U/W Painter Stone

[baghdadbob]

So I spent a long time getting the funds ($) for this deck and its still in the works. I see the red painter everywhere along with the black blue painter with the confidant. I on the other hand wanted to take a different approach to this. I took the combo (2 card combos are awesome) and put it inside of a control shell. I would appreciate all comments. I'm new to the site this is my first post, and I'm not even sure if this is the right place to put this! lol! So without further ado here is the list...
The Deck
3x Painters Servant
3x Grindstone
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Isochron Scepters
3x Counterbalance
4x Orim's Chant
4x Force of Will
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshare
4x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
2x Academy Ruins
Tenative about the amount of Plains to Islands Ratio...
The Side Board
4x Disenchant
4x Echoing Truth
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Wrath of God
1x Engineered Explosives
So there's a few things going on here. Since this deck runs heavy amounts of artifacts academy ruins can save my butt. Counter balance-top is another nice 2 card combo fully searchable with my enlightened tutors. The 2 Isochron scepters with either counterspell... orim's chant... or swords to plowshare...or even enlightened tutor works great. Alot of people have told me to take it out but I think the 2 of is working wonders. I would more likely take out the Counter-top combo before that. Usually I play one of the other 2 combos first that way the opponent wastes there Krosan Grips, Disenchants or counters in the first 2-3 turns. I can respond but I prefer to hold my counters for backup when then unexpected second or third combo comes out. These hard lock down combos are great and fully regenerative with my academy ruins. With 7 mana I can almost win and this deck has what it takes to get there. Generally turn 7 will be...
Tap 1
Orim's Chant
No responses? Good. Force of will/daze/whatever else... I have the counter for via Counter-top, Counter or another Orim's chant on a stick or any counter in hand.
Tap 3
Painters Servant/Grindstone
Tap 3 Win the game.
Tell me what you think for improvement... in either mainboard or side. I am unwilling however to splash any other color this is strictly a blue white build.
THANKS EVERYONE!!!

[baghdadbob]

Tap 1
Orim's Chant
No responses? Good. Force of will/daze/whatever else... I have the counter for via Counter-top, Counter or another Orim's chant on a stick or any counter in hand.

Part of this is wrong the stick doesn't help in this situation with only 7 mana... I must rely on force of will in hand... or the the counter-top.

[Forbiddian]

Rtfm. You have two posts, one starting a thread and the other one bumped your own thread with copy/paste from your OP. That's gotta be a record.


Anyway, with 4 Brainstorms, you probably want more fetchlands than just 4. Whatever you choose for Islands vs. Plains, I'd cut Islands for Deltas and/or Plains for Heaths.

With four Enlightened Tutors, you should probably stomach playing some 1-of bombs. With two Academy Ruins, I can't see how you're not trying to abuse EE in the maindeck at least with one copy. Also no Moat? It seems that you'd like to dive for that card a few times off of ET.

Your deck runs enough combo elements that you probably want to run Ponder as well.



But bottom line is that "turn 7" is no longer a good turn to try to do stuff in Legacy and hasn't been for a few years. I don't want to write your deck off too soon, but Swords and Force of Will are really not good answers to the creature strategies by themselves.

To me, it seems like Painter's Grind was the start of the deck's foundation, but that in order to protect it, you've had to bend over backward into this control shell. If you can stabilize the board well enough AND resolve a 2-card combo, then you could have won with any win con. Tarmogoyf and Sower or Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon just seem like better win cons at that point. In short: What does Painter's Grind offer you after you take out the acceleration so you can no longer get a surprise win?

Sad to say, but Tarmogoyf invalidated Painter's Grind as well.

[baghdadbob]

I'm not sure what RTFM means like I said still brand new to the sight... I'm sure it wasn't very nice though. I do appreciate the feedback. As far as "Turn 7 not being a good turn to do things in legacy" this deck always makes it to the 7th turn and I always seem to have the upper hand with the ability to force my painter/stone combo via another combo or the pretty good size amount of control. I will play test Moat and I'm not sure what I would drop for ponders. Comment back on the sideboard if you want. Also for the record I was not "bumping" my own thread I was just trying to correct my mistake. :wink: HAHA! Just saw that whole edit button there... I can see why you thought I was "Bumping". I was just not wearing my glasses sorry!

[baghdadbob]

Ok so I reworked this deck a few times because as it turns out it just did not have enough creature control to take it all the way. I went out and purchased a single moat (80$ jeez!) and a few other cards. It now preforms very much like a control deck but with the power of white removal. In my previous list I removed Orim's chant and put it in the side board, because as it turns out its not that good unless there's an isochron scepter for it to be imprinted on, or against storm. This is my new list and I will explain my choices after...
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Negate
* 2 x Sower of Temptation
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 1 x Moat
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Wrath of God
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 10 x Island
* 6 x Plains
* 3 x Grindstone
* 3 x Painter's Servant
Painter servant and Grindstone are a 3 of scrictly because drawing more then 1 of each is bad. 1-2 of is not enough due to artifact hate. There are very few things that "protect" the combo but a 2 of academy ruin works really well in my opinion. Back to basics I borrowed this idea from a mono blue deck it shuts down mishras factories and all those beta dual lands people dropped a mint on. It is great against anything but monoblue and red. Problem here is that it still only gives my academy ruins a 1 of regenerate kinda deal with it in play. I'm still thinking of a better option for this predicament, any ideas? Brainstorm is good in here because I have little card advantage and being able to pop it after I tutor is good as well in a pinch. Force of Will is obvious. Sower of temptation is great because A) Gives me an alternative win. B) Flies over my moat. C) Steals creatures D) Cheaper then veldalken shackles. Swords to plowshare is an obvious as well considering I'm not really worried about my opponents health. Wrath of God as a 2 of is good because it can a) kill anything getting over moat b) kill anything that avoids spot removal c) clears away zoo. d) if they kill sower of temptation, i will have backups. Seeing as I have a bunch of creature control counterspell and negate 4 of takes care of anything else, with force of will to back it up. Enlightened tutor works really was to because it finds moat, grindstone, painter's servant, and back to basics. Was thinking of dropping 1 for a mystical tutor to find wrath of god in a pinch. Let me know what you think, it certainly seems to flow quite well on paper.

[Forbiddian]

I like the 3x Back to Basics.

That wasn't in the first list, but it wrecks a lot of unprepared decks.


Since you're running it, I'd switch Negates with Mana Leaks or Spell Snare. I haven't seen this suggested in a long time, but Mana Leak is always a strong counter early game, and late game you'll at least have a crack at resolving Back to Basics to make Mana Leak matter again.

You can hop on Magic Workstation (free DL) and playtest your deck a bit before you buy it.

[Master Shake]

I think that Vedalken Shcakles is going to be a lot stronger in this deck than Sower of Temptation. Its cheaper by a single mana and isn't reuseable but is veurnable to removal.

I'd probably rework the deck a bit personally so that I could use Eternal Dragon + a few tundra + Back to Basics.

I think that losing Scepter - Chant is going to hurt a lot as it flat-out beats a lot of decks.

Negate doesn't seem that strong and it seems to me that you really want Counter-Top to protect your Painter's Servant from an untimely decision to take up farming.

[baghdadbob]

I'm not sure I would put eternal dragon in here. Yes he's one of the best white creatures, but you shouldn't play him in every white deck ever... he's not tarmagoyf. I agree with you about losing the scepter-chant. What would you say is a worthwhile trade out? Counter-Top to protect your Painter's Servant from an untimely decision to take up farming... I assume your talking about krosan grip? Fortunately for me painter doesn't drop till late game after they wasted there krosan grip on my moat and my back to basics with me holding swords or wrath for there creatures. I'm not sure about counter-top it works but is running 3 different 2 card combos worth it? Its alot to set up and stick. Look at my previous list.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Wouldn't Trinket Mage fit better here than Sower of Temptation? Gets the card now as opposed to your next draw, allows for even more of a toolbox with EE, Pithing Needle, and other such cards that can be run as a 1-of.

Also, it costs 3, which is out of range of Chalice, and can grab EE to blow up the chalice without it getting countered.

I don't like Scepter here as your argument is that its good against storm, but it's handled easily by storm and anything else that it's good against via bounce and/or K. Grip, which, honestly, most people run religiously any more. That or Trygon Predator.

Also something to try would be more Wraths (in the board) and looking into Oblivion Ring. This is because stuff like Pithing Needle, Runed Halo and Wheel of Sun and Moon are all problematic cards for the combo, but nothing I saw in your list can handle them once they resolve. Even Cunning Wishes that can grab the removal you need would be better than no option at all. Just something to keep in mind.

I like the mana leaks over counterspells if you are set on running B2B as the double blue will be more difficult and less certain to get if you aren't able to run Tundras and fetches. In a more CB and tempo-infested meta I would certainly switch to Spell Snares.

