New Keyword: Cascade

[Skeggi]

Found this on MTGSalvation:



Keyword: 続唱 / 'Double Cast'

"[When you play this], Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a nonland card with lesser converted mana cost than this spell. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all revealed cards still in your library on the bottom of your library [at random / in any order / --].Notes: This could trigger on playing the spell, or it could be a keyword action you simply enact like scry.


It appears on this not-yet-confirmed card:

Tar Shards :3::b::r:
Instant (U)
'Double Cast'
~this~ deals 4 damage to target creature.
When you play this spell, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a nonland card with lesser converted mana cost than this spell. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all revealed cards still in your library on the bottom of your library at random order.

[Sek'Kuar]

This...piques my interest, but i think its a bit too random to see play here. Question, not that anyone would know, but could a card with double cast played off of a card with double cast have its double cast activated? I'm assuming yes. This could lead to very interesting games if one had library manipulators.

[mujadaddy]

Good lord. They better all have high cc's *and* suck as (legacy) spells.

[Skeggi]

Keep in mind it only triggers on lesser cc spells, so it can't go on forever. It does have all the potential of being broken, but it really depends on what else they're going to print with doublecast.

EDIT: It has been confirmed.

[Dark_Shakuras]

Yeah, less than instead of less that or equal to makes it way less broken. Unless... Actually idk, fill it in a deck with ritual effects and it could be pretty strong. I agree, everything better cost 4-5cc, do something trivial (like NOT draw cards) and be in 9 different color's.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

A 1 mana doublecast card would be the brokenest thingy ever. 1 Mana do some effect + ancestral vision.

[rufus]

Combined with the appropriate tutors, this can be used to play Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, or Lotus Bloom. It doesn't have to be 1 cc, even if this is on spells with 2x casting cost, it could have potential in stompy-type decks.

[Skeggi]

it could have potential in stompy-type decks.
The problem here is that you may stumble upon a Mox...

[beastman]

Thats why you use library manipulation. This mechanic looks like it has some serious potential for storm decks though.

[Bryant Cook]

Thats why you use library manipulation. This mechanic looks like it has some serious potential for storm decks though.

[Sarcasm] YEAH! I can cheat that Chrome Mox into play! [/End Sarcasm]

There's too many random bad cards in storm decks for this to be of good use.

EDIT: This seems awfully close to ripple.

[Aggro_zombies]

I love how this mechanic is basically a janky but stealthy way to get mana fixing into the set.

[heroicraptor]

Ugh, this mechanic sucks.

[jjjoness']

It doesn't allow you to play sorcery speed cards, does it?

[heroicraptor]

It doesn't allow you to play sorcery speed cards, does it?

Why wouldn't it?

[Tacosnape]

This is going to depend on the cards they print for it, I think. Tar Shards seems to suck. But in some UBR Control deck, Tar Shards into Fact or Fiction is sexy.

I disagree with the decks that will use it, though. I think control decks will use it more for the card and tempo advantage.

[spirit of the wretch]

Good lord. They better all have high cc's *and* suck as (legacy) spells.

Rest assured, they will.
To make this legacy playable, I'd guess the card would have to cost 2 or 3 mana (in the 4CC slot I highly doubt they print an effect comparable to Fact/Wrath/Geddon + Doublecast) and has to have an effect that keeps up with legacys powerlevel...
I doubt that will happen.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is going to depend on the cards they print for it, I think. Tar Shards seems to suck. But in some UBR Control deck, Tar Shards into Fact or Fiction is sexy.

I disagree with the decks that will use it, though. I think control decks will use it more for the card and tempo advantage.
This assumes there are any playable cards with this ability.

The problem is, at least as far as control decks go, Double Cast spells increase in usefulness as their CMC increases. Control decks tend to run cards up to five mana, but most of the business spells are in the three to four mana range, making five the minimum cost for a Double Cast spell (since it's strictly less than). Five mana is an awful lot to ask when most of these spells will probably have effects not worth their cost - in other words, the spell costs more than it should to make it not totally ridiculous because you get two spells out of it.

There's also the problem of flipping a counterspell with one of these.

[Forbiddian]

No, seriously, every doublecast is going to cost a shitton and be crappy. I don't think it would see play, since the ability seems so broken on anything cheap (especially 1cc where you could guarantee certain flips).

Tar Shards so far looks just awful, though. Even if you could guarantee Tar Shards would flip into a Fact or Fiction (you can't without some card combo), would you really pay 3BR for a fact or fiction + small creature pop?

I wouldn't. Fact or Fiction is already too expensive.

Fill your deck up with Tar Shards and Prophetic Bolts, yeah!



I think if there are decently good doublecasts (3cc or less and decent effect), people might play Ancestral Visions with it. Ancestral tagged on seems strong. But if they're all more than 3 or 4, it'd be so hard to guarantee you'd hit anything relevant.

[georgjorge]

Nice catch with Ancestral...I hope that works ("no mana cost" should count as zero there, right...?). Wheel of Fate would be even more broken in the right deck, a 1cc Doublecast had a good chance of drawing you seven cards, while Lotus Bloom would turn that 1cc Doublecast into a Dark Ritual. Mystical Tutor + 1cc Doublecast = draw seven cards for two mana.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

If a decent creature comes with doublecast, then I think that the ability may well find a niche in the format, if aggro-control can make use of that creature. We'll just have to wait and find out.

