[Deck] Next Level Breakfast [Archive]

gustha

03-26-2009, 10:12 AM

Hi to everyone!
As for beginning, I'd like to apologize if my english does not soud good.
It is well known that Progenitus (aka "Progenitals", from now on) did "shake" the format, allowing some people to litterally resurrect cards like natural order. I've already read the topic about g/b natural order survival, but i don't feel too much comfortable with that approach. Here in Italy, a good job is doing 3sh natural order (for references, see http://www.dragonsleague.it/visualizza_deck.php?id_deck=136) which is more a aggro/aggrocontrol deck than a new archetype. I recently put up a list, still a draft, of a more pushy deck that abuses of show and tell instead of relying all the game on natural order. Here it is:

// Lands
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [US] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [MM] Island (3)
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [CNF] Progenitus
1 [CNF] Inkwell Leviathan
2 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [LE] Phage the Untouchable
1 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel

// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
1 [VI] Natural Order
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm

The sideboard is still to be thought, now my concern is to define the main board. I ought to say that the idea came form a friend of mine, we tested a rough version and saw it rocked. The idea behind this deck is to abuse, as said, of show and tell in the very early game. We have a good amount of fatties to put into play, each one of them protects itself (except for phage) and so put a very low clock to our opponent. The deck is able to cast a s&t/natural order in the first 2 turns, so long before a wrath can clear the board. The same is true for a virtually t1 survival. The deck has it's own aggro part (tarmo, for the most part), but it's combo engine is amazingly fast! (testing tell so). If our fatties die, the shapeshifter is ready to become one of them (discarding a phage is surely a good thing to do). The deck has also a lot of weak points, the most crucial of which is the aboslute lack of removal spell/effects (more like a combo than a aggro deck). The deck has potential, with a good MU against control and aggro. Is a little weak against combo, however.
Those are still thoughts to be defined, and i hope to success with your help.
Thanks in advance.

Skeggi

03-26-2009, 10:28 AM

What does Inkwell Leviathan do what Progenitus doesn't? Except not being able to be 'Naturally Ordered'. I guess he sticks in the graveyard, but don't you have Phage for that trick?

Same goes for Simic Sky Swallower.

Looks like you can save 2 slots here, a fourth Survival of the Fittest is probably something you'd want. For the other slot perhaps Vexing Shusher?

The 2 Elvish Spirit Guide seem quite random too...

gustha

03-26-2009, 10:42 AM

They seem in fact, but so far in testing they prove worth the 2 slots, allowing a t1-t2 very important acceleration.
Inkwell leviathan and sss are fatties that can be put in play with s&t, that is the very first wincon for the deck. The large concentrarion of fatties allows us to a very early s&t with no need to pass for survival, which is the key for winning games that protract to the midgame. The general conception here is: open a hand with s&t and a fattie (except phage): win the game if you oppo doesn't cast a wrath in the next 2-3 turns. Leviathan doesnot go under perish too. And yes, in this case it might be a good sb card (especially for control/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh MU) and not MD. But thus we will slow down the combo engine, which I think is the most important since we have no removal at all and we must aim at speed, I think...

Skeggi

03-26-2009, 10:51 AM

My point is, in 99% of the cases Progenitus is better than either Inkwell Leviathan or Simic Sky Swallower. So there really is no real reason to run those 2. If you feel you should have more fatties, I guess you should run more Progenitus, but that seems like a waste since you can Survival them to your hand for S&T. Or Natural Order him into play.

And if this doesn't work you do the Breakfast trick. All fine, but the cards I mentioned earlier really seem like junk.

gustha

03-26-2009, 11:55 AM

I do get the point, and you're absolutely right. Another good point to talka about, however, is that progenitus shuffles itself instead of going to the grave, se if we raise the number of progenitals we do nullify VS (= volrath's shapeshifter). I do like the monoshusher, but the meta here slowly turned into more aggro and STP became the most played card round here, making sss and leviathan all good fatties. The pros of leviathan are:islandwalk trample shroud
big body. The cons: cannot be a target of natural order.
sss: fly trample shroud, smaller body, can be tha target of order. I'd surely prefer sss instead of leviathan, to add the 4th survival. And what you think we can replace the 2 ESG with?

klaus

03-26-2009, 11:59 AM

I'll back up Skeggi here. Progenitus is better than most other options - if you want more targets run more Progenitals.
-1 SSS
-1 Inkwell
-1 Genesis, I don't see a reason to run him here.
+2 Spell Snare (really important!)
+1 Progenitus/ Survival

-2 Birds
-2 Spirit Guide
+4 Noble Hierarch (100%!)

SB:
3 Grip
3 Shusher
3 Sower of Temptation
3 BEB
3 Meta Slots
---
I'd also try to fit 2-3 Kitchen Finks in there.

gl.