One more thing, Ghostly Prison is just as good as moat when used in tandem with B2B. It's also cheaper and screws over stuff like Ichorid, Zoo, and EtW on it's own. I can see them solving your Zoo problems much more efficiently than Wrath of God as they are proactive in nature, being able to drop them earlier (I'd look into Mox Diamond as a good way around Back to Basics, but still accelerating your mana early in the game). The only problem with that is that you have to run more lands.

This feels a lot like fish with a combo win, I like it.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Thanks for your comments Dark Cynic I thought about what you said and I have tweaked the deck quite a bit tell me what you think about these new changes I think this might be the final go through unless I get some sort of enlightenment...

* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Isochron Scepter
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 2 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 3 x Brainstorm
* 2 x Propaganda
* 2 x Sower of Temptation
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 1 x Moat
* 3 x Orim's Chant
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 8 x Island
* 8 x Plains
I'm still trying to make room for oblivion rings... any suggestions folks? Thanks again for your help...

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think this is no where near done. The list is too jumbled. It needs some finessing, because I'm quite sure you want more than 2x B2B. I think you should rely a lot less on Enlightened Tutor.

3x Brainstorm is absurd. 4x is necessary for any blue list that benefits by running them. 2x Propaganda in a 60 card list, that's 1 out of every 30 cards, I don't understand statistics yet, but I'm pretty sure your chances of hitting one by turn 4 is extremely slim, which is when Goblins wins. Even worse, though, is that you are using Propaganda instead of Ghostly Prison. Pyroblast is used by goblins, and I assure you that they will side them in against you. If you do happen to hit a Propaganda, games 2 and 3 I can assure you they will eat a blast.

I'm beginning to think that Intuition would be better than the Tutors. Why no Trinket Mage? I understand it doesn't grab Painter's Servant, but other than that I see no reason not to test it. 0-Rings are better than WoG in the maindeck as they act as mono-colored Vindicates, and WoG isn't good in every matchup. O-Ring seems to be. I think the Moat isn't as good as Ghostly Prison. You can drop it so much faster and don't require a double color.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

I built a version of this a while ago, except it added in Dreadnought/Stifle, which was maybe going a little too far. I like this deck - it looks like it's got some serious potential.
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

3 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Orim's Chant
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Moat
1 Wipe Away

[baghdadbob]

Alright I've been doing some tweaking, and this is what I came up with based on replies.

* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 3 x Ghostly Prison
* 3 x Oblivion Ring
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 2 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Mana Leak
* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 8 x Island
* 8 x Plains

What do folks think?

[baghdadbob]

Last and final version of this deck. I'm going to the next tourney to try it out. Wish me luck folks.
* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Isochron Scepter
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Spell Snare
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 2 x Ghostly Prison
* 1 x Moat
* 3 x Oblivion Ring
* 2 x Orim's Chant
* 2 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 8 x Island
* 7 x Plains
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[Phoenix Ignition]

Last and final version of this deck. I'm going to the next tourney to try it out. Wish me luck folks.
* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Isochron Scepter
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Spell Snare
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 2 x Ghostly Prison
* 1 x Moat
* 3 x Oblivion Ring
* 2 x Orim's Chant
* 2 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 8 x Island
* 7 x Plains
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

I think the 2x Orims chant are too random. Yes you might hit them with Isochron, but that's a long shot and I can imagine you'll top deck it wishing it was a StoP. StoP on a stick is huge too, so you might want to consider just going 4x StP instead.

Also, why ghostly prison instead of propaganda when you're playing more islands and using FoW. I'm sure there will be times you wish you could pitch it to FoW.

[Dark_Cynic87]

In a metagame infested with Pyroblasts and REB's (Goblins, Imperial Painter, storm, etc.), Ghostly Prison is a better choice. As we know, as long as you have 14 other cards that are blue, FoW is playable, and if you have that many blue cards, it's irrelevant if a card pitches to blue and should not be a legitimate reason to argue that you should play the blue version of a card simply based on that fact.

