[ICD] Kitchen Finks

[MTG-Fan]

I'm curious: what do serious Legacy players think about Kitchen Finks?

It's 3 mana for a 3/2 that basically gives you anywhere from 2-4 life, depending on your opponent's removal and creatures. In the recent Standard season, it played a somewhat prominent role in the 5 color control decks which made use of Finks as a buffer against aggro and a sometimes beater.

Does the card deserve to play a prominent role in the Legacy format, however, or is it underpowered compared to the larger cardpool of creatures available to Legacy players? What is the general consensus on the playability of Finks in competitive Legacy decks?

And do you guys think it deserves a spot in the list of top 20 creatures ever printed? If not, Top 30, or even Top 50?

[Bardo]

Well, 3 mana for a 3/2 that gains some life in Legacy is, well, a 3 mana for a 3/2 that gains some life.

There's your problem.

[MTG-Fan]

That's exactly what I was trying to explain to someone on another forum. It's very underwhelming as far as creatures go, because the lifegain is not a disruptive enough/game-changing enough effect to justify the 3 mana cost and small body. But some Type 2 players I'm discussing this issue w/ are convinced that it's one of the top 20 creatures ever printed. I happened to disagree and wanted to ask what people familiar with the whole cardpool (i.e. Legacy) truly thought of it.

[jthanatos]

It is a good card, but very much a niche card to play in legacy. Loxodon Hierarch is almost always better, but Finks is useful for decks that either need time to go off (though there are better cards for that use), or can abuse the persist mechanic, via cabal therapies or other beneficial sac outlets.

I know I have seen decks run it, but whether it was the right call, even over cards like spike weaver, I am not sure. I have never built a deck where I wanted to run it, and I build some janky decks.

[AngryTroll]

Even if it is one of the best 20 creatures ever, (there's a thread about that somewhere), most of those don't see play in Legacy either. I think Finks will find (or has already found) a home in a few decks, but I don't expect to see him alongside Goyf, Dreadnought, and Dark Confidant any time soon.

[4eak]

I didn't like the card at all when I first saw it. After playing against it many times, I've changed my mind. It doesn't suck. I still don't like the card (because I generally don't like playing the decks in which he belongs), but I'm going to give the card its dues.

Assuming it doesn't get StPed (your opponent is usually thinking: "who the fuck would 'waste' an StP on that?"), it is a pretty good card. The persist effect makes this card fairly unique, and used correctly, it is a form of card and permanent advantage. Also, the card is actually fairly efficient for the mana cost.

With a sacrifice effect or lethal damage (not hard to imagine), Finks is essentially:

2cc for a 3/2 and +2 life
1cc for 2/1 and +2 life

It isn't Tarmogoyf (obviously), but it is far from being a bad card. Both of the above creatures are very cost efficient. The problem is that you don't get both effects at once (3cc for 5/3 and +4 life, or 3cc for both creatures at once would savage).

Decks that can abuse the permanent-based card advantage of Finks will find it very effective. One of the best cards that work alongside Finks is Cabal Therapy (making Finks a natural Rock card). Finks also slows down aggro, tremendously, usually buying 1 or 2 turns himself from the life gain and 2x blocks.

His card advantage comes in the form of attrition, often trading with other creatures. I've seen Finks 2-for-1 many times.

Fink's lifegain effect, while it appears small, has swung a lot of games. Decks that otherwise would not have been able to run any lifegain at all (to combat Thoughtseize, burn, or whatever) gain extra utility.

I have to admit, the card is good in semi-aggressive forms of The Rock. He breaks the symmetry of cards like Deed and Therapy, he can play defensively, and after board clearing, he helps to convert a deck form the control to aggro role.

Is he top 20 material? Maybe. Does that really matter in a format with Tarmogoyf? Not so much. He is a slow card for the advantages he offers.





peace,
4eak

[Centurion]

The problem with Kitchen Finks is that a 3/2 with some lifegain isn't that useful. Look at Rhoxodon War-Monk for example: here you have a 3/4 for three mana (the color restriciton is easy with fetchlands and duals) and repeated lifegain, nd even this creature isn't seeing play (though I think it will eventually). Someone could argue that the Finks dodges removal, but honestly the only presently played removal that hits at Monk and not Finks is Snuff Out and Edict, annoying to be sure, but those decks' creatures can easily dela with a 2/1.

