[NCD] Lorescale Coatl

[quicksilver]

Wisescale Serpent* 1:g::u:
Creature - Snake - Uncommon
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Wisescale Serpent.
2/2

Please keep in mind that this card still could change.

Don't forget this naturally gets +1/+1 a turn from your draw step. Cards like brainstorm and sylvan library have really good synergy with this.

Sensei's divining top can be used to put a +1/+1 counter on this for just one mana. If you have two tops you can do it as many times as you want a turn(1 mana each time) at sorcery speed.

So this seems like a strong card, will it see play in legacy? Will it be played in threshold style decks?

[from Cairo]

It seems like a natural fit to me solid beats, grows w/o any investment, pitches to Force. Might see more play in Tempo Thresh or Team America as creature 9 & 10, than in Balanced Thresh / NLU. Since Balanced Thresh / NLU seem to be going more towards control/CA guys, than straight beats w/ protection or tempo.

[Volt]

As currently spoiled, it's a damn fine creature. It would certainly see some play.

[quicksilver]

It seems like a natural fit to me solid beats, grows w/o any investment, pitches to Force. Might see more play in Tempo Thresh or Team America as creature 9 & 10, than in Balanced Thresh / NLU. Since Balanced Thresh / NLU seem to be going more towards control/CA guys, than straight beats w/ protection or tempo.

I think it might be better in a more controlish version of thresh since the longer the game goes the better he gets. He is also capable of playing defence against a goyf and is more than happy to just sit there for a few turns with niether player being able to attack

[from Cairo]

Valid point, idk if those lists will want to replace Trinket Mage or Trygon Predator with him, definitely a possibility though. Would be nice to see some more good removal seeing print. With the quality of the creatures that have been seeing print it feels like the removal is falling behind.

[Aggro_zombies]

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 "Wisescale Snake"
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will


Splashing black for Stronghold and removal like Smother or Damnation wouldn't be bad either. 1-2 Jitte would be a possibility as well.

Not going for Threshold here at all, but an Intuition-Loam card advantage engine.

[from Cairo]

I'd probably drop E Witness (underwhelming w/o Volrath's Stronghold), 1-2 Vedalken Shackles (3 overkill w/ Intuition/Academy Ruins), and 1 Counterspell for 3-4 Ponder, but otherwise seems like a cool list to test out.

[goobafish]

This card is amazing if this is the final version.

[quicksilver]

One thing I do like about this card is the ability to bluff with it. Now say you have a 4/5 goyf out and they just played this guy and got a blue open. You have no counters in hand and no removal. Do you swing in and risk getting savaged by brainstorm? Probably not. Thus allowing this guy to fend of a goyf even when he is still to small to do so.

[spirit of the wretch]

I very much enjoyed playing Dryade in red balanced Thresh and this card is superior in every way (except the CC of course). It will probably make its way into Legacy.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'd probably drop E Witness (underwhelming w/o Volrath's Stronghold), 1-2 Vedalken Shackles (3 overkill w/ Intuition/Academy Ruins), and 1 Counterspell for 3-4 Ponder, but otherwise seems like a cool list to test out.
Hmm, good point. Not sure about the Ponder, but...how about this?

4 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wisescale Snake
1 Eternal Witness

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Addition of black gives Witness and Stronghold recursion, the option for Deed and good sideboard cards, and Worm Harvest (not necessarily good, but god do I love that card).

[zulander]

This card is retarded...

[Brushwagg]

If this stays the way it is, I'm looking into getting a play set ASAP!

[Volt]

Wizards may have succeeded in printing a creature nearly as dumb as Tarmogoyf. And the funny thing is it goes right into the same decks that are currently employing the best creature and strategies in Legacy. That's just peachy. Personally, I hope the spoiler is wrong. I know that probably won't make me popular, but whatever.

One good thing... Bounce spells will be a much better answer to Wisescale Serpent than they are to Tarmogoyf. I predict Submerge will increase in popularity as a sideboard card.

[Team-Hero]

One good thing... Bounce spells will be a much better answer to Wisescale Serpent than they are to Tarmogoyf. I predict Submerge will increase in popularity as a sideboard card.

I agree. The way this card is printed, Brainstorm will be a Giant Growth. Mix it up with the rest: Jace, Ponder, Standstill - this creature is going to be a house. I love Submerge, been playing it for many years; this card will make Submerge a more common sideboard option.

[goobafish]

One good thing... Bounce spells will be a much better answer to Wisescale Serpent than they are to Tarmogoyf. I predict Submerge will increase in popularity as a sideboard card.

Ditto with Red Elemental Blasts.

[Volt]

Ditto with Red Elemental Blasts.

Yep, because A) They kill your opponent's snakes, and B) They counter your opponent's Submerges.

[Fossil4182]

I think for the U/Gx, this could be what people were thinking Knight of the Reliquary was going to be. Or it could just flame out like that card did.

I'm still not sure where its going to end up. Threshold and Counterbalance deck lists are usually very stable and don't suddenly change. Most decks that fall into those archetypes run a very limited number of 3cc slots already. Even in those decks, the room for change is limited. Trinket based decks won't have room for it. I also worry that when it the card comes down, its only a 2/2 and at 3 mana, that "could be" be a key casting card. I wouldn't want to tap out on turn three or wait till four and not see any benefit from the card at least until turn 5. I mean best case, you're able to resolve it turn three, and then you'd have to Brainstorm on your turn which would make him a 6/6. But that's assuming a hell of a lot. Other 3cc like Clique, Trinket and to a lesser extent Trygon and Serendib Efreet (Trygon should be considered more of a board card) seem to hold as much, if not more advantage. I mean Goyf is going to be beater most of the time and serves as the decks heavy hitter. I don't think the decks need more than that. If you're getting into the 3cc range I'd think decks like that would want some immediate turn on your investment. Clique and Trinket offer that, and the later two still add something to the mix like flying and in the case of Trygon a nice benefit.

Additionally, other 3cc cards like Shackles, Vindicate, Deed etc would almost always seem preferable.

Just some thoughts though.

[Enigma]

I completly agree on what Fossil said, but after a few tests on MWS, I have to say he's a real big threat. 9/9 on his second attack isn't very hard to accomplish, mostly because of top's effect and brainstorms. (In a CB deck)

P-M

[bowvamp]

Ditto with active volcano because:
a) Snake killer
b) Tempo gain.

[Damnosus]

Do you folks think he could take the place of Rhox War Monk in current U/G/w thresh? RWM is mainly to help improve the aggro matchup, so I am unsure if it is a good switch. Any thoughts?

[Aggro_zombies]

Do you folks think he could take the place of Rhox War Monk in current U/G/w thresh? RWM is mainly to help improve the aggro matchup, so I am unsure if it is a good switch. Any thoughts?
The lifelink is the relevant part of that creature, not so much the body size (which helps). The snake gets big quickly, but isn't anything you'd want to swing with if you're on the defensive.

[Giles]

This card is amazing if this is the final version.
I agree.

[Enigma]

A first draft:


// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island

// Kill
4 Wisescale Serpent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Berserk

// Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
3 Predict
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Permission
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

Or maybe without CB/TOP and more creatures.


Could be fun to play :laugh:

[Jander78]

I certainly hope this is not the final wording on the card.

[zulander]

I hope it's not the final wording. The final wording probably says +1/+1 for every drawn card until end of turn.

[Happy Gilmore]

I agree with Zulander, at the very least this doesn't read like an uncommon. The power level is just too high.

[Mayk0l]

I agree with Zulander, at the very least this doesn't read like an uncommon. The power level is just too high.

What, like Counterbalance? Sensei's Divining Top? Cabal Therapy? Nimble Mongoose?


I hope it's real, I've been waiting for a good reason to go back to my roots of UG for a long time now (a way that is not Tarmagoyfery)

[Isamaru]

This can't be right! There must be some mistake.

... It's supposed to have flying.

[Volt]

What, like Counterbalance? Sensei's Divining Top? Cabal Therapy? Nimble Mongoose?


I hope it's real, I've been waiting for a good reason to go back to my roots of UG for a long time now (a way that is not Tarmagoyfery)

I'm trying to think of a deck that you would play Wisescale Serpent in that you wouldn't also play Goyf in. I'm drawing a blank.

[Barook]

If the wording of the card is the final version, it could be a design oversight, just like Tarmogoyf, considering the Cycling subtheme of the set.

I don't think they would print such a potential chase rare as a uncommon intentionally. Sure, there are good cards as a uncommon sometimes (e.g. Eternal Witness), but we also got stuff like Thoughtseize as a rare only for money reasons.

[idraleo]

The final wording is "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card"

The card remains awesome, better in decks that envelop LFTL strategies than in threshold-based

[Aggro_zombies]

The final wording is "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card"

The card remains awesome, better in decks that envelop LFTL strategies than in threshold-based
Brainstorm is still a permanent Giant Growth for this guy, but at least he won't grow on your draw step.

Marginally less retarded, but still really powerful.

EDIT: where are you getting this from?

[idraleo]

other forum where i post, maybe took from mtgsaLvation

[Mayk0l]

I'm trying to think of a deck that you would play Wisescale Serpent in that you wouldn't also play Goyf in. I'm drawing a blank.

No, you're absolutely right. What I meant to say was that Tarmogoyf, lame as it is, didn't feel to me a good reason to go back to UG, my favourite combination of colours. Basically because *every* deck plays Goyf. This creature, being UG in its truest form however, does woo me back to UG because this is pure UG-only awesomeness.
But then, to get back to your point, I'd have to buy Goyfs (again), you're right.

Anyway, if that final wording is the right one, what makes that thing grow in a typical UG Threshlike deck if not the draw step? Brainstorm, Ponder to a (much) lesser extent, maybe Standstill, but what else?

EDIT: I just figured it out, Sensei's Divining Top, it's recurring too. My god. That's cool.

[BreathWeapon]

That's insane, it's more or less a 3cc 2/2 Dryad that gets +1/1 a turn from Sensei's Divining Top, +3/3 a turn from Cephalid Coliseum, turns Brainstorm into Giant Growth AND pitches to Force of Will ... wow ...

At least it's a reason to run Night Whispers, that's for damn sure.

[DireLemming]

Anyway, if that final wording is the right one, what makes that thing grow in a typical UG Threshlike deck if not the draw step? Brainstorm, Ponder to a (much) lesser extent, maybe Standstill, but what else?
In this case Sylvan Library is probably better than Standstill.

[etrigan]

The final wording is "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card"

The card remains awesome, better in decks that envelop LFTL strategies than in threshold-based

If this is the wording, Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, Standstill, etc. would only give one +1/+1 counter. If that's the case, I dont see this card making the cut.

e: The way I see it, it triggers when a spell or ability causes you to draw a card, and that would only trigger once, because there's only one spell or ability that fits that condition. Drawing multiple cards would not affect that. I dont see the connection to Mind's Eye, as Mind's Eye specifically refers to individual card draws.

[MattH]

If this is the wording, Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, Standstill, etc. would only give one +1/+1 counter. If that's the case, I dont see this card making the cut.

I'm pretty sure that's not true, even with the "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card" wording. An existing card with a similar effect is Mind's Eye.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48919

[Nightmare]

-4 Nimble Mongoose
+4 this guy.

Deck complete. Thanks for upgrading my threat base in the last few blocks, Wizards. Thresh just went from crazy good to RETARDED. Also, more 3cc guys just makes CB better.

[idraleo]

or you couLd pLay:

LFTL
exploration
cycling lands
goyf
kudzu
fathom seer
this guy

[humppa]

I'm looking for a word "instead" in a text of this guy....

[caldaean]

I'm pretty sure that's not true, even with the "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card" wording. An existing card with a similar effect is Mind's Eye.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48919

Well, is that really comparable? Minds eye triggers on the draw itself, meaning it triggers 3 times for brainstorm/standstill/whatever. The new wording on this, wouldn't it cause Wisescale Serpent's ability trigger only 1 time (while it forces you to draw 3 cards, it only forces you once)?

[undone]

I reserve the right to say it sucks. But at the moment it seems very damn good.

If it doesnt trigger off the draw for the turn it isnt very good. If it does it is very very good.

If it doesnt last (till end of turn not counters) it sucks.

[Skeggi]

The new wording on this, wouldn't it cause Wisescale Serpent's ability trigger only 1 time (while it forces you to draw 3 cards, it only forces you once)?
No: you get 3 counters. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13479

[keys]

The fact that this has no evasion and is vulnerable to bounce is the only thing keeping this from being downright busted. It seems just plain better than Dryad in UG.

[Volt]

-4 Nimble Mongoose
+4 this guy.

Deck complete. Thanks for upgrading my threat base in the last few blocks, Wizards. Thresh just went from crazy good to RETARDED. Also, more 3cc guys just makes CB better.

Does it automatically replace Nimble Mongoose, or do you find a way to squeeze some number of each of them in? I mean, 1-drops with shroud are still pretty useful.

[FoolofaTook]

Another Goyf competitor, as the meta shifts inextricably towards high powered beaters for low cost.

People will hold Brainstorm to play right after they drop this, thus avoiding the Quirion Dryad problem of being too little when it lands in the midgame. It also pitches to Force of Will, making it an easy inclusion in Ug control or control-aggro.

[Fons]

In testing it was pretty busted, getting to ridiculous sizes very quickly. I was testing the original wording though where it activated from every card drawn including during your turn draw.

[Arsenal]

I see people using bounce as a drawback to the Serpent, but honestly, how many decks maindeck bounce? TES? Some MUC builds? I'd like to honestly know how much bounce you guys are seeing with such frequency that it's compelling you to name it as a drawback.

[quicksilver]

I do not think bounce is very relivant to this guy. They wouldn't bounce it until the mid game anyways when it has some counters on it, making them gain not much temp from the bounce and losing card advantage. The only "bounce" i see relevant against this is submerge, but even then it's not that bad. I would still play this guy against submerge.

Also I don't think he is a busted as some people think. He is no gofy. But he is still a very good card.

[Arsenal]

I do not think bounce is very relivant to this guy. They wouldn't bounce it until the mid game anyways when it has some counters on it, making them gain not much temp from the bounce and losing card advantage. The only "bounce" i see relevant against this is submerge, but even then it's not that bad. I would still play this guy against submerge.

Also I don't think he is a busted as some people think. He is no gofy. But he is still a very good card.

My thoughts exactly. I just don't understand how people are using bounce as a drawback. Snake or not, the Thresh player is going to eot Brainstorm, so why not pump your guy as a nice bonus? Bounce would factor into the Snake's playability if the Snake player was going out of his way to pump him, or sinking vast amounts of resources to pump him, but the Snake player isn't; the Serpent gets larger through natural game progression.

Also, what bounce spells are people seeing that bounce is even being brought up? TES plays 1x Chain of Vapor, ANT may play 1x Wipe Away/random bounce, MUC may play 1-2x Capsize, but that's about it. I don't exactly see Boomerang tearing into top 8's, so where is this fear of bounce coming from?

[Atwa]

I am so going to test this out with Sylvan Library.

I think the card isn't as busted as some people think, however I do think it's a decent and interesting card.

[Nightmare]

If this ends up being what it's been spoiled as, I'll just point out how similar this conversation is (thus far) to the spoiler conversation of Goyf. Just sayin.

[rufus]

It gets pretty huge in conjunction with Diminishing Returns.

[quicksilver]

If this ends up being what it's been spoiled as, I'll just point out how similar this conversation is (thus far) to the spoiler conversation of Goyf. Just sayin.

It doesn't seem that thread is visible any more. Would it be possible for you to make it visible and psot a link? I really don't remeber that thread and it would be cool to see it knowing what we know now.

[Nightmare]

That sure is a lot of work, Dave.

[spirit of the wretch]

Also I don't think he is a busted as some people think. He is no gofy. But he is still a very good card.