I would definitely drop the 2x Chants for the full set of StP. The Scepters, while I understand you want them, are a bad choice and will never satisfy you. I think Intuitions would serve better in those slots. You can grab:

2x Stone/Servant
1x Ruins

1x Stone
1x Servant
1x E. Tutor

1x Stone
1x Servant
1x Ruins

3x O-Ring

etc., and always get what you want, or you can grab all three of the piece you need and win from there. It also grabs literally anything, not just enchantments or artifacts, letting you get lands, StP's, anything you want. I think it's a much better 2-of than Scepter as it will always be something you can use. Also, it's a tutor uneffected by Chalice, which certainly helps. Against Prison lists you can screw up their mana denial strategy by tutoring for 3x B2B's or Oblivion Rings to get around their turn one Chalice @ one, which would otherwise end your game completely by knocking out your E. Tutors.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Thanks guys your really are helping me out. I have been play testing this deck to the max this past week or so. A few things I came across that I think should be noted. THIS DECK NEEDS DAZE. Yes I tried and tried but the deck simply loses counter battles with anyone running red blast or daze. I play back to basics they play force of will, I play force of will, they red blast it or daze it. I've been running it with the dazes' and it has been performing alot better. Well it's usless late game isn't it? Naw it still pitches to force of will so it's all good. =) I made some more tweaks to it and this is what the list look likes.
* 1 x Engineered Explosives- works great with academy ruins, is search able in a pinch.
* 3 x Grindstone- combo piece
* 2x Intuition- (thanks dark cynic!) play tested with this and it works friggin wonders. find anything I need my sixth tutor in the deck.
* 3 x Painter's Servant- other combo piece makes all my cards pitch able to force of will.
* 3 x Back to Basics- shuts down alot of decks. can side board it out for some beastly lock down cards when playing mono blue and goblins.
* 4 x Daze- Alot of play testing made me realize I need this card. I simply lose counter wars without it.
* 4 x Force of Will- Obvious.
* 4 x Mana Leak- Still unsure if this should be spell snare... or counterspell... But in a multi color deck the odds of using this early are better then that of a counterspell.
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor- Can find almost anything in my deck with this. combo pieces prisons, moat, o-rings, e.e., back to basics. Very usefull so far.
* 2 x Ghostly Prison- Great card that wont get red blasted against goblins, take it out against mono blue control for more counterspells... etc.
* 1 x Moat- strictly better then ghostly prison, mana cost is higher... but if they expricate my prison or pithing needle calling prison or chalice for 3 I have a back up plan.
* 2 x Oblivion Ring- to remove any non-creature permanents that may hit the board.
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares- best spot removal ever plus I don't care about there health I'm trying to mill them.
* 2 x Academy Ruins- Brings back all my artifacts which is really great. Even with back to basics out I still have a 1 of reanimator land. It has been working well in the long game.
* 9 x Island
* 7 x Plains
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale- I don't own this yet but I have a proxy and when I get it out.... DAMN!

Problems I have been facing
-Wishing I had Brainstorms
- Unsure about Moat as in I haven't used it once.
- I don't own Tabernacles.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I PM'ed you again. It only allows 5000 characters per PM, so I had to seperate it into 3 different PM's. Feel free to post the list and sideboard here on the thread for people to refer to if it feels like something you would like to share.

Hope the PM's help some.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Thanks to a lot of much appreciated help by future star city games columnist Dark Cynic we have compiled a list deemed by both of us competition worthy!

* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Intuition
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 2 x Mana Leak
* 4 x Daze
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 3 x Ghostly Prison
* 2 x Oblivion Ring
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 7 x Island
* 6 x Plains
* 1 x Tundra
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

side board
3x Wrath
2x O-Ring
3x Meddling Mage
1x Ghostly Prison
2x Wipe Away
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Echoing Truth

Still 2 cards shy of actually owning the deck lol... But anyways I will play test this thoroughly and hopefully move it up to the established deck forum soon enough!

[sephorusFR]

or pithing needle calling prison
if your opp. do this, he's a moron ... PN don't affect prison ...

[Mystical_Jackass]

I like the intuition + academy combo.

If I were running a deck like this I'd almost wanna run like 3 trinket mage imo, then a couple one-of's like pithing needle and sensei's. With that you could almost cut down on the tutors.. I mean, that's just a lot of tutors having 4, I hate getting a hand with like 2 tutors lol, just so friggin slow getting going. Sometimes it can leave me sorta mana screwed too, its almost safe having an artifact land in your deck as corny as that sounds, but it can be tutored and fetched with trinket if you happen to have a hand with like 2 tutors. But yeah, with 4 brainstorms/ponders and intuition I think that 4 tutors is overkill. But I'd deffinitely consider trinket mage, it does for this deck much of what imperial recruiter can do for R/W painter

[Dark_Cynic87]

It's been suggested, but then it goes down the slippery slope of going to CB because you can tutor for top, and then if you go that route, you may as well play EPIC Painter or Next-Level Painter. This list runs Back To Basics, which makes the Artifact Land bad at best, and not so Wasteland friendly either.