[lolosoon]

If a decent creature comes with doublecast, then I think that the ability may well find a niche in the format, if aggro-control can make use of that creature.
It sure depends of the power-level of the card, but even if they print :

"DoubleCast Bear" 1G
Rare
2/2
DoubleCast

I dunno if it would see play in decks like Threshold//NLU//CBTopGoyf.dec

Sure, with Top active, any cheap doubleCast spell with any significant effect is tempting, but take some slots to run a bear which Ponder or put Goose (which is less and less played) in play AND put at bottom unneeded lands, I dunno...
Why not just draw and play the Ponder or Mongoose instead of the bear and leave free slots for additionnal control or effective win-cons (and fetch away the undesired lands btw) ?!

Still, I do think they will not print any doubleCast card below 4cc and with poor effects along it (like those ol'Ripple crap).

[Nihil Credo]

If they weren't going to print any cheap Doublecast spell, they probably would not have bothered with the annoying "random order" clause. Doublecast is convoluted and unlikely to be reprinted, and stacking your deck is pretty fair if the drawback is that your whole deck is made of expensive spells.

[scrumdogg]

Thats why you use library manipulation. This mechanic looks like it has some serious potential for storm decks though.

Lim Dul's vault anyone? Set it up and do stupid things? Although this is all smoke & conjecture until we find out whether there are any good cards with doublecast...

[Forbiddian]

Bear with Doublecast would be ridiculous. I'd much rather play that that Tarmogoyf.

[Seriously]

Bear with Doublecast would be ridiculous. I'd much rather play that that Tarmogoyf.


in what deck exactly.


.

[memnarch]

Wow ya for sure this would be good if were to say replace scry in magma jet. It would be strictly better at least in burn. It seems like a very red mechanic to me. maybe black with discard.

edit- I didn't realize it was just any card. that is interesting.

[rufus]

"Doublecast Bear" is a pretty solid card for Zoo. 1G for the bears + an ape, wild nacatl, or bolt. Probably comparable to 'goyf there.

Beyond that, I think decks would want some modification to make it work.

I think it has potential to be really busted in some kind of combo/control deck - perhaps Aluren with enlightened tutors or something.

A more control-oriented deck - perhaps some kind of landstill variant - could play bears and Ancestral Visons. 1G for a 2/2 + Draw 3 cards is pretty solid. (Although, at that point, the body is really just icing.).

There's also Bears -> Hypergensis as an alternative to Show and Tell.

[pi4meterftw]

No, seriously, every doublecast is going to cost a shitton and be crappy. I don't think it would see play, since the ability seems so broken on anything cheap (especially 1cc where you could guarantee certain flips).

Tar Shards so far looks just awful, though. Even if you could guarantee Tar Shards would flip into a Fact or Fiction (you can't without some card combo), would you really pay 3BR for a fact or fiction + small creature pop?

I wouldn't. Fact or Fiction is already too expensive.

Fill your deck up with Tar Shards and Prophetic Bolts, yeah!



I think if there are decently good doublecasts (3cc or less and decent effect), people might play Ancestral Visions with it. Ancestral tagged on seems strong. But if they're all more than 3 or 4, it'd be so hard to guarantee you'd hit anything relevant.

If there were 1cc, forget about trying to hit ancestral visions to "merely" draw 3 cards. Just don't run the visions and stack your deck instead.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You couldnt stack your deck cuz of the random clause.

[eq.firemind]

1cc with Doublecast means: T1 land => Spirit Guide/Mox/Petal/... (depends on card's color)=>Doublecast card=>Mystical Tutor (or just Brainstorm) in resp to Doublecast => Wheel of Fate => draw 7(3-4 storm counters already)=>Oops, you loose.

IMHO this ability can break the format, so I think in attempt to balance it Wizards will make crappy effects/high CMC on Doublecast cards, wich means the cards will not be very playable.

PS Imagine how broken can this ability be in Vintage...

[Sun_Ra]

I can't foresee them printing playable cards with this mechanic.

Fake card example:

Twinsight :3::u:
Sorcery
Twincast
Draw two cards.

This is approximately the highest powerlevel I can imagine them printing with this mechanic. Would storm want to play this card? I wouldn't.

[Pemmin]

I can't foresee them printing playable cards with this mechanic.

Fake card example:

Twinsight :3::u:
Sorcery
Twincast
Draw two cards.

This is approximately the highest powerlevel I can imagine them printing with this mechanic. Would storm want to play this card? I wouldn't.

Twincast is not good in blue decks anyway! Okay lests see: e.g. Play "Twinsight", reveal counterspell...errr....ups...there is only may spell on the stack so I have to counter my own spell. Yeah indeed very nice... :eyebrow:

[rufus]

Twincast is not good in blue decks anyway! Okay lests see: e.g. Play "Twinsight", reveal counterspell...errr....ups...there is only may spell on the stack so I have to counter my own spell. Yeah indeed very nice... :eyebrow:

Actually, the twin goes on the stack first, so it's unlikely to have anything to counter.