If I wanted to supplement my beaters with a three-drop, I'd use the Monk, Clique, Predator, Burning-Tree Shaman (who I think is primed for a burst in popularity, as his ability hurts Sower and Shackles decks even if they steal him) before the Finks.

P.S. As for the "top 20 creatures" question, I'm not going to argue this, though I feel that Finks is over-rated due to his hybrid mana, which is far less relevant in eternal formats.

[Apex]

Finks are fine, they work well with sac effects like above mentioned, and is a very Rock-y/Survival-y card. Therefore, it should qualify under the 2nd category.

I don't think it's in the top 20, but it's quite good. I would play this over Darkheart Sliver (depends on deck), and maybe Loxodon Hierarch depending on the situation (Finks can chump an additional time before I need to Volrath Stronghold/Genesis it back, so that frees up mana to do other stuff, like...Stronghold/Genesis other stuff).

[Carabas]

You can't judge 'in the top 20' because it matters so much for environment. Goblin Welder is really, really good, and I've heard vintage players claim he's the best creature ever printed.
I don't think I've seen a competitive non-vintage list with welder in it.

Finks can be good in the right setup (few RFG removals, 3/2 power for 3 being a reasonable cost/power ratio, and so on.) I don't think he's a good legacy guy.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think Finks is underrated in Legacy right now. As we saw at Chicago B/G/x counterless-control is solid in the format right now, and Finks is solid in those kinds of decks. It's all about generating a little card advantage here and a little card advantage there. People talk about Plow like it's omnipresent, but it's not. Against say, Canadian Thresh, Finks is a serious roadblock.

That 3 front end might not be impressive in comparison to Tarmogoyf, but you can't run 12 goyfs in a deck and Finks compares favorably with the old standby green beater, Troll Ascetic. It's not as much of a pain in the ass to get rid of as Troll Ascetic, but it's also less mana intensive, which can be important.

Is it format defining? Is it "Morphling in Keeper" good? No and no, but it *is* a very solid creature, and definitely makes my list of cards that are playable in 1.5.

[MTG-Fan]

I see alot of posts here echoing the sentiment that it is a "solid" creature that could definitely fit into some decks.

However, are those decks competitive, and is Finks really good enough to edge out other choices in any given deck? A cursory examination of the deck listings that include Finks from deckcheck.net tells me that the only decks running him are Survival or Rock. Neither of these decks showed up in the upper tiers of the recent Chicago tournament. Is Rock even still decent?

Also, It seems to me that most of the decks generally recognized to be the "best" in the format (Standstill variants, CounterTop, Goblins, Merfolk, Ancient Tomb-based Stompy, AdNauseam, Threshhold) all have better options to run in his place or simply do not need him at all:

- Standstil variants (Dreadstill, Landstill, etc): Playing Finks is pointless because they only want to whore out manlands or Dreadnought.

- Merfolk: He's not blue so he can't pitch to Force, he's not a merfolk, and his ability does nothing for this deck.

- Ancient Tomb Stompy variants: They'd rather spend the mana on bigger fatties and equipment, or more disruptive effects.

- Ad Nauseam: It's a combo deck with no creatures. No need for Finks, ever.

- CounterTop: They have Tarmogoyf and Shackles. Countertop lock will stop most burn / aggro decks anyway. I don't think any of the NLU/CounterTop players would ever consider Finks?

- EvaGreen/SuiBlack variants: They use their Ritual mana to power out Dark Confidants, Tombstalkers, Specters, and other far more efficient creatures than Finks will ever be.

- Threshhold: They have enough creatures already that are better than Finks by a mile. Werebear, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Mystic Enforcer, etc.

- Goblins: No reason whatsoever to play Finks, ever.

So, in summary, all of the decks generally recognized as "most competitive" would just laugh at the inclusion of Finks. 3 mana for a 3/2 that gains some life? Pales in comparison to most of the other creature options in this format that do so much more for less mana (Tombstalker, Confidant, Goyf, Werebear, Mishra's Factory, Meddling Mage, Dreadnought, Negator, etc), and some of the decks don't even want to play creatures.

I mean, I really can't see why you'd want to run Finks in any deck that's remotely competitive in this format. Even Rock must have better dudes it can play, right?

[Apex]

I don't think you can just disregard Rock variants and Survival decks like that. Rock/Survival variants are always really solid and pretty much always hover around DTW status.