QFT! People were hyping Knight of the Reliquary as the second coming of Goyf, too...

[Volt]

I think it could be nearly as good as goyf, actually. It's less "splashable," but that doesn't really matter because it easily fits right into the same decks that currently use goyf to the greatest advantage.

And, yes, the only bounce spell that is particularly relevant is Submerge. As I mentioned before, Submerge is about to spike in popularity as a sideboard card.

This is all assuming the spoiler is correct, of course.

[Nightmare]

I've reviewed the threads spoiling Goyf, but there isn't much to show. It's in Community, by the way.

Basically, a couple times people said "hey, this could be good." and then there are like three threads about it being banworthy, and that was it.

Still, this guy feels ominous. That's not the way I want to feel when I think about a new card in a set. Excitement, anticipation, yes. Foreboding dread? Not so much.

[Jaynel]

I'm a little bit worried. It's a "vanilla" creature that gets larger just as the game state progresses, just like Tarmogoyf. And this time, it pitches to Force.

That said, I will thoroughly enjoy pointing Big Game Hunter at this guy.

[ssilver]

Island-walk just got the Heimlich Maneuver, I was worried that thresh would be dropping off the map (making Merfolk worse) :tongue:

[quicksilver]

Island-walk just got the Heimlich Maneuver, I was worried that thresh would be dropping off the map (making Merfolk worse) :tongue:

Woa I definitly see Fish Liver oil going for no less than $10 a piece now, better stock up on them while they are still cheap!

[Aggro_zombies]

Woa I definitly see Fish Liver oil going for no less than $10 a piece now, better stock up on them while they are still cheap!
Good thing I can get a gallon of that at the local Chinese grocery store for way less than $10.

[beastman]

This card is amazing. I really don't think this is going to be it's final version though, I'm sure its going to be an until end of turn effect.

[DrHealex]

I am just happy that it is listed as uncommon.
Just think how many people would get burned if it was listed as rare and this wasn't the correct wording :D

[troopatroop]

I just can't see the card being printed as is. Not as a 2/2 Uncommon. There's gonna be a catch here, or at least I hope there is. It's so obviously powerful, unlike Tarmogoyf. I'd like it as a 1/1 better.

[4eak]

Very nice card. Playable, but not the end of the world.

After testing the card, I've found he's not always immediately relevant enough to the gamestate given his casting cost. 3cc better be a game winning spell in heavy-cantrip grow decks. Sometimes Serpent was that game winning spell (saw him hit 11/11 in one game!), and sometimes he wasn't (2/2 sucks at blocking). If this were a 2cc card, then I'd be willing to say 'omfg', but at 3cc, he's not gamebreaking.

I thought this was the perfect card for grow, but he just doesn't convert your previous resources into an immediate effect like Threshold-mechanic creatures. His abuse of future resources is obviously more consistent than Dryad, but it should be, he costs 1 more.

That said, he can grow big time. If he is unanswered, and not forced to play defensively before he can grow, he gets huge. It isn't difficult to see Brainstorm, Top, and natural turn draws push him to 7/7 or even higher.

You pretty much want to play UG/w if you play serpent because you need very sustainable control elements to make the game last long enough to abuse Serpent. Assuming white, I'm not convinced he's better than Rhox War Monk.

Rhox comes into play immediately as a defensive card. 3/4 blocks a lot of creatures and lives, and the lifelink is extremely relevant to halting aggro-plans. Rhox is a consistent card, with very definable values in a given role, while the serpent is a bit more conditional and less reliable.

Times when Serpent was clearly better than Rhox:

1.) You had an unused Brainstorm in hand and a 4th mana.
2.) You were in a slightly better than neutral or winning position, and didn't need (or couldn't foresee a need for) immediate defense.

Even other Goyf-complementary cards like Dark Confidant are serious competition for serpent. Confidant feeds you cards at a very playable 2cc, and is useful at any number of turns, while Serpent requires a few turns before he becomes worth his cost.

Will test more though. The card is clearly very good, but he isn't Goyfhype-worthy.


peace,
4eak

[FoolofaTook]

I see people using bounce as a drawback to the Serpent, but honestly, how many decks maindeck bounce? TES? Some MUC builds? I'd like to honestly know how much bounce you guys are seeing with such frequency that it's compelling you to name it as a drawback.

If Wisescale Serpent is printed with the current wording people will play more bounce main deck, which also allows for more answers to other non-creature threats. This is a pretty healthy switch in the meta since far too many decks ignore the ability to remove non-creatures in game 1. Adding bounce to deal with this guy will also make decks more sound against other permanent based strategies. On another note doesn't Path to Exile look a lot better now? I can see white making a comeback as a major splash for StP and PtE at like the 6 or 7 level.

[quicksilver]

The thing is though that boucne is aweful, it's card disadvantage and most decks won't wnat to play that in a match were card advantage is so important. Why spend mana and a card to bounce him when you can kill him with sowrds to plaowshares or snuff out for equal or less mana.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing is though that boucne is aweful, it's card disadvantage and most decks won't wnat to play that in a match were card advantage is so important. Why spend mana and a card to bounce him when you can kill him with sowrds to plaowshares or snuff out for equal or less mana.

Bounce has the advantage that it solves a multitude of potential problems temporarily. You trade off power for flexibility. In a lot of concepts it's much weaker than more directed outright removal, however in decks that can profit from the interval to kill or lock down the game it's possibly stronger.

TES plays bounce and not StP or Krosan Grip because it plans to win the game in the interval in which it has removed the permanent and before it lands again. The versatility of bounce, which can remove Counterbalance or Gaddock Teeg or other less played problems, is what makes it valuable to TES as a weapon.

I think there are control schemes, particularly ones exploiting Counterbalance, that are using less bounce than they should, given that Counterbalance can negate the card disadvantage in many scenarios.

[from Cairo]

Bounce is still inferior to an answer though, Engineered Explosives, Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, I guess in MUC there is Repeal, but if the option is there to play EE @ 2+ I'd rather have it than a bounce spell.

The only one I could see getting more play is Submerge, and that's cause its alot more than a bounce spell tempo wise, especially if you're opponent has a fetchland on the stack.

[Volt]

The thing is though that boucne is aweful, it's card disadvantage and most decks won't wnat to play that in a match were card advantage is so important. Why spend mana and a card to bounce him when you can kill him with sowrds to plaowshares or snuff out for equal or less mana.

You're talking about Wipe Away and Unsummon and crap like that. The rest of us are talking about Submerge.

Also, nobody that is playing Swords to Plowshares or Snuff Out is going to stop playing them.

[quicksilver]

You're talking about Wipe Away and Unsummon and crap like that. The rest of us are talking about Submerge.

Also, nobody that is playing Swords to Plowshares or Snuff Out is going to stop playing them.

I don't consider submerge a bounce spell. Bounce spells return it to your hand, submerge does not do that.

[Volt]

I don't consider submerge a bounce spell. Bounce spells return it to your hand, submerge does not do that.

Fair enough.

The point is that I don't think anybody is talking about putting Boomerangs in their maindeck or sideboard as an answer for Wisescale Serpent.

Wipe Away, Rushing River, and Echoing Truth currently see small amounts of play in Legacy. Those cards will be somewhat better against Serpent than they are against Goyf. That's all I was saying.

[undone]

You're talking about Wipe Away and Unsummon and crap like that. The rest of us are talking about Submerge.

Canadian thresh plays 1 wipe away and 1 RR (recently most have been cutting RR) very well. I dont see why bounce is so maligned it isnt that bad keep in mind bounce can function as a bad counter spell if you need to save the target (goyf) in the situation.

In any event I think this card will see 2-3 of play in legacy, it MIGHT see 4 of play in some decks but not decks that run goose.

[FoolofaTook]

Fair enough.

The point is that I don't think anybody is talking about putting Boomerangs in their maindeck or sideboard as an answer for Wisescale Serpent.

Wipe Away, Rushing River, and Echoing Truth currently see small amounts of play in Legacy. Those cards will be somewhat better against Serpent than they are against Goyf. That's all I was saying.

Echoing Truth and Rushing River are the cards I think might be promoted a bit. Wipe Away is a bit too limited, with just one potential target, to see much play I think. ET hits tokens too and Rushing River let's you potentially pick up the opponent's Counterbalance and Goyf if you need to.

[zulander]

If you're splashing black or white then there is no reason you should be playing bounce.

[majikal]

Whoever said the ability triggered off of a "spell or ability that would cause you to draw a card"... where did you get that information? The thread on mtgsalvation does not mention that anywhere. I think it probably actually does trigger on your draw step.

[Occam]

Whoever said the ability triggered off of a "spell or ability that would cause you to draw a card"... where did you get that information? The thread on mtgsalvation does not mention that anywhere. I think it probably actually does trigger on your draw step.

I asked that same question on mtgs but didn't get an answer.

On a different note, the card is apparently now called Wisescale Coatl.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, i readed that thread too. The card is still spoiled as : 1UG 2/2 , put a +1+1 counter when you draw. Pretty sick if you ask me.

However, this is no Goyf. Where Goyf is a gigantic wall that can attack, this is more of real beater.
The Coatl need time to get a big fat ass. This will be big as a Goyf for defensive purpose on turn 4 (draw+brainstorm) at the earliest imho, two full turn slower than Goyf, turns that could be lethal against fast aggro deck.

[majikal]

Yeah, i readed that thread too. The card is still spoiled as : 1UG 2/2 , put a +1+1 counter when you draw. Pretty sick if you ask me.

However, this is no Goyf. Where Goyf is a gigantic wall that can attack, this is more of real beater.
The Coatl need time to get a big fat ass. This will be big as a Goyf for defensive purpose on turn 4 (draw+brainstorm) at the earliest imho, two full turn slower than Goyf, turns that could be lethal against fast aggro deck.
It doesn't have to be Goyf. Goyf is already Goyf. What we should be talking about is why we should be playing this AND Goyf.

On a separate note, I'm a little pissed at the fact that Jenara is a mythic legend and this is an uncommon non-legend.

[quicksilver]

I asked that same question on mtgs but didn't get an answer.

On a different note, the card is apparently now called Wisescale Coatl.

This is still not the real name since Wisescale does not appear at all in the Orb of insight.

[majikal]

This is still not the real name since Wisescale does not appear at all in the Orb of insight.
Maybe it's Wise-scale?

[quicksilver]

Maybe it's Wise-scale?

Niether Wise-scale, wise, or scale returns any matches.

Also on the rumored wording of "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card".
I do not think this is correct since "ability" turns up twice in the orb and Putrid Leech and Crystallization both have the word ability. Although I don't know if thsoe two cards have been confirmed since they do not have pictures, I think they are probably correct.

Also orb of insight shows 6 instances of the word first, but the spoiler only has 5 so far. I am thinking perhaps this is worded to only put counters on when you draw a card except for the first card drawn for the turn.

[bruno_tiete]

Regarding the "causes you to draw" wording, there are not enough "causes" on the orb, as its single appearance is in some "damage causes loss of life" already spoiled card.

Either it's just as simple as that sick wording, or it has some exception clause not using "causes", which I doubt.

One more card to be taken by Sowers of Temptation, I guess.

[Occam]

Niether Wise-scale, wise, or scale returns any matches.

Also on the rumored wording of "Put a +1/+1 counter on *this* whenever a spell or ability causes you to draw a card".
I do not think this is correct since "ability" turns up twice in the orb and Putrid Leech and Crystallization both have the word ability. Although I don't know if thsoe two cards have been confirmed since they do not have pictures, I think they are probably correct.

Also orb of insight shows 6 instances of the word first, but the spoiler only has 5 so far. I am thinking perhaps this is worded to only put counters on when you draw a card except for the first card drawn for the turn.

Wisescale isn't correct, but Coatl is, hence it being called Wisescale Coatl tentatively.

Some grim-looking (or welcome, depending on how you look at it) orb news:

If this card is worded to have its effect end at the end of turn, the best key word would be "until". Exalted and cascade all have "until" in their reminder texts. There are 6 instances of exalted and 12 instances of cascade, plus another 13 uses of "until", which gives 31. The orb turns up 32 hits.

On the other hand, "counter" has 15 hits, which checks out with the spoiler and makes it likely for the current wording, regardless of whether the counters are added after the first draw or not.

Edit: Knotvine Paladin's wording is likely to change though, which may account for the missing "until" hit.

[quicksilver]

Wisescale isn't correct, but Coatl is, hence it being called Wisescale Coatl tentatively.

Some grim-looking (or welcome, depending on how you look at it) orb news:

If this card is worded to have its effect end at the end of turn, the best key word would be "until". Exalted and cascade all have "until" in their reminder texts. There are 6 instances of exalted and 12 instances of cascade, plus another 13 uses of "until", which gives 31. The orb turns up 32 hits.

On the other hand, "counter" has 15 hits, which checks out with the spoiler and makes it likely for the current wording, regardless of whether the counters are added after the first draw or not.

It would not make sense to be both until end of turn and use counters. If it was until end of turn it would simply say "Whenever you draw a card ~this~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn."

The orb does say there are 15 instances of "counter" and the spoiler currently has 15 instances of counter, thus giving more credability to not being until end of turn.

The orb has 32 instances of "until" and ther are only 17 in the spoiler! These are not anywhere near lcose enough to draw any sort of information about this card being until end of turn.

There are 44 instance of "turn" in the orb and 34 in the spoiler, again too far off to get any meaningful information.

[Occam]

It would not make sense to be both until end of turn and use counters. If it was until end of turn it would simply say "Whenever you draw a card ~this~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn."

The orb does say there are 15 instances of "counter" and the spoiler currently has 15 instances of counter, thus giving more credability to not being until end of turn.

The orb has 32 instances of "until" and ther are only 17 in the spoiler! These are not anywhere near lcose enough to draw any sort of information about this card being until end of turn.

There are 44 instance of "turn" in the orb and 34 in the spoiler, again too far off to get any meaningful information.


I know. Which is why 15 orb hits for "counter" points to the wording staying as it is.

For "until", every exalted hit and every cascade hit would have "until" in the reminder text. As of now, only four instances of cascade have reminder text on the spoiler, which likely is not the case for the actual cards. It's a pretty safe bet to assume that all exalted and all cascade cards activate an "until" hit, which gives 6 (exalted) + 8 (cascade without reminder text on spoiler) + 17 = 31. As I've edited into my last post, it is likely that Knotvine Paladin has the last instance of "until".

As for "turn" hits, I guess exalted would account for another 6 hits, but I agree that it is speculative to a certain extent, which is why I used "until" as a better gauge as it narrows the scope of the orb-crunching.

[quicksilver]

Also orb of insight shows 6 instances of the word first, but the spoiler only has 5 so far. I am thinking perhaps this is worded to only put counters on when you draw a card except for the first card drawn for the turn.

I tried the orb for drawn and got 0, I tried step (might not work during draw step) and got 2, but both are used already.

I am trying hard to find evidence that it is worded differerently than it's spoiled but I am not finding much.

Its looks very likely that it will use counters and not be until end of turn, and without the word drawn, it looks like it will also count the draw step. Also it loks like it doesn't use the word ability, so that alternate version doesn't seem likely.

[Enigma]

Its real name:

Lorescale Coatl

[zulander]

where'd you get that from?

[quicksilver]

I think it was exptrapolated. Lorescale appears twice in the Orb (this uses it's name twice). Lorescale fits alphabetically in with the other cards. No other cards have Lorescale yet. Wisescale was simply not the name. I think it is a likely educated guess.

[porcupinetreeman]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=158639

I saw it here

[majikal]

Yeah the checklist has it as "Lorescale". Still haven't seen one, mind.