[eq.firemind]

Actually, today most :u:-based decks run 4 Brainstorm, 3-4 Ponder and 3-4 Sensei's Divining Top + a lot of shuffle, so Doublecast can be VERY strong in blue.

[KillemallCFH]

1cc with Doublecast means: T1 land => Spirit Guide/Mox/Petal/... (depends on card's color)=>Doublecast card=>Mystical Tutor (or just Brainstorm) in resp to Doublecast => Wheel of Fate => draw 7(3-4 storm counters already)=>Oops, you loose.How is that any more broken than just Ritual->Ritual->Ad Nauseam->Oops, you lose? At least with AN, it doesn't require you to run awful and otherwise dead cards like Wheel of Fate.

[Jaynel]

Twincast is not good in blue decks anyway! Okay lests see: e.g. Play "Twinsight", reveal counterspell...errr....ups...there is only may spell on the stack so I have to counter my own spell. Yeah indeed very nice... :eyebrow:

It's a "may" ability. You can just shuffle it to the bottom if you don't want to play the spell.

[cane]

let's not forget that all cards in the new set are multicolored

[eq.firemind]

How is that any more broken than just Ritual->Ritual->Ad Nauseam->Oops, you lose? At least with AN, it doesn't require you to run awful and otherwise dead cards like Wheel of Fate.

1) You will play this in your ANT deck to have another combo engine
(just replace 5 cards because you already run tutors).
2) On turn 1 it just replaces itself with Mox/Petal/LED for sure, wich means more probability you'll kill turn 2.
3) 1cc Doublecast can give you 2 storm counters and something else just for 1 mana (actually, it'll be Mox or Petal OR LED, so 2 for :0:), so IMHO it's very useful even without Wheel of Fate.
4) That card itself has some effect (IMHO it's too cool even without it).

1cc Doublecast is like Worldgorger Dragon. Useless by itself, but can make some gamebreaking tricks with some other cards/in special decks.

[TorpidNinja]

I can't wait to see the hybrid One With Nothing with Double Cast attached.

[Nihil Credo]

I can't wait to see the hybrid One With Nothing with Double Cast attached.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh91/darcydarlin/Brilliant.jpg

[rufus]

I can't wait to see the hybrid One With Nothing with Double Cast attached.

At 1 CC, it would be overpowered since it can dig up Wheel of Fate - (think Ichorid) or Hypergenesis (which would resolve before One With Nothing) if it's discard as a cost then it's Restore Balance instead.

[Forbiddian]

in what deck exactly.


.

Uh, every deck, but I was mainly thinking Threshold. It'd probably get played alongside Tarmogoyf, but it's just an insane ability and I think there's no doubt it'd be better than Goyf.

You get either: Bear with Ponder. Bear with Brainstorm. Bear with Swords. Bear with Sensei's Divining Top. Crazy good stuff right there.


It's all theoretical, but it seems so stupid to think that even the mighty Tarmogoyf could compete with this. Make a bear. He doublecasts Brainstorm, fetching you another Bear in one of the three cards you draw off of it. You stick back two cards and make another bear next turn. That bear doublecasts the Swords you stuck on top, getting rid of your opponent's pathetic Tarmogoyf.

Every single play with bear is a strict +1 business spell and that's ridiculous. Much, much, much better than just Bear + draw a card, because you'll never get a dead land and even a non-broken flip like Ponder still leaves you with a massive decision tree and net card advantage.

Or just: Turn 1 Brainstorm. Turn 2 Bear out whatever you stuck second. It's like Counterbalance only even more broken since you never "miss" if you're not comboing it. Or you can use it after BS to filter land or any spells that cost 2 or more. Like midgame you Brainstorm, put back a Daze and a Land, then Bear shaving the chaff. Crazy synergy all around.

This card would put Bob to shame. It'd put Goyf to shame. Goose. Probably even Counterbalance (although you'd likely run this bear alongside all that other crap).

And this isn't even sticking it in a deck that breaks Doublecast Bear. This is just any current list of Threshold -4 anything +4 Bears. My point is that card is so monstrously ridiculous. In current lists of Thresh, you'd usually Brainstorm or whatever INTO a Goyf and then you don't even have to choose, you just get all the broken.

I'm sure there are cards like 1 or 0, as an additional cost to play this spell, jump through a bunch of hoops: Make some broken crap happen. You could at least cut out all the 1CC or most of the 1CC and run Ancestral Visions if they printed cheap Doublecast.


That's why I think every Doublecast has to have at least a 4cc sticker. You get to be too specific too easily with this.

And then we all know that if all the doublecast costs 4, it'll be too random/expensive and basically unplayable in Legacy. Although maybe Wizards fucks up, forgets about Legacy, and screws us over.

[morgan_coke]

This reminds me a lot of the "free untap" spells. Where the normal solution to power level issues - raising the cc, creates new problems.

There are a lot of ways this can be abused, even at higher cc's, with top/ponder/brainstorm. In some ways, this is EASIER to abuse if the spell has a higher cc. It makes it harder to set up, but much, much more powerful when it works.