And I also don't think it's fair to compare how good Finks are in ANT/Goblins/Merfolks. I mean, do we talk about Ringleader/Warchief outside of gobbos, or Narcomoeba outside of dredge? No. Certain creatures fill out certain roles in certain decks. Kitchen Finks are good in Rock/Survival, no need to see how good it is in ANT/Gobbos, it's never going to be played in those decks anyway (heck, even Tarmogoyfs aren't played in ANT/Goblins).

In Survival/Rock variants, Finks could play a solid role, filling in as Therapy fodder, chumping an additional time before needing to be brought back from the grave, leaving you with a 2/1 body after you blow the Deed, etc. It's a decent dude, but not like it's format breaking or anything. Hence the "It's pretty efficient for a creature. It could probably find a home in one or two archetypes." poll option.

[MTG-Fan]

So you're telling me there are no creatures in the vast Legacy cardpool that can do the job better than Finks in the Rock builds with Cabal Therapy?

I mean, gaining 2-4 life is so underwhelming. Wouldn't you rather run a more powerful creature in the 3cc slot in any given deck?

[4eak]

@ MTG-Fan

Your deck comparisons were fairly pointless. Survival and The Rock are the only decks where Finks can be played, and nobody said otherwise. Less strawman, please.

Your questions about Fink's viability have really boiled down to a question you ask several posts later:


Is Rock even still decent?

Yes.

The Rock is a solid archetype (oh snap). Like its cousins Survival and Landstill, The Rock is an amorphous deck which is capable of evolving at a much greater pace than most of the decks in a format. The viable card selection for this archetype is absolutely enormous. The Rock has a wide variety of roles it can play, and for many of them, Kitchen Finks is a good card for the deck. Seriously, what other competitive deck can play 20 creatures and 3-4x Pernicious Deed in the same fucking deck?

Kitchen Finks is a strong choice (of which there are many) in semi-aggressive forms of The Rock.

Yes, The Rock defies logic. It looks like a random pile of shit. It just might even be a random pile of shit. But, if you play against the archetype enough, you'll see it does have game against a lot of decks. Never count it out. The deck is ubiquitous and depending upon construction is capable of answering pretty much any other deck.

The Rock isn't the best deck in the format, and Kitchen Finks isn't the best card in The Rock. Despite their limitations, both the card and deck are acceptable options in competitive Legacy.





peace,
4eak

[MTG-Fan]

4eak:

1.) Are there not any better choices for a 3cc creature to include in The Rock than Kitchen Finks? Are there not creatures ~3cc with more relevant abilities than merely: Persist and "gain 2-4 life"? If not, why is gaining a little bit of life and chump blocking so important? Wouldn't it be better just to run a fatter dude for that 3 mana?

2.) So if Finks does indeed fulfill a vital role in The Rock, why is that role absent from other powerful archetypes that have placed recently? Why can't the lifegain be relevant in a EvaGreen, or a Threshold, or somesuch deck?

[4eak]

@ MTG-Fan


Are there not any better choices for a 3cc creature to include in The Rock than Kitchen Finks?

It depends on the role you're looking to play with The Rock. You wouldn't play Kitchen Finks in every Rock build.

Remember that control decks (including aggro-control) are designed against a specific metagame, and like Landstill, The Rock is very malleable. You build specific Rock decks for specific metagames; that means card selection will vary upon the metagame you are trying to answer.

This is why I was so specific in defining Kitchen Finks as a card to be used in semi-aggressive builds of The Rock.

Middle of the road Rock decks which seek to abuse Cabal Therapy and Deed, anticipate facing burn/sligh/UGr Thresh, need resilience to board removal, or effectively use the 2-for-1 attrition trades against opposing aggro decks can make solid use of Kitchen Finks.

Kitchen Finks can be a strong anti-aggro card, he breaks the symmetry of control cards like Therapy (good against a lot weaknesses) and Deed, and he does all of this as a well-costed beater. Does he hit amazingly hard? No. But, he's playing a lot more roles than just a straight win condition.

Remember that he's only one of many viable options in a deck that only has one obvious creature to play (Goyf). There is a lot of leeway for how you fill out the rest of your creatures (more leeway than you'd ever see in other decks). Kitchen Finks is just another viable Rock card that creates tempo and card advantage.

Even if it isn't the goldstandard by any means, Deckcheck shows Kitchen Finks as the 12th most played card in The Rock (out of 141 decks). It at least seem like he has reasonable tournament results to call him a Legacy-playable card. With more practice and experience piloting or piloting against the card (and decks that use him appropriately), I think you'd agree.


