Efreet Errata

[freakish777]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGMIR/frenetic_efreet.jpg

Oracle text (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=false&multiverseid=3535)

The power level errata on this guy is gone. Making him combo with:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGODY/chance_encounter.jpg

Here's the list:

4 Efreet
4 Chance Encounter

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT

4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
2 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Volcanic Island
7 Blue Fetches
1 Red Fetch
1 Mountain
6 Island

which leaves you with a whopping 7 metagame slots!

Match-ups:

Fluctuator - They have to resolve Fluctuator, and they have a really hard time doing that against FoW, Daze, Spell Snare and Counterbalance.

Cavius Stompy - You can't lose, CounterTop locks them out, and then you combo them.

Pitch World - They don't actually have an answers to your permanents if they resolve (if they try to Contagion your Efreet you flip coins in response until he phases out, they don't have Enchantment removal), so I'm not sure how they plan on winning.

Kavu Cure - They have to False Cure you for all the life. If they attack with Kavu, you just block and then phase your guy out for free.

Nourishing Lich - I'm not sure you can win this one sadly. I mean, they just resolve Lich (it doesn't cost 2, which would be better since it'd play into Spell Snare then) so fast and then outdraw you (your cantrips are so bad compared to drawing 16 cards).


If you can't resolve Chance Encounter, don't forget that Efreet is an aggressively costed 2 power flyer that can't die (except to split second removal), also, remember to retain priority upon resolution of Chance Encounter so as to play around Trickbind on your Efreet (since you can activate 5 million times while you maintain priority upon resolution of Chance Encounter).

[Forbiddian]

Rules question:

Frenetic Efreet has a 50% chance to die to removal regardless, right?

[freakish777]

Rules question:

Frenetic Efreet has a 50% chance to die to removal regardless, right?


No, and here's why (from the Comp rules):

217.8a Permanents that phase out are placed in the phased-out zone. (See rule 502.15, "Phasing.")

217.8c Phased-out objects are not in play, so they do not count as tapped or untapped, nor are they controlled by anyone. However, an object in this zone "remembers" the state of the permanent as it phased out and returns to play in the same state as when it left. (See rule 502.15, "Phasing.")

302.1. First, all permanents with phasing that the active player controls phase out, and all phased-out objects that the active player controlled when they phased out simultaneously phase in (this game action doesn't use the stack). See rule 217.8, "Phased Out," and rule 502.15, "Phasing."

502.15. Phasing

502.15a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step.

502.15b During each player's untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all permanents with phasing the player controls phase out. Simultaneously, all objects that had phased out under that player's control phase in. (See rule 217.8, "Phased Out," and rule 302.1.)

502.15c If an effect causes a player to skip his or her untap step, the phasing event simply doesn't occur that turn.

502.15d Permanents phasing in or out don't trigger any comes-into-play or leaves-play abilities, and effects that modify how a permanent comes into play are ignored. Abilities and effects that specifically mention phasing can modify or trigger on these events, however. (Because no player receives priority during the untap step, any abilities triggering off of the phasing event won't go onto the stack until the upkeep step begins.)

502.15e When a permanent phases out, all damage dealt to it is removed.

502.15f A card that returns to play from the phased-out zone is considered the same permanent it was when it left. This is an exception to rule 217.1c, which stipulates that a permanent "forgets" its previous existence when it changes zones.

502.15g Effects with limited duration and delayed triggered abilities that specifically reference a permanent will be unable to further affect that permanent if it phases out. However, other effects that reference the permanent (including effects with unlimited duration) can affect the permanent when it returns to play.
Example: A creature is affected by Giant Growth and then phases out during the same turn. If the creature phases back in somehow before the turn is over, it won't get the +3/+3 bonus from the Giant Growth because its effect has a limited duration.

502.15h Phased-out cards "remember" their past histories and will return to play in the same state. They "remember" any counters they had on them, any choices made when they first came into play, whether they were flipped when they left play, and whether they were tapped or untapped when they left play. They also "remember" who controlled them when they phased out, although they may phase in under the control of a different player if a control effect with limited duration has expired.
Example: Diseased Vermin reads, in part, "At the beginning of your upkeep, Diseased Vermin deals X damage to target opponent previously dealt damage by it, where X is the number of infection counters on it." If Diseased Vermin phases out, it "remembers" how many counters it has and also which opponents it has previously damaged. When it phases back in, it will still be able to target those opponents with its upkeep-triggered ability.

502.15i When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out "indirectly." An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the card it's attached to.

502.15j If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification phased out directly (rather than phasing out along with the permanent it's attached to), then it "remembers" the permanent it was attached to and returns to play attached to that permanent. If an Aura phases in but it's no longer legal for it to be attached to the object or player it was attached to, the Aura returns to play and then is placed in its owner's graveyard. This is a state-based effect; see rule 420. If an Equipment or Fortification phases in but it's no longer legal for it to be attached to the permanent it was attached to, the Equipment or Fortification returns to play and then stays in play, not attached to anything. This is a state-based effect; see rule 420.

502.15k Permanents that phase in keep the same timestamps (see rules 418.5d and 418.5e) they had when they phased out. This doesn't change the fact that the permanents phase in simultaneously, however.

502.15m A permanent that phases in can attack or use activated abilities whose cost includes the tap symbol ({T}) or the untap symbol ({Q}) as though that permanent had haste. This applies even if that permanent phased out and phased back in the turn it came into play. The permanent remains able to do so until it changes controllers or leaves play.

502.15n A spell or ability that targets a permanent will resolve normally with respect to that permanent if the permanent phases out and back in before the spell or ability resolves.

502.15p Multiple instances of phasing on the same permanent are redundant.


408. Timing of Spells and Abilities

408.1. Timing, Priority, and the Stack

408.1a Spells and activated abilities can be played only at certain times and follow a set of rules for doing so.

408.1b Spells and activated abilities are played by players (if they choose) using a system of priority, while other kinds of abilities and effects are automatically generated by the game rules. Each time a player would get priority, all applicable state-based effects resolve first as a single event (see rule 420, "State-Based Effects"). Then, if any new state-based effects have been generated, they resolve as a single event. This process repeats until no more applicable state-based effects are generated. Then triggered abilities are added to the stack (see rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based effects or triggered abilities are generated. Then the player who would have received priority does so and may play a spell or ability, take a special action (such as playing a land), or pass, as governed by the rules for that phase or step.

408.1c The active player gets priority at the beginning of most phases and steps, after any game actions are dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step go on the stack. No player gets priority during the untap step and players usually don't get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 314.3). The player with priority may play a spell or ability, take a special action, or pass. If he or she plays a spell or ability, or takes a special action, the player again receives priority; otherwise, the next player in turn order receives priority. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the top object on the stack resolves, then the active player receives priority. If the stack is empty when all players pass in succession, the phase or step ends and the next one begins.

408.1d A player may play an instant spell or an activated ability any time he or she has priority. Spells other than instants may be played during a player's main phase, when that player has priority and the stack is empty.

408.1e When a spell is played, it goes on top of the stack. When an activated ability is played, it goes on top of the stack.


408.1h Static abilities aren't played -- they continuously affect the game. Priority doesn't apply to them. (See rule 405, "Static Abilities," rule 418, "Continuous Effects," and rule 419, "Replacement and Prevention Effects.")


409. Playing Spells and Activated Abilities

409.1. Playing a spell or activated ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the playing of a spell or ability, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the spell was played illegally; the game returns to the moment before that spell or ability was played (see rule 422, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.

409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. If a spell is being played, that card (or that copy of a card) physically moves from the zone it's in to the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and its controller is the player who played it. If an activated ability is being played, it's created on the stack as an object that's not a card. If an activated ability is being played from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. On the stack, the ability has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who played the ability. The spell or ability remains on the stack until it's countered or resolves.


409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost (as determined in rule 409.1b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {3}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to play. Because a spell's total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay {2}{B}, not {3}{B}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.

409.1i Once the steps described in 409.1a-h are completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any abilities that trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell or ability's controller had priority before playing it, he or she gets priority.

409.2. Some spells and abilities specify that one of their controller's opponents does something the controller would normally do while it's being played, such as choose a mode or choose targets. In these cases, the opponent does so when the spell or ability's controller normally would do so.

409.2a If there is more than one opponent who could make such a choice, the spell or ability's controller decides which of those opponents will make the choice.

409.2beta If at any time your legal name is Cavius the Great, you win.

409.2delta You're actually correct, I completely forgot that Efreet had that "if you lose" clause on him. Guess that would make him "too good" huh?

409.2b If the spell or ability instructs its controller and another player to do something at the same time as the spell or ability is being played, the spell's controller goes first, then the other player. This is an exception to rule 103.4.

409.3. Playing a spell or ability that alters costs won't do anything to spells and abilities that are already on the stack.

409.4. A player can't begin to play a spell or activated ability that's prohibited from being played by an effect.

409.4a If an effect allows a card that's prohibited from being played to be played face down, and the face-down spell would not be prohibited, that spell can be played face down. See rule 504, "Face-Down Spells and Permanents."




Now I know that's a lot to read through, but only through true mastery and memorization of the Rules can you become Great! After you've memorized those, you realize that Efreet's activated ability has a cost of zero, that you can pay any time! So your opponent attempts to terminate your Efreet and you can activate Efreet twice in response giving him a 75% at survival. But why go for 2 activations when you can go for 20? How about 20 million. Once he is safely phased out, you can announce to your opponent that you're going to skip the rest of the flips in the interest of saving time since you aren't trying to cheat and get the draw (but if you are, this is the perfect deck to play!), your opponent's removal spell (assuming it had a target) will be countered by state based effects for lack of a legal target. Even better though, their Wrath of God will still kill all their Kjeldoran Outpost Tokens while your Efreet will be back next turn!!!!!

I think the new deck name should probably be:

Efreet the Immortal (please don't Sudden Shock me!)

[JeroenC]

Actually, it does have 50% chance to die. You flip the coin as part of the resolution of the ability, and if it's tails, you die(well, Efreet does too). If it's heads, it phases out. In any way, the ability will continue to flip coins, but will not affect Efreet.

Also, this deck could use Seething Song.

[freakish777]

Actually, it does have 50% chance to die. You flip the coin as part of the resolution of the ability, and if it's tails, you die(well, Efreet does too). If it's heads, it phases out. In any way, the ability will continue to flip coins, but will not affect Efreet.

Also, this deck could use Seething Song.


I think you need to go through the Rules I posted one more time. :wink:


EDIT: Also, Manaclash may deserve a look...

[Ectoplasm]

But if the first flip fails, doesn't it die before the 2nd one resolves?
The combo with chance encounter is amazing though and should be a true metagame slayer, especially when put to the test against cavius stompy and pitch world.

[Forbiddian]

Edit: Nevermind, it was a troll.

Epic fail. At least Cavius's decks always worked.

[KillemallCFH]

Edit: Nevermind, it was a troll.

Epic fail. At least Cavius's decks always worked.Just to clarify, Efreet + Chance Encounter is a legitimate combo. The power level errata was just removed from Efreet, making this deck work.

[JeroenC]

I think you need to go through the Rules I posted one more time. :wink:

Actually, I don't have to do that. Each of the abilities resolve seperately, there's no way to save the Efreet from a failed flip (which doesn't stop the other flips from happening, they just don't do anything anymore).

[Forbiddian]

Just to clarify, Efreet + Chance Encounter is a legitimate combo. The power level errata was just removed from Efreet, making this deck work.

Yeah, but Efreet dies half the time, making 3/4ths of the deck discussion irrelevant.

Cavius would always misrepresent the effectiveness of his combos, but he would never go, "Nourishing Lich cannot be countered."

[freakish777]

Actually, I don't have to do that. Each of the abilities resolve seperately, there's no way to save the Efreet from a failed flip (which doesn't stop the other flips from happening, they just don't do anything anymore).


I guess you just don't want have the motivation to become truly Great.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Question for when this deck becomes super popular:

If someone is dumb enough to say "Activate efreet 1000 times" can I force them to go through with every coin flip, thus stalling out and forcing a draw or possibly a win (if I got lucky enough to beat this deck game 1 with my nourishing lich)?

[Pinder]

Yeah, but Efreet dies half the time, making 3/4ths of the deck discussion irrelevant.


For what it's worth, I think if you activate it several times in response to themselves, then even if the Efreet dies the abilities are still on the stack, and you get to flip the coins even if they do nothing. Except in this case they do something, i.e., putting a counter on Chance Encounter.

So the combo totally works. I can see this being a powerhouse, especially in Germany.

[Jak]

For what it's worth, I think if you activate it several times in response to themselves, then even if the Efreet dies the abilities are still on the stack, and you get to flip the coins even if they do nothing. Except in this case they do something, i.e., putting a counter on Chance Encounter.

So the combo totally works. I can see this being a powerhouse, especially in Germany.

Yes, the combo works, but Efreet is still vulnerable to creature hate (50% of the time). This matters if you don't have Chance Encounter in play.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Yes, but how does this deck beat a resolved Burning Tree Shaman? ...Or even worse, what if they use Doubling Season and B.T.S.? Then your combo doesn't work, because you have to take two damage each activation.

When this inevitably becomes the top deck in Legacy, I expect the price of Burning Tree Shaman to shoot up to about $50 a pop... You guys had better stock up now before Tarmogoyf number two slips you by and you're stuck having to shell out for your playset. Burning Tree Shaman is the only viable way to beat this deck... Well, besides Nourishing Lich. :tongue:

[Phoenix Ignition]

No, because you lose to SBE when there are enough counters on Encounter... It was originaly my sideboarding strategy against the deck, but now I see that I must switch to Nourishing Lich.


No, encounter wins on upkeep.

I'm quite serious, if someone is stupid enough to play this deck can I force them to flip it as many times as they said they would to get enough counters on Chance Encounter?

[JeroenC]

I think you can force them to flip until they have ten counters on the Encounter. After that, the flips have no more effect, so I'd reckon any "forced flips" after that would be considered stalling.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think you can force them to flip until they have ten counters on the Encounter. After that, the flips have no more effect, so I'd reckon any "forced flips" after that would be considered stalling.

Not true. There are plenty of cards that can remove counters from permanents, which in itself is enough of a reason to make sure you have at least 1 more counter on it than needed to win. It makes no sense that you can say "I activate his ability 500 times, oh I got 10 counters, I stop activating it."

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGSHA/medicine_runner.jpg

At least it would make there be more strategy involved than just having to play both cards of this stupidly broken combo. What a stupid errata change, I really hope it doesn't turn into flash-hulk season again. (I feel like I should say this is sarcasm in advance)

[ParkerLewis]

No, encounter wins on upkeep.

I'm quite serious, if someone is stupid enough to play this deck can I force them to flip it as many times as they said they would to get enough counters on Chance Encounter?

From a purely lawering point of view, I don't see why you couldn't.

Still, it's true for a lot of infinite combos. For example, the ones that require you to tap something that you'll return to your hand later to redo the whole thing (think elves and the like... well except elves does not go infinite because of card draw, but you get the point). You usually don't make the guy physically do the action for each instance, the point being that if you had an answer, you'd play it on the first iteration anyway.

I guess if you were trying to do actually do that in real life, it would most likely end up with a judge deciding it. And I don't like your chances here. On the other hand, I think it would be fair to ask them to actually flip the coins at least until it actually reaches the count of ten (or eleven, or twelve if he wants to be on the "safe" side) successful flips. After all, there is a slight chance he doesn't make it after a thousand flips. Yes, around 2.5 * 10^(-280), that is around 200 orders of magnitudes less than one divided by the number of particles in the universe, but it's still not zero. Plus, there is always the chance that he dies of heart attack, or something. And that at least is really significant.

[Ectoplasm]

(belgian foil)

Hahahahahahhaa

[Tao]

Question for when this deck becomes super popular:

If someone is dumb enough to say "Activate efreet 1000 times" can I force them to go through with every coin flip, thus stalling out and forcing a draw or possibly a win?

Of course you can do that! Just bring a knife to the next tourney. With that you can also force the Aluren player one round later to move 10.000 counters with his Spike Feeder.

[BullBar]

Kavu Cure - They have to False Cure you for all the life. If they attack with Kavu, you just block and then phase your guy out for free.

Oft overlooked in testing, Kavu Predator has trample.


F**k, I got my The Cure 98% pimped (belgian foil) and now I can just shove it up my ass - it is tier2 deck at best...

This makes the deck tier 1.95, you can breathe easy.

[Sigar]

I guess you just don't want have the motivation to become truly Great.

Why? He is right! You can't just save the creature for free, unless the first flip is in your favour. The two card combo works cause you can stack the flips at instant speed and you can keep flipping even though the creature dies, but you cant re-flip to save the creature if you lost the first flip.

[freakish777]

Why? He is right! You can't just save the creature for free, unless the first flip is in your favour. The two card combo works cause you can stack the flips at instant speed and you can keep flipping even though the creature dies, but you cant re-flip to save the creature if you lost the first flip.

One must read and memorize all the rules to be truly great. :wink:

[Blade]

One must read and memorize all the rules to be truly great. :wink:


409.2beta If at any time your legal name is Cavius the Great, you win.

409.2delta You're actually correct, I completely forgot that Efreet had that "if you lose" clause on him. Guess that would make him "too good" huh?


I see what you did there.

[mujadaddy]

There is a lot of sarcasm in this thread, but I have a real question --- You put you eleventy-billion activations on the stack, and only the LAST ONE (ie, the FIRST one that gets resolved) actually affects the Efreet, right? It will either get buried and not be around for the rest of the checks or it will phase out and not be around. Right?

[Malchar]

MTG the source was awesome before all this crap showed up.