It really all depends on the cards it's on of course, but this has the potential to be incredibly, incredibly swingy and random in actual play. Which is something I thought wizards was trying to reduce.

[from Cairo]

There are a lot of ways this can be abused, even at higher cc's, with top/ponder/brainstorm. In some ways, this is EASIER to abuse if the spell has a higher cc. It makes it harder to set up, but much, much more powerful when it works.


This. Like Tacosnape was saying too the high cost ones have the possibility of being run in control. If the deck is running Top or some Cantrips already it definitely gives the control player some more options in the late game. Definitely all depends on the power level of the ones they release though.

[Forbiddian]

This reminds me a lot of the "free untap" spells. Where the normal solution to power level issues - raising the cc, creates new problems.

There are a lot of ways this can be abused, even at higher cc's, with top/ponder/brainstorm. In some ways, this is EASIER to abuse if the spell has a higher cc. It makes it harder to set up, but much, much more powerful when it works.

It really all depends on the cards it's on of course, but this has the potential to be incredibly, incredibly swingy and random in actual play. Which is something I thought wizards was trying to reduce.

Not really. The spells from doublecast are still limited by having to cost less than the original spell. Otherwise it'd be easier just to cast the original spell.

Whereas you could Frantic Search and untap 6 mana worth of land to generate MORE mana and fuel out bigger broken, you can never generate more off of Doublecast than the original spell, so there's no danger (unless they print a card like 2UU, Untap all your lands, Doublecast or something).

You'd need an effect that's broken on the doublecast itself to make spending an extra mana worth it, and Wizards is unlikely to print that.


Paying 3RB for killing a creature and Fact or Fiction doesn't seem worth it, and the risk of hitting something comparatively useless like a Brainstorm, Daze, or Counterspell makes it even worse.

And Legacy is always going to be limited by the fact that you can just win the game for 3BB if you want to construct a combo deck. Very expensive combo Doublecast cards are not going to be useful in combo or anywhere else.

[TorpidNinja]

The cost issue aside, I'm excited to find out if the trigger templating will remain as spoiled. If you had a low enough cost Double Cast spell (though there seems enough good point to eliminate that) one could reasonably play the cheap Double Cast, tutor up the intended target (Wheel for example) and Remand the initial Double Cast for more tricks later.

On the other hand, Counterbalance.

[undone]

The cost issue aside, I'm excited to find out if the trigger templating will remain as spoiled. If you had a low enough cost Double Cast spell (though there seems enough good point to eliminate that) one could reasonably play the cheap Double Cast, tutor up the intended target (Wheel for example) and Remand the initial Double Cast for more tricks later.

On the other hand, Counterbalance.

I hope you would still play something like

U
Instand
Draw a card
double cast (ancestral)

But seriously I hope there is a single double cast at 1 mana for design's sake if it proves to be OP with ancestral ban it in extended and legacy. Im hoping your right though remand + 1 drop double cast would be saucy especialy since you can draw the remand OFF the ancestral.

But this is probably all going to be big uncastable junk with one 1G double cast 2/1 or 2/2 creature.

[Serin]

As every card in the set will be multicolored, I don think they will print a hybrid U/x draw one with doublecast, would be too versatile and OP...

I don think the remand drawn from Ancestral could be used to target teh doublecast spell, as I understand, the doublecasted spell is played after the spell with doublecast has resolved. Correct me if Im wrong..

[rufus]

I don think the remand drawn from Ancestral could be used to target teh doublecast spell, as I understand, the doublecasted spell is played after the spell with doublecast has resolved. Correct me if Im wrong..

The double is played after, but on the same stack. Since the stack is LIFO (last in first out) the second spell resolves first.

It would be funny to see something like:
Wild Surge
R/G x
Split Second
Doublecast

[RoddyVR]

Split second doublecast would be amazing. Could probably be made broken even if it had no other effect at all.

[sauce]

this is almost as good as Ripple.

[undone]

this is almost as good as Ripple.

Ripple was terribad. This is awsome sauce keworded. Essentialy if any of these are even within a mile of playable (3 mana or less in G or U) they will litteraly be played into oblivion and back.

[pi4meterftw]

Why would split second be amazing on a spell with double cast be amazing? Let's not forget that "can't" effects are defined to overule "can" ones.

[Anusien]

Why would split second be amazing on a spell with double cast be amazing? Let's not forget that "can't" effects are defined to overule "can" ones.
If the two were on the same card, they would write the rules such that the doublecast card could be played. And you'd get a mini-Mind's Desire effect, since the doublecast spell couldn't be countered either.

[bowvamp]

Imagine doublecast on a 2cc. Now imagine a vanilla 2/2, probably of a useful creature type. Fuse those. Anyone want a free brainstorm on your merfolk? How about a free goblin lackey on your goblin? What about a free wirewood simbiote on your elf?

Lesson: free will rock even if the 2cc card is bad.