So if Finks does indeed fulfill a vital role in The Rock, why is that role absent from other powerful archetypes that have placed recently?

If I didn't answer your question already: Finks isn't necessarily playing a 'vital role', just a viable role in certain Rock decks.

He wouldn't see play in EvaGreen or Thresh because they aren't playing the same role as The Rock w/Finks would play. Eva Green's disruptive and suicidal role differs completely from that of many Rock decks which use stronger board control. Thresh on the other hand doesn't use even remotely similar control cards that can be abused with cards like Fink, and because of its cantrip engine, has little room for more than 12 win conditions. The Rock gains card quality and advantage through other means, and because it doesn't run 8-12x cantrips, it has more room to play a card like Finks.

As I said, Finks doesn't belong in anything but the Rock and certain types of Survival (Survival-Rock, whatever). The fact that it doesn't see play in other decks doesn't mean a whole lot.




peace,
4eak

[Soldar]

2.) So if Finks does indeed fulfill a vital role in The Rock, why is that role absent from other powerful archetypes that have placed recently? Why can't the lifegain be relevant in a EvaGreen, or a Threshold, or somesuch deck?

It's not necessarily just that the role may absent, it's a matter of manabases.

Eva Green is Suicide Black, with green for a supplementary color - It's splashing for Tarmogoyf, and whatever else they want that doesn't have more than a single G in the mana cost (Krosan Grip, and less often Pernicious Deed and Choke).

Threshold operates more base blue, with green for ways to actually win the game. UGw Thresh can run a basic forest, and has the closest chance of reaching double green, but can run Rhox War Monk if they need a creature that can survive the combat step and gains life. War Monk also pitches to Force of Will, whereas Finks does not.

And trust me, I've considered Kitchen Finks for a few decks, but when it comes down to actually casting him, there are only a set number of decks with creature-plans that can support it - going through some lists:

Death and Taxes - doesn't necessarily beat down or disrupt your opponent enough.
Aggro Loam - The creatures in here are seriously picked over; I'm an Aggro Loam player myself, and while it does survive Dreams, it doesn't do enough afterward.
Aluren - Doesn't do enough.

Survival -
The Rock -

And others know more about these decks than I do, so I'll let other people talk about those two archetypes.

[klaus]

I'll quote myself from the Landstill thread, we discussed the life gain slots in the LS archetype (basically Ajani VS Pulse VS Finks). I opted for Finks as a SB choice. Here are my arguments:



["Mossivo, claiming Pulse of the Fields would be superior"...]

I disagree on several levels:
- as Konsultant mentioned the overall mana investment of POT fields (alone) makes Ajani way better.
- it's not viable as a 2-3 of in the SB. It is viable in WishStill as a one-of, then again I consider the Wish board a dated LS approach.
- Another downside: Pulse is only really effective if you use it multiple times, obviously - as opposed to Finks and Ajani the Burn/Sligh player can burn himself in response, possibly countering the crucial "buyback".
- there's some more counter arguments (blaa..lol)
---

I'm pretty sure a final judgement on Ajani VS Finks is hard to determine.
In the end it depends on your metagame as well as the SB strategies your opponents employ. I want to highlight some of my insights nevertheless:
The MU where lifegain matters most (aka. the most common MU where we face lots of burn) is >>Sligh<<.
I've made the experience that Ajani is too slow here at times. PoP being the decisive factor. Also, pumping Ajani to 5 doesn't guarantee us having our opponent invest several spells to burn him out - one swing with Tarmogoyf (or Nacatl+Kirdape/etc..) is often enough to knock him out for good.
Needle was also mentioned as a wide-spread solution, I think.
---
Finks on the other hand comes down a turn earlier (which can actually be quite important). In the Sligh MU it not only serves as pure lifegain, you can view it as a combination of lifegain and creature removal, since it block-kills any guy but Goyf. If you employ simple math to calculate and compare the relative lifegain in such scenarios, you will have to account for the lifepoints you saved by potentially decimating your opponents creatures, too.