TheLion

03-26-2009, 12:02 PM

I've tested Show and Tell in my Full English Breakfast deck, too, after I played it with Stifle/Dreadnought.
I also tested Natural Order/Progenitus.
So I wanted to test, if one of these combos is better than StifleNought in this deck.
In the end, I decided for StifleNought again, for the following reasons:

- StifleNought comes down on turn 2 and wins on turn 4.
- Stifle is a good card on its own.
- Stifle is blue (with Natural Order, I had serious problems with blue count for Force)
- Dreadnought combos well with Volrath's Shapeshifter.

Why I didn't like Show and Tell:
- I found that dropping a random (!) fattie (e.g. SSS) on turn 3, while your opponent get's a boost, too, isn't as effective as a turn 2 Dreadnought.
- Show and Tell is dead without a fattie.
- It becomes only really good, if you have Survival going, to provide answers like Borgardan Hellkite to Goblins or Archangel to Burn or something. But too often, that's too slow or inconsistent, or you could just win, with the combo plan (Phage/Shapeshifter) by then.
- you often tend to squeeze too many fatties in your deck, which often makes it worse. (danger of cool things...)

Why I didn't like Natural Order:
- It is green (as mentioned above, bad for FoW)
- I often had too few green creatures, making it a dead card.
- Also slower than StifleNought, though it is more secure, which is a big advantage.

I think the main aim is an alternative fast win condition, which does not use the graveyard, and isn't dependent on Survival.
And Stiflenought fits those requirement best in the moment (after my (few) test games.)

@your build:
2 Dryad Arbor for only 1 Natural Order?
You probably want/definitaly need more Shapehifter, the 4th Survival, 1 less Trygan Predator, and Akroma or Hellkite Overlord for the combo finish.

gustha

03-26-2009, 12:52 PM

@klaus: i really do like the hierarchs! absolutely in for sure!
Here's a draft, following yours and lions' advices:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [US] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [MM] Island (3)
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [CNF] Progenitus
2 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 [LE] Phage the Untouchable
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
1 [VI] Natural Order
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

Cons: no more room for s&t, gone back to a more standard fe breakfast list.
Pros: race is absolutely improved, my tarmo + hierarch >>> opponent's tarmo

Stiflenought draft:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [US] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [MM] Island (3)
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [CNF] Progenitus
2 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 [LE] Phage the Untouchable
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
3 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord

// Spells
1 [VI] Natural Order
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher

pros: more consistency, stifle is good enough. cons: no room for s&t, gone back to a more standard fe breakfast list.

EDIT: those dryad arbor are of no need anymore...
i think akroma's better than overlord...

klaus

03-26-2009, 01:05 PM

gustha

03-26-2009, 01:58 PM

With 6 mana critters, you can surely cut one land (25 mana sources should be sufficient) and add 1 Witness.
Now that you rely more on Survival, I don't like those 4 Dazes anymore, since you need all mana you can get.

And yes 1 Arbor should be enough, too. I'd add another Fetchland, unless you add another Nat. Order. With 13 green creatures it should be a good call, especially since you moved away from S&T, which is good, I think.

- How about Back to Basics in the SB?!
In the right meta it's insane, gives you more FOW targets and makes your Dazes good.

Yep, in fact i thought the same and cut 1 land for a witness, that i missed much. I feel ambiguosly towards daze...it's always a good countermagic, paired with fow, but with 25 mana fonts i feel that a hard/soft counter (counterspell? +1 snare? mana leak) would be more fitting...
B2B: surely a good choice in the right meta, but it fills the metacall. Here is full of gobbos, 3sh, rock, landstill, dreadstill. Maybe choke is more fitting.

EDIT: Btw, isn't genesis good to recurr with witness since we don't have black? (so no recurring nightmare or volrath's stronghold) and it gets us back a creature if, say, someone wastes a tropical while VS in is play (we don't have infinite fatties!)

TheLion

03-26-2009, 02:19 PM

Daze vs. other Counterspell:
It depends on the meta I think. I've tested them all (Daze, Spell Snare, Counterspell, Mana Leak) and Daze is only really good against Aggro Control Decks, which often play Daze themselves. Against other decks it is too dead or too irrelevant.
Counterspell is sometimes hard to cast, due to the UU, but good against the slower control decks...
Spell Snare is too narrow for my taste and does not counter the real problem cards (Blood Moon, B2B, Armageddon, Humility, Force, Swords, Needle, ...). Problem cards in the 2 mana slot are imo only: Meddling Mage and Withered Wretch. Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach and Jitte are annoying, but managable.
Well, and Mana Leak is quite ok, actually, but not as good as Daze against fast decks, and not as good as Counterspell against slow decks...
So, currently, I decided to drop them in favor for Ponder :-P.