[Noman Peopled]

I think the mechanic is rather more dangerous in Extended than it is in Legacy, thus unlikely to produce anything wortwhile for us if R&D has any sanity left. They may neglect Legacy, but Extended?
In Extended, it's easier to skip the lower part of the curve without resorting to all-in strategies, especially in control - with the exception Elves, you won't lose t2 (and there's a board for that). A 3CC Balance would still be quite good at controlling the game even if you sometimes draw into your uncastable suspend thingie. Wheel of Fate and others could also be more easily accomodated than in Legacy due to the absence of FoW and the lack of alternative strategies fueled by a buttload of superior Rituals and artifact mana or extremely cheap cantrips and removal.
The double-cast bear presented would pretty much break Extended in half. I'm sure I don't have to demonstrate, but it's fun ;) : When Grizzly Bear comes into play
- draw three cards.
- target player sacrifices all creatures, maybe discards some cards or loses lands.
- put Progenitus and some buddies into play. Shriekmaw's kind of cool. Or Sundering Titan.
- put a Black Lotus token into play.
- play Wheel of Fortune at a discount.
Sure you will sometimes draw the crappy suspend thingy and have to make some concessions, but all those plays strike me as way too good for Extended.




If they weren't going to print any cheap Doublecast spell, they probably would not have bothered with the annoying "random order" clause. Doublecast is convoluted and unlikely to be reprinted, and stacking your deck is pretty fair if the drawback is that your whole deck is made of expensive spells.
Very good point. Hadn't thought of that.
I still have a hard time imagining dc spell with CMC<4 that's neither crappy nor busted somewhere.

[Dan Turner]

I think a {U}{U}{U}{U} Counterspell/Cantrip with doublecast would rock in legacy,without being overly broken. Imagine it in Solidarity.

[Giles]

You guys need to remember that all Doublecast cards are going to be multicolored. So it not just going to be 3U, it will be on the lines of 2UB. Also, because of this there will be ZERO 1cc doublecast spells.
As of right now it is all spectulation, we need to see more than one card to see the true power of this ablity.

[TorpidNinja]

@ Giles: I agree with your second point, but with respect to your first, we've already seen hybrid cards spoiled so we could get 1 CC double cast that way.

I'm curious, regardless of the ability of the spell (so we can eliminate the problem of reactionary abilities) what would be the maximum CC/mana variation you would play this spell? Frankly, if it had U or B in it, I'd probably max out at 3.

[JeroenC]

I'm too lazy to explain it, and I don't know the technicalities, but there will probably be no 1cc cards. Check out this week's Magic Show, Evan Erwin explains it (www.starcitygames.com).

[undone]

R/W G
Creature cat
Double cast
3/1 or 2/2

This, is infact, the nuts and fits right in threshold and I could believe it being spoiled unfortunately as of yet we dont know if any creatures can get doublecast.

[Zach Tartell]

They're calling it "cascade" now over at Salvation.

Just in case.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

There's got to be a way to make it work with Doomsday, assuming they make a remotely reasonably costed card with the mechanic.

[AngryTroll]

R/W G
Creature cat
Double cast
3/1 or 2/2

This, is infact, the nuts and fits right in threshold and I could believe it being spoiled unfortunately as of yet we dont know if any creatures can get doublecast.

Well....it's, what, a 3/1 or a 2/2 for WG, with a Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, or Swords attached to it. Ponder and Top are awesome, Brainstorm and Swords are conditional. What gets cut? Mongoose? Is that better than Goose, who barely makes the cut any more?

[undone]

Well....it's, what, a 3/1 or a 2/2 for WG, with a Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, or Swords attached to it. Ponder and Top are awesome, Brainstorm and Swords are conditional. What gets cut? Mongoose? Is that better than Goose, who barely makes the cut any more?

To me the card is only a bit worse than confidant, in tempo thresh its just the next best creature and it would allow them to play more dudes, a 3/1 that gets

Bolt
Brainstorm
Ponder
Goose

with only 2 cards being dead flips this card is straight up card advantage with tempo attached.

At the very least its better than trygon predator and trinket mage.

I am personaly looking for a

RX (has to be multicolored perferably green)
Deal 2 damage to target creature or player
cascade

EDIT: does any one know if you can cast spells you cascade into reguardless of when you cascade into them? (IE a creature or sorcery at EOT)

[TorpidNinja]

EDIT: does any one know if you can cast spells you cascade into reguardless of when you cascade into them? (IE a creature or sorcery at EOT)

It seems that, as spoiled (so far), the wording is similar to Suspend spells. So either the spoiled wording is wrong or yes, we'll be able to play them at any time.

[Phantom]

If you hit Explosives or Chalice, they will be played @0 though, correct?

[b4r0n]

If you're playing them without paying their mana cost, yes.

[Soldar]

There's a handful of official spoilers out now.

Cascade, or Doublecast, doesn't look like it'll destroy the format. But if they make an XY instant (or sorcery) you could skew your deckbuilding so that it says, "XY: Do something irrelevant, put Sensei's Divining Top into play." Or some other stupid thing.

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/alarareborn/sgr1qw8vrg_EN.jpg

Cascade (When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card that costs less. You may play it without paying its mana cost. Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.)

[Skeggi]

For people who are lazy and don't like to click links:
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/alarareborn/sgr1qw8vrg_EN.jpg

Now that it has been confirmed to be 'Cascade' can a Mod please edit the title of this thread?