That being said, I've tested and liked Ajani, no doubt, but I came to the conclusion that running more than 2 eats up too many SB slots - then again running merely 2 obviously diminishes the chance that you'll see him - I lost some aggro/sligh games because he simply didn't show.
Finks on the other hand can be run as a 3of or even 4of for that matter.
The reason for that is quite straight forward: It's simply more versatile making it a viable boarding choice in more MUs. Hell, it's even alright against Combo.dec (well if compared to Ajani, of course).
Here are some more:
- (Aggro) Loam
- Rock
- tribal decks
- Zoo

Finks even allow us to replace that Eternal Dragon slot and that 3rd Decree/Else slot in the MD (making up for the diminished beatdown plan).

I could come up with some more pro Ajani arguments but I guess I'll leave that up to the rest of you, I'm a lil lazy right now.
-
Klaus

[mercenarybdu]

Works nice in a Survival prototype, coupled in with Recurring Nightmare to card effective.

Works in a small handful of decks, but not a lot which is a good thing for consturction purposes.

I know nobody wants a blowout creature, and neither do I.

[MattH]

Another nice card that isn't worth trying as long as legacy remains Goyf.format. :/

[MTG-Fan]

I see alot of replies that basically say, "It's an efficient creature that's decent in one-two archetypes."

Why is it even efficient? It's 3 mana for 2-4 life and a chump block or two. How is this efficient at all? Why not run one of the many other creatures that give you far more for your investment, like Dark Confidant, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf(obviously), Doran, Thoctar, Negator, Werebear, etc etc. I don't have time to list all of the creatures in the format which are better cost/reward ratio, but I'm sure it's pretty long.

Or why not just run some more removal? Why bother chump blocking enemy creatures if you can remove them or steal them? There just seem to be so many options for more powerful strategies than a 3/2 that gives you a little bit of life, imho.

Why should Finks ever be run in any deck, at all?

[rockout]

I see alot of replies that basically say, "It's an efficient creature that's decent in one-two archetypes."

Why is it even efficient? It's 3 mana for 2-4 life and a chump block or two. How is this efficient at all? Why not run one of the many other creatures that give you far more for your investment, like Dark Confidant, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf(obviously), Doran, Thoctar, Negator, Werebear, etc etc. I don't have time to list all of the creatures in the format which are better cost/reward ratio, but I'm sure it's pretty long.

Or why not just run some more removal? Why bother chump blocking enemy creatures if you can remove them or steal them? There just seem to be so many options for more powerful strategies than a 3/2 that gives you a little bit of life, imho.

Why should Finks ever be run in any deck, at all?

If you need a utility life gain slot that plays well with board sweepers then he fits nicely. All those creatures you listed don't gain you any life.

[Apex]

I don't get your problem with Finks.

"Why should Finks ever be run in any deck, at all?" There are like a bunch of answers right above your post, with everyone basically saying the same thing: the number 2 option on that poll.

As for why some decks would run him over others, well, let's just work your list:

From rock builds, would I run these over Finks?

Dark Confidant? I don't want to recur a 2/1 that eats up life while I'm facing more aggressive decks.
Tombstalker? Really? How likely am I going to recur this guy? He even eats up relevant graveyard resources.
Tarmogoyf? Can't get away with running more than 4. If I could, I probably would win more matches (that is, until my opponent resolves that Extirpate).
Doran? Legendary 3 for 5/5 that makes goyfs a bit bigger and isn't better against aggro than Finks?
Thoctar? Even worse than Doran.
Negator? Wtf, who plays with Negator these days anyway?
Werebear? Now we are just stretching it.

Now just for shit and giggles:
Goblin Warchief? Man, 3 mana for a 2/2 haste in my rock deck? What a total gimp!
Ichorid? God, I have to remove black creatures only to get a 3/1 back for 1 turn? I can't even remove dead Birds?

You see, you can't compare deck specific cards across the spectrum, it just doesn't work like that.

As for removal, you can't Volrath's Stronghold/Genesis removal back, and removal spells don't sac to Therapy, and they don't hang around as a 2/1 after you deed the board, they can't chump Tarmogoyf and gain you life, they also can't be Survival-ed out from your library.

The only cards in competition with Finks in rock/survival are Darkheart Sliver and Loxodon Hierarch. Some decks like Sliver, because he sacs on activation for free, therefore, can easily negate jitte counters for example, or get rid of bridges (not like that happens alot though). Some decks like the elephant, because he is big (can sac on activation, for mana though), but he costs more, so it takes more mana to recur and cast in the same turn when you are chumping goyfs, whereas Kitchen Finks can be casted once every 2 turns, since he persists back. So when you are just chumping and looking for your EE/Deed, Finks gain you the same amount of life, but chumps an extra time, therefore Finks would buy you more time.