gustha

03-26-2009, 03:08 PM

@lion: lol! You've surely testedd all well, but i do wonder why a deck that relies on survival really needs another draw engine besides brainstorm. Also, since it's the first time I approach to this deck (I'm basically a control player) I do wonder how to manage with postside graveyard hate, which affects tarmo's and VS. Surely your stiflenought version is less dependant on the grave...
Here's the list I'm putting up, discussing with my friend of the things mentioned:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [US] Forest (1)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [MM] Island (3)

// Creatures
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [CNF] Progenitus
2 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 [LE] Phage the Untouchable
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks / Show and Tell
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 [TSP] Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

// Spells
2 [VI] Natural Order
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

The sb has obv to suit the meta, so no matter for the moment. Some questions:
-red akroma over white akroma: the white one is best suited for fast attacks, has protection from tombstalker, crusher, etc. red akroma has protection to swords and bouncers. Metacall, or there's objective superiority of one of them?
-teferi: may fill the 4th daze slot, and save our creatures from instant removal. may be worth a test, surely
-finks: why do te hell they be worth 2 slots? isn't it better to discard stg to survival and then S&T it, instead of gaining a little bit of life?
-spell snare: i get the point, and i feel the same, those 2 slots have to be carefully considered. I think that klaus wanted to suggest a measure to keep counterbalance off untile we land a survival, and is good against other survival.dec too (in fact, the first to resolve survival is in advantage, i think).

TheLion

03-26-2009, 03:21 PM

@Akroma: The most relevant part of her (the white one) is haste. Then comes trample, then 6 power. The only purpose of this card, is to deal damage to the opponent FAST. Therfore cards like red akroma is crap. You could also run things like Oversoul of Dusk, and many more. But most lack haste and evasion.

@Ponder: It is no draw engine... lol... it just fixes your hand, searches for lands in the early game and improves your propabilies to drop a Survival on turn 2, which is the most important thing for this deck.
I still test it out, and many things come to personal taste and metagame in the end. It is for sure an variable slot, which you could fill with counterspells as well.

@Teferi: It is a good creature, but imo not worth a MB slot, since it is too expensive against most decks. I play it in SB.

@Finks: I'd play Wall of Roots instead.

gustha

03-26-2009, 03:58 PM

@ponder: yeah! that was a stupid comment...
@teferi: we have different ways to win: VS combo, race, natural order. isn't teferi a good card to combo with VS, so to secure our natural order?
@postsb grave hate: how to manage it?

TheLion

03-26-2009, 04:15 PM

@teferi: we have different ways to win: VS combo, race, natural order. isn't teferi a good card to combo with VS, so to secure our natural order?

I can't really see the combo with VS and Teferi... He isn't that uncastable, that you would need to discard it for Shapeshifter... If you have Survival and Shapeshifter in play, you nearly have won anyway.
So, I don't know if he is really that good, never really tested him. But in theory he is good, and I saw him in some other FEB lists already.
But if you want to secure your Natural Order (if you play it at all), I'd play Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher (both combo with Order, too).

@postsb grave hate: how to manage it?

Hard question, with many answers. Enchantment Destruction against Planar Void, Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon. Ground Seal against Extirpate (also good against Loam Decks), Withered Wretch or others. Pithing Needle or Krosan Grip against Crypt / Relic.
Meddling Mage, Repeal, or just an alternative win condition, which does not rely on the GY, maybe Natural Order in the SB, would probably suprise many players, who boarded all their hate...
Remember that you only need the graveyard during your combo turn (unlike Dredge) and can operate and find answers the turns before.

I'd play 2 Ground Seal, and 3-4 enchantment/artifact hate spells (Krosan Grip and/or Trygan Predator)

gustha

03-27-2009, 04:29 AM

I came to this approach after a discussion with my friend, who wanted to stick more onto the original idea. Here's what i found:

// Lands
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [US] Forest (1)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [MM] Island (3)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
2 [4E] Birds of Paradise
4 [AL] Noble Hierarch
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [LE] Phage the Untouchable
1 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower / 1 [CNF] Meglonoth
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
1 [CNF] Progenitus

// Spells
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm

SIDEBOARD:
1 [CNF] Inkwell Leviathan
1 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
1 [TSP] Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [OD] Ground Seal / Yixlid Jailer / Propaganda
2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
5 Metaslot

The shell is the mana acceleration and the permission tool. 3 copies of natural order really do, and those 2 s&t are the slots I want to test more further. It's like I: s&t "force". well, natural order then. "shit". I still want to find a room for eternal witness, maybe the genesis slot.

TheLion

03-27-2009, 05:19 AM

I wouldn't cut Genesis for Witness. Genesis is so important in the lategame. At some point I found Witness to clunky in this deck and put Genesis from my SB into the maindeck. Both recur something for 3 mana, but Genesis can do it every turn. And in at least 50% of the games, you'd recur a creature with Witness probably. But in the end it is again personal preference and metagame.

Your build looks really good. Though I'd play the 4th Tropical, unless you play B2B or expect many nonbasic hate.

