[Deck] Cascade End

[Cire]

originally i was going to just fool around with this deck on my own, but seeing the hyper-genesis discussion and seeing this deck being brought up their as comparison made me want to post this.

First the deck list

- Cascade End

4 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask
3 Misdirection

4 Shriekmaw

3 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
3 Ardent Plea

16 Lands

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as of now i'm still working on the the mana base, but it's pretty apparent that it will be painful to look at it and in general as well. The side board is also still in flux so i didn't post it yet. (although as you will see latter, it has a minimum of 8 graveyard hate, Leyline would probably be a 4 of)

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In comparison to the Genesis cascade combo here are the main points

+ This runs more protection, the genesis combo as i saw it only runs Fow Or unmask, with occasional mentions of misdirection: this deck run all of them for an almost complete set of 11, additionally this deck has greater card draw in the form of 20! cyclers.
+ Again this has more card draw, and can actually do something in the first 2 turns of the game, with shriek maw and counters along with drawing cards.
+ This deck is geared towards combating aggro decks, the combo resets them and gives you around 9-10 power worth of creature 3 turn. As goblins and merfolk lost a bunch of their men you ready to bring the beat down.
- 10 powers of creatures isn't that much when it comes against combo, you relying too much on your counters
- This deck is useless against ichorid. Actually your worse than useless against it...
- Counterbalance & Wrath-moat Effects destroy you. Your deck can recover or even counter them, but the fact that commonly played cards wreck your plan is kind of bad.
- This deck is one turn slower than the hyper-genesis deck

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Other than that the plan of the deck is pretty obvious, cycle as much as possible for the first 2/3 turns, shriek/counter/discard opponents stuff if you want, then play a cascade spell into living end, wrath their board, and then have around 9-10 (actually the max would be something like 24 power turn 3, but that is very very unlikely) power on the board, and then keep swinging for the win

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As always help/comments/rants are appreciated; mostly for the sideboard and the land base, which i can't figure out other than 16 5c color lands (but that sound terrible)

[rufus]

I'm still wondering if Foil is a worthwhile card in a deck like this. It's a 3-for-1, but it runs on discard instead of RFG, which should make it a pseudo 2-for-1.

I wonder about Shriekmaw since it can backfire on you. Mulldrifter seems like a potential inclusion.

Dimir Doppelganger fits the CMC curve, is pitchable to FoW and Unmask, and can act as a (slow) reanimator.

Faerie Macabre is probably a good sideboard card for this deck.

I think the land-cycler creatures have good potential for helping with the mana base. In particular, Igneous Pouncer's haste gives it an extra swing, which might offset the slowdown.

[Malchar]

It doesn't seems like you should need so many creatures, and you could also trim the number of living end. You could consider using spirit guides to help accelerate the deck since they won't mess up the cascade. As for the land, might as well play with all the ones that produce any color. The current list looks like an all-in build, which is probably the best way to go since you can't use any normal cards with low cmc anyway.

[Cire]

I'm still wondering if Foil is a worthwhile card in a deck like this. It's a 3-for-1, but it runs on discard instead of RFG, which should make it a pseudo 2-for-1.

I wonder about Shriekmaw since it can backfire on you. Mulldrifter seems like a potential inclusion.

Dimir Doppelganger fits the CMC curve, is pitchable to FoW and Unmask, and can act as a (slow) reanimator.

Faerie Macabre is probably a good sideboard card for this deck.

I think the land-cycler creatures have good potential for helping with the mana base. In particular, Igneous Pouncer's haste gives it an extra swing, which might offset the slowdown.

I don't think foil is the best inclusion, we already run 11 protection/distruption pieces which is just as good if not better than most combo and aggro decks deck.

Shriekmaw can never really backfire, since if i destroy a non-black creature and then living end, they get their creature back which is once again target by shriekmaw and dies...again

There is no reason to dilute the combo really by putting in the doppleganger, also i think ill go with Malchar's suggestion with simply a 5c mana base, as any other attempt would probably fail.

The pouncer would probably speed up the kill by at least half a turn, unfortunately though it's really fragile. One thing i like about this decks creatures is they are mostly immune to burn (a lot of 4 toughness), and some of them even have useful abilities that prevent your opponent from stabilizing.
Of note:
Architects: you control your opponents next three draw steps, a pretty big deal once they have an empty board
Deadshot: Like shriekmaw, if they get back a flyer you kill it again.
Streetwraith: Swampwalk is more relevant than i ever imagined.

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The spirit guides are actually detrimental to the decks plan, because unlike the genesis deck you don't want to go off as soon as possible. You want and need a game state where your goldfish after living end > opponents goldfish after living end. This most likely equates to having more power worth of creature in your graveyard than your opponent.

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So far the land base looks like this

4 City of Brass
4 Volcanic Island
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Pillar of Paruns


yes it's one of the most painful things you've seen in your life, i know my eyes are bleeding as i look at it, although as of now that the best i could do, if anyone could take another stab at it, i would be thankful

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Before we start working on the sideboard, i think we need to answer four questions:
How much graveyard hate does it take to beat Ichorid with a turn 5/6 goldfish?
Is their enough good graveyard hate costing 3 or more?
Is it worth devoting the sideboard to beating ichorid?
What are our other weak matchups?

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assuming i am going first, i think we can counter or discard their discard conditions and engines (Breakthrough, LED, ect) yet Ichorid is capable of fast recovery anyway and the living end combo helps them so idk. Also the only decent graveyard hate above 3 is Leyline, Faerie Macabre and loaming shaman. Unfortunately that seams way to slow... It seams that trying to beat ichorid would be a waste of our time, we simply need to devote the sideboard to beating other decks (like loam, which would still require the obligatory leyline) instead.

