Cascade Hypergenesis

[darkmindtone]

Not sure if this topic has been covered or not, or if it's even viable. I just got this idea from Ben Blieweiss's article about the financial value of Alara Reborn. I don't have an exact decklist, but rather a shell that's been bouncing around my head for the last few hours.

4 Ardent Plea
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst

4 Hypergenesis

4 Progenitus
4 Angel of Despair
3 Empyrial Archangel
3 Sundering Titan
3 Hellkite Overlord
3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

16 lands

Obviously this looks like trash, but the basic gist is turn 2-3 3cc Cascade spell for Hypergenesis, and just unload the most ridiculous monsters ever printed. This isn't the only way it could be run, since Hypergenesis can put lands, artifacts, and enchantments into play as well. This makes it so that many other "combo" options are available as well besides the dump the nastiest finishers ever into play. Obviously the way it currently is makes it pretty cold to Counterbalance with a land on top, but the deck seems pretty sick against most other strategies. The amount of customization that is within this shell is insane. You could have more blue fat creatures and be able to run Force of Will, since Ardent Plea can also be RFG to pay the cost. The fact that they you can run 12 3cc Cascade spells really helps give this deck a sense of redundancy. Anyways, its just an idea, but definitely seems like something worth looking into.

[TheCramp]

I'm pretty sure you need to defend the combo there. you lose to FoW and even Daze. Problem is that adding that, duress chant etc. stops the deck from working. Which makes me thing this is an extended deck. You lose ESG, and for that trade never have to face all that main deck hate. Also, Demonic Dread can't be turboed out turn one.

Alternativly, maybe it could use FoW and perhaps Foil of its own?

[sunshine]

Agreed, FoW and Misdirection seem like solid choices for this deck. Inkwell Leviathan should probably make the cut too, even if it wasn't blue to pitch to FoW and Misd.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

This is one of the most interesting ideas I've seen in a while. Mad props.

I agree that dumping big creatures is the way to go. There aren't really any expensive artifacts or enchantments that could win you the game. Maybe Enduring Ideal type stuff could get there, but not as fast as creatures can. All three of the cascade cards support the man-plan, too.

Anyway, here's my take on it:

4 Adrent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
4 Demonic Dread

3 Hypergenisis

4 Helkite Overlord
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Spirit of the Night
3 Magister Sphinx
1 Razia, Boros Archangel
2 Karona, False God
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

4 Unmask

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Tinder Farm
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice-Bridge

Explanations:

3 Hypergenisis: You don't actually want to draw it, but there needs to be one in your deck if you do. Maybe this could be 2.

Magister Sphinx: The idea behind the creature base is to win the turn you play Hypergenisis, although it will probably often have to wait until next turn. This guy is a 10-point swing. Definitely one of the guys you want to drop, but 2 of these is bad.

Karona, False God: He (she?) hits for 8 (5 power plus 3 on your other creature). That's about as big as it gets for hasty creatures. Legendary, so you don't want to see more than one. Doesn't play nice with Magister Sphinx.

Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund: No, I don't ever expect to steal dragons with this. Maybe it should be two of this guy and one Karona.

Tinder Farm & Geothermal Crevice: No real mystery here. I just think getting 3 mana on turn 2 is worth the risk of getting wasted. Getting a first turn sac-land wasted isn't as bad in this deck as it normally would be because it doesn't have any 1 or 2-drops.

Tendo Ice-Bridge: Hopefully, you'll only need colored mana once. I just didn't like the idea of Karona getting chumped by a spirit token. This could probably be some dual lands.

[Roman Candle]

I really want to play Sneak Attack in here too... danger of cool things?

[TheCramp]

I think that unmask and FoW are your two best options to defend the combo. This leaves the question, what U/B monsters fir the bill? Progenitus seems obv... what else. the new set has a few options, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, maybe... Thraximundar seems good. Garza Zol, Plague Queen from cold snap has haste, flies. Spirit of night seems obv. Haste I think is another defineing trait. you might only get 2 or three monsters. A swords and a sower could end all your fun. And that's main deck hate.

[freakish777]

Why not Eureka also? You really only need 2 Hypergenesis, Eureka gives you an out against Counterbalance.

Other creatures, artifacts, enchantments to consider:

Saproling Burst + Pandemonium (kill on the spot, you might actually be able to cast them also)
Decree of Silence/Dovescape/Ritual of Subdual/Shared Fate (seriously!)
Platinum Angel + Priviled Position
Form of the Dragon
Darksteel Colossus
Duplicant
Thraximundar
Magister Sphinx ("10 you?" or "Oh shit I need some life!")
Treachery/Confiscate
Akroma's Memorial (probably not, but giving Progenitus/DSC haste seems ok)
Street Wraith (cycles to find stuff, comes in off a Hypergenesis, doesn't cost 1 or 2 mana, any fatty cycler for that matter should be ok).
Mindslaver
Nullstone Gargoyle
Possessed Portal

[Sims]

There is a guy that played an Eureka deck locally that revolved around a few things:

Eureka
Wild Pair
Kokusho
Bogardan Hellkites
Where ancients tread
mana ramp and other utility creatures. (Tinder Wall, wall of blossoms, indrik stomphowler style stuff)

Deck was hilarious and actually kicked the shit out of the meta a few times by people who weren't prepared for it. Biggest problem, naturally, was if Eureka got countered you were pretty well screwed. But our metagame was very light in the blue dept.

[freakish777]

There is a guy that played an Eureka deck locally that revolved around a few things:

Eureka
Wild Pair
Kokusho
Bogardan Hellkites
Where ancients tread
mana ramp and other utility creatures. (Tinder Wall, wall of blossoms, indrik stomphowler style stuff)

Deck was hilarious and actually kicked the shit out of the meta a few times by people who weren't prepared for it. Biggest problem, naturally, was if Eureka got countered you were pretty well screwed. But our metagame was very light in the blue dept.


Pssssh... if you're gonna just straight up play Eureka (and not Hypergenesis), go balls to the walls and try for Nicol Bolas, Planes Walker + Doubling Season. :smile:

[Dark_Shakuras]

What about a Hypnox or two, to make sure Swords and ilk like that have to be top decked instead of held onto...

Also Iname as One? Weren't the power level eratta's removed on both of these right?

[Hunding Gjornersen]

Neither of those cards received power-level errata or have had it removed. They both read "...if you played it from your hand..." so they wouldn't work here.

[ykpon]

imo u should play a full set of Pillar of the Paruns, it can't be used for suspending Hypergenesis, but do we really need it? also a deck seems to be fast enough, so Tarnished Citadel seems to be ok too.

Leyline of the Void and Misdirection look strong. Cave-In or Pyrokinesis can be good also to deal with swarm decks. any ideas about other sb options?

[elof]

Show and Tell? It's great with fatties in hand and can also be hardcasted.

[rufus]

I think the Cycling -> Living End approach to this sort of thing is stronger because you'll end up with more cards in hand, so you have room to field Force of Will, and possibly Foil.

You could, at minimum cut one of the three cascade cards and replace it with Show and Tell.

[ykpon]

12 cascade spells are enough, especially when playing Street Wraiths. and Show&Tell has the same cost and worse effect, why to play it?

it seems to me a deck should look like:

2 Hypergenesis
12 Cascade Spells
8 Spirit Guides

0-4 Street Wraiths (can we a cut a couple of cascade spells playing this?)

X Multicolored Lands
Y Fatties
Z Protection (Fow, Unmask)

so X+Y+Z is equal to about 34-38, any ideas how to divide it better?


rufus, how are u going to fill ur grave so fast?

[TheCramp]

could this be the combo deck that benefits from serum powder? discuss, test...

[Master Shake]

I'm pretty sure this deck actually needs to use Forbidden Orchard so that you can force your opponent to have a target for Demonic Dread.

Also, When it comes to dealing with Counterbalance, my gut goes towards Reverent Silence, but fitting Fetchlands + Green duals into the deck may suck, but perhaps not as much as I think it will.

[TheCramp]

Here is the problem as I see it, "what is the god draw?"

Land, SSG, ESG, Violent Outburst, guy, guy, guy...

once you add unmask or FoW to that, you're playing bad reanimator.

[Bahamuth]

Here is the problem as I see it, "what is the god draw?"

Land, SSG, ESG, Violent Outburst, guy, guy, guy...

once you add unmask or FoW to that, you're playing bad reanimator.

No, because reanimator requires: Guy, Discard outlet and reanimate spell. This mechanism only requires the guy and the cascade spell. It's a pretty important difference.

[Jak]

No, because reanimator requires: Guy, Discard outlet and reanimate spell. This mechanism only requires the guy and the cascade spell. It's a pretty important difference.

No. Buried Alive/Intuition + reanimation spell is 2 cards

[Hunding Gjornersen]

Buried Alive/Intuition + Reanimate is at least 4 mana, is susceptible to graveyard hate, can't put Progenitus into play, and costs one reanimation spell per target.

[Jak]

Buried Alive/Intuition + Reanimate is at least 4 mana, is susceptible to graveyard hate, can't put Progenitus into play, and costs one reanimation spell per target.

Wtf? Did you read what I was responding to? I was pointing out how Reanimator strategies don't need 3 cards. Thanks for letting me know the obvious though.

[sunshine]

I wouldn't say the god draw for this deck is a turn one win. I would rather combo out on turn 2 or 3 with protection and put two dudes (Progenitus and Magister Sphinx?) into play. Against any deck packing FoW there's really no reason to combo out in the first couple turns - and if they're not playing Islands then your god hand doesn't need protection.

[ykpon]

Here is the problem as I see it, "what is the god draw?"

Land, SSG, ESG, Violent Outburst, guy, guy, guy...

once you add unmask or FoW to that, you're playing bad reanimator.

i don't think u're right here. how often will u really need 3 guys instead of 1 or 2? even versus fast storm combo disruption seems better. after some testing i incline toward a build with 7-8 Fow/Unmask because perhaps it's enough to garantee getting at least one fattie. just choose right fatties which are nearly impossible to deal with. not unprotected hasted fliers (though hellkite overlord is mb worth including) but fat untargetable progenitus, archangel and leviathan.

and how do u call it a bad reanimator? it's faster, it doesn't need a graveyard at all and it can use progenitus. where is it worse?

also mb nobody here cares, but about all this deck (but disruption) is 1.X legal. not that good against any level blue though.

[freakish777]

Isn't your best possible hand something like:

1 Cascade spell
2 lands
1 Spirt Guide
1 Progentius
1 Decree of Silence
1 FoW

draw 1 blue card off the top?

There needs to be more Decree of Silence in these lists.

[ykpon]

freakish777, if u replace the 2nd land with the 2nd spirit guide and Decree with a blue fattie, ur best possible hand will become even better, won't it?

what exactly do u want to counter with Decree after resolving Hypergenesis and putting a huge shroud creature into play?

stp? we don't care.
goyf? same.
deed? good luck.
diabolic edict? ok, it can hurt us, but we often have more than one beater and even if we dont edict isn't that popular.
wrath? nobody plays it.
natural order? humility? stiflenaught? hmm ok.. but..

[Blade]

A couple of things:

Manabase:

REFLECTING POOL!!!

Cascade:

Bloodbraid Elf can cascade into another cascade spell. Danger is it can also cascade into a SSG or ESG.

Permanents:

Decree of Silence seems unnecessary with things like Progenitus.

Perhaps Thunder Dragon or something like it to get rid of any weenies they drop?

Sphix of the Steel Wind is a great fattie if only because of lifelink.

If anyone's tried Street Wraith, let me know how it works. Seems good, but IDK.

EDIT: Oh, and Angel of Despair to get rid of some unwieldy permanents.

Sideboard:

Here's what I've got so far:

4x Wipe Away (vs Counterbalance and Confinement)
4x Leyline of the Void
4x FoW (not maindeck)
3x Loaming Shaman (just in case)

[rufus]

rufus, how are u going to fill ur grave so fast?

(This concept is cribbed from others. For example here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=337892&postcount=82)

Here's an off-the-cuff example.

Cycling Critters:
4x Street Wraith
4x Architects of Will
4x Monstrous Cabarid
4x Igneous Pouncer

Protection:
4x Force of Will
4x Foil
4x Unmask

Combo cards:
2x Living End
4x Violent Outburst
4x Ardent Plea

Lands...

Since the protection is free, the deck should be able to spend it's mana cycling cards on turns 1 and 2, and then fire off the combo on turn 3.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

Master Shake definitely has a point about Demonic Dread. Lots of people play early creatures in Legacy, but it'd be nice to ensure you have a target.

ykpon is 100% right about Pillar of Paruns. Good find.

Here's yet another list:

4 Adrent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
4 Demonic Dread

2 Hypergenisis

4 Progenitus
3 Magister Sphinx
4 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Sphinx Sovereign

3 Unmask
4 Force of Will

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Tinder Farm
4 Pillar of Paruns
4 Forbidden Orchard

It's slower than the previous list since no one has haste, but it's more focused on winning a turn after resolving Hypergenesis. The shroud guys have built-in disruption in that you don't need to worry about them getting plowed or anything. Maybe the Unmasks should be Misdirections so the Sovereigns could become Archangels. Hurray for mythic rares.

[keys]

That list looks pretty solid to me. Anyone playtesting it? Serum Powder would probably be helpful in here. Dunno what to cut though.

[dirtyapes]

I know that it might not be a great suggestion but what about using a card like Scroll Rack with Cascade to make sure that you can hit your Cascade cards or what you want to hit with Cascade. SDT seems like another choice for the slot but Scroll Rack does give the advantage of using cards in your hand to fix the top of your library.
I know it doesn't seem too strong but I thought I'd throw the idea out there.

[freakish777]

freakish777, if u replace the 2nd land with the 2nd spirit guide and Decree with a blue fattie, ur best possible hand will become even better, won't it?


You're serious???

No. You're best hand will have FoW back up. Waiting 1 turn is worth it. Further, if you somehow fail to resolve your Cascade spell (they Duressed)/Hypergenesis (they successfully counter it, incidently, you'd never counter the Cascade spell, since they all suck, you'd let it resolve, then counter the Hypergenesis), you now have 2 mana sources instead of 1 (so all you need to do is draw 1 more mana source + 1 Cascade spell, not 2 mana sources and 1 Cascade spell). Trust me, the trade off is worth it.




what exactly do u want to counter with Decree after resolving Hypergenesis and putting a huge shroud creature into play?

I take it you've never played against combo decks? DoS makes it possible to play a turn 1, 2 or even 3 Hypergenesis and and not lose to "Rit Rit Ad Nauseum Kill You" or "LED, Cephalid Colesium, Crack LED, flashback DA, replace with Dredge, etc, Kill You" or "Turn 1 Nomad En-Kor, Turn 2 Cephalid Illusionist, Kill You (no I don't care you have Progenitus, my guy is a 40 power haste trampler and tramples over all your guys)" etc, etc.

The odds your opponent can play through DoS/Dovescape and still win when you have a Progenitus/Akroma on the board also seem astronomically low (no matter what deck they're playing).

Further, DoS at that point isn't going to counter Humility/Deed/Goyf, they just bust all those permanents into play off your Hypergenesis (so possibly you want to play your own Deeds to handle things they drop in, it still stops the Cephalid Breakfast combo because they still have to resolve Dread Return).


@Blade:

Reflecting Pool is not Legacy playable, and very likely never will be.

[Master Shake]

I've been playtesting with this list, I hope that some of you will take a look at it and do the same:



4 Angel of Despair
2 Empyrial Archangel
4 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Progenitus

4 Force of Will

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Hypergenesis
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
4 Ardent Plea

Sideboard

4 Reverent Silence/Krosan Grip
4 Form of the Dragon
3 Thunder Dragon
4 Open Slots (Leyline seems like a good option)

This list takes away a bit of the post-hypergenesis explosiveness of previous builds and replaces it with a bunch of dumb creatures with shroud. So that even if you can only get two or... one (although I don't think its often going to be worth it to put one creature down) you can be pretty sure that nothing short of Humility, Wrath or an edict will remove it, unless its Angel of Despair. I wanted to avoid sloppy situations where you drop two creatures and your opponent drops a Sower of Temptation into play. Angel of Despair will take care of that and fundamentally has shroud as far as that is concerned. It can also just entirely negate an opponent's best drop off the Genesis.

Thunder Dragon comes in for Force of Will against any deck that doesn't play cards you care about (Goblins, Zoo, etc.)

[nodahero]

@MAster Shake: I definetly think you should cut it down to 2 hypergenesis... After all of my testing it seems like 2 is sufficent. In place of it I would add a set of Unmask or Misdirect while also cutting the fatty count a bit. Protecting your shit is gonna be key in making this deck work.

[Master Shake]

@MAster Shake: I definetly think you should cut it down to 2 hypergenesis... After all of my testing it seems like 2 is sufficent. In place of it I would add a set of Unmask or Misdirect while also cutting the fatty count a bit. Protecting your shit is gonna be key in making this deck work.

As I said, it isn't tested yet. I'm not running the same black cards that others are so supporting Unmask seems unlikely. I'll see about fitting Misdirection in.

3 Hypergenesis is there so that I can draw one and still be able to go off twice. I don't want the game to be over after once copy is countered and one is stuck in my hand. Because lets face it, if you suspend this card, its not resolving. It gives them too much time to figure out a way to deal with it.

[ReAnimator]

Would nullstone gargoyle have a place in here? or is just having harder to deal with guys good enough?

[jjjoness']

I'm not sure if this deck can compete in Legacy, but I'm quite sure I'll see some play in Extended. It's very easy to hate though, since this deck just dies to CotV@0.

[sunshine]

Anyone have thoughts on the SB? The problem cards for the deck are most notably Chalice and Counterbalance. Goblins could also be problematic if the list isn't geared to win on the turn you cascade out (which I'm not convinced is should be). Something like:

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
4 Firespout

Seems like a decent starting point. There seem to be plenty of solid multicolor options so I'm trying to air in that direction to keep Pillar viable in the main deck.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

Eureka gets around Chalice @ 0, Stifle (cascade is a triggered ability), and usually CounterTop. It also doesn't need a target so maybe it's better than Demonic Dread.

[ykpon]

just a thought. we can use Supply/Demand. it is multicolor, it pitches to FoW and it can find everything we need but mana: Progenitus, Archangel, Despair, a cascade spell, Maelstrom Pulse/Mortify (both seems better than vindi here, i suppose), Jund Charm (seems more useful than spout) etc. on the other hand it makes us slower a turn and sometimes makes spirit guides quite uneuseful, so dunno.

[Master Shake]

just a thought. we can use Supply/Demand. it is multicolor, it pitches to FoW and it can find everything we need but mana: Progenitus, Archangel, Despair, a cascade spell, Maelstrom Pulse/Mortify (both seems better than vindi here, i suppose), Jund Charm (seems more useful than spout) etc. on the other hand it makes us slower a turn and sometimes makes spirit guides quite uneuseful, so dunno.

Except that when you Cascade you're liable to hit Supply.

[ykpon]

Except that when you Cascade you're liable to hit Supply.
i thought in this way: cascade looks at the total cmc 5 (like Dark Confidant) and goes to the next card. nvm if i'm wrong :rolleyes:

[Nonex]

Dark Confidant doesn't look at split cards that way, no one actually does. Split cards just provide two answers to every question they're asked.

Dark Confidant: What's your CMC?
Supply/Demand: 2, and 3.

You lose 2 and 3 life (not exactly the same as losing 5).

Cascade spell: Do you have CMC 2 or less?
Supply/Demand: Yes, and no.

Since one of the answers is valid, this card is valid.

[gottfrid]

One problem as I see it is that you obviously don't want hypergenesis stuck in your hand. that's why I think it's correct to only play two (hypergenesis), cut the bad cascade card (the red black one) and add show and tell.

This makes for a more stable manabase and provides an extra out against chalice @ 0, extirpate and counterbalance which all wreck the combo.

Im still trying to figure out which is best of Fow and thwart, considering you pretty much need every card in your hand for the combo to be good.

It's a real shame that split cards are played by the cascade effect, not because I like the multicolor tutor one bit, but rather because fire // ice would be a very fine addition to the deck by cantripping and killing early creatures. Can someone verify that fire // ice will actually stop the cascade.

Anyway, here's a list Im testing:

CREATURES (22)
4 Empyrial Archangel
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Angel of Despair
4 Progenitus
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Simian Spirit Guide
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Ardent Plea
SORCERIES (6)
2 Hypergenesis
4 Show and Tell
INSTANTS (8)
4 Violent Outburst
4 Force of Will
LANDS (20)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Thwart
4 Arcane Laboratory


Any suggestions?

[Master Shake]

@gottfrid - Arcane Lab seems Megabad. I think you'd want to run at least 8 rainbow lands because you want to always be able to cast either of the cascade cards off any 2 lands, or be able to drop outburst off and 2 Spirit guides and a single land. City of Brass and Gemstone Mine really don't have a down side as you shouldn't be casting many spells. Even Forbidden Orchard's downside is going to be minimized when you drop something like Hellkite or Progenitus into play. In all of the playing I did today, I never lost due to any number of Spirit tokens.

@ykpon - I really wish that it didn't work that way because Demand would be really great, it could tutor for a dumbass creature or a Cascader.

If Hypergenesis gets stuck in your hand, you can always suspend it.

I was testing the deck for the first time and Bogardan Hellkite is certainly going to find a place in my board, but for the MD I like SSS and/or Sundering Titan.

I think you need to consider what you're going to do against control for the SB. Also, I'm looking for something to make combo winnable - Resolving Hypergenesis against ANT meant I always lost.

Against Threshold/Landstill I think that 3 Hypergenesis or a back up plan like Show & Tell is a must. Right now I'm running 3 Dread, 4 Plea & Outburst, but I can see the 3 Dreads becoming Show and Tell. I'll test my list a bit more and get back with my results.

My Current List:

4 Angel of Despair
3 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Empyrial Archangel
4 Progenitus
2 Sundering Titan (Missing a Levithian and SSS, but these guys may stay around or move to board.)
3 Inkwell Levithian
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (I don't own but intend to go up to 61 to add)
4 Violent Outburst

3 Demonic Dread
3 Hypergenesis

4 Ardent Plea

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island


My current SB: (likely to see a lot of changes)

4 Form fo the Dragon
4 Krosan Grip
4 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Eureka
1 Show and Tell

My observations about the deck after play testing for about 4 hours:

Cascade - You Must Cascade but you May play the Casaded card. Which means if they flip to Counterbalance for your Cascade Enabler, then you will be able to see if there is a Zero-Cost on top that can counter your Hypergenesis.

If your opponent ever starts responding to the spell before you start cascading, be glad because that means they may not be intending to counter Hypergenesis. Stifle sucks, though.

Progenitus, Empyrial Archangel, Simic Sky Swallower and Inkwell Levithian, none of these creatures block Goblin Piledriver.

Violent Outbusrting blockers into play is amazing.

Empyrial Archangel sometimes is Spore Frog.

In control heavy metagames, I think the mostly shroud plan is the way to go. For other metagames I can see just wanting to beat for as much damage as fast as possible.

Orim's Chant is kind of like Hinder against this deck.

Its a lot more resilient than I guessed and than you may guess. Chalice at zero and/or Trinisphere still sucks, though.

Sideboard stuff

I was having a lot of trouble with ANT even if I was able to combo, like I said And so I was brainstorming ways to deal with it, here's a short list:

Kaervek the Merciless - Making spells equate to damage seems good. they can really only Ad Nauseam for about half the number of cards.

Decree of Silence - It doesn't deal damage but it is +3 CA if you back this up with just about any creature you should have a good chance of getting there.

Spirit of the Hearth - It gives you protection from cards that win the game but you are open to bounce spells. Not dead in multiples like Kaervek and Decree of Silence, though. But this cat also isn't a very good clock.

True Believer - Keeping in trend with my suggestions for how to combat the combo mirror, True Believer is great if your opponent doesn't have access to a bounce spell. Simply cascading into him would be really cute if it worked, but it probably won't work.

Form of the Dragon - The only real non-creature solution the deck has access to. It puts you in a bad position against burn, but you don't scoop up a bunch of cards to WoG. Amazing in multiples and should have huge surprise factor as no one is likely to bring in Krosan Grip. Keeps ground pounders at and arm's length.

Eureka - Its one of the solutions I have for combating Counterbalance other than trying to go off faster. The 4-cost is difficult to play CB and against threshold you should have some time to assemble mana. This may be better as Show and Tell, but this is what I'm testing for the moment.

Bogardan Hellkite - Another card to bring in against control. Even if it gets sent to the RFG zone it has dealt five damage. Really great against aggro decks as it can clean up any swarms that they lay down off Hypergenesis.

Nullstone Gargoyle - I've been terrified about WoG and this was one of my early solutions to deal with it. He doesn't seem like he's going to be as great as I hope he will be as its generally pretty easy to throw one spell at him and then resolve the spell you care about. The good news is that if you Cascade with him in play the Genesis will resolve, the bad news is that your opponent's counterspell can resolve as well.

Blazing Archon - Keeps swarms at bay, but he's only going to be useful against aggro decks that don't have access to removal, this could however win against Ichorid, which is what I'm most hopeful for. Probably won't make the cut, however.

Sundering Titan - Against a control deck Titan will take away most of the advantage they would gain off of Hypergenesis, another potentional answer of mine to WoG. Still no good answer on Humility, though.

I'm out of sideboard ideas for now aside from Leyline of the Void.

Edit: Wow I just tested my 3 Demonic Dread slots as Show and Tell and it was amazing. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to cut the Dreads and run Show and Tell. I may cut back down to 2 Hypergenesis but I'm still liking three of them.

[gustha]

Hi everyone. I'm interested in this deck (always interested in new things) and I'd like to ask: has anyone tried to sneak in some ancestral vision to refill the hand? It may be good against control deck, and its suspended cost is viable to being played from hand.

[gottfrid]

@gustha: It destroys the combo, unfortunately.

Otherwise it might've been too slow or pretty good. it's also really easily countered


Also, Im willing to agree that archangel seems pretty bad. The blue card is much needed for FoW however and I don't think that inkwell leviathan or SSS is better.

[gustha]

Yes, but if you fail to combo twice, or in mirror match, you're much willing to remain with no fuel. However, i've tested a couple of matches, and i strongly prefer bogardan hellkite above all (magister sphinx + 2 bogardan = I win ^^). I noticed that there's no way to fill our hands, the redundancy of fatties don't help too much. Unfortunately, tutoring/manipulating spell cost less then our cascade spells...

[sunshine]

The problem with Ancestral is that you never want to be hitting it while you're cascading. Either Hypergenesis resolves and you get to dump you hand or it doesn't and you keep the fatties in hand and so have no need to refill it if you have the ability to cascade again. Also, suppose for some reason that you do need to refill your hand (read: you have no beef) and you get to cascade, how much would it suck to hit Hypergenesis here with nothing to drop in play?

[MSC]

For Fighting other Combo: How about some Pyrostatic Pillars? You don't want to play more than 2-4 Spells the whole Game, while they want to play around 10.
You can Hard-Cast it and Cascade into it. Seems fair to me.

[Alfred]

Decree of Silence seems awesome to me. Why wouldn't it be played mainboard?

[Moczoc]

I'm developing this deck too with a friend. Our so far final decklist is very simple compact and strong.

Fatties
4 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Empyrial Archangel
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Progenitus

Other spells
2 Hypergenesis
4 Force of Will
12 "Cascade-spell-for-3"

Mana
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Pillar of the Paruns
2 City of Brass
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

SB
4 Firespout <- against Meddling Mage and fast aggro
4 Krosan Grip <- against Counterbalance and Chalice
4 Platinum Angel <- against fast aggro and some combo decks
3 City of Solitude <- against counters



Some things we realized:

- every creature has to be immune to Stp or you will lose tons of games
- Pillar of Paruns is nice, but only 2 or 3 can be included because of the SB cards
- Violent Outburst is fun because it is an instant, and Ardent Plea gives Exalted to make the kill faster sometimes
- Forbidden Orchard gives targets for Demonic Dread
- Show and Tell is bad because you can only put 1 beater into play which often is too less
- Play many many big creatures to put the maximum into play with Hypergenesis

[gustha]

Add this: red akroma is pure evil...nice try the intuition of forbidden orchard. Is there room for misdirection to protect the combo better?

[Master Shake]

@MSC - The problem with Pillar is that they only generally play 8 spells that will deal them damage before they tendrils you out. If you hit two it just pressures them to find Echoing Truth. It also can destroy your ability to win the game.

@Alfred - Decree of Silence doesn't attack for damage, kind of a big deal.

@Gustha 1. Ancestral Visions ruins the ability to combo, that was covered all ready. There are a lot of ways to go with the creature suite in the deck

@Moczoc - I'm pretty sure that Platinum Angel just dies to some burn spell or some removal that was left in if you're playing against fast aggro. I don't think I'd play Pillar of the Paruns over City of Brass 3 and 4.

I gave a lot of consideration to running Red Akroma myself but I was just a lot happier with the Sundering Titans that are in my deck right now. I thought about going Swords-proof I may still make the switch to Red Akroma.

I gave some thought to a Firespout like slot last night and I'm pretty sure that if you're going to play it that it should be Volcanic Fallout if you intend to hit a meddling mage with it. Firespout will hit things against Zoo, but I don't think that zoo is a problem.

Moczoc didn't like Show and Tell but I like that it gets around Chalice at 0, doesn't require a target and allows me to go off even when I've spent my Hypergenesis (which in my playtesting I've gone through all three of them several times) It doesn't put everything into play but it should generally put enough into play.

I don't think that I'd play more than 2 Archangels becuase zoo decks can take them down, and if that is what I'm leaning on, I'm out.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

I don't understand why no one's considering Eureka. It dodges Chalice @ 0, CounterTop, Meddling Mage, and Stifle. It also doesn't require a target and is forgiving if somehow you draw both Hypergenesis'. One extra mana seems like a small price to pay for all that. You also get to drop all your fatties. This matters since your opponent might be able to drop one bomb, like Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, or maybe even a Progenitus, but it's much less likely they'll have a hand-full of busted expensive permanents.

What happens if this deck works and gets popular? What do you do about the mirror match?

[ykpon]

Hunding Gjornersen, S&T is still a better option for dodging chalice, mage and balance. even one mana is a lot for this deck and the ability to pitch for FoW and Misdirection is nice too. and ok, Eureka costs $100+ a set beeing nearly absolutely unplayable :tongue:

in my opinion if u want to build a deck around Eureka u shouldn't play cascade+Hypergenesis at all. something with Intuitions and perhaps Brainstorm+Ponder+fetchlands seems better with it. also it allows u playing Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, which is obviously bad for a cascade deck.

and about Intuition: how about using it in a cascade deck? it's blue and it tutors for everything we need. on the other hand it slows us down at the first sight. but mb it can give us that time back allowing any fast combo kill? though no idea yet what kind of combo it should be. no doubt, something including cards, which aren't bad by themselves. any thoughts?