Also, try out 1-2 Quirion Ranger instead of 1-2 BoP/Hierarch. Combos with BoP/Hierarch, and protects from Wasteland.

Here's my current build:

// 19
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Island

// 21
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
2 Wall of Roots
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Hypnox
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Psychatog
1 Shriekmaw
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter

// 20
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ponder
4 Stifle

SB: 15
3 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trygan Predator
1 Blazing Archon
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
2 Ground Seal
2 Divert

Enlightened Tutor tutors also for Dreadnoughts, therfore only 2 copies of him, but I might add one.
Hypnox in GY, then play Shapeshifter, wins games, too, and is one mana cheaper than Akroma/Phage/VS combo.
Of course he is exchangable with Blazing Archon (worth a MD slot), Archangel or whatever.
Shriekmaw is nice, too: Evoke him, play Shapeshifter, and destroy two creatures. But I'm still not sure, if he and Psychatog are worth the B splash...

I would be glad too see, if someone (you!?) makes a version with Natural Order and/or Show and Tell really work!
So keep the efforts going!

gustha

03-27-2009, 07:05 AM

I would be glad too! :P
I always played landstill, but testing after testing i'm feeling comfortable with this deck... the 3 natural order 2 s/t version (though s/t is still to test) is amazingly fast, while i think your version with dreadnought is on the contrary amazingly consistent and can face dreadstill with no worries (also, have you ever tried to snake in the sb 3-4 parallax tide? with your mana acceleration, control and 3sh MU would be a cakewalk...). And i really do like hypnox, but my meta has a high percentage of decks using red, so maybe archangel is the best call for that slot, and maybe archon would be more fitting in the sss slot too, since aggro/aggrocontrol has become a relevant part in these last months. There's a lot of nonbasic hate too, but i think that a t3-4 progenitus is enough for our opponent do desist from waste our lands! :tongue: I'll think about re-introducing the 4th tropical, and I must admit quirion ranger deserves a slot.
atog/maw: they were in the first draft of the deck, and i chose not to weaken the manabase fot them. It is true that they do some nice tricks with VS, and that atog delves the card above our creatures in the GY. But I think that by the time atog is efficien, we have already won (at least with progenitals :tongue: ). Another point to debate is maw, which is why i wanted to use the 4th tropical's slot for a underground sea. The total lack of removal, paired with the lack of archon, is sometimes annoying. Maybe is worth a good slot, and a really little splash.

some questons on your list:
md harmonic vs trygon: you prefer fastness?
sb trygon vs grip: humility isn't something to care about?
tradewind: what do you use it for? that slot and gilded drake are very viable to be substituted with parallax tide (gilded drake is good vs dreadstill and gets stalkers faster then sower of temptation...)
faerie macabre: isn't loaming shaman far better?

EDIT: made the same considerations about genesis vs witness, and in fact I find genesis >>> witness. Our gameplan is to win fast via natural order and/or s&t. If we fail and go to middle late game, genesis is the card I want in my grave!

TheLion

03-27-2009, 09:58 AM

some questons on your list:
md harmonic vs trygon: you prefer fastness?

yes. Most of the time, there's only 1 annoying artifact/enchantment. Jitte comes to mind, which you rarely can kill with Predator. It also allows for discarding it, and play Shapeshifter, who then triggers. (similiar to Hypnox and Shriekmaw).
On the other hand, you need the W splash.

sb trygon vs grip: humility isn't something to care about?

Yes, is is something to care about... In fact I didn't put much effort in my SB, and it is more based on theory, than on testing...
I also thought about Seal of Primordium (in my version) to get it with Tutor.
1 Seal, 1 Predator, 2 Grip is probably better.

tradewind: what do you use it for? that slot and gilded drake are very viable to be substituted with parallax tide (gilded drake is good vs dreadstill and gets stalkers faster then sower of temptation...)

Ever played against Maze of Ith? I failed to win, just because of it...
Also it was in the original FEB list as a 3-off in MD, so it can't be bad...:cool:
I could play Morphling, too, against Maze, but Rider has more applications.

faerie macabre: isn't loaming shaman far better?

Never used it, just theory... other Survival decks play it, so I play it, too...

Instead of Shriekmaw, you could also play/test Waterfront Bouncer or Sower of Temptation or Man o-War, just to avoid the B splash. Not sure what works best...

yakisoba

04-13-2009, 02:38 PM

Here's a GUB version of Breakfast. I have some questions, and will list card choice notes after the decklist.
4 x Birds of Paradise
3 x Wall of Roots
2 x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 x Volrath’s Shapeshifter
1 x Phage, The Untouchable
1 x Giant Solifuge
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Viridian Zealot
1 x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 x Shriekmaw
1 x Psychotog
1 x Genesis
21 creatures

4 x Survival of The Fittest
4 x Duress
3 x Cabal Therapy
2 x Lim-Dul’s Vault
3 x Unearth
4 x Stifle
20 spells

2 x Island
2 x Forest
2 x Swamp
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Windswept Heath
2 x Wooded Foothills
2 x Tropical Island
2 x Underground River
1 x Bayou
19 mana

Notes
Disruption over counters: I had not seen anyone that had tried this, so thought to do so. I wish there was better creature based discard.