[rufus]

So far the land base looks like this

4 City of Brass
4 Volcanic Island
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Pillar of Paruns

yes it's one of the most painful things you've seen in your life, i know my eyes are bleeding as i look at it, although as of now that the best i could do, if anyone could take another stab at it, i would be thankful

How about something with fetch/duals...

4x City of Brass
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubbland
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Island
1x Plains

[Phoenix Ignition]

I wonder about Shriekmaw since it can backfire on you.

It can't. If you use him before you get the cascade off, that means you killed one of their creatures. That creature will be in their graveyard, so when you hit the cascade and put Shriekmaw into play they'll put the creature in that you killed with it already. So you kill it again.

[Clark Kant]

I think that Elvish Spirit Guide or Simian Spirit Guide have potential here.

They let you cycle more creatures before resolving your "Living Death" effect turn three, enough to guarentee that you win on turn 4.

[Cire]

maybe SSG since it can provide R for Deadshot Minotaur and Monstrous Carabid, but ESG can only provide G for the Minotaur. And your right they would speed up the combo, but as of now i don't know what to take out of it? Maybe one cycling creature, one misdirect, and a shriekmaw? but that doesn't seam like an improvement...

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Also i have been working on the mana base some more and came up with this solution: first i though what colors do i absolutely need each turn?

1st turn U/R Land

U/R allows me to cycle each and every one of the one mana cyclers

Architects of Will : U
Deadshot Minotaur : R
Glassdust Hulk: U
Monstrous Carabid: R

so this was easy.

2nd turn U/R/B land

Same deal, U/R allows me to cycle any thing, but i also need black for Shriekmaw. So a 5c land would be the best solution in this spot

3rd W/G land

W/G? why do i need these colors? look at this way the only 2 spells you need to play this turn would either be the plea or assault. so lets take it step by step

you need 1UW for the plea, but you already have U, and X, so all you need no matter what would be W.

For assault all you need is 1RG, and you already have R, and X, so all you need no matter what would be G


So this is my mana base:

4 Volcanic Islands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 City of Brass
4 Savannah


Also the side board i have been working on:

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ingot chewer
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Abolish
2 Wispmare

just the complimentary graveyard/artifact/enchantment hate...

Eteranal dragon is their just as an extra beater, and for Abolish, The dragon can cycle into a plains which you can then discard (all at instant speed)

[georgjorge]

I've done some goldfishing on MWS...thoughts:

11 pieces of disruption is probably too much, especially since the Unmasks can't be pitched to Force/Misdirection. I'm now playing 2-3 Krosan Grips in the main so I don't auto-lose if a Counterbalance lands...with the amount of cycling, even 2-3 solutions to a card come up fairly often. I'm also thinking about Cunning Wish (getting Grip, Outburst, and other usual suspects).

I think a less painful base is very viable IF you cut the black, meaning Shriekmaw and Carabid...you are then basically UG, with white and red only for the Cascade spells. You can easily play something like

9-10 fetch
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Island

(and, in my case, also 4 Lonely Sandbar)

then, which can even enable Waste-proof openings. I'm not sure how crucial the 'Maws are though. What I'm trying is running 3 Submerge, which should take care of most Aggro, and can be pitched to both Misdirection and Force. I've replaced the Carabids with Primoc Escapee, which pitch as well, though cycling for two (getting hit by Minotaurs :rolleyes:) hurts.

My side has at least 2 more Grips, 1 more Submerge and 3 Wispmaws...

[(nameless one)]

hey yall,

im not gonna be one of those "i invented this deck" but i kinda have a deck idea that revolves around cascade end. i call it Krusty-Os

heres the decklist:

Krusty-Os
Lands:
5 Mountain
5 Forest
4 Gemstone Caverns

Creatures:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Barkhide Mauler
4 Jungle Weaver
4 Ridge Rannet
4 Yoked Plowbeast
3 Primoc Escapee

Spells:
4 Living End
4 Violent Outburst
4 Serum Powder
2 Fluctuator


basically, its a fluctuator deck and the win with the cascade combo.

the way to pilot this deck is to cycle as many creatures as you can (thank you for free cycling) till you can draw the cards needed. usually those cards would be mix of elvish spirit guide and simian spirit guide and violent outburst. one thing i realized is that violent outburst is an instant so you can play it at the end of your opponents turn, then cascade in living end and attack with everything on your turn.

im pretty sure that the non-noobs out there have figured out that the flaw of the deck is when you cascade in a fluctuator. to solve this, i've only put 2 fluctuators in the deck. now we face the problem of less probability in drawing fluctuator (its really important to have fluctuator on your opening hand). in order to solve this problem, ive added 4 serum powders (and they cannot be cascaded in)

so far, thats the only problem ive faced. i know the deck still looks fragile (thats why im asking for help) but the deck does look like it has potential.

[Knuckles29]

Why wouldn't you just play a Fluctuator deck then? They win turn 2

I like the idea of this deck but to me it just seems like the Bigger beats of Hypergenesis are better

I'll try it out though, I ordered Living Ends w/ my Hypergenesis because it was like $2 more and I have options now.

[Paradigm Shift]

What's your gameplan if they counter Living End or set Chalice at 0?

[Scrabble]

What's your gameplan if they counter Living End or set Chalice at 0?

Game one, that's just magic. Game two I plan on having City of Solitudes and Grips in the board. That'll really help that type of match-up. But really, the list I'm looking at has all 12 free disruption, which I think it maybe even too much. There will always be the weird games where there's a daze into a daze into a force of will, but there's nothing you can do about that. This deck runs more disruption than other combo decks, by a count of four. In my list I think I'm skipping on the Shriek-Maws MD due to high control meta, and then side them in afterwords if needed, prob for misdirections.

Also, another option is even running all eight cascade spells (1 from the side with my list), and then siding in 3-4 Defense Grids. This leaves them with 3-4 more must-counter cards, all of which can be found easily via cascade. I

I don't see chalice or blue as the end all be all against this deck. There's still lots of options.


edit: oh, and (nameless one), that's very inventive for sure. I really see what you mean about being fragile though. When I ran a helm-leyline suicide deck, I had the Powders and those weren't enough to get me a leyline opening for more than like 40% of the time it seemed. And your deck can only fit 2-3 fluctuators. That, coupled with the card disadvantage of the Gemstone Caverns + useless powders makes this very fragile and luck related. At the very least, I'd ditch the Caverns for a more reliable mana source, like regular Gemstones or the like. I'm interested to see if anyone else can figure something out to give the deck more consistency.

[Cire]

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@ Nameless one: Sorry, im going to apologize in advance if this sound harsh, i actually fool around with fluctuator in my casual games,but here my view of your deck...i just don't think fluctuator decks are that good (The forum in general agrees with this, evident through fluctuators presence in the DTB during cavius day). Also cascade and fluctuator also doesn't seam that strong since you never want to randomly cascade into it instead of living end. Also Serum powder is another really random card. Basically i like that your deck is inventive and fun, but the problem is that its too random, with fluctuator, cascade and serum powder. And then at it's best its more fragile and slower than even the Spanish inquisition, and at it's worst it doesn't work.
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I've done some goldfishing on MWS...thoughts:

11 pieces of disruption is probably too much, especially since the Unmasks can't be pitched to Force/Misdirection. I'm now playing 2-3 Krosan Grips in the main so I don't auto-lose if a Counterbalance lands...with the amount of cycling, even 2-3 solutions to a card come up fairly often. I'm also thinking about Cunning Wish (getting Grip, Outburst, and other usual suspects).

I think a less painful base is very viable IF you cut the black, meaning Shriekmaw and Carabid...you are then basically UG, with white and red only for the Cascade spells. You can easily play something like


I like the idea of cunning wish in the deck, as well as MD grips to help with CB and a chalice set at 0.

Cutting Shriekmaw is a viable possibility, since this deck can handle creatures pretty well....it's the point of the deck...

Although i don't particularly like the idea of cutting Unmask. I think this is the first time i have ever seen people complain about to much control/protection??... 12 might be to much, but 8 in my opinion is too little no matter what. I know we draw a lot of cards due to the large amount of cycling, but that is no excuse to run less than 10. We don't win as fast as other combo decks, and lose to specific cards, we need as much control as possible. It seams people are afraid of taking a control role in a matchup, and instead try to 'go off' ASAP. the thing i have found in testing is unless you wait it out till an opponent has laid down at least 2 creatures (or tried to)[of course not including burn/combo/decks that don't run creatures, then you want to combo asap], they can recover too easily. Additionally combo-ing off is not a guarantee, due to STP being present, so again more control is never a bad thing.

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Anyway i have tried to have a list that included a bunch of differing ideas; SSG's for speed (going off turn 2 or extra cycling), Krosan grip + Cunning wish MD (for outs against lose cards), 10 removal, etc.

4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Street Wraith
4 Glassdust Hulk
3 Architects of Will
3 Monstrous Carabid

4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Unmask
2 Krosan Grip
2 Cunning Wish

3 Violent Outburst
3 Ardent Plea
2 Living End

4 Volcanic Islands
4 Savannah
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Mountain
-16

SB//

3 Ignot Chewer
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing truth
1 Rushing River
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Abolish
1 Free Slot
-15

- this list isn't tested yet, as i said i recently made it to explore SSG, wish and Krosan grip MD.
- While so far in the couple games i played (testing is running a deck through a gauntlet, so far i just played 2 games against nassif deck) i am happy with the grips and wishs, but SSG md is less than stellar, never really want to go off turn 2 and the extra cycle provides -1 CA for only an extra 3.17 power is less than stellar (the goldfish is still the same post combo, just slightly more resilient against removal), If maw didn't murder the mana base i would replace this slot first.
- Even though i no longer play black mana sources, i feel that unmask is too important in this deck to be cut.

-In the sideboard i have tried to include all the needed wish targets, i still have 1 free slot left, i don't really know what to put in there.
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As always comments, etc?

[Zinch]

For the manabase, remember that forbidden orchard has no drawback, since you will kill the spirits with the living end after all (and they are a target for the red-black cascade spell as has been said in the hypergenesis thread (if by any reason you need to play more than 8 cascade spells))

[Clark Kant]

one thing i realized is that violent outburst is an instant so you can play it at the end of your opponents turn, then cascade in living end and attack with everything on your turn.

I think this is a relevent point. I would probably rather play a 4/2 split with Violent Outburst for this reason.




The spirit guides are actually detrimental to the decks plan, because unlike the genesis deck you don't want to go off as soon as possible. You want and need a game state where your goldfish after living end opponents goldfish after living end. This most likely equates to having more power worth of creature in your graveyard than your opponent.

That's actually WHY spirit guides would be good in the deck though.

Because they let you cycle more creatures before turn 3, so that you can find the cascade spell, disruption and sufficent lands by turn three and combo off turn three with up to 4 creatures in the yard thanks to Spirit Guide.

You don't use the Spirit Guides to play a cascade spell turn 2, you use them to cycle more creatures on turn 1-2 so that your cascade spell turn three gives you more threats, while you have more disruption/lands to back it up (since you cycled more).

Here is how I would make room for more spirit guides...

-1 Misdirection
-1 Living End
-2-4 Shriekmaw

+4-6 Spirit Guides

Shriekmaw doesn't seem all that important if you can consistently resolve Living End before turn 4 anyways.

Misdirection is the weakest disruption spell you have since it can't be used to hurt Storm Combo, and it can't be used to counter things like StP on your creatures post Living End.

[(nameless one)]

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@ Nameless one: Sorry, im going to apologize in advance if this sound harsh, i actually fool around with fluctuator in my casual games,but here my view of your deck...i just don't think fluctuator decks are that good (The forum in general agrees with this, evident through fluctuators presence in the DTB during cavius day). Also cascade and fluctuator also doesn't seam that strong since you never want to randomly cascade into it instead of living end. Also Serum powder is another really random card. Basically i like that your deck is inventive and fun, but the problem is that its too random, with fluctuator, cascade and serum powder. And then at it's best its more fragile and slower than even the Spanish inquisition, and at it's worst it doesn't work.
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Thats fine, I just got the idea from Cavius the Great and trying to invent a deck out of his innovative ideas...

meh

i guess my idea has more of a budget feel to it...

but on the real note, im gonna be working on Cire's original post... no more Fuctuators...

[Clark Kant]

Cire, I don't think you should cut cyclers to play maindeck Cunning Wish.

This really is very much an all in deck. You have FoW, Unmask and MisD to stop anything that shuts you down from resolving. That's the best you can hope for preboard.

If you dilute the combo for the sake of playing stuff like Wish preboard, you end up hurting your own speed and consistency.

And by not running maindeck Wish and focusing more on comboing off on turn 3 with 4 cards in the yard that you cycled, SSG becomes very strong in the deck.

For whatever reason, I actually like this deck more than the Hypergenesis build. But do you thinks that the other build is generally superior?

Also, could I maybe get some suggestions on this build. I'm still waiting on the cards to put it together in real life, but on workstation, it's been solid...

4 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask
2 Misdirection
2 Shriekmaw

3 Violent Outburst
2 Living End
3 Ardent Plea

16 Lands

Like I explained before...

Wanting to get as many creatures into the yard as you can when you go off is actually why simian spirit guide would be good in the deck.

Because it lets you cycle more creatures before turn 3, so that you can find the cascade spell, disruption and sufficent lands by turn three and combo off turn three with up to 4 creatures in the yard thanks to Spirit Guide.

You don't use the Spirit Guides to play a cascade spell turn 2, you use them to cycle more creatures on turn 1-2 so that your cascade spell turn three gives you more threats, while you have more disruption/lands to back it up (since you cycled more).

But I'm just wondering if you guys agree with my reasoning or not.

[Scrabble]

4 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask
2 Misdirection
2 Shriekmaw

3 Violent Outburst
2 Living End
3 Ardent Plea

16 Lands

Like I explained before...

Wanting to get as many creatures into the yard as you can when you go off is actually why simian spirit guide would be good in the deck.

Because it lets you cycle more creatures before turn 3, so that you can find the cascade spell, disruption and sufficent lands by turn three and combo off turn three with up to 4 creatures in the yard thanks to Spirit Guide.

You don't use the Spirit Guides to play a cascade spell turn 2, you use them to cycle more creatures on turn 1-2 so that your cascade spell turn three gives you more threats, while you have more disruption/lands to back it up (since you cycled more).

But I'm just wondering if you guys agree with my reasoning or not.

Hmm. I have not done any testing at all so this is theoretical. I feel like the Simian Spirit Guides will cause too much card disadvantage, and will make you sacrifice needed cyclers to Force/Mask. I think those slots are better used as Misdirection 3-4. There's never going to be too many disruption spells, as they always pitch to each other (well, the Misdirections/Forces), so I would run the full sets. I don't think that extra speed is really needed. I'm always in favor of going with the slower more resilient build of combo decks. And I think 12 disruption is enough to give control fits, and enough to slow aggro to where you will pull out the win. Misdirections can always be sided out g2 if needed. But again, i haven't tested and I'm not trying to pretend I know, it just looks to me from the outside that they are unnecessary. If I think if I were going to go that route, I'd go all in with just 8 disruption, but this deck it just not fast enough to do that.

And a quick question: Is 16 lands enough?? The math comes out that with 18 lands you will draw 3 lands every 9.9 cards. This deck requires a land drop every turn for the first 3. So if you play, you should get just under 3 lands by turn 3, but of course there's always mana clumps and mana droughts. I figure the that the cycling will raise that a bit, but I don't think I feel safe running 16, especially with a mana base so susceptible to wasteland (I'm going to go 5c). Is 17 the right number to ensure a quick and consistent chance to go off, maybe 18?

[Maveric78f]

My version of this concept is probably more controlish and less aggressive than yours. I still don't know if it's a good point.

// Lands (I still prefer the dual/fetch land manabase because it allows me to play Hedge-Mage quite reliably)
3 [U] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [ARE] Swamp (5)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Plateau
1 [U] Badlands

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Deadshot Minotaur (as I don't play G, it requires R, which can be problematic sometimes, that's the reason why I've cute it in first)
4 [ARB] Glassdust Hulk
4 [ARB] Monstrous Carabid
4 [ARB] Architects of Will
1 [CS] Garza's Assassin (tutorable anti-creature, awesome against most non red creature based decks, the pb is BBB of course)
1 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage (tutorable anti-creature and enchantment)
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [REL] Shriekmaw (as I take a controlish route, shriekmaw is both control and finish with evasion)
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique (great card, completely fits the deck, enables to play only 1 living end, it's tutorable with perplex and it can also be played a control element)

// Spells
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea (only these 4 that are tutorable with perplex)
1 [TSP] Living End
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Misdirection (I prefer misdi to unmask because it is a reactive spell, and I just have to watch out my U-card count. Someties, I regret to be able to counter only insta)
2 [RAV] Perplex (I needed a transmute spell in this slot, unfortunately, they are all quite crappy, perplex is blue, which is good when one plays Misdi and FoW, it does not require twice the same color to transmute, and it is quite often a hard counter, since the opponent tries to keep some fuel in hand, in order not to concede to Living End)

// Sideboard (self-explanatory)
SB: 2 [CS] Garza's Assassin
SB: 3 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 3 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 3 [LRW] Wispmare
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

I love the deck's ability to win without resolving Living End too.