Back to Basics is being used because of the tremendous lack of basics in the format, and seems to do fairly well for this list. It throws their tempo off enough that it really allows you to abuse your E. Tutors and get your combo down before they can do much. Paired with Dazes and Mana Leaks, you continue draining their resources, while giving you the ability to get down your combo and win before they can take care of the B2B.

You really have the ability of total board control with the amount of removal you run and paired with the Mages you have an alternate win condition of swinging. They can even be used as chump blockers if you need while you drop your combo.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

I agree completely if I'm running counter/top half of my deck gets invalidated. I really like the disruption I have I am however thinking of adding a single of ethersworn canonist in the sideboard, or a single of orim's chant for TPS. Thoughts?

[Dark_Cynic87]

My thought is this:

Aethersworn Cannonist isn't good against Stax, Meddling Mage can be. Same goes for a Stompy and Affinity. Mage can be. Cannonist works decently in the Storm MU, which you have shared concerns about recently, but I think that you will find when you actually play the matchup you have a better shot at winning it than you think, especially when you begin to understand how to play against it. I know you can Tutor for it with Enlightened Tutor, and if you want it never hurts to playtest. I simply like Mage better. Well...Maybe it would be better. I play ANT, FDDT, TES, and Doomsday/ANT Hybrid, and I assure you that you do have a chance since you play a combo along with counterspells. They only thing I will mention is that naming blue against most storm lists with Painter will be a mistake, as many lists run Pyroblasts for protection, which is what made me hesitant just a minute ago when you brought up Cannonist in place of Mage (mage is blue, Pyroblast nails it's coffin shut and you really don't want to have to waste your counterspells in a war of attrition to allow them to combo off free and clear). Be careful about Extirpate as well, as some storm players will feel the need to Duress out a Grindstone and then hit it with 'Pate to screw you over for the win (We storm players do understand that playing Extirpate in the control matchup, which this is, can do wonders in making sure you never hit a Force of Will again). When Extirpate is an issue, Wheel of Sun and Moon can help.

Maybe Cannonist would be better. Check it out by testing.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Canonist...
a) shuts down storm
b) makes my combo basically unstoppable. i play grindstone, he plays force of will... I force back. He does jack $hit. Then I play painter and win lol. I actually like it alot... its very tempting not to m.d. :eek:

[Mystical_Jackass]

Back to Basics is sideboard man. It's never a good idea to just assume, then go against some white control, sui black, merfolk, goblin, or just plain randi using basic lands. It's a great card don't get me wrong, but look man.. its like trinisphere in that it doesn't have an immediate solution to any threats like WoG, it just slows down their tempo, but since you're not running city of traitors + mox, were talking like turn 3-4 affect at BEST. Many of the opponents can just fetch for basic lands the following game, most good players keep several in those situations, they'll adapt.

I'm also pretty sure most of the hated decks like Zoo, Vial decks, Reanimator, Storm, Stompie decks shoot to kill by turn 4. Looking at the thin removal and lack of creatures the deck has to offer (maybe a sword & counter in your hand), these faster creature heavy decks are gonna break through your defense really fast, turn 4 you're looking at "I better pull this off b4 these creatures end me", not "I better slow down their tempo". I wouldn't underestimate what other decks are capable of, you're just assuming having one FoW in your hand's just gonna be there to save your neck when it'll prolly get baited to stop one threat followed by 2 more..

[Mystical_Jackass]

Back to Basics is sideboard man. It's never a good idea to just assume, then go against some white control, sui black, merfolk, goblin, or just plain randi using basic lands. It's a great card don't get me wrong, but look man.. its like trinisphere in that it doesn't have an immediate solution to any threats like WoG, it just slows down their tempo, but since you're not running city of traitors + mox, were talking like turn 3-4 affect at BEST. Many of the opponents can just fetch for basic lands the following game, most good players keep several in those situations, they'll adapt.

I'm also pretty sure most of the hated decks like Zoo, Vial decks, Reanimator, Storm, Stompie decks shoot to kill by turn 4. Looking at the thin removal and lack of creatures the deck has to offer (maybe a sword & counter in your hand), these faster creature heavy decks are gonna break through your defense really fast, turn 4 you're looking at "I better pull this off b4 these creatures end me", not "I better slow down their tempo". I wouldn't underestimate what other decks are capable of, you're just assuming having one FoW in your hand's just gonna be there to save your neck when it'll prolly get baited to stop one threat followed by 2 more..