Dreadnought/Stifle: Too good not to run this, and Stifle is a good card on its own. Hurts so many things, and helps the dreadnought.

Lim-Dul's Vault: The search du-jour, SDT and Brainstorm/Ponder, takes up too many spots. I just can't have all that, so Lim-Dul's is a reasonable two of.

Hypnox: Too conditional, too much of a cute trick, in a deck that already runs quite a lot of those.

Giant Solifuge: Rather than run Akroma, I run this. It's green, rather than white, so I can cast it if I want. I really didn't want to use a white creature if I could avoid it, so Solifuge got the call over Akroma. Might have her in the SB, since she does things that Solifuge can't.

Shriekmaw: Great creature kill, and superb with Shifter, as it carries another form of evasion.

Kira: Here's the scenario: I attack with Shifter (copying Solifuge), and respond to damage going on the stack by Survivaling for Phage. Opponent responds with spot removal on a BoP, hoping to mess up the play. I survival Phage for Kira, Kira for Psychotog, wait for opponent spell to fizzle (Kira would make them play another removal spell, or a sweeper), survival Tog for Witness (in case I need to recover something, and eat down to Phage. Damage goes through, game ends. Kira > Plaxmanta for that reason.

Unearth: Always happy to see this card. Worst case, it cycles. Best case, it can bring back a Dreadnought or something. It can't get every creature in the deck, but can get many of them.

Sideboard:
Metagame dependant. I'd think Krosan Grip, Withered Wretch, more Dreadnoughts, Blazing Archon, Platinum Angel would be a good start.

Constructive comments welcome. Yes, I am attached to this deck, having played it back when it was developed (I admire the guy that came up with the original "pump the hellion" mechanic). It's fun to mess around with, even after all this time.

gustha

04-14-2009, 07:08 AM

Hi!
Tx for replying to this post. I apologize if I've been away from it due to exams and technical problems with my ADSL :mad: Maybe, however, the approach you suggest is a little bit off topic. My aim was to develop a new level of FEB, abusing of the combo with progrenitals and many other, and to stay around a UG shell (with a splash of B just for some cards). So, probably you'll find more help in the topic dedicated to FEB. I really feel that this deck has no few problems with the GY hate. Adding natural order combo is a solid strategy to avoid the near auto loss to relic/tormod/leyline. I thought on stiflenought too, ad TheLion suggested, and though it is a very strong combination, it occupies too many slots: tarmo is a solid beater, and my meta lacks of other dreadstill so is not really something I care about. BTW, here's the list I'm currently testing:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [US] Forest (1)
3 [MM] Island (3)
3 [U] Tropical Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [LE] Phage the Untouchable
1 [DRB] Hellkite Overlord
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower
1 [CNF] Progenitus
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
3 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
2 [4E] Birds of Paradise

// Spells
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 1 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague

Just some little changes MD, a little b splash (other 2 B mana fonts are the Bop's) for maw that's an amazing card, recurrable in early-mid game with only 5 mana (and genesis in our grave, ofc! :laugh: ). No w splash, I don't want to weaken the manabase: we have 3 hierarch + 2 bop to cast the singleton sliver, and ofc we can discard it and cast shapeshifter. Hellkite overlod proved itself nearly the best card in the deck. A few beating with tarmo, and the *zack!*, when the opponent is tapped out, natural order on dragon to finish him off. SSS it's just the second fattie with shroud. to do the kira trick. The deck is quite good against aggro (we have also a natural order sb to be faster), and has troubles only against slivers (= 0 in Italy, lol!) and merfolk (= force of will and huge beaters in few time). Has a slighly favorable MU against control decks because of the diversified wincons, and the fact it can provide a powerful mana acceleration in the first turns. The manabase is also very tied, so wasteland/moon effects does not matter. Has a good Mu against dragon stompy, but not faerie stompy (due to the lack of removal), and meta full of that need to replace SB divert with something more effective. Balanced MU with aggrocontrol. The combo MU is "who combos first?", but not so much in favour. MBC and non blue-based control decks, such as the rock, loam etc. are all unfavourable MU.
Huge changes I have made to the sidboard:
2 grip/1 predator: humility is the worst enemy, maybe cop, but in general we don't fear too much hate of this sort, just because we have many different ways to win. Needle on survival/shapeshifter can be annoying, though. And enchantress is a bitch (really, I hate that deck). And ofc leyline of the void.
1 natural order: fast aggro? fast combo! natural ordering a progenitus, and the turn later a overlord/angel, is not that smart for our opponents.
1 blazing archon: swarm decks and ichorid
3 leyline/jailer: ichorid, aggroloam.
3 divert: metaslot, but works well as a cheap misdirection in counterwar too.
3 engineered plague: if a card would be worth a b splash MD, this is that card.

yakisoba

04-14-2009, 01:51 PM

Thanks for the current desklist.

