[Single Card Discussion] Old Man of the Sea

[jazzykat]

Since my last 3 musings in this forum sparked serious debate and the trolls have stayed out of them let's talk about another really cool, old fringe card.

Old Man of the Sea

1UU
Creature - Dijn
You may choose not to untap Old Man of the Sea during your untap step.
T: Gain control of target creature with power less than or equal to Old Man of the Sea's power as long as Old Man of the Sea remains tapped and that creature's power remains less than or equal to Old Man of the Sea's power.

2/3

So he's blue and a creature. He's also not Tarmogoyf. Vedalken Shackles is the obvious competitor, maybe better in most situations card.

I'm not going to go through the list of pro's and cons for each, I'd rather look at what realistically can be jacked by an old man and see if you guys think he's worth it.

Dark Confidant
Birds of Paradise
Eternal Witness
Trinket Mage
Doran
Noble Hierarch
Hypnotic Spector
Nantuko Shade
Grim Lavamancer
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl (conditionally)
Mishra's Factory (conditionally)
Tarmogoyf (for 2 seconds usually)
Sower of Temptation
Faerie Conclave
Magus of the Moon
Disciple of the Vault
Arc Bound Worker
Frogmite
Ravager (not likely)
Ornithopter
Mother of Runes
Most any Faerie or Merfolk until a Lord or 2 comes down
Any goblin but piledriver
Most any tribal guy (watch out for lords)

What he most notably does not get:

Dreadnaught
Tombstalker
Tarmogoyf (in all reality he's almost always a 3/4 really quick)

With a long list of marginal creatures you can grab (with no islands...if it matters) and the fact that you may never have enough islands to grab a big goyf or Tombstalker before the game is over anyway with a shackles is he playable?

A more interesting question would be to put him in concert with Sower (take big dudes) old man can take little dudes. Or in a NLU variant is it more interesting to go 1 Old Man, 1 Shackles, 2 Sower...?

BTW: He was last seen as a singleton in the side board of a top 8 list (Faerie Nought) at the Vestal Bazaar Tournament (3/21)

[Jak]

It gets a big "meh" from me. It isn't horrible, but the price tag, summoning sickness, and the narrow selection makes it just weaker than Shackles, Sower, Threads, or even Control Magic.

[jazzykat]

I'd like everyone to not take into account actual $$$ but just the technical merits or provide 2 analysis. 1. Technically how good is it? 2. Bang for the buck (although I don't think anyone is going to say he's worth going out and shelling $40 for)

[Bardo]

Old Man of the Sea has been a mainstay in my semi-casual U/w Aggro-control deck ("BardoStompy") for the past three years and I've logged many, many games with the guy. As much as it pains me to say, he's one of those cards that's much better on paper than in practice.

In any game where he's relevant, the speed with which he finds himself going to the graveyard or RFG zone is breath-taking. The rest of the time he swings for 2.

The only place I can see him shining is in a dedicated, "Steal Your Stuff" deck (with Sower, Shackles, maybe Control Magic, etc.). But the targets you really want are usually too big.

[FoolofaTook]

Sower of Temptation costs 1 colorless more, flies, and takes anything that's going to kill you. Not to mention it beats for two itself in addition to capturing another creature. It's hard to see how OMotS is even in the ballpark there.

The question is whether or not OMotS is close enough to Threads of Disloyalty in value to be playable at all.

Old Man of the Sea was not even played in the old meta, despite taking Hyppies, Kird Apes, Savannah Lions and Erg raiders, all of which were played enough to make them worth grabbing.

[4eak]

@ jazzykat


With a long list of marginal creatures you can grab (with no islands...if it matters) and the fact that you may never have enough islands to grab a big goyf or Tombstalker before the game is over anyway with a shackles is he playable?


While I love the Old Man, there are several reasons he will never be played.

Things the old man has going for it:

Possible to use the effect multiple times in a game

Allows for attrition fights
Can untap and take a different creature that may be more relevant
Has unique requirements for taking creatures based only upon P/T
Can't be targeted by Grip (unlike its substitutes), and so it is at least possible to protect him long-term.


