BW Vialing Deck - An Introduction

[Ancholess]

Hi everyone, here is a deck I piloted to a 1st prize split in a 55 person event the other month. I wanted to write a small introduction to this deck and the logic behind its construction. In essence it's a B/W vialing deck who's progenitor is Deadguy Ale. The change towards an aggro strategy seemed a natural one for this deck. But in the process I had to reexamine the fundamental ideas of how this deck wins and alter the decks core strategy from aggro-control to a more aggressive one. Without further hesitation the decklists.

Creature [23]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Epochrasite
4 Jötun Grunt
1 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Mother of Runes
2 Ronom Unicorn
4 Serra Avenger

Instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery [4]
4 Sinkhole

Artifact [9]
4 Aether Vial
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Pithing Needle

Land [20]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

60 cards

Sideboard:

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Umezawa's Jitte

15 cards

After the tournament the cursed scroll turned out to be absolute worst card in the deck by far. So here is the new list.

Creature [24]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Epochrasite
4 Jötun Grunt
2 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Mother of Runes
2 Ronom Unicorn
4 Serra Avenger

Instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery [4]
4 Sinkhole

Artifact [7]
4 Aether Vial
3 Pithing Needle

Land [21]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

60 cards

Card Breakdown:

Dark Confidant - Fairly Obvious

Epochrasite - The weakest creature in the deck but having said that vial's in as a 4/4 and in a mirror he's pretty good, not game breaking but usually good enough to push it to the breaking point.

Jötun Grunt - don’t play gofy/tombstalker/loam/.../.../... easy way to fit in some main deck hate on the back of a 4/4 monstAr

Kami of Ancient Law - Meta game choice but good vs. counterbalance/holds off standstill in g1 a lot, splashes against Moat or other weird hosers and sometimes if your lucky you can vile him in if someone tried to play deed too early

Mother of Runes - Plays offense and defence here, solid and late game he can be enough to tip the scales

Ronom Unicorn - See Kami

Serra Avenger - Fits the vial curve and vs. an aggro deck game 2 and 3 equipped with a jitte usually wins pretty fast.

Aether Vial - no brainer

Pithing Needle - an unfortunate necessity as this deck can fold to an EE, but splashes against a lot of heavily played cards like top, deed, Elspeth, Manlands

Swords to Plowshares - no brainer

Sinkhole- this can be the slot that is most questionably. The argument goes why not play some combination of Duress/thoughtseize, and this is definitely a valid argument. But after testing the theory came down to this. In any viable deck there must be some form of disruption, otherwise you will just get rolled, especially with a deck that really only runs 2 bombs MD (Bob, Vial). So in B/W you have a few viable options: Board Control, Hand Control, and Resource Control. Obviously board control options are out with the exception of SB Perish in a crazy thresh/Elves meta. Hand control while very good is best backed with permission because a topdecked bomb, or a bomb within access to vial doesn't care about the double duress opener. This leaves resource control as the best option. So this really boils down to Vindicate vs. Sinkhole for this deck. While Vindicate is the most versatile card, it is extremely slow and in a control heavy meta where daze is common, usually won't make it to resolution. So it leaves Sinkhole by elimination. But after taking a look at the core disruption strategy of this deck it works very well. The combination of wasteland/port/sinkhole gives you 6 "free" resource disruption so the addition of the sinkholes pushes it to 10 adding to the overall synergy of the stratagem.

What this deck does well:
It is very good vs. control as vial is usually gg if it resolves. But if it doesn't the LD plan will usually buy time to get a bob on the boards and ride him to the win, but some heavy long game control, like Landstill, may present some problems if they have a lot of sweepers. It is also very good against fish based decks because you have bigger guys. Against graveyard strategies the Grunts become an all star shrinking goyfs and disabling tombstalkers. The exception is dredge as grunt is too slow.

What this deck does Poorly:
Combo is a bit rough to say the least. But vs. ANT based combo the canonist can buy time and backed with a Mother it might steal a game. Also the LD can stall the game long enough to push 10ish damage in and at that point is might be hard to generate enough cards to go off. As far as elves go probably an auto loss without dedicated hate in the SB, but the Jitte's will help a little. Painter, Honestly I don’t know, hold all the swords you can and smash the painter right away. But this will probably not work as they will most likely have REB backup. This isn't a match up I have played at all, but from looking at the lists it's obviously a poor match up.