Or maybe you are just trolling, I don't know, but I'm not sleepy right now and I wanted to type some stuff. Oh well.

[puppektion]

Why should Finks ever be run in any deck, at all?

How about in the Rock, with Cabal Therapy?

Bg or Bw control decks could use it with Innocent Blood Bone Splinters or Smallpox without giving up the tempo of losing a guy.

He survives board wipe cards: Wrath of God, Damnation, Mutilate (and infest, pyroclasm)

He helps out Recurring Nightmare (hey, i might even try this one out)

[MTG-Fan]

I don't get your problem with Finks.

"Why should Finks ever be run in any deck, at all?" There are like a bunch of answers right above your post, with everyone basically saying the same thing: the number 2 option on that poll.


Well, I find it underwhelming as a 3/2 for 3 mana, and lifegain is really not all that useful in such small chunks in a fast format. I'm trying to discuss the card with some other people right now and want to formulate an argument as to why the card really isn't good enough for a faster / more diverse format like Legacy.



As for why some decks would run him over others, well, let's just work your list:

From rock builds, would I run these over Finks?

Dark Confidant? I don't want to recur a 2/1 that eats up life while I'm facing more aggressive decks.


Alot of Rock decks run Bob... search deckcheck.net for Bob in Legacy and you'll see some Rock builds in addition to other decks. His draw ability is just that good.



Tombstalker? Really? How likely am I going to recur this guy? He even eats up relevant graveyard resources.


Again, check deckcheck. He's a 5/5 flier for 2-3 mana typically. THAT'S efficient. Rock decks run this guy all over the place.



Tarmogoyf? Can't get away with running more than 4. If I could, I probably would win more matches (that is, until my opponent resolves that Extirpate).


Touche.



Doran? Legendary 3 for 5/5 that makes goyfs a bit bigger and isn't better against aggro than Finks?


Better than a 3 for 3/2...



Thoctar? Even worse than Doran.


5/4 > 3/2 that gives you a few life points....



Negator? Wtf, who plays with Negator these days anyway?


Not so good in an aggro format, but much better against control decks. Maybe I should have mentioned Nantuko Shade instead...



Werebear? Now we are just stretching it.

Now just for shit and giggles:
Goblin Warchief? Man, 3 mana for a 2/2 haste in my rock deck? What a total gimp!
Ichorid? God, I have to remove black creatures only to get a 3/1 back for 1 turn? I can't even remove dead Birds?

You see, you can't compare deck specific cards across the spectrum, it just doesn't work like that.



You can compare the efficiency level of various creatures. And alot of the creatures I mentioned can, and do, fit into Rock builds.



As for removal, you can't Volrath's Stronghold/Genesis removal back, and removal spells don't sac to Therapy, and they don't hang around as a 2/1 after you deed the board, they can't chump Tarmogoyf and gain you life, they also can't be Survival-ed out from your library.


Why bother with Therapy now that we have both Duress and Thoughtseize? This is, honestly, something people need to think about. And we all know 2/1s with no special ability are so useful, right? And why chump Goyf if you can just RFG him with a removal spell, or block him with a bigger fatty? etc.

In a format full of RFG removal, a 3 mana 3/2 that gains you 2 life just seems... weak. I don't see why it should ever be considered for any role in any deck, to be honest. I'm trying to see why people love him so much both in Standard, and (seemingly) here on The Source in their Legacy decks.

[4eak]

@ MTG-Fan


Well, I find it underwhelming as a 3/2 for 3 mana, and lifegain is really not all that useful in such small chunks in a fast format.

Are you implying there are larged-chunked lifegain cards which are useful in this format? If so, feel free to tell me which cards do that. Otherwise, just say you don't think lifegain matters.

I do think Life gain matters, it's just hard to find mana efficient life gain. Life gain is just one good aspect of the defensive qualities to this card. The card is consistently useful, even if it isn't ever amazing. The card, by all initial appearances is underwhelming (I thought so too, before I actually played with and against it); experience will show you otherwise.

He might just be a tier 2 card, but most creatures that aren't Tarmogoyf are tier 2. This card wins small. He is a solid building block to the role he plays.


Alot of Rock decks run Bob... search deckcheck.net for Bob in Legacy and you'll see some Rock builds in addition to other decks. His draw ability is just that good.