Things it doesn't have going for it:

He doesn't scale against all the creatures in the format, and is limited to weenie decks only.
The check for stealing the creature is not only made on announcement and on resolution of it's ability, but it also checks constantly for the cases listed on the card: power becoming greater than Old Man's.

At any point in the game, a single pump on the creature or a loss in the old man's power would reverse the effect (even if only for one turn).
It is a creature, and very easily answered in this format
Difficult to cast for what you get



There are many cards that are already much better.

Stronger cards:
Vedalken Shackles
Sower of Temptation
Control Magic
Dominate
Threads of Disloyalty


Marginal Cards that are probably better:
Merieke Ri Berit
Seasinger


To answer your other question about Shackles:

Taking a Goyf or a Tombstalker with Shackles is extremely common. MUC has a mana-base designed to live through hate, and has little problem living to 4th and 5th turn to have Shackles take even large creatures. Other decks that would run shackles would play it later in the game, have cards like StP and other answers to live long enough without Shackles, and may have Dual-land mana base to support the Island requirement.

Sower and Threads also do a fine job, as their one time use is designed simply to provide enough Short-term tempo advantage that your opponent can't come back.






peace,
4eak

[jazzykat]

At least there is a lot of love for the "Old Man"! I have such a weak spot for Arabian Nights cards in general. I'll blame this on Tarmogoyf too :really:

@Bardo: Please start writing articles again,

[Skeggi]

I think this guy is a typical case of "if only he were a Merfolk...", but he's not. So he doesn't make the cut. Seasinger is probably better with all the blue around.

[dahcmai]

Sadly, I agree. Old man is much better in Vintage where he sees only smaller guys put on the table.

In Legacy, Goyf is entirely too common to have a card that can't steal him. Threads becomes a counter war just over that fact alone half the time.

I can totally see Seasinger going into Merfolk though. Scalable with the lords and considering most of the decks you see are blue, it's not bad. Definitely a good board choice.

As for the main, I will side with Sower (though I despise the CC) and Threads. In some decks I have been known to use the original Control Magic, but again, hate the CC and I hate Krosan Grip getting targets that I can't respond to when used.

Much <3 for Arabian Nights though.

[Soulles]

Judging the turn 5 and above scenarios. Shackles has haste, this guy doesn't.

Which makes him inferior imo, not to mention the power restriction.

[mercenarybdu]

It's worth every penny in playing as a good SB card. At least if you don't have anything to snatch, you still get some sort of small beater to smash your opponent with rather than just an artifact.

[Finn]

Jazzy, when I was first messing with Merfolk one of the cards I was sure I wanted to make use of was Seasinger. It was in the main.

Then the side.

Then gone.

And it is a lot better coming in from the sb than this card.

[from Cairo]

Sower of Temptation costs 1 colorless more, flies, and takes anything that's going to kill you. Not to mention it beats for two itself in addition to capturing another creature. It's hard to see how OMotS is even in the ballpark there.


/signed

Shackles and Threads are also both better.

[mercenarybdu]

Best to play only one copy alongside Shackles, and Threads in ones...

[Jak]

Best to play only one copy alongside Shackles, and Threads in ones...

Why?

[mercenarybdu]

Why?

Didn't you read Zac Hill's article about why sometimes its good to have sole copies of certain cards rather than multiples of the same card?

[Jak]

Didn't you read Zac Hill's article about why sometimes its good to have sole copies of certain cards rather than multiples of the same card?

Yeah, with stuff like Smother and Diabolic Edict. Old Man is pretty terrible compared to Shackles, Sower, and Threads and it offers no additional versatility.

[mercenarybdu]

Yeah, with stuff like Smother and Diabolic Edict. Old Man is pretty terrible compared to Shackles, Sower, and Threads and it offers no additional versatility.

Well, at least it is still an option on the table alongside the current obvious options.

[from Cairo]

When the current obviously better choices are not being run at their maximum number to begin with, the suboptimal choice can be ignored.

[4eak]

The Old Man is dead. He is Shock, and Shackles is Lightning Bolt. There are a handful of intricate and unique situations where a shock could possibly be better than bolt; but who cares? 99% of the time, Shackles is just much, much better than the Old Man. If for some wild reason someone needed to run Shackles 5+, then stick to the list I provided above; they are stronger than the Old Man too.




peace,
4eak