Public Zones and handling of cards

[Arsenal]

If a card is in a public zone, is my opponent allowed to physically touch my cards? I'm reading rule 507 re: controlling another player's turn (the closest thing I could come up with to my situation), and nowhere does it say the opponent physically touches the controlled cards, it merely states the opponent is able to see applicable cards and make any legal decisions.

The problem is this; a guy in my local group looks through my graveyard non-stop. Like, every time I have another card go into my graveyard, he physically takes my graveyard then looks through each card.

Normally, this is not a problem, but lately, he's gotten really rough with my cards. Like, on the verge of bending them. When I asked he not touch my cards, and ask me to show him anything he needs, he replied that since the cards are in a public zone, any player has physical access to them. I wasn't sure if he got this info from a rulebook, and I couldn't find anything that definitively states one way or the other.

I don't really care what my opponent does normally; he can make all the noises he wants, do anything that he needs to do, but when it comes to damaging my property and possibly marking cards so I can't even use them, I draw the line there.

[KrzyMoose]

He does have the right to look at your graveyard at any time.

However, I have two comments about your situation.

One, if this person does look at your graveyard "non-stop", and as often as you describe, then I'm 98% sure this guy is guilty of some form of Slow Play.

Two, while he has the right to look at and physically touch your graveyard, you also have the right to request that he refrain from bending the cards/handling them in a manner that would damage them.

[Anusien]

As a judge, I'm going to be skeptical of any request that your opponent not touch your cards. "He's physically damaging them" is probably a good reason.

What about laying your graveyard spread out on the side of the table where he can look through without touching it?

[Arsenal]

I do that actually. I stack my graveyard cards vertically, so that the card name and artbox is clearly visible. He still wants to physically scoop up the stack, sift through them, then put them back.

He's a good opponent with competitive decks, and I enjoy playing against him, except when he wants to touch my cards. I don't know if he intentionally is trying to bend them, but everytime I've asked him not to touch my cards and ask me to show them to him, he replies that he can physically touch them because they're in a public zone. I can't find anything in the rules about that.

[Wereodile]

I always ask before touching any of my opponents permanents and I do agree if they constantly ask to view your graveyard and don't bother to write down the cards I would get a little upset, though you say this person is a good player so it may just be force of habit.

We have a player here that constantly "assists" you with your turns but increasing counters on permanents etc. I have a friend who is a very deliberate player and a pretty even keeled guy he almost came across the table at this guy.

It's a touchy subject on both sides as some players like to arrange things a certain way and like to have their opponents have things arranged a certain way.

[Sims]

I've never been to a large enough event outside of some 50ish person legacy tourneys and a few 30ish player pre-releases so I've never really had this issue come up in a place where I'm going to get DQ'd for this, but I don't let people touch my cards without asking unless I know who they are.

If someone asks what a card does in play I will turn it and show them so they can read it, and I will gladly divulge the contents of my graveyard or face-up RFG zone and even write it down for them if they don't take their own notes, but the cards I am playing with are my property and I have the right to not let a player grab my graveyard and look through it every turn, regardless of their intent.

If the judge wants to check playability of something, or a friend of mine wants to sift through my yard or something, fine. I trust judges to do their job and I trust my friends enough to not screw up my cards, but I will not allow someone I don't know or don't trust to touch my cards at all for fear of damaging them, screwing up graveyard order, dropping one for the ol' "deckcheck! i think he's playign 59!," or in some shady cases (with players I thankfully never see) stealing them.

Call a judge on me, get me DQ'd for unsportsman or something, I really don't care if the DCI banned me for it... If I don't know you and don't trust you, you're not touching my deck.

[sunshine]

He may have access to public information but the physical cards are still your property and if he is damaging them then you're outside the realm of game rules and it becomes more of a legal issue. If someone was bending my power/dual lands/whatever that's not cool even if the rules did allow him to look at them. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the rules don't make any mention of physically touching cards for a couple reasons. First, the rules should be compatable with non-physical interfaces (i.e. Magic Online). Second, the cards themselves are only physical representations of the game state - so he may be 100% entitled to know what is in your graveyard but that does not imply he has the right to physically touch your cards. At least that's what you might be able to argue.

[Finn]

You do not have to let a person physically touch your cards. Even with an effect like Mindslaver, the opponent can direct what happens with your cards, but he never has permission to touch them unless you say so. When you get Extirpated, feel free to hold the cards while the opponent looks through them.

I'm totally with Sims, nobody touches my shit w/out my express permission.