[Forbiddian]

I can't think of any, but you have to be able to make the combo fatal the turn you resolve your cascade or at most one turn after.

It seems this deck is simply slower than turn 2 dreadnought, let alone actual combo decks.



Crap, Dream Halls is still banned. What a crock of shit.

[Barook]

I can't think of any, but you have to be able to make the combo fatal the turn you resolve your cascade or at most one turn after.

It seems this deck is simply slower than turn 2 dreadnought, let alone actual combo decks.
Maybe some combination of Hellkite Overlord, Borgardan Hellkite and Clone? :eyebrow:

[freakish777]

I can't think of any, but you have to be able to make the combo fatal the turn you resolve your cascade or at most one turn after.

See my first post for killing on the spot (PandeBurst combo works, it just requires specific cards which is bad, you could try Idyllic tutor, but that's still bad), or trying to ensure you don't lose afterwards (DoS/Dovescape, Plats + Nullstone Gargoyle, etc).

Other possibilities:

Dual Nature + Bogardan Hellkites + Kokushos + Hellkite Overlords?

Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund + Dragon Tyrant?


Yet more ideas (probably not good): Shriekmaw/Aethersnipe gives you removal that doesn't get cascaded, and deals with things your opponent might drop that you don't want in play off your Hypergenesis.




EDIT:

Guile + Dovescape anyone???

Also Petradon + Nullstone Gargoyle/Kira Great Glass Spinner.

[Master Shake]

I don't understand how you can want to run a two card combo in a deck with zero tutor and draw. Using Idyllic Tutor and/or Intuition there very likely is a way to build this deck in a way that can support a two card combo but you're really not presenting a list where it seems viable.

Without Tutor and chaff cards: Anything you put into play has to be able to do the job by itself or with a little bit of help from any other card in the deck that you would put into play.

[freakish777]

I don't understand how you can want to run a two card combo in a deck with zero tutor and draw. Using Idyllic Tutor and/or Intuition there very likely is a way to build this deck in a way that can support a two card combo but you're really not presenting a list where it seems viable.

The reason to play a 2 card combo is if there's a reason you need to "Kill Now."

Also, Dovescape and Guile aren't terrible on their own (Dovescape does stop AdN Tendrils/TES from doing anything ever, Guile is a 6/6 almost unblockable with a relevant ability if you have FoW in hand).

[b4r0n]

The reason to play a 2 card combo is if there's a reason you need to "Kill Now."

Also, Dovescape and Guile aren't terrible on their own (Dovescape does stop AdN Tendrils/TES from doing anything ever, Guile is a 6/6 almost unblockable with a relevant ability if you have FoW in hand).

I think the problem is that since you have no way of assembling the two card combo, you'll often be left some combination of mediocre cards to drop into play off a Hypergenesis. It just seems stronger to run cards that are legitimate threats rather than lock pieces.

[kraftwerk]

After testing this deck for couple hours, I found Flame-Kin Zealot to be a game winner. Giving haste to all of the great creatures can turn a kill that is a couple of turns away into a win on the same turn.

[Master Shake]

Karona in previous lists basically does the same thing for a hasty dragon win. Sadly Zealot on his own isn't much better than dropping a spirit guide into play. Not that Karona is any good either.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

Good point about Eureka costing $100+. That's relevant in a format with very few proxy tournaments (I'm used to 10+ proxy Vintage).

If we're not going to play specific 2-card combos (for after Hypergenesis), then Drift of Phantasms would be better for finding a cascade spell than Intuition since it's a guy. The difference is marginal, but having a few more options is always a plus.

[Brushwagg]

Well if you were going to go with a 2 card combo why not Kiki-Jiki and Sky Hussar? You don't have to wait a turn to attack and you have to deal with less cards your opponent could play or drop via Genesis.


I really do think that you want your creatures to have haste. Anyone thought of Fires of Yavimaya. You can drop it via Genesis and it won't mess with Cascade.

[Clark Kant]

Well if you were going to go with a 2 card combo why not Kiki-Jiki and Sky Hussar?

sounds like a fantastic idea. kiki is useful

[ykpon]

Well if you were going to go with a 2 card combo why not Kiki-Jiki and Sky Hussar?

Hussar is pretty bad w/o Kiki. it seems to me if we want to become faster, we can steal some 1.x tech playing Wound Reflection. it gives us one turn win with Sphinx and 2 turns win with Progenitus, beeing ok with any other creature.

[Master Shake]

I actually played the deck, my results were pretty mixed, check my previous posts for the list I played:

Round 1: Berserk Stompy

Game 1: I think he's playing Pox, so I keep a hand with Hypergenesis and some creatures. He leads Forest, 2 power guy. I lose with Hypergenesis at one counter. I board out Misdirection, Sundering Titan and FoW for a Thunder Dragon, 4 Bogardan Hellkite and 2 Form of the Dragon.

Game 2: I keep a hand with a Violent Outburst and Form of the Dragon and three lands and some creatures. I go for it. At the end of his 3rd turn's precombat main phase I play Violent Outburst and put Form of the Dragon and some creatures into play, he concedes.

Game 3: Mulligan I keep a hand of Tropical Island, Progentius, Angel of Despair, Thunder Dragon, Simian Spirit Guide, Violent Outburst. I keep it and hope to draw a land as my 7th card, instead I draw a Simian Spirit Guide and drop my hand after he delcares attackers. He actually puts 2 Kavu Predators into play and Double Invigorates to keep them alive through Thunder Dragon (He only needed to play one, he flashes me double berserk in his hand.) I attack for 20.

Round 2: Goblins (Rbg)

Game 1 - I win the die roll and have 2 lands + Spirit Guide + Show and Tell (2) along with Progenitus and Inkwell Levithian . I lead City of Brass, Go. He wastelands it. I play another land and pass, he plays a Lackey. I play land, Show and Tell (Progenitus) He puts in Ringleader while I start to lecture him about how my Progentius has protection from everything. He reveals not Warren Weirding. He starts complaining about how he wants to hit warren weirding, I tell him not to draw it and he doesn't He attacks in and I block Lackey. I play another And Tell on my turn (he misses a land drop) putting my Levithian into play, he is aghast that I even played the Show and Tell and expects me to lose because of it as his Goblin Tutor gets a Warren Weirding. He doesn't realize I can't lose to that card. I attack and put him at 8. He Warren Weirdings me I sacrifice not Progenitus and win next turn.

-4 Force of Will -1 Misdirection +4 Bogardan Hellkite +1 Thunder Dragon

Game 2: He ports and Wastelands me out of the game. I lose to bad goblins.

Game 3: I keep a hand of 3x Lands ESG, 3x Big dumb creatures. I play land, he wastelands it. I play land, he plays a Lackey. I play land, he plays some dumb goblin. I draw an Ardent Plea and play along with a land. I put into play 1 ESG, 1 Empyrial Archangel, 1 Progenitus, 1 Simic Sky Swallower, 1 Inkwell Levithian. My opponet puts into play 2 creatures, Goblin Warchief and something else that doesn't matter. On his turn he plays 2x Warren Weirding and complains that I put too many creatures into play. I win again!

Round 3: UGbw Threshold

Game 1: I attempt a Show and Tell with Force back-up. He has 4 cards in hand. Two of them are FoW and two of them are blue cards. I concede to a Vendillion Clique so he doesn't see what I'm playing.

Game 2: I attempt a Show and Tell, he counters it. I force, he counters it again. I concede to taking lethal damage. At least he didn't see anything other than Show and Tell.

I actually ID with Landstill, I would have played it out for fun, but I needed to keep my surprise alive. I think its winnable with my build of the deck.

I scoop to the same threshold list in the T8, because I can't win. It has too much stuff. But, I won some games. I had a lot of fun playing this deck, and watching an autistic kid beat people with Berserk Stompy (not my first round opponent, although he beat my first round opponent round 2.)

[Isamaru]

You would play this deck... haha anyway, nice job.

That Autistic kid with Berserk stompy took me to game 3 too in a tournament... it scared the crap out of me that I almost lost. Also, we were playing in a proxy tournament and he had a few things proxied - but the Berserks were all real haha...

[Jolly_roger]

So what does people think about Pandemonium//Saproling Burst as the kill condition, hardcasting would be a backup-plan which dodges counterbalance reasonably.

[Master Shake]

This doesn't sound too bad, becasue you may be able to win with Pandemonium + a bunch of dumbass creatures anyway, but Saproling burst is basically dead on its own.

I don't like it becasue I can't Show and Tell someone about my Pandemonioum, so I'm likely not even going to test it, but if someone tests it and tells me its good enough, I'll likely give it a shot. I'm like that.

[zabuza]

I like this deck because it looks very funny. I think troubles with counterbalance and chalice of the void could be solved playing reverent silence but creatures with evoke can be the solution: Wispmare and Ingot chewer. In the worst case ingot chewer can be palyed as a small beater or play something like that.

Show and tell could be an interesting option, but in this case ancient tomb could be an option to play it faster. The only problem is that cascade cards need colored mana.

Unmask is good but i think that FOW and Misdirection are enough countereffects to ensure your cascade card is going to enter. Anyways you could use BOSEIJU to solve that problem (only with two of the three options).

Peace.

[Hopo]

I like this deck because it looks very funny. I think troubles with counterbalance and chalice of the void could be solved playing reverent silence..
..which doesn't hit chalice, but against counterbalance it is awesome.


Unmask is good but i think that FOW and Misdirection are enough countereffects to ensure your cascade card is going to enter. Anyways you could use BOSEIJU to solve that problem (only with two of the three options).


Boseiju doesn't make Hypergenesis uncounterable, only the cascade spell, which is just plain worthless because cascade triggers anyway.

Evoke-dudes and other alternative casting cost cards are at home in this deck. It's pretty awesome but the balance between combo peaces, protection and others is hard to achieve.

[zabuza]

I think using Unmask, force of will and misdirection we had lot of chances to resolve the genesis spell after cascading.

Beside of that we have cards as abolish (destroys chalices, counterbalance),crash, mogg salvage, and so on to deal with anything. Also we have Wipe away to bounce at the end of turn the thing is disturbing us (remeber split second) so we can combo outr in our turn.

Another card we can use to make our combo go through is sirocco, but itsa cc2 make it unplayable.

A good card is Bant Charm because it fills 3 roles on the deck. It can counter, it can destroy artifacts (chalice) and it can wipe away meddling mages or so. The only problem is that is multicolored and requires white , but we are using lot of multicolored lands anyway so....

Another option i´m considering is playing vexing shuser MD so if we cascade and shusher appears then next time we cascade for sure it will be resolved. In tha case shuser doesn´t appears and opponent counter our genesis we will cascade later and so on.

Anyways i think having 4 fows, 4 unmask and 4 misdirection is easy to combo out, isn´t it?

How many fatties we need to use in the deck in order to play 2, 3 or more when we cascade?? The best creatures i can think aboy are:

Progenitus: Can be pitched to fow, misdi or unmask(so multiples in hand is not a problem) and it is a 10/10 that has protection from anything. 4 for me please

Magister sphinx: Can be pitched to fow, misdi and unmask. 5/5 flier that "deals 10 damage" when it comes into play. 4 for me too

Inkwell leviathan: a fattie that can be pitched to fow and misdi. I think 4 of this too.

Empyreal Archangel: Can be pitched to fow or misdi and is a 5/8 shroud flier that helps you to survive. $ of them too?

Simic SKY swallower: A 6/6 flier trampler that can be pitched to fow and misdi and has shroud is enough good for me.

Special mention to Doran the siegue tower. It could be pitched to unmask, and makes leviathan, and archangel beats for lot of more. Beside of that he can be played by himself. What do you think about it?

So now we have 3 ways to win (comboing, using show and tell or playing Doran for the win).

Another creatures i´m thinking about are: Bogardan hellkite, Red akroma, Phantom noshoba.


Any thoughts?

[ykpon]

zabuza, did u count number of cards u described? i can do it for u: 12 disruption, at least 18 lands, 8 guides, 16 fatties and 2 genesis is 56. so 4 cascade spells or what? it's quite difficult to make a stable deck even with 8 cards of disruption, 12 seems impossible. personally, i prefer sacrificing some consistency to make a deck faster too, so i play only 12 beaters and only 8 cascade spells. but i also have 4 Street Wraiths (must have imo, though they are the only card u can cut for the 5-8th disruption spells) and 4 Serum Powders (still in testing, were 3 additional cascade spells and 1 land before) there.

also i'm testing Gemstone Caverns now and as for me they are wonderful here. u nearly always have unneeded cards in ur hand (additional lands and guides, hypergenesis, additional cascade spells, serum powder in my build etc.), so removing a card isn't an issue. and flash-like turn 0-1 combos are always nice, u know it.

[zabuza]

Well, i´m trying to find the point of quantities for the deck.

Anyway i wasn´t telling that i´ll use all cards mentioned above, but only giving ideas.

Gemstone caverns are good because it helps you to combo out soon but the only problem is that if start playing cavern only provides colorless mana.

What could be the best decklist for you now?

[Maveric78f]

How is cascade hypergenesis better than eureka itself ???

I just don't get it. You gain 1 mana but you lose brainstorm+ponder, the CB/chalice@0/stifle resilience, etc...

[jjjoness']

You can play 12+ copies of the card, so you don't need tutors.
BTW. the deck is quite viable in extended.

[sunshine]

This might sounds like complete jank, and is untested (which will change once I'm out of school in a couple weeks), but the Borderposts from Alara Reborn might be worthwhile in this deck. They allow you to still run a rainbow land base but at the same time provide resilience to Moon/Wasteland effects. Obviously they also have a cmc of 3 so they wont screw with your cascades. This deck has no plays turn 1 or 2 so there is no loss of tempo either.

[ykpon]

What could be the best decklist for you now?

here's what i'm testing now:

2 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
4 [DIS] Pillar of the Paruns (not sure about these yet. in about 1 game of 10 i have some troubles with suspending genesis / hardcasting FoW or even Leviathan. so mb it should be 2 Cities and 2 something else)
4 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns (still testing)

4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

4 [FUT] Street Wraith (i think it can be cut but deck thinning is always nice when playing combo. pitches to Unmask and Gemstone Caverns if u run it. can be put into play by Hypergenesis as a blocker against aggro decks)

4 [CNF] Progenitus
4 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
4 [CNF] Inkwell Leviathan (with such number of beaters i often have only one or two in hand when playing cascade, that's why they all have shroud)

2 [TSP] Hypergenesis
4 [ARB] Violent Outburst (the best cascade one, can be played turn 0 sometimes)
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea (sometimes can't be played turn 1 even with full hand of spirit guides. and exalted does nearly nothing here, but blue colour does, that's why it isn't Demonic Dread which also needs Forbidden Orchard to be playable)

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] Serum Powder (still testing)

SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse (answers nearly everything we hate: Ensnaring Bridge, MeMage, Counterbalance, Chalice, Humility, Moat, Dreadnaught. also it's green so can be played a turn faster with Spirit Guide if needed)
SB: 7 free slots (u want to run additional answers like Vindicate and additional disruption like Misdirection here but the thing is that u haven't that much cards to side out for them in general matchups. so i think these slots should be left for matches where we don't expect additional hate so don't side Pulse in too. mb something like Firespout/Cave-in for swarm agro decks. and mb Faerie Macabre or Fracturing Gust. or mb something like Nullstone Gargoyle/Platinum Angel to replace our beaters against combo, dunno. fresh sb ideas are welcome)


Borderposts from Alara Reborn might be worthwhile in this deck. They allow you to still run a rainbow land base
how do they allow it if they work only with basic lands?

[kicks_422]

4 Gemstone Caverns? It's legendary - you might have troubles with that.

[ykpon]

4 Gemstone Caverns? It's legendary - you might have troubles with that.
but if it causes me to go second each game, i obviously want to see it as often as possible. ans if i get 2 in my start hand, i just can pitch one into another, right? :rolleyes:

[sunshine]

You might be able to justify running one Caverns but drawing them in multiples, especially if you're on the play, is almost a death sentence. Every colorless mana souce beyond the first is going to be a dead draw, especially when you're going to want to count a Spirit Guide as a colorless source much of the time. Also, I think it might be better to just have the extra cards in hand to either protect your Hypergenesis or drop an extra fatty into play rather than try to go off a turn earlier without protection/enough beef to lay down.

[ykpon]

especially if you're on the play
but why the hell will i ever be on the play? i mean if u're playing against fast combo and win a die roll, will u really give him the first turn because he can theoretically have Gemstone Caverns in hand?


drawing them in multiples is almost a death sentence.
as i've alredy said if i get two Caverns, i just pitch one to another. chances of drawing more than two are low enough to forget about them. if in one game of fifty i suddenly get 4 Caverns in my start hand, i just can mulligan, if that's what u're talking about.


Also, I think it might be better to just have the extra cards in hand to either protect your Hypergenesis
i don't get this point. try goldfishing this deck some times, u will always have 1-2 cards of unneeded trash: 2 or more cascade spells, 2 or more Progenitus, superfluous lands/guides, hypergenesis, serum powder and so on. always, regardless of the build u run. so u have a choise: for example, to combo off turn 3 with that trash (like the 4th land) staying in ur hand or to pitch it to Gemstone Caverns and combo off turn 2 with same level of protection.

though obviously Caverns have some drawbacks too. the first one is that getting one in ur start hand and then topdecking another one sucks. but we really care only about first 1-2 topdecks, so chances of such situation aren't more than 6%, seems low enough. the other drawback is that we always have to go second, that can be relevant against some kind of daze or thoughtseize. that's why i'm not sure about Caverns yet. but if i decide to run it i will no doubt play a full set.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So how well can this work around Blood Moon effects? Just curious because it seems like a total loss if one resolves...

Pce,

--DC

[hwtcharger07]

here is what I am working on

Lands:
4x gemstone mine
4x forbidden orchard
4x city of brass
8x invasion sac lands

Creatures:
4x simian spirit guide
4x elvish spirit guide
4x varchild's wariders
4x inkwell leviathan
2x magister sphinx
4x progenitus
1x mephidross vampire
1x triskelion

Spells:
4x Defense of the heart
2x hypergenesis
4x ardent plea
2x demonic dread
4x violent outburst

i think this deck gives a decent chance of a turn 2 hypergenesis, but more importantly has a good defense of the heart package, DotH can also be dropped via hypergenesis after the opponent has played 3 creatures, varchild's wariders garuntee your opponent has three creatures in play, forbidden orchard helps with this as well in addition to giving targets for demonic dread.

[ykpon]

Dark_Cynic87, elvish spirit guide + violent outburst looks like the only way out. after sb it can also be spirit guide + krosan grip + another cascade spell. or u can fow/unmask it. or sometimes race it.

hwtcharger07, war-riders have cmc2, ok? though Defense of the heart looks nice, but u really need another way to give ur opponent 3 creatures besides orchard. and if u find it, u should include any 2 creatures combo which kills ur opponent, not his creatures. for example, Kiki-Jiki + Sky Hussar.

some thoughts about mana base. i dont think Pillar should be played anymore. the ability to hardcast FoW, Hypergenesis or Leviathan is nearly always unnessesary. but access to sb Krosan Grip is. really, beeing uncounterable it answers everything we don't like but MeMage: Ensnaring Bridge, Chalise, Trinisphere, Dreadnaught, Moat, Humility, Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Confinement, Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, Isochron Scepter and so on. also, Volcanic Fallout seems a better way to deal with Memage and goblins. and it isn't multicolored too. without Pillars we still have enough rainbow lands. Tendo and Mine are the best ones. Undiscovered Paradise looks like a nice 2- or 3-of. then City of Brass, i guess. if u don't run Caverns u can complete ur mana base adding a couple Orchards of Forsaken Cities.

[sunshine]

but why the hell will i ever be on the play? i mean if u're playing against fast combo and win a die roll, will u really give him the first turn because he can theoretically have Gemstone Caverns in hand?

This sentence does not make sense, can you please explain who the fast combo is you're referring to? If the fast combo is us and you're implying that we should choose to draw first every game I can assure you that is not the best plan - maybe it works well when gold fishing but in actual games this deck is going to have trouble with Thoughtseize/Duress or a resolved Counterbalance. If the fast combo is the other player, then absolutely I'm going to want to play first... If you agree that we should choose to play first then... that's when we'll be on the play...


as i've alredy said if i get two Caverns, i just pitch one to another. chances of drawing more than two are low enough to forget about them. if in one game of fifty i suddenly get 4 Caverns in my start hand, i just can mulligan, if that's what u're talking about.

I'm talking about them being horrible top decks. The fact that you might have to mulligan two or three land hands just because two (or even one) of them are Cavern's isn't appealing either.


Dark_Cynic87: So how well can this work around Blood Moon effects? Just curious because it seems like a total loss if one resolves...

I still like the idea of using the new Borderposts, that is not tested yet but will be when I get a chance.

[hwtcharger07]

oh man i for got all about wariders cmc 2 i going to build a defense of the heart deck and decided just chunk it in with this deck bu then i forgot to take out wariders.

new list:
Lands:
4x gemstone mine
4x forbidden orchard
4x city of brass
8x invasion sac lands

Creatures:
4x simian spirit guide
4x elvish spirit guide
4x inkwell leviathan
4x magister sphinx
4x progenitus
1x kiki jiki, mirror breaker
1x sky hussar

Spells:
4x Defense of the heart
2x hypergenesis
4x ardent plea
4x demonic dread
4x violent outburst

hopefully that looks better an undelt with DotH = good game when you search for kiki jiki and sky hussar.

I am trying to decide if Fow warrants nclussion in either MD or SB a page back someone mentioned the possibility of borderposts and while i think this isn't a good idea it prevents bloodmoon effects from hampering us going off, also it can be pitched to force of will, however they make you include basic lands which i am not sure this deck can do.

[emidln]

Vendilion Clique is absurdly good in this deck. It's castable before you go off as an EOT Duress, it pitches to Force/MisD, and it drops off hyper sometimes so you can nab that Humility/Wrath/Edict/Natural Order/card you care about.

[ykpon]

sunshine,
yes, speaking about fast combo i was driving at our deck. the idea was to play second every game and usually to start with Caverns turn 0 (with help of Serum Powder). and it isn't difficult because if we win a roll, we can say "i draw" and if we lose it, our opponent will nearly always say "i play" because he's afraid of our speed and so wants to race us. so our deck becomes one turn faster and we dont care about winning a die roll anymore. obviously, u are right saying that such strategy sucks agains counterbalance decks. it can be bad against trinisphere or hymn too sometimes. but why Thoughtseize/Duress in that list? they will have time to cast it in both situations: if we play and if we draw. i don't see how Duress can be tied with Caverns :rolleyes:
that's what i think: expecting a lot of counterbalances and other turn 2 threats like memage and 3sphere, u shouldn't play Caverns. expecting a few of such cards (like in my meta, where top-balance isn't that popular), u can run it. and expecting tons of discard just choose another deck, i suppose, 'cause u can't deal with it by adding/removing Caverns and mb even adding/removing anything else.

[Moczoc]

basically, you can choose one of the two categories of Fatties:

The first is one are the bigger, they are the most evil and fastest (often with haste) creatures in magic and are often able to kill a player within 3 turns alone. Their problem is: Swords to Plowshares, one of the format-defining cards!

for examples:
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Hellkite Overlord
Magister Sphinx
Borgadan Hellkite
Progenitus
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Razia, Boros Archangel
Sundering Titan
...

The second is the protected category, they're a bit weaker, but everyone is immune to StP! Their problem is: They can be too slow at killing the opponent!

for examples:
Simic Sky Swallower
Empyrial Archangel
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Inkwell Leviathan
Progenitus
Plated Slagwurm
...

I don't know which way is the better one, a mix would be stupid because then you'll be confronted with both problems. (Progenitus is an exeption, he fits in both categories)

[mujadaddy]

Is the manabase right for this deck? Why not a mess of fetchlands (~12) in the right colors and a handful (~10) of basics instead of the rainbow lands? Backed up with spirit guides, this seems at least as fast as rainbow lands.

Also, is there room for defense (vs. Counterbalance) along the lines of Bitter Ordeal (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/80.html), Cranial Extraction (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/105.html), Loaming Shaman (http://magiccards.info/di/en/87.html), Mimeofacture (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/30.html), or Reminisce (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/99.html)...? You'd probably want to stick to the blue ones in a FoW build...

[zabuza]

What about playing "Braids, Conjurer Adept".
This girl doesn´t hurts with cascade and in our upkeep we can play the big fatties we had. Although only one per turn, i think is enough to win the game (progenitus, inkwell, ...., they are all scariest). What do you think about it?

Ahh, Using Vendilion Clique looks to me like another very good option too.

[Maveric78f]

Can't you see that you are giving a free show and tell to the opponent before Braids gets crushed ?

[zabuza]

Yeah, it´s the bad thing about braids, but this deck has better chances to put in play a BIG threat that any other in the whole format. The only problem is that opponent can play his free spell and after that kill braids, so you gain nothing, but if this doesn´t happens you are going to win the game. It´s lot of risky, but in this deck if you can´t cascade you are out anyway.

[Master Shake]

Yeah, it´s the bad thing about braids, but this deck has better chances to put in play a BIG threat that any other in the whole format. The only problem is that opponent can play his free spell and after that kill braids, so you gain nothing, but if this doesn´t happens you are going to win the game. It´s lot of risky, but in this deck if you can´t cascade you are out anyway.

So, why just use Show and Tell? It costs less, and gives you a creature now rather than never.

Vendillion Clique seems like the best option other than FoW/Misdirection but not in addition to, but the cards really can't do the same thing... maybe they can. I haven't tested the deck since my report. Someone else should eventually.

[emidln]

I've been loving 4 Force of Will, 4 Misdirection, 4 Vendilion Clique as my protection package. I don't play as many creatures as most of you seem to (I'm at 13-14 right now) and all of my creatures are "slow" (slow like a 7/11 who is usually not blockable and otherwise has trample is slow). I've also moved to a more aggressive manabase of:

4 Forbidden Orchard
3 City of Brass
4 Ancient Spring
4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

[Maveric78f]

Some time ago, I asked why on earth you were playing cascade into hypergenesis instead of Eureka. The only answer I got was that it enabled to play the equivalent to 12 Eureka. In that case, why don't you play Eureka in you builds, with 8 cascade spells? Show and tell is probably better then, better pitchable to FoW/Misid and 1 mana less. Then why don't you play 4 Show and Tell, 4 Eureka and brainstorms/ponders to find them ? I just propose to replace 12*cascade and 2*hypergenesis with 4*Eureka, 4*Show and Tell +6*cantrips. Then you only need 2 colours (U and G). You can play a real mana base and end up with something like this :
15 lands:
8 fetches
4 trop islands
1 forest
2 islands

Mana boost: 7
2 SSG
4 ESG

Creatures: 15
11 big threats (at some point I was also considering playing confiscate or Dream Leash)
4 Vendillion

Combo 8
4 eureka
4 show and tell

Cantripping: 8
4 BS
4 Ponder

Protection: 8
4 FoW
4 Misdi

I mean that cascade is cool. But what is it for ??? See the good points of such a build : resilience to stifle, chalice and counterbalance, solid manabase, cantripping allowed, ...

[mujadaddy]

FYI, re: Eureka: Any abilities that trigger due to these cards coming into play do not actually resolve until after the entire Eureka effect is done resolving. [WotC Rules Team 1998/02/01] ...So you can't steal anything with Vend-Clique until after all Eureka-choices are put into play. Now, continuous effects *do* start working, so I can see this going down:

You: Eureka, Progenitus
Them: Humility
You: Vend-Clique
Them: Moat
You: :cry:

I think the point of playing the Cascade is that it's a cheap tactic that allows you to play the Natural-Order style deck with less mana.

I do agree that you'd probably want to choose 2 of the 3 cascade spells for manabase stability. However, your list is firstly a different concept than the one in this thread (it lacks cascade AND hypergenesis :laugh: ) and secondly it's going to have to wait longer to dump its hand -- 4 mana for Eureka for multiple drops, 3 mana for Show & Tell for a single drop. I also think that 7 land + 8 fetches is going to screw you over eventually.

One thing you're forgetting, though, is that Violent Outburst is an instant, giving you a fair chance to drop your hand on your opponent's turn, then untapping for the kill.

[Maveric78f]

So you can't steal anything with Vend-Clique until after all Eureka-choices are put into play.
I don't get your point. What do you think I'd want to steal with Vend Clique ??? I did not get the Humility point neither, since it concerns both Hypergenesis and Eureka.

If I sum up, you open yourself to chalice, counterbalance, meddling mage, stifle, trickbind, mana denial, just to gain 1 turn ? It looks like a very bad idea. I'm really wondering which position has emidln regarding this, because he's the one that has traded the most speed for resilience with his FT deck.

[mujadaddy]

I don't get your point. What do you think I'd want to steal with Vend Clique ??? I did not get the Humility point neither, since it concerns both Hypergenesis and Eureka.You would WANT to deny them the Humility or Wrath/Damnation (or whatever), but with Eureka you cannot, as CitP abilities don't trigger until after the Eureka finishes, leaving nothing in hand worthwhile to "steal away."

If I sum up, you open yourself to chalice, counterbalance, meddling mage, stifle, trickbind, mana denial, just to gain 1 turn ? It looks like a very bad idea.Mana denial - I completely agree that the rainbow land plan is extremely easy to hate upon. I built a version last night along the lines of my suggestion above (~12 fetchlands, ~8 basics, ~2 Duals (savannah & volcanic island, fyi)) and it worked rather well, from a manabase perspective. The only issue was that's 22 lands, so although it was stable & easy to hit my mana, I felt like I didn't have enough "juice" in the hand to drop, once I hit Hypergenesis.

Mage, stifle--Yes. This is certainly an argument for adding alternatives to the deck, but not necessarily one for NOT playing Hypergenesis. With FoWs, Adding Show & Tell is a pretty easy choice. Maybe not 4 though.

Chalice & Counterbalance-- Yes. This is why I'm leaning to 4 FoWs and 4 Krosan Grips as the defense package, with the Misdirections in the SB.

I also agree that Ponder & Brainstorm should have a place in there. Really, the thing that I think I might cut? The Spirit Guides. With a 22-land, mostly basics manabase, I've found myself flooded with them, and when I have an Ardent Plea in hand, they're complete chaff. I suppose they're pretty good for the Violent Outbursts, though, so maybe 2+2...?

[Maveric78f]

You would WANT to deny them the Humility or Wrath/Damnation (or whatever), but with Eureka you cannot, as CitP abilities don't trigger until after the Eureka finishes, leaving nothing in hand worthwhile to "steal away."
So you were pleaing against Vendilion Clique? Not against Eureka. It was really not clear...
Well, Vendilion Clique is supposed to be played, not put into play with Eureka or whatever. Actually, it's here to have an idea (an idea because you never know the card your opponent draws) if you can combo on your next turn. I don't know if it's relevant with the BS/ponder list though, since you don't need to get back your hypergenesis into the deck, and cantrips would do that better.