[idraleo]

Wisescale Coatl* - 1GU
Creature - Snake (Uncommon)
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Wisescale Coatl.
2/2
#101/145

Final spoilered card, the best of all possible version, it grow onto draw step too. The "may" word could make the cut if this dude is played by some new player ^^

[quicksilver]

Wisescale Coatl* - 1GU
Creature - Snake (Uncommon)
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Wisescale Coatl.
2/2
#101/145

Final spoilered card, the best of all possible version, it grow onto draw step too. The "may" word could make the cut if this dude is played by some new player ^^

That is clearly not the final card since the name is wrong. The mtgslavation spoiler has been updated since with the neew name, still no picture.

[majikal]

I actually saw one of these last night. It really does grow on your draw step. Insanity!

[TrialByFire]

Lorescale Coatl - 1GU
Creature - Snake (Uncommon)
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Lorescale Coatl.
2/2
#101/145

From the Salvation completed Spoiler. Ridiculous

[keys]

Why is this an uncommon?

[idraleo]

Because it impacts only legacy, standard or extended decks will never run a card such like this one...

[Aggro_zombies]

Because it impacts only legacy, standard or extended decks will never run a card such like this one...
As much as I want to deny this, it's true. Wizards only really tests Limited and Standard, and this is fine to meh in Limited and homeless in Standard.

Still, I don't think it's overpowered. Costing three mana is actually relevant to a traditional Threshold deck.

[C.P.]

Well, since UGx decks were turning to slower, but more powerful creatures anyway, Coatle seems perfect fit. It does seem really solid in the said archtype, too. It does seem better than tombstalker in decks that does not require BB otherwise(in that it is easier on your mana and solid in multiples).

[KillemallCFH]

I very much look forward to building a janky control deck running sets of this, Hoofprints, Sylvan Library, and Jace.

That being said, I'm still undecided on this card. I know it's at least somewhat powerful, but only testing will prove just how powerful.

[hi-val]

This is potentially the best card in the set for Legacy and might revolutionize blue control. It makes Sensei's Top all the better, since with a duplicate, you can do something like: top, draw step, brainstorm, top, top, top and swing in with a 10/10.

My greatest fear is people mispronouncing "Coatl," which is a Nahuatl word pronounced like "ko-wa-tul" and not like "kote-ul." I only bring this up because of all the poor "Nack-tals" roaming the Earth...

[Nightmare]

My greatest fear is people mispronouncing "Coatl," which is a Nahuatl word pronounced like "ko-wa-tul" and not like "kote-ul." I only bring this up because of all the poor "Nack-tals" roaming the Earth...

Whatever dude. Try being the only person on the planet who pronounces Adarkar Wastes properly.

a-DARK-arrrr, people.

[Peter_Rotten]

And while we're on the subject, screw Pithing Needle. Stupid people always saying Need-al instead of Need-el.

[Nightmare]

And while we're on the subject, screw Pithing Needle. Stupid people always saying Need-al instead of Need-el.

Lulz. Well played, sir.

[quicksilver]

Whatever dude. Try being the only person on the planet who pronounces Adarkar Wastes properly.

a-DARK-arrrr, people.

Also pretty sure Adarkar is a made up word, or at least extremly obscure.

Coatl is actually a real word taken from the Aztec for snake. And it is pronounced very similar to ko-wa-tul.

Also apparently the plural of Coatl is Cocoah (sounds like Koe-Koe-ah)

So I guess it would be correct to say "I have two Lorescale Cocoah in play"

[Peter_Rotten]

And the correct pronunciation is Tar-moe-GOOF.

[Zach Tartell]

I'm pretty sure that in the Popol Vuh 2 hunter and 12 hunter had to fight a band of Lorescale Cocoah to do whatever they were trying to.

Although I could very well be mistaken. It's either an eerie parallel of the book of Genesis or the prequel of the Alara Reborn magic book.

[Peter_Rotten]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this card is going to be as good as Countryside Crusher. Co-At-Tull dies to all the relevant Legacy removal AND ALL relevant burn spells unless you have a Brainstorm to protect it. Edict, Snuff Out, StP, Path, Deed, EE, and Wrath. You need to cast spells to make him good, so he is a rather mediocre top-deck. No cards in hand and you top-deck him? WOOT, I have a 2/2 for 3 mana. WOOT, I can chump Goyf. He realistically can't handle Tombstalker until you cast a Brainstorm. In fact, this card is starting to remind me of Forgotten Ancient.

[on1y0ne]

Also pretty sure Adarkar is a made up word, or at least extremly obscure.
Adarkar is the last name of a former Wizards employee. There was an article a few years back written by him where he tells a story about how someone tried to correct his pronunciation when he played and announced the land during a tournament game.
Also, Nightmare has the pronunciation correct. The "arrrrr" at the end is pronounced as if you were a pirate.

[URABAHN]

Whatever dude. Try being the only person on the planet who pronounces Adarkar Wastes properly.

a-DARK-arrrr, people.

You are not alone, my friend. On a related note, how do you all pronounce "Soldevi"?

I've heard Soul Dev Ee, I go with Soul Duh Vie.

[zulander]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this card is going to be as good as Countryside Crusher.

I think this is pretty accurate, however I think he's a bit better because it's easier to make this guy grow. What I'm trying to do is fit him and crusher in the same deck, so far it's been pretty ugly.

[ansset]

Try harder zu, and if that fails PM me for my list.

[Jeet]

Here is the final wording. From the Alara Reborn FAQ:

Lorescale Coatl
{1}{G}{U}
Creature -- Snake
2/2
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Lorescale Coatl.

* If a spell or ability causes you to draw multiple cards, Lorescale Coatl's ability triggers that many times.

* If a spell or ability causes you to put cards in your hand without specifically using the word "draw," Lorescale Coatl's ability won't trigger.

[majikal]

The more I think about this card, the more I am amazed by just how powerful it is.

[Eldariel]

I like this card much more than Goyf simply because every deck just can't cram it in and call it a day. That said, every deck with Ponder/Brainstorm/Top can. Still, it's nowhere near as omniplayable; sucks it had to cram its ugly scales into the one friggin' deck that didn't need better creatures though.

[Forbiddian]

This is ridiculous.



Also, it's 100x better than Countryside Crusher, if only because it's UG instead of RR. It also grows faster and more reliably. Without support it will always get +1/+1, and it's likely going to be thrown into decks with like:

4 Brainstorm
3-4 Ponder
4 Top

I just see plays like: Activate top, find Brainstorm. Brainstorm, fetchland, find Ponder. Ponder, find Brainstorm. Brainstorm....

I don't know if anybody remembers Vintage before they restricted Gush/Ponder/Brainstorm, but this really reeks of the same thing. But the scariest part is that it's not just a combo piece. Even with extremely limited draw support (very surprising, considering the decks this will go into have at least 10 draw spells), this creature gets big enough to tackle Tarmogoyf very quickly.

[Eldariel]

Let's not forget that it grows every turn too. It'll be at least 3/3 before it swings. And of course, Brainstorm means it's 6/6, Ponder 4/4 or Top 4/4. Then you draw some combination of the previous and you get something that's so fucking huge it could block the sun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL4T-aiuNdk&NR=1).

Then again, without help it's just a 3/3 that keeps growing, which is just fine. The problem is that you can actually draw extras...

[Aggro_zombies]

I love how the card is being made out to be this:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o226/jbrennan0512/TheNextTarmogoyf.jpg

That said, Coatl is good but not godly. NLU is the deck best equipped (currently) to accommodate it, because this guy really, really wants four mana up before you play him so that you can Brainstorm or Top-Draw in response to removal spells. Yes, he gets big, and yes, he'll go a long way towards breaking through Tarmogoyf fights, but he takes a little while to get there unless you've got the draw in hand. He's a better topdeck than Dryad because he'll grow on his own, but still not z0mg t3h nu+z.

Basically, he's very much like Countryside Crusher, but without the whole "fixing your draws" thing.

[majikal]

Only he's better than Countryside Crusher because you don't have to affect your draws or do anything other than what you would do normally if you are playing a deck that contains U and G.

[Mayk0l]

And while we're on the subject, screw Pithing Needle. Stupid people always saying Need-al instead of Need-el.

Stop whining, at least in your country, people don't say "Stiff-l" instead of Stifle. It drives me crazy.
And yeah, we get the Prague thing here too, Pitching Needle my ass. Oh, and not to mention the mispronunciation of Dark Confidant; the way they're putting it, you're surprised the confident Dark guy has only a toughness of 1. Then again, I guess I'd be pretty confident too if I swung for two. I think that would make my girlfriend happy too, because I usually just swing for one. I'm a modest guy, I guess. Then again, who needs the power to swing for two when you have awesome abilities like me.

Back on subject, this Coatl (which will no doubt become Koo-tol instead of Ko-wa-tal here, same thing as with Final Fantasy Quezacotl, which quickly become a blurry kwitsekotol), is great in a lot of ways. Maybe it's not as good as Goyf, and maybe he will make Thresh better, I'm ok with that. The scene should constantly be evolving. If everything were as static as say, Vintage, I'd get bored pretty quickly. I love to see archetypes come, go, and come back again. Thresh over here died back when Grunt was printed, it came back with a vengeance. I love that.
Coatl is cool. I am so hoping on good art.

[Phoenix Ignition]

That said, Coatl is good but not godly. NLU is the deck best equipped (currently) to accommodate it, because this guy really, really wants four mana up before you play him so that you can Brainstorm or Top-Draw in response to removal spells.

All those lightning bolts and chain lightning going around... oh wait, counter/top ate burn. So this new 2/2 dork goes in the deck that shuts down the removal you are talking about, and thus comes out turn 3. Even without countertop, how often do you actually see lightning bolt as removal?

If he's going to get StP there isn't that much of a reason to wait and play him with 4 mana (sure 3 extra life off brainstorm might make a difference sometime, but not in the first 3 turns of the game).



Yes, he gets big, and yes, he'll go a long way towards breaking through Tarmogoyf fights, but he takes a little while to get there unless you've got the draw in hand. He's a better topdeck than Dryad because he'll grow on his own, but still not z0mg t3h nu+z.

With a top out he's 5/5 the turn after you play him. That's already big enough to get there 80% of the time against goyf.


Basically, he's very much like Countryside Crusher, but without the whole "fixing your draws" thing.

Except he doesn't require 2 of the worst color in magic to play him. That and he pitches to FoW which is very relevant. If they made him just mono green he'd be worse, since in the decks he's going in, FoW is an auto include. Pretty damn good if you ask me.

I still hope he's spoiled incorrectly. I really don't think they needed to make a better creature than goyf, in goyf's main deck color, they just needed to ban goyf.

[majikal]

With a top out he's 5/5 the turn after you play him. That's already big enough to get there 80% of the time against goyf.

LOL I forgot about topping at the upkeep! Wow what a dumb card.

[libingboy]

I still hope he's spoiled incorrectly. I really don't think they needed to make a better creature than goyf, in goyf's main deck color, they just needed to ban goyf.

The ARB set FAQ is already available.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules/faqs

Final wording is:

Lorescale Coatl
{1}{G}{U}
Creature -- Snake
2/2
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Lorescale Coatl.

along with the following notes.

* If a spell or ability causes you to draw multiple cards, Lorescale Coatl's ability triggers that many times.

* If a spell or ability causes you to put cards in your hand without specifically using the word "draw," Lorescale Coatl's ability won't trigger.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this card is going to be as good as Countryside Crusher.

Correct. And Countryside Crusher gave Aggro Loam a significant power bump. What's this thing going to do to FoW/Goyf decks, I can only wonder.

[spirit of the wretch]

What I'm asking myself as a Thresh player is:
How does this card help my bad MUs? Especially against Tribal Aggro or Goyf Sligh I don't see how this card effects my MU too much in my favor (compared to the War Monk for example). If CB/Goyf.decs wanted another fat beater, why not simply go with Terravore? Granted, it doesn't pitch to Force and is a litte harder on the mana, but it tramples and doesn't die to a f**cking Shock...
My point is, that the Snake neither really provide any utility (unlike War Monk or Trygon), nor can it compete with the raw power of Terravore.
I may be wrong and if I am I will gladly eat my words, but I don't see this thing beeing too big in Thresh!
Now you can go on flaming me for not understanding the format =)

[C.P.]

@ Pronunciation Nazis:

Screw all of you. Do you know how hard learning English is when your first language is not a close relative of English? Stop butchering east Asian languages and I may listen to you.

EDIT: Right, I'm talking to you, Ani-mii and Meng-ga people. Also to the people who cannot handle Asian names ever.

This Card may not be second coming of Jesus, but it at least is a solid addition to UGx cantrip archetype. However, with this guy added, Goblins actually can be faster than NLU due to the curve issues. They just need to put ports back in to their manabase.

[undone]

The thing is that this card is falsely disguised as a 3/3 or a 4/4 when in reality it is disguised as a 5/5 +

Being vulnerable to removal for 1 turn is irrelivant when force is in the format and he is hard to counterbalance (Which is aquard that he will round out the 3CC slot nicely in said decks) Decks with 10 draw spells (counting top) make this stupidly absurd.

Also snake is tipicaly bigger than terravore in thresh, terravore is generaly a 7/7 ish by late game and a 3/3ish early game. This gets bigger faster and makes double top back breaking to the point where it is a ligitiment answer to dreadnaught and terravores.

Side note, I believe sower of temptation will be the new popular girl because of this + goyf, instead of being a 2 of in NLU they will be a 4 of in several decks.

[Peter_Rotten]

Screw all of you. Do you know how hard learning English is when your first language is not a close relative of English? Stop butchering east Asian languages and I may listen to you.

Bah! I'm American. I only speak American and ignore all other lesser languages.

[FoolofaTook]

Correct. And Countryside Crusher gave Aggro Loam a significant power bump. What's this thing going to do to FoW/Goyf decks, I can only wonder.

Tarmogoyf answers tribal aggro early on but is no longer the primary finisher, since Lorescale Serpent is now bigger in many cases in the critical midgame turns. Trinket Mage can go and get Sensei's Divining Top, Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives and even Chalice of the Void. Sower of Temptation is more valuable than ever since there's another cheap mega-beater now.

I think Lorescale Coatl has opened up the NLU and Threshold archetypes to a lot of experimentation as people try to get the mix right. It's not inconceivable that Tarmogoyf will be seen as too brittle to survive in the build when all is said and done. There's no way to shrink a Lorescale Coatl back down to small size suddenly, like Tarmogoyf can be reduced. Goyf doesn't pitch to Force of Will either.

I think this a great move on WotC's part. Now they just need to figure out how to get blue under control after gorging them for 2 years with cheap reinforcements.

[quicksilver]

I agree this guy is no trmogoyf. He will not see nearly the amount of play because he is far mroe narrow than tarmogofy. I agree that he seems pretty similar to countryside crusher, only instead of loam he is played in thresh. I do think one of his main pluses over some of the other options is that he can pitch to force of will. I have been running 2 doran in thresh and the only thing i wished they could do is pitch to force. I am going to try two of these in the doran slot and I think they will be an inprovement in large because of that reason.

[TheCramp]

It's not inconceivable that Tarmogoyf will be seen as too brittle to survive in the build when all is said and done. There's no way to shrink a Lorescale Coatl back down to small size suddenly, like Tarmogoyf can be reduced. Goyf doesn't pitch to Force of Will either.


What? Seriously? too brittle? There sure is a way to shrink Coatl, bounce. (for what that's worth.) I don't think the sky is falling, but UG gets a monster this time around. Anyone read Nassif's report? Remember how he said Trygon's best feature was costing 3 and being blue? yeah...

[eq.firemind]

Another afwuly boring card. Maybe it's powerful, but I HATE cards are so dumb to play. And it's again the boost for the most popular archtype. Totally shit!

Tarmo is still the people's champion 'cause no-:u: decks can run it.

[quicksilver]

Another afwuly boring card. Maybe it's powerful, but I HATE cards are so dumb to play. And it's again the boost for the most popular archtype. Totally shit!