[Seriously]

Call a judge on me, get me DQ'd for unsportsman or something, I really don't care if the DCI banned me for it... If I don't know you and don't trust you, you're not touching my deck.

seriously. I would break someones hand if they started bending my cards. I dont even like to handle my own cards and always touch them from the side like photos, unless they are in sleeves.

it sounds like its starting to fall into two catagories. he is either a) careless and doesnt pay attention, at which time you shouldnt let him touch your cards. or, b) he is intentionally ignoring your request to not be so rough, and that makes him an asshole and you shouldnt let him touch your cards.

so, I dont know, its a tough situation. either call a judge, dont play against him, or ask to see his cards and start bending them.

[Anusien]

You can't completely disallow your opponent from touching your cards (absent some huge corner case type concern that needs to be brought up with a judge) because they're allowed (and in some cases) obligated to shuffle your library.

If this is a concern, set aside your graveyard and separate each card so he can see them. Lay them out the way you'd lay out permanents in play.

[thefreakaccident]

I remember a ptq situation last year where this guy thought I was being too rough w/ his cards and almosta attacked me just b/c I was 'shuffling too hard'...

It's not my fault you decided to foil out an entire extended deck for a few ptqs buddy...


I always pile shuffle and then (riffle?) put them into two stacks and push them together several times, then present it to be cut... whether it is mine or his.

[Arsenal]

I think I'll take some of your advice and just not play with him anymore. Like I said, he's a fairly good opponent with many competitive decks, but we're not friends or anything, so it's not like I'm going to lose a buddy.

It seems all I can do is ask him not to touch my cards, and if he refuses to honor my request (which has happened already), the only recourse I have is to simply walk away and not play him anymore.

Thanks for the advice guys, although I would like to know if he is correct in citing a rule; it seems ambiguous in interpretation and nothing definitive has been found re: physical touching of cards in public zones.

[Afro]

I always pile shuffle and then (riffle?) put them into two stacks and push them together several times, then present it to be cut... whether it is mine or his.

I would NEVER riffle shuffle an opponent's deck. EVER. It doesn't matter if I know them or not. I riffle my own cards but they are my cards and I don't normally care about damaging them. At big tournaments I wouldn't dare because many people have Beta/Jap Foil stuff that is worth too much money and just not worth getting their feathers ruffled. Have some manners next time and ask first.

[cdr]

Thanks for the advice guys, although I would like to know if he is correct in citing a rule; it seems ambiguous in interpretation and nothing definitive has been found re: physical touching of cards in public zones.

There is no written rule. Handling your opponent's cards is part of the game though, and like Anusien said, unless your opponent is doing something particularly untoward, there's no reason he can't handle them.

[Sims]

There is no written rule. Handling your opponent's cards is part of the game though, and like Anusien said, unless your opponent is doing something particularly untoward, there's no reason he can't handle them.

Sure there is. Outside of Shuffling/Cutting after search or presentation, or taking control of a creature, there really is no reason the opponent should be touching your cards at all. Property argument aside, if someone is constantly and very often (every turn or so) checking my graveyard for no reason and grabbing said graveyard to do so, then it's going to annoy the hell out of me: See the argument about asking your opponent to stop flicking his cards, tapping his foot/fingertips on the table, etc..

If someone can ask me to stop flicking my cards when I'm not even making audible sounds, then I can ask someone to stop handling my cards without cause.

For the record: I try to keep my graveyard fanned out a bit whenever possible or relevant, and make it easy for view when they are looking or asking about it, but there is no reason that whatever information the opponent is looking for cannot be achieved without him physically touching my graveyard.

[cdr]

You just said pretty much what I said.

[Master Shake]

I only allow my opponents to touch my cards when presenting the deck to be shuffled/cut and when a card specifically allows them to touch my cards, such as "Fact or Fiction." I cannot seperate the cards into two piles for them, as much as I would like to.

You also need to be careful when trying to limit your opponet's access to handling your cards becuase when an opponent uses an effect such as Extirpate, if you look at your own library, there is a penalty associated with that.


As a judge, I'm going to be skeptical of any request that your opponent not touch your cards. "He's physically damaging them" is probably a good reason.

Personally, I would be more conerned that someone is insisting on being able to handle their oppoenet's cards.

I always fan out my graveyard so that they man see it (generally its laid out vertically) and I always insist that a random method of determining what cards are picked for a random discard (Generally assigning each card a value and having the die rolled by one of us.) And then after the card is detemined, I reveal it and discard it.

[Anusien]

You also need to be careful when trying to limit your opponet's access to handling your cards becuase when an opponent uses an effect such as Extirpate, if you look at your own library, there is a penalty associated with that.
Looking at your own library while resolving an opponent's Extirpate is not an illegal action. It would be very difficult to shuffle your library if you couldn't look at the faces.

[Arsenal]

Looking at your own library while resolving an opponent's Extirpate is not an illegal action. It would be very difficult to shuffle your library if you couldn't look at the faces.

I was under the impression that you could not look at your cards (faces) as you shuffle your library. When I side shuffle, I make sure not to hold my library so that the card faces are facing me, but rather, to the side (so my opponent cannot view the faces either) cradled in my hand.

[Skeggi]

I would NEVER riffle shuffle an opponent's deck. EVER. It doesn't matter if I know them or not. I riffle my own cards but they are my cards and I don't normally care about damaging them. At big tournaments I wouldn't dare because many people have Beta/Jap Foil stuff that is worth too much money and just not worth getting their feathers ruffled. Have some manners next time and ask first.

I actually rifle shuffle my opponent's decks when I want to shuffle them. Normally I just cut though, but sometimes, when I don't trust it, I prefer to shuffle. I chose to perform a rifle shuffle because it's the faster than pileshuffling. I prefer it over 'traditional' shuffling because that's basically cutting alot, and if you do it fast to make it worthwhile, chances are a few cards pop out and reveal themselves, getting you a warning or a caution.

To my knowledge, rifle shuffling doesn't damage the cards, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?

[cdr]

I was under the impression that you could not look at your cards (faces) as you shuffle your library. When I side shuffle, I make sure not to hold my library so that the card faces are facing me, but rather, to the side (so my opponent cannot view the faces either) cradled in my hand.

You shouldn't be looking at the faces while shuffling, but you're allowed to look at the cards in your deck when something lets you shuffle your deck. Any shuffles you make while the faces of your cards are visible do not count as shuffling, of course.

[Jaiminho]

To my knowledge, rifle shuffling doesn't damage the cards, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?

Riffle shuffling damages the card. Every card with centered vertical creases on the top has been damaged because of excessive bending, caused mostly by riffle shuffling. Just like these:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8237/p1000226.jpg

[Seriously]

Riffle shuffling damages the card. Every card with centered vertical creases on the top has been damaged because of excessive bending, caused mostly by riffle shuffling. Just like these:



is that what those lines are from ? I bought a flooded strand off ebay seller CHAOSGENE and it had bad creases like that on it. as well as other nicks/scrapes on the bottom and up the sides. it was supposed to be EX/NM, but obviously it wasnt. I wrote the guy and he said there was nothing wrong with the card. so I sent him photos, at which time he denied that was the card he sent and said the photos must be from another copy of the card I owned. needless to say I had to file a paypal dispute, which I won.

[Peter_Rotten]

@OP: If I were you, I'd go with one of these two methods:

1. Simply ASK him to be careful with your cards. Make it seem like it's your fault. "Hey, I don't have a problem with you looking at my yard, but I'm wicked anal about my cards. Can you handle them carefully, please?"

2. Give him a taste of his own medicine. Whenever he asks to look at your yard, ask to look at his. Then handle his cards in the same manner that he handles your cards. I'm sure he'll get at least slightly annoyed if everytime he looks at your yard, he has to hand over his. Like my pops used to say, "What's good for the goose, is good for youse toose."

[scrow213]

I find that I commit to memory better when I handle the cards myself. That being said, I always politely ask to see the graveyard, and handle the cards like they are unsleeved Japanese foils. I am very (read: insanely) careful with my opponent's cards, because I would expect the same, and because they don't belong to me.

Perhaps just say "Hey, please be careful with my cards. You can look through the graveyard and still be gentle with my property at the same time."

[conboy31]

As pretty much mentioned I would try 1 of 2 things.

Grab his GY everytime he is interested in yours or during his turn following the turn he looked at yours. Take similar time and measures.

Or, get a piece of paper and simply write down each card that goes into your gy of which he can freely grab and read. So long as you are not playing ichorid or loam your gy shouldn't be more than 5-15ish cards.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Why has nobody mentioned the classic method?
Works best if you have your cards in a sleeve.

Dilemma: You do not want to give said item to person.
Solution: LICK IT!!! and then ask if they still want it.

[Deviruchi]

@about shuffling:

I received an answer that I should ask politely my opponent to be careful with what he/she is doing but I cant do anything if he/she tell me that its just the way of shuffling to be sure deck is randomized... So just play WB and leave pimp cards at home ?