[Dark_Cynic87]

B2B isn't Sideboard. You may play it sideboard, but I believe the fellow building the thread included it in his maindeck because he knows his meta better than you do. If he feels like for his metagame it's good, then he's probably playing in a metagame more developed than Suiblack, burn, WW and zoo. It's probably a bit more landstill and thresh varients, and I've heard him mention concerns about Storm combo.

You MAY be right about the speed of the build, but I might suggest that with the decent amount of removal, attack resistance (Prison), and counterspells, he's probably got a good chance of making it to turn 4. Also, at turn four, when he drops back to basics, the game swings drastically in his favor in any of tier one matchups (other than Merfolk, but he and I have already discussed the matchup, and I believe that's why the sideboard has WoG. I suppose if he wanted, he could put in Tombs or Cities for the extra mana for the early game, but I don't know how well that would fly...It may be something to test. I would suggest Cities over Tombs just because it's frustrating to see lands sitting tapped in play when you could really use them. with the lack of defense (creature base) to the list, I can also see Tomb being more of a problem than it usually is.

If you want to try one of those lands, you can just drop out 2x of each basic and try 4x of City of Traitors. I think this will screw up some of the synergies in your list, though.

Also, if you are going against any of those lists you mentioned, Jackass, then I suppose game one is possibly a loss, but games 2 and 3 get strictly better as you have Wrath of God in the board, 2 more O-Rings, another Ghostly Prison and a few bounce effects. This can and most likely will turn everything but burn into a win. That, and I think when people look at decks with counterspells in them, they tend to forget just how powerful they can be when used appropriately.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Couldn't have said it any better myself. :cool:

[baghdadbob]

Ok so I recently brought this deck to the Off The Wall Games tourney. I got stomped and cried for a few hours when I got home. I went 1-4. I thought a lot in between the drops of tears about what went wrong. So here it is the gist of what happened.
G/W/U rocked me but it was close. Jotun grunt proves to be super tech against painter combo. Back to basics proves to be a freaking bomb. Tyrogon predator, grunt, and grips took me out.
U/G/R Dreadstill. Countertop was a pain in the ass. Too many threats made me weep for several hours.
U/W fish This match should have been easy but I made play errors and also mulled to 5 both games. Didn't find a second mana till 4th turn.
What worked well-
Back to basics- Really took people by surprise very overwhelming for alot of decks.
Running 4x of Painter and Grindstone- Was easy to find pieces often by turn 2.
Ethersworn Canonist- By the end of game 2 I had this puppy mainboard. Really shuts down any chance of counterwars over my combo pieces.
Circle of protection green in the sideboard- Super awesome held off tarmagoyfs and predator for a while.
What didn't work-
Preparing the sideboard for goblins and ichorid.
This includes these cards...
Wrath of God
Echoing Truth
Wheel of Sun and moon
Turns out no one in my meta plays either of these things. Should have had wipe away s/b.
Things I wish I had done-
Played countertop.
Dropped white altogether aside from swords I didn't really beneifit at all. Ghostly prison was effective 1/3 games. Could just be propaganda if I wanted.
Brought food and drink.

Ok so I'm in the works of making a new list and would like Source help. I feel a mono blue shell is very very strong. This is what I'm thinking and It could be incredibly stupid.

4x Force of Will- Disrupt first turn wins free counterspell. Obvious.
4x Counterspell- This is mono blue so the double U is easy. Obvious.
4x Spell Snare- I have been playtesting with daze I'm not sure yet. But saving my other counterspells for non-2x spells seems smart.
1x Oona Queen Of The Fae- A great big beater which this deck needs. You can only stall for so long before you play threats. It also mills and gives me tokens to block/swing with. Seems good.
3x Grindstone- Kill condition.
3x Painter- Kill condition that works great s/b with blue elemental blasts against dragon stompy and goblins.
2x Clique- Can get rid of alot of troublesome cards. Also I can flip it off counterbalance to stop Grip. 2x because of space constraints and it is legendary.
3x Shackles- Steal some creatures and also flip to stop grip.
3x Counterbalance- This card just wrecks people and with 4x brainstorm 2x ponder and 4x flooded strand I can do alot of shuffling.
3x Top- Is a soft lock with counterbalance but also gives me card advantage to find combo pieces or bombs.
2x Ponder- Giving me 16 total draw/shuffle effects. Gets rid of stuff I don't need.

Unsure about the s/b. Comments/questions/concerns are more then welcome. I would defiantly like some help.:smile: