Venser, Shaper Savant

[AngryTroll]

If I counter a spell with Venser, does it go to my opponent's hand, or the graveyard? Remand says "Return that spell card"-is that different?


Also, can I counter Ishochron Scepter spells with Meddling Mage? Counterbalance?

[Skeggi]

If I counter a spell with Venser, does it go to my opponent's hand, or the graveyard? Remand says "Return that spell card"-is that different?
This is an odd question. Venser says:

Flash (You may play this spell any time you could play an instant.)
When Venser, Shaper Savant comes into play, return target spell or permanent to its owner's hand.
It doesn't say anything about countering. Check this out, I think this answers your question:

A spell returned to its owner's hand isn't countered, it is simply removed and will not resolve. [Future Sight FAQ 2007/05/01]
EDIT (Van Phanel pointed out an error, I was wrong etc.):

Also, can I counter Ishochron Scepter spells with Meddling Mage? Counterbalance?
First off, again, Meddling Mage also doesn't counter. Meddling Mage says that a certain card can't be played. Isochron Scepter says:

You may copy the imprinted instant card. If you do, you may play the copy without paying its mana cost.
Meddling Mage only stops cards; the copy isn't a card.

Counterbalance says:
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.
So if your opponent casts a spell via Isochron Scepter, it's placed on the stack as normal. Counterbalance can counter such a spell.

[yggdrasil]

If I counter a spell with Venser, does it go to my opponent's hand, or the graveyard? Remand says "Return that spell card"-is that different?

Venser clearly states to "return target spell or permanent to its owner's hand." So, why would you put the spell into the graveyard instead?



Also, can I counter Ishochron Scepter spells with Meddling Mage? Counterbalance?
No, Meddling Mage doesn't counter spells at all, but the Scepter tells you to play spells. Meddling Mage says you cannot play that particular spell, so you can't.
How exactly fits Counterbalance in here? What is your question exactly?

[Van Phanel]

This is an old mistake.

Meddling Mage reads:


As Meddling Mage comes into play, name a nonland card.
The named card can't be played.

(emphasis by me)


Isochron Scepter's ability allows you to play a copy of the imprinted spell and that copy is not a card.

That means Meddling Mage does not stop Isochron Scepter.

[Volt]

AngryTroll's question was sloppily worded, and I don't think he's gotten a full answer to what he was trying to ask. Let me rephrase for him...

Scenario: Opponent casts a spell. With the spell on the stack, I cast Venser, Shaper Savant, targeting the spell. The spell is returned to the borrower's hand, and thus never resolves.

Now, what happens to the opponent's card? Does it go to the graveyard, or does it stay in his hand because the spell never resolved? I think I know the answer, but I'll wait for one of the judges to respond.

[cdr]

Wait, what? The "spell" is the card.

[Volt]

Wait, what? The "spell" is the card.

So, there's never a distinction between "spell" and "card?" I always thought that a card became a spell once you cast it. Kind of a fine distinction, I know. And one that doesn't exist, apparently.

So the card stays in the opponent's hand, which is what I thought.

[AngryTroll]

AngryTroll's question was sloppily worded, and I don't think he's gotten a full answer to what he was trying to ask. Let me rephrase for him...

Scenario: Opponent casts a spell. With the spell on the stack, I cast Venser, Shaper Savant, targeting the spell. The spell is returned to the borrower's hand, and thus never resolves.

Now, what happens to the opponent's card? Does it go to the graveyard, or does it stay in his hand because the spell never resolved? I think I know the answer, but I'll wait for one of the judges to respond.

Yup, that was my question, thought it was more clear.

Remand clearly says "Counter target spell. If you do, return that spell card to its owner's hand." This wording doesn't match Venser's. However, I now see that the Oracle Text on Remand says "Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard;" I wanted to clarify if there was a difference between "Spell" and "Spell card."

Looks like the opponent's spell will end up in their hand, Venser in play, and no effect from their spell?

[cdr]

So, there's never a distinction between "spell" and "card?" I always thought that a card became a spell once you cast it. Kind of a fine distinction, I know. And one that doesn't exist, apparently.

So the card stays in the opponent's hand, which is what I thought.

There's a distinction - a spell can be either a card or a copy. However, in this case, the spell is a card. I have a real hard time seeing where you're coming from - the spell *is* a card.

[Volt]

There's a distinction - a spell can be either a card or a copy. However, in this case, the spell is a card. I have a real hard time seeing where you're coming from - the spell *is* a card.

Okay. I'm not trying to argue with you. Thanks for clearing it up.

[cdr]

No one is saying you're arguing, just trying to help you understand.

[Pinder]

To clarify a little on why the wording of Remand is different than the wording of Venser, part of the process of countering a spell is putting into its owner's graveyard:



414.1. To counter a spell is to move the spell from the stack to its owner's graveyard. Countering an ability removes it from the stack. Spells and abilities that are countered don't resolve and none of their effects occur.


The reason Remand needs that "If that spell is countered this way..." replacement effect is because it's doing something that puts the spell in the graveyard intrinsically, so it needs that clause to replace that part of countering a spell.

Venser never actually counters anything, so he doesn't need a replacement effect because no part of what he does sends anything to the graveyard.

[Volt]

No one is saying you're arguing, just trying to help you understand.

Okay.

I guess I just had a very basic misunderstanding about the difference between cards and spells. I thought that when you cast a card, it created a spell which was then placed on the stack and was technically separate from the card. Thus, Venser would only be bouncing the spell back to the owner's hand, and the spell would then just sort of disappear (like when you bounce a token creature back to its owner's hand). The fate of the card itself was a bit of a mystery to me, although I figured it stayed in the player's hand because the spell never resolved (the card doesn't go to the graveyard until the spell resolves). Apparently, I arrived at the "right" answer, but my work was all wrong.

[Nihil Credo]

Also, Venser's wording was probably chosen to be cleaner, but it has the side benefit of letting it send uncounterable spells back to their owner's hand, a trick that doesn't work with Remand.

[zer0style]

Yes, I always thought Venser returned the actuall card to the owners hand, not to the graveyard. I learned that the spell IS the card, and vice versa :)