[b4r0n]

Orb of Insight is showing 12 hits for "cascade", meaning there may be up to 12 cards (!) with this keyword.

[TorpidNinja]

There's a pretty heavy implication right now that Ardent Plea will have Cascade. So, at minimum, we'll likely have a 3CC Cascade (though the art implies it'll be focused on creatures, limiting it's combo potential.)

[Skeggi]

Cascades casts the very first spell whith a lower cmc than the original spell. It's impossible to have a good deck where you want to abuse a 7cmc cascade spell to cast a 6cmc spell, since it means it'll probably pick up your mana accelleration in the proces instead of the 6cmc spell.

Anyway, here are the two new cards with Cascade:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5240/elfberserker.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elfberserker.jpg)http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3749/sphinxf.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sphinxf.jpg)

Especially the Sphinx seems to be toying with deck manipulation.

[rufus]

Cascades casts the very first spell whith a lower cmc than the original spell. It's impossible to have a good deck where you want to abuse a 7cmc cascade spell to cast a 6cmc spell, since it means it'll probably pick up your mana accelleration in the proces instead of the 6cmc spell.

There is a bunch of top-deck manipulation out there. That said, in legacy, anything that costs 7 should basically have the text "you win the game."

[keys]

Man I was really hoping for a R/G bear with Cascade... Bloodbraid Elf is just meh.

[Artowis]

Lapile's article straight up said that Cascade cards wouldn't go under 3cc. Ardent Plea was also shown to have it based on that 'cascade chain' he posted toward the end, which means every sub-type save land and Planeswalker will be getting a Cascade spell. Basically the amount of abuse left for these cards will be heavily dependent on whether or not they make any of the non-spoiled ones a little too good in the 3/4cc range, but at the moment I'm impressed they managed to not ruin any of the formats yet. Cascade definitely has the potential to be the most broke keyword since storm or 'untap X lands'.

[Skeggi]

So.. Ardent Plea has spoiled:
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm228/Psychatrog/Alara%20Reborn/arb007.jpg

It's very simple: an enchantment costing :1::w::u: and it has Exalted and Cascade. So far the cheapest Cascade spell, and therefor potentially the most powerful one.

Another card has also spoiled:

Maelstrom Nexus :w::u::b::r::g:
Enchantment (M)
The first spell you play each turn has Cascade.

Seems like something a casual deck can go completely insane with, but unfortunately probably won't stand a chance in Legacy.

[Peter_Rotten]

Ardent Plea is almost good in a deck constructed for it. Imagine it in a WW deck: You'll often pay 1:W::U: for an exalted creature. Or maybe you could cast it to give your critters Exalted and put a Jitte in play. Anyway, that enchantment would be awesome if it did more while it was in play. Even if it was just a Crusade with Cascade, it would be better. Or if it gave First Strike and Exalted.

I'm fascinated in the elf too. It's high priced for Goyf-Sligh, but imagine you cast it, you'll either get a free Bolt, Goyf, Jet, or PoP. Maybe you could even use the free burn spell to clear the path for the elf to beat grill. However, you could pay 4 for a 3/2 hasty and a Fanatic. That hardly seems impressive.

[bowvamp]

Or, you use the bloodbraided elf in that burning wish elves list that I saw a while back. That could be good...

[dirtyapes]

I'm fascinated in the elf too. It's high priced for Goyf-Sligh, but imagine you cast it, you'll either get a free Bolt, Goyf, Jet, or PoP. Maybe you could even use the free burn spell to clear the path for the elf to beat grill. However, you could pay 4 for a 3/2 hasty and a Fanatic. That hardly seems impressive.
It could also hit a land that would be a total dead draw but instead it goes to the bottom of your library. That being said, it still seems unimpressive.

[TheCramp]

I'm with rotten, The elf is intriguing. Imagine it in a mid range G/R deck swords of F & I, magus, blood moon, etc. could be crushing.

[Cire]

I just had an idea, it probably sucks a lot but it seams a lot of fun at least.

Basically just keep cycling away big giant creatures, and then play a cascade spell into living end, kill all creatures in play and get out a bunch of giants (and ardent plea for exalted just in case)

A quick list i came up with

4 Blood Braid Elf
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Primoc Escappe
4 Drifting Djinn
4 B/u Cycler….(Didn’t come out yet but it’s part of a cycle…the hybrid 1 mana cycling, probably a creature with a random ability and at least 3 power, but don't bet on it...except that its blue and cycles for 1 and is at least a creature)
4 Street Wraith
4 Monstrous Carabid

4 Ardent Plea
4 Living End
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient tomb
4 Bloodstained mire
2 City of Traitors
2 City of Brass
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Bayoo

The only spell in the deck that can be countered is Living End, as cascade triggers upon playing...

so the deck goes off turn 3 with either
Ardent Plea --Living end (which wraths and gets you at least 2 big creatures)
Blood braid Elf --> Ardent plea --> living end (which wraths and gets you at least 2 big creatures)

again just a humble attempt of how to possibly abuse Cyling...

-----

edit: also using Evoke creatures might be a good idea as well...

[rufus]

I just had an idea, it probably sucks a lot but it seams a lot of fun at least.

Basically just keep cycling away big giant creatures, and then play a cascade spell into living end, kill all creatures in play and get out a bunch of giants (and ardent plea for exalted just in case)
...


Seems like Foil (of all things) could fit. It matches the CC profile, and the alternative cost is discard, not RFG, so it throws stuff into the GY.

You probably don't need 4 copies of livinig end in the deck.

Dimir House Guard (4 cc Transmute) was something I looked at, but probably shouldn't make the cut.

[Skeggi]

Perhaps you need to do this with Ardent Plea alone, so you can put in some 3cc things like Simian Spirit Guide and Elvish Spirit Guide, otherwise you won't do anything relevant until turn 4.

Edit: a new Cascade card has spoiled:

Deny Reality :3::u::b:
Sorcery (C)
Return target permanent to its owner's hand.
Cascade

Edit2: another new Cascade card is rumored to appear, exact details haven't been confirmed yet:

Stormcaller's Boon :2::w::u:
Enchantment (U?)
Sacrifice ~ : Creatures you control gain flying until end of turn.
Cascade

Not exactly format-breaking, but I'm mentioning them anyway :wink:.

[Skeggi]

Two more cards with Cascade are rumored to appear:

Captured sunlight :2::w::g:
Sorcery
Gain 4 life
Cascade

and

Violent Outburst :1::r::g:
Instant (C)
Creatures you control get +1/+0 until end of turn
Cascade

The latter is another cmc3 Cascade spell! Something to keep our eyes on :smile:.


Edit: another cmc3 one! The name is probably a placeholder:

'blocking nono' :1::b::r:
Sorcery (C)
Target creature can't block this turn.
Cascade

[Noman Peopled]

Two more cards with Cascade are rumored to appear:

Captured sunlight :2::w::g:
Sorcery
Gain 4 life
Cascade
So for the cost of 1-3 mana, I gain four life and don't even know what I'm casting? Seems lame. Still, on-color with Ardent Plea. //edit: brainfart. Not really all that on-color.


Violent Outburst :1::r::g:
Instant (C)
Creatures you control get +1/+0 until end of turn
Cascade
This one's interesting. Good thing it's not targeted. I particularly like the colors - ESG and SSG both help pay for the colored part.
The sorcery thing is pretty much unplayable due to being targeted, unfortunately.

[rufus]

With 12 instances of Cascade in the orb, that seems to be it:

Ardent Plea (1UW)
Bituminous Blast (3BR)
Bloodbraid Elf (2RG)
Demonic Dread (1BR)
Deny Reality (3UB)
Kathari Remnant (2UB)
Enlisted Wurm (4GW)
Enigma Sphinx (4WUB)
Maelstrom Nexus (WUBRG)
Stormcaller's Boon (2UW)
Violent Outburst (1RG)
and
Captured Sunlight (2WG) (Rumor)

.
Something that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, is that Cascade should work with split cards since it can trigger on the cheap cc, and cast the expensive side. The best contender seems to be Research//Development.

[Malchar]

I just had an idea, it probably sucks a lot but it seams a lot of fun at least.

Basically just keep cycling away big giant creatures, and then play a cascade spell into living end, kill all creatures in play and get out a bunch of giants (and ardent plea for exalted just in case)

...



Not a bad idea, but why bother using the worst of the cycle of cards with no mana cost? Using a bunch of evoke creatures or things like Tombstalker and Force of Will could be good.

It could also work into a stompy shell, which would allow you to get access to the extra mana needed to support the deck. Basically, just play a deck where things cost 3 or more and toss in some of the cheapest cascade cards. The only problem is that you can't take advantage of trinisphere.

Also, quick question, am I right that the free spell from cascade can still be countered as normal?

All-in-all I'm quite glad Wizards was able to come up with a cool new ability that isn't broken in Legacy for once.

[rufus]

Also, quick question, am I right that the free spell from cascade can still be countered as normal?

Yes. Cascade can also be stifled or trickbound.

[rufus]

I just had an idea, it probably sucks a lot but it seams a lot of fun at least.

Basically just keep cycling away big giant creatures, and then play a cascade spell into living end, kill all creatures in play and get out a bunch of giants (and ardent plea for exalted just in case)


Although your concept is definitely cooler, it may be easier and faster to run with Show and Tell or Eureka. That avoids GY hate, and opens up the ability to play better beef.

4x Eureka
4x Violent Outburst
2x Hypergenesis

or

4x Show and Tell
4x Ardent Plea
2x Hypergenesis

into the usual suspects...

Progenitus
Kederket Leviathan
Empyrial Archangel
Akroma
or
Platium Angel

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I tested some sealdgames and i must say Cascade is amazing in limited!

[frogboy]

I tested some sealdgames and i must say Cascade is amazing in limited!

this.

[georgjorge]

I just had an idea, it probably sucks a lot but it seams a lot of fun at least.

Basically just keep cycling away big giant creatures, and then play a cascade spell into living end, kill all creatures in play and get out a bunch of giants (and ardent plea for exalted just in case)

A quick list i came up with...


Unmask could also fit in there, with Force + Unmask plus the cyclers you're always going to hit disruption. I'd run something like

4 Ardent Plea
2-3 Violent Outburst

3 Living End

4 Street Wraith
15 of the Hybrid cyclers

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask

18 lands
5-6 Spirit Guides


You should be able to find a Cascade spell VERY consistently with all that cycling for one or zero mana...the sideboard would need some pitch spells as well, like Smash or Reverent Silence or whatever.



Is Violent Outburst playable in some Sligh or Elf variant ?

[Cire]

Right now i'm testing this cascade list

4 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask
3 Misdirection

4 Shriekmaw

3 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
3 Ardent Plea

16 Lands

-----

So far in testing, its great against aggro and control decks due to the almost uncounterable nature of the deck. Combo is still an obvious hard matchup... and Countertop decks give you some trouble due to living end being countered by a measly land. Right now im just thinking of sideboards and other stuff that i could put in, but so far its a pretty fun deck..

One quick thing i also thought of is replacing living end with restore balance, and replace the 1 mana cyclers with Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, ect for a more controlly deck...but i think that would end up being too slow..

---

Georgjorge, i think we went the same direction with all 1 (or less) mana cyclers instead of bigger 2 mana cyclers. (usually netting you 9.6 average power instead of the 8.2 by playing eternal dragon and Drifting Djinn) but you went the faster route with spirit guides, while i went more controlling with misdirections and shriekmaw: i think with some more testing though we could move this discussion into ND for more criticism and fine tunning

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.

So i shuffle the pile and put it under my library, but could i take a look on the cards befor i put them back to see the order?.

And whats the best way to do this in mws?

[Nihil Credo]

Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.

So i shuffle the pile and put it under my library, but could i take a look on the cards befor i put them back to see the order?


* After you play an applicable card, you randomly rearrange the other cards removed from the game this way and put them on the bottom of your library. Neither you nor any other player sees the order of those cards.


And whats the best way to do this in mws?

It's tricky, because partial shuffling isn't featured in the software.

What I do is flip all the revealed cards face down, and then move them around the table face down: this is time-consuming and not as good as a software randomization, but it works. If your opponent is paranoid you can hand the flipped cards over to his side and have him perform some shuffling of his own. Then you select them all (draw a rectangle over them), right click, and put them on the bottom of your library.

If you hit a particularly long cascade, you can do the following:

- RFG all cascaded cards
- Shift+drag your remaining library into play one card at a time (the "shift" makes them come into play face down)
- Put the cascaded cards back in your library and shuffle
- Drag the face down cards back on top of your library paying attention to doing so in the correct order (i.e. the reverse of how you pulled them out)

[Anusien]

Pretty sure the play is just put them on the bottom in whatever order and hope it won't ever matter.

[Clark Kant]

I think Bloodbraid Elf is the best cascade card in the set by far.

I would actually play it in any aggro deck that could support it.

[Clark Kant]

Fantastic idea Cire. And I think your take on it has potential too rufus.


Right now i'm testing this cascade list

4 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask
3 Misdirection

4 Shriekmaw

3 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
3 Ardent Plea

16 Lands

-----


One quick thing i also thought of is replacing living end with restore balance, and replace the 1 mana cyclers with Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, ect for a more controlly deck...but i think that would end up being too slow..

---

Georgjorge, i think we went the same direction with all 1 (or less) mana cyclers instead of bigger 2 mana cyclers. (usually netting you 9.6 average power instead of the 8.2 by playing eternal dragon and Drifting Djinn) but you went the faster route with spirit guides, while i went more controlling with misdirections and shriekmaw: i think with some more testing though we could move this discussion into ND for more criticism and fine tunning

Dude, that list is EPIC. :eek:

I actually like Gorgejorge's lists use of Spirit Guides a lot. They speed up the deck a lot, by letting you cycle multiple cards early on and ensure that you get your hands on a cascade spell by turn 3.

Seriously, once you guys test it some more and finalize a list, you should absolutely post it in the N&D Forum.

Snuff Out is another option for the sideboard against aggro and aggro control decks, not that you need the help against those matchups, but it's still nice to have.

I don't recommend going the control deck route. It seems too slow. But if you do go that route, Krosan Tusker is good cycler for controllish decks too, getting both a card and a mana fixer for you.

[Cire]

Dude, that list is EPIC. :eek:

Seriously, once you guys test it some more and finalize a list, you should absolutely post it in the N&D Forum.

Snuff Out is another option for the sideboard against aggro and aggro control decks, not that you need the help against those matchups, but it's still nice to have.

Krosan Tusker is good cycler too, getting both a card and a mana fixer for you.

lol, i actually did start testing it a little, and i already posted it in the N&D forums as 'Cascade End' go their and help out developing if you have any good ideas :) lol
---

Were pretty good against aggro decks and decent with aggro control- so snuff out isn't really a problem. also Krosan Tusker is too slow IMO, as you want to combo out 3rd turn, and if your going to wait it out, then there are better cycling creatures like eternal dragon.

[Arsenal]

Got back from Sealed, played Naya. OMFG,, Cascade is disgusting. Probably not in any other format outside of Limited, and maybe Standard, but it's amazing. And fun. Like, fun-fun. Bloodbraid Elf is just retarded.