BTW, 15 lands + 6 guides is not that much risky (at least on the paper, because I don't test hypergenesis/eureka builds).

[mujadaddy]

So you were pleaing against Vendilion Clique? Not against Eureka. It was really not clear...Well, really I was just demonstrating that you *have* to cast Clique in order to get the protection from it, in the Eureka build.


I don't know if it's relevant with the BS/ponder list though, since you don't need to get back your hypergenesis into the deck, and cantrips would do that better.

BTW, 15 lands + 6 guides is not that much risky (at least on the paper, because I don't test hypergenesis/eureka builds).It still scares me :laugh: but I think I'll give a try cutting a few lands out...first, I'll go to 18 from 22, then see how that treats me. Cutting 4 lands for 4 of (BS+Ponder) should make it liveable.

[Maveric78f]

Well, really I was just demonstrating that you *have* to cast Clique in order to get the protection from it, in the Eureka build.
Once again, I don't understand why you insist that casting Clique is necessary only in the Eureka build.

[mujadaddy]

Once again, I don't understand why you insist that casting Clique is necessary only in the Eureka build.Until power-level errata is printed, the triggered abilities of the cards put into play with Hypergenesis occur as the card is put into play. Eureka specifically states ([WotC Rules Team 1998/02/01]) that the triggered abilities don't occur until after the Eureka has finished resolving. If ever Hypergenesis is modified to work exactly like Eureka, then there won't be a difference.

[Jaynel]

Until power-level errata is printed, the triggered abilities of the cards put into play with Hypergenesis occur as the card is put into play. Eureka specifically states ([WotC Rules Team 1998/02/01]) that the triggered abilities don't occur until after the Eureka has finished resolving. If ever Hypergenesis is modified to work exactly like Eureka, then there won't be a difference.

False.


10/15/2006 Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put into play and resolution is complete.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Seems like Angel of Dispair (or something like it) would be better to do away with humility and other problematic permanents, or would Humility shut down Angel of Dispair's ability before it destroyed the Humility?

I hate Humility. It has such a requirement of understanding layers to play and play against that I wish it would just fall out of favor.

It's why I don't generally play creatures...

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

VClique isn't as useful against Landstill off Hypergenesis (although I'd personally play it first), but it is good against a ton of other decks, notable black-based aggro and U/x aggro-control which are liable to be packing stuff like Diabolic Edict, Curfew, Wrath of God, Damnation/Wrath of God (moreso wrath), and other non-permanent hate that's splash hate from guys like Progenitus being a legit threat (and that type of hate is likely to continue if this deck sees heavy play).

I don't see a build with 4 Clique, 8 pitch magic, 13-14 big guys (Inkwell, Prog, SSS, E. Archeangel), 7-8 spirit guides, 11-12 cascade, and 15-16 lands being much more vulnerable to hate than a build with just 4 Force, 0 clique and a bunch of hasty guys. The hasty guys leave you open to far more stuff, and you only really care before you play a hypergenesis. The way I'd build this deck would guarantee that if I resolve hypergenesis I put something that's not raceable and not easily removed into play so my opp HAS to have Humility/EBridge/etc or they lose).

[mujadaddy]

False.
Well, then, there's that -- they *do* play the same, so Clique is only good as protection when hard-cast beforehand.

Cynic: Humility is a continuous effect, not one triggered by coming into play, so yes, Humility shuts down Angel of Despair and every other creature-based CitP-trigger. Technically, its effect starts as a state-based effect as soon as Hypergenesis/Eureka/Show&Tell finish resolving, before any CitP triggers happen. I'm pretty sure. :laugh:

[Dark_Cynic87]

Right, but does it take effect before Hypergenesis resolves? Gamestate isn't checked until after it's resolved is it? If it isn't, then they can play Humility, you can play Angel of Dispair, and it's effect triggers (this is all hazy, I played H-Genesis back when it first came out in casual), but doesn't resolve until after H-Genesis Resolves, so wouldn't that still work?

I'm not extremely educated on rules topics, I'm just trying to see what works. Hopefully someone who knows the in-depth explanations to how this stuff works can give some clarity...

I know I'm probably wrong, I just need to see it in the rules that I'm wrong before I can believe it.

Pce,

--DC

[mujadaddy]

My understanding, and I'm prepared to be wrong, is that Humility changes the game-state (a continuous effect that is state-based) so that the CitP triggers never trigger. It would be like putting the Angel into play with the Humility already out.

To explain it rules-wise a bit better, as soon as anyone receives priority(upon resolution of the Hypergenesis), SBE's are checked. This is done "split-second style" -- no one can do anything about SBE's; they just happen. Continuous effects, such as Humility, are applied. THEN the game "notices" all these things have entered play. Under Humility, they're just 1/1's with no abilities, so nothing triggers when they enter play. Something like Aether Flash would notice, though, and trigger "as" they entered play.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Well that's stupid. That means even Venser wouldn't be able to do anything, right?

I hate Humility.

Pce,

--DC

[mujadaddy]

I hate Humility.There is no creature-based solution to Humility.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Fine. What about Deed? Doesn't screw up Cascade, it's a solution to lots of stuff, you can drop it with H-Genesis. It's a solution to quick aggro, it's just off the mana base. I guess there's O-Ring (on-color at least, tutorable via E. Tutor, as is Plea which could work out well) also, but I'm not sure that works well against as much stuff...

I worry about Humility because I know many landstill lists use it anyway, without this deck being popular, and if it gets popular then Humility will just get more popular and we'll have a bit of trouble on our hands.

Pce,

--DC

[mujadaddy]

Fine. What about Deed? Doesn't screw up Cascade, it's a solution to lots of stuff, you can drop it with H-Genesis. It's a solution to quick aggro, it's just off the mana base. I guess there's O-Ring (on-color at least, tutorable via E. Tutor, as is Plea which could work out well) also, but I'm not sure that works well against as much stuff...

I worry about Humility because I know many landstill lists use it anyway, without this deck being popular, and if it gets popular then Humility will just get more popular and we'll have a bit of trouble on our hands.

Pce,

--DCIf you're dropping Deed with Hypergenesis, there IS no "off color" :laugh: ... You'd be a fool not to pack the best green-black spell there is in your sideboard, especially if you had a good chance of not having to pay for it.

[Dark_Cynic87]

If you're dropping Deed with Hypergenesis, there IS no "off color" :laugh: ... You'd be a fool not to pack the best green-black spell there is in your sideboard, especially if you had a good chance of not having to pay for it.

Right, I know that, all I'm saying is that there may be a problem on the board and you can't find H-Genesis and need to cast it.

Pce,

--DC

[kicks_422]

Just play Form of the Dragon if you're worried about Humility.

[Maveric78f]

Or Oblivion Ring...

[Dark_Cynic87]

I guess there's O-Ring also, but I'm not sure that works well against as much stuff...


Dually noted.

Form is a decent idea I guess. Just a bit risky though. Although any deck that runs Humility and drops it via h-genesis and then you drop Form definitely screws the creature win for them, and you won't need it. That's kinda savage tech.

Pce,

--DC

[Maveric78f]

Did you discuss this :
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
?

It's a good answer to humility, and other stuff imho. Ok I got it. Hypergenesis does not say permanent, neither Show and Tell by the way. Only Eureka enables it.

Others answers to humility and moat and circle of protection: U.
Aura Fracture, Aura of Silence, Aura Shards, Seal of Primordium (for the Eureka build).

Aura shards looks good. Form of the dragon as a SB card is also not that bad against control decks. The pb is that it does not have shroud and that it spends 4 turns to kill.

[Moczoc]

Yeah, that is a great find! And the first argument, that makes me consider Eureka because an early Nicol Bolas is such a bomb. With a Spirit Guide you can start on turn 3 to destroy everything your opponent gets on the board.

But if you include him, it will be problematik if you only draw Show and Tell or Hypergenesis :/

[Dark_Cynic87]

Seal of Primordium is bad because it can screw up your Ardent Plea. I like Aura of Silence, but I think the best candidates for the Humility removal are:

O-Ring
Deed
Form
Aura of Silence

In that order.

I think O-Rings should be maindecked. If you want to use deed you can, but I feel that it's too risky because of the amount of mana you have to pump into it to kill stuff like Moat/Humility.

Aura is just a better O-Ring, but less useful in a lot of matchups. I suppose if you wanted to SB it, it would/could absolutely wreck Stax/Stompy matchups.

Pce,

--DC

[sunshine]

Maybe Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse over O-Ring? We're using a rainbow base and those two play nicer with Pillar of the Paruns if you happen to be running it.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Maybe, but not useable via Hypergenesis. That's what makes O-ring better here I think.

Pce,

--DC

[Darkenslight]

Maybe, but not useable via Hypergenesis. That's what makes O-ring better here I think.

Pce,

--DC

I like this one, mainly because of APNAP; you see, Humility negates all cresture-based hate put out, and then is RFG'd. That right there makes O-ring some kinds of awesome.

[enemyofarsenic]

What are the current lists for this deck?

[Dark_Cynic87]

The lists are a page, maybe two back. There's one by Emidln and one or two other people.

Pce,

--DC

[Master Shake]

For those of you too lazy to look into the past to see lists, here is the breakdown of the lists thus far:

My personal list:


4 Angel of Despair
2 Empyrial Archangel
4 Simic Sky Swallower
3 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Progenitus
1 Sundering Titan

1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will

3 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Show and Tell
3 Hypergenesis
4 Violent Outburst
4 Ardent Plea

Sideboard

4 Krosan Grip
2 Sudden Death
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Thunder Dragon
3 Bogardan Hellkite
3 City of Solitude

This list wants to drop one or two creatures that should be able to win the game on their own over the course of a couple of turns while being immune to any targeted removal Also, you can just put 20 damage on the table and win next turn. This is the list that people have been working with the most.



4 Adrent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
4 Demonic Dread

3 Hypergenisis

4 Helkite Overlord
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Spirit of the Night
3 Magister Sphinx
1 Razia, Boros Archangel
2 Karona, False God
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

4 Unmask

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Tinder Farm
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice-Bridge

This list aims to drop creatures that are going to beat the turn they come down. Variations on this list use Wound Reflection and maindecked Bogardan Hellkite.

The major discussions with the deck up to this point have been:

1. Stratergy to win - We're all going all-in, the question is which way is better to go all-in with. There really hasn't been a list proposed for it yet, but some people are talking of using a 2-card cmobo like Pestermite and Kiki-Jiki.

2. Answers to cards the deck doesn't want to see - There are a lot of cards that can cause problems for any build of the deck, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, Orim's Chant (acts like a Hinder) Etersworn Cannonist, Rule or Law, and most of all, hard counters. Proposed answers to these are generally Ingot Chewer and Krosan Grip for applicable problems. Oblivion Ring, Vindicate and Malestrom pulse for anything that sticks on the table, Shriekmaw and Sudden Death for creatures. Many people find space for Force of Will and Misdirection in their deck, the roles of these cards are obvious. Vendillion Clique and Unmask have been discussed as the deck's disruption suite although I cannot speak for either card. Dosan and City of Solitude were suggested as a means to battle counters, it hasn't been discussed much recently, but I'm certain that as time goes on the cards will be looked at more.

3. Mana Base - Pillar of the Paruns sucks, that's an opinion. Its great if you want to play the cascade cards, but it sucks if you want to play any of your answers to problems. Most people seem to be content with 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 City of Brass, and the rest of the mana base is up in the air. I personally like Forbidden orchard as its downside isn't very important, others favor invasion Comes-into-play-tapped lands. When building your mana base, try to keep in mind that 1. Tendo Ice Bridge is the worst land ever. 2. You will come to times when you want to suspend Hypergenesis.

4. Non-Hypergenesis means of getting cards onto the table. Show and Tell, Eureka and Defense of the Heart seem to be the suggestions up to this point. Show and Tell is the quickest to play, but gives you the smallest bonus. Eureka will let you play Planeswalkers, but if you're using planeswalkers, you have a very sub-par list because most of the time you won't be playing Eureka.

If you're curious what the decks match-ups are - as far as I know I'm the only one who has reported any testing with it, the deck flat-out wins against decks that do not use Force of Will. I'm untested against Dragonstompy and Stax lists, but you should be able to imagine that if they don't drop a Sphere or Chalice at 0 (highly unlikely if they don't know what you're playing) then you're in good shape and should be able to explode. Decks with heavy discard vary from game to game. Hypnotic Specter is very difficult to win against, but a few Hymns and thoughtseize are winnable if you're running a high desnity of cards that cascade or drop something into play.

Now you've been briefed in where the discussion is up to this point. On a parting note, to make yourself not look like you don't know what's going on, do yourself a favor and refrain ever suggest a card that costs between 0-2 unless you've really thought about how this deck operates and believe this can add to the deck's ability to win.

[rufus]

4. Non-Hypergenesis means of getting cards onto the table. Show and Tell, Eureka and Defense of the Heart seem to be the suggestions up to this point. Show and Tell is the quickest to play, but gives you the smallest bonus. Eureka will let you play Planeswalkers, but if you're using planeswalkers, you have a very sub-par list because most of the time you won't be playing Eureka.

There's also Natural Order / Pattern of Rebirth, Sneak Attack, Through The Breach, and Corpse Dance.

Necrologia could be interesting in a deck like this. (Necrologia -> ESG/SSG -> Violent Outburst -> Hypergenesis)

[Fossil4182]

So I played this deck a few weeks ago. I'm not sure of the list, but it ran the traditional creature package that's been discussed here: biggest, baddest creatures that get to be played for free and then wreak havoc. The largest problem I found with the deck was waiting a turn to kill can sometimes mean you're just going to loose. Between sitting across some idiot who's playing MBC with 8 edict effects to combo decks that can just win out while you're waiting to attack. Anyway, while rummaging through some older cards I had an epiphany about a potential creature package to run with this deck. This is just a possible suggestion:

Magister Sphinx x1
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Summoner's Pact x4

The justifications for all of these creatures are simple. The lowest power for any of them is 6, they all trample and haste making them a must deal with threat. Additionally, cascading with Demonic Dread and Violent Outburst suddenly become very relevant to the creature's you're dropping. Ball Lightning and Groundbreaker both become lethal in sets of three if you're using Violent Outburst adding to the threat level. Additionally, Demonic Dread even becomes a relevant card because most decks won't have but a single blocker, maybe two, by the time you resolve Hypergenesis. Stopping one of their creatures from blocking means that you'll be able to combo off for the win a heck of a lot easier. In a world where Goyf, Coatl... and other big creatures can grow fairly quickly, stopping them from blocking can be clutch.

Two other additional things.
*Summoner's Pact is there for two reasons. The primary reason is to tutor up Magister Sphinx when you're going off. Setting their life total at 10 when you're about to unleash an army of Ball Lightning seems really unfair and a great way to win. On a secondary level, if you have the Sphinx in hand, you can tutor up an additional ball lightning effect.

*Creature selection: in addition to the aforementioned warrants for these cards (Trample, Haste, Powerful) they have the ability to be relevant when drawn. What I mean is that if you don't Hypergenesis or you don't kill them when you do, being able to play a ball lightning effect seems like a really good idea. I mean the casting cost break down for the creatures is:

-8 at 3cc
-4 at 4cc
-4 at 5cc

Compared to other deck lists out there, it seems to be a little bit better of an idea to be able to cast the creatures you draw as opposed to top decking a Progenitus and simply waiting to draw into a cascade effect. Furthermore, the deck's mana base suddenly becomes R/G/b instead of r/g/b/u/w meaning you're mana base doesn't have to be subject to 12 city of brass type effects. This allows the development an actual mana base as well as the use of fetch lands to thin the deck out.