Tarmo is still the people's champion 'cause no-:u: decks can run it.

What? Tarmogoyf has been described as "the best blue creature ever." Why? Because blue can easily splash him and does. Tarmogoyf is most abused in blue decks and has given blue a significant power boost.

[survival]

he probably meant that even nonblue decks can run it.

[FoolofaTook]

What? Seriously? too brittle? There sure is a way to shrink Coatl, bounce. (for what that's worth.) I don't think the sky is falling, but UG gets a monster this time around. Anyone read Nassif's report? Remember how he said Trygon's best feature was costing 3 and being blue? yeah...

Commonly played spells that effect Tarmogoyf but not Lorescale Serpent: EE@2 (Thresh becomes less vulnerable to this if Counterbalance and the main threat are not both 2cc), Relic of Progenitus (tempo play to alpha strike against Goyfs, which probably are forced to block and thus go away), Chalice of the Void@2, Threads of Disloyalty, maybe a few others I missed.

Commonly played sideboard spells that effect Lorescale Serpent but not Tarmogoyf: Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, maybe bounce, although that also effects goyf in some situations - like when whatever is coming back down is getting CounterTopped and goyf is a much easier target than Lorescale Serpent.

Cards that work very well with Lorescale Serpent but are neutral with goyf: Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library (the big comeback card if Lorescale Serpent is printed with it's current wording.)

Cards that work very well with both but maybe somewhat better with Lorescale Serpent: Force of Will, Ponder (always +1/+1 with Lorescale Serpent whenever it is drawn, +1/+1 with goyf once if no other sorceries are in a graveyard yet), Counterbalance (3cc spells are usually in short supply in a CBTop deck - so Lorescale Serpent firms the deck up a little against midrange).

I think blue is going to fit Lorescale Serpent in just fine in most builds. The meta may adjust by playing more bounce, but that doesn't hurt blue because they have the best bounce available and counters to stop it from happening anyway if it's actually a critical event.

Adding a creature that just keeps growing naturally until removed is a fairly ridiculous effect to have given blue in my opinion.

[C.P.]

Commonly played spells that effect Tarmogoyf but not Lorescale Serpent: EE@2 (Thresh becomes less vulnerable to this if Counterbalance and the main threat are not both 2cc), Relic of Progenitus (tempo play to alpha strike against Goyfs, which probably are forced to block and thus go away), Chalice of the Void@2, Threads of Disloyalty, maybe a few others I missed.

None of this beats the fact that goyf is a fat right here and right now once you cast it, as opposed to Grey Ogre on turn 3/topdeck mode.

[Peter_Rotten]

Goyf is also an amazing attacker AND defender. This Coat-tail creature sucks if you are on the defensive. Slapping down a Goyf changes the game state in a big way. This guy? Not so much.

[ReAnimator]

This guy is nuts, and i don't buy the "he is only a 2/2 right off the bat" that only applies if it is turn 3 and you don't have a top in play (or 2). Any time after turn 3 he has the potential to be much larger right off the bat, even if you are bluffing. The fact that this guy powers up redundant tops is also very relevant, that card is really strong already and it just got better.


Bah! I'm American. I only speak American and ignore all other lesser languages.

Like English.

You Americans and your "we don't need unnecessary U's in our version of words" also your re and er switching.

[FoolofaTook]

None of this beats the fact that goyf is a fat right here and right now once you cast it, as opposed to Grey Ogre on turn 3/topdeck mode.


Goyf is also an amazing attacker AND defender. This Coat-tail creature sucks if you are on the defensive. Slapping down a Goyf changes the game state in a big way. This guy? Not so much.

These are both true statements. Nonetheless there are going to be times, and decks, when Lorescale Serpent is a better draw than Tarmogoyf.

Turn 1 - Sensei's Divining Top
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3 - Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4- Attack for 6.
Turn 5 - Attack for 10.

As an example. That's a blue aggro-control scenario that is just as strong as anything Threshold can put out now. Note that on turn 6 you are laughing at Dreadstill's lack of removal as your 14/14 Coatl goes in for the kill.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Not to mention any instant speed card drawing spell/ability is now a combat trick. I don't see any (legacy viable) way to suddenly give goyf +3/+3 in the middle of battle, but with this guy in play, brainstorm is now a blue giant growth that cantrips.

[FoolofaTook]

I actually over-reached a bit on the scenario above. That is a great opening but it's more suited to an aggro deck than an aggro-control one. Aggro-control tends to cantrip on turn 1 to find the land to keep going, or alternately holds mana open for Stifle or something similar.

Here's the scenario as I think it would actually play out in most cases:

Turn 1 - Ponder
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3 - Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4 - Attack for 5
Turn 5 - Attack for 8

Your Brainstorm scenario works well in there on turn 4 and 5 with no other mana commitments required during those turns.

The thing about Coatl is that he does work so well with Sensei's Divining Top, which does work so well with Counterbalance, and he does work so well with Ponder and Brainstorm, which also work so well in bue aggro-control, and he does work just so wonderfully with Sylvan Library, which now has a reason to be in blue aggro-control where it will be a beast of a card because it lets you dig for no mana after your initial investment and it lets you pay life to get that one card buried 3 deep on turn 3 that you would not survive without.

Coatl is just too synergistic with the CounterTop meta at this point not to be a major player. Whether or not Tarmogoyf eventually gets downgraded is not clear, because he too is a beast - just a more limited one in the end.

[Peter_Rotten]

Turn 1 - Sensei's Divining Top
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3 - Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4- Attack for 6.
Turn 5 - Attack for 10.

This seems weak. You didn't attack until turn 4! This scenario assumes too much. To be clearer, what was your opponent doing during that time? Did he cast a Dreadnaught? Did he attempt to StP or otherwise kill the Coat-tail? Were you able to protect? Did he chump your attack and then swing in with an early Tombstalker? Did he combo out? Did you pay life for Library? Did Library get Dazed (Coat-tail seems pretty crappy now)? Did he get Sowered on Turn 4?

Granted, he seems decent in this goldfish scenario - but ONLY decent. But if we're going to spend a bunch of resources to make a card good, why not play Stiffle-Not?

I guess why I see this card as rather lackluster is that you MUST spend resources for it to be a good creature. Now, of course, in Thresh, these are resources you'll be using anyway (specifically BStorm, Top, and Ponder), but really where am I going to fit him in the deck?

My bet: Players will be disappointed with this card. Hell, it might even be hanging out in your binder with Hoofprints of the Stag.

With all that being said, he is a perfect fit for my Slippery Boggle deck.

[TheRock]

Here's an issue with Coatl - you have to justify running cards like Trygon Predator, Vendilion Clique, Mystic Enforcer, Jenara, Fledgling Dragon, Sea Drake, Tombstalker, Werebear, and even Nimble Mongoose (granted, many of these are older examples of course) over him in a format where people just aren't going to let you get to threshold all that often and many of the rest of them require three or more mana too.

The truth is that he's a better raw, non-evasive clock in a Threshold mirror than any of those other cards. He swings through Goyf and he can block Goyf - isn't that good enough?

[quicksilver]

Also the new set is in the Gatherer database.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179633

The picture is nothing special, just a snake on a branch, meh.

Odd they did not give this creature a job, it's creature type is just plain old snake.

[Peter_Rotten]

The truth is that he's a better raw, non-evasive clock in a Threshold mirror than any of those other cards. He swings through Goyf and he can block Goyf - isn't that good enough?

He CAN swing through Goyf - if you have a Brainstorm after you have played him or have 4 turns to sit around. In a Thresh mirror, I think that I'd rather play Goose since the usual Thresh deck runs StP as removal.

Coat-tail + Brainstorm = pretty good even though it won't happen until turn 4.

Coat-tail + Ponder = meh.

Coat-tail + Top = meh.

Coat-tail + 2 Tops = ok IF you have extra mana.

Coat-tail + draw step = totally meh.

IMO, he gets big too late and for too much.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Odd they did not give this creature a job, it's creature type is just plain old snake.

This makes no sense to me from a flavor standpoint. How does a plain old snake benefit from you remembering spells? Mystic Snake is also just a snake, but atleast in the picture it justifies its abilites (it scares you spell-less!)

[Vimes]

However, it's worth noting that every Swords they use on your Coatls is a Swords they don't use on your Goyfs.

[quicksilver]

This makes no sense to me from a flavor standpoint. How does a plain old snake benefit from you remembering spells? Mystic Snake is also just a snake, but atleast in the picture it justifies its abilites (it scares you spell-less!)

It's it's scales, they remember the "lore" of the spells.

"The enlightenment I never found in etherium I have found traced in the coatl's scales."

[Misplayer]

I'm taking P_R's side on this one (as if my opinion carries any weight). I think this won't be an auto-include in Thresh/NLU for the same reasons I said about Jenara: Trygon, Confidant, and Sower all outclass it because overpowered utility > X/X beater, and you already have Goyf to do your beating/blocking when necessary. Maybe this will end up being better than those cards, but I think at best it serves as Goyf 5-6.

However, when you're piloting Thresh and you're digging for a Goyf and wishing you had extra copies, it's usually because you're losing (more often than not to an opposing Goyf) and you need a wall. In this scenario, when having Goyf 5-6 is most useful, Coatl comes up short. Coatl is best in the early game, and personally I would rather be playing Dark Confidant turn 2 and winning the game with it than playing this thing and going aggro. I'm not saying the card sucks, and I'm not saying that it won't make the cut, I'm just not sold on it from a purely hypothetical standpoint.

[Peter_Rotten]

Coatl is best in the early game.

Ditto. And let's keep in mind that his good "early game" doesn't start until turn 4!

Hell, let's start running this guy (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=24802). He gets HUGE-AH for simply casting spells and Thresh runs a BUNCH of free spells. Also, he gets counters when your OPPONENT casts spells! Plus, you get to move those counters to your good creatures (aka Goyf).

Unfortunately, he doesn't pitch to FoW.

[quicksilver]

Coatl can also be pretty good in the late game if you have two tops. A nantuko shade that doesn't shirink back down end of turn.

[FoolofaTook]

This seems weak. You didn't attack until turn 4! This scenario assumes too much. To be clearer, what was your opponent doing during that time? Did he cast a Dreadnaught? Did he attempt to StP or otherwise kill the Coat-tail? Were you able to protect? Did he chump your attack and then swing in with an early Tombstalker? Did he combo out? Did you pay life for Library? Did Library get Dazed (Coat-tail seems pretty crappy now)? Did he get Sowered on Turn 4?

Granted, he seems decent in this goldfish scenario - but ONLY decent. But if we're going to spend a bunch of resources to make a card good, why not play Stiffle-Not?

I guess why I see this card as rather lackluster is that you MUST spend resources for it to be a good creature. Now, of course, in Thresh, these are resources you'll be using anyway (specifically BStorm, Top, and Ponder), but really where am I going to fit him in the deck?

My bet: Players will be disappointed with this card. Hell, it might even be hanging out in your binder with Hoofprints of the Stag.

With all that being said, he is a perfect fit for my Slippery Boggle deck.

I have to ask here: how often does goyf do enough damage before turn 4 to make a huge difference in the overall damage the two will do? My experience is that he lands as a 2-3 on turn 2 (sometimes, although often on turn 3 as a 3-4 or 4-5 for other reasons) and doesn't usually attack on turn 3 for very much even assuming he landed on turn 2.

My gut feeling is that the two will do equal damage though turn 5 or so and then Coatl will be better assuming no removal. Obviously goyf 2 is going to make up some of the difference assuming graveyards aren't interfered with in the interim, however it's not clear you're going to get to goyf 2 if goyf 1 was eventually reduced to chump-blocking something bigger than him across the table.

We'll have to see how it plays out. I suppose the odds are that people will initially go 4x Tarmogoyf and 3x Lorescale Coatl (likely replacing Nimble Mongoose completely) and we'll see how the two play side by side.

[quicksilver]

Anyone planning on playing this in a bauble deck?

[Peter_Rotten]

Anyone planning on playing this in a bauble deck?

ROFL! Sweet tech!

@Fool: But Goyf CAN come down on turn 2 and he gets bigger from playing spells - not just DRAW spells. Hell, Goyf could be the only spell I play that game and he still could be huge. Playing Goyf on turn 5 will 95% of the time (I did a study) be a scarier play than playing Coat-tail. That being said, of course I realize that you are not arguing for Goyfs exclusion for this guy. Maybe we should really shift the discussion to WHAT to replace in Thresh. I'd hate to see Goose go for this guy. A critter base in the typical UGW could look like 4Goose/4Goyf/2Coat-tail (replacing Enforcer). But even then, I might prefer the Enforcer for messing with Snuff Out and Tombstalker.

[C.P.]

I have to ask here: how often does goyf do enough damage before turn 4 to make a huge difference in the overall damage the two will do? My experience is that he lands as a 2-3 on turn 2 (sometimes, although often on turn 3 as a 3-4 or 4-5 for other reasons) and doesn't usually attack on turn 3 for very much even assuming he landed on turn 2.

My gut feeling is that the two will do equal damage though turn 5 or so and then Coatl will be better assuming no removal.

In goldfish, yes. But consider the following on turn 3:

2/2: Swing!
Coatle: No blocks. Wait until I get that counters!
2/2: BTW, bolt you.
Coatle: *Facepalm*


2/2: Swing!
Goyf: Block?
2/2: I'm not going to die alone, bolt you!
Goyf: 2 for 1, I'll take.

Which one looks better on defence? Remeber the main resaon that Thresh could be the best deck was the fact that the Goyf was good on D so the deck can handle goblins.

[4eak]

Back from testing some more. Just a few scattered (but relevant) comments:

I've been retooling Thresh and NLU decks to suit Coatl. You are definitely going to have to play a more long-term control role to get your mileage out of Coatl (moving towards NLU, ITF and very aggressive Landstill). The more of the control role you play, the better the card gets.

Very playable cards, and not auto-includes (StP, Force, etc.), that got much better with Coatl.

Spell Snare
Path to Exile
Engineered Explosives
Vedalken Shackles
Academy Ruins
Pernicious Deed
Intuition/Loam/Late-game.cards

Daze is a tricky card in decks where Coatl belongs. I've found it worth playing, but others honestly might not. Spell Snare was a very reasonable replacement if you weren't already running it.

Also, his mana cost and the control playstyle to which he lends himself pushes you towards a higher land count. 19-land min, 20-land preferred.

Sylvan Library was a waste. It was win-more. It jockeyed for role-position with Top, and while you can shuffle Top away, you can't shuffle Library away as easily. With Top remaining the fundamental piece to CB, Library lacks a real role. CB/Top and 4x BS/Ponder with no library has been best in testing.

I have to say, like Tarmogoyf, Coatl is a card that your opponent must answer. While he lacks the immediate defensive qualities of Tarmogoyf on first entering play, living for a single turn usually puts him to 4/4 or better. Offensively, as just a raw win condition, Coatl has usually been better than Tarmogoyf. He has been a very powerful bluff card as well. The fact that StP hits this card just makes the rest of your threats that would have received it a little bit safer.

My record with him (I was in a tight spot): 2/2 to 18/18 in one turn (that was a cool one-shot).

He is also anywhere from a 'meh' decent card to perhaps a serious piece of shit to see in your opening grip. I've been running 4 to maximize my playtesting with the card, but running 3 may be the optimal choice when you have 12x Cantrips (Top/BS/P). At least the card pitches to Force (and that rocks).

He is a damn fine card (better than I originally thought, although I was pretty skeptical). You can drop'n'forget the card or play excellent combat tricks with him. He grows much faster than you would initially think. I'm an odd one though. As situationally amazing as Nimble Mongoose can be, I think the card really lacks value in Thresh, especially in any variety that is edging towards the control role. Coatl does effectively replace Goose in control-heavy decks.