So that's the list and the reasoning, I'm interested in all feedback to move towards an optimal list. I feel this deck would benefit for the inclusion of 3 tops because if it goes late game the ability to topdeck beater after beater would be very spicy. Also as to the SB I feel as this deck is essentially a fish deck it is very meta dependent, but any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. I think that another question that needs to be addressed is weather a deck like this is a meta game deck or if the strategy has enough to it to become a viable meta-independent deck.

[workingdude]

I dont really understand the vindicate vs sinkhole.

The only downside you are mentioning is the situation against daze. Unless you are hitting a basic non-island, daze is going to scoop up the land you are targeting anyways. So even if sinkhole "makes it to resolution" its going to have the same effect as a countered vindicate targeting any sort of Island.

The upside, however, is you get to destroy any permanent, including the dreaded counterbalance that you hate so much.

Congrats on your first place finish.

[Tacosnape]

Dear Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Vindicate,

Thank you for your contributions to Magic: The Gathering, specifically the Legacy format, up until this point. Unfortunately, we will no longer be needing your services in black-white decks, as better, more efficient cards have been printed to take your place.

Sincerely,

Sarcasm

[Forbiddian]

You presented at least adequate justification for questioning the inclusion of Thoughtseize/Duress/Vindicate, and you chose a different path which was obviously successful. But of course people just look at that, "Oh, look, no Thoughtseize. I'm going to make a dumb post pointing out how you don't have Thoughtseize."


Thoughtseize is better in slower decks, as it usually picks off either their fastest cards or their answers to your creatures. With 24 creatures, you don't want to slow the game down or trade down (they probably have another two drop anyway, so you just slowed yourself down half the time) and you don't care too much about spot removal.

Sinkhole seems to be as effective or more effective at stopping Deed/Wog and the sweepers that really affect the game. And particularly behind a Vial, you want to take the timewalk.

Although Thoughtseize is a very powerful card, I trust you didn't let it go lightly.


I do question your decision to run 4 grunts (and potentially an overeliance on Vial). Have you considered 3 and more early game creatures? You get them almost as often and you don't get the crappy second grunt as often. I foresee a hand with like Avenger, Grunt, Epochrasite as your creatures (no Vial) leaves you with no good early drops and probably costs you the game as you don't have much else to do.

Having 8 4/4 Vialables is very cool, but Nimble Mongoose is really on the decline. Grunt doesn't singlehandedly win games as much.

[Esper3k]

I was just wondering if you had considered also something like Tidehollow Sculler?

It's another 2 drop that would also double as more disruption to use.

[johanessen]

Did you test Spectral Lynx and 2xJitte?
Also 4xTideholow Shuller.

And Obviously Vindicate, hymnto(debatable) and thoughseize.

Out Unicorns(vindis does its work), ephocrasites and other random creatures, pithings and maybe sinkholes

[Esper3k]

I've always thought a deck of good 2 drops with Aether Vial would be really cool (you could also use drops like Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg), but I could never get it to work.

Especially since you already have decks like CounterSliver which just seem to already do that job really well.

[zabuza]

i like this deck but two things must be considered.

First of all i think vindicate >>>>>>>>>> sinkhole. The reason is while sinhole easily will be countered by countertop, is more difficult to make the same with vindicate. Beside of that, vindicate can destroy anything on the table being tarmogoyf, tombstalker, counterbalance, ...... so i think is the best way to go.

Another thing is that i think the decks need any trick to save our critters. Nowdays in the meta i´m playing Zur´s deck is becomimng more and more played, so i think that only relying on static creatures is not the way to go. I´m thinking on playing in this deck stonecloaker. The benefits of that is that you can save one of your critters to be destroyed, enchanted, whatever, and it fills the cc3 of the deck. Since it has flash you can cast it at the end of the opponent´s turn and is a 3/2 flyier that removes ichorid, loam, make tarmogoyfs weaker than usual, save our jotun´s from dead and lot of cool things.

thoughts?