Edit: I've juste noticed that intuition did better than Perplex for almost everything. I just have to cut the 1-of slots from MD and replace them with intuition 3 and 4.

[Maveric78f]

And a quick question: Is 16 lands enough?? The math comes out that with 18 lands you will draw 3 lands every 9.9 cards. This deck requires a land drop every turn for the first 3. So if you play, you should get just under 3 lands by turn 3, but of course there's always mana clumps and mana droughts. I figure the that the cycling will raise that a bit, but I don't think I feel safe running 16, especially with a mana base so susceptible to wasteland (I'm going to go 5c). Is 17 the right number to ensure a quick and consistent chance to go off, maybe 18?

20 cyclers implies that you play with a deck with 40 cards. 16/40 = 24/60. It mean an average of 4 lands at turn 3. More than enough. Actually in the Spirit Guides version, I would even expect it to play less lands 14 or 15.

[Maveric78f]

Ok, I feel a bit lonely on this thread.

Anyway, I'll give a little update to the deck.

The non-basic was clearly a problem, until I figured out that R was definitely not needed and intuition was the redundancy I needed.

In order to defend the living end cascade, in comparison with the hypergenesis cascade, I'll give the following highlights.

First thing to be aware-of: 16 cyclers means basically a deck with 44 cards. 16 lands in that deck is almost equivallent to 22 lands. Moreover by fetching -or not-, you can control quite reasonably your land count. At least you can change the odds. "8 permissions in a 44-cards decks" means also almost 11 permissions. And finally, "4 pleas in a 44 cards deck" means that you have 66% chance to draw one by turn 3 (after seeing 10 non-cycling cards), "4 pleas + 3 intuition in a 44 cards decks" means that you have 86% chance to find plea by turn 4. The only bad point is that you have 23% of chance to draw Living End. For my case, it did not change my point in not playing 2 copies, because Vendilion Clique is really good, even when we don't have Living End in hand.

Second thing to be aware-of: the deck can be very control, and trying to combo at any price is a very bad tech, especially postSB when the opponent has SBed in a lot of anti-grave cards. Okay, the deck plays no CA. But, once 5 lands in play, it can play a spell every turn very easily, all of them being 3CC more, meaning that they all are more powerful than most of your opponent's spells. Your creatures are 3/* and with plea in play, they can be 4/* attackers, often with evasion (fear, flying and swampwalk). Post-SB, I did not stats but I win at least 25% of my games without comboing.

// Lands (quite healthy 16-lands manabase)
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [ARE] Swamp (5)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
2 [P2] Island (1)
1 [P2] Plains (3)

// Creatures (16 cyclers + 8 control elements)
4 [ARB] Glassdust Hulk
4 [ARB] Monstrous Carabid
4 [ARB] Architects of Will
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [REL] Shriekmaw
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (5 combo enabler + 12 control elements + 3 tutors)
4 [ARB] Ardent Plea
1 [TSP] Living End
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Misdirection
4 [JGC] Vindicate
3 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Engineered Plague (tribal)
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void (ichorid, wasteland recursion, any combo with the yard)
SB: 4 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow (could even be MD, really good in that deck, replaces perfectly the shriekmaws in many MUs)
SB: 3 [MM] Snuff Out (could be changed by something else, other equipements like say jitte for a transformational SB?, jitte being tutored by plea for instance)

[Waikiki]

So in what matchups is this beter then de hypergenesis version? The creatures that come into play with this just seem underwhelming.

[rufus]

So in what matchups is this beter then de hypergenesis version? The creatures that come into play with this just seem underwhelming.

There's no crystalized list for either deck, but Cascade/End has fewer dead cards, more protection, and a stronger backup plan. I would expect it to be better in most matchups.

[Maveric78f]

So in what matchups is this beter then de hypergenesis version? The creatures that come into play with this just seem underwhelming.

The point is that we do not put into play 1 or 2 fatties, but at least 4-of them. Once Living End has resolved, it's a 2 turns clock, as well as with hypergenesis, and STP does nothing neither, since they face a swarm. Not even mentioning the fact that Living End wrathes the opponent's board while Hypergenesis fills it. Actually, I would return the quesiton, what does Hypergenesis Cascade do better than Cascade End? Putting into play the opponent's Humilities and CoPs?

[Skeggi]

Putting into play the opponent's Humilities and CoPs?
Humility, perhaps. But CoP? That's rediculous. No-one uses CoP's. Not even CoP:red. Also the 'boardfilling' of the Hypergenesis version is a weak argument, because you basically do the same, but then from the graveyard.

I think the major difference between the decks is that End uses cycle and therefor is more likely to hit some protection and early cascades. But Hypergenesis will most likely give you a stronger board position once it resolves and isn't graveyard dependant.

[Maveric78f]

CoP = Circle of Protection

It's more and more played now that it's an answer to burn, prog and gobs (at a lesser extent). So no, I don't think it's ridiculous. Hypergenesis giving a stronger board position, I'm still not sold on that, since it does not wrath at the same time, and that it's sensible to hate that does not affect Living End like Perish, Edicts, or multiple piledrivers. Appart from that, it's completely true that the main weeknesses of Living End is it's grave dependency and its completely scoop to a resolved survival or to Ichorid in general.