Also, for g2/3, we shouldn't neglect the fact that Coatl's p/t has nothing to do with your graveyard. That has been nice.





peace,
4eak

[quicksilver]

I've been running a list with 2 Dorans which I am going to replace with two Lorescale Cocoah. I think the list is pretty strong.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Sensei's Divining top
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Lorescale Coatl
2 Vindicate
4 Force of Will
2 Tombstalker

[FoolofaTook]

The problem that I have with the overall analysis of the two is that I don't find the difference between goyf and coatl defensively on turn 3 to be all that big a deal. Basically there are a few situations where you might win a game if you have a 2/3 or bigger blocker on turn 2 or turn 3, a few situations where it just doesn't matter which one you landed - because you're dying anyway, and the vast majority of the situations where the *defensive* value of the two is just a negligible factor that isn't decisive one way or the other.

The question that I have, and the answer is not clear to me, is whether Lorescale Coatl gives Threshold (and NLU generally) a high-octane aggro option that it does not currently have. The question is completely independent of whether or not coatl or goyf is actually more valuable in the deck.

[quicksilver]

I think the coatl's lack of defensive abilities early in the game is a big deal. I think it is the main drawback of the card.

[FoolofaTook]

Also, for g2/3, we shouldn't neglect the fact that Coatl's p/t has nothing to do with your graveyard. That has been nice.

REB and Pyroblast. That's where I think he gets weaker game 2 and 3. The opponent gets to tune in the things he wants to hit your draw, your counters and one of your major threats.

[undone]

The problem that I have with the overall analysis of the two is that I don't find the difference between goyf and coatl defensively on turn 3 to be all that big a deal. Basically there are a few situations where you might win a game if you have a 2/3 or bigger blocker on turn 2 or turn 3, a few situations where it just doesn't matter which one you landed - because you're dying anyway, and the vast majority of the situations where the *defensive* value of the two is just a negligible factor that isn't decisive one way or the other.

The question that I have, and the answer is not clear to me, is whether Lorescale Coatl gives Threshold (and NLU generally) a high-octane aggro option that it does not currently have. The question is completely independent of whether or not coatl or goyf is actually more valuable in the deck.

Its not an OR its a "Coatl and goyf are actualy valueable together in the deck" No one will drop goyf for this save the very stupid. The card compliments goyf but discourages goose, it seems they like canadian thresh less than CT thresh. In essence I think this will see play consitentaly as a 2 of prehaps as a 3 of because its just so big, black cant beat it without removal and that means its protecting goyf which is a good thing.

[FoolofaTook]

I think the coatl's lack of defensive abilities early in the game is a big deal. I think it is the main drawback of the card.

How often do you face a creature-oriented game-ending threat that Tarmogoyf would save you from as opposed to having nobody on the board on turn 2? How often is the difference between having a 3/4 down and having a 2/2 on turn 3 decisive?

Goblin Lackey is about the only thing that I can think of that qualifies as a must-answer blockable threat that early.

[quicksilver]

How often do you face a creature-oriented game-ending threat that Tarmogoyf would save you from as opposed to having nobody on the board on turn 2? How often is the difference between having a 3/4 down and having a 2/2 on turn 3 decisive?

Goblin Lackey is about the only thing that I can think of that qualifies as a must-answer blockable threat that early.

Often. Against zoo for example a turn two goyf is far superior to a turn 3 coatl, game breakingly so. This is true for almost any similar agro deck. Of course you wouldn't be cuting goyf for this. So the reall comparison I think is comparing it to the card you would cut. In this specific scenario I would be cutting doran for the coatl, and in this scenario i think doran would be better. However in overall matchups I think the coatl would be better.

[Barook]

It's really bad that all snake-related tribal cards suck so much - just imagine what this (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/chk/241.jpg) could do if it was reasonable costed.

[quicksilver]

We really don't need yet another tribal deck. I am very happy with that guy costing 6 mana, he would be broken if he cost less.

[Peter_Rotten]

We really don't need yet another tribal deck. I am very happy with that guy costing 6 mana, he would be broken if he cost less.

Oh snap! I'm building an EDH deck.

(wow - that guy sucks for EDH too!)

[Malchar]

I haven't been following thresh/CB that much lately. My first impression with Coatl is that it could help out UG thresh/CB, if that deck even exists anymore. You can get a reasonable creature in addition to goyf without going white (enforcer) or black (tombstalker). If you are playing it in 3 or 4 color thresh/cb, now you can play a reasonable creature without having to fetch your non UG duals. You could pack more basics, etc.

If we learned anything from tarmogoyf it's that fatties with no other abilities are good.

[georgjorge]

Like...Brassman's deck ?

I keep thinking something along the lines of

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Serpent
3 Vendillion Clique


Notable: Neither Shackles nor Threads can take this guy...but sideboarded Mind Harness can :smile: (wouldn't have to keep it around for long I guess).

[FoolofaTook]

I haven't been following thresh/CB that much lately. My first impression with Coatl is that it could help out UG thresh/CB, if that deck even exists anymore. You can get a reasonable creature in addition to goyf without going white (enforcer) or black (tombstalker). If you are playing it in 3 or 4 color thresh/cb, now you can play a reasonable creature without having to fetch your non UG duals. You could pack more basics, etc.

If we learned anything from tarmogoyf it's that fatties with no other abilities are good.

I'm thinking that since it's blue you get a benefit when you remove Nimble Mongoose for it. I'm going to try pulling Ponders for Sylvan Library with the extra blue from the creature base making up the difference.

I really think the Sylvan Library-Lorescale Coatl combo is going to be pretty strong. Between Brainstorm and Sylvan Library you have 8 ways in the deck to give coatl +3/+3 and Sylvan Library does it as a permanent every turn. It's definitely not win-more given that the Sylvan will land early and before coatl and help dig for what you need. People probably haven't used it recently so they don't remember what it was like to keep 3 cards on turn 3 and refill your hand for 8 life.

[Volt]

Sylvan Library's utility overlaps with Sensei's Divining Top quite a bit. The problem is that -synergy with Coatl notwithstanding- SDT is clearly a better card than Sylvan Library.

[FoolofaTook]

Sylvan Library's utility overlaps with Sensei's Divining Top quite a bit. The problem is that -synergy with Coatl notwithstanding- SDT is clearly a better card than Sylvan Library.

Sensei's Divining Top is not coming out for Sylvan Library, Ponder is.

4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Sylvan Library

That's a lot of dig in the deck and Sylvan Library doesn't require mana each turn to do it the way that Sensei's Divining Top does, so they fulfill a similar dig function with SDT actually costing more to be a bit more effective.

Two Sylvan Libraries in play will allow you to draw 2 extra cards twice with the first resolving fully before the second is resolved. This will only let you look at the same cards you just put back, unless you choose to keep 1 or more of the extras in the first pull, in which case you would look at one or more new cards in the second. A Lorescale Coatl would be +5/+5 for the turn at the end of the second pull. So like SDT's extra Sylvans are not a dead draw with a Lorescale Coatl on the table.

The other thing that's kind of nice about Sylvan Library compared to Ponder is that the opponent kind of needs to live with it as a permanent draw/filter source for you, since spending precious removal on it would be unwise against a deck playing Counterbalance.

You can also keep a 2cc spell on top of your deck forever with Sylvan Library in play, or alternately know what is on top of your deck. It's not that hard to figure out what to leave on top against most opponents early on until Sylvan Library finds you a Top to go with Counterbalance.

[Volt]

Playing 4 Tops + 4 Libraries seems kinda terrible.

[majikal]

Sylvan Library's utility overlaps with Sensei's Divining Top quite a bit. The problem is that -synergy with Coatl notwithstanding- SDT is clearly a better card than Sylvan Library.
Agreed. Ponder is still necessary for the shuffle effect, anyway, so you can maximize SDT abuse.

[FoolofaTook]

Playing 4 Tops + 4 Libraries seems kinda terrible.

Maybe 7 of them between them would be better. Having a permanent that digs on the table by turn 2 in most of your games seems to me to be a positive thing for a deck that wants to exploit Counterbalance and wants to exploit draws the way Lorescale Coatl does.

Think of it as the latest evolution in the Kill Filter engine. Instead of cantripping like mad to get to your power cards you're dropping a permanent to dig down to them. Fetchlands still work for the reshuffle effect, the deck actually operates more proactively in the 3 to 6 turn range since mana does not need to be left open for Top some of the time, and you still get to your power very quickly with all the dig.

[majikal]

Not a fan of the idea. Ponder is the only sorcery in the deck, and removing it just makes Goyf worse.

[FoolofaTook]

Not a fan of the idea. Ponder is the only sorcery in the deck, and removing it just makes Goyf worse.

For both you and your opponent, making Lorescale Coatl better. Unless they'd like to provide the Ponder, Chain Lightning, Thoughtseize or whatever to grow both of your goyfs out to full size.

[majikal]

For both you and your opponent, making Lorescale Coatl better. Unless they'd like to provide the Ponder, Chain Lightning, Thoughtseize or whatever to grow both of your goyfs out to full size.
Wouldn't it make more sense not to rely solely on the Coatl?

I'll sleeve it up and test it regardless, but it still seems like a bad idea.

edit: Foils are already going for around $8 apiece! Wow.

[monstre]

You may want to change this thread's title at some point to reflect the card's actual name.

[Forbiddian]

This card is pretty unfair.


After playing just ~10 games and a few goldfishes with this card, I have come to the conclusion that Legacy will be crappy with this card legal.

There's simply no reason not to play UG Thresh. And more specifically CB/Top thresh with this and a ton of draw spells clogging up the deck. I don't see any room for creativity. Threshold shell already has all the tools required to abuse this card. This card also solves the problems for Threshold:

1) Lack of great creatures outside of Tarmogoyf in general. You really need to run 10ish creatures at least so that the creatures can support each other and get around the very cheap, very efficient 4-of answers that your opponent packs. People were filling these slots with crap. Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, recently Trygon Predator are not good creatures and essentially just filler. Coatl turns the worst slots in Thresh into the best slots.

2) Graveyard dependence. With Tarmogoyf and Mongooses and maybe Enforcers or something, Relic is an extremely strong card, and people are getting wise to that and running Relic en masse. Coatl simply does not care (and Goyf will eventually grow back).

3) Lack of a strong midgame-endgame card that could trump opponent's Goyfs. Decks like Team America, Eva Green, etc. were simply running their own Goyfs and standing up the red zone. These Goyf-splash decks simply stand no chance as they'll lose every single Goyf standoff to a deck packing Coatl. Tombstalkers and even Dreadnoughts were used to very strong effect during a Goyf standoff by other decks to beat up on Threshold's lack of a trump spell.

Now, there's Coatl. Tombstalker and even Dreadnought can get beaten by this. Threshold no longer has to look out for getting trumped. It no longer has to win the early game. It's simply extremely powerful at every level of the game. You don't have to turn to Mystic Enforcer anymore.



The main difference is that other cards coming in helped crappy decks become competitive. Thresh is already dominant, and people have been trying to crack it for years. Recently we got Relic, but Coatl definitely undoes Relic by removing graveyard dependency. Even if you disagree with me that Coatl will doom Legacy to mirror matchups (at the very least, destroying virtually every non-Thresh tier 1 deck), you have to notice that Coatl is different from anything we've seen recently, because it helps an already dominant deck.




Anyway, let's clear up some misconceptions:

"Coatl is just KotR #2." No. First of all, KotR is a piece of shit and I don't think anybody actually thought it'd be good (especially after maybe playtesting it). Coatl grows faster and doesn't have to tap to get huge. It's MUCH better.

Secondly, KotR was going to be good in a fringe deck. Sorry AggroLoam fans, but AggroLoam has not been Tier 1 since at least Ad Nauseum, and the white splash does not make the deck more relevant. Even if AggroLoam got much better, it'd be at most like a borderline tier 1 deck.

Coatl fits right into the best deck in the format already and makes it much better. Sure, Nassif Threshold / Baseruption/NLU (whatever you call it) is not clearly established as the best deck, but I don't think there are any other possible contenders.

(I think that Countryside Crusher also fits into this category. The comparison to Coatl is valid, but the shells are not even in the same league. Without Countryside Crusher, AggroLoam would not be competitive. Even with CC, it's pretty borderline tier 2. Coatl's shell destroys everything and Coatl does make Thresh significantly better).

"This card is worse than Tarmogoyf." I can't believe someone posted this as an argument. It's totally irrelevant because they go in the SAME DECK. Everyone who could would run like 15 goyfs. Well, Coatl puts you that much closer.

"This card is just like Ad Nauseum, remember when people thought it would ruin the game?" Probably, but again, Ad Nauseum helped out a tier 2+ deck. SI and Iggy/Pop weren't even the dominant combo decks when Ad Nauseum came out. Definitely the props go to Ichorid. It was about as fast, more consistent, and harder to disrupt. Ad Nauseum let Tendrils combo blow Ichorid away and become much better, but it's still possible to disrupt.

I'll admit that I thought Ad Nauseum would flip the format upside down, but even I saw back then that answers existed. I thought Ad Nauseum would ruin the game because I didn't imagine that it'd bump Ichorid out of contention. As it stood, everyone just went: -8 gy hate, +8 storm combo hate and life was back to normal.


But again, this card is going to get played in and greatly help the strongest deck in the format. We already can't crack Nassif Thresh. The raw power level just lets it blow past all the tier two decks no matter what they do, and even the tier 1 decks have to make big changes to deal with Nassif Thresh.

Nassif Thresh just became that much better, and that much more centralized.


4x Goyf.
4x Coatl.
4x Bob (or whatever, Sower, Tombstalker, w/e)

4x CB
4x Top

4x Swords or Snuff Out
4x BS
2-4x Ponder
4x Force
2-4x Daze

20 land.

I don't see how you could not run that. Or more to the point: I don't see how any modern deck can deal with that.

[majikal]

As much as I enjoy playing with the Coatl at the moment, there is a little nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me that the shit is nuts busted, so I'm inclined to half-agree with Forbiddian.

However, the difference is... I don't think they should or will ban anything at least until next Spring, if then. The reason is, they have shown us that they are willing to do something about Tarmogoyf by printing this creature. They are encouraging more removal, more effects like Sower of Temptation and Oblivion Ring, and in general forcing our hands in shifting the metagame. If the next block doesn't power up some other deck, I will be surprised. I feel like everything is moving towards correcting itself.

[4eak]

@ FoolofaTook


Sensei's Divining Top is not coming out for Sylvan Library, Ponder is.

From testing, I can't see more than 2x Library in the deck. It costs a lot for what you get. It just isn't up to par with the other 2cc spells in the deck.

Ponder is staying in the deck. It's extremely undercosted, immediate, and next to top, it might just be the best turn 1 play in the deck. Ponder's ability to shuffle is just too powerful to pass up.

Ponder becomes more necessary for Coatl combat plays involving Brainstorm. If you are saving Brainstorm, and you'll still want to be digging and shuffling, then Ponder will be filling in the gaps.

Library is usually win-more, just like Top + Top is going to be win-more most of the time. Save your mana and card slots for Ponder. It is the necessary spell when you are in tight positions or when you are losing, while Library will not be helping you nearly as well in those positions.




peace,
4eak

[Forbiddian]

I've had this discussion before, but in brief: If they ban anything, it'll be Brainstorm/Ponder/Top.



Wizards has established that they'll ban the non-creature part of a "combo" regardless of if the creature is the degenerate part or not.

Mask/Nought: Mask is certainly not broken. The most you could do is like mask in a Haunted Horror.

Flash/Hulk: Hulk is definitely the busted part of the combo. Flash is a turd.

EDIT: I thought of the counterexample Worldgorger Dragon, but I'm nearly 100% sure they would have simply axed Animate Dead were it the only animate enchantment. As is, they had to deal with Necromancy, Animate Dead, and Dance of the Dead, so banning just the Dragon was the obvious economical decision.