...if deckcheck is any indicator for viability, then what are you arguing about?

Kitchen Finks is more popular than Bob in The Rock. His "persist" and "life gain" abilities are "just that good".


Again, check deckcheck. He's a 5/5 flier for 2-3 mana typically. THAT'S efficient. Rock decks run this guy all over the place.

Deckcheck doesn't even show Tombstalker in the top 18 cards played in The Rock. Kitchen Finks is the 12th most played.

As to tombstalker himself: He is efficient for the role he plays. He also has much more conditions to playability than Kitchen Finks. He is a mid-late game card. He is a win condition, and not so much a defensive, CA-generating card in The Rock.


Why bother with Therapy now that we have both Duress and Thoughtseize? This is, honestly, something people need to think about.

Why not run both effects? Thoughtseize/Duress often give the information advantage for Cabal Therapy to abuse. Therapy is an excellent anti-combo card, and with either the information provided by Seize/Duress or abusing persist on Finks, Cabal Therapy often 2 for 1's your opponent.


I'm trying to see why people love him so much both in Standard, and (seemingly) here on The Source in their Legacy decks.

Puh-lease. I don't think anyone here "loves" Finks as irrationally as you've implied. The vast majority have chosen #2 as the poll response -- that appears to show that we think it is a viable option, not the 'wtfpwnbbqsauce'. We've given you honest reasons why he can be a viable card in a few decks. You don't seem to be listening very carefully.

After re-reading this thread, I'm not sure you're objectively searching for truth at all. It appears that just want some ammo, rational or not, about why you don't like the card.






peace,
4eak

[Ectoplasm]

Here's the breakdown, in short:
Finks is a small creature that's hard to get rid of, which nets you some life AND slows down beats.
That's pretty much what the card does.

Decks that want to slow down the game to their own pace, such as the rock, play cards that help slowing the game down. Finks slow the game down. So play finks if you want to slow the game down.

Multiple finks pretty much means game against something like goblins, being a goblinplayer myself I can honestly say I hate those little fuckers. I once played a guy who gained life off of his finks 9!!!!!!!!! times and this involved knocking them off with a sharpshooter, running piledrivers into them and seeing them returning off of eternal witnesses, and right when you think you've had it all he plays a new one.
Once you're in a position like that, there's not alot of chance you're going to win because guess what, the rock-player has slowed the game down to the pace of his own deck and is making the decisions while you're taking the backseat, waiting for him to execute you. All of this because of some annoying creatures which allow him to stay alive long enough to do so, by getting him some life and jumping in front of your men.

[overseer1234]

I think fink can be pretty good in the right deck, bot for now I'lm still sticking to ravenous balloth since not getting hit by STP become's pretty relevant in a rock like deck (and unlike a 3/2 a 4/4 puts on a pretty good clock+nobody expects it...)

Obviously some people are going to compare it to goyf and stop there because goyf is obviously better in terms of power/CMC (however deeding for 2 does let you keep your finks while goyf dies)

Also whith it's CMC=3 it does a pretty good job at getting past CB+top.

Another thing is that in comparison to goyf finks is such a pain against deck that try to win in the early game, so a T2-3 finks can buy you the time (+ deed the board/survival for an answer) where a T4 balloth/hierarch would be to slow, and a goyf would just stop 1 creature and do nothing against the rest+the burn that follows...


I personaly find it to be a pitty that some people still compare every other creature to goyf even while most of the time the creature is in the same deck as goyf but has a TOTALY diferent function in the deck.

[sauce]

i ran finks in my rock variant a while back. its a great creature.. first it acts as a tarmogoyf blocker for 2 turns, 2nd, i can flashback cabal therapy, sacrificing finks and get 2 life and my dude back while raping their hand.

its really good if you play it w/ cabal therapy and it does get around cbtop most of the time.

3 mana for 4 life and 2 turns to find deed/vindicate seem alright to me.

[Phantom]

I haven't seen anyone mention it's awesome synergy with equipment. When all you need is a warm body to throw a Jitte on, having a creature that dies twice and stalls with lifegain seems pretty sweet.

Also, is there really any mystery to the cards power level? It's a boderline card that fits into a few archetypes fairly well.

[Carabas]

I think one of the things that makes him better in standard is that Swords (or Path, in standard's case) isn't as prevalent as damage/destrution based removal. Persist isn't as hot when a good amount of removal stops it from triggering.

[Giles]

It's one of the top 20 creatures ever printed... of course it's NOT good enough for Legacy!

It is one of the best life-gain creatures for sure. But life gain is not a viable effect in legacy.
I guess it is cool at chumpping.

[Skeggi]

Kitchen Finks may be the answer against Aggro. They're very good in stuff like The Rock or RGBSA.

[beastman]

I say its a pretty efficient creature. it works so well with therapy and natural order. Also, it is probably one of the best cards to have against goyf sligh.

[MattH]

Finks is a great solution...to a problem that doesn't exist: little weenie men. If, like, Sligh and 9-land-green were around, Finks would be a superstar. But they aren't, because they suck. Thank you Goyf, CBalance, and EE.

[SpikeyMikey]

I personaly find it to be a pitty that some people still compare every other creature to goyf even while most of the time the creature is in the same deck as goyf but has a TOTALY diferent function in the deck.

It's the same reason that everyone assumes that every deck packs 12 StP's. Or at least, that's what it sounds like from the "it'll just get plowed" responses you often get.

Not every creature in the format is Tarmogoyf. The long and short of it is, Finks will trade with anything other than Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker(think Goblins/Zoo critters) and gives decks that would otherwise struggle heavily with fast strategies a chance to get out in front and win. Against Gobbos, Finks is killing two things. Against Zoo, it's probably killing 1 thing and soaking a burn spell. Persist is just a good ability. It's costed heavily, like double strike, but if you can find something that's playable with persist, go for it. If Murderous Redcap were a 3/2 for 3, he'd be playable too.

Matt: I disagree. I wouldn't say that fast aggro is format defining or even heavily played, but it does have a presence, and it can do well. CB decks will usually roll over and die to fast burn oriented decks if they don't have SDT/CB by turn 3. You're not going to see heavy play of cheap aggro decks because there are very few good players that want to play aggro, but even a bad pilot can just win games sometimes. If you go to a big tournament, you can expect to see at least one of the following: Landstill/Zoo/Burn/Goblins/White Stax. Like everyone else, I'm not saying Finks is the be all and end all of the format, but I do think it's a borderline card that has to be considered as a playable.

[overseer1234]

It's the same reason that everyone assumes that every deck packs 12 StP's. Or at least, that's what it sounds like from the "it'll just get plowed" responses you often get.
Yeah same thing I was thinking.

If you opponent's going to plow the finks but not the confidant (or goyf, tombstalker, hierarch,... whatever...)next to it, then by alle means, play fucking 4 just to keep your other good creature's alive (or at leas in the graveyard for stronghold and stuf :D )

[MattH]

Not every creature in the format is Tarmogoyf. The long and short of it is, Finks will trade with anything other than Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker(think Goblins/Zoo critters)
And Phyrexian Dreadnought, and everything in Dragon Stompy, and anything that flies, and Lord-ed up Merfolk or Elves, and any 2/x first striker (not that we see much of that lately)...


Against Gobbos, Finks is killing two things.
I question the skill of your goblin opponents if they're actually trading two real creatures for a Finks; when I was testing the FinksSurvival vs goblin matchup, it was so much better, and not very difficult, to Gempalm the first one and then try to trade any of your 1/1s for the remainder. Finks is okay here, not spectacular, because goblins, unlike other red decks, doesn't much care about lifegain until you're gaining 10+.


I wouldn't say that fast aggro is format defining or even heavily played, but it does have a presence, and it can do well...but even a bad pilot can just win games sometimes.
Please don't bring up what MIGHT happen; let's talk about what is actually most likely to happen. Show of hands: who is actually scared of Zoo while piloting a blue Tarmogoyf/CB deck?

I've tried Finks, and he was all right, but not great; he simply didn't give back enough value, because he DOESN'T trade very well with a lot of things (two Factories can keep him from attacking, for instance). Like you said, borderline.

I really wanted Finks to be good, but he's just a half-step behind the curve. There's a LOT of good solid guys I want to play with, but which just can't hack it right now (Quirion Dryad comes to mind, as do Wall of Roots/Blossoms and Masticore). I just can't think of any situation where Finks is actually GOOD except against Zoo and zoo-like decks, and those simply aren't matchups that any deck needs to spend card slots shoring up, because 1) zoo isn't very common, and/or 2) zoo isn't very good.