Your next level is interesting, in that it's basically a way to get creatures in play via alternative means, while retaining the ability to hardcast the best ones. Kudos, as the SoTF card fits well into that design.

A couple of points:
SSS: It has shroud, but doesn't affect anything else. Kira, Great Glass Spinner has an ability that affects all your creatures, so you can fizzle a spell that targets anything with her. A minor point, but significant when trying to combo off in the face of instant speed creature kill.

Have you ever thought about running a disruption suite rather than counters? If you have tested it, what did you find out?

gustha

04-14-2009, 03:28 PM

A couple of points:
SSS: It has shroud, but doesn't affect anything else. Kira, Great Glass Spinner has an ability that affects all your creatures, so you can fizzle a spell that targets anything with her. A minor point, but significant when trying to combo off in the face of instant speed creature kill.
@kira: well, first of all kira is a 2/2 for 3, which doesn't sound good. Truth be told, she was in the first version of this deck, which abused of aether vial. Then it was good to put it in play in answer of the spot removal spell. She doesn't deal with mass removal, however, but SSS does not too. We also have no way to protect our combo than discarding it, and as you notice I pulled atog out, so I have no way to eat cards from my grave until phage. So the scenario you depicted changes like this: i attack with shifter cloning hellkite overlord (>>>>> giant solifuge) or whatever. Then i cycle phage for a fattie with shroud and wait. My opponent plays a spot removal and I discard the SSS or archangel I drew out of my deck with survival, the combo is not closed (i'll try the turn after thanx to genesis), but the opponent takes 5/6 flying damages...quite good result anyway. The simple reason for the 2 fatties with shroud is that is not rare to have a shifter cloning one of them, so when I try to combo i want to be sure I have another in my deck to protect shifter.

Have you ever thought about running a disruption suite rather than counters? If you have tested it, what did you find out?

i.e. stifle, e.g.? I thought. But this version has a combopart, and we need protection to use it. Blubased deck should be a favorable MU, no need to run disruption instead of counters ihmo.

yakisoba

04-14-2009, 05:30 PM

Ah, you make a good point. I may shift some things around a bit to take advantage of that. After all, responding to an opponent killing a BOP with a shrouded fatty is pretty good, and prevents them from messing with you next turn. You can always recover with Genesis or one of the other recovery cards in your next turn.

fearphage

05-24-2009, 12:00 PM

If anyone is interested in "Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir"-like functionality, Dosan the Falling Leaf (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/205.html) is a castable alternative.

I've tried Kira and I was pleased with it at the time. It's slow but can do the job on occassion.

I'm not sold on Show and Tell/Natural Order. Stifle+Dreadnought is 1-2 turns faster and it's bigger than them all. As someone mentioned, Dreadnought can end the game on turn 4. Best case scenario, on turn 4 you're ready to attack with your Progenitus or whatever creature you dropped in. That's a bit slow compared to what you're replacing. The best thing about the alternatives are that they have shroud.

EDIT: I wonder if it wouldn't be more beneficial to pick a side and go all the way: Natural Order + SotF or Full English Breakfast with extras. It feels like you're trying to stuff too many cool things into the deck.

gustha

05-25-2009, 12:51 PM

You have some good points. The fact is, the challenge was to build a FEB that was something different from normal builds. The way we chose was to build a deck more shifted towards combo, tha lack of any form of removal (except for maw) proves it. FEB + stiflenaught is surely faster in a mirror match, but I do wonder wheter it's better that NO combo all the times. As a landstill player, facing dreadstill, I know that dreadnought is easier to respond to that it seems, while progenitus or any other shrouded fattie is more difficult. The deck (in these months of testing) proved itself consistent, with some cons:
-slow starts are nearly gg's;
-no removals is sometimes a pain;
-the combo MU is uncertain.
Besides this, the deck seems to have consistent chances to beat aggro and aggrocontrol, while not being easy for bluebased control. I don't want to state this is better than stiflenaught combo, but the effort is to make it work at his best with NO combo, it's just trying a different conception.

Philipp2293

05-31-2009, 04:00 AM

At first I want to say hi to this community because I'm new. :cool:

I've been trying around with my own version of FEB lately, and came up with this list which I dubbed Full Metal Breakfast.

Lands (19):

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

Creatures (29)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Spellstutter Sprite

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Winged Coatl
1 Eternal Witness

3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phage
1 Palinchron
1 Empyrial Archangel

Spells (12):

4 Survival of the fittest
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Stifle

SB (15):

4 Orim's Chant
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gigapede
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Spore Frog

I've started testing lately, the first results have been quite promising. Combo Turn 3 is not that unreastical, but even if the combo is not feasible or disrupted, you have a strong backup plan with Stiflenought or exalted goyfs, even a Spellstutter Sprite with 2 exalted creatures can go the distance.