And then in vintage, Gush/Brainstorm/Ponder fiasco, which I think is absolutely identical to this problem.



But again, the bottom line is: It's totally irrelevant whether the creature is "busted" or not. The problem is that it fits so perfectly in an already dominant deck that people have been working very hard at least the last two months after Chicago to crack. At the very least, LSV thought it was the best deck in the format two months ago, and it's only gotten much much better with this card and nothing has been printed that I see to slow it down (and there's no prospect of better non-basic hate at least for the next three sets before shards rotates).

I tend to think that the creature is a little too strong. I think it probably would still see play at 4, and 3 just makes it into one of the top creatures in Legacy. That's not the problem. The problem is that the only deck in the format that can use it is on top of the game, and it fills up all the holes that the deck wanted to fill.

The question is: What deck could stand up to Nassif Thresh. I don't think there's anything. Even making the pussiest-possible-change: -2 Trygon Predator, +2 Coatl, you're looking at a massive improvement (I quote Nassif as saying he thought Trygon was the worst card in the deck and was disappointed with it).

[pi4meterftw]

Why are people assuming that you have to run gimmicks with this card to make it worthwhile? I just played a deck Forbiddian and I were testing, which previously beat thresh about 75% of the time (back in the day when it actually used threshold effects.) Now I played 6 games against him on nassif thresh with this beast of a card, and won exactly 0 games. The matches took approximately 2.5 hours. I thought every play through, and still won 0 games. I would only say I got extremely unlucky once.

[TheLion]

Forbiddian, you are talking as if this card is the death of magic, or at least the death of Legacy...

Why is KotR a piece of shit? It is the same to Loam decks, what the Coatl is to Brainstorm decks.

And (as somebody already said) a vanilla beater usually does not improve any bad matchups.

[Korsakow]

It's really bad that all snake-related tribal cards suck so much - just imagine what this (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/chk/241.jpg) could do if it was reasonable costed.

What was the theme of the next block? Wasn't it something jungle related? I guess you will get your Snake-Tribal. :-(

@Topic
It looks to me a bit uber as well, it fits just to well. Maybe the costs should have been different. GGU would have been better... Buy some additional copys of Perish guys, the price will rise...

2cent

[4eak]

@ TheLion


Forbiddian, you are talking as if this card is the death of magic, or at least the death of Legacy...

We all know it isn't the end =)...You do have admit that it may be a bit imbalancing because this card directly strengthens what is already the strongest archetype in the format. If it improved a tier 2 deck, then it would be less worrisome.

While it may not be the death of the format, I don't think it is improper to say a card is too far above the power curve (a bit OP). I look at Goyf, AdN, CB/Top, Chalice, Lackey, Vial, StP, Brainstorm, Wasteland, and FoW as being too far above the curve, and the same might be case for Coatl. Perhaps Coatl is a bit too powerful compared to the rest of magic as well. (In case your wondering, I realize there is always going to be some "best" cards, but I'm only questioning the margin by which they are the best.)


And (as somebody already said) a vanilla beater usually does not improve any bad matchups.

Yeah, Coatl is a vanilla beater who can't block for the first turn he's in play, unless you have Brainstorm in hand. But, after a single turn, he becomes a monster. You'll average 4-5 p/t on his second turn, and he only grows worse.

The card is offensively stronger than Tarmogoyf, and is usually within 1 turn of being as defensively effective as Tarmogoyf. He curbs GY weaknesses, pitches to Force, plays around CB decks which don't have enough 3cc, and improves your CB curve. The CB strength though, is also his weakness and the only thing that keeps the card in check: he is a hefty 3cc in a deck which only plays 18-19ish land traditionally.

He's a good addition to the dominant archetype in the format. Threshold doesn't have any terrible matchups that are extremely viable in the first place. Thresh always has a chance against the format, and Coatl is probably going to improve those odds in general.






peace,
4eak

[FoolofaTook]

Looking at it again a couple of things occur to me. First it is uncommon so it will be easy to ban if they choose to do it. No $40 price tag to piss off the people who buy it as it ramps up in popularity and price. It'll be a $5 card at worst.

Second, I agree with the people who see it as a potential trojan horse aimed at Brainstorm. Brainstorm is the card most likely to be badly broken in combination with coatl since it is already extremely powerful on it's own and it now functions as a permanent giant growth in combination with coatl.

I'll bet coatl stays in the format and Brainstorm is banned at some point. Banning Brainstorm would weaken Tarmogoyf also since it would weaken the decks that Tarmogoyf is most powerful in.

[majikal]

I'll be a sad panda if they ban Brainstorm. It's my favorite card! And then it will not be fully legal in any format outside of casual. :(

[TorpidNinja]

Second, I agree with the people who see it as a potential trojan horse aimed at Brainstorm. Brainstorm is the card most likely to be badly broken in combination with coatl since it is already extremely powerful on it's own and it now functions as a permanent giant growth in combination with coatl.

I'll bet coatl stays in the format and Brainstorm is banned at some point. Banning Brainstorm would weaken Tarmogoyf also since it would weaken the decks that Tarmogoyf is most powerful in.

Interestingly enough, my thought (especially when Gargantuan had it's initial "return to hand" wording) was that the onslaught of high quality UG creatures was paving the way for some kind of axe on Tarmogoyf. However, since Gagantuan doesn't have the cool wording anymore, your theory seems pretty solid. Is there an open watch list for cards in Legacy right now?

[TheLion]

I can't follow your argumentation and all the hype you are putting into Coatl. Brainstorm and Coatl are just 2 cards, which happen to have synergies. It's not a game winning combo, just a synergy like Crucible/Wasteland, Flagstones/Armageddon, Stifle/Nought, Loam/Cyclelands/Terravore, CB/Top, Kird Ape/Forest, Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault and many others.
Things like that happen quite often in Legacy, and most of those cards are good on their own, too (Stifle, Armageddon, Top, ...).
As already stated, Coatl probably won't even see play in Standard and Extended, since it grows to slow.

So, why are you talking about banning Brainstorm and propagate this "omg, magic is dead!!11" feeling?

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, if due to this card Thresh will became too dominant, the first card that will get the axe would probably be Brainstorm, considering that they won't ban a vanilla creature.

I almost see the article right before my eyes now: "because of the predominance of blue, of the presence of fetch that make brainstorm a pseudorecall, the fact that brainstorm is present 4-of in every deck of *****'s top 8, we had to ban it. Ponder will not go, as we wanted to leave an iconic card for library manipulation to blue, and blah blah blah blah. This will also decrease the power of Goyf in control strategies, as you won't always go Brainstorm or Ponder-> Goyf, but you will only be able to Ponder-Goyf, and ponder isn't nearly as strong as Brainstorm in a format with fetches, blah blah blah. Also Brainstorm was a 4-of in every deck playing blue, encouraged control and combo strategy more than aggro ones, we want more creature to be played in legacy blah blah blah" :/

[ParkerLewis]

Wizards has established that they'll ban the non-creature part of a "combo" regardless of if the creature is the degenerate part or not.

Flash/Hulk: Hulk is definitely the busted part of the combo. Flash is a turd.

Wooow ! 2007 flashback ! I can't believe the same discussion is still going up.

How f* obvious does it have to be that Flash was the problem for the last people to finally get that it was the problem ?? How many times will the arguments of "Flash can abuse an order of magnitude more cards (ANY possible effect for only 2 mana as long as the said effect has been printed once on the thousands of critters with cip effects) than Hulk does (cards that... put a critter into play for an investement small enough that it would be playable, ie probably not much than 3 mana... how many are there ? yeah, zero)" need to be rehashed ?

OMG.

[FoolofaTook]

Wooow ! 2007 flashback ! I can't believe the same discussion is still going up.

How f* obvious does it have to be that Flash was the problem for the last people to finally get that it was the problem ?? How many times will the arguments of "Flash can abuse an order of magnitude more cards (ANY possible effect for only 2 mana as long as the said effect has been printed once on the thousands of critters with cip effects) than Hulk does (cards that... put a critter into play for an investement small enough that it would be playable, ie probably not much than 3 mana... how many are there ? yeah, zero)" need to be rehashed ?

OMG.

Yeah, Flash was the constraining mechanism on WotC's ability to design cards in the future since you'd have had to worry about every "goes to graveyard" effect and how it interacted with Flash.

[Forbiddian]

Wooow ! 2007 flashback ! I can't believe the same discussion is still going up.

How f* obvious does it have to be that Flash was the problem for the last people to finally get that it was the problem ?? How many times will the arguments of "Flash can abuse an order of magnitude more cards (ANY possible effect for only 2 mana as long as the said effect has been printed once on the thousands of critters with cip effects) than Hulk does (cards that... put a critter into play for an investement small enough that it would be playable, ie probably not much than 3 mana... how many are there ? yeah, zero)" need to be rehashed ?

OMG.

Requiring you to run a two card combo where both cards are useless outside of the combo.... I can't think of ANY CIPT abilities or LP abilities that would be remotely worth that. And regardless, there's Show and Tell for 2U, so players can already abuse broken CIPT abilities if any exist. If Hulk didn't exist, nobody would have batted an eye at Flash (maybe it'd be some jank tier 3 deck). Wizards would just have to be careful not to print: XXXXXXX, when it leaves play, you win the game.

Flash Rector doesn't win the game even. But I guess that limits R&Ds options. They also can't print: Enchantment: You win the game.

Flash is definitely within the power level of the never-played Show and Tell. I can't believe people are still running around thinking that Flash would be busted sideways without a piece to combo into. It's like asking if Animate Dead would be broken without Worldgorger Dragon and how it's destroying Wizards R&D because they can't print: "XXXXXXX: You win the game" on a creature. It wouldn't be a constrain at all.



But anyway, the people not following how good Coatl is seem to be under the expectation that it's just Brainstorm and Coatl, and that it won't change anything. That argument would make sense if Threshold didn't exist as a deck and if no decks already ran Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT, and green.

The problem is that Threshold exists and is already owning the format up in spite of being victimized by graveyard hate and the fact that everyone knows Thresh exists and is on top and everyone is prepared in some capacity for it.


I can't remember the last time a card was printed that helped out the already best deck in Legacy (or at the very least, a deck close to the top), especially in such a major "Automatic 4-of" role without requiring it to evolve in any way. When looking through the spoiler, I didn't see anything else to get excited about that might curb the rush to Thresh decks.

Coatl is a reasonably balanced card, within the power level of the other creatures already in Legacy, but I'm pretty convinced it's going to make Threshold out of hand as Coatl is going to be in the top 5 creatures of Legacy and there's only one deck that can possibly use it.

[pi4meterftw]

I find it frustrating there actually exist people who not only don't think that this card is the death of legacy but think that it's so bad that it might need something extra like shroud, or like costing UG. In fact, people think it's so uneventful that they think the other cards in the set matter, but nothing in the set will do anything remotely close to what this card will do to legacy if it's printed. Apparently, some people recognize that this card is huge, because they think brainstorm might get banned, which would obviously be the death of legacy, the only format you can play where you have efficient ways of avoiding both mana screw and mana flood so more "real games" are played.

If playing an 8/8 (at worst in testing, we proxied this card up on MWS) isn't good enough, then Yugioh is a great game where you get to play creatures with thousands of power. That 8/8 was without the help of any brainstorm, and it was immediately like at least a 6/6 the turn it came down.

What's this deal with Coatl being "only vanilla?" Yes, Coatl is only vanilla, what do you want? The welder ability tacked onto it? How come people don't run the argument in reverse? Welder is only a 1/1. It's because the card is good, even though it's not as broken as you can possibly imagine.

Nobody seems to understand, except Forbiddian, that a lot of decks just became strictly worse than threshold.

Imagine:

Old threshold (with cards that actually had threshold effects.)
"Hm... Nimble mongoose sucks. Oh, isn't there that card for 1UG that's always at least an 8/8? Yes, there is that card. Mystic enforcer is not as good as bob, and I'm already 3 colors anyway. Maybe I'll even ditch swords for snuff out and not run white all together."

Aggro loam:
"Hm, maybe I should splash blue for a beater that I can make as big, if not bigger than terravore. Wait, but there's better ways to make this creature bigger, namely brainstorm, ponder. I already run SDT, or if not, then it definitely should be included, but now I should run counterbalance. I may already run confidant, but if not now I should, but I'm running out of room, so maybe I should cut this inferior engine where I have to pay 1G and cycle lands to draw cards, and just run broken cards instead."

Merfolk:
"Wow, my wake thrasher definitely got outclassed there. Islandwalk is nice, but it doesn';t matter if I'm taking 10 every turn from just one guy. Maybe it'd help if I ran lorescale coatl myself. Well, I might as well run goyf, now too. Also, it sucks to be inconsistent, so I'll run ponder, and top. Woops! Might as well run counterbalance. Well, I don't have enough merfolk anymore, so lets cut these inferior creatures for dark confidant."

Decks are led, in a series of strict or nearly strict improvements to becoming the new threshold. Even if you don't agree that every step was strict improvement, let's take a look at what happens overall. What is the upside/downside to playing the first deck in the list, old threshold, vs this baseruption deck?

old thresh has less powerful creatures.

Everything else is the same.

Okay, aggro loam?
The beaters are the same size, but aggro loam has to run a crappy engine to fuel it, whereas baseruption gets to run things people would already run "in a vacuum" anyway, like ponder, brainstorm, CB, top. Also, baseruption gets to run countermagic, which helps it against one of the few decks, ANT, that is not on the fast track to becoming strictly dominated by baseruption.

Merfolk:
Baseruption has creatures that are at least as good, but it is way more consistent. Even if you want to argue that merfolk has islandwalk/lords or whatever, that's fine. I'll even concede that merfolk creatures might be as good as 1UG for an 8/8 minimum, but that's just because I don't want to argue this point since in testing, merfolk is inconsistent (Which makes sense since it has no brainstorm, ponder, or top.), whereas this deck has all 3.

It seems like baseruption gets lucky every game, but in reality, what can you expect when the deck has such insane searching power? I estimate that if this card is printed, and people act semi-logically, then:

A whole entire assortment of inferior decks will convert to baseruption, perhaps only limited by the cost of the cards in the deck. (It is very expensive.)
ANT/TES/etc., ichorid, goblins, will remain intact, not because they aren't worse than baseruption, but just because they're not obviously strictly worse. (They probably will be worse by win %, though.)

I don't know if brainstorm is getting banned, but if it is, then shouldn't that be a big alarm?

[Jak]

This card is stupid and makes me dislike the format even more. More huge vanilla beaters that you don't even need to work for and they are all played in the same deck. Stupid. Remember when decks actually had to splash and work to get a decent beater in the game? Mystic Enforcer, Dragon, etc. They also had flavor. This is ridiculous.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't see this as a straight add-on in Threshold. I think it will create other evolutions in the deck and at the end of them we will no longer have Threshold but something that is closer to the NLU that Nassif and others have been modifying.

Threshold as a concept is dead at this point. No cards in the new deck will actually have Threshold, only goyf will care about the graveyard (likely) and it will care about both graveyards equally.

Anybody who tries to play Threshold, as it currently exists, is likely to find themselves playing a tier 2 deck in a hurry. Lorescale Coatl adds into the creature mix alongside Tarmogoyf but he's going to be the better beater in the mirror and playing UG aggro-control competitively without him is going to be next to impossible.

[Forbiddian]

I don't see this as a straight add-on in Threshold. I think it will create other evolutions in the deck and at the end of them we will no longer have Threshold but something that is closer to the NLU that Nassif and others have been modifying.

Threshold as a concept is dead at this point. No cards in the new deck will actually have Threshold, only goyf will care about the graveyard (likely) and it will care about both graveyards equally.

