmoth's Will; you have to play Regrowth or Eternal Witness. You can't play the best burn spell ever printed, which is Black Vise. You can play Ancient Tomb but you can't play Mishra's Workshop. Etc., etc...

To say nothing of the power level of various legal or banned cards with the words "Mox", "Lotus", or "Time" in them.

I played when Mana Drain was legal, and was around for the switch, and it really wasn't the end of the world. Goyf has the fun of power, but that gets old. He makes the format and the ground less interesting than it would be without him.

[Artowis]

He isn't bad, but the Zoo-ish strategies you use him to battle against; where he would be superior to Goyf don't really exist in sufficient numbers in Legacy. Like turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 War Monk just destroy certain archetypes in Extended or Standard, in Legacy it's more like 'lol big vanilla guy because who the fuck cares about life-gain?'

[jazzykat]

The conclusion:

RMW

1. Awesome creature type
2. Good in addition to Tarmogoyf vs. burn/aggro
3. Shouldn't be played otherwise because Tarmogoyf obsoletes him

[3duece]

Doesn't this card see regular play in UGw thresh? That seems like the perfect deck for it and is probably where it should stay, it kinda fits the strategy of 'my cards aren't all THAT great but together they make me untouchable' that threshold has going on.

[diffy]

C'mon, cut the guy some slack. It's Mr. Pizza Boy (or Crêpes-Man, if you're French), he gotta be awesome.

After all, it's not like 4 creatures are enough for most decks, and since Tarmogoyf doesn't have a clause stating "If you whine enough about Tarmogoyf being the only good creature in the format, you may play more than 4 copies of Tarmogoyf", you'd better look out for the next best thing.
Rhox War Monk (RWM) sure is no Tarmogoyf, but he's still damn solid. Especially in something like NQG.
First of all, he can race most threats out there which makes him good in a general sense (on an empty board, no 4/5 or even 5/6 Tarmogoyf will ever want to attack into RWM because it would loose the race). The entire "lul. Lifegain sux" argument isn't holding up either: more than one Goyf-Mirror-Match has already been decided by whom was able to attack more liberally with his beaters due to having a higher lifetotal. Again, I think, the concept is called 'race'.
He's also terrific (as in better than Tarmogoyf) in a certain set of matchups.
Take anything Goyf-Slighish for instance. In those matchups, Tarmogoyf will often only be 2/3 or so by turn 2 (fetchland + instant burn - it's not like most mono-Goyf decks play loads of sorceries) meaning that he does exactly nothing. He'll eat a burnspell and die or just watch how Wild Nactal and Friends walk past him. Eventually, he'll grow to a size of 3/4, but even then Mr. T aka The Abyss will once again not keep you from loosing because your opponent will just attack into him, loose a guy a turn and just kill you with the burn he's amassing in the meantime: it's not like you can put up any sort of a clock because you have to stay back with your Goyf meaning that he has all the time in the world to find a critical mass of burn.
And I'm not even talking about something techy such as Relic of Progenitus joining the party - for sure the point stands that, in a vacuum, a Relic is a mere speed-bump, however, a speed-bump is all these decks need in order to win.
Rhox War Monk, on the other hand, comes down a single turn later, but then totally invalidates their main gameplan: they can't kill him as easily as an early Tarmogoyf (they have to double-burn it or swing into it + burn it which means at least 2-1 if not 3-1 card advantage for you) and can't just ignore him either because if they swing into it, it sets them back a full burnspell. Every time. That adds up rather quick against a deck with no card advantage but the oddball 1x Sylvan Library meaning that their 'sit back and find a critical mass of burn' plan just isn't so tempting any more.
The same logic can be applied to most other matchups where your life total is attacked from turn one onwards (Tribal Aggro being the most prominent example).
Now guess which deck has a bad matchup against aforementioned decks? Right. NQG for one (and probably most mono-Goyf decks out there too). Now I don't know about you, but in a format as wide-open and totally unpredictable as Legacy, I'd rather improve as many bad matchups as possible rather than improve good matchups because you're (almost) as likely to face Fulano with Zoo as you are to face Mengano with Elves or Perejano with GP Chicago N³LU. And I'm not even talking about 'advanced' metagame considerations such as "NQG is the best deck in the format, Elves/'token aggressive deck' beat NQG, hence let's play Elves/'token aggressive deck'. Or let's keep playing the best deck, but trying to improve its matchup against the best deck against the best deck" because Legacy players are too stupid for those to work anyway.

The conclusion:
1. Solid dork. If you could play more than 4 Tarmogoyfs, he'd probably be obsoleted by the later though.
2. Probably good against your bad matchups, so why not play him?

[rleader]

I used to have a bad tribal soldiers deck around the time that TSP came out: the deck was standard legal for the most part and I played a bunch of games against my brother who was using thresh (no goyf, no counterbalance, no Engineered Explosives era). Thresh killed the soldiers on tempo, but Spirit Loop allowed me to get stable around five or six life and then make a comeback once his hand was depleted. Plus, multiple spirit loops on oricish artillery is hilarious, it turns into a lifegaining machine.

[beastman]

I believe that Rhox war monk is one of the best new creatures to come out for aggro control in a long time. What U/G/w Threshold players need to decide on is whether the two extra mana is justified by the lifelink and the extra point of toughness. I doubt that the extra color requirements will ever be a problem, and the lifelink might come in useful also. There is also the added incentive that he dodges counterbalance much more effectively.