There are some drawbacks to this strategy. Their creature removal becomes relevant because none of these have any sort of protective ability. So the will get to use their StP and Snuff Out which can be problematic. Additionally, none of these creatures fly meaning they're going to crash into something, but with 6 being the lowest power its going to hit and kill nearly every traditionally played creature. Instant speed board sweepers are very problematic (Volcanic Fallout). Furthermore, a lot of the other creature packages are heavy Blue which allow for the use of FoW and Misdirection as protection for the combo. This list would lack that. The use of Unmask and Snuff Out could be added which would mitigate the loss somewhat, but the down in power from that perspective is undeniable. However, ask Master Shake already noted, if HyperCascade is going to loose to decks with FoW anyway, at least this version is going to be able to play threats outside of cascading which could offset the lack of FoW by giving the deck an alternative way to win. Additionally being able to play huge threats repeatedly means the pressure is constantly come them instead of boom and bust cycle of building to a critical mass and either winning or loosing after cascading.

[Soldar]

*Summoner's Pact is there for two reasons. The primary reason is to tutor up Magister Sphinx when you're going off. Setting their life total at 10 when you're about to unleash an army of Ball Lightning seems really unfair and a great way to win. On a secondary level, if you have the Sphinx in hand, you can tutor up an additional ball lightning effect.


Two issues with this:

You can fizzle on a Summoner's Pact, and Summoner's Pact can only get green creatures.

The idea isn't terrible, but are Ball Lightnings stronger than Hellkites? The Blitz Hellions and Blistering Firecats I can understand a little bit more, but some Dragons which can blow up 1-2 creatures of your opponent's board seems much stronger than just trading with a Goyf.

[rufus]

Ball lightnings are definitely weaker than Hellkite Overlord, Karrhus, Tyant of Jund, both of which can be fetched with Summoner's Pact.

[Fossil4182]

The idea isn't terrible, but are Ball Lightnings stronger than Hellkites? The Blitz Hellions and Blistering Firecats I can understand a little bit more, but some Dragons which can blow up 1-2 creatures of your opponent's board seems much stronger than just trading with a Goyf.

True points. However, if they counter the cascade spell or stop hypergenesis, the hand is filled with a bunch of high casting cost cards that are virtually dead. Plus, while Ball Lightning may seem weak compared to the dragons, it does allow you to play through the Moon effects which can be helpful. The point was to give the deck a route to victory outside of resolving its cascade spells. The ability to play threats that you top deck without the help of enabler spells like Show and Tell etc makes the deck better able to have a back up route to victory.

Summoners Pact could be Worldly Tutor which isn't as good, but could be used to get the Sphinx.

[LennonMarx]

Both Summoner's Pact and Worldly Tutor are a nonbo with the Cascade Spells. The Ball Lightning package looks cool though. What is your mana base like for that build?

[Fossil4182]

@ LennonMarx
Ya, just realized that about the tutors. With the inability to use tutors in mind, I would cut the Sphinx in favor of something like Thunderblust. Anyway, a rough deck list might look something like this:

Creatures: (18)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2

Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2

Protection Spells/Awesome Spells/Whatever (12)
Unmask x4
Dark Triumph x4
Snuff Out x4

Mana Base (20)
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x2
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x2

If you're lucky enough to be dropping a Simian Spirit Guide via Hypergenesis and then sac it to Dark Triumph off of a Violent Outburst, then all of your creatures are swinging at +3 damage which is pretty good.

[Cire]

what i don't get with the haste creature base or the combo bases...is what if the opponent doesn't put anything into play with the hypergenesis...

If you play it and lay down a ball lightning or one-piece to a two card combo, the opponent will simply not put anything down denying you a chance to win...

[DrJones]

what i don't get with the haste creature base or the combo bases...is what if the opponent doesn't put anything into play with the hypergenesis...

If you play it and lay down a ball lightning or one-piece to a two card combo, the opponent will simply not put anything down denying you a chance to win...Because what you say is what Eureka and Hypergenesis seem to do, but not what they actually do.

Relevant Ruling:
Each player gets a chance to put a card in play starting with you and going around the table to the left (unless your multiplayer variant defines a different ordering). A player may decline to put a card into play when it is their turn. The spell ends when all players decline in a row. [D'Angelo 2002/01/10]

[Soldar]

so then why not have a combo base like this?

4 Doubling Season
+
4 Nicolas Bolas
4 Chandra

&

4 Kiki Jiki
+
4 Sky Hussar
4 Pestermite

you are pretty much guaranteed to have any combination of the following in your hand;

Doubling Season/ Planeswalker / Untaping creature
Kiki Jiki/ Planeswalker / Untaping creature

and either one of those leads to basically instant win the turn you play your cascade spell. With testing you can reduce some of the cards, but this base takes almost as much room as the haste one, and slightly more than the 20+ giant beats one.

heres a sample list i came up with


4 Kiki Jiki
4 Sky Hussar
4 Pestermite
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit guide

4 Doubling Season
4 Nicolas Bolas
4 Chandra
4 Violent Outburst
4 Demonic Dread
4 Force of Will
2 Hypergenesis
1 Misdirection

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tendo Ice Bridge?

the deck goes off turn 2 thanks to the instant win combos of Season + planes walker and kiki + untaping creatures and has 5 protection spells... with testing and tweaking im sure you can remove redundant combo pieces (7 instead of 8 perhaps?) and put in more protection... but as it is now its a turn 2 goldfish deck with 5 protection spells....

You're going to want to make sure this does what you want it to - Hypergenesis can't put Planeswalkers into play.

[Cire]

Epic Fail on my part, disregard that post, i apologize for cluttering the thread. I failed to read the card on two counts.

[enemyofarsenic]

Possible additions/backup to the deck:

Tombstalker - seems to be hardcastable w/ delve ability and rainbow lands
Necromancy - 3cc reanimator if ever fatties got discarded / edict'd / wrath'd
although it may not work w/ Progenitus
Oblivion Ring - pretty much discussed to take out humility and other annoying stuff

Thoughts?

[zabuza]

I was loking at mtgsalvation forums and saw the following list posted by Fossil4182 (thanks fossil):

Creatures: (18)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2 (or Hellkite Overlord)

Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2

Protection Spells/Awesome Spells/Whatever (12)
Unmask x4
Dark Triumph x4
Snuff Out x4

Mana Base (20)
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x2
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x2

Thew explanation of the choices he has chosen is in:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=158824&page=4

Now i´m asking you, could this deck be viable??

I think the deck is better because all creatures can be played without cascade-genesis, they are very big and can finish the game very fast.

I think we can replace the dark triump with Bloodbraid Elf so if we play it with genesis we will cascade for another ball lightning or ground breaker or another cascade spell in order to more combo.

What do you think about this version?

[Master Shake]

I was loking at mtgsalvation forums and saw the following list posted by Fossil4182 (thanks fossil):

Creatures: (18)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2 (or Hellkite Overlord)

Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2

Protection Spells/Awesome Spells/Whatever (12)
Unmask x4
Dark Triumph x4
Snuff Out x4

Mana Base (20)
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x2
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x2

Thew explanation of the choices he has chosen is in:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=158824&page=4

Now i´m asking you, could this deck be viable??

I think the deck is better because all creatures can be played without cascade-genesis, they are very big and can finish the game very fast.

I think we can replace the dark triump with Bloodbraid Elf so if we play it with genesis we will cascade for another ball lightning or ground breaker or another cascade spell in order to more combo.

What do you think about this version?

Seriously? That list is on the previous page, posted by the same user with the same username.

And while no one has addressed it just yet. this deck's weaknesses are many, the fact that the creatures probably won't get the job done unimpeded is at the top of the concern list, then there is the fact that it doesn't use the two best cascade spells. Then there is the amount of chaff cards, it doesn't use Forbidden Orchard to ensure that Demonic Dread has a target, and sometimes Goyf will just be good enough to stop lethal from coming though, you'll never have a second chance at winning because you will need to refill your hand. There are 15 cards that can work to turn Unmask on (assuming you want to play one) 4 of (Dark Triumph) them are only good for that purpose and 4 of them are combo pieces.

While this list does propose the most stable mana base, because it is in three colors, it also presents the worst chances of actually winning. You cannot drop 2 creatures into play with this build and expect to win, you nearly always will need to play 4. Burn can beat this deck because you can play Lightning Bolt or drop a Mogg Fanatic off Hypergenesis as a way to prevent 6+ damage and kill a creature.

Like this build, both of the previous builds use creatures with huge bodies and a drawback. The previous decks had the drawback of the fact that the creatures are unplayable without Hypergenesis or some other enabler. In this instance, the drawback is that they do not have a good half-life and are easily killed. I don't understand why you would want to Hypergenesis these guys into play rather than just play them. The result will likely be the same - you won't be able to win, but at least you're not utilizing a combo that takes away from the strength of the deck.

So, in short - I do not think much of the build.

[zabuza]

Well, i´m going to answer all the things you said in the above post, but first a new list with some improvements (i think so) i´ve maid to the fossil´s list.

Creatures: (30)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2
Shriekmaw x 4
BloodBraid elf x 4
Greater gargadon x 4

Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2

Mana Base (20)
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x4

The good things:
- You can win games without hypergenesis, you are not hyper-dependent like other versions so you can play one 6-7 damage monster after another till you win the game (is not difficult).

-More stable manabase (you have 8 fetch) to thin the deck and to look for the land you want in the right moment.

-All creatures can be sac to gargadon in order to deal a brutal amount of damage and making the monster appearance sooner and sooner. The idea of the deck is turn 1 play gargadon, turn 2 (shriekmaw if needed and sacced), turn 3 ball and sac, and then you could play gargadon in nesto or so turn if needed.

Beside of that, with this version you have plenty of creatures to play with if you combo out and remember you have shriekmaw to kill any stuff opponent plays with genesis and have a 3 power with fear body to deal the last dameges.

Another card is very useful is bloodbraid elf who can cascade and combo out.With the elf some interesting things can happen:

You play the elf and reveal one of the 8 balls. Wonderfull, you are beating from 9 in a turn with only one card of your hand and with a 3/2 critter reamining in table to still attack next turns.

You are comboing and play the elf with genesis on table and a balla apears (better than first scenario, one more 6 haste trample beater to care about)

You are not comboing and play the elf and one of the cascade spells appears. Wonderful, you are now comboing out.

You are comboing and play the elf with genesis. A cascade spell appears ( if violent outburst you are giving all your beaters +2/+0 (if first card combo was another violent), if demonic dread you are tapping another opponent creature (which can have been played with genesis), and any mix of the cascade spells.

A hypergenesis appears. If you are not comboing then you are now. If you were, sorry but is the only dead scenario, but it´s lot improbable because you only have 2 hypergenesis)


There is lot of sinergy with the whole deck and sideboarding provides you lot of interesting options.

Because lot of your creatures are elementals you can use patriarch´s bidding, living death, living end (to abuse cascade) or something like that.
You can also play restore balance to combo with gargaddon (and probably nihilith) and win the game and can play evoke creatures(chewer, wispmare) to destroy artifacts or enchntments that can be sacced to gargaddon.

Another interesting sideboard card is Dosan the falling leave how protect us from counters.

I think the deck is stable (one thing it wasn´t before) and can combo in third turn consistently or win with monster beatings.

Deck is not perfect, lot of improvement can still be made, (like adding gemstone cavern to make the deck comboing in turn 2 or so) and things like that, but i think is the way to go because in other versions if you can´t play genesis you are absolutely dead (and are mana risky a lot).

[Forbiddian]

Why would anybody run Ball Lightning over Hellkite Overlord? Are you really going to win casting Ball Lightnings? That's like a turn 7 Goldfish if your opponent does nothing.

At least Hellkite Overlord lets you have a fallback plan (and works for Unmask), not to mention doing more damage, flying, and not dying to Mogg Fanatic, bolt, etc.

[zabuza]

Why would anybody run Ball Lightning over Hellkite Overlord? Are you really going to win casting Ball Lightnings? That's like a turn 7 Goldfish if your opponent does nothing.

At least Hellkite Overlord lets you have a fallback plan (and works for Unmask), not to mention doing more damage, flying, and not dying to Mogg Fanatic, bolt, etc.

Because hellkite is going to stay in your hand doing NOTHING till game end and ball lightnings will attack alone in turn 3 or 4.

The reason for not playing big dudes is because they are going to sit in your hand and if you can combo out (this situation is easy) you are going to lose without doing anything.

Decks that use fanatic or lkightning bolts are not well prepared to answer our combo so we can win them playng 3/4 balls in a only turn by genesis.

Other decks that you can´t combo, will be the scenario were you can play ball after ball till you win.

I was thinking about another idea to refill your hand in this deck and remember browbeat. This cards can finish the opponent or give you the extra fuel you need to do it. What do you think about?

[ykpon]

2 zabuza
sorry, but ''put'' and ''play'' are different things. you can't ''play'' anything by genesis, you can just ''put'' it into play, so elf from genesis is just a 3/2 haste, nothing more. dunno, i think cutting spirit guides isn't worth getting a 4cc 3/2 haste guy.

also, i think in legacy City of Solitude is better than Dosan.

about balls version in general: why to play it? sure, it can win without combo (though it meets additional problems with cards like fanatic, plague and even deed), but looks like this is the only way it can win at the same time. i mean, your opponent has 19 hp, 1 goyf and 1 stp in his hand, not very rare situation, right? so how much creatures u need to win by genesis? umm, 5-6 ones depending on their power, how often will you have them? at the same time a shroud version can win with only 1-2 creatures. any overlords or combofinish version - with 2-3 ones. also, cutting guides makes a deck slower, cutting fows makes it unprotected. mb just to play some kind of sligh? :rolleyes:
no offence, but i really can't get it. the idea of genesis is the ability to cast the uncastable. to be able to play a couple of 3cc's faster there are a lot more stable things. for example, Seething Song :smile:

[enemyofarsenic]

Use Show and Tell as a backup plan i guess to put fatties in play U2 aint that hard to do compared to GGG or RRR...

[Dark_Cynic87]

Idyllic Tutor seems like a good choice instead of going for a 4c or 5c list. Then you can simply run a UW list (you know what I mean)

I've been thinking about:

4x Force of Will
2x Pyrokinesis
3x Misdirection
4x Fire//Ice (This works, right? CMC is 2 and 2, so 4 is it not? Need a ruling to make sure it won't screw with my Cascade.)
3x Oblivion Ring

4x Idyllic Tutor
4x Ardent Plea
2x Hypergenesis

4x Progenitus
3x Inkwell Leviathan
3x Simic Sky Swallower
3x Bogardan Hellkite
4x Simian Spirit Guide

2x Volcanic
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta

As an alternative you can run black with Unmasks or something, I just liked some of the little synergies here. All of my creatures can be pitched to effects. Hellkites, progenitus and Fires Can be pitched to Pyrokinesis while every other fatty, and Ices can be tossed to Force/MisD, You can use Firespouts in the SB to take down Goblins or Merfolk. O-Rings are for problem cards such as Moat, Humility, 3sphere (Ice helps here also), etc., Fire takes down Magus of the Moon and other problem Bears as well as Lackey etc. We all know the versatility of Fire/Ice, which is why I'm hoping it works with Cascade.

Pce,

--DC

[ykpon]

Dark_Cynic87, such split cards don't work, it was discussed somewhere at the top of page 3.

[Elfrago]

Idyllic Tutor seems like a good choice instead of going for a 4c or 5c list. Then you can simply run a UW list (you know what I mean)


And pay six mana instead of three to start your combo.