The SB is really hard to build because I'm still not sure that the equipment route is good enough to win against graveyard hate, or maybe they should be as 7-of like in stompy builds.

Edit:
Just thought about something, what about a SB combo plan with leyline + helm ?

[ScatmanX]

I guess that just Leyline would solve your problem. Guess that even a Tormord's Crypt would work agains't Ichorid.

[Waikiki]

crypts suck because of cascade. I played around with the deck and Im convinced it's stronger then the hypergenesis version. Cycle makes it consistant and it has alot of control factors. I love how the clique can put the living end back in your deck.

Also the shriekmaws+vindicates are awesome removal especially vs grave hate they side in g2 (vindicate)

[Cire]

Sorry for being MIA, finals took up most of my time.

Anyway i came back to the thread and i am pleased with all the discussion this deck has generated. Maveric's list looks really good, i like the use of the Cliques and i think they should be included as a staple in the deck. Also i must say after continuous testing i am done with SSGs, they just don't perform in such a deck. I think the deck has to be though of a control-combo deck. It is too slow to go balls to the wall, and has too much control to simply use it as protection.

Anyway from my previous list and my testing with Maveric's:


4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Architects of Will
4 Street Wraith
2 Deadshot minotaur
-18 cycling

4 Force of Will
4 Vendilion Clique
3 Shriekmaw
3 Misdirection
3 Unmask
2 Malestorm Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
-20 control

4 Violent Outburst
1 Demonic Dread
1 Living End
-6 combo

4 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Islands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
-16 lands

1st Cycling: i saw this number in maveric's drop to just 16 but i feel that this number has to be higher, there was simply too many times with 16 that i didn't have 2 cards to cycle end of opponents 2nd turn. 18 i feel is the corect number with 20 being too much.

2nd Control: Card by card:
Vendilion Clique: good find, allows to only run 1 living end, and it's a good control and beater. opponent usually kills it too avoid beats and then you just bring it back for card advantage and three flying power. excellent.
Shriekmaw: back in the deck, and doesn't disappoint, only need three though
Unmask: Again back in the deck, free discard is just fantastic great protection card and good against control and combo/ side it out against aggro...
Malestorm Pulse: so i was looking at the deck and saw i was going through rings trying to account for ardent plea and white in the deck. outside that card white was the weakest color, vindicate made it alluring but still it was annoying trying to account for white, also in this deck i think i can argue pulse is better! first the only thing that vindicate can hit that pulse can't is lands, yet the only type of decks that want to do that are tempo decks, which this is not, we are pretty slow so your opponent will usually either have a stable mana base already, or recover quickly. Two: Pulse hits cards in multiples, usually this is bad because youll hit your own goyf, ect as well. the good thing with this deck is NO ONE ELSE PLAYS YOUR CARDS, so if you do hit multiples, it'll be theirs. Also it's not white
Krosan Grip: for CB's and random stuff, with all the cycling it comes up often enough.

3rd combo: Outburst is an instant so you can living end in response to an attack, or even EOT to avoid counters. Also the dread is their instead of plea to remove white from the equation

4th lands: The mana base works well, maybe to many basics, but it does what it needs to so far, obviously for a 4c deck with 16 lands it could use improvement.

--------------

so thats my whiteless cascade-end deck.

[Maveric78f]

To start I'd like to place the reflexion on the cascade spell(s). It's closed related with the splash colours.

Ardent plea:
+ pitchable to FoW and Misdi
+ quite interesting ability, especially when we need to attack with a single evasion creature
+ requires a single splash in the vindicate/Oring colour
- sorcery speed

Demonic Dread:
+ requires a single splash
+ pitchable to unmask
- requires a target

Violent Outburst:
+ Instant speed
- requires a double splash

My take is that ardent plea is the best, mostly because I want a single splash and demonic dread requires a target.

About the number of creatures in the yard, intuition solves the problem easily (and even cantrips).

[Waikiki]

does the "needs a target" really is a burden won't cascade just trigger?

[Carabas]

You can't play it without a target.

[rufus]

And a quick question: Is 16 lands enough?? The math comes out that with 18 lands you will draw 3 lands every 9.9 cards. This deck requires a land drop every turn for the first 3. So if you play, you should get just under 3 lands by turn 3, but of course there's always mana clumps and mana droughts. I figure the that the cycling will raise that a bit, but I don't think I feel safe running 16, especially with a mana base so susceptible to wasteland (I'm going to go 5c). Is 17 the right number to ensure a quick and consistent chance to go off, maybe 18?

(Numbers were incorrect...)

11 cards drawn, chance of at least 3 lands
with 15 is .69
with 16 is .73
with 17 is .77
with 18 is .81

12 cards drawn
with 15 is .75
with 16 is .79
with 17 is .83
with 18 is .86

13 cards drawn
with 15 is .81
with 16 is .84
with 17 is .87
with 18 is .90

Draw your own conclusions.

[Cire]

@ Maveric:

Ardent Plea also has a downside of:

- You can only play 4 cascade spells (4 ardent pleas) without going 5 colors, while with violent outburst and demonic dread you can play up to 8 cascade spells and stay within 4 colors.

- I personally feel 4 cascade spells is too little so thats why i choose the outburst/demonic cascade spells, i'm actually looking for one more spot to fit in another dread.

@ Rufus:

you usually have
7 cards to start with
2 to 3 due to draw steps
2 to 3 due to cycling
by turn 3 so you usually have
11 to 13 cards in hand by turn 3, so if you can what the math with 12 and 13 cards?

thanks

[raestlyn]

Would Forbidden Orchard be extremely bad in the deck? It will give you the colored mana you need, and gives a target to Demonic Dread. That way you could play more Dreads.