@about graveyard issue:

When psychatog decks were everywhere in t2/extended it was very common to look into the graveyard, count cards and so on. It is ok with me IF they ask before they touch my cards. Maybe its just me but I think its rude to pick someones graveyard. I saw only few rulings about slow play in Tog matchups. People were complaining about this but what to do if your opponent wants to be sure... ?

[scrow213]

You have to let them see it. You can ask them to be gentle with your cards, or perhaps speak with a judge about the handling of your property. I think (may be wrong) that the judge can handle randomization in place of your opponent.

As for the graveyard, I always politely point at the yard and ask to look at it. Explain to him that he is being too rough with your cards and you will have to find a judge if he can't be respectful of your possessions.

[Jujuhawk]

I think (may be wrong) that the judge can handle randomization in place of your opponent.

You can definately do this, Gadiel Szleifer made the judge shuffle for Willy Edel because Edel is scummy, and it was at Columbus 04 I think.

[cdr]

A judge can shuffle if there is a good reason, but you better have a very good reason.

Similarly, a judge can tell your opponent not to handle your cards, but you better have a very good reason to ask.

[Jujuhawk]

A judge can shuffle if there is a good reason, but you better have a very good reason.

Similarly, a judge can tell your opponent not to handle your cards, but you better have a very good reason to ask.

How good of a reason? Previous infractions for shady shuffling, or what?

[cdr]

If you convince the judge that you are genuinely concerned (and have reason to be), rather than that you're just being a jerk.

In the Gadiel situation, Gadiel was being a jerk as much or more as being genuinely concerned. I suspect the judge agreed to shuffle just to smooth the situation.

It's very rare for someone to request a judge shuffle instead of their opponent (as I would hope it would be), and even rarer that a judge will agree.

[Jujuhawk]

If you convince the judge that you are genuinely concerned (and have reason to be), rather than that you're just being a jerk.

In the Gadiel situation, Gadiel was being a jerk as much or more as being genuinely concerned. I suspect the judge agreed to shuffle just to smooth the situation.

Oh, he's a complete jerk, but Edel made some pretty scummy plays against him at charleston, so he's almost justified.

[Raindown]

I would NEVER riffle shuffle an opponent's deck. EVER. It doesn't matter if I know them or not. I riffle my own cards but they are my cards and I don't normally care about damaging them. At big tournaments I wouldn't dare because many people have Beta/Jap Foil stuff that is worth too much money and just not worth getting their feathers ruffled. Have some manners next time and ask first.

I agree, at my local shop I never see riffle use on another persons deck no matter how cheap it is. Not even those players who do riffle perform that shuffle on other persons decks.

[Phoenix Ignition]

At the prerelease after I beat a guy with Elspeth he decided the best way to shuffle my deck was riffle 10 times both the short way and the long way.

I had just cut his deck, but when I saw him going nuts on mine I decided to give him a taste of "lets bend the fuck out of each others cards pretending to randomize them." Needless to say, game 3 we both just cut like civilized people.

[ChiiMagic]

I never ever riffle shuffle decks, whether it's mine or my opponents. I think it's just more respectful to not risk damaging their cards whether they care about them or not. Most of my opponents usually do the same as me, and just cut the deck, and jam them together like 5 or 6 times. Even when my opponents go to perform a riffle shuffle which bends the hell out of my foils, I usually stop them and politely ask them not to shuffle that way because it bends the cards really badly. I've never been as unlucky as you and had an opponent not respect my respect. I think I might get actually angry though and definitely call a judge to have him deal with the situation before. It seems like a personal insult to handle somebody else's cards roughly especially if they've expressly asked you not to. This situation would make me want to be a dick to this person outside of the game. It would certainly cause me to immediately have contempt for my opponent wherever that would lead.

[Malchar]

@OP: If I were you, I'd go with one of these two methods:

1. Simply ASK him to be careful with your cards. Make it seem like it's your fault. "Hey, I don't have a problem with you looking at my yard, but I'm wicked anal about my cards. Can you handle them carefully, please?"

2. Give him a taste of his own medicine. Whenever he asks to look at your yard, ask to look at his. Then handle his cards in the same manner that he handles your cards. I'm sure he'll get at least slightly annoyed if everytime he looks at your yard, he has to hand over his. Like my pops used to say, "What's good for the goose, is good for youse toose."

Both of these are extremely passive-aggressive. I would discourage such behavior. In general, someone should always ask before touching any of your cards. If they still are rough with them, then flat out tell them that it bothers you. If they still do it then talk with the store owner or stop going there. There's no reason to let annoying/sloppy players continue to damage expensive cards.