[Dark_Cynic87]

6 mana is acceptable. 3WWU isn't terrible, especially with removal and counters maindecked. Rolling over and playing dead to Blood Moon and Trinisphere seems like a worse plan.

I've got accelerators (SSG), it's not that big of a deal.

Pce,

--DC

[AncientSion]

4x Fire//Ice (This works, right? CMC is 2 and 2, so 4 is it not? Need a ruling to make sure it won't screw with my Cascade.)

It will see a card with 2 cmc so it will end the cascade. You can then chose to play any side.
Its funny with boom//bust. Play it on the low side, choose to play the high side for armageddon.

[emidln]

Idyllic Tutor seems to be strictly worse than Intuition (which can also fetch Show and Tell against Chalices postboard).

[ykpon]

i wonder if there is any combo which can work in a such way:
1) play Intuition searching cards X, Y and Z
2) don't care about what they would choose for you
3) cascade into Hypergenesis and instantly win somehow using cards X, Y and Z

if there is something like it, Intuition can become a wonderful addition for this deck. if no, then it seems to be just too slow, not allowing turn 1-2 kills.

[kroelai]

i wonder if there is any combo which can work in a such way:
1) play Intuition searching cards X, Y and Z
2) don't care about what they would choose for you
3) cascade into Hypergenesis and instantly win somehow using cards X, Y and Z

if there is something like it, Intuition can become a wonderful addition for this deck. if no, then it seems to be just too slow, not allowing turn 1-2 kills.

You mean something like 3x Demigod of Revenge?

[ykpon]

You mean something like 3x Demigod of Revenge?
no, something that works with Hypergenesis :smile:

[emidln]

This is a really bad idea. You're trying to turn a massively redundant 2 card combo (you need 1 of 12ish tinkers and 1+ of 12-16ish dudes) into a very specific 2 card card (1 of 12ish tinkers and 1 of 4 Intuition) just to win on the spot. Putting large, evasive, shrouded guys into play is going to win 99% of the games that going infinite will, but it doesn't limit you as to what your other combo card is.

Anyway, to my knowledge, no such piles exist with Intuition (unless your opponent screws up), but one does exist with Gifts Ungiven: Karmic Guide, Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite/Sky Hussar, Necromancy.

The reason for suggesting Intuition is that it's flexible to find creatures, cascade spells, protection, or removal (postboard) and can also find something like Show & Tell post-board as well in the face of Chalices (letting you run essentially 8 Show and Tells).

[Dark_Cynic87]

What about Decree of Silence, Arcane Lab, Progenitus? That's a done deal no matter what. 2 turns to win because Progenitus doesn't get blocked (Chuck Freakin' Norris), 20 damage, only 2 spells can be played by them before they die, the next 3 spells are countered so no Wrath of God, nothing.

I was also thinking about using Bond of Agony, but it was crappy in the maindeck, so I thought some form of alternate win-con, like against lists (Stax) who would opt for stuff like Ghostly Prison/Propaganda or the big killer, Ensnaring Bridge. Then I saw Bond of Agony and if the ruling sticks, I'd say some amount of Bond of Agony and some amount of Illusions of Grandeur in place of creatures, leaving in the Hypergenesis. The idea would be to drop a Cascade spell, hit H-Genesis, drop Illusions of Grandeur and another card with Cascade, let HG resolve, gain 20 life, cascade resolves running through and hitting the Bond of Agony so a Fireblast won't end you. Just chain your Cascade Spells. Random could be bad (not knowing if you are going to hit Bond or HG first), but IDK if it's too big of a deal because fetches are so popular that since we don't use them they will probably have less life than us.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

I've been testing this list to good results:


4 Prog
4 Inkwell
4 Emp Archangel
3 SSS
3 UW Cascade
4 RG Cascade
4 Show & Tell
4 Force of Will
4 MisD
2 Hypergenesis
4 SSG
4 ESG
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Sulfur Vent

SB: 4 Intuition
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Jund Charm
SB: 3 Platinum Angel

You'll note that I only play 7 cascade cards. Hypergenesis is a mixed blessing in that sometimes you have your worst guys (Emp Archangel or SSS) and your opp drops 2x goyf or goyf + some exalted dudes. Other times, you run into a real aggro deck and they drop a fistful of goblins, merfolk, or elves. In my mind, losing games where you resolve your best spell is unacceptable. S&T remedies this problem by only giving them one guy (who is unlikely to match even your worst dude (SSS)). S&T incidentally avoids problems with Chalice @ 0 (Intuition postboard helps you find it more often) and pitches to Force of Will better than Demonic Dread. It's also far easier to cast than Ardent Plea or Demonic Dread.

[enemyofarsenic]

Show and Tell to Progenitus is just unfair =]

[bigbear102]

Not that I like the version the best, but the hasty version should play Kresh, the Bloodbraided. He gets bigger for every ball lightning you play, plus other stuff is bound to die. He's a big threat that sticks around in case the initial punch doesn't get it done. Plus he gets bigger for every dude they lose too.

[Hopo]

I've been testing this list to good results:


4 Prog
4 Inkwell
4 Emp Archangel
3 SSS
3 UW Cascade
4 RG Cascade
4 Show & Tell
4 Force of Will
4 MisD
2 Hypergenesis
4 SSG
4 ESG
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Sulfur Vent



Almost excatly like my list: All the Hypergenesis targets pitch to Force and Misdirection, which are both played as 4-ofs. Misdirection is equal to fow when protecting the combo from counters. This list is really straightforward and I like it that way. I do not run Show and Tell, though but Shriekmaw instead. It is also a great last drop when you resolve Hypergenesis.

[enemyofarsenic]

The m10 ruling update means no more violent outbursing blockers? =[

[Maveric78f]

The m10 ruling update means no more violent outbursing blockers? =[

Why that?

Shriekmaw looks very inferior to Oblivion Ring, even if that last one can't attack, it is awesome to deal with humility, propaganda, or any hindrance.

[enemyofarsenic]

I guess my question is, will this deck be affected by the recent m10 rules changes?

[Dark_Cynic87]

What ruling? Link? Quote? Something...

Pce,

--DC

[enemyofarsenic]

http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

[Maveric78f]

I guess my question is, will this deck be affected by the recent m10 rules changes?

Not directly.

[enemyofarsenic]

Why that?

Shriekmaw looks very inferior to Oblivion Ring, even if that last one can't attack, it is awesome to deal with humility, propaganda, or any hindrance.

Angel of Despair > Shriekmaw

[Maveric78f]

Not at all, because shriekmaw can be played obviously. I proposed O-Ring because you can play it and becasue it's not sensitive to humility.

[zabuza]

What is SSS???? Are you not playing Magister Sphinx?

[Maveric78f]

Simic Sky Swallower

[zabuza]

thanks, i thought that it could be but i wasn´t sure. And Sphynx?? Is because an Sphynx with genitus is only one strike.

[emidln]

Spynx is bad because it can't win the game by itself very well.

[Dark_Cynic87]

O-Ring > Shriekmaw > Angel of Dispair.

O-Ring handles Humility plus everything these two handle.

I'm using Decree of Silence (I'm claiming this lol) in my SB as a 3-of along with 4x Rule of Law//Arcane Lab. Beats Storm combo and as long as you drop any creature power 7 or greater you win before they resolve anything.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

O-Ring > Shriekmaw > Angel of Dispair.

O-Ring handles Humility plus everything these two handle.

I'm using Decree of Silence (I'm claiming this lol) in my SB as a 3-of along with 4x Rule of Law//Arcane Lab. Beats Storm combo and as long as you drop any creature power 7 or greater you win before they resolve anything.

Pce,

--DC

While I can't claim it for myself, I know that the NY guys have been testing Decree of Silence for awhile now.

[Zach Tartell]

O-Ring > Shriekmaw > Angel of Dispair.

O-Ring handles Humility plus everything these two handle.

I'm using Decree of Silence (I'm claiming this lol) in my SB as a 3-of along with 4x Rule of Law//Arcane Lab. Beats Storm combo and as long as you drop any creature power 7 or greater you win before they resolve anything.

Pce,

--DC

You realize that you'd have to combo off and then drop the ROL/AL, 'cause it stops you from comboing too.

[Dark_Cynic87]

While I can't claim it for myself, I know that the NY guys have been testing Decree of Silence for awhile now.

Nice. Me too, I didn't necessarily mean claim it, but I hadn't heard it mentioned here before so I thought I would mention what has been winning me games that could have been losses.



You realize that you'd have to combo off and then drop the ROL/AL, 'cause it stops you from comboing too.

Yep, I understand how the cards work...

Pce,

--DC

[luckymartyr]

I am interested in playing this deck at origins. Would evoke creatures be useful for utility in this deck. I realize it plays like a combo deck and is willing to give up things like card advantage to come up with win conditions, but how about incorporating muldrifter into the deck. He doesn't mess with your cascade, pitches to force of will and may allow you to dig into your combo. Legacy in general is probably too fast for muldrifter but I wanted to throw it out there as a possibility.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Mulldrifter is useless in that the only time it's good is before your combo. Putting it into play with Hypergenesis will not be useful the very large majority of the time as there's not anything you need after hypergenesis resolves. It costs too much either way (cmc or alt. cc) to be useful to dig before the combo (turn 3 is too late, ESG/SSG acceleration whatever, it's still too slow). After the combo it's useless at worst, FoW/MisD fodder at best.

Pce,

--DC

[ykpon]

i've played this deck today in a 19 men tourney. my result was unimpressive (2-2-1) but i still like this deck. i never had any troubles with going off turn 1-2 really. my build hadn't changed a lot:

4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Reflecting Pool (had to be the 4th Mine, but i didn't find it. upd: just understood Pool is better than City here as 2 or 3 of)

4 Progenitus
4 Empyrial Archangel
4 Inkwell Leviathan

8 Spirit Guides
4 Ardent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
4 Force of Will
4 Street Wraith
4 Serum Powder
2 Hypergenesis

my sb was:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Decree of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring (had to be the 3rd Decree of Silence, but i didn't find it)

my matches were: LED Ichorid (1-1), LED Ichorid (2-0), Train Wreck (0-2), Goblins (1-2), Merfolk (2-1). some thoughts:

ichorid looks like 50/50 or a bit worse pre-board. depends on their hand a lot. after sb we have Leylines+Powders, it's often enough. Faery Macabre can be used too if you expect tons of Ichorids. Just don't forget they can have Gargadons, some random fatties like Akroma or just a Stinky, so don't go off having just a single Archangel or something like that, with Leyline you usually will have enough time to build something better. the worst thing they can have is Blazing Archon (if you don't run Rings as me), but it's a singletone and can't be fetched with Leyline in play, so who cares. Tormod's Crypt isn't popular novadays so Ichorids don't play sb Chalices anymore. that means don't side Grips in against them.

train wreck (it was mbc with a deed+grip splash really) is the worst match you can have. heavy discard, Innocent Bloods, Edicts, Damnations and so on. my plan was a fast genesis into a random fatty plus Decree or Silence. but i had only two of them, so obviously didn't get what i wanted.

goblins can be fast and have some edicts too but seems to be a good matchup anyway. like against ichorid first game is 50/50 and the you have Leylines+Powders, here it's the same thing but with Fallouts instead of Leylines. unfortunately the build i've played against had a full set of Earwig Squads and they are just gg against us. also, playing Violent Outburst agains goblins (and a lot of other decks too), never forget to do it exactly during their upkeep for obvious reasons: they didn't draw additional card yet and their creatures already would't get haste if they don't have a Warchief.

merfolks are bad pre-board because of Cursecatchers, Dazes, FoWs and at the same time still a fast clock. but after sb this match becomes very favorable. all you need is a forced mull into Fallout, it's really that awesome here.

and about some not obvious things in my decklist:

Gemstone Caverns. it had been already discussed at page 5 and i still think that "i draw" strategy here is worth it. i never had turn 0 combo today but i saw turn 1 caverns+land+guide in mb half of all the games i've played. the only thing you really want to play first against is Counterbalance. and maybe Hymn to Tourach too.

Undiscovered Paradise. awesome land. we don't care about it's drawback at all. it's just quite bad in multiples, so play 2 or 3 of.

Street Wraith. some kind of a filler. personally, i like deck thinning and the ability to get an additional chump blocker with Hypergenesis. also, it's the card you can side out :smile: can be replaced with Decrees or some mixture of Misdirection and additional fatties.

Serum Powder. Demonic Dread is bad, Intuition is slow, just 8 cascade spells aren't stable enough. Powder solves this problem. also the ability to have forced mull into Grip, Leyline or Fallout is awesome awesome against Chalice, Ichorid and Merfolk respectively.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Heres what I'm thinking:



4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tendo Ice Bridge//Sulfur Vent
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Progenitus
3 Empyrial Archangel
4 Inkwell Leviathan

4 Thraximundar (I felt you needed more fatties; Thraximundar pitches to FoW, MisD, Unmask, and Pyrokinesis, and takes care of a creature they just put into play with your HG right away since it has haste. I'd run 4 even though it's legendary because it's easy to pitch multiples with your protection. If you don't like that, use Simic Sky Swallower instead and put Unmasks in the SB and move the MisD's to the main, that way you can side in more black spells along with the Unmasks.)

8 Spirit Guides
3 Demonic Dread (Castable turn one via a land and 2 SSG's)
3 Show and Tell (Castable turn one via a land and any 2 Spirit Guides)
4 Violent Outburst (Castable turn one via a land and any 2 spirit guides)
4 Force of Will
2 Hypergenesis
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Unmask--This can really help against Stifle on Cascade, get rid of Forces, Humility, Wrath, Edicts, etc.

my sb was:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Jund Charm//Pyrokinesis--I think these are both better than the Volc. whatever...
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Decree of Silence
3 MisD--Added protection for the blue matchups.


I like this a lot better. As Emidln has pointed out, Show and Tell is a lot better against stuff like Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. I think this list is a bit more well-rounded against some of the stuff you have been talking about being a bad matchup. I'm also not fond at all of Serum Powder, I find it to be a dead card. I tried it in the SW non-D-Day version of FT way back, and it simply sucked for me. I hate it and think it's wasted space at best.

Pce,

--DC

[ykpon]

Dark_Cynic87, no offence, but your list seems not to be tested at all.

14 lands means you can't go off without at least one spirit guide and also you nearly never would be able to play Grip or mass removal EOT and cascade next turn. add some wastelands, ports, cursecatchers, dazes, trinispheres etc. they all can easily wreck all your plans.

the other thing is a number of free spells. you just haven't enough fuel for them. your combo needs a lot of cards by itself: at least 3 mana, a cascade spell and a couple of beaters. the other ~2 cards in your hand are to protect combo. and here's what you will get very often in those slots: FoW+Oring/Unmask/SpiritGuide/land/2ndCascade or Unmask+Oring/SpiritGuide/land/S&T. and just 4 FoWs + 4 Unmask are still quite acceptable. but you are going to side Pyrokinesis/Misdirection (or mb even both against merfolk) too, right?

and finally:

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Thraximundar
i'm sure, it isn't the best combo ever :rolleyes:

[Dark_Cynic87]

Dark_Cynic87, no offence, but your list seems not to be tested at all.