Or alternatively play one or 2 manlands like Mishra's Factory or Nexus. They will atleast chump block opponent if you are against a creature rush.

[Scrabble]

Would Forbidden Orchard be extremely bad in the deck? It will give you the colored mana you need, and gives a target to Demonic Dread. That way you could play more Dreads.

Or alternatively play one or 2 manlands like Mishra's Factory or Nexus. They will atleast chump block opponent if you are against a creature rush.

I'm using the orchards in the 5c mana base. If going off on turn three and you're on the play, they hit you for just 1 damage. I'm not using the dreads at the moment, I don't know if there's enough creatures to justify them over the Outbursts. Having a cascade spell that is pitchable to Unmask is pretty nice though (which is why I run 4 ardent pleas).

I don't think the man lands are worth it. They can only be used as mana on the 3rd turn, or second w/ Shriekmaw. That, and they tie up the mana base. Against aggro, I think the best bet is to cycle early, and try and hit a living end quickly before you die, then have counter back-up for the counter attack. The factories seem too slow and tie up the mana too much. Besides, if you block a creature, they're just going to get it back once you living end.

[Maveric78f]

Would Forbidden Orchard be extremely bad in the deck? It will give you the colored mana you need, and gives a target to Demonic Dread. That way you could play more Dreads.

Or alternatively play one or 2 manlands like Mishra's Factory or Nexus. They will atleast chump block opponent if you are against a creature rush.

This version is more controlish than most other versions (especially the hypergenesis one). The fact is that Living end imposes us to cycle several times before being playing the cycling spell. This takes 2 or 3 turns. Then the 3rd or 4th turn, we can try to resolve Living End. In legacy, comboing on turn 4 cannot be done without a strong control plan.

Forbidden Orchard is completely anti-control, and clearly does not fit the deck imho. Mishra or Nexus can't be used for cycling, require 4 lands to combo and their chumpblocking ability is very weak. Demonic Dread can still be used though, since most decks play early creatures. However, I prefer to play intuition for redundancy because it does everything in addition to tutoring Plea, it counters, it searches for creatures, for a solution. It even pitches to FoW and Misdi.

@Cire&Rufus
The best way to compute the maths here is to consider the cyclers as invisible cards, in order to know what are the odds for drawing a control element or a kill. I did that partially some posts ago:

First thing to be aware-of: 16 cyclers means basically a deck with 44 cards. 16 lands in that deck is almost equivallent to 22 lands. Moreover by fetching -or not-, you can control quite reasonably your land count. At least you can change the odds. "8 permissions in a 44-cards decks" means also almost 11 permissions. And finally, "4 pleas in a 44 cards deck" means that you have 66% chance to draw one by turn 3 (after seeing 10 non-cycling cards), "4 pleas + 3 intuition in a 44 cards decks" means that you have 86% chance to find plea by turn 4. The only bad point is that you have 23% of chance to draw Living End. For my case, it did not change my point in not playing 2 copies, because Vendilion Clique is really good, even when we don't have Living End in hand.

If you want to compute the probabilities of drawing 1, 2, 3, and more cyclers before turn 3. Then it's a bit more complicated. Maybe the best way to approximate it is to consider that all the 10+ cards drawn events are independent. It gives with 16 cyclers (as in my build) an average of 3.3 cyclers drawn after 9 natural draws. With 20 cyclers (as in Cire's build), the average is: 4.5 cyclers. Actually the general formula is very simple with this implification:
nbcyclersdrawn(nbcyclers, nbnaturaldraws) = nbnaturaldraws*nbcyclers/(60-nbcyclers)

My philosophy about the cyclers draws is that, if we don't draw cyclers, then we probably have a very controlish hand that will give me time to find cyclers, with intuition for instance. When I have only cyclers in hand, I have a similar approach. I know that they will cycle into some business spells. That's why I consider that we can easily mulligan when we have 3*plea in first hand, or when we have the Living End singleton.

Something cool about the deck is that the combo never does card disadvantage.

[Maveric78f]

A small study in order to up the thread.

The funniest thing in the deck is its curve. Beware chalice@5 or EE@5:
0: _________________ (17) (16 lands + Living End)
1: (0)
2: (0)
3: ____________ (15)
4: ____ (4)
5: ___________________________ (24)

The average is 3.02 CC.

Actually the real curve is much better:
0: ____________________________ (28: lands, FoW/Midi, SW)
1: _______________ (12: hybrid mana cycling creatures)
2: ____ (4: Shriekmaw)
3: ____________ (15: the 3CC cards)
4: _ (1 : Living End)

Not that great neither, that's why not having 3 lands at turn 3 is a small disaster.

In order to ensure this more reliably (even if it was quite reliable with my sollid manabase), I consider playing -1 land -1 vindicate (moved in SB) +2 eternal dragon.

I'm also more and more pissed off by drawing Living End, so that I start considering back -1 Vendilion Clique +1 Living End. The fact that Vendilion Clique is a legend is also an argument in favor of playing only 3 of them.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm also more and more pissed off by drawing Living End, so that I start considering back -1 Vendilion Clique +1 Living End. The fact that Vendilion Clique is a legend is also an argument in favor of playing only 3 of them.

Isn't the whole point of the clique to just be able to use his CiP ability? Even if he dies, when you cascade end you're going to get his ability twice, and thus are able to neuter any removal the oppo might have waiting to stop your combo. Granted you absolutely need 1 if you draw into your Living End...

[Maveric78f]

Isn't the whole point of the clique to just be able to use his CiP ability? Even if he dies, when you cascade end you're going to get his ability twice, and thus are able to neuter any removal the oppo might have waiting to stop your combo. Granted you absolutely need 1 if you draw into your Living End...

Sorry, I don't get your point. Oh yeah I got it. You're reacting to the legendary part. You think that Clique's only point is to get a card in my hand back to the library or acts like a protection. Well, that's not completely true. I quite often win with Clique by beating my opponent. Actually the role of Clique is manyfold:
- cycling living end and put it back in the library
- scrying at oppo's hand and remove an annoying card (WoG, trickbind, stifle)
- test counterbalance trigger (when my opponent is full tap)
- make the counterspell battle happen 1 turn before comboing.
- have an evasive beater without comboing
- quite often too it makes a target for my opponent's STP that I can misdirect to his own creatures. Sooooo nice.

Cutting it may be a wrong move, but I really don't know what to cut.

[gustha]

Hi everyone!
I'm atm testing just in my spare time cascade hypergenesis, with mixed results... my question to the cascade end approach is: what if they counter your lonely living end? Don't you need one more? Also, it seems to me that the first tormod annulls the deck as well. (Yeah, I'm just a little skeptic! Do your best! :tongue: )

[Maveric78f]

Hi everyone!
I'm atm testing just in my spare time cascade hypergenesis, with mixed results... my question to the cascade end approach is: what if they counter your lonely living end? Don't you need one more? Also, it seems to me that the first tormod annulls the deck as well. (Yeah, I'm just a little skeptic! Do your best! :tongue: )

If you play wisely, you don't get your lonely living end coutnered. Against grave hate, we play vindicate. Alternatively, we can play ardent plea (and thus living end) and leave 2 manas open. The opponent will have to crack its gravehate (tormod or relic) in resp. After the resolution of the crack, you can discard/cycle at instant speed you creatures.

The main thing to get is that the combo never does card disadvantage, so that you can see it as a instant win when it works and when it fails, you can just keep playing your 4CC or 5CC creatures and win in beatdown/hardcast mode.

[rufus]

@Cire&Rufus
The best way to compute the maths here is to consider the cyclers as invisible cards, in order to know what are the odds for drawing a control element or a kill. I did that partially some posts ago:
...
If you want to compute the probabilities of drawing 1, 2, 3, and more cyclers before turn 3. Then it's a bit more complicated. Maybe the best way to approximate it is to consider that all the 10+ cards drawn events are independent. It gives with 16 cyclers (as in my build) an average of 3.3 cyclers drawn after 9 natural draws. With 20 cyclers (as in Cire's build), the average is: 4.5 cyclers. Actually the general formula is very simple with this implification:
nbcyclersdrawn(nbcyclers, nbnaturaldraws) = nbnaturaldraws*nbcyclers/(60-nbcyclers)

It's not that hard to calculate the exact probabilities. The chance to draw exactly n cyclers in m cards of a d card deck which contains c cyclers is:
(c choose n) * (d-c choose m-n) / (d choose m)
c! * (d-c)! * m! * (d-m)! / (n! * (c-n)! * (m-n)! * (d-c-m+n)! * d!)

[Maveric78f]

It's not that hard to calculate the exact probabilities. The chance to draw exactly n cyclers in m cards of a d card deck which contains c cyclers is:
(c choose n) * (d-c choose m-n) / (d choose m)
c! * (d-c)! * m! * (d-m)! / (n! * (c-n)! * (m-n)! * (d-c-m+n)! * d!)

As far as I understand your rough formula, the problem is that you don't take into account the cyclers among the cards drawn with the cyclers, if you follow what I mean...

The formula you gave is just the one I used to compute the chance of drawing at least 1 FoW or Misdi in a deck of d=44 cards (because of 16 cyclers), with c=8 (number of FoWs + Misdi) after m=9 "natural draws".

[rufus]

Hi everyone!
I'm atm testing just in my spare time cascade hypergenesis, with mixed results... my question to the cascade end approach is: what if they counter your lonely living end? Don't you need one more? Also, it seems to me that the first tormod annulls the deck as well. (Yeah, I'm just a little skeptic! Do your best! :tongue: )

You can hardcast the critters in the deck, and simply swing. It's not the greatest plan, but it will certainly get around GY hate.

You can (and probably should) play grips in the sideboard. There's a lot of nasty GY hate out there that can affect you, and grip will nicely answer Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, or Lleyline of the Void. For crypt and relic, the deck could also cycle cards into the GY after the crypt effect, but before Living End resolves.

Maveric's list does also play a relatively heavy protection suite with Misdirection, Unmask, Vendillion Clique and FoW, which all help Living End go off.

[gustha]

Yeah, i'm testing the list with full permission (but only 3x clique). It just seems to me it's a bit slow to be a combo deck, but maybe it's not a combo deck, just an aggrocontrol with some combo splash. Have someone considered the possibility of a 4cc deck with bloodbraider elf as additional combo starter? I'm trying something, but it seems a little unstable...

[Phoenix Ignition]

Yeah, i'm testing the list with full permission (but only 3x clique). It just seems to me it's a bit slow to be a combo deck, but maybe it's not a combo deck, just an aggrocontrol with some combo splash. Have someone considered the possibility of a 4cc deck with bloodbraider elf as additional combo starter? I'm trying something, but it seems a little unstable...

But Bloodbraid Elf dies as soon as you successfully cascade. Seems pretty terrible.

[Maveric78f]

But Bloodbraid Elf dies as soon as you successfully cascade. Seems pretty terrible.

Not exactly, since cascade triggers while the spell is on the stack. But I don't see a single reason for wanting to forbid 3CC spells in the deck. Vindicate, intuition, vendilion Clique. Come on...

[rufus]

As far as I understand your rough formula, the problem is that you don't take into account the cyclers among the cards drawn with the cyclers, if you follow what I mean...

That's correct. There's a non-zero cost associated with cycling, and you don't always get to see the deeper cards when making a decision -- the most important example is probably the initial mulligan.