Things I'm not sure about:

- The basic lands in the deck, ok forest is given, but about the island and the plains I'm not so sure about, because they make hands with hierarch unkeepable and hands with them and only fetchlands quite risky (I'm paranoid about stilfe)

- I somehow want to include 1 Rafiq and/or 1 Vendillion Clique
- Also not sure about the SB

Aggro_zombies

05-31-2009, 04:31 AM

Dreadnought actually seems kind of bad here. It's a two card combination, only half of which you can tutor for; this is as opposed to getting big guys synthetically using Shapeshifter. In that case, both halves of the "combo" can be found through Survival, which means one or the other part of it will never be dead in your hand.

I've always wondered about a singleton Sower of Temptation in Bant-based Survival decks. Especially with Spellstutter Sprites and Cliques, supporting a Faerie sub-theme is possible, though it's debatable how much utility you could get out of Mistbind and Scion.

Palinchron is bad. Cut that for Rafiq.

Simic Sky Swallower is probably a good idea. Having as many big, shrouded guys as possible seems important if you're going to make Shapeshifter worthwhile. It's already vulnerable to graveyard hate, don't make it creature removal bait as well.

You've got Islands, so why not run a singleton Wonder? I hear flying Tarmogoyfs are pretty strong.

Philipp2293

05-31-2009, 04:44 AM

@ Dreadnought: I still like it for the following reaseons

- Stifle is still a good card on it's own
- It happens every now and then that if I have a Shifter in play and no survival, I just let Dreadnought die.

@ Palinchron: It makes the combo kill much faster, with Shifter hitting it's trigger ( or am I missing something and this doesn't work)

@ SSS: I got the Archangel, is a second shrouded creature necessary?

@ Wonder: Possible inclusion, maybe I change Genesis with it, not quite sure now.

Thanks for your input.

gustha

05-31-2009, 05:20 AM

@dradnought: already stated, this topic wants to improve a full-combo versio of FEB, including natural order combo. Please, leave suggestion on this, not beacause you efforts are not appreciated in evolving classic FEB, but just beacause there's already another topic on classic FEB where much experienced peolple than me could help you in improving your list. This is strictly for those (fools like me! :tongue: ) who believe a full combo version can achieve something good, be it more than mere fun in playing the deck (which is funny!).

That being said, I really liked the idea of the faeries sub-theme to improve the counter backup...

Forbiddian

05-31-2009, 01:48 PM

One quick question: How is Natural Ordering out a Progenitus actually good?

Remember Pro Tour Chicago? It didn't work in the Thresh shell at all (the theory was you sac a 0/1 Goyf after he yard-hates you or CB locks you and you Dryad Arbor and Natural Order through the CB Lock). Even in English Breakfast is a better home for the combo, it doesn't stop the fact that the combo is terrible. I guess it brought the Timmy back into everyone when they realized they could barf a 10/10 onto the board.

But this deck is a better home for that awful combo because you're running Show and Tell? That card is awful, too! Not to mention the fact that you get 2:1d if your opponent drops a Progenitus of his own, but you also lose the game if your opponent can put: 1) 6 flying power or more on the table, 2) Humility (already a house vs. the deck as it nom noms Qasali or Harmonic Sliver as well as the entire deck), 3) pretty much any Lord or other fast beater would give opponents the speed to race you and you lose.

Not to mention, it's hard to get Progenitus without Survival; if you have Survival, why don't you just win with the English Breakfast shell? Show and Tell just seems like an extraneous win con. And if you don't have Survival OR Progenitus and want to Show and Tell a huge fatty, you're triple-screwed.

What deck would POSSIBLY lose to a four turn clock starting on turn 3 when two of those turns come completely unimpeded AND you get to put the best card from your hand into play (or at the very least an extra land).

Didn't work for Threshold, why try it here? It's like putting Leyline/Helm combo into English Breakfast because it wasn't working out in the other shells and you felt pity for Leyline/Helm.

gustha

05-31-2009, 02:26 PM

That's a good question, finally. First of all, FEB which run show and tell before progenitus was printed exist and used a "highlander" conception to add more power to the deck (see bogardan hellkite eg). As in these thread and in others we can see, FEB combo needs to be paired with something (eg stiflenaught), because no player would play no B-plan. Moving towards green fatties may find a naturasl slot for natural order, since it's synergistic with lots of things in the deck. The mana acceleration the deck can put up is good enough to support natural order combo as a B-plan, which is, if not faster that stiflenaught, less exposed to hate (pre and post combo). That being said, it's true I try to use S&t the least I can (not to mention that standstill is a painful MU however, S&t or not S&t). The "potential" turn 3 clock of the deck has a lot of "if" 's in the actual meta, and NO combo actually is a good addiction to the deck, I think: progenitus is not the only target, so NO becomes a "transmute creature" which can suit the gamestate (arhcangel against burn, overlord for fast damages and exalted bonus from hierarchs while white is off, etc.), and it's not strictly related to progenitus. You may think at NO as the versatile tool to put on the field half of the deck, and yes, also to have a wincon that does not rely on grave and is removal-independant. But sss and archangel can both cover the same role, and both are legal targets of NO. To sum up, NO is more versatile and synergistic with other parts of the deck than a mere combo piece. The real pain I have is that I can't find place for removal tools such as stp.