Anybody who tries to play Threshold, as it currently exists, is likely to find themselves playing a tier 2 deck in a hurry. Lorescale Coatl adds into the creature mix alongside Tarmogoyf but he's going to be the better beater in the mirror and playing UG aggro-control competitively without him is going to be next to impossible.


That's what everyone's saying. There's just no established name for the deck.

Nassif Threshold <--- that's the Thresh everyone's talking about, and maybe a bit of the "old threshold" that will quickly evolve to this.
NLU
Baseruption
Probasco Thresh


We're talking about the same deck, there's just no established name. Sorry for any confusion.


Maybe Snakes on a Plain for UGw version.

[grahf]

Coatl excites me greatly because I am too poor to buy goyfs, so instead I will use him and Dryads to make budget-Gro.

[Barsoom]

Coatl excites me greatly because I am too poor to buy goyfs, so instead I will use him and Dryads to make budget-Gro.
This is exactly what i'll do too; if you want to share the decklist you have in mind will be nice, i'll PM you my list.

[Volt]

Coatl excites me greatly because I am too poor to buy goyfs, so instead I will use him and Dryads to make budget-Gro.

I suspect a lot of people will be doing this.

[KrzyMoose]

I think the format is going to come down to who got their Snake guy out first.

This card just made Sower of Temptation so much better.

[Volt]

Maybe Snakes on a Plain for UGw version.

I like it.

[Peter_Rotten]

I'll stand by my "the card is decent" argument until tournies prove otherwise. Just for fun, I'd like you to play a game with me. Tell me which of the following posts are about Coat-tail and which are about AdNaseum when it was spoiled:


This card is stupid and makes me dislike the format even more.



Even without further testing against blue/black decks the card's power level is way too high for Legacy. I'm not whining btw, just stating how I see it.


The card truly is insane, I got myself 4 already for €10,- total, that's about $14/$15,- ^^


Here's hoping for a pre-release banning for all formats besides vintage, where it will probably be restricted.


This card makes me so incredibly happy in my pants.


1) Its broken because there will be 4 in every deck, combo or not.

2) I saw this card litteraly the first thing I said was "take 10, draw 30, manabond GO"

3) Its insane we all know that.


What would be Wizards reason for printing this anyways? There can be arguably no good to come out of it. Are they trying to mess with the eternal formats?


GG Legacy.


It'd replace a ton of mediocre threats in Vintage if it isn't restricted, it's rather difficult to Mana Drain thru' Force of Will and Duress, which makes it similar to Gifts Ungiven combo set ups.


IMO it's busted, how much so I have no idea...

And here are some classic "sky-is-falling" about AdNaseum:


The argument that this is "just another Iggy" is ridiculous, on multiple levels. First, Ad Nauseum isn't a little bit better, it's a 1-card combo. Resolve me and I win. It's 2 mana cheaper than Belcher, and doesn't require Land Grant. It's probably worse than Flash Hulk, but it only requires one card.


Hand: Land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual (or any two Petal or Cabal) + Ad Nauseum = win turn 1.


This card is ridiculous. I really can't believe it's really as spoiled. If so, Legacy is going to become play Storm or go home very quickly.


IBA: With respect, I think that this is better than Hulk Flash for these reasons.

1.1 card combo
2.It's one more card for Control and Aggrocontrol decks that must be dealt with
3.It's Black, making it workable from the best rituals in the game
4.It makes TES, FT, and SI THE best decks in Legacy
5.There is nothing that is more powerful than it in the format

That's how I see it.

Hell - even these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtGlHPFCH8A) seemed worried about the Coat-tail

[C.P.]

Few things after testing:

It is a good creature, and better than classic threshold beaters, like Enforecer, Dragon, Drake, and co. However, modern build of CB/Top does not run pure beater other than goyf, and 3cc slot is usually taken by Clique or other utility guys. In other words, they are in different niche.

It is pretty strong creature, but it is worse than Tarmogoyf, and can only be Goyf 5-8 in essence. Is there a archetype that can use 8 goyfs and do well? There may be, but it seems worse than all-rounders like NLU. Also, this card doesn't help Thresh/NLU's worst matchup, attrition control decks.

It is a help for the best deck in the format which is bit necessary, but it is not the end of Legacy. Stop whining, more playing.

EDIT: I felt I need to elaborate more. First, My statement about Goyf 5-8 is just Pure Beater 5-8. It is not, by any means, better than Goyf. Also, Thresh/NLU decks seems to be more in need of good utility creatures than efficient beaters, because Goyfs are just too good in that department.

[Forbiddian]

I did point out that all the predictions about Ad Nauseum were true. Ad Nauseum is a big step up for combo. I didn't predict CB/Top getting run everwhere, though.


Counterbalance/Top was a massive mitigating factor, which is now played in virtually every deck (I guess Ad Nauseum forced people to discover it or at least galvanized the masses).

I proposed a deck with 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, and Wasteland maindeck and 4 boarded Thorn of Amethyst and a number of TES players said that they go 50-50 against more hate and that I should maybe ramp it up.

I think without CB/Top running around 20% of the decks, we'd definitely be living in combo winter. Ask in the TES thread or the ANT thread, they sport a positive matchup against every deck except decks with CB/Top, Daze, and Force of Will.

Ok, obviously Legacy will continue to be played after Coatl wrecks up a bunch of tier 1/tier 2 decks. Some people will stick around.

I do think that Legacy is much more boring after Ad Nauseum than it was before. Counterbalance/Top mirrors are not interesting for me (neither are they for any pros either). I'm sick of decks starting 4 Goyf, 4 CB, 4 Top, 4 BS, 2 Ponder, 4 Force, 3 Daze, which didn't really happen as much before Ad Nauseum.

Now add to that 4 Coatl and fast forward a month from now.



But for like the tenth time, I pose this question: What's currently the best deck in the format?

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

[ansset]

Ok, obviously Legacy will continue to be played after Coatl wrecks up a bunch of tier 1/tier 2 decks. Some people will stick around.

I do think that Legacy is much more boring after Ad Nauseum than it was before. Counterbalance/Top mirrors are not interesting for me (neither are they for any pros either). I'm sick of decks starting 4 Goyf, 4 CB, 4 Top, 4 BS, 2 Ponder, 4 Force, 3 Daze, which didn't really happen as much before Ad Nauseum.

Now add to that 4 Coatl and fast forward a month from now.



But for like the tenth time, I pose this question: What's currently the best deck in the format?

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

Dragon Stompy could beat Nassif Thresh. It didn't in the Top 8 of the GP, but one match does not a matchup define.

Team America could beat Nassif Thresh.

A number of less-competitive decks could probably do decently, but those are the two I thought of off the top of my head.

I'm unclear on what you mean by "outsizing it by the endgame". Clarify please?

edit: Obviously Thresh is the best deck in the format, but I'm 60/40 on that being a rhetoric question.

[mujadaddy]

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.What does "outsizing it" mean?

Plenty of decks can beat Nassif Thresh -- it's surviving to the final table that hangs them up.

[diffy]

Ok, obviously Legacy will continue to be played after Coatl wrecks up a bunch of tier 1/tier 2 decks. Some people will stick around.


About that: (straight copy/paste of an Adept Lounge post because I'm too lazy to rephrase this at 02:30am)
I think that it is indeed a solid card but the 'Dryad syndrome' balances it out: Threshold (talkin' Counter-Top here) has already so many mediocre to outright bad topdecks that you don't really want any more. Furthermore, Coatl, just like Dryad, is at its best when you have a cantrip-heavy draw. However, those draws tend to win just fine already (due to superior card selection giving you all the right tools at the perfect time and all that blahbla) meaning that at its best, Lorescale Coatl is winmore. At its worst (i.e. as a topdeck), Coatl is a mediocre beater due to its lack of evasion and/or utility and due to not immediately having an impact on the board, making it inferior to the other competitors for its slots (Rhox War Monk, Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator etc.).
Especially if you're playing a white-splashed list, you're going to have a hard time justifying this over Jenara Asunder of War which itself is far from an auto-include: both grow similarly quickly (remember: cantrip- and Top shenanigans do also cost you mana and tempo) with Jenara being the way better Topdeck and having evasion compared to Coatl's 'omg I came'-ness with Brainstorm.
I won't mention how amazing Coatl is with Sensei's Divining Top because if you have one of those you're already that much ahead that it doesn't really matter which one of the competitors for Coatl's slots you just drew/played.
Just ask yourself: would you play a (slightly?) better Quirion Dryad in Threshold?

Conclusion: Hype Qasali Pridemage, for it is the actually good card in the set.





Counterbalance/Top was a massive mitigating factor, which is now played in virtually every deck (I guess Ad Nauseum forced people to discover it or at least galvanized the masses).


Actually I didn't. Ad Nauseam (or any combo deck) was never played in sufficiently large numbers that players had to metagame against it. People were 'forced' to discover Counterbalance because it's friggin' broken and better than any other strategy in the format. That simple.



But for like the tenth time, I pose this question: What's currently the best deck in the format?


Something with CounterTop, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf. The other 30 or so cards are marginal.



Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

Ichorid. Consistently, even on its worst days.

[Malchar]

I hope that they don't ban brainstorm, which seems like the most likely card to get the axe. I don't really think that they will ban anything though. For a long time, I was an avid goblins player, and I've recently seen the massive downfall of that deck. It has a pretty good match against NLU but it hasn't gotten any new cards lately. What I hope to see is a variety of other new cards (in addition to Coatl) that power up other decks. Especially goblins because it could beat NLU.

[undone]

I hope that they don't ban brainstorm, which seems like the most likely card to get the axe. I don't really think that they will ban anything though. For a long time, I was an avid goblins player, and I've recently seen the massive downfall of that deck. It has a pretty good match against NLU but it hasn't gotten any new cards lately. What I hope to see is a variety of other new cards (in addition to Coatl) that power up other decks. Especially goblins because it could beat NLU.

They arent banning brainstorm, it doesnt fit any qualifications for banning in this format.

On topic decks that are 50/50 with nassif NLU include

tempo thresh
Team america
GB/ GBw aggro with vendicate and potentialy pulse

Decks which are 60/40 or better

Ichorid
lands
Landstill with humility + deed
Dragon stompy

People over rate this matchup because a better player was playing the matchup. If he was playing tempo thresh he still would have won, if he was playing any deck with 8+ cantrips he would have won. Its the way it is.

[Aggro_zombies]

About that: (straight copy/paste of an Adept Lounge post because I'm too lazy to rephrase this at 02:30am)
I think that it is indeed a solid card but the 'Dryad syndrome' balances it out: Threshold (talkin' Counter-Top here) has already so many mediocre to outright bad topdecks that you don't really want any more. Furthermore, Coatl, just like Dryad, is at its best when you have a cantrip-heavy draw. However, those draws tend to win just fine already (due to superior card selection giving you all the right tools at the perfect time and all that blahbla) meaning that at its best, Lorescale Coatl is winmore. At its worst (i.e. as a topdeck), Coatl is a mediocre beater due to its lack of evasion and/or utility and due to not immediately having an impact on the board, making it inferior to the other competitors for its slots (Rhox War Monk, Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator etc.).
Especially if you're playing a white-splashed list, you're going to have a hard time justifying this over Jenara Asunder of War which itself is far from an auto-include: both grow similarly quickly (remember: cantrip- and Top shenanigans do also cost you mana and tempo) with Jenara being the way better Topdeck and having evasion compared to Coatl's 'omg I came'-ness with Brainstorm.
I won't mention how amazing Coatl is with Sensei's Divining Top because if you have one of those you're already that much ahead that it doesn't really matter which one of the competitors for Coatl's slots you just drew/played.
Just ask yourself: would you play a (slightly?) better Quirion Dryad in Threshold?

Conclusion: Hype Qasali Pridemage, for it is the actually good card in the set.
I concur.

Coatl can break Goyf-on-Goyf combat, but it requires investment of time and mana to do so - a total of probably four mana over two turns, using cards that are easily countered by Counterbalance. Basically, if we assume a nightmare scenario of a format of straight NLU mirror matches, the situation will be such that you have to stick a CB first to force through your draw spells if Coatl is to get big enough to be relevant. Even then, you're expending multiple cards on one guy at best (turn two off of Noble Hierarch, let's say).

Coatl is probably best when paired with Life from the Loam, because then it's not usually a lame topdeck - you can dredge Loam and start cycling to grow it at any time. It grows less explosively, but has a much more consistent rate of growth: about two counters per turn assuming two to three cycling lands. I would rather trade in "ZOMG 5/5 AND BRAINSTORM RAWR I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME" for "I can make my Coatl large over several turns no matter when I draw it, and without having to pack my deck full of cantrips and without being on a win-more draw", but that's just me.

Then again, if you have the Loam engine going, there's a lot more powerful cards you could be winning with: Worm Harvest, Seismic Assault, even Countryside Crusher. That last of which, by the way, has bigger base stats, fixes your draws, grows off your engine, and has a home in a deck that consistently gets top 8.

Coatl needs to be built around, it doesn't just fall into a current deck and rape face. It's really rather unimpressive once you stop having a stroke and actually look at what it does.

[xsockmonkeyx]

it doesn't just fall into a current deck and rape face.

Yes it does.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yes it does.
"Yes it does" what? Fall into a current deck, or actually be ridiculous in that deck? The former is true to an extent, but the latter most certainly isn't. NLU doesn't really need this guy, and it's awkward in normal Threshold - not to mention the fact that it has no evasion, so you're still sitting around twiddling your thumbs until it grows big enough to eat Tarmogoyfs.

Let's face it: Coatl followed immediately by a Brainstorm, while ridiculous, is not a common play. Activating Top to make it grow effectively sets you back a turn every time you do it - I'd be more than happy to have my opponent blow mana and draw steps dicking around with Top instead of actually winning. There's also the fact that if you're chaining a lot of cantrips like what you'd need to do with Coatl, you're probably winning already. Actually winning at that point is basically an academic exercise.

Stop shitting yourself with knee-jerk "OMG HUGE GUY FOR LITTLE MANA" reactions and actually look at the card. It's a 2/2 for three mana that requires you to play spells to make it decent, and requires you to pack your deck with lots of these spells at that. Incidentally, these spells are of the sort that would allow you to find and win with, say, Tombstalker, which probably wouldn't have to burn through an army of chump blockers to Go The Distance (and he would cost less too!).

[xsockmonkeyx]

"Yes it does" what? Fall into a current deck, or actually be ridiculous in that deck?

Yes.

[memnarch]

Well he certainly is good with two tops out, but that isn't going to happen much. I think you guys are hyping this. Is it really better then the 3/3 angel? That starts out bigger and gets bigger quickly most of the time I would assume. The evasion lets it fly over goyf and start hitting immediately.

[Korsakow]

Does anybody agree with me that Coatl is better the Trygon? It also pitches to FoW. That is enough to say that it is a shitty card, it improves the quality of NLU, wich is allready upper tier.
Nuff said.

[Valdez]

who fucking cares about if a card pitches into fow or not..?

srsly guys, thats like going to a bar @ friday night and getting a milk for free alongside the orderd beer.

[fallenphoenix]

And there he is:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arb/101.jpg

Ye may now bathe thee in thy glory.
(Dunno if the picture was already posted somewhere else)


Imho the "Dryad-factor" of being a bad topdeck is much less relevant, since it grows on it's own and doesn't take too long before reaching a relevant size.
Sure, it takes it's time, but it has already been stated, that it's better in slower builds.

That said, testing will tell if Next-Level-Grow needs just another big dude or more utility like V. Clique etc...

[georgjorge]

Strange, I must have imagined all those non-Countertop decks showing up on Day 2 or in the Top 8 of Chicago...obviously, they can't have won a single game since they weren't playing Force + Daze + CBalance.

I mean, I'm getting tired of playing against blue Aggro-control as well, but some of the claims in this thread are ridiculous.