14 lands means you can't go off without at least one spirit guide and also you nearly never would be able to play Grip or mass removal EOT and cascade next turn. add some wastelands, ports, cursecatchers, dazes, trinispheres etc. they all can easily wreck all your plans.

the other thing is a number of free spells. you just haven't enough fuel for them. your combo needs a lot of cards by itself: at least 3 mana, a cascade spell and a couple of beaters. the other ~2 cards in your hand are to protect combo. and here's what you will get very often in those slots: FoW+Oring/Unmask/SpiritGuide/land/2ndCascade or Unmask+Oring/SpiritGuide/land/S&T. and just 4 FoWs + 4 Unmask are still quite acceptable. but you are going to side Pyrokinesis/Misdirection (or mb even both against merfolk) too, right?

and finally:

i'm sure, it isn't the best combo ever :rolleyes:

No offense taken, but I test on MWS. I hope this makes my list more explanatory, and while the Thraximundar//Forbidden Orchard is in fact not horrible, it still is a decent turn 1/2 swinger that makes Forbidden Orchard's "draw-back" a non-matter, getting rid of the blocker you gave them. I thought that was what could be understood, that it makes it unable to be blocked by that one creature you gave them early game. Look at Emidln's list. He runs 14 lands and also said that it's been running fine. You need to understand that this is a combo list and that you probably aren't mulliganing as you should be. Also, your little thing for Serum Powder is probably messing up how and when you mulligan as you hate to mulligan if one isn't in your hand, because they are damn useless after mulligan-time is over, making your judgement impaired.

As to the Pitch-cards: I have to disagree. I think there's enough and it's never been an issue for me. Know your matchups and your metagame better and you will know what to use in the maindeck as well as which ones to use and when to use them as well as which ones should be main and which should be sideboarded.

One more thing: As well as your low amount of creatures (note that I said that you could just use Simic Sky Swallower instead of Thrax) and then also a lack of ways to play them other than when you cascade into Hypergenesis (Show and Tell works well). It showed just how lacking in flexibility your list truly was (2-2-1 at a 19 man tourney), and that a couple things needed changing. I was just relaying what has been doing good for me, and that hopefully you could take something useful from my posts.

/last post

I've been looking into Intuition in the Sideboard to grab 3x Prog, keep one, shuffle back and then drop it into play with S&T (again, Emidln's idea). I can't find space right now, but I'm still testing.

Pce,

--DC

[Ciberon]

Is it possible to add Cloudstone Curio and Bogardan Hellkite to kill when Hypergenesis hits the table?

[emidln]

The list I posted had 16 lands and 8 spirit guides. At least I think four times four is sixteen. Maybe not...

[Roman Candle]

Is it possible to add Cloudstone Curio and Bogardan Hellkite to kill when Hypergenesis hits the table?

This doesn't work the way you think it works. The Hypergenesis needs to finish resolving before the Cloudstone trigger resolves.

[Dark_Cynic87]

The list I posted had 16 lands and 8 spirit guides. At least I think four times four is sixteen. Maybe not...

looked again, I'm wrong. 16 it is. BTW, Geothermal Crevice is probably better than Sulfur Vent for the list.

[emidln]

looked again, I'm wrong. 16 it is. BTW, Geothermal Crevice is probably better than Sulfur Vent for the list.

Lol, I would imagine so. I don't own foil Geothermal Crevices though...

[Dark_Cynic87]

Right...I see. Well, for those of you basing your card choices on something other than aesthetics (such as usefulness, colors and etc.), I would choose Geothermal Crevices. Otherwise, if you have foil Sulfur Vents, use those.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

Right...I see. Well, for those of you basing your card choices on something other than aesthetics (such as usefulness, colors and etc.)

Heretic.

[Guevera59]

Hey guys, I have a question regarding the protection suite. Is it better to play Ardent Plea's and FoW/Misd; or, is it better to run Demonic Dread and Unmask/Thoughtseize? Or, can one run Dreads and a Unmask/Thoutseize with FoW? In my minimal testing, I've found Ardent plea difficult to cast with Geothermal Crevice, and both Spirit Guides.

[emidln]

Hey guys, I have a question regarding the protection suite. Is it better to play Ardent Plea's and FoW/Misd; or, is it better to run Demonic Dread and Unmask/Thoughtseize? Or, can one run Dreads and a Unmask/Thoutseize with FoW? In my minimal testing, I've found Ardent plea difficult to cast with Geothermal Crevice, and both Spirit Guides.

Thoughtseize doesn't work very well in this deck.

Irrigation Ditch and Sulfur Vents both produce U off their sac ability. This lets them cast either Show and Tell or Ardent Plea with only a single other land. Irrigation Ditch further produces white if you don't want to sac it, leaving it open for potential use to casting Ardent Plea and then something else if the Plea's cascade doesn't work.

I'm convinced that the following is the correct order for inclusion of the cheating effects:

Show and Tell
Violent Outburst
Ardent Plea
Demonic Dread

Show and Tell is best because nothing the opponent drops save for Moat/Humility can effectively deal with our top two threats (Prog/Inkwell) and even a strong Goyf has difficulty matching Empyrial Archangel or Simic Sky Swallower.

Violent Outburst is the easiest to cast cascade spell with the added benefit of instant speed.

Ardent Plea has a useful side effect (the exalted can be nontrivial if the opponent puts somewhat relevant dudes on the table). The white/blue is awkward to cast, but it is pitchable to the two best cards to protect our combo (Force of Will and Misdirection).

Demonic Dread requires a creature meaning that it's best against aggro decks (something we should typically crush) and will require a Forbidden Orchard to be useful against control or combo. This puts it at the back of my list. Demonic Dread does enable Unmask, although the normal creature base doesn't tend to support Unmask very well.

For those of you using Misdirection, it should be noted that you can sometimes Misdirect Stifle to your City of Brass. The key to this lies in announcing your cascade spell first and then paying for it with City of Brass. At this point there will be two triggered abilities that go on the stack. I would suggest putting the cascade trigger on top of the stack so it resolves with the one life point lifeloss still on the stack in case of Stifle. This might also be useful in bluffing Misdirection to a competent opponent.

[jimirynk]

// Lands
3 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
3[CHK] Forbidden Orchard
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool

// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [CFX] Magister Sphinx

// Spells
4 [MM] Misdirection
2 [TSP] Hypergenesis
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ARB] Violent Outburst
4 [ARB] Demonic Dread
2 [MM] Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [RAV] Blazing Archon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 2 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

Just saying.

[ELD]

I got to play against Hypergenesis a while ago at Over the Edge. Game 1 I was able to counter his Hypergenesis, which seems like it should happen a lot. The second game was much more memorable. He played a land and passed. I dropped an island and passed. On his turn he used a spirit guide to play his cascade spell, my brainstorm reveals no Force of Will or Daze, so it resolves.

He drops Sphinx of the Steel Wind
I drop Counterbalance
He drops Woodfall Primus
I drop Dark Confidant
He's out of creatures to drop
I drop Dark Confidant
I drop Sower of Temptation
I drop Sower of Temptation

I untapped with 20 points of damage ready to go :D

[Hopo]

I got to play against Hypergenesis a while ago at Over the Edge. Game 1 I was able to counter his Hypergenesis, which seems like it should happen a lot. The second game was much more memorable. He played a land and passed. I dropped an island and passed. On his turn he used a spirit guide to play his cascade spell, my brainstorm reveals no Force of Will or Daze, so it resolves.

He drops Sphinx of the Steel Wind
I drop Counterbalance
He drops Woodfall Primus
I drop Dark Confidant
He's out of creatures to drop
I drop Dark Confidant
I drop Sower of Temptation
I drop Sower of Temptation

I untapped with 20 points of damage ready to go :D

Sounds like a shitty build. The whole point is to have creatures that can win the game uninterrupted, meaning creatures with shroud or protection from swords/bounce. Sometimes you can only drop one or two creatures, so you need to be sure that they stick on your side. I see Magister Sphinx as an exception to this, but it compensates by dealing ~10 damage anyway. I'm still not sure if it good enough, though. In last tournament I remember winning games with it and losing games because of it. Go figure.

[jimirynk]

// Lands
3 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
3 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool

// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [CFX] Magister Sphinx

// Spells
4 [MM] Misdirection
2 [TSP] Hypergenesis
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ARB] Violent Outburst
4 [ARB] Demonic Dread
2 [MM] Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [DIS] Bond of Agony


fixed.
ahahah
this deck brings the lawlz.

[Roman Candle]

SB: 1 [DIS] Bond of Agony


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they make it so this doesn't work anymore?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they make it so this doesn't work anymore?

I wish you were wrong. I thought it was hot, and that I was going to play 2 decks with the kill spell using the word "Agony". However, it doesn't work anymore, as they did fix it to where Bond of Agony doesn't work.

Also, if it were an easier combo to get pieces of, I'd like to play Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience in the build, but you have to hit both cards, and it's just not Viable.

Pce,

--DC

[jimirynk]

Then

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 K grip

[Moczoc]

A friend gave me many of the cards for this deck. Now I'll try to pull the maximum out of the Hypergenesis-concept. There are still 2 ways for the deck:

-> pure aggro version. Put 2, 3 or 4 Big Beaters into play with HG and strike for the win with haste. This version can be slowed to a loss with creature removal.

My list:

Creatures
4 Hellkite Overlord
4 Magister Sphinx
2 Razia, Boros Archangel
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Spirit of the Night
4 Brimstone Dragon
1 Rorix Bladewing
1 Garza Zol, Plague Queen

Spells
2 Hypergenesis
11 "Cascade"
4 City of Solitude

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Pillar of the Paruns


second version
-> The more secure and controllish way. Disrupt and stop creatures with the Big Moat and the walking Vindicate ;) and then beat with StP-proof fatties.

My list:

Creatures
4 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Empyrial Archangel
4 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Progenitus
3 Angel of Despair

Spells
2 Hypergenesis
4 Force of Will
11 "Cascade"
4 Form of the Dragon

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Pillar of the Paruns
2 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Brass



I'll take some time to test both. Comments?

[Hopo]

First, you are automatically two turns slower than any other build in this thread since you don't play spirit guides. Major mistake. Instead you play really bad lands, like pillar, factory and ice bridge. Read the thread. There are plenty of versions which can drop game ending fatties turn 1 or 2. Now your fastest chance of trying anything is turn 3. It is damn slow since every imaginable hate card is available by then. You cannot combo Through Trinisphere before turn 6, for example.
There is a reason why Show and Tell is found in most lists. It's unacceptable to scoop to Meddling Mage or chalice set for zero.

You also have too many cascade spells. Demonic Dread is bad and forces you to play Forbidden Orchard.

You need something to address board control, and that would be Oblivion Ring.

Please, read the thread. You are lacking the very basics of what makes the deck playable. Now you just die to every peace of hate ever. You really do. You play the worst lands, least protection and suboptimal creature package.

[Damiles]

How about a list with dreamhalls? And you could also hybrid pitch-world with this.

[yougo]

hi im getting interested more and more with this deck lately

here is the version im working on

mana 20

4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 tendo ice bridge (cana be something else)
4 ssg
4 esg

cascade 8

4 ardent plea
4 violant outburst

the spell 2

2 hypergenesis

disrupt 8

4 force
4 misd

artifact 4

4 serum powder

creature18

3 progenitus
4 inkwell leviathan
3 iona
3 imperial archangel
1 hellkite overlord (random)
4 street wraith

sideboard

4 gemstone mine (assuming you win game 1:cool: )
2 bant charm ?
2 dromaz charm ?
2 deed
3 mortify
2 kgrip

i think this deck is still quite inconsistant but still show great speed and deserve attantion further testing should be done to optimise it at is finest form and i think it will give some result

btw i hate deamonic dread i dont think its good card and dont deserve a spot too situational

about the sideboard im pretty mess up i think ill try this and change it in the near future but i do think that the cavern should be in the side and not main its tomuch a bad top deck

serum powder as been a great card from me optimizing always optimizing dont be afraid to aggresive mulligan

well thats about it what do you all think? be back soon

[MeddlingMageGR]

After almost 3 years, I decide to open again this threat, because we have some improvement. In 03/06/2012, Todd Anderson finished 5th in StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Columbus, among 258 players. His decklist was that one :


2 Maelstrom Wanderer
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Progenitus
4 Shardless Agent
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Violent Outburst

2 Hypergenesis
4 Show and Tell

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Ingot Chewer
3 Terastodon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dismember

any thoughts or opinions about this decklist ?

[Phelix]

Won a local 4 round legacy tournament yesterday playing this.


1 Maelstrom Wanderer
1 Akromas Memorial
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Progenitus
1 Sower of temptation
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog (i only owned one progenitus, from playing BantOrder)
4 Shardless Agent
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Violent Outburst

2 Hypergenesis
4 Show and Tell

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Duplicant
1 Terastodon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dismember

I beat:

Maverick 2-1:

Game one, i go off turn 1 with cascade. some fatty wins it.
Game two, i dont find any fatties at all, lose turn 7 to random beats.
Game three, i turn 2 show and tell => emrakul

Nick fit 2-0

Dredge 2-0

RUG Delver 2-1 (close games)


Even without all the right cards, this deck won a bunch. But I must confess its kinda boring to play, after the "Oh Look my dude is SO big" - has subsided.

In the future I might play some firesprout effect in sideboard. (and get some progenitus. I think 3 is a good number)

[Shadowmap]

What would you leave as your odd man out fatty if you play 3 Progenitus?

[Phelix]

id probably play terastodon main.

it solves some problems that can occur, as well as sometimes hitting for 18

[Shadowmap]

Just saw that there is also a thread for this deck in the Established Decks section, that thread can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24068-Deck-Hypergenesis).

[Holmen]

I've been playing food chain for 1-2 years with some success, and have recently been tinkering with Hypergenesis. Went to a local tournament with this build:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Saprazzan Skerry
1 Hickory Woodlot
8 Guides
tot =25

4 Emrakul
4 Omniscience
4 Griselbrand
4 SnT
4 Fow
1 Misdirection
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
2 Hypergenesis
4 Violent Outburst
4 Shardless Agent
=35

Game 1 Miracles:
I'm on the play, play a Hickory Woodlot. He plays a fetch. In my turn I play a fetch, and respond to him fetching in my EOT by fetching myself, going for the outburst, row his flow, put out Omniscience and Griselbrand.

Game 2 Miracles:
He is on the play, on his first upkeep before he plays his first land I exile 3 guides, play outburst for Omniscience and Cunning wish getting Call for Emrakul. Win in my turn.

Game 1 Dredge:
He is on the play, dredge some, I fake FOW so he goes for cabal on that. I play turn one Emrakul.

Game 2 Dredge:
He dredges some. I play turn one Emrakul.

Game 1 Brug Tempo:
I'm on the play. I play turn one Emrakul.

Game 2 Brug Tempo:
He goes delver, I play Skerry. He plays fetch, I combo out turn 2 around Daze with a guide and fowing his fow.

Game 1 Omni:
I draw land every turn (the backside of no cantrips), he combos out.

Game 2:
I combo out, we both get Omniscience but I also have a Griselbrand ---> Emrakul.

Game 3:
I play a turn one Griselbrand and win.

4-0, 8-1 matches, not a single game won after turn 2. The deck seems sweet and the new mulligan rule is awesome for us. It feels like trolling, but it requires some setup knowing when to resolve the win. The deck preys on ordinary sloppy plays, like fetching without an Island and losing Daze for a second.
Cunning Wish gets all the answers which the deck lacks in the main: Hurkyls Recall, Wipe Away, Volcanic Fallout, etc. The board is otherwise tight, a couple of evoke dudes destroying artifacts and Macabres.

/J

[jrsthethird]

Let me quote the post directly above yours:


Just saw that there is also a thread for this deck in the Established Decks section, that thread can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24068-Deck-Hypergenesis).

[Holmen]

I thought I searched everywhere but apparently I'm an idiot. :)
Thanks! Posting there instead.


Let me quote the post directly above yours: