G/B Kavu Predator False Cure deck help

[Cane818]

Hello I was just wondering if anyone could help me with tuning this deck.

Lands
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kavu Predator
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant

Spells
2 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 False Cure
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
3 Reverent Silence
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Compost
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
4 Vexing Shusher

I just feel like i am forgetting something.
Thank you.

[Dark_Cynic87]

A card I never see used in this is StP. It's beautiful to swords an opposing goyf/dreadnought after a False Cure. Swords on a Dreadnought is 12 lifeloss for (W) at instant speed. That's nuts. I think Cabal Therapy isn't what it used to be, I would prefer Duresses over them. I think your creature base is unfocused, also. Why mongrels? Also, I think the 4th Reverent Silence would benefit you more than several of your other choices.

2x Goyf, but 4x Mongrel. I'm at a loss. Also, Confidant in a list running Cutters, R. Silences and Invigorates without Top. On top of that there's only 2. I feel that if you run Bob, the slots are wasted unless you run a minimum of 3, and the correct number most of the time would of course be 4. You have to understand that between CB and Spell Snare, it most of the time won't resolve other than turn 2, and then if it does, it eats the first removal spell they find.

If I were to do anything, I'd turn the Bobs into Goyfs, and then drop the Mongrels for better options, like the 4th Reverent Silence, drop the 2 land grants and another 3 landsland.

Quirion Ranger is also old news, as it's only good as a turn 2 drop. Anything later and it's outpowered and outdone in every way.

It's my opinion that blue is probably going to be needed in this list. It's how I like to play, I like shuffle effects and cantrips, they always serve me well. I see no way around playing more lands. They are important. Land Grants suck in anything not 9-land stompy and SI/QSI. It just gives them too many opportunities to screw you over early.

Blue gives you access to:

Brainstorm

Ponder

Bounce (in general, there are lots of good bounce spells. I recommend Rushing River and/or Chain of Vapor as it allows you to replay your free creatures and win that turn just for one blue mana and a land sac if you want to do it to multiple cutters).

Intuition--Grab anything, but mostly False Cure

Mystical Tutor--Grabs False Cure (Top works great with Mystical Tutor, allowing for a 2-piece blue Demonic Tutor; Top is also a God in the control matchup as it allows you to continue cantripping and choosing your draws without having to fight through CB.)

I like swords, but blue just seems to have more options than white.

I'd try to make your list more focused with some of the stuff mentioned above.

Pce,

--DC

[keys]

I just feel like i am forgetting something.
Thank you.

Armistice.

You're welcome.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Don't use Armistice. It's too expensive both to cast and to activate, plus white doesn't lend itself to the idea. In theory it works, but the cards just aren't fast enough.

The only thing I'd use from white, as I mentioned before, is stp. It can be used to kill your opponent via False Cure as an added bonus to it's spot removal, and in a pinch can get you hella-extra life with a Kavu Predator if you have comboed once nonlethally and need the extra life to get to the point of where you can try again.

I like Mystical Tutor and Top, but Intuition may be the best route to go. There's also Reclaim to go along with Intuition/Top to get back anything you want

Intuition pile:
False Cure
False Cure
Reclaim

With a Top on the table, it only costs you G more and you can Intuition again for the same pile since you only grabbed 2x Cures. You might look into Summoner's Pact also.

which gets you at least one False Cure no matter how you cut it. Eternal Witness would be a thought also, but it's so costly at 1GG that it's probably not worth it.

With blue you also are opened up to counterspells, mana leak probably being the best, possibly Daze, Force of Will is probably out of the question as I don't see you being able to run the required 14 blue spells without weakening your combo for the cards you would have to remove to fit in the blue.

Just my thoughts.

Pce,

--DC

[BullBar]

1) The deck needs the explosive manabase - the Petals and ESGs - to race outta the gates and combo fast, or at least begin the smackdown a la 12land stompy. Running a more conventional manabase is too much tempo loss, and testing has shown a sharp decrease in win percentage - particularly against other combo decks.

2) Splashing a third or even forth colour as suggested is nigh impossible with this manabase.

3) Land Grant is actually quite bad in this deck, far worse that a stompy aggro deck. It lets opponents know exactly what you are up to, which spell to counter, to stay open on the Swords2P etc. A fringe deck like this can mise a lot of wins off the rogue factor, Land Grant spoils that horribly.

4) Running Intuition would be quite counter-intuitive. All it will do is slow the deck down. Robert Smith (as it's know in these parts) wants to combo on turn 2 one way or another, Intuition will get in the way of that. Casting a 3 cc spell reliably with this manabase is a ridiculous proposition.

5) Quirion Ranger is actually quite vital. The +1 mana is essential, as is dodging Wastelands. Untapping big Kavu and Goyfs wins races vs other aggro too. The ranger is also a part of some turn 2 kills- we need as many different ways to do that as possible.

Here is a fairly tuned list. It's been stable for around a year.

3 x Quirion Ranger
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Kavu Predator
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide
4 x Skyshroud Cutter

4 x False Cure
3 x Reverent Silence
4 x Invigorate
2 x Might of Old Krosa
4 x Berserk
4 x Thoughtseize

4 x Lotus Petal
4 x Bayou
3 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Windswept Heath
1 x Overgrown Tomb
1 x Forest

Common sideboard cards include Cabal Therapy, Xantid Swarm, Crumble, Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Deathmark, Avoid Fate, Compost and Pithing Needle.

[DrJones]

To Dark_Cynic87: The problem with your suggestions is that this backbone aims to kill on turn 2-3 and at its current configuration it's pretty stable. Adding a third color has been tested, both to try Swords to Plowshares and Fling, but with a deck so light on lands, it loses more than it gains (except in the mirror, in which swords to plowshares wins single-handed).
Also, slowing the strategy to use top, intuition and counterspells isn't adding stability to a deck which is already pretty stable, but making relevant a lot of the cards in your opponents' decks (that they hadn't time to cast before), and in turn making you sacrifice slots in your deck for cards to defend you from them.

Now, the reason this build of the deck runs so few lands is that it only requires drawing cards to combo. That's why it doesn't run a single tutor. The less lands in the deck, the more threats/combo pieces you draw. The only reason to run Dark Confidant with so many costly spells is because he is a beater, draws you cards, and the game isn't going to last more than two turns anyways to make his drawback relevant.

With Bullbar I agree that Land Grant is very bad in the deck. The only reason I would have to run them now is that they are cheaper to buy than saclands. Also, Tarmogoyf isn't even good in this deck. Hell, Wild Mongrel isn't a perfect suit either, but at least it allows for turn-2 kills, which Tarmogoyf doesn't. All it does for now is to provide another huge body for cheap that becomes relevant only if the game goes for too long, but that is more of a Plan C than the main focus of the deck. Still good enough to play as a last pick, but not as 4-of. Heh.

After testing and discarding Aether Vial, I'm now trying up to 2 Rite of Consumption in the deck (more isn' worth it). I'm still waiting for magic 2010: Oddysey 2, to see if apart of Kahmal and Wild Mongrel we get a set of Duals that give life to the opponent. I still don't run discard in my build, but that's just me.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'll post my list when I get it done. It's a largely different aspect of the build and I believe it to be strictly superior. I've learned a lot about combos in general having played DDFT, ANT, TES, Spring Tide, Painter combo, The Cure, and even some other compact combos with Stax to know that you can take one idea many different directions. It's my opinion that when building a combo deck (read: wins all in one turn), you must first plan for the most difficult matchup: Control.

That's what screws up most combo strategies, and I have a list I'm working on currently that addresses the control matchup first and foremost, leaving the aggro and mirror (by mirror, I mean combo) matchup for later.

[DrJones]

Hey, Dark_Cynic87, I naturally welcome your attempt to take another direction with the deck, but I'm not sure if you are taking into account that unlike TES, Painter, and the other examples you gave, The Cure is an Aggro/Combo deck and I would venture to say its more of the primer than the latter. I say so, because in my experience control decks have never been a problem to me, and on the other hand, I have been troubled more than once by decks like 43 lands that ironically are thought to be an autoloss against combo.
It's quite puzzling, really. And it's not meant in an offensive way, more akin to unexpected. As a fellow deckbuilder, I'm open to learn the design theories of other masters.

[BullBar]

The Cure is an Aggro/Combo deck...

Quoted for truthery. Indeed, Berserk is more of a 'combo peice' that False Cure! This is why the Goyfs have made their inevitable way into my list, it's an aggro deck. So many times your Kavu will be killed, your False Cure get countered (or neither drawn!), and you have to do things the hard way. As much as I love the precarious lols of Quirion Ranger and Elvish Spirit Guide beatdown (with hardcast Skyhroud Cutters for additional hilarity), I had to admit - they could use a bit of help. Often the False Cure combo doesn't do lethal damage as well - sometimes a few life spells got used on a Kavu which got plowed and when the Cure comes along it has to work with scraps, and act like a burn spell over the top (weirdest Sligh deck ever!). A bit of creature damage here and there allow the deck to win these close games.


Wild Mongrel isn't a perfect suit either, but at least it allows for turn-2 kills, which Tarmogoyf doesn't.

The goyf actually can kill on turn 2. Consider the following...

Turn 1 Fetchland, Lotus Petal, Tarmogoyf

Turn 2 Land, either Elvish Spirit Guide or another Petal, Might of Old Krosa, Berserk, Berserk hits for 28

or

Turn 2 Land, Invigorate, Berserk, Berserk does too, and needs 1 less card.

Turn 2 Land, Invigorate, Might of Old Krosa, Berserk hits for 22, but since they gained 3 life it's only lethal if they used a 1st turn fetch or painland.

There are others involving Tarmogoyf combat damage and False Cure combo over the top.

So, what's your funniest Turn 2 win? I've gotten there twice in tournaments with a lethal Quirion Ranger lol.

[DrJones]

The goyf actually can kill on turn 2. Consider the following...

Turn 1 Fetchland, Lotus Petal, Tarmogoyf
Turn 2 Land, either Elvish Spirit Guide or another Petal, Might of Old Krosa, Berserk, Berserk hits for 28
or
Turn 2 Land, Invigorate, Berserk, Berserk does too, and needs 1 less card.These two aren't good examples to show how Tarmogoyf enables 2nd turn kills. It's more obvious when you replace Goyf by Grizzly Bears.


Turn 2 Land, Invigorate, Might of Old Krosa, Berserk hits for 22, but since they gained 3 life it's only lethal if they used a 1st turn fetch or painland.This one, though usually good enough, doesn't actually qualify as a 2nd turn kill. That's why I said Tarmogoyf doesn't enable by itself 2nd turn kills. Now, let's replace Tarmogoyf by Wild Mongrel in this example. If you go first, you are left with 1 card that allows Berserk to hit for 22, but if you go second, you have one more so Mongrel hits for 24!

Now, here's another example, which doesn't even require a 2nd turn land, but also going second:

Turn 1. Land + petal/esg, Mongrel, Go.
Turn 2. Invigorate, Invigorate, discard 3 cards, berserk = 26 damage.

This one cannot be done by Tarmogoyf no matter how much he tries. Note also, how this deck doesn't mind going second because many times that means it kills a turn faster. Mongrel also has cute sinergy with Quirion Ranger returning unneeded lands to your hand so that he can deal the final strike.

By the way, I'm considering scrapping Tarmogoyf and try the new leech from Alara Reborn, which is cheaper and might work better. That's a testament of how crazy this deck is, when Tarmogoyf isn't good enough!


So, what's your funniest Turn 2 win? I've gotten there twice in tournaments with a lethal Quirion Ranger lol.I'll try to reply this one later, as I have to go now.

[Cane818]

I thought about the leech as well, but i haven't tried out any cards from the set till it comes out.

[BullBar]

These two aren't good examples to show how Tarmogoyf enables 2nd turn kills. It's more obvious when you replace Goyf by Grizzly Bears.

Absolutely. It's pretty much the same with the mongrel (or the leech really). You were correct as well when you described it as plan C. For that it's really the best of the 3, having the most solid single card strategy. For example, when you are on the ropes vs discard, ripping a goyf off the top trumps a Mongrel, and I've found this style of deck sometimes problematic (of course post board if you manage a 1st turn Compost, you do a little fistpump and win tho).

The Goyfs, Thoughseize, Might of old Krosa - they are not the core cards of this deck. Use what you want, or what you have, or the funniest shit yuo can think of. This deck is meant to be just for lols really, so go nuts. Used Seeds of Innocence yet? You'll never cast it and a Cure in the same turn, but the Kavu loves a bit of it!