Aggro_zombies

05-31-2009, 09:28 PM

@ Dreadnought: I still like it for the following reaseons

- Stifle is still a good card on it's own
- It happens every now and then that if I have a Shifter in play and no survival, I just let Dreadnought die.
Run just one Dreadnought, then. It's not that good in your deck.

@ Palinchron: It makes the combo kill much faster, with Shifter hitting it's trigger ( or am I missing something and this doesn't work)
If you're talking about the untap trigger, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work. It's also not very good unless you're running High Tide to generate infinite mana. Since you aren't doing that, it's just a 4/5 with flying and a self-bounce ability, which is cute but weak when compared to, say, Akroma, Angel of Wrath.

@ SSS: I got the Archangel, is a second shrouded creature necessary?
Your deck flat-out loses to a resolved Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Planar Void, etc. Why flat-out lose to Swords?

As for Show and Tell, that card is bad, and the Progenitus combo is too. The arguments against using Progenitus are still relevant: aggro just races you with evasive guys (Lord of Atlantis and Elvish Champion making the opponent's whole team unblockable), and control and aggro-control just counter the enabler spells. Using Show and Tell will reduce the number of potential two-for-one situations with Progenitus, but in doing so it opens itself up to getting hit by Counterbalance or giving the opponent something juicy to race you with. Just drop Progenitus and run creatures that:

a) you can actually hardcast, and
b) don't need the graveyard to work.

Such things for you would be stuff like Coatl or Rafiq. Hell, you could even run Spiritmonger if you wanted a beefy dork that you could play without needing the graveyard.

EDIT: I guess I should outline what I'd do in your situation. The Shapeshifter combo is nice but very fragile, so it shouldn't take up more that five or six slots in your deck. This way, when the opponent sides in graveyard hate for game two, you can side out the combo and turn the deck into a conventional Survival build. Taking up five or six maindeck slots means you only take up five or six slots in your board for Survival-y stuff, so your sideboard won't be cluttered. The combo package could probably be something like this:

2 Shapeshifter
1 Phage
1 Overlord
1 Archangel

With either Akroma or Simic Sky Swallower taking up the optional sixth slot.

gustha

06-01-2009, 03:24 AM

As for Show and Tell, that card is bad, and the Progenitus combo is too. The arguments against using Progenitus are still relevant: aggro just races you with evasive guys (Lord of Atlantis and Elvish Champion making the opponent's whole team unblockable), and control and aggro-control just counter the enabler spells. Using Show and Tell will reduce the number of potential two-for-one situations with Progenitus, but in doing so it opens itself up to getting hit by Counterbalance or giving the opponent something juicy to race you with. Just drop Progenitus and run creatures that:

a) you can actually hardcast, and
b) don't need the graveyard to work.

Such things for you would be stuff like Coatl or Rafiq. Hell, you could even run Spiritmonger if you wanted a beefy dork that you could play without needing the graveyard.
I can barely see coatl as a wincondition (what the hell does it do? just grows somtimes, goes under all removals we can imagine, ne elusive abilities), and rafiq good but not essential. I can't actually hardcast progenitus, that's true, but I can actually hardcast natural order and, as far as I'm trying to explain, that's a quite great difference. I'm very aware that aggro can outrace me (strange thing to say for a combo deck) if I drop s&t, but natural order has more to do with the deck that putting progenitus on the table. And anyway, my sb 3 engineered plague + blazing archon (debatable slot) are there to help this (with leyline, web of inertia can get some slots too).

EDIT: I guess I should outline what I'd do in your situation. The Shapeshifter combo is nice but very fragile, so it shouldn't take up more that five or six slots in your deck. This way, when the opponent sides in graveyard hate for game two, you can side out the combo and turn the deck into a conventional Survival build.
Survival is still a fragile deck...

Taking up five or six maindeck slots means you only take up five or six slots in your board for Survival-y stuff, so your sideboard won't be cluttered. The combo package could probably be something like this:

2 Shapeshifter
1 Phage
1 Overlord
1 Archangel

With either Akroma or Simic Sky Swallower taking up the optional sixth slot.
So my actual package without a shapeshifter... I thought shapeshifter was good not only to close the combo, but doing nice tricks such as copying the triggered maw or harmonic...