[Ancholess]

Ok, so there seems like there is some hesitation on the missing thoughtsieze, vindicate, ect. Lets look at this from this perspective. There once was a deck that was black and white that ran duress, vindicate and at one this point this deck was tier one. Clearly what I'm talking about is Deadguy. And what happened to deadguy? It became too slow. The aggro control game is now dominated by counterbalance and tops, for this reason this deck wants to get ahead before it gets online and vindicate doesn't come down quick enough to do that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of running versitle spells this deck wants to run super strong pinpoint strategies that compliment the strongest cards in the deck. In my opinion cards like vindicate are great in control but when your game is pure aggro you need disruption to help that plan. Thats why sinkhole is just better. Even is it gets dazed thats ok because you are still ahead on lands and ideally you will have threats online keeping the pressure on. What it really boils down to is i'd rather have a good threat on board because this deck makes your opponent react to your game plan.

also bear in mind that there choices are made though testing, i'm not suggesting if and whats here, this deck tests well in tournament play.

One suggestion i really like though is the sculler. I feel like this guy is a great addition to this deck. I'm thinking -1 avenger, -1 grunt, -1 epocratise for 3 sculler.

[Ancholess]

and another note, unicorns vs vindicate this choice comes down to vial really. EOT vile in unicorn bust your CB. This is a strong play, the unicorn also draws a lot of removal because if people need to resolve the CB they will plow a unicorn and let bobby do his thing.

[eq.firemind]

I think -1/2 Epochrasite, -1/2 Grunt, +3/4 Tidehollow Sculler. Your deck has it's way to protect Sculler (Mother of Runes), so he can be good here. And don't drop Serra Avenger. Better cut more Epochrasites, 'cause it's more situational (needs vial to be good) and its self-repair ability seems a little slow for fast agro deck.

[Esper3k]

You could also use True Believer somewhere (probably board would be best place) against combo.

I always thought vialing in True Believer in response to Tendrils for 20+ was so mean!

[zulander]

Dear Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Vindicate,

Thank you for your contributions to Magic: The Gathering, specifically the Legacy format, up until this point. Unfortunately, we will no longer be needing your services in black-white decks, as better, more efficient cards have been printed to take your place.

Sincerely,

Sarcasm
Lol I'm not gonna lie, that was funny.

[Tacosnape]

So if this deck is pure aggro, so much to the point where Thoughtseize and Vindicate, the two most versatile cards the deck can run, and Hymn, one of the best black disruptors ever, are out, why exactly is this running Mother of Runes?

[Mystical_Jackass]

I guess I'm no expert at this, but what I like is this deck seems to use vial and confidant to accelerate into its aggro... instead of more layed back, control using discards and deeds, etc. So I see where he's coming from. However, I am sorta a fan of 4x Hymn of Tourach over 4x Sinkhole... I mean, they're both really really amazing, but heck... half the time they end up discarding one of their lands anyways + another critical card, isn't that just as good if not better?



Anyways, I can see mother of runes being great because it'll protect dark confidant, which seems to be the true BEAST of this deck :laugh:
Vial, for the most part, can protect it from counters and such.. which is good, so the only thing to watch is stuff like swords, mogg fanatics, pyroclasms, snuff out, bolt, etc that'll be gunning for 'bob' @.@

[Ciberon]

Would you care to mention your hardest match-ups on the refered tournament?

[ZZZ]

I just saw this thread but I actually build a BW deck with Vial myself a couple of weeks ago. I haven’t been able to play it in a tournament so far but I’ve been very happy with it in testing and I’ll definitely give it a try in my next tourney.

Here’s my list:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Serra Avenger
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Tombstalker

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

SB (not finalized):
3 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
3 Gaddok Teeg
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

I really think a deck like this (and like the one from Ancholess), should play Thoughtseize, hymn and Vindicate. Thanks to Vial you have your mana open to play those spells and you’re still able to play a creature in the same turn.

The sideboard is still a work in process… (but I’ll just say that Ichorid is not played much in my meta so that’s why there’s no dedicated GY hate; the Grunts are there for Loam decks).

[Phantom]

I like that list, but take out the tombstalkers. They don't work with Vial, and destroy you off of confidants.

[Finn]

Hey ppl. Looking at what the author has to say, this deck and its design philosophy looks quite similar to Death and Taxes so I am opening my mouth.

Ancholess, I have wanted to try out a wb version of my deck. It would look similar to what you have here in a lot of ways. Given your slant, lemme just give you what I would try if I were to.

4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Ethersworn Canonist

3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains

The primary weakness behind an all-creature or nearly all-creature strategy is simple. Your guys are not going to be as big or as the ones being fielded by the opposition. This deck will have that same problem. And that is the reason I have never built it. Tombstalker, the cure for this situation does not play well with either Jotun Grunt or Confidant. This build chooses to go with Confidants and Grunts instead, but I bet the Tombstalker build could be very good. In fact, I am not convinced that you can not use all three despite the problems you would incur (I would simply pull the Hymns for Stalkers for starters).

In short, the other guys in your deck were not optimal choices. Yes, even Mother of Runes. I'm not picking on you by any stretch. But you posted your deck and I am imparting my own experience with similar designs to you to save you the testing work.

[lavafrogg]

Finn- I read that deaklist and laughed. It looks soooo much like the decklist I sent you it seems coincidental.

I only have one question for this deck: why isnt it this deck?

PT Junk

Rene Jungbauer

Grand Prix-Chicago

4 thoughtseize
3 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
2 krosan grip

4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
4 serra avenger
4 tarmogoyf
3 jotun grunt

3 umezawa’s jitte
4 aether vial

4 scrubland
1 volrath’s stronghold
1 bayou
1 savannah
3 plains
3 wasteland
2 swamp
3 polluted delta
3 windswept heath

Sideboard

2 krosan grip
4 true believer
3 tormod’s crypt
3 engineered explosives
1 jotun grunt
2 diabolic edict

I really like this deck in that it does evrything you want your deck to do except it plays tarmogoyf. In all honesty I do not appreciate how everyone plays tarmogoyf in any creature deck but he does stop the number one played creature quite well, also yours can pick up a jitte and goto town.

I think the deck really wants hymm, but finding room would be really hard.

The random stronghold can proably be exchanged for another land as well, but other than that this deck made day two at the gp...

p.s. and I have no problem playing tombstalker and dark confidant in the same deck, most of the time if confidant lives to draw you one card you are proably winning, the curve of this deck is very low, and you have jitte to offset the hit if you have to(and swords on one of your dudes). Ive never flipped him and lost a game I wasnt already going to lose.

[Tacosnape]

Aside from

1. It plays well with Serra Avenger.
2. It plays through Counterbalance.

Justify Aether Vial in the above decklists. Is it really worthwhile, and is 4 the correct number, given that you'll barely have the card draw to ever supprt 1, much less multiple?

[Finn]

@ Lavafrogg, yeah it is. Look, the plan has merit. The reasons I was so quick to condemn what you sent me though, were the differences. The land supply, for starters, is not right. 8 green sources, none of them basic lands sucks with no Brainstorms or Ponders to help. Heck it sucks even with them. And only two actual green lands. And also the True Believers in the sb could not have done a thing for this guy. Trust me here. I was using them longer than I wanted to in D+T even knowing that they were garbage. Finally, it is the Grunts with Tarmos together with no real plan to make them work. I think they CAN work together, but not with so many permanents.

@Taco, you make a good point. I will answer this way.

Doesn't Pernicious Deed suck in a deck with Tarmos, Shackles, and Counterbalances? ITF
Doesn't Tombstalker suck with Tarmos? TA
etc.

Legacy is full of this stuff. When something is powerful enough to dominate the game, it does not have to fit perfectly. And btw, even if Vial's only advantage was to get around Counterbalance, I might still use it.

[Ancholess]

PT Junk

Rene Jungbauer

Grand Prix-Chicago

4 thoughtseize
3 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
2 krosan grip

4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
4 serra avenger
4 tarmogoyf
3 jotun grunt

3 umezawa’s jitte
4 aether vial

4 scrubland
1 volrath’s stronghold
1 bayou
1 savannah
3 plains
3 wasteland
2 swamp
3 polluted delta
3 windswept heath

Sideboard

2 krosan grip
4 true believer
3 tormod’s crypt
3 engineered explosives
1 jotun grunt
2 diabolic edict

I agree this should be the deck, I've played the deck for a while and this address all the problems the deck has, the only thing I would change is the scullers for Epocrasite. My reasoning is that vs control epocrasite is the stone cold nuts while sculler can lead to very unfavorable interactions. I would also play 3 needles in the board.