[Korsakow]

who fucking cares about if a card pitches into fow or not..?

srsly guys, thats like going to a bar @ friday night and getting a milk for free alongside the orderd beer.

I like milk :tongue:
I don't start to scream that this is the end of the formate... but why the hell get's the allready best deck a few percentages more power?

I can't understand that, perhaps WotC does not care about Legacy? Possible, cause Coatl won't be a bomb for any existing competitive deck in T2.
That's all.

[ParkerLewis]

Requiring you to run a two card combo where both cards are useless outside of the combo.... I can't think of ANY CIPT abilities or LP abilities that would be remotely worth that. And regardless, there's Show and Tell for 2U, so players can already abuse broken CIPT abilities if any exist. If Hulk didn't exist, nobody would have batted an eye at Flash (maybe it'd be some jank tier 3 deck).


Flash is definitely within the power level of the never-played Show and Tell. I can't believe people are still running around thinking that Flash would be busted sideways without a piece to combo into.

There are lot of comes into play / leaves play abilities around (a lot lot). Some of them are simply huge (sundering titan, etc).

There are not a lot of cards that enable you to just "put a card into play". And they're ALL significantly worse than flash. Show and Tell is probably effectively the best flash wannabe, except for three huge differences :

- it's a sorcery
- it costs one more mana
- it's symmetrical
- it doesn't kill the target on the spot, so forget about the leaves play abilities.

Even though being the closest you'll get to Flash, Show and Tell is no Flash.


Wizards would just have to be careful not to print: XXXXXXX, when it leaves play, you win the game.

Wrong. That's the whole reason mana costs exist. To make you jump through an initial hoop the difficulty of which is inversely proportional to the next hoops you'll still have to jump through to win the game after the effect has resolved. And this is exactly the perfect reason to have gotten rid of Flash and not Hulk : bypassing mana costs too easily (asymetrical, instant, 2 mana) is the danger, because that is the thing that is going against the philosophy around which the whole game is built. It already made a mess once that had to be dealt with. Putting design contraints on more than a third of all cards from now til the end of time, and checking that there are absolutely no obscure way to turn the effect into some bizarre win thanks to forgotten cards from nine years ago to account for the brokenness of a fringe card from ten years ago in a second-rate (as in : not Standard) format would be plain ridiculous.

Now compare that with : being careful about effects allowing you to bypass the mana cost of cards, ie something they are already doing anyway, Hulk or not, that is not doing anything more than usual.

Please. It's not even close enough to state it's not even close.

[spirit of the wretch]

As nobody has mentioned it yet:
THX @ PR for the nice collection of overhyped posts! Really funny to compare the Ad Nauseam sky falling with the current one.

[Adan]

Well, the basicideas about this card are okay, but the hype is ridiculous.

It is better than a Quirion Dryad. Yes. But both have something in common: They suck terribly as a topdeck and can be burnt just before they can cause any trouble.

As for Threshold, I think it is okay because:

+ It grows bigger than Goyf
+ +1/+1 counters make it resilent against Humility
+ with 2 Tops, it's a cheaper Jenara that works on Socery speed
+ it can be pitched into force (this is for all the guys who find that one important...)
+ reveals for CC3 with Counterbalance which can be crucial.

But:

- A pseudo-Jenara without evasion and Sorcery speed pump sucks. Period.
- terrible as a topdeck, no immediate impact on the boardposition without Brainstorm
- are you really going to spare a Brainstorm just to Giant Growth it? I doubt. This rather happens by chance as you are improving your resources quite early with BS (at least I do).

-> Jenara does the same thing as Coatl, but better!

But the real card to hype is - as DerF already mentioned - Qasali Pridemage. Just insanely versatile.

[Peter_Rotten]

Here's a real quick post:

I went to the pre-release and opened both a Pridemage and a Coat-tail. Both died before they saw an attack step! (I sometimes judge the quality of cards based on how quickly an opponent attempts to kill it).

[majikal]

Here's a real quick post:

I went to the pre-release and opened both a Pridemage and a Coat-tail. Both died before they saw an attack step! (I sometimes judge the quality of cards based on how quickly an opponent attempts to kill it).
Similarly I got a Coatl in my sealed pool, and after Scullering and Brainbiting all of my opponent's removal, dropped him on the board with a Courier's Capsule and ended the game really quickly.



-> Jenara does the same thing as Coatl, but better!
No, it doesn't. Jenara requires two mana to grow it each time, one of which is white. Don't get me wrong, she's still a great card, but the snake outclasses her by miles.

Pridemage is really good too though. I do agree with you there.


Is it really better then the 3/3 angel? That starts out bigger and gets bigger quickly most of the time I would assume. The evasion lets it fly over goyf and start hitting immediately.
Yes. The snake is almost always at least a 5/5 or 6/6 the turn after it comes into play, with no more investment than just playing your deck. It is also not a legend, so if you've got a huge snake on the board your opponent can't drop one of his own to nuke it.

Evasion is nice though, but you'll still be racing a guy that will probably end up an 8/8+.

[Soldar]

Here's a real quick post:

I went to the pre-release and opened both a Pridemage and a Coat-tail. Both died before they saw an attack step! (I sometimes judge the quality of cards based on how quickly an opponent attempts to kill it).

I opened up and played a Sen Triplets, and whenever I played them, my opponent's face went from "Hey guys, we're having an awesome time at the prerelease!" to "I can't even begin to describe how much I hate you" whenever they stuck around for a turn. Then I played lands from their hand, and played their guys.

I like to gauge creatures on the look on my opponent's face. Or how demoralized they get. But by that logic, when I played double Nemesis of Reason, that card should be crazy.

I don't know man, we'd keep playing magic if you still had some cards left.

[diffy]

No, it doesn't. Jenara requires two mana to grow it each time, one of which is white. Don't get me wrong, she's still a great card, but the snake outclasses her by miles.


Coatl requires at least one mana to grow each time but the first each turn (cantrips do cost mana) and most of that mana can only be spent at sorcery speed (Ponder, Top). Also, when you're growing your snake, you're wasting precious cantrips weakening your game after your opponent handled your stuff whereas Jenara needs no further investment but mana (which also makes her a way better lategame draw and topdeck).
Not that big a difference after all, is it?



Yes. The snake is almost always at least a 5/5 or 6/6 the turn after it comes into play, with no more investment than just playing your deck. It is also not a legend, so if you've got a huge snake on the board your opponent can't drop one of his own to nuke it.


As I mentioned before, this guy is good if you have a Brainstorm or 1+ Sensei's Divining Tops. If you don't have any of those, he's underwhelming. If you have a Top, you're already ahead meaning that any decent beater will do. The snake therefore is basically only better than the alternatives if you have a Brainstorm - and I'm not really into 2-card combos which give me nothing but a vanilla beater (if I would, I'd be playing Dreadstill and not the more consistent deck).

[FoolofaTook]

Here's a real quick post:

I went to the pre-release and opened both a Pridemage and a Coat-tail. Both died before they saw an attack step! (I sometimes judge the quality of cards based on how quickly an opponent attempts to kill it).

This factor however would make you think that Figure of Destiny is very powerful also, when in fact it is just a decent beater.

[FoolofaTook]

Coatl requires at least one mana to grow each time but the first each turn (cantrips do cost mana) and most of that mana can only be spent at sorcery speed (Ponder, Top). Also, when you're growing your snake, you're wasting precious cantrips weakening your game after your opponent handled your stuff whereas Jenara needs no further investment but mana (which also makes her a way better lategame draw and topdeck).
Not that big a difference after all, is it?

I'm still thinking Sylvan Library will now see play for all of the other things it does, which were not enough to put it over the top but now with Lorescale Coatl potentially do.

+3/+3 for no mana each turn to Lorescale Coatl when it's on the board. The effect grows with dupes on the board so extra Sylvan's are not a completely dead draw.

3 cards to look at each turn for no mana after the original investment.

Up to 2 extra cards drawn each turn for life loss.

People who think that Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan can't go together in a deck are being a bit unimaginative in terms of envisioning what permanent dig can do for you, particularly with 6+ fetches in the deck.

Leaving a 2cc on top of your deck against Threshold, or a 1cc against Storm, or a 3cc against midrange decks is often enough to shut them down and win the game. Topping for the right card each interaction is more effective, but often only in a win-more scenario, since if they can't cast their lock/kill spells it doesn't really matter what else they can cast, right?

[fallenphoenix]

I must dissent, DiF.


Coatl requires at least one mana to grow each time but the first each turn (cantrips do cost mana)

Yeah, ofc they cost mana, but it's not like you wouldn't play them otherwise. If you have got a Ponder and your hand is not outright perfect, wouldn't you start diggin? Like Dryad or Countryside Crusher, you don't really have to put effort into growing the snake. It just grows all by itself, while you keep on digging for answers.

Jenara, if pumped, needs a reasonable amount of mana, that will be drawn from your already limited ressources. If you want to play cantrips/permission while adding counters to Jenara, you'll have to play way more than 17-18 lands, I suppose.



As I mentioned before, this guy is good if you have a Brainstorm or 1+ Sensei's Divining Tops. If you don't have any of those, he's underwhelming

I don't quite agree. Ofc having him & BS/SDT is superb, but even without he's not "underwhelming". How often is Tarmogoyf bigger than 4/5? The Snake will be this size after 2-3 turns, without any further investment other than playing NQG.
After that he will exceed goyf by far.

Yeah, he is not the best, if you're looking for an immideate blocker, but that has already been pointed out like... 20+ times.



If you have a Top, you're already ahead meaning that any decent beater will do.

I don't see the point here. Many decks run Top, so having one out does not mean you are getting considerably ahead of your opponent. Even if you would be ahead, this wouldn't be a reason to NOT run the BEST creature you could get to finish the job.

(Not saying that the snake is the best, but I assume it's among the Top-Beaters you could choose from.)

[C.P.]

I don't quite agree. Ofc having him & BS/SDT is superb, but even without he's not "underwhelming". How often is Tarmogoyf bigger than 4/5? The Snake will be this size after 2-3 turns, without any further investment other than playing NQG.
After that he will exceed goyf by far.


Here's the problem. He will outgrow Goyf in 2-3 turns. However, you will die in that time, or be very close to it if you don't chump. And no matter how big it gets, it is still subject to non-Red Removals in the format. There are many creatures in this format that are great if left untouched for a turn or two. Hell, even Vinelasher Kudzu can outgrow Goyf in 2-3 turns. It still means nothing, because that precious time is when your threat will sit there doing nothing while you die to more solid threats.

[FoolofaTook]

Here's the problem. He will outgrow Goyf in 2-3 turns. However, you will die in that time, or be very close to it if you don't chump. And no matter how big it gets, it is still subject to non-Red Removals in the format. There are many creatures in this format that are great if left untouched for a turn or two. Hell, even Vinelasher Kudzu can outgrow Goyf in 2-3 turns. It still means nothing, because that precious time is when your threat will sit there doing nothing while you die to more solid threats.

Coatl can easily outgrow Goyf in one turn. Goyf offers more stability, however Coatl is much more explosive. Both are going to be needed in UG aggro-control at this point unless I miss my guess. And Goyf is going to be a sad puppy in the mirror more often than Coatl will be.

[Nessaja]

You know, he can also outgrow a goyf in just one turn, or even the same turn he got cast - without doing anything you wouldn't do normally.

That said, he isn't better then goyf, but for thresh, easily the second best vanilla beater out there. Like others have said, he's the Countryside Crusher for Thresh.

[majikal]

I really wish people would stop comparing this to Goyf. You play them both. And to the people saying that it's bad, you obviously have not played with or against it.

[C.P.]

I really wish people would stop comparing this to Goyf. You play them both. And to the people saying that it's bad, you obviously have not played with or against it.

And you obviously have not read this thread. A lot of people are saying this cards is solid, not bad. We're just saying that this is not the best creature ever printed, nor the cards that will get Brainstorm banned or something silly like that.

[Artowis]

I really wish people would stop comparing this to Goyf. You play them both. And to the people saying that it's bad, you obviously have not played with or against it.

Because clearly you have the massive mound of data sitting around considering it was only confirmed to exist as-of a week ago. Definitely. Feel free to share. :laugh:

[majikal]

Because clearly you have the massive mound of data sitting around considering it was only confirmed to exist as-of a week ago. Definitely. Feel free to share. :laugh:
Yeah, actually, I do. I've been testing it nonstop for the last few days against almost everything. I even did the stupid burn goldfish test and somehow outraced it every single game. :eyebrow:

This card singlehandedly makes you win when you should not. I have been in the "it's not so busted" camp up until tonight, but then the testing sessions I played over the last few days and especially this evening have all led me to conclude that something needs to happen to neuter this guy. Whether that means ban something (hopefully not) or print something that makes it suck, I don't particularly care as long as it evens the field a little bit.

Here's my list if you want to give it a crack:

4x Goyf
4x Lorescale Coatl
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Vendilion Clique (and actually not very pleased with these, might make them Shackles)

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x SDT
4x Counterbalance
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring (considering cutting one for Wipe Away)

4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Forest

[troopatroop]

I think playing Noble Hierarch should be mainstay in the U/G/w versions of this deck. Playing him allows you to shave off a few lands, so it's only taking up a few slots. I've been playing 18 and it's been good to me.


4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
1 Krosan Grip

4 Tropical island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest

[Kilz88]

Hey guys, I am not sure if this has been mentioned but I wanted to try and get most out of this guy. I wanted to use all the great draw cards and him, but I came up with an issue: Standstill costs less than this guy. So when it came to getting them both in the same deck, it was awkward. But then it came to me: Aether Vial. This a very rough base for a deck lemme know what you use think I can finish it out with. I am open to suggestions for a 3rd or maybe 4th color and I am looking for another solid creature or two to vial in and make vial worth it. Here is what I got so far:

Creatures
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
3-4 Counterbalance

Awesomeness
4 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Tropical Island
2-4 Polluted Delta
2-4 Flooded Strand
2-4 Mishra's Factory
3-4 Wasteland
Some Islands


Some of the possible creatures that come to mind are Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator, Meddling Mage if we go white, and Dark Confidant is we go black. Lemme know what you guys suggest.

[zulander]

1. That deck looks aweful, 3/4 aether vials for 8 creatures?

2. This isn't the N&D forum, go there and post your deck list there.

[FoolofaTook]

The list I'm testing:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Lorescale Coatl

4x Sylvan Library
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterbalance

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Savannah
3x Island
1x Forest

Coatl gets found quickly and comes down early and gets very big very fast.

[majikal]

How has the Library been testing for you? I tried it for a little while yesterday and never found myself needing or wanting it. And when I drew it, I always wished it was something else.

[Volt]

There's some bad N&D type deck lists going on in here right now.

Based on the couple hours of playtesting I've done with the snake, I'd say the comparisons to Countryside Crusher are fair. That means it's a nice, playable card, but nothing to get your knickers in a twist about.

[FoolofaTook]

How has the Library been testing for you? I tried it for a little while yesterday and never found myself needing or wanting it. And when I drew it, I always wished it was something else.

I'm using it to get to everything else.

Turn 1 - Noble Hierarch
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library/ Sensei's Divining Top/Lorescale Coatl

Is what I'm trying to promote. It has some mana consistency issues which probably means 1 less Krosan Grip in the main deck and one more land.

Sylvan Library is feeling very strong at this point because it digs for cards early while allowing me to keep mana open for other uses during my turn and then it doubles as a pumper for Lorescale Coatl which is the ultimate finisher in the deck.

I'm guessing you are playing 4x Sensei's Divining Top and some number of Sylvan Library besides that? I'm finding 4 and 4 to be too much and I'm cutting down the tops as a result.

[Jak]

Why would you cut Tops down when you are running Counterbalance? Seriously, stop making your deck worse to make